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Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatarati this week Art and Oil.

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Speaker 1: A few weeks ago, I was in helsinkiper vacation, and

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Speaker 1: I stumbled across an exhibition by an artist named Munira

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Speaker 1: al Kadiri. The exhibition was titled Deep Fate, referring to

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Speaker 1: the origins of oil that come from deep inside the earth,

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Speaker 1: but also to how our fate is dependent on oil

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Speaker 1: and how we break away from our dependence on oil.

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Speaker 1: Munira is a Kuwaiti visual artist who was born in Senegal,

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Speaker 1: grew up in Kuwait, and studied art in Japan. She's

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Speaker 1: combined influences from all those cultures, but focused her attention

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Speaker 1: on the Gulf region and its intimate relationship to oil.

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Speaker 1: I was fascinated by the exhibition, partly also because she

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Speaker 1: made chemistry look interesting and beautiful and strange, which I

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Speaker 1: hadn't see before. So I wanted to have her on

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Speaker 1: the show and ask her how she thinks about the

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Speaker 1: inter relationship between art, climate, and fossil fuels. Monitra, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show.

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Speaker 2: Hello, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: A few weeks ago, I was in Helsinki for vacation

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Speaker 1: and I came across your exhibition in Kiasma, which is

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Speaker 1: one of the city's top contemporary art museums, and it

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Speaker 1: left a strong impression on me. And I'd like to

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Speaker 1: touch on the exhibition your work, how you came to

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Speaker 1: do what you do. But before we start, let me

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Speaker 1: ask you a big question, what, in your view is

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Speaker 1: the point of art?

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Speaker 2: Well? You know, I was underground in a tomb in

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Speaker 2: Egypt last year and I was looking at all these

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Speaker 2: paintings that are like five thousand years old, and it

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Speaker 2: felt like they were painted yesterday, you know, And I

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Speaker 2: was reminded in that moment why people make art. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's the only thing that remains. Everything else disappears, civilizations

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Speaker 2: came and go, but art is still there, you know,

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Speaker 2: thousands of years later. It's amazing, you know. And it's

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Speaker 2: almost like a time machine, you know, you can access

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Speaker 2: different worlds and times and maybe not, I mean, maybe

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Speaker 2: you won't know what it is anymore after, you know,

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Speaker 2: hundreds of years, but it's there now.

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Speaker 1: The Hells and Key exhibition itself features many years of

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Speaker 1: your work. It's called Deep Fate and oil extraction, Creation

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Speaker 1: and destruction are the themes that run through your work.

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Speaker 1: Could you tell us your story and why you ended

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Speaker 1: up working on art that is linked to oil extraction.

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Speaker 2: So I'm from Kuwait, which is a country that is

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Speaker 2: heavily dependent on oil revenue since I would say in

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifties, and as someone from there, I mean, growing

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Speaker 2: up in that place, you're kind of shielded from this subject.

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Speaker 2: You don't really realize or notice it's there except when

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Speaker 2: you go outside of it. But I lived through the

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Speaker 2: Gulf and Kuwait in nineteen ninety and ninety one as

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Speaker 2: a child, and it was primarily a war that started

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Speaker 2: because of oil, you know, and seven hundred oil wells

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Speaker 2: were on fire at the end of the war, and

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Speaker 2: we lived basically in an oil covered reality. I mean

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Speaker 2: it was raining black oil. Our house was black, this

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Speaker 2: earth was black, the sea was full of oil. And

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Speaker 2: I think that was the first time I actually saw

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Speaker 2: this stuff and I confronted it for the first time,

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Speaker 2: and since then it's never left my mind. It's always

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Speaker 2: I always think of it like almost like a genie

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Speaker 2: or an alien or a monster that has invaded our

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Speaker 2: world and refuses to leave.

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Speaker 1: You also lived in many parts of the world, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of your art is informed by the cultures

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Speaker 1: that you've lived in. Maybe let's explore them through some

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Speaker 1: of your art works. And perhaps the most relevant one

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Speaker 1: to start with, and when I found gripping when I

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Speaker 1: was in Helsinki in Kiasma, sitting on a bench looking

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Speaker 1: at a TV screen, was this piece called behind the Sun.

