WEBVTT - Ep125 "Why do brains need friends?" (with Ben Rein) 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:09.600 Why do brains need friends, Why do human brains in 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:14.920 particular need social interaction, and how does that interaction affect 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:19.280 the brain? Our AI chatbots enough to scratch the social itch? 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:20.079 Why or why not? 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.000 And what do we love so much about real human 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.799 touch in person interaction, and for that matter, why do 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.800 we love dogs? From empathy and introversion, to social media 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.559 to isolation and what to do about it? We've got 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:39.680 it all this week with guest Ben Rain. Welcome to 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:43.440 Intercosmos with me David Eagleman. I'm a neuroscientist and author 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.880 at Stanford, and in these episodes we seek to understand 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:49.880 why and how our lives look the way they do. 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.240 Let's start with an experiment. In nineteen fifty eight, the 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:16.760 psychologist Harry Harlowe placed newborn monkeys in separate cages. 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.200 They were fed and kept warm. 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.600 And safe, but instead of a mother, each baby was 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.800 given a simple wire frame to cling to. The result 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:31.000 was heartbreaking. Even with food and shelter, the monkeys grew 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:36.320 anxious and withdrawn and sickly. They rocked themselves for comfort. 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.560 Many of them refused to eat. 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.920 It was a heartbreaking experiment, and what it surfaced is 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:45.960 even more evidence of something we probably already into it, 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:50.840 which is that food and protection isn't sufficient for survival 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:53.720 for a social brain like. 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:56.720 That of primates. We need connection. 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.960 Now, we often picture the brain as a demanded center 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:05.040 running the body from inside its sealed chamber. It's like 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:08.799 a solitary captain at the helm. But the right way 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.560 to think about it is that brains are like instruments 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:16.600 in a symphony. We're all evolved to play in harmony 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.400 with others. In fact, there's a whole field now of 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:24.760 neuroscience known as social neuroscience, which examines all the circuitry 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:30.600 involved with representing other people representing each other. So every 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:36.799 shared smile, every moment of eye contact, every active empathy, 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.920 these are all massively important to the functioning of the 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:44.320 nervous system from the very start of life. Connection is 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.520 a sort of biological fuel. Babies who are held and 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:54.720 comforted develop more resilient neural networks. Adults with deep and 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:59.240 trusting relationships they live longer, they heal faster, they handle 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:04.760 stress more effectively, and studies generally show that chronic loneliness 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.480 is as harmful to health as smoking in terms of 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.799 heart disease, stroke, diabetes, depression, anxiety, and so on. 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.720 So we are built to connect. 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:21.920 Yet here we are in an age of unprecedented connection digitally, 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:26.760 and at the same time we have unprecedented social isolation. 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:31.640 Unlike all humans who came before us. We text instead 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:36.000 of talk, we scroll instead of strolling with a friend. 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:40.200 We're all surrounded by people online, yet many people feel 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:46.800 completely alone. So we've been living in a massive technocultural shift. 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.720 But in today's context, the thing I want to emphasize 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:52.640 is the importance of this from the point of view 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.440 of the brain. We can see the effects of loneliness 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.600 in brain scans. We can measure this in stress hormones, 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.240 we can trace it in the immune system. Now, why 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:06.520 does the brain crave connection so strongly? Why does it 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:11.400 reward us for being together and punish us for isolation. 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:15.040 What role does empathy play in keeping us healthy? And 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:19.359 how do our relationships with our friends or partners, or 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.480 children or even dogs. How does this modify the architecture 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.839 of the brain. These are the questions that my guest today, 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:31.000 neuroscientist Ben Rain, dives into in his new book Why 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.880 Brains Need Friends, which comes out this week. The book 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.640 is an important reminder that our minds are not soloists, 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:43.120 but symphony players, and that thriving in a post interaction 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:47.479 world means relearning how to live and connect like this 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.920 social creatures that we are. As a side note, Ben 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.000 and I teach a class together at Stanford called how 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.159 to Communicate Science, in which we talk about books and 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:01.000 videos and podcasts and television and social media. And Ben 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.920 is excellent at breaking down the science and representing it 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.320 accurately and concisely. So it's a pleasure to welcome my 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:15.280 colleague Ben to the podcast today. Before we get started 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:19.320 about the neuroscience of social brains, the thing I want 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:21.920 to ask you is you describe in the book that 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.599 we live in a post interaction world. 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:27.320 So what do you mean by that? First off, excited 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.159 to be here, This is awesome, good to see you. 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:31.640 The post interaction world, as I refer to it, is 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:35.440 basically describing that we are becoming less and less social. 