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Speaker 1: Why do brains need friends, Why do human brains in

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Speaker 1: particular need social interaction, and how does that interaction affect

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Speaker 1: the brain? Our AI chatbots enough to scratch the social itch?

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Speaker 2: Why or why not?

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Speaker 1: And what do we love so much about real human

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Speaker 1: touch in person interaction, and for that matter, why do

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Speaker 1: we love dogs? From empathy and introversion, to social media

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Speaker 1: to isolation and what to do about it? We've got

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Speaker 1: it all this week with guest Ben Rain. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Intercosmos with me David Eagleman. I'm a neuroscientist and author

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Speaker 1: at Stanford, and in these episodes we seek to understand

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Speaker 1: why and how our lives look the way they do.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with an experiment. In nineteen fifty eight, the

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Speaker 1: psychologist Harry Harlowe placed newborn monkeys in separate cages.

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Speaker 2: They were fed and kept warm.

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Speaker 1: And safe, but instead of a mother, each baby was

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Speaker 1: given a simple wire frame to cling to. The result

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Speaker 1: was heartbreaking. Even with food and shelter, the monkeys grew

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Speaker 1: anxious and withdrawn and sickly. They rocked themselves for comfort.

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Speaker 2: Many of them refused to eat.

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Speaker 1: It was a heartbreaking experiment, and what it surfaced is

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Speaker 1: even more evidence of something we probably already into it,

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Speaker 1: which is that food and protection isn't sufficient for survival

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Speaker 1: for a social brain like.

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Speaker 2: That of primates. We need connection.

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Speaker 1: Now, we often picture the brain as a demanded center

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Speaker 1: running the body from inside its sealed chamber. It's like

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Speaker 1: a solitary captain at the helm. But the right way

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Speaker 1: to think about it is that brains are like instruments

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Speaker 1: in a symphony. We're all evolved to play in harmony

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Speaker 1: with others. In fact, there's a whole field now of

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Speaker 1: neuroscience known as social neuroscience, which examines all the circuitry

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Speaker 1: involved with representing other people representing each other. So every

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Speaker 1: shared smile, every moment of eye contact, every active empathy,

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Speaker 1: these are all massively important to the functioning of the

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Speaker 1: nervous system from the very start of life. Connection is

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Speaker 1: a sort of biological fuel. Babies who are held and

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Speaker 1: comforted develop more resilient neural networks. Adults with deep and

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Speaker 1: trusting relationships they live longer, they heal faster, they handle

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Speaker 1: stress more effectively, and studies generally show that chronic loneliness

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Speaker 1: is as harmful to health as smoking in terms of

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Speaker 1: heart disease, stroke, diabetes, depression, anxiety, and so on.

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Speaker 2: So we are built to connect.

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Speaker 1: Yet here we are in an age of unprecedented connection digitally,

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Speaker 1: and at the same time we have unprecedented social isolation.

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Speaker 1: Unlike all humans who came before us. We text instead

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Speaker 1: of talk, we scroll instead of strolling with a friend.

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Speaker 1: We're all surrounded by people online, yet many people feel

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Speaker 1: completely alone. So we've been living in a massive technocultural shift.

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Speaker 1: But in today's context, the thing I want to emphasize

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Speaker 1: is the importance of this from the point of view

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Speaker 1: of the brain. We can see the effects of loneliness

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Speaker 1: in brain scans. We can measure this in stress hormones,

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Speaker 1: we can trace it in the immune system. Now, why

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Speaker 1: does the brain crave connection so strongly? Why does it

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Speaker 1: reward us for being together and punish us for isolation.

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Speaker 1: What role does empathy play in keeping us healthy? And

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Speaker 1: how do our relationships with our friends or partners, or

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Speaker 1: children or even dogs. How does this modify the architecture

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Speaker 1: of the brain. These are the questions that my guest today,

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Speaker 1: neuroscientist Ben Rain, dives into in his new book Why

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Speaker 1: Brains Need Friends, which comes out this week. The book

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Speaker 1: is an important reminder that our minds are not soloists,

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Speaker 1: but symphony players, and that thriving in a post interaction

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Speaker 1: world means relearning how to live and connect like this

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Speaker 1: social creatures that we are. As a side note, Ben

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Speaker 1: and I teach a class together at Stanford called how

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Speaker 1: to Communicate Science, in which we talk about books and

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Speaker 1: videos and podcasts and television and social media. And Ben

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Speaker 1: is excellent at breaking down the science and representing it

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Speaker 1: accurately and concisely. So it's a pleasure to welcome my

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Speaker 1: colleague Ben to the podcast today. Before we get started

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Speaker 1: about the neuroscience of social brains, the thing I want

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Speaker 1: to ask you is you describe in the book that

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Speaker 1: we live in a post interaction world.

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Speaker 2: So what do you mean by that? First off, excited

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Speaker 2: to be here, This is awesome, good to see you.

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Speaker 3: The post interaction world, as I refer to it, is

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Speaker 3: basically describing that we are becoming less and less social.

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Speaker 2: We are spending less time together interacting.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the fact that we are virtual right now

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Speaker 3: is sort of a testament to that. But just a

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Speaker 3: variety of changes have led us down this path of

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Speaker 3: being less connected, and it kind of, you know, you

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Speaker 3: could point to a number of scapegoats. The COVID nineteen

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Speaker 3: pandemic was a huge one, and I actually think that

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Speaker 3: extended period of isolation sort of reset or shifted our

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Speaker 3: expectations for social interaction, because going in, you know, in

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Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, we all had a social life. We all

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Speaker 3: saw our friends let's say, once twice, three times a week.

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Speaker 3: Then that was just completely demolished, just gone. So during

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Speaker 3: those subsequent few years where we had less interactions, our

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Speaker 3: expectations shifted our brain. Our brains are prediction machines, and

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Speaker 3: so we spent all this time in isolation, and so

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Speaker 3: we started to not expect to see our friends once

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Speaker 3: or twice or three times a week, which, by the way,

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Speaker 3: the fact that we weren't seeing them was upbending our expectations,

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Speaker 3: which is why it was so disturbing in the beginning.

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Speaker 3: But then maybe gradually we got kind of used to it.

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Speaker 3: We reset our lives a bit, and now life is restored.

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Speaker 3: COVID's over. We're back out in the normal world interacting

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Speaker 3: as we used to. But our brains have shifted from

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Speaker 3: expecting one, two or three interactions a week to maybe

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Speaker 3: expecting one interaction every two weeks or once a month,

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Speaker 3: and so that's a big part of this post interaction

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Speaker 3: world I refer to, and I think that's very bad

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Speaker 3: because shifted expectations don't mean shifted needs. You know, just

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Speaker 3: like sleep or nutrition, socializing is a really core pillar

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Speaker 3: of what drives the brain and what supports our health.

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Speaker 3: And you know, while we may not expect to interact

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Speaker 3: three times a week, most of us would be better

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Speaker 3: for it. So, you know, but on top of COVID

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Speaker 3: is also.

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Speaker 2: You know, remote work.