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Speaker 1: Could you describe what the work is?

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Speaker 2: So actually, the work is about that moment that I

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Speaker 2: just described. It's a collection of amateur videos of burning

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Speaker 2: oil from Kuwait from nineteen ninety one, and I really

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Speaker 2: wanted to revisit that moment in my life because it

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Speaker 2: really has shaped me as a person. Strangely enough, there

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Speaker 2: was a film by Werner Herzog right after the war

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Speaker 2: where he came to Kuwait and filmed the burning oil

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Speaker 2: called Lessons of Darkness, and he basically was filming it

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Speaker 2: from a helicopter with this very kind of extravagant kind

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Speaker 2: of Wagner soundtrack, and it's a docu fiction film, so

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Speaker 2: he would narrate these excerpts from the Bible about armageddon

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Speaker 2: and things like that and combine it with this footage.

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Speaker 2: You know, And as a child watching that film, I

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Speaker 2: didn't understand it. I almost thought, you know, why is

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Speaker 2: this German Man lying about our war, you know what's

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Speaker 2: going on here. I didn't understand the concept of docu fiction,

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Speaker 2: you know, But of course I grew older, and then

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Speaker 2: I went to art school and I saw all of

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Speaker 2: Wernherzog's films, and I love his work obviously, but there

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Speaker 2: was something in me whenever I watched that film that

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Speaker 2: turns back into a seven year old child who cannot

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Speaker 2: forgive him right. So I thought I should make my

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Speaker 2: own version of it, and something that is taken from

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Speaker 2: the ground with the kind of let's say, a cultural

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Speaker 2: context that fits the place, which is kind of you know,

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Speaker 2: Muslim Islamic culture. And so I combined these amateur videos

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Speaker 2: of the burning oil with excerpts from Islamic television programs

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Speaker 2: about the beauty of the divine and heaven and things

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Speaker 2: like this in nature. And I combined that actually with

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Speaker 2: those images because it's strange what we consider as sublime,

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Speaker 2: you know, as a kid seeing oil burning in front

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Speaker 2: of me, I was also mesmerized by it. You cannot help,

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Speaker 2: I think, as a person to be not amazed, even

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Speaker 2: by images of destruction that you see in front of you.

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Speaker 2: You know, it can be so overwhelming that it becomes

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Speaker 2: kind of a sublime image, and I wanted to revisit

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Speaker 2: that conundrum that I have. I don't really know how

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Speaker 2: to deal with it.

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Speaker 1: And it was also one of the first wars to

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Speaker 1: be live broadcast on TV. And you know, so many

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Speaker 1: people saw the images of oil wells being lit on

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Speaker 1: this vast landscape, flat land with big plumes of black

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Speaker 1: So I was stunted to learn that you met some

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Speaker 1: people who claimed that the images of oil soaked animals

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Speaker 1: was fake, was war propaganda. And this is only from

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. You know, it's sort of odd to say

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Speaker 1: now thirty five years on, but today reality is even

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Speaker 1: getting harder to hold onto. We live in times when

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Speaker 1: heart roots are being questioned, when many are twisting facts

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Speaker 1: to benefit themselves or turning them into complete fiction. When

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Speaker 1: you were faced with this kind of mistelling of history,

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Speaker 1: you created art. Could you describe the work titled Onus?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so Onness is actually a work that it took

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Speaker 2: many years actually to make either of these works. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's like a long kind of process of digesting what

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Speaker 2: happened to me in my life. And when I was

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Speaker 2: an art student, actually studied in Japan, in Tokyo, and

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Speaker 2: we were in this advertising class, it's art school, and

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Speaker 2: professor just pulled out a picture of an oil covered

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Speaker 2: bird from Kuwait, from the war, and he proceeded on

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Speaker 2: this tirade of explaining to us how this photo was

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Speaker 2: staged and that this ever happened. And you know, because

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Speaker 2: I was so shocked, you know, and my peers are

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Speaker 2: all believing him, right, they have no other point of reference.

