Speaker 1: Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
Speaker 1: welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our
Speaker 1: mission is to foster allyship empathy and understanding. I'm your host, Rams' job.
Speaker 2: He is Rams' joh I am q Ward. You are
Speaker 2: listening to Civic Cipher DD.
Speaker 1: You are welcome back to the show. Que. I have
Speaker 1: missed you terribly.
Speaker 3: I'm tired. I'm about to change my zip code to
Speaker 3: thirty five thousand.
Speaker 1: Feet listen man. Obviously we've had a lot to talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, for those that were able to tune into
Speaker 1: last week's episode, we thought it was appropriate to give
Speaker 1: you a follow up to you know, the Israel Hamas
Speaker 1: war as it's being called, just to check in with
Speaker 1: some people that we know that are more familiar with
Speaker 1: the goings on than we are. And last week we
Speaker 1: had on Ammy Horwitz, who was able to say his piece.
Speaker 1: He's a person who very much sympathized us with Israel's plight.
Speaker 1: I've admitted that since gaining more information, my sympathies have
Speaker 1: shifted more in favor of the Palestinian human beings who
Speaker 1: are suffering daily. And one person who has helped us
Speaker 1: tell this story so far is Suzanne Oslam and she
Speaker 1: joins us again today, so welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you. And for those that don't know, she is
Speaker 1: a human rights major a former Miss arab USA. She
Speaker 1: is an actress as well as an activist turned writer
Speaker 1: and as an activist and a Palestinian American, she spent
Speaker 1: time in Palestine working with a peacekeeping team and has
Speaker 1: a deep personal understanding of the occupation. I implore you
Speaker 1: to follow her social media. I'll say it again, but
Speaker 1: I want to say it right now for those who
Speaker 1: are able to get to their devices. She is at
Speaker 1: the activist and I love that because I think it
Speaker 1: really does embody who she is and what she stands for. Now,
Speaker 1: before we get to that conversation, it's time to discuss
Speaker 1: some Ebony excellence. Q. How does that sound.
Speaker 2: I'm over here trying to go live and Rams wants
Speaker 2: to put me to work, so I guess I will
Speaker 2: go back to work.
Speaker 1: J we shall.
Speaker 2: This week's Ebny Excellence is brought to you by Actively Black.
Speaker 2: Visit actively black dot com, where the good people there
Speaker 2: believe that there's greatness in our DNA.
Speaker 1: We believe that too.
Speaker 2: This is from the World Food Program, WFP dot Org, Washington, DC,
Speaker 2: United Nations World Food Program, Good World Ambassador and Multiplatinum
Speaker 2: Global Recording Artists. The Weekend is directing two point five
Speaker 2: million dollars from his Exo Humanitarian Fund towards WFP's humanitarian
Speaker 2: response effort in Gaza. This donation, which equates to four
Speaker 2: million emergency meals, will fund eight hundred and twenty metric
Speaker 2: tons of food parcels that could feed more than one
Speaker 2: hundred seventy three thousand Palestinians for two weeks. The Weekend's
Speaker 2: contribution comes at a critical moment in WFP's response effort,
Speaker 2: as it racists to feed more than one million Gazans
Speaker 2: on the verge of starvation. Since the crisis begin on
Speaker 2: October seventh, WFPS provided food assistance to more than eight
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty six thousand Palestinians in coordination with other
Speaker 2: UN agencies in local and regional implementation partners. During the
Speaker 2: recent humanitarian pause and fighting, WFPS reached more than one
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty one thousand people, including and hard to
Speaker 2: reach areas previously inaccessible within Gaza. Food assistance has included
Speaker 2: fresh bread, fortified date bars, canned food, wheat flour, pasta,
Speaker 2: tomato paste, and oil. WFP continues to move as many
Speaker 2: trucks as possible full of food and aid into Gaza
Speaker 2: during the humanitarian pause. Somebody's doing something. Yeah, shout out,
Speaker 2: though we wish we could all do so much more.