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Speaker 3: Many of these societal shifts that happened because of COVID,

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Speaker 3: you know, people got used to working from home. We

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Speaker 3: had the rise of things like instacart, where you could

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Speaker 3: pick up your groceries instead of actually going in the

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Speaker 3: store yourself and talking to the cashier and whatnot. And

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Speaker 3: there's just this automation of essentially everything you could do.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's telemedicine, you can tour a house, you

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Speaker 3: can you know, instead of having to go to the bank,

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Speaker 3: you could do it online. Everything that used to involve

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Speaker 3: a human generally doesn't nowadays. And so it's important for

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Speaker 3: us to recognize the value of interaction in this post

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Speaker 3: interaction world.

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Speaker 1: So from a neuroscience point, of view, why do we

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Speaker 1: need interaction?

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Speaker 3: So I'm going to start with the evolutionary perspective. If

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Speaker 3: you think back hundreds of thousands or millions of years, humans,

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Speaker 3: like many animals on Earth, survive best in groups.

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Speaker 2: We are really.

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Speaker 3: Good at hunting and defending ourselves when we're together. And

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Speaker 3: part of the reasons for that is we have all

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Speaker 3: these features in our bodies that allow us to work

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Speaker 3: so well together, like our eyebrows, which we can emote expressions,

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Speaker 3: and the white part of our eye, the sclera, which

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Speaker 3: allows us to tell where other people are looking.

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Speaker 2: And of course that's super helpful.

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Speaker 3: You can basically read someone's mind and infer what they're

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Speaker 3: thinking by recognizing the direction of their eyes. By the way,

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Speaker 3: that's not standard across the animal kingdom. Humans are one

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Speaker 3: of the only species that have whites Clara. Anyhow, all

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Speaker 3: that to say, since we survive better in groups, our

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Speaker 3: brains are built in a way that reward us for

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Speaker 3: social interaction, because how would you get a species to

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Speaker 3: stick together, Well, you can get them to stick together

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Speaker 3: if being around each other is pleasant and rewarding. So,

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Speaker 3: like all social species, and by that I mean any

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Speaker 3: animals that existing, we have social reward systems in our brain,

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Speaker 3: where being around others drives the release and the activation

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Speaker 3: of brain systems that are basically rewarding and reinforcing, so

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Speaker 3: that we want to be around others more frequently. It's

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Speaker 3: by reinforcing, you know, in the psychological sense, when something

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Speaker 3: is pleasant or nutritional, food is very good for you,

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Speaker 3: or provides a lot of nutrients, a lot of sugars

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Speaker 3: like chocolate, it drives the release of things like dopamine,

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Speaker 3: which keeps us coming back. That's reinforcing, and socializing drives

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Speaker 3: the release of dopamine and other rewarding neurotransmitters just the same.

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Speaker 1: So beyond the reward system, what's going on with social

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Speaker 1: interaction in the brain.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so there's two main things. Number one, socializing is

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Speaker 3: just supportive for brain health. And if you think about

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Speaker 3: the brain like a muscle, that the more you exercise it,

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Speaker 3: the more it grows and strengthens. Socializing is really great

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Speaker 3: exercise for the brain. It's not a simple task to

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Speaker 3: take on. You have to read the body language to

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Speaker 3: enter for these statements and think for your responses, and

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Speaker 3: you know, coordinate your own movements and everything while interpreting

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Speaker 3: their behavior. It's really not easy, and so it's good

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Speaker 3: exercise for the brain, and it may lead to the

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Speaker 3: development of new synapses and the strengthening of existing synapses,

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Speaker 3: which is sort of the way that the brain exercises

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Speaker 3: and strengthens. And potentially, as a consequence of this, people

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Speaker 3: who live more social lives and who engage with others

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Speaker 3: more literally have larger brains. They have more gray matter,

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Speaker 3: and that's a great selling point for a person like

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Speaker 3: me who wants to encourage others to connect more. But

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Speaker 3: it also has real consequences, not in that like you

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Speaker 3: immediately become smarter because you have a bigger brain, but

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Speaker 3: as we age, having this added gray matter can serve

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Speaker 3: as this cognitive reserve, which can make us more resilient

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Speaker 3: through aging and less vulnerable to dementia.

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Speaker 2: Quick interjection.

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Speaker 1: Cognitive reserve is this concept that as your brain, let's say,

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Speaker 1: degenerates with age, you've got all this backup material. You

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Speaker 1: have sort of a larger hard drive that you can

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Speaker 1: depend on on cognitive reserve.

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Speaker 3: That the way that I like to describe it, or

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Speaker 3: the way that I refer to it in the book

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Speaker 3: is you think about a battalion of ten thousand troops

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Speaker 3: going into a battle and losing one hundred troops, well,

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Speaker 3: going into the next battle, they'll be still quite strong

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Speaker 3: and powerful. But if it's a battalion of five hundred

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Speaker 3: troops and they lose one hundred, it's a big difference.

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Speaker 3: And so having this cognitive reserve, all this build up

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Speaker 3: extra brain tissue, will make you more resilient as that

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Speaker 3: brain tissue gradually declines and atrophies as we age, which

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Speaker 3: happens to everybody unfortunately exactly.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, what's interesting is that brain plasticity

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Speaker 1: is such an important part of this because you can

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Speaker 1: essentially build cognitive reserve by constantly challenging yourself with novelty,

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Speaker 1: with things that are tough, and that builds new roadways

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Speaker 1: and bridges, so that even as some things are dropping

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Speaker 1: out with time, you're building new ones. The interesting part

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Speaker 1: here is that the expression is that nothing is as

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Speaker 1: difficult for the brain as other people, which is to say,

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Speaker 1: other people provide really good fuel for your brain to

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Speaker 1: rewire and so on.

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Speaker 3: Why is that, Well, like I said, it's you know,

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Speaker 3: it's challenging. Socializing is not easy. It comes easier for

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Speaker 3: some people than others, but it really involves a lot

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Speaker 3: of executive control.

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Speaker 2: You have to really be tuned in.

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Speaker 3: And actually, on that note, there's a really interesting study

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Speaker 3: where they basically did a social intervention in older people

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Speaker 3: I believe they were folks living in retirement homes sixty

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Speaker 3: five plus age group, and what they found was that

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Speaker 3: when they socialized more, they did brain scans and they

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Speaker 3: found that there was an increased activity in this salience network,

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Speaker 3: which is a cluster of brain areas that work together

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Speaker 3: to basically pay attention to the outer world. And it

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Speaker 3: makes perfect sense because if you're sitting and you're watching TV,

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Speaker 3: do you think that salience network is really coming online?

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Speaker 2: You're paying attention a little bit, but it's not engaging

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Speaker 2: you in the way that.

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Speaker 3: Really the outcome of your behaviors has a consequence. And

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Speaker 3: when you're engaging with someone else, you really have to

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Speaker 3: tune in because you might embarrass yourself, you might insult them.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot more at risk.

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Speaker 3: And again, evolutionarily, social interactions are really important. You know,

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Speaker 3: if we are not liked, if we are cast out

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Speaker 3: from our tribe, it can have very serious consequences. You know,

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Speaker 3: a million years ago, those consequences may be death, you're

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Speaker 3: easy prey, you're hunted alone.

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Speaker 1: So let's turn to isolation. What happens with isolation.

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Speaker 2: In the brain.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so isolation is effectively processed in the brain as stress.