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Speaker 2: But I was so shocked that I really lost my

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Speaker 2: ability to say anything. But the sense of shock never

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Speaker 2: never left me. And I had thought about it for

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Speaker 2: so many years, that you know, over distances and time

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Speaker 2: and images and spaces and media, and that reality can

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Speaker 2: be so distorted, you know that, you know, And also

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Speaker 2: that sometimes images are so harsh and difficult to digest

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Speaker 2: that people don't want to believe them, right, There's also

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Speaker 2: this desire of not wanting to know, not wanting to

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Speaker 2: believe that this horrible thing happened. And so I turned

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Speaker 2: this experience into a work called Onus, which is installation

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Speaker 2: of about fifty glass birds covered in oil. I mean,

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Speaker 2: they look like they're covered in but they're made of glass,

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Speaker 2: black glass. And the idea was to make them out

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Speaker 2: of glass, is to also think about you know, I

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Speaker 2: wanted to revisit that moment and recreate it in the

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Speaker 2: sculptural form, but at the same time, I wanted to

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Speaker 2: show that human memory is also very fragile, like glass

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Speaker 2: and malleable. If someone tells you many times over that

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Speaker 2: the thing you actually saw and experienced is not real,

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Speaker 2: you also start to doubt it, you know. And that's

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Speaker 2: the amazing part about brainwashing and human persuasion, and.

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Speaker 1: People have used it so effectively, and I think we're

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Speaker 1: getting tools in the modern world that are making it

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Speaker 1: easier and easier to be effective at creating your own reality.

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Speaker 1: What do you think people can learn from art about

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Speaker 1: living in a world where this tide of misinformation is

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Speaker 1: only likely to rise.

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Speaker 2: I mean, art is really like a reflection of the times, right,

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Speaker 2: we really live in this post truth world, and I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of art also reflects that idea that

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Speaker 2: you know. But my work is I mean, it has

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Speaker 2: a lot of political and let's say, ecological subjects, but

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Speaker 2: at the same time I see it as an exercise

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Speaker 2: and emotion. Right, the post truth world that we do

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Speaker 2: live in is this kind of everybody's pulling your heart

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Speaker 2: strings in different directions. It's really about emotions, you know,

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Speaker 2: and how to manipulate emotions. It's just interesting to me

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Speaker 2: how art also is doing that for people, right, We

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Speaker 2: also try to guide people into seeing different aspects of life.

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Speaker 2: But I think it's important. I mean, not all art

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Speaker 2: is moral as well, right, there's also artists who want

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Speaker 2: to deceive and cheat, and this is fine. It's the

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Speaker 2: same as any other kind of human endeavor, right.

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Speaker 1: Well, one of the things in that Helsinki exhibition that

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Speaker 1: also surprised me. You know, I've covered climate and energy

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Speaker 1: for a while, and oil is something that I have

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Speaker 1: to cover because there is no way to escape it

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Speaker 1: when you're covering these topics. And yet until I saw

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Speaker 1: your work, I actually hadn't seen what an oil drilling

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Speaker 1: equipment looks like and how odd and strange and beautiful

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Speaker 1: it is. Could you describe the work title Choreography of

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Speaker 1: Alien Technology.

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Speaker 2: Choreography of Alien Technology is really a continuation of the

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Speaker 2: series of works I've worked on for the past ten years,

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Speaker 2: let's say, around this idea of the inner mechanics of

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Speaker 2: the oil industry. Because as someone from Kuwait, I was

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Speaker 2: just shocked that I don't know anything about how this

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Speaker 2: industry operates, right, It's the source, the only source of

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Speaker 2: our wealth, and nobody knows how it functions, you know,

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Speaker 2: And so I was amazed at the time when I

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Speaker 2: was researching these things and I discovered oil drills. I

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Speaker 2: mean they look like phantasmogorical like marine creatures covered in

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Speaker 2: gold and diamonds to be able to drill better. And

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Speaker 2: I was really amazed, first from their shapes and forms,

