WEBVTT - The Trust Diagnosis 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.156 Pushkin. I have a friend named Dan. I've known him 0:00:23.196 --> 0:00:27.076 for years. He's in his seventies, lives outside Washington, d C. 0:00:27.516 --> 0:00:31.396 He's in the crisis communications business. Companies call him in 0:00:31.396 --> 0:00:33.916 when they have a big problem. In fact, that's how 0:00:33.996 --> 0:00:36.276 I met him. I was working on a story about 0:00:36.276 --> 0:00:39.396 one of his cases and he called me up. Dan 0:00:39.476 --> 0:00:42.196 and I talk all the time. And last of all, 0:00:42.476 --> 0:00:44.996 he said something to me in passing about having to 0:00:45.036 --> 0:00:48.276 go for a bunch of tests. He didn't say why. 0:00:48.796 --> 0:00:50.116 It didn't seem like a big deal. 0:00:51.396 --> 0:00:57.116 The last many my internest told me that he was 0:00:57.156 --> 0:01:00.836 pretty sure I had probably cancer, and for me, it 0:01:00.916 --> 0:01:04.196 was a I can't say it was a nothing reaction, 0:01:04.316 --> 0:01:07.716 but it was certainly a very modest reaction. I said 0:01:07.716 --> 0:01:11.796 to him, isn't this a minor league cancers? And isn't 0:01:11.836 --> 0:01:15.276 it a write of passage if you're a man my age? 0:01:15.676 --> 0:01:18.996 And that's how I thought about it, And it was 0:01:19.076 --> 0:01:25.396 reinforced when I would connected with the urologist who said 0:01:25.396 --> 0:01:28.996 to me anytime in the next few months, have an MRI. 0:01:31.156 --> 0:01:35.476 So I thought of it as a minor thing, and 0:01:36.236 --> 0:01:42.756 my first contact with my expert reinforced that. So I 0:01:42.796 --> 0:01:46.116 didn't even bother to do anything until August. From May 0:01:46.116 --> 0:01:51.196 to August, and I go a blood test, to an MRI, 0:01:51.636 --> 0:01:55.676 to a biopsy, to a pet scan, and then it was, yeah, 0:01:55.716 --> 0:02:01.956 you got it. And then the next deal was you 0:02:03.156 --> 0:02:07.756 should just go and get some radiation and some hormone therapy, 0:02:08.436 --> 0:02:10.676 and it was and I had to draw it out 0:02:10.676 --> 0:02:13.676 of the physician and it was a casual matter of fact, 0:02:14.396 --> 0:02:16.356 and that was sort of dumped in my lap at 0:02:16.356 --> 0:02:16.756 that point. 0:02:17.916 --> 0:02:21.356 But at a certain point something nagged at him. He 0:02:21.436 --> 0:02:24.356 wasn't sure why, since everything thus far had been straightforward, 0:02:24.716 --> 0:02:26.116 so he started calling around. 0:02:26.836 --> 0:02:28.596 But as I was going through it, because of my 0:02:28.716 --> 0:02:31.636 work and friends, I've had lots of health clients and 0:02:31.756 --> 0:02:34.876 education clients, as you know, I asked somebody just to 0:02:34.996 --> 0:02:39.756 look at it to make sure there wasn't something. And 0:02:39.796 --> 0:02:43.076 I was even embarrassed and hesitant to ask because I 0:02:43.076 --> 0:02:47.116 thought it's such a minor problem. It felt like an imposition. 0:02:47.156 --> 0:02:49.396 And my friend wanted to do it, and I was 0:02:49.436 --> 0:02:56.316 even hesitant and reluctant, and a doctor which I will 0:02:56.396 --> 0:02:58.676 name doctor Master Emory, looked at it and said, you 0:02:58.716 --> 0:03:01.236 have a big problem, and you have an urgent problem, 0:03:01.996 --> 0:03:05.516 and it was like that and he said, if you 0:03:05.596 --> 0:03:08.116 were my patient, I would have had you in my 0:03:08.236 --> 0:03:13.076 surgical suite last week, but you have an urgent matter. 