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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to another new Monday episode of

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Speaker 1: You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat, and today

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Speaker 1: is a good day to be listening. Before we get

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Speaker 1: into anything, and before I introduce our guest for today,

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Speaker 1: just a quick reminder that this is not therapy. Even

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Speaker 1: though I am a license therapist, this podcast does not

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Speaker 1: serve as a replacement or substitute for that. However, it

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Speaker 1: could benefit you, and it could benefit your pursuit of

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Speaker 1: whatever mental health journey you are on, and I hope

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Speaker 1: it does. So. Today's guest is Aaron s Laine, and

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Speaker 1: she is a writer, a theologian, and someone other than

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Speaker 1: a mother, which is also the title of her new book,

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Speaker 1: which we talk about today. She holds a bachelor's degree

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Speaker 1: from Davidson College in a master's degree from Duke Divinity School,

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Speaker 1: both with a focus on gender studies, and she's freaking amazing.

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Speaker 1: This was one of the conversations where I like really

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Speaker 1: wanted time to slow down. I kept looking at my

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Speaker 1: clock and I was like, dang it, I'll I have

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Speaker 1: ten more minutes. What am I gonna ask? What am

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Speaker 1: I gonna say? I got to prioritize, and I just

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Speaker 1: wish I could have had such a longer conversation with her,

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Speaker 1: but you know, our attention spans are only so long,

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Speaker 1: and there's other things we have to do in the day,

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Speaker 1: so I couldn't spend four of those hours talking to her,

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Speaker 1: although I would have loved to. But I guess I

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Speaker 1: could do that if I sit down and finish her book,

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Speaker 1: which this is a different kind of interview because usually

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Speaker 1: if I'm interviewing somebody who has a book out, I

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Speaker 1: will read it before the interview. But this interview got

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Speaker 1: set up really quickly. I had been looking for someone

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Speaker 1: to come on the show and talk about living a

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Speaker 1: life without kids, whether it was by choice or not,

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Speaker 1: and she came into my inbox at just the right time.

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Speaker 1: So I actually got this email and it was introduced

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Speaker 1: to her on a Monday, and then we recorded that Friday.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't have enough time to read her book

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Speaker 1: in those four days, but I did do enough research

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Speaker 1: where I was like, oh my gosh, this is going

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Speaker 1: to be such a good conversation, So now I get

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Speaker 1: to continue that conversation and finish your book anyway, just

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Speaker 1: like I had talked about in the recent singles podcast,

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Speaker 1: the one that was titled single people are not second

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Speaker 1: class citizens. I wanted this to be a space in

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Speaker 1: this conversation, to be a space to offer more information

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Speaker 1: around the possibility that there is more than one way

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Speaker 1: to live a desirable and a good life. Something that

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Speaker 1: I'm taken away from this conversation that I hope you

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Speaker 1: will as well is the continued necessity to find a

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Speaker 1: space to ask questions and wonder and get curious rather

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Speaker 1: than to just accept everything at face value. I really

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Speaker 1: hope you love Aaron as much as I did, and

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Speaker 1: I am pretty sure you will. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't. And you can get her new book anywhere,

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Speaker 1: but she did suggest if you have a local bookstore

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Speaker 1: to go there and get it there, and if they

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Speaker 1: don't carry it, request that they do again. That book

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Speaker 1: is called Someone Other Than a Mother. You can follow

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Speaker 1: her on Instagram. She has a newsletter you can sign

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Speaker 1: up for. I will post all the links to that

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Speaker 1: in the show notes. She's taking a break from Instagram

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Speaker 1: right now, but you can still follow her regardless if

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Speaker 1: you want more of her. So I want to just

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Speaker 1: get to it, and here is my conversation with Aaron. Aaron,

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Speaker 1: welcome to you. Need therapy. I'm so excited to talk

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Speaker 1: to you. And this is different than most podcast interviews

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Speaker 1: I do because I think I read the email about

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Speaker 1: you on Monday and then schedule this Friday. Cool. Cool, Cool.

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Speaker 1: So I am excited because usually I like read people's

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Speaker 1: books if they have a book that they're promoting before

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Speaker 1: I talk to them. But I just know about your book,

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Speaker 1: So I'm excited to get to talk to you and

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Speaker 1: then read it. But I want to start. If you

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Speaker 1: don't mind, I'm going to give you a chance to

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Speaker 1: introduce yourself, but I really want to start with what

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Speaker 1: I read where I was like, oh, I want to

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Speaker 1: talk to her immediately and then go from there. Is

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Speaker 1: that okay, Yeah, let's do it. What dreat you in? Okay?

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Speaker 1: So this is what I read and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this sounds like somebody that I need to have a

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Speaker 1: conversation with. And uh, it was just part of the

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Speaker 1: email that I got. For anybody who's listening, it just

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Speaker 1: was describing her and about the work she does. And

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Speaker 1: this is the part that really stuck out, and it

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Speaker 1: says theologian Aaron s. Layne flips tired sayings about motherhood

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Speaker 1: that claim women don't know love until they have children

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Speaker 1: someone other than a mother. Overturns common social scripts about

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Speaker 1: motherhood and inspires women to write their own stories. Lane

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Speaker 1: grew up being told there was no love as strong

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Speaker 1: as a mother's love. As a young Catholic girl growing

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Speaker 1: up in the Midwest, she was given two options for

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Speaker 1: a life well lived, mother or mother superior. She could

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Speaker 1: marry a man and then mother her own children, or

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Speaker 1: she could marry God so to speak, and mother the

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Speaker 1: world's children. Both were good outcomes for someone else's life,

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Speaker 1: neither would fit the shape of hers. So as soon

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Speaker 1: as I read that, I was like, there is so

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Speaker 1: much inside of everything in that, Like those are like

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Speaker 1: five sentences or something, but there's so much in that.

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Speaker 1: And I want you to talk about what kind of

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Speaker 1: like sprung you into writing this book. But my first

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Speaker 1: question that I want to start with because as a

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Speaker 1: therapist and somebody that doesn't I'm in my thirties and

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Speaker 1: I don't have kids. I sit with so many people

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Speaker 1: of all different walks of life, and so many of

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Speaker 1: my clients which I don't know if this would surprise

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Speaker 1: people or not choose not to have kids like intentionally,

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Speaker 1: And there's often this like battle of having to like

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Speaker 1: defend themselves or constantly question did I make the right choice?

