1
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:15,080
Speaker 1: Mother Knows Dad starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk.

2
00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:21,079
Speaker 2: Hi.

3
00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,680
Speaker 1: Everyone welcome The Mother Knows Death. This week, we promised

4
00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,599
Speaker 1: you guys we were going to do this, so here

5
00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,400
Speaker 1: you go. We are talking about the Karen Reid case today.

6
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,320
Speaker 1: There was a Lifetime movie that has come out recently

7
00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,519
Speaker 1: called Accused the Karen Reid Story, and I know a

8
00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,680
Speaker 1: lot of people that have been following this case have

9
00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:47,000
Speaker 1: been super interested in seeing the film adaptation of this

10
00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,880
Speaker 1: crime or not crime. I guess we can go back

11
00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,920
Speaker 1: and forth. It's probably actually not a crime at least

12
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,160
Speaker 1: with her anyway. So we are going to let you

13
00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,720
Speaker 1: guys listen to an old episode that we did on

14
00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,640
Speaker 1: Karen Reid and the details of her trial, and then

15
00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,120
Speaker 1: afterwards we're going to do a review on how we

16
00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,720
Speaker 1: thought the Karen Reid story was portrayed in this Lifetime

17
00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:16,679
Speaker 1: series that just showed.

18
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:19,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're going to put a time stamp in

19
00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,280
Speaker 2: the description of the episode, So if you already listened

20
00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,880
Speaker 2: to that episode, or you want to skip that part again,

21
00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,800
Speaker 2: you could just go right to the recamp. Hi.

22
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,000
Speaker 1: Everyone welcome The Mother Knows That. We have a great

23
00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,959
Speaker 1: episode for you today. We are going to talk about

24
00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,559
Speaker 1: this shocking or not so shocking verdict in the Karen

25
00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,520
Speaker 1: Reid trial that was last week, And we're going to

26
00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,480
Speaker 1: go through this case with a fine tooth comb and

27
00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,520
Speaker 1: give you all of the details that you are dying

28
00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:47,600
Speaker 1: to know about. We know that some of you are

29
00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,520
Speaker 1: true crime experts and know all the details of this case,

30
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 1: and then we know that there's some of you that

31
00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:54,960
Speaker 1: might have heard her name on the news and don't

32
00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:56,880
Speaker 1: really know what the story is. And then there's other

33
00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,960
Speaker 1: ones that are like Karen who. So we're going to

34
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,280
Speaker 1: go through the whole case. I'm gonna ask Maria a

35
00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,240
Speaker 1: lot of questions and she's going to go through all

36
00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,320
Speaker 1: of the details, and then we're going to talk about

37
00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,640
Speaker 1: what was seen at autopsy, what my opinion is of that,

38
00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,000
Speaker 1: and then what happened at her not one, but two trials.

39
00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,560
Speaker 1: So let's get started. Read Why don't you tell them like,

40
00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,239
Speaker 1: who is Karen Reid? Where are they from? Why is

41
00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:21,600
Speaker 1: she in trouble? What happened?

42
00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:22,240
Speaker 2: All?

43
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:22,440
Speaker 1: Right?

44
00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,680
Speaker 2: So this case is just kind of all over the

45
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,239
Speaker 2: place because it's it's normal people just like us. Right,

46
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,680
Speaker 2: It's a financial analyst, who's Karen Reid? With her boyfriend,

47
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,800
Speaker 2: who's a Boston Police officer, John O'Keefe. They're in their

48
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,360
Speaker 2: early forties at the time. This occurred in twenty twenty

49
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,880
Speaker 2: two when John died. So we're gonna get more into

50
00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,880
Speaker 2: that later, but just a little background on them as

51
00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,560
Speaker 2: a couple. When they were in their early twenties, Karen

52
00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,520
Speaker 2: and John had briefly dated but broke up. Fast forward

53
00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,720
Speaker 2: to twenty twenty they reconnect on Facebook, which is funny

54
00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,000
Speaker 2: to me, this is sense of any message and start

55
00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,720
Speaker 2: dating after all those years, but they reconnect via Facebook

56
00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,679
Speaker 2: and start dating again. So they're they're in this relationship

57
00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,600
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, but according to friends and family,

58
00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,600
Speaker 2: it was pretty tumultuous and all over the place, all right.

59
00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:12,400
Speaker 1: So there's one important thing to know about John because

60
00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 1: he wasn't a typical just single guy that was in

61
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,560
Speaker 1: his forties. So do you want to tell them a

62
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:18,360
Speaker 1: little bit about that.

63
00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. So John's sister tragically passed away from cancer, and

64
00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,920
Speaker 2: then shortly after her husband died from a heart attack,

65
00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,720
Speaker 2: leaving their children to be orphans. So John was kind

66
00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,400
Speaker 2: of seen as this angel because he took custody of

67
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,360
Speaker 2: his niece and nephew and was raising them.

68
00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,160
Speaker 1: So there and they're pretty much little kids at this time,

69
00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,560
Speaker 1: So he was dating. I'm just trying to put this

70
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,320
Speaker 1: all into perspective so we could all relate to it.

71
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,520
Speaker 1: So he is dating her and has little kids that

72
00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 1: are essentially he's acting as the father for these children.

73
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,880
Speaker 1: They live at his house, and he was with her

74
00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,400
Speaker 1: for a couple of years, so she was around them.

75
00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's around them. She's seemingly pretty integrated into their life.

76
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,360
Speaker 2: I mean she definitely wasn't living there. They weren't getting married.

77
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 2: So but when you're dating somebody and you're in a

78
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,840
Speaker 2: serious relationship and you have children, I mean you're going

79
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:10,800
Speaker 2: to cross paths.

80
00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, so okay, So what happened? So they're dating and

81
00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,200
Speaker 1: they're fighting all the time. Everybody agrees with this, and like, still,

82
00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 1: that doesn't make anything suspicious because people or relationships fight

83
00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,920
Speaker 1: all the time. So what happened leading up to John's death?

84
00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,839
Speaker 2: Well, before everybody gets all like the brother and sister

85
00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,400
Speaker 2: died too, it's nothing nefarious in this case. It was

86
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,520
Speaker 2: genuine natural causes. It's not like Lori Valo where there's

87
00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,039
Speaker 2: multiple deaths in one family and we should look into

88
00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,240
Speaker 2: it like this is purely the sister had cancer, the

89
00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,560
Speaker 2: husband had a heart attack, and then her brother unfortunately

90
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,680
Speaker 2: passed away, which we're going to touch on the details

91
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,720
Speaker 2: leading up until John's death, they weren't having the best relationship.

92
00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,840
Speaker 2: It was tumultuous and all over the place. They had

93
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 2: recently gone on a trip to Aruba, and according to

94
00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,080
Speaker 2: friends who were on the trip, had innocently hugged a

95
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,880
Speaker 2: female friend on the trip, which sent Karen into a

96
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,839
Speaker 2: total jealous rage and tizzy and she did not like

97
00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,559
Speaker 2: that at all. And then the day before his death,

98
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,240
Speaker 2: we see all these text messages coming out where they

99
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,279
Speaker 2: were seemingly having a fight. She had told him, you

100
00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,039
Speaker 2: really hurt me this time, and he replied, things haven't

101
00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,600
Speaker 2: been great between us for a while. Ever, consider that,

102
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,760
Speaker 2: so throughout the day she proceeds to continue texting him

103
00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,680
Speaker 2: and calling him, but he keeps saying it's not a

104
00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,880
Speaker 2: good time, and later on that doesn't look so great

105
00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,120
Speaker 2: for her. But I don't think in most cases, when

106
00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,400
Speaker 2: you're having a fight with your significant other that you're

107
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,880
Speaker 2: gonna that you think that's gonna come up at your

108
00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,440
Speaker 2: trial and not look great for you.

109
00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,360
Speaker 1: God, I know right, the reading of the text messages

110
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,159
Speaker 1: in all of these cases, you're just like, nobody ever

111
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,599
Speaker 1: thinks that that's going to happen to them, of course,

112
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:52,040
Speaker 1: so that's always embarrassing. I mean, think about if somebody

113
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,279
Speaker 1: just took your phone and started reading your text messages,

114
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,880
Speaker 1: especially with your your partner or your husband, wife, whatever.

115
00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:00,359
Speaker 1: It's a little weird.

116
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:02,520
Speaker 2: It is weird. And I said that with the Justin

117
00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,120
Speaker 2: Baldonian Blake Lively case when he was trying to subpoena

118
00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,159
Speaker 2: Blake Lass Oh Ryan Meynolds text.

119
00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,240
Speaker 1: No, he just wanted that apparently he can get he

120
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,040
Speaker 1: could get Taylor Swift and Blake Lively's text messages, which is,

121
00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 1: oh my god, if they get released, that's gonna be

122
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,680
Speaker 1: some juicy shit right there. But all right, so let's

123
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,120
Speaker 1: get back to this. So these text messages she's sending,

124
00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,560
Speaker 1: she's just kind of like you're an asshole, basically, like

125
00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,960
Speaker 1: back and forth, and they're fighting back and forth. So

126
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,640
Speaker 1: at some point, even though he's not taking her calls

127
00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,880
Speaker 1: like like anybody else, they decide to like make up

128
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,120
Speaker 1: and they're going to hang out later.

129
00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's something in the details of this case. I'm

130
00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,200
Speaker 2: kind of confused about what happened between the All day.

131
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,920
Speaker 1: Long, everybody that fights like it's just like that's what happens.

132
00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,159
Speaker 2: So around nine o'clock, John's out with some friends, so

133
00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,320
Speaker 2: some of the key players in this case. He meets

134
00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,040
Speaker 2: up at the bar with his friend Brian Albert, who's

135
00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,080
Speaker 2: a former Boston police officer, Brian's wife Nicole, her sister

136
00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,040
Speaker 2: Jennifer McCabe, and a friend Brian Higgins, who's an ATF agent.

137
00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,280
Speaker 2: So they're all gonna come up later in this trial,

138
00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,320
Speaker 2: but those are the people that are there at the

139
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,080
Speaker 2: bar with them this night. Karen meets up with John

140
00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,840
Speaker 2: and the friends at the bar on CCTV. You can

141
00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,160
Speaker 2: see them having a pretty good time. Everybody's drinking. It's

142
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,640
Speaker 2: the middle of a snowstorm, so everybody's probably awful work

143
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,480
Speaker 2: and just enjoying their night. So then we get to

144
00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,440
Speaker 2: midnight and the Alberts invite everyone back to their home.

145
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,920
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's summarize where we're at right now. So

146
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,400
Speaker 1: we have Karen and her cop boyfriend are going back

147
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,720
Speaker 1: to the house of a retired cop and his wife

148
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,840
Speaker 1: and her sister, and this other guy, Brian is anyone.

149
00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,720
Speaker 1: So they're going in separate cars. Correct, Yeah, Okay.

150
00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,320
Speaker 2: So John teen leaving the bar with a glass in

151
00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,840
Speaker 2: his hand, which is important because that's gonna come up later.

152
00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,680
Speaker 2: But he has a glass from the bar and he

153
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,520
Speaker 2: gets into Karen's car. So round twelve, you're allowed to

154
00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,280
Speaker 2: do I thought you weren't allowed to do that.

155
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,360
Speaker 1: I mean it's stealing, but like no, but I mean,

156
00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,119
Speaker 1: just in Vegas you're allowed to walk around with a drink.

157
00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,120
Speaker 1: But that's like the only place in America that you

158
00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:17,840
Speaker 1: could do that, right.

159
00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,720
Speaker 2: You're allowed to drink and drive. It doesn't say it before.

160
00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,680
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'm not saying that. I'm just saying

161
00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 1: it's like kind of unusual to leave a bar with

162
00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,560
Speaker 1: the drink. Still, yeah, but that's what drunk people do. Okay.

163
00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,560
Speaker 2: So we're only mentioning that part because it comes up later.

164
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,360
Speaker 2: So at twelve fifteen, John texs Jennifer McCabe asking for

165
00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 2: the address. Ten minutes later, john cell phone data then

166
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,520
Speaker 2: pings him at the house, and at that point Karen

167
00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,760
Speaker 2: claims they did leave the bar and go to the

168
00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,600
Speaker 2: Albert's home. But at that point she had asked if

169
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,720
Speaker 2: it asked John if he could go up to the

170
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,600
Speaker 2: door and make sure it was okay they were there,

171
00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,400
Speaker 2: because I don't think she was on that friendly of

172
00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,040
Speaker 2: terms with the Alberts, so she wanted this is according

173
00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,000
Speaker 2: to Karen, that she wanted to make sure it was

174
00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,160
Speaker 2: okay they were there all right.

175
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:04,480
Speaker 1: So in my opinion, and like my opinion is whatever,

176
00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,000
Speaker 1: But if I'm at the bar and someone invites me

177
00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,040
Speaker 1: to their house afterwards, we're gonna get in the car

178
00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,560
Speaker 1: and we're going to drive, and then whoever's driving is

179
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,320
Speaker 1: going to park the car, and it will always be

180
00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:19,800
Speaker 1: gay because I don't I don't drive, right, So okay,

181
00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,600
Speaker 1: Gay parks the car. We both get out. I get

182
00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,079
Speaker 1: out of my side, he gets out his side, and

183
00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,040
Speaker 1: then we go to the house. Like, to me, it's

184
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,400
Speaker 1: just very unusual for me to be like, can you

185
00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,760
Speaker 1: just like ass because they're my age, right, but to

186
00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,440
Speaker 1: be like can you just can make sure it's okay

187
00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:34,440
Speaker 1: at the party.

188
00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,240
Speaker 2: But think about it, they're fighting all the time.

189
00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:38,760
Speaker 1: Well, and there's friends, they're all drunk.

190
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,600
Speaker 2: They're all drunk. His friends probably don't like her. They

191
00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:46,480
Speaker 2: might know somebody might have mentioned that they were fighting

192
00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,360
Speaker 2: earlier that day and they were like, why are you

193
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,400
Speaker 2: bringing your naggy girlfriend out to drink. It's just it.

194
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,079
Speaker 1: You have to agree that this is just kind of

195
00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,040
Speaker 1: bizarre behavior for people that are almost fifty years old.

196
00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,560
Speaker 2: I think you think it is because you don't drink,

197
00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,760
Speaker 2: but I think this is an average night out, and

198
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,920
Speaker 2: really it is pretty standard really for people that drink. Like,

199
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,640
Speaker 2: obviously you should not be drinking and driving, but I

200
00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,520
Speaker 2: think a lot of people go out and then they

201
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,679
Speaker 2: want to continue their night at somebody's house. Okay, So

202
00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,840
Speaker 2: so you're saying that part's not weird. I think that

203
00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,520
Speaker 2: part's a little weird. But whatever, So continue what happened.

204
00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,000
Speaker 2: So she says that he got out of the car.

205
00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,200
Speaker 2: So Karen claims they pulled up to the house, John

206
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,199
Speaker 2: got out of the car and was supposed to go

207
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:31,839
Speaker 2: knock on the door and make sure it was okay

208
00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,720
Speaker 2: they were there, and then signal back to her that

209
00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,160
Speaker 2: it was okay for them, and then she would come inside.

210
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,280
Speaker 2: So she says she's sitting in her car scrolling on

211
00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,640
Speaker 2: the phone, and she waited about ten to fifteen minutes

212
00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,360
Speaker 2: and she never heard anything back from him. So she

213
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,720
Speaker 2: got really pissed because she had to pee really bad,

214
00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,480
Speaker 2: and she drove back to his house, which was only

215
00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,440
Speaker 2: like a couple minutes down the road, and then she

216
00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,400
Speaker 2: starts leaving him these incredibly angry voicemails.

217
00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,200
Speaker 1: Well because according to her, she thinks that he went

218
00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,920
Speaker 1: inside and was like f that broad like and just

219
00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,120
Speaker 1: kept partying and didn't come back to get her.

220
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so think, so let's stop and reevaluate, like what's

221
00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,640
Speaker 2: happening so far. So the whole day before they're arguing

222
00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,600
Speaker 2: via text, something happens where they're fine enough to meet up,

223
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,640
Speaker 2: and then you add alcohol into the situation, and then

224
00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:20,920
Speaker 2: you add these people in the mix that maybe aren't

225
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,760
Speaker 2: all getting along. So then you're at twelve thirty six.

226
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,480
Speaker 2: At this point is when the first voicemail comes through.

227
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,400
Speaker 2: Karen leaves John a voicemail that says, I fucking hate you,

228
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,480
Speaker 2: And then a couple of minutes later, John, I'm here

229
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,760
Speaker 2: with your fucking kids and nobody knows where the fuck

230
00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,840
Speaker 2: you are, you fucking pervert. And then she says John,

231
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,679
Speaker 2: I'm going home. I cannot babysit your niece. You're fucking

232
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,200
Speaker 2: using me right now, You're fucking another girl. You're a

233
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,000
Speaker 2: fucking loser. Fuck yourself. So this is within an hour,

234
00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,240
Speaker 2: she's leaving him all of these voicemails. Oh so, at

235
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,079
Speaker 2: one thirty am, Jennifer McCabe and other friends leave the

236
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,160
Speaker 2: Albert home. They say they go home, they don't notice

237
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,400
Speaker 2: anything unusual. Well, around five am, Karen then calls Jennifer

238
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,480
Speaker 2: and says, John never came home. Did you see him? So?