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Speaker 2: but also strangely enough, their beauty. You know, there is

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Speaker 2: something quite beautiful about them, and so I started recreating

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Speaker 2: them in different scales, but also I would cover them

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Speaker 2: in this iridescent color scheme, which I took from the

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Speaker 2: color of oil itself. Actually, if you spill it on

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Speaker 2: the side of the road, it has this beautiful rainbow

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Speaker 2: sheene to it. But I also tried to link that

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Speaker 2: to the history before oil in Kuwait, which according to

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Speaker 2: some accounts was pearl diving for about two thousand years,

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Speaker 2: and pearls also have this very beautiful, shimmering kind of

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Speaker 2: doescent color. So my whole yeah, basically practice started revolving

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Speaker 2: around this color as the color of history. It's the

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Speaker 2: color of the past, the color of the present, which

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Speaker 2: is oil but also maybe after oil it will become

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Speaker 2: something else. So the idea is that this trickery that

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Speaker 2: this iridescence causes, because you can never see the same

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Speaker 2: color twice, is really kind of integral to my practice,

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Speaker 2: And so I make these giant drills as well that

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Speaker 2: rotate and also levitate in space. Instead of drilling the ground,

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Speaker 2: they're kind of drilling the air or the sky, and

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Speaker 2: they have these very magical colors. I mean, the idea

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Speaker 2: is that they are also a self portrait. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I feel I am a freak of this generation, which

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Speaker 2: is the post oil generation in the Gulf, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's going to last very long. So I

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Speaker 2: am also kind of eulogizing it, memorializing it through these

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Speaker 2: forms in a way that maybe one hundred years from now,

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Speaker 2: when oil is obsolete as a source of fuel, that

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Speaker 2: people will kind of find these works and think that, oh,

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Speaker 2: this time was quite freakish. Interesting.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm a chemist and I've looked at molecules for

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Speaker 1: many years trying to get a PhD. And until I

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Speaker 1: saw your work where you'd use some of these irridescent

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Speaker 1: colors and ways to make molecules look interesting. Molecules that

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Speaker 1: come from oil. I was surprised that you could make

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Speaker 1: something that you know, people work on every day, is

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Speaker 1: so practical, is so necessary, but also be beautiful and

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Speaker 1: something that you can reflect on. You've also used technologies

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Speaker 1: that are being developed by the oil industry, you know,

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Speaker 1: not just molecules, to try and make artwork out of it.

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Speaker 1: Could you tell us about seismic songs?

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Speaker 2: So this was a very interesting work. Basically, it's a

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Speaker 2: purple dinosaur, a t rex, the microphone sitting on the

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Speaker 2: floor in front of a screen where you can see

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Speaker 2: almost like a karaoke text, and there is a sound.

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Speaker 2: So the dinosaur is actually singing to the karaoke and

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Speaker 2: he is singing in auto tune, which is this vocal

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Speaker 2: effect that was developed by an oil engineer, because I

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Speaker 2: think in the oil industry they use a lot of

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Speaker 2: very advanced acoustic technology right to kind of find deposits

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Speaker 2: of oil all of this. And so this engineer apparently

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Speaker 2: was listening to the radio in the nineties and heard

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Speaker 2: that the singer was out of tune and thought that

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Speaker 2: he could use his know how to develop a software

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Speaker 2: to tune her voice, and he did. He managed to

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Speaker 2: do it, and he patented the technology, and to this day,

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Speaker 2: you know, autotune is a subscription and you know, all

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Speaker 2: of the music industry uses it. So I thought it

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Speaker 2: would be interesting to try to imagine that process in

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Speaker 2: which they say oil is remnants of you know, ancient organism,

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Speaker 2: maybe dinosaurs. I mean, maybe that's a myth, but I imagine,

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Speaker 2: you know, the dinosaur singing back to the engineer, you know,

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Speaker 2: please find me, find me deep in the earth, you know,

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Speaker 2: and singing this inn auto tune. So it's a very

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Speaker 2: comical work, but at the same time there's something very

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Speaker 2: tragic about it.

