1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio. A few artists come close to the 3 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: prolific accomplishments and influence on future generations. As my guest today, singer, songwriter, 4 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: multi instrumentalist and producer Todd Rundgren. Following his work in 5 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: the band Naz, Rundgren win solo and received widespread acclaim 6 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: with his nineteen seventy two double album Something Anything. Rundgren wrote, 7 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: produced and played almost every instrument on the album. It 8 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: landed him a top ten hit with Hello, It's Me 9 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: and features this track I Saw the Light. Something Anything 10 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: brought Rundgren such commercial success that in its wake, he 11 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: abandoned conventional pop music to push the boundaries of his creativity. 12 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: The resulting album, A Wizard a True Star, was influenced 13 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: by soul, jazz, funk, and various psychedelics. The album established 14 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: Rundgren as a pioneer of prog rock and electronic music. 15 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: Todd Rundgren continued to explore musical styles in his numerous 16 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: solo releases and with his band Utopia. He was also 17 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: innovative behind the scenes with computer technology and as a 18 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: prominent producer for bands like XTC, The New York Dolls, 19 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: and Meatloaf. I sort of backed into producing. It was 20 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: an unusual situation, and I started very and I had 21 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: a band in Philadelphia and we got signed when I 22 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: was like nineteen years old. I was very much into 23 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: like what goes into making records, and we thought that 24 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: English producers were better than American producers. We really didn't 25 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: know what a producer did, and we thought he was 26 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: responsible mostly for the sound, misunderstanding that the engineer is 27 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: responsible for the sound. The producer, well American producer, particularly 28 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: in those days, was not necessarily a creative contributor to 29 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: the process. He was there to make sure that the 30 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: session didn't go over budget, you know. And in the 31 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: old days, pre Beatles, let's say, people didn't always write 32 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 1: their own material and they didn't arrange their own materials. 33 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: So the producer's job was to hire a songwriter, and 34 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: hire an arranger, and hire a contractor to get all 35 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: the musicians in there, and then to make sure that 36 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: the session didn't run long. That was his biggest responsibility. 37 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: And as it turned out, that's completely different from the 38 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: role that George Martin played. For instance, in the making 39 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: of the Beatles records. He was a musical contributor. He 40 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: had an opinion about what they did. Sometimes he even 41 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: played on their records. So it was first of all 42 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: kind of like a readjustment in my head about what 43 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: a producer was. And we hired a guy who we 44 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: thought made good sounding records for our first records, and 45 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: we didn't like the mix he made. So that was 46 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: the first time I put my hands on a mixing 47 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: console to remix our first record with this Money or NAS. 48 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: This was NAS Now Money was my high school band. 49 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: We never got a contract or anything, but NAS. The 50 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: NAS was supposed to be like the next Monkeys, or 51 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: at least in the minds of the people who signed us. 52 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: You know, we were supposed to be a manufactured product. 53 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: We were on the cover of sixteen magazine before we 54 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: had ever made a record, so there was so much 55 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: hype involved, and that was one reason why the bandily 56 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: lasted like eighteen months. And then I found myself on 57 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: the street and the only skill that I had at 58 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: that point, aside from playing and writing music, was that 59 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: I had put my hands on a mixing console. And ironically, 60 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: the partner of the manager of the Naz who had 61 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: departed and gone to work for Albert Grossman. Albert Grossman 62 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: is not a household name nowadays, but back in those 63 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: days he was the world's most pre eminent manager. He 64 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: managed Bob Dylan, he managed the band, He managed Janis Joplin, 65 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: and they needed somebody to take his old roster of 66 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: folk ax and modernize them. Some such as while such 67 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 1: as Ian and Sold the Uh and James Cotton. But 68 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: the first project that I got put on was an 69 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: artist called Jesse Winchester, and he was a conscientious objector 70 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: who lived in Canada from whence the band came and 71 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: so I got as the engineer that record, and Robbie 72 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: Robertson was the producer of the record, and they liked 73 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 1: what I did so much that they hired me for 74 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: what was the band's arguably their biggest album, Stage right. 75 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: And that's where I really cut my teeth, learning to 76 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: engineer serious records. Not really a producer at that point, 77 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: I was more of an engineer, but that became my forte. 78 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: I didn't need an engineer to do a recording project. 