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Speaker 1: Welcome to Drilled. I'm your host, Amy Westerbilt. We're working

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Speaker 1: on our next investigative series. It's now going to come

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Speaker 1: out in January, but trust me, the way it will

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Speaker 1: be worth it. In the meantime, we're bringing you updates

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Speaker 1: on some of the other climate lawsuits going on, some

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Speaker 1: of the cases that we've mentioned in the past. Today,

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Speaker 1: reporter Emily Gertz is joining US. Emily publishes a newsletter,

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Speaker 1: Deregulation Nation, that tracks the Trump administration's environmental rollbacks. She

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Speaker 1: also contributes to Drilled quite a bit, and today Emily

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Speaker 1: looked at two different cases where children are demanding climate

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Speaker 1: action through the US courts and international law. Emily, thanks

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Speaker 1: for being here. Oh, you're welcome.

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Speaker 2: It's great to be here.

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Speaker 3: So first, I feel like I should say that these

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Speaker 3: quote unquote children are now all like teams and twenty

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Speaker 3: year old, but.

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Speaker 2: Most of them in the first case we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about, yes, quite a few of them are no

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Speaker 2: longer miners, but some of them still are. Some of

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Speaker 2: them still are.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay, So let's look at this case that's working

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Speaker 3: its way through the federal courts. This is the one

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Speaker 3: that we've been hearing about for the last few years.

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Speaker 3: Juliana versus United States.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this story begins back in August of twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 2: That's when this group of twenty one young people, all

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Speaker 2: of them at the time were eighteen or younger, sued

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Speaker 2: the United States over climate change. The named plaintiff in

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Speaker 2: the case, who was nineteen at the time, is from Eugene,

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Speaker 2: Oregon and named Kelsey Juliana. So they filed the suit

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Speaker 2: in federal District Court in Eugene, Oregon, and it's the

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Speaker 2: name of the case became Juliana versus United States. The

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Speaker 2: main charge that these young people are bringing is that

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Speaker 2: by promoting the continued production and use of fossil fuels,

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Speaker 2: the US government has quote violated their fundamental constitutional rights

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Speaker 2: to freedom from deprivation of life, liberty, and property quote.

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Speaker 2: I spoke with one of the youth plaintiffs named Nathan Barring,

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Speaker 2: who was fifteen then and is twenty now, and he

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Speaker 2: told me about why he got involved in the case.

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Speaker 4: I was born in Fairbanks, Alaska. I am actually at

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Speaker 4: third generation Alaskan, so my grandparents moved up before statehood,

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Speaker 4: and my mom was also born in a small coastal

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Speaker 4: fishing village, and essentially, I to sum it up, I

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Speaker 4: was very involved in local environmental issues that were disconnected

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Speaker 4: from climate change. For a few years. I wrote my

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Speaker 4: first letter to the editor when I was thirteen about

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Speaker 4: actually air quality that was connected to woodsmoke from woodstoves.

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Speaker 4: So that was just a human a completely local human

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Speaker 4: problem that had nothing to do with climate change. But

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Speaker 4: as I got more involved in those in that kind

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Speaker 4: of advocacy, I quickly realized that the most pressing environmental

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Speaker 4: challenge that Alaska and the Arctic was facing was climate change,

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Speaker 4: especially when you know the figure that the Arctic is

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Speaker 4: warming twice as fast as the rest of the world

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Speaker 4: hit me. I realized that, you know, we might lose

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Speaker 4: this Arctic identity before you know, the end of my lifetime.

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Speaker 2: What changes have you seen in your lifetime in your

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Speaker 2: part of Alaska?

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Speaker 4: Sure, and I don't even you know, I don't even

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Speaker 4: have to keep it only in my lifetime, but certainly

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Speaker 4: in the amount of in the time that my parents

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Speaker 4: have been there. You know, it's very pronounced how much

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Speaker 4: milder and warmer and wetter the winters have gotten. You know,

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Speaker 4: the prevalence of winter ice storms, which you know when

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Speaker 4: the Chinook winds will blow in from the south and

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Speaker 4: it'll go from you know, twenty below to thirty two

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Speaker 4: above overnight basically, and then it'll rain and then it

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Speaker 4: will freeze again. It coats the whole ground and everything

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Speaker 4: in a thick lege or ice, which is you know,

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Speaker 4: detrimental to all conditions of life. So that would include

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Speaker 4: things like you know, driving that will usually cancel school

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Speaker 4: for that kind of thing. You know, there's tons of

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Speaker 4: problems in other areas of the state with things like

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Speaker 4: permafrost melt that are very connected to infrastructure, but of

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Speaker 4: course even more connected to the climate as a whole.

