1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: The final days of Jeffrey Epstein, culminating in finding him 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: dead in his Gael cell. It's hard to believe that 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: so many coincidences occurred to create a perfect storm. The 4 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: not one guard, but two guards decided to take a 5 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: nap and shop online. Both of them didn't do a 6 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: single round, not one for their whole shift several hours, 7 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: eight hours at least. The video recorder just happened not 8 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: to be working, and or they preserved the wrong video 9 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: the hours before the suicide. The actual death of Epstein 10 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: his cellmate is removed, even though after a suicide, you're 11 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: supposed to have a cellmate, a suicide attempt, supposed to 12 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: have a sealemate. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, I Meancy Grace. 13 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, 14 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: with me an all star panel to figure out what's next. 15 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:24,559 Speaker 1: James Shelonut with me twenty seven years Metro Major kse 16 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: Swat officer retired now lawyer Bobby Jacoon, former special agent FBI, 17 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: star of Facebook watch series Curse of Akacre. Professor Forensics, 18 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. 19 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan renounce psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills at 20 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Melissa Cronin, investigative journalist and 21 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: co author of Epstein Dead Men Tell No Tales. Now, 22 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: I've been around the block more times than I can count. 23 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: I've been in more jails and I can even remember. 24 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: And I can tell you the addition of his jail 25 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: cell at the time of his death was highly irregular 26 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: in many, many ways. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor forensics, 27 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Now, 28 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: let's just start with what you observed before we get 29 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: into his autopsy. What you observed that was so wrong 30 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: with his jail cell. These images that I've seen were provided, 31 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: you know, from the sixty minutes special that was that 32 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: was done, and I was shocked, I have to admit. 33 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: You know, in in correctional facilities, prison facilities, it is 34 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: paramount that that prisoners commonly keep their cell in an 35 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: ordered fashion because you know, chaos and er it's like 36 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: a child, you know, chaos in a room leads to 37 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: chaos in the mind. It makes it very difficult to 38 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: control people when you look at the interior of your cell, Nancy, 39 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: and people can see this online. It's squalid. You know, 40 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: you've got you've got piles of cloth laying everywhere. It's 41 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: all orange cloth, mattress laying on the floor, and it's 42 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: it's dirty. You can actually see stains on the floor. 43 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, I agree with what the gentleman said in 44 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: the interview about it having potentially having bugs and lord 45 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,119 Speaker 1: only knows what else. But one of the things that's 46 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: really troubling about this whole thing. Two major things. This 47 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: guy's has recently been on suicide Watch, Okay, but yet 48 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: when I take a look at these images, it's observable 49 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: you can actually see what appears to be a hose 50 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: laying on the floor that might be an inch and 51 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: a half in diameter, it's kind of lengthy, and you 52 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: can see an electrical cord that's laying on the floor. Now, 53 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: these are something that can be used to facilitate as 54 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: a ligature for hanging or for any other purpose that 55 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: you might want to do. This nefarious And another piece 56 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: to this, when you take a look at his top bump, 57 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: there's two it's a two bump structure, the top bunk, 58 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: the mattress is missing off of it, and this guy 59 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: has gotten met occasions up there, He's allowed to keep 60 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: his own medications in the cell. It's striking, you know 61 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: when you consider about you know, you consider a lot 62 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: of the correctional desks that I've worked. If a patient, 63 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: if a prisoner slash patient is on meds, those have 64 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: to be distributed by the infirmary. The nurse will come 65 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: by along with a guard and they'll give you your 66 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: daily meds. This guy had a slew of medications up there. 67 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: So this whole thing is very, very troubling when you 68 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: take a look at it in the context that he 69 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: had allegedly previously attempted to kill himself. Listen, what we 70 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: do know is that Jeffrey Epstein is dead. The fingerprints 71 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: of the body and the morgue matched the fingerprints that 72 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: were taken up Jeffrey Epstein from when he was booked 73 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: in Florida. How long does the autopsy typically take it 74 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: from the beginning name normally about two hours a routino autopsy. 75 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: We spoke to multiple pathologists for this story, and they 76 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: all pretty much agree on one thing. Without knowing the 77 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: position of the body, way the Jeffrey Epstein's body was found, 78 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: It's almost impossible to determine the cause of death with 79 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: any certainty. Knowing the position that a body was found 80 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: in is a key piece of evidence in any death investigation. 81 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: And in this case, we don't know how Jeffrey Epstein's 82 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: body was found. We still don't have that information. So 83 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: if this was called a suicide without all that information, 84 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: was a premature judgment. Hearing our friends at sixty minute 85 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: and our friend doctor Michael Boden, who oversaw the autopsy 86 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: without knowing the position of the body, no way to 87 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: know the true cause of death. Joseph Scott Morgan, Friends's expert. 88 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: Why well, you know, one of the problems is that 89 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: what doctor Biden's talking about, he can't contextualize what he's 90 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: seeing at autopsy along with what the findings aren't seeing, 91 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: you know, and he doesn't know that because these people 92 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: have been haven't provided a statement yet, they've locked it, 93 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: they've been locked down, these guards and this sort of thing. 94 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: So this is essential, you know, when you begin to 95 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: think about this, and I'm reflecting back to one of 96 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: the images that folks can see online. He's one of 97 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: the things that doctor Biden is talking about. It's so 98 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,559 Speaker 1: perplexing is that Epstein has got a specific linear mark 99 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: on his neck and it runs almost parallel to the shoulders. 