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Speaker 1: Here we go.

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Speaker 2: Cody Stavenagan joining us right now, Tiger Territory host and

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Speaker 2: reporter for the Athletic covering the Detroit Tigers. So that

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Speaker 2: game happened over the weekend, and now we put this

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Speaker 2: team to bed in the twenty twenty five season. Nice

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Speaker 2: and simple to start, Cody, how do you evaluate twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five for the Tigers?

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Speaker 1: I wish that were nice and simple. Scott Harris and

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Speaker 1: aj Hinch talk today for the post mortem press conference.

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Speaker 1: I think Harris kind of agreed it felt like multiple

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Speaker 1: seasons in one. There were some big emotional swings. There

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Speaker 1: was a lot to like, there was a lot to

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Speaker 1: not like at all. I don't know how to feel

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Speaker 1: about it. You know, in the big picture, hey, you

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Speaker 1: made the playoffs, you made the alds, you still have

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Speaker 1: a good farm system. At the same time, at points

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Speaker 1: this year it felt like you were destined for something

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Speaker 1: a little bigger and you just didn't get there. So

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Speaker 1: there's something some things feel good about, and there's a

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Speaker 1: little hints of regret as well.

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Speaker 3: All Right, tough hitting question right out the gate. Do

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Speaker 3: they have the finances to keep Schooble or do they

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Speaker 3: gotta trade them with one year left.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, personally, I think that's looking at the question the

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Speaker 1: wrong way. I think they have the finances. There's no

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Speaker 1: reason to believe they don't. I'm not sure the Tigers

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Speaker 1: are going to run a luxury tax team anytime soon,

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Speaker 1: but they're still middle of the pack in payroll. Trek

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Speaker 1: School's a Scott Bars client. They could offer him one

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Speaker 1: billion dollars and Scott Boys might say, Hey, you know what,

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Speaker 1: Trek's gonna set a record for starting pitching. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: go ahead and take this free agency. See if anyone

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Speaker 1: wants to beat you. I think the Tigers have to

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Speaker 1: be aware of that fact. They are aware of that fact,

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Speaker 1: and so thus I do think they have to look

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Speaker 1: long and hard at trading trading him. Scott Harris today

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Speaker 1: talking about it, basically said I'm not going to comment,

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Speaker 1: which I think tells you that everything is on the table,

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Speaker 1: including the possibility of a trade.

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Speaker 4: All right, Cody. Part of his press conference, he talked

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Speaker 4: about the trade deadline. Absolutely Cratered struggled, and we're here

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Speaker 4: today talking about because the Tigers didn't ultimately move on

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Speaker 4: in the playoffs. Do you agree with what he said

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Speaker 4: at the trade deadline? About how they went after guys

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Speaker 4: and it would have taken prospects, and that guy that

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Speaker 4: they went after, not naming names, didn't do good. So

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Speaker 4: we can kind of insinuate and know who he's talking about.

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Speaker 4: Do you believe him, agree with him? Or was he

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Speaker 4: kind of skirting around the fact that there was other

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Speaker 4: areas that they could have made moves to help bolster

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Speaker 4: this team.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think some of both. I think Scott's big

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Speaker 1: picture view of the deadline is not at all wrong.

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Speaker 1: Every year, there are a lot of moves that get

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Speaker 1: made that look great at the time, and then those

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Speaker 1: players don't produce, especially if we're talking about relief pitchers,

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Speaker 1: and in two months sample, it can be really hard

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Speaker 1: to get that right. At the same time, executives are

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Speaker 1: paid to get those difficult decisions right. Seemed like maybe

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Speaker 1: there's some hinting about the idea of Auhanium Suarez, who

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Speaker 1: obviously didn't have a good first half home against the

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Speaker 1: Tigers in the DS, but sitting below one hundred in

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Speaker 1: the playoffs. I get that. I don't think the Tigers

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Speaker 1: should have traded Max Clark or Kevin McGonagall or even

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Speaker 1: Troy Melton at the same time. You know, Ryan Helsley

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Speaker 1: didn't pitch well in the second half, David Bednar did.

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Speaker 1: The two starters they acquired, Charlie Morton Chris Paddock were terrible.

