Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Nolan Wells investigation into
Speaker 1: the death of a Shining Star Nolan Wells has an altercation.
Speaker 1: Witness emerged a witness that claims she saw an altercation
Speaker 1: at Horn Island good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1: A Nolan Wells phone evidence torpedo.
Speaker 2: Two confirmed witnesses that saw Nolan Wells on the island
Speaker 2: around six pm. The triton, as you said, left around
Speaker 2: four thirty.
Speaker 1: What witnesses where?
Speaker 3: Who?
Speaker 1: What, where, why and when?
Speaker 4: I have not spoken publicly about this before, but I
Speaker 4: witnessed an altercation involving Nolan Wells from a boat nearby.
Speaker 4: What I saw has stayed with me, and I believe
Speaker 4: it's important information. I have provided or intend to provide
Speaker 4: my account to the appropriate investigators because Nolan's family deserves
Speaker 4: the truth. Out of respect for the ongoing investigation, I
Speaker 4: won't speculate beyond what I personally observed. While I was
Speaker 4: on the boat near the area, I witnessed an altercation
Speaker 4: involving Nolan Wells and several other individuals. I saw what
Speaker 4: appeared to be an argument that escalated after there was
Speaker 4: a dispute involving Nolan's phone. I heard Nolan yelling for
Speaker 4: his phone to be returned. The argument continued after the
Speaker 4: group reached Sore and I observed a physical fight involving
Speaker 4: Nolan and multiple people. I also observed a young woman
Speaker 4: telling them to stop. At that point, I left the
Speaker 4: area because the situation had appeared to be getting worse.
Speaker 4: I did not remain long enough to witness what happened afterward.
Speaker 4: Everything beyond what I personally observed would be speculation, so
Speaker 4: I cannot honestly say what occurred after I left. Then
Speaker 4: she said she messaged one of the individuals that she saw. Hey,
Speaker 4: I just want to say I was a passenger on
Speaker 4: another boat and I saw the argument between you guys,
Speaker 4: and we'll go to the police with this information. I
Speaker 4: also have video footage my husband doesn't show much, but
Speaker 4: it shows the argument that was taken and how you
Speaker 4: guys were upset at Nolan because of the young lady.
Speaker 1: That from secret Service. Sam on TikTok okay, how is
Speaker 1: this helping the investigation. I'm trying to make sense of
Speaker 1: so many people online making comments. Now, if this is true,
Speaker 1: if there is a witness who has a husband with
Speaker 1: her on the boat, and they took a certain amount
Speaker 1: of video. It could change everything, especially if the video
Speaker 1: is time stamped straight out to veteran trial lawyer at
Speaker 1: defense attorney Philip Dubay joining me. He's joining us out
Speaker 1: of LA formerly in the Public Defender's office. They try
Speaker 1: a ton of cases, Philip. First of all, has she
Speaker 1: turned it into police? She said she was. If she hasn't,
Speaker 1: I give her no credibility at all. Look, I want
Speaker 1: this to be true. Why because I want the video.
Speaker 1: I want to see the time stamp on the video.
Speaker 1: I want to see was he still on Horn Island
Speaker 1: at four point thirty when his acquaintance is on the
Speaker 1: Triton boat left? I want that video. And if she
Speaker 1: hasn't brought this forward to l E law enforcement, then
Speaker 1: it means nothing to me. I mean, if I know
Speaker 1: a young man turns up dead in the water, and
Speaker 1: I know there's a controversy surrounding this, I mean, we
Speaker 1: know she knows that because she's gone online and posted it,
Speaker 1: then why not hand it over to police?
Speaker 5: Agreed, and it should go to the grand jury for
Speaker 5: part of their investigation. But I got to tell you
Speaker 5: if I were cross examining her, should this even go
Speaker 5: to trial? The first question I'd asked her on that
Speaker 5: fourth of July what she had been drinking before that
Speaker 5: video got activated?
Speaker 6: Everybody would want to work him up.
Speaker 5: How many people were play?
