1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Doctor wolf in law. You're an academic somewhat, but you're 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: an academic that teaches and has studied and learned and 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: taught on real world things. So I think there's a disconnect. Right. 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: There's the saying, which I'm sure academics don't like, or 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: professors that those who can do those who can't teach. 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: And what I see a lot of is people in 7 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: academia in politics seem to have like no real world grounding. 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: They have a lot of theory, but like you've never 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: balanced a checkbook, you've never ran a business, Like what 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: do you know? 11 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: And you can tell by. 12 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: The policies that they do, right, I mean, have you 13 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: seen that? Would you agree with with that for a 14 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of cases? 15 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 3: One hundred percent? 16 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: Ok? 17 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent. 18 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 4: I And that's the reason why I'm not in academia anymore. 19 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 4: At some point I made I was getting my PhD. 20 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 4: And I was reading, writing, thinking and teaching, and I 21 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 4: was asking myself the question like, hmm, do we want 22 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 4: to do the same thing ten years from now? And 23 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 4: the answer was no, because realistically, as somebody with my 24 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 4: ideas cl'sicalliberal libertarian ideas, what would realistically happen to me. 25 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 4: Even if I'm very good, like I would end up 26 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 4: in the middle of nowhere, someone in Utah are teaching 27 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 4: like one hundred kids that don't give it. Yeah right, yeah, 28 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 4: And so that that is not really something that was 29 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 4: aspiring to do. And now I'm a CEO of a 30 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 4: nonprofit where we have impact in over one hundred three countries, 31 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 4: ninety staff members we're paying actually twenty of them are 32 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 4: being paid in bitcoin regularly. And so I have all 33 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 4: kinds of different business challenges in the organizing events all 34 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 4: across the world. And that's that's so much more interesting 35 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 4: and I have so much more impact than compared to 36 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 4: it if I were staying in academia. 37 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you you're an entrepreneur, you're a business owner. 38 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a nonprofit, but it's a business, yes, 39 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: And so now you have to deal with rural challenges 40 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: as you're talking about when you made the jump from 41 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: academia into business, was it sort of like all these 42 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: things you had kind of studied and learned, and now 43 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: of a sudden you're having to deal with it, and 44 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: it it kind of gave you like a new revelation 45 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: and you kind of realized. 46 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 2: It was different. 47 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: Like if if I watch UFC on TV all the time, 48 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna go be a fighter, and 49 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: then I jump in the ring, like I'm not prepared 50 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: to be in the ring just because I watched a 51 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: bunch of UFC something like that. 52 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 3: I think there's definitely truth to that. 53 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 4: Academia teaches you a few things, but I think for 54 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 4: most people it's not necessary to go into that. I've 55 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 4: learned to grind as you're writing a PhD. So you 56 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 4: have to write like every day and probably like over 57 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 4: seventy percent of everything that you're writing is going to 58 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 4: be thrown out. So dealing with frustrations, dealing with motivating 59 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 4: yourself every single day, that sort of thing is being taught, 60 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 4: but it comes at a high cost, not only financially, 61 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 4: but also the opportunity costs. So I would say most 62 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 4: of the skills that I'm using right now in business 63 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 4: is why I'm in the business that I'm in right now, 64 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 4: because I'm a product of the organization. So Students for 65 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 4: Liberty is empowering volunteers to spread the ideas of liberty 66 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 4: all across the world while focusing on like giving them 67 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 4: aunts of leadership skills. So when I got out of 68 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 4: that program as a young twenty year old, I've raised 69 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 4: fifty thousand years as a young person. I've started a 70 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 4: whole training program. I probably interviewed like one hundred to 71 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty people, and those gave me like 72 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 4: real world skills that I'm employing right now. But that's 73 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 4: not the average experience that you have. Like university was 74 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 4: more to vehicle for my volunteer experience than the vehicle 75 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 4: for the ideas that made. 76 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 3: Me a more effective leader. Does that make sense? 77 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, So now you've started this student for liberty. This 78 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: is your works life or your life's work. This is 79 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: like your passion. So I was asked this question yesterday 80 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: on a panel I was speaking at it that I 81 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: thank God for bitcoin. What is freedom? Then maybe I'll 82 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: ask you what is liberty? And our freedom and liberty 83 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: the same. 84 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's an interesting debate right there. I would say, 85 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 4: just to define libertine freedom and I often use them interchangeably, 86 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 4: since it's like liberty in the name, I'm using that more. 87 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 4: I would say it's I would you can define it 88 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 4: like negatively or positively. There's like negative freedom and there's 89 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 4: positive freedom, which I don't think is like liberty at all. 90 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 4: Negative freedom means it's like you are just there's the 91 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 4: absence of violence against you, you are protected, your property 92 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 4: is protected. So that's like negative lity. 93 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: So freedom from. 94 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 4: Exactly freedom from something instead of freedom for something. Because 95 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 4: most of the progressive and even I would say, like 96 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 4: conservatives would say like, oh no, no, no, you should 97 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 4: have like you can only live like a free life if. 98 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 3: You have like health care and education and all of 99 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 3: these things, and that only enables you to become like 100 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 3: a fully. 101 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: So you can't be free. 102 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: So they would argue Bernie Sanders would probably argue that 103 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: if you're broke, you can't be free because now you 104 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: can't go do things that you want. 105 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 4: Correct, And like his ideology goes way deeper. That has 106 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 4: really permeated the whole society because they're thinking socialist. That 107 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 4: is generally that people are being exploited by the capitalist 108 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 4: system because whoever the entrepreneur is on top of it. 109 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 4: So like your workers right now that are helping us 110 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 4: setting up this beautiful conversation, right, they're being exploited because 111 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 4: you're on top and you are abusing them there's like 112 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 4: surplus value that they're producing, but you're taking money out 113 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 4: of them. And that comes from the ideas back back 114 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 4: then with factories and that you have like one person 115 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 4: in charge, and so they think it's innately unfair. Therefore 116 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 4: you have to redistribute. And there's so many other ideas 117 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 4: like vocism that fits within that right now that you 118 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 4: say like. 119 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 3: Okay, maybe we need markets. 120 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 4: However we need to really tame them with like the 121 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 4: wide ideology, and we have to have like mix of 122 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 4: people in there, and it cannot be just like yeah, whomever. 123 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 2: There's so much to unpack right there. 124 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: You know, I wrote this book last year, the Uncommunist Manifesto. 125 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: We kind of broke that down. So there's a lot 126 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 2: to unpack there. 127 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: But going back to the freedom thing, So freedom from yep, 128 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: so freedom from having my private property taken, freedom of speech, 129 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: freedom from being censored of my speech right, so be 130 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: freedom So almost like freedom is like is not a 131 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: it's like an ad adjective or whatever, so it has 132 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: to be freedom from or so, but what about freedom 133 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: and liberty? 134 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 4: The distinction between freedom and liberty, it's an interesting just 135 00:05:58,480 --> 00:05:59,239 Speaker 4: interesting question. 136 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 2: Or just what is liberty? 137 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 5: Then? 138 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I would just say, like a state where you 139 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 4: have these constraints lifted from you, and it's always like gradual, right, 140 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 4: we are not never perfectly free, and it's always like 141 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 4: a gradual thing because there's always constraints on us, and 142 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 4: some constraints are good and someone's very it makes sense, 143 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 4: like I mean, some people would say, like it's again 144 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 4: like the freedom towards something like you should have at 145 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 4: least like a like a UBI, like a universal basic income, 146 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 4: because then it's the only way that you can flourish. 147 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 4: No like you need to you need to make like 148 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 4: a living, You need to produce value in the world 149 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 4: for others, and that's what the free market system allows 150 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 4: you to do through and it's just like a beautiful thing. 151 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 4: You have voluntary exchange. You are like let's say we 152 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 4: do a trade. I give you my coffee, you give 153 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 4: me like three dollars. I value your three dollars more, 154 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 4: you value the coffee more. We're doing that exchange and 155 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 4: we both say thank you at the end of the day, 156 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 4: and if we don't, then no deal exactly exactly. So 157 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 4: that's that that is really voluntary and it's mutually beneficial 158 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 4: and most economists especially like leftist. 159 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 3: Really don't get that anymore. And that's that's sweety. It's 160 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 3: quite something. 161 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. 162 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: So we were talking about the Austrian school of economics, 163 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: which I want to get into with you obviously, Well 164 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: you're you're you're master's. 165 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: In it or yeah, I go to Mass's and it, 166 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 2: so you know way more than I do. 167 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: I kind of think of ludlove on Misis as kind 168 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: of the father I think maybe you might say Manger, yeah, 169 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: Minger whatever. 170 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: Anyway, and then f. A. 171 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: Hyek Is is kind of a big figure for me 172 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: in that. And and he wrote several good books. The 173 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: Road to served him, I think as a must read 174 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: for everybody. But he I believe it was. His last 175 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: book was the Constitution of. 176 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 6: Liberty Constitution of Society, and he defined it as liberty 177 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 6: being free of freedom, freedom free of coercion. 178 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: Mm hm, so coercion being I'm given the illusion of choice, 179 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: take the job or lose your job. It's my choice, 180 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: but either choice leads me to your ends versus I 181 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: want freedom of coersion, that I can make a choice 182 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: that leaves me to my own ends. That's kind of 183 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: how I think about it. 184 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 4: That's a very good way of thinking about it, and 185 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 4: there's a lot of richness, just like within the Austin 186 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 4: tradition generally, and like many of the things that also 187 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 4: like witcoiners believe come from that. For instance, like the 188 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 4: power of spontaneous order. People always use it and are joking. 189 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 4: You can see this that this conference is say're like, oh, 190 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 4: that's like a line forming in front of the bufet 191 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 4: and people are a spontaneous order. No, it's like much deeper. 192 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 4: It is spontaneously governing institutions that nobody willed by decree, 193 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 4: but came about by human action, not by human. 194 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 3: Design, human action, not by human design. 195 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 4: And that is such a rich insight that Hayek helped proliferate. 196 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 4: And that means, for instance, not only money, but also 197 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 4: law and language. Nobody invented the English language, nobody invented 198 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 4: common law. That just came about through hundreds and hundreds 199 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 4: and sometimes thousands of years of people interacting with one another. 200 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 4: And once you understand that, which is like a deeply 201 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 4: Austrian insight or classical liberal generally, once you understand that, 202 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 4: that gives you some sort of humility as to what 203 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 4: you can command in society and what politicians can accomplish. However, 204 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 4: that sort of humility. 205 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: I find strangely absence from most ideologies. 206 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: That's one of. 207 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 6: Elect the lack of humility Hubris Ubis, I would say, yes, absolutely, 208 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 6: I would say it's classical liberals. 209 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 4: And I like that term better than libertarians because that 210 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 4: term has so many negative connotations to it, and classical 211 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 4: liberalism has like a little bit more of the weight 212 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 4: of the history, and like Locke and Adam Smith and 213 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 4: even like the Salamanca School in Spain, and like many 214 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 4: other thinkers that contributed to it, versus libertarianism, which is 215 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 4: a very new word which only originated in the nineteen 216 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 4: sixty s in the United States, and many great thinkers 217 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 4: behind it, like Rothbart And I'm a fan of thinkers 218 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 4: like that, But like I'm using that term because it 219 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 4: conveys like a little bit more of the depth and 220 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 4: the sophistication of the ideas that gives you really an epistemic, 221 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 4: like how do you look at the world aumidity, Like 222 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 4: you don't know how we all should live here in 223 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 4: this womb, and like what are the best choices for 224 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 4: a life? Often we don't know from one day to another, 225 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 4: what's the best choice for our life and then to 226 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 4: say like, hey, we have like somebody in charge right 227 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 4: now who's like ancient, who can make decisions for like 228 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 4: thirty million people exactly. That's mind boggling. I mean, there's 229 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 4: many reasons for that, but it's really astonishing if you 230 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 4: think about it. 231 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you had this Austrian school of economics and 232 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: this is a big question, but let's let's see if 233 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: we can if we can go surface on that, just 234 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 1: to kind of frame up this conversation. So for a 235 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: lot of people probably have never heard of Austrian economics 236 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: we were talking about before we're recording that. I have 237 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: many people that I know that have gotten degrees some 238 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: level of degrees in economics from American universities and have 239 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: never even heard of Austrian economics. So you kind of 240 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: said it in a second ago, Austrian economics kind of 241 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: worked on human action. So kind of frame up maybe 242 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: as best as you can in a simple frame of 243 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: what Austrian economics is good. 244 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 4: Let's put a contrast on like mainstream economics right now. 245 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 4: Their methodology how they try to find truth is by 246 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 4: creating models, often very very niche models, and then those 247 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 4: models make predictions and if those predictions adhere to the 248 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 4: data that they see in the world, then that is 249 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 4: a good theory. It's completely void of like a deeper 250 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:29,239 Speaker 4: like theoretical framework whereby the Austrians looked at human behavior 251 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 4: and just deduced a network of like really straightforward assumptions 252 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 4: about that human behavior and use that as a framework 253 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 4: to analyze complex interactions within society. It doesn't have to 254 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 4: be just economically, it doesn't have to be just in 255 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 4: the marketplace, but just how human beings behave for one another, 256 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 4: because you can have all kinds of different forms of 257 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 4: like non monetary trade. So what does that mean so 258 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 4: human beings act? That's like one assumption at the beginning. 