0:03:14.676 --> 0:03:17.716 My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 0:03:17.956 --> 0:03:22.556 my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode, where 0:03:22.596 --> 0:03:25.676 we explore how and when trust decisions are made, is 0:03:25.716 --> 0:03:29.076 sponsored by PayPal Open, Trusted by consumers, built for all 0:03:29.116 --> 0:03:31.716 business for over twenty five years, they've been at the 0:03:31.756 --> 0:03:35.756 forefront of commerce, helping merchants of all sizes grow. So 0:03:35.916 --> 0:03:39.356 wherever a commerce moves next, you can rest assured PayPal 0:03:39.436 --> 0:03:43.596 Open has your back. Head to paypalopen dot com to 0:03:43.716 --> 0:03:49.316 learn more. Over several episodes, we'll dive into the topic 0:03:49.436 --> 0:03:52.836 of trust, where it comes from, the moment it's earned, 0:03:53.396 --> 0:03:56.716 and how we decide who to trust or not. And 0:03:56.796 --> 0:03:59.636 I wanted to start with the story of my friend Dan, who, 0:03:59.676 --> 0:04:01.436 out of the blue one day was told that a 0:04:01.476 --> 0:04:05.716 problem he thought was routine was actually threatening his life. 0:04:05.876 --> 0:04:10.116 And you had to decide, under the most emotionally overwhelming 0:04:10.236 --> 0:04:13.156 circumstances imaginable, who to trust. 0:04:18.876 --> 0:04:24.316 He looked at my files, looked at my data, and said, 0:04:24.356 --> 0:04:27.276 you have a big proble. And he said others will 0:04:27.316 --> 0:04:30.276 tell you that you don't, but I'm telling you you do. 0:04:31.436 --> 0:04:34.076 One of the many interesting things about Dan is that 0:04:34.156 --> 0:04:36.756 if I told you his full name and you googled him, 0:04:37.276 --> 0:04:41.396 almost nothing would come up. He doesn't advertise, he doesn't 0:04:41.396 --> 0:04:44.876 give interviews, he doesn't go to fancy gaullas. There are 0:04:44.876 --> 0:04:48.476 no pictures of him anywhere. He's almost invisible. But in 0:04:48.476 --> 0:04:51.236 the very rarefied world of Fortune five, when the companies 0:04:51.636 --> 0:04:56.276 and CEOs and political big wigs, everyone knows Dan because 0:04:56.556 --> 0:04:59.036 he's the guy you call when you have a problem 0:04:59.076 --> 0:05:00.436 you don't know how to deal with. 0:05:02.076 --> 0:05:07.796 For the past nearly forty years I have lived. That's 0:05:07.836 --> 0:05:10.196 what I referred to as the intersection of bad luck 0:05:10.196 --> 0:05:16.316 and bad judgment. I help people who have managed to 0:05:16.396 --> 0:05:22.756 get themselves into really serious trouble. The kind of trouble 0:05:22.796 --> 0:05:27.076 that is career defining, can be threatening to the existence 0:05:27.116 --> 0:05:30.596 of a business, brings a level of scrutiny from the 0:05:30.636 --> 0:05:36.876 Justice Department or Congress or media that is inescapable, usually 0:05:36.996 --> 0:05:40.556 to borrow the words of Fank Williams. These are folks 0:05:40.596 --> 0:05:41.996 who see their name at the top of the. 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:45.596 Page and you are you're not going to blow your 0:05:45.636 --> 0:05:50.676 run horn. But literally, like if some big shot person 0:05:50.756 --> 0:05:55.636 gets in trouble, you're like tak Ghostbusters. It's like Dan 0:05:55.716 --> 0:05:57.356 gets the call. You get the first call A so, 0:05:57.436 --> 0:05:58.996 as I could tell, for. 0:05:59.116 --> 0:06:02.876 The last twenty five thirty years, I get the call. 0:06:03.156 --> 0:06:03.636 Yeah. 0:06:03.916 --> 0:06:08.556 And there have been many times where I will see 0:06:08.556 --> 0:06:13.756 a story break and I'm automatically processing it, reacting what 0:06:13.796 --> 0:06:15.356 do I think? What do I think is going on? 0:06:16.436 --> 0:06:19.756 And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking I 0:06:19.836 --> 0:06:22.556 might get a call. In many cases, I do get 0:06:22.556 --> 0:06:26.196 a call. And whether it's the General Motors bankruptcy, or 0:06:26.236 --> 0:06:29.956 the Paterno Penn State case, or the BP oil spill, 0:06:30.516 --> 0:06:34.196 the Equifax data breach, you know, either limited what I 0:06:34.196 --> 0:06:37.876 can say about what I did, but I get the call. 0:06:38.396 --> 0:06:40.316 Now, why do you Let's talk about this in the 0:06:40.356 --> 0:06:45.676 context of trust. So you've spent your