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Speaker 1: Join us after the break for more of my conversation

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Speaker 1: with Monira al Kadii. And while I have you, please

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Speaker 1: give Zero a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It

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Speaker 1: helps new listeners find the show. Recently, Maracent wrote love

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Speaker 1: this podcast, smart, full of info, positive and focused on solutions.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Maracent. I want to talk to a little

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Speaker 1: wider implications from the work. So we are now once

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Speaker 1: again living through a time of war, act to it,

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Speaker 1: massive political upheaval even in peaceful countries, there's the destabilizing

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Speaker 1: impacts from the harms of climate change. It's a lot

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Speaker 1: to take in twenty twenty five, and there are some

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Speaker 1: people who are trying to develop a response, and I

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Speaker 1: want to pull one of them, which is a strand

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Speaker 1: of thinking that's taking place in some parts of the left,

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Speaker 1: especially the American left, that's been labeled as abundance. The

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Speaker 1: thinking from their side is that what the left in

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Speaker 1: the past has done, in part to fight environmental impacts,

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Speaker 1: has made it impossible to build an impossible to enable

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Speaker 1: all people to enjoy the benefits that come from this

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Speaker 1: world of abundance. You've lived in Kuwait, you have seen

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Speaker 1: the wider Middle East and how it has experienced abundance

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Speaker 1: in a very short period through the flood of oil

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Speaker 1: and the wealth that came with it. What do you

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Speaker 1: think are the lessons from your exploration of abundance that

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Speaker 1: others should be aware of.

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Speaker 2: I made a work in twenty twenty called Holy Quarter,

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Speaker 2: which is a video of solutional glass sculptures, and so

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Speaker 2: it's actually based on a story about an explorer, British

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Speaker 2: explorer who went to the desert in the nineteen thirties

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Speaker 2: looking for the Atlantis of the sands, and all he

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Speaker 2: could find was these little black beads on the ground,

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Speaker 2: and the people there told him that they were pearl

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Speaker 2: necklaces of ladies that used to live in this amazing kingdom,

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Speaker 2: but God punished them because of their decadence, and all

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Speaker 2: of the city burned down and all was left was

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Speaker 2: their pearls, their black pearls. And he didn't believe them, obviously,

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Speaker 2: and took it back with him to the British Museum

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Speaker 2: and discovered that these were actually meteorites from outer space.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was such an interesting story, you know,

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Speaker 2: this idea of I mean, it's also a Quranic legend

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Speaker 2: about a people that were two decadent and then they

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Speaker 2: will be punished. That's a little bit. I think what

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Speaker 2: Kuwait went through after the war in nineteen ninety was

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Speaker 2: that a lot of people suddenly became very conservative, very religious,

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Speaker 2: because they believed that we were too ambitious and too

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Speaker 2: flashy and too wealthy, that you know, divine punishment came

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Speaker 2: to us. You know. I think this kind of thinking

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Speaker 2: is very ancient, Actually it's not new. People have this

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Speaker 2: idea that if you know, if you abuse your wealth

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Speaker 2: and your power, that at some point you will be punished.

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Speaker 2: Is it a divine punishment? Is it an earthly punishment.

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Speaker 2: I also feel, you know, our relationship to nature is

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Speaker 2: very much like this, like we are abusing it so

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Speaker 2: much to a point that it will become like a

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Speaker 2: ghost in the future that will haunt us forever. You know.

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Speaker 2: It's not a divine punishment. It's more like a For me,

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Speaker 2: it's almost like a horror film. You know that we

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Speaker 2: cannot escape. You know that it's a zombie that will

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Speaker 2: come back and cause the apocalypse. It's all of these

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Speaker 2: ideas that we have as humans. It's really like a

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Speaker 2: process of haunting, you know. And so I'm very interested

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Speaker 2: in this idea maybe of not abundance. I mean, my

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Speaker 2: work and my ideas as an artist, I don't really

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Speaker 2: think about kind of bettering the world. Right. What I'm

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Speaker 2: doing is I'm reflecting, I'm thinking about things, but I'm