259 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 4: What can you all pass out of that? Meaning action 260 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 4: means has to come through time because action needs to 261 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 4: be through time, Like if it's in the past, you 262 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 4: cannot take action in future. 263 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 3: You can't. You can only do planning. 264 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 4: So you have time, and then like why would we 265 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,719 Speaker 4: take action because there's some sort of uneasiness, Like if 266 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 4: we were perfectly happy right now, like completely in bliss, 267 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 4: there would be nothing that we need to do. 268 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 3: However, like you have goals, you want to get more 269 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 3: people to listen to this. 270 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 4: You want to make more money, more sponsorships, you want 271 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 4: your wife to be happier, family, all of these goals 272 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 4: are there, and we need to work towards that. If 273 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 4: everything was perfect, we didn't need to act. Okay, that 274 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 4: means there's not like abundance, there's actually scarcity. Right, So 275 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 4: you have the principles of time, you have scarcity, you 276 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 4: have like human action, and you can go through that 277 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 4: list and it's just a really beautiful edifice of ideas 278 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 4: that you can then take and look at the world 279 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 4: and then the really cool things like the Austin business 280 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 4: cycle theory comes out of that, which is, for instance, 281 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 4: the idea, and then we can make it practical. Okay, 282 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 4: the wall of time. How do we adjudicate the value 283 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 4: of time? Because something like a coffee right now is 284 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 4: worth more to you than a coffee to more right. 285 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: And my first coffee this morning was worth more to 286 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: me than my second cup of coffee. 287 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 4: Very good, diminishing marginal returns right there, right, But like 288 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 4: in terms of time, that means, okay, if you want 289 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 4: to have a coffee right now, you are willing to 290 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 4: pay like a quote unquote premium compared to tomorrow. Meaning 291 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 4: if you lend somebody also money means that you won't 292 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 4: get more money in return, which then the interest rates 293 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 4: is allocating that. Right, So if you're the price of 294 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 4: really just time, time, present and future demand of that. 295 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 4: And so if you have more people that are affluent 296 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 4: that have produced more value, which means more goods and services, 297 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 4: more shairs, generable things, that means they can lend out 298 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,479 Speaker 4: more money. That stands for all of these goods and services, 299 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 4: and other people can use these goods and services to 300 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 4: invest in the economy. And so if you have like 301 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 4: a society imagine like one hundred people and all of 302 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 4: them are just like gamblers and drinkers and like I 303 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 4: don't know, just like don't care about anything, they would 304 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 4: not save a lot, meaning you would not have a 305 00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 4: lot of resources to invest, So the interest rate would 306 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 4: be high. The cost of that of those resources would 307 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 4: be high. Now, if you have like a prudent society 308 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 4: of people at saving, then the interestrate would be low. However, 309 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 4: now we're living in a society where the interest rates 310 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 4: is determined by people sitting at a central bank, just 311 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 4: thousands of economists that think that they can set the 312 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 4: right price of what the cost of for future savings 313 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 4: should be right, And that's mind boggling really, and that 314 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 4: has led to all kinds of differ manipulations. 315 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 3: And that's the last thing I would say here. 316 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 4: If you think about it, if you ask any kind 317 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 4: of economists, would you know how to set the price 318 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 4: of milk or the price of X to more? Or 319 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 4: would you be would there be negative consequences if you 320 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 4: set it too low or too high? 321 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 3: They would say yes. 322 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 4: But like the price that determines the value of money, 323 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 4: that impacts every other price in society, they say, sure, 324 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 4: we have to like say what that is. 325 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's countless examples of history of price fixing, which 326 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: is kind of one of the last steps that's done 327 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: as an economy is dying, and it always fails. And 328 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: so to your point, we know that empirically, I guess 329 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: you could say, however, when you set the price of money, 330 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: that's what you're doing, and they don't seem to get 331 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: that connection. I want to dig more into that, but 332 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: just for a minute, so you kind of have this. 333 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: It's driven off of human action, which seems so normal 334 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: and so rational, and we understand that humans are irrational, 335 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: and I like coffee black, but tomorrow I might want 336 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: cream in my coffee. And I don't know why, I 337 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: just do right, And so we change if we look 338 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: at the other school thought. And so today I said, 339 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: I have friends that have gone through university and got 340 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,119 Speaker 1: degrees in economics, and they have never heard about Austrian economics. 341 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: And typically it seems like most of the economic channels 342 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: that are being out to the air off of Kinsey 343 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: in economics, I don't know if they really call it 344 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: that anymore. So what is the prevailing school of economic 345 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: thought today? 346 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 2: Sum that up? And then I want to compare those two. 347 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, so the most preventing schools of thoughts, and they're 348 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 4: blending to some extent to one another, like neoclassical economics, 349 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 4: which is for instance, like where Friedman comes from from 350 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 4: that tradition, and I'm a huge fan of Freedman. I 351 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 4: just don't agree with his methodology, but he comes to 352 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 4: similar conclusions with different means. And then there's of course 353 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 4: like Kne's in economics, and this is an interesting insight 354 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 4: toout history. Like Kanes and hyek Hiak of course. 355 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 3: Being somebody that represented to the. 356 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 4: Austrian school, they were actually friend as times, and they 357 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 4: were talking quite a lot, and Haya gave interviews about 358 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 4: this and basically said, like, yeah, Kines has no knowledge 359 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 4: about economics because he just came up with like a 360 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 4: bunch of new theories. He was very creative, and he 361 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 4: was just like looking at his one teacher, he never 362 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 4: went through like history, and he didn't like know the 363 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 4: economic thinking even like sort of. 364 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: Like they've never gone down to the first principles which 365 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: allows you to then formulate your own ideas off of that, 366 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: and so he kind of grasped on maybe at a 367 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: higher level and started kind of being creatible without really 368 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: understanding the base layer of it absolutely. 369 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 4: And that was also what really upset Hyek because high 370 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 4: before the general Theory that Kines wrote, which was like 371 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 4: the book that made him like really popular and he 372 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 4: spoke everywhere and so forth, before that book, he wrote 373 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 4: like a different book. And Haiak went out and attacked 374 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 4: that book and took it apart, and then like a 375 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 4: few weeks later, Kane said, like, I'm changing, I'm changing 376 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 4: my minds. 377 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 3: That's not what I believe in anymore. 378 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 4: And so one of the highest biggest regrets was that 379 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 4: he didn't attack that book later on the next one. 380 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, the general theory. 381 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 4: Which then had like this huge impact, and he really 382 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 4: regretted that for the rest of his life that he 383 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 4: didn't do that because he thought like, oh, this guy 384 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 4: would just change his mind again. That shows you that 385 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 4: there was not like a really solid foundation there. 386 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 3: Of course, a lot. 387 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 4: Of people have derived theories from that, which is a 388 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 4: very we talked about the humility aspect. 389 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 3: It's the opposite of it. 390 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 4: It's a very engineering view of society, just like as 391 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 4: a system of cox and levers that you can just 392 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 4: like pull and twist. 393 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: So that's what I wanted to ask you about that, 394 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: that specific piece the cogs. Yes, so it almost I've 395 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: been kind of working on this theory. I did a 396 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 1: podcast with the Breed Love a couple of days ago 397 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: and we titled it or. I was talking about the 398 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: crisis and confidence and basically how we have these authority figures, doctors, economists, politicians, 399 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: but we're starting to see that there's massive gaps in 400 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: their knowledge and so we're losing confidence in them. And 401 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: I was kind of framing up how and correct me 402 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, But here's what I'm thinking. And so 403 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: technology is what changes the world because it changes the 404 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: way that we communicate, organize, work, etc. So, if we 405 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: look at, you know, the invention of the stirrup or 406 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: the invention of the gunpowder revolution, the invention of the 407 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: industrial revolution, and the industrial revolution started centralizing people. And 408 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: then you go into the early late eighteen hundreds, early 409 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, we had the invention of the automobile and 410 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: the assembly line. And so then we go into the 411 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: assembly line and then you and I. You're way smarter 412 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: than me, but we work on the assembly line together, 413 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: and we're both just. 414 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 2: A cog and a wheel. 415 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: And because we were trying to manage the masses, we 416 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: had to develop a management system to manage the mass 417 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: as cogs in the wheel, so that I don't take 418 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: into account you and your traits and your knowledge or whatever. 419 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: You're just on the assembly line next to me, and 420 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: we're doing the world cogs and wheel. And so we 421 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: created this management system to manage the masses in a 422 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: mass manufacturing process. And then we kind of created a 423 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: government system to manage that industrial mass production cogs and 424 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: a wheel. And we're not in that anymore. We're in 425 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: the information age today. And so like the form of 426 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: government we have today is no longer compatible with the 427 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: world that we live in. But my question back to 428 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: you that that's kind of the quick version of my 429 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: question back to you is do you think that maybe 430 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: had something to do with impacting or influencing Kine's view 431 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: or this kensane economics where they all think of us 432 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: as a cog in the wheel. Maybe that where we 433 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: were in society at that time, in the Industrial Revolution, etc. 434 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 4: That's very fascinating, and you laid it beautifully. I would say, initially, yes, 435 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 4: for sure one question maybe you can get put like 436 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 4: a pin in there. But like you said, that technology 437 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 4: drives society, and I think that's an interesting debate there. 438 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 3: Is it technology or. 439 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 4: Is the ideas that are around those technologically changes that 440 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 4: maybe influence that. 441 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: But to answer your question errectly. 442 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: What technology is a solution and a solution should come 443 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: to a problem. Yes, so to your point, society has 444 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: a problem and the technology supposed to solve that, but 445 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: then it does change society correctly. 446 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 4: The reason why I'm pushing slightly back against that is 447 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 4: because that is also like how I'm not accusing you 448 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 4: of anything, but like that's also like how Marx actually look. 449 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 3: At the darker professor. Please, No, I'm not a professor. 450 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 3: I'm just I'm a practitioner. I wish I could like 451 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 3: spend more time on idea. So I enjoyed this chat 452 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 3: very much. 453 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 4: But like they were thinking, like, Okay, the technological change 454 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 4: is what determines history. It was a very deterministic view. 455 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 4: So and that's exactly how you were saying that. And 456 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 4: I'm not denying that technology has a huge impact on 457 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 4: this and that it requires a lot of different changes, 458 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 4: but I think it's mostly like, for instance, the ideas, 459 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 4: because the industrial could have happened not only in the 460 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 4: Netherlands and in the UK, it could have happened in 461 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 4: many other places. They had like similar conditions. The question 462 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 4: is why. And I think that comes back to questions 463 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 4: like what kind of values the people have, like for instance, 464 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 4: like being pool and being saving, thinking about tomorrow, like 465 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 4: building homes, building cathedrals and so forth, and thinking like 466 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 4: further ahead, and then technology. 467 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: Natural human drive for ingenuity and efficiency, and like that's 468 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 1: human creativity. 469 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:25,479 Speaker 3: Correct. 470 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 4: So I think your point is one hundred percent correct. 