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Speaker 1: Because there's not any content in the world that is

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Speaker 1: saying what you're saying, I think, and so it's really

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Speaker 1: hard to continue to like almost validate yourself that you're

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Speaker 1: making the right decision. So I want to start with this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to start with this because I think this

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Speaker 1: is important. When and how, especially in the in the

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Speaker 1: way you were brought up, did you recognize maybe I

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Speaker 1: don't want to have my own kids or even think that, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: maybe I don't have to do this. Oh, there's so

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Speaker 1: much in that question itself. For me. I think how

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Speaker 1: I began to know is because the way I noticed

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Speaker 1: I showed up in the world didn't seem compatible with

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Speaker 1: the way my own mother showed up in the world.

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Speaker 1: My own mother was a single mom for most of

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Speaker 1: my childhood and freaking loved parenting. Um. She loved us,

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Speaker 1: we were her world. She was amazing. She was like

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Speaker 1: always making up songs, always telling us about how to

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Speaker 1: talk to the Holy Spirit. She was also a nurse practitioner,

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Speaker 1: so I got a very keen sex education growing up.

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Speaker 1: Alongside the messages I was getting from the Catholic Church

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Speaker 1: that my only options were mother or mother superior. So

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Speaker 1: this is the world that I'm swimming in where my

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Speaker 1: own mother loves mothering, but she's also telling me about

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Speaker 1: all of the biological things that make sex pleasurable, not

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Speaker 1: just procreative, make my body not just gift but choice,

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Speaker 1: and make motherhood out to be a really beautiful thing

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Speaker 1: if you really love it. And I just realized very

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Speaker 1: early on the way I was wired for long bouts

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Speaker 1: of alone time, I very much felt overwhelmed by my

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Speaker 1: inner world, so much so that I felt like I

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Speaker 1: discerned from an early age that I would have to

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Speaker 1: really limit how much I took on in my outer

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Speaker 1: world to make sense of all that noise. And again,

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Speaker 1: just a really early memory of playing with dolls and realizing,

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Speaker 1: I don't think I want to mother these dolls. I

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Speaker 1: want to organize them, like their ideas. I want to

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Speaker 1: name them, like their titles to a book only I

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Speaker 1: could write. And so often we look at girls in

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Speaker 1: particular and we're like, does she play with dolls? Does

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Speaker 1: she seem maternal? And we use this as code for

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Speaker 1: whether or not she's going to be a good mother

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Speaker 1: or enjoy mothering. And for me, it was like no,

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Speaker 1: I had to get curious about the thing behind the thing,

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Speaker 1: what's driving my behavior, and most of it was this

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Speaker 1: real desire to quiet the world so I could be

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Speaker 1: faithful to the world inside of me. Okay, as you

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Speaker 1: are speaking. So I had yesterday a two hour of

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Speaker 1: my own thing. I went to my own therapist therapy session,

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Speaker 1: and I went in there like guns blazing because I

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Speaker 1: saw something on the internet and I am trying to

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Speaker 1: learn how to like not always get so worked up

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Speaker 1: about things around this nature. But I went in there

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Speaker 1: with this thing that I've seen about a therapist basically

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Speaker 1: putting this like very black and white, which happens all

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Speaker 1: the time, put it a very black and white piece

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Speaker 1: of information to the masses, and basically telling the masses

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Speaker 1: this is what you should do, and if this is

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Speaker 1: what you get, this is what you should do. It

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Speaker 1: was just telling somebody exactly what to do. So I'm thinking,

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Speaker 1: as you said, like you had them, you grew up

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Speaker 1: in this Catholic church, but you also had this mother

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Speaker 1: that what stuck out to me is talk to me

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Speaker 1: about sex and that it can be something other than procreation.

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Speaker 1: And that I have choice. And first of all, that

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Speaker 1: is props to your mother. I feel like that's not

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Speaker 1: as common as I wish it was. But I want

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Speaker 1: to read something because in that conversation with my therapist,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I don't understand how, and I was

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Speaker 1: going through this whole like do I delete my Instagram?

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Speaker 1: Do I stop having a podcast? Like how I don't

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Speaker 1: think therapist should be public figures and like or should

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Speaker 1: they like but we're supposed to help. I went through

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Speaker 1: this whole thing two hours, so at the end of it,

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Speaker 1: it's summed that we summed it up. And this is

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Speaker 1: what I ended up. I had written this like long, angry,

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Speaker 1: rageful post. I'm never going to post it. It was

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Speaker 1: just like getting my feelings out. And then this is

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Speaker 1: what I actually put out there. And I'm reading this

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Speaker 1: because I think a lot of times, not just therapists,

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Speaker 1: but the world is very quick, and not just when

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Speaker 1: it comes to kids, very quick to tell us this

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Speaker 1: is how you live a good life, this is how

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Speaker 1: you live a right life, this is how you and

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Speaker 1: underneath a lot of the stuff that I have people

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Speaker 1: come in for That's one of the biggest issues is

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Speaker 1: people don't realize that they actually have choice in their life,

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Speaker 1: and so they're grappling with like, I don't know. The

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Speaker 1: depression and the anxiety comes from like living in lives

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Speaker 1: that don't actually fit, and then how do I actually

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Speaker 1: know what does fit? And so I just want to

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Speaker 1: read this because this isn't my words, this is my

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Speaker 1: therapist said this, and I wrote it down and stole it.

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Speaker 1: But she said the best way for a therapist to

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Speaker 1: have a public platform is by creating a space for

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Speaker 1: curiosity and conversation. If you're not, you're doing whatever everyone

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Speaker 1: else is doing to them, telling them what to believe,

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Speaker 1: rather than teaching them that they have a choice, which

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Speaker 1: is to me what I just heard, like your mom

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Speaker 1: was doing right, does that make yeah? Yeah, absolutely? I

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Speaker 1: think for me, there are so so many messages that

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Speaker 1: I've received over the years that we're not the messages

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Speaker 1: my mom was telling me that assumed motherhood was inevitable,

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Speaker 1: that I would inevitably become a mother, and that I

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Speaker 1: would inevitably love becoming a mother, and that it would

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Speaker 1: inevitably be the most important thing I did in my life.

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Speaker 1: The thing on my deathbed that like forget paid work,

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Speaker 1: like forget my dog. Um, like forget sitting against the trees.

