WEBVTT - March Jobs Report Preview, Biden’s Infrastructure Plan 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.400 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanibek. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.760 you the latest news from the world of business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.600 plus technology, politics, economics, all furnessing the power of Business 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.000 analyst in more than one twenty countries. You can download 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.200 Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.120 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.840 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio, or watch us on 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:34.760 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News Opening Day, major League Baseball 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.080 being rolled back, uh certainly here in New York with 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:39.720 the mats because of COVID nineteen protocols. New York Cities 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.120 Health Commissioner a warning residents to take precautions during the 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:45.720 Eastern passover holidays as the city's COVID nineteen cases remained 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.760 stubbornly high and more contagious variants or past them. And 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:53.280 then we talked about Fiser and Biontechs COVID nineteen vaccine 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.680 remaining more than effective after six months, according to some 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:01.200 data from a final stage trial released Uh. Today, We've 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.360 got a perfect voice to talk about it. Dr Amish Adalga. 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.880 He is an infectious disease physician Senior scholar at Johns 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.600 Hopkins Center for Health Security at the Bloomberg School of 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:13.160 Public Health, of course, supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, Founder, 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.800 Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg Philanthropies. Dr Dolga on the phone 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.520 from Pittsburgh. Dr Dalging, Nice to have you here with 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.560 Tim and myself. So much to talk about, but let's 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.560 start with Fiser and finding that six months out it 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.479 still seems to be working and keeping individuals safe. When 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.160 it comes to COVID nineteen, this feels pretty big. Yeah, 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:34.960 I think it is. It's good news, and I think 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:37.880 it's something that we all expected to see because most 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.039 vaccines do have durability that last, you know, a year, 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:42.680 or even more than a year if you think about 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.440 some some vaccines, like our Tetanish vaccines. It's just that 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.080 when you're doing all of this in the midst of 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.520 a pandemic, you're you don't have time to do the 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:54.360 natural history studies ahead of time to know when immunity 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:57.280 may wayne, when you might need a booster. So what's 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.320 going on now? Or these natural history studies, and I 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:01.440 suspect that nine months, will will hear that it works 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:03.160 well at nine months, and we'll hear that it works 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.880 well at twelve months. Uh, And I think that's that's 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.000 to be expected, and it makes it a lot. It 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.680 gives people a lot more certainty, especially as guidance starts 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:12.760 to change for what vaccinatee of people can do. So 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:14.720 Dr R dodges that changed the way you're thinking about 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.840 a potential booster, that people who get this vaccine might 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:21.640 need a booster at some point in the future. Yes, 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:23.639 I think it's too early to say when we might 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.720 need a booster. And remember we have different boosters for 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.160 different vaccines. So a technic shot you get your booster 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:31.560 every ten years, and there are other vaccines where you 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.360 might get a booster in a shorter period of time. So, 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:36.799 for example, you get one dose of the Beasels monshrou 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:39.079 Bella vaccine around twelve or fifteen months, and you get 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.519 another one around five years of age and then you're done. 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.400 So it's it's different, and it's really based on doing 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.799 those studies, watching antibodies, watching t cells, looking to see 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:50.440 do people get reinfected, and then you make a decision 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:52.480 on when a booster might be needed, but I think 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.360 we're likely not going to need a booster for at 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.600 least a year, and probably more than that. There's a 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:02.040 separate issue about variant updating the vaccine, which is a 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.919 different issue that sometimes gets conflated with the whole booster issue. 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:07.320 But I think it's too early to say. Hopefully it 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.639 won't be something that's an annual thing. Maybe it's biennial, 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.520 maybe every three years, every two years. We'll see. Well, 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:15.480 the Fiser bound tech vaccine is one of two m 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:18.080 R and A vaccines that has emergency use authorization here 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.200 in the United States. The other one comes from MODERNA. 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:22.760 It does feel like we're getting more data from Fiser 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:25.400 at this point. Are you seeing Maderna data out there 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:28.480 or should we think about this being a similar result 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:30.520 that we'd see from MODERNA. I mean, can we think 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:34.359 that way? I do think you can largely extrapolate what's 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:36.880 happening with the Fiser vaccine to the Maderna vaccine because 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.800 they are very similar to their identical technologies, was very 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.800 similar ingredients, So most things are going to apply to 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:44.560 both of them. But obviously we want to see the 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.080 modernity data as well, because these are two separate products 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.440 and there will be two separate recommendations that that could 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:53.240 could result if there are any discrepancies. But I don't 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:55.160 expect to have any kind of surprises with the MODERNA 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.880 data after we've seen the fiser TAVA or DAJA. You know, 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.680 for someone like me who watches FINA to markets and 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.360 economic cycles and have for many years, you know there's 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:05.800 are there are ups and downs, and there are cycles 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.240 that are shorter longer. When you look at the virus 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:10.600 and COVID nineteen cycle, where do you think we are? 