471 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 4: I just want to embed it in like in a 472 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 4: slightly different context, but like going back to your question, 473 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 4: which is a really fascinating one. I think you're right 474 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 4: because we human beings are also not really equipped to 475 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 4: handling complexity very well, right, Like our brain is involved, 476 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 4: and like I think there's studies on that that shows 477 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 4: that we can only keep like one hundred and fifty 478 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 4: like close issue relationships at any given point in time. 479 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 4: Because that's like how typically the largest size of the 480 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 4: types were you know, and now you think about, like, okay, 481 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 4: how can you even imagine how like an iPod or 482 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 4: like an iPhone is being produced with like the millions 483 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 4: of different pieces in there, Like nobody knows how to 484 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 4: produce that, and like everybody talks about like nobody knows 485 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 4: how to produce like a simple pencil. If your audience 486 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 4: hasn't read the book, they should definitely read eyepencil. It's 487 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 4: such a beautiful explanation that nobody really knows what goes 488 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 4: into that. Do you have to think about the chainsaws, 489 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 4: about the rubber and like the chemical composition the metal, 490 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 4: you know, the lead, all that kind of stuff, and 491 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 4: that's just mind blowing and thinking about all of these 492 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 4: different steps is very hard for us. But theoretically we 493 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 4: should all go into supermarket, right and just being like 494 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 4: blown away. Why we can take like a like a 495 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 4: can of soup for like seventy cents or because of inflation, 496 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 4: probably like two dollars right now, and. 497 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 3: Take that out and like we don't die. 498 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 4: That's a freaking miracle, right, But we cannot really fathom 499 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 4: that complexity and how many millions of people have worked 500 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 4: together to make this like working. And I think that 501 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 4: is something that most people cannot handle. And therefore most 502 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 4: economists also they're just humans and therefore or like, it's 503 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 4: much easier to think, Okay, what's the problem unemployment, what's 504 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 4: the solution. We just spend a bunch of money. Money 505 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 4: in hand of people leads to people buying mo soup. 506 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 4: Therefore there will be more people that benefit from that, 507 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 4: and then un employment goes high up and then be good. 508 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 4: And every problem that you see as from that perspective, 509 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 4: a status perspective, or as an engineering perspective or government perspective, 510 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 4: you see all of these problems in society, and you 511 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 4: have all of these just problematic nails, and you have 512 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 4: like one hammer which is just like forcing people in 513 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 4: that direction. But society is way too complex to do that, 514 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 4: and that has a negative. 515 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: Consequence the complex system. And so in a complex system, 516 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: you can't just treat one symptom. You have heartburn, the 517 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: doctor gives you a heartburn medication, and then it creates 518 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: all these side effects inside your body. Right, as opposed 519 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: to think and so the same thing, right, unemployment, Okay, 520 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: what do we do, Well, let's print money. But yeah, 521 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: I just I'm often thinking about, you know, these kinds 522 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: in economic kind of viewpoints, where again like they look 523 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: at society as just cogs in a wheel or number 524 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,959 Speaker 1: of zeros and ones on a spreadsheet, as to understand, 525 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: these are humans and they're irrational, and they do things 526 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: based off of lots of different incentives. And so I 527 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,479 Speaker 1: always wonder if it just to me, it just seems 528 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: idiotic and it's interesting. 529 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 4: He knees also himself, and you can speculate about it. 530 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 4: I don't know, it's just like an interesting tidbits for history. 531 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 4: He seemed to have like a very high time preference. 532 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 4: Life time preference comes also from the Austrian school mostly 533 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 4: which basically says like, hey, if you're looking forward in 534 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 4: your life too, I don't know, safe in bitcoin and 535 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 4: save for the future because you want to have a 536 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 4: family at some point, and you're not spending as much 537 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 4: like on a like a Ferrari now and you're saving 538 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 4: for the future, or you don't go out for bers 539 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 4: right now because you want to save. That's like a 540 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 4: low time preference, like you have a preference more for 541 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 4: the future than for today, even though you need to 542 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 4: eat today. High time preference is the opposite. Canes had 543 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 4: a very high time preference life. He was like traveling 544 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 4: a lot and partying, and there's all kinds of different 545 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 4: other rumors about like high time preference behavior that he 546 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 4: might have had today living for today. Maybe that also 547 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 4: played in that because at the end of the set, 548 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 4: like set to Hiak, in the long run we all 549 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 4: did right. He doesn't care about like maybe debt going 550 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 4: higher up, or maybe inflation is going to pick up, 551 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 4: because right now the pain of the people is that 552 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 4: they're unemployed because there was a prosession or whatever, and 553 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 4: government needs to fix it now. 554 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: I think it's easy to understand why governments today want 555 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: to latch onto kins in economics and want to get 556 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: rid of any Austrian viewpoint one side bit and you 557 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: can correct me if I'm wrong, But it seems that 558 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: we've gone way further than Keens that ever wanted things 559 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: to go. He did it. You know, we should have 560 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: some easing and you know, smooth out on the cycles. 561 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: But I don't think he ever intended for things to 562 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: get where they are. 563 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 4: He said, you just safe if you have like more 564 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 4: income and like inflation is low, you should actually be 565 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 4: saving what government doesn't. 566 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 2: Do that, and so he wanted to kind of. 567 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: Bring government easying up and down with the time, save 568 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: in the good times, you know, ease and the bad times, 569 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: et cetera. 570 00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 2: And so yeah, we've gone way past that. 571 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: But I think it's easy to understand why the governments 572 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: want to adopt that mentality or that ideology because they 573 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: want to print and they want to continue to give 574 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: more free stuff so they can continue to stay in power, 575 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: and so they don't want to hear, oh we have 576 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: to live on a budget austerity. We don't want to 577 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: live off of our savings. So that seems to be 578 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: probably the main viewpoint as to why they've adopted this, 579 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: pushed it and kind of hidden Austrians, would you agree 580 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: with that? 581 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 4: I think that's part of that absolutely. Why else would 582 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 4: Another reason was physics envy, so Austin economics. Of course 583 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 4: it does statistic analysis, it looks at historical examples. However 584 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 4: it doesn't say that we can predict the future. Austrians 585 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 4: are again as SPECIs we said before, they're humble about 586 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 4: what they can do in society, yeah, right, and what 587 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 4: can be accomplished. So they don't say like, hey, we 588 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 4: can come up with like this great theory and we 589 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 4: will fix everything in the world. 590 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 3: They never would say that. 591 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 4: Now, during the nineteen twenties thirties, like Austin economics was mainstream. However, 592 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 4: then more and more math and physics envy came part 593 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 4: of the social sciences where they tried to really predict 594 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 4: more human behavior. And that was like one of the 595 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 4: main reasons why like neoclassical economics, even though they had 596 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 4: like ludicrous assumptions often about like what people are and 597 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 4: how they act, so for instance, have like full information 598 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 4: now exactly what the prices are, like all of these 599 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 4: things that go into like the basic models of neoclassical theories, 600 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 4: even though. 601 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 3: It's not really true. 602 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,719 Speaker 4: They could use that to build math around it and 603 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 4: then predictive models around it, and often they don't break down. 604 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 4: But it led also to the what they call the 605 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 4: balcanization of social sciences, where everybody is in their like 606 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 4: very little nook. 607 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 3: So for instance, if. 608 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 4: You talk to like a healthcare economist, right and then 609 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 4: try to talk with them about like labor theory, they 610 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 4: wouldn't be able to understand one another. And that just 611 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 4: shows you that while there might be some merit on 612 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 4: the margin on some of those things, it has gone 613 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 4: way past that. 614 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: And that's the problem because now they're all specials in 615 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: the little area, but without understanding the full complex system. 616 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: I just read a report just as I think it 617 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: was this week, and it was it was a report 618 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: and a study that was done in the medical system 619 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: and talking about how all these specialist doctors and how 620 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 1: far apart they are from understanding the other pieces in there. 621 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: So like you're a liver doctor and you're the best 622 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: liver doctor in the world, but you don't really understand 623 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: how the liver corresponds with the kidneys and whatever the 624 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: other organs, and so same in the medical establishment, we're 625 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: kind of seeing the same thing. If the if the 626 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: Austrian school doesn't try to predict based off of their models, 627 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: then they're more just observing and what's the point of that. 628 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 4: They're doing something that's called pedun predictions. So they're just 629 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 4: saying like, hey, if this generally happens, this is the effect. So, 630 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 4: for instance, if you have like one market and it's 631 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 4: like let's call it the German like, let's call it 632 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 4: the potato market, right, and then suddenly there, yeah, there's 633 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 4: a shock to the system for whatever, like there's like 634 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 4: potato bugs and whatever, and then like thirty percent of 635 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 4: the supply is gone. They will say like, hey, this 636 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 4: typically will lead to an increase in prices of potatoes 637 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 4: because they're scarcity. And they can show that logically by 638 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 4: like a link of like all of these things from 639 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 4: the very assumptions of human beings act in order to 640 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 4: resolve uneasiness. They can everything logically deduct to that statement, 641 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 4: and that is one hundred percent two. However, you can 642 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 4: imagine in a world that suddenly there is like a 643 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 4: potato innovation happening, or like another country comes in and 644 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 4: supplies like they have like very overproduction for whatever reason 645 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 4: and put it on the. 646 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 3: Market and the price maybe stays the same. 647 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, would you say that the theory is wrong that 648 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 4: typically if supply collapses, the price would go up. 649 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 3: Hell no, you wouldn't. 650 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 2: You know. 651 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 4: That's also like another difficulty if you're having your whole 652 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 4: epistemic theory only focused on prediction, that that will get 653 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 4: you into problems because, as we've said, complex situations would change. 654 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 4: There's new things coming in into the system that you 655 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 4: cannot really foresee. 656 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: But that's all like lagging information as well. Whereas Kinsians 657 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: or whatever, we're classic neo economists or whatever, they're trying 658 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: to predict, and not just predict but create the future. 659 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: M hm. So Austrians don't have that hubris of trying 660 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: to create. They're just observing, saying, hey, you had this 661 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: issue with the potato bugs, and so here's what's gonna 662 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: happen with potatoes. 663 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 2: What's the point of that? 664 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: Why? Like, I can understand, I don't agree with it, 665 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: but I can understand the Kinsey and viewpoint where like, hey, 666 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: let's let's make sure that we can organize the economy 667 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: so at best it suits everybody and the underprivileged, and 668 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: let's manage this. So I can understand why they want 669 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: to do that. But then why do people want to 670 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: I mean, what's the point of Austrian economics? 671 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 3: You hit it on the on the head, on the 672 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 3: nail on the head, because you set yourself. You know, 673 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 3: why does the elite. 674 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 4: Or the politicians not want to use this Because Australian 675 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 4: economists would be useless. Like they could say like, oh, 676 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 4: this is like probably where it goes in that direction, 677 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 4: but they could not help to solve like that specific issue. 678 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: They could warn them about all kinds of debatings. They're 679 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: good at warning. 680 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, good at warning and saying like, hey, maybe you 681 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 4: should not do anything because like we know, price system, 682 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 4: property rights, individual trade, all that kind of stuff that 683 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 4: will lead to better outcomes because you rely on the 684 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 4: power of individuals decisions. 685 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:00,719 Speaker 6: Yea. 686 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 4: However, like the people powers say like hey, I need 687 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 4: like a three way that justifies that I can spend 688 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 4: more money there, and saying like you shouldn't spend more money, 689 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 4: you should actually like get rid of the Department of Education. 690 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 4: It's not something that any kind of politician wants to hear. 691 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, making a couple of notes, I can come back 692 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 5: to some stuff here, so I can come back to 693 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 5: these questions. 694 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: So let's let's go back to the technology changing things. 695 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: And to your point, everything starts as an idea of course, right, 696 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: And so typically we have a problem, humans have a 697 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: problem that we want to solve. I want it easier 698 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: to kill an animal, so I come up with a 699 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: way to make a spear or whatever. Right, So it 700 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: starts an idea, there's a want, and then it's an idea, 701 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: and then we're creative beings. So then we create a 702 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: solution to that. But then a lot of times those 703 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: new technologies that we created then go change the world. 