1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Yesterday we talked about Tesla, the company leading the race 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,159 Speaker 1: to replace polluting combustion engine cars. Today, an even more 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: radical idea, what if we remove cars from our day 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: to day lives all together, and not just to be green, 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: but to be free of the hassle and cost of 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: a car centric existence. Bloomberg's Era Boodwet writes about one 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: place that's trying to do just that. It's a car 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: free apartment community under construction in Tempe, Arizona, and it's 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: designed around walking, biking, and public transit. 10 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 2: I think this can be something that is preferable, that 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: this is a better way to live that you save 12 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 2: on all the expenses of an automobile and enjoy all 13 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 2: the things that come with being a pedestrian and using 14 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: public transit. 15 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: I'm West Kosova today on the big tag no Parking 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: any Time. 17 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 3: Hey Iira, how's it going good. 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: I've been looking forward to talking to you about this 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: really interesting story. Why did you write it? 20 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: I was interested in this development from the first time 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 2: I heard of it. First of all, because I'm from Arizona. 22 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: I went to high school in Phoenix, and it struck 23 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: me as kind of crazy as a place to begin 24 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: a project of car free living, Phoenix seemed like maybe 25 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: exactly the wrong place, and that made it interesting, and 26 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 2: I think maybe it was partly what they were trying 27 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: to prove that you could do it anywhere. And also selfishly, 28 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: I love reporting trips to Arizona because that is where 29 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 2: my parents still are, so I get to go visit 30 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: them while I'm working. 31 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: You said that it's seemed like a strange place to 32 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: put it in the middle of Arizona. Why is that? 33 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: Why is Arizona such a strange place next and sunny warm? 34 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: You think you could walk easily. 35 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 2: Like a lot of American cities in the Sun Belt, 36 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 2: it is built for drivers. The public transit system is 37 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 2: kind of a last resort. It's largely for people who 38 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 2: can't afford a car. Nine out of ten households have 39 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 2: a car, and it's designed to go from place to 40 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: place in a car. And so while that is somewhat changing, 41 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: and there are pockets in areas that are a bit 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 2: more walkable, it is not a city that you would 43 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: place high on the list of walkability. 44 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: You talk about the heat, there is one reason where 45 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: people always want to be in an air conditioned environment, 46 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: like where they are and in between where're they are exactly. 47 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: And you know, the automobile is driving climate change for 48 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 2: a lot of people. It's one of the biggest sources 49 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: of our carbon emissions, and it is a refuge. You know, 50 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 2: this is one of the ironies of climate change. In 51 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: so many cases, the things that we do that make 52 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: it worse are also the things that we do to 53 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 2: adapt to it and deal with it. 54 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: So you went out there to see whether we're doing. 55 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: Tell us about this development. It's called could de Sac. 56 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 3: Yes, it's cul de Sac Tempe. 57 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: So. Tempe is a suburb of Phoenix. It's where Arizona 58 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,679 Speaker 2: State University is. It's part of the contiguous Valley of 59 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: the Sun, that big metropolis there. And they I've put 60 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,839 Speaker 2: this on a seventeen acre plot next to a light 61 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: rail stop. So a few years ago Phoenix started building 62 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: out a light rail that runs from Phoenix to Tempe 63 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 2: to Mesa. And it's not a complete system. It's not 64 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 2: like the subway where you can get anywhere you need 65 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 2: to go in New York City. 66 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 3: It's kind of just a spine. 67 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 2: It's a useful way to get to major locations, the airport, 68 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 2: downtown and so forth. They picked this spot right on 69 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: the light rail in Tempe that was underdeveloped. 70 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 3: It was mostly a. 71 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: Dirt lot, and they thought, we'll put here a community 72 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: for people who will not have parking spots. If you 73 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: are a resident there, you don't get a parking spot 74 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: and you have to promise not to park in the neighborhood. 75 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: And instead they want to help you use the light rail, 76 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 2: ride your bike, ride haile, do all the other alternative 77 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: ways of getting around. And they think that this can 78 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: be a better way to live, even in Phoenix. 79 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: And who are the people behind it? 80 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: So this was founded by Ryan Johnson and Jeff Barns. 81 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: They were roommates at the University of Arizona. They both 82 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 2: grew up in the Phoenix area. Ryan Johnson was on 83 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 2: the founding team at open Door, which is the house 84 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: flipping company that buys houses in mass and thinks that 85 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 2: they can figure out the price using data so that 86 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 2: they can make an offer just below market value and 87 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 2: sell it just above or make a margin that way. 88 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: He was working there and one of the things he 89 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: noticed while working there, as he puts it, was that 90 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: people really valued walkability in their neighborhood because they were 91 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: constantly looking at the data about what people want in 92 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: a home and in a neighborhood, and he saw that 93 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: people didn't outright say I want walkability. They didn't use 94 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 2: those terms, but they said I want a cute neighborhood. 