79 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: I can sit behind the desk and worked the knobs 80 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: and dials and all that stuff and also contribute musically 81 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: to what was going on. Did someone teach you? Did 82 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: you have a mentor this your self taught? No, I 83 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: have no fear of technology. Put it that way, you know. 84 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: So when I was sitting in for to this sea 85 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: of knobs and buttons, I thought, Okay, I'll touch this 86 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: one and I'll touch that one, and I'm gonna touch 87 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: every one of them. What does this do? Yeah? What 88 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: does this do? And then you turn it around and 89 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 1: you hear, oh, it changes to sound this way. And 90 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: then there are some other things you have to learn, 91 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: like mike placement. That's a different skill, and that evolved 92 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: a little bit more over time, figuring out exactly especially 93 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: drums and things like that, where do you put a 94 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: mike to get the best snare drum sound? That sort 95 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: of thing. And I eventually learned that and Stage Fright 96 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,239 Speaker 1: was something of a breakthrough. And then I did Bad 97 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: Finger and Graham Funk Railroad, and that's what really broke 98 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: me as a producer. Now, while you're producing other people 99 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: and you're heavily involved in that, you're making your own, 100 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: your own music. Is it a question of when someone 101 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: calls you? I mean, were you more of a purist 102 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: and you sat there and go, yeah, that's not my bag, 103 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: that music I don't really want to be a part 104 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: of that. Were you for hire, you want to come in, 105 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: and you weren't too fussy, like what was the metric? 106 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: By what you decided who you would and wouldn't work with. 107 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: As a producer and as a mixer, well, it's kind 108 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: of um the same as my choices as an artist. 109 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: I want to do the things that nobody else will 110 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: do or that nobody else can do as an artist. 111 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: Because I was a producer, I never had to worry 112 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: about my own music paying the rent, and so my 113 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: own music doesn't follow any particular path. I get an idea. Yeah, 114 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: I have complete freedom to do what I want as 115 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: an artist because I was leveraging those skills to produce 116 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: other people's records, and some of them were hysterically successful, 117 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, So I really didn't have to worry about 118 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: the money when I went into do my own stuff. 119 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: But then I eventually gained a reputation as a trouble shooter, 120 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: someone who would go into the studio, no nonsense, let's 121 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: get a record done here. That was one aspect of it. 122 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: The other aspect is that I would do artists that 123 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: nobody would touch like Meat Loaf. Remind people as to 124 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: why nobody would touch him back then because the songs 125 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: were all too long. None of them were that seemed 126 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: like singles to a record person. They were all very long. 127 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: He was a giant, fat, sweaty guy. He wasn't a 128 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: handsome you know. He wasn't John bon Jovi. No, he 129 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: was not a bon Jovie or any of those other 130 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: pretty boys and things like that. And the subject matter 131 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: had a certain kind of retro thing about it. It 132 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: was Brett in a w well. To my mind, there 133 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: was a weird combination of things. Jim Stimon, who wrote 134 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: all the material for Meat Loaf, he likened himself to 135 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: Richard Wagner. He thought he was the Wagner of rock 136 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: and roll. And I'm more characterized him as a Stephen 137 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: Foster of rock and roll because because he just keep 138 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: using these plain sevenths and things like that. You know, 139 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 1: there are lots and lots of course, but all of 140 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,719 Speaker 1: them are just playing triads and things like that, and 141 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: nothing harmonically super challenging about the kind of music that 142 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: Jim Stimon wrote. But it was grandiose. From a lyrical standpoint, 143 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell his story of the first time that 144 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: I saw the band and they have been turned down 145 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: by every producer. The band essentially was Jim Stimon on 146 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: the piano and meat Loaf and two background singers. They 147 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: performed the record for me, all of the music that 148 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: had been turned down by everybody else. And I'm thinking, 149 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: this is a spoof of Bruce Springsteen, and that's why 150 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: I have to do it right. This essentially is taking 151 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen's whole retro thing. I mean, he was on 152 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: the cover of Time magazine Savior of rock and Roll 153 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: and everything is about motorcycles and leather jack. As the 154 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: Switch plays, you know, it's rebel without a cause, and 155 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: I thought, you're saving rock and roll by going back 156 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: twenty years. And then when I saw a meat Load 157 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: performed that, I thought, this is a spoof of Bruce Springsteen. 