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Speaker 1: This would be the exceptional love of my life. And

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Speaker 1: it was almost like there was nothing I could do

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Speaker 1: about it. It didn't matter if I wanted to be

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Speaker 1: this person or not. It didn't matter if I felt

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Speaker 1: suited to it or not. It didn't matter that I

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Speaker 1: was like doing a scan of the world and finding

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Speaker 1: it quite overwhelming and not knowing how I would be

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Speaker 1: faithful to myself if I also, we're going to be

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Speaker 1: faithful to buy all trical children. And I think that

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Speaker 1: that's the danger as anytime motherhood or anything becomes an inevitability,

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Speaker 1: what we do is we are sacrificing the inner inventory

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Speaker 1: that I think is what being human is all about.

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Speaker 1: For these scripts. Um, whether it's your biological clock is

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Speaker 1: ticking and we're like, oh, does does that mean there's

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Speaker 1: something in me that wants children even if I don't

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Speaker 1: know it. That creates a lot of weird anxiety. I've

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Speaker 1: never thought about it that way, that that like, I've

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Speaker 1: never thought of the script of your biological clock is ticking.

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Speaker 1: I actually love that you said that, because yeah, it

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Speaker 1: is sending the message that it's ticking. So I hear like,

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Speaker 1: if you want this, you better hurry up. But in

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Speaker 1: that as well is well, you do want this? Yes, right,

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Speaker 1: there's there's an alarm that's going to go offen you

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Speaker 1: at some point without your consent, and it is going

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Speaker 1: to tell you, Um, it is going to create a

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Speaker 1: fear in you. It is going to create a longing

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Speaker 1: in you for something that, like your consciousousness is, I

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Speaker 1: don't know that I want children. I don't know that

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Speaker 1: I'm worried about being thirty eight and not having biological children.

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Speaker 1: But you hear that message. Your biological clock is ticking,

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Speaker 1: and it's hard to not extrapolate from that. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: have a reproductive window where I need to, you know,

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Speaker 1: decide if this is what I want to do in

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Speaker 1: this particular way. It's hard not to extrapolate from that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's something innate in me that should desire children by

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Speaker 1: this point in my life. And I've talked to friends,

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Speaker 1: my friend Janelle being one of them who I interview

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Speaker 1: in the book, who is like, I don't want children.

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Speaker 1: But hearing that makes me think something is broken. If

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Speaker 1: I don't hear the alarm, Am I broken? What is

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Speaker 1: wrong with me that I'm not panicked at thirty eight

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Speaker 1: about my desire for children or my lack of desire

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Speaker 1: for children. And so that's an example of like the

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Speaker 1: medical model being used to to shame women who don't

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Speaker 1: have or want children. But they're also right religious and

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Speaker 1: cultural scripts that do the same. So in my tradition,

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Speaker 1: be fruitful and multiply is often used as the prescriptive purpose.

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Speaker 1: And when we read that literally again, what we're doing

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Speaker 1: is sacrificing our inner inventory for this external authority rather

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Speaker 1: than again letting the to dance. We need inner and

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Speaker 1: external authorities, but we also need to let the two

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Speaker 1: dance together and test those truths out in community but

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Speaker 1: also in our own bodies. And the one that sticks

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Speaker 1: out to me that i've i've seen is the script

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Speaker 1: of like you'll never know a love like a mother's love,

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Speaker 1: and it's like the greatest love. And I say this

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Speaker 1: all the time again, I I don't have kids. Who

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Speaker 1: knows if I even can have kids? I there's so

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Speaker 1: that's a whole thing. But I will joke about like

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I could ever love my kids

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Speaker 1: as much as I love my my nieces. Like that

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Speaker 1: feels true to me, and there's like this fear of like,

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Speaker 1: I'm supposed to love my kids because there you'll never

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Speaker 1: know a love like a mother's love. And there's there's

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Speaker 1: fear like well what if I what if I don't

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Speaker 1: and if if I'm not having kids at all? Too,

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Speaker 1: what am I missing out on? Like I'm going to

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Speaker 1: like die and miss out on the most amazing thing

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Speaker 1: that is created. And so that fear might push me

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Speaker 1: to have a kid and then be like, well, this

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Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean so I

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Speaker 1: call that script you don't know love until you become

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Speaker 1: a mother, the mother of all mother's scripts, because I

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Speaker 1: think what all of these mother's scripts are doing, and

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Speaker 1: I write about the nine that we're most alive in

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Speaker 1: my own particular life and cultural location. But um, I

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Speaker 1: think there are different variations depending on what kind of

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Speaker 1: waters you swam in growing up. But that script, in particular,

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Speaker 1: I think is such a great object lesson in the

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Speaker 1: danger of maternal exceptionalism or this idea that there is

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Speaker 1: something exceptional about a mother's love because one to your point,

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Speaker 1: you can't refute it, Like if someone tells you that

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Speaker 1: and you haven't experienced motherhood yet, you can say, well,

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Speaker 1: I kind of think that's b s. But like again,

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Speaker 1: they're telling you you can't know until you experience this thing.

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Speaker 1: What I find really troubling is this isn't a thing

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Speaker 1: that everyone can experience. So I hate that there's this

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Speaker 1: idea that UM tell me, friend, love is the greatest

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Speaker 1: love of all and I'll be like, yeah, thumbs up,

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Speaker 1: I agree, because everyone can enter into that in their

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Speaker 1: own particular way. But when we say motherhood, and particularly

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Speaker 1: biological motherhood does something to a woman that is so

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Speaker 1: much exceptionally better than anything else in a woman's life

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Speaker 1: and anything else that a non mother might experience over

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Speaker 1: the course of her life, it's really damaging. And I

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Speaker 1: do think it pressures people into trying motherhood, which is

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Speaker 1: a really hard thing to try. And it pressures mother's

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Speaker 1: on the other side of the experience who have heard

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Speaker 1: the script, who come mothers hoping it is curious if

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Speaker 1: it is the exceptional, big, great purpose they've been waiting for.

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Speaker 1: And then you meet your children and sometimes you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're a hard fit. There's something about us that's a

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Speaker 1: hard fit, and this is going to be a hard love.