95 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 3: And what cute meant was where. 96 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 2: I could walk to a coffee shop, where I could 97 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 2: walk to a grocer, where I could walk to a park. 98 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: And so what they were really describing was walkability, and 99 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: that this was something that when you looked at how 100 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: often people said they wanted it and how often it 101 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 2: was available, there was a huge mismatch. And so they 102 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 2: decided that they were going to try to build from 103 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 2: scratch walkable neighborhoods, and they were going to start with Tempe. 104 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: They had to go to the city of Tempe and 105 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: convince them to let them build without parking because in Tempe, 106 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: as in many US cities, there are parking minimums that 107 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 2: demand if you're going to be putting bedrooms in, you 108 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: need to put parking spaces so that people aren't parking 109 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: on the nearby streets. 110 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: It's interesting because we started out talking about how cars 111 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: are big drivers of climate change, which we now, but 112 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: it seems like The idea behind this development wasn't kind 113 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: of save the planet so much as it was giving 114 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: people the lifestyle they wanted, which just happens to coincide 115 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: with reducing emissions. 116 00:05:59,279 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: The way they. 117 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 2: Talk about it is it is mission driven. When they 118 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: were selling it to the city, they did say this 119 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 2: is a way to help people reduce their carbon emissions, 120 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 2: but they don't want this to be just for people 121 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: who have a kind of missionary zeal or who are 122 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 2: really interested in cutting out the carbon emissions in their lives. 123 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 2: They think this can be something that is preferable, that 124 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: this is a better way to live, that you save 125 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: on all the expenses of an automobile and enjoy all 126 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 2: the things that come with being a pedestrian and using 127 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 2: public transit, and that you get a bunch of things 128 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 2: in the housing itself the way that they've designed it 129 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: that you would not be able to get if you're 130 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: dedicating all the space to parking garages. 131 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: And who are the people who want to move in? 132 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: How many are there so far? 133 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 2: When I was out there in late May, they had 134 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: sixteen units open, so this is sort of their soft opening. 135 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 3: They're going to have about one hundred more coming by 136 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 3: the end of. 137 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 2: This year, and so it was really the early movers 138 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: that were there. I spoke to a couple who'd already 139 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,559 Speaker 2: moved in, a guy who's moving in in the fall. 140 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: The founder, Ryan Johnson, co founder, is also one of 141 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: the people living there. They're all in a single building 142 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: that's open, that's going to have a grocery store just 143 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: beneath it. So some of the buildings are excuse some 144 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: are pure residential. 145 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 3: One of them was. 146 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: A woman, Vanessa Fox, who was living in Phoenix and 147 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: wanted to maybe move to San Francisco or New York 148 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: City because she wanted to live without a car. 149 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 3: She didn't like. 150 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: Driving, and the pandemic came. She started working full time 151 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: remote and she heard about this development and she said, Oh, 152 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: I can live that lifestyle that I'm looking for without 153 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: leaving Phoenix, and so she's moved in there. Another woman 154 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 2: came all the way from Pennsylvania, Sarah Joy. She heard 155 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: about the concept at an event, an online event where 156 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: talking about social entrepreneurship. Somebody from cul Deesac was on it, 157 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: and she was just sold on this idea because she 158 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: had lived elsewhere Sweden, Korea, Moldova with the Peace Corps 159 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: and lived without a car, and she really liked that. 160 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: She liked the serendipity of it, she liked the lifestyle, 161 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: and so she thought, oh, I can get that back. 162 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: And she's another person working remotely full time. So she said, 163 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: why not, I'll go out there. The weather's nice, and 164 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 2: then you know, turned out she got there at a 165 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: time when the weather was not so nice. But she 166 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: is so far happy with what she's found. Broadly speaking, 167 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: it's mostly sort of pre and post family that is 168 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 2: probably going to be you know, sort of school age 169 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: kids would be tough or even toddlers necessarily in this 170 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: kind of arrangement, especially in Phoenix, So there aren't a 171 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 2: ton of three bedrooms floor plans in their setup. And 172 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: it's working professionals who maybe have yet to start a family. 173 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: And then maybe people like this retiree Bob Schiffeur that 174 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 2: I spoke with, who is empty nest and looking for 175 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: a place to spend the sunset. 176 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: And are they looking to create like a very diverse community. 