Speaker 1: Have you lost your mind? You defend criminal cases. I
Speaker 1: bet everybody you put on the stand has either been high,
Speaker 1: drunk or worse during the altercation. Every witness is not
Speaker 1: a nun, a priest, or a virgin. Everybody on Horn
Speaker 1: Island was drinking. Man, what are you talking about. I
Speaker 1: don't care if she took a drink. I want the video.
Speaker 5: You want the truth?
Speaker 7: Is what you want?
Speaker 5: You want the truth? And yeah, and that would be
Speaker 5: the video, remember Nancy.
Speaker 1: Okay, but it's not consistent. Brandon Tatum is joining us.
Speaker 1: So after all that, all you have to say is
Speaker 1: was she drinking? That's what that's your takeaway from that?
Speaker 1: Joining me is Brandon Tatum forign police Officer Tucson now
Speaker 1: star of the Officer Tatum on YouTube, who famously has
Speaker 1: interviewed the acquaintances, who all say they had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with it. Let's just put that out there. He's
Speaker 1: interviewed them extensively. I want to talk about not what
Speaker 1: you want to talk about, Brandon Tatum, which is they
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with this because I met them
Speaker 1: and I believe them, so noted. Can we talk about
Speaker 1: a potential witness to an altercation and she seems to
Speaker 1: suggest it was over Katie. Why don't know what the
Speaker 1: altercation was. Maybe it was hey, leave her alone and
Speaker 1: get on the boat, or leave her alone, she's my girlfriend,
Speaker 1: or it could be anything. But if there is a
Speaker 1: witness placing Nolan seemingly in the water, I can't tell that.
Speaker 1: But having an argument with another person, a partier at
Speaker 1: Horn Island, that is significant. It could prove or disprove
Speaker 1: your friend's timeline.
Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, I think that it's a big obstacle to
Speaker 8: climb here because I've never heard of this altercation whatsoever.
Speaker 8: Nobody that I've talked to have alluded that this altercation
Speaker 8: was real, and alsow Katie, whom I saw her text messages,
Speaker 8: she didn't even say this altercation occurred. What I will
Speaker 8: say is that if I was an investigator in this investigation,
Speaker 8: I want to hear that. I want to be able
Speaker 8: to compare that information to other things that we may
Speaker 8: have other witness statements, but I don't think it's significant
Speaker 8: because it doesn't show if Nolan Wells was actually killed
Speaker 8: in that altercation. She's claiming that there was an altercation
Speaker 8: between him arguing with somebody else. There was a potential fight,
Speaker 8: but that doesn't get me to how did he drown,
Speaker 8: how did he get in the water, and how did
Speaker 8: he not recover and come home.
Speaker 7: To his family.
Speaker 8: So I would take that into consideration, I would compare
Speaker 8: that to the other with interviews that I've done, but
Speaker 8: I don't think it's significant whatsoever. However, I would be
Speaker 8: incredibly skeptical because there's no other statements that I've heard
Speaker 8: from anybody that comes even close to an altercation with
Speaker 8: Nolan Wells and others over a girl.
Speaker 1: Number one, He's dead shortly after an alleged altercation with
Speaker 1: another male we think over a woman. See in my world,
Speaker 1: I put together both circumstantial and direct evidence. Direct evidence
Speaker 1: would be, for instance, DNA or a fingerprint. Circumstantial evidence
Speaker 1: is the timing of the alleged altercation and his death.
Speaker 1: Right there's some kind of altercation on Horn Island just
Speaker 1: before he dies, and they were.
Speaker 8: Well Nancy she's not saying he lost the fight. She's
Speaker 8: not saying that he got beat up. If you look
Speaker 8: at the autopsy, there's no clear signs of blunt force
Speaker 8: trauma to his face or any of the vital areas
Speaker 8: that could kill him. So it doesn't appear that there
Speaker 8: is any indication that he lost a fight, that there
Speaker 8: was enough trauma in this particular fight that would lead
Speaker 8: to his death. And when you look at the autopsy,
Speaker 8: there is no blunt force trauma to his face. There
Speaker 8: is no lacerations or damages to the back of his head.