100 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: In other words, it's on the neck and it runs 101 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: straight back. With hangings, typically what you're going to see 102 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: is something called tinting feature T N T I N G, 103 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: like a pup tent. That is that someone is hung, 104 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: if they have hung themselves, for instance, the back of 105 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: the noose that they have created will come to an 106 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: acute point in the back of the head, and so 107 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: it's going to pull the ligature mark up behind the ears. Typically, 108 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: that's not what you're seeing in this image. And granted 109 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: we're only limited. We have a limited view of this. 110 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: I didn't see what Biden saw it to autopsy, and 111 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: I certainly haven't seen all of the images. But just 112 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: at first blush looking at this. This is why he's saying, 113 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: this is not consistent with a typical hanging. I'm not 114 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: saying it could be atypical, but it's it's just not 115 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: typical of what you normally see in these downs cases. 116 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: Typically with a hanging, you see a mark on the 117 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,679 Speaker 1: neck that looks like a V or a sharp smile 118 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: because the ligature goes upwards in the back due to 119 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: the pressure placed on the neck. Speaking of the pressure 120 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: placed on the neck, there are three snaps in the neck, 121 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: one on the right, one on the left, one of 122 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: the highoid. Very unusual for a suicide, very rare. In fact, 123 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: I've never seen multiple snaps in the neck when it 124 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: was not a homicide in all my years of assessing 125 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: homicides and suicides. Not once. Also, as Joseph's gott Morgan 126 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: pointing it out, there is a horizontal line across Epstein's neck, 127 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: not the typical V shape or smile shape left from 128 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: a hanging. To hang oneself from the side of a 129 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: bunk bed does not allow for any velocity at the 130 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: hanging that you would see. For instance, when you watch 131 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: a movie somebody gets hung they jump off something, or 132 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: they're pushed off something, and that velocity actually can snap 133 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: a bone in the neck. When you are easing yourself 134 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: forward from a low bunk bed, you don't get that velocity. 135 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: There should not have been any broken bones. To Melissa Cronin, 136 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: journalist co author Epstein dead mentell no tells what do 137 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: you make of the state of his cell and all 138 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: of the coincidences, not one, not two, but eight, nine, 139 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: ten coincidences leading up to his death. It really, every 140 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: single piece of information that comes out about this over 141 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 1: the last few months just makes me more and more incredulous. 142 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: One of the first things that I heard about kind 143 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: of his state of mind in this period was when 144 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: I spoke to a man who had visited with him 145 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: a week before he supposedly committed suicide for the final time, 146 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: a man named David Shone, an attorney from Georgia. He 147 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: was a longtime friend of Epstein, who visited with him 148 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 1: on August first, and he said that he was in 149 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: great spirit and that he was planning for the next 150 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,719 Speaker 1: stage of his legal fight. So from that moment forward, 151 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: everything that happened seems totally counter to what you might 152 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: expect from a man in that position, and leading up 153 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: until the photos that came out just over a little 154 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: week ago. It's just I'm still trying to wrap my 155 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: head around it. Honestly, If he well, when is it, 156 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: Melissa that his lawyers last spoke to him, wasn't in 157 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: the hours just before his death. If they were meeting 158 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: with him every single day when he was in jail, 159 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: so yes, they saw him just a few hours before 160 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: he supposedly committed suicide. And although he did change as 161 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: well and sign a will, which might make you think 162 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: he was thinking of his death, it's still overall, it's 163 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: still just hard to believe that the official story is 164 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: what actually happened. So the lawyer saw him around six 165 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: pm that evening. At what time was his death? We 166 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: think it was in the early early morning hours. Take 167 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at sixty minutes. Guards found Deps. 168 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: Dean had approximately six thirty three am, and sources say 169 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: one of them could be overheard saying bread Depstein breath. 170 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guards found Deps. Dean in 171 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: approximately six thirty three am, and sources say one of 172 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: them could be overheard saying, breathe Epstein, breathe. I thought 173 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: at the time. Doctor Bond believes, based on the autopsy, 174 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: that Epstein died around four thirty that morning, two hours earlier. 175 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: The guards say they came in at six thirty, They 176 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: found him, They call emergency services. They tried to do 177 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: CPR with him, but he's dead. But rather than leave 178 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: the body there, they take the body to an emergency room. Yeah, 179 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: is that normal protocol? No, that's not normal protocol. The 180 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: EMS people normally and especially in jail, should not move 181 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: a dead body. He's right. Bureau of Prison protocol mandates 182 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: a suicide scene should be treated with the same level 183 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: of protection as any crime scene in which a death 184 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: has occurred. A daughter, Bethany Marshall, he was upbeat, last 185 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: words to his lawyers, see a Sunday, and then in 186 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: about eight hours he kills himself. What do you make 187 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: of that, Bethany? You know, Nancy? An argument could be 188 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: made either way and turn of suicide. Often people are 189 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: upbeat before they prematurely terminate their life, and he had 190 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: a lot of the psychological characteristics that lead to suicide 191 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: amongst the elderly. A change in life circumstances would be 192 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: one impulsivity like the type of obsessive compulsive disorder or 193 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: decision making asset dysregulation, which is a fancy term for 194 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: not being able to control your impulses. So one could 195 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 1: make an argument that in the matrix of his mind, 196 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: he was happy because he was going to kill himself. 