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Speaker 4: As methane is is four times as potent of a

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Speaker 4: greenhouse gas as you know, carbon dioxide, So when that

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Speaker 4: permafrost melts, it's releasing all of that methane into the atmosphere.

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Speaker 4: And you know, Alaska such a state that we practically

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Speaker 4: have like four or five different climates up there. So

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Speaker 4: when you look at places like on the coast, we're

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Speaker 4: seeing how the salmon runs are being affected by the

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Speaker 4: warming oceans and the ocean acidification that's coming as a

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Speaker 4: result of climate change. And then when you look up north,

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Speaker 4: especially in the Northwest, which is really pronounced. We're seeing

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Speaker 4: how the loss of Sea I in the formation of

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Speaker 4: CEA isolator in the year is leading to horrific coastal

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Speaker 4: erosion that is actually taking entire indigenous communities that have

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Speaker 4: been there for centuries just right away into the ocean,

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Speaker 4: so that they're forced to relocate.

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Speaker 3: I'm just going to jump in here to underscore the

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Speaker 3: point of the case because it gets it has been

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Speaker 3: misreported so many times as suing the government for not

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Speaker 3: acting on climate change, which is not what it is.

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Speaker 3: It's suing them for, you know, continuing to subsidize fossil

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Speaker 3: fuel production, continuing to create and adopt policies that tie

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Speaker 3: us to automotive transportation as like the sole mode of transportation,

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Speaker 3: all of that stuff. So it's really like the moves

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Speaker 3: that the government has made to lock us into a

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Speaker 3: fossil fueled economy, not failing to act on climate change,

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Speaker 3: which is how it has been reported a lot of times,

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Speaker 3: and I still see people saying that today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is actually a point that when I

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Speaker 2: speak to legal experts about this case, and when I've

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Speaker 2: spoken to the lead lawyer in the case, Julia Olsen,

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Speaker 2: that is a point they try to get out that

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Speaker 2: this isn't This case isn't about failure to act. This

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Speaker 2: case is about actually taking actions that are violating the

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Speaker 2: constitutional rights of the plaintiffs.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's Nathan Barring, one of the youth plaintiffs,

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Speaker 2: describing the effects of climate change that he and his

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Speaker 2: parents have already seen in Alaska. Several of the plaintiffs,

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Speaker 2: like Kelsey, who are from Oregon, have experienced intense droughts

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Speaker 2: and wildfires, and another is a New Yorker who experienced

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Speaker 2: the blackout caused by Hurricane Sandy. The youngest plane is

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Speaker 2: in this case is a twelve year old boy, he's

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Speaker 2: twelve now, who lives in a Florida Barrier Island and

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Speaker 2: they're dealing with with algael blooms and more intense storms

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Speaker 2: driven by warming oceans. So this is not theoretical. This

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Speaker 2: isn't in the future. These children are growing up and

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Speaker 2: young people are experiencing their young adulthoods with the impacts

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Speaker 2: of climate change actively affecting their lives for the worst.

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Speaker 3: That's really fascinating, and especially it really it's kind of

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Speaker 3: striking that he's twelve now, so he was seven years

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Speaker 3: old when this case was initially broad. That's incredible. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So these kids are suing the government for keeping policies

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Speaker 3: in place that are harming them and, by extension, all

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Speaker 3: children by making climate change worse. What's the legal question

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Speaker 3: at stake? Right?

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Speaker 2: Here's John Schwartz, a New York Times climate reporter who's

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Speaker 2: been covering this case, and he describes it very clearly

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Speaker 2: from your perspective as a reporter, What is the nut

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Speaker 2: of this litigation?

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Speaker 5: The question they're trying to get answered is is there

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Speaker 5: a constitutional right to a healthy climate, to a climate

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Speaker 5: that doesn't veer off into dangerous climate change with the

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Speaker 5: sort of temperature changes in extreme weather and the stuff

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Speaker 5: we're starting to see now, in which we will be

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Speaker 5: seeing much much more of as time goes on, if

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Speaker 5: we don't take the kind of action that's necessary to it.