Speaker 2: Shout out to the weekend. Yeah, man, that is a
Speaker 2: very special thing. And you know what, it feels like
Speaker 2: the right thing. It doesn't feel like me more than that,
Speaker 2: it's just the right thing to do. So have any
Speaker 2: excellence if I've ever seen it.
Speaker 1: Now, a lot of people had a lot to say
Speaker 1: about last week's episode, and you know, what we did
Speaker 1: was very much intentional. He is a person that comes
Speaker 1: onto the show and he shares his opinions, most of
Speaker 1: which we disagree with. But if we're not having conversations,
Speaker 1: we're not learning, we're not growing.
Speaker 2: So and we also cannot ever put ourselves in a
Speaker 2: position where our stance, our opinion, and our feelings are
Speaker 2: the only ones that matter. We've seen people try to
Speaker 2: do that to us, and we've sworn never to put
Speaker 2: ourselves in that position of moral or intellectual superiority where
Speaker 2: only what we think and feel is what we'll present.
Speaker 2: But there's a such thing as truth and that is
Speaker 2: very important to us as well.
Speaker 4: So, speaking of which our special guest is here today.
Speaker 4: You did hear I did the episode that we did
Speaker 4: last week with Amy Horwitz.
Speaker 1: And I know there was a few parts that may
Speaker 1: have stood out to you. Yes, I want to let
Speaker 1: you talk to us uninterrupted and give us your thoughts
Speaker 1: on the conversation that we had last week, and then
Speaker 1: we'll go from there in terms of additional questions. But
Speaker 1: you tell us what you heard that was right wrong,
Speaker 1: needs clarification, clarity, nuance, etc.
Speaker 5: Okay, listening to that was really difficult for me because
Speaker 5: I'm listening to a person who essentially was dehumanizing my
Speaker 5: entire people. And this is pretty normal. We've heard this
Speaker 5: our entire lives. One of the things that he said
Speaker 5: Israel feels a moral responsibility in terms of how it
Speaker 5: deals with that enemy. I have zero proof of this
Speaker 5: being true. There's nothing about what they do that's moral.
Speaker 5: The fact that they have to say we are the
Speaker 5: most moral army in the world. Who says that unless
Speaker 5: they're actually trying to combat the narrative The truth in
Speaker 5: that they are not the most moral army in the world.
Speaker 5: I have no proof that they've ever been a moral army.
Speaker 5: I have proof that they have not been a moral army.
Speaker 5: They have violated every single international law that exists. So
Speaker 5: it's you can't you can't just say things like that
Speaker 5: and expect that that to be it, for that to
Speaker 5: be enough without any evidence underneath it and all of
Speaker 5: the evidences to the contrary.
Speaker 1: I want to add something real quick. I'm not just
Speaker 1: throw you off, but there was a time when I
Speaker 1: did have a moment in that conversation where I asked
Speaker 1: him about the prevalence of videos that are being shown
Speaker 1: where there are Israeli soldiers dehumanizing these human beings and
Speaker 1: it's like funny, And I remember them pushing back, sort
Speaker 1: of saying something like, well, these are kind of like
Speaker 1: individual actors. And the point I think I was trying
Speaker 1: to make is that individual actors you might see six
Speaker 1: eight ten. When you see dozens and dozens and dozens
Speaker 1: and they're making videos, I think it gives you more
Speaker 1: insight into the mentality of this group of individuals. So
Speaker 1: I think that that kind of for those who may
Speaker 1: not be as familiar, I wanted you to know that
Speaker 1: that was where this part of the conversation comes from
Speaker 1: because last week I did ask on me about his
Speaker 1: feelings and the people that are very pro Israel their
Speaker 1: feelings about all of these videos coming up. And again
Speaker 1: his position was that these are individual actors, and I
Speaker 1: think our position is more like, well, after a while,
Speaker 1: you start to get a sense of the mentality in
Speaker 1: the army, because again, these are the people recording, meaning
Speaker 1: that this probably happens when the cameras aren't on as well.