197 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: On the other hand, in terms of a group psychology perspective, 198 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: one could make the argument for a homicide. Sex offenders 199 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: are hated in prison, and on the other hand, he 200 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: was a huge public figure. This is a huge case. 201 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: Everybody knew about it. If some harm befelt him behind bars, 202 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: there could be some kind of prison cover up because 203 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: the prison doesn't want any more attention called to a 204 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: deplorable system, because this has been in the news every day, 205 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: how horrible our prison system is, and this would be 206 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: just one more example of squalid conditions, and there could 207 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: be a cover up because of that. One young woman 208 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: claiming she was Epstein's sex victim, says she was sex 209 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:23,239 Speaker 1: assaulted by the pedophile who called himself her quote godfather, 210 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: full on raping her when she was thirteen years old. 211 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: This girl, puts in sworn affidavits, says she meets Epstein 212 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 1: and his pimp jell and Maxwell, at Michigan's Interlocent Arts 213 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: camp where she was invoice training. This according to court 214 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: documents now filed, the two quickly take her under their wing, 215 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: taking her on shopping sprees in her home state of Florida, 216 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: taking her out on the town, taking her to movies. 217 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: But according to her and these court documents, Epstein slowly 218 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: begins pedophilia when shopping with her and Maxwell instead of 219 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: letting her pick out close she wanted, he Epstein says, 220 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: she pick out and where little girls cotton underwear? Bethany, 221 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: help me, Well, let's think of pedophilia and pedophilia, there 222 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: are more than five years age difference between the victim 223 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: and the perpetrator. The victim is usually either prepubescent or 224 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: is around the area of pubescence, So the fact that 225 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: she was thirteen years old means that she meets that criteria. 226 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: He's obviously not able to procure children little girls, so 227 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: he ages up just a little bit into an adolescent 228 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: and then tries to dress her like she's a smaller child. 229 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: These shopping sprees are a very elaborate, expensive way to 230 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: groom the victim. And I think that what he is doing, 231 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: it's a little like across between sex trafficking and a 232 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: sex cult. Often with a sex cult, you have a 233 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: sex obsessed, very powerful, sociopathic leader who recruits other women 234 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: and other people to procure women to come into the cult. 235 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: And he can't quite do it that way, you know, 236 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: it's not like these women are these girls are willingly 237 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: a part of a cult. But he tries to seduce 238 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: them as if to have a fantasy that they're going 239 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: to join the family. And I think one final piece 240 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: is with this type of pedophilia, often there's like a mommy, daddy, 241 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: little girl fantasy, so that he and Jolaine may have 242 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: had this fantasy of like this is their little girl 243 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: as well as their sex slave, and they were carrying 244 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: out this sort of frenzied sexual fantasy together. You're talking 245 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: about the death of billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Evstain, who has 246 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: found dead in a correctional facility in New York. This 247 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: is who Epstein is. This little girl whose lawyers have 248 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: now filed claims against Epstein and his female pimp, aristocrat 249 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: Gillen Maxwell. She says in sworn statements that she was 250 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: approached by these two at age thirteen and that they 251 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: get to one of his apartments in New York City 252 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: and he would allegedly rape her there over the next year, 253 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: even though she resisted. Doe says she was forced on 254 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: her stomach and rape that Epstein stated. Epstein stated when 255 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: she ever did was old enough for a boyfriend, she 256 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: would quote want the sex to be good and that 257 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: she should quote get it over with already, meaning losing 258 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: her virginity. Okay, that's who we're talking about. Those are 259 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: claims made in her civil lawsuit. This guy escaped justice 260 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: for years in the state of Florida. Even though he 261 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: got a swat on the wrist for child sex. He 262 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: was allowed in and out in Delhi from his jail 263 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: sale into his chauffeurd car to his office where there 264 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: would be a parade of young girls in and out. 265 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: Then in the evening, his chauffeur was just driving back 266 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: to the jail. I mean to Melissa Crona, an investigative 267 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: journalist co author Epstein Dead Men Tell Hotels, So al 268 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: was too much to believe that that happened under the 269 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 1: watch of the Florida law enforcement. It is, and you know, 270 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: even some members of law enforcements themselves have come out 271 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: and said how outrageous it was. There's a man named 272 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: John Mark Dugan who was the Deputy sheriff of Palm 273 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: Beach County at the time that Epstein was in prison there, 274 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: and he was in charge of overseeing Epstein's work release. 275 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: We spoke to him and he said that the officer 276 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: who worked with Epstein actually called him the client instead 277 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: of something like the Inmate, which shows just how far 278 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: they were willing to bend the rules for this man. Now, 279 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: Dugan was so disgusted that he eventually quit the force 280 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: and he even left the state of Florida because he 281 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: was so concerned that that they would come after him 282 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: for retribution, because he was talking about how ridiculous it 283 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: was and how out of order it was that they 284 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: let a man who was a known predator back out 285 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: into the community when he was supposed to be serving 286 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: time for those crimes. And now, coincidentally, all of those 287 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: logs stating visitors in and out of the building where 288 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: STA's office was have been lost to doctor Bethany Marshall, 289 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills. You can find 290 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. What is a 291 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: mentality of someone that stands by and let something horrible happen, 292 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: something horribly unjust and wrong. How you're talking about Maxwell, 293 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: Jelene or all these stuff? Well, well, first of all, 294 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think Gil and Maxwell stood 295 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: by and watched anything. Gil and Maxwell, according to many 296 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: of these little girls, not just one of them, but 297 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: many of them, would actually recruit them from public places 298 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: like a park, like a mall to meet Epstein and 299 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: then get raped by him and tell them what to 300 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: do to quote please him. She wasn't on the sideline, 301 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: she was part of it. I'm talking about law enforcement, 302 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: and you know I usually side with them. But to 303 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: stand by and watch a predator, a pedophile go in 304 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: and out of jail every day in a chauffeured car, 305 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: that is wrong, Bethany How could they stand by and 306 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: watch and do not? Only Nancy? It is wrong? And 307 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: I think it's the same mentality as women who fall 308 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: in love with men behind bars. They pretend not to 309 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: put their thoughts together about what's really happening. They