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Speaker 3: So why not sue the producers of oil, coal and

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Speaker 3: natural gas like some of the communities that we've talked

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Speaker 3: about and talked to on drilled well.

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Speaker 2: Julia Olsen, the lead lawyer in the case that which

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Speaker 2: is to say, the lead lawyer for the youth plaintiffs,

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Speaker 2: says that they've suited the government because Ultimately, it's the

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Speaker 2: government's active support of fossil fuels that violates the constitutional

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Speaker 2: rights of these young people. Here's how Julia Olsen explains

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Speaker 2: that well.

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Speaker 6: As a lawyer, I'm looking at the party most responsible

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Speaker 6: for causing the harm, and I'm also looking at the

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Speaker 6: remedy that's available to really stop the climate emergency from

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Speaker 6: worsening and to begin to redress it so that we

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Speaker 6: can protect these fundamental life support resources for these young people.

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Speaker 6: And when I look at the party most responsible, it

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Speaker 6: is the United States government, historically and presently because of

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Speaker 6: the government's creation of promotion, of support of a national

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Speaker 6: fossil fuel energy system, and now, you know, particularly under

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Speaker 6: this administration, a push to be what the President calls

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Speaker 6: energy dominant in the world, and in this administration's view,

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Speaker 6: that means fossil fuel energy dominant, you know, promoting and

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Speaker 6: facilitating the extraction and exportation of our domestic fossil fuel

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Speaker 6: resources so that the rest of the world can continue

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Speaker 6: using them as well as us use them domestically. So

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Speaker 6: the case is about the government's affirmative acts that have

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Speaker 6: put these young people in a position of danger and

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Speaker 6: continue to act in ways that are enhancing the danger

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Speaker 6: for young people. I think it's a question of inner

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Speaker 6: generational injustice. I think it's discriminating against the young people

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Speaker 6: living today, but also all future generations and people who

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Speaker 6: aren't even yet born yet.

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Speaker 3: So really interesting thing about this case, alongside this big

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Speaker 3: new question that it's asking about a constitutional right to

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Speaker 3: a Liverpool climate, is that it's still in court at all.

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Speaker 3: It's been There's like, so many people have tried to

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Speaker 3: get this thrown out the Obama administration and tried to

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Speaker 3: have it dismissed without any hearings or a trial, and

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Speaker 3: so has the Trump administration. But federal judges have rejected

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Speaker 3: those attempts, and the Supreme Court also turned the Trump

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Speaker 3: Justice Department down when it tried to leap over the

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Speaker 3: lower courts to get it thrown out, which is a

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Speaker 3: real indication that, like, you know, the court system wants

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Speaker 3: to see this case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. It's even more amazing considering that the

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Speaker 2: fossil fuel industry initially joined the government to try and

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Speaker 2: stop the case. In that process, the government and the

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Speaker 2: industry essentially agreed with the kids that climate change is real,

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Speaker 2: a fact that may surprise some people who are activists

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Speaker 2: in this realm, but they did allow that that was true.

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Speaker 2: Climate change is real and it's a huge threat to

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Speaker 2: the well being of these young people. But what the

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Speaker 2: government and the fossil fuel industry jointly argued at that

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Speaker 2: point was that the government has no constitutional to do

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Speaker 2: anything about that. So the trial is not about whether

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Speaker 2: climate change is real. It's about whether the Constitution can

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Speaker 2: be read to guarantee people the right to a stable climate,

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Speaker 2: you might say, the right to a climate in which

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Speaker 2: they can pursue life and liberty and happiness.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it really feels to me like the life

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Speaker 3: part is pretty valid, Like people are dying already. All

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Speaker 3: the projections are showing that that is going to be

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Speaker 3: part of climate change, and yeah, it's really is It's

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Speaker 3: really interesting. Okay, So fast forward to June twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 3: Fossil feel industry drops out of the case. Do we

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Speaker 3: know why.

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Speaker 2: Well, we don't know exactly why, but we can speculate

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Speaker 2: from their perspective. At that point it may have become

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Speaker 2: too risky to stay on board with the government because

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Speaker 2: at that point it became more likely that the case

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Speaker 2: was going to go to trial. When the case goes

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Speaker 2: to trial, of course, all the parties become subject to

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Speaker 2: pre trial discovery, which for the industry might have well

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Speaker 2: meant giving Julia Olsen, this lawyer for the youth plaintiffs materials,

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Speaker 2: you know, internal company documents about climate change or policy lobbying,

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Speaker 2: whatever is relevant to the case. And this could be

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Speaker 2: stuff they'd rather keep private, and therefore, from their perspective,

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Speaker 2: getting off the case at that point may have made

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Speaker 2: more sense.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So where does Juliana versus the United States stand now?