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Speaker 3: There there's more to it than this, of course, but

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Speaker 3: we do not like being alone. This also may have

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Speaker 3: evolutionary roots, because, like I just said, if you're cast

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Speaker 3: out from your tribe, the brain would be wise to

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Speaker 3: have a built in system that basically makes you uncomfortable

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Speaker 3: until you find community again for the sake of your survival.

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Speaker 3: But when we are stressed, there's a stress is not

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Speaker 3: good for you. And studies have shown that when people

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Speaker 3: are exposed to isolation, like if you know controlled environments,

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Speaker 3: person goes into a NASA space station by themselves, they

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Speaker 3: know what they're doing thirty days, but during the thirty days,

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Speaker 3: their cortisol levels will progressively rise and they will remain elevated.

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Speaker 3: Cortisol being this stress hormone. It's glucocorticoid, meaning it drives

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Speaker 3: a stress response in the body. And then once they

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Speaker 3: exit and return to normal life and socialize again, their

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Speaker 3: cortisol levels will return to normal. Now, the thing is

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Speaker 3: cortisol in driving the stress response one of the things

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Speaker 3: that it does is it reduces inflammation. Because when we're stressed,

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Speaker 3: when we're being challenged by something like a Saber two

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Speaker 3: tiger coming after us, it would be helpful if we

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Speaker 3: didn't have inflammation in our bodies.

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Speaker 2: We need to be ready to fight, ready to take.

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Speaker 3: On the challenge. But with chronic stress, when cortisol levels

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Speaker 3: remain elevated for a long time, that anti inflammatory property

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Speaker 3: basically fades away because the tissues cannot always remain in

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Speaker 3: this anti inflammatory state. Eventually they become desensitized to the cortisol.

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Speaker 2: Just like you know, if you're stressed.

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Speaker 3: For a long time, you can't remain in fight or

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Speaker 3: flight hyper vigilant for weeks, right, Eventually you just kind

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Speaker 3: of you desensitize to that.

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Speaker 2: So the reason that's bad.

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Speaker 3: Is because it means the cortisol's ability to reduce inflammation diminishes,

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Speaker 3: which means that it can lead to chronic inflammation in

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Speaker 3: chronic stress. With social isolation being a form of stress,

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Speaker 3: being chronically isolated can lead to effectively chronic inflammation and

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Speaker 3: basically a long term stress response.

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Speaker 2: And that's really bad.

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Speaker 3: And the evidence for why that's so bad comes from

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Speaker 3: studies tracking people who are isolated. When you have chronic inflammation,

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Speaker 3: it interferes with the function of your tissues, and soeople

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Speaker 3: who are isolated for extended periods they're at higher risk

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Speaker 3: of dementia, heart disease, diabetes, and of course on the

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Speaker 3: mood side, depression and anxiety, suicidality.

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Speaker 2: It's really impactful.

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Speaker 3: And so I think that especially given what I mentioned

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Speaker 3: about this post interaction world, and of course it's not

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Speaker 3: that nobody's interacting anymore, but we are objectively most of

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Speaker 3: us interacting less. And the thing about loneliness and isolation

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Speaker 3: is that it's not a binary thing where it's like

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Speaker 3: I'm lonely and isolated or I am socialized. It's really

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Speaker 3: a continuum where you can have one interaction a month

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Speaker 3: or you can have five interactions a month. The person

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Speaker 3: having one interaction a month is objectively more isolated than

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Speaker 3: the person having five a month. And so given that

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Speaker 3: we've shifted in the way that we interact with one

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Speaker 3: another and engage with the world in general, I worry

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Speaker 3: that we may be leading ourselves into unecess story health

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Speaker 3: complications and anxiety and depression because of this stress response

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Speaker 3: that isolation induces.

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Speaker 1: So when people are socializing, their salience network is on.

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Speaker 1: It leads to a stronger brain. When people are isolated

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Speaker 1: leads to these stress responses.

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Speaker 2: What is your opinion about these.

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Speaker 1: Three D avatar chat bots that you can have friendships

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Speaker 1: or relationships with. This is taking over the world at

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Speaker 1: a very fast paced There are apparently a billion people

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Speaker 1: now with AI relationships.

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Speaker 2: What's your take on that.

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of thoughts on this, and I

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Speaker 3: haven't quite gotten to the point where I'm like, this

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Speaker 3: is my firm stance. But in general, there's something special

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Speaker 3: about human to human interaction. And there's many examples of this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, for one, if you think about like video gamers,

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Speaker 3: they could play against the route with the bot or

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Speaker 3: the computer people call it right, But instead people will

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Speaker 3: pay a monthly subscription to play against other humans even

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Speaker 3: though they're not interacting with them.

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Speaker 2: There's something special about that.

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Speaker 3: And there are studies that show where when people go

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Speaker 3: on websites that have like an AI chatbot that can

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Speaker 3: help you or a real human avatar, people are more

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Speaker 3: likely to recommend the website.

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Speaker 2: To others when there's a human involved.

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Speaker 3: There's just something valuable about that, and there are areas

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Speaker 3: of the brain in the context of social touch that

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Speaker 3: seem to be especially activated by human touch, and one

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Speaker 3: of those is called the posterior superior temporal sulcus.

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Speaker 2: And it's activated by touch.

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Speaker 3: And when people are touched by a robot, which sounds

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Speaker 3: kind of wild and freakish, but massage by a robot,

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Speaker 3: I should say, a foot massage from a robot. And

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Speaker 3: so this suggests that the brain has some ability to

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Speaker 3: distinguish the social nature of touch, which makes sense, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: right now I'm rubbing my feet on the carpet. My

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Speaker 3: brain is telling me, well, you know, there's no reason

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Speaker 3: to release oxytocin and bond with this carpet. It's a carpet,

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Speaker 3: it's not your wife, right. There's these areas of the

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Speaker 3: brain that manage this distinction. And I think when we're

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Speaker 3: having these chat interactions with these AI large language models,

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Speaker 3: I would imagine that for most people, the brain is

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Speaker 3: making that distinction, which may or may not be making

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Speaker 3: it less valuable, making it less exciting. But I do

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Speaker 3: think that we hold the keys to that barrier.

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Speaker 2: I think because.

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Speaker 3: There are studies where people have shown that basically people

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Speaker 3: who use AI chatbots more and have relationships with them,

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Speaker 3: believe that it's good for their health, whereas people who

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Speaker 3: don't think it's bad for us. And I'm one of

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Speaker 3: the people who I think it's bad for us because

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Speaker 3: I don't hear the AI chatbots as friends. And so

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Speaker 3: I think we do have this ability to make that

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Speaker 3: leap hurtle over that barrier and convince ourselves, yeah, this

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Speaker 3: chatbot cares about me. It's human like, it matters. What

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Speaker 3: it says matters. But I think that it would be

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Speaker 3: very I don't want to say dangerous. Maybe that's a

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Speaker 3: strong word, but it would be a bad idea for

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Speaker 3: us to allow ourselves to get there. Right now, we

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Speaker 3: are the very first generation of humans having these human

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Speaker 3: like interactions with these AI chatbots, and I think that

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Speaker 3: the way we behave and the way we treat them

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Speaker 3: will determine how our children, our grandchildren treat them, and

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Speaker 3: whether our grandchildren will maybe go into AI therapists instead

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Speaker 3: of human therapists because we may or may not accept them.