239
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:08,600
Speaker 2: Then John?

240
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,240
Speaker 1: So then Karen, And you're saying, like she wasn't really

241
00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,920
Speaker 1: like great friends with this gen person.

242
00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,640
Speaker 2: No, like they were acquaintances. But okay, and maybe she

243
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,320
Speaker 2: only it wasn't her best friend. And I think she

244
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,120
Speaker 2: was probably only comfortable reaching out to her because they

245
00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:28,800
Speaker 2: had just seen each other hours before.

246
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:29,400
Speaker 1: Okay.

247
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,880
Speaker 2: So then at this point Karen calls John's friend Carrie,

248
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,040
Speaker 2: and she says John's dead. This is according to Carrie,

249
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,319
Speaker 2: And then Carrie picks Karen and Jennifer up. So if

250
00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,000
Speaker 2: you want to pause right there, and you know, everybody's

251
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,680
Speaker 2: still kind of drunk at this point, Karen seems like

252
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,840
Speaker 2: a pretty dramatic person. Of course, when you realize John

253
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,960
Speaker 2: is dead later, you think that's extremely suspicious that she

254
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,720
Speaker 2: made that proclamation, But she is it for a dramatic person.

255
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,320
Speaker 1: Did did did they say? How the context in which

256
00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:09,200
Speaker 1: it was said, because like think about this, let's just

257
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,680
Speaker 1: put yourself in this situation, like Ricky. Ricky is pretty normal,

258
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:15,680
Speaker 1: Like you're married to somebody, you know how they act.

259
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,320
Speaker 1: Let's say Ricky was supposed to be home at twelve

260
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,439
Speaker 1: o'clock and it's like five in the morning, you can't

261
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,200
Speaker 1: talk to him. You would call me and be like,

262
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,520
Speaker 1: oh my god, Mom, he hasn't called me.

263
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:25,720
Speaker 2: I know he's dead.

264
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:26,520
Speaker 1: I know he's dead.

265
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,600
Speaker 2: Like right, this is just like a meltdown picturing it

266
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,880
Speaker 2: because where dramatic Italian women and this is exactly how

267
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:33,840
Speaker 2: it would go, just like that.

268
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, like that's what I'm saying. So like, how was

269
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,560
Speaker 1: it said. It wasn't like, oh he's he's dead, I'm sure,

270
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,720
Speaker 1: Like how was it said? Was it frantic? Was it

271
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,040
Speaker 1: like I just know something's wrong? Because because it for

272
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,520
Speaker 1: to Karen's defense, like if she she knows that he

273
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,839
Speaker 1: loves the kids and stuff, and he wouldn't have left

274
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,560
Speaker 1: the kids with no one watching him and he didn't

275
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,120
Speaker 1: get back to her, and even though they fought and stuff,

276
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,520
Speaker 1: they always made up quick whatever. It was very unusual

277
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 1: for her to not hear back from him at all,

278
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,000
Speaker 1: and nobody knew where he was, so of course everyone's

279
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,480
Speaker 1: mind goes to that, that's not just like a Karen

280
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,040
Speaker 1: Reid thing, that's like an everybody thing, right.

281
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,000
Speaker 2: I don't think it's unusual she would have said something

282
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,480
Speaker 2: like that. I mean, I just read the voicemails she

283
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,840
Speaker 2: had left him, and clearly she was an extremely dramatic person,

284
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,560
Speaker 2: So I don't think it's that far fetch that she

285
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,720
Speaker 2: of course immediately went to he's dead.

286
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just don't like listen, like, you know, Gabe's

287
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,240
Speaker 1: a firefighter, right, Like, if I don't hear for three hours,

288
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,400
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of like, it's very unusual for him

289
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,560
Speaker 1: not to text me right back, and then I start

290
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,400
Speaker 1: going down, Oh my god, he's her or something's wrong.

291
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,760
Speaker 1: You know, that's like normal shit people do.

292
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,600
Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, I don't think that's bizarre, but they really

293
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,960
Speaker 2: tried to use that against her later. So this is

294
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,400
Speaker 2: around five am when she's calling Jennifer and John's friend

295
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,960
Speaker 2: Carrie to help look for him because nobody knows where

296
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 2: he is at this point. So then an hour later

297
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,680
Speaker 2: they're all the three of them driving around looking for John.

298
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,320
Speaker 2: They pull up to the Albert's house. And then they

299
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 2: see John laying in the snow in their front yard, unresponsive,

300
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,000
Speaker 2: and what time was this? Again? Sorry, this is at

301
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 2: six am?

302
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,680
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's it's what what time of year was this?

303
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 2: This was it?

304
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:21,120
Speaker 1: Obviously it was so so it was probably just just

305
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,120
Speaker 1: getting light out, so you know what I mean, Like,

306
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:25,720
Speaker 1: it's it's not right?

307
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,280
Speaker 2: Is it dark at six? So it's it's dark.

308
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,680
Speaker 1: So when they approached the scene and they see him

309
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,520
Speaker 1: lying in the snow out front of the house of

310
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:39,200
Speaker 1: the Albert this is now the the retired Boston Cops

311
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,120
Speaker 1: house the house, they all went, yeah, let's say that.

312
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,720
Speaker 1: So what what did they do? They they ran out

313
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,320
Speaker 1: of the car right away, like what happened?

314
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,080
Speaker 2: So the friends Carrie and Jennifer are saying, Karen got

315
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,200
Speaker 2: out of the car, she immediately saw him laying there,

316
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,720
Speaker 2: and she so they were saying that it seemed like

317
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,200
Speaker 2: she knew he was there by how quick it was

318
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,800
Speaker 2: when they approached the house, which seems suspicious to them.

319
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,720
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, what it was it obvious that he

320
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:09,520
Speaker 1: was laying.

321
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,840
Speaker 2: There, because I mean, I feel like it would be

322
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,440
Speaker 2: obvious to see a grown man laying on a white

323
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,920
Speaker 2: blanket of snow, I don't know, like, I don't think

324
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 2: that's that nuts, all.

325
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,600
Speaker 1: Right, So so they thought that it was a little weird.

326
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 1: And now is it possible that in Karen's mind that

327
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,200
Speaker 1: she was thinking like that it could have been possible

328
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 1: that she hit him and that maybe she really was

329
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,400
Speaker 1: looking there or is that just kind of like because

330
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 1: you know you said, you're saying according to the friends,

331
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,240
Speaker 1: but like they we already know they didn't really like her,

332
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,880
Speaker 1: so they're obviously going to be like saying whatever to

333
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:46,840
Speaker 1: get her in trouble.

334
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,640
Speaker 2: Right, Well, this is what I'm getting at. There's clearly

335
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,800
Speaker 2: two sides of this story because things just at this

336
00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,560
Speaker 2: point we have to go through both scenarios that both

337
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,600
Speaker 2: people take us through because they have a completely different

338
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,480
Speaker 2: series of events than she does. So, according to the friends,

339
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,440
Speaker 2: they pull up to the Albert home, Karen immediately sees

340
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,440
Speaker 2: him on the ground, almost as if she knows he's

341
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,840
Speaker 2: laying there, and then says, I hit him. I hit him.

342
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,120
Speaker 2: But when Karen's retelling this series of events, she said,

343
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 2: I had a feeling and I saw him laying there,

344
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,679
Speaker 2: and I said I hit him. Question Mark, like she

345
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,720
Speaker 2: was questioning, could I have hit him not saying she

346
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,320
Speaker 2: did hit him. Okay, so that is something they also

347
00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,080
Speaker 2: try to use against which.

348
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,800
Speaker 1: I think, you know what, maybe we could talk about

349
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,800
Speaker 1: that after, but okay, I won't say that until after

350
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,200
Speaker 1: we go through everything. So when they approach his body,

351
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:43,679
Speaker 1: is he dead.

352
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,239
Speaker 2: No, he's unresponsive, but he's seemingly still alive. So they

353
00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:48,200
Speaker 2: called nine one one.

354
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,920
Speaker 1: Okay, So they call nine one one and they bring

355
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,520
Speaker 1: him to the hospital.

356
00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,240
Speaker 2: But he is pronounced dead two hours later.

357
00:17:54,520 --> 00:18:00,080
Speaker 1: Okay, so what immediately after that? So this is this

358
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 1: is only seven and a half eight hours after they

359
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:12,760
Speaker 1: were last seen together. So she's she's his current girlfriend,

360
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,960
Speaker 1: so she goes to the hospital with him.

361
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,359
Speaker 2: She goes to the hospital and she's acting so erratic

362
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 2: there that she's put on a really a psychiatric hold,

363
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,680
Speaker 2: so she doesn't even know he's dead at first, when

364
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,200
Speaker 2: everybody else finds out because she's in a psychiatric hold.

365
00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,240
Speaker 2: And so for this she's texting her dead and saying, again,

366
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,240
Speaker 2: I think this is just being dramatic. John's dead. I

367
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 2: don't want to live because she didn't know what was

368
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:37,760
Speaker 2: going on.

369
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,679
Speaker 1: So I'm actually curious for people who work in emergency rooms,

370
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 1: how often things like this happen because I think especially

371
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,960
Speaker 1: I always think about all of these stories we talk

372
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 1: about when you approach one of your loved ones who's

373
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,200
Speaker 1: either dead or you find someone unresponsive and they're bleeding

374
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:02,119
Speaker 1: or anything. I imagine that it's so traumatic that that

375
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,359
Speaker 1: people completely like lose their shit, you know, because I

376
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,000
Speaker 1: know I would. I would. I don't. I don't know

377
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:10,600
Speaker 1: that i'd have to go to the psych word, but

378
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,240
Speaker 1: I know I would be. I would be shocked and

379
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,919
Speaker 1: panicked and freaking out. So or is it because she

380
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 1: she she had this overwhelming physiological response because she thought

381
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,640
Speaker 1: that she was partially or completely responsible for it.

382
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,439
Speaker 2: Or is it because her BAC at the time she

383
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,000
Speaker 2: was at the hospital was point zero nine? Like she's

384
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:34,640
Speaker 2: drunk when it so happening.

385
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 1: So they bring her to a psychiatric for a psychiatric evaluation,

386
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,000
Speaker 1: and at that time they take her blood and that's

387
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,240
Speaker 1: when they find out that her alcohol level is that high.

388
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: So what was it? A point zero nine okay, which

389
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 1: is at eight o'clock in the morning roughly, That's what

390
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 1: it is, okay? And did they ask her when the

391
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 1: last time that she had a drink was or I'm

392
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:03,440
Speaker 1: just I'm just curious because that is actually the legal

393
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 1: or the limit where you could get pulled over in

394
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 1: charge with the dui. So if she was that drunk

395
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 1: at that time in the morning and she stopped drinking,

396
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: let's say at midnight or whenever she went home, I

397
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,879
Speaker 1: mean she was like piss ass drunk, unless she was

398
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 1: drinking up until like all night, which is a possibility

399
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,640
Speaker 1: because she was stressed out because she didn't know where

400
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 1: he was and she she still hadn't gone to bed

401
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 1: at night, right.

402
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, in my mind, there's a couple of scenarios.

403
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 2: So she is drunk at this time at point zero nine,

404
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,919
Speaker 2: So there the toxicologist is saying that would have placed

405
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,560
Speaker 2: her at being at point two ninety two at the

406
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 2: time she dropped John off.

407
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 1: Which is she is piss ass drunk.

408
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I also could see a scenario. I mean, she

409
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,160
Speaker 2: she admittedly was drinking at the bars, and there's footage

410
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 2: of her drinking. But I was saying during the trial,

411
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 2: like how they know she was really having alcohol because

412
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,879
Speaker 2: they didn't take her blood at the time she dropped

413
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 2: off John. And I don't think she was the person

414
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 2: driving in the morning. I believe the friend Carrie was

415
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,639
Speaker 2: the one driving at five am when they were looking

416
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 2: for him, So like, how did they know she didn't

417
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 2: come home from the bar and drink in between dropping

418
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 2: him off and that search in the morning. To me,

419
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 2: that point nine two two nine to two BAC is

420
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 2: speculative because they don't know if she was at that

421
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 2: level when she was driving earlier.

422
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 1: Well, regardless, she's still at this time of the morning,

423
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 1: she's she's.

424
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 2: Drunk, So she's drunk. She's drunk, regardless of she's drunk

425
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 2: at this time, So like that doesn't matter. So I'm saying,

426
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 2: like for the psykehold, I think, like I'm gonna just

427
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 2: keep reiterating this. Clearly, I think she's an extremely dramatic person.

428
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 2: So you have that they're fighting, they're not in a

429
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,640
Speaker 2: good place, and then you add alcohol on top of it,

430
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 2: and he's unconscious. She doesn't know what's going on. At

431
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,360
Speaker 2: the point of her cycled she doesn't even know he's

432
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,920
Speaker 2: officially died yet, so of course she's freaking out. Yeah,

433
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,120
Speaker 2: but I am curious if this happens with a lot

434
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 2: of I mean, I would certainly not be okay if

435
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 2: this was my husband.

436
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure. So she had so she gets

437
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 1: so she's herself gets a medical evaluation at the hospital then,

438
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: which is interesting actually because if she if she kept

439
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,880
Speaker 1: her shit together and wasn't freaking out like, there would

440
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: have really been no indication for them to take her

441
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 1: alcohol level at that time. And so she's there, when

442
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 1: when did it? At one point was it like, Okay,

443
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 1: he got there because somebody hit him or Karen hit

444
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 1: him or whatever that he ended up there, Like where

445
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: did it turn from she's at the hospital with her

446
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: boyfriend that's unconscious, to now she's a suspect in his death.

447
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 2: So she was only arrested a couple days later. So

448
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: this was pretty much the leading theory. And because of

449
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 2: her saying I hit him, they were taking the friend's

450
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 2: account of what happened. They were only zoning in on

451
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: her because she was the last person to have seen

452
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 2: him alive. Allegedly, we don't ever have confirmation that he

453
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 2: went in the Alberts home. They're all claiming he never

454
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 2: went in the house and they never saw him after

455
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 2: they left the bar, even though he's dead on their

456
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 2: front lawn. Everybody says it didn't see you.

457
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: A police officer in an investigation is almost like all

458
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 1: of these things I talk about with celebrity deaths and

459
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: the VIP thing, because it's just not it's not handled

460
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: the same exact way you would do a stranger kind

461
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 1: of you know, and then things are skipped and things

462
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: are not done properly. And I mean, obviously in this case,

463
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot of suspicion that there's evidence tampering, right,

464
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 1: So we'll get into that later. But so when you

465
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: say it's botched, like what happened? They show up. And

466
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 1: so if I'm a cop and I have no idea

467
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: what cops do, really, for the most part, I don't

468
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 1: really ever deal with that. But if I'm a cop

469
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: and I show up to a person's house that there

470
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: was a dead body found on their front lawn, the

471
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: first thing I'm going to do is go up to

472
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: the house, interview who lives at the house, find out

473
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: what happened, and go in the house and like look

474
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: around and see what the hell's going on.

475
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 2: Okay, So the investigating departments in this case was the

476
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 2: Canton Police Department, which is the town they were in,

477
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 2: and the Massachusetts State Police. I'm kind of confused why

478
00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 2: the state police was involved at all, and he he

479
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 2: was a Boston City cop. Correct, yes, but they're friends

480
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: with like others other apartments.

481
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: That always happens.

482
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the lead investigator on this case was Trooper

483
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 2: Michael Proctor, who was friends with the Alberts, the home

484
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 2: in which this this guy's found dead. Right, So when

485
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: they start investigating this case, they don't close off the scene.

486
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 2: They never go into the Albert's home. That Alberts never

487
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: even come outside. I'm sorry, if there is this person

488
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 2: on my lawn, I'm going out there, let alone my friend.

489
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: This is so ridiculous. So this guy comes to investigate

490
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: the death and he knows the homeowner and doesn't go

491
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: like you need to tell me. He didn't even go

492
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: in the house to pee or anything come on that.

493
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: He didn't get and he didn't think it was a

494
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: conflict of interest in any way, No, not at all.

495
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: So why would it be like so the Alberts never

496
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 2: come out even though their friend is dead on their

497
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: front lawn. They never close off the scene, and then

498
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: they like blood samples in red solo cups and then

499
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: put those samples into paper grocery bags. What was anybody thinking?

500
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: I am confused because let's say, for example, And God,

501
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: I hope that I'm wrong with this because this could

502
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 1: open up a whole can of worms for other investigations

503
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 1: these people have done. But let's say so Michael Proctor

504
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: is a Massachusetts State Police officer. You're saying, yes, okay,

505
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: So like let's say any rando that he doesn't know

506
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: they get the same as AC phone call. Why don't

507
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: they have the proper tools with them to collect evidence?

508
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 2: That's what is blowing everybody.

509
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: That's how they were collecting all evidence for all homicide

510
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 1: investigations with red solo cups and grocery bags like it.

511
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: Just it's so bizarre to me that they don't have

512
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: that kind of kit with them.

513
00:26:59,119 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 2: Now.

514
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: I don't know how smaller departments work or whatever, because

515
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: I would think that that that would be a crime

516
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: scene investigation thing that willn't even.

517
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how small the department is. That would

518
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: never be acceptable in twenty twenty two when this happened.