life walking into boardrooms, 0:06:45.716 --> 0:06:48.596 executive suites, what have you to talk to people who, 0:06:49.156 --> 0:06:53.556 in most cases you have never met before? Right, so 0:06:53.876 --> 0:06:57.836 people just know you by reputation. Why do they trust you? 0:07:00.276 --> 0:07:03.516 It's an interesting thing. I've thought about it sometimes because 0:07:03.556 --> 0:07:09.596 I've wondered about misplaced trust. The genuine trust comes through 0:07:09.596 --> 0:07:15.236 the process. It isn't in the beginning. It's hope, and 0:07:15.276 --> 0:07:19.196 its panic and it's fear, and they've been told by 0:07:19.236 --> 0:07:23.076 somebody that they do trust. This is the guy you need. 0:07:24.036 --> 0:07:28.516 They know they're in such a difficult spot, they don't 0:07:28.516 --> 0:07:31.316 know where to turn. They are desperate to find somebody 0:07:31.316 --> 0:07:33.516 who can help them. You know. An irony for me 0:07:33.636 --> 0:07:37.316 in my medical situation is I used to say to 0:07:38.076 --> 0:07:43.836 clients sort of jokingly, that I'm a urologist and that 0:07:44.076 --> 0:07:46.796 I'm the person you don't really want to see. But 0:07:46.876 --> 0:07:50.196 when you need to see, there isn't anything more important 0:07:50.956 --> 0:07:52.916 You want to see that neurologists and you want that 0:07:52.956 --> 0:07:56.796 problem solved. There is a sense of urgency that is 0:07:57.396 --> 0:08:02.116 focusing in a way that nothing else matters. And then 0:08:02.156 --> 0:08:06.156 I end up in this situation needing my urologists. But 0:08:06.916 --> 0:08:13.716 it is what I What I know is they know 0:08:13.996 --> 0:08:18.876 quickly if they can trust me. M hm. They can 0:08:18.916 --> 0:08:23.916 tell your tone, the first things you say are so 0:08:24.036 --> 0:08:31.996 critically important. The manner, your style, your sense of confidence, 0:08:33.276 --> 0:08:38.076 all those things communicate absolutely instantly. People are processing is 0:08:38.116 --> 0:08:40.956 this a person in my in the most critical situation 0:08:41.036 --> 0:08:43.476 of my career? Should I give them time? Should I 0:08:43.476 --> 0:08:45.356 give them face? Should I pay attention? 0:08:45.396 --> 0:08:47.876 To what they're saying, and what is it in that moment? 0:08:47.996 --> 0:08:48.356 Are you? 0:08:49.236 --> 0:08:52.636 If you had to summarize as simply as possible, what 0:08:52.716 --> 0:08:56.156 you're bringing to them in that moment, what is it? 0:08:55.876 --> 0:09:00.996 It's a good question. It's a hard question because, as 0:09:01.996 --> 0:09:06.676 I've explained, I will be the least knowledgeable person in 0:09:06.716 --> 0:09:11.356 any room I'm in, and partly it's because I'm in 0:09:11.396 --> 0:09:15.756 the rooms on calls, in meetings, in boardrooms with people 0:09:15.796 --> 0:09:27.476 who are phenomenally experienced, capable, educated, credentialed leading scientists, engineers, MBAs, lawyers, CEOs, 0:09:27.836 --> 0:09:32.436 board chairs, tremendously accomplished people, and they have a world 0:09:32.436 --> 0:09:35.916 of advisors around them. They don't lack for counsel in 0:09:36.036 --> 0:09:40.316 health counsel and the communications front, marketing, legal, outside advisors, 0:09:40.356 --> 0:09:43.196 business consultants. So what do I bring. I don't have 0:09:43.236 --> 0:09:48.196 any of those credentials. I bring a depth of experience 0:09:48.316 --> 0:09:52.956 of being in truly, truly difficult situations hundreds of times 0:09:53.436 --> 0:09:55.156 where the stakes are so big and the pressure is 0:09:55.156 --> 0:09:58.756 so great. I think if I have a particular skill, 0:09:58.796 --> 0:10:05.356 it is synthesizing, clarifying. I hope and believe that I 0:10:05.436 --> 0:10:10.396 bring a common sense perspective to it, which relates to 0:10:10.436 --> 0:10:15.316 the clarity, and I want to help them prioritize what 0:10:15.436 --> 0:10:19.316 they're doing and how they're