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Speaker 1: This is going to be a work love or I

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Speaker 1: love my children, but I also love my work, and

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Speaker 1: I love the quiet, and I don't love giggles at

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Speaker 1: four pm in the afternoon. Like I think it's shames

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Speaker 1: women on both sides, before becoming a mother and after

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Speaker 1: becoming a mother, that there is something you are supposed

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Speaker 1: to be feeling and if you don't feel it, you're

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Speaker 1: missing out or you're doing something wrong. I'm curious if

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Speaker 1: you write about this in the book, what about the

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Speaker 1: scripts for men? Because as you said that, when you

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Speaker 1: said work, I wrote down the word work, so I

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Speaker 1: was like, I want to come back to this. But

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Speaker 1: more well, there's a lot of things happening in a

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Speaker 1: social climate right now which we might get to, but

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Speaker 1: more and more now you'll see women having these careers

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Speaker 1: and going after things that they've never been able to

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Speaker 1: go after and all that, and there's also this fight

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Speaker 1: of like do I have to choose one? But I

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Speaker 1: don't see that and I don't study this, but I

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Speaker 1: don't see that with men as much. It's like they

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Speaker 1: can have that career and then they can also have

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Speaker 1: kids if they want. But I wonder from your perspective,

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Speaker 1: why there's such a like you'll never know a love

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Speaker 1: like a mother's love, but it doesn't feel as strong

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Speaker 1: that like you'll never know a love like a father's love.

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's because I'm not on that side of

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Speaker 1: the spectrum, but that seems uneven to me. Well to

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Speaker 1: two things that I notice in regards to the conversation

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Speaker 1: about mother and father love. One, I do write a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how both mothers and fathers are putting

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Speaker 1: in more hours working. Mothers and fathers are putting in

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Speaker 1: more hours at home and at work than ever before.

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Speaker 1: And so you are seeing a rise in fathers saying

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Speaker 1: that parenting is very important to their identity. It's like

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Speaker 1: one percentage point different than mothers in one of the

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Speaker 1: polls I looked at. And so you're seeing as women

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Speaker 1: more and more find their identity and their work, you

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Speaker 1: are seeing men kind of have a related intensification of

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Speaker 1: their identity in the home. What's completely overwhelming about that

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Speaker 1: is no one is decreasing their hours anywhere. So there's

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Speaker 1: just this idea more and more, this good capitalist idea

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Speaker 1: that more is better, that you can have it all,

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Speaker 1: and that limits are limiting and you shouldn't limit your

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Speaker 1: commitment to work or home based on your own energetic capacities,

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Speaker 1: based on what kind of money you need to um

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Speaker 1: live well and live healthily. There's just um In some ways,

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Speaker 1: the breakthrough we've seen in a wider gender normative expression

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Speaker 1: in parenting hasn't been met with a narrowing of Okay,

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Speaker 1: if I do want to be more involved at home

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Speaker 1: or I do want to be more involved in work,

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Speaker 1: what am I going to say no to to say

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Speaker 1: yes that we still are very phobic to do it. Apparently, Well,

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Speaker 1: I see this in a couple. I have a couple

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Speaker 1: of people in my life who are are men who

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Speaker 1: actually take on the more traditional stay at home with

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Speaker 1: the kid's role, and there's a lot of shame in

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Speaker 1: that that has to be worked through. And that's like

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Speaker 1: for me, I wish it wasn't that way, But hopefully

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Speaker 1: we'll shift that as the conversations like this might happen.

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Speaker 1: But I think from I can speak because I am

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Speaker 1: on the side of things, it does feel like, well,

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Speaker 1: what am I going to have to sacrifice to have kids?

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Speaker 1: Which in my head I just almost said, which is

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Speaker 1: another question. I almost just said, what am I going

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Speaker 1: to sacrifice to have a family? Which we'll get to

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Speaker 1: because in my head a family would be children, right,

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Speaker 1: So I going to sacrifice I don't know that I

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Speaker 1: want to sacrifice anything at least right now. And so

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Speaker 1: does that make me selfish? And is that bad? Does

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Speaker 1: that make me a bad Christian? Am I hurting society?

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Speaker 1: Or am I helping society? I mean, there's so much,

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Speaker 1: there's so many questions in that when like, why can't

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Speaker 1: it just be like what feels true to you? And

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Speaker 1: I think maybe it's like, well, people don't know what

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Speaker 1: feels true to them because they've been told certain things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they've also been told that that parenting is something

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Speaker 1: that's going to happen in addition to whatever else you do.

396
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Speaker 1: So they don't end up sitting down right to discern

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Speaker 1: parenting because they just think, I'm gonna do X, Y

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Speaker 1: and Z and I will also parent alongside it. And

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Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's what I see happening with a

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Speaker 1: lot of folks, is that like, parenting is like this

401
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 1: inevitable additive to your life, but it's a gigantic additive

402
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Speaker 1: that actually, to your point, yeah, changes your commitments to

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Speaker 1: other things in your life and makes those commitments hard

404
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Speaker 1: to singularly focus on and and I talk about this

405
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Speaker 1: in the chapter on motherhood is the toughest job in

406
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Speaker 1: the world. How there are a lot of women and

407
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Speaker 1: this is an interesting statistic who believe that they're calling

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Speaker 1: is to serve the world, and that they actually can't

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Speaker 1: serve the world if they are also serving children under

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Speaker 1: their own roof. And so actually, the more likely a

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Speaker 1: woman is to want to provide social value in her work,

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Speaker 1: the less likely as she is to become a mother.

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Speaker 1: So the more you kind of see your calling as

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Speaker 1: loving the world, the less likely you are to become

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Speaker 1: a biological mother. And there are researchers who are like, well,

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Speaker 1: that that shouldn't have to be the case, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I agree, it doesn't have to be the case. And

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Speaker 1: we also again should be very clear about the trade

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00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: offs of a multi hyfinite life, and they are many.

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Speaker 1: And again going back to this idea of Americans in

421
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,239
Speaker 1: particular think limits are limiting. I think limits are how

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Speaker 1: love multiplies. And so I think when we are limited,

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Speaker 1: that's when the good stuff comes. When we're limited, like,

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Speaker 1: that's when we're able to see like the weird wonky

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Speaker 1: group project of life. Yeah, when I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: do it all. That goes back to like simple things

427
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Speaker 1: that maybe we don't apply to our lives as much

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Speaker 1: as we should, as like, if you're trying to do everything,

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Speaker 1: you're going to be giving to all those things. And

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Speaker 1: if you want to give like a like a more

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Speaker 1: of your energy to one thing and do it really well,

432
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 1: you can't do it all. But it's it's confusing because

433
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: I don't know that this is so much a mother script,

434
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 1: but I grew up with these two conflicting ideas of

435
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: you can be whatever you want to be, which I

436
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: don't think it's true. Um, you can be whatever, you

437
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 1: can be whatever you want to be, and you can

438
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: have whatever, like go have it all, like if you

439
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: want to all, go have it all, kind of like

440
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 1: American dream kind of stuff. And then also that idea

441
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 1: of you can't do it all, and if you want

442
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 1: to do something well, you have to choose and focus

443
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 1: on that. Like I think I got those two things constantly.