519
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: Now I understand that, I'm just I just am trying

520
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: to figure out because I only really know the way

521
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: things are done in like a big city like Philadelphia

522
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: or something, where so I'm just wondering, like what employee

523
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: I guess I would say, is because you have to

524
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: be trained in collecting evidence like that crime scene evidence,

525
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: getting it in such a way that you're not having

526
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: contamination and things like that. So I'm wondering, like what

527
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: person is in charge of doing this and if so

528
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: I would assume I guess we should never assume, but

529
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: you would think that they would have this whole entire

530
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: kit in their car at all times because they're getting

531
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: called to potential scenes all the time and you're going

532
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: to have to collect evidence and if not, you call

533
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: the proper person to show up to collect it properly.

534
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: That's why I'm just so confused, like why there would

535
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: ever be a situation. And furthermore, so, they have like

536
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: a stack of red solar cups in their in their

537
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: police vehicle where they get the solo.

538
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: Cups from the house, right, Like I actually think they

539
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: got them from a neighbor's house. So they were just like, hey,

540
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 2: we need to collect some like we're out of sample cups.

541
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 2: We just are gonna use these as backup. Like it

542
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 2: was totally negligent.

543
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And and like you're you're a cop, right, so

544
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: you know that when someone dies under suspicious circumstances that

545
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: this is eventually going to go to court. So maybe

546
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: if you're out of specimen cups, you just make a

547
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: call and say like, hey, can so and so drive

548
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: me these things because I need them? Is there's a

549
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: lot of this is outrageous, Okay, Well.

550
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: And this is why this case starts getting insane because

551
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: you have two sides of the story and then you

552
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: start off with the very first step. The investigation is

553
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: botched from start to finish. You have major conflict of

554
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: interest with the officers involved in the investigation. I'm sorry,

555
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: but it's not like even just this one guy showed

556
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: up to take all these samples. You have multiple officers

557
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: at this scene doing this and participating in this. Let's

558
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: just say, regardless, if this was a normal person that

559
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: was found dead and the police showed up already not

560
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: following protocol, correct, But when a police officers found dead,

561
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: are these not considered like extra high profile cases. I mean,

562
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 2: this guy was forty six years old, active duty police,

563
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 2: active duty police officer exactly, and this isn't considered a

564
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: high profile case with extra steps that should be taken.

565
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: So what one interesting thing I remember when I was

566
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: looking up the case of this. So when I was

567
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: at the Philly Medical Examiner's office, I had an autopsy

568
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 2: of a cop that got shot, and I was really

569
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: kind of impressed and also just really intrigued by the whole,

570
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: the whole thing of it, because it was it was

571
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: like his body was brought to the Medical Examiner's office

572
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 2: and there was a lot of cops that came in

573
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: and were watching the autopsy, and that was clear that

574
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 2: he was shot and he was the victim of a

575
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: police violence, you know what I mean, Like he was

576
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 2: killed by somebody in front of everybody. But in this

577
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: particular case, when there's police officers that may potential that

578
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: at least were at the scene, I feel like it's

579
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: a conflict of interest for police officers to be at

580
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: that autopsy because they would potentially have say and influence

581
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: at the autopsy because they were at because they were

582
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: at the scene of the crime. Literally one of them

583
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: lives at the scene of the crime. So I'm not

584
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: I just I don't really I don't really understand, like

585
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: what in the hell these people were thinking.

586
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's out of control.

587
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: Oh right there, All that evidence collected is inadmissible because

588
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: it was mishandled, so what so.

589
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: And they their reasoning was they were out of of

590
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: specimen cups like that.

591
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: I don't think they ever gave a reason. They were

592
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: just kind of like, I don't know what happened.

593
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: Like so, if you had a family member who died

594
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: in that jurisdiction, wouldn't you be questioning everything if this

595
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: is how they handle one of their own.

596
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: So I think this is contributing to the sensationalism of

597
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 2: this case because it's opening this Pandora's box of all

598
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: this corruption between all these police departments.

599
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: So so at the time of the autopsy, there were

600
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: the state police detectives watch John O'Keefe's autopsy, which I

601
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: think is a huge conflict of interest because the lead

602
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: proctor guy was friends with the person that owned the house.

603
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: I mean, just it's.

604
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: Like being considered a suspect.

605
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: But like how I listen, they don't have to be

606
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: a suspect. But that was the goddamn scene of the crime.

607
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: It's just outrageous. It's a conflict of interest because the

608
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: person died on their front lawn. Okay, end of story.

609
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if they weren't involved or not. It's

610
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: just kind of like, let's just keep this separated because

611
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: that would make the most sense here. Okay, so god,

612
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: this is this story is just so in detailed. So

613
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: at this time, obviously they are thinking Karen Reid is

614
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: somehow involved because they go to her house and arrest her.

615
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: Oh, they're not thinking she's involved. They're like she's done it.

616
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: Like they already are like she must have done a

617
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: three point turn and hit them, and she was so

618
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: drunk that she definitely killed them, Like this is the

619
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: only theory.

620
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: Immediately, so within a couple of days at his death,

621
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: they're at her door to arrest her. Now this is

622
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: and who So this is Canton police.

623
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, you don't you don't go in

624
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: the house or interview like anybody else really that was there.

625
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 2: Then that you just assume the one person is the

626
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: only person that could have done it, not anybody else, right,

627
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 2: just her because they were fighting. This is where the

628
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 2: fighting starts not looking good because they were like she

629
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: was fighting and she was drunk driving, therefore she must

630
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: have done it. Now, like I don't know, there was

631
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: like five to ten other people at this house at

632
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: this time. We're we're not even gonna look into it

633
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: at all.

634
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: Oh my god, all right, So they show up at

635
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: her house and arrest her and charge her with So

636
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: she's arrested February first, which is only a couple days later,

637
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: she charged with manslaughter, and then she's accused of motor

638
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: vehicle homicide and leaving the scene of a deadly crash.

639
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: Fast forward to June of twenty twenty two. The charges

640
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: then get up to second degree murder after the circumstances

641
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: of the drunk driving and her angry texts and voicemails

642
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 1: come through. This is such a stretch, So it literally

643
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: goes from stretch she hit him drunk driving to she

644
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: intentionally murdered him while listen like she's basically saying, you're

645
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: an asshole. You're looking at other girls. I didn't hear

646
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: anything like motherfucker, I'm gonna come kill you right like this,

647
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: Personally I did. Was there anything that was like I'm

648
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: going to hurt you, not to my recollection.

649
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: And personally, I think if you if she did willingly

650
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 2: or knowingly kill him, she wouldn't then go home and

651
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 2: then start leaving him angry voicemails, because don't you think

652
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 2: your anger would be resolved by taking that person's life.

653
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 2: You wouldn't then proceed to leave their dead body like

654
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,919
Speaker 2: all these angry for them to never hear.

655
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: Listen, Like, there's been plenty of times where people like

656
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: to do stuff like that so they could throw off

657
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: cops and their investigation to be like I, I called

658
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: him and left him a voicemail. I couldn't have thought

659
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: he was dead. But she like, she gives me crazy

660
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: bitch vibes, but not like Jody Aius crazy bitch vibes.

661
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: Like Jody Arius was like manipulative and like and like slimy,

662
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: and and you would expect her to do something like

663
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: that because but I, Karen, Read's just kind of like

664
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: everybody give me that exact vibe.

665
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 2: Everybody knows a couple in their life that loves screaming

666
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 2: at each other and having these horrible fights and then

667
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: going home and having like the most aggressive makeup sex.

668
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 2: Like just everybody knows somebody that acts like this, and

669
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: this is the type of couple they seem.

670
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: One hundred percent one hundred percent. So so she gets

671
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: arrested and charged with all these things, and so I

672
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: guess where should we start now with with her trial.

673
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she posted one hundred thousand dollars bond and

674
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: pleaded not guilty. So through the duration of these trials,

675
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 2: she is not sitting in jail like she's out. She's

676
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 2: living at her house while these trials are happening.

677
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: So that's a little I mean, I guess we hear

678
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: this from time to time, but like, if you're being

679
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 1: accused of killing a person, like you could just pay

680
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 1: and get out and be free.

681
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: Well, it depends on the circumstances. And as we know

682
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 2: from other stories we cover on the show, apparently you

683
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 2: could do really egregious things and have bonds. So I

684
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: think for this they might have considered it an isolated

685
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: event and she was potentially not a threat to society.

686
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: So trial one starts on April twenty nine, twenty twenty four.

687
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: So we start off with you know, the prosecutions going

688
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: really hard on the points we talked about earlier, with

689
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 2: you know, the cops saying that she must have hit

690
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: him because she claims she did hit him according to

691
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: the friends, and that she was drunk driving. But the

692
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 2: defense argued that this was a mass cover up for

693
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 2: the police departments, which I think wasn't that good of

694
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: a strategy to go into that first. Well, but they're right,

695
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, like there's definitely corruption, but going straight

696
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 2: into this is a mass cover up that you got

697
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: to that. Yeah, and that's and I don't I mean

698
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 2: when I say they're right, I don't mean that it's

699
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 2: a cover up. I'm not one hundred percent sure if

700
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: I think that although you're either the dumbest person ever

701
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: or you or you're I almost I almost rather be

702
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 2: a cover up because people just can't be this stupid,

703
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like, but people are that stupid,

704
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 2: Like this is the problem. You want to think a

705
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 2: police department would actually take the proper sample cups and

706
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 2: collect blood samples, but no, they took red solo.

707
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: Like the cups are the least of their problems.

708
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 2: But that's concerning that they started.

709
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: There the house, the house, not going into the house

710
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: is the is really to me, it's a flaring like

711
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: red flag, like it's just it's something is just not right.

712
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 1: And I don't blame the defense for being like this

713
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: is a conspiracy theory, because on what planet? What justification

714
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: would they even have for that? That's that's not protocol

715
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: even a little bit like, no.

716
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: It's not so. The defense's theory was that during trial

717
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: one that they thought John was beaten up inside the

718
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: Albert home or attacked by their dog and then left

719
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: outside to die. So a really alarming piece of evidence

720
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: that was uncovered during this trial was that Jennifer McCabe,

721
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 2: who was Nicole Albert's sister, who was there that night,

722
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: at two o'clock in the morning, googled how long to

723
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 2: Die in the cold. But she says she didn't see

724
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 2: anything and it was it was not about that. She

725
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: said Karen asked her to google how long to die

726
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: in the cold when they found him at six o'clock

727
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: in the morning, and she happened to google that on

728
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: a tab she had opened at two am. And technology

729
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 2: experts are saying, that's not how that works.

730
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: Oh okay, So so there were people that actually testified

731
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: that said that that's so. What is she so she's

732
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 1: trying to say, Karen asked her to google it, and

733
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 1: she opened like a Safari window that she already had

734
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: opened in her phone and that's when she put it in.

735
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, and that window was open.

736
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: They can't tell.

737
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 2: Them, they can, which is why they said that's not

738
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 2: how that works.

739
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I was gonna say, like, because when you

740
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: originally open the tab, it should be on a web

741
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: page that's like clocked at that time, and then the

742
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: next time you touch it when you go you.

743
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 2: Know what I mean, I would imagine the way it

744
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 2: works is that you see when the search was submitted,

745
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 2: not when the tab was open.

746
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, so listen, that's that's actually complete bullshit. Like I

747
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: feel like right now, as a non expert person, I

748
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: could go on my Google searches right now and see

749
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: exactly what time I hit the.

750
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 2: But also if Karen, like why would that be Karen's

751
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 2: first thought to ask her how long to die in

752
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: the cold? Like, I just don't really understand it.

753
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yo, that lady too, that McKay lady is freaking

754
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 1: creepy looking.

755
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 2: Well they all are when they're testing and salty.

756
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 1: It's like she's she's like, I don't know, there's there's

757
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: something a little extra sauce about that one.

758
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: Okay, so other evidence coming out from this time. Let's

759
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: go back to the house for a second. This trial

760
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 2: happens two years and a couple months after John's death.

761
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 2: In between this time, that Alberts just got rid of

762
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 2: their dog they had had for years. Didn't explain why

763
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: they sold the house that they never dared exit to

764
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: see their dead friend on their lawn. Is that not suspicious?

765
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: That is okay?

766
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: So so that's before the trial started. But they knew

767
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: that she was on trial for this. They know she

768
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: was going to trial, so okay. So you can look

769
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 1: at it from both perspectives. Number one, which is more

770
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: likely in my opinion, that it's suspicious that they're selling

771
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: the house because they're trying to get rid of get

772
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: rid of it because they were in the frenzy, the

773
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: media frenzy, et cetera. But another thing is like, Okay,

774
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: their friend died there, and they don't want the memory,

775
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: Like I don't want to look out at my front

776
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: lawn every day and picture my friend being dead and

777
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 1: frozen on my phone.

778
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 2: How could you picture it when you never went outside

779
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 2: to see them laying out there? Like I underd I

780
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: understand your theory.

781
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 1: I mean, like that's that's the human response would be this,

782
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: this house brings too many memories. But unfortunately, and and

783
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: like people get rid of houses and sell houses all

784
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: the time, people don't usually get rid of dogs. Can

785
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 1: we say that, like unless you have a dog that's

786
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: been like violent, you know, like attacks your friend in

787
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: the front yard or whatever, or that you have to

788
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: get rid of them. Like people that have dogs typically

789
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 1: think that they're dog is like a child and you

790
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: couldn't even take that dog away if you tried. So

791
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: them getting rid of their dog, what was their re

792
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: they didn't even have like a legit reasoning. But who

793
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 1: they gave it to? Somebody? Like the dog was still

794
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: alive at some point. I don't know, Like.

795
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't think they just like gave

796
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 2: it to a friend. I think they gave it to

797
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 2: like a shelter.

798
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: They brought it to like Germany and dropped it off

799
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: at somebody's house or something.

800
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 2: No, seriously, all right, so let's get into Brian Higgins,

801
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: who was also there that night. Brian was an ATF

802
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: agent who was friends with John O'Keefe, and he said

803
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 2: one night when he was leaving John's house that Karen

804
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 2: had kissed him and was sending him flirty text messages. So,

805
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 2: considering they were all hanging out that night, is there

806
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 2: a possibility there was an argument about that going on

807
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 2: in the car?

808
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: Is there proof of this, of this flirtatious relationship.

809
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, via text what like what I mean? The text

810
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: were basically just like her calling him hot, which is

811
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 2: in a pro when you're in a relationship with somebody

812
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 2: else asking him to come over her house.

813
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so that's that to me, is a little

814
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: bit more than even flirtatious. I would say that's like

815
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: next level.

816
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 2: Like like cheating, basically almost cheating. Yeah. Yeah, so you

817
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 2: have to consider he's like hanging out with all of

818
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: them still, even though she like kissed him, which I

819
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: don't think we know if he really like kissed her

820
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 2: back or was engaging back. I think he was flirting

821
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 2: back with her, which is also like, why are you

822
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: flirting with your friend's girl? What's wrong with all these people?

823
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, They're all kind of like really gross people, honestly. Okay, continue, Okay,

824
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,720
Speaker 1: So the biggest thing in this was Trooper Michael Proctor.

825
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: So obviously we know there was a conflict of interest

826
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: because he was he was friends with the Alberts.

827
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 2: And then we know the investigation was just like bots

828
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 2: beyond anybody's imagination. So then it gets even worse. He

829
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: was caught looking for nude photos of Karen on her

830
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: phone and then sent texts about her to friends and

831
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: family and coworkers that referred to her as a whack

832
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 2: job and said he hoped she'd kill herself.

833
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 1: Wait, how did he have access to her phone?

834
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 2: Because for the investigation, they were probably looking through her data.

835
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: That's so like, So how do they know that he

836
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: was looking for naked pictures.

837
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 2: Because he was telling he was talking to people about it.

838
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 1: That's so weird. So he's really unprofessional.

839
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: Well, he got fired from the Massachusetts State Police, which

840
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 2: I feel like you have to do something incredibly wrong

841
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 2: and terminated from.

842
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: The like a total dipshit because that probably affects your

843
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: pension and everything else. And I mean these guys are

844
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: like older, approaching fifty, Like they're probably getting close to

845
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,479
Speaker 1: retirement age anyway, and you're just gonna like throw away

846
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: your whole career for Why would you do that if

847
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: you knew that it was going to court.

848
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,280
Speaker 2: Well, this makes me think they had been doing stuff

849
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 2: like this for years and years in years, and he

850
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 2: just thought he was untouchable.

851
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well there's a lot of that here because of me.

852
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 1: I mean, not that regular people don't drink and drive,

853
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: but like all these people are law enforcement officers and

854
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,479
Speaker 1: they're just driving around piss as drunk, Like why because

855
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 1: if they get pulled over, they won't get in trouble.

856
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 2: Did you watch that twenty twenty?

857
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 1: He was just recently, Yeah, And I really thought that

858
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: his body language was suspicious to me, honestly, Well, why

859
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: just because I was watching you know, Kara was over,

860
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: so we were watching it on the couch and then

861
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: we would like stop watching it for a while and

862
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: we would talk and then I would just turn the

863
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 1: volume down, and I was like looking at his mannerisms

864
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: and stuff, and I just I'm not like a body

865
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: language expert, obviously, but I just felt like he seemed

866
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: terribly insecure and like he was hiding something. It just

867
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: was like he didn't feel comfortable or confident. You know,

868
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: when you ask somebody a question and they're they like

869
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: even I don't even want to say the kids because

870
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: they're kids, but you asked them a question that they're lying,

871
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: and they just they break eye contact or they're a

872
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: little whimpery with the response. It was kind of like that.