704 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: So back to like the gunpowder revolution, Right, you had 705 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: a stirrup and how a guy and a horse could 706 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: now control hundreds of peasants. But then a gun pow 707 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: of revolution. Now one guy with a gun could take 708 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: out one hundred nights. Yes, and so like that changes 709 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: the world. Or we had the farm and cottage industry, 710 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: but then the industrial eolution brought people into cities and factories. 711 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: A chicken or the egg argument or whatever, but it 712 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: does change things. And so now we have another what 713 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: I think is another technological revolution, decentralization. 714 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 2: We'd call it that. 715 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: Bitcoin is this decentralized network. Now we could sit here 716 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you have and I have as well, 717 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: talked about all the ways we can see bitcoin changing 718 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: things because it will change the way that we organize, communicate, 719 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: It'll change incentive structures and all those things. But it 720 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: came as a problem as there was a problem, and 721 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: so Sotoshi put chance on a brink of another bailout. 722 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: So it was kind of created as this way to 723 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: have ability to have money that's not inflated, and so 724 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: there's lots of things that can do. Going kind of 725 00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,719 Speaker 1: back to where we had originally started talking about liberty, 726 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: it said and a tweet, bitcoin is the single best 727 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: shot at achieving liberty in our lifetime. So now we've 728 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: kind of framed up economics, we've framed up liberty. We're 729 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: here at a bitcoin conference. We're recording this at the 730 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: Bitcoin conference in Miami right now, twenty twenty three. So 731 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: what does that mean? How is bitcoin the single best 732 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: shot at achieving liberty in our lifetime? 733 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 4: It goes back to like what were you were challenging 734 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 4: at the beginning, like the value for instance of like academics, 735 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 4: because academics think they understand the world, they know everything, 736 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 4: and they can like change the world, and that everybody 737 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 4: wants that, right, But I think like bitcoin is fundamentally 738 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 4: humbling in that sense right, because it is, in my opinion, 739 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 4: it's the only true way of achieving liberty in our lifetime. 740 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 3: And why do I think that even though we have. 741 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 4: All of these the it's the awesome economists, we have Freemen, 742 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 4: we have Bastiad, we have Thomas Soul, all kinds of 743 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 4: great thinkers, but there's still the majority of people out 744 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 4: there like either don't care or they think like, okay, 745 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 4: government is necessary for like a whole slew of different things. However, 746 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 4: bitcoin is circumventing all of that because this is something 747 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 4: that cannot be stubbed. People can voluntarily opt in. Nobody 748 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 4: can really disallow it. And if more and more people 749 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 4: opt into that system, they will realize and understand what 750 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 4: the problem with fiat money is. And I believe to 751 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 4: be Fiat money money, which is like by force, the 752 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 4: creed upon us that we have to use, is the 753 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 4: reason why government can grow infinitely if they wanted to. 754 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 3: I mean not infinitely. I mean there are some barriers. 755 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: Course of all their power as long as it works exactly. 756 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 4: So if you take that away, and if you give 757 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 4: people actually an alternative that's like. 758 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 3: A it's a safety boat. 759 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 4: It gives you like a new opportunity to opt out 760 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 4: of a system that otherwise would wipe you out. And 761 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 4: we notice right now because I think there's like between 762 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 4: forty three to forty nine hyper inflations that have happened. 763 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 4: I mean, for God's sake, like it happened in the 764 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 4: binary public as well, and still to this day it 765 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 4: is in the psyche of people that Germans like save 766 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 4: more because have realized that and then put it like 767 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 4: into heart occurrencies. If you think about like the prospect 768 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 4: of everything that you've worked for in your life within 769 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 4: just a few years being wiped out, as it just 770 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 4: happened with the argentinaan So it's happened right now with 771 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 4: the people in Turkey and in Venezuela of course. 772 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 2: Like that's yeah. 773 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: So when you say biitcoin is the single best shot 774 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 1: at achieving liberty in our lifetime, so then that would 775 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 1: then say that based off of your explanation of that, 776 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 1: then government may be the single greatest threat to our liberty. 777 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 3: I would say so, yes, So. 778 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: If government is the single greatest threat to our liberty, 779 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: and then bitcoin can somehow insulate us or isolate us 780 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: from the threat of liberty from the government. 781 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 4: Because government cannot grow as much as it can right 782 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,879 Speaker 4: now because of all of the money supply, and most 783 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 4: people don't even realize. And I think you're doing fantastic 784 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 4: job on your show explaining like all of these different 785 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 4: mechanisms how that works, because like how do they print 786 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 4: money because they're buying government debt, right, And how do 787 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 4: they buy government debt? They just press like a button 788 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 4: and then there's money out of thin air, and then 789 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 4: they're by government dead and so it also and then 790 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 4: who's dealing with that. 791 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 3: That's the banks, and. 792 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 4: That's what they have on their balance sheet as like 793 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 4: the most secure asset, which if you think about it, 794 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 4: if it's backed up and nothing, it cannot be secure 795 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 4: by definition. However, it is unfortunately the world that we're 796 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 4: living in. And if you take that away, then maybe 797 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 4: you still have government. However, they would have to handle 798 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 4: business in the same way as. 799 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 3: You and I. 800 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 4: They would have to save, they would have to allocate 801 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 4: like where they spent, and they couldn't just like if 802 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 4: they had to issue that they need to have somebody 803 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 4: actually paying that debt. And if nobody is giving them money, 804 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 4: then they would not be able to spend anymore. And 805 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 4: they would go bankrupt and then you would have like 806 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 4: another government potentially coming up and being better run. Right now, 807 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 4: there is no and we can talk about the banking 808 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 4: system as well, there's no checks and balances on the 809 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 4: system anymore. 810 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 3: Of course you have the constitution, there's no consequence. 811 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,839 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's really little consequence, especially in banking right now. 812 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 3: People say like, oh, yeah, that's like that's. 813 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 4: The epitome of like neoliberalism and all that kind of stuff. 814 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 3: But think about it. 815 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 4: What where as the competition, the only thing that was 816 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 4: like a checks on banks was basically that everyone that 817 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 4: had deposits over two and fifty k would probably not 818 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 4: be bailed out. So banks needed to be like prudent 819 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 4: in there, and there many. 820 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 1: Users retail people had to be prudent as well. Exactly, 821 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: I don't want to go over that limit as well. 822 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 4: Correct, Now everybody got bailed out. Yeah, and so now 823 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 4: it's too big to fail. Was in two thousand and eight. 824 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 4: Now everything is bigger, Everything is failing more, and like 825 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 4: all of the smaller banks were actually helping to be 826 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 4: the system, to have the system a little bit more 827 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,240 Speaker 4: bust are getting consolidated in bigger banks. 828 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 3: So we're just seeing the banks. 829 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: Didn't learn their lesson, nor did the depositors learn lesson. 830 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 4: I think banks are learning the lesson that they can 831 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 4: do whatever they want, make a killing out of it, 832 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 4: and they just get bailed out. 833 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,240 Speaker 1: Well, the banks did go out of business, some of them, 834 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 1: so SVB. The shareholders they did lose out and so 835 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: the bank owners themselves lost, the shareholders lost, the depositors 836 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 1: were saved. 837 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 3: Correct. 838 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, is there something in I would imagine in studying 839 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 1: human human action Astrian economics, there must be something about 840 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: that feedback mechanism of consequence. I mean, we have to 841 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: have consequence. Otherwise, how do we learn right? If I 842 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: don't if I don't burn my hand when I touch 843 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: the stove, how do I learn how to touch a 844 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: stove again? 845 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 2: Right? And so we need to have that. 846 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: There's something we talked about in the Communists in in 847 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: my book the Uncommonist Manifesto, and how we need to 848 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: reintroduce consequence. So we have a system that allows people 849 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: to move up, but it also has to allow people to. 850 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 2: Fall back down. 851 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: And so the FIAT system prevents that from happening, prevents 852 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: governments and so they continually make going back to these 853 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: models governments models are wrong every single time, and yet 854 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 1: they continue to make more wrong assumptions because there's no 855 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: consequence there, there's no feedback mechanism there. 856 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 4: Right, very true, and this is something that my wife 857 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 4: Sophie says, and when we talk about like these giky 858 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 4: ideas which we which we do from time to time, 859 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 4: she says like, yeah, right now, government is really centralized irresponsibility, 860 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 4: and what we need to go to is like decentralized responsibility, 861 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 4: which goes like so well hand in hand and with 862 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 4: bitcoin again, because it's just like it's your money, it's 863 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 4: your life's energy that you pull into that, but you 864 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 4: re sponsor for it. 865 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,919 Speaker 3: If you screw up, you will have to bear other consequences. 866 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 4: And right now, it's understandable like people want safety, right 867 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 4: and they just look for the government for those solutions 868 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 4: that don't see that they can actually produce more agency, 869 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 4: more opportunity when they empower themselves and their children. And 870 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 4: that's a scary thought, but that's by basically where we 871 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 4: are right now. 872 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, So you're you have this education platform nonprofit and 873 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: you're and you're helping educate people in these types of 874 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: ideas which sometimes could be kind of a frustrating job, 875 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: you know. I know we talk about in kind of 876 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 1: this echo chamber of the bitcoin community orange pilling people. 877 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 2: How do we orange pill people? 878 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: And I always say, well, there's no one size fits 879 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: on answer because everybody is in a different place of location. 880 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: But also, like you know when you had just said earlier, 881 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: kind of waking people up to the ideas or the 882 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: problems of fiat currency, right, they can understand maybe why 883 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 1: sound money can work. But like in order for if 884 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: you look at like a diffusion of innovation chart of 885 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: how new technologies diffuse out there, right, you have like 886 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,240 Speaker 1: the innovator, the creator, the early adopters. There's a chasm, 887 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: then the early majority, and then the late majority. And 888 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 1: that chasm is where we cross over where the early 889 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: majority doesn't have to know any of that stuff. So 890 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: the people that use an iPhone today, my kids, they 891 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: don't need to know how the face shows up on 892 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: the phone or even what the internet is. In nineteen 893 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: ninety nine, I started an internet company and I had 894 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: to set up my own server in my own office, 895 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like that was very difficult. 896 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: They don't need to know any of that today, and 897 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,280 Speaker 1: that's like crossing the chasm, and so like the masses 898 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: don't care. Most the masses are ignorant, and the masses 899 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: benefit from the work of the few, right, And so 900 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: maybe the masses never really need to know about fiat currency, 901 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: they never need to know about sound money, but they 902 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: could benefit from the fu of us, the irate minority 903 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: kind of pushing that. 904 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 2: Would you look at it? Maybe that way. 905 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 4: I do think that educational efforts and your fantastic show 906 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 4: is one of that, are important, right, But it's mostly 907 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,359 Speaker 4: people who have already started to question things and want 908 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 4: to take like ownership and want to like improve their lives. 909 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 4: I would even say, and we talked a lot about 910 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,320 Speaker 4: the academic ideas and yes I have a PhD. And 911 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 4: all that kind of stuff, I would say, I have 912 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 4: very much a bias to action. 913 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 3: I would say, like, and that's what students liberty is about. 914 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 4: Like we had last year a little bit over one thousand, 915 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,359 Speaker 4: nine and fifty events with about two hundred fifty thousand 916 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 4: people attending those events worldwide in one hundred and three countries, 917 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 4: including Venezuela and the Democratic Republic of Congo, and like 918 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 4: even California, you know. 919 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 1: Even California, that's below Africa. 920 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 3: Have you left yet? You have left? 921 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: No? No, no, I'm still what they call Carmi Fournier, 922 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: people who call it. 923 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe soon. It's a great state, for sure. 924 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 2: I mean I bought a little ranch. 925 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 1: I got a little ranch in Texas and we got 926 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,759 Speaker 1: some cows and some goats on it, and we're off 927 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: grid with solar and we got a well and all that. 928 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 2: So I got my bugouts. Buttom building a. 929 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: Place in Mexico right now, beautiful. I'm kind of I'm 930 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: preparing for some exits, but currently California is still pretty nice, man. 931 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 3: I like that. 932 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 4: And so while this is great that we had like 933 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 4: two or fifteen thousand people talk about the ideas like 934 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 4: you and I talk about, or like philosophy or how 935 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 4: free markets can help the environment, or whatever the students 936 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 4: want to talk about, because it's very much bought them up. 937 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 4: While that is exciting, I care about this number only 938 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 4: as a proxy for the efficacy, the pain, the failure, 939 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 4: the success, and the learning of what young people are 940 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 4: accomplishing behind those numbers, because it's all student driven. So 941 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,400 Speaker 4: for instance, you have like a nineteen year old students 942 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:46,320 Speaker 4: like inviting a speaker. 