WEBVTT - Halloween Special: The Mystery Show! 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.200 Welcome to Part Time Genius, the production of I Heart Radio. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.200 Guess what, Mango? What's that? Well? All right, so I 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:17.560 know you know FDR accomplished a lot in his lifetime. 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.759 You did know this, right, FDR was a pretty accomplished guy. Well, 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:23.480 I don't know if you do this, but he actually 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.720 once assembled a team of writers to help write his 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:30.160 own mystery novels. You know this. I actually did because 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:32.520 John Green told me this years and years ago when 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:34.880 when we used to work at Metaphlops. But I actually 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:37.560 don't remember any of the details. Good because I was 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.479 hoping I could teach you something. I'll refresh your memory here. 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.440 So Roosevelt was a big fan of detective stories, and 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:45.800 so towards the end of his first term, he held 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:47.960 this dinner at the White House and he and his 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.879 buddies picked apart their favorite mysteries. This must have been 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.519 such a fun conversation to listen in on. But so 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:55.280 one of the guests that evening was a man named 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:57.240 Fulton or Sler, and he was an editor of a 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.760 magazine called Liberty. They published all these miss three stories. 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:03.600 And during the dinner, he asked FDR if he'd ever 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:06.560 considered writing a mystery, And it turned out that the 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.360 President had been playing with this plot for a while, 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:11.759 just in his head, and so here was his idea. 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:15.200 The wealthy man named Jim Blake feels trapped in his 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.280 own life. He's bored by his job, on happy in 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.000 his marriage, and he thinks all people in his life 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.200 are superficial yes men. And so the story is about 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:27.880 Jim Blake's plan to escape, which is basically to run 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.039 off with five million dollars and start over with a 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:34.040 new identity. So I don't remember any of those details, 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:36.200 but it kind of sounds like Jim Blake is just 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:38.720 based on Roosevelt, right, Yeah, it kind of feels like 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:40.720 that might be the case. But the one thing that 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:43.360 Roosevelt couldn't figure out for his story was how a 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:46.800 well known man with five million dollars could ever disappear 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.960 without a trace. So he put the question to Oorsler 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:52.920 that night at the White House, and the editor suggested 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:55.720 they assemble this committee of mystery writers to solve the 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:59.440 problem together. And Roosevelt loved this idea, and Orsler put 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.120 togethers well known mystery writers, and you know, each of 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.520 them had to work on a different chapter of the story, 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.960 and that fall, the first installment was published in Liberty Magazine, 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:12.520 and before long the full story was released as a 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.160 book and then as a movie, both of which were 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.720 a pretty big hit with the public. I'm curious, what's 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.239 the solution to the President's mystery? Well, this is the 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:22.120 ridiculous part of the whole thing, Like none of the 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.520 writers actually managed to solve the mystery that Roosevelt had 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:27.799 laid out. And you know, the key problem of how 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.840 to disappear with five million dollars remain unaddressed in that novel, 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.600 or at least it did up until nineteen sixties seven, 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.080 And that's when the book was reissued with one additional chapter. 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.040 And it was written by Earl Stanley Gardner. Oh yeah, 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:44.400 he wrote the Harry Mason books. Yep. So it kind 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:45.960 of sounds like this book was put together kind of 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:48.679 like those exquisite corpse drawings where you kind of like 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.120 try to draw an animal and then you base your 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.960 drawing on the last squiggle someone drew. Was this book 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.400 any good or just popular? Because I kind of want 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.640 to track it down. Well, I was looking at some 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:01.720 of the comments I've seen it referred to as quote 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.799 one of the worst suspense novels ever written. So I'm 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:07.079 gonna go out a limb here and say it's probably 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:09.480 not worth the bother, or maybe that is why it's 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.120 absolutely worth the bother, because it is that bad. But 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.400 I do like the story behind the story, and you know, 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:17.720 since it's right around Halloween, I thought it'd be fun 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:20.800 to settle into a nice mystery episode from who were 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.680 the pioneers of the genre to how did Agatha Christie 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:26.760 crank out so many spooky stories? So let's dive in. 