444
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 1: I think I else see those two things constantly, and

445
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: that is so confusing because it's like wait a second,

446
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: which one do I choose? Or am I supposed to

447
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,479
Speaker 1: choose both? And then going back to you saying like

448
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: limits are actually really helpful, Like when you feel like

449
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: you are limited in the things that you can do,

450
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: that is what kind of grounds you and creates boundaries,

451
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: so those things are done well and you can enjoy them. Yes,

452
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's just because I'm a

453
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: low capacity woman, but like I'm always thinking about, Okay,

454
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: I've got two good hours and every day, Yeah, what

455
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: do I know that I want to put them towards today?

456
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 1: And it changes and what do I know, We'll just

457
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: have to get We'll have to get some like phoned

458
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: in presence from me because I don't have limitless capacity.

459
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the reasons I knew

460
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 1: that biological parenting wasn't for me for many reasons, but

461
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: one of them being I really love my bodily autonomy

462
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: and really love and desire like to steward my energy well.

463
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,239
Speaker 1: And it is hard enough for me to do that

464
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: when I'm just taking care of meat and this body.

465
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: And I don't you know, I don't experience shame over that.

466
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 1: That feels like saying I have blonde hair, Like I

467
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: just know this about myself. Um, and so I'm going

468
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: to move in the world with this knowledge that I

469
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: love my bodily autonomy and I love myself enough to

470
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: be faithful to the energetic limits I have, which are

471
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: many and plentiful. Can you speak to either your experience

472
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: or experiences that you've heard through people that you've talked

473
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: to about this idea, because as you were saying that,

474
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this idea, where going back to

475
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: that piece of if you choose not to have biological children,

476
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: then you are selfish. So a lot of times that's

477
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: what I hear, like, I am choosing to be selfish

478
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: by which again selfishness doesn't have to be a bad thing,

479
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 1: but I'm choosing to be selfish by honoring this part

480
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: of me that says I don't want to have kids

481
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,239
Speaker 1: and I know that I am limited, and these are

482
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: the things I want to focus on. What is the

483
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 1: did you there was there any internal battle in you?

484
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: Or have you heard through the people that you've talked

485
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: to about the internal battle of I have to now

486
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: feel like I do these great big things because I'm

487
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: choosing to be selfish and not have kids, so I

488
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: have to do some great big social work and all

489
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: of that, because if I don't, then I'm just a

490
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: selfish person that just wants to have fun and care

491
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: about myself all the time. That makes sense, Yes, oh yeah,

492
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: that makes sense. There are so many directions for my

493
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 1: brain wants to go, so for me, this is not

494
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 1: an equivalency. But I was thinking about this as I

495
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 1: was writing the book that like, no one tells me

496
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: I'm selfish for like not also taking up marathon running,

497
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 1: you know, like no one tells me I am selfish

498
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: for not like reading my way through all the great literature.

499
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: And it got me thinking, what is it about this

500
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: really big thing that if I took on I would

501
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: take up a huge portion of my time in life

502
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: that for some reason, again, it's selfish not to add

503
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: it to just add it to what I'm already doing.

504
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: And so I started to get curious about like the

505
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: strategy behind calling women who opt out of children selfish,

506
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: and and learned this whole history about America in particular,

507
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: when this language first took root. It was like early

508
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: twentieth century Teddy Roosevelt gives this like infamous speech um

509
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: where he says, you know, if you don't have children,

510
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: you are selfish. You are not doing your God given

511
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 1: duty and you are not doing your duty to this country.

512
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, oh, so selfish is a strategy

513
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: of capitalism because in order for men who at that

514
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: time were expanding from working on the family farm working

515
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: on the family home. This is when you start to

516
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: see those like Victorian division of labor, Like men were

517
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: going out of the house in the day to work

518
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 1: in the factory or field. Women now needed to be

519
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: motivated to stay home and make their home into a

520
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 1: haven so that when those men came home they could

521
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: sort of comfort themselves that all of those like dirty,

522
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: nasty things and competitive aggressive things we did at work

523
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: are now soothed by this feminine presence in the house.

524
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: So this is all to say that in America we

525
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: told women we needed their unpaid, selfless labor in order

526
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 1: for men to go to work and be unfeeling, women

527
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: had to feel for their own home. And so like,

528
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: knowing that long history helps me to de personalize now

529
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: the selfish claims, I'm like, no, that's just a strategy.

530
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: That's just a strategy of American exceptionalism because you want

531
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: more taxpayers, or you want to compel my my labors.

532
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: That America is like the greatest and biggest and most

533
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: competitive country. You also don't know what to do with

534
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: me if you can't motivate me in this particular way.

535
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: So there's something very dangerous, I think, to America and

536
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: to capitalism for women that are not motivated by family

537
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: and men who are not motivated by the work. So

538
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: one of the most interesting things I found uh in

539
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: my research was that the most derided groups historically in

540
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: the last hundred years have been child free women and

541
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: homeless men. And it's because both fail to provide what

542
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: this country thinks it needs to survive, which is independent

543
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: men and dependent women. Oh that's my little soapbox. God,

544
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: this isn't about me when someone says this, this isn't

545
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: about me. And of course the Christian component, the religious

546
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: component is yeah, this idea that the more the more

547
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,719
Speaker 1: babies you make, the more disciples you make. And so

548
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: there's this idea that if you're not making disciples through

549
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: your womb, then there some sort of selfishness. But it's

550
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: sort of the same kind of thinking that um, the

551
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: latest and greatest happens through numbers and economic power and

552
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: influence rather than these like quieter ways that we make

553
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: meaning and love ourselves and love our neighbor as well. Okay,

554
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: so first of all, that was beautifully said, we really said.

555
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, sure, I want to see that speech. I

556
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: want to either read that that is wild. It's a

557
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: gem that is freaking wild. And I guess that like

558
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: there's this part of me and this even goes back

559
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: to like me getting heated when I see certain things

560
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: on that that that I'm just like, these are so harmful,

561
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: and like I think most people in the world, like

562
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: we're all out here trying to like live the best

563
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: life we can live, and like a lot of people

564
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: who are following certain accounts that act cause harm or

565
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: just like looking for help. And I did this whole

566
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: like deep dive into colts and and learning about how

567
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: like most of the time people join a cult because

568
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: they're trying to find a better life, or they're trying

569
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: to find a better whether community, or they're trying to

570
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: better themselves in some way, and they're just like kind

571
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: of then they can turn into these evil things unassumingly.