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Speaker 1: Meryl Kelly was was pretty good after the deadline. So

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Speaker 1: like his point is right, and we will never know

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Speaker 1: fully what deals were on the table. I think Scott's

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Speaker 1: big point today was that the deals, the other deals

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Speaker 1: they could have made and did not. They're still glad

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Speaker 1: they didn't make those moves. We don't know exactly what

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Speaker 1: those deals are. Part you're dealing with the market, but

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Speaker 1: as an executive, you're also tasked with trying to create

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Speaker 1: a market. I think it's hard to look at the

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Speaker 1: deadline and how this season ended and not wish he

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Speaker 1: would have done a little bit more. But that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean like Scott still has a point in the way

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Speaker 1: he's framing it. Sometimes it is easy to overrate and

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Speaker 1: overvalue deadline acquisitions. One point I've been trying to force

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Speaker 1: for a while. The reason there was so much focus

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Speaker 1: on the deadline is because some other decisions went wrong

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Speaker 1: for the Tigers this year, moves they made back in

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Speaker 1: the offseason. Alex Cobb, John Brebia the pair that with

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Speaker 1: some injuries and their pitching was thin, and then there

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Speaker 1: was a pressure to add at the deadline when you lose,

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Speaker 1: when you fall short in the Alds when your bullpen

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Speaker 1: was pretty thin. I don't think you can say, hey,

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Speaker 1: we got everything right. But if he believes that, you know,

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Speaker 1: he's glad they didn't make these other hypothetical trades, then

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Speaker 1: I do believe him on that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, on that note, do you believe they're kicking themselves

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Speaker 3: over not kind of outbidding the Red Sox to get

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Speaker 3: Alex Bregman because that would have obviously solved a lot

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Speaker 3: of issues.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a fair question. And when we

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Speaker 1: talk about payroll, that is worth bringing up. There was

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Speaker 1: so much made like the Tigers did make a competitive

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Speaker 1: offer to Alex Bregman, they were willing to go six years,

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Speaker 1: which in the winner, none of us, myself included, thought

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Speaker 1: they were. And then it kind of begs the question, well,

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Speaker 1: if you were willing to goes six years, why didn't

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Speaker 1: this deal get done? You know, why not kick up

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Speaker 1: the AAV a little bit more if you're if you're

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Speaker 1: already in that territory. We'll see if Alex Bregman opts out.

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Speaker 1: I think it'll be fascinating if he does, because he

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Speaker 1: again checks pretty much every box the Tigers need. But

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Speaker 1: he's another year older, another year of his prime or

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Speaker 1: close to his prime is gone. So are you going

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Speaker 1: to be willing to go five or six years again?

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Speaker 1: It's even riskier than it was last time around. If

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Speaker 1: they didn't want to do it, I would kind of understand. Uh,

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Speaker 1: which gets back to like the way to avoid all

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Speaker 1: this would have been to get the deal done last winter.

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Speaker 2: Coldy, I want to go back to the postseason. Let's rewind.

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Speaker 2: So the season ends weirdly, but they make it into

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Speaker 2: the playoffs, partially because the Astros crumbled down the stretch.

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Speaker 2: The Guardians were flying high, Tigers weren't, weren't and the

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Speaker 2: Tigers beat them. Cool, okay, made to DS. Now they

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Speaker 2: take the Mariners to a fifth game and they fall.

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Speaker 2: So let's go to that point. What did you learn

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Speaker 2: about the Tigers in that series and how can they

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Speaker 2: fix it going into the next season. Are there more

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Speaker 2: holes in the lineup than we think? Is there too

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Speaker 2: much platooning and scheming going on?

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Speaker 1: Or do you go okay?

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Speaker 2: I mean they took a team that might make it

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Speaker 2: to the World Series, to a fifth game here and

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Speaker 2: a fifteenth inning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they played better. They regained parts of

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Speaker 1: their identity in October. They also had a lot of

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Speaker 1: flaws show up. To your point, the lineup I think

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Speaker 1: has some holes in it. I think that is the

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Speaker 1: biggest and most difficult question for the Tigers this winter.

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Speaker 1: Because you have this core of homegrown position players. You're

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Speaker 1: going to bring back everyone except Glaber Torres. Well, Glaber Torres,

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Speaker 1: although he struggled down the stretch. Turns out he was

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Speaker 1: playing through a hernia. Was your best consistent quality at bat?

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Speaker 1: Was one of your best bat to ball on base guys.