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:51.400 H Hey, their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:53.560 I'm Will Pearson and it's always I'm joined by my 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:55.960 good friend Man Guesh Ticketer on the other side of 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:59.520 the soundproof glass trying to tape a magnifying glass to 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:03.040 this side of a pumpkin. It's pumpkin carving day here, mangoes. 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.840 So this is this is pretty exciting. That's our producer Lull. 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.600 He's been working so hard on this. I don't really 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.280 know what's going on with the magnifying glass and the pumpkin. 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.720 He's trying really really hard, so hopefully he'll focus on 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.000 this and I think what's going on is he may 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.400 have missed the memo about us doing a mystery episode 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.080 for Halloween this year, and this is kind of a 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.520 last minute attempt to get with the program. But anyway, 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.240 I'm excited about today's episode. Well, I do think it 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.120 would probably work better if he hadn't already carved Darth 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:31.360 Vader's mask into the front of it. But I do 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.599 appreciate the effort that Low is putting into it, because 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:35.560 he always put so much effort in you know, I 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.440 know you suggested doing the show on mysteries, and as 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.200 you might remember, I was obsessed with mysteries growing up. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:43.240 I do remember that. And actually you dressed up as 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:47.120 Sherlock Holmes for a few Halloween's in a row third grade, 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.440 fourth grade. And I think Ruby has also gotten the bug, 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:52.960 because she's you know, she's six now, but she dressed 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.120 up as Inspector Clusseau from Pink Panther last year and 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:57.760 this year she went his night the grade, which is 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:02.359 basically the same costume without a mustache. But you know, 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:04.600 it's it's funny because like, my mom got me this 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.200 a Bridge Sherlock Holmes book in second grade, and I 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:10.160 kind of just went on a tear, like I had 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.720 already read a bunch of Hardy Boys and Cyclopedia Browns, 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.480 and then I got obsessed with Agatha Christie and Sherlock Holmes. 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:18.920 But what's funny is I was thinking about this yesterday. 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:22.520 I must have been so insufferable because at the time 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:24.680 I had always like wander around the neighborhood just looking 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.239 for dumb mysteries to solve. Yeah, I think it's pretty 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.320 safe that you probably were her. But what do you 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:33.160 mean by this? Well, like, there's this kid in my 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.159 neighborhood who just used to exaggerate and tell really dumb 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.480 wise all the time. Like I remember him claiming he 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.920 was the kid world boxing champion, Like I don't even 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.080 know what that is. But you know, instead of us 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:46.839 being like, oh, really shows the trophies or like shows 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:48.720 your punching bag or anything to that effect, I I 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:51.400 remember like walking up to him with like these other 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:53.880 kids and pointing out like, oh, well, you know, if 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:55.800 you'd really been around the world, you'd have a tan 0:05:56.040 --> 0:06:00.400 here and here and here, just like I feel like 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.280 I got that from somewhere. But yeah, that's that's impresident. 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.760 I can see that same quality in Ruby. That's pretty great. 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.920 I am I'm glad that you you managed. Did you 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.040 in fact crack the case on that one? Yeah, it 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.200 turns out he didn't win the kid boxing cham got 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.120 to the bottom of that one. All right, Well, let's 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:18.400 get to the episode. Where where do you think you 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:20.839 want to start today? So I actually really like that 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:22.880 you started with FDR and I kind of want to 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:24.760 go back to presidents for a minute, because one of 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:26.360 the things I noticed this week is that like a 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:30.200 ton of US presidents were self professed mystery buffs. Calvin 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:34.039 Coolidge was one, Herbert Hoover, jfk, Ronald Reagan, and and 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:36.520 the list goes on. Actually, we were looking at something 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:38.479 the other day. I think Bill Clinton was also into 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:40.800 mysteries too, wasn't he? Yeah he was when when when 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:42.880 he first took off, as he reportedly tried to finish 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.320 two serious books for every mystery he read. But you know, 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:48.839 as his term went on and the pressure mounted on him, 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:50.880 like that ratio ended up being more one to one. 