see 310 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: the perpetrator as having some kind of a powerful position 311 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: in society. I think the law enforcement who stood by 312 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: may have had secret sexual fantasies themselves, believing that having 313 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: sex with underaged girls is somehow okay. Perhaps they were 314 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: deprived in terms of excitement in their own lives and 315 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: they had this pathological need for stimulation, so inserting themselves 316 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: fantasy wise, into Jeffrey Epstein's life was very exciting for them. 317 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: It's like, Ooh, where is he going? What's happening. And 318 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: then there's the idea of Jeffrey Epstein's celebrity. You know, 319 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: people who are celebrities often are immune from consequences, and 320 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: they saw him as powerful and rich, and how could 321 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: anything bad happen to such a rich, powerful man. We 322 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: better call him the client, and we'd better let him 323 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: come and go at will. But I think, deep down, 324 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: the darkest, most horrible part of this is I think 325 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: law enforcement knew that little girls were being raped, and 326 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: they took some secret satisfaction. They minimized it, and they 327 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: thought it was no big deal. Nancy to Bobby J. Come, 328 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: former FBI current star on Facebook watch series Curse of Acacres, 329 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 1: how do you think this happened was allowed to happen? 330 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: It wasn't an accident that Epstein got in and out 331 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: of his jail in Florida every day to clearly go 332 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: rape other children in his law office was chauffeured to it. 333 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: How did law enforcements stand by and not only let 334 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: happen but facilitated Why? I really I take exception to 335 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: those characterizations. Clearly it wasn't facilitated by anyone law enforcement 336 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: the troops. Oh oh wait, wait, wait, wait, well, hold on, 337 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: wait a minute, Bobby, that's not correct. It correct, Melissa Cronin. 338 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: Isn't it true that they jail in Florida let him 339 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: a log, and I know them, and I let him 340 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: in and out of the jail. I'm telling you that 341 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: there were so called sheriff's guards at the door of 342 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 1: his law office in Florida. I mean of his office 343 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: in Florida. The US attorney at the time, the top 344 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: federal prosecutor who then later became a member of Trump's cabinet, 345 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: was the one responsible for the sweetheart deal that he 346 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: was given, and that sent the message down the pipe. 347 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: There's very little a rank and file law enforcement officer 348 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: who can do other than throw your hands up or, 349 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: like the under sheriff did, walk away and quit. That's 350 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: what you can do. You can't. You know, we aren't 351 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: free to go and arrest people without the prosecutor's office. 352 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: You know that, Nancy, You were a prosecutor, so they 353 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: were Hey, right there, cut his mic. Don't tell me 354 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: what I know and what I don't know. You can 355 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: spout out anything you want, but don't put your thoughts 356 00:22:55,600 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: on me. Because these sheriffs knew that he was a pedophile, 357 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: Melissa Cronin, isn't it true that every day he had 358 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: to sign in and out of the jail and he 359 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: was chauffeured to his office and there would be deputies 360 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: guarding that office. There were people there to make sure 361 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: he got back in the car, and those people, those 362 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: so called guards, saw young girls going in and out 363 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: of his office all day. Nancy. Is that it is 364 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: one hundred percent true. And although we don't have the 365 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: logs from those visits, we do have the logs from 366 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: his commissary purchases when he was in prison, and those 367 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: logs show that Jeffrey Epstein, a middle aged man, was 368 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 1: purchasing women's size fives underwear which were described as quote 369 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: so small they wouldn't sit an average sized adult woman. 370 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: How could somebody see him making that purchase a pedophi 371 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: file and think that he was reformed or think that 372 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: he wasn't up to no good. Who can tell me 373 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: a reason that somebody would buy not? Yeah, tell me that, Bobby, 374 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: he telled me. Answer that. And you're saying they didn't facilitate, Oh, 375 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: yes they did. He was protected by the highest levels 376 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: of the Prosecutor's office in that district and the word 377 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: came down and there was I don't know what you 378 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: expect these people to do, other than walk away and 379 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: quit their jobs, which some of them clearly did. Yeah, 380 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: you're right, You're exactly right, James shell Nut, twenty seven 381 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: years Metro major case now lawyer, You darn right. I 382 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: expect a complaint when I see a crime happening. Yes, 383 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: that is what I expect from law enforcement, shell Nut. 384 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: And it's a heavy burden. But when you put one 385 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: hand on the Bible and you raise your hands and 386 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: you take the oath, the oath to seek justice, that 387 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: supersedes everything else shall not. I have never, ever, ever 388 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: seen this level of treatment given to a sex pedophile, 389 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: a person who is victimized children. I've never seen a 390 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 1: person like that escorted around, chauffeured around, given the royal treatment. 391 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: They're lucky to be alivee at the time of their 392 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: in jail. The inmates don't like them, the law enforcement 393 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: officers don't like them, and I'm just apalled by this. 394 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you something, just because somebody up above 395 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: you tells you to do something doesn't mean that you 396 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: lose your individual discretion as a law enforcement officer. You 397 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: do put your hand out there, and you do raise 398 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: your hand, and you do say that you're gonna follow 399 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: the laws, all lawful orders, all lawful directives that are 400 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: given to you. I believe that many of these directives 401 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: have given them were unlawful, were unethical. It should have 402 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 1: been reported. There's no indication that anybody tried to go 403 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: above and beyond the Shares Department to some outside agency, 404 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: to anywhere else to try to get some help. It's 405 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 1: just simply unacceptable. I don't buy it for two seconds. 406 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: It's not right, and it's disgusting, you know. Melissa Crone, 407 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: investigative journalist, co author Epstein dead mentel motels on Amazon. 408 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: There's always writing to the paper, making anonymous calls. There's 409 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: a million ways to seek justice. If you don't want 410 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: to lose your job and you want to do something, 411 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: send that letter, send an email from internet cafe, anything 412 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: to let it be known that young girls are being raped. 