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.720 We are spending less time together interacting. 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:39.880 I mean, the fact that we are virtual right now 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.080 is sort of a testament to that. But just a 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.000 variety of changes have led us down this path of 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:48.880 being less connected, and it kind of, you know, you 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:53.640 could point to a number of scapegoats. The COVID nineteen 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.400 pandemic was a huge one, and I actually think that 0:05:56.440 --> 0:06:00.560 extended period of isolation sort of reset or shifted our 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.760 expectations for social interaction, because going in, you know, in 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.480 twenty nineteen, we all had a social life. We all 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.119 saw our friends let's say, once twice, three times a week. 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:14.279 Then that was just completely demolished, just gone. So during 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:18.040 those subsequent few years where we had less interactions, our 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.719 expectations shifted our brain. Our brains are prediction machines, and 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.440 so we spent all this time in isolation, and so 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.400 we started to not expect to see our friends once 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.520 or twice or three times a week, which, by the way, 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:33.160 the fact that we weren't seeing them was upbending our expectations, 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.080 which is why it was so disturbing in the beginning. 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.599 But then maybe gradually we got kind of used to it. 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:41.520 We reset our lives a bit, and now life is restored. 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.920 COVID's over. We're back out in the normal world interacting 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.640 as we used to. But our brains have shifted from 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.360 expecting one, two or three interactions a week to maybe 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:54.359 expecting one interaction every two weeks or once a month, 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.440 and so that's a big part of this post interaction 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.720 world I refer to, and I think that's very bad 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:04.200 because shifted expectations don't mean shifted needs. You know, just 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.799 like sleep or nutrition, socializing is a really core pillar 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.440 of what drives the brain and what supports our health. 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:12.680 And you know, while we may not expect to interact 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:14.920 three times a week, most of us would be better 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.160 for it. So, you know, but on top of COVID 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:17.920 is also. 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:19.040 You know, remote work. 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:22.520 Many of these societal shifts that happened because of COVID, 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:24.840 you know, people got used to working from home. We 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:27.280 had the rise of things like instacart, where you could 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:29.320 pick up your groceries instead of actually going in the 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.200 store yourself and talking to the cashier and whatnot. And 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.600 there's just this automation of essentially everything you could do. 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:37.720 You know, there's telemedicine, you can tour a house, you 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.160 can you know, instead of having to go to the bank, 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.200 you could do it online. Everything that used to involve 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:47.120 a human generally doesn't nowadays. And so it's important for 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:49.320 us to recognize the value of interaction in this post 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:50.360 interaction world. 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.480 So from a neuroscience point, of view, why do we 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:54.800 need interaction? 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.280 So I'm going to start with the evolutionary perspective. If 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:03.280 you think back hundreds of thousands or millions of years, humans, 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.480 like many animals on Earth, survive best in groups. 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:08.000 We are really. 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:11.120 Good at hunting and defending ourselves when we're together. And 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:12.880 part of the reasons for that is we have all 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.600 these features in our bodies that allow us to work 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.760 so well together, like our eyebrows, which we can emote expressions, 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.760 and the white part of our eye, the sclera, which 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:23.960 allows us to tell where other people are looking. 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:25.760 And of course that's super helpful. 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:29.080 You can basically read someone's mind and infer what they're 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.160 thinking by recognizing the direction of their eyes. By the way, 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:35.160 that's not standard across the animal kingdom. Humans are one 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.360 of the only species that have whites Clara. Anyhow, all 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:41.679 that to say, since we survive better in groups, our 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.000 brains are built in a way that reward us for 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.800 social interaction, because how would you get a species to 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.960 stick together, Well, you can get them to stick together 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:54.560 if being around each other is pleasant and rewarding. So, 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:59.000 like all social species, and by that I mean any 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.679 animals that existing, we have social reward systems in our brain, 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.640 where being around others drives the release and the activation 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:11.000 of brain systems that are basically rewarding and reinforcing, so 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.280 that we want to be around others more frequently. It's 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.160 by reinforcing, you know, in the psychological sense, when something 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.600 is pleasant or nutritional, food is very good for you, 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:22.480 or provides a lot of nutrients, a lot of sugars 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.840 like chocolate, it drives the release of things like dopamine, 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:30.400 which keeps us coming back. That's reinforcing, and socializing drives 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.959 the release of dopamine and other rewarding neurotransmitters just the same. 