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.600 But it's funny because like, wow, that was great escapism 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:55.719 for him. Then when he was in public office, he's 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:58.400 actually still really into mysteries and he co wrote a 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.159 thriller with James Patterson last year called the President is missing. 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.360 Oh that's right. So if you're going to rank these, 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.159 would you say Clinton was our biggest mystery fan turn 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:11.920 President I, I mean, I guess he's near the top 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.320 and uh an FDR two. But Woodrow Wilson would also 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:17.800 make the top spot because he's actually the president who 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.960 did the most to improve the genre's reputation. Wow, So 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:22.920 why why would you say that? Well, you know, for 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.920 a long time, mystery stories were kind of viewed as disposable. 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.240 They were entertaining, but they really lacked substance, or that's 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.200 what people thought, and most people actually relegated them to 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:36.360 almost like children's material or children's entertainment. But Wilson helped 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.480 change that perception. He was so open about his love 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.040 for detective stories that publishers actually used his endorsements in 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.160 office as ads when promoting their books. And Wilson was 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.920 actually pretty instrumental in convincing the public that detective stories 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:54.720 had merit. It's funny because in this book, critic wrote, quote, 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:57.800 two men are largely responsible for the present vogue of 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.640 mystery stories in America, Arthur and Doyle and Woodrow Wilson. 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.360 You've got the creator of Sherlock Holmes and the president. 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.960 That's that's pretty crazy. It's interesting though, that all the 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.520 examples we've given our twentieth century presidents, like, if you 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:13.239 think about it, were mystery books just not that popular 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:15.760 prior to the nineteen hundreds, or presidents just not reading 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.280 them yet or what what's the scoop on that? Yeah, 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:20.440 so the genre was still finding its footing in the 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.640 eighteen hundreds, which is something we can come back to. 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.000 But a lot of people in the nineteenth century weren't 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.840 sold on popular fiction in general. It was kind of 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:31.520 thought of as on savory or frivolous. But there was 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.040 at least one president who was on board the mystery 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.319 train from the very very start. It's good old Abe 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:41.240 Lincoln and uh apparently he was a huge fan of 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.839 Edgar Allan pose detective stories, and he loved the work 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.760 so much he could actually quote full passages from memory. 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.080 And it kind of makes you wonder what the draw 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.080 was for all of these presidents. I mean, what are 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:52.920 the odds that so many of them would be into 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.199 such a niche genre, Because you know, if if we're 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.839 simply talking about finding escapism, you know, why not read 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.720 adventure stories or sci fi or fantasy or some of 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:03.600 these other genres. You know, what's funny to me is 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.000 like that we keep talking about it as escapism because 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.160 mysteries are the one genre that you kind of have 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.880 to pay attention to every single sentence, right, Like every 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.319 sentence can have a clue, So you're almost like doubling 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.240 down on comprehension skills. Or maybe that's a that's a 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.720 good reason that people do escape in them. But you know, 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.520 in Lincoln's case, it was supposedly the logic of the 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.200 mystery stories that appeal to him, and in fact, one 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:27.800 of his contemporaries put it, quote, the absolute and logical 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.960 method of post tales appeal to his bent of mind. 