177 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 3: Tempe is really interesting. 178 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 2: Tempe has the university there's on a state university as 179 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 2: sort of its core driver of its economy in downtown Tempe, 180 00:08:58,280 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: and this is not too far from that. It's on 181 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: the skirts, so I suspect you will get grad students 182 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 2: and maybe even professors. They I think want all comers. 183 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 2: You know, they have to of course take all applicants, 184 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: it's part of fair housing. But they are looking for 185 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: a diversity people, and I think there's no reason to 186 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: think they won't be able to do that. Right around 187 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: there are neighborhoods that are pretty well established, old neighborhoods 188 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 2: with a real mix of Latino and white populations. And 189 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 2: then the immedia environment has kind of been run down 190 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 2: and was starting to enter blight, which is partly why 191 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: Tempe was willing to try this experimental thing on that site. 192 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: So can you describe what this community looks like, because 193 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: it really does make a difference when you don't have 194 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: to have cars and parking and driveways, all these sorts 195 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: of things in the way they were able to put 196 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: it together and arrange the buildings. 197 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 2: There was a plan before cul Deesat got there to 198 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 2: do a very traditional three towers with parking garages attached 199 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: them on this same lot. That's partly how they were 200 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 2: able to get this project going, as somebody had already 201 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: identified this lot for development and even gotten approved for development, 202 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 2: and they took the land from them because they decided 203 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 2: they didn't want to do that after all, and so 204 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 2: they took that plan and switched it out and made 205 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 2: their own. 206 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: And when you. 207 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: Take away the parking garages, you're basically able to get 208 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: in the same number of bedrooms. You know, they're thinking 209 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 2: maybe a thousand people will live there when this is 210 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 2: all done, but instead of space for parking, you have 211 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,959 Speaker 2: a lot more green space. And they have set these 212 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 2: up as three story walk ups that are not necessarily 213 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: arranged totally symmetrically. They have these odd angles that create 214 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 2: these nooks and crannies that help provide shade. 215 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 3: And every pod. 216 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 2: Of sort of eight six, seven, eight nine buildings is 217 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: around an interior courtyard that will be shared among residents 218 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: and that those will be sort of gated access, and 219 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: then there are outside of each pod there are public 220 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 2: walkways where there will be coffee shop, bike shop, there's 221 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: a restaurant and public events. So that's sort of a 222 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 2: mix of public and private. And they've done it with 223 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: the heat in mind. So the buildings are white stucco 224 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: and they don't use any asphalt. There is a small 225 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: parking lot for visitors, people who come to the retail, 226 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: people who are visiting residents. 227 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 3: That's brick, not asphalt. 228 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: They're doing everything they can to sort of reduce the 229 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 2: exposure to heat, and these narrow passageways that they creator 230 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 2: meant to tunnel breezes. The master planner on the site 231 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 2: calls the style that they used Mikinos Desert Modern, So 232 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: it's inspired by kind of Mediterranean Old World and it 233 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: does look that way, you know, it does look like 234 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 2: maybe you've stepped into a version of Greece or Morocco 235 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: in the middle of Phoenix. 236 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: So what does it cost to rent there? Is it 237 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: more expensive to live there than it is in other 238 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: places in the area. 239 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: They are roughly in line with the market at the moment. 240 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 2: You know, a one bedroom is around fourteen hundred. Last 241 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 2: I checked up to about three thousand a month for 242 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: a three bedroom. And in poking around, I walked over 243 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: to a just a regular old apartment complex, like a 244 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,119 Speaker 2: couple doors down on Apache Boulevard where this isn't Tempe, 245 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: and there's a building there where a one bedroom is 246 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 2: about thirteen hundred, and you know, it's just a regular 247 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 2: old apartment building, so they are not charging a huge 248 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: amount more than you can find in that area where 249 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 2: there's also just plenty of building going on at the moment. 