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Speaker 1: I will say I do think there's a great advantage

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Speaker 1: to AI therapists in the sense that they're available twenty

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Speaker 1: four to seven. And remember everything you've said, and they

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Speaker 1: never get distracted and they're just you know, I think

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Speaker 1: it's going to change the world and change suicide rates

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Speaker 1: to have things like AI therapists. But as far as

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Speaker 1: AI friends go this two things I want to mention.

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Speaker 1: One is they're getting better fast, and so they are

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Speaker 1: more and more like a person.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: Grock released these three d avatars which are incredibly engaging

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Speaker 1: and so on. The reason I think this won't scratch

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Speaker 1: the itch totally is because in the end, you want

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Speaker 1: to take your wife or girlfriend or you know, someone

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Speaker 1: takes their boyfriend or their husband out to dinner with

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Speaker 1: other people and wants to do the foot massage and

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Speaker 1: wants to look at the stars with them and all

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Speaker 1: those sorts of things. So I think fundamentally there's going

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Speaker 1: to be this unfilled part and that's that's you know,

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about, is like what is it that

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Speaker 1: humans fulfill here. The second thing is I'm interested in

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Speaker 1: us getting back together in a year from now to

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Speaker 1: see where this has evolved to and to see whether

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Speaker 1: the chatbots get so good that they can actually activate

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Speaker 1: the same brain networks as you have another person.

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Speaker 3: And what they found was that this brain area it

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Speaker 3: was more active when people were receiving the massage from

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Speaker 3: a human than a robot.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so now let's return to the realm of humans entirely.

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Speaker 1: So tell us why social interaction is so important in childhood.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, as we grow up, we of course are

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Speaker 3: exposed to a bunch of interactions that probably many of

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Speaker 3: us don't remember, but those interactions through our early life

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Speaker 3: I play a critical role in shaping the development of

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Speaker 3: certain brain areas. So there is a just like there's

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Speaker 3: a sensitive period for a language where you know, we've

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Speaker 3: all seen a child pick up a language like this,

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Speaker 3: and then we try to learn a language as an

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Speaker 3: adult and it's just impossible, there's a sensitive period for

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Speaker 3: social interaction as well. And during this period, in the

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Speaker 3: first couple of years of life, we are exceptionally sensitive

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Speaker 3: to learning social information, so we can begin to understand

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Speaker 3: effectively the rules of social conduct. You know, I shouldn't

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Speaker 3: cut in line, I shouldn't push Johnny down the slide

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Speaker 3: during recess. You know, I should share my candy that

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Speaker 3: I got from Halloween because it earns me social credit.

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Speaker 3: These types of things where we're learning and building these

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Speaker 3: social models of the world and there's some evidence to

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Speaker 3: suggest that this socializing may help shape and develop the

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Speaker 3: prefrontal cortex, of course, a critical brain area involved in

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Speaker 3: planning and executive decision making, all sorts of things that

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Speaker 3: are really important for everyday life, but also social functioning.

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Speaker 3: And the evidence for this comes in two forms. One,

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Speaker 3: children who experience less social interaction in early life show

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Speaker 3: actually a smaller volume of the prefrontal cortex, and that's

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Speaker 3: about as detailed as we can look at a human brain,

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Speaker 3: just kind of looking at volumes and functions, But in

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Speaker 3: mice we can look much more deeply at this micro structures,

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Speaker 3: these synapses, the interactions between neurons, and research in mice

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Speaker 3: has found that when mice are isolated in early life,

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Speaker 3: they literally show basically immature synapses and the preferal cortex.

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Speaker 3: The are the dendrites where the neurons receive neurotransmitter signals.

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Speaker 3: They are not as mature in the way they are formed,

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Speaker 3: which means that these neurons are basically not able to

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Speaker 3: signal quite as well to each other. And what's especially

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Speaker 3: interesting as well is that when the mice were isolated

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Speaker 3: at a later period, just a few weeks later, they

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Speaker 3: showed no such changes. So there's, like I said, this

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Speaker 3: sensitive period in early life where the shaping occurs. And

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Speaker 3: of course, you know, there's examples like Genie, the girl

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Speaker 3: Susan Wilie I believes her full name who She was

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Speaker 3: born in California and horrifically held in captivity and isolation

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Speaker 3: for the first thirteen years.

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Speaker 2: Of her life by her parents, by her parents.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and when she was discovered by California authorities and

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Speaker 3: released and entered the world and to have a normal life,

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Speaker 3: she was basically never able to fully form social skills.

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00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: Window had passed.

440
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: And so without that critical shaping, you know, we don't

441
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 3: end up as the same adult that we would be otherwise.

442
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,719
Speaker 1: I wrote about several cases of these feral children, as

443
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: they're called in my book Live Wired. This sort of

444
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: thing tragically happens once in a while. Yeah, a child

445
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: is so neglected, so deeply neglected, they're locked in a

446
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: room by themselves, they have to sleep in their closet,

447
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 1: tied up in a sleeping bag.

448
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: I mean, just this bizarre stuff.

449
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 1: Because of mentally ill parents, they never developed language, they

450
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: don't develop the ability to use a toilet correctly. They

451
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: sometimes have what's called psychosocial dwarfism, where they don't actually

452
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: even grow to the normal height, to the expected height. Yeah,

453
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 1: and there's all kinds of deeply embedded problems with the

454
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: development of their brain as a result. And you're exactly right,

455
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 1: socializing is one of these. Okay, So let's switch gears.

456
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: Tell us about the difference between introverts and extroverts.

457
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So extraversion is something that can be measu

458
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 3: quite well. In fact, one of your recent guests, Jordan Peterson,

459
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 3: has a scale on this that I modified slightly and

460
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 3: included in the book, and it's a trade extraversion is

461
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 3: what I'm referring to. And you know, for listeners, you

462
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 3: can go online and see if there's a freely accessible

463
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 3: trade extroversion scale and sort of figure out where you land.

464
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 3: And generally, the higher your score, the more extroverted you are,

465
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 3: the more likely you are to enjoy socializing to get

466
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 3: energy from interaction, and the lower you score, the more

467
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 3: introverted you are, the less likely you are. However, I

468
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 3: think a common misconception is that introverts basically don't like

469
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 3: interacting at all, and that they would rather if it

470
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 3: was an option to just stay home all the time

471
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 3: and never interact with another human ever, that would be

472
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 3: their preference. But what's interesting is that the psychological studies

473
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 3: on this, people are thrown into these environments and said

474
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: act like an extrovert, regardless of whether people are an

475
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: introvert or an extrovert. If they do this for just

476
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 3: one interaction, like a ten minute conversation or a little

477
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: bit longer, they will feel better after. They will show

478
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 3: mood increases, even if they are very introverted. However, if

479
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 3: those same researchers say act like an extrovert for a

480
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 3: whole week, then by the end of that week, those

481
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 3: introverted people, those who score lower on trade extraversion, they

482
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 3: are miserable. It's basically a week of torture. It's completely draining,

483
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 3: you know. And the extroverts, on the other hand, they

484
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 3: feel great after that week. Now, you know, I think,

485
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 3: regardless of how extroverted you are, there is always, you know,

486
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: a limit to this, and I score very high and

487
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 3: those I'm very extroverted. But if I go on vacation

488
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 3: for a week with my family, like put me in

489
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 3: a you know, isolation room for at least another week

490
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 3: after that, I need to be by myself. And I

491
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 3: think what's important for everyone, regardless of where you stand

492
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 3: on that continuum, is to work to recognize that sort

493
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 3: of fine line where you cross over. And like I said,

494
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 3: everyone will be a little different.