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.079 And I'm sure it's a similar story for other presidents 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.839 who loved a good mystery. Like their job entails so 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.720 much problem solving, so it kind of makes sense that 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:42.600 they gravitate to this like form of entertainment where they 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:44.680 can sort of exercise that skill set. All right, Well, 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:46.959 since we're starting to dissect the genre a little bit, 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.480 I do think it would be helpful to clarify what 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.200 exactly a mystery is, because so far we've been using 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:56.120 a bunch of terms sort of interchangeably, but there are 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.360 actually some pretty key differences, you know, for instance, between 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.000 mystery and a thriller. So just just to start, we 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:05.200 should say that the kinds of stories we're talking about 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:09.319 today all technically fall under the larger genre of suspense, 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:14.160 so that includes mystery novels, crime novels, and thrillers. So 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.840 for a mystery, the drive action of the story is 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.040 the solution to a crime, like usually a murder, but 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.679 sometimes a theft or a kidnapping. So the story follows 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:26.640 some kind of detective or professional in the field as 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.800 they try to determine who did the crime and why. 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:32.440 And so you can have what's called a cozy mystery, 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:36.400 which are your Miss Marble stories or your Father Brown mysteries, 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:39.199 where the action is set in a sleepy small town, 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:42.080 making the violence of the crime, you know, all that 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.880 much more shocking. And in contrast to those cozy mysteries, 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.520 you've got these hard boiled mysteries. And these are the 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:50.560 ones where the hero is kind of a world weary 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.160 cop or a private investigator, like the Sam Spade character 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:58.160 and the National Hammett books or Raymond Chandler's Philip Marlowe character, 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:00.800 you know, both of whom were played on screen by 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.400 Humphrey Bogart. By the way, and as Chandler Wants explained, 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.959 a hard wild hero is someone who can quote walk 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.199 the main streets, but who is not himself mean, which 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.600 all makes sense. So what about a crime novel, Like, 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.640 what's the difference between that and a mystery? Well, technically, 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:18.840 in a crime novel, there really isn't much of a 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.120 mystery to solve. I mean a lot of the times 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:23.840 the identity of the criminal is known from the very beginning, 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.080 so the question is more about how the lawman hero 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.160 will catch them in the end. So, for example, the 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:33.720 movie Seven isn't really a mystery. It's a crime drama, 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:36.440 so we know who the killer is, and the bulk 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:40.360 of the film revolves around two detectives trying different tactics, 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:42.720 you know, to bring him in, right, you're sort of 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.439 like frustratingly watching their process and watching them figure it out. 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.000 So what about thrillers, Well, maybe the biggest distinction is 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:54.120 that ghosts, monsters, and these other supernatural elements are all 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.400 fair game for a thriller, Like they aren't required features 0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.839 of the genre. But You're much more likely to come 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:01.640 a cross them in a thriller than you are and 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.560 say a mystery or a crime story. So just to 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:06.480 make sure we keep it all straight, you can think 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.600 of it like this, Mystery stories are the most cerebral 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.400 and least violent of the suspense genres. Crime stories are 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.240 the most dramatic, and thrillers are the most I guess emotional, 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:20.559 kind of playing up the fear and dread of the characters. 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.240 So each kind of story has shared elements, such as 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.160 crimes and detectives, but they each have distinctions that kind 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.880 of make them, you know, utilize their own unique things. 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.959 So I I know Edgar Allan post spedly wrote like 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.679 the first detective story, but were there suspense stories or 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.440 mystery novels before that? I mean, it's impossible to say 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:41.400 for certain, but who probably make the case for Oedipus 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.440 Rex being the first mystery story you know written by 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.800 Sophocles and it it deals with the title character trying 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.160 to solve the mystery of his origins and so to 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:56.000 do that, he questions witnesses, interprets clues, slowly pieces together 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:59.800 the tragic truth about his parentage. No spoilers here, and 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.679 you've managed to avoid them for the last few thousand 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:07.440 years exactly. But it isn't the only one, Like there 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.720 are examples of mysteries in early Chinese and Arabian fiction, 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.480 and probably countless others that we just don't know about. 