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.520 So beyond the reward system, what's going on with social 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:39.120 interaction in the brain. 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:44.280 Yes, so there's two main things. Number one, socializing is 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.560 just supportive for brain health. And if you think about 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.560 the brain like a muscle, that the more you exercise it, 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:54.920 the more it grows and strengthens. Socializing is really great 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:57.600 exercise for the brain. It's not a simple task to 0:09:57.640 --> 0:09:59.719 take on. You have to read the body language to 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:02.040 enter for these statements and think for your responses, and 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:05.960 you know, coordinate your own movements and everything while interpreting 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:10.959 their behavior. It's really not easy, and so it's good 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.680 exercise for the brain, and it may lead to the 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.880 development of new synapses and the strengthening of existing synapses, 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.720 which is sort of the way that the brain exercises 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.640 and strengthens. And potentially, as a consequence of this, people 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:26.400 who live more social lives and who engage with others 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:29.600 more literally have larger brains. They have more gray matter, 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.360 and that's a great selling point for a person like 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.000 me who wants to encourage others to connect more. But 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.320 it also has real consequences, not in that like you 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.040 immediately become smarter because you have a bigger brain, but 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.720 as we age, having this added gray matter can serve 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:50.080 as this cognitive reserve, which can make us more resilient 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:52.600 through aging and less vulnerable to dementia. 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:53.679 Quick interjection. 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.800 Cognitive reserve is this concept that as your brain, let's say, 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:02.680 degenerates with age, you've got all this backup material. You 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:04.880 have sort of a larger hard drive that you can 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:06.839 depend on on cognitive reserve. 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:08.599 That the way that I like to describe it, or 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:09.800 the way that I refer to it in the book 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.760 is you think about a battalion of ten thousand troops 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.160 going into a battle and losing one hundred troops, well, 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.360 going into the next battle, they'll be still quite strong 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.319 and powerful. But if it's a battalion of five hundred 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.400 troops and they lose one hundred, it's a big difference. 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.719 And so having this cognitive reserve, all this build up 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:33.720 extra brain tissue, will make you more resilient as that 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.199 brain tissue gradually declines and atrophies as we age, which 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.880 happens to everybody unfortunately exactly. 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.960 And by the way, what's interesting is that brain plasticity 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.680 is such an important part of this because you can 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:51.400 essentially build cognitive reserve by constantly challenging yourself with novelty, 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:55.600 with things that are tough, and that builds new roadways 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.160 and bridges, so that even as some things are dropping 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.360 out with time, you're building new ones. The interesting part 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.760 here is that the expression is that nothing is as 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:08.400 difficult for the brain as other people, which is to say, 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.920 other people provide really good fuel for your brain to 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:13.280 rewire and so on. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.760 Why is that, Well, like I said, it's you know, 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:20.800 it's challenging. Socializing is not easy. It comes easier for 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.719 some people than others, but it really involves a lot 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:25.400 of executive control. 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:26.920 You have to really be tuned in. 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.840 And actually, on that note, there's a really interesting study 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.760 where they basically did a social intervention in older people 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.559 I believe they were folks living in retirement homes sixty 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:39.960 five plus age group, and what they found was that 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.319 when they socialized more, they did brain scans and they 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.760 found that there was an increased activity in this salience network, 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:50.040 which is a cluster of brain areas that work together 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:53.520 to basically pay attention to the outer world. And it 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.480 makes perfect sense because if you're sitting and you're watching TV, 0:12:57.440 --> 0:12:59.800 do you think that salience network is really coming online? 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.040 You're paying attention a little bit, but it's not engaging 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:02.880 you in the way that. 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:08.560 Really the outcome of your behaviors has a consequence. And 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.440 when you're engaging with someone else, you really have to 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.200 tune in because you might embarrass yourself, you might insult them. 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:15.480 There's a lot more at risk. 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:21.600 And again, evolutionarily, social interactions are really important. You know, 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.880 if we are not liked, if we are cast out 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.280 from our tribe, it can have very serious consequences. You know, 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:30.920 a million years ago, those consequences may be death, you're 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:32.520 easy prey, you're hunted alone. 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.760 So let's turn to isolation. What happens with isolation. 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:36.920 In the brain. 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:43.160 Yeah, so isolation is effectively processed in the brain as stress. 