158 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: And That's how I'm going to approach it. I'm gonna 159 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: take it totally seriously, but it's going to be way 160 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: more than Bruce ever attempted to do. You know, As 161 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: it turned out, that was the only way to think 162 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: about it, because otherwise the record never would have gotten made. 163 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: It was not my kind of music naturally. You know, well, 164 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: I didn't identify first of all with the rebel without 165 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: a cause thing, you know they called leather jacket, But 166 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: these are the guys who beat me up in school. 167 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: So I didn't no sympathy for that kind of that 168 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: kind of music. But also I'm an acolyte of the 169 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 1: Beatles and the arc of their career in which they 170 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: started out very simple imitation of their influences. Yeah, they 171 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: were covering their influences and stuff like that, and then 172 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: they kind of got pushed into the corner where they 173 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: had to write their own material. But they didn't stop there. 174 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: They started inventing genre, whole genres that other bands built 175 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: their careers on, and then it would abandoned them as 176 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: like eleanor Rigby classical rock. There was no such genre 177 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: before that, and then the whole bands would decide that 178 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: they were classical rock bands and orchestral backing for everything 179 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: they did, or you know, psychedelic rock. They invented that 180 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: with like Tomorrow Never Knows, and then whole bands like 181 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: Pink Floyd made a career out of it. But exactly, 182 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: and I want to get to that in your life, 183 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: the kind of I'm not going to say the transcendental, 184 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: but I don't want to lose line of this, the 185 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: line of this track, which is that when you leave Naz, 186 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 1: if you stopped working, you didn't want to work in 187 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: the musician, you wanted to be going too. Computer programming, well, 188 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: I was always into computers when I was very young. 189 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: As I say, I was a weedy child and I 190 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: tended to get picked on a lot. And when I 191 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: saw the movie Forbidden Planet with Robbie the robot, he 192 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: had special powers and he could produce anything you wanted. 193 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: And I needed like a best friend, robot protector. And 194 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: so when I was very young, I started trying to 195 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: figure out how I could build a robot. And once 196 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: you like figure out the mechanics of a robot, you 197 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: realize that that has to have a brain. And that's 198 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: when I started to learn about computers. This was always 199 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: like a sideline through my whole career because personal computers 200 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: didn't exist. Then you could learn about them, but you 201 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: couldn't have one, you know. Well, all through the seventies 202 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: that's when personal computers started coming in. There was a 203 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: Commodore pet, which actually looked like a cash register, and 204 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: the first apples that were like they look like little 205 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: TV sets. Yeah. I had one of the first computer 206 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: kids ever made, which was called an Outre, and the 207 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: only way you could communicate with it was through a 208 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: teletype machine that had a tape a paper tape reader 209 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: on the side of it. So I got into it 210 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: very early. And then Apple, the Apple Personal computer came out, 211 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: and that was kind of a real breakthrough because it 212 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: had a language built in. You turned it on and 213 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: it was ready to take commands from you. Uh. It 214 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: had waste easy ways to load software programs into it. 215 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: So I learned to program the computer, and eventually I 216 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: developed a program that Apple marketed in like the early 217 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: eighties because they had a piece of hardware called a 218 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: graphic tablet, fairly commonplace nowadays, but it's a big square 219 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: thing with a pen on a wire and you draw 220 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 1: on that thing and whatever you draw up here is 221 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: on the computer screen. And I first saw that at 222 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: a place called the New York Institute to Technology, where 223 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: all the people who eventually built Pixar and I l M. 224 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: That's where they were before then. It was ed Catmoll 225 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: and Alvi Ray Smith we're all working at New York 226 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: Institute of Technology, and their big new development was a 227 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: paint box program, you know, And so I got inspired 228 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: by that and I became serious programmer, and Apple marketed 229 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: the first program that I ever wrote, which was for 230 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: this graphics tablet that Apple was going to market. Unfortunately, 231 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: it failed it's FCC emissions tests, so the hardware never 232 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: came out. So nobody ever bought SUFFER because it was 233 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: no hardware to run it on. But in any case, 234 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: I got me into that realm. But right on top 235 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: of this, because you're so young, then, I mean, you 236 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: come out with something anything in two and this is 237 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: right on the heels of you going into computers and 238 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: you leave NAS and everything like did all of a 239 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: sudden success. Obviously success will be aligns a lot of things. 