WEBVTT - 'Forever Chemicals' Here to Stay, Despite Alternatives 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.160 They said it couldn't be done, but now it may 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:05.680 finally be happening, a viable replacement for p fast laden 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.000 firefighting foam. On today's podcast, we talked about this potential 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.880 breakthrough in the fight against P fast contamination and why 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.120 it might not actually be that big of a breakthrough 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:24.320 after all. Hello, and welcome back once again to partsiper Billion, 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.480 the environmental podcast from Bloomberg Law. I'm your host, David Schultz. 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:29.800 So you could sort of say that P fast is 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.560 a victim of its own success. The so called forever chemicals, 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:36.040 named as such because they're so resistant to breaking down 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:39.560 the environment, are really really good at what they do, 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:41.440 and they do a lot of things, but one of 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.960 the things they do best is putting out fires. The 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:46.400 military has been using sprayable phone lace with p fast 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.000 to do exactly this since the Vietnam War era, and 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.240 so have airports and other places that work with highly 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.640 flammable materials. The problem, of course, is that, as we 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.040 now know, P fast chemicals are really bad for your health, 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.240 and estated earlier, they're really hard to get rid of. 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.399 But now we may finally have other firefighting tools that 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:06.880 work just as well as P FAST but aren't P fast. 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.280 Liberal reporters Pat Rizzutto and Andrew Wallander just wrote a 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.880 story about whether this means the military and other entities 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.040 can start phasing app fast foam. As it turns out, 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:19.119 doing that is going to be really, really hard. Here's 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:21.720 my conversation with them. One of the reasons why I 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:23.160 wanted to bring you guys on is you just did 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.039 a story about, you know, replacements for P fast in 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:29.440 firefighting foam. For the longest time, I was under the 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:35.400 impression that it was impossible to replace because it's so effective. Um, 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.000 but it sounds like that maybe changing. What's what's going 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.080 on with that, Is it possible now to have a 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:44.600 P fast replacement that just as good as P fast. Well, 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:50.720 d D and the researchers it's funded have been evaluating 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:55.080 dozens of products. Some of those products are actually used 0:01:55.800 --> 0:02:00.200 abroad at airports, but the challenge has been the at 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.560 they have more limited uses where you know, an airport 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:10.399 is mostly dealing with jet fuel. The military needs firefighting 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.720 tools that can put out something with propane, something with gasoline, 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.440 something with who knows how many chemicals, something that works 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.720 with freshwater, something that works with saltwater. I mean, the 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.839 conditions under which the military fights are so much broader 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:28.400 than an airport that it really has You know, it's 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:31.360 taken a lot of hard work to try and find 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:35.840 one or perhaps more alternatives. As a layperson, I would 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:37.720 think something that can put out jet fuel could probably 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.080 put out anything. But it's sounds like that's not the 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:44.560 case at all. You need some specialized stuff, apparently from 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:48.280 people much smarter than I. I'm told they don't and 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:51.920 that some of the problems with some of the substitutes 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.920 that have worked abroad is that they don't work for 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:58.800 the full range of stuff that can burn. And that's 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.240 really really dangerous because it flows like a river as 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:06.720 it burns. Yeah, that's frightening. Um, So give me a 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:11.880 sense of how quickly the regulations around this are changing. 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.440 You guys did a story about you know, d O 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:16.640 D is doing its own thing, The FAA is doing 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:21.800 it's things, States are doing their thing. Um, what what's 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.560 happening here? Who are is this a coordinated effort or 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:28.720 are they all on separate, parallel tracks. Well, I'm going 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.079 to start just by saying that it's what's called equist 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:38.040 film forming foam, A for people who don't want obnoxious 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:40.880 names um. And that's the type of foam that until 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:45.800 now and still today uses various forms of p FAST. Right, So, 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.280 we've got at least two dozen states so far that 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:53.960 have put out legislation of some kind past legislation restricting 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.200 the use of this type of foam in some way. 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.520 It's been one of the most active areas of p 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:02.560 FAST enforcement that states have been involved in, and but 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.560 it varies widely for how states have been looking at this. 