873
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: I know that could happen if you're nervous too, but

874
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: it just didn't seem that he was very that he

875
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: was being very truthful.

876
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 2: Well, I would say, I think it's kind of weird

877
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 2: that he even did the interview with twenty twenty. And

878
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 2: he probably did it because he needs money because he

879
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 2: got fired from his job and like, what's he going

880
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 2: to do after this work at Starbucks?

881
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 1: Like, but he had to have done the interview before

882
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: the verdict came out. And maybe do you think that

883
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: he was confident that she was going to get convicted.

884
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he was fired months ago. It didn't even

885
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 2: matter if she was convicted or not. He was still

886
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 2: getting fired for what he did. No, I know, I'm

887
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 2: just I'm just curious.

888
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: I'm curious if he thought that because it got released

889
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: the day of right, Yeah it was. It was the

890
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: day of the verdict.

891
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he was obviously interviewed before the verdict.

892
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that's what I'm saying. So I'm just curious

893
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: because there were a lot of people online that were

894
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: I've been watching this the whole time on X or

895
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: whatever and just being like, Oh, Karen Reid's toast. Any

896
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,879
Speaker 1: person that doesn't see this, She's getting guilty? Is this

897
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: is this?

898
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 2: And this?

899
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: Like people honestly thought that she was all the evidence

900
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: was so clear, and You're like, was he confident that

901
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 1: he was gonna come out and clear his name? Because

902
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: I feel like now it makes him look even worse.

903
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: Well, somebody confidently left us a YouTube comment last week

904
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 2: that said Brian Koberger is innocent and we clearly haven't

905
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 2: done our research on the Idaho murder case. I'm like, Okay,

906
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 2: oh god, if you want to think so, lady, but

907
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like, nothing this guy did is making

908
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: him innocent. I mean, you can't be like, admittedly looking

909
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 2: for nude photos on a murder suspect's cell phone device?

910
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: What is wrong with you? And I'm sure that made

911
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: his family feel real great.

912
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: This is also weird too, like if you hate someone

913
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: so bad, which he like, he's investigating John o'keith's death,

914
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: so he doesn't even really know Karen read so why

915
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: is he saying I hope she kills herself? And also

916
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 1: if you want someone to kill themselves, why why would

917
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 1: you want to see them naked too? It's like a.

918
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 2: Weird well to me, it's some weird dark fetish and

919
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 2: it has me questioning the rest of his profession. And

920
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 2: how he's treated other suspects that he's interacted with. I mean, honestly,

921
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 2: it's really concerning.

922
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 1: Okay, So, so he has these text messages which don't

923
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: look good for him. What about during during the night

924
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 1: or the next day? Did they get everyone's text messages?

925
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: Like Jen mccave's. I know, they got her Google Search

926
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: off her phone, so they had to they had to

927
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: subpoena her phone, and I.

928
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: Mean, they look through everybody's texts, but they weren't really

929
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 2: looking at them. And I don't even think the prosecution

930
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: was looking at them. I think the defense had subpoenaed those.

931
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 1: Wasn't there something too that after? So they claimed that

932
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 1: they left the house at a certain time and night

933
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: and they didn't see anything. But wasn't there like a

934
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: weird thing that there were phone calls between them or

935
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 1: something like that? So they like who, like if they

936
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: were all together in the house, like, why would they

937
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 1: be making phone calls to each other? Yeah, So they's bizarre.

938
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 2: They claim they left around like one o'clock in the

939
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 2: morning and didn't see anything at all, but then her

940
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: Google search how Long to Die in the colds at

941
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 2: around two thirty in the morning, and then yeah, throughout

942
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: the middle of the night, there was a bunch of

943
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: phone calls between people that were hanging out in the house,

944
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 2: like that's bizarre.

945
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: It is having a party and stuff like why.

946
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, they feel like they didn't focus on that enough.

947
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, but but they're cops, right, so maybe they were thinking,

948
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: oh they I mean, they can't really they can't really

949
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about on the phone.

950
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 2: All right, So the big question is how did John die? Right,

951
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 2: we really don't know at this point how he died.

952
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: So the prosecution is claiming that they have this tail

953
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: light from Karen's car, proving that she hit him. But

954
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 2: then the defense provides ring doorbell footage proving that she

955
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 2: hit it beforehand and that's why it was broken.

956
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: So where did they get the pieces of the tail light? Then?

957
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 2: So the pieces were at the Albert home. But then

958
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 2: this is where the conspiracy start coming in because they

959
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 2: claimed they didn't get them until the snow melted, so

960
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 2: they were there for a while. And then there's theories

961
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 2: that the police department planted the piece is there and

962
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 2: that her tail light wasn't that broken even the day

963
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,399
Speaker 2: of when they were looking for him. So there's all

964
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 2: these theories that the police broke the tail light and

965
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 2: planted the pieces at the scene, which is shady. But

966
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 2: let's talk about the autopsy, because wouldn't it mean that

967
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 2: he would have these injuries on his body that showed

968
00:50:58,880 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: he got hit by a car.

969
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's definitely specific things that happened during this autopsy,

970
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: which if you watch the trial at all, and any trial,

971
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 1: you're always going to have the prosecution is going to

972
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: have a medical examiner testify, and that's the one that

973
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: did the autopsy, and then you're going to have experts

974
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: testify on the other side to argue with why they're wrong.

975
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 1: So and that's just kind of a matter of opinion,

976
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: I guess for the jury to listen and decide what

977
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: they believe, because science isn't always an exact science, and

978
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: you really could finagle results either way sometimes depending on

979
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: what you want them to be, I guess. So the

980
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: medical examiner in that case determined that his cause of

981
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: death was due to blunt force trauma that incapacitated him

982
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: and he was found out in the cold, and he

983
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: could not remove himself due to the head injury, and

984
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: therefore hypothermia was also listed as a contributing factor. Okay,

985
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: so that would be his cause of death. But the

986
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: Emmy's office said that the medical examiner didn't have enough

987
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: information to determine if those injuries happened by accident or

988
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,720
Speaker 1: they didn't happen by accident. So right there, that makes

989
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 1: me think, well, how are they charging this woman with

990
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: homicide when they don't even know if, like, let's say

991
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 1: she was pissed ass drunk. They got in a fight

992
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 1: and she was like, go in the front the house

993
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: with your friends, and backed up into him somehow. I

994
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 1: don't even know why he would be behind the car,

995
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 1: Like the whole entire thing of it is is bizarre

996
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 1: of the position of it. But she backed up into

997
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: him and ran him over and then drove off. This

998
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: was an accident. How would you know if the medical

999
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: examiner is not able to say if it's if it

1000
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: was definitely intentional or not, Like, how are they able

1001
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 1: to say it just because she sent some nasty grams

1002
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: to him?

1003
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 2: The second degree murder charge never made any sense to me.

1004
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 2: I never will understand it. I understand them wanting to

1005
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: go after her for vehicular manslaughter, but still they didn't

1006
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 2: have enough evidence for it.

1007
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 1: So if you hit somebody with a car to the

1008
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: point where you knock them off of the ground, you're

1009
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: expecting to see certain injuries on them, right, So he

1010
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 1: did have sternal and rib fractures, with the medical examiner

1011
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: determined that that was due to CPR injury. So when

1012
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 1: you're doing chest compressions, oftentimes there's a lot of hematomas

1013
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 1: or bruises and broken ribs because you're really pushing on

1014
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: someone's chest and it's easy to break someone's rib. He

1015
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 1: had other evidence of trauma. He had a lot of

1016
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:55,399
Speaker 1: bruises on his hand, which were first when you look

1017
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 1: at them, you're like, oh my god, he's got bruises

1018
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: on his hand. But then you look at them and

1019
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,479
Speaker 1: you're like, anytime you've ever had an eye or gotten

1020
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: blood taken out of your hand, sometimes you get big

1021
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 1: bruises on your hand like that. They are not injuries

1022
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: you would see in somebody that was trying to defend themselves.

1023
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 1: They're not injuries that you would see if somebody got

1024
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: hit by a car, because it's on the top or

1025
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: the dorsal of your hand, and that's just it's just

1026
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: a weird place to get a bruise, and we know

1027
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 1: that he had the ivy and stuff. Now, one thing

1028
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 1: that he had, which was that, which is why the

1029
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 1: medical examiner said that he was knocked down and had

1030
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: this head injury, is because when you looked at his face,

1031
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: he has what's called perry orbital echimosis, which is we

1032
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: also call raccoon eyes, or it looks like he has

1033
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 1: two black eyes. Now, when you see that, you might think, oh,

1034
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: he got punched in the face. But usually obviously when

1035
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 1: you punch them in the face, you don't punch them

1036
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: twice in each eye. So this is caused by a

1037
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: skull fracture. So sometimes when there's a fracture at the

1038
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: base of the skull, blood could leak and get behind

1039
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,720
Speaker 1: the eyes, and it gives us appearance around the eyes

1040
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: that you look like you have two black eyes. But

1041
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: they're not really from trauma to the eyes themselves. It's

1042
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: from a fracture of the base of the skull. So

1043
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: there's another photograph from the autopsy of the back of

1044
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: his head and he has evidence of blunt trauma. So

1045
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: he has this laceration that's about three I'm looking at

1046
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: it right now, so it's about three point five centimeter

1047
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 1: in length. A laceration is due to blunt trauma, So

1048
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: it's when your skin is hitting against another blunt object.

1049
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: And with the head it's a little bit interesting because

1050
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: or any part of the body that's covered by bone

1051
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: is because the bone is blunt object too. So it

1052
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,720
Speaker 1: hit something and it caused a laceration. Is I would

1053
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: describe it as the skin being split like it's its tear,

1054
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 1: so it's jagged, and the edges of the wound might

1055
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: have like little pieces of flesh in between it. Because

1056
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: it's not the same as if you got a knife,

1057
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 1: Like think about if you had a steak and you

1058
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: ripped it in half, as opposed to getting a sharp

1059
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: knife and cutting it like it would just look different.

1060
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: So so something he hid his head on something which

1061
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 1: caused his skull to fracture, and she I guess the

1062
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: medical the first medical examiner that did the autopsy was

1063
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: saying that obviously it wasn't enough of an injury to

1064
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 1: kill him because he was still alive when they found him,

1065
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: but it could have made him pass out and could

1066
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: have made him stuck there in the snow. Now, I guess.

1067
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,399
Speaker 1: Throughout this whole entire trial, they're trying to figure out, well,

1068
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:44,720
Speaker 1: like what hid his head and did he get knocked

1069
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: on the ground and hit his head on the ground,

1070
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,240
Speaker 1: Like how did he get this wound on his head? Now,

1071
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: the most interesting part really of his whole entire autopsy

1072
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: is this picture that's been going viral on x and

1073
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,280
Speaker 1: Instagram and everywhere and throughout the trial. Are these these

1074
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:05,800
Speaker 1: wounds that are on his arm. He has these crazy

1075
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: wounds on his right arm, only on his right arm.

1076
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,760
Speaker 2: Which they're trying to say is caused by the tail

1077
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:11,919
Speaker 2: light hitting him.

1078
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: They're they're trying to say it's caused by the tail

1079
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: light hitting him. And just like when I looked at

1080
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 1: it the first time, I was like, absolutely not. So

1081
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: the medical examiner describes them as abrasions or scrapes, and

1082
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: this whole entire time, I've never thought that they were

1083
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,439
Speaker 1: an abrasion or a scrape. And abrasion is when you're

1084
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: a kid and you're riding your skateboard and you fall

1085
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: and scrape your knee. You know what it looks like, right,

1086
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: You know what an abrasion looks like. These when you

1087
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,479
Speaker 1: look at these wounds, you could just tell that there's

1088
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 1: that that they're depressed, like you could see that it's

1089
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 1: it's thick, and it's it's just not it's not caused

1090
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: by a scrape along a piece of plastic. What furthermore,

1091
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: one of the biggest things is you would think that

1092
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 1: if you got hit with a car so hard that

1093
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: it knocked you on the ground, that there would be

1094
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 1: a bruise or there would be a broken bone. Nothing.

1095
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: There's no bruising or broken bone underneath of this guy's arm, Okay.

1096
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 1: And when you look at it, they have like a

1097
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: very specific look to which the prosecution says were she

1098
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: They're saying it's from the tail light and from the

1099
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: broken plastic, and the defense is saying, no, our experts

1100
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: said that it looks like a dog bite. So this

1101
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: is this is really an interesting thing to bring up

1102
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 1: because then you have to think about, well, this house

1103
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: that he died outside of so happened to have.

1104
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 2: A dog that they so happened to get rid.

1105
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 1: Of that they so happened to get rid of, and

1106
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: it was it was a German shepherd. I believe it

1107
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 1: was like a big dog. Yeah, And these wounds would

1108
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 1: match with an attack of a big dog. The medical

1109
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: examiner said, they didn't see any defense wounds from a person.

1110
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: But I'm like, well, could these be defense wounds from

1111
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: a dog? I mean, this is a commonplace if you're

1112
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: seeing a person that's getting attacked by the dog. What's

1113
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: the if a dog came up to you right now, Like,

1114
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 1: what would be the first thing that you would do?

1115
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: You would put your arm up to block it, right,

1116
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 1: I'd run away because it well like the vice, so

1117
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: it could attack you from the back and start like

1118
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 1: chewing on you. No, Like, if a dog ran up

1119
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: to you and looked like it was gonna bite you,

1120
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: your first reflex would be, especially if you were a

1121
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: right handed person, would be like to block it right.

1122
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 1: And that's where those injuries are. It's right on his

1123
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: his right his right forearm right. So that's a little

1124
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 1: bit unusual. Also when you look at these injuries, because

1125
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 1: dog bites have very specific wound patterns, and they have

1126
00:59:55,800 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 1: a particular V shaped hole like meaning that one end

1127
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: of it is almost looks like the letter V. And

1128
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: when you look at John O'Keeffe's autopsy pictures, that's what

1129
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: it looks like. It's it's really crazy because it's from

1130
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: the canine tooth and that it is like the anchorage

1131
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 1: point of it that and then it pulls down with

1132
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 1: the with the weight of like moving the arm and

1133
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 1: things like that. And then those bites can also be

1134
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 1: accompanied by these parallel lines that you would see with

1135
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 1: the claws from a dog. And when you look at

1136
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 1: these wounds, they're just they're parallel lines like they it's

1137
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 1: it's bizarre to if you think about you getting hit

1138
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: with a broken piece of plastic from a tail light,

1139
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 1: they wouldn't be perfect parallel lines that you would see

1140
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: from two perfectly spaced apart claws, you.

1141
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 2: Know what I mean. And then to bring back something

1142
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 2: we mentioned earlier, is this glass he took from the bar.

1143
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 2: There is a theory that perhaps the cuts were from

1144
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 2: the glass, but that's just not the case.

1145
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 1: Listen, how what was it? What kind of glass was it?

1146
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 1: Like a pint mug or like a pint glass or

1147
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:12,920
Speaker 1: a or a martine whatever, like bar glass.

1148
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 2: Wouldn't give those type of wo I'm looking at this

1149
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 2: right now, and there's what.

1150
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: There's ten fifteen marks on this guy's arm, Like, how how.

1151
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 2: Exactly it's It's just it.

1152
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 1: The theory doesn't even make It doesn't even make any sense. Now,

1153
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: the reason that I say it's important that the police

1154
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: that were involved with this investigation, who also knew the

1155
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 1: police officers involved in the case, it was a conflict

1156
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 1: of interest is because if you're the medical examiner's office

1157
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: and you get a body and you start doing the autopsy,

1158
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 1: and then the people that are there that are watching

1159
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 1: are the investigators, they're going to say, oh, this is

1160
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 1: what happened. That we think that this woman hit this

1161
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 1: guy with the car and we saw the broken tail light,

1162
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 1: did it and all this stuff. Well, you're planting information

1163
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: in the head of the medical examiner. Now, the medical

1164
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 1: examiner should not be thinking what they're told and just

1165
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 1: be thinking about what they're looking at. And if you're

1166
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 1: looking at this, there's you just you can't say that

1167
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 1: that was caused by a headlight. Like even if somebody's

1168
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 1: telling you that your your little antennae should go up

1169
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 1: and be like, eh, that doesn't look like an antenna

1170
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 1: that headlight would cause that injury, right, But that didn't

1171
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 1: happen in this case. But she also didn't really seem

1172
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 1: to have any explanations as to what caused that. But

1173
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 1: that came later with the testimony and things like that.

1174
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 2: Wait, based off what you just said about the investigators

1175
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 2: being in the autopsy, I wanted to bring up a

1176
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 2: point that Cheryl keeps making on Zone seven, which is

1177
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 2: that I find it odd that the investigators went to

1178
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 2: the autopsy, but none of the police officers went to

1179
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 2: his funeral, which she said is incredibly unusual for law

1180
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 2: enforcement funerals that not all of them would be there.

1181
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: So wait, so Albert, that guy didn't even.

1182
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 2: Know none of the cop friends went to.

1183
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,520
Speaker 1: Okay, right there too, See, I didn't even know that.

1184
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 1: That is absolutely right. Listen, when and and and like

1185
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 1: the firefighters and cops kind of even though they're different,

1186
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 1: they kind of have a lot of the same similar things,

1187
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 1: Like if there's a firefighter that dies in another city,

1188
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 1: Gabe will go to the funeral.