495
00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: You know.

496
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 3: For some people, socializing once a week going to one

497
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: dinner is plenty. You know, by the end of that dinner,

498
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 3: they're like, Okay, I'm good.

499
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: I don't need to see anyone for a week.

500
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 3: For others, that may be just the start of it,

501
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 3: and they may need to see friends another two or

502
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 3: three times for the the end of the week to

503
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 3: feel good. And so I think that identifying your trade

504
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 3: extraversion is actually a really useful tool, which is why

505
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 3: I include the scale in my books that people can

506
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 3: fill it out and you know, literally right on the

507
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 3: pages if you want to and figure out exactly where

508
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 3: you stand.

509
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: So let's talk empathy for a moment. So what is

510
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: empathy from the brain's point of view.

511
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, empathy is the ability to either understand what someone

512
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 3: else is going through or to actually share their emotions.

513
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: And you know a clear example of this. I hate

514
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 3: to do this to people, but I'm going to do

515
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 3: it to you right now. So imagine that you're in

516
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 3: a parking lot, you're walking to your car, and you're

517
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: looking at a person getting into the car, and as

518
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 3: you're watching, they slam their fingers in the car door,

519
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 3: and you can you know, I'll just leave it there.

520
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: I could go into greater detail, but just if you

521
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 3: can actually picture that and you put yourself there, how

522
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 3: does that feel awful?

523
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you run the simulation in your own

524
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: mind of what it would feel like to your fingers

525
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: exactly exactly.

526
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: That is empathy. That's exactly it. And so you know

527
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 3: the interesting part about that. And by the way, empathy

528
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: can be good or bad. You know, I happen to

529
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 3: give you a horrible example. I could have also said,

530
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: imagine you know, you see the love of your life

531
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 3: received the biggest career award that it could ever receive.

532
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: You know, they're on stage and you're in the crowd,

533
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 3: you're in the front row, you're clapping, and they look

534
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 3: at you and you make eye contact that there's tears

535
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 3: streaming down your face.

536
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: You feel amazing. That's also empathy, right.

537
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 3: But the interesting thing is a lot of the research

538
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 3: that we have on empathy the field of neuroscience, I mean,

539
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 3: is studying empathy for pain, including some of your own work,

540
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 3: and what it, as you know, reveals is that the

541
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 3: brain systems that activate when we are empathizing with someone's

542
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 3: pain have significant over lap with the brain areas that

543
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 3: encode pain itself. And specifically, it's not that the brain

544
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 3: areas that actually encode pain in your fingers are turning on,

545
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,479
Speaker 3: because otherwise you would you know, you would be flinching,

546
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 3: you'd be.

547
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: Grabbing your hand.

548
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: Rather, there is this what's called the effective, aaff effective,

549
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: or emotional component of pain that is encoded by these

550
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 3: two areas, the anterior singular cortex and the insula, which

551
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 3: is that sort of you know, you hit your hand

552
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 3: and now there's something screaming inside your head saying, oh

553
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 3: this is horrible, I hate this, this is terrible. That's

554
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 3: the part of the brain that's activating in the observer.

555
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 3: And so you know, when we activate those brain areas,

556
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 3: we create that feeling of disgust and revulsion, which is

557
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 3: why we are able to feel that sense that you experienced.

558
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 3: But what's so fascinating to me is that the brain

559
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: is so good at just modeling. It can look at someone,

560
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 3: it can identify what they're going through and it will

561
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: just model their same brain state in some way in

562
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 3: your own in your brain and the observer's brain. I

563
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 3: think again, this goes back to what I mentioned about.

564
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 3: You know, white scleare, eyebrows. You know, without a word spoken,

565
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 3: we can detect someone's emotions and start to feel them ourselves. However,

566
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 3: that doesn't always happen. Empathy is not always present, and

567
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 3: there are a number of things that determine how engaged

568
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 3: our brain systems are going to be in.

569
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: The context of empathy.

570
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 3: And there are a number of things that determine how

571
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 3: much empathy we will feel and literally how much brain

572
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,719
Speaker 3: activity will be happening in those empathy related areas. And unfortunately,

573
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 3: one of the biggest ones is basically in group outgroup.

574
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 3: If someone is different from you in nearly any way,

575
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 3: you will show less activity in those brain areas. And

576
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 3: of course some of the evidence for that comes from

577
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 3: your own study, which is one of the best.

578
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: Maybe you should tell this story is better for you

579
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: to tell me.

580
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: I'll just mention it really quickly. Yeah, we did this

581
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: study where we put people on the scanner. They see

582
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: six hands on the screen and the computer boo boo,

583
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: Boo boop goes around, picks one of the hands at random,

584
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: and then you see that hand get stabbed with a

585
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: syringe needle. The control is that you see it get

586
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: touched with a Q tip, which looks visually almost the same.

587
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 2: And then what happens.

588
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: When you see it stab in the syringe needle. These

589
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: this empathy network lights up. What we summarize is the

590
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: pain matrix. And exactly as you said, it's not that

591
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 1: you are feeling the pain physically, but you're feeling all

592
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: the other stuff about what would that be like if

593
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: my hand had been stabbed. You're feeling all the disgust

594
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: and the effective component of the pain. Okay, Now what

595
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: we do is we just label each hand with a

596
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: one word label Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Scientologist, Hindu, atheistoop.

597
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: The computer goes around, picks a hand.

598
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: You see that hand gets stabbed, and the question is

599
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: does your brain care as much if it's a member

600
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: of your out group? And the result was that your

601
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: brain does not care as much. We tested all groups.

602
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: We tested people of every religion, plus atheists as well.

603
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: Even atheists have a big empathic response when they see

604
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: the atheist hand get stabbed. Than when they see any

605
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: of the other groups. But this is true for every religion,

606
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: every group. You just you care more about your label

607
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: and less about the other labels. And this is something

608
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: that's very very clear to show and very striking and

609
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: very depressing in some way.

610
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: But yes, we are we have higher empathy for our

611
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: in groups.

612
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and religion is one that's you know, very salient

613
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 3: in the world, especially today. But also another thing I

614
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 3: love about the study is the Augustinian and Justinian right right.

615
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: So what we did there is we had people come

616
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: into the lab, new participants, and we said, here, here's

617
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: a coin. Toss the coin. If it's heads, you're an Augustinian.

618
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: If it's tails, you're a Justinian. So they toss the

619
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: coin and they find which team they're on. We give

620
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: them a wristband that says the name of their team.

621
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: We remind them of their team. They go in the scanner.

622
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: Now they see the same thing happening, but the computer

623
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: is stabbing either Augustinian or Justinian hands.

624
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: Now, the point is these labels are totally arbitrare.