413 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: And they would walk right by the so called guards 414 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: into Epstein's office and back out a couple hours later, 415 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: day in, day out, and nobody did a thing. Melissa, No, 416 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: and Nancy, it just it really does disgust me, because 417 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: we have these people grown adults, you can say, you know, oh, 418 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: it was so hard for them to put themselves in 419 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: the position of telling the truth. They put so much 420 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: at risk. But you know what, thirty four young girls 421 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: under the age of eighteen came forward and spoke to 422 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: the police about what they had experienced. And these are 423 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: the women that actually were a rape. They actually did 424 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 1: have their lives ruined, but actually were in danger from 425 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: a predator and his powerful friends. They had enough balls 426 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: to come forward and talk to the police. So why 427 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: can't we expect that the people who are paid to 428 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: uphold the law, who are grown men most cases whose arms, 429 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: who are part of the law enforcement, why don't we 430 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: expect them to do their duty and actually say what's 431 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: going on and protect the people that they're supposed to protect. 432 00:27:52,080 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: It really just turns my Stuffach Time Stories with Nancy 433 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: Grace and here we are Epstein dead behind bars to 434 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: Bobby Chico and former FBI star Facebook watch series Curse 435 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: of Akacorps. It's my understanding that you actually know a 436 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: young man that committed suicide in the very same institution, 437 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: Correctional Institution MCC. What happened, Yeah, Nancy. I've been in 438 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: that facility many times in my career, and my office 439 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: and the FBI office was literally located across the street 440 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: from the MCC, and I had a young man cooperating 441 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: with me in a major drug investigation in nineteen nineteen 442 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: ninety one. We had just finished interviewing him at the 443 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: US Attorney's office. He was sent back to the MCC, 444 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: by the way, because he was cooperating. He was in 445 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: nine South, which is the Shoe, which is the special 446 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,719 Speaker 1: housing unit. He was not on the sidewatch, but he 447 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: was in the special housing unit to keep him safe 448 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: from other inmates, because you know, it gets very around, 449 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: very quickly that someone's cooperating. I got the call around 450 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: ten PM. I was still at my office because we 451 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: were in trial prep, and I literally walked across the 452 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: street and got there around the same time that EMS 453 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: the Emergency Medical Service New York City was arriving and 454 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: he was still hanging. The protocol was followed. They left 455 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: him in place until we got into the cell, and 456 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: we did a proper crime scene, because a suicide has 457 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: to be at first treated as a homicide, because if 458 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: you don't and you treat it as a suicide and 459 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: you cut people down or you move evidence, you can 460 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: never reclaim that evidence. You've lost it forever. And so 461 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: we treated as as as a crime scene. We did 462 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: all the photographs and the measurements and things, and you know, 463 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: he was obviously already dead when the guards found him. 464 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: There was no chance of reviving him. But protocol was followed. 465 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: And I have no idea why in this case, with 466 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: such a high profile prisoner, those same protocols weren't followed, 467 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: because if they had been, as doctor Joseph Morgan said earlier, 468 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: we would have that valuable information about how Epstein actually died. Okay, 469 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: so what about that? What do you make of that, 470 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,959 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan. It's like so many other times, Nancy, 471 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: anytime that someone of high profile dies, everybody absolutely loses 472 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: their mind and they ignore protocol. We've seen this over 473 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: and over and over again, going all the way back 474 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: to Kennedy, even talking about Justice Scalia when he died. 475 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: It's somehow these people are transported into another level and 476 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: you ignore what should be done, whereas if it's just 477 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: common every day Joe Blow, they're going to follow procedure, 478 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: and just like Bobby said in his particular case, they 479 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: were able to appreciate the scene in what's referred to 480 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: as a pristine condition. You know, once you walk across 481 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: that threshold, you can never walk across it again for 482 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: the first time. And so you treat everything like a homicide. 483 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: And now now we're left with this guy that's dead. 484 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: We have so many unanswered questions simply because people didn't 485 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: pay attention to what was there in front of them. 486 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: You treat every death as if it is a homicide. 487 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: Now these questions will be asked forever and ever and ever. 488 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: To Melissa crona investigative journalist co author Epstein Dead Men 489 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: Tell No Tells, and to doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst Beverly Hills, 490 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany, the two guards aren't talking. They have yet 491 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: to be investigated, and this is why federal prosecutors say. 492 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: Surveillance video makes clear the guards search the internet and 493 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: appeared to have been asleep. Both guards were working over time. 494 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: When you're being forced to stay over shifts, not go 495 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: home and see a family, you start to see people 496 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: tall shall cuts. Tyrone Covington is the president of the 497 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: union that represents the guards who both now faced criminal 498 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: charges and have pleaded not guilty. I absolutely believe that 499 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: these staff members of being made a scapegoal because it was. 500 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Covington doesn't think there was any foul play, and 501 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: he says there should be surveillance video to prove it. 502 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: In November, Attorney General William Barr told reporters he personally 503 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: reviewed surveillance video that showed nobody entered the area where 504 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: Epstein was held, But sources say a second camera inside 505 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: the tier, the one that could have seen Epstein's cell 506 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: door and the doors of other inmates, was not working 507 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: that night. That's CBS sixty minutes spaking. So doctor Bethany Marshall, 508 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: these two guards have a lot to say, but they 509 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: have yet to be interviewed, and their lawyers sided an 510 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: ongoing criminal investigation, so they basically have not even been 511 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: spoken to. We know, Nancy. Doctor Joe Scott Morgan took 512 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: the word right out of my mouth. When somebody is 513 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: high profile, people do lose their minds. Look at all 514 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: the law enforcements that stood by. They glamorized Epstein. They 515 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: didn't see that he was raping little girls in his office. 