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Speaker 2: also showing the status quo. You know. My work is

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Speaker 2: very much an exercise and also showing people the dystopia

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Speaker 2: that we live in. I mean, I wrote a thesis

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Speaker 2: called the Aesthetics of Sadness, which I also believe that

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Speaker 2: there is a way to find beauty and destruction even

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Speaker 2: though we cause it. You know. So I don't really

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Speaker 2: have this kind of activist bone in me. I'm really

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Speaker 2: a soothsayer, but in a very melancholic, very doomsday kind

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Speaker 2: of sense.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's come to sadness. The title of your PhD

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Speaker 1: thesis was the Esthetics of Sadness in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: And one of the themes that is impossible to escape

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Speaker 1: as somebody who thinks about climate change is the immense

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Speaker 1: sadness for all the hood in the world, for all

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Speaker 1: that's going to be lost, that's being lost. There are

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Speaker 1: people who are suffering from climate damage. Is they're losing

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Speaker 1: their land, they're losing their culture. They're countless species that

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Speaker 1: are going extinct, some even before we've discovered them. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk me through your exploration of sadness?

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Speaker 2: Human emotions is very varied, right, It's a whole spectrum,

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Speaker 2: and I feel like the kind of clinical way that

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Speaker 2: kind of the Western world, but especially capitalism, has defined

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Speaker 2: it is that it's a disease or it's not worth anything,

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Speaker 2: you know, But sadness has amazing ability to inform our lives.

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Speaker 2: It was called the noble emotion back in the day.

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Speaker 2: I think it also stems from the climate itself, of

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Speaker 2: the desert, you know, it's such a harsh place to live,

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Speaker 2: and so people would wallow in their misery but also

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Speaker 2: create beautiful art around that. And I think it's interesting

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Speaker 2: how climate also informs art making. But going to your point,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I recently made a very new actually video

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Speaker 2: film called Old Body of Mind, which I filmed in

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Speaker 2: Chittagong and Bangladesh on a beach where basically oil tankers

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Speaker 2: go to die. It's where they dumped the decommission disused

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Speaker 2: oil tankers. I mean that place, really, I mean it

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Speaker 2: looks like the end of the world. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: was so shocking to see. This is really the dark

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Speaker 2: underbelly that nobody wants to look at, nobody wants to

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Speaker 2: talk about. It's about the detritus, the leftovers of this

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Speaker 2: huge industry, right and how much destruction it has caused

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Speaker 2: to the natural environment, to cities, to you know, to

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Speaker 2: the people. I just find it so disturbing, and even

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Speaker 2: for me it was a discovery. I was like, how

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Speaker 2: many of these exist in the world. You know, It's

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Speaker 2: just amazing what we've managed to do and what we've

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Speaker 2: want to also cover up somehow from these activities. And

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Speaker 2: like I said, I really feel like oil is it's

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Speaker 2: a kind of monster that's taken over the world, and

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Speaker 2: we don't really know how to get rid of it.

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Speaker 2: I'm also not going to deny kind of my own

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Speaker 2: personal complicity in it. I think oil has revolutionized the

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Speaker 2: way we live in the modern world. We cannot deny

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Speaker 2: that right. But at the same time it's destroying us.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of a double edged sword. And how do

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Speaker 2: we reconcile these two states together. I really don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how to. I don't have any answers.

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Speaker 1: I'm just reflecting, just sticking on sadness. There's one aspect

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Speaker 1: of it which I think is exploring, which is recently

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Speaker 1: I read the nineteen thirty two novel Brave New World

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Speaker 1: by Aldus Huxley, and in it he describes this far

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Speaker 1: future where there's a world state and a global society

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Speaker 1: that has a strict hierarchy, and that hierarchy is maintained

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Speaker 1: by a huge amount of conditioning that is given to

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Speaker 1: different costs as they grow up. Everybody is happy and

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Speaker 1: the world is completely stable, and when there is any

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Speaker 1: amount of unhappiness or discomfort, people are given a drug

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Speaker 1: called soma and they are happy again. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: labeled as a dystopia, but so much of our reality today,

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Speaker 1: nearly one hundred years on, is that. You know, people

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Speaker 1: have been conditioned to run away from sadness, to find

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Speaker 1: dopamine hits in scrolling social media, in getting their heart notifications.