250 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 2: And in addition to your living space, with your rent, 251 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 2: you get this basket of transportation benefits, including a free 252 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 2: pass to the Valley Metro that bus and light rail system, 253 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 2: discounts on lift, ride hailing, on bird scooters, and moving services, 254 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 2: and they have an evy fleet on site that you 255 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: can rent by the hour or the day. You know 256 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: that rent also is probably you should know, includes more 257 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 2: than just the space to. 258 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: Live after the break. Why is it so hard to 259 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: get rid of parking spaces? Hiray? You mentioned earlier that 260 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: cities are so built around car culture that it was 261 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: kind of novel just the concept of building an entire 262 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: apartment community that didn't focus around cars. 263 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 2: In tempi as in many cities, there are these things 264 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,359 Speaker 2: called parking minimums, and these are a really big bugaboo 265 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 2: among urbanists now because they think they perpetuate car dominance 266 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: in cities. By forcing developers to include parking, you make 267 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 2: it so that you perpetuate the fact that cars will 268 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 2: be the mode of transit for everybody, and don't allow 269 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 2: for more sustainable modes of development to get built. So 270 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 2: they had to go to the city and say, we 271 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: would like you to zero out the parking minimums for 272 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 2: this development, and we believe that we can make it 273 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 2: work through the way that we design it, through its location, 274 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: and through the other transit benefits that we're going to 275 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: offer residents there. And the city agreed to it. It 276 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: was a little bit contentious, but ultimately, I think because 277 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 2: they were in a site where there wasn't much development happening, 278 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: they said, let's give this a shot. 279 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 1: And you right that the people behind this project, they 280 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: went before the Development Commission and they really had to 281 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: overcome a lot of skepticism and kind of promise them 282 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: that this was going to work. 283 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was skepticism, and the main question was this 284 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 2: all sounds great, but what if it doesn't lease. You know, 285 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 2: what are you going to do if you can't find 286 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 2: enough people who want to live this way or who 287 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: will pay market rate for these apartments. And their answer 288 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: was essentially, look, we're going to do this in phases, 289 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: and so if we figure out after phase one or 290 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: phase two that it's just not working, then we can 291 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: switch it up. We'll come back to you and we 292 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 2: will say, hey, you know, theoretically they could throw a 293 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: parking crush in the last few acres if they need to, 294 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 2: or make a different plan, and that was enough to 295 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: get over those concerns. And you know that is still 296 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 2: open question. They are still in the early parts of this. 297 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: A lot of the development remains a dirt lot. If 298 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 2: it doesn't work, then you could see this become five 299 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: ten years from now just another apartment complex and tempe. 300 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: But when it got that approval, yeah, a lot of 301 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: attention right away, especially among urban planners and academics, that 302 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: this was a really big deal. 303 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, because they became the poster child for this movement 304 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: to abolish parking minimums, which is growing, and there are 305 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 2: cities that have just said, we're not going to make 306 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 2: this a must. We're going to take every development as 307 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: a one off and decide what's rational and look at 308 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: how they plan to deal with transportation needs. 309 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 3: And you have seen even in the Phoenix. 310 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 2: Area what they call transit oriented development where it's like 311 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 2: we're near the light rail, will go lower than the 312 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: established amount of parking that you typically need for this 313 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 2: many bedrooms, and sometimes those work and sometimes they really don't. 314 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: Sometimes people put in a restaurant and they say, we're 315 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: near the light rail, we don't need our own parking lot. 316 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: People are going to come to us on public transit. 317 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: And then you find out three months later when the 318 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: restaurant opens that the people are parking all over the 319 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: surrounding neighborhoods, and the neighbors are really upset, and you 320 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: wind up going and buying and putting in a surface lot. 321 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: So parking is just this really contentious part of all 322 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: development right now. But this got a lot of attention 323 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 2: because it was the first time that TEMP said we'll 324 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: go to zero. We're not going to have a parking 325 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 2: minimum for this development. And I think that kind of 326 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 2: absolutist approach and the fact that they were first made 327 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: them really notable. 328 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: The other thing, too, is Arizona is just unbearably hot. 329 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: Of course, we're going through a whole big heat wave everywhere, 330 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: but man, are they bearing the brunt of it? Is 331 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: that an advertisement for this place or is it something 332 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: that will make people think twice about not being able 333 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: to get into a cool car. 334 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 2: I think that it will cut both ways. I mean, 335 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 2: broadly speaking, you see the beginnings of real estate investors 336 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 2: looking at Phoenix and going, We'll wait a second, we're 337 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: really going to be able to supply water. There is 338 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 2: this really a livable place long term? In the short term, 339 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: like a lot of cities, it's got more people looking 340 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 2: for housing than it has houses, and so there's demand. 