625
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: You're the one who tossed the coins, so you know

626
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: it's random which team you're on. But Nonetheless, we can

627
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: still detect that there's a bigger difference about your in

628
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: group getting stabbed versus your out group. Even something like

629
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: an arbitrary made up label still induces this in group

630
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 1: out group response.

631
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 3: And that's, you know, a bit concerning, and you know,

632
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 3: it makes sense in the world of a couple hundred.

633
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: Thousand years ago. Right, you have your tribe.

634
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 3: It's important that you care about your tribe because if

635
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 3: they die, you're probably gonna die. But if you come

636
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 3: upon a rival tribesmen in the woods being attacked or

637
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 3: you know, a tree fell on them, it's actually more

638
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 3: supportive for your survival arguably if you don't feel a thing,

639
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 3: if you just let them die and you move on

640
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 3: and you go home to your tribe and you're safe.

641
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: So, you know, back then it made a lot of sense.

642
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: Now we live in a.

643
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 3: Very different world, and empathy is so core to the

644
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 3: way we connect with others and the way we relate

645
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 3: to others. You know, I worry that with less empathy nowadays,

646
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 3: because of all these new ways we're finding to sort

647
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 3: of divide ourselves from one another, that we may not

648
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: be functioning as yeah as a society, you know, and

649
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 3: our evolutionary ancestors would agree with that.

650
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:19,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

651
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: Although the good news is there is one thing that

652
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: we found from our studies on this over the years

653
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: is that the way to combat this has to do

654
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 1: with complexifying the relationships, which is to say, let's say

655
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: somebody is in a different group than I am, but

656
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: they're also they happen to share this membership in this

657
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: other group with me, and they happen to, you know,

658
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 1: live in the same place I live, and they happen

659
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: to like bike riding the way I do, and they

660
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: have whatever.

661
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 2: Then I've got all.

662
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: These things where I'm like, oh, well, the sort of

663
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: the sort of in my our group, and the more

664
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,399
Speaker 1: it gets complexified, the better that relationship is. The place

665
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 1: where this becomes the real problem is when you have

666
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: some group that you say, oh, they're clear.

667
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: Nothing like me.

668
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: And of course the history of propaganda across place and

669
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: time is all about saying, oh, those people they're like animals,

670
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: or they're like viruses, or they're like robots or whatever,

671
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: but it's something that's not human. They're so different from

672
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: me that I have nothing in common with them.

673
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, although twenty years from now they may not be

674
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,399
Speaker 3: saying they're like robots anymore, because robots will be quite like.

675
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: Us, right at least AI chatbots quite right.

676
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: And I was going to ask you what is the

677
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: difference between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy?

678
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 3: Yes, so right in the beginning I described that empathy

679
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 3: can be either understanding someone's emotions or feeling their emotions.

680
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 3: Cognitive empathy is that first one, so you're able to

681
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 3: into it what someone is going through, for example, in

682
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 3: the hand slamming in the car door example, by looking

683
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 3: at them, seeing their reaction, their facial expression, whatever sounds

684
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 3: are emanating from them, which are probably going to be

685
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 3: uncomfortable to listen to. All those things, you can tell, Okay,

686
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 3: this person's in pain. That's the emotion they're feeling. I

687
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 3: can understand that. Emotional empathy, though, is to share and

688
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 3: step into those emotions, which would be in your case,

689
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 3: I asked you, how does it feelings that it felt horrible?

690
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 3: That emotional component of feeling something in response, that's emotional empathy.

691
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: So is it possible to become more empathic? It is?

692
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 3: It is so Interestingly, empathy is something that we learn

693
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 3: and develop in early life. Most of you know, like

694
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 3: I said, you learn that you push Johnny down a

695
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 3: slide and he starts crying, and of course this is

696
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 3: in childhood, not in adulthood. But Johnny falls, it's your fault.

697
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 3: You feel bad. You recognize, Oh he feels bad, I

698
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 3: feel bad too. Through these experiences, you develop empathy in childhood,

699
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean that when you reach adulthood that

700
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 3: you no longer can grow and develop. And there are

701
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 3: actually some really fascinating studies where they've put people through

702
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 3: the specific empathy and compassion trainings and found that not

703
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 3: only are those empathic capabilities flexible, that people can grow

704
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 3: and become more empathic, but also that it's associated with

705
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 3: changes structural changes in the brain. And what's really interesting

706
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 3: is the two exercises that they put these people through

707
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 3: that really stick out to me. One is a loving

708
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 3: Kindness meditation, which if anyone's interested, you know, you could

709
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 3: basically YouTube is Loving Kindness Meditation and find it. It's basically,

710
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 3: you are entering this relaxed state, you're thinking of someone.

711
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 3: It could be someone you love, someone you care about,

712
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: or it could be a stranger, or it could be

713
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 3: the entire universe, and then you're just extending love and

714
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 3: kindness onto them and you know, you're in a very

715
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 3: relaxed state. It's a really beautiful thing to experience. But

716
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 3: that exercise, as part of a larger training is associated

717
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 3: with greater empathic abilities. The other is empathic listening, which

718
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 3: is you sit down with a partner and that person

719
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 3: tells you about something that they experienced in ideally the

720
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 3: last twenty four hours, something that was emotional for them,

721
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 3: that made them feel either good or bad. And that

722
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 3: person is meant to tell you in as great of

723
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 3: detail as possible, what that experience was like, how it felt.

724
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 3: And your job is to do absolutely nothing but listen.

725
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: You cannot interject, you cannot you know, interrupt them. You

726
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: just sit and you listen and and you know, emphasis

727
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 3: on listen. You're taking it in as they're describing how

728
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 3: it felt. You're trying to imagine what it would feel

729
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 3: like for you. So you're basically taking these empathy systems

730
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 3: for a test drive. You're engaging them in a basically

731
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: practice run, you know, which isn't a practice run, it's

732
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 3: a real run, but it's you're.

733
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 2: Focusing on the empathic component of it.

734
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 3: You're really trying to feel what they're feeling, and you're

735
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 3: not interrupting them to say, oh, I went through something

736
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 3: like that before.

737
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: You know, you're just taking it in.

738
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 3: And so those two exercises, among other things, are associated

739
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 3: in adults with those positive changes.

740
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to cover two more topics. Is social

741
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: media good for us or bad for us?

742
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 3: Generally bad sadly, and I think for a lot of people,

743
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 3: you know, the lived experience is consistent with that. You know,

744
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 3: you open social media, first couple of minutes, you're like, yeah,

745
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 3: this is you know, doing the trick. I'm relaxing, I'm

746
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,959
Speaker 3: kind of stepping away from real life. I'm forgetting about

747
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 3: my problems, and then all of a sudden you look

748
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 3: and it's like two hours later and you're thinking, oh

749
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 3: my gosh, what just happened. A lot of people experience

750
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 3: that unfortunately. But that's not the reason why it's bad

751
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 3: for us. It's bad for us for a number of

752
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 3: other reasons. By the way, when I say it's bad

753
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 3: for us, the more people use social media generally, they

754
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 3: tend to be more depressed, more anxious, they sleep worse.

755
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 3: That's one of the key mediators, it seems, because when

756
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 3: people spend you know, those who score higher when they're

757
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 3: asked how much time do you spend per week on

758
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 3: social media?