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:16.240 I think we're in an interesting situation. So we're basically 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.000 in a in a race between vaccines and this virus, 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:23.039 and we've done a very good job at getting vaccine 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.640 into high risk individuals, nursing home residents, high risk community 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.320 dwelling people, and that's sort of change the way we 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.960 have to think about this virus. That we still have 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.800 a large proportion of the population it's not vaccinated, but 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.520 we have removed the ability of the virus to really 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.520 compromise hospitals because of the way we rolled out our vaccines. 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.800 So if you're vaccinated now, you're unlikely to be hospitalized, 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:46.760 and we gave the vaccine to those people who were 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.520 most likely to be hospitalized. So what I see as 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:54.120 a decoupling of cases from hospital hospital capacity concerns, and 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:55.680 I think that's going to take some time to get 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.880 getting used to. And I think people see these cases 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:00.680 surging and they expect to see us get back in 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.479 the same same predicament we were in in the winter, 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.320 but that's not going to happen because of where the 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.080 vaccine went, and that's that's where we are now. The 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:12.920 goal is really just to get more vaccine into those 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.919 lower priority groups so that we see some decrease in spread. 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:17.760 But we're not going to get to COVID zero. We're 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.240 going to kind of get to some some spot where 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.720 where this is not a public health emergency anymore, where 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.320 it's a much more manageable respiratory disease. And I don't 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:27.960 know where that spot is, but when hospitals are not 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:30.640 in crisis, I for one don't have the same worry 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.440 as as I would looking at this number of cases. 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.560 It just got like thirty thirty seconds here and then 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:36.840 we're gonna take a break and come back and talk 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:40.800 some more. So we're never going to get to COVID zero. No, 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.800 it's very difficult to eradicate the disease. There's only ever 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:47.200 been one disease that eradicated from the planet, smallpox in 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:49.920 COVID nineteen or starrs. COVIE two is an efficiently spreading 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:53.599 respiratory virus with an unknown animal host that's already spread 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.480 into other animals like minx and cats. It's justn't something 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.680 that goes away. It's going to become an endemic respiratory virus, 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:01.200 one that we deal with every year, but one that 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.160 never has the ability to threaten us the way it 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.640 can now because of the vaccine dr Adulga. We were 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.560 talking and we'll be talking later to our colleague Sarah Fryer, who, 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.200 along with our other colleagues Sarah Copitt, has a new 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.880 Business Week story all about anti vaxtors and how Facebook 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:20.440 is really allowing that information to flourish on the platform. 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.760 There's this fascinating quote in here from Karen Cornblue, director 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:25.840 of the think tank at the German Marshall Fund of 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.640 the United States Digital Innovation and Democracy Initiative. She says, quote, 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.159 the folks who are supporting the science have to get 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.160 better at telling the story, and that's in response to 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:38.719 the way that the scientists have been responding to anti 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.080 vaxers and the misinformation out there. What's the best way 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.640 for doctors to actually get the message out about the 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:50.320 safety around this vaccine. I think it's to really talk 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.800 to each person, at each patient that's in front of you, 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.480 and see exactly what their safety concerns are, and then 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:57.400 provide them with that data. I think one of the 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.039 one of the benefits of our all of Operation Warp 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.200 Speed and all these vaccine trials is that we have 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.320 so much data available so you can basically address any 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.640 person's safety concerns. All of this data is freely available, 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.160 and there are a lot of resources for doctors to 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:15.560 be able to talk to their patients. But I also think, 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:17.520 you know, even when you're talking to the public, when 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:19.960 you're in the press, it's really important just to stress 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.000 that when you look at the safety data, it's really 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.440 remarkable how safe this is. And it's not just the 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.440 clinical trials, it's what's going on in the real world 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:30.320 with the hundreds of millions of doses that have been 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:34.559 distributed around the world in the basic absence of any 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:37.640 major safety signal. That that that's concerning, and I think 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:39.680 that's that's all you can do is really be as 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:44.000 proactive about this and try and address concerns as best 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.240 as you can and not be in a reactionary stance 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.080 where you're waiting for