1189
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 2: Like exactly.

1190
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 1: They are very they are like a tight knit brotherhood

1191
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 1: of guys. That is very bizarre, and especially bizarre because

1192
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 1: they're friends. Yeah, like that's yeah, that's really weird.

1193
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 2: And she didn't go because she was under arrests.

1194
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's what I'm saying that, Like I understand.

1195
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 1: I guess I could understand if she was there and

1196
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 1: they were so mad at like because they thought she

1197
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: killed the friend. But that's so shady.

1198
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 2: Get into the hypothermia too, because you had a really

1199
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 2: interesting take about that, Okay.

1200
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 1: So so she said that the medical when I say she,

1201
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: the medical examiner, had said that he had died of

1202
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:25,439
Speaker 1: hypothermia basically, which means that his body temperature went too low.

1203
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 1: So you're our body temperatures, we have something called homeostasis

1204
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 1: because we're warm blooded animals. So our body, our body

1205
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 1: temperature is at ninety eight point six degrees give or

1206
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: take a few degrees at the same time, and that's

1207
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 1: the ideal temperature for our organs to function at their

1208
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 1: at their absolute best. And if you get too hot,

1209
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 1: if your temperature goes too hot, so that's when you

1210
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: get a fever basically, then you it could it doesn't function.

1211
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 1: Your body doesn't function best obviously, you know, because you

1212
01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 1: feel like you're literally going to die when you have

1213
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: when you have a fever of that high, and that's

1214
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 1: called hype or ethermia. So there's a point that it

1215
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 1: could get too high that you will die, your organs

1216
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 1: won't function anymore. Well, the same thing can happen if

1217
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 1: you get too cold too.

1218
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 2: So this is.

1219
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 1: This is really interesting, and this is my theory that

1220
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 1: proves that he wasn't laying there as long as they

1221
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: said that he was laying there. According to the prosecutors,

1222
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 1: John was knocked over by Karen Reid's car and left

1223
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 1: for dead around twelve thirty am ish and he wasn't

1224
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 1: discovered until six am ish, meaning that he was there

1225
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 1: for around five and a half hours. The temperature in Canton, Massachusetts,

1226
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 1: on the night that he was supposedly knocked down by

1227
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 1: Karen Reid's car, between the hours of twelve am and

1228
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 1: six am, ranged from eighteen to twenty eight degrees fahrenheit.

1229
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 1: He was outside wearing a hoodie partially covered in snow.

1230
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 1: He wasn't dressed appropriately for the weather, but Karen said

1231
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: it was very common for him not to.

1232
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 2: Wear a coat.

1233
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: When his body was discovered, like I said, his body

1234
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 1: temperature was in the low eighties. Now, I had found

1235
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 1: this in one of my forensic books, a chart on

1236
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 1: Newton's law of cooling in relation to hypothermia. This chart

1237
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 1: that I have showing here, you're gonna have to go

1238
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:21,960
Speaker 1: in the grosser room to look at it, but it's

1239
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 1: showing a chart of how many hours you're in the

1240
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:32,360
Speaker 1: cold according to how much you weigh and how your

1241
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 1: body temperature drops the longer that you're in a certain temperature. Okay,

1242
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: So this particular chart that I'm referencing is based on

1243
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: a person that's one hundred and seventy six pounds who's

1244
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 1: in twenty five degree fahrenheit air temperature and a ten

1245
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 1: mile an hour wind. Now we're gonna say that John

1246
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 1: O'Keefe weighed a little bit more than that. So instead

1247
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 1: of one hundred and seventy six pounds, he was two

1248
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 1: hundred and seventeen pounds ish, and the temperatures were between

1249
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 1: eighteen and twenty eight degrees, so in the range of

1250
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 1: the same exac temperature that his body was found in.

1251
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: According to this chart, one hundred and seventy six pound

1252
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 1: person would not survive in these conditions for more than

1253
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 1: two and a half hours. Okay, that's what.

1254
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,040
Speaker 2: They're trying to say. He was there for six.

1255
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:25,640
Speaker 1: For almost six hours, That's what my question is. According

1256
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 1: to this chart that we used in forensics textbooks. This

1257
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: is from a forensic textbook, one hundred and seventy six

1258
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 1: pound person would not survive in these conditions for more

1259
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 1: than two and a half hours. So obviously he weighed

1260
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:40,560
Speaker 1: a little bit more, so he could have lasted a

1261
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 1: little bit longer. But there's no way more than double

1262
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 1: that time five and a half to six hours with

1263
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 1: lower temperatures and more extreme weather because there was snow

1264
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 1: that he was out there, and on top of that,

1265
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 1: he wasn't even dead when he was found. He was

1266
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 1: still alive when he was found, the medical examiner, So

1267
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 1: this is even this is even more interesting, the medical

1268
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 1: examiner said. Alcohol intoxication has been shown to inhibit some

1269
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 1: of the mechanisms that the body uses to maintain heat,

1270
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:16,759
Speaker 1: so it's definitely a factor that that is a negative

1271
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:20,240
Speaker 1: when it comes to hypothermia. So when our body's cold,

1272
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 1: the natural response is to shiver to generate heat, right,

1273
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:28,600
Speaker 1: So alcohol delays that mechanism, and a head injury with

1274
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:33,599
Speaker 1: unconsciousness also delays that mechanism. So it's in my opinion

1275
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:35,600
Speaker 1: that he was no way out there for five and

1276
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 1: a half hours and still alive when found down, not

1277
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 1: wearing a coat directly on and covered by snow. There's

1278
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 1: just there's absolutely no way that he was out there

1279
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:49,759
Speaker 1: that long. And I finally, I mean just last week,

1280
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:53,840
Speaker 1: one of the defense medical examiners testified that she didn't

1281
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 1: think that he died from hypothermia. And I'm like, why

1282
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: is this the first time I'm hearing this in this

1283
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 1: entire trial, because ago I brought it up months ago.

1284
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:04,720
Speaker 1: But I'm saying that I brought it up in the

1285
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 1: Grosser Room post and I brought it up on the

1286
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:11,559
Speaker 1: Zone seven podcasts. But what I don't understand why, because

1287
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:15,719
Speaker 1: this right here proves a timeline. They they they're able

1288
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,719
Speaker 1: to prove his weight, they're able to prove the temperature,

1289
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 1: they're able to prove the conditions. They should have been

1290
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:24,640
Speaker 1: able to say, there's no way that he was outside

1291
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 1: during that time. Now, what's what's really interesting is, all

1292
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 1: of a sudden, when you look at her text messages,

1293
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 1: Jim McCabe's text messages at two o'clock in the morning,

1294
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: which is now an hour and a half past when

1295
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:41,360
Speaker 1: Karen Reid said she was there. Now you're like, hm,

1296
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 1: that's interesting, Like that timeline could could start matching up

1297
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 1: a little bit closer, and and and just think about

1298
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: the dog, the potential dog wounds or whatever happened. Is

1299
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 1: it possible that there was some kind of a fight

1300
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 1: in the house and the dog attacked, you know, like,

1301
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:05,559
Speaker 1: think about this sometimes if if he this is just

1302
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:08,799
Speaker 1: a theory obviously, but if he went into the house

1303
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:12,720
Speaker 1: and they were like, where's your bitch girlfriend? Right, and

1304
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 1: then he was just like, don't talk about my woman

1305
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:17,240
Speaker 1: that way. They got up in each other's face. What

1306
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 1: does a dog do with their owner? They they get

1307
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:23,280
Speaker 1: like if I if I walk into momm and pop

1308
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:27,639
Speaker 1: Up's house and go to kiss pop like, the dog

1309
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:30,760
Speaker 1: starts eyeing me up, like yo, get away from him.

1310
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:33,200
Speaker 1: He's like, I'm protecting him.

1311
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, right.

1312
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 1: So if if John O'Keefe was in a in an

1313
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:41,120
Speaker 1: argument with with the homeowner and they were screaming at

1314
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 1: each other, the dog could have jumped up on him

1315
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 1: like that and knocked him over to the ground and

1316
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 1: they could have brought him outside and that would explain

1317
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 1: the wound on his head, That would explain the wound

1318
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 1: on his arms, and that would explain the text messages

1319
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:00,400
Speaker 1: that are like how long what does it say? House?

1320
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:05,679
Speaker 1: She's because she was just long to die in the cold.

1321
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:09,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just I'm just putting out like a

1322
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:10,679
Speaker 1: potential theory.

1323
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:13,800
Speaker 2: There's also this grand conspiracy that they were all in

1324
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 2: this giant swinger situation, and it's I could cover up

1325
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 2: for them all being swingers or something.

1326
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. I just think that they're I

1327
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 1: just I don't know, because if they were swingers like that,

1328
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:34,640
Speaker 1: that could be a conspiracy theory. But if they were swingers,

1329
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 1: like I feel like there would have been evidence that

1330
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 1: they were doing There's there's no text message there. They're

1331
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 1: they're acting like they're acting like teenagers, honestly, like that

1332
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: that's how they're acting, like Oh, I like you, and

1333
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 1: I like you, and you're hut and the weird go

1334
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:52,760
Speaker 1: in and make sure it's okay that I can't. Then

1335
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:56,720
Speaker 1: I go in the party like it's all it's all

1336
01:11:56,800 --> 01:11:59,720
Speaker 1: just like, it's all bizarre behavior. In my opinion, it's

1337
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:02,720
Speaker 1: bizarre our behavior. That he was the guardian of two

1338
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 1: children and they were at home alone and he was

1339
01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:07,679
Speaker 1: out drunk with his friends, like all of it's weird

1340
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: to me. But like, people do what they're gonna do whatever.

1341
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: I just I personally just think that I don't one

1342
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:18,040
Speaker 1: hundred percent like I'm not one of these like free

1343
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 1: Karen Read people, because I think all of the people

1344
01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 1: involved are just kind of like scumbaggy kind of people.

1345
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 1: But I definitely just one hundred percent in agreeance with

1346
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:33,120
Speaker 1: the jury on this. There's absolutely no way that you

1347
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:37,679
Speaker 1: could prove anything, and even if you could, the worst

1348
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 1: you could say is she pulled away because she was

1349
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: pissed off and hit him by accident and didn't realize it.

1350
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 1: There's no evidence to suggest anything else.

1351
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:49,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. So during this first trial, there was nine weeks

1352
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 2: of testimony and then several days of deliberation, and then

1353
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:55,240
Speaker 2: they ended up being a hung jury. They could not

1354
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 2: they could not come to an agreement that she was

1355
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 2: guilty or innocent. They just couldn't. So this means a retrial. God,

1356
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:06,360
Speaker 2: this must have been such a horrible moment for her.

1357
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:12,920
Speaker 1: The thing is is that she's she's like, she's not likable, right,

1358
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:14,640
Speaker 1: you would say that she's not.

1359
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 2: I was just texting my cousin Devin last night about

1360
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:21,120
Speaker 2: why because she her and her sister lived just started

1361
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 2: watching all the I'm like, I can't believe you've never

1362
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:26,240
Speaker 2: watched anything about this, so weird texting this is.

1363
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:28,720
Speaker 1: A good episode, a good starter episode if you want

1364
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:29,599
Speaker 1: to get into it now.

1365
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I said that via text. I was like

1366
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:36,639
Speaker 2: she comes across unlikable because I don't think she is,

1367
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:40,519
Speaker 2: but like, it doesn't mean she did it exactly, I

1368
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 2: agree with And I'm not gonna stand outside the courthouse

1369
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 2: with a sign this is free Karen Reid. But I

1370
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 2: could say they can't prove this beyond reasonable doubt that

1371
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:48,640
Speaker 2: she did it.

1372
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:51,439
Speaker 1: And like another thing I want to say, which we

1373
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:53,480
Speaker 1: probably should have said in the beginning of the episode,

1374
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 1: is that there's just so much more to this trial

1375
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:01,240
Speaker 1: that we're not even covering, like a lot of it,

1376
01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 1: because for times sake, we've already been talking for over

1377
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 1: an hour and it's and everybody's so much suffering. And

1378
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:12,360
Speaker 1: my kind of but my, my whole thing is obviously

1379
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:16,600
Speaker 1: because I'm a PA and I do autopsy and surgical pathology,

1380
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 1: that I I have to bring up that just the

1381
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 1: timeline alone from a scientific standpoint isn't possible, and the

1382
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:28,639
Speaker 1: wounds as well. And another thing that we always bring

1383
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 1: up when Maria and I are talking about this case

1384
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 1: is the similarities with cases like the Ellen Greenberg case,

1385
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:36,559
Speaker 1: which if you don't know about that, that's a whole

1386
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:39,759
Speaker 1: other we the whole other time that I'm not getting

1387
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:41,800
Speaker 1: I'm not getting into it. If you're interested in it,

1388
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 1: you could read about that in the gross room. But

1389
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 1: it's just it's just another case that leaves a lot

1390
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 1: of answers because the initial investigation was botched, and and

1391
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 1: that's when you and and when you become a police

1392
01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:57,400
Speaker 1: officer and a forensic investigator and when you do autopsies,

1393
01:14:57,400 --> 01:15:01,720
Speaker 1: it's just so important that you are meticulous and you

1394
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 1: go slow, and you get the correct answers, you collect

1395
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:09,559
Speaker 1: the evidence correctly, because if you get trust lost in

1396
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 1: you early in the process, the rest of the case

1397
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:13,000
Speaker 1: is shit.

1398
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:17,680
Speaker 2: No, absolutely all right. So let's wrap up with what

1399
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:20,320
Speaker 2: happened in trial too, and then the verdict. So we've

1400
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:23,200
Speaker 2: gone over some differences in trial too. That began on

1401
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:26,840
Speaker 2: April first, twenty twenty five, and it just ended June

1402
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 2: eighteenth with the verdict. So again weeks and weeks and

1403
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:32,560
Speaker 2: weeks of going over all of the same evidence and testimony.

1404
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:35,680
Speaker 2: I think what was successful in this case was that

1405
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:39,880
Speaker 2: the defense changed their strategy. So instead of really focusing

1406
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 2: on the conspiracy, which I think they were right to

1407
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:45,000
Speaker 2: bring up, I just don't think it was right to

1408
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:48,600
Speaker 2: go that deep into it at first. They chose to

1409
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:53,040
Speaker 2: go like Why weren't you looking into anybody else besides Karen?

1410
01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:56,120
Speaker 2: Why was the investigation so botched? And that was really

1411
01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:59,840
Speaker 2: important for the jurors to see. I always get tripped

1412
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 2: up saints. So basically, like, you didn't look at anybody

1413
01:16:05,240 --> 01:16:07,720
Speaker 2: else besides Karen, which we've seen. They didn't go in

1414
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:10,280
Speaker 2: the house, they didn't collect the evidence properly, they didn't

1415
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:13,520
Speaker 2: do anything correct. There was conflicts of interest with the investigators,

1416
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 2: So how could you reasonably charge her not ruling anybody

1417
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:22,000
Speaker 2: else out? Basically, Also, historically, mistrials are really good for

1418
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 2: the defense because you've proved enough doubt the first time

1419
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,479
Speaker 2: around that you could pretty much zero in on that

1420
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 2: for the second time. And that's exactly what happened.

1421
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:33,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I I mean I am just and like

1422
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:37,160
Speaker 1: at the end of it, it sucks because this guy,

1423
01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:41,040
Speaker 1: he's a police officer, he was an active police officer.

1424
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:43,679
Speaker 1: Most people have really good things to say about him.

1425
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:47,160
Speaker 1: He was he was. I mean, that's a really big

1426
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 1: thing that he did, being in his forties and taking

1427
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 1: his sister's children and raising them, right, Yeah, of course,

1428
01:16:56,080 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 1: So and now like think about his for example, I

1429
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:08,320
Speaker 1: don't know parents, mother, father, whatever, his parents like this guy.

1430
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:14,519
Speaker 1: They lost a child already to cancer and now they're

1431
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 1: losing and now they lost a son. And if you

1432
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:20,240
Speaker 1: have I mean that could have been their only children,

1433
01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:22,639
Speaker 1: if whatever, if you have a couple children, like losing

1434
01:17:22,640 --> 01:17:25,639
Speaker 1: two of your children when they're when you're still alive,

1435
01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:29,840
Speaker 1: it is terrible. And not only that they're old people

1436
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:33,720
Speaker 1: now and they have to raise kids, because there's they're

1437
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:37,400
Speaker 1: gonna have to raise kids because of this. So you

1438
01:17:37,479 --> 01:17:41,559
Speaker 1: feel terrible and like all of this circus is is

1439
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:43,519
Speaker 1: and we're guilty of it too, just being like the

1440
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 1: Karen Reid trial, it's just like, no, it's just John

1441
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:49,479
Speaker 1: O'Keefe was the one that died. We don't know howe died.

1442
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:53,040
Speaker 1: We're never gonna know howe died unless someone confesses or

1443
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:55,919
Speaker 1: some video pops up at some point, and their family

1444
01:17:56,680 --> 01:18:01,599
Speaker 1: is left with this circus, literal circus, and now they

1445
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 1: left and they have no justice.

1446
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:07,920
Speaker 2: They have no justice regardless because regardless if the police

1447
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:11,120
Speaker 2: officers that were his friends were involved in his death

1448
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:14,960
Speaker 2: or not, the police is responsible for fucking up the

1449
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 2: investigation so bad that the family can't seek justice exactly.