Speaker 5: Right, It's really interesting that we would he would say, Oh,
Speaker 5: they're individual actors and they can't be held responsible for
Speaker 5: the entire army. Yet everybody in Gaza is he mass
Speaker 5: hm ooh, how does that work? That makes no sense.
Speaker 5: And he even said, and I'm jumping up a little bit,
Speaker 5: but he even said, when you were talking about the
Speaker 5: number of people who've died, he first of all, questions
Speaker 5: the numbers. Even though the Secretary of Defense in the
Speaker 5: United States of America has said it was twenty five
Speaker 5: thousand women and children. The Secretary of Defense, who is
Speaker 5: funding this genocide, gave that number.
Speaker 1: There's a lot more than just the Secretary of Defense
Speaker 1: of the United States of America. There was an article is.
Speaker 1: Funnily enough, after Amy and I recorded this is something
Speaker 1: that no one knows and you're learning this in real time.
Speaker 1: But after that article came out or sorry, after Ami
Speaker 1: and I recorded, there's an article came out, and I
Speaker 1: believe it was Time magazine that specifically said these numbers
Speaker 1: that are coming out of Gaza are real numbers. And
Speaker 1: then they had all of the sources that they listed,
Speaker 1: which many of the sources were indeed the sources that
Speaker 1: I used prior to going into that conversation with Amy,
Speaker 1: so as to eliminate that question of whether or not
Speaker 1: the numbers were valid. So to anybody that has an
Speaker 1: issue with the numbers, sorry, they're true. Yeah, So that's that,
Speaker 1: so please continue.
Speaker 5: So one of the other things that he said, and
Speaker 5: this one man cute in my blood boil, he brought
Speaker 5: up Goldemeir in Goldimeir is a She was the fourth
Speaker 5: Prime Minister of Israel. Originally, her citizenship said Palestine. There's
Speaker 5: a video of her saying I'm Palestinian, my citizenship says Palestine.
Speaker 5: But eventually she became the Prime Minister of Israel. This
Speaker 5: is her quote that he kind of loosely said, when
Speaker 5: p comes, we will perhaps in time be able to
Speaker 5: forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will
Speaker 5: be harder for us to forgive them for having forced
Speaker 5: us to kill their sons. That is gaslighting. That is
Speaker 5: international gas lighting. That is when a woman is sexually
Speaker 5: assaulted and we all go, yeah, but what were you wearing?
Speaker 5: It was your fault? Why were you in a dark alley?
Speaker 5: Why were you like? Why were you It's your victim
Speaker 5: blaming and the fact that he was using that is
Speaker 5: like this profound thing, like you forced us to do
Speaker 5: this thing, and we're just so distraught about it as
Speaker 5: we keep doing it happily. Is It's just so asinine
Speaker 5: and in no other context, in any other part of
Speaker 5: the world would this type of dialogue be acceptable. And
Speaker 5: I don't understand why it's acceptable when we talk about
Speaker 5: the Palestinians this way.
Speaker 1: I want to add something here too. I know I
Speaker 1: want you to talk, but there's I think these things
Speaker 1: require content. First Off, thank you for adding that, because
Speaker 1: I was not able to really heed the gravity of
Speaker 1: that statement until this very moment. Right. The other thing,
Speaker 1: and this is something that Amy and I were able
Speaker 1: to talk about kind of after the show, and again
Speaker 1: for the benefit of our listeners. There is a question
Speaker 1: of you know, that distance that you put between the
Speaker 1: actions on the ground. So this is just a part
Speaker 1: of war. This is just how these things go. They
Speaker 1: made us do it, you know, to your point, And
Speaker 1: as soon as you flip that narrative over and you say, well, okay,
Speaker 1: So let's imagine if we're living in a world in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four where there are people
Speaker 1: picking body parts of little babies out of rubble, and
Speaker 1: their Jewish babies, how does how do so come up
Speaker 1: with the worst possible justification, the best possible justification for
Speaker 1: it is it's still a conscionable thing. Is it unconscionable
Speaker 1: to you to live in the world where there are
Speaker 1: people picking out body parts of children that could not
Speaker 1: vote in an election, because that's another big one, right
Speaker 1: out of a pile of rubble? Could you live in
Speaker 1: a Is there any justification for that? Period? Full stop? Right?