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Speaker 2: Well, this past June, lawyers for both sides appeared at

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Speaker 2: a hearing before a three judge panel, a federal three

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Speaker 2: judge panel. The judges asked them both a lot of

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Speaker 2: tough questions about climate change and about the legal basis

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Speaker 2: for the case to go to trial, and now we're

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Speaker 2: waiting for their decision. John Schwartz of The New York Times,

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Speaker 2: who I spoke to about the case, says, there's really

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Speaker 2: no way to know whether or not the judges will

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Speaker 2: allow the case to go to trial.

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Speaker 5: There are many things that can happen. Then, as they say,

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Speaker 5: with a forward pass, you know, three things can happen.

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Speaker 5: Two of them are bad. The case can get derailed,

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Speaker 5: it can go back down to the district court and

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Speaker 5: the trial can begin, or they can make it, or

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Speaker 5: they can issue their decision, and either or the other

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Speaker 5: side will appeal to the United States Supreme Court. Again,

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Speaker 5: It's been before the Supreme Court twice on these interlocutory motions,

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Speaker 5: on these appeals that come up before you even get

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Speaker 5: to start the trial.

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Speaker 3: So there's an equally exciting international case going on right

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Speaker 3: This is involving Swedish climate activist Gretathenburg and a handful

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Speaker 3: of other climate activists yep YEP.

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Speaker 2: On the same day as the United Nations Climate Summit

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Speaker 2: in September, Tunberg and fifteen other young people from around

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Speaker 2: the world filed a complaint with the United Nations against

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Speaker 2: five countries. Those countries are Argentina, Brazil, France, Germany and Turkey.

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Speaker 2: And the complaint that these young people have made and

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Speaker 2: these this group of people is aged eight to seventeen.

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Speaker 2: They state that by continuing to promote fossil fuels and

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Speaker 2: failing to curb carbon emissions fast enough, that these countries

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Speaker 2: are threatening their lives in future livelihoods, which they say

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Speaker 2: violates their human rights under a very specific international treaty

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Speaker 2: called the Convention of the Rights of the Child.

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Speaker 3: That's super interesting. So as you were saying the list

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Speaker 3: of countries, I was like, why wasn't the United States

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Speaker 3: included in this? But it's, of course, because the United

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Speaker 3: States hasn't signed on to the Convention of the.

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Speaker 2: Right I mean, which is you know, which I mean

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Speaker 2: isn't specific to that treaty. The US actually doesn't sign

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Speaker 2: on to many international treaties because of the feeling that

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Speaker 2: it would be handing off sovereignty of domestic policy to

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Speaker 2: foreign entity. So yeah, so so, I mean, it feels

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Speaker 2: especially morally glaring that we're not signed on to this,

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Speaker 2: you know, a treaty protecting the rights of children. But

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Speaker 2: in international terms, unfortunately, it's not that unusual.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So this sound this case sounds pretty similar to

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Speaker 3: the Juliata complaint, is it? Or are they making a

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Speaker 3: totally different argument there?

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Speaker 2: There are some at least superficial similarities between this international

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Speaker 2: case and the Juliana versus United States case. Both groups

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Speaker 2: of children are making similar accusations that governments are actively

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Speaker 2: doing things right now that are going to intensify future

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Speaker 2: climate change, and that they're doing them despite knowing that

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Speaker 2: those actions will make things worse for the children who

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Speaker 2: are alive today and worse than they might otherwise have

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Speaker 2: to be if the government was ramping down climate emissions sooner.

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Speaker 2: I spoke with Ramine Pajan of Earth Justice, one of

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Speaker 2: the co councils in this United Nations complaint, and here's

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Speaker 2: how he contrasts the two cases.