341 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 2: And I think, you know, whether it's better or worse 342 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 2: to live this way is what they're trying to prove 343 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: right now. I think their idea is that, look, you 344 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 2: can do a thousand and if this one works, maybe 345 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 2: ten thousand at a time. Of people like this, and 346 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 2: it's sort of an incremental change, and this is also 347 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 2: a way to create a different kind of housing that 348 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 2: we think is highly desirable. That people want to live 349 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 2: this walkable lifestyle and they just need someone to help 350 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: them do it. 351 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: You mentioned that other cities started really looking at this. 352 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: What other places are considering similar sorts of things. 353 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: Minneapolis and Arbor have done away with their blanket minimums, 354 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 2: and there are a lot of other cities that. You know, 355 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 2: it really depends what was the rule in the first 356 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: place and how much do you want to tweak it. 357 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: But if you look in Portland and cities all over 358 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 2: the US, you are seeing parking minimums be reconsidered in 359 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 2: one way or another. 360 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier that people who live there aren't allowed 361 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: to park, you know, anywhere in the area, so it's 362 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: not like you can't kind of like hide a car. 363 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: But they actually have to do more than that to 364 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: meet the requirements. Is that right? 365 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 2: They have to promise that they will disclose any car 366 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 2: that they own or control or purchase while they're there, 367 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 2: because they want to know what the license plate and 368 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 2: the make of that car so that they can keep 369 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,959 Speaker 2: track of anybody who is parking on the neighboring streets 370 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: and kind of trying to break the rules. They promise 371 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 2: to help monitor the area around the site for that. 372 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 2: I think mostly it will be self policing because they 373 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 2: are selling this so much to people who want to 374 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 2: try this car free lifestyle that it would be weird 375 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: to move there if you were intending to park. Whether 376 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 2: there's slippage over time would be interesting. It was one 377 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 2: of the people I spoke with, Bob schaff for the 378 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 2: retiree who's going to be moving in in October. He 379 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 2: has a truck with a camper on the back, and 380 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: he told me, I'm going to keep it for a 381 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 2: lot little while. I'm not telling them where I'm going 382 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 2: to park it. You know it's going to be far away, 383 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 2: but I just want to make sure this works. Ultimately, 384 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 2: he decided he is going to sell it when he 385 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 2: moves in, but for a while he was not totally sure, 386 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 2: and he was thinking, I'm going to just have this 387 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 2: car park somewhere in the meantime. So it's not that 388 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: you can't own a car, it's that you can't store 389 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 2: it really anywhere near the site. 390 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 3: It would be really inconvenient to do that. 391 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: When we come back. Tempe's the first to do this, 392 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: but the big question is will other cities follow. I 393 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: wrote you said earlier that there's a handful of people 394 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: who've been able to move in kind of the earliest adopters, 395 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: but a lot of the plays really is yet to 396 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: be built. 397 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 398 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 2: I mean, their original schedule was to start moving people 399 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, basically, and the pandemic and the 400 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: supply Chaine disruptions and everything that came with that have 401 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 2: set them back. So they've just had their first move ins. 402 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 2: They want to do their grand opening, as they call it, 403 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: this fall, and they're going to have one hundred more 404 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: units coming this year, and then over the next couple 405 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: of years a couple hundred more in the final fruition. 406 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: You know, this is supposed to be about seven hundred units, 407 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 2: and that's years away. 408 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 3: You know. 409 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 2: They broke ground in November of twenty nineteen. So much 410 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: has happened since then, as we all know. But the 411 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 2: climate for housing development in the market where they are 412 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: has gotten a lot tougher. It's tougher to borrow for building. 413 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: There's a glut of new constructions, so the value of 414 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 2: new apartments has come down, and the interest rates at 415 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 2: which you would have to borrow have gone up. So 416 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 2: they facing a lot of challenges and bringing this to 417 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 2: completion and to be what they originally envisioned. 418 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: You said earlier that this has become the kind of 419 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: poster child for this car free way of living. Are 420 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: there other developments like this anywhere in the country? Is 421 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: this the only one? 422 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 2: There are other places that do infill projects and that 423 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 2: sort of specialize in walkability. 