572
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: But that all boys down to this part that's like

573
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: feel so sad because I don't know what I would

574
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: have thought if I heard that speech back then because

575
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: I could have been like, yes, that is my duty,

576
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: like I will I will do that, and I will

577
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: be this, and like even in my history as growing

578
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: up in the church, it's like, yes, I will do

579
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: these things, like this is what I and we don't question.

580
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: We just don't question enough. And as I've gotten older,

581
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: and one of my favorite parts of being a therapist

582
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: is like sitting with people and just being like, well,

583
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: let's talk about it, Like let's talk about both sides,

584
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: Like let's just ask a bunch of questions and see

585
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: if we have any answers, rather than just being like

586
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: this don't really make sense, but I'm gonna do it.

587
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: Or this person said it and they're really smart and

588
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: they have power, so they must be right. And I

589
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: think what you're saying and what you just said is

590
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: like there are so many parts of our lives we

591
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: have got to question because we don't know what we're

592
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: being manipulated by, we don't know what we're missing out on,

593
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: we don't know what actually isn't the best for us,

594
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: Like going back to like taking that choice away, like

595
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: I get to choose, and like I am the only

596
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: one me who is going to actually know what I need.

597
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: Everybody else might have an opinion, but I'm the only

598
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: one that's going to really actually know that like each

599
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: individual person. This feels like a soapbox that I can't

600
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: stop getting back on. Is anytime somebody else in the

601
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: world is telling you that they know you better than you,

602
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: they know what you need better than you, they know

603
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: what you should do better than you, You've got to

604
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: run away from that person because that's not true. There's

605
00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: no way for anybody to be inside your head. My

606
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: therapist said this to me. Think about all the thoughts

607
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: you have all day that you don't say, all the

608
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: things that come through your brain. Who else sees those,

609
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: who else hears those? So how in the world could

610
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: anybody else know you better than you do because they

611
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: don't get any of that information. And a lot of

612
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,479
Speaker 1: what you're saying about kids and being a mother and

613
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: all that it comes from a place of people saying

614
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: this is what you should do, this is for you,

615
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: this is and then we don't question it. So there's

616
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: no question in that. I just think it's like valuable

617
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: information and a valuable thing to hear of. You're allowed

618
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: to question things even if they seem and feel right.

619
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: At first, Yes, I think this is the best part

620
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: about being a grown up UM is to know the

621
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: joy and limits of writing your own story within some

622
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: bigger stories. And I always say that second part within

623
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: some bigger stories because I also don't want to like

624
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: fall on the side that you spoke of earlier, of

625
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: like the American dream, where like you can write your

626
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: own story and it doesn't matter who you are and

627
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: where you're from. You could be an NBA basketball star, right, Like,

628
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: We're always writing our own stories within bigger stories. And

629
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: so I think I'm just so fascinated with Okay, if

630
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 1: I don't get to write whatever story I want, like

631
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: I'm always kind of like limited by these bigger stories

632
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: I find myself in, then I better choose really big,

633
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: beautiful stories to find myself in, right, And so like,

634
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: I want the cosmic stories that I put my faith

635
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: in to be stories that I want to write my

636
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: little story within that feel like they're big enough and

637
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 1: wide enough and compy enough and squishy enough to move

638
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: with me as I grow and for me. The idea

639
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: that Christianity is pro natalist or really compelling pro creation,

640
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: whether for evangelical purposes or for vocational purposes is not

641
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: life giving. Um, it's not life giving for me to

642
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: believe that, and it's not life giving for so many

643
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: others to believe that that is the best, for so

644
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: many other as I've spoken with, to believe that that

645
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: is the best and only way to live a life

646
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: well lived. And so I have not like thrown out

647
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 1: all of the cosmic stories. And there's still much about

648
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: like Catholicism in particular, that I found really lovely and

649
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: beautiful and continue to like compost it within me. But

650
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: I have chosen again to live my life under the

651
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 1: umbrella that other love, not mother love, is the highest

652
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: form of love and Christianity, and so mother love can

653
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: certainly be one kind of way that you live that

654
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: out in the world. But I see, like no and

655
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: this is the nerd in me, like no textual evidence, um,

656
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: like no good sound theological orthodoxy even I mean a

657
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: lot of these ideas that like that your family comes

658
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: first and your family is your greatest legacy. And again,

659
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: by what we mean about that is like your biological children,

660
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: the people living under your own roof is really new.

661
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: It's like it's and when I say new, I mean

662
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: like five years old and but for that right, it

663
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 1: was considered like second best to get married and have children,

664
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: right that like really celibacy was the way to go.

665
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: And there were people excommunicated for arguing that marriage and

666
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: children was like equally good as celibacy. They're like, no, no no, no,

667
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 1: it's not even equally as good. It is worse than right.

668
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: And so again I find history so comforting, um to

669
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,720
Speaker 1: know that like a lot of these these things we believe,

670
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: but particularly the idea that like mother love is the

671
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: most exceptional and spiritual and holy and sacred love. Again,

672
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: just are are very contextual ideas and really, in my opinion,

673
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: not supported, not supported by a faithful reading of the text.

674
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: So whenever I tell people the good and glorious thing,

675
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 1: you are telling people that when it comes to matters

676
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: of the soul, like you are the expert, you are

677
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: the expert on you. Again, it doesn't mean not finding

678
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: yourself in those bigger cosmic stories. It just means choosing

679
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: which ones give you life and allow you to flourish.

680
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: I want to make sure we before we run, have

681
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: time talk about this because one thing I want to

682
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: tell you that I've noticed in everything you've said, because

683
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 1: I see the opposite of this sometimes in these conversations,

684
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: and not that it's bad, but you're not defensive at all,

685
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: Like there's no defensiveness around, like I have to like

686
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: prove that this is the right thing and this is

687
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: the wrong thing. Like everything you're saying one is in kindness.

688
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: It's you're giving like research and explanation to things. But

689
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: it's not in this like defensive like almost like it's

690
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: a fight or a debate. You're just offering information and

691
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: another way to think about things. And that is I

692
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 1: think so needed because I think a lot of times

693
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: when somebody who is maybe wanting to be on this

694
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: other realm of it, I don't know if I want kids,

695
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want my own kids or

696
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: any of that, it does turn into the like I

697
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: have to defend myself because you're coming at me and

698
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: you're just like, oh no, Like this is just another

699
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: way of thinking. And that makes it really easy to digest.