943 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 3: Maybe theyn write like a Mark Moss and it's like 944 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:48,399 Speaker 3: a big deal. 945 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 4: They have to write that email and get like nervous 946 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 4: about it, or like raise money for that event, And 947 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 4: those are the skills that will show them like, hey, 948 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 4: I'm not just like a cog in the wheel. I'm 949 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,360 Speaker 4: like somebody that can contribute to society and I can 950 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 4: produce value. And I'm a product of the organization myself. 951 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 4: When I was in my young twenties, I raised fifty 952 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 4: thousand years, started a training program and got to interview 953 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 4: like all the people that we got as part of 954 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 4: the program then, and those skills are still with me today. 955 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 4: It's not my academic pedigrees. I would discount all of that. 956 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 4: I would say, like, if you go out there and 957 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 4: just like take action and try things, and yes you 958 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,240 Speaker 4: will fail and learn, but then you will get more agency. 959 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 3: And that's what I'm excited about. That's what we need. 960 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 4: We don't have to have everyone understand like, hey, you 961 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,879 Speaker 4: have to like get rid of the federal Reserve. I'd 962 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 4: rather have everyone understand like you can't take charge of 963 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:38,880 Speaker 4: your own action. You don't have to look for the 964 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 4: government or to your parent or whatever. That they solve 965 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,720 Speaker 4: all of your problems and that will lead to millions 966 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 4: of different solutions that we cannot even envision right now. 967 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:52,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, we could go on and on and on about 968 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: changing the incentive structure. I mean, there's a million rabbit 969 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: holes we could go down into how bitcoin can change things. 970 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 1: But seeing as I'm sitting down with a an Austrian 971 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: economists here, an expert subject matter expert in this, I 972 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,359 Speaker 1: have some of the questions I want to ask you. 973 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: And it's something that I've gone round and around around 974 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: with some other people on and if we go to 975 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,719 Speaker 1: something like bitcoin that changes incentive structures and time preference 976 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: and the ability to save and transact and all these 977 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,800 Speaker 1: things that we can go into. But if we imagine ourselves, 978 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: so if we fast forward and we're in that, So 979 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: bitcoin has a fixed supply cap of twenty one million, 980 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: So there's a fixed supply cap, which means it's not deflationary, 981 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: but it's fixed right as opposed to an inflationary monetary supply. 982 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 1: So as our monetary supply inflates, I think the proper 983 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: terminology I guess maybe would be that as you inflate 984 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 1: the monetary supply that each unit is worth less, which 985 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: is why prices rise. Our currency buys us less goods 986 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: and services. So in a fixed monetary supply and a 987 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,239 Speaker 1: deflationary environment, the good prices of goods and services would 988 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: be getting less and less and less. But what some 989 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,439 Speaker 1: people have hard time with is two things. One maybe 990 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: I put on a tree whilego. Two of the greatest 991 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,799 Speaker 1: tricks the FED ever pulled on us was one making 992 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: us believe that the money supply has to always expand, 993 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 1: and two the asset prices are going up. So one 994 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: is people think that the money supply always has to expand, 995 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: and if it doesn't, then credit drives up and then 996 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 1: or slows wig is constrained, which I think is the point. 997 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: But then maybe we don't get the advancements in medicine 998 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,359 Speaker 1: or technologies that we have seen today. So that's that's 999 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 1: step number one, So let's talk about that. And then 1000 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: the second one we'll frame up is you can't stop 1001 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: fractional reserve from happening, and so people are always going 1002 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 1: to create additional mantrainer. So even though bitcoin has a 1003 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 1: twenty one million supply cap, there will actually be more 1004 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,520 Speaker 1: because people will create more currency units. So let's talk 1005 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: about those two things. So one, if we don't have 1006 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: the ability to continue to create this credit system, we're 1007 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,400 Speaker 1: on a credit based, debt based system, then how slow 1008 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: do does progress grind to a halt time? 1009 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 4: Excellent questions, and most people would believe in those things. 1010 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,040 Speaker 4: How you've put them right, But we both see the 1011 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 4: flaws and that sort of thinking, because the flaw is 1012 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 4: that why would you need something to always go up 1013 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 4: in prices? Like why do you have to have a 1014 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,239 Speaker 4: stable price system? Even the concept of a stable price 1015 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,240 Speaker 4: system doesn't make sense. There's no stable price system. 1016 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,239 Speaker 1: Like we talked about earlier, I might pay more for 1017 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 1: a coffee in the morning than I would pay for 1018 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: a coffee in the afternoon exactly. 1019 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:31,760 Speaker 4: Or there might be like an innovation within the coffee 1020 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,239 Speaker 4: industry and suddenly like the prices are being cut in half, right, 1021 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 4: or the government is printing more money, or like there 1022 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,360 Speaker 4: might be millions of different reasons and prices. 1023 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 3: Like the power of prices is. 1024 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:44,319 Speaker 4: Because it is information wrapped up in an incentive. That's 1025 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,320 Speaker 4: what the price is, information wrapped up in an incentive. 1026 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 2: So if the. 1027 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 3: Price goes up, that's an indication. Okay, it has become 1028 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,880 Speaker 3: relatively scarce, the price goes down, there's more available, So 1029 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 3: there's price is changing all the time for millions of 1030 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 3: different reasons. So why would you want to keep that stable? 1031 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 4: Because the very instability of that system, if you want 1032 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 4: to call it, that are the information that people need 1033 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,799 Speaker 4: to receive so that they connect on it. Like you 1034 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 4: and I, we probably don't care about like the price 1035 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 4: of copper all that much, right, but there is millions 1036 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:13,840 Speaker 4: of people that look at the copper markets because it 1037 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,480 Speaker 4: affects really their goods and services that maybe potentially very 1038 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:17,959 Speaker 4: down the line affect us. 1039 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 3: So the very concept of keeping it stable makes no sense. 1040 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 4: Point two, I would say the United States had a 1041 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 4: diminishing general price level for I think like a close 1042 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 4: of one hundred of years because it was relatively stable 1043 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,400 Speaker 4: because as you've said, the price, like the amount of 1044 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,920 Speaker 4: money in society stayed relatively the same and the productivity 1045 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 4: went up. So there's more stuff in society with the 1046 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,960 Speaker 4: same amount of money. So the well, the cost of 1047 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,719 Speaker 4: the price of the things that I are within society 1048 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 4: has to go down. And why is that a bad thing? 1049 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 4: And why can that not work? We have seen this 1050 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 4: in technology, worst law, like people were questioning it recently, 1051 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 4: but it's stale holds two those far and technology. 1052 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:02,200 Speaker 3: The prices are going. 1053 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 4: Down all the time in some of the sectors of 1054 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 4: all of them. Of course, however, it's super efficient, it's 1055 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 4: super productive, and it made America like still be like 1056 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaker 4: one of the witchest nations in the world. So we 1057 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,080 Speaker 4: have this practical example, and we have the theoretical argument 1058 00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 4: of like, there is no stable price system, so what's 1059 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,799 Speaker 4: the problem here, And even if we have twenty one 1060 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 4: million bitcoin, and yes it goes as symptotically like there 1061 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,480 Speaker 4: will be few and fewer bitcoin with the harpening every 1062 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 4: four years, it doesn't mean that you cannot like live 1063 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,680 Speaker 4: on in a bitcoin system with like a few thousand 1064 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 4: sartosis instead of like like ten bitcoin, Like why. 1065 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:35,319 Speaker 3: Would that be. 1066 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,000 Speaker 4: It's just like, if it's a gradual exchange and productivity 1067 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 4: rises gradually and the price level goes gradually, that gives 1068 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 4: people the ability to predict and therefore to make entrepreneurial 1069 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 4: decisions about their future costs and the present prices, which 1070 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,880 Speaker 4: is completely more predictable than a fear system where you 1071 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,680 Speaker 4: have all of these strucks and crises because you just 1072 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 4: flood the whole market with cheap money. 1073 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 1: But I think you're you're highlighting, and this is a 1074 00:48:58,040 --> 00:48:59,880 Speaker 1: key piece, is that there's no such thing as certainties 1075 00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 1: in life, and we have probabilities, but we also everything 1076 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,959 Speaker 1: has like a cost benefit analysis, and so there's pros 1077 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,359 Speaker 1: and cons to everything, and so you've highlighted a lot 1078 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 1: of pros. And I would typically kind of flip that 1079 00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: back as a question to people, and I'd say, well, 1080 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,239 Speaker 1: would you rather your money buy you more goods and 1081 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,520 Speaker 1: service in the future or less good point and everybody'd 1082 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 1: rather have more. 1083 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:20,520 Speaker 2: And so those are the benefits, Like our life. 1084 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,840 Speaker 1: Should be getting easier, we should be working less hours 1085 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:27,640 Speaker 1: to maintain same quality of life. Most peopleould want that. However, 1086 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:30,680 Speaker 1: that would be a pro. But a con and this 1087 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:32,440 Speaker 1: is what I was asking you about, is the con 1088 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: would be that I can't get the money I need 1089 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,680 Speaker 1: to go design this new drug, and I can't get 1090 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,040 Speaker 1: the money I need to go develop the next iPhone 1091 00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:45,120 Speaker 1: or the next whatever, because they're not create now without 1092 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,839 Speaker 1: this debt based montec system where they're creating this debt 1093 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,080 Speaker 1: it contract, you know, restricts the monetary supply, and then 1094 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,360 Speaker 1: we don't have the progress. So now how does that 1095 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 1: drug get made, How does that new piece of technology 1096 00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,720 Speaker 1: get built, how does that new data center or whatever? 1097 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,480 Speaker 1: Interesting argument for sure, and people will always say, and 1098 00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,479 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna of course people always say when people 1099 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,280 Speaker 1: always lend, it will always be there, but it could 1100 00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,439 Speaker 1: really slow progress down. 1101 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 4: I would, then, as you do, like turn back the 1102 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,360 Speaker 4: question and say, like, hey, would you weather like invest 1103 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,799 Speaker 4: and be an entrepreneur in a system where you, yes, 1104 00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 4: you have access to cheap money and therefore you can 1105 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:27,960 Speaker 4: invest more. However, that money is not based on fundamentals. 1106 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,239 Speaker 4: There's not like real goods and services behind it because 1107 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,280 Speaker 4: it's just paper and like all the individuals printed, there's. 1108 00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,719 Speaker 1: Always goods and services behind it instead of a different denomination. 1109 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's like much fewer Like would you be 1110 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,720 Speaker 4: like an entrepreneur where it's uncertain, like when that system 1111 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,200 Speaker 4: potentially crumbles, versus a system where it is based on 1112 00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,279 Speaker 4: something real? And I think most people say, like, yeah, 1113 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,400 Speaker 4: I want to be based on something real because then 1114 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 4: I can do like more planning, because the thing is like, 1115 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 4: if you don't do that, then you go back to 1116 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:56,719 Speaker 4: the Austin business like a theory that we've talked about. 1117 00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,160 Speaker 3: Which always ends in the same boom and bust exactly. 1118 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,920 Speaker 1: And so maybe in like the tortoise and hair analogy, 1119 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,799 Speaker 1: the boom bust the Kinsian cycle grows way faster, but 1120 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,560 Speaker 1: boombus boom bab boom busts, and maybe a slower growth 1121 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,840 Speaker 1: ends up in the same location at some point. 1122 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,879 Speaker 3: And I would say it's it's hard to tell. 1123 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 4: Like and also as a petun prediction, I would say, like, 1124 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,760 Speaker 4: it's very interesting to think about, like our people more 1125 00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,520 Speaker 4: capable to be productive in an environment that it's like 1126 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,120 Speaker 4: more inherently predictable instead of like cheap money versus like 1127 00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:30,919 Speaker 4: having cheap money. And then like the boom bust cycle, 1128 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:32,960 Speaker 4: it's a very interesting question. I would say, it's more 1129 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,280 Speaker 4: sustainable for sure if it's like more predictable and therefore 1130 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,759 Speaker 4: like based on something real compared to something imaginary. 1131 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:43,000 Speaker 1: So the trade off is, would you rather have a 1132 00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,359 Speaker 1: system that gives you the money to go create this 1133 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,960 Speaker 1: new drug or this new technology to have this progress 1134 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,200 Speaker 1: and growth knowing that the trade off is a destruction 1135 00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:52,239 Speaker 1: of society MM. 1136 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,359 Speaker 3: One point, or like let's try to make it even, 1137 00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:56,600 Speaker 3: like so you. 1138 00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:00,640 Speaker 1: Have the good of progress and growth, but you have 1139 00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,680 Speaker 1: the bad destruction of society and break down a family 1140 00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:05,399 Speaker 1: and it's and all the other stuff that happens there. 1141 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:07,440 Speaker 3: And some people might say like, oh, that's going to 1142 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,200 Speaker 3: be tomorrow. I'll take that. It's going to be alive. 1143 00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, eh, But like then let's maybe make it a 1144 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 4: little bit more tangible because like often these concepts and 1145 00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,800 Speaker 4: like concepts like government, they're so aggregated, right, and it's 1146 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:18,279 Speaker 4: trying to bring it down a little bit. That's what 1147 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,239 Speaker 4: Austrians are also pedagogically speaking. If you want to understand economics, 1148 00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,399 Speaker 4: it's like so much better because you understand what's going 1149 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:25,880 Speaker 4: on and then you can tackle more complicated stuff. 