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Speaker 1: What do you think we are missing when we run

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Speaker 1: away from sadness.

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Speaker 2: I think we are repressing a side of our minds. Right,

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Speaker 2: it's there, it doesn't disappear. It's part of our human experience.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we have to find a way to

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Speaker 2: enrich ourselves with it. It's not a it's not wrong,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's not a negative thing. This is the thing.

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Speaker 2: It's this is what I feel like. For example, in

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Speaker 2: the Arabian world, but also in Iran and Turkey, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of places where this is seen as a

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Speaker 2: beautiful experience. It's it's romantic, it's it's beautiful, it's melancholic.

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Speaker 2: It's also very much I think part of the religion

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Speaker 2: as well. I think religious rituals and how people use

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Speaker 2: it to have cathartic experiences. You know, I don't think

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Speaker 2: the way we deal with it in our realities is

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Speaker 2: very superficial and it doesn't help a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think people need to find solace in

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Speaker 2: it somehow.

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Speaker 1: There's also climate activism that has come to art. You know.

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Speaker 1: There have been protests, things like throwing soup on paintings

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Speaker 1: of huge repute that have then drawn attention to the

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Speaker 1: climate crisis, to the work that the activists do. What

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Speaker 1: do you think about the effectiveness of tactics like these.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if it's effective. I feel

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Speaker 2: like there is this part of society that views art

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Speaker 2: as a decadent activity in itself, you know, that it's

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Speaker 2: it's an expression of excess of wealth, of almost evil

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Speaker 2: and finding that the existence of art itself is is

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Speaker 2: a moral activity, you know, And I find that a

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Speaker 2: bit obviously problematic being an artist myself. But I do

432
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: think that, you know, the way that so much value

433
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: has been attributed to art in terms of monetary value,

434
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 2: is a detriment to everyone. Before I think the nineteen seventies,

435
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: there was no art that was worth this kind of money, right.

436
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 2: It just it's almost became something like the stock market,

437
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 2: you know. I mean a few years ago we also

438
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: had artists making NFTs that were basically like stocks. You know,

439
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: for me, That was a very strange moment because people

440
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: kept asking me to do that, and I was like,

441
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: I'm not a stockbroker. I'm not doing this. You know.

442
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: It's very interesting how, you know, people kind of associate

443
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 2: art with all of these societal problems that they're having. Right,

444
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: But as I said at the beginning of our conversation,

445
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: you know, art outlives everybody, and you know, and nobody

446
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 2: will know why we made these things when we did

447
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 2: or and and you know, if the same artists or

448
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: the same artworks are even important, like fifty years from

449
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: now right, who knows, you know. So for me, it's

450
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: it's it's interesting. I mean, I'm trying to bring into

451
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: the museum these quests sense about climate change in oil

452
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: and petrochemicals that maybe the activists are trying to bring

453
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: with soup. You know, I'm just doing it in a

454
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 2: different way.

455
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think some of your work also speaks to

456
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: how art can be inclusive. I heard a story of

457
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: yours where you describe your grandfather and how he used

458
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: to sing on boats that went out pearl fishing in Kuwait,

459
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: and he was a singer and he was making art

460
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 1: to make the work, which is tough and hard and

461
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: painful easier, and that he never sang those songs at

462
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: home because that art was for a certain purpose and

463
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: it wasn't decadence. It was for being able to survive

464
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: in that time. But coming back to art and climate activism,

465
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: another aspect that has come up is that many of

466
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: the museums around the world are funded by forsl fuel companies.

467
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: Have you declined commissions or exhibitions or invitations as a

468
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: result of that.

469
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: Not at all. I actually find it very interesting. It's

470
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 2: kind of going into the belly of the beasts, you

471
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: know that if they are funding this work that disturbs them.