the anti vaccine movement to come 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:52.239 up with the latest conspiracy theory and then you're stuck 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:54.760 rebutting it. I think if we present a positive case 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.400 for this vaccine, you know that the data is the 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:01.520 best is the best salesperson for it. But having you know, 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:03.640 medical people in my family, like every once in a 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.000 while we're having conversation and they get into medical speak 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.240 and it's like, I'm sorry, I'm not stupid, but I 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.400 don't understand what you're saying. And I think the messaging 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.560 can sometimes be on a on a different plane that 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.200 doesn't reach people. So like, you've got this incredible audience 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.560 right now, and I know you often do on Bloomberg 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.080 and on Quick Take, like what's what's the thing that 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.160 you think you can say about the vaccines that are 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:27.840 out there to kind of give confidence to people who 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.520 maybe are holding off on getting the vaccine because they're scared. 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:34.880 What I would say is that I've been taking care 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.520 of COVID nineteen patients since the beginning of this pandemic, 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.880 and I can see the benefit of this vaccine with 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.520 my eyes. When I walked through the hospital. I worked 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:45.800 at the hospital on Monday and Tuesday. I could walk 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.520 around and I could see that it was a whole 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.000 different place than than it was just back in December 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:54.120 when we were in on data with COVID nineteen. And 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.440 what changed. The cases are still high. It's actually the 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:01.240 fact that our vulnerable populations got vaccinated and that vaccine 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.760 has removed the ability of the virus to cause severe 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.000 disease and death. I can also say that I have 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.800 not seen any person present to the hospital with any 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.400 kind of side effect or concerned that put them, that 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.040 that landed them in the hospital from the vaccine. I've 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.679 poured over the data I've I've had to answer so 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.120 many questions about so many different side effects that people 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.960 may or may not have had, or anecdotes, and and 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.440 nothing has really panned out. And I think it's it's 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:32.200 extraordinary how safe these vaccines are. And I think that 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:34.480 even though we don't have long term data, even though 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.560 we don't have long term data, Yes, even though we 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:39.240 don't have long term data. I think it's important to 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.440 remember that any time of vaccine has approved, we still 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.200 continue to study the vaccine. After approval. They do what 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.440 are called phase four post marketing studies. They're still doing 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:50.600 no studies for things like the HPV vaccine guard it self. 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.440 That's very normal and and the thing is we're in 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.120 the middle of a pandemic where over five thousand people died. 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:58.360 I don't think that there was any option of waiting 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.160 six years down the road to say, let's have six 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.439 years of safety data before we release this vaccine. But 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:04.880 then there would be people said, well, we need seven 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.400 year safety data. We need eight Your safety data agreed. 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.920 I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. Already already got I've already 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:12.840 gotten one, and I'm waiting. I'm glad they waiting for 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:14.840 that second one, and I'm set to get it this weekend. 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:17.840 So I'm pretty excited about it. Dr Adulge, we do 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.520 still see despite everything that you're saying, despite what the 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:23.199 scientists and doctors are saying, we do still see hesitancy 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.120 among some Americans. You mentioned her immunity and that we 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:28.920 need to get to hurt immunity what happens though, if 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.679 we don't get to hurt immunity through the vaccine, well, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:34.240 I think if we don't get to hurt immunity through 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.840 the vaccine, you will still have a higher level of 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.600 cases than anybody wants, probably in the tens of thousands 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:44.160 range for some time until the population reaches herd immunity 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:48.920 with a combination of the vaccine and natural immunity. To me, 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:52.800 herd immunity is an important milestone, but I've always been 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.920 very focused on hospital capacity, like I said before, So 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.000 if we can get our vulnerbal populations all vaccinated and 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.280 this isn't something lands people in the hospital or kills them, 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:04.959 it becomes much more manageful even if we don't hit 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.520 her immunity through the vaccine, especially if that if the 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.600 people that are vaccine hesitant are not the highest christ individuals. 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.840 I worry about that the vaccine hesitancy kind of clustering 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.679 in a group of people that that might be at 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.640 high risk for hospitalization. But I do think that the 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.040 more vaccine we get into people, the more people that 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.880 are accepting of this vaccine, the faster track we we 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.640 are on to ending the pandemic and making COVID nineteen 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.679 something that is more like respiratory viruses that we deal 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:34.160 with year in and year out. So it's going to 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.760 be a major challenge when we've become less supply constraint 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.880 and more demand constrained. One well, so smart and so 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.280 spot on in terms of the conversations I know I'm 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.960 having out in public and certainly around the newsroom and elsewhere. 