516 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: They saw a high profile sexy guy. And look at 517 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: the guards. They slacked while they were on the job. 518 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: Obviously they're tired, they may be overworked. They didn't take 519 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: their job seriously. But they broke protocol in many ways. 520 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: He was allowed to have all those medications on his 521 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: top bunk. There was all kinds of cloth and material 522 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: in his prison cell where he could what he could 523 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: use to hang himself. And then once he did suicide 524 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: or was the victim of homicide, they scrambled to cover up. 525 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: They broke protocol. They were afraid of getting into trouble, 526 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: so they did not do what they were supposed to do. 527 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: And I think the prison, the prison guards, the prison 528 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: system is trying to cover up for a squalid, poor 529 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: environment that did not safeguard their prisoner. I think it 530 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: may be much much more motivation than squalid conditions. Listen 531 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: to our friends at sixty minutes. This was a monumental 532 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 1: failure on all levels, and that's why it is fueled 533 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: to conspiracies. And I understand that Cameron Lindsay is a 534 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: former federal prison warden who should have made sure that 535 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: he wasn't taken off suicide watch. In your opinion, the 536 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: leadership of the facility should have stepped in and said, 537 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: while I appreciate the perspective of you, chief psychologist, I'm 538 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: going to override that decision and we're going to leave 539 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: Epstein on suicide watch. Especially subsequent to the suicide attempt 540 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: that he had. Epstein was moved back to the shoe 541 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: and assigned a new cell mate. Each tier of the 542 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: shoe has eight cells, usually with two in meats per cell. 543 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: Epstein Cell two twenty was about fifteen feet an up 544 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: a set of stairs from the guard station, with a 545 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: single locked gate between them. The gate is the only 546 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: way in or out of the tiers. They were fifteen 547 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: feet away and let him die. Melissa Cronan Bethany Marshall's 548 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: suggesting that they cover up is because they don't want 549 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: the squalid conditions at MC's safe come out. I think 550 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: it may be much more than that. The reason that 551 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,959 Speaker 1: Epstein ends up dead. It absolutely is. I mean, it's 552 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,800 Speaker 1: not just about rats or mice or bugs that Epstein 553 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 1: wrote about in a note that was found in his cell. 554 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: This shows just the highest level of corruption that's happening 555 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: inside law enforcement. The night that he died, there were 556 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: only eighteen workers guarding seven hundred and fifty people. So 557 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: if even that is the one thing that we know 558 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: to be true about that night, that's outrageous. That's point 559 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: zero two people guarding one prisoner in the cell, and 560 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 1: there should have been at least one, if not two, 561 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: people guarding someone like Eppstein, someone who has information and 562 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 1: secrets about one of the biggest criminal enterprises that we've 563 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: seen in our lifetime. There's something much more nefarious and bigger, 564 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: darker questions that we have to ask about our wider 565 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: criminal justice system and why something like this would be 566 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: able to happen right underneath their noses. If we know 567 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,799 Speaker 1: about this case and how horrible all the lapses were 568 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: with him, how many other people that are horrible criminals 569 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: are also at risk of further harming our society Fun 570 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. In Hours, we learned that a 571 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: billionaire businessman, Leslie Wexner, refuses to reveal the full scope 572 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: of pedophile Jeffrey Epstein's alleged multi million dollar theft. Okay now, 573 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: who is Wexner? He is the founder of el Brands 574 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: and just one of the things l Brands owns is 575 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: Victoria's secrets. Okay now, this guy. Leslie Wexner, the billionaire 576 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 1: founder of el Brands Empire, accused Epstein of stealing vast 577 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: sums millions of dollars of his personal fortune, and he 578 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: is refusing to reveal how many millions. We know it's 579 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 1: multi millions from him. So Wexer disclosed a forty six 580 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: million dollar donation from Epstein to a found dation run 581 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: by Wexner's wife, and that was just a portion of 582 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: their funds he recovered from Epstein. So forty six million 583 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: dollars is a portion of what was stolen. How much 584 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:24,839 Speaker 1: did Epstein allegedly still Melissa Cronin? This is huge. Not 585 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: only is he connecting the rich and powerful to underage girls. 586 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: We know Prince Andrew Welles swears he never met Virginia 587 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: Guthrie's and then there's a picture of him with his 588 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: arm around her like a deer in the headlights when 589 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: he's photographed. So that was a lie, and that was 590 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: at one of Epstein's quote parties. We know his condo, 591 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: his townhouse was blanketed and surveillance cameras where he would 592 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 1: have people over to have sex with young girls. We 593 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: know there's videos where they are I don't know that. 594 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: What do you think these millionaires would pay to get 595 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: their hands on videos of themselves with underage girls? Now, 596 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: I've got at least a forty six million dollar theft, Melissa, Now, Nancy, 597 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: the question isn't even what Epstein stole. The question is 598 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:24,240 Speaker 1: what he was given. Because sure Wexner is now saying, oh, 599 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 1: he took that money from me, But we know that 600 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: Wesner also gave Epstein a multimillion dollar mansion in the 601 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: heart of New York City at the time, one of 602 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,359 Speaker 1: the largest and most expensive residential properties in New York. 603 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: People just don't give their business managers multimillion dollar mansion 604 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: for no reason. And we also know that Epstein was 605 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: using his connection with Wexner to actively predate on women. 