1450
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:23,000
Speaker 2: It's his fault, whether she got convicted or not. They're

1451
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:25,800
Speaker 2: still not answers as to what happened to him, and

1452
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:29,160
Speaker 2: they will never know unless you're saying somebody straight up

1453
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:30,879
Speaker 2: confesses to exactly what happened.

1454
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:34,720
Speaker 1: As of this recording, only one drawer has come out

1455
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:39,080
Speaker 1: and said that he believes not only did they not

1456
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:42,800
Speaker 1: have enough evidence, but he actually believes that she's innocent. Now,

1457
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:46,800
Speaker 1: he didn't really say what the other people said, and.

1458
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:49,519
Speaker 2: He did what he said. They were pretty split on it,

1459
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:52,040
Speaker 2: so some of them thought she was innocent and some

1460
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:54,720
Speaker 2: of them thought she was guilty. But the people who

1461
01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:57,519
Speaker 2: thought she was guilty agreed that there was not enough

1462
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:00,799
Speaker 2: evidence beyond reasonable doubt that she okay.

1463
01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:04,719
Speaker 1: So, like, I'm really curious to see what they say,

1464
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 1: because really that's the most important part is to see

1465
01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:12,120
Speaker 1: how other people are perceiving it, not just us people

1466
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:14,439
Speaker 1: that are looking from around like people.

1467
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:14,800
Speaker 2: That's that.

1468
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:16,880
Speaker 1: And but this is the thing, Like we could talk

1469
01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:19,280
Speaker 1: to multiple people that know all of because we all

1470
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 1: watched the trial the past two ones, like we all

1471
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 1: know the details, and everybody has such varying opinions on it.

1472
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:28,040
Speaker 1: So but I want to know when they were sitting

1473
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:31,080
Speaker 1: in the room, like what are the details and I

1474
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:33,599
Speaker 1: bet you when we hear from all of them, it's

1475
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:36,439
Speaker 1: going to have to do with them not going into

1476
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:36,920
Speaker 1: the house.

1477
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:40,519
Speaker 2: Well of course, because how could how could you live

1478
01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 2: with yourself if you convicted a woman not having concrete

1479
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 2: evidence like that.

1480
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:51,040
Speaker 1: So so that's so when we hear from them, that's

1481
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:55,240
Speaker 1: when the o'key family needs to listen to that, and

1482
01:19:55,240 --> 01:19:58,759
Speaker 1: and that's who they should put their anger towards, because

1483
01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:01,960
Speaker 1: that's if think about how different this would have turned

1484
01:20:01,960 --> 01:20:05,000
Speaker 1: out if they collected everything properly, if they went in

1485
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 1: the house, if they had accountability it every it could

1486
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,600
Speaker 1: have turned all of their decision around really.

1487
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:15,360
Speaker 2: Well of course, of course, but you can't convict her

1488
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:19,200
Speaker 2: without this evidence, and that's the problem. I I'm not

1489
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:22,839
Speaker 2: surprised she was found So she was found not guilty

1490
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 2: on the second degree murder and the manslaughter or the

1491
01:20:25,400 --> 01:20:28,280
Speaker 2: leaving the scene of a deadly accident. She was found

1492
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:31,640
Speaker 2: guilty of operating under the influence, which I think was appropriate,

1493
01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:35,040
Speaker 2: and she got one year of probation for that. So

1494
01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 2: like that was appropriate because she's being held responsible for

1495
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 2: the thing she was doing wrong, which was drunk driving.

1496
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 2: But they did not have gone to us that judge

1497
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:47,640
Speaker 2: was so salty that all right, so like everything, so

1498
01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:51,639
Speaker 2: the entire investigations bought. This story is weird. You don't

1499
01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:54,480
Speaker 2: really know what happened. And then you have the mistrial

1500
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:57,360
Speaker 2: first time around, and then what was weird with this

1501
01:20:57,439 --> 01:21:00,240
Speaker 2: second trial was I mean, the judge sucked. She was

1502
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:03,080
Speaker 2: so salty, she was so rude to everybody. She was

1503
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:04,639
Speaker 2: probably so pissed she didn't get.

1504
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:09,160
Speaker 1: Charged she was she was very blatantly biased in my opinion, No,

1505
01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:11,360
Speaker 1: I agree with you, and listen, like I said that,

1506
01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:16,719
Speaker 1: I don't think Karen Reid doesn't have she just like

1507
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:21,120
Speaker 1: she's not likable. But also you know, I don't know,

1508
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:23,479
Speaker 1: it's like we you know, we obsestantly, like watched the

1509
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:26,360
Speaker 1: Jodiarius trial and you just look at her and you're like, yo,

1510
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:30,280
Speaker 1: this chick is like bad shit crazy Like Karen Reid.

1511
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:35,880
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like she's she's like a passionate,

1512
01:21:36,040 --> 01:21:39,760
Speaker 1: like she's nuts, but she's even rough around that. She

1513
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:42,160
Speaker 1: seems like she's like rough around the edges and like

1514
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:45,840
Speaker 1: gets pissed off and like I don't know, I just

1515
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:48,479
Speaker 1: I never really got the vibe that she was like

1516
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:53,000
Speaker 1: like do you know what I mean? Like like conniving

1517
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:56,920
Speaker 1: and and and some of the things murder like yeah,

1518
01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:59,720
Speaker 1: I just don't Yeah, And if if anything, like if

1519
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:02,439
Speaker 1: any thing you could that, if anything, I would say,

1520
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:06,360
Speaker 1: the most thing that you could do is is if

1521
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:08,600
Speaker 1: if she was ever gonna get convicted, was that she

1522
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:12,479
Speaker 1: bumped them by accident because she was drunk. And you know,

1523
01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:14,519
Speaker 1: you see people get in a fight, they like drive

1524
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 1: off really fast, right, like it would be something like that,

1525
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:20,679
Speaker 1: like it was an accident. She I just one percent

1526
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:24,759
Speaker 1: believe she had no idea that she hit him and

1527
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:27,599
Speaker 1: and like went home and like played out and called

1528
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 1: him and pretended like she.

1529
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 2: A hundred And they don't have any evidence to prepeated it.

1530
01:22:32,840 --> 01:22:35,680
Speaker 2: So the last weird thing that, of course had to

1531
01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:38,320
Speaker 2: happen with this is the jury knocked on the door

1532
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:40,080
Speaker 2: and said they had a verdict, and then a couple

1533
01:22:40,040 --> 01:22:42,880
Speaker 2: of minutes later said never mind, we don't. So then

1534
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:45,439
Speaker 2: everybody got some into the courtroom and then the salty

1535
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:49,240
Speaker 2: judge sealed the original verdict, and I'm like, I hope

1536
01:22:49,240 --> 01:22:52,880
Speaker 2: they read the correct one, just to make it fair.

1537
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:55,320
Speaker 2: But it was so bizarre, and on Court TV they

1538
01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:58,720
Speaker 2: were saying that was incredibly unusual that that happened. And

1539
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:01,640
Speaker 2: the last time something even kind of similar happened was

1540
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:04,920
Speaker 2: with Johnny Depp and Amber heard when the jury said

1541
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:07,200
Speaker 2: they had a verdict and they didn't fill the slip

1542
01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:09,280
Speaker 2: out correctly, and then all they had to do was

1543
01:23:09,280 --> 01:23:13,799
Speaker 2: fill the slip. So every single element of this trial

1544
01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 2: was so bizarre.

1545
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:18,439
Speaker 1: I think her comment so so, I guess when they

1546
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:22,280
Speaker 1: decided that they were going to sentence her, write or whatever,

1547
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:24,640
Speaker 1: they were going to give her her sentence, and she

1548
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:28,880
Speaker 1: said so, she was just kind of like, oh so

1549
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:31,559
Speaker 1: basically she's getting a charge that any first time drunk

1550
01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:34,960
Speaker 1: driver would get. Okay, like it was, wasn't it said

1551
01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 1: like that, just like, oh so so this psycho that

1552
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:39,759
Speaker 1: killed a cop is just gonna.

1553
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 2: Like That's how I said, and that exact attitude. I

1554
01:23:42,320 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 2: think you're reading a little too. No, I'm not in it.

1555
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:46,799
Speaker 2: There was definitely twode behind.

1556
01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:50,200
Speaker 1: There was a too, like like, okay, so you could

1557
01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:52,840
Speaker 1: just kill the cop and this is all you're getting

1558
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:53,280
Speaker 1: out of it.

1559
01:23:53,240 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 2: Because do you think this judge could seriously fathom the

1560
01:23:56,360 --> 01:24:02,160
Speaker 2: inappropriate actions of multiple police departments? Well no, but like

1561
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:04,840
Speaker 2: here it happened. It is unbelievable. It did happen, but

1562
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:05,560
Speaker 2: it's unbelievable.

1563
01:24:05,600 --> 01:24:08,000
Speaker 1: One other thing that we should mention too, for those

1564
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:11,519
Speaker 1: of you who didn't watch, when they read the verdict.

1565
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:18,840
Speaker 1: Inside of the courtroom, there was a like an audible like.

1566
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:21,880
Speaker 2: You could here like people breaming outside outside, Like it

1567
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:25,280
Speaker 2: was so loud from the microphones inside of the courtroom

1568
01:24:25,280 --> 01:24:28,400
Speaker 2: from outside it was nuts. All right, Well, you guys

1569
01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:32,720
Speaker 2: have suffered through this very long explanation. We tried to

1570
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 2: get as much as possible in here, but of course

1571
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 2: there's so much to this case, and we couldn't watch

1572
01:24:39,040 --> 01:24:42,439
Speaker 2: it every single day on Court TV. We have a life,

1573
01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:46,519
Speaker 2: so I don't know, and we couldn't like, uh, you know,

1574
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:49,720
Speaker 2: get give up hanging out with our kids and go

1575
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:52,880
Speaker 2: stand outside of the trial every day for two weeks

1576
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:55,280
Speaker 2: or three weeks or three months or whatever it took.

1577
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:58,479
Speaker 2: And but we hope that after all of this you

1578
01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:01,880
Speaker 2: have some better under of why this case was so

1579
01:25:01,920 --> 01:25:06,320
Speaker 2: sensationalized and ridiculous. Okay, so now onto the recap. What

1580
01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:08,320
Speaker 2: were your first thoughts initially?

1581
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:16,320
Speaker 1: So overall, I think that whenever you really follow a

1582
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 1: case or even I just was talking about a couple

1583
01:25:20,200 --> 01:25:23,559
Speaker 1: of weeks ago when Gabe and I were listening to

1584
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:27,559
Speaker 1: the Frankenstein book in the car when then we watched

1585
01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:31,760
Speaker 1: the movie afterwards. When you when you watch it, you

1586
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:34,280
Speaker 1: want to be able to pick out all of the

1587
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:37,759
Speaker 1: familiar details you have about that book or about that story,

1588
01:25:38,240 --> 01:25:40,639
Speaker 1: And I do think they did a pretty good job

1589
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:44,839
Speaker 1: with that. They really covered all of the different things.

1590
01:25:45,479 --> 01:25:47,960
Speaker 1: And since this case is so complex, I was wondering

1591
01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:49,679
Speaker 1: how they were going to do that in an hour

1592
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:51,719
Speaker 1: and a half or whatever it was. But I feel

1593
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:53,639
Speaker 1: like they did, so that was the pro of it.

1594
01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:56,479
Speaker 1: The con of it was just like it was just

1595
01:25:56,880 --> 01:26:01,559
Speaker 1: really like bad, Like it was just really at like

1596
01:26:02,320 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 1: acted like I don't really know what to say. It

1597
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:08,120
Speaker 1: looked like it was a low budget kind of in

1598
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:08,559
Speaker 1: a way.

1599
01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:12,759
Speaker 2: I agree with you that I thought visually they did

1600
01:26:12,920 --> 01:26:17,040
Speaker 2: an incredible job with recreating all I don't I actually

1601
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:20,760
Speaker 2: in some cases, like with the ring camera footage of

1602
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:23,080
Speaker 2: her backing into the car, I wonder if they used

1603
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:25,679
Speaker 2: actual police footage of that, or they really did such

1604
01:26:25,680 --> 01:26:28,479
Speaker 2: a good job recreating visuals like that. I thought the

1605
01:26:28,600 --> 01:26:31,280
Speaker 2: visuals in the courtroom were great, of the crime scene,

1606
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:35,040
Speaker 2: of the house, everything like that. I thought they did

1607
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 2: a really good job It's exactly what I remembered from

1608
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:39,919
Speaker 2: covering the case and looking at the crime scene photos

1609
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:41,959
Speaker 2: casting I thought.

1610
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:44,679
Speaker 1: See, I disagree, because I thought that that was super corny,

1611
01:26:45,120 --> 01:26:50,679
Speaker 1: Like all of they showed news footage, CCTV footage and

1612
01:26:50,960 --> 01:26:54,360
Speaker 1: ring cam you know, personal security footage, and it was

1613
01:26:54,439 --> 01:26:58,880
Speaker 1: all re enacted, and they showed footage of like interviews

1614
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:01,480
Speaker 1: of her in jail and all this. It was all reenacted,

1615
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:06,080
Speaker 1: and I just I was thinking, like, why didn't they

1616
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 1: just use the real footage? But I guess there could

1617
01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:11,760
Speaker 1: have been a reason that they couldn't get to it.

1618
01:27:12,120 --> 01:27:16,519
Speaker 1: But the fact that they recreated footage, to me, is

1619
01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:19,680
Speaker 1: just weird. They put like a time stamp on it, like, oh,

1620
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:22,040
Speaker 1: this is what happened, and you're just like okay, but like,

1621
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:24,320
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1622
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:31,280
Speaker 2: My main problem with this overall was I thought, if

1623
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:34,400
Speaker 2: you just turned Lifetime on and this was on and

1624
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:37,240
Speaker 2: you had never heard of this story before, you would

1625
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:40,479
Speaker 2: have no idea what happened. I felt like I could

1626
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:44,000
Speaker 2: only follow the movie because I was so familiar with

1627
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:46,840
Speaker 2: the details of the case. It was kind of all

1628
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:49,360
Speaker 2: over the place, and they did a good job like

1629
01:27:49,439 --> 01:27:52,519
Speaker 2: alluding to you know, they explained his death. They explained

1630
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:55,480
Speaker 2: her to trials, not even that well the trial part.

1631
01:27:55,640 --> 01:27:58,719
Speaker 2: They explained their tumultuous relationship whatever. But I just felt

1632
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:01,800
Speaker 2: like it was so confusing. Yeah, it was.

1633
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:04,439
Speaker 1: It was a little like back and forth, back and

1634
01:28:04,479 --> 01:28:07,439
Speaker 1: forth the way they did it. But they had to because,

1635
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:11,640
Speaker 1: like I said, there were so many details. I thought

1636
01:28:12,040 --> 01:28:15,360
Speaker 1: the woman that played her, I thought she did a

1637
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:21,559
Speaker 1: good job showing her demeanor because Karen Reid. I mean,

1638
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:23,720
Speaker 1: obviously I don't know Karen Reid, but like she just

1639
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:26,320
Speaker 1: has a very specific kind of like demeanor to her,

1640
01:28:26,360 --> 01:28:28,200
Speaker 1: and I think the girl did a pretty good job.

1641
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:32,599
Speaker 1: I think that dude, like, could we just talk about

1642
01:28:32,640 --> 01:28:35,040
Speaker 1: she just had so much filler in her face it's

1643
01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 1: distracting to me.

1644
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:38,160
Speaker 2: Well, I was gonna say that too, because like I'm

1645
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:40,240
Speaker 2: not trying to sound rude against Karen read or anything,

1646
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:42,879
Speaker 2: but like you know, she was going through multiple trials

1647
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:45,960
Speaker 2: and her boyfriend just died, so like her face was gone,

1648
01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:48,559
Speaker 2: looking like she looked like she was a woman going

1649
01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:51,320
Speaker 2: through a rough patch in her life. And this lady

1650
01:28:51,360 --> 01:28:53,559
Speaker 2: had so much filler and both ocs in her face.

1651
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:56,240
Speaker 2: I mean, I really didn't think that lady looked anything

1652
01:28:56,320 --> 01:28:58,760
Speaker 2: like her at all, like even kind of and I

1653
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:02,439
Speaker 2: know casting can't be perfect with that, except the judge

1654
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:03,679
Speaker 2: was pretty perfect. Dude.

1655
01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:06,120
Speaker 1: The judge was the best part of the whole thing.

1656
01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:10,160
Speaker 1: It was so on point, and that judge is like

1657
01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:13,599
Speaker 1: such an asshole. Yeah, in real life, the judge. She

1658
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:17,519
Speaker 1: I remember her just just being like she was so

1659
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:20,000
Speaker 1: rough around the edges, and I just was like not

1660
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:22,920
Speaker 1: into her at all during the trial, But when I

1661
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:25,280
Speaker 1: saw her, I was like, hell, yes, they did such

1662
01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:27,200
Speaker 1: a good job with the casting of her.

1663
01:29:27,320 --> 01:29:29,479
Speaker 2: Well, they also put such a bad wig on her,

1664
01:29:29,520 --> 01:29:32,760
Speaker 2: which I didn't know was intentional to like, you know,

1665
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:36,280
Speaker 2: slam her or whatever, but I did think it was funny.