Speaker 1: And that's where that conversation breaks down. So I appreciate
Speaker 1: you making that point, and I will stop there. Please continue.
Speaker 5: Like what people failed often to understand or or don't
Speaker 5: like to talk about, is when she said Goldimir, which
Speaker 5: Amy used this quote, it's so hard for us to
Speaker 5: forgive those that force us to kill their sons. We
Speaker 5: didn't force you to kill us. What are you talking about.
Speaker 5: You came onto our land, you took it violently, and
Speaker 5: then you got mad when we fought back. How is that?
Speaker 5: It's just it's I mean, you're talking to a person
Speaker 5: where like their reality is so different than what we're
Speaker 5: actually experiencing that those conversations are really hard. It's why
Speaker 5: I didn't want to come here and talk to Amy
Speaker 5: in person, because our realities are so so different, and
Speaker 5: he needs to live in that reality and I live
Speaker 5: in the reality that I've actually seen where my family,
Speaker 5: my mom benefited from the World Food Program as a
Speaker 5: baby because they didn't have the means because Israel is
Speaker 5: occupying them and committing ethnic cleansing and apartheid. They don't
Speaker 5: have the opportunities to go out and provide for their families.
Speaker 5: And yet it's somehow our fault that you killed our babies.
Speaker 5: Right now, there's a guy named I think it's Aimen,
Speaker 5: I can't remember Amen Levy. He's the spokesperson for the
Speaker 5: State of Israel. He's young, he's good looking, he has
Speaker 5: a British accent, I think if I remember correctly, And
Speaker 5: he sits there and he goes like, we will never
Speaker 5: forgive you for making us do this. Look what you
Speaker 5: made us do, And what a narrative that is. You
Speaker 5: made us kill thirty thousand people.
Speaker 2: You made us kill thirty thousand of your people. We
Speaker 2: will never forgive you for it?
Speaker 5: Right, wow, this is what this is the narrative that
Speaker 5: they've been saying since the fourth Prime Minister of Israel.
Speaker 1: Again, the gravity it hits different that in a conversation
Speaker 1: with Ami, that's just kind of a passing comment, but
Speaker 1: you know, to kind of hear it now. It's how
Speaker 1: it's been used to suggest that this whole thing is
Speaker 1: somehow the fault of people suffering.
Speaker 5: And they are the victims, like Israel is the victim constantly,
Speaker 5: and somehow they're the victim and the hero at the
Speaker 5: exact same time. And it's just the most amazing publicity
Speaker 5: stunt that you're ever going to see in your lifetime.
Speaker 1: So, speaking of which, let's if you've reached a good
Speaker 1: stopping point. I'm going a stopping point, So talk to
Speaker 1: me a bit about what it might have felt like
Speaker 1: for you personally, for your family, for your people. You
Speaker 1: know that you know, with your activism and the apertures
Speaker 1: you have into kind of the temperament of the Palestinian people.
Speaker 1: How has it felt to know that there is increased
Speaker 1: support and to see the numbers and the data that
Speaker 1: the support has shifted away from Israel in favor of Palestine.
Speaker 5: It's incredibly emotional. There's one part of me. I have
Speaker 5: so many feelings. There's one part of me that is like,
Speaker 5: where have you guys been this entire time? Like we
Speaker 5: didn't just start talking about the six months ago. We've
Speaker 5: been talking about this. In fact, when after October seventh happened,
Speaker 5: people are reaching out to me because they're like, wait
Speaker 5: a minute, this sounds familiar. Haven't you been talking about this?