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:44.760 There there's more to it than this, of course, but 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.280 we do not like being alone. This also may have 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.840 evolutionary roots, because, like I just said, if you're cast 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.560 out from your tribe, the brain would be wise to 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.760 have a built in system that basically makes you uncomfortable 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.480 until you find community again for the sake of your survival. 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:06.680 But when we are stressed, there's a stress is not 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.040 good for you. And studies have shown that when people 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.640 are exposed to isolation, like if you know controlled environments, 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.520 person goes into a NASA space station by themselves, they 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.160 know what they're doing thirty days, but during the thirty days, 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.520 their cortisol levels will progressively rise and they will remain elevated. 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:29.520 Cortisol being this stress hormone. It's glucocorticoid, meaning it drives 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.080 a stress response in the body. And then once they 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.720 exit and return to normal life and socialize again, their 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.760 cortisol levels will return to normal. Now, the thing is 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.440 cortisol in driving the stress response one of the things 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:46.120 that it does is it reduces inflammation. Because when we're stressed, 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.920 when we're being challenged by something like a Saber two 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.680 tiger coming after us, it would be helpful if we 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:54.080 didn't have inflammation in our bodies. 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.920 We need to be ready to fight, ready to take. 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:01.040 On the challenge. But with chronic stress, when cortisol levels 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:05.240 remain elevated for a long time, that anti inflammatory property 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:10.520 basically fades away because the tissues cannot always remain in 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:14.720 this anti inflammatory state. Eventually they become desensitized to the cortisol. 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:16.800 Just like you know, if you're stressed. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.400 For a long time, you can't remain in fight or 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.840 flight hyper vigilant for weeks, right, Eventually you just kind 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:23.240 of you desensitize to that. 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:25.760 So the reason that's bad. 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:33.080 Is because it means the cortisol's ability to reduce inflammation diminishes, 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.680 which means that it can lead to chronic inflammation in 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.600 chronic stress. With social isolation being a form of stress, 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:46.880 being chronically isolated can lead to effectively chronic inflammation and 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:48.800 basically a long term stress response. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:49.880 And that's really bad. 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:52.880 And the evidence for why that's so bad comes from 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:56.640 studies tracking people who are isolated. When you have chronic inflammation, 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.160 it interferes with the function of your tissues, and soeople 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.920 who are isolated for extended periods they're at higher risk 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:08.400 of dementia, heart disease, diabetes, and of course on the 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.360 mood side, depression and anxiety, suicidality. 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:13.800 It's really impactful. 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.320 And so I think that especially given what I mentioned 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:21.320 about this post interaction world, and of course it's not 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:26.000 that nobody's interacting anymore, but we are objectively most of 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:30.800 us interacting less. And the thing about loneliness and isolation 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.520 is that it's not a binary thing where it's like 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:38.760 I'm lonely and isolated or I am socialized. It's really 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.520 a continuum where you can have one interaction a month 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.640 or you can have five interactions a month. The person 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.800 having one interaction a month is objectively more isolated than 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.760 the person having five a month. And so given that 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:53.800 we've shifted in the way that we interact with one 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.640 another and engage with the world in general, I worry 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.800 that we may be leading ourselves into unecess story health 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:05.280 complications and anxiety and depression because of this stress response 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.159 that isolation induces. 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.439 So when people are socializing, their salience network is on. 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.640 It leads to a stronger brain. When people are isolated 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:15.360 leads to these stress responses. 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.760 What is your opinion about these. 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:23.240 Three D avatar chat bots that you can have friendships 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.439 or relationships with. This is taking over the world at 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.720 a very fast paced There are apparently a billion people 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:30.280 now with AI relationships. 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:31.320 What's your take on that. 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:34.840 I have a lot of thoughts on this, and I 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.040 haven't quite gotten to the point where I'm like, this 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:41.520 is my firm stance. But in general, there's something special 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:46.119 about human to human interaction. And there's many examples of this. 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.240 I mean, for one, if you think about like video gamers, 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.439 they could play against the route with the bot or 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.800 the computer people call it right, But instead people will 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.760 pay a monthly subscription to play against other humans even 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:00.000 though they're not interacting with them. 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:01.919 There's something special about that. 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.280 And there are studies that show where when people go 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.240 on websites that have like an AI chatbot that can 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.280 help you or a real human avatar, people are more 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.119 likely to recommend the website. 