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:49.400 Dr Amish Adaga, thank you so much. Infectious Disease Physicians, 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.280 Senior Scholar at John's Hopkins Center for Health Security at 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.240 the Bloomberg School of Public Health, supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.479 founder of Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg Philanthropy. Is great conversation. 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:02.760 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:07.720 Quick takes Tim Stinovich from Bloomberg Radio. So makes you wonder, Tim, 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:09.760 if anything is changing when it comes to social media. 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:11.920 This next story kind of plays into that. It's about 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.240 how Facebook is letting anti vax ER's scare women from 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:17.559 COVID shots. It's real, and I gotta say I know 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.000 this firsthand based on the conversations I've been having. There's 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.120 a lot of women, especially those who maybe haven't had 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:25.040 children or are waiting to have their kids, and they're 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.600 worried about getting vaccines. Look, this is something that's new 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:29.839 to everybody right now. The science is playing out in 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:31.640 real time as we talk about all the time. Joel 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.000 Webber is editor at Bloomberg Business Week, joining us on 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.920 the remote from Brooklyn on the access line. Sarah Fryer 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.600 is technology reporter at Bloomberg News and she's the author 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.040 of No Filter, The Inside Story of Instagram. Joining us 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:47.920 now on the phone from San Francisco. U, Joel, this 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:53.080 is a very concerning piece from Sarah Fryar and and 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.360 and Sarah copit because Facebook, it seems, would have the 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.240 power to stop the spread of this type of misinformation 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.040 and the indeed change the way that they're thinking about it, 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.800 but it's still flourishing on the platform. Well, and it 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.240 it just speaks to a kind of the bigger Facebook 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.640 story that UM, Sarah has has been all over for 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:17.360 for years now about just misinformation on the platform and 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.720 the you know, the main metric of success for Facebook 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:26.240 is engagement and UM, even when things are outright lies, UM, 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.640 if people engage with them, it tends to be something 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:32.480 that that Facebook uh struggles to figure out how to 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.200 police and moderate and you know, they they've kind of 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.559 said one thing and have necessarily not always done that 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:40.960 in this particular instance. And I do think it's a 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.840 really fascinating sort of case study because here we are, 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:46.920 in the middle of the pandemic. People are getting shots 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:51.880 and or considering getting vaccinated in a rapid clip now, 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.680 and yet we've actually seen and what what serves reporting 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.280 shows is that women on social media and particularly on 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:04.200 Facebook have and basically targeted by anti vaxers as and 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:09.800 that has become really a devastating um um impact. So 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:11.600 so Sarah talked to us a little bit more about 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:16.440 what you found and why it's so troubling. Well, this 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:20.560 anti vax movement has been brewing for for years for 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:24.480 other kinds of vaccines um and with the pandemic, it's 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.680 different because the first people eligible for these COVID shops 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:31.760 are adults. So the normal rhetoric that they target young 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.480 mothers with telling their telling them not to get their 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.640 kids vascinated, they are targeting that same group but saying 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.520 that of the vaccine is going to cause fertility issues. 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:44.920 You don't know what the adverse site effects are going 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:49.640 to be and it's simply not true. The problem is 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.560 on Facebook, and we've talked about this over and over 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.080 on this show as well. This stuff that spreads is 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:00.040 that which sparks emotion, It's that which causes surprise. I 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:04.280 is in commentary. And although Facebook has done all these things, 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.840 like you know, banning the worst offenders and trying to 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:12.120 put up good vaccine information, they're up against their own systems, 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.520 their own their own design that rewards that kind of 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:21.000 behavior on their apps and on Instagram. It's it's very 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:25.120 pervasive too. And I would even say a little bit worth. Um. 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.120 The lead character of our stories, as woman Police Williams, 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.440 who was always a little skeptical, became more skeptical, i 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.320 should say, of the medical establishment after going through camps 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.160 between it and when she joined Instagram, she got really 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:43.240 into alternative health and natural wellness and through that went 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:48.160 down the rabbit hole into learning this false information about 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:52.800 how vaccines could cause adverse side effects. Um that simply 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.320 wasn't based in reality. And on Instagram you have the 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.560 effects of the people that are are saying that are 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:07.640 famal teneously trying to sell alternatives supplement plans workouts, whatever 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:09.960 they can do as an alternative to what the government 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:14.720 is is selling UM via vaccine. So I really think 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:19.280 that it's it's not a reliable source of good health information. Sarah, 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:20.840 I'm glad you brought that up because that's something I 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:22.440 wanted to talk more about, and that was one of 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.400 my takeaways that there is actually this like anti vax 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:30.240 or industrial complex out there that stands to financially benefit 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:36.600 from from people uh not believing the science, right. I 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:38.840 think that that again, it's it's preying on the fear. 