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Speaker 1: You have some good hitters Riley Green, Spencer Torkelsen, Carrie Carpenter, others.

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Speaker 1: We have a lot of swing and miss, some chase tendencies.

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Speaker 1: Asked Scott Harris about that today. He talked about, Hey,

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Speaker 1: we're going to do some batpathwork. We're on approach like

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Speaker 1: that's all good. I think that can only help you

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Speaker 1: so much. Now they have drafted and developed differently under Harris.

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Speaker 1: Some of the guys rising through the system, like Kevin McGonagall,

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Speaker 1: have better bat to ball, contact oriented profiles that bodes

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Speaker 1: well for their future. But I'm not sure there's one

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Speaker 1: big fix coming in twenty twenty six. And unless you're

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Speaker 1: willing to move on from young players who you still

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Speaker 1: feel pretty good about, it's hard to know exactly how

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Speaker 1: you were going to reshape this lineup. I think the

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Speaker 1: Tigers are weighing these same questions, and that's why there's

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Speaker 1: some hard decisions ahead. But that's what stood out. That's

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Speaker 1: why they lost the DS. They pitched pretty well, they

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Speaker 1: struck out too much. They didn't have good quality at

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Speaker 1: bats with runners on base. Those of us who had

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Speaker 1: watched the Tigers all year saw that for all of September,

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Speaker 1: really for the bulk of the second half, and it

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Speaker 1: was heightened. I think when you're facing elite pitching like

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Speaker 1: that was a line players started using, well, we're facing

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Speaker 1: the best pitching in the world, and you were, and

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Speaker 1: it's not easy to hit Luis Castillo or whoever else

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Speaker 1: it might be. But that's the challenge, and that's the

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Speaker 1: challenge of winning in the playoffs, and the Tigers in

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Speaker 1: their lineup didn't quite have enough. That's part of why

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Speaker 1: they platooned so much. I think if you handed Aj

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Speaker 1: Hinch the lineup he had in Houston and said which

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Speaker 1: one would you like? He would take? You were down

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Speaker 1: Alvarez and Alex Bregman and Kyle Tucker and all of

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Speaker 1: those guys who you don't necessarily have to platoon as much.

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Speaker 1: That's why there's not one easy solution. But overall they

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Speaker 1: need a little bit more in the lineup.

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Speaker 4: I can't and maybe this is a cop out, but

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Speaker 4: you just said you can't really get rid of some

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Speaker 4: of the guys that you have because they're so young.

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Speaker 4: Can't we say some of this learning process is because

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Speaker 4: they're so young, or do you feel like the way

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Speaker 4: that they're used, Nobody in this lineup that's platooned is

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Speaker 4: gonna be able to make that like major leap and

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Speaker 4: jump that they need to make, which they know which

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Speaker 4: players normally make at this point in their career. I

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Speaker 4: know they're all different ages, but I'm saying that at

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Speaker 4: this point in their career, you get to that two

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Speaker 4: three years in the big leagues, that's when you start

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Speaker 4: to really hit your prime. So they aren't they just

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Speaker 4: primed for a progression and not a regression.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the hope. I think the argument against

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Speaker 1: that look no further than Riley Green, who's a great

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Speaker 1: young hitter, a really talented player, he hit thirty six

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Speaker 1: home runs. This year, he achieved like his ultimate power

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Speaker 1: ceiling and Riley Green's first three years, his walker rates

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Speaker 1: went up, his strikeout rates went down. That changed in

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Speaker 1: a big way this year and he struck out more

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Speaker 1: than two hundred times. Was that because he was chasing

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Speaker 1: too much power? I don't know. The chase rate was

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Speaker 1: also through the roof, so it wasn't just the swing

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Speaker 1: and missing in the zone he was chasing. He was

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Speaker 1: selecting bad pitches. So that's kind of always like the fallacy,

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Speaker 1: or at least the risk in player development and betting

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Speaker 1: on young hitters is it's not always linear. It's not

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Speaker 1: always this perfect regression. And then sometimes the profiles of

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Speaker 1: players who swing and miss, although they can make incremental gains,

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Speaker 1: if this is still someone who's prone to chasing or

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Speaker 1: prone to whipping, can you really expect that to have

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Speaker 1: a drastic change. I'm not sure. I don't think the

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Speaker 1: Tigers should have abandoned Rightley Green by any means, or

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Speaker 1: really any of their young hitters, But I think that's

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Speaker 1: just what makes it hard if that If that makes

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Speaker 1: any sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Cody, a lot to discuss, a lot to digest,

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Speaker 2: here over the offseason. But now the Tigers have time,

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Speaker 2: and I will say it was a fun rollercoaster ride

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Speaker 2: where krats. Let's bring crats on. Actually for the closing line,

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Speaker 2: what did you say about the Tigers last night on

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Speaker 2: our postgame show when we were talking about the Blue

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Speaker 2: Jays and the Mariners.