1150 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:26,920 Speaker 3: But let's say like. 1151 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,440 Speaker 4: Ask the same question, like do you want something that's 1152 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,040 Speaker 4: like a little bit more predictable or do you want 1153 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,239 Speaker 4: like access to like cheaper money right now? If you 1154 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,000 Speaker 4: ask that to somebody that for instance, creates automobiles and 1155 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,440 Speaker 4: say like, hey, do you want to like live in 1156 00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,040 Speaker 4: a in a world where you don't know if the 1157 00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,680 Speaker 4: supply of steel is actually the supply of steel that 1158 00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:47,520 Speaker 4: you're working with right now or it might be like 1159 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,799 Speaker 4: thirty percent different tomorrow, Because that's what you're actually saying, 1160 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,080 Speaker 4: because the money stands for all of these goods and services, 1161 00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,280 Speaker 4: and they would say, like, hell no, only. 1162 00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,080 Speaker 1: Because it's like so much negative that's the cost. 1163 00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:57,919 Speaker 3: That's the cost. 1164 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, but does the cost out weigh the benefit? 1165 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:00,520 Speaker 3: Right? 1166 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,200 Speaker 4: But in that example they would see like that the 1167 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:04,400 Speaker 4: that the costs are like much higher than what they 1168 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,480 Speaker 4: had thought they were quick exactly, but yeah, it's. 1169 00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,120 Speaker 1: So we don't know. This is where theory just comes 1170 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,200 Speaker 1: in and we're all just making assumptions in the future. 1171 00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,880 Speaker 1: And I would I'm a bitcoin obviously, and so I 1172 00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,400 Speaker 1: would agree that I think I would rather have a slower, 1173 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,000 Speaker 1: more predictable growth world. I wouldn't want to trade off 1174 00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:23,080 Speaker 1: all the damages done to society for potential of more growth. 1175 00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:24,880 Speaker 2: But it's certainly something to think about. 1176 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,480 Speaker 4: If I may jump in there, and going back to 1177 00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:30,640 Speaker 4: the military point, like maybe I'm completely wrong, And Austrians 1178 00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:32,800 Speaker 4: would say, like, maybe I'm completely wrong, but like why 1179 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,640 Speaker 4: then we don't have like a competitive system. Maybe your 1180 00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:37,960 Speaker 4: system then like let's just assume like ye, it will 1181 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,920 Speaker 4: be cheap money in a volbal fast and then you 1182 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,280 Speaker 4: have like my system where it's like more where people 1183 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,759 Speaker 4: decide themselves amongst themselves what the interest rates need to 1184 00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:46,840 Speaker 4: be because of you know, the human action. 1185 00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 3: And then's see how it works. 1186 00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,040 Speaker 4: But the peculiar thing is always with these ideas of 1187 00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,080 Speaker 4: big government or socialists and so forth. 1188 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:54,520 Speaker 3: They don't like the competition. 1189 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, the FIAT money is a problem because not inherently, 1190 00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,360 Speaker 4: but because there's they don't alone any kind of other competition. 1191 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,399 Speaker 1: You can't you can't allow Caitlin Long. 1192 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:05,640 Speaker 3: If they think it's better, they should. 1193 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you start Kaitlin Long, she tried to launch 1194 00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,680 Speaker 1: that Custodia Bank and the FED shut it down. It 1195 00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:13,920 Speaker 1: could it's gonna be a full reserve bank. And there 1196 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,239 Speaker 1: was another one. I forget now what it was. There's 1197 00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,120 Speaker 1: another bank that tried to picture a full reserve bank 1198 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,440 Speaker 1: and they also got denied. And you know, some of 1199 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:22,920 Speaker 1: the thought process the FED hadn't said this obviously, but 1200 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:24,680 Speaker 1: some of the thought processes. They don't want to allow 1201 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:28,400 Speaker 1: a full reserve bank because it will destroy the banking system. 1202 00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,160 Speaker 1: Everybody will want to go to that maybe maybe not 1203 00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:32,920 Speaker 1: you know, maybe, but but that they're afraid of the 1204 00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:34,360 Speaker 1: competition because we don't want that. 1205 00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:36,319 Speaker 3: Okay, but that's an interesting point. 1206 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,840 Speaker 4: Because of the faction reserve banking, I would just say, like, 1207 00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,760 Speaker 4: let the market de side, like many Austrians one hundred percents, 1208 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:43,239 Speaker 4: but some of them are not, Like I'm like more 1209 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,920 Speaker 4: in the not category because like I always like to 1210 00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,920 Speaker 4: give an example, we know that, for instance, airlines are 1211 00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,160 Speaker 4: selling more seats than they have on a plane. Right, 1212 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:57,200 Speaker 4: that's fection reserve if they have like big data, right, 1213 00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,560 Speaker 4: and they know that typically like whatever, it is, like 1214 00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,279 Speaker 4: three percent of the people that have a ticket don't 1215 00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:04,359 Speaker 4: show up. Is this a bad business practice to do? 1216 00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:06,160 Speaker 2: Is this fraud? 1217 00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,440 Speaker 4: Because like most people who don't get on an airplane, 1218 00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,400 Speaker 4: they get like thousands, thousand of dollars and typically they 1219 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,239 Speaker 4: like incentives, they're able to move people around, but it's 1220 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,640 Speaker 4: generally better for them to fill out the planes that way. 1221 00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,680 Speaker 4: Is that like a fraud the system? I wouldn't say 1222 00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,000 Speaker 4: it is, but some people say it is. But like 1223 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,440 Speaker 4: why don't let that compete? And some people that probably 1224 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,520 Speaker 4: like me a little bit more risktaking, I say, like 1225 00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:28,759 Speaker 4: I'm okay with putting some of my money in a 1226 00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,200 Speaker 4: faction reserve bank, not like zero percent fractional reserve or 1227 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:33,880 Speaker 4: two percent, but maybe it's like ten. 1228 00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:35,040 Speaker 2: Percent, but you can decide. 1229 00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,200 Speaker 1: So, hey, exactly, I'm at a fifty percent and I 1230 00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:39,600 Speaker 1: pay you fifteen percent. He's at a thirty percent and 1231 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,399 Speaker 1: pays you twelve percent, And now you can choose which 1232 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,200 Speaker 1: one you want, how much risk you're willing to take 1233 00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,400 Speaker 1: if there was some transparency and you can quantify that 1234 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:49,080 Speaker 1: risk correct And yeah, so I would certainly be for 1235 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,840 Speaker 1: a competition. That's how we find out what works exactly. Okay, 1236 00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:57,080 Speaker 1: So then the answer is for that is maybe we'd 1237 00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,359 Speaker 1: have less progress and growth you think the trade would 1238 00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:02,719 Speaker 1: be worth it for the stability of the prices and 1239 00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:03,840 Speaker 1: so forth. 1240 00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:05,760 Speaker 3: I'm not even sure we would have less. 1241 00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,080 Speaker 4: I mean maybe in a short one, but like in 1242 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,240 Speaker 4: the medium to long run, I think like a purely 1243 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,560 Speaker 4: free market based system where you have solid pricess systems 1244 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,440 Speaker 4: and people are interacting with it, I think that will always. 1245 00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,760 Speaker 1: Because right now, like if my landscaping businesses is growing 1246 00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:24,120 Speaker 1: really really fast, my neighborhood is booming and we need 1247 00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,640 Speaker 1: more landscaping services, I can go down and buy five 1248 00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:31,000 Speaker 1: new trucks on credit, and then I can hire five 1249 00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,759 Speaker 1: crews to go work around those, and I take on 1250 00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:35,279 Speaker 1: a few thousand dollars of debt, but it brings me 1251 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,279 Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars of revenues. That works really good for me, 1252 00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,680 Speaker 1: and then all the downstream effects of those five trucks. 1253 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,920 Speaker 1: So back to the pencil, right, so the manufacturers and 1254 00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:45,919 Speaker 1: the vendors and blah blah blah. Right, So how much 1255 00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:47,799 Speaker 1: growth came because I was able to get a loan 1256 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,440 Speaker 1: for five trucks. Now, if I had to save, it 1257 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,840 Speaker 1: would take me my lifetime to get those five trucks. 1258 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:54,640 Speaker 3: Very interesting points. 1259 00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,200 Speaker 4: I like that, and I a preshiate you pushing back because, 1260 00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:00,480 Speaker 4: like often many everybody agrees with everyone. I think there's 1261 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:02,719 Speaker 4: an empirical answer that question. I don't have the data 1262 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:04,520 Speaker 4: in front of me, but like one could look at 1263 00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:10,640 Speaker 4: how do society's economies compare that have like relatively stable 1264 00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,880 Speaker 4: and and like lower or like higher interest rates versus 1265 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:17,000 Speaker 4: economies that have like very lower interest rates and lending. Yeah, 1266 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:18,760 Speaker 4: and over like a period of time. Right, you can 1267 00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:19,160 Speaker 4: compare them. 1268 00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:20,960 Speaker 1: Well, you would look at lots of other countries that 1269 00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,560 Speaker 1: don't have accessible credit and look where they're at on 1270 00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,640 Speaker 1: the progress scale. So I told you I'm building a 1271 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:27,800 Speaker 1: place in Mexico. 1272 00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:28,800 Speaker 2: That's a cash thing. 1273 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and look at Mexico compared to the United States, Right, 1274 00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:35,920 Speaker 1: and so those countries that don't have easy credit markets 1275 00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:36,720 Speaker 1: look a lot. 1276 00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,640 Speaker 4: Different, correct, And it's also like whier economies that have, 1277 00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:42,080 Speaker 4: for instance, are dollar wised because they have been through 1278 00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:46,120 Speaker 4: like a period of hyper inflation or like completely when bankrupt. Right, 1279 00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,800 Speaker 4: why do they tend to be better than countries who 1280 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:51,640 Speaker 4: are not dollar wise in the same system. I mean, 1281 00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:53,200 Speaker 4: they're giving up a lot of power and it's really 1282 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,280 Speaker 4: bad for them, right because they're just like eating up 1283 00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,640 Speaker 4: the inflation of like the bigger the United States, but 1284 00:57:57,720 --> 00:57:59,080 Speaker 4: in the grand scheme of things on dollar and like 1285 00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:01,160 Speaker 4: how much dollars I want it doesn't matter really, But 1286 00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,480 Speaker 4: like why are they more stable than like where economies 1287 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:05,480 Speaker 4: where they have actually control all the money supply. But 1288 00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:07,760 Speaker 4: you could argue like, hey, they're not as sophisticated and 1289 00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:10,600 Speaker 4: they're like further down like in the ABYSS compared to 1290 00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,400 Speaker 4: like maybe the United States right now some other countries 1291 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:15,080 Speaker 4: where you can play that game a little bit longer. 1292 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,959 Speaker 4: So just about like it's just a tough question to ask, 1293 00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,360 Speaker 4: like how much you know, emphetamine do. 1294 00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:22,400 Speaker 3: You pump into your system? 1295 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:23,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? 1296 00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, until it's like becomes really a problem. Yeah yeah, 1297 00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:27,200 Speaker 3: I said, like yeah, maybe you don't want to do 1298 00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:27,920 Speaker 3: it in the first place. 1299 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So then the next part of that question, 1300 00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,680 Speaker 1: which is on a fixed money supply twenty one million, 1301 00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:36,640 Speaker 1: and then talking about the fractional reserve system that we have. 1302 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:39,920 Speaker 1: You know, some would argue that there's no way to 1303 00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,600 Speaker 1: keep a twenty one million cap because people will create 1304 00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:46,640 Speaker 1: more bitcoin artificially. Like with the gold market, we have 1305 00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:49,600 Speaker 1: hundred paper ounces for every one physical ounce, or people 1306 00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,200 Speaker 1: don't even know how many. There is about one hundred 1307 00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:57,200 Speaker 1: to one trade on a daily basis. So how would 1308 00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,560 Speaker 1: you prevent that I And what does that do to 1309 00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,480 Speaker 1: the system. People are now creating fraction reserve on top 1310 00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:04,720 Speaker 1: of bitcoin or creating paper bitcoin. 1311 00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:08,440 Speaker 4: So they will never be able to increase the total 1312 00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:13,240 Speaker 4: supply of bitcoin just from the from the code, just 1313 00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:14,040 Speaker 4: from Bitcoin core. 1314 00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:15,120 Speaker 3: That's not possible. 1315 00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 4: I mean they always tried to do that, right because 1316 00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,960 Speaker 4: like everyone in the system who already owns bitcoin and 1317 00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,200 Speaker 4: who's running a note can enforce the code. And if 1318 00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,160 Speaker 4: the code says like, oh suddenly there's like twenty three 1319 00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,320 Speaker 4: million or like let's say the double amount, you know, 1320 00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:29,480 Speaker 4: you don't want to have a fifty percent haircut on 1321 00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,040 Speaker 4: your value. So therefore everybody would go against it. So 1322 00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:36,160 Speaker 4: just from the game theoretical setup of bitcoin, that is 1323 00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:38,000 Speaker 4: not going to happen. However, you're making a different argument 1324 00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,280 Speaker 4: saying like, okay, like what about fraction reserve. 1325 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,480 Speaker 1: Because it would still affect the supply demand fair enough? 1326 00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:44,440 Speaker 4: Yes, it probably would, and then there might be like 1327 00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:46,760 Speaker 4: more paper bitcoin out there than real bitcoin. 1328 00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,760 Speaker 1: However, we saw FTX had what one point four billion 1329 00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:52,520 Speaker 1: dollars of the bitcoin on their books, but they only 1330 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,040 Speaker 1: had one actual bitcoin. 1331 00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:58,360 Speaker 3: Wasn't that that drastic? Yeah, that's hilarious, I mean sad, 1332 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:00,919 Speaker 3: but also hilarious. Yeah, set for all of the people 1333 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:01,840 Speaker 3: that invested. 1334 01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,600 Speaker 1: In that they had paper bitcoin claims. 1335 01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:08,400 Speaker 4: Indeed, So I don't consider that potent to be like 1336 01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:11,560 Speaker 4: an issue necessarily because we have examples throughout history of 1337 01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,920 Speaker 4: a system called free banking and that has happened, and 1338 01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,680 Speaker 4: it just means that there's like as little regulation on 1339 01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,040 Speaker 4: the banking system as possible. It was never one hundred 1340 01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,920 Speaker 4: percent free, but like relatively free, and this was for instance, 1341 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,600 Speaker 4: happened in China, happened in Canada, happened in Scotland, and 1342 01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:26,680 Speaker 4: Scotland happens to be like. 1343 01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:29,360 Speaker 2: The best example and the US very free. 1344 01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:30,880 Speaker 3: No, No, they did not have that. 1345 01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,920 Speaker 4: They had like always like really atrocious banking regulations and 1346 01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,120 Speaker 4: you actually couldn't like open up. There was a huge 1347 01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,400 Speaker 4: problem for the United States to actually become like Witcher 1348 01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:41,960 Speaker 4: because at some point the banking system was so that 1349 01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:43,800 Speaker 4: if you had like a regional bank in that area, 1350 01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:45,400 Speaker 4: you would not be able to have like another bank 1351 01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,400 Speaker 4: somewhere else, which then doesn't allow you to diversify, and 1352 01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:49,920 Speaker 4: you become like less robust as a bank. 1353 01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:52,040 Speaker 1: And because they each have their own currency. So now 1354 01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:54,120 Speaker 1: my currency is good in this region with this bank, 1355 01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:55,680 Speaker 1: but if I go to a different region, my currency 1356 01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:57,240 Speaker 1: is no good or at a massive discount. 1357 01:00:57,520 --> 01:00:59,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, that didn't exist so much a little bit. But 1358 01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:01,800 Speaker 4: like that is actually a feature, another bug, I would say, 1359 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,240 Speaker 4: And that's what free banking is because banks were actually 1360 01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,640 Speaker 4: allowed to print their own currency. 1361 01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:10,000 Speaker 1: And no, but because they weren't allowed to have multiple branches. 