1666
01:29:37,160 --> 01:29:39,599
Speaker 2: I guess my other issue, I mean, whatever, you can't

1667
01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:41,720
Speaker 2: really do anything about the filler because that's just the

1668
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:44,240
Speaker 2: nature of the game anymore. And I've complained, but like.

1669
01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:46,720
Speaker 1: It's just like, are we gonna look back at this

1670
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:50,360
Speaker 1: period of time and think that it's just so obvious?

1671
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:53,080
Speaker 1: It just happened with stranger things too in season five,

1672
01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:56,800
Speaker 1: like like Millie Bobby Brown had so much filler in

1673
01:29:56,840 --> 01:29:59,960
Speaker 1: her face, like you can't even stop staring. How distract

1674
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:00,680
Speaker 1: acting it is.

1675
01:30:00,920 --> 01:30:03,559
Speaker 2: Well, I talked about that with Michelle Randolph in eighteen

1676
01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:05,679
Speaker 2: eight or not eighteen eight three in nineteen twenty three,

1677
01:30:06,040 --> 01:30:07,920
Speaker 2: because I think for the most part, they did a

1678
01:30:07,920 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 2: really good job cast in that show and making it

1679
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:12,680
Speaker 2: time accurate, and then like all of a sudden, they're like, oh,

1680
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:15,280
Speaker 2: let me introduce you my girlfriend, and I'm like, whoa,

1681
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:18,439
Speaker 2: this is not nineteen twenty three any longer. This girl

1682
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:21,120
Speaker 2: has so much stuff in her face, and how are

1683
01:30:21,120 --> 01:30:23,400
Speaker 2: we even going to act like she seriously lives in

1684
01:30:23,479 --> 01:30:25,480
Speaker 2: this time? It was unbelievable.

1685
01:30:26,240 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 1: So do you think, do you how what do you

1686
01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:33,600
Speaker 1: think the perspective of this film was?

1687
01:30:33,600 --> 01:30:34,480
Speaker 2: Was it?

1688
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:37,880
Speaker 1: Because I personally think it was from her perspective, like,

1689
01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:42,240
Speaker 1: this is what happened, and she was the one that

1690
01:30:42,320 --> 01:30:45,280
Speaker 1: was innocent, because I suppose you could take the same

1691
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:48,080
Speaker 1: evidence and kind of rewrite it as if it was

1692
01:30:48,160 --> 01:30:49,160
Speaker 1: like she was guilty.

1693
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:55,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did think it was primarily from her perspective.

1694
01:30:55,280 --> 01:30:59,000
Speaker 2: But I also don't like they mentioned some of the

1695
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:01,920
Speaker 2: other damning of evidence against the other people, but like

1696
01:31:02,080 --> 01:31:04,439
Speaker 2: not really, So that's what makes me think it's going

1697
01:31:04,479 --> 01:31:08,320
Speaker 2: the other way, like protecting the other people involved a

1698
01:31:08,320 --> 01:31:11,599
Speaker 2: little bit. There was not really mention of other things

1699
01:31:11,640 --> 01:31:13,760
Speaker 2: going on other than the how long to die in

1700
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:16,880
Speaker 2: the cold and the They.

1701
01:31:16,760 --> 01:31:18,719
Speaker 1: Didn't bring up the dog and all that shit.

1702
01:31:19,320 --> 01:31:22,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, they didn't bring up that family that owned the

1703
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 2: house didn't even come outside when the when the police

1704
01:31:26,360 --> 01:31:28,240
Speaker 2: were all there because their friend was dead on their

1705
01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:32,200
Speaker 2: front lawn, which was super weird. They did bring up

1706
01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:36,519
Speaker 2: the stuff with the investigator, Michael Proctor, and I thought

1707
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:43,200
Speaker 2: they really chose interesting tidbits of his text messages and

1708
01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:47,920
Speaker 2: stuff of what they were gonna reveal. They definitely got

1709
01:31:47,960 --> 01:31:52,439
Speaker 2: into him, like looking for nude photos of her and

1710
01:31:52,479 --> 01:31:55,960
Speaker 2: calling her a whack job, but they also like brought

1711
01:31:56,000 --> 01:31:58,400
Speaker 2: up this point that he was like calling her the

1712
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:03,200
Speaker 2: R word, which couldn't believe of all the terrible things

1713
01:32:03,240 --> 01:32:06,320
Speaker 2: he said, that was like the section they chose of

1714
01:32:06,720 --> 01:32:07,960
Speaker 2: things he was saying about her.

1715
01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:12,160
Speaker 1: I think, I think though, like I didn't watch the trial,

1716
01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:14,960
Speaker 1: like I watched pieces of it, but I didn't sit

1717
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:17,680
Speaker 1: there and watch it, and I thought that it was

1718
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:19,880
Speaker 1: good because you know, I just read about it all

1719
01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:23,360
Speaker 1: the time, and I thought that it's good to hear

1720
01:32:23,479 --> 01:32:26,720
Speaker 1: that guy like reading those text messages out loud and

1721
01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:29,320
Speaker 1: saying it in front of the jury, because you really

1722
01:32:29,360 --> 01:32:31,960
Speaker 1: are just like, this is so fricking inappropriate for a

1723
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:35,720
Speaker 1: cop to be doing this, Oh totally, and like we

1724
01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:38,800
Speaker 1: know it happens whatever, but like and the whole time

1725
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:41,080
Speaker 1: I was thinking, this guy is such an idiot, Like

1726
01:32:41,120 --> 01:32:45,120
Speaker 1: why would you text message that? Shit, Yeah, we're just dumb.

1727
01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:47,880
Speaker 2: We didn't even touch about that while we covered Brian Walsh,

1728
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:50,599
Speaker 2: but he was also an investigator on the Brian Walsh case,

1729
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:53,960
Speaker 2: and that like they were trying really hard to use

1730
01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:57,960
Speaker 2: the Karen Reid stuff, like he's inappropriate in the Brian

1731
01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:00,920
Speaker 2: Walsh case, but that never ended up coming her successfully

1732
01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:03,160
Speaker 2: for them. But he doesn't realize how this is going

1733
01:33:03,240 --> 01:33:07,080
Speaker 2: to affect his other cases moving forward. How stupid can

1734
01:33:07,120 --> 01:33:09,920
Speaker 2: you be? You're a cop, You literally know what people

1735
01:33:09,960 --> 01:33:11,760
Speaker 2: have access to and investigations.

1736
01:33:12,360 --> 01:33:15,360
Speaker 1: One thing I thought that was really good was because

1737
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:18,400
Speaker 1: because she has like Karen Reid is a little like

1738
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:22,559
Speaker 1: cold to me mm hm, And they did portray that

1739
01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:25,439
Speaker 1: well in the hospital and everything like that, Like she

1740
01:33:25,640 --> 01:33:28,680
Speaker 1: just doesn't she doesn't act like.

1741
01:33:30,760 --> 01:33:31,920
Speaker 2: She seems like.

1742
01:33:31,920 --> 01:33:34,880
Speaker 1: She's kind of like very like got a wall up

1743
01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:37,519
Speaker 1: and is very jaded and just doesn't act like a

1744
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:42,000
Speaker 1: person that you know is just having meltdowns, like she

1745
01:33:42,160 --> 01:33:45,440
Speaker 1: automatically went into like business mode to fight for herself.

1746
01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:51,519
Speaker 1: And but like that could just be how her personality is,

1747
01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:54,080
Speaker 1: Like you know people like that that just aren't very

1748
01:33:54,200 --> 01:33:59,599
Speaker 1: like lovey dovey and emotional and yeah, so I think

1749
01:33:59,600 --> 01:34:02,840
Speaker 1: that they portrayed that well because when she went to

1750
01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:08,600
Speaker 1: the hospital, it was just like like if you just

1751
01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:11,000
Speaker 1: put yourself in that perspective, you think you would be

1752
01:34:11,200 --> 01:34:14,400
Speaker 1: hysterical and like trying to fight to go. Like, I

1753
01:34:14,400 --> 01:34:17,479
Speaker 1: don't know, there just was like some disconnect, which I

1754
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:19,559
Speaker 1: thought was really happening in real life.

1755
01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:20,120
Speaker 2: You know.

1756
01:34:20,240 --> 01:34:23,320
Speaker 1: One thing I wanted to say was in the beginning

1757
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:27,640
Speaker 1: of the movie, they were portraying their relationship and it

1758
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:30,680
Speaker 1: seemed like it was like very like hot and sexual.

1759
01:34:30,840 --> 01:34:34,599
Speaker 1: Is that something that was mentioned, didn't. It just seem

1760
01:34:34,640 --> 01:34:40,080
Speaker 1: like it was they were just constantly like like wanting

1761
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:42,519
Speaker 1: to go have sexist a lot. It just seemed like

1762
01:34:42,560 --> 01:34:43,840
Speaker 1: a lot of that kind of talk.

1763
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:47,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, it did. But that could be the lifetime component

1764
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:50,080
Speaker 2: because everything they make needs to be like steamy for

1765
01:34:50,160 --> 01:34:52,400
Speaker 2: the horny old ladies, you know, so like that could

1766
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:54,640
Speaker 2: have just been that component. I don't really feel like

1767
01:34:55,880 --> 01:34:58,880
Speaker 2: their relationship came across as that sexual when they were

1768
01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:02,360
Speaker 2: describing it in Core. They were definitely in a relationship,

1769
01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:05,200
Speaker 2: but not that it was overly sexual. Like when I

1770
01:35:05,240 --> 01:35:08,200
Speaker 2: think of that, I think of Jody and Travis, right,

1771
01:35:08,280 --> 01:35:10,519
Speaker 2: Like when they were in court going through their text messages,

1772
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:13,240
Speaker 2: You're like, these people are sex freaks, obviously, like the

1773
01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:15,960
Speaker 2: way they talk to each other. Yeah, but like that

1774
01:35:16,040 --> 01:35:19,160
Speaker 2: never came across this. Something that really bothered me was

1775
01:35:19,160 --> 01:35:22,040
Speaker 2: when they were playing the voicemails of her screaming at him.

1776
01:35:22,080 --> 01:35:24,320
Speaker 2: She had a very the actress had a very intense

1777
01:35:24,360 --> 01:35:27,120
Speaker 2: Boston accent, and then in the rest of it she

1778
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:29,519
Speaker 2: had none at all, which I thought was so weird

1779
01:35:29,520 --> 01:35:32,559
Speaker 2: because Karen Reid has a pretty thick Boston accent.

1780
01:35:33,320 --> 01:35:35,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then those situations, I'm like, why aren't you

1781
01:35:35,840 --> 01:35:38,120
Speaker 1: using the real footage? Like I understand you might have

1782
01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:41,240
Speaker 1: to recreate footage if there's an actual person that's in

1783
01:35:41,320 --> 01:35:44,200
Speaker 1: it that's not in the film, but there might be

1784
01:35:44,200 --> 01:35:46,479
Speaker 1: a reason that they weren't allowed to use them for

1785
01:35:46,560 --> 01:35:52,560
Speaker 1: like legal reasons or something like that. Who was anybody

1786
01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:57,000
Speaker 1: like fighting about this on either side about this movie

1787
01:35:57,040 --> 01:36:00,240
Speaker 1: coming out that anybody help with it? How How did

1788
01:36:00,280 --> 01:36:01,080
Speaker 1: they receive it.

1789
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:04,920
Speaker 2: I didn't see anything. I mean, they're still in civil

1790
01:36:05,000 --> 01:36:07,400
Speaker 2: litigation right now, so I don't know if they can

1791
01:36:07,479 --> 01:36:09,840
Speaker 2: comment on stuff like this or if things like this

1792
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:11,920
Speaker 2: movie are going to be brought up in court right now.

1793
01:36:11,960 --> 01:36:14,960
Speaker 2: I mean, she is not anywhere near being done with

1794
01:36:15,320 --> 01:36:16,800
Speaker 2: being in court.

1795
01:36:17,400 --> 01:36:21,320
Speaker 1: Because one thing I did get to from this is

1796
01:36:21,360 --> 01:36:26,240
Speaker 1: that I felt I felt bad, and I always have,

1797
01:36:26,479 --> 01:36:29,360
Speaker 1: so this isn't a new feeling. But I did feel

1798
01:36:29,439 --> 01:36:36,679
Speaker 1: really bad for his mother because his mother lost both

1799
01:36:36,720 --> 01:36:40,880
Speaker 1: of her children. Now she lost her daughter who died

1800
01:36:41,240 --> 01:36:44,720
Speaker 1: from brain cancer, and now her son that died from this.

1801
01:36:46,040 --> 01:36:50,080
Speaker 1: Her daughter's husband died and the kids went to John

1802
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:53,559
Speaker 1: o'keefen was living with them. Now they don't. They lost

1803
01:36:53,640 --> 01:36:57,479
Speaker 1: both their mom and dad and now they're adoptive dad.

1804
01:36:57,760 --> 01:36:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, their orphan two times.

1805
01:37:00,479 --> 01:37:02,960
Speaker 1: So I feel bad. I felt really bad for the mother,

1806
01:37:03,040 --> 01:37:08,920
Speaker 1: and I felt really bad for his brother because and listen, like,

1807
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:11,080
Speaker 1: this is a movie, so this isn't real life. But

1808
01:37:12,680 --> 01:37:16,120
Speaker 1: I wonder how like it seemed very obvious to them

1809
01:37:16,280 --> 01:37:18,400
Speaker 1: what happened, and then when they went to trial and

1810
01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:20,519
Speaker 1: all this other stuff came out. I wonder if there

1811
01:37:20,600 --> 01:37:22,519
Speaker 1: was ever a moment of doubt in their mind that

1812
01:37:22,520 --> 01:37:26,920
Speaker 1: they were like, we chastised this woman and it's possible

1813
01:37:26,960 --> 01:37:29,920
Speaker 1: that she didn't do it.

1814
01:37:29,920 --> 01:37:32,240
Speaker 2: It's just hard to say because I feel like they

1815
01:37:32,280 --> 01:37:35,760
Speaker 2: were really listening to the friends that were involved. But

1816
01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:38,680
Speaker 2: then obviously when it came to court, all that information

1817
01:37:38,800 --> 01:37:40,800
Speaker 2: came out that didn't paint them in the best light,

1818
01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:43,840
Speaker 2: and you have to wonder, like, I mean, at this point,

1819
01:37:43,920 --> 01:37:46,519
Speaker 2: I doubt anybody's gonna get convicted in this case unless

1820
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:49,840
Speaker 2: anybody makes a confession or has proof otherwise. Right but

1821
01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:51,960
Speaker 2: right now, I think this is just where it's gonna lie.

1822
01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:54,800
Speaker 2: And it's not fair to the family because they're never

1823
01:37:54,840 --> 01:37:56,720
Speaker 2: gonna get justice for the death of their son.

1824
01:37:58,000 --> 01:38:02,240
Speaker 1: No, it's not and it's terrible. And then also in

1825
01:38:02,240 --> 01:38:06,519
Speaker 1: this movie, it kind of portrays them as like not

1826
01:38:09,040 --> 01:38:11,479
Speaker 1: like they just shunned her out real fast, which if

1827
01:38:11,800 --> 01:38:13,519
Speaker 1: that is what it is, then that's fine.

1828
01:38:13,760 --> 01:38:17,519
Speaker 2: But if you're being told by everybody and this woman's

1829
01:38:17,560 --> 01:38:20,120
Speaker 2: going to trial for it, that this woman killed your son,

1830
01:38:20,280 --> 01:38:22,520
Speaker 2: I don't think you're gonna be so sympathetic.

1831
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:25,320
Speaker 1: And I guess this is realistic, And because you know,

1832
01:38:25,439 --> 01:38:29,280
Speaker 1: they did make it a point to have John o'keef

1833
01:38:29,400 --> 01:38:31,840
Speaker 1: talking to his brother and saying like I think I

1834
01:38:31,920 --> 01:38:34,040
Speaker 1: might want to marry this girl and this and that,

1835
01:38:34,200 --> 01:38:39,200
Speaker 1: and it seemed like his mom and his brother were

1836
01:38:39,280 --> 01:38:42,040
Speaker 1: like into it, like they were like, oh, she's great,

1837
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:46,760
Speaker 1: Like marry her. Right, Yeah, it's not like it's not

1838
01:38:46,960 --> 01:38:49,400
Speaker 1: like as soon as this happened, they were like, it's

1839
01:38:49,439 --> 01:38:53,960
Speaker 1: definitely her. She treats him like crap. Like, So that's

1840
01:38:53,960 --> 01:38:57,519
Speaker 1: what was weird to me, because I feel like, I

1841
01:38:57,520 --> 01:39:00,840
Speaker 1: guess the reason I'm saying this is because she she

1842
01:39:01,040 --> 01:39:03,280
Speaker 1: had been a presence in those children's lives for a

1843
01:39:03,320 --> 01:39:08,599
Speaker 1: couple of years, and like, was it really like if

1844
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:10,840
Speaker 1: she wasn't involved, was it the best thing to pull

1845
01:39:10,880 --> 01:39:13,519
Speaker 1: her away to when she was acting almost like as

1846
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:15,920
Speaker 1: she was sleeping at his house almost every night and

1847
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:20,080
Speaker 1: acting like a mother figure towards them. I mean, those

1848
01:39:20,160 --> 01:39:22,519
Speaker 1: kids were like the girls' ages, right, they're like young,

1849
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:23,240
Speaker 1: they're little kids.

1850
01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:24,120
Speaker 2: They're little kids.