Speaker 8: This is rettness that was underneath the skin.
Speaker 1: Are you looking at the spring because I'm looking at
Speaker 1: a big red mark on the back of his head.
Speaker 7: Yeah, but this is underneath the skin.
Speaker 8: This is not a big red gash that's in the
Speaker 8: back of his head, which would be consistent with blunt
Speaker 8: force trauma. This is something that occurred underneath the skin
Speaker 8: that could have been from pooling of blood after his
Speaker 8: death due to you know, Okay, to explain some I
Speaker 8: got it. I don't want I'll let the experts talk
Speaker 8: about specifics, but it doesn't appear.
Speaker 1: Let's do that. But I want everyone to understand why
Speaker 1: Officer Tatum is here. Officer Tatum and Philip Debay and
Speaker 1: others on our panel tonight are taking a particular side right.
Speaker 1: It's called cross examination, and it is similar to what
Speaker 1: happens in court. A theory emerges, a line of questioning emerges,
Speaker 1: and the other side tested with fire under cross examination,
Speaker 1: and then hopefully you get to the truth. Right now,
Speaker 1: we're talking about an alleged eyewitness to an altercation just
Speaker 1: before Nolan Wells is dead. If she has not handed
Speaker 1: this over to the police, it doesn't mean a hill
Speaker 1: of beans to me. But Tatum has a good idea
Speaker 1: and that is, let's let an expert discuss it to
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, death Investigator, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University.
Speaker 1: You can see him now on a hit podcast. It's
Speaker 1: on YouTube Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan Joe Scott.
Speaker 1: If there had been not a blunt force trauma that
Speaker 1: Officer Tatum is describing, but a fist fight, If there
Speaker 1: had been a fist fight plus body in water for
Speaker 1: multiple days, body decomposition, would you expect to see red
Speaker 1: marks on the hands at that juncture on the face,
Speaker 1: what would you expect if there had been a fisticuffs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would see well, first off, above discolored areas
Speaker 2: like consistent with contusions. If there are facial strikes or
Speaker 2: just body blows, you can actually see a braided areas
Speaker 2: over the surface of his fingers. And these are very
Speaker 2: subtle sometimes and if there is decomposition, which we believe
Speaker 2: there is, particularly or the second autopsy that was performed,
Speaker 2: he didn't make note of this. And can I go
Speaker 2: one more step with this? And this is kind of graphic,
Speaker 2: but people need to understand this. This physician that did
Speaker 2: the second autopsy actually did what's referred to as a
Speaker 2: coronal sectioning of the face. So there were multiple incisions
Speaker 2: made into Nolan's face in this autopsy, this second autopsy,
Speaker 2: and this guy didn't see anything. He didn't see anything
Speaker 2: that was of import relative or indicative of blunt force trauma.
Speaker 2: And I would think that if there was contact, particularly
Speaker 2: if he's fighting a group of people these sorts of things,
Speaker 2: you're gonna have injuries probably on the leading leading edges
Speaker 2: or what we refer to as the blade of the
Speaker 2: arm right here on the forearm, the back of the hands,
Speaker 2: the knuckles as points of contact, and certainly if there's
Speaker 2: facial strikes going on with him, which we find would
Speaker 2: force trauma many times with fisticuffs, as you say, you'll
Speaker 2: see these strikes, You'll see you'll see marks on the face.
Speaker 2: There's nothing to indicate that in the second autopsy. Now
Speaker 2: what the state has I don't know, but I do
Speaker 2: know this. I know they're saying they're done with the
Speaker 2: autopsy and it's complete, which means the gross findings and
Speaker 2: the autopsy room, the tox the histology. That means that
Speaker 2: that autopsy report is complete. They just hadn't released their
Speaker 2: findings yet.
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Gray, the autopsy is complete. There
Speaker 1: are reports that there is no cocaine in no one's
Speaker 1: system as uncorroborated reports, but a good source no cocaine
Speaker 1: in the system, Joe Scott. When the body has been
Speaker 1: in the elements such as the water for that long,
Speaker 1: how can I confirm if he had been drinking or not.