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:07.600 So a lot of a lot of those states they 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:11.000 will just restrict the use of that foam in training 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:15.440 and testing exercises. Well, some states have gone so far 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.599 as to ban full use of the foam and or 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:24.039 banned manufacturer manufactured distribution. There's a lot of exceptions for 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.560 emergencies as well. So even even though these states are 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:32.240 are putting the brakes on selling this foam and buying it, 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.479 the phone that's still out there, a lot of a 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.480 lot of fire companies, organizations, airports, that sort of thing 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.440 will still be able to use it for the foreseeable future. 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:45.159 Well that's really interesting because I would imagine in a 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:49.760 situation where the foam is banned outright Uh, then you 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.360 can get to the to the you know, very laborious 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:53.840 process of getting rid of it, which will get to 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:56.400 you in a second. But in a situation where it's 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:01.760 allowed only in emergencies, you can actually you know, keep around, right, Um, 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.120 can you tell me a little bit about that. How 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:05.520 do you if you if you keep it around, you 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:06.839 have to store it, you have to make sure it 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:10.120 doesn't you know, get out into the environment, right right, Yeah, absolutely, 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.560 And so a lot of fire departments are making a 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:16.120 lot more effort to train their their firefighters and how 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.120 to actually use this foam and when to use it, 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.960 and trying to be very uh use it very sparingly. 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.440 And I know that the government's on that as well, 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:26.679 telling you know, airports not to use this foam unless 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.920 it's absolutely necessary for an emergency, and trying to really 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.080 restrict the use of it because a lot of a 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.760 lot of the contamination and pollution that we've seen from 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.320 from fast foam has been from these training exercises where 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:42.640 they've just been using it, uh way too often. From 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.080 what we know now what the science is telling Andrew 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:49.120 just nailed it. It's actually not the use to control 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.520 the hazardous fires that were really worried about. That's been 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:56.039 the problem with the A triple left. It was the 0:05:56.160 --> 0:06:01.000 you know, daily training, you know, for years, for decades 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:06.080 that just was pouring it into the environment. UM. Really 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.880 since the end of the Vietnam War. Now you know, 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:12.640 in some cases, as you mentioned, it's it's being phased 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:16.760 out completely. In some cases it's being phased out mostly UM. 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:18.479 But one of the things that you wrote about in 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.640 your story that I is now obvious, but it wasn't 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:23.839 obvious to me before I read it, was that it's 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:25.680 really hard to get rid of. You can't just throw 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:27.720 it away, you can't just take it to a landfill. 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.839 How do you get rid of aqueous film forming foam 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:37.200 atriple leaf um, you know, safely without causing its own 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:41.040 environmental hazards. So it seems and impact correct me if 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.760 I'm wrong, but it seems there's two main ways that 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.560 fire departments are going about disposing of the of the 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.159 foam and the first sister incineration, burning the foam at 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.400 very high temperatures where it can break apart some of 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:57.799 these these molecules, and then the other is to basically 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:02.800 put it in the ground to bury it. And UM. 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:06.720 You mean like deep well well on the ground, right, UM, 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.239 so truck it off to some facility that that has 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.200 the ability to to do that. So either burning it 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:31.200 or burying it is the two main ways. Just to 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:37.880 elaborate on how challenging this waste problem is. UM. What 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:44.000 makes p fast really wonderful for products is that they 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:49.840 the chemicals last so long. Now, if you've got UM 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:54.200 wires and cables that are coated with the chemicals in 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:58.920 your office sailing, which we probably do to reduce the 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.600 chance of fires, that's really great because you want those 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.720 wires and cables to be resistant to fires for many, 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:10.560 many years. But the downside is when you're trying to 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:15.360 get it rid of it, it's really stubborn. It likes 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:17.960 to hide in the nooks and the crannies of the 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.600 pipes and the other equipment that you know shoot out 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:27.320 the foam. So what that means is that as fire departments, 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:35.439 oil rigs, oil refineries, chemical manufacturers, airports and anybody else 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.200 who's using it D O D, they're going to have 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:43.600 to clean out aircraft hangars that use that A triple left, 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.600 