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:44.400 And on Instagram, people have built their profiles, influencers who 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.640 are in wellness have built their profiles around giving you 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.040 this idyllic path for your life, saying you know, if 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:55.080 you just do my Juce cleanse or do my workouts, 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.960 like trust me, I know what do and you can 0:16:58.080 --> 0:16:59.720 look like me and you can have a life like me. 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.760 And those personal stories again, just like on Facebook and 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:08.120 Facebook groups, personal stories resonate people trust people who who 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:13.240 are intimate and emotional and and letting them into their 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.600 lives and will buy things from those people, whether it's 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:21.080 UM buy into the antexots they're spreading or UM by 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.919 what they're selling in terms of wellness, retreats and supplements. 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:30.119 So I think that that it's important for people to 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:34.560 understand that as we shift from this discussion about vaccine supply, 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.119 like you know, who's eligible, when is it going to 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:41.680 be distributed to us, a discussion about vaccines demand. Um, 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.760 once more people have access to the shot, this is 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.879 going to be a huge factor. So Sarah like, who's 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.520 the fault? I mean, I feel like Facebook, you know, 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:53.000 we learned a lot leading up to the November election 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:58.639 about misinformation on the platform. So do you fall Facebook 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:01.840 for not policing it more? Or do people fall uh 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.439 Facebook now you know, for policing it not more? Or 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.399 what about the science community and medical community for coming 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:12.680 out with smarter messaging? Well, the medical community, it's it's 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.679 difficult because inherently doctors are not going to tell you 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.480 things and absolutes. There's there's a lot of nuance there, 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.359 there's a lot of technical background that needs to be 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:27.080 to be told in on Facebook all they have done 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:32.639 a lot to try to improve their reaction to the problems, 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.240 but they haven't done anything to solve They're solving the 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:39.320 symptom and not the disease um. The symptoms being the 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.280 information that spreads the people that have gotten saneus. The 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.199 worst is the worst, Um, the disease being just the 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.680 very structure of the app, how it actually works, Um, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.479 the way things are personalized. The woman I was speaking 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.360 of earlier UM said, you know the great thing about 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.439 Instagram is once you find some people who are you know, 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:00.760 in the world she wants to sell her essential oil 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.040 to Instagram just serves up more people like those people. 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.040 It's all about the personalization. It's all about bringing people 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:10.280 deeper into the communities that they want to interact with 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.760 online because, like Joel said, it's all about engagement and 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.040 that is the fundamental problem. I love that aspect of it, 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.760 where you got into groups and the meaningful conversations and 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.040 how that just provided so much more momentum um to 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:25.159 these conversations inaccurate ones and others. Uh Sarah. It's a 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.920 great read. It is so full of information, smart information 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.760 and understanding how this all works. So I highly recommend 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:33.760 that everybody check it out. It's going to be featured, 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:35.560 by the way, in the upcoming issue of Bloomberg Business 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:37.639 Week magazine. You can read it now though on the 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.680 Bloomberg Terminal and also at Bloomberg dot Com, Slash business Week. 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.960 Sarah Fryer, thank you, Thank you, Technology report at Bloomberg News, 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.119 author of No Filter, the inside story of Instagram. Great 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.760 weekend reading. I'm just going to point that out with us. 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.520 From San Francisco. Joel Weber, editor a Bloomberg Business Week. 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:01.200 You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol and Bloomberg 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:06.400 Quick Takes. Tim Stinovy from Bloomberg Radio. You are listening 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.520 to Bloomberg Business Week. It is Thursday. It is the 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:12.520 monthly jobs report. Eve and back with us as an 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:15.000 insider and informed, an insightful voice when it comes to 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:18.560 all things Washington and politics and policy. Chris lou is 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.200 back with us. He's former Deputy Secretary of Labor under 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.280 the Obama administration, worked up on Capitol Hill. He's actually 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.159 worked in each of the three branches of the U. S. Government. 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:29.879 He was also executive director of Barack Obama's two thousand 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.560 eight transition team, member of President Biden's transition team, and 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.960 he is senior Fellow at the University of Virginia Miller Center. 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:40.160 He joins us on the phone in Charlottesville, Virginia, Chris, 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.680 so nice to have you here. How are you? I'm 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.440 a great boy that we have to shortenight. I was 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.000 gonna say, sorry, we've run out of time. You have 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:50.800 to stop being, you know, doing all these notable things. Um, 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.320