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:13.360 To others when there's a human involved. 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:18.679 There's just something valuable about that, and there are areas 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:22.200 of the brain in the context of social touch that 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.360 seem to be especially activated by human touch, and one 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.840 of those is called the posterior superior temporal sulcus. 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:32.960 And it's activated by touch. 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.359 And when people are touched by a robot, which sounds 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.960 kind of wild and freakish, but massage by a robot, 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:42.639 I should say, a foot massage from a robot. And 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:47.159 so this suggests that the brain has some ability to 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:51.080 distinguish the social nature of touch, which makes sense, right, Like, 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.159 right now I'm rubbing my feet on the carpet. My 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.640 brain is telling me, well, you know, there's no reason 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.639 to release oxytocin and bond with this carpet. It's a carpet, 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:02.080 it's not your wife, right. There's these areas of the 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.400 brain that manage this distinction. And I think when we're 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:08.680 having these chat interactions with these AI large language models, 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:12.800 I would imagine that for most people, the brain is 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.359 making that distinction, which may or may not be making 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:20.040 it less valuable, making it less exciting. But I do 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.680 think that we hold the keys to that barrier. 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:24.800 I think because. 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:29.000 There are studies where people have shown that basically people 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:33.520 who use AI chatbots more and have relationships with them, 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.880 believe that it's good for their health, whereas people who 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:39.800 don't think it's bad for us. And I'm one of 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:41.800 the people who I think it's bad for us because 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.480 I don't hear the AI chatbots as friends. And so 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.520 I think we do have this ability to make that 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:51.159 leap hurtle over that barrier and convince ourselves, yeah, this 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:55.199 chatbot cares about me. It's human like, it matters. What 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:57.800 it says matters. But I think that it would be 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:00.480 very I don't want to say dangerous. Maybe that's a 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.679 strong word, but it would be a bad idea for 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.199 us to allow ourselves to get there. Right now, we 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.520 are the very first generation of humans having these human 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:11.960 like interactions with these AI chatbots, and I think that 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.360 the way we behave and the way we treat them 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:19.000 will determine how our children, our grandchildren treat them, and 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:23.760 whether our grandchildren will maybe go into AI therapists instead 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:41.440 of human therapists because we may or may not accept them. 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.000 I will say I do think there's a great advantage 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.840 to AI therapists in the sense that they're available twenty 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.000 four to seven. And remember everything you've said, and they 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.520 never get distracted and they're just you know, I think 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.200 it's going to change the world and change suicide rates 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.280 to have things like AI therapists. But as far as 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:01.040 AI friends go this two things I want to mention. 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:06.720 One is they're getting better fast, and so they are 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.400 more and more like a person. 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:09.679 You know. 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:14.520 Grock released these three d avatars which are incredibly engaging 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.880 and so on. The reason I think this won't scratch 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:21.600 the itch totally is because in the end, you want 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.800 to take your wife or girlfriend or you know, someone 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.639 takes their boyfriend or their husband out to dinner with 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:30.920 other people and wants to do the foot massage and 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.280 wants to look at the stars with them and all 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.400 those sorts of things. So I think fundamentally there's going 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:40.320 to be this unfilled part and that's that's you know, 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:42.440 what we're talking about, is like what is it that 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.480 humans fulfill here. The second thing is I'm interested in 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:49.119 us getting back together in a year from now to 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:52.240 see where this has evolved to and to see whether 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:57.200 the chatbots get so good that they can actually activate 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:00.800 the same brain networks as you have another person. 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:03.320 And what they found was that this brain area it 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:06.280 was more active when people were receiving the massage from 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:07.760 a human than a robot. 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.719 Okay, so now let's return to the realm of humans entirely. 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:14.680 So tell us why social interaction is so important in childhood. 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:19.280 Yeah, so, as we grow up, we of course are 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.200 exposed to a bunch of interactions that probably many of 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:25.520 us don't remember, but those interactions through our early life 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:29.000 I play a critical role in shaping the development of 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:32.240 certain brain areas. So there is a just like there's 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.520 a sensitive period for a language where you know, we've 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:37.720 all seen a child pick up a language like this, 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:39.280 and then we try to learn a language as an 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:42.199 adult and it's just impossible, there's a sensitive period for 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:45.200