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Speaker 4: Maybe the Tigers they would have never scored, like we

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Speaker 4: would still be playing, we'd be in like inning thirty

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Speaker 4: six just because they weren't willing to They weren't willing

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Speaker 4: they got they get six guys on the leadoff innings,

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Speaker 4: they weren't willing to move them over. They weren't willing

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Speaker 4: to do things in the game that said, you know what,

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Speaker 4: I just don't got it. And I go back to

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Speaker 4: like mayat bats, there were sometimes where there's a dude

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Speaker 4: on the mound, there's a runner on third and one out,

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Speaker 4: and I'm like, good chance, I probably am not getting

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Speaker 4: a hit against this guy. And I'm the most falsely

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Speaker 4: confident person in myself in the world. I'm like, maybe

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Speaker 4: I need to put a bunt down. Like they just

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Speaker 4: seemed like there was things that were indicative to the

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Speaker 4: fact that the Tigers were not going to score a

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Speaker 4: run in that game. No matter who the Mariners threw

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Speaker 4: out there, they might have brought Randy Johnson and each

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Speaker 4: Row back to pitch.

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Speaker 1: You're kind of right, Cratsy, like it did feel like

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Speaker 1: that at a time. So again, does these guys getting

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Speaker 1: a year older change that or does there have to

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Speaker 1: be a bigger shift and either approach or personnel.

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Speaker 4: I think it changes it. I think it changes it

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Speaker 4: because you get you get smarter. Cap He would agree

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Speaker 4: with me. You might not get physically better. Dylan Dayler

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Speaker 4: is not going to throw the ball harder or hit

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Speaker 4: it farther as he gets older, but you get smarter,

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Speaker 4: and you're like, I am sick and tired of swinging

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Speaker 4: at the slider down in a way, And then I'm

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Speaker 4: sick and tired of watching the eight other guys swing

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Speaker 4: at the slider down in a way. Besides Kerry Carpenter,

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Speaker 4: he can hit a slider, but everyone else is like,

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Speaker 4: this has got to be the fastball. No, not the fastball.

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Speaker 2: Hey, last one for you, Cody. I know they just

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Speaker 2: officially made a J. Hinch's contract extension a thing, so

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Speaker 2: I think we originally found out about it maybe a

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Speaker 2: month ago. I'm assuming they love him and want him

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Speaker 2: there for a long period of time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is actually the second contract extension he's got

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Speaker 1: in a couple of years, which is which is interesting.

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Speaker 1: They have not released the exact terms of the deal.

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Speaker 1: It was believed his first Tiger's contract went through twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five, but he was extended in twenty twenty three

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Speaker 1: for unknown length of years, and you just got another extension.

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Speaker 1: Maybe fair to assume that's going to have a handsome

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Speaker 1: raise for AJ. Don't know how long he's under contract now,

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Speaker 1: but sounds like it's going to be a long time.

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Speaker 1: AJ is a great manager, a tremendous tactician. Maybe it

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Speaker 1: wasn't perfect when the lights were on and every decision

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Speaker 1: is scrutinized a little more in the playoffs, but he's

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Speaker 1: well regarded for a reason, and I think it's a

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Speaker 1: good thing he's going to be sticking around in Detroit

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Speaker 1: for a while. The interesting aspect there is it does

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Speaker 1: seem like Craig Councils, where a managers are starting to

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Speaker 1: get longer contracts, a little more power and control. But

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Speaker 1: it's still rare to see managers with these long term deals,

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Speaker 1: maybe under contract longer than their executives, and you do

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Speaker 1: kind of wonder what does that look like five six

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Speaker 1: years down the line, what does that look like if

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Speaker 1: something goes wrong? But aj Hinch has been a big

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Speaker 1: part of the Tigers, you know, emerging from a rebuilding

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Speaker 1: a postseason team, and it's a positive sign that they've

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Speaker 1: taken proactive steps to lock them up.