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Speaker 7: First of all, that Juliana case is extremely important, and

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Speaker 7: our case really is a supplement to that case. These

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Speaker 7: those kind of cases where children are bringing are challenging

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Speaker 7: actions and in actions of their respective governments in their

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Speaker 7: countries is very important, and our case is a little

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Speaker 7: bit different. And I think the first difference is in

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Speaker 7: the case of Juliana, we haven't named the United States

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Speaker 7: as a party because, as I said earlier, they have

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Speaker 7: not agreed to this treaty, the only country in the

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Speaker 7: world that has not agreed to it. The other really

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Speaker 7: big difference is that we are bringing a claim. These petitioners,

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Speaker 7: these youths, are bringing a claim against five countries together,

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Speaker 7: which means that for them to do that at the

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Speaker 7: national level, they would need to bring five different cases

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Speaker 7: and five different countries. And we argue that that's really

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Speaker 7: burdensome and costly. But not only that, if they were

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Speaker 7: to bring a case in Brazil, they could not challenge

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Speaker 7: the actions or inactions for example, Turkey through Brazilian court

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Speaker 7: cases because of foreign sovereign immunity principles. So the type

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Speaker 7: of case that we're bringing is sort of directed at

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Speaker 7: five countries. It would be too hard to bring them

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Speaker 7: in each country. But then also from a legal perspective,

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Speaker 7: we're making arguments about international cooperation and the need for

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Speaker 7: each of these countries that we have brought the case

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Speaker 7: against to do more at the international level to ensure

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Speaker 7: that other polluters are also reducing their emissions. So that

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Speaker 7: particular claim is a little bit different than the typically

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Speaker 7: the kind of claims that are brought at the national

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Speaker 7: level courts.

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Speaker 2: So that was Ramin Pajan. According to him, these five

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Speaker 2: countries are significant in three ways. The five countries that

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Speaker 2: are named in this complaint, they're among the biggest historical

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Speaker 2: and current greenhouse gas emitters. Each has agreed that children

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Speaker 2: from their countries can make human rights complaints against them

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Speaker 2: and seek justice under the Human Rights of the Child Treaty.

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Speaker 2: And each of these countries is a member of the

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Speaker 2: G twenty group of major economic powers.

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Speaker 3: So if the UN finds against them here and they

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Speaker 3: curb their support for fossil fuels as a result, it

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Speaker 3: might put some sort of pressure on other wealthy nations

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Speaker 3: to follow suit. Yeah, is that like a fair assumption.

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Speaker 2: That's the working assumption as best I can take away.

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Speaker 2: Some nations take following these UN agreements more seriously than

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Speaker 2: the US often seems to do, or at least they

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Speaker 2: don't like being called out publicly on not following them.

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Speaker 2: Jean and his co counsul Michael Hosfeld say that they

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Speaker 2: would not have brought this suit. Excuse me, it's not

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Speaker 2: a suit, it's a complaint. They would not have brought

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Speaker 2: this complaint if they didn't think it could ultimately pressure

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Speaker 2: big carbon polluters to work harder and faster to get

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Speaker 2: off fossil fuels.

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Speaker 3: That's super interesting. I imagine that the fact that Greta

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Speaker 3: has become world famous probably helps with the kind of

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Speaker 3: public shaming or like call out on this too. Who

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Speaker 3: are some of the other kids that have joined this complaint?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is truly a global group of people. There

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Speaker 2: are two suites, Greta and an eight year old Sammi

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Speaker 2: reindeer herder named ellen Ann, and the other kids in

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Speaker 2: this complaint come from Argentina, Brazil, France, Germany, India, Palau,

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Speaker 2: the Marshall Islands, Nigeria, South Africa, Tunisia and the United States.

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Speaker 3: Wow, that's an incredible group. So there are American kids

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Speaker 3: on this complaint too. How does that work if they're not?

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Speaker 3: I don't know, like, do the complainants have to be

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Speaker 3: from some of the countries that are being charged here?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You know. Actually that's a good question of why

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Speaker 2: they found some plaintiffs from the United States to join

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Speaker 2: this complaint when the US isn't a signatory on the treaty,

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Speaker 2: And to be honest, I would have to follow up

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Speaker 2: to learn more about that. One of those Americans, though,

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Speaker 2: is Carl Smith. He's a seventeen year old Upac from

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Speaker 2: western Alaska. Like ellen Ann, the Swedish Sami girl, he's

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Speaker 2: an indigenous person whose ancient way of life depends on

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Speaker 2: a reliably colder climate, and they both live in or

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Speaker 2: near the Arctic, which has already warmed up much faster

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Speaker 2: than most of the rest of the world. There's another

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Speaker 2: American on the case. Her name is Alexandria via Signor.