424 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: What is infil so. 425 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: Infil is when instead of building on a lot that 426 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 2: wasn't housing before, you know, whether that was just an 427 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 2: open lot or it was being used for something else 428 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: on the outskirts of a city. That's typically how you 429 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 2: get suburban sprawl, and how places like Phoenix have developed 430 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 2: for decades is primarily you keep going outward and then 431 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 2: you find that a lot of what you're leaving behind 432 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 2: in the center of the cities sort of can fall 433 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: into disrepair, or that those markets can become depressed, that 434 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 2: housing stock gets old, and so infill is when you 435 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: reverse that and you go back and you say we're 436 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 2: going to build close to the center of the city, 437 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 2: and we're going to rebuild there, and we're going to 438 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: find pockets of space there to do projects where we 439 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 2: create housing, and that is something that you're seeing in 440 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 2: Phoenix and elsewhere more of that, and those in projects 441 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 2: have to think about parking really deliberately. It's not just 442 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 2: here's your driveway next to your detached house or here's 443 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 2: the garage. They're space limited or they're near transit. It 444 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: cost them twenty thousand dollars a spot roughly to put 445 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: up a parking garage. So if they can save on that, 446 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 2: they would love to. But then they also have to 447 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: find people who want to move in. So in terms 448 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: of you know, marketing themselves, as car free, as building 449 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 2: car free neighborhoods from scratch, which is how Cold Sac 450 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 2: puts it. I haven't seen that exact approach elsewhere, but 451 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 2: there are certainly lots of other developers who are saying, 452 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 2: we're building walkable developments, we're doing infill, we're focusing on 453 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: transit oriented development. You're seeing it in Phoenix. You're seeing it, 454 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: really and any city that has kind of started to 455 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 2: reach the limits of going out, you're seeing it even 456 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 2: in cold weather cities, you know, Milwaukee and elsewhere that 457 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 2: people want what New Yorkers have in many cases are 458 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 2: people in San Francias in some cases have, which is 459 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: a life that doesn't depend on a car. 460 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: And the difference there though, of course, in cities is 461 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: you walking on the street there's a lot of restaurants 462 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: and businesses and all kinds of things going on, Whereas 463 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: this place, you know, there's a restaurant, right, and there's 464 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: a market, a gim a coffee house. Is that enough 465 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: to sustain that kind of community where you don't want 466 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 1: to get in the car and go all the way 467 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: into Phoenix for more variety. 468 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is going to be the real 469 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 2: trick so they have tried to put on site everything 470 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 2: that they think residents will need so they don't have 471 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: to leave as often. You not only have to have 472 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 2: the people who live there frequenting those places, but for 473 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 2: those businesses to survive, it's not enough for the residents 474 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: to be the only customers. They need people coming from 475 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 2: all around the neighborhood. And where they are do they 476 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 2: have the density of sort of pedestrianism. Is the light 477 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 2: rail enough? Will enough people come to make that a go? 478 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 2: And the more projects like it that you have around, 479 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 2: the more density you have, the easier it is to do. 480 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 2: But they are sort of pioneers. The neighborhood that they're in. 481 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: To the south is a ups shipping center. To one 482 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 2: side is an old hotel being used as a homeless 483 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 2: shelter by the city. To the other side is a 484 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 2: tire shop. So it's not like you can just stroll 485 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 2: outside and be in the kind of West Village walkable 486 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: neighborhood that people might imagine. So they are definitely trying 487 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 2: to make a go of it in a place where 488 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: it's not all there yet. That said, hop on the 489 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: light rail and you're in, you know, the downtown Tempee area, 490 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 2: which is kind of that walkable neighborhood full of bars 491 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,719 Speaker 2: and restaurants in less than ten minutes. 492 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 3: You know, if you catch it right. 493 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: Or you're from Arizona, you spent time there walking around, 494 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: taking a look at the places themselves and the community. 495 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: Is it nice? Would you want to live there? 496 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 2: I think if I were at that phase of life. 497 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 2: I have two kids now, I can't quite imagine making 498 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 2: this work with an eight year od than an eleven 499 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 2: year old, but in that phase of life, right, if 500 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 2: I'm a grad student and I live in the area, 501 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 2: this is something I would definitely consider. There's a lot 502 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 2: of ways in which I could see this being really attractive. 503 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 2: But certainly it's less convenient than anytime I want to 504 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: go anywhere, I step outside, I get in my own car, 505 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 2: and I go there without having to make any other 506 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 2: planning or thought to it. And that is the default 507 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: mode in Phoenix, and that is what they're competing against. 508 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: Hira, Thanks so much for coming on the show, Thanks 509 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: for having me, Thanks for listening to us here at 510 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: the Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. 511 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio, app, Apple 512 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear 513 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: from you. Email us questions or comments to Big Take 514 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of The Big 515 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: Take is Vicky Ergalina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. 516 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: Frederica Romanello is our producer. Our associate producer is Ze Obsidiki. 517 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: Raphael mcili is our engineer. Our original music was composed 518 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: by Leo Sidron. I'm West Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow 519 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: with another Big Take