240 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: But you're considered a very very purest artist. You got 241 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: that whole vibe. You're a guy that had hit records, 242 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: and then you went and said, well I'm gonna go 243 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: over here, you know, I mean, you took off into 244 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: another direction, and you didn't necessarily kind of cardal your 245 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: audience or the industry like a lot of people do. 246 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: But when this happened, what changed for you when you 247 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: had success, big success and making music? Did anything change? Well? 248 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: My biggest success was after Something Anything came out, the 249 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: double album that was never intended to be a double album. 250 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: I just I got into this songwriting groove and they 251 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: were just coming out day and night. I was recording 252 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: and writing like sixteen hours a day, and I had 253 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: fallen into sort of a formula, a certain kind of 254 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: combination of things that you write about, you know, which 255 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: is usually like the Girl who Broke your Heart. And 256 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: after it was done, it was highly lauded and people 257 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: started referring to me as the male Carol King, which 258 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: is a high compliment. But also, I don't want to 259 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: be compared to other people. I don't want to be anything. Yeah, 260 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: I want to be you know, eventually people who would 261 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: be compared to me, but I don't want to be 262 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: compared to anything before. So the next record, which was 263 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: a Wizard of True Star, was not like any record 264 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: I had made, and maybe not like any record anybody 265 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: had ever made before, because I completely deconstructed the process. 266 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: And again, the only reason why I could do that 267 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: was because I was still producing records for other people. 268 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: When I didn't follow up something anything with another batch 269 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: of easily consumable pop songs. There was a complete freak 270 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: out at the record label. They say, how do we 271 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: sell this record compared to Life's record? The expectations are 272 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: in a completely other place, and I had no care 273 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: for that. I was still producing a lot of artists 274 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: for Bears Full Records, so they couldn't exactly kick me 275 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: off the label, you know, if they were forced to 276 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: indulge me. And that just turned out to be the 277 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: whole modus operandi. You know. I was the fly in 278 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: the ointment in some ways because I wouldn't stop making records, 279 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: and yet they couldn't figure out how to market them. 280 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: And eventually they got into a such a mindset that 281 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: they completely overlooked hits on some of my records. Musician 282 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: Todd Rundgren. If you love conversations with legendary singers, be 283 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: sure to check out my talk with another musical icon, 284 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: Darryl Hall. I'm zy man. I'm much busier now than 285 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 1: I was. In fact, I don't have time to make 286 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: a record. I've been trying to make a record, and 287 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: I have to do it in little dribs and drabs 288 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: and starts and stops to try and get into a 289 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: flow is really really hard. Was there a spot in 290 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: your career where you southern when you go this is 291 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: it man, we we this is the top. There was 292 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: a period of time where we did we are the world. 293 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: I reopened the Apollo Theater with the Temptations live aid 294 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: all within a month and a half, and I remember 295 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: thinking to myself, Okay, I I feel like I'm here 296 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: here the rest of my conversation with Darryl Hall at 297 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing dot org and find Darryl Hall and 298 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: Todd Rundgren on tour together this spring. After the Break, 299 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: Todd Rundgren demonstrates why he's one of the most insightful 300 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: and prescient artists in all of music, and discusses his 301 00:18:54,520 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: career as a psycho. Not m I'm Alec Baldwin and 302 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing? Okay, Okay? This is 303 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: Bang the Drum All Day, one of Todd Rundgren's biggest hits. 304 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: It's the seventh of nine tracks on album The ever 305 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: popular Tortured Artist Effect. The song was all but overlooked 306 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: by his record label. Bang the Drum All Day was 307 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: never released as a single, never occurred to him that 308 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: it was just one of my other another nutty thing 309 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: that I was doing. But the record promoted itself and 310 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: made itself. DJ started playing it every Friday during drive time, 311 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: and then somehow fans adopted it at sporting events anytime 312 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: somebody wanted to create a party atmosphere, you know, even 313 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: if it was like a movie like Ants. The song 314 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: was never in the movie, but they used it for 315 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: the trailer because it made the movie seem more fun. 316 