606 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, Wexner was the head of Victoria's Secret, 607 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: and Epstein actually told some women that he was a 608 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: scout for Victoria's Secret. I personally spoke to a woman 609 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: named Alicia Arden who was tricked into going to what 610 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: she believed was a Victorious Secret casting call, and when 611 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: she arrived, shocker, she was the only one there. Epstein 612 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: was the only one there, and his idea of a 613 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: casting call was trying to take off the clothes. She 614 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: filed a police report at the time, the very first 615 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: police report that was ever filed against him. And now 616 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 1: that obviously didn't result in his arrest at the time. 617 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: But that's just one example of how the connections and 618 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: the association that was given to Epstein by someone like 619 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: Wexner actually allowed him to continue his crimes. So now 620 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 1: people like Wexner are trying to distance themselves. They're probably 621 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: running scared because they don't know, Like you said, if 622 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: Epstein had video footage of But these men are not 623 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,280 Speaker 1: the victims. These men are not people that were stolen 624 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: from or trapped in a honeypot. They were, in a 625 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: lot of cases, active participants in a worldwide conspiracy of 626 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: evil and predation that ruined the lives of dozens and 627 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 1: maybe even hundreds of young women. Those are the women 628 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 1: that we know of here in the US, But it's 629 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: so much deeper than that. And I'm talking about whoever. 630 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: It was brought to Pedophile Island to James shell Nutt, 631 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: a former major case detective SWAT officer now lawyer. Girls 632 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 1: from all over and there are reports that he procured 633 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: young girls from London as well, were flown to this 634 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: island to be raped, not having any idea lurd like 635 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: Melissa Cronin was just describing for a talent audition or 636 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: as a masseuse for so many different reasons, and then 637 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,800 Speaker 1: they get there and they get raped. This island is 638 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: beyond our jurisdiction and it's going to be very difficult 639 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: to investigate what happened. There shall not yet that this 640 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: is going to wind up being if it's followed through 641 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 1: with correctly and the proper resources and time is dedicated 642 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: to it, it is going to be one of the 643 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:25,720 Speaker 1: largest worldwide human trafficking cases of our time. The scary 644 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: part to me is, yes, there will be more people 645 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: identified as victims. Yes, there'll be from other countries, other 646 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: parts of the world, But there are going to be 647 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 1: a lot of young girls, a lot of women now 648 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: who were young girls at the time, who are either 649 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: not going to want to come forward, who are not 650 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: going to be identified. You know, maybe if they've passed 651 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: away at this point, they'll never be known. The unknown 652 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,279 Speaker 1: victims in this case are one of the things that 653 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: also concerns well, it goes far beyond our jurisdiction. Listen, 654 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,800 Speaker 1: our ABC Lindsay Davis. The Jeffrey Epstein scandal is growing 655 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,720 Speaker 1: bombshell accusations point a Finger adds some rather notable names. 656 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: Two thousand pages of documents were unsealed in Manhattan Federal 657 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,240 Speaker 1: Court related to a defamation case brought by Virginia Roberts 658 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:12,320 Speaker 1: Goufrey against Geelan Maxwell and Epstein associate in court Finlings. 659 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: Gufrey says she became an underaged teen sex slave for Epstein, 660 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: who was later directed by Maxwell and Epstein to have 661 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: sex with many quote powerful men, including numerous prominent American politicians, 662 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: powerful business executives, foreign presidents, and other world leaders. Among 663 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: those Gufrey names in sworn depositions British Royalty Prince Andrew, 664 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,879 Speaker 1: former Governor and UN Ambassador Bill Richardson, and the influential 665 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: former Senator from Maine, George Mitchell. All three men have 666 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,400 Speaker 1: strongly denied the allegations and statements. Today, both Mitchell and 667 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: Richardson say they never met miss Guffray and these allegations 668 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: are false. Wow, so there are implications of rich and 669 00:43:53,520 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: powerful men that Epstein brokered young girls too, way way 670 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: beyond us boundaries. To Melissa Cronin, author Epstein dead Men 671 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 1: tell no tales. There are a million, maybe forty six 672 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:15,399 Speaker 1: million reasons someone would want Epstein dead. There absolutely are, 673 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 1: and that's the story that we covered in our book, 674 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 1: the fact that there are still so many more people 675 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: to be exposed, and still so many more secrets to 676 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: be revealed. There's, like you said, millions of reasons why 677 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: any number of people would have wanted to have him executed. 678 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 1: And it's not just in the US, like you were saying, 679 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 1: like we know the leaders of American business and politics 680 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: were connected to him. But what a lot of people 681 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: forget is there's actually an investigation right now that's undergoing 682 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: in France. The m I six in England are looking 683 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 1: into this. I've heard from sources that there are investigations 684 00:44:55,000 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: pending in Belgium. There's an investigation pending in Germany. There 685 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: are so many more people than we can even imagine 686 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 1: who are scared right now, who were scared when Epstein 687 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: was arrested, and the person that could have been behind 688 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: Epstein being killed, if he was killed, we might not 689 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: even know of that person yet. This might still be 690 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: someone whose connection to Epstein could still be revealed. Because 691 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,840 Speaker 1: there are hundreds and hundreds of powerful people all around 692 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: the world, not just in America, that were connected to 693 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,879 Speaker 1: what he was doing. And the one person that would 694 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: be able to reveal the answers to so many of 695 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 1: these questions is on the run, Gail and Maxwell. How 696 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 1: can that be? Bobbydecome a former FBI current star on 697 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:49,080 Speaker 1: Facebook watch series Curse of Acacorp. Do you really think 698 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,360 Speaker 1: am I six and others in France are on the 699 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: case and will they bring Gail and in or do 700 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: they think this is all just going to go away? Well, Nancy, 701 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: that's the big question. It's going to show how far 702 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 1: up the influence of these rich and powerful men go. 703 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,760 Speaker 1: We've already seen it with the mysterious death of Epstein 704 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,359 Speaker 1: and some other things. The FBI has raided Pedophile Island. Now, 705 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,239 Speaker 1: it took a while to get a search. Who aren't 706 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 1: on a foreign island, and so whether or not evidence 707 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 1: was removed before the FBI got there, I don't know, 708 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,920 Speaker 1: But certainly the FBI is working in concert with its 709 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: foreign partners in tracking this down. They are already made 710 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: request to possibly interview Prince Andrew there. I think there 711 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 1: is a coordinated law enforcement effort internationally. However, we have 712 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: seen in this case that rich and powerful men, that 713 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 1: whole positions of power have been able to influence the 714 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: directions of these investigations. I don't know how, and I 715 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 1: don't certainly don't agree with it, but this is going 716 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,279 Speaker 1: to test how many rich and powerful people around the world, 717 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,319 Speaker 1: and I think there are many. Epstein was just the 718 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 1: tip the very top of this. There are very many 719 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,759 Speaker 1: other people that need to face criminal charges. There are 720 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,919 Speaker 1: probably hundreds if not more victims internationally. And I think 721 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: that you know, this is going to be the test 722 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,799 Speaker 1: of this case. Is there a group of powerfully politically 723 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: powerful international men that are going to be able to 724 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,879 Speaker 1: stop this investigation? And um, and the only time will 725 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,439 Speaker 1: tell what about it? James shaw Nutt agree percent. This 726 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: is going to be broad. Is going to test the 727 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,359 Speaker 1: ability of law enforcement agencies to work together. Um, you're 728 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,360 Speaker 1: going to see agencies from all over the places. Was 729 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: stated earlier. I have to communicate, coordinate about these cases, 730 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,440 Speaker 1: coordinate resources. It's going to take a cooperative sharing of 731 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 1: investigative files. And I agree one hundred percent. This is 732 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:40,880 Speaker 1: going to be a major undertaking. It's going to go 733 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: in for a while, and the amount of people. The 734 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,480 Speaker 1: amount of people involved is going to be massive, and 735 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 1: there are people involved whose names have not even come 736 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,600 Speaker 1: out yet. Jess Scott, you know what, Nancy. You know. 737 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 1: Virginie Guthrie, in one of her statements, had actually mentioned 738 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: that she was present at this isle and at a 739 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: sex party. And I won't go into too much graphic detail, 740 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,920 Speaker 1: but what she stated was that in that period of time, 741 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,239 Speaker 1: at this particular party, there were many underage girls in 742 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 1: the same room with her. They were engaged in sexual behavior, 743 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,120 Speaker 1: and many of these girls could not speak English, and 744 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,200 Speaker 1: it sounded to her as though they may have been 745 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,320 Speaker 1: from Eastern Europe. I think that one of the things 746 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: that I'm curious about in all of this is that 747 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 1: where did these girls go? You know, he had the 748 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 1: ability to bring them in to this island allegedly, where 749 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: did they fly into There's gonna be flight logs, this 750 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and then where did they go after that? 751 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: Did they Were they just cut loose in the US 752 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 1: or were they flown back home? You know, I can't 753 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: walk in an airport now, Nancy, anywhere that I go. 754 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,919 Speaker 1: I fly with Atlanta a lot and other locations and 755 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,040 Speaker 1: everywhere we go. If you see something, say something. There's 756 00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:00,399 Speaker 1: signs about human trafficking everywhere. Interpol has beat the chest 757 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:05,400 Speaker 1: for years and years about this specific topic about human trafficking, 758 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,359 Speaker 1: sex trade, all the sort of thing. Let's see them 759 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,920 Speaker 1: put their money where their mouth is, move forward on 760 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 1: this case, track these individuals down, because yeah, there's things 761 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,400 Speaker 1: that we can't do about it in the United States. 762 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: But you've got all of these different countries involved. They 763 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: can reach out and they can begin to paint a 764 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,239 Speaker 1: picture and tie this thing together and we'll see if 765 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:31,279 Speaker 1: this moves the ball for You have a lot of 766 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 1: the flight logs, and you know a lot of the people, unfortunately, 767 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,719 Speaker 1: a lot of God all it in just like the 768 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,600 Speaker 1: tape from his suicide attempt, husband lost. I've seen the 769 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,960 Speaker 1: flight locks myself, and of course I've seen hunted pilots 770 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,000 Speaker 1: on his tail and Day didn't even put the names 771 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: of the people that were on these flights. There were 772 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:57,160 Speaker 1: countless flights where it says young woman, one young woman, 773 00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 1: two initials. So they deliberately hit the identity of these people. 774 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,239 Speaker 1: They deliberately did not leave a paper trill. And I 775 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,600 Speaker 1: also spoke to a man that was the head of 776 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,840 Speaker 1: the Santa Fe airport when Epstein was flying his private 777 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,960 Speaker 1: jet in there to go to his Zoro ranch compounds. 778 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,360 Speaker 1: And this man told me that he saw dozens of 779 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,880 Speaker 1: young girls coming in that they actively spoke among themselves 780 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,720 Speaker 1: about the fact that, hey, this looks like a human 781 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,640 Speaker 1: trafficking operation. So this man did tell the authorities, he 782 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,160 Speaker 1: did escalate the issue. Nothing came of it, and to 783 00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:38,800 Speaker 1: this day he still wonders what happened, wonders to shut 784 00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,200 Speaker 1: it down. So the evidence of what happened in the 785 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 1: past is not really there. All we can depend on 786 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,600 Speaker 1: is the knowledge of the people who were there. We 787 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 1: know who Epstein's pilots were. Why aren't they in custody 788 00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,799 Speaker 1: right now? We know who Epstein's madam was, Galen, Why 789 00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,880 Speaker 1: isn't she in custody right now? It's really just mine 790 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:04,719 Speaker 1: willing and disgusting that we're relying on these women, these 791 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,120 Speaker 1: traumatized women whose systems took you the ones to come 792 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,319 Speaker 1: forward and bring these men to justice. There were so 793 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,480 Speaker 1: many other people who knew what happened, and it falls 794 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,560 Speaker 1: upon the authorities around the world to do their jobs 795 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,799 Speaker 1: and find the information and not sit back and wait 796 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:27,840 Speaker 1: for these traumatized people to continue their fight for justice 797 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,960 Speaker 1: for decades. To finally bring people to account, other people 798 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,759 Speaker 1: have to do their jobs and find the evidence and 799 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,680 Speaker 1: find the witnesses, make them tell what they know, and 800 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,279 Speaker 1: finally figure out what happened with this case and how 801 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,879 Speaker 1: we can prevent it from happening again. We wait as 802 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,160 Speaker 1: justice unfolds, and do you Giellen Maxwell. You can run, 803 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:54,120 Speaker 1: but you can't hide. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off, 804 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:55,000 Speaker 1: good wise men,