Speaker 2: Oh, you can still pull a ba blood alcohol or
Speaker 2: blood ethanol level as it's referred to. And again, Nancy,
Speaker 2: we're not talking about someone that has been down for
Speaker 2: weeks and weeks. We can still do the ba UH
Speaker 2: and it can come from urine blood. We can still
Speaker 2: draw urine uh and find it pretty effectively. Uh, you'll
Speaker 2: have what's referred to as qualitative We've talked about this before,
Speaker 2: and I know you understand that, but so so our
Speaker 2: friends understand. You have a qualitative amount which they say, yes,
Speaker 2: it is present, and then you have a quantitative amount
Speaker 2: where they do the measurement of the BAC. Uh, the
Speaker 2: blood alcohol content. You know, just think about d w I,
Speaker 2: d U I, wherever you're from. Uh, you know, those
Speaker 2: those levels and we get up to those lethal levels.
Speaker 2: That's really what I'm interested in relative and yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: interested in any of the other toxicological findings you might
Speaker 2: have relative to anything liiccit or illicit drugs, but particularly
Speaker 2: with alcohol, because that has been kind of this thing
Speaker 2: that has been said over and over and over again. Well,
Speaker 2: let me see it. I want to know what the
Speaker 2: blood alcohol level was like, and historically, I would like
Speaker 2: to know what his level of experience has been with alcohol,
Speaker 2: as you well know because of the cases you've worked
Speaker 2: on in the past. Nancy, if you're a lightweight, if
Speaker 2: you've never had anything to drink, and you start taking
Speaker 2: on copious amounts of alcohol, you know, and you're kind
Speaker 2: of a neophyte in this area. It can have very
Speaker 2: very lethal outcomes.
Speaker 1: Well, let me understand Joe Scott Morgan joining US Star
Speaker 1: body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on YouTube and Death Investigator.
Speaker 1: When I'm asking you, even if the body has been
Speaker 1: in the elements for a period of days, can I
Speaker 1: still get a blood alcohol? Maybe not from urine, but
Speaker 1: you certainly can't do a blow test. But can you
Speaker 1: take human tissue from one of the organs and extract
Speaker 1: a blood alcohol from human tissue?
Speaker 2: It'd be very difficult. Generally, the lever the liver is
Speaker 2: the best candidate will spin that down. We'll take a
Speaker 2: section of it, spin it down and liquefy it. But again,
Speaker 2: I submit to you, Nancy, that he has not been
Speaker 2: down long enough to compromise the ability to get at
Speaker 2: least a quantitative amount. Yeah, to get a ba okay.
Speaker 1: To Philip Dubay joining me, a veteran trial lawyer defense
Speaker 1: attorney out of the LA jurisdiction, I'm not quite sure
Speaker 1: why you're so focused on who had been drinking. Take
Speaker 1: a look at the video. Let me answer that for you.
Speaker 1: Everybody was drinking. Okay, everybody had a snoopfull, So even
Speaker 1: someone drinking can see an altercation. Debay, Oh of course
Speaker 1: she can.
Speaker 6: And I can see that crowd of people out there.
Speaker 6: It was a bustling hot Fourth of July afternoon. But
Speaker 6: who's to say that the people that she saw included
Speaker 6: Nolan Wells. And that's why you got to get into
Speaker 6: her ability to perceive and recollect being impacted by intoxicants
Speaker 6: such as alcohol. I would want to know if she
Speaker 6: had imbibed. I really would not to mention the autopsy
Speaker 6: findings thus far do not reflect any type of physical
Speaker 6: insults or injury to his body.
Speaker 5: At most, what you.
Speaker 1: Have are asking you about your fixation on the witness
Speaker 1: having been drinking. Joe Scott Morgan has already addressed the
Speaker 1: body I'm talking to you about the alleged witness.