700
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 1: I think for the people that have never even been

701
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: given given that option to think that way, and for

702
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: the people that might not understand it, and all of that.

703
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: So I want to say thank you for that, and

704
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: then I want to make sure that I get to

705
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: hear a little bit about your little journey around choosing

706
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 1: not to have kids and now you have kids. Yeah,

707
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: so can you just like, I don't know what the

708
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 1: question is, but I just want to hear because that's

709
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: such an interesting experience, especially because you're still writing this

710
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: book and offering this information. It's still important to you

711
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: even though you have children. So can you talk a

712
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: little bit about that and how that shifted. Yeah. I

713
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: think this goes back to your selfish question because I

714
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: think I'm pretty resolute pretty early on that I didn't

715
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 1: want children, and any time I doubted that, it was

716
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: because someone else or something else made me doubt. That

717
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: made me feel like I would change my mind, made

718
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: me feel like my biological clock would kick in, made

719
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: me feel like I'd be really good at it, and

720
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: if you're good at something, you should do it. All

721
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: of these messages made me think, I don't think I

722
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: want this, but maybe, like there's five percent of me

723
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't know what I want. I could change and

724
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 1: sure like I always hold out hope and possibility that

725
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: I will change my mind on things, but I think

726
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: there was some pressure to feel like if I'm not

727
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 1: going to have children. I'm not gonna have biological children,

728
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: but I'm also reading my tradition scripture and it says

729
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: kind of the greatest love of all is other love,

730
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: to love yourself, to love God, and to love your neighbor.

731
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: Then like, am I Am I really living into that

732
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: vocation because I don't want anyone to be able to

733
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: look at my life and say that I'm not um

734
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to be that child free stereotype who's

735
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: just like drinking my ties on the beach, which again

736
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with drinking my ties on the beach,

737
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: But I've got like this little bit of a contrarian

738
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: spirit and meme, and so I was like, I'm going

739
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,439
Speaker 1: to prove these people. I'm going to prove these people

740
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: that just because I'm not having biological children doesn't mean

741
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: my life's not worth something. And I think part of

742
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: that was really beautiful and part of that was really dysfunctional,

743
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: but it led my husband and I to try a

744
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: number of ways to be available to our community, to say,

745
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: look like, we're not just going to serve ourselves, we

746
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: really do want to like be in our community, and

747
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: this is actually the way that we can um by

748
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: showing up for our friends that are having kids by

749
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: sleeping on the floor of the homeless ministry at our

750
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: church because we don't have to arrange childcare to do it.

751
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: And we tried out a number of things that all

752
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: just felt really thin and flat and like we weren't

753
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: being changed by it. The people we thought we were

754
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: helping weren't being changed by it. It just like there's

755
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: got to be something other than these small acts of

756
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: community service is what they felt like to actually like

757
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 1: interrupt our flow and invite us into a grand adventure

758
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: in the same way that we saw our friends who

759
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: were having kids felt like they were in a grand adventure.

760
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 1: So I think part of it was jealousy, and part

761
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: of it was like I'm going to prove a point.

762
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,839
Speaker 1: My husband and I were like, let's be trained as

763
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: foster parents, which everyone is like, why, Like you knew

764
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: that you didn't really like love kids. I'm like, well, one,

765
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: we were home bodies, and so I think there was

766
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: something about, uh, some discernment we did around I think

767
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: the best relationships are going to happen in our home,

768
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: and so how can we keep opening our home to

769
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: other people and how can we keep letting our desire

770
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: to curate not snuff all the life out of what

771
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: kinds of relationships are possible in our lives. So fostering

772
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: just seemed like, Uh, we were in a church at

773
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: the time that was really into it, and so we're like,

774
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: I guess we could try that. And I'm thinking, like,

775
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to meet other adults in my community.

776
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to meet social workers and guardian aadlinems

777
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: and I'm just like people still are like what, And

778
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, I really didn't compute that of the endeavor

779
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: was children, and we were like, it's temporary, and we

780
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: felt like we were really good at goodbyes. We saw

781
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: a lot of families become foster parents with the intent

782
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: of adopting, and that's complicated because they'll tell you in

783
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: the training that reunification is the goal. Um. And so

784
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: we felt like we kind of had this superpower where, yeah,

785
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 1: we actually feel really equipped for fostering in a way

786
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: that everyone else is like, well, won't it be hard

787
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: to say goodbye? We're like, actually, we're really great at

788
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: like piecing out or like, wouldn't it be like really

789
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: hard to have like older kids you're probably gonna get

790
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: older kids, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know what

791
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: to do with the diaper um. And I would love

792
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: for them to be in school. I would love to

793
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: still have like five hours alone every day. Um. So

794
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: there were all of these things that other people thought

795
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: were deficits that we felt like we're assets, which I

796
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: think is a great way of discerning calling in life

797
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: is to be like this thing everyone else seems to

798
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: like not enjoy, I really like and geek out on

799
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: and think I'm like relatively good at So to to

800
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: make this story a tad shorter, we got license. As

801
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 1: foster parents are very first placement was three school aged

802
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: girls who were sisters, and very quickly the termination of

803
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: parental rights happened, and so we had to decide within

804
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: six months if we wanted to continue fostering in general,

805
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: if we wanted to put our name in the hat

806
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: to be their potential adoptive parents, or if we were

807
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: done with the endeavor altogether. Because it was it was

808
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: a rough, rough on ramp, and we did a Quaker

809
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: discernment committee. It's called a clearness committee I write about

810
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: in the book. It's a way of listening to your

811
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: deepest self, but having other people kind of help ask

812
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: you open and honest questions. And we came out of

813
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: that time not with not with like a valiant like

814
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna do it, but just like I think we're

815
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: more compelled by the yes is than the nose. And

816
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 1: so we ended up adopting these three girls, but again

817
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: because they were older, we were like I we we

818
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: see ourselves and want to see ourselves as guardians rather

819
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: than gatekeepers. Um. We still visit with their birth family regularly.