they're going to have to clean out lots of fire 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:51.839 trucks and other equipments that's had it, and maybe even 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.480 trucks um that will have to be gotten rid of 0:08:55.720 --> 0:09:00.640 whole entire trucks. Some it's entirely possible, according to some 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.480 of those folks that I spoke to, that it could 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:07.240 be more cost effective to just buy a new truck, 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:11.560 even if that's costing in the six digits then to 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.040 clean it all out, or if it's a marginal difference, 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:17.480 maybe you want a new truck that has some new 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:21.640 cool features. And one of the challenges that folks are 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:29.240 facing is win in January, d D announces the new 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.600 requirements for these new phones. Then it's going to take 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.880 a couple of months to certify and say these are 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:40.520 the phones that actually work for the military. What if 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.120 there aren't a lot of those, and the military, with 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:47.079 all its vast purchasing power, buys up all the new phones, 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.200 right Well, that's actually what I wanted to get into, 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:52.760 is that it's one thing for the military to make 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.200 a new rule or new regulation that applies to itself. 0:09:56.240 --> 0:10:00.760 It's another thing for civilian aviation for the FAA to 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.040 make new rules, and then it's an entirely other thing 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.520 for the states for fifty different states to have different rules. 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:13.120 Are we concerned that there will be not totally compliance here, 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.679 that some of these airports or other people who use 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:22.080 or other firefighting entities might just say, Hey, you know, 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:26.520 we'd like to replace this atribal left, but we just can't. Sorry, 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:31.559 we'll just pay a fine. Airports are among the folks 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.559 who are concerned, Well, the military could buy up all 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.319 the available supply, so then what are we going to do. 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:43.520 They're also concerned about, you know, getting enough just to 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.560 to the general global supply chain problems. And they're also 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:51.880 concerned about not having enough experts who know how to 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:56.720 clean out the equipment, not having enough equipment to clean 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:01.040 out the equipment. There's a real desire for are coordinated 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:04.680 national strategy here. Andrew. I want to hear from you 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:09.000 because you know, as we all know, you know, it's 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:10.880 one thing to make a rule, it's another thing to 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:15.120 ensure compliance with that rule. Did the states have a 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:19.640 um plan for making sure that their new regulations are 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.679 complied with or is it just they're saying phase out 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.760 p fasts and not really following up. Yes, it's it's 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:27.880 been interesting to see a lot of states have actually 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:33.280 pushed some of the UH notification UH part of the 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.880 compliance at least letting people know that this is these 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.880 laws are out there to some of the manufacturers and saying, 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:43.200 if you've sold these types of p fasts foams to people, 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.679 it's your responsibility for the law to actually notify them 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:48.600 that the laws changing, they're not going to be able 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:50.400 to use it or not gonna be able to buy 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:54.000 it from you anymore, which is interesting actually, right right 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:55.640 and then and then there's also a lot of a 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:57.880 lot of card be outs in these laws. So even 0:11:57.880 --> 0:11:59.959 though we're seeing a lot of change going on now, 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.560 some of these carve outs in the laws, we're going 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.600 to be seeing p fast foam sticking around till at 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:10.079 least the lateies, early twenty thirties, based on how long 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.680 some of these windows are for the states UM. And 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:14.319 then one of the things that's interesting to note in 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.800 the state level two is UM Connecticut, they actually came 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:22.400 out with a particular foam for people to buy, saying 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:26.040 that this is we've done our research, UH, this foam 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.920 meets our specifications. Are public agencies are going to buy 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:34.520 this fast free phone uh and putting it out there 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.080 that others So they didn't just say, you know, phase 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.200 out p fast film. They said, phase out p fast foam. 