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: I guess. I think first ice hockey games, and then 317 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: it became like the Green Bay Packers touchdown song, and 318 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: then it eventually became the Carnival Cruise Lines theme song, 319 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: for which I got paid handsomely until they started sinking 320 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: all those boats. And I have no idea where the 321 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: song came from. I mean, it's not like I sat 322 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: down and said I'm going to write this song. No, 323 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: I actually dreamed the song. Sometimes when you start working, 324 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: you know, and you get really embedded in the work, 325 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: it permeates your subconscious at the point you never get 326 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: away from it. And I was writing songs in my 327 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: sleep and this song just came to me. And wondering 328 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: for you when you were young because you go off 329 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: on a different path and only with utopian in terms 330 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 1: of the style of music. What was your rishikesh? I mean, 331 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: did you have a moment of drug experimentation and enlightenment 332 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: and whatever it was that when you were very young? Okay, 333 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: I'm trying to trying to tread lightly here, I'm tread lightly. 334 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: I gained a reputation of something of a psychonaut at 335 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: one point. I guess a Wizard of True Star helped 336 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: with that, and it was definitely there was some psychedelic 337 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: experiences that made me rethink music and what I wanted 338 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: to do, and a wizard or truth Star was a result. 339 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: But some time after that, somebody sent me a shoe 340 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: box full of peyote buttons and I was high for 341 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: a month. I would get up in the morning, I 342 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: would clean three pyote buttons and I have one for breakfast, lunch, 343 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: and dinner. And I was not straight for an entire month. 344 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: And I did rehearsals and gigs and wiring my studio. 345 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: While I was doing that, I know it was one 346 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: of the most amazing periods of my life. Does it 347 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 1: stop me? Do you stop for if someone else stops him? Button? 348 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: I ate all the payote. I ate all the peyote 349 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: and it was done. You know, he ate the Whitman 350 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: sampler of peyote that you were given. Yeah, take me 351 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: through if you can, you go into utopia. When I 352 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: was originally just a guitar player, I didn't have any confidence. 353 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: I didn't have the confidence to sing or front a band. 354 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: And you know, when I quit the band, and I 355 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: didn't want to put an out of the band together. 356 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,479 Speaker 1: I didn't understand the politics of it, you know, And 357 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: so I just went into production and I my first 358 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: album was a vanity project. I didn't plan to do 359 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: anything with it, and then accidentally had a hit single. 360 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: It was called we Gotta Get You a Woman. It 361 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: was off of my very first record, so I had 362 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: to rethink the idea of going out and performing. It 363 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: got top forty, I think, and that's when I had 364 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: to learn to perform. You know. I had you gotta 365 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: hit sing? Oh yeah, I go out and play and 366 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't sing twenty minutes without blowing my voice out. 367 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: Really yeah, and you never and you never thought about 368 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: getting trained for that at all. Well, it started out 369 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: as a mental thing. I never thought of myself as 370 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: a frontman, a gut person who would stand in front 371 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 1: of the band and sing. I was singing background vocals, 372 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: and I'd be happy with that. There was some things 373 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: I knew about singing. A lot I didn't know about singing, 374 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: most importantly the diaphram, and it took me a while 375 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: to sort of figure it out. And I think the 376 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: best education I ever got was from listening to a 377 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: Stevie Wonder record sign seal delivered. What they used to 378 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: do is compress his voice so much that you could 379 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: hear every breath he was taking, and you could hear 380 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: before he would sing a phrase, how we would do this, 381 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: you know, how his diaphragm would punch up into his 382 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: lungs to create the necessary pressure in order to sing 383 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: the song. The thing that never occurred to me. A 384 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: lot of people don't realize that it isn't about your throat. 385 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: It's about your diaphragm, your breath, how much breath you 386 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: can put behind it, trying to sing just with your throat, 387 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,959 Speaker 1: and you know you'll get twenty minutes out of it 388 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: and then it will die. And it took me a 389 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: long time to learn how to do that. I remember, 390 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: I think it was right around something anything because of 391 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: what that was also about when I first started driving 392 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: a car and I was in l A and I 393 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: would drive around the freeways screaming my ass off. I 394 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: would just scream for twenty thirty minutes at a time 395 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: while driving my car around. It missed to look pretty weird. 