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Speaker 2: Cody, great Stuff. Really enjoyed your coverage, both of course

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Speaker 2: writing wise with The Athletic and on Tiger Territory, listening

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Speaker 2: to many of your episodes with Kieren Steckley and Austin

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Speaker 2: Jackson on some select episodes as well. Rest up, but

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Speaker 2: we'll still be listening to Tiger Territory in the offseason.

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Speaker 1: Thanks man, it sounds good. Thanks guys, appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: And then we wanted to get to this article for

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Speaker 2: a while, Year of the South pot inside the surge

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Speaker 2: of MLB's dominant and historic left handed pitching. It's in

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Speaker 2: The Athletic, written by Stephen Nes, but of course it

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Speaker 2: applies here in the postseason, as five of the top

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Speaker 2: seven starting pitching eras in baseball this year belonged to

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Speaker 2: left handed starters. How many starts do left handed pitchers

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Speaker 2: make up in baseball. We're down to about a quarter

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Speaker 2: of starts the er discrepancy this year. As we're looking

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Speaker 2: at some of the top starters in the sport, and

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Speaker 2: how many any of them are left handed? Three seven

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Speaker 2: to three ERA for lefties four to three to zero

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Speaker 2: for raise. It's the greatest differential since ERA became an

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Speaker 2: official stat in nineteen thirteen. And it's not even close

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Speaker 2: how much of a difference it is by adjusted era.

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Speaker 2: It's the most dominant left handed season in the modern era.

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Speaker 2: You're looking at other year comparisons and they're from like

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Speaker 2: way back. Some of the years you're looking at us like,

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Speaker 2: oh the next closest, like nineteen twenty four. It's that crazy,

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Speaker 2: And they went over reasons. But let's start there, KP.

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Speaker 2: Why is left handed pitching getting more scarce but more dominant.

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Speaker 3: I don't have the answer to that, but I do

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Speaker 3: want to flip this table right now because as a

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Speaker 3: right handed platoon hitter, who is the person who gets

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Speaker 3: short changed the most.

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Speaker 1: In this game?

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Speaker 3: You need quality right handed hitters to face these guys.

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Speaker 3: I know ninety percent of the pitchers are right handed

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Speaker 3: and they're not going to play. But as you showed

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Speaker 3: those steps. All five of those guys that were on

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Speaker 3: those that leaderboard started playoff games, and if you're trying

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Speaker 3: to win playoff games, pay right handed plute tune hitters

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Speaker 3: more money. That's it.

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Speaker 2: Nice, nice, Not where I thought we were going, but

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Speaker 2: I'll take it. I'll take it. We got holding on

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Speaker 2: that one for a while.

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Speaker 3: I've been holding on that one for a while because

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Speaker 3: it is the job. It's the job because you don't

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Speaker 3: play a majority of the time. But if you're facing

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Speaker 3: the best pitching is coming from the left side, you

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Speaker 3: need to be able to counter those guys, because god knows,

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Speaker 3: lefties aren't facing lefties. So you got to throw on

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Speaker 3: a guy like me off the bench who's expected to

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Speaker 3: play once a month or once every couple of days,

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Speaker 3: once a week. But usually you're getting the best pitchers

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Speaker 3: in the game. You're getting the Blake snows to Christopher Sanchez,

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Speaker 3: the trek scoobles that, the abbots of the world, and

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Speaker 3: you want me to go on and hit them, and

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Speaker 3: I'm the least paid guy on your bench. Start valuing

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Speaker 3: the right handed platoon bat a little bit more because

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Speaker 3: we're seeing this flux of left handed pitching being dominating

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Speaker 3: so you need to be able to counter that.

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Speaker 4: Mike drop.

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Speaker 3: Kratzy follow that.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I'm just like, that is one hundred percent right

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Speaker 4: if and I think the biggest key was if you

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Speaker 4: want to win in the playoffs, because all of a

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Speaker 4: sudden in the playoffs, you're like, well, well we'll stack

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Speaker 4: our We'll stack our lineup with a bunch of writings,

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Speaker 4: and these writings are like, all right, well, I've got

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Speaker 4: thirty seven days in the big leagues. I've got a

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Speaker 4: year and a half in the big leagues. You have

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Speaker 4: to you have to be able to have that veteran

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Speaker 4: guy that it's okay if he doesn't play for a

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Speaker 4: little while. Justin Turner, we just talked about it was

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Speaker 4: so how did do Sharma like you have to give

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Speaker 4: You have to give these guys there's value in that,

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Speaker 4: And teams are like, no, actually, there's no value in it,

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Speaker 4: and we're not going to pay for it, And they

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Speaker 4: get bounced out out before the playoffs even start.