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Speaker 2: She's fourteen and she's also a Friday's for Future School

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Speaker 2: strike leader here in New York City, and she and

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Speaker 2: I talked about why she's part of this case.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so I guess what had actually made me get

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Speaker 8: involved in organizing and becoming a climate actvis was I

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Speaker 8: was visiting family back in northern California, where I was

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Speaker 8: born and raised, and I was visiting family when the

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Speaker 8: Paradise Fire broke out, and so Paradise had quickly became

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Speaker 8: the worst wildfire in California's history, and many people died

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Speaker 8: and lost their loved ones, and a lot of homes

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Speaker 8: were destroyed.

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Speaker 9: And I was so close to this fire, and I

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Speaker 9: was seeing what.

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Speaker 8: Was happening to the community around us, and as well

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Speaker 8: experiencing that smoke. The smoke was seeping into my house.

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Speaker 8: It was inflaming my asthma and making me very sick,

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Speaker 8: and seeing how people were in the community were handing

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Speaker 8: out these face masks to keep out the harmful particles

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Speaker 8: from the smoke. But the face mass didn't actually keep

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Speaker 8: out what was harmful to you. It was actually you

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Speaker 8: weren't protecting yourself from from the effects and so that

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Speaker 8: shows how we are so unprepared to really protect ourselves

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Speaker 8: from the climate crisis. And so because of how I

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Speaker 8: was in such a unsafe situation, my family had to

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Speaker 8: send me back to New York City early. And at

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Speaker 8: that point, once I got back, I was really upset

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Speaker 8: and I wanted to.

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Speaker 9: Get involved and I wanted to do something about it.

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Speaker 8: And so I started to research the effects of the

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Speaker 8: climate crisis, and I started to research wildfires, and I

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Speaker 8: saw the connection between climate change in California's wildfires. And

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Speaker 8: because of that, that made me want to take action

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Speaker 8: and really do something and make my voice heard. And

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Speaker 8: only after seeing Gretitenberg speak at COP twenty four is

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Speaker 8: what made me know what I could do and what

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Speaker 8: I could really do to make my voice heard.

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Speaker 9: And so that is why I started my weekly climate

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Speaker 9: strike on December fourteenth of twenty eighteen. And it was

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Speaker 9: after seeing how the.

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Speaker 8: Climate crisis is affecting my hometown, but also seeing.

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Speaker 9: How the climate crisis is hitting people all around the world.

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Speaker 3: So COP twenty four, which she mentions, there was the

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Speaker 3: twenty eighteen International Climate Treaty Conference in Poland, which didn't

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Speaker 3: really move the needle on global climate action right.

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Speaker 2: It was a letdown, just like September's UN Climate Summit,

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Speaker 2: and just like the Poland meeting. It's what young people

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Speaker 2: and not nations did at these meetings that seems to

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Speaker 2: have had the biggest impact so far in terms of

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Speaker 2: building support to slash fossil fuels.

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Speaker 3: It comes next with this UN children's case.

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Speaker 2: Well, now we're waiting to hear if the UN Committee

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Speaker 2: on the Rights of the Child takes up the case.

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Speaker 2: If they do, they'll start investigating the charges that the

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Speaker 2: young people have made, and that could include getting testimony

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Speaker 2: from the kids and others on the climate effects of

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Speaker 2: continuing to promote the use of fossil fuels. Eventually, this

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Speaker 2: committee will release its findings about whether or not the

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Speaker 2: five nations have violated these kids' rights and what needs

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Speaker 2: to happen if they have. The two co councils, Pijan

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Speaker 2: and Hausfeld say that these sorts of human rights investigations

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Speaker 2: can take a year or more, but they're hopeful that

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Speaker 2: given the severity that the climate crisis is already showing,

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Speaker 2: that the committee will recognize that this is urgent and

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Speaker 2: that they will work faster.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's all super interesting. Thanks Emily keep us posted

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Speaker 3: on what happens next. In both these cases, we'll do.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's it for this episode. We'll have a couple

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Speaker 1: more bonus episodes for you in December, and then we

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Speaker 1: will go dark for a few weeks and bring you

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Speaker 1: season three in January. Stay tuned for that and we'll

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Speaker 1: see you next time. Thanks a lot.

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Speaker 3: Drilled is produced and distributed by Critical Frequency.

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Speaker 1: The show was created and reported by me. Our music

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Speaker 1: is by Martin Wissenberg. You can find Drilled wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and please remember to drop us a

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Speaker 1: rating or review.

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Speaker 3: It really helps us find new listeners.