472
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 2: I find it really something to behold, you know. And

473
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: it's happened many times in my career. Actually sometimes I

474
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,719
Speaker 2: didn't even know and then I get there and then

475
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 2: this museum is actually owned by oil conglomerate. I didn't

476
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: even know this, you know. And there was a lot

477
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: of raised eyebrows at the exhibition, you know, and we

478
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: even had like some you know, electrical problems, and I

479
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 2: was wondering, like, are the oil gods mad at me?

480
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: I'm from Kuwait, you know. I'm making work about, let's say,

481
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: the end of oil in a country that is, you know,

482
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: would not be able to survive without it in its

483
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 2: current form, right, So in a way, it's an act

484
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: of self harm. You know, I am trying to predict

485
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 2: the collapse of my own It's not a nice predicament

486
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 2: to be in, but I think it's inevitable, and I

487
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: try to show people there through these drill bits or

488
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: you know sci fi visions of oil refinery or you know,

489
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: beach in Bangladesh, that you know this is coming, you

490
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: know this collapse is coming, you know, and how what

491
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: parts of our culture and our being and our nation

492
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: will survive? You know? And they don't really want to

493
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 2: confront this, but that's where I come from, so I've

494
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 2: never shied away from it because it's it's self defeating. Really.

495
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: There's also a flip side to this, which is we

496
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: are living through a time when freedoms are being curtailed,

497
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: especially on things you can do. And say, have you

498
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: faced censure in doing any of your work?

499
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, many, many, many times. And obviously I come

500
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: from a non democratic society, so I'm very used to it.

501
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: I think it's mostly in democratic societies these days that

502
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 2: people are finding this to be new and strange and weird,

503
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: and they're trying to figure out strategies around it, right,

504
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 2: But for me, I have worked strategies around this all

505
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: my life. You know, this kind of mental gymnastics that

506
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: I play with my work. Is the work really about

507
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: this or about that? Oh? I don't know. I can't

508
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: tell you. You know, it's a strategy I've been. I'm

509
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: used to, so it's almost like I can. I think

510
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: I can teach other artists and thinkers abroad, like what

511
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: to do in the setting. You know, it's very weird

512
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: a situation to be in, but I'm very used to it.

513
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: Are there quick lessons you can give people? Because I

514
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: feel people would want to know what are the tricks

515
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: that you can use?

516
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's always good to have secrets.

517
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: You know, as an artist, I make a lot of

518
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: work and I don't tell everybody what it's really about.

519
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: And it's fine that you know that there are mysteries

520
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: and secrets that other people cannot know. But some people

521
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: actually guess, right, They guess this work is about this,

522
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: And I tell them, well, you know, that's your guess,

523
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: and sometimes the guess is correct. So I do want

524
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: them to kind of you know, think that maybe this

525
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: is about this subject, but they don't have any proof.

526
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining the show Zero.

527
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,239
Speaker 1: This podcast is usually about me asking questions so that

528
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: people can give us answers and solutions. But your work

529
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: raises more problems and questions than it answers. And you're

530
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: proud of that. And I am glad that you were

531
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: able to come on the show and give us a

532
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: taste of what it is like to work on what

533
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: is a topic of our times, a topic that's going

534
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: to be relevant for a lot of time. And I

535
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: hope people go and explore your work wherever they can

536
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: see it in the world or on your website, which

537
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: we will link in the show notes.

538
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 2: Thank you, Manira, Thank you so much for having me.

539
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Zero. If you're interested in

540
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: seeing more of Manira's work, we've put a link in

541
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: the show notes. She's exhibiting in Berlin from now until

542
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: August twenty twenty six. Now for the sound of the week.

543
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: That is the sound of an oil. Well up close, gross,

544
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: isn't it. If you like this episode, please take a

545
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts

546
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or with

547
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: someone who loves Auto tuned. This episode was produced by

548
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: Oscar boyd Our. Theme music is composed by wonder Lee.

549
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Eleanor Harrison, Dungate, Samarsadi, Mosses Andim and

550
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: Sharon chan I am Akshatrati Back soon