Speaker 5: And I was like yeah, yeah. So there's a part
Speaker 5: of me that's kind of angry because we weren't believed
Speaker 5: and heard. And there's another part of me that's like, look,
Speaker 5: I don't really it doesn't matter, Like I don't care
Speaker 5: how we got here in a care but I mean,
Speaker 5: we're here now and I'm so grateful for the support.
Speaker 5: And there are people that are like obsessing day and night,
Speaker 5: crying over these little kids who they have no connection to,
Speaker 5: and it's been really heartwarming. How and oftentimes they're the
Speaker 5: ones leading the charge and they're the ones going on protests.
Speaker 5: It's been really, really beautiful. And there's something about Palestine,
Speaker 5: and I think I said this on the last show
Speaker 5: I was on here that is spiritually and energetically powerful
Speaker 5: that has brought people to a new level of consciousness
Speaker 5: and awareness. And there's this awakening that is happening, particularly
Speaker 5: among young people, which is why they want to ban TikTok.
Speaker 5: People think it's about China. It is not about China.
Speaker 5: It's a great cover. It's a great cover because we
Speaker 5: love China as an enemy. It's not it's about the fact.
Speaker 5: And they've said this. It's so weird because sometimes they're
Speaker 5: really savvy as really politicians, and sometimes they're just really
Speaker 5: blunt and honest. And they have gone on record saying
Speaker 5: that the narrative has shifted and they're trying to control it.
Speaker 1: That's from the ADEO, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And that's true of politicians in general. We've seen a
Speaker 3: shift change where they no longer feel the need to
Speaker 3: be savvy. They can be blunt and say these things
Speaker 3: that would have been frowned upon before, because they see
Speaker 3: that there's a sentiment in their base right where those
Speaker 3: things aren't frowned upon anymore. So they don't feel the
Speaker 3: need to disguise them and use colorful language. They say
Speaker 3: what they feel with their chest now because they're followers
Speaker 3: as I call them, and their base they stand with
Speaker 3: them in unison and their beliefs, So they don't they
Speaker 3: feel they have the power to actually say what they
Speaker 3: mean now, so they don't get as savvy.
Speaker 1: Or as right.
Speaker 3: It's true, they don't do the intellectual gymnastics that they use.
Speaker 5: They're not doing the whole diplomatic thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: One of the things Amy said is and if this
Speaker 5: is not a perfect quote, it kills us that there
Speaker 5: are these children, civilians and innocent civilians that are dying. No,
Speaker 5: it doesn't, No, it doesn't because Israeli politicians are on record,
Speaker 5: on record in public without any shame or any like.
Speaker 5: They're not saying this, you know, hidden, It's not like
Speaker 5: a hot mic. They're just going out and saying there
Speaker 5: are no innocent people in Gaza, there are no innocent
Speaker 5: children in Gaza. They want to resettle Gaza. They're they're
Speaker 5: being very open with their genocidal intents. Let's let's believe them.
Speaker 1: There's there's something else there too. When when they talk
Speaker 1: about what they're doing amongst themselves or when it comes
Speaker 1: from there, it doesn't seem like there's a problem. But
Speaker 1: when you know, we're a media outlet, we're a media organization,
Speaker 1: when media organizations, because we watch this all right, when
Speaker 1: media organizations push back and it's a problem here. Let
Speaker 1: me let me into picture a little bit better for you.
Speaker 1: There's a statement that we were told early on is
Speaker 1: anti semitic. In that statement is you know, from the
Speaker 1: river to the sea. If not on that, yeah, So
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your thoughts. Let me take the
Speaker 1: picture for the listeners right quick. From the river to
Speaker 1: the sea, that's an anti Semitic statement. So I was
Speaker 1: talking to Amy, I've talked to other Jewish people, not
Speaker 1: Jewish people, Jewish people. I'm talking pro Palestinian people that
Speaker 1: have a fundamentally different opinion.