759
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: Those who score higher, where do they find that time?

760
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 3: While they're often laying awake at night watching videos instead

761
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 3: of sleeping, And as we know.

762
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: Sleep is a big mediator of mood, So that.

763
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 3: Could be the reason why people who use social media

764
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 3: are more depressed and anxious. But you know, there's also

765
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 3: it's very isolating in itself. You know, the funny thing

766
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,479
Speaker 3: about social media. I'm doing air quotes for those only

767
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,399
Speaker 3: listening social air quotes media is that people who use

768
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: social media more feel more lonely. They end up feeling

769
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 3: more isolated because it is isolating. You're not actually interacting

770
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 3: with anyone. You're spending time alone with a device that's

771
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 3: approximating social interaction and doing just enough to hit those

772
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 3: social rewards systems in the brain to keep you hooked

773
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 3: and keep you swiping and scrolling, but you're not actually

774
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 3: interacting with anybody. And so I believe that that's a

775
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 3: key part of it. But you know, there's also a

776
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 3: key role of many other things. The social comparison. You know,

777
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 3: people are posting their very best moments on social media,

778
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 3: so you're scrolling and being like, oh my gosh, I'm

779
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 3: doing terrible at life compared to these people who are

780
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 3: doing so well every time I log on. So in general,

781
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 3: you know I, as you know, I post on social

782
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 3: media a lot, and you know, one of the messages

783
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 3: I try to keep consistent is basically, go away, stop

784
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 3: stop watching this, and go you know, outside, go live life,

785
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 3: better things to do.

786
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to ask you about something different now,

787
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 1: which is so my entire life. I've always had dogs,

788
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: and humans have been with this other species for such

789
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: a long time. Why are our relationships with dogs so important?

790
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a dog lover myself. Dogs are amazing. My

791
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 3: dog Zoey is around here somewhere. So dogs, it's so fascinating.

792
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,240
Speaker 3: I mentioned the evolutionary history of humans that we survive

793
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 3: better in groups, right, So we have this this social reward,

794
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 3: this oxytocin, this glue that holds us together, humans and dogs,

795
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 3: presumably if they've survived better as one unit when they

796
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 3: exist together. And the relationship between dogs and humans, by

797
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 3: the way, was thought to occur somewhere between like twenty

798
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 3: seven and forty thousand years ago, so we've been living

799
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 3: together for so long. We've been living together for so

800
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 3: long and working together that when geneticists look back at

801
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 3: our genes, they see similar changes over time in the

802
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 3: genes between humans and dogs, which suggests that we face

803
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,919
Speaker 3: the same challenges of ancient Earth together and evolved through

804
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 3: the same mechanisms to survive, which is awesome and just

805
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 3: you know, go give your dog a kiss. Anyways, the

806
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 3: reason that dogs are so beloved to us is because

807
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 3: they activate these social reward systems just like other humans do,

808
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 3: just like children do. And that when we look into

809
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 3: the eyes of our dogs, when we pet our dogs,

810
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 3: we have all these benefits. We produce oxytocin, which is

811
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 3: probably why we love them so much. You know, we

812
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 3: show lower blood pressure. People who have dogs and also

813
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 3: other animals too, generally have greater health. They are more

814
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 3: likely to just live longer basically, but also like lower

815
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 3: rates of heart disease things like that. And you know,

816
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 3: I actually i'd never said this. Earlier, I mentioned that

817
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 3: there were three reasons socializing is good for you. One

818
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,439
Speaker 3: of them is that it boosts your mood through these

819
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 3: social reward systems. The second is that it can lead

820
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 3: to cognitive reserve and the third that I never actually

821
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 3: said is that, you know, oxytocin, people think of it

822
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 3: as this love hormone, which it is. It's really important

823
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 3: for bonding, but oxytocin is also this incredibly powerful medicinal

824
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 3: compound in the body. Basically, oxytocin is anti inflammatory. Oxytocin

825
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 3: can produce stress and anxiety. Oxytocin it can help bone growth,

826
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 3: it can help with wound healing. It has all these

827
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 3: amazing properties. It's also neuroprotective, which makes sense because when

828
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 3: we are in a position to mate perhaps and we're

829
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 3: producing oxytocin, we want to be physically fit to make

830
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 3: sure that we are probably going to produce a child.

831
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 3: So the fact that oxytocin has all these amazing health benefits,

832
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 3: I don't think we should forget about the fact that

833
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 3: dogs drive the release of oxytocin as well. And you know,

834
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 3: I really do believe that the isolation of older people

835
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 3: in America and worldwide is a massive, unspoken public health crisis. Isolation,

836
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 3: as I mentioned, is really bad for us. As we

837
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 3: grow older, we are more prone to a range of conditions,

838
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 3: and oxytocin may be healing. As I said, it's neuroprotective.

839
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 3: So I really think that a simple intervention for older

840
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 3: human beings is to get a dog, because they may

841
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,439
Speaker 3: be able to sort of scratch some of that same

842
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 3: biological itch that social interaction does, especially for those who

843
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 3: are you know, maybe have trouble getting out of the

844
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 3: house and so they're stuck at home and so it's

845
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 3: exacerbating their isolation. And the reason for that is because

846
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 3: dogs basically hitched a ride on our evolutionary bonding systems

847
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 3: to connect with us and stick together for the same

848
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 3: reason that we are social animals. You know, they dry

849
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 3: boxytosin release, which drives dopamine release. We love being around them,

850
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 3: but they are also good for us because this connection

851
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 3: is meaningful for the brain.

852
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: So the relationship between the caregiver and the dog and

853
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: the relationship between the parent and the child.

854
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,760
Speaker 3: What's the similarities there? There are a few, one being

855
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 3: that the oxytocin component. You know, oxytocin's key for parent

856
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 3: child relationships because you know, it's a tremendously powerful glue.

857
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 3: You need to be glued to your child so that

858
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 3: the child survives, And with dogs, they activate the same system.

859
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 3: May be simply looking into your eyes. The eyes of

860
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 3: your dog can dry oxytocin release not just in you,

861
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 3: by the way, but in the dog too, because they

862
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 3: need to be motivated to hang out with us as well. Interestingly, though,

863
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 3: when they had wolves look in the eyes of humans,

864
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 3: the wolves didn't show this oxytocin rise, suggesting that dogs

865
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 3: evolved in order to bond with humans or in the

866
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 3: process of forming this long term relationship with us. The

867
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 3: other thing, though, beyond the biological comparisons, dogs actually treat

868
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 3: us like parents, like as if they were children.

869
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: Anyone who owns a dog knows this to be true.

870
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 3: But what's really interesting is in psychological studies of children,

871
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 3: you know, there are various attachment styles and the most.

872
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 2: Common is a secure attachment style.

873
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 3: And the way this can be tested is through this

874
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 3: thing called the strange situation test, where the baby is

875
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 3: put into a strange situation. So imagine your mom, you

876
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 3: have the baby, You go into this room. You know,

877
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 3: baby plays, looks, there's some toys on the ground, whatever.

878
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 3: Then this stranger comes in grabs a seat nearby, and

879
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 3: you know, the baby is kind of looking at this

880
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 3: guy who's is a weird guy.