processing it. And then inevitably 0:10:19.356 --> 0:10:22.396 I'm involved in what do you say about it? What 0:10:22.436 --> 0:10:24.476 do you say? Who says it, when do you say it? 0:10:24.996 --> 0:10:27.756 How do you communicate that? And that It can sound easy, 0:10:27.796 --> 0:10:31.196 but then you've got all the technical aspects, the factual 0:10:31.276 --> 0:10:35.116 side of that, You've got the legal considerations, the regulatory considerations, 0:10:35.676 --> 0:10:38.316 and all those pressures are there. How can you help 0:10:38.436 --> 0:10:42.556 them fight through that and get them to say something 0:10:43.276 --> 0:10:46.956 that real people can understand. There's an honesty and an 0:10:46.996 --> 0:10:48.596 integrity and a value to it. 0:10:49.276 --> 0:10:51.276 In a meeting with a client, have you ever raised 0:10:51.276 --> 0:10:57.996 your voice? No, you do have speaking of why it 0:10:58.076 --> 0:11:01.996 is people trust you. You do radiate a kind of 0:11:02.836 --> 0:11:08.276 calm and there's something dispassionate about the way you see 0:11:08.316 --> 0:11:10.916 the world. And I imagining you're doing the people who 0:11:10.916 --> 0:11:12.836 are often highly emotional. 0:11:13.836 --> 0:11:16.756 Oh, I mean, I'm in a room where there's always 0:11:16.836 --> 0:11:22.676 there's lots of screaming, there's jockeying. People are desperate to 0:11:23.996 --> 0:11:27.476 sort of seeking an advisory role. Others are trying to 0:11:27.516 --> 0:11:30.996 get out of it. There are people who are trying 0:11:30.996 --> 0:11:35.676 to take credit, and there are people trying to lay blame, 0:11:36.556 --> 0:11:40.076 and there's just tremendous emotion. You know, when I what 0:11:40.236 --> 0:11:43.516 I know, I'll just tell you if it's a few 0:11:43.596 --> 0:11:47.196 things I really have never talked about. I need to 0:11:47.236 --> 0:11:49.436 get to a point where the CEO will tell me anything, 0:11:51.516 --> 0:11:54.876 and I mean tell me the personal side, because the 0:11:54.636 --> 0:11:58.396 the personal emotional toll of these things is never really 0:11:58.436 --> 0:12:00.476 factored in and it plays a huge part in what 0:12:00.516 --> 0:12:05.276 they're going through. So I I it's not as much 0:12:05.396 --> 0:12:07.276 what I say is what I hear. I want I 0:12:07.316 --> 0:12:09.476 want them to feel if they read some point where 0:12:09.476 --> 0:12:12.516 they want to truly confide in me, that I know 0:12:15.596 --> 0:12:18.476 I'm going to play a role. The other thing that 0:12:18.556 --> 0:12:23.596 I know is it is absolutely essential for me to 0:12:23.676 --> 0:12:28.956 be candid in my very first conversations, really candid. So 0:12:29.036 --> 0:12:30.876 you mentioned earlier about do you tell them how bad 0:12:30.916 --> 0:12:34.636 it is? In a sense I do. I'm not telling 0:12:34.636 --> 0:12:37.756 them something they don't know, but I want them to 0:12:37.756 --> 0:12:41.516 know two things that I have a sense of the 0:12:41.556 --> 0:12:43.956 situation without all the factual command that they have. I 0:12:43.996 --> 0:12:48.156 have a sense of it, and that I am going 0:12:48.196 --> 0:12:52.636 to be absolutely direct with them. I'm not trying to 0:12:52.756 --> 0:12:56.916 shock I'm not trying to make them feel worse, but 0:12:56.956 --> 0:13:00.756 I'm unafraid to tell them what I think. And that's 0:13:00.796 --> 0:13:05.156 absolutely and those first literally, those first conversations, it's it's 0:13:05.556 --> 0:13:06.876 critical to your role. 0:13:08.396 --> 0:13:11.756 So you go and see doctor Master, and the tables 0:13:11.756 --> 0:13:17.356 are turned. Dan had become the client, the person in 0:13:17.396 --> 0:13:21.396 a state of emotional distress and confusion talking to a 0:13:21.436 --> 0:13:26.316 stranger and trying to decide whether to trust him. We'll 0:13:26.356 --> 0:13:37.996 be right back. This is fascinating with Dan because you 0:13:38.076 --> 0:13:40.436 are in a moment. There's a moment here when you 0:13:40.516 --> 0:13:43.316 start to treat this problem you're having in the same 0:13:43.316 --> 0:13:45.516 way that you actually said this to me. There was 0:13:45.516 --> 0:13:47.876 a moment when I started to treat this problem I 0:13:47.916 --> 0:13:49.956 understood this was no different from the problems I deal 0:13:49.956 --> 0:13:50.636 with in my work. 0:13:50.836 --> 0:13:52.836 Yeah, that's when this whole thing turned. 0:13:53.276 --> 0:13:56.276 Do you when do you have that sense of oh, 0:13:56.316 --> 0:13:58.196 this is something I've been doing my whole life. 0:13:58.796 --> 0:14:01.236 Well, so doctor Master is telling me I have a 0:14:01.236 --> 0:14:05.036 serious problem, that it needs to be addressed, and that 0:14:05.156 --> 0:14:09.636 I need surgery, but he's not the one to do it. 0:14:10.716 --> 0:14:13.876 Then I followed up and I talked to two surgeons 0:14:15.076 --> 0:14:18.956 who said to me, surgeries out of the question can't 0:14:18.996 --> 0:14:24.876 be done, and that my problem was a lot more complicated, 0:14:24.916 --> 0:14:26.396 a lot more advanced. 0:14:26.596 --> 0:14:31.996 And now the script is flipped. Have changed dramatically. We've 0:14:31.996 --> 0:14:35.236 gone from doctors shrugging to doctor saying it's so bad, 0:14:35.276 --> 0:14:38.996 we don't even think we can do surgery right. And 0:14:39.036 --> 0:14:41.476 when they say that, so, what are they telling you? 0:14:41.476 --> 0:14:43.076 Your options are at that moment. 0:14:45.236 --> 0:14:51.156 That you're gonna need other all the treatments that are available. 0:14:51.676 --> 0:14:54.916 And they kept saying, Malcolm, it's a very interesting thing, 0:14:54.916 --> 0:14:58.516 because you know, I pay again. It was my instincts. 0:14:59.356 --> 0:15:02.036 I listen to exactly what they're saying and the way 0:15:02.076 --> 0:15:04.676 they say it, in the order in which they're saying it. 0:15:05.836 --> 0:15:08.356 The first thing they would say to me is we 0:15:08.396 --> 0:15:13.236 can keep you alive. And that was meant as a 0:15:13.236 --> 0:15:16.996 reassuring message. And it wasn't not because I feared death, 0:15:17.276 --> 0:15:21.596 but because I thought they thought that I feared death. 0:15:22.676 --> 0:15:25.476 And what I was worried about was quality of life 0:15:25.636 --> 0:15:29.516 more than length of life. And consistently it was about 0:15:29.516 --> 0:15:31.156 we're going to keep you alife. We can keep you alive, 0:15:31.996 --> 0:15:34.636 and then it was but surgery is not an option, 0:15:34.676 --> 0:15:39.596 you're too far gone, And then it was a radiation 0:15:40.236 --> 0:15:46.436 extensive hormones the rest of my life in chemotherapy, and 0:15:47.516 --> 0:15:52.316 an ordeal that would be I'm looking grateful for anything 0:15:52.316 --> 0:16:01.276 but exceedingly unpleasant, a life that was tremendously compromised. So 0:16:01.516 --> 0:16:04.996 I talked to these surgeons and their language was One 0:16:05.036 --> 0:16:07.716 surgeon said, oh, oh no, no, no, no, no no. 0:16:08.556 --> 0:16:13.036 Immediately after he told me, you know you can say 0:16:13.036 --> 0:16:17.876 alive you don't want the surgery, he said, I I 0:16:17.916 --> 0:16:20.076 would be I would not want to do it, but 0:16:20.116 --> 0:16:21.516 he said, I'll do it if you want me to. 0:16:23.596 --> 0:16:25.996 And I don't, you know, but he literally said, I'll 0:16:25.996 --> 0:16:27.476 do it if you if you really want me to. 0:16:28.516 --> 0:16:30.516 And you know, no one of course is thinking of that. 0:16:31.036 --> 0:16:36.156 A second surgeon that I talked to kept saying, and 0:16:36.756 --> 0:16:38.996 I'm not exaggerating, I think he said it. I made 0:16:38.996 --> 0:16:42.316 notes seven times in my I had a video chat 0:16:42.356 --> 0:16:47.076 with him. He said, it's at least ninety percent that 0:16:47.156 --> 0:16:53.396 I will not be successful, and he said it's probably below. 0:16:53.836 --> 0:16:57.996 It's probably single digits to have any chance of success here. 0:16:58.276 --> 0:17:00.516 And he was so worried that I wasn't hearing that. 0:17:00.876 --> 0:17:03.356 He kept repeating it over and over and over again. 0:17:03.956 --> 0:17:05.676 So after I talked to them, I talked to another 0:17:05.716 --> 0:17:09.556 doctor who said to me, finally the magical messy for me, 0:17:09.676 --> 0:17:12.476 which is, you're the only one who can figure out 0:17:12.476 --> 0:17:14.716 what to do here, Dan, the doctors can figure this 0:17:14.756 --> 0:17:19.716 out for you. And I immediately understood what that meant, 0:17:20.476 --> 0:17:25.436 and I was immediately comfortable. I thought, I distress. Interestingly, 0:17:25.956 --> 0:17:28.996 the challenge was great, but the stress receded. I thought, 0:17:29.196 --> 0:17:32.116 I know this, I know exactly what he's saying. What 0:17:32.196 --> 0:17:37.916 did he mean, Not that I had been talking to 0:17:38.036 --> 0:17:44.476 incompetent doctors, not that I was getting bad advice can 0:17:44.596 --> 0:17:47.676 argue about the elements of it, but that it is 0:17:47.716 --> 0:17:54.956 a problem that doesn't have necessarily obvious, clear advice attached 0:17:54.956 --> 0:17:58.676 to it. That what no one had said, but which 0:17:58.716 --> 0:18:01.996 I figured out the tests are not clear, they're not definitive, 0:18:02.036 --> 0:18:06.316 they're not perfect, and that the science is incredibly complicated, 0:18:07.316 --> 0:18:11.436 and that I could get extremely accomplished people from different 0:18:11.436 --> 0:18:17.916 fields on collegists, pathologists, surgeons looking at this and they 0:18:17.956 --> 0:18:20.796 could legitimately come to a wide range of different views. 0:18:21.236 --> 0:18:23.196 I thought, I've lived my life in that room. I 0:18:23.276 --> 0:18:24.036 know what that means. 0:18:26.396 --> 0:18:27.636 So what was your next step? 0:18:29.316 --> 0:18:29.556 Wait? 0:18:29.636 --> 0:18:32.316 At the moment he says that so that's the moment 0:18:32.316 --> 0:18:34.356 where you say, Okay, I've been here before. 0:18:34.556 --> 0:18:35.716 No, I know another deal. 0:18:37.156 --> 0:18:39.436 He was in a crisis, and what had he spent 0:18:39.596 --> 0:18:44.556 his entire life doing solving crises? What was a change 0:18:44.556 --> 0:18:46.556 in your perspective of that moment? Did you? 0:18:46.436 --> 0:18:48.556 So? You said, had you tremendous comfort? 0:18:48.756 --> 0:18:50.156 Yeah? 0:18:50.596 --> 0:18:57.436 It was. It was. I am one hundred percent confident 0:18:57.516 --> 0:19:02.316 and comfortable making this decision myself, not because I thought 0:19:02.356 --> 0:19:04.956 I would be perfect or that I knew more than 0:19:04.956 --> 0:19:07.756 the doctors. I knew that I didn't, but that I 0:19:07.876 --> 0:19:13.316 knew the right process to go through to arrive at 0:19:13.316 --> 0:19:15.956 the best conclusion I could arrive at, and I have. 0:19:16.396 --> 0:19:19.316 It was. It was a tremendous calming experience for me. 0:19:20.356 --> 0:19:24.836 But I was blessed because of this experience. Nothing I'd 0:19:24.876 --> 0:19:26.796 ever planned on, nothing I would have ever thought about 0:19:27.036 --> 0:19:30.516 when I started this. But I've been through it dozens 0:19:30.516 --> 0:19:33.196 and dozens and dozens of times on incredibly complicated, high 0:19:33.196 --> 0:19:38.676 stakes issues, careers, billions of dollars, and that I had 0:19:38.676 --> 0:19:42.756 a network of people that I could call on for perspective, 0:19:43.276 --> 0:19:45.996 so I knew I would get good advice. So I 0:19:46.156 --> 0:19:48.876 just from that moment, I just said, this is my 0:19:48.956 --> 0:19:50.396 newest case assignment. 0:19:51.036 --> 0:19:56.436 First trust was misplaced trust. Second trust stage was you 0:19:56.476 --> 0:19:59.156 can trust yourself. I Dan can trust myself on this. 0:20:00.116 --> 0:20:02.636 I can trust myself in this process. 0:20:04.036 --> 0:20:07.076 So he started over doing exactly the thing he always 0:20:07.116 --> 0:20:09.676 does when he takes on a new case. He read 0:20:09.716 --> 0:20:12.276 everything there was to read. He went through his medical 0:20:12.276 --> 0:20:14.836 records with a fine tooth comb, flagging the things that 0:20:14.876 --> 0:20:18.876 he didn't understand or that needed clarification. He was guided 0:20:18.916 --> 0:20:22.676 by one of the foundational principles of his work. First 0:20:22.756 --> 0:20:28.796 facts are always wrong, always wrong, always wrong, always wait. 0:20:28.836 --> 0:20:31.556 Describe explain that a little bit, because it's super relevant here, 0:20:31.556 --> 0:20:35.076 because in your case, the first facts are wrong, wrong, wrong. 0:20:35.196 --> 0:20:36.356 Why are first facts wrong? 0:20:37.476 --> 0:20:42.556 Well, it's the kind of thing you know. I had 0:20:42.596 --> 0:20:45.876 to learn through experience. Again, you're in a room. You're 0:20:46.076 --> 0:20:51.636 brilliant doctors, brilliant engineers, m b as, fabulous lawyers outside 0:20:51.716 --> 0:20:57.636 counts you would and so when they're telling you something, 0:20:58.516 --> 0:21:04.556 you believe it. You're based on their credibility, their integrity, 0:21:04.636 --> 0:21:07.436 their experience. The problem is where did they get what 0:21:07.516 --> 0:21:14.156 they know? In a crisis. It's coming too fast? How's 0:21:14.196 --> 0:21:18.236 it being processed? How thorough is it? How much can 0:21:18.276 --> 0:21:22.716 you know, and how's it being interpreted, Who's interpreted And 0:21:23.276 --> 0:21:27.876 sometimes there could be some obvious bias. Sometimes there's unintentional 0:21:28.876 --> 0:21:33.916 a bias. But what I always know is you don't 0:21:33.916 --> 0:21:36.956 have it all. What you think you have part of 0:21:36.996 --> 0:21:42.396 it's wrong and you need to be extremely careful decisions 0:21:42.436 --> 0:21:45.116 you're making based on those facts and what you're saying, 0:21:45.756 --> 0:21:47.996 because you're going to be reversing some of those decisions. 0:21:48.036 --> 0:21:51.116 You're going to be eating some of those words. And Malcolm, 0:21:51.196 --> 0:21:54.316 I never even thought about that. In my case. I 0:21:54.356 --> 0:21:57.716 did what all my clients do. Well, I've got serious 0:21:57.796 --> 0:22:02.236 lap tests, I've got an important experienced doctor, I've got 0:22:02.596 --> 0:22:05.756 other experts who have looked at it. Surely these things 0:22:06.636 --> 0:22:08.956 are right, you can rely on them. And I did, 0:22:09.236 --> 0:22:10.836 and I was absolutely wrong. 0:22:11.756 --> 0:22:14.196 What he learned was that the test that everyone was 0:22:14.276 --> 0:22:17.356 using to make sense of his case, where was his cancer? 0:22:17.676 --> 0:22:20.796 How bad was it? How much had it spread or flawed? 0:22:21.516 --> 0:22:24.996 Not because of anyone's incompetence, but just because trying to 0:22:25.036 --> 0:22:27.836 get an accurate picture of cancer when you first find 0:22:27.876 --> 0:22:31.876 it is really really hard. And that what happens is 0:22:31.916 --> 0:22:35.436 when doctors speak to their patients, they sometimes forget to 0:22:35.516 --> 0:22:38.956 communicate this fact, they pretend that they know something for 0:22:39.116 --> 0:22:43.316 certain when they actually don't, which meant that you couldn't 0:22:43.316 --> 0:22:46.276 put your trust in the results of biopsies and scans. 0:22:46.636 --> 0:22:50.956 You were of necessity in the world of subjectivity and judgment. 0:22:51.756 --> 0:22:54.836 And Dan knew all about the world of subjectivity and judgment. 0:22:55.516 --> 0:22:58.956 It was where he had spent his entire career. Then, 0:22:59.236 --> 0:23:01.796 when he felt that he was at least informed enough 0:23:01.796 --> 0:23:04.756 to ask the right questions, he put together a list 0:23:04.796 --> 0:23:08.036 of doctors he wanted to interview, put everything on hold 0:23:08.236 --> 0:23:11.476 for two months, and had a zoom call with one 0:23:11.516 --> 0:23:16.436 specialist after another. So you you go out, how many 0:23:16.436 --> 0:23:17.396 doctors do you interview? 0:23:19.196 --> 0:23:24.076 I had conversations with eighteen doctors, eighteen eighteen. 0:23:24.476 --> 0:23:29.956 And of those eighteen, how many told you? Can you 0:23:30.036 --> 0:23:32.716 kind of quantify what they told you? Like, how many 0:23:32.756 --> 0:23:38.676 told you surgery were Treatnteen fifteen told you what don't 0:23:38.676 --> 0:23:40.076 do surgery? Don't do surgery? 0:23:41.316 --> 0:23:43.276 One was split and two said yes. 0:23:44.636 --> 0:23:46.876 Tell me about the two who said yes. 0:23:48.956 --> 0:23:53.676 It was And I never shared the information between the 0:23:53.676 --> 0:24:00.916 two of them. I want to just objective views. And 0:24:00.956 --> 0:24:04.516 they both said almost exactly the same thing, almost exactly 0:24:04.556 --> 0:24:10.116 the same way. And they said they both acknowledged that 0:24:10.956 --> 0:24:14.356 I'm certain this will be a distinct minority of views 0:24:14.396 --> 0:24:16.756 that you're going to hear if you talk to other people, 0:24:17.196 --> 0:24:20.316 almost anybody else will tell you not to do surgery 0:24:20.316 --> 0:24:24.516 and that you can't do surgery. But they're wrong. And 0:24:25.916 --> 0:24:28.996 a factor in it was they also both said, your 0:24:29.236 --> 0:24:36.756 chance of beating this isn't great, but it's nonexistent if 0:24:36.756 --> 0:24:43.636 you don't have surgery, and mattered a lot to me, 0:24:43.716 --> 0:24:46.676 and you know in the other calls, again good doctors, 0:24:47.276 --> 0:24:52.996 experienced doctors, but saying likely of being successful almost nothing. 0:24:54.636 --> 0:24:56.956 Not we know from the start we're not going to 0:24:56.996 --> 0:25:00.436 be able to get it all out. It's going to 0:25:00.476 --> 0:25:03.476 give you with a lot of difficult side effects. Then 0:25:03.516 --> 0:25:05.956 you're going to have to start these other treatments. The 0:25:06.036 --> 0:25:08.876 side effects for the follow up treatments will be compounding 0:25:09.276 --> 0:25:12.556 with the side effect you're having after surgery. And I 0:25:12.596 --> 0:25:17.236 remember an oncologist thing to me, it is the absolute 0:25:17.276 --> 0:25:19.316 worst course of action you can take. 0:25:20.476 --> 0:25:23.516 So what was different about these two guys who disagreed. 0:25:25.996 --> 0:25:32.436 It's a funny thing because it it really does relate 0:25:32.476 --> 0:25:41.996 to my life experience and my work. Confident, clear, concise, unemotional, definitive, 0:25:43.516 --> 0:25:49.876 and convincing, not just words and manner, but factually the 0:25:49.876 --> 0:25:56.516 way they presented it, and listening to that, combined with 0:25:56.876 --> 0:25:59.836 I had already reached the point with all the information 0:25:59.916 --> 0:26:03.116 I had, realizing that there were, you know, it's cloudy 0:26:03.156 --> 0:26:07.636 information and differences of opinion, and I thought, I know 0:26:07.716 --> 0:26:11.036 that I'm comfortable with that now, and that I thought 0:26:11.796 --> 0:26:14.236 based here. You know, I don't think I ever took 0:26:14.236 --> 0:26:18.436 a science class in high school or college, but the 0:26:18.556 --> 0:26:22.036 science convinced me there was a very good chance that 0:26:22.076 --> 0:26:28.756 these doctors were wrong, that these tests had flaws, that 0:26:28.836 --> 0:26:31.556 some of it just didn't add up in the ways 0:26:31.596 --> 0:26:34.596 that it had been looked at. And I combined my 0:26:34.676 --> 0:26:37.916 own instincts, my own reading and information, with the way 0:26:37.956 --> 0:26:42.476 these two doctors talked, and I thought, how about my 0:26:42.516 --> 0:26:45.076 life on them? 0:26:51.236 --> 0:26:54.636