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.400 That by doing this, by buying this other they said, 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:47.480 this one's approved for for state agencies to use, and UH, 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:51.480 we've done the research and there's now alternatives that meet 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:55.280 our needs. Finally, I wanted to get back to something 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.560 that Pat alluded to earlier, that you know, P fast 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:00.640 has a lot of uses. You know, for obvious, firefighting 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.080 phone is what we're talking about now, but also you 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.439 know it's it's used throughout the economy and in in a 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:08.839 lot of different ways. But it sounds like the one 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:10.840 of the main ways that p fast gets into the 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.400 environment is through the spraying of this phone, because when 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:17.560 you're spraying the foam, obviously it's going everywhere. It's meant 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:21.160 to get down to the environment. If we actually do 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.920 succeed in phasing out p fast in firefighting foam, will 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.240 that be kind of will we get almost all the 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.160 way towards solving the P fast problem? Will that be 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:38.640 victory over P fast day UM? I would not characterize 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:44.559 it that way at all. If UM, if the government, 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:50.840 federal and state, UH and private sector are successful in 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:56.240 finding alternatives to a triple F that will be a 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.840 major step forward. They've already taken steps by not you 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.559 using a triple left for training, and by the military 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:07.040 doesn't use it for training. F A A discourages its 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:12.000 use except in emergencies. UM fire departments aren't using it 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.559 for training. I'm told I'm they used water UM. So 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.960 they've already been some major steps to reduce its use 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:24.760 for the firefighting foam. UM. Having alternatives will help mean 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.440 that no more a trip left which has p FAST 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.800 is being put into the environment, So it'll be a help, 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.720 But it doesn't do anything about the p FST that's 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:38.240 already out there. Since you know, we're talking especially with 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.680 the older forms of a triple left, we're talking about 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:48.120 real well known forever chemicals UM. And it doesn't stop 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:52.320 the other sources of p FS in the environment. UM. 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:56.040 Landfills are a major source because of all the products 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.000 that are coated with the chemicals that then go into 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:02.880 land fills and then over time the leach it happens. So, 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:08.000 you know, does this address a major source? Yes? Does 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:13.000 it solve everything? No? And UM. A major concern that 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:19.240 I heard was do we know enough about the alternatives? 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:23.880 Will they be safe or will there be shortcuts in 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.320 the rush to get alternatives that there won't be enough 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.440 testing and we'll have another problem, you know, a couple 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.280 of decades from now. Yeah, because as you know very well, 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.480 I mean, there's a long history of you know, industry 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:39.920 creating an alternative to a harmful substance and then that 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.800 alternative also turns out to be harmful itself, otherwise known 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.920 as whack a mole. Exactly what do you think? I mean? 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.280 Do you think it sounds like, based on what Pat 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.880 is saying, that taking p fast out of firefighting foam 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.640 would help make the problem not get worse or at 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:01.440 least not get worse as quickly, but it wouldn't solve 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.360 the problem at all. Yeah. No, I I agree with that. 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.320 I think that it's it's a huge step and and 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:09.440 cuts off a major source of some of the p 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:11.880 fast pollution. But like Pat said, a lot of the 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.080 damage is already done. There's a lot of uh places 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:17.360 in the environment that already have a lot of p 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:21.440 fast contamination in the groundwater from decades and decades of 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:24.360 using these phones, and um, you know, there's there's still 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:29.000 gonna be p fast applications in other consumer products and 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:31.160 so there's still going to be a need to manufacture 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.400 uh P fast, and so there's always you know, potential 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.040 from contamination from some of those sites that are manufacturing 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:41.680 the P fast and uh and and landfills and and 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.760 and other sources. All right, well that was Andrew Wallander 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.520 and pat Rizzuto talking about P fast. Thank you guys 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:52.800 so much, And that's it for today's episode of Parts 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.000 for Billion. If you want more environmental news, check us 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.160 out on Twitter. We use the handle at environment just 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.360 that environment nothing else. I'm at David B. Schultz if 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.200 you want to chat with me about anything. Today's episode 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.760 of Partner Really is produced by myself, David Joels special 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.440 help from Monet Schuff. Partner Billion was created by Jessica 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.040 Combs and Rachel Dagle and is edited by Zach Sherwood 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.680 and Chuck McCutcheon. Our executive producer is Josh Block. Thanks 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:21.480 everyone for listening. Have you ever thought to yourself, how 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.959 is that legal? Why is that legal? Have you ever 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.600 seen a big trial in the news and wondered what's 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:31.120 really happening there? 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