Speaker 2: I think that's what you meant, Pro israel people, That's
Speaker 2: what I meant.
Speaker 1: Sorry about that, now I'm confusing everybody. Okay, pro Israeli folks, Okay.
Speaker 1: So I'm told that is an anti Semitic statement. Don't
Speaker 1: don't make that statement, Okay, no problem, no problem. I
Speaker 1: love Jewish people. If that hurts you, even if it
Speaker 1: just hurts you, I'm never gonna argue whether or not
Speaker 1: it's valid or whatever. If it hurts your feelings, then
Speaker 1: I don't need to say it. I can get my
Speaker 1: point across. I have enough words in my brain. Will
Speaker 1: be fine, so I don't say it. I go to protest,
Speaker 1: you know, a free Gaza ro Palaesig protest, you know
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, and they have all the chants, right,
Speaker 1: and I say all the chances, and when they say
Speaker 1: from the River to the Sea, I don't say that
Speaker 1: part because even though there's no Jewish people that I
Speaker 1: know that can hear me, this is the commitment that
Speaker 1: I've made. And I see the Prime Minister or the whatever,
Speaker 1: that guy's.
Speaker 5: What's the name bibe Benjamin and yahoo mm hm prime
Speaker 5: Minister of Israel.
Speaker 1: And then he says it on the news.
Speaker 5: Yes he does.
Speaker 1: And then I've told it to Amy and Amy's like,
Speaker 1: I never never, He doesn't know about that. Remember, he's well,
Speaker 1: if you if it's been a while since you have
Speaker 1: heard the episode he did, he was like, no, I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Can you send me the video
Speaker 1: of it? So I sent him the video of it.
Speaker 1: But by then, of course we weren't recording anymore.
Speaker 5: But so not only did did Bibe is the nickname
Speaker 5: that they give Benjamin and Yahoo. So not only did
Speaker 5: BB say that, but the Likud Party, which is the
Speaker 5: political party that BB is under, you know, they're like
Speaker 5: Republican party. In nineteen seventy nine, in their party charter
Speaker 5: whatever it's called, they wrote, the right of the Jewish
Speaker 5: people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable.
Speaker 5: And then they say some things, and then between the
Speaker 5: sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
Speaker 5: Now they're saying only Israeli sovereignty. All we're saying is
Speaker 5: we want freedom. But they initiated this quote. We just
Speaker 5: took it and we spun it to say we want
Speaker 5: freedom from those same locations, from the river to the sea.
Speaker 5: That's their invention nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I'm increasingly coming to appreciate
Speaker 1: is that there are a lot of things, a lot
Speaker 1: of similarities between certainly black Americans, But I think black
Speaker 1: people and house in people. And I've kind of known
Speaker 1: this for some months now, but the more I hear
Speaker 1: stories like this from you and from our other friend,
Speaker 1: Resistance is beautiful. Couldn't make it today, but you know,
Speaker 1: God bless him, My hope he's flourishing.
Speaker 5: Whatever he's he's doing a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's doing the most. Shout out to him. But
Speaker 1: what I'm seeing is that there's a lot of similarities.
Speaker 1: What you mentioned is like, you know, black people were
Speaker 1: kind of famous for taking negative things and spinning it,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, turning it into a good thing. Not
Speaker 1: a good thing, but into our own thing. And so
Speaker 1: you know what what I want to do is I
Speaker 1: want to talk more about that, and I do want
Speaker 1: to talk more with you about last week's conversation just
Speaker 1: because having a response to it, I think that it
Speaker 1: helps our listeners really understand what it might feel like
Speaker 1: to be in your shoes and more importantly, how to support.
Speaker 1: And so that's where gonna go next.