881
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: I don't know. Mom gets up and leaves.

882
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 3: So now the baby is by themselves in this room

883
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 3: with this stranger, and the way they behave in this

884
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 3: st situation can suggest how they basically relate to their parent,

885
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 3: and so what often happens is the babies will feel

886
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 3: skeptical of the stranger until mom returns, and then willingly

887
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 3: play with the stranger, suggesting that they view mom as

888
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 3: a beacon of safety. Right when Mom's nearby, it's safe

889
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 3: to play with this person a couple, I don't know.

890
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 3: Decades after that study was published, scientists did the same

891
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 3: thing with dogs and their caregivers, where they had the

892
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 3: same exact situation. Person walks their dog into this room,

893
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 3: there's a stranger there, and then the caregiver gets up

894
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 3: and walks away, And what they found was that the

895
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 3: majority of dogs, just like children, will avoid the stranger

896
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 3: until the parent gets back or the caregiver gets back,

897
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 3: and then they will be more comfortable socializing and playing

898
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 3: with the stranger. So biologically, yes, it's similar, but also psychologically,

899
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 3: from the dog's perspective, they may also view us.

900
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 2: In a similar way, at least to the way a

901
00:48:59,080 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 2: children view parents.

902
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: Oh beautiful, okay, So subsuming back out to the big picture.

903
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 1: We've got these extraordinarily social brains. We are social species.

904
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: What should we all be keeping in mind about how

905
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: to best navigate ourselves through the world in terms of

906
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 1: the social context.

907
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 3: Well, I'm very firm believer that we can gain a

908
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 3: ton of benefit, that there's this uneaten ripe fruit of

909
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 3: social interaction effectively everywhere we go in basically strangers. I

910
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 3: think that if we are willing to open ourselves to

911
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 3: interacting with strangers more, we can gain a lot. And

912
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 3: there's evidence on this too that people when they are

913
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 3: invited by scientists to talk to a stranger, they feel better.

914
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 3: And I think that a lot of the time we

915
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 3: don't do that because we think we're going to be rejected.

916
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 3: We think that they're going to think we're weird or

917
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 3: whatever we thinking. But the truth is people don't mind

918
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 3: being spoken to, they don't mind having a conversation as

919
00:49:59,040 --> 00:49:59,959
Speaker 3: long as it's in the right content.

920
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 2: And so I guess my answer to your question is we.

921
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 3: Should identify ways to explore new social domains that are

922
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 3: comfortable for everybody. Of course, you know, you don't want

923
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 3: to go up to a person on the train and

924
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 3: pull their ear, butt out of their ear and say, hey,

925
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 3: what are you listening too? But finding when we have

926
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 3: these moments which we often have. You know, you're sitting

927
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 3: in a doctor's office waiting room, and you know it's

928
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 3: fifteen minutes go by, and you're doing nothing, and there's

929
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 3: six other people sitting near you that are doing the

930
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 3: exact same thing. Nobody's talking to each other. Why don't

931
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 3: we talk to each other? Like I said, I'm an extrovert.

932
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 3: This may be terrible advice for introverts, and again, it's

933
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 3: all about finding that cadence of where you are comfortable,

934
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 3: and for many people this may not be comfortable at all.

935
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 3: But I think what what everyone should really be doing

936
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 3: is just that figuring out what sort of social schedule,

937
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 3: or what I refer to it in the book as

938
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 3: the social diet we're eating or taking in is most healthy,

939
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 3: most beneficial for our mood and well being, and with

940
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 3: mood being the real output variable that we're measuring, so

941
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 3: I think, you know, if we take time to maybe journal.

942
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 3: I do provide a social journal in the book as well,

943
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 3: where you can, after you come home from an interaction,

944
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 3: answer a bunch of questions. You know who was I

945
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 3: with how many people were there, where were we how

946
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 3: busy was it? Also, what do we talk about all

947
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 3: sorts of things like that, And if we can start

948
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 3: to interrogate our interactions in a way that we recognize, oh,

949
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 3: this thing makes it less pleasant than this thing. You know.

950
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 3: I don't like being in a bar where it's shoulder

951
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 3: to shoulder and now I've packed, you know, squeezing through

952
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 3: to see my friends, or screaming over the music. Or

953
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 3: on the other hand, I don't really like being in

954
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 3: one on one environments where it's quiet and we're just

955
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 3: talking and looking each other's eyes. You know, if we

956
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 3: can configure our interactions in a way that allow us

957
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 3: to step into a new level of connected connectedness, I

958
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,240
Speaker 3: think that could be really good for us, not only

959
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 3: on the individual level, on our for our brains and

960
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 3: our health in general, but also for the sake of

961
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 3: our entire society, because the data are very real that

962
00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 3: we've become much more fragmented and isolated in the last day.

963
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: So that was my interview with Ben Rain, author of

964
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: the new book Why Brains Need Friends, and our conversation

965
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: today took us from babies to robots to social media

966
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: to dogs, to the bonds that.

967
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 2: Sustain us in old age.

968
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,280
Speaker 1: The lesson that comes up is that it doesn't really

969
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: work to think about the brain as a loan captain

970
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 1: at the helm. Instead, it's more like an instrument that

971
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: is meant to play in a symphony. And today we

972
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: covered the biology that makes connection essential. We talked about

973
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 1: how we can leverage the science to help our brains thrive.

974
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,919
Speaker 1: In wrapping this up, I just want to remind us

975
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 1: that connection doesn't always mean crowds or noise or constant presence.

976
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just the quiet looks between two people who

977
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: know each other well. Sometimes it's the weight of a

978
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 1: dog's head on your knee. Sometimes it's chatting with a

979
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: friend over call. Sometimes this holding a baby. What matters

980
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: is just these invisible strands that tie your nervous system

981
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: to other people. We have to keep an eye on

982
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: this proactively, because in a world that moves fast and

983
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 1: rewards self sufficiency, it's easy to forget to tend.

984
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 2: To those threads.

985
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: We're rushing, we're doom scrolling, and we convince ourselves often

986
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: that we'll make that call tomorrow. But the science is clear.

987
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: Our brains are built for interaction. And in fact, when

988
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 1: I made my television show The Brain, I devoted an

989
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: entire episode to this called why Do I Need You?

990
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 3: So?

991
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:42,359
Speaker 2: I want to remind you that one of the.

992
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: Most important things you can do for your mental clarity,

993
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 1: for your emotional resilience, for your physical health, it's one

994
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: of the simplest things. Just stop and look up and

995
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:58,919
Speaker 1: connect with other people. Think of conversation like medicine, think

996
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 1: of friendship like food. So now that we've reached the

997
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 1: end of today's podcast, think of someone that you haven't

998
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: reached out to for a while and pick up the

999
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: phone and arrange that coffee or hike or meal. It's

1000
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: easy to do, and it's one of the most important

1001
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: things that you can do for the health and happiness

1002
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: of your brain. Go to eagleman dot com slash podcast

1003
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: more information and to find further reading. Go in the

1004
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: weekly discussions with other people on my substack, and check

1005
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 1: out and subscribe to Inner Cosmos on YouTube for videos

1006
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: of each episode and to leave comments Until next time.

1007
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: I'm David Eagleman, and this is Inner Cosmos.