1851
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:29,040
Speaker 1: So I mean, just think about I mean, the kids

1852
01:39:29,040 --> 01:39:32,080
Speaker 1: are the biggest victims in the whole thing, for sure,

1853
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:36,360
Speaker 1: but just all that going on, it just like it's

1854
01:39:36,400 --> 01:39:40,439
Speaker 1: just a very unfortunate situation and you leave it just

1855
01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:42,760
Speaker 1: being like I don't even know what the solution is

1856
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:48,120
Speaker 1: because you can't really pinpoint one hundred percent who who

1857
01:39:48,160 --> 01:39:49,040
Speaker 1: the bad guy is.

1858
01:39:49,960 --> 01:39:53,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, because even if they left both of her trials

1859
01:39:53,320 --> 01:39:56,920
Speaker 2: thinking that she still did it, and I mean, the

1860
01:39:57,400 --> 01:39:59,880
Speaker 2: thing is with this case is we're just never gonna know.

1861
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:02,960
Speaker 2: But they can't prove beyond reasonable doubt that she did it,

1862
01:40:03,000 --> 01:40:05,760
Speaker 2: which is why she got off. So like, even if

1863
01:40:05,800 --> 01:40:09,120
Speaker 2: his family leaves the trial still thinking she's guilty for it,

1864
01:40:09,680 --> 01:40:12,000
Speaker 2: they should still be mad at the police for watching

1865
01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:14,920
Speaker 2: the investigation that we're in this place where we don't know.

1866
01:40:15,840 --> 01:40:18,280
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they should totally be mad at the police.

1867
01:40:18,320 --> 01:40:24,280
Speaker 1: This is this is a hundred I mean, like they

1868
01:40:24,439 --> 01:40:28,880
Speaker 1: have to have to be leaving because the first trial

1869
01:40:28,920 --> 01:40:30,960
Speaker 1: you had a hung jewelry, which means that there were

1870
01:40:31,160 --> 01:40:34,840
Speaker 1: most of the maybe not most, but the people there

1871
01:40:35,200 --> 01:40:37,719
Speaker 1: couldn't decide. So there were definitely people in that jury

1872
01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:40,400
Speaker 1: that thought that she was not guilty. And then the

1873
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:43,920
Speaker 1: second trial you convinced every single person on that jury

1874
01:40:43,960 --> 01:40:46,920
Speaker 1: that she was not guilty. You have to leave and

1875
01:40:47,040 --> 01:40:49,320
Speaker 1: just be like is it me? Like why are all

1876
01:40:49,320 --> 01:40:52,160
Speaker 1: these external people thinking she didn't do it? But I

1877
01:40:52,240 --> 01:40:53,000
Speaker 1: think she did it?

1878
01:40:53,560 --> 01:40:53,800
Speaker 2: You know what?

1879
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:57,240
Speaker 1: I mean, like they have to be that thinking about.

1880
01:40:57,000 --> 01:40:59,360
Speaker 2: Me if it could be influenced. I mean, really think

1881
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:02,840
Speaker 2: about like if I got killed and the police were

1882
01:41:02,840 --> 01:41:06,280
Speaker 2: telling you every day Ricky did it, Like at some

1883
01:41:06,400 --> 01:41:08,439
Speaker 2: point that might get in your head and you might

1884
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:11,240
Speaker 2: not be able to pull yourself back. I just feel

1885
01:41:11,280 --> 01:41:14,960
Speaker 2: I just it's just such a terrible situation. And even

1886
01:41:15,000 --> 01:41:15,559
Speaker 2: for the guy.

1887
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:20,080
Speaker 1: I mean, like, and I've said this before, for I mean,

1888
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:22,639
Speaker 1: he whatever, he could have been a jerk from time

1889
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:24,720
Speaker 1: to time or whatever, but like he seems like he

1890
01:41:24,840 --> 01:41:27,519
Speaker 1: was like a super decent human being. Like who takes

1891
01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:32,760
Speaker 1: what single guy goes to raise children like that? That's

1892
01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:34,400
Speaker 1: like a that's like a lot, you know.

1893
01:41:35,120 --> 01:41:38,600
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, one hundred percent. I just this case is

1894
01:41:38,680 --> 01:41:40,760
Speaker 2: just so messy in all aspects. And I mean we're

1895
01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:42,679
Speaker 2: just gonna be seeing it in the news for a while.

1896
01:41:42,920 --> 01:41:45,280
Speaker 2: It's still coming up things about the dog thinks about

1897
01:41:45,320 --> 01:41:47,519
Speaker 2: her SUV being up for auction, you know, like we're

1898
01:41:47,520 --> 01:41:49,360
Speaker 2: gonna be seeing this for a long time.

1899
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:52,400
Speaker 1: They yeah, and they didn't focus on that Jen McKay

1900
01:41:52,640 --> 01:41:56,960
Speaker 1: person and off because she is she's to me, there's

1901
01:41:57,040 --> 01:42:00,479
Speaker 1: like some something like lingering over her that makes me

1902
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:02,800
Speaker 1: feel like she was involved, Like I don't know.

1903
01:42:03,320 --> 01:42:06,960
Speaker 2: I feel like, because the movie title is literally accused

1904
01:42:07,080 --> 01:42:10,000
Speaker 2: the Karen Reid story, it is gonna be primarily from

1905
01:42:10,000 --> 01:42:12,640
Speaker 2: her perspective. But I just would have thought with that

1906
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:15,519
Speaker 2: in mind that they would go harder on the other people.

1907
01:42:15,560 --> 01:42:17,679
Speaker 2: But maybe they can't because it could be a matter

1908
01:42:17,760 --> 01:42:21,719
Speaker 2: of defamation and whatever. So I thought that was interesting.

1909
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:23,720
Speaker 2: I also thought it was interesting her dad was kind

1910
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:25,760
Speaker 2: of like a main character in this movie, and he

1911
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:30,400
Speaker 2: did come up in investigative details, but not as much

1912
01:42:30,479 --> 01:42:34,240
Speaker 2: as they're portraying him in this film. And also they

1913
01:42:34,280 --> 01:42:37,040
Speaker 2: had like this weird cameo of Turtle Boy just like

1914
01:42:37,200 --> 01:42:40,800
Speaker 2: talking to people. But that's not him, right, No, it

1915
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:43,360
Speaker 2: wasn't him, and I wonder what his thoughts are being

1916
01:42:43,400 --> 01:42:46,080
Speaker 2: portrayed like that. But it was kind of so random.

1917
01:42:46,280 --> 01:42:49,040
Speaker 2: This is where I'm talking about though, Like they didn't

1918
01:42:49,040 --> 01:42:52,360
Speaker 2: do a good enough job in the storytelling. They just

1919
01:42:52,479 --> 01:42:54,559
Speaker 2: kind of like it went to commercial break and then

1920
01:42:54,600 --> 01:42:56,439
Speaker 2: it came back and it was Turtle Boy talking to

1921
01:42:56,479 --> 01:43:00,519
Speaker 2: his followers or streamers or whatever, and he was just

1922
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:01,679
Speaker 2: like there and then he went away.

1923
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:05,479
Speaker 1: And I mean, I thought it was good though, because

1924
01:43:05,479 --> 01:43:08,080
Speaker 1: they were showing that he was like an integral part

1925
01:43:08,160 --> 01:43:13,280
Speaker 1: of like her acquittal, because he started hearing about the

1926
01:43:13,280 --> 01:43:15,720
Speaker 1: case and was just like, this is bullshit, Like what

1927
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:17,960
Speaker 1: are you talking about right now? And he's the one

1928
01:43:18,000 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 1: that like because when you when you watch the news,

1929
01:43:21,600 --> 01:43:25,559
Speaker 1: all it tells you is that she's accused of hitting him,

1930
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:27,840
Speaker 1: and you don't get to hear all those details like that.

1931
01:43:28,080 --> 01:43:33,799
Speaker 1: So it's it's one of these you know, journalism getting

1932
01:43:33,880 --> 01:43:37,800
Speaker 1: reaching people and having people form an opinion about it.

1933
01:43:38,880 --> 01:43:42,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, overall, I thought it was bad, but

1934
01:43:42,760 --> 01:43:47,800
Speaker 2: I also enjoyed watching it, and I you know, they.

1935
01:43:47,840 --> 01:43:50,960
Speaker 1: They did as well and said it had Hallmark movie vibes,

1936
01:43:51,000 --> 01:43:52,479
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, the same shit.

1937
01:43:53,240 --> 01:43:58,600
Speaker 2: It's it's basically it's different companies, same yeah, same exact thing. Like. So,

1938
01:43:59,560 --> 01:44:03,760
Speaker 2: I thought it was a very typical Lifetime movie. To

1939
01:44:03,840 --> 01:44:06,000
Speaker 2: your point, I think they over sexualized some of it

1940
01:44:06,080 --> 01:44:07,720
Speaker 2: to try to juice it up for the horny old

1941
01:44:07,800 --> 01:44:12,479
Speaker 2: ladies watching Lifetime. But I did think the storytelling could

1942
01:44:12,479 --> 01:44:14,759
Speaker 2: have been a little better. But at the same time,

1943
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:18,080
Speaker 2: in their defense, they only have ninety minutes to show

1944
01:44:18,120 --> 01:44:23,719
Speaker 2: this incredibly complicated thing, So I'm interested in other cases

1945
01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:25,720
Speaker 2: they're going to be covering. We already talked about on

1946
01:44:25,760 --> 01:44:28,839
Speaker 2: YouTube live how disrespectful the cast of the Idaho murder

1947
01:44:29,280 --> 01:44:32,920
Speaker 2: film or episode or whatever they're making right now.

1948
01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:36,679
Speaker 1: I mean, I go back and forth with this because

1949
01:44:36,760 --> 01:44:39,400
Speaker 1: it's just for example, for this Karen Reid one, it's

1950
01:44:39,479 --> 01:44:44,280
Speaker 1: just like the family is like trying to grieve and stuff,

1951
01:44:44,320 --> 01:44:46,880
Speaker 1: and now it's like you have to deal with the

1952
01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:50,920
Speaker 1: additional stress of how you who plays you as an

1953
01:44:50,960 --> 01:44:55,439
Speaker 1: actress or an actor, and how you're being portrayed in

1954
01:44:55,520 --> 01:44:58,840
Speaker 1: the story. You know, well, I don't care about the

1955
01:44:58,840 --> 01:45:01,479
Speaker 1: Proctor guy, but like the the mom and the brother

1956
01:45:01,560 --> 01:45:02,000
Speaker 1: and stuff.

1957
01:45:02,000 --> 01:45:06,080
Speaker 2: It's just like this also, isn't the only movie, Like

1958
01:45:06,120 --> 01:45:10,000
Speaker 2: they're making a major movie with Elizabeth Banks playing her,

1959
01:45:10,720 --> 01:45:13,479
Speaker 2: So there's going to be an actual feature film coming

1960
01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:15,759
Speaker 2: out about the case.

1961
01:45:16,040 --> 01:45:18,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that I'd be interested in that one too.

1962
01:45:19,800 --> 01:45:23,920
Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy? Like this Karen Reid lady is just

1963
01:45:24,000 --> 01:45:29,479
Speaker 1: like a normal middle class person living in the Boston area.

1964
01:45:29,520 --> 01:45:32,800
Speaker 1: To think like years later someone like Elizabeth Banks would

1965
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:35,120
Speaker 1: be playing you in a movie. It's just life is

1966
01:45:35,200 --> 01:45:36,200
Speaker 1: so wild.

1967
01:45:36,400 --> 01:45:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And people like I don't know, I have no

1968
01:45:38,920 --> 01:45:41,080
Speaker 2: idea how this movie came about. If she sold her

1969
01:45:41,080 --> 01:45:43,880
Speaker 2: life rights or whatever to tell this, or they're just

1970
01:45:43,960 --> 01:45:46,880
Speaker 2: going off of public record and telling the story. But

1971
01:45:47,040 --> 01:45:50,320
Speaker 2: like you have to think, if Karen Reid really is innocent,

1972
01:45:50,360 --> 01:45:53,080
Speaker 2: and like she was not convicted, so she is technically

1973
01:45:53,080 --> 01:45:56,160
Speaker 2: an innocent person, what is she going to do for

1974
01:45:56,200 --> 01:45:58,080
Speaker 2: work the rest of her life? She was like teaching

1975
01:45:58,160 --> 01:46:01,160
Speaker 2: finance classes. You think she's gonna go to being a teacher.

1976
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:03,920
Speaker 2: She's kind of too high profile for this.

1977
01:46:04,080 --> 01:46:06,840
Speaker 1: He does go back, he doesn't need to. People want

1978
01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:11,240
Speaker 1: her story. It's just funny to think about because like

1979
01:46:11,360 --> 01:46:14,959
Speaker 1: our friend Amy Loughran, like she had a super famous

1980
01:46:15,000 --> 01:46:17,719
Speaker 1: actress playing her in her TV movie.

1981
01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:21,160
Speaker 2: Right, that wasn't even a TV movie. That was like

1982
01:46:21,160 --> 01:46:22,200
Speaker 2: a legit movie.

1983
01:46:23,120 --> 01:46:25,519
Speaker 1: It was like Netflix, like a Netflix movie.

1984
01:46:25,600 --> 01:46:25,760
Speaker 2: Right.

1985
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:28,280
Speaker 1: It was nominated for awards and so it was at

1986
01:46:28,280 --> 01:46:30,680
Speaker 1: the movie theater and everything. I think it was just

1987
01:46:30,720 --> 01:46:33,719
Speaker 1: on Netflix, but it was not yeah for stuff that year,

1988
01:46:34,000 --> 01:46:38,360
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. So, I mean it's just like it's so

1989
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:41,479
Speaker 1: crazy to just we always ask her, what's what is

1990
01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:45,519
Speaker 1: that woman's name, Jessica chest Scene or something. Yeah. So

1991
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:51,240
Speaker 1: it's just like you have someone portraying you, like who's

1992
01:46:51,280 --> 01:46:52,559
Speaker 1: going to play you in a movie?

1993
01:46:52,640 --> 01:46:53,040
Speaker 2: Kind of thing.

1994
01:46:53,080 --> 01:46:54,080
Speaker 1: It's just so nuts.

1995
01:46:55,160 --> 01:46:59,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is weird. I think visually, of all actresses,

1996
01:46:59,439 --> 01:47:03,280
Speaker 2: Andrea Matteo would have played Karen Reid the best. She's

1997
01:47:03,280 --> 01:47:05,479
Speaker 2: from the Sopranos. I don't know how familiar you are

1998
01:47:05,520 --> 01:47:09,280
Speaker 2: with her, but they look very similar and they're around

1999
01:47:09,280 --> 01:47:11,160
Speaker 2: the same age, and I think that would have been

2000
01:47:11,240 --> 01:47:14,920
Speaker 2: the most spot on casting. I'm curious how they got

2001
01:47:14,960 --> 01:47:17,960
Speaker 2: to Elizabeth Banks where if it's Elizabeth Banks project and

2002
01:47:18,000 --> 01:47:20,360
Speaker 2: she was like, I want to play this role or whatever.

2003
01:47:20,400 --> 01:47:23,160
Speaker 2: But I'm sure that'll come out in the next couple

2004
01:47:23,160 --> 01:47:25,040
Speaker 2: of years and we'll see exactly what they do.

2005
01:47:25,400 --> 01:47:30,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that time until the.

2006
01:47:29,880 --> 01:47:35,960
Speaker 2: Next Terrible TV will recap for you guys. In the meantime,

2007
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:40,200
Speaker 2: you should watch Almah Studd on Netflix. It's a retally relevant,

2008
01:47:40,600 --> 01:47:44,000
Speaker 2: totally relevant another murder case. Jen told me to watch it,

2009
01:47:44,040 --> 01:47:46,880
Speaker 2: and it was indeed as ridiculous as this one was.

2010
01:47:47,600 --> 01:47:50,200
Speaker 2: All right, guys, we hope you enjoyed this bonus episode

2011
01:47:50,240 --> 01:47:51,439
Speaker 2: and we will see you next week.

2012
01:47:51,680 --> 01:47:57,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death.

2013
01:47:58,600 --> 01:48:03,320
Speaker 1: As a reminder is as a pathologist's assistant, I have

2014
01:48:03,360 --> 01:48:07,879
Speaker 1: a master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.

2015
01:48:09,000 --> 01:48:11,160
Speaker 1: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed

2016
01:48:11,240 --> 01:48:14,880
Speaker 1: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of

2017
01:48:14,920 --> 01:48:20,120
Speaker 1: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social

2018
01:48:20,160 --> 01:48:23,679
Speaker 1: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based

2019
01:48:23,720 --> 01:48:27,639
Speaker 1: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make

2020
01:48:27,840 --> 01:48:32,519
Speaker 1: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember

2021
01:48:32,560 --> 01:48:35,679
Speaker 1: that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed

2022
01:48:35,680 --> 01:48:38,320
Speaker 1: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those

2023
01:48:38,360 --> 01:48:42,120
Speaker 1: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having

2024
01:48:42,200 --> 01:48:46,160
Speaker 1: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a

2025
01:48:46,200 --> 01:48:50,559
Speaker 1: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent

2026
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:55,559
Speaker 1: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and

2027
01:48:55,680 --> 01:49:00,240
Speaker 1: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or

2028
01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:02,559
Speaker 1: anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks