1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I have a friend named Dan. I've known him 2 00:00:23,196 --> 00:00:27,076 Speaker 1: for years. He's in his seventies, lives outside Washington, d C. 3 00:00:27,516 --> 00:00:31,396 Speaker 1: He's in the crisis communications business. Companies call him in 4 00:00:31,396 --> 00:00:33,916 Speaker 1: when they have a big problem. In fact, that's how 5 00:00:33,996 --> 00:00:36,276 Speaker 1: I met him. I was working on a story about 6 00:00:36,276 --> 00:00:39,396 Speaker 1: one of his cases and he called me up. Dan 7 00:00:39,476 --> 00:00:42,196 Speaker 1: and I talk all the time. And last of all, 8 00:00:42,476 --> 00:00:44,996 Speaker 1: he said something to me in passing about having to 9 00:00:45,036 --> 00:00:48,276 Speaker 1: go for a bunch of tests. He didn't say why. 10 00:00:48,796 --> 00:00:50,116 Speaker 1: It didn't seem like a big deal. 11 00:00:51,396 --> 00:00:57,116 Speaker 2: The last many my internest told me that he was 12 00:00:57,156 --> 00:01:00,836 Speaker 2: pretty sure I had probably cancer, and for me, it 13 00:01:00,916 --> 00:01:04,196 Speaker 2: was a I can't say it was a nothing reaction, 14 00:01:04,316 --> 00:01:07,716 Speaker 2: but it was certainly a very modest reaction. I said 15 00:01:07,716 --> 00:01:11,796 Speaker 2: to him, isn't this a minor league cancers? And isn't 16 00:01:11,836 --> 00:01:15,276 Speaker 2: it a write of passage if you're a man my age? 17 00:01:15,676 --> 00:01:18,996 Speaker 2: And that's how I thought about it, And it was 18 00:01:19,076 --> 00:01:25,396 Speaker 2: reinforced when I would connected with the urologist who said 19 00:01:25,396 --> 00:01:28,996 Speaker 2: to me anytime in the next few months, have an MRI. 20 00:01:31,156 --> 00:01:35,476 Speaker 2: So I thought of it as a minor thing, and 21 00:01:36,236 --> 00:01:42,756 Speaker 2: my first contact with my expert reinforced that. So I 22 00:01:42,796 --> 00:01:46,116 Speaker 2: didn't even bother to do anything until August. From May 23 00:01:46,116 --> 00:01:51,196 Speaker 2: to August, and I go a blood test, to an MRI, 24 00:01:51,636 --> 00:01:55,676 Speaker 2: to a biopsy, to a pet scan, and then it was, yeah, 25 00:01:55,716 --> 00:02:01,956 Speaker 2: you got it. And then the next deal was you 26 00:02:03,156 --> 00:02:07,756 Speaker 2: should just go and get some radiation and some hormone therapy, 27 00:02:08,436 --> 00:02:10,676 Speaker 2: and it was and I had to draw it out 28 00:02:10,676 --> 00:02:13,676 Speaker 2: of the physician and it was a casual matter of fact, 29 00:02:14,396 --> 00:02:16,356 Speaker 2: and that was sort of dumped in my lap at 30 00:02:16,356 --> 00:02:16,756 Speaker 2: that point. 31 00:02:17,916 --> 00:02:21,356 Speaker 1: But at a certain point something nagged at him. He 32 00:02:21,436 --> 00:02:24,356 Speaker 1: wasn't sure why, since everything thus far had been straightforward, 33 00:02:24,716 --> 00:02:26,116 Speaker 1: so he started calling around. 34 00:02:26,836 --> 00:02:28,596 Speaker 2: But as I was going through it, because of my 35 00:02:28,716 --> 00:02:31,636 Speaker 2: work and friends, I've had lots of health clients and 36 00:02:31,756 --> 00:02:34,876 Speaker 2: education clients, as you know, I asked somebody just to 37 00:02:34,996 --> 00:02:39,756 Speaker 2: look at it to make sure there wasn't something. And 38 00:02:39,796 --> 00:02:43,076 Speaker 2: I was even embarrassed and hesitant to ask because I 39 00:02:43,076 --> 00:02:47,116 Speaker 2: thought it's such a minor problem. It felt like an imposition. 40 00:02:47,156 --> 00:02:49,396 Speaker 2: And my friend wanted to do it, and I was 41 00:02:49,436 --> 00:02:56,316 Speaker 2: even hesitant and reluctant, and a doctor which I will 42 00:02:56,396 --> 00:02:58,676 Speaker 2: name doctor Master Emory, looked at it and said, you 43 00:02:58,716 --> 00:03:01,236 Speaker 2: have a big problem, and you have an urgent problem, 44 00:03:01,996 --> 00:03:05,516 Speaker 2: and it was like that and he said, if you 45 00:03:05,596 --> 00:03:08,116 Speaker 2: were my patient, I would have had you in my 46 00:03:08,236 --> 00:03:13,076 Speaker 2: surgical suite last week, but you have an urgent matter. 47 00:03:14,676 --> 00:03:17,716 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 48 00:03:17,956 --> 00:03:22,556 Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode, where 49 00:03:22,596 --> 00:03:25,676 Speaker 1: we explore how and when trust decisions are made, is 50 00:03:25,716 --> 00:03:29,076 Speaker 1: sponsored by PayPal Open, Trusted by consumers, built for all 51 00:03:29,116 --> 00:03:31,716 Speaker 1: business for over twenty five years, they've been at the 52 00:03:31,756 --> 00:03:35,756 Speaker 1: forefront of commerce, helping merchants of all sizes grow. So 53 00:03:35,916 --> 00:03:39,356 Speaker 1: wherever a commerce moves next, you can rest assured PayPal 54 00:03:39,436 --> 00:03:43,596 Speaker 1: Open has your back. Head to paypalopen dot com to 55 00:03:43,716 --> 00:03:49,316 Speaker 1: learn more. Over several episodes, we'll dive into the topic 56 00:03:49,436 --> 00:03:52,836 Speaker 1: of trust, where it comes from, the moment it's earned, 57 00:03:53,396 --> 00:03:56,716 Speaker 1: and how we decide who to trust or not. And 58 00:03:56,796 --> 00:03:59,636 Speaker 1: I wanted to start with the story of my friend Dan, who, 59 00:03:59,676 --> 00:04:01,436 Speaker 1: out of the blue one day was told that a 60 00:04:01,476 --> 00:04:05,716 Speaker 1: problem he thought was routine was actually threatening his life. 61 00:04:05,876 --> 00:04:10,116 Speaker 1: And you had to decide, under the most emotionally overwhelming 62 00:04:10,236 --> 00:04:13,156 Speaker 1: circumstances imaginable, who to trust. 63 00:04:18,876 --> 00:04:24,316 Speaker 2: He looked at my files, looked at my data, and said, 64 00:04:24,356 --> 00:04:27,276 Speaker 2: you have a big proble. And he said others will 65 00:04:27,316 --> 00:04:30,276 Speaker 2: tell you that you don't, but I'm telling you you do. 66 00:04:31,436 --> 00:04:34,076 Speaker 1: One of the many interesting things about Dan is that 67 00:04:34,156 --> 00:04:36,756 Speaker 1: if I told you his full name and you googled him, 68 00:04:37,276 --> 00:04:41,396 Speaker 1: almost nothing would come up. He doesn't advertise, he doesn't 69 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:44,876 Speaker 1: give interviews, he doesn't go to fancy gaullas. There are 70 00:04:44,876 --> 00:04:48,476 Speaker 1: no pictures of him anywhere. He's almost invisible. But in 71 00:04:48,476 --> 00:04:51,236 Speaker 1: the very rarefied world of Fortune five, when the companies 72 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:56,276 Speaker 1: and CEOs and political big wigs, everyone knows Dan because 73 00:04:56,556 --> 00:04:59,036 Speaker 1: he's the guy you call when you have a problem 74 00:04:59,076 --> 00:05:00,436 Speaker 1: you don't know how to deal with. 75 00:05:02,076 --> 00:05:07,796 Speaker 2: For the past nearly forty years I have lived. That's 76 00:05:07,836 --> 00:05:10,196 Speaker 2: what I referred to as the intersection of bad luck 77 00:05:10,196 --> 00:05:16,316 Speaker 2: and bad judgment. I help people who have managed to 78 00:05:16,396 --> 00:05:22,756 Speaker 2: get themselves into really serious trouble. The kind of trouble 79 00:05:22,796 --> 00:05:27,076 Speaker 2: that is career defining, can be threatening to the existence 80 00:05:27,116 --> 00:05:30,596 Speaker 2: of a business, brings a level of scrutiny from the 81 00:05:30,636 --> 00:05:36,876 Speaker 2: Justice Department or Congress or media that is inescapable, usually 82 00:05:36,996 --> 00:05:40,556 Speaker 2: to borrow the words of Fank Williams. These are folks 83 00:05:40,596 --> 00:05:41,996 Speaker 2: who see their name at the top of the. 84 00:05:41,916 --> 00:05:45,596 Speaker 1: Page and you are you're not going to blow your 85 00:05:45,636 --> 00:05:50,676 Speaker 1: run horn. But literally, like if some big shot person 86 00:05:50,756 --> 00:05:55,636 Speaker 1: gets in trouble, you're like tak Ghostbusters. It's like Dan 87 00:05:55,716 --> 00:05:57,356 Speaker 1: gets the call. You get the first call A so, 88 00:05:57,436 --> 00:05:58,996 Speaker 1: as I could tell, for. 89 00:05:59,116 --> 00:06:02,876 Speaker 2: The last twenty five thirty years, I get the call. 90 00:06:03,156 --> 00:06:03,636 Speaker 1: Yeah. 91 00:06:03,916 --> 00:06:08,556 Speaker 2: And there have been many times where I will see 92 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:13,756 Speaker 2: a story break and I'm automatically processing it, reacting what 93 00:06:13,796 --> 00:06:15,356 Speaker 2: do I think? What do I think is going on? 94 00:06:16,436 --> 00:06:19,756 Speaker 2: And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking I 95 00:06:19,836 --> 00:06:22,556 Speaker 2: might get a call. In many cases, I do get 96 00:06:22,556 --> 00:06:26,196 Speaker 2: a call. And whether it's the General Motors bankruptcy, or 97 00:06:26,236 --> 00:06:29,956 Speaker 2: the Paterno Penn State case, or the BP oil spill, 98 00:06:30,516 --> 00:06:34,196 Speaker 2: the Equifax data breach, you know, either limited what I 99 00:06:34,196 --> 00:06:37,876 Speaker 2: can say about what I did, but I get the call. 100 00:06:38,396 --> 00:06:40,316 Speaker 1: Now, why do you Let's talk about this in the 101 00:06:40,356 --> 00:06:45,676 Speaker 1: context of trust. So you've spent your life walking into boardrooms, 102 00:06:45,716 --> 00:06:48,596 Speaker 1: executive suites, what have you to talk to people who, 103 00:06:49,156 --> 00:06:53,556 Speaker 1: in most cases you have never met before? Right, so 104 00:06:53,876 --> 00:06:57,836 Speaker 1: people just know you by reputation. Why do they trust you? 105 00:07:00,276 --> 00:07:03,516 Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing. I've thought about it sometimes because 106 00:07:03,556 --> 00:07:09,596 Speaker 2: I've wondered about misplaced trust. The genuine trust comes through 107 00:07:09,596 --> 00:07:15,236 Speaker 2: the process. It isn't in the beginning. It's hope, and 108 00:07:15,276 --> 00:07:19,196 Speaker 2: its panic and it's fear, and they've been told by 109 00:07:19,236 --> 00:07:23,076 Speaker 2: somebody that they do trust. This is the guy you need. 110 00:07:24,036 --> 00:07:28,516 Speaker 2: They know they're in such a difficult spot, they don't 111 00:07:28,516 --> 00:07:31,316 Speaker 2: know where to turn. They are desperate to find somebody 112 00:07:31,316 --> 00:07:33,516 Speaker 2: who can help them. You know. An irony for me 113 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:37,316 Speaker 2: in my medical situation is I used to say to 114 00:07:38,076 --> 00:07:43,836 Speaker 2: clients sort of jokingly, that I'm a urologist and that 115 00:07:44,076 --> 00:07:46,796 Speaker 2: I'm the person you don't really want to see. But 116 00:07:46,876 --> 00:07:50,196 Speaker 2: when you need to see, there isn't anything more important 117 00:07:50,956 --> 00:07:52,916 Speaker 2: You want to see that neurologists and you want that 118 00:07:52,956 --> 00:07:56,796 Speaker 2: problem solved. There is a sense of urgency that is 119 00:07:57,396 --> 00:08:02,116 Speaker 2: focusing in a way that nothing else matters. And then 120 00:08:02,156 --> 00:08:06,156 Speaker 2: I end up in this situation needing my urologists. But 121 00:08:06,916 --> 00:08:13,716 Speaker 2: it is what I What I know is they know 122 00:08:13,996 --> 00:08:18,876 Speaker 2: quickly if they can trust me. M hm. They can 123 00:08:18,916 --> 00:08:23,916 Speaker 2: tell your tone, the first things you say are so 124 00:08:24,036 --> 00:08:31,996 Speaker 2: critically important. The manner, your style, your sense of confidence, 125 00:08:33,276 --> 00:08:38,076 Speaker 2: all those things communicate absolutely instantly. People are processing is 126 00:08:38,116 --> 00:08:40,956 Speaker 2: this a person in my in the most critical situation 127 00:08:41,036 --> 00:08:43,476 Speaker 2: of my career? Should I give them time? Should I 128 00:08:43,476 --> 00:08:45,356 Speaker 2: give them face? Should I pay attention? 129 00:08:45,396 --> 00:08:47,876 Speaker 1: To what they're saying, and what is it in that moment? 130 00:08:47,996 --> 00:08:48,356 Speaker 2: Are you? 131 00:08:49,236 --> 00:08:52,636 Speaker 1: If you had to summarize as simply as possible, what 132 00:08:52,716 --> 00:08:56,156 Speaker 1: you're bringing to them in that moment, what is it? 133 00:08:55,876 --> 00:09:00,996 Speaker 2: It's a good question. It's a hard question because, as 134 00:09:01,996 --> 00:09:06,676 Speaker 2: I've explained, I will be the least knowledgeable person in 135 00:09:06,716 --> 00:09:11,356 Speaker 2: any room I'm in, and partly it's because I'm in 136 00:09:11,396 --> 00:09:15,756 Speaker 2: the rooms on calls, in meetings, in boardrooms with people 137 00:09:15,796 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 2: who are phenomenally experienced, capable, educated, credentialed leading scientists, engineers, MBAs, lawyers, CEOs, 138 00:09:27,836 --> 00:09:32,436 Speaker 2: board chairs, tremendously accomplished people, and they have a world 139 00:09:32,436 --> 00:09:35,916 Speaker 2: of advisors around them. They don't lack for counsel in 140 00:09:36,036 --> 00:09:40,316 Speaker 2: health counsel and the communications front, marketing, legal, outside advisors, 141 00:09:40,356 --> 00:09:43,196 Speaker 2: business consultants. So what do I bring. I don't have 142 00:09:43,236 --> 00:09:48,196 Speaker 2: any of those credentials. I bring a depth of experience 143 00:09:48,316 --> 00:09:52,956 Speaker 2: of being in truly, truly difficult situations hundreds of times 144 00:09:53,436 --> 00:09:55,156 Speaker 2: where the stakes are so big and the pressure is 145 00:09:55,156 --> 00:09:58,756 Speaker 2: so great. I think if I have a particular skill, 146 00:09:58,796 --> 00:10:05,356 Speaker 2: it is synthesizing, clarifying. I hope and believe that I 147 00:10:05,436 --> 00:10:10,396 Speaker 2: bring a common sense perspective to it, which relates to 148 00:10:10,436 --> 00:10:15,316 Speaker 2: the clarity, and I want to help them prioritize what 149 00:10:15,436 --> 00:10:19,316 Speaker 2: they're doing and how they're processing it. And then inevitably 150 00:10:19,356 --> 00:10:22,396 Speaker 2: I'm involved in what do you say about it? What 151 00:10:22,436 --> 00:10:24,476 Speaker 2: do you say? Who says it, when do you say it? 152 00:10:24,996 --> 00:10:27,756 Speaker 2: How do you communicate that? And that It can sound easy, 153 00:10:27,796 --> 00:10:31,196 Speaker 2: but then you've got all the technical aspects, the factual 154 00:10:31,276 --> 00:10:35,116 Speaker 2: side of that, You've got the legal considerations, the regulatory considerations, 155 00:10:35,676 --> 00:10:38,316 Speaker 2: and all those pressures are there. How can you help 156 00:10:38,436 --> 00:10:42,556 Speaker 2: them fight through that and get them to say something 157 00:10:43,276 --> 00:10:46,956 Speaker 2: that real people can understand. There's an honesty and an 158 00:10:46,996 --> 00:10:48,596 Speaker 2: integrity and a value to it. 159 00:10:49,276 --> 00:10:51,276 Speaker 1: In a meeting with a client, have you ever raised 160 00:10:51,276 --> 00:10:57,996 Speaker 1: your voice? No, you do have speaking of why it 161 00:10:58,076 --> 00:11:01,996 Speaker 1: is people trust you. You do radiate a kind of 162 00:11:02,836 --> 00:11:08,276 Speaker 1: calm and there's something dispassionate about the way you see 163 00:11:08,316 --> 00:11:10,916 Speaker 1: the world. And I imagining you're doing the people who 164 00:11:10,916 --> 00:11:12,836 Speaker 1: are often highly emotional. 165 00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:16,756 Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, I'm in a room where there's always 166 00:11:16,836 --> 00:11:22,676 Speaker 2: there's lots of screaming, there's jockeying. People are desperate to 167 00:11:23,996 --> 00:11:27,476 Speaker 2: sort of seeking an advisory role. Others are trying to 168 00:11:27,516 --> 00:11:30,996 Speaker 2: get out of it. There are people who are trying 169 00:11:30,996 --> 00:11:35,676 Speaker 2: to take credit, and there are people trying to lay blame, 170 00:11:36,556 --> 00:11:40,076 Speaker 2: and there's just tremendous emotion. You know, when I what 171 00:11:40,236 --> 00:11:43,516 Speaker 2: I know, I'll just tell you if it's a few 172 00:11:43,596 --> 00:11:47,196 Speaker 2: things I really have never talked about. I need to 173 00:11:47,236 --> 00:11:49,436 Speaker 2: get to a point where the CEO will tell me anything, 174 00:11:51,516 --> 00:11:54,876 Speaker 2: and I mean tell me the personal side, because the 175 00:11:54,636 --> 00:11:58,396 Speaker 2: the personal emotional toll of these things is never really 176 00:11:58,436 --> 00:12:00,476 Speaker 2: factored in and it plays a huge part in what 177 00:12:00,516 --> 00:12:05,276 Speaker 2: they're going through. So I I it's not as much 178 00:12:05,396 --> 00:12:07,276 Speaker 2: what I say is what I hear. I want I 179 00:12:07,316 --> 00:12:09,476 Speaker 2: want them to feel if they read some point where 180 00:12:09,476 --> 00:12:12,516 Speaker 2: they want to truly confide in me, that I know 181 00:12:15,596 --> 00:12:18,476 Speaker 2: I'm going to play a role. The other thing that 182 00:12:18,556 --> 00:12:23,596 Speaker 2: I know is it is absolutely essential for me to 183 00:12:23,676 --> 00:12:28,956 Speaker 2: be candid in my very first conversations, really candid. So 184 00:12:29,036 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier about do you tell them how bad 185 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:34,636 Speaker 2: it is? In a sense I do. I'm not telling 186 00:12:34,636 --> 00:12:37,756 Speaker 2: them something they don't know, but I want them to 187 00:12:37,756 --> 00:12:41,516 Speaker 2: know two things that I have a sense of the 188 00:12:41,556 --> 00:12:43,956 Speaker 2: situation without all the factual command that they have. I 189 00:12:43,996 --> 00:12:48,156 Speaker 2: have a sense of it, and that I am going 190 00:12:48,196 --> 00:12:52,636 Speaker 2: to be absolutely direct with them. I'm not trying to 191 00:12:52,756 --> 00:12:56,916 Speaker 2: shock I'm not trying to make them feel worse, but 192 00:12:56,956 --> 00:13:00,756 Speaker 2: I'm unafraid to tell them what I think. And that's 193 00:13:00,796 --> 00:13:05,156 Speaker 2: absolutely and those first literally, those first conversations, it's it's 194 00:13:05,556 --> 00:13:06,876 Speaker 2: critical to your role. 195 00:13:08,396 --> 00:13:11,756 Speaker 1: So you go and see doctor Master, and the tables 196 00:13:11,756 --> 00:13:17,356 Speaker 1: are turned. Dan had become the client, the person in 197 00:13:17,396 --> 00:13:21,396 Speaker 1: a state of emotional distress and confusion talking to a 198 00:13:21,436 --> 00:13:26,316 Speaker 1: stranger and trying to decide whether to trust him. We'll 199 00:13:26,356 --> 00:13:37,996 Speaker 1: be right back. This is fascinating with Dan because you 200 00:13:38,076 --> 00:13:40,436 Speaker 1: are in a moment. There's a moment here when you 201 00:13:40,516 --> 00:13:43,316 Speaker 1: start to treat this problem you're having in the same 202 00:13:43,316 --> 00:13:45,516 Speaker 1: way that you actually said this to me. There was 203 00:13:45,516 --> 00:13:47,876 Speaker 1: a moment when I started to treat this problem I 204 00:13:47,916 --> 00:13:49,956 Speaker 1: understood this was no different from the problems I deal 205 00:13:49,956 --> 00:13:50,636 Speaker 1: with in my work. 206 00:13:50,836 --> 00:13:52,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's when this whole thing turned. 207 00:13:53,276 --> 00:13:56,276 Speaker 1: Do you when do you have that sense of oh, 208 00:13:56,316 --> 00:13:58,196 Speaker 1: this is something I've been doing my whole life. 209 00:13:58,796 --> 00:14:01,236 Speaker 2: Well, so doctor Master is telling me I have a 210 00:14:01,236 --> 00:14:05,036 Speaker 2: serious problem, that it needs to be addressed, and that 211 00:14:05,156 --> 00:14:09,636 Speaker 2: I need surgery, but he's not the one to do it. 212 00:14:10,716 --> 00:14:13,876 Speaker 2: Then I followed up and I talked to two surgeons 213 00:14:15,076 --> 00:14:18,956 Speaker 2: who said to me, surgeries out of the question can't 214 00:14:18,996 --> 00:14:24,876 Speaker 2: be done, and that my problem was a lot more complicated, 215 00:14:24,916 --> 00:14:26,396 Speaker 2: a lot more advanced. 216 00:14:26,596 --> 00:14:31,996 Speaker 1: And now the script is flipped. Have changed dramatically. We've 217 00:14:31,996 --> 00:14:35,236 Speaker 1: gone from doctors shrugging to doctor saying it's so bad, 218 00:14:35,276 --> 00:14:38,996 Speaker 1: we don't even think we can do surgery right. And 219 00:14:39,036 --> 00:14:41,476 Speaker 1: when they say that, so, what are they telling you? 220 00:14:41,476 --> 00:14:43,076 Speaker 1: Your options are at that moment. 221 00:14:45,236 --> 00:14:51,156 Speaker 2: That you're gonna need other all the treatments that are available. 222 00:14:51,676 --> 00:14:54,916 Speaker 2: And they kept saying, Malcolm, it's a very interesting thing, 223 00:14:54,916 --> 00:14:58,516 Speaker 2: because you know, I pay again. It was my instincts. 224 00:14:59,356 --> 00:15:02,036 Speaker 2: I listen to exactly what they're saying and the way 225 00:15:02,076 --> 00:15:04,676 Speaker 2: they say it, in the order in which they're saying it. 226 00:15:05,836 --> 00:15:08,356 Speaker 2: The first thing they would say to me is we 227 00:15:08,396 --> 00:15:13,236 Speaker 2: can keep you alive. And that was meant as a 228 00:15:13,236 --> 00:15:16,996 Speaker 2: reassuring message. And it wasn't not because I feared death, 229 00:15:17,276 --> 00:15:21,596 Speaker 2: but because I thought they thought that I feared death. 230 00:15:22,676 --> 00:15:25,476 Speaker 2: And what I was worried about was quality of life 231 00:15:25,636 --> 00:15:29,516 Speaker 2: more than length of life. And consistently it was about 232 00:15:29,516 --> 00:15:31,156 Speaker 2: we're going to keep you alife. We can keep you alive, 233 00:15:31,996 --> 00:15:34,636 Speaker 2: and then it was but surgery is not an option, 234 00:15:34,676 --> 00:15:39,596 Speaker 2: you're too far gone, And then it was a radiation 235 00:15:40,236 --> 00:15:46,436 Speaker 2: extensive hormones the rest of my life in chemotherapy, and 236 00:15:47,516 --> 00:15:52,316 Speaker 2: an ordeal that would be I'm looking grateful for anything 237 00:15:52,316 --> 00:16:01,276 Speaker 2: but exceedingly unpleasant, a life that was tremendously compromised. So 238 00:16:01,516 --> 00:16:04,996 Speaker 2: I talked to these surgeons and their language was One 239 00:16:05,036 --> 00:16:07,716 Speaker 2: surgeon said, oh, oh no, no, no, no, no no. 240 00:16:08,556 --> 00:16:13,036 Speaker 2: Immediately after he told me, you know you can say 241 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:17,876 Speaker 2: alive you don't want the surgery, he said, I I 242 00:16:17,916 --> 00:16:20,076 Speaker 2: would be I would not want to do it, but 243 00:16:20,116 --> 00:16:21,516 Speaker 2: he said, I'll do it if you want me to. 244 00:16:23,596 --> 00:16:25,996 Speaker 2: And I don't, you know, but he literally said, I'll 245 00:16:25,996 --> 00:16:27,476 Speaker 2: do it if you if you really want me to. 246 00:16:28,516 --> 00:16:30,516 Speaker 2: And you know, no one of course is thinking of that. 247 00:16:31,036 --> 00:16:36,156 Speaker 2: A second surgeon that I talked to kept saying, and 248 00:16:36,756 --> 00:16:38,996 Speaker 2: I'm not exaggerating, I think he said it. I made 249 00:16:38,996 --> 00:16:42,316 Speaker 2: notes seven times in my I had a video chat 250 00:16:42,356 --> 00:16:47,076 Speaker 2: with him. He said, it's at least ninety percent that 251 00:16:47,156 --> 00:16:53,396 Speaker 2: I will not be successful, and he said it's probably below. 252 00:16:53,836 --> 00:16:57,996 Speaker 2: It's probably single digits to have any chance of success here. 253 00:16:58,276 --> 00:17:00,516 Speaker 2: And he was so worried that I wasn't hearing that. 254 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:03,356 Speaker 2: He kept repeating it over and over and over again. 255 00:17:03,956 --> 00:17:05,676 Speaker 2: So after I talked to them, I talked to another 256 00:17:05,716 --> 00:17:09,556 Speaker 2: doctor who said to me, finally the magical messy for me, 257 00:17:09,676 --> 00:17:12,476 Speaker 2: which is, you're the only one who can figure out 258 00:17:12,476 --> 00:17:14,716 Speaker 2: what to do here, Dan, the doctors can figure this 259 00:17:14,756 --> 00:17:19,716 Speaker 2: out for you. And I immediately understood what that meant, 260 00:17:20,476 --> 00:17:25,436 Speaker 2: and I was immediately comfortable. I thought, I distress. Interestingly, 261 00:17:25,956 --> 00:17:28,996 Speaker 2: the challenge was great, but the stress receded. I thought, 262 00:17:29,196 --> 00:17:32,116 Speaker 2: I know this, I know exactly what he's saying. What 263 00:17:32,196 --> 00:17:37,916 Speaker 2: did he mean, Not that I had been talking to 264 00:17:38,036 --> 00:17:44,476 Speaker 2: incompetent doctors, not that I was getting bad advice can 265 00:17:44,596 --> 00:17:47,676 Speaker 2: argue about the elements of it, but that it is 266 00:17:47,716 --> 00:17:54,956 Speaker 2: a problem that doesn't have necessarily obvious, clear advice attached 267 00:17:54,956 --> 00:17:58,676 Speaker 2: to it. That what no one had said, but which 268 00:17:58,716 --> 00:18:01,996 Speaker 2: I figured out the tests are not clear, they're not definitive, 269 00:18:02,036 --> 00:18:06,316 Speaker 2: they're not perfect, and that the science is incredibly complicated, 270 00:18:07,316 --> 00:18:11,436 Speaker 2: and that I could get extremely accomplished people from different 271 00:18:11,436 --> 00:18:17,916 Speaker 2: fields on collegists, pathologists, surgeons looking at this and they 272 00:18:17,956 --> 00:18:20,796 Speaker 2: could legitimately come to a wide range of different views. 273 00:18:21,236 --> 00:18:23,196 Speaker 2: I thought, I've lived my life in that room. I 274 00:18:23,276 --> 00:18:24,036 Speaker 2: know what that means. 275 00:18:26,396 --> 00:18:27,636 Speaker 1: So what was your next step? 276 00:18:29,316 --> 00:18:29,556 Speaker 2: Wait? 277 00:18:29,636 --> 00:18:32,316 Speaker 1: At the moment he says that so that's the moment 278 00:18:32,316 --> 00:18:34,356 Speaker 1: where you say, Okay, I've been here before. 279 00:18:34,556 --> 00:18:35,716 Speaker 2: No, I know another deal. 280 00:18:37,156 --> 00:18:39,436 Speaker 1: He was in a crisis, and what had he spent 281 00:18:39,596 --> 00:18:44,556 Speaker 1: his entire life doing solving crises? What was a change 282 00:18:44,556 --> 00:18:46,556 Speaker 1: in your perspective of that moment? Did you? 283 00:18:46,436 --> 00:18:48,556 Speaker 2: So? You said, had you tremendous comfort? 284 00:18:48,756 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 1: Yeah? 285 00:18:50,596 --> 00:18:57,436 Speaker 2: It was. It was. I am one hundred percent confident 286 00:18:57,516 --> 00:19:02,316 Speaker 2: and comfortable making this decision myself, not because I thought 287 00:19:02,356 --> 00:19:04,956 Speaker 2: I would be perfect or that I knew more than 288 00:19:04,956 --> 00:19:07,756 Speaker 2: the doctors. I knew that I didn't, but that I 289 00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:13,316 Speaker 2: knew the right process to go through to arrive at 290 00:19:13,316 --> 00:19:15,956 Speaker 2: the best conclusion I could arrive at, and I have. 291 00:19:16,396 --> 00:19:19,316 Speaker 2: It was. It was a tremendous calming experience for me. 292 00:19:20,356 --> 00:19:24,836 Speaker 2: But I was blessed because of this experience. Nothing I'd 293 00:19:24,876 --> 00:19:26,796 Speaker 2: ever planned on, nothing I would have ever thought about 294 00:19:27,036 --> 00:19:30,516 Speaker 2: when I started this. But I've been through it dozens 295 00:19:30,516 --> 00:19:33,196 Speaker 2: and dozens and dozens of times on incredibly complicated, high 296 00:19:33,196 --> 00:19:38,676 Speaker 2: stakes issues, careers, billions of dollars, and that I had 297 00:19:38,676 --> 00:19:42,756 Speaker 2: a network of people that I could call on for perspective, 298 00:19:43,276 --> 00:19:45,996 Speaker 2: so I knew I would get good advice. So I 299 00:19:46,156 --> 00:19:48,876 Speaker 2: just from that moment, I just said, this is my 300 00:19:48,956 --> 00:19:50,396 Speaker 2: newest case assignment. 301 00:19:51,036 --> 00:19:56,436 Speaker 1: First trust was misplaced trust. Second trust stage was you 302 00:19:56,476 --> 00:19:59,156 Speaker 1: can trust yourself. I Dan can trust myself on this. 303 00:20:00,116 --> 00:20:02,636 Speaker 2: I can trust myself in this process. 304 00:20:04,036 --> 00:20:07,076 Speaker 1: So he started over doing exactly the thing he always 305 00:20:07,116 --> 00:20:09,676 Speaker 1: does when he takes on a new case. He read 306 00:20:09,716 --> 00:20:12,276 Speaker 1: everything there was to read. He went through his medical 307 00:20:12,276 --> 00:20:14,836 Speaker 1: records with a fine tooth comb, flagging the things that 308 00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:18,876 Speaker 1: he didn't understand or that needed clarification. He was guided 309 00:20:18,916 --> 00:20:22,676 Speaker 1: by one of the foundational principles of his work. First 310 00:20:22,756 --> 00:20:28,796 Speaker 1: facts are always wrong, always wrong, always wrong, always wait. 311 00:20:28,836 --> 00:20:31,556 Speaker 1: Describe explain that a little bit, because it's super relevant here, 312 00:20:31,556 --> 00:20:35,076 Speaker 1: because in your case, the first facts are wrong, wrong, wrong. 313 00:20:35,196 --> 00:20:36,356 Speaker 1: Why are first facts wrong? 314 00:20:37,476 --> 00:20:42,556 Speaker 2: Well, it's the kind of thing you know. I had 315 00:20:42,596 --> 00:20:45,876 Speaker 2: to learn through experience. Again, you're in a room. You're 316 00:20:46,076 --> 00:20:51,636 Speaker 2: brilliant doctors, brilliant engineers, m b as, fabulous lawyers outside 317 00:20:51,716 --> 00:20:57,636 Speaker 2: counts you would and so when they're telling you something, 318 00:20:58,516 --> 00:21:04,556 Speaker 2: you believe it. You're based on their credibility, their integrity, 319 00:21:04,636 --> 00:21:07,436 Speaker 2: their experience. The problem is where did they get what 320 00:21:07,516 --> 00:21:14,156 Speaker 2: they know? In a crisis. It's coming too fast? How's 321 00:21:14,196 --> 00:21:18,236 Speaker 2: it being processed? How thorough is it? How much can 322 00:21:18,276 --> 00:21:22,716 Speaker 2: you know, and how's it being interpreted, Who's interpreted And 323 00:21:23,276 --> 00:21:27,876 Speaker 2: sometimes there could be some obvious bias. Sometimes there's unintentional 324 00:21:28,876 --> 00:21:33,916 Speaker 2: a bias. But what I always know is you don't 325 00:21:33,916 --> 00:21:36,956 Speaker 2: have it all. What you think you have part of 326 00:21:36,996 --> 00:21:42,396 Speaker 2: it's wrong and you need to be extremely careful decisions 327 00:21:42,436 --> 00:21:45,116 Speaker 2: you're making based on those facts and what you're saying, 328 00:21:45,756 --> 00:21:47,996 Speaker 2: because you're going to be reversing some of those decisions. 329 00:21:48,036 --> 00:21:51,116 Speaker 2: You're going to be eating some of those words. And Malcolm, 330 00:21:51,196 --> 00:21:54,316 Speaker 2: I never even thought about that. In my case. I 331 00:21:54,356 --> 00:21:57,716 Speaker 2: did what all my clients do. Well, I've got serious 332 00:21:57,796 --> 00:22:02,236 Speaker 2: lap tests, I've got an important experienced doctor, I've got 333 00:22:02,596 --> 00:22:05,756 Speaker 2: other experts who have looked at it. Surely these things 334 00:22:06,636 --> 00:22:08,956 Speaker 2: are right, you can rely on them. And I did, 335 00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:10,836 Speaker 2: and I was absolutely wrong. 336 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:14,196 Speaker 1: What he learned was that the test that everyone was 337 00:22:14,276 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 1: using to make sense of his case, where was his cancer? 338 00:22:17,676 --> 00:22:20,796 Speaker 1: How bad was it? How much had it spread or flawed? 339 00:22:21,516 --> 00:22:24,996 Speaker 1: Not because of anyone's incompetence, but just because trying to 340 00:22:25,036 --> 00:22:27,836 Speaker 1: get an accurate picture of cancer when you first find 341 00:22:27,876 --> 00:22:31,876 Speaker 1: it is really really hard. And that what happens is 342 00:22:31,916 --> 00:22:35,436 Speaker 1: when doctors speak to their patients, they sometimes forget to 343 00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:38,956 Speaker 1: communicate this fact, they pretend that they know something for 344 00:22:39,116 --> 00:22:43,316 Speaker 1: certain when they actually don't, which meant that you couldn't 345 00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:46,276 Speaker 1: put your trust in the results of biopsies and scans. 346 00:22:46,636 --> 00:22:50,956 Speaker 1: You were of necessity in the world of subjectivity and judgment. 347 00:22:51,756 --> 00:22:54,836 Speaker 1: And Dan knew all about the world of subjectivity and judgment. 348 00:22:55,516 --> 00:22:58,956 Speaker 1: It was where he had spent his entire career. Then, 349 00:22:59,236 --> 00:23:01,796 Speaker 1: when he felt that he was at least informed enough 350 00:23:01,796 --> 00:23:04,756 Speaker 1: to ask the right questions, he put together a list 351 00:23:04,796 --> 00:23:08,036 Speaker 1: of doctors he wanted to interview, put everything on hold 352 00:23:08,236 --> 00:23:11,476 Speaker 1: for two months, and had a zoom call with one 353 00:23:11,516 --> 00:23:16,436 Speaker 1: specialist after another. So you you go out, how many 354 00:23:16,436 --> 00:23:17,396 Speaker 1: doctors do you interview? 355 00:23:19,196 --> 00:23:24,076 Speaker 2: I had conversations with eighteen doctors, eighteen eighteen. 356 00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:29,956 Speaker 1: And of those eighteen, how many told you? Can you 357 00:23:30,036 --> 00:23:32,716 Speaker 1: kind of quantify what they told you? Like, how many 358 00:23:32,756 --> 00:23:38,676 Speaker 1: told you surgery were Treatnteen fifteen told you what don't 359 00:23:38,676 --> 00:23:40,076 Speaker 1: do surgery? Don't do surgery? 360 00:23:41,316 --> 00:23:43,276 Speaker 2: One was split and two said yes. 361 00:23:44,636 --> 00:23:46,876 Speaker 1: Tell me about the two who said yes. 362 00:23:48,956 --> 00:23:53,676 Speaker 2: It was And I never shared the information between the 363 00:23:53,676 --> 00:24:00,916 Speaker 2: two of them. I want to just objective views. And 364 00:24:00,956 --> 00:24:04,516 Speaker 2: they both said almost exactly the same thing, almost exactly 365 00:24:04,556 --> 00:24:10,116 Speaker 2: the same way. And they said they both acknowledged that 366 00:24:10,956 --> 00:24:14,356 Speaker 2: I'm certain this will be a distinct minority of views 367 00:24:14,396 --> 00:24:16,756 Speaker 2: that you're going to hear if you talk to other people, 368 00:24:17,196 --> 00:24:20,316 Speaker 2: almost anybody else will tell you not to do surgery 369 00:24:20,316 --> 00:24:24,516 Speaker 2: and that you can't do surgery. But they're wrong. And 370 00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:28,996 Speaker 2: a factor in it was they also both said, your 371 00:24:29,236 --> 00:24:36,756 Speaker 2: chance of beating this isn't great, but it's nonexistent if 372 00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:43,636 Speaker 2: you don't have surgery, and mattered a lot to me, 373 00:24:43,716 --> 00:24:46,676 Speaker 2: and you know in the other calls, again good doctors, 374 00:24:47,276 --> 00:24:52,996 Speaker 2: experienced doctors, but saying likely of being successful almost nothing. 375 00:24:54,636 --> 00:24:56,956 Speaker 2: Not we know from the start we're not going to 376 00:24:56,996 --> 00:25:00,436 Speaker 2: be able to get it all out. It's going to 377 00:25:00,476 --> 00:25:03,476 Speaker 2: give you with a lot of difficult side effects. Then 378 00:25:03,516 --> 00:25:05,956 Speaker 2: you're going to have to start these other treatments. The 379 00:25:06,036 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 2: side effects for the follow up treatments will be compounding 380 00:25:09,276 --> 00:25:12,556 Speaker 2: with the side effect you're having after surgery. And I 381 00:25:12,596 --> 00:25:17,236 Speaker 2: remember an oncologist thing to me, it is the absolute 382 00:25:17,276 --> 00:25:19,316 Speaker 2: worst course of action you can take. 383 00:25:20,476 --> 00:25:23,516 Speaker 1: So what was different about these two guys who disagreed. 384 00:25:25,996 --> 00:25:32,436 Speaker 2: It's a funny thing because it it really does relate 385 00:25:32,476 --> 00:25:41,996 Speaker 2: to my life experience and my work. Confident, clear, concise, unemotional, definitive, 386 00:25:43,516 --> 00:25:49,876 Speaker 2: and convincing, not just words and manner, but factually the 387 00:25:49,876 --> 00:25:56,516 Speaker 2: way they presented it, and listening to that, combined with 388 00:25:56,876 --> 00:25:59,836 Speaker 2: I had already reached the point with all the information 389 00:25:59,916 --> 00:26:03,116 Speaker 2: I had, realizing that there were, you know, it's cloudy 390 00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:07,636 Speaker 2: information and differences of opinion, and I thought, I know 391 00:26:07,716 --> 00:26:11,036 Speaker 2: that I'm comfortable with that now, and that I thought 392 00:26:11,796 --> 00:26:14,236 Speaker 2: based here. You know, I don't think I ever took 393 00:26:14,236 --> 00:26:18,436 Speaker 2: a science class in high school or college, but the 394 00:26:18,556 --> 00:26:22,036 Speaker 2: science convinced me there was a very good chance that 395 00:26:22,076 --> 00:26:28,756 Speaker 2: these doctors were wrong, that these tests had flaws, that 396 00:26:28,836 --> 00:26:31,556 Speaker 2: some of it just didn't add up in the ways 397 00:26:31,596 --> 00:26:34,596 Speaker 2: that it had been looked at. And I combined my 398 00:26:34,676 --> 00:26:37,916 Speaker 2: own instincts, my own reading and information, with the way 399 00:26:37,956 --> 00:26:42,476 Speaker 2: these two doctors talked, and I thought, how about my 400 00:26:42,516 --> 00:26:45,076 Speaker 2: life on them? 401 00:26:51,236 --> 00:26:54,636 Speaker 1: Then ended up choosing a surgeon at Duke University. He 402 00:26:54,716 --> 00:26:57,996 Speaker 1: wasn't a prostate specialist. He was just someone who did 403 00:26:58,076 --> 00:27:01,956 Speaker 1: complex cancer cases of all kinds. He was used to 404 00:27:01,956 --> 00:27:07,596 Speaker 1: looking at things that seemed impossible. He has a different lens. Yes, 405 00:27:08,116 --> 00:27:13,396 Speaker 1: he seemed broader range, presumably of problematic and. 406 00:27:13,356 --> 00:27:16,996 Speaker 2: A good That's something I can relate to I'm in rooms. 407 00:27:17,676 --> 00:27:21,916 Speaker 2: You know, years ago, Malcolm, CEO of Disney, said we 408 00:27:21,916 --> 00:27:24,156 Speaker 2: would never be good at handling a crisis because we've 409 00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:27,236 Speaker 2: never had one. And I thought, that can't be true. 410 00:27:27,996 --> 00:27:33,076 Speaker 2: It can't be true. You're Disney. And what I realized 411 00:27:33,116 --> 00:27:37,796 Speaker 2: in most of the rooms I've ever been in, they've 412 00:27:37,796 --> 00:27:43,676 Speaker 2: never had bet your career, bet the company crisis. We 413 00:27:43,836 --> 00:27:47,036 Speaker 2: think that everybody has. You've had all kinds of tests, 414 00:27:47,116 --> 00:27:53,116 Speaker 2: but for most people it's a new experience, or the 415 00:27:53,436 --> 00:27:54,516 Speaker 2: stakes are so big. 416 00:27:54,636 --> 00:27:56,916 Speaker 1: Are you talking about the doctor? So in this case, 417 00:27:57,236 --> 00:27:59,396 Speaker 1: the doctor had seen yes. 418 00:28:01,196 --> 00:28:08,756 Speaker 2: And I have been in hundreds of boardrooms where I'm 419 00:28:08,796 --> 00:28:13,116 Speaker 2: looking to CEO and he or she's wondering, is this 420 00:28:13,196 --> 00:28:14,596 Speaker 2: the end of my career? Is this how I'm going 421 00:28:14,636 --> 00:28:16,876 Speaker 2: to be defined? Am I going to lose my net worth? 422 00:28:16,876 --> 00:28:18,476 Speaker 2: Am I going to go to jail? Am I going 423 00:28:18,516 --> 00:28:20,956 Speaker 2: to be humiliated in front of Congress? Am I going 424 00:28:20,996 --> 00:28:24,796 Speaker 2: to be embarrassed? At my with my family? That fear 425 00:28:26,236 --> 00:28:29,916 Speaker 2: is there, And you know, I've had them say to me, 426 00:28:30,556 --> 00:28:34,076 Speaker 2: my god. My communications people are under their desks, they're 427 00:28:34,076 --> 00:28:37,676 Speaker 2: scared to death. My lawyers are arguing with each other, 428 00:28:39,356 --> 00:28:43,516 Speaker 2: my board strong differences of opinions there, and then you 429 00:28:43,556 --> 00:28:46,636 Speaker 2: know what you also have in those situations is they've 430 00:28:46,636 --> 00:28:50,956 Speaker 2: got their friends, their neighbors, their country club colleagues, their 431 00:28:50,996 --> 00:28:56,196 Speaker 2: their their business peers and friends. Somebody inevitably says to me, 432 00:28:57,276 --> 00:29:00,676 Speaker 2: my wife's brother's neighbor's cousin says, I should do X. 433 00:29:01,556 --> 00:29:04,436 Speaker 2: You've got it coming in from all directions. So you're 434 00:29:04,476 --> 00:29:08,356 Speaker 2: trying to figure out who do I trust. As I've 435 00:29:09,196 --> 00:29:12,236 Speaker 2: communicate to you before, the facts are wrong one hundred 436 00:29:12,236 --> 00:29:14,796 Speaker 2: percent guarantee you you don't have all the facts, and 437 00:29:14,876 --> 00:29:16,316 Speaker 2: some of the facts you think you have it wrong. 438 00:29:17,316 --> 00:29:19,596 Speaker 2: So how am I supposed to make a decision now? 439 00:29:20,836 --> 00:29:23,916 Speaker 2: And so I end up with this surgeon, and he 440 00:29:24,276 --> 00:29:27,476 Speaker 2: broke it into two pieces. Can I do the surgery technically? 441 00:29:27,556 --> 00:29:30,556 Speaker 2: Absolutely yes? Is the surgeon going to be a success? 442 00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:38,836 Speaker 2: Different question, different questions? Will it save you? You know, 443 00:29:38,956 --> 00:29:42,156 Speaker 2: that's a whole separate conversation from can I perform the 444 00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:46,396 Speaker 2: procedure and succeed at that? So that you can have 445 00:29:46,436 --> 00:29:48,756 Speaker 2: the chance to talk about these other things. So his 446 00:29:48,836 --> 00:29:52,756 Speaker 2: first was one hundred percent yes. His second was fifty 447 00:29:52,756 --> 00:29:56,876 Speaker 2: to fifty that it's going to help you at best, 448 00:29:57,516 --> 00:30:01,236 Speaker 2: and if the studies are what these other doctors are saying, 449 00:30:02,316 --> 00:30:07,116 Speaker 2: you do have a single digit likelihood to success. If 450 00:30:07,116 --> 00:30:12,356 Speaker 2: they're wrong, you could have fifty percent or better. So 451 00:30:12,396 --> 00:30:14,596 Speaker 2: it's how do you interpret all the information we have? 452 00:30:16,316 --> 00:30:19,556 Speaker 2: And then it was also saying to him, I've got 453 00:30:19,596 --> 00:30:22,196 Speaker 2: to have sort of the free reign to do whatever 454 00:30:22,236 --> 00:30:23,556 Speaker 2: I think I need to do once I get in. 455 00:30:24,236 --> 00:30:28,076 Speaker 1: And how quickly do you move from this is my 456 00:30:28,196 --> 00:30:31,476 Speaker 1: guy to the actual surgery. What's the time. 457 00:30:34,436 --> 00:30:41,596 Speaker 2: I by the time I spoke to him. One of 458 00:30:41,596 --> 00:30:43,996 Speaker 2: the things I liked about my conversation with him, I 459 00:30:44,116 --> 00:30:46,596 Speaker 2: was told that you should talk to this guy, and 460 00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:48,436 Speaker 2: he's confident he can help you. When I talked to him, 461 00:30:48,436 --> 00:30:51,516 Speaker 2: he said, oh, no, no, no, no, I'm not confident. I'm 462 00:30:51,556 --> 00:30:56,636 Speaker 2: confident I can do this procedure successfully. I can't give 463 00:30:56,676 --> 00:31:01,956 Speaker 2: you false confidence about your outcome. And that was helpful 464 00:31:01,996 --> 00:31:05,556 Speaker 2: to me. It was honest. I didn't need somebody. It's 465 00:31:05,836 --> 00:31:08,316 Speaker 2: another view of mine. People who tell you they can 466 00:31:08,356 --> 00:31:15,076 Speaker 2: solve your problem be extremely suspicious. Extremely suspicious. Your problem 467 00:31:15,196 --> 00:31:18,876 Speaker 2: is multi layers, evolved over a long period of time, 468 00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:22,556 Speaker 2: all kinds of dynamics at play, and so in this case, 469 00:31:24,116 --> 00:31:26,916 Speaker 2: I knew that he could do the surgery. I had 470 00:31:26,916 --> 00:31:31,076 Speaker 2: already factored all the calculations from the others. I knew 471 00:31:31,076 --> 00:31:34,196 Speaker 2: it was my only really good chance, and I had 472 00:31:34,316 --> 00:31:38,476 Speaker 2: concluded that the analysis I was getting was flawed from 473 00:31:38,476 --> 00:31:41,516 Speaker 2: the others, and I just I said, let's go. And 474 00:31:41,556 --> 00:31:44,956 Speaker 2: within three weeks I went from my first conversation with 475 00:31:44,996 --> 00:31:45,876 Speaker 2: them to having surgery. 476 00:31:46,796 --> 00:31:48,836 Speaker 1: Tell me what that first conversation you had with him 477 00:31:48,876 --> 00:31:49,956 Speaker 1: after the surgery was over. 478 00:31:50,556 --> 00:31:55,076 Speaker 2: The first thing was there were certain cancerous spots that 479 00:31:55,196 --> 00:31:56,676 Speaker 2: were in doubt. Could he get to them? And so 480 00:31:56,756 --> 00:31:58,876 Speaker 2: I needed to know immediately did you get them? And 481 00:31:58,876 --> 00:31:59,836 Speaker 2: he said, yes, got. 482 00:31:59,716 --> 00:32:02,156 Speaker 1: Them because the cancer had metastasized. 483 00:32:02,556 --> 00:32:08,996 Speaker 2: Ye got them. And then it was you know how far? 484 00:32:09,956 --> 00:32:14,196 Speaker 2: And he you know, he had to. He said, I 485 00:32:14,236 --> 00:32:20,076 Speaker 2: had a nip cut, trim move most of the things 486 00:32:20,116 --> 00:32:25,316 Speaker 2: inside you. I told him, thank you, But I'm as 487 00:32:25,316 --> 00:32:28,276 Speaker 2: partial to as many parts as I can keep. So 488 00:32:29,036 --> 00:32:34,316 Speaker 2: he had to do a lot, but he was confident 489 00:32:35,676 --> 00:32:38,676 Speaker 2: he got everything he wanted to get. And the initial 490 00:32:38,676 --> 00:32:41,116 Speaker 2: pathology after the surgery was positive. But you don't know, 491 00:32:41,756 --> 00:32:44,876 Speaker 2: but it was a It was exactly what he said, 492 00:32:44,916 --> 00:32:48,276 Speaker 2: which is the surgery was successful. Now we wait on 493 00:32:48,276 --> 00:32:53,716 Speaker 2: the outcomes, and and I was, I was relieved, but 494 00:32:53,796 --> 00:32:57,316 Speaker 2: I it. I don't want to sound overconfident, but it 495 00:32:57,356 --> 00:32:58,156 Speaker 2: was what I expected. 496 00:32:59,796 --> 00:33:02,876 Speaker 1: And how long I've forgotten now there was it was. 497 00:33:02,956 --> 00:33:04,036 Speaker 1: It was a six week. 498 00:33:04,716 --> 00:33:07,876 Speaker 2: Six weeks and you get a blood test and my 499 00:33:09,156 --> 00:33:12,316 Speaker 2: get a p s A score and mine had gone 500 00:33:12,356 --> 00:33:16,156 Speaker 2: down significantly. Was not in a great zone, but a 501 00:33:16,196 --> 00:33:20,196 Speaker 2: good zone at six weeks. And then at another six 502 00:33:20,276 --> 00:33:23,716 Speaker 2: weeks I went down and I you know, I have 503 00:33:23,956 --> 00:33:30,996 Speaker 2: my my text from him, which I will keep because 504 00:33:30,996 --> 00:33:32,836 Speaker 2: it's the only time I've ever gotten a text from 505 00:33:32,836 --> 00:33:36,756 Speaker 2: a doctor where he used miraculous three times and and 506 00:33:36,876 --> 00:33:40,436 Speaker 2: one paragraph to me for the outcome of my test scores. 507 00:33:41,636 --> 00:33:43,356 Speaker 1: I believe I got a screenshot at that one. 508 00:33:43,636 --> 00:33:49,076 Speaker 2: Yeah. So and my you know, my doctors, the two 509 00:33:50,036 --> 00:33:53,356 Speaker 2: they were like kids, high fiving, you know, over the 510 00:33:53,356 --> 00:33:57,156 Speaker 2: phone to each other. They both joined on a conference 511 00:33:57,196 --> 00:33:59,036 Speaker 2: call to call me to tell me the results. They 512 00:33:59,036 --> 00:34:00,356 Speaker 2: were ecstatic. 513 00:34:01,996 --> 00:34:05,596 Speaker 1: So there's there's three trust layers here. 514 00:34:05,636 --> 00:34:06,156 Speaker 2: There is. 515 00:34:08,716 --> 00:34:11,836 Speaker 1: The miss placed trust in the beginning, understanding that you 516 00:34:11,836 --> 00:34:18,916 Speaker 1: would you would offered, you would extended trust prematurely, both 517 00:34:18,956 --> 00:34:19,996 Speaker 1: to doctors, and. 518 00:34:20,116 --> 00:34:28,036 Speaker 2: She had assumed that trust was justified. Trust in the doctor, 519 00:34:28,156 --> 00:34:32,596 Speaker 2: trust in his experience, his approach, and trust in the tests. 520 00:34:33,196 --> 00:34:38,116 Speaker 2: That was misplaced, and and I'm you know, I'm more 521 00:34:38,236 --> 00:34:41,036 Speaker 2: critical of myself than I am of the doctors. 522 00:34:41,996 --> 00:34:46,876 Speaker 1: And then the second layer was understanding, I can trust 523 00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:49,596 Speaker 1: myself and this this is I notice I've done this, 524 00:34:49,796 --> 00:34:50,796 Speaker 1: I have experience in this. 525 00:34:51,396 --> 00:34:51,716 Speaker 2: Yes. 526 00:34:51,836 --> 00:34:55,316 Speaker 1: And then the third layer was, this is the person 527 00:34:56,196 --> 00:34:58,916 Speaker 1: who I'm going to place my trust in for this surgery. 528 00:34:59,796 --> 00:35:03,556 Speaker 2: It's exactly right. I mean, I trust myself. I don't 529 00:35:03,556 --> 00:35:05,596 Speaker 2: know how people. That may sound to people. It may 530 00:35:05,636 --> 00:35:10,076 Speaker 2: sound arrogant or naive or whatever. It's it was hard 531 00:35:10,116 --> 00:35:15,716 Speaker 2: earned from decades in rooms where people would turn to 532 00:35:15,716 --> 00:35:18,196 Speaker 2: me and say, no, what do you think? And if 533 00:35:18,196 --> 00:35:21,396 Speaker 2: you can't add value or what you're saying doesn't make sense, 534 00:35:22,116 --> 00:35:23,476 Speaker 2: you're going to be out of that room. You're never 535 00:35:23,476 --> 00:35:28,396 Speaker 2: going to be around. And my work was one hundred 536 00:35:28,396 --> 00:35:31,156 Speaker 2: percent of referral base. So if they don't have value 537 00:35:31,156 --> 00:35:33,316 Speaker 2: in the room, I don't have any I don't have 538 00:35:33,356 --> 00:35:36,636 Speaker 2: a career. So it was that, and then it was 539 00:35:37,196 --> 00:35:43,636 Speaker 2: the person and the process. He laid out what he 540 00:35:43,796 --> 00:35:46,116 Speaker 2: said he would do and how I would do it, 541 00:35:46,156 --> 00:35:49,796 Speaker 2: and what the equation was I'm putting all that together 542 00:35:50,116 --> 00:35:53,196 Speaker 2: along with my reading and analysis. I had a high 543 00:35:53,276 --> 00:35:56,076 Speaker 2: degree of confidence that there was the right choice, and 544 00:35:55,716 --> 00:35:58,076 Speaker 2: I can honestly say I didn't lose a moment's sleep, 545 00:35:58,676 --> 00:36:01,596 Speaker 2: had no second thoughts. I was certain I had chosen 546 00:36:01,636 --> 00:36:02,156 Speaker 2: the right course. 547 00:36:02,876 --> 00:36:05,436 Speaker 1: The idea that you didn't lose and have a moment's 548 00:36:05,476 --> 00:36:09,596 Speaker 1: sleep is is so I lost? 549 00:36:09,796 --> 00:36:10,196 Speaker 2: Why is this? 550 00:36:10,756 --> 00:36:13,596 Speaker 1: I lost more sleep over your condition you did. I 551 00:36:13,676 --> 00:36:15,516 Speaker 1: was making up in the middle of the night worrying 552 00:36:15,516 --> 00:36:17,516 Speaker 1: about you, and you're like sleeping like a baby. 553 00:36:18,396 --> 00:36:23,636 Speaker 2: Once I decided, I was truly confident. I can't be 554 00:36:23,796 --> 00:36:27,396 Speaker 2: confident that now it's going to turn out. I was 555 00:36:27,476 --> 00:36:29,716 Speaker 2: confident that I had all the information I need to 556 00:36:29,716 --> 00:36:34,516 Speaker 2: make an informed decision, that I had processed it thoughtfully 557 00:36:34,556 --> 00:36:38,436 Speaker 2: in a way that with the same rigor that I 558 00:36:38,436 --> 00:36:42,636 Speaker 2: would give to a client, and that it was the 559 00:36:42,676 --> 00:36:45,316 Speaker 2: best option available. What's going to be is what's going 560 00:36:45,356 --> 00:36:47,476 Speaker 2: to be. But that's what I came to, and with 561 00:36:47,596 --> 00:36:49,116 Speaker 2: that I was a patient. 562 00:36:49,916 --> 00:36:52,276 Speaker 1: In the span of six months, he went from you 563 00:36:52,276 --> 00:36:55,156 Speaker 1: should get this looked at at some point. Two, you 564 00:36:55,196 --> 00:36:59,116 Speaker 1: should put your affairs in order. Two, we can't find 565 00:36:59,116 --> 00:36:59,916 Speaker 1: any more cancer. 566 00:37:01,076 --> 00:37:09,196 Speaker 2: I think that I discounted the idea of instincts and 567 00:37:09,276 --> 00:37:13,516 Speaker 2: intuition in my work. I lived by it, but there 568 00:37:13,556 --> 00:37:19,516 Speaker 2: was an eldement that discounted it, that it wasn't credentialed. 569 00:37:21,436 --> 00:37:24,916 Speaker 2: I didn't bring a Harvard NBA to this. I wasn't 570 00:37:27,756 --> 00:37:33,516 Speaker 2: a lawyer at a major firm. And I look back now. 571 00:37:36,076 --> 00:37:42,156 Speaker 2: My instincts, intuition, judgment were everything in my work, and 572 00:37:42,276 --> 00:37:46,236 Speaker 2: it wasn't that what I had replaced the other people 573 00:37:46,236 --> 00:37:49,636 Speaker 2: in the room. What I say to people is, you 574 00:37:49,876 --> 00:37:51,396 Speaker 2: don't want a room full of people like me, but 575 00:37:51,476 --> 00:37:54,836 Speaker 2: you want somebody like me when you're going through this, 576 00:37:55,276 --> 00:38:01,636 Speaker 2: and it is this intuition and instinct and the sense 577 00:38:01,716 --> 00:38:05,916 Speaker 2: that you've described, and blank of processing and making a decision, 578 00:38:06,116 --> 00:38:08,716 Speaker 2: and there are thousands of things going on in your brain. 579 00:38:08,716 --> 00:38:12,596 Speaker 2: You don't even no as you're making that decision. And 580 00:38:12,716 --> 00:38:15,316 Speaker 2: I have lived my life but it and lived my 581 00:38:15,396 --> 00:38:20,036 Speaker 2: career butt and trust. So trust is all tied up 582 00:38:20,076 --> 00:38:23,356 Speaker 2: in that. It's a fascinating field. It is what I 583 00:38:23,396 --> 00:38:25,316 Speaker 2: did with clients because what they would say to me is, 584 00:38:25,476 --> 00:38:27,316 Speaker 2: how don't I get people to believe us again? How 585 00:38:27,316 --> 00:38:29,236 Speaker 2: do I get my customers back? How do I get 586 00:38:29,276 --> 00:38:31,196 Speaker 2: them to give me more time. How can I get 587 00:38:31,236 --> 00:38:33,716 Speaker 2: them to look at this in a different way? How 588 00:38:33,716 --> 00:38:35,476 Speaker 2: do I do that? What do I have to do 589 00:38:36,276 --> 00:38:39,396 Speaker 2: So it's all of that that plays into it. I 590 00:38:39,476 --> 00:38:42,556 Speaker 2: just never figured I would end up processing it for myself. 591 00:38:47,836 --> 00:38:50,956 Speaker 1: Provision Is History is produced by Nina Bird Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan, 592 00:38:51,236 --> 00:38:54,716 Speaker 1: and Ben atdaf Haffrey. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. 593 00:38:55,196 --> 00:38:58,556 Speaker 1: Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence, original music by Luis Gira, 594 00:38:58,956 --> 00:39:03,236 Speaker 1: Sound design and mastering by my Cello di'ela verra. Special 595 00:39:03,276 --> 00:39:08,636 Speaker 1: thanks to Cure Posey, Morgan Ratner, and Eric Sandler. I'm 596 00:39:08,636 --> 00:39:09,316 Speaker 1: Malcolm glar Ever.