396 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: But eventually, through doing that constantly and applying that when 397 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 1: I was singing live, I built up my diaphragm to 398 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: the point now that it's like ridiculous. You know, if 399 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: you get that muscle in shape, you can sing forever. 400 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: I can sing for three hours a night if I 401 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: have to at the you know, at the very top 402 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: of my range, as long as I have the wind 403 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: for it. Now, when you form utopia and you decide 404 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: to go in that direction, is it an idea of 405 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: a direction you want to go in? Do you see 406 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: to yourself, here's a kind of music I want to 407 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: play now, and this is where my head is at 408 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: now in my writing, do you meet people that influence 409 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: How does utopia congio? How does that come together? As 410 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: I was progressing as a songwriter, I started losing touch 411 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: with the guitar because it's not as flexible a songwriting too. 412 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: As a piano was because the piano you have all 413 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: the notes and you've got ten fingers. You know, guitar 414 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: has only got six strings. You were trained piano player, No, 415 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,199 Speaker 1: I was never trained, But I began to write on 416 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: the piano, and it's a great songwriting tool. And I 417 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: started to think that I was losing all of the 418 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: effort I had put into trying to learn how to 419 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: play the guitar and be, you know, an effective guitar player. 420 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: I was losing that. So I thought, I have to 421 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: start a band just so I can play guitar more. 422 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: You know, I still have my own thing, which is 423 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: my song to my stuff, but I want to start 424 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: a group where where my principal role is playing guitar 425 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: and a lot of the guys that eventually became part 426 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: of Utopia. And also this is Utopia too, because there 427 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: was an original Utopia with me and Hunt and Tony Sales, 428 00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: SUPI Sales Kids that lasted for like, got to a 429 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: couple of months or something like that, and it was 430 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: really high concept, so high concept that we failed to 431 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: pull it off and that unit broke up. But then 432 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: decided I still needed to have a guitar oriented outlet, 433 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: and that's when we started Utopian and was a lot 434 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: of the people who have played on my records. A 435 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: lot of this revolves around the studio that we built 436 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: in New York called Secret Sound, which was that was 437 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 1: in It was like twenty six Street and maybe seventh 438 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 1: then it was right near the Grammercy Park Hotel. The 439 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: friend of mine, Moogie Klingman, he bought aloft and we said, 440 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: let's build a studio in it. It was like a 441 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: very unusual thing because most studios were commercial enterprises. You know, 442 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: it was expensive to build a studio, but I just 443 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: kept taking any money that I got and plowing it 444 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: back into you know, my projects and tools for my projects. 445 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: And so we built our own studio and that's the 446 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: very first thing to recorded there was a Wizard True Star, 447 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: and then it became our playpen. We would go in 448 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: there and just fiddle around right music, record little bits 449 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: of it, splice it together. Later there was nobody to 450 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: tell us what not to do, so we would do 451 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: anything that we could think of. And the first um 452 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: Utopia album we just sat around the studio throwing ideas 453 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: out on the floor and trying to turn them into songs. 454 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: And part of what makes it so interesting musically is 455 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: all it represents all the influences of each person, kind 456 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: of collected under a pro rock banner. But for me 457 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: that that time, if I thought about it, I could 458 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: come up with probably a lot of speculation about why 459 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: people were craving that music. I mean, music to me 460 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: either is or is not related to the culture and 461 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: the political spectrum. And you know, Kennedy is killed, and 462 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people obviously think that the 463 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: Beatles ascension is linked to that. We need something happy, 464 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: we need something sweet, we need those ballads. You know, 465 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: well before we get to expert texpert choking smokers. You know, 466 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: all of the kind of poetry and insanity of Lennon 467 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: and McCartney as they get older, wonderful insanity by the way. 468 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: But you know, in the beginning with like Love Me 469 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: Do and all those there's things. There's there's something about people, 470 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: what people need, and at that time in the seventies, 471 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: people really needed music to take them somewhere. They really 472 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: needed to have music. You mentioned before, Roger Waters and 473 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: those guys, I mean, you know they're being Floyd. I mean, man, 474 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,239 Speaker 1: when I went to