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Speaker 2: Usually, how much of it has to do with the

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Speaker 2: exposure and that being a continued limitation with their being

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Speaker 2: less left handed pitching, and also the way that the

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Speaker 2: attack plan goes these days, you know this boring. In

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Speaker 2: the article talks about how the plan used to be

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Speaker 2: more about four seamers away and breakers, and there's good

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Speaker 2: quotes in here too from some notable big leaguers. Let's

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Speaker 2: say i'll pick out Alex Bregman. Early on in his career,

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Speaker 2: he said, lefty is attacked with fastballs and change ups away.

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Speaker 2: Now they're coming up and in really good four seam

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Speaker 2: fastballs in. So it's lefties getting better against lefties, which

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Speaker 2: is already a problem. It's left handed pitchers getting better

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Speaker 2: against right handed hitters. Is that what you're seeing KP

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Speaker 2: to solve? Why it's such a problem for bats to

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Speaker 2: be able to solve left handed pitching, and why it's

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Speaker 2: becoming such a hot commodity.

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Speaker 3: Again, they're evolving, like you said, I mean you weren't

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Speaker 3: seeing also the high velocity from the lefties. It was

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Speaker 3: maybe one guy you would see through really hard. But

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Speaker 3: now they've just learned how to do different stuff. Like

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Speaker 3: Bregman said, it used to be kind of this fastball way,

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Speaker 3: change up off attack. Now you have guys that just

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Speaker 3: constantly shove cutters in. They'll throw the four team up

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Speaker 3: and in, then they'll throw the change of away you know,

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Speaker 3: they've gotten better at using all four quadrants of the plate.

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Speaker 3: It used to be kind of predictable. You were gonna

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Speaker 3: get a fastball change up guy, where you would get

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Speaker 3: a fastball slider guy. Now most of these guys have

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Speaker 3: all four pitches, so it makes it really hard to

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Speaker 3: cover an entire part of the plate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the lefties, the lefties were I mean, think about

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Speaker 4: when I first got caught up to the big leies.

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Speaker 4: On our team. We had Zach Duke, Paul Mahome, and

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Speaker 4: I remember Carlos Lee was playing for the Astros who

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Speaker 4: were still in the National League, and he was like,

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Speaker 4: he was like, hey, where is all the He said,

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Speaker 4: where is all the guys who throw eighty six? He said,

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Speaker 4: Now everybody throws hard and his teammate goes, he goes,

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Speaker 4: wait till he play the Pirates. They got a bunch

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Speaker 4: of guys that throw slow, like those lefties used to

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Speaker 4: get opportunities to come up. And I'm not saying those

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Speaker 4: guys weren't good. It was just that they don't have

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Speaker 4: the stuff that guys have now. Before it was like

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Speaker 4: left hand, let me say, can you pitch yep, you

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Speaker 4: have a pulseals So you can pitch now it's like

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Speaker 4: you're left handed, it's cool. But if you don't throw

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Speaker 4: ninety five, like, sorry, we can't really use you.

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Speaker 2: Last legs thirty seconds here. I know AJ wanted to

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Speaker 2: talk about this too, but he's not here today. He

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Speaker 2: talked about left he's thrown BP or anything else that

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Speaker 2: can try to counter this and get you prepared. Is

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Speaker 2: there way to prepare better for this?

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Speaker 3: I mean that's a good start. Left handed BP thrower

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Speaker 3: wouldn't hurt. Okay, also pay right handed hitters a little

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Speaker 3: bit more of the platoon guys. That would help.

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Speaker 2: Okay, there you go. Well, anyone else have thoughts let

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Speaker 2: us know. But really good article and it's pretty long,

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Speaker 2: but it was fascinating. I got through it in a

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Speaker 2: few minutes. You could compete the rolic could numbers in

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Speaker 2: there if you want to check it out. Good job,

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Speaker 2: Bye Steven Nesbit.