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.679 But in terms of modern fiction, I think it's probably 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:18.400 fair to say. I mean, the one that's brought up 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.760 most is Edgar Allan posty one story The Murders and 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.800 Rue Morgue, and this is widely believed to be the 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.640 first modern story in which a character solves a mystery 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:32.599 by analyzing the facts and following the clues. So I 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.480 am curious. Did Poe consider his mystery stories to be 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.000 like a new kind of fiction, because it kind of 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.680 sounds like the groundwork was already laid by these earlier 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.400 authors and he just kind of reinvented it for the 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.959 modern age. Is that how he saw it? Or did 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:48.000 he feel like he just like completely invented this thing 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:49.920 from scratch? Yeah, I mean, I think he had a 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.480 pretty level head about his role in all this. You know, 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:56.560 Following the success of Rue Morgue, Popen further mystery stories, 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:00.360 including the Mystery of Marie Roge and and that was 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.360 in eighteen forty two, The Purloined Letter in eighteen forty four, 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:06.319 and a couple of years later he wrote a letter 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.040 to a friend explaining his take on the budding genre. 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.079 So here's what he said about it. These tales owe 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.040 most of their popularity to being something old in a 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:17.400 new key. I do not mean to say that they're 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.520 not ingenious, but people think them more ingenious than they 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.520 are on account of their method and air of method, 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.440 you know. But what Pope probably didn't know is that 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:30.160 he was establishing elements that would become trademarks of the genre, 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.080 just for example here, but was careful to lay out 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:35.880 the clues throughout the story so that his readers could 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.400 have a crack at solving the mystery themselves, which is 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:40.640 part of what makes them so much fun. And that 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.320 was a tactic that future writers like Agatha Christie would 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:47.040 later use. And then another defining feature that Poe introduced 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.680 was the idea of having a recurring detective, you know, 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.160 appeared in multiple stories, and that of course paved the 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.720 way for characters like Sherlock Holmes, Miss Marble and plenty 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:58.480 of others. Yeah, I mean, I have to say that 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.560 was much more of a definitive answer that I was expecting. 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:06.120 It does seem like Edgar Allan Poe invented the mystery genre, 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.360 is like how I was thinking about it before. I 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.880 feel like maybe there's a little bit more to unravel here. 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:13.000 But before we get into that, let's take a quick break. 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:29.240 You're listening to Part Time Genius, and you were talking 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.840 about all the twists and turns the mystery genre has 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.320 taken over the years. Okay, well, so it seems like 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:37.000 before the break you might have duped us like you 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.800 made it seemed like Poe invented mystery stories. But then 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:44.160 also maybe not. I don't know that duped to anybody, 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.320 but I mean there are important caveats to the Poe explanation. 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.240 So for starters, the mysteries that Poe wrote, they were 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.000 all short stories, as you know. And if you want 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.160 to know who wrote the first modern mystery novel, and 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:59.560 the person you're probably looking for is Wilkie Collins, who 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.520 wrote a brawling mystery called The Moonstone. Now this was 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.400 in eighteen sixty eight. Like post stories from a few 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.600 decades prior, collins book included a ton of elements that 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.520 have since come to define the mystery genre as well, 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.480 what are you talking about exactly here? Well, you know, 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.560 take the eccentric detective, the inept police force, some mannor 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:22.200 house setting, and of course a reenactment of the crime 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.320 to be solved. So like poets the credit for mystery 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.280 shorts laying out some of the clues, and and Collins 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.400 gets the nod for mystery novels. Well, even that is 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.320 a little bit murky. I know you're wanting these definitive answers. 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:36.720 We got, we got a drill in a little bit O. 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.480 For the last hundred years or so, Wilkie Collins was 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.560 the go to answer. But about a decade ago that 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:44.920 was a pretty big discovery made by a professor at 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.800 Portland State University, a guy named Paul Collins, no relation 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.800 to Wilkie. But it turns out that another writer's detective 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:56.200 novel had actually made it to market before The Moonstone. 