820
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: They're still a part of our lives, and we are

821
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: fully prepared for when our girls turn eighteen, um, that

822
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 1: they get to decide what kind of relationship they want

823
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: with us and they want with their birth family. So

824
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people thought it was like an about

825
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: face from our our calling. We we called ourselves. I

826
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: called ourselves child free for the common good, just to

827
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: like give a middle finger to anyone that thought we

828
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: were like child free for like TV watching reasons. I

829
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: don't know, right, and and I just I wanted to

830
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: say to people, no, no, no, this is exactly this

831
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: is exactly what we can do because we don't have,

832
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: you know, eight other children at home that that need

833
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: our attention because I'm a low capacity woman. Maybe someone

834
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: else can do that. Two things and that that are

835
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: so important. One, everything that you just talked about was

836
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: all about having a choice, Like everything you said was

837
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 1: like you talked about the choices that you made throughout

838
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: that process versus I felt like I had I would

839
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: being forced to do this and I had no choice,

840
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,399
Speaker 1: I was being told what to do. Is I made

841
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 1: a choice based on actually looking inward at myself, Like

842
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: that's so important. And then the other part that I

843
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 1: think people need to really hear is that when you

844
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: do make that choice to not have your own biological children,

845
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 1: a lot of times that opens up spaces that are

846
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 1: so especially now necessary for our country slash world to

847
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 1: continue to actually function, Like there has to be people

848
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: that had the capacity for you to do that, Like

849
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: there has to be so if you if you just

850
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: did the thing and had four kids of your own,

851
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 1: like that would have never been an option. And there's

852
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: a what would happen to the girls that you now

853
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: have with you, which I'm sure there's such an impact

854
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: on their life that you're making. So it all comes

855
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: down to like one, the choice, And then also again

856
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 1: like the small mindedness I think we accidentally fall into

857
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: because well, why why would I have to question these

858
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: things that people are telling me and you don't have

859
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: to question them? But I think what I'm hearing in

860
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: all of this conversation is it's actually really helpful to

861
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: question things, and because we need all kinds of kinds,

862
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 1: and so if we're all following the same script, I

863
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: think we just all get mired in our own worlds

864
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: rather than again experiencing what I think are like the

865
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: win win moments of being human where our mutual needs

866
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: because we're actually not able to cultivate and curate and

867
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: control our lives perfectly, those spaces where like the mutual

868
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: needs meet and it feels like a win win to

869
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: both people. Now I'm not suggesting that it felt like

870
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: a win to my girls. Um, they certainly wish they

871
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 1: could have returned home, and we wished likewise, But there

872
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 1: were other ways in which it felt like, well if

873
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 1: this were the reality, though, there's something that they add

874
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: to our lives that we had been longing for for

875
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: a really long time, like this, this more visceral connection

876
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: to our neighbors and people and the heartbeat of our community,

877
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 1: Like we were just very cut off from that because

878
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 1: of our social location, and then obviously we thought, yeah,

879
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: we did think, like, I hope this is useful to

880
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: their birth family, that they are being adopted by people

881
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: that want to keep a relationship going, who are not

882
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: trying to replace them. Our girls don't even call us

883
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: mom and dad because of where they were, how old

884
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: they were when they came to us, Like, I hope

885
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,399
Speaker 1: there's something about our are not trying to adopt them

886
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: and act as if we are their only parents. That

887
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: is life giving to to their birth family and this

888
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 1: really hard, impossible situation. And when I see those in life,

889
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: those are like those are like the holy moments to

890
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: me when it feels like something really hard is actually

891
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: like meeting mutual needs or feels like both of you

892
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 1: sort of lucked out and coming together. Oh my god. Okay,

893
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: And the one last thing I want to say before

894
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: we kind of close this out is something that I

895
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: also have heard throughout this that I think isn't talked

896
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: about or even talked about in a powerful way. Is

897
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: you saying like I'm a low capacity person, like it

898
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: can't take on that much. I just want to highlight

899
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: that at the end, of this because I think a

900
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: lot of people listening might really connect to that, and

901
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: for a lot of people that might connect to that,

902
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,720
Speaker 1: that that could have been a really like shameful experience before.

903
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: And I know that I'm somebody who has run myself

904
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: into the ground trying to be a high, high functioning

905
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: do it all all the time, never stop. And then

906
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: I realized like, oh my gosh, well I don't enjoy this,

907
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 1: and too, if I want to do good work like

908
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 1: as it they're as sip, I want to do really

909
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,280
Speaker 1: good work as a therapist. I can't see ten clients

910
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: in a day. I can't even see eight. And there

911
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 1: are some people that are like, yeah, I see twelve clients,

912
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, can't do that. Some days I

913
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: can only see four. And so I think that needs

914
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: to be kind of highlighted because if you are somebody

915
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 1: who's feels like more like I have less energy in

916
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: that way, that is like an okay thing, and it

917
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you don't have the capacity to do

918
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 1: good things. Yes, yeah, so I'm so glad you highlighted that. Yes,

919
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: I think, especially with the overwhelm that our country is experiencing,

920
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 1: uh following the news cycle following the pandemic, just following

921
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: a lot of personal griefs I know have happened in

922
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: people's lives over the last couple of years. Permission to

923
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 1: be low capacity, temporarily, permanently, seasonally, like it would make

924
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: so much sense if you needed to set a lot

925
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: of things down or not take a lot of things

926
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: on right now. And that is a perfectly good reason

927
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,760
Speaker 1: to not become a mother, to look at the world

928
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: and say, I'm really overwhelmed by what's happening. I really

929
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 1: don't think I can cultivate another life that's not already here.

930
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: So I'm going to focus on what's in front of

931
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: me and be faithful to that. That's a beautiful way

932
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: of being in the world. Yeah, And that's a beautiful

933
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: way to end this. So can you just for everybody

934
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 1: it's listening that wants to connect with you, can you

935
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 1: tell us where the best places to find you and

936
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: the best place to find your book? Yes, you can

937
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: find my book anywhere books are sold, but particularly if

938
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,320
Speaker 1: you have a local bookstore you love and they don't

939
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: carry it, asked them to carry it and tell them

940
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: that it's like the best parenting, not parenting book you've

941
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: ever read or want to read. And then you can

942
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: also find me at Aaron S Lane dot com. And

943
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: you can't find me on Instagram for the next month

944
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,479
Speaker 1: or so because I'm setting it all down. I'm doing

945
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: one less thing, so we'll be back. Um, it will

946
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: be back eventually, but it's at Hey Aaron Lane if

947
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: you want to follow along there, or my newsletter where um,

948
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: I say, I'm celebrating the less shiny bits of a

949
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: life well lived. Oh I love that. Okay, I'll be

950
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: getting that. Well. Thank you. I love this. This was

951
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: amazing and I can't wait to read your book now.

952
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of glad to have this backstory before

953
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: I get into the depths of it. So thank you

954
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: so much. Cool Cat, thanks for you and what you

955
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 1: do in the world. Thank you