college. Everybody was laying on the 475 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: floor with the biggest joint in their mouths you could 476 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,719 Speaker 1: possibly imagine, and with the headphones on, and they just 477 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: had to listen to that music to transport them. Did 478 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: you feel when you were making the music with Utopia 479 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: your audience wanted you to transport them somewhere? Well, you know, 480 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: I try to think of myself as an artist and 481 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: as a true artist. We've talked about me as a producer, 482 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: and as a producer, I have to be aware of 483 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: the way that the audience may respond to the project 484 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: that I'm responsible for. But when I'm making my own music, 485 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: you know, and when I feel like I'm in my 486 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: most artistic head, I'm not trying to manipulate people. I'm 487 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: not thinking about them. I'm thinking about me, you know. 488 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think, how can I make music that 489 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: will satisfy me? How can I make music that won't 490 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: be just simply a repetition of something someone else has 491 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: done already, Which is two challenges right there. To satisfy yourself, 492 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: you know, it's difficult enough. And that did not replicate 493 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: something that's already been done. And I guess when you're 494 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: talking about that my mind is going to a different place. 495 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: My mind is going to that place where music is 496 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: meant for that individual experience. It's like you say, you 497 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: may be in a dorm room where a bunch of 498 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: guys getting high, but the music doesn't have an effect 499 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: until you feel like you're alone with it. And the 500 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,479 Speaker 1: problem with music nowadays is it's like nobody's fault, you know, 501 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: like human evolution is not really any individual's fault. It's 502 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: part of our evolution. Part of it is the simple 503 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: hardware evolution. The fact that the way we listen to 504 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: music is not the way we used to listen to music. 505 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: If you wanted a quality time music experience, it used 506 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: to be you had to go home to do it, 507 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: you know, and listen to your own little Hi fi 508 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: and and and that's what we did. A record that 509 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: you were anticipating came out, and you sat in a 510 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: sweet spot between the speakers, and you put that record on. 511 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: You listed it from beginning to end. You unplug the phone. 512 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: You didn't let anybody just house. Back then, I had 513 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: one in my kids. It was a phone on the 514 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: kitchen wall, and that was in Yeah. But I mean 515 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: the dynamic was that it was you and the music, 516 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: and for you to really get your money's worth out 517 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: of it, you and the music had to get down 518 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: there alone and experience it together in a certain way. 519 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: And eventually we came up with portable music systems like 520 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: the Walkman and things like that. Suddenly it was not 521 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: a quality time experience anymore. But things have evolved so 522 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: far to the point that so called musicians aren't actually musicians. 523 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: Music is the wedge you use to get yourself into 524 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: the public consciousness. So you start out calling yourself a musician, 525 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: but essentially you're just a merchandizer. You're selling shoes, hats, 526 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: shirts and things like that. You know, it's actually become 527 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: a little bit more real in the sense that you're 528 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: not pretending that the music is anything more than self promotion. 529 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: There is no pretense about the music being actually more 530 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: important than people simply remembering your name. You know, It's 531 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: it's not like the oldest axiom of advertising todd run. 532 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this episode, don't keep it to yourself. 533 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: Tell a friend, and be sure to follow us on 534 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 535 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. You can also listen to all of 536 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: the music from this episode and more in a curated 537 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: playlist of my favorite pieces from Todd Rundgren. You'll find 538 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: a link to the playlist in the show notes of 539 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: this episode. When we return, Todd Rundgren tells us how 540 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: anthropology factors into his songwriting. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're 541 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:29,720 Speaker 1: listening to Here's the thing? Do you read the least time? 542 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: See five? Lie? I'd rather think of that instead, and 543 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:50,879 Speaker 1: maybe this is It wouldn't have made any difference from 544 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: Todd Rundgren's album Something Anything. Consumers have come to expect 545 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: the ease and accessibility that today's stream platforms give us 546 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: to an infinite musical catalog. Incredibly, Todd Rundgren had the 547 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: foresight to see where music technology was taking us, but 548 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: he was slightly ahead of his time. I am a 549 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: technologist and a theorist in some kind, and in the 550 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: early late eighties early nineties I started to gain some 551 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 1: awareness that technology was going to take music to other places. 