1362 01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,320 Speaker 1: Oh yes, so now they print this currency in New York, 1363 01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,520 Speaker 1: but then I go to Texas and now it's worth 1364 01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:16,600 Speaker 1: seventy percent because that person has to go back to 1365 01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,360 Speaker 1: New York to redeem it. And so yeah, it's a feature. 1366 01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,160 Speaker 1: They could print their own currency. But because to your 1367 01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:23,880 Speaker 1: first point that they couldn't have multiple branches, that caused 1368 01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:24,320 Speaker 1: a problem. 1369 01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:25,840 Speaker 2: And then as a side. 1370 01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:29,920 Speaker 1: Note, interesting enough, it looks like one of the greatest 1371 01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:32,240 Speaker 1: downfalls of that was to your point, they couldn't scale. 1372 01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,880 Speaker 1: But also they were forced to buy government bonds. What's 1373 01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:39,960 Speaker 1: causing the banking collapse today. They bought government bonds. 1374 01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:41,520 Speaker 3: To put a weighted beautiful debt. 1375 01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:43,840 Speaker 1: It's the same problem anyway. 1376 01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:45,560 Speaker 2: That's a side note, but keep going sidey. 1377 01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:47,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, So no, that is all very good, good points. 1378 01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:51,000 Speaker 4: And so the system was one and we have to 1379 01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,960 Speaker 4: keep in mind that only because it is has transaction 1380 01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:58,960 Speaker 4: costs anything doesn't mean it's it's necessarily inefficient. Right, So 1381 01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:01,840 Speaker 4: if you have like different areas where have different currencies, 1382 01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:04,480 Speaker 4: that's still still okay, and you will have like exchange. 1383 01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:06,720 Speaker 4: Right now, we have like how many different currencies are 1384 01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:10,520 Speaker 4: out there, right, like sixty seventy maybe more, probably more? 1385 01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:12,120 Speaker 3: Is that efficient or not? 1386 01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,000 Speaker 4: I mean it's hard hard to tell, Like it would 1387 01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:17,440 Speaker 4: be super efficient if you're only like one money. 1388 01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:17,400 Speaker 3: Do we want that? 1389 01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,400 Speaker 4: Hell no, because it will be like super manipulated until 1390 01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:21,840 Speaker 4: the ends of time, you know, and it will be 1391 01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,240 Speaker 4: super bad. So in regard to Scotland though they were 1392 01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:28,640 Speaker 4: able through competition issuing money, and of course there were 1393 01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:31,600 Speaker 4: sometimes like businesses going going down and there was like 1394 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:33,000 Speaker 4: this checks and balance in the system. 1395 01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:35,920 Speaker 3: However, generally people were able to. 1396 01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:40,320 Speaker 4: Produce more wealth invest into the future, and the system 1397 01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,120 Speaker 4: actually through naturally going to like a reserve ratio of 1398 01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:45,200 Speaker 4: two percent at some point because there was so much 1399 01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,360 Speaker 4: trust in the system because they have become so efficient. 1400 01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:51,439 Speaker 4: And I see that that is possible again. However, if 1401 01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:55,440 Speaker 4: then do we have a bank who is imprudent, then 1402 01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,640 Speaker 4: it will go bankrupt and then the stakeholders to suffer 1403 01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,720 Speaker 4: same as today. Right, why should it should be no 1404 01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:02,320 Speaker 4: risk in the system, no skin in the game. The 1405 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,160 Speaker 4: problem is that we don't have enough skin in. 1406 01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,400 Speaker 1: The gright, which is the whole reason whying to create 1407 01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,080 Speaker 1: the FED exactly and prevent banks from going bust. 1408 01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:11,600 Speaker 4: Pick the So it's it's not an easy sell, right 1409 01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,240 Speaker 4: it saying like, hey, you have to take more risks 1410 01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:16,640 Speaker 4: or maybe your bank and your life savings go bankrupt. However, 1411 01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:18,840 Speaker 4: there's bankruptcy proceedings and all that kind of stuff, and 1412 01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:21,480 Speaker 4: many people are making these sorts of risks right now 1413 01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,200 Speaker 4: by going to Vegas, or by even much much more 1414 01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,760 Speaker 4: prudent is friving having like a lot of company stock 1415 01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:28,880 Speaker 4: and you like investing into a startup and you're like 1416 01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,000 Speaker 4: one of the first employees there, and like eighty percent 1417 01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:33,760 Speaker 4: of your wealth is in that stock and suddenly goes away. 1418 01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:36,640 Speaker 4: Should we prevent that now, because that's the engine of 1419 01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:40,600 Speaker 4: wealth and prosperity. And it happens to also work with money. 1420 01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:42,600 Speaker 4: And I don't see any reason why you have to 1421 01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:48,160 Speaker 4: have a centralized production of money about the nationalization of 1422 01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:49,600 Speaker 4: money in one of his very short books, and I 1423 01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:50,920 Speaker 4: would recommend people to eat. 1424 01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:52,080 Speaker 1: That, which goes all the way back to kind of 1425 01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:54,760 Speaker 1: what we started talking about, which is the skin in 1426 01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:59,200 Speaker 1: the game or the consequence bringing back consequence. So then 1427 01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:02,080 Speaker 1: I guess then you're saying that even though we would 1428 01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:04,520 Speaker 1: have no more than twenty one million, you think it 1429 01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:09,439 Speaker 1: would be most likely that we would have competing banks, 1430 01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:11,280 Speaker 1: The would be some sort of fractional reserve. It would 1431 01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:15,720 Speaker 1: create more currency units, more bitcoin units, not on the chain, 1432 01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:19,000 Speaker 1: on the code, but on paper. There would be more. 1433 01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:20,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a limit to it. 1434 01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:23,320 Speaker 1: And then and then would that affect the supply demand, 1435 01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:26,880 Speaker 1: the equilibrium or the what happens to the price of bitcoin. 1436 01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:31,600 Speaker 1: If they're creating more bitcoin units or claims on bioin, it. 1437 01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:32,360 Speaker 3: Would affect the price. 1438 01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:34,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, let's say they got they extend the money supply 1439 01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:36,760 Speaker 4: by four x, so like we have like eighty four 1440 01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,320 Speaker 4: bitcoin now, right, and of course ed would. But it 1441 01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:44,120 Speaker 4: can only come over time, right because like in the beginning, 1442 01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:46,960 Speaker 4: you only trust like banks that you can really verify, right, 1443 01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:49,280 Speaker 4: And we have to imagine like a completely different world 1444 01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:51,280 Speaker 4: right now, because right now everybody thinks like all of 1445 01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:53,160 Speaker 4: the banks are safe, and people think they're putting the 1446 01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:55,479 Speaker 4: money in and the money is actually there. Right, try 1447 01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:57,320 Speaker 4: to get like fifty thousand they're like even twenty thousand 1448 01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:58,160 Speaker 4: dollars from a bank. 1449 01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,000 Speaker 2: Right now, even five in a lot of banks. 1450 01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:02,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean we hear these hory stories not only 1451 01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:04,240 Speaker 4: from Canada but also from the United States. 1452 01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:09,520 Speaker 1: Have to pre order cash, yeah yeah. 1453 01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:10,680 Speaker 4: And most people don't know that they think it's safe 1454 01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:13,400 Speaker 4: in there. So bitcoin most likely will only come about 1455 01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:16,040 Speaker 4: in a grand feshion after like some big collapse at 1456 01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,760 Speaker 4: least that's my pattern prediction, that more people opt into 1457 01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:20,840 Speaker 4: that and so people will not trust banks. There's like 1458 01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:24,960 Speaker 4: no business model coming up hopefully like there will be 1459 01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:27,280 Speaker 4: custodian banks that are like one hundred percent, and then 1460 01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:30,200 Speaker 4: they will shortly like increase the money supply a little 1461 01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:32,360 Speaker 4: bit and because they want to like test how much 1462 01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:33,880 Speaker 4: on the risk curve that can go out and it 1463 01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:35,840 Speaker 4: depends on, of course, like the risk appetite of the 1464 01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:39,120 Speaker 4: customers generally, and then only slowly there will be like 1465 01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:40,960 Speaker 4: more and at some point there will be like an equilibrium, 1466 01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:43,160 Speaker 4: but it will be not like as rapid and as 1467 01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:46,600 Speaker 4: like expansionary and inflationary as the system that we have 1468 01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,360 Speaker 4: right now where things can come into thing like that. 1469 01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:53,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the one big difference of bitcoin is 1470 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:57,480 Speaker 1: that it's it's an open you know, ledger, yes, and 1471 01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,360 Speaker 1: so we can see what the bank actually has versus 1472 01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:02,640 Speaker 1: what the bank has extended, and so then it allows 1473 01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,400 Speaker 1: us to gauge that risk with transparency as opposed to 1474 01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:08,120 Speaker 1: a traditional banking system where we really have no idea, 1475 01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:10,600 Speaker 1: and so then it allows that feedback mechanism to happen 1476 01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:12,440 Speaker 1: a lot faster. Also, it's a lot easier to just 1477 01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:15,000 Speaker 1: take your money out things like that, So I think 1478 01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,919 Speaker 1: that would greatly change it. I was kind of thinking 1479 01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:21,640 Speaker 1: along the lines of what misis framed up as like 1480 01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:28,240 Speaker 1: the difference of circulating credit versus commodity credit. So commodity 1481 01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,840 Speaker 1: credit would be if I grew ten bushels of wheat 1482 01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:33,800 Speaker 1: and I sold eight, I could give one of them 1483 01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:38,080 Speaker 1: to you on credit, but that came from my savings 1484 01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,600 Speaker 1: versus circulation credit was creating that credit out of thin air. 1485 01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:46,160 Speaker 1: So would you put the fractional reserve banking as like 1486 01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:47,320 Speaker 1: circulation credit. 1487 01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:51,600 Speaker 4: It's an interesting question, and in the first five minutes 1488 01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:53,960 Speaker 4: you presented yourself like as somebody that has not studied 1489 01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:55,840 Speaker 4: all of these things as deeply as I am. You 1490 01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,520 Speaker 4: are really diving into those topics and media understanding those. 1491 01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:01,720 Speaker 1: I'm asking questions. Sometimes I get comments on my videos 1492 01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:04,240 Speaker 1: like oh that guy owned you, or I'm like, I'm 1493 01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:06,600 Speaker 1: just asking questions, Like my goal is to ask questions. 1494 01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:08,440 Speaker 1: So but yeah, of course I'll study this. I spent 1495 01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,000 Speaker 1: a lot of time discussing and thinking about these things. 1496 01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:14,280 Speaker 4: And it goes into like the theory of money and credit, 1497 01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:15,920 Speaker 4: which is like one of Mes's books where a where 1498 01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:17,520 Speaker 4: he like, really dive what dives into that? 1499 01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, and I have my own thoughts to 1500 01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:22,080 Speaker 1: these questions. But I'm I want your viewpoint. 1501 01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:24,680 Speaker 4: Look, and I really enjoy that because like in my 1502 01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:26,840 Speaker 4: day to day, like I'm running a business, like I'm 1503 01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:28,800 Speaker 4: hiring people, you know, all these sorts of things, so 1504 01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:32,080 Speaker 4: I don't get the chance to, you know, engage into 1505 01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:34,200 Speaker 4: like those sorts of intellectual discussions as deeply as we 1506 01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,480 Speaker 4: are doing right now. So I appreciate that framework that 1507 01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:39,440 Speaker 4: you've created. Yeah, I would say, like it's it's probably 1508 01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:42,680 Speaker 4: more I mean, it's it's still it's still credit and 1509 01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:45,840 Speaker 4: it's still produced out of thin air. However, since bitcoin 1510 01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:51,120 Speaker 4: is not something that can be ever you know, reduceed 1511 01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:53,840 Speaker 4: to do like extended then more than twenty one million 1512 01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,640 Speaker 4: bitcoin on like on the chain, there is like a 1513 01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,080 Speaker 4: natural limit to that, and I think that gives me 1514 01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:03,000 Speaker 4: a lot of pause and and you know peace that 1515 01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,360 Speaker 4: that is not like the biggest issue. However, like I 1516 01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:08,600 Speaker 4: don't know, maybe you're d maybe I'm read, I really 1517 01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:11,560 Speaker 4: don't know. And that's the beautiful thing. So Moss Bank 1518 01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:13,720 Speaker 4: will compare against von lab Bank. You will probably win 1519 01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:15,960 Speaker 4: because most bank's not so much better than my last time. 1520 01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,360 Speaker 3: It's harder to beat. And you already have like. 1521 01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:21,519 Speaker 4: A huge audience, like you have a reputation you know, 1522 01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:23,320 Speaker 4: and all of that will be and that's that's all 1523 01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,720 Speaker 4: what it is, like you investing in businesses or you 1524 01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:27,280 Speaker 4: go to restaurant because you can check it up on 1525 01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:29,479 Speaker 4: the help and people will just like say, like, okay, 1526 01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:32,320 Speaker 4: it's marked mores believable and can we trust him with 1527 01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,120 Speaker 4: our money? And if you can't, then you will go 1528 01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:37,040 Speaker 4: out of business. And then it will go back from 1529 01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:40,960 Speaker 4: like maybe eighty million into like sixty million bitcoin on paper, 1530 01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:42,599 Speaker 4: but like still there will be only twenty one million 1531 01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:45,320 Speaker 4: because some people will hold them themselves, which is like 1532 01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:48,200 Speaker 4: this revolutionary thing that you can be your own bank, 1533 01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:52,080 Speaker 4: which mankind humankind never had access to it before. 1534 01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:57,559 Speaker 2: So then we'll we'll round it off with this question. 1535 01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:02,519 Speaker 1: So then we maybe don't get as much growth, and 1536 01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:05,639 Speaker 1: the cost benefit analysis is probably worth it in your opinion, 1537 01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:09,320 Speaker 1: meaning less tear down of society, more predictable future, which 1538 01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:12,000 Speaker 1: is what we always want, right, more predictable future, and 1539 01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,400 Speaker 1: maybe we sacrifice left growth. You might say that we 1540 01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:16,559 Speaker 1: might still have the same growth over a different timeframe. 1541 01:09:18,320 --> 01:09:22,519 Speaker 1: We would probably have fractional reserve banking, but that would 1542 01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:25,439 Speaker 1: be okay because there would be competition and it would 1543 01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:27,559 Speaker 1: allow us to pick and choose, and we could test 1544 01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:28,880 Speaker 1: different theories out. 1545 01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:32,519 Speaker 4: You could probably buy inschouance against like banks like going bankrupt, 1546 01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:34,320 Speaker 4: like as you can mention by chewing for most other things, and. 1547 01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:36,360 Speaker 1: Then that would offset some of the first problem of 1548 01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:38,680 Speaker 1: the growth, because now with fractional banking, you would have 1549 01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:42,320 Speaker 1: that the fractional banking that would happen would expand the 1550 01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:45,080 Speaker 1: paper supply of bitcoin. And you don't really view that 1551 01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:46,120 Speaker 1: as a bad thing. 1552 01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:50,559 Speaker 3: Not in itself, No, not in itself, which the first 1553 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:51,080 Speaker 3: probably I'm. 1554 01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:52,880 Speaker 4: Pissing off a little bitcoin us by now, But like 1555 01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:56,160 Speaker 4: you know, I don't see like again, going back to 1556 01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:58,760 Speaker 4: the outline example, I don't see that as inheavenly problematic 1557 01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:01,400 Speaker 4: and like flawed, as long as it's managed well in 1558 01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:04,439 Speaker 4: competition and having more banks coming into the system will 1559 01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:06,120 Speaker 4: be the discipline that the market needs in order to 1560 01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:06,960 Speaker 4: and then but then. 1561 01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,120 Speaker 1: But then by then creating that money and changing the supply, 1562 01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:13,280 Speaker 1: the paper supply, but making make sure we're clearing that, 1563 01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:16,679 Speaker 1: you know, four six, eight times or whatever, that doesn't 1564 01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:19,520 Speaker 1: change the future cost and price. 