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:00.280 Charles Felix debuted his story The notting Hill Miss Three 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:04.520 in eighteen sixty two, a full six years before Wilkie's novel. 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.920 The story initially ran as these eight installments in a 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.760 weekly magazine. Then it was published in book form a 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.240 few years later, where it was met with actually pretty 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.440 rave reviews. So, according to Professor Collins quote, the whole 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.840 idea of a detective novel was basically new to book critics, 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:23.159 and in fact, they almost didn't even know how to 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.080 react to it or explain it to their readers. One 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.560 of the reviews that came out said this is best 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.760 understood like a game of solitaire, or like a puzzle 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.160 that you've been handed to figure out. Collins was also 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.320 quoted saying the genre really didn't exist at that point, 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:40.480 so they had to explain to readers that the whole 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.760 idea behind this is that you've been handed a puzzle 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.639 that's pretty interesting. But you know, if Felix's mystery was 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:49.879 such a game changer, then how come no one seems 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.560 to remember it, or like even the author for that matter. 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.480 I mean, that's a good question. And the answer is, 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:58.920 Professor Collins found out, is that Charles Felix didn't actually exist. 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:02.679 And of course the another mystery, another twist for you here, 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:04.879 and that was a pen name coined by the author, 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.760 Charles Warren Adams. And this is something Collins discovered while 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.040 he was searching through the archives of the book's defunct publisher, 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.040 now The strange thing though, was that after searching through 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.760 hundreds and hundreds of documents, Collins couldn't find a single 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:22.080 word of correspondence between the author and the publisher, Like 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:23.960 you think there would have been a submission letter or 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.040 some kind of discussion of payment, but there was nothing 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.399 to be found. So then the mystery became, why was 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.879 there no correspondence between the publisher and the author? And 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.440 I'm guessing the answer was he was the publisher. Yeah, man, mango, 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:39.359 you've still got it. You're getting You're getting the hang 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:44.320 of this. Charles Warren Adams was the author and the publisher. 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.880 So Adams published his own mystery under the name Felix, 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:50.640 and you know, and then when the company went under 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.280 in the eighteen seventies, the first mystery novel and the 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.080 man who wrote it fell off the map. Now that 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.320 was until Collins finally cracked the case. That's pretty incredible 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.280 and and not sell Wilkie Collins or Charles Felix Shure. 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.320 But I do kind of want to go to bat 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.920 for our old friend Edgar Allan Pope, Like he may 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.159 not have written the world's first detective novel, but he 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.840 did directly inspire the creation of one of the genre's 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.920 most enduring characters, and that would be Sherlock Holmes. And 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:21.439 uh Sherlock's creator was not really that shy about crediting 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.920 the inspiration either. Conan Doyle once wrote, quote, each of 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.440 post detective stories is a route from which a whole 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:31.080 literature has developed. Where was the detective story until Pope 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.639 breathed the breath of life into it? Let's say it's 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.439 pretty nice tribute. It is. But but you know, if 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:41.000 you compare pose character with Sherlock, the similarities are pretty striking. 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:45.200 They're both armchair detectives, not professionals. They're both brought in 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.439 as consultants on cases that have the local police stumped. 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.400 They even both rely on on assuming sidekicks to help 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.040 with their cases. There's an unnamed narrator in in the 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.359 Pope book, and and uh Dr Watson for homes. But 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:00.600 you know, all of that said, there's at least one 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:04.439 famous detective trope for which Conan Doyle deserved soul credit, 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.840 and that is the magnifying glass. So apparently Shlock Holmes 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.200 is the first fictional character to ever use a magnifying 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:14.399 glass to help solve a mystery. I don't know. Lull's 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.880 shaking his head and he's mouthing Darth Vader. I think 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.560 he's putting in a different vote on this one. So 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.840 I wouldn't trust Litle on this one. But I do 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.480 want to mention though, that even though Post Detective was 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:27.920