552 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: I started thinking about other ways that music could be delivered, 553 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: and I came up with this concept called no World Order, 554 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: in which you could, as a listener, describe some parameters 555 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: about the music you want to hear, and then this 556 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: system would go out and find the music that satisfied 557 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: your criterion. So I did a demonstration of that. It 558 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: was called No World Order. It was released as a record, 559 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: and there were various computer versions as well, and you 560 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: could actually navigate the music if you had the right hardware. 561 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: And I got approached by Warner Full Service Network, which 562 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: was attempting to establish an interactive TV community in Orlando, Florida, 563 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: as a test thing, and we wanted to see whether 564 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: people wanted to have on demand music services. This is 565 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 1: when you still have to buy music on a CD. 566 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: So we went to all the major labels and said, 567 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: we're just experimenting with a community in or Lands in 568 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: Florida to see whether there is demand for music that's 569 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: delivered by some kind of criteria something like that designed 570 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: the whole system. Then went to the five major labels 571 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: at that point see whether they would put their music 572 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,919 Speaker 1: on servers so we could just experiment with it. All 573 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: five refused. They said, we can't even imagine this putting 574 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: music on servers just because beyond our comprehension, let alone 575 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: explaining it to all our artists and the retailers that 576 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: we have to deal with and stuff like that, and 577 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: every single one of them with refused two years later Napster, 578 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: and that was the beginning of the end because they 579 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: didn't see that music had to be on servers, and 580 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: that essentially collapsed what was the music business. And the 581 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: end result is now you don't sell music. Music is 582 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,280 Speaker 1: as I mentioned before, music is advertising for something else 583 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: that you're selling that people seem to perceive as more 584 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: valuable than the music, like a T shirt, like a 585 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: big puffy jacket like some sneakers, or something like that. 586 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: I mean, Kanye is bragging about the fact not that 587 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: he sold so much music, that he sold two million 588 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: dollars worth of his players that the music will be 589 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: on He's bragging about selling hardware, not music. And that's 590 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 1: kind of where music has outen to at this particular point. 591 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: It's just part of putting forward a personal brand, and 592 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: then once you have that brand, you sell anything and 593 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be music. Do world events ever 594 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: shape your music? Do they ever influence your music? I 595 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: write my music about human nature. My whole music is anthropological. 596 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out why people think the way 597 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 1: they think and why they do the things that they do, 598 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: and that covers everything. That pretty much covers it all. 599 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,760 Speaker 1: How would you say that the shoe box full of yeah, 600 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: the big baggy full the peyonte buttons, that was a 601 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: while ago. What do you do now to raise your consciousness? 602 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:44,919 Speaker 1: Are you into meditation? Like? What do you do now 603 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: to achieve a state where you feel comfortable? I moved 604 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: twenty five years ago to the Island of c and 605 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,240 Speaker 1: I live in heaven. You know, I hear you well listen. 606 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: I am a great, great admirer of your music and 607 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: your career and I don't know what it is, but 608 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: like I went back and listened to so much, so 609 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: much of your music, and it's that Utopia phase of 610 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: your career. I love that music. I love utopiae which 611 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 1: we know. It's beautiful music. It's it's, it's, it's it 612 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: was beautiful music then and it still is. You are 613 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: one of the great artists. You say you like to 614 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: call yourself an artist. Well, everybody I know when they 615 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: think about you, they think about what a great artist 616 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: you are, on the diversity of your sound and the 617 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: music you made. And thank you so much for taking 618 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: the time to talk to us. I appreciate it. Thank you. 619 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: My thanks to producer, songwriter and musician Todd Rundgren. I'll 620 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: leave you with Love is the answer from Utopia's album Oops, 621 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: Wrong Planet. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought 622 00:39:48,280 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: to you by my Heart Radio. I can't stay and 623 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:13,800 Speaker 1: more Ell, I've been from shore to short to shore. 624 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: Defends a short time to found it. But this a 625 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: easy way around day world shaming. Love is shut up, 626 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: so said scream Loving Lose. Why so we are all 627 00:40:52,600 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: us time, We're a poising girl away it's at work. 628 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: People turn their heads to work on time. Tell it, listen, 629 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: try tur