1565 01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:19,879 Speaker 2: Of the money. 1566 01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:21,639 Speaker 3: No, it does, it does, of course. 1567 01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:24,160 Speaker 1: So now we're back to the first problem, which is 1568 01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:27,439 Speaker 1: you said we'd rather have a fixed monitors'pply because you'll 1569 01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:28,880 Speaker 1: know what the price of still will be in the future. 1570 01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:30,599 Speaker 1: But if we go to a fractional reserve system, now 1571 01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:31,880 Speaker 1: we're back in the same proble where we don't know 1572 01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:33,280 Speaker 1: what the price of still will be in the future. Yep, 1573 01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:36,759 Speaker 1: it's all about So we didn't actually fix anything, Yes. 1574 01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:41,559 Speaker 4: We did, because it's it's about like the entrepreneurs always 1575 01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:45,800 Speaker 4: like uncertainty, you know, is a premennial effect of life, right, 1576 01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:49,040 Speaker 4: and we will never do away with it. Is a 1577 01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:55,040 Speaker 4: system better that is like gradually going into one direction 1578 01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:58,160 Speaker 4: where the supply of bitcoin is known, where there is 1579 01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:00,960 Speaker 4: a limitation on a system being set by the twenty 1580 01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:03,680 Speaker 4: one million, or like a system where you have like 1581 01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:05,439 Speaker 4: some people in charge they can just say from one 1582 01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:07,280 Speaker 4: day to another, we need like ten to ten percent 1583 01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:10,599 Speaker 4: more like you know, cheap money into the system. Which 1584 01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:12,640 Speaker 4: system is like more predictive and more productive for the 1585 01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:16,040 Speaker 4: entrepreneur and for people to make decisions on because prices 1586 01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:17,719 Speaker 4: will always change, as you said, like there's no stable 1587 01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:20,439 Speaker 4: price level. It's always changing. And as you've said, like 1588 01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:22,920 Speaker 4: innovation also will change it a I will probably reduce 1589 01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:26,120 Speaker 4: the prices. It's a very deflationary force. But it's it's 1590 01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:27,479 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know how you feel about that, 1591 01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:29,559 Speaker 4: but it's a good force generally if it makes us 1592 01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:31,720 Speaker 4: more productive. Is that an issue or should we like 1593 01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:33,679 Speaker 4: not forbid like should we forbid any kind of other 1594 01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:36,240 Speaker 4: you know, innovation because it schools with prices. 1595 01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:37,479 Speaker 2: And I think one. 1596 01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:39,840 Speaker 1: Big differentiation right there that I was just thinking as 1597 01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:42,280 Speaker 1: you're talking, is that if it really came down to 1598 01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:45,720 Speaker 1: the free banks making loans, those banks don't want to 1599 01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:48,000 Speaker 1: go bust, we have to reintroduce the consequence so that 1600 01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:51,960 Speaker 1: means they're only most likely making the majority I say 1601 01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:55,040 Speaker 1: the majority of their loans would be product productivity. 1602 01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:56,800 Speaker 4: Loans, correct, because if they don't lend it to like 1603 01:11:56,800 --> 01:11:59,440 Speaker 4: a business that performs, then you investing badly. 1604 01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:00,840 Speaker 1: Right, And so what we one is we want to 1605 01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:03,680 Speaker 1: bring more goods and services into the market. And so 1606 01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:05,960 Speaker 1: if these banks are expanding the money supply, but they're 1607 01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:08,160 Speaker 1: expanding the goods and services faster, otherwise there's a lot 1608 01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:10,360 Speaker 1: of business and then we have a deflationary we get 1609 01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,519 Speaker 1: that money out. So if they're loaning money for productive 1610 01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:16,040 Speaker 1: use cases and we're expanding the goods and supplies, faster 1611 01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:17,719 Speaker 1: than the money supply. We're a good situation. The problem 1612 01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:21,320 Speaker 1: we're in today is the government that's creating thirty one 1613 01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:24,439 Speaker 1: trillion dollars worth of money and destroying all the wealth 1614 01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:25,719 Speaker 1: and goods and service at the same time. 1615 01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:27,160 Speaker 3: Very well said. 1616 01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:29,120 Speaker 4: And even if they if they don't do that, it 1617 01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:31,519 Speaker 4: means like a lot of money goes to them. And 1618 01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:34,479 Speaker 4: that will be by definition, as we know from Means's 1619 01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:38,080 Speaker 4: others fantastic book, mess socialism by definition will be invested 1620 01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,559 Speaker 4: inefficiently and not two ends that are actually productive for society. 1621 01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:45,439 Speaker 3: Of course, government can build bridges and can build the tanks. 1622 01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:46,320 Speaker 3: However they have. 1623 01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:49,400 Speaker 1: No higher private contractors to do that exactly. 1624 01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:50,680 Speaker 3: I mean, like I live close to d C. 1625 01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:52,840 Speaker 4: Unfortunately, there's a lot of people getting filthy witch on 1626 01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,599 Speaker 4: all of that stuff. But like, is that what society needs? 1627 01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:58,040 Speaker 4: I would say no, because it's not based on like 1628 01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:01,240 Speaker 4: the demand and supply of real p it make the 1629 01:13:01,240 --> 01:13:03,519 Speaker 4: best decisions with the information that they have in an 1630 01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,400 Speaker 4: uncertain world compared with like some high end this pie, 1631 01:13:06,479 --> 01:13:08,400 Speaker 4: like we need to increase like twenty percent more off 1632 01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:09,200 Speaker 4: the money supply, you know. 1633 01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:12,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I think we'll wrap it up with that 1634 01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:15,320 Speaker 1: we covered a lot of ground that was just I 1635 01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:17,000 Speaker 1: just I just wanted to ask those questions. Those are 1636 01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:19,560 Speaker 1: things I would normally be on your side of the conversation, 1637 01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:21,599 Speaker 1: and so I'm just trying to like, these these are 1638 01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:23,320 Speaker 1: challenges that people have brought to me, So I just 1639 01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:24,880 Speaker 1: wanted to kind of ask that to you. I'd like 1640 01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:27,280 Speaker 1: to take these opportunities to try to learn, right, I'm 1641 01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:29,720 Speaker 1: trying to learn as well. There's actually something breed Love 1642 01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:31,120 Speaker 1: helped me out with where a lot of times I 1643 01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:34,080 Speaker 1: was doing interviews trying to kind of serve you up 1644 01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:35,800 Speaker 1: softballs and let you kind of get your pitch out 1645 01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:37,559 Speaker 1: to the audience or what I thought the audience would want, 1646 01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:39,240 Speaker 1: and like I try to, like, man, I'm getting to 1647 01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:40,760 Speaker 1: sit down with you, like I should try to, like 1648 01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:44,439 Speaker 1: see what I can learn. So I appreciate that students 1649 01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:47,479 Speaker 1: of liberty, students students for liberty, where can people go 1650 01:13:47,479 --> 01:13:48,240 Speaker 1: to find more about that? 1651 01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:50,160 Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much, MOK. And I've also learned 1652 01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:51,720 Speaker 4: a lot and like some of the challenges I've not 1653 01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:53,479 Speaker 4: heard in a while. And as I've said, like I'm 1654 01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:55,960 Speaker 4: like thinking about business all day, I'm reading business books. Yeah, 1655 01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:57,519 Speaker 4: now you're bringing me back to like the world. That 1656 01:13:57,560 --> 01:13:59,680 Speaker 4: really made me excited about these ideas because they have 1657 01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:02,759 Speaker 4: changed my outlook in life and see like how society 1658 01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:05,000 Speaker 4: actually functions. Gave me like a different lens to look 1659 01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:07,240 Speaker 4: at the world. And that's beautiful that you're helping other 1660 01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:09,160 Speaker 4: people to see, like a little bit more clearly what's 1661 01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:09,680 Speaker 4: what's going on. 1662 01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:10,680 Speaker 3: And I appreciate you for that. 1663 01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:12,960 Speaker 4: But yeah, Students for Liberty can be found out students 1664 01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:16,400 Speaker 4: liberty dot org. If you're a student yourself, go go 1665 01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:18,280 Speaker 4: check out the resources that we have. We have a 1666 01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:21,280 Speaker 4: YouTube channel called Learn Liberty with over two and eighty 1667 01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:24,479 Speaker 4: five thousand subscribers, a bunch of videos interesting topics like 1668 01:14:24,479 --> 01:14:26,599 Speaker 4: the one one here. We should have you at some point, 1669 01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:29,800 Speaker 4: by the way, Yeah and yeah, otherwise, just check out 1670 01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:32,040 Speaker 4: my Twitter which is at wolf von La. 1671 01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:35,320 Speaker 1: What about one last thing, Maybe you have this on 1672 01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:38,160 Speaker 1: your website or part of your curriculum through this, through 1673 01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:41,080 Speaker 1: through through the program that you have. But I mean, 1674 01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:43,680 Speaker 1: I love these books and so I've read, you know, 1675 01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:46,920 Speaker 1: some of these books. Myself. Human Action is a book 1676 01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:49,280 Speaker 1: that everyone should probably read, but it's so friggin hard. 1677 01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:51,280 Speaker 4: And most people don't get past the first time page. 1678 01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:53,120 Speaker 4: It was just about epistemology and like you need to 1679 01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:54,840 Speaker 4: be like very philosophical to get and like. 1680 01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:57,240 Speaker 1: If we could just take that book and rewrite it 1681 01:14:57,280 --> 01:14:59,080 Speaker 1: in like a fifth grade level, because that's where most 1682 01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:00,519 Speaker 1: books are supposed to be and kind of like a 1683 01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:02,080 Speaker 1: fifth grade level, right, if we could just take that 1684 01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:06,040 Speaker 1: book and keep the concepts and the theory, but just 1685 01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:08,800 Speaker 1: because it was written one hundred years ago in a 1686 01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:11,799 Speaker 1: very academic way and they talked a lot more. 1687 01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:14,280 Speaker 3: Proper back, very Germanic, with like sentences that do this. 1688 01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:15,800 Speaker 1: Long, right, you know, if we can and I find 1689 01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:19,080 Speaker 1: myself having to reread a paragraph multiple times, it's the same. 1690 01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:21,599 Speaker 1: So if we can just like take that and rewrite 1691 01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:24,799 Speaker 1: it in like a fifth grade level. Are there books 1692 01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:28,120 Speaker 1: like that? I would would Could you point people to 1693 01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:28,599 Speaker 1: a few of those? 1694 01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,760 Speaker 4: Absolutely? I would say there's a few books that people 1695 01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:33,760 Speaker 4: should beat. It's all eye pencil. It's not like even 1696 01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:35,800 Speaker 4: the book, it's a booklet. Like that's one thing that 1697 01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:38,759 Speaker 4: everybody should read. Then The Use of Knowledge and Society 1698 01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:41,639 Speaker 4: by Hyek also like a short article you can also 1699 01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:43,320 Speaker 4: read very fast. What is it called the Use of 1700 01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:46,200 Speaker 4: Knowledge in Society? That is an article that he's written 1701 01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:48,479 Speaker 4: once he received the nobod price and he talks about 1702 01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:50,439 Speaker 4: like the price system and how it works, and it's 1703 01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:53,879 Speaker 4: it's pretty pretty remarkable. So those two articles go play 1704 01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:57,719 Speaker 4: very well together. Then I would say for an American 1705 01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:01,559 Speaker 4: audience specifically, but also international audience, What has Government Done 1706 01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:02,280 Speaker 4: to Our Money? 1707 01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:04,200 Speaker 3: By Murray Rothbart, you. 1708 01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:05,680 Speaker 4: Can if you want, you can skip the history a 1709 01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:07,720 Speaker 4: little bit and then just like focus on like what 1710 01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:09,320 Speaker 4: the system is that we have right now, and like 1711 01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:11,120 Speaker 4: why money is such an issue and like why you 1712 01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:14,679 Speaker 4: and I talk so much about it. I think those 1713 01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:17,240 Speaker 4: are all very good. I would also check out Frederick 1714 01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:18,320 Speaker 4: Bastiad The Law. 1715 01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:19,400 Speaker 2: It is the best. 1716 01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:22,840 Speaker 1: It's also very good to anime of the state, but 1717 01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:24,639 Speaker 1: we have to state money. 1718 01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:30,040 Speaker 3: But yeah, I think those are probably some of the 1719 01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:30,880 Speaker 3: very good books. 1720 01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:32,519 Speaker 4: And then when once you feel like a little bit 1721 01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,479 Speaker 4: more you know, adventurous, then go like into like more 1722 01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:40,680 Speaker 4: Messian books and they human action also, so it one 1723 01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:44,240 Speaker 4: not last thing. Law Legislation and Liberty by Frederick Hayek. 1724 01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:47,599 Speaker 4: Very good book that teaches you about the complex systems 1725 01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:51,679 Speaker 4: about law. What law, legislation and liberty. But people should 1726 01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:53,120 Speaker 4: only read the first two books. I mean, that's there 1727 01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:55,719 Speaker 4: they're split up into three books whatever because Chicago printed. 1728 01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:57,880 Speaker 4: It doesn't matter, only the first two, not the third one. 1729 01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:03,519 Speaker 1: When I read the Constitution of Liberty, which I think 1730 01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:05,960 Speaker 1: was his like seminal work, it was like his last 1731 01:17:05,960 --> 01:17:07,439 Speaker 1: book high and. 1732 01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:10,000 Speaker 4: I don't think it was his last, but I'm blanking 1733 01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:11,519 Speaker 4: on the name of his last book right now. 1734 01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:19,479 Speaker 1: It had nineteen hundred citations in nine languages. I'm like, 1735 01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:21,640 Speaker 1: no one will ever read in nine languages. I don't know, 1736 01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:24,599 Speaker 1: no one will ever be that smart again right now 1737 01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:27,320 Speaker 1: or distracted with TikTok or whatever, like, yeah, no one's 1738 01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:29,519 Speaker 1: going to be able to do nineteen hundred citations in 1739 01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:34,120 Speaker 1: nine languages. Amazing. Cool. Encourage some of your students to 1740 01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:35,880 Speaker 1: maybe take some of those Mesis books and we read them. 1741 01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:36,599 Speaker 2: I think the World of. 1742 01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:38,360 Speaker 4: Benefits, Oh yeah, so we should give a shout out. 1743 01:17:38,439 --> 01:17:39,639 Speaker 4: I don't know if you had him on the show, 1744 01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:44,679 Speaker 4: but Murphy, Bob Murphy wrote a few of these companions 1745 01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:47,200 Speaker 4: to missus Human Action much thinner, and you can read 1746 01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:49,000 Speaker 4: it by the side by side or just like that. 1747 01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:52,320 Speaker 4: And I think also, like, don't start with maybe Human Action, 1748 01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:56,920 Speaker 4: but start with Mary Rothbot's book Man Economy and State, yeah, 1749 01:17:56,960 --> 01:18:00,880 Speaker 4: which is an easy explanation of mesus human action. But 1750 01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:02,559 Speaker 4: like one book that we didn't mention, which is it's 1751 01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:04,360 Speaker 4: tough to read. But I think that's the most mind 1752 01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:07,240 Speaker 4: blowing of them all, at least for me to understand truly, 1753 01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:10,760 Speaker 4: like why we need to move away from government's means 1754 01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:13,920 Speaker 4: of socialism. Yeah, it's the Tour the Force, And like you, 1755 01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:15,360 Speaker 4: I had to like every time I went like a 1756 01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:16,720 Speaker 4: page that I had like on my chest, I had 1757 01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:18,360 Speaker 4: to just like think for ten minutes to try to 1758 01:18:18,439 --> 01:18:21,160 Speaker 4: understand whatever I was learning. But it tells you with 1759 01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:25,559 Speaker 4: such rigor and clarity about like why we cannot have 1760 01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:28,760 Speaker 4: a system that is just based on forced and it's 1761 01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:30,760 Speaker 4: like doesn't have price system, it doesn't have competition, which 1762 01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:32,240 Speaker 4: by definition is government. 1763 01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:34,400 Speaker 1: High ex road deserved Him has a couple of chapters 1764 01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:37,000 Speaker 1: that are pretty good on that as well. True, and 1765 01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:39,520 Speaker 1: then mesas dot org they have tons. 1766 01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:41,000 Speaker 2: Of good information on there. Certainlyybody know that. 1767 01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:43,519 Speaker 1: Cool? Well that was signed off, Thanks so much, Mark, 1768 01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:44,439 Speaker 1: Thank you all right,