Speaker 5: Yeah, if she had in fact been drinking, I do
Speaker 5: believe unless they really have a video showing him an
Speaker 5: HD quality showing that he was in a fight, then
Speaker 5: I would call her ability to perceive, recollect, and even
Speaker 5: state that there was an altercation going on in her presence.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 1: Brandon Tatum joining US Officer Tatum on YouTube. I've cross
Speaker 1: examined a lot of witnesses, and I cross examined them
Speaker 1: exactly on that. How far away were you, did you
Speaker 1: know the target, were you familiar with them? Was your
Speaker 1: vision obstructed by anything? Were you wearing glasses, were you
Speaker 1: wearing sunglasses? What time of the day. I mean, I
Speaker 1: could go on on them, but unless you have a
Speaker 1: nun appriest or a virgin on the stand, or maybe
Speaker 1: Angel Gabriel might come down and testify, you have to
Speaker 1: take your witness as you find them. And I'm sure
Speaker 1: you've had a lot of drunk witnesses in Tucson to
Speaker 1: everything from a bar fight to a murder to a
Speaker 1: dope deal. Look, I'd say a good fifty percent of
Speaker 1: witnesses were drunk at one time or the other. That
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they didn't see what they saw.
Speaker 8: Well from a law enforcement perspective, you know, this is
Speaker 8: not cross examination on the stand. This is us what
Speaker 8: I would deal with with the witnesses right on the scene,
Speaker 8: and I don't I'm not too concerned of whether the
Speaker 8: person is drunk or not. I'm not going to test
Speaker 8: their blood alcohol level on the scene. I want to
Speaker 8: know specifically, what did you see, what are the identifying
Speaker 8: markers that you have to say that this is Nolan.
Speaker 8: If that person can describe them, maybe we'll do a
Speaker 8: show up. If we have like a video, a picture
Speaker 8: or something we could show them and say, hey, does
Speaker 8: this match the person you think that was here, then.
Speaker 7: We'll have a good perspective.
Speaker 8: But there is a challenge here because you do have
Speaker 8: to identify him. You can't just say it was a
Speaker 8: black man out there with curly hair and I think
Speaker 8: it was Nolan. You know, you're going to have to
Speaker 8: have some clear identifying markers that you know this is Nolan,
Speaker 8: and then you have to identify the people he was
Speaker 8: fighting with and the girl. And I think this person
Speaker 8: is going to have a big chain challenge. I saw
Speaker 8: this text message. We reached out to the girl on
Speaker 8: our social media. She never responded to us. I don't
Speaker 8: know if she ever really sent it in to the police,
Speaker 8: but it is problematic in my opinion if she hasn't
Speaker 8: if you're going to say somebody is going to spend
Speaker 8: time in jail, or you are alluding to the fact
Speaker 8: they've committed a crime, and the fact now that we
Speaker 8: know that Nolan did not survive being out there at
Speaker 8: Horn Island and you never submitted that to law enforcement.
Speaker 8: There's a potential that that's tampering with evidence. If you
Speaker 8: have evidence of a crime and you're withholding that from
Speaker 8: law enforcement and you knowingly and intentionally are doing that,
Speaker 8: that could be very problematic for a person who claimed
Speaker 8: to be a witness.
Speaker 1: Now, now, morally it's wrong, but there is no duty
Speaker 1: under the law that you have to report yourself as
Speaker 1: a witness, that you have to volunteer information. You can
Speaker 1: stand on the side of a pool and watch somebody
Speaker 1: drown and do nothing unless you have a fiduciary capacity.
Speaker 1: And yet it's not a crime in our jurisprudence. So
Speaker 1: nothing is compelling her under the low to come forward. However,
Speaker 1: interesting she did post it, she did identify herself, She
Speaker 1: did say she was going to police, and that would
Speaker 1: be my first line of cross. Did you take this
Speaker 1: to the police? And if she said no, all h
Speaker 1: double l would break breakout in that courtroom. If you
Speaker 1: have information like this and you don't go to the police. Now,
Speaker 1: would fly for woold fly? You ever seen a dogfight?
Speaker 1: That's what I mean by that. For would fly? So
Speaker 1: that would be a line across exam, hold on something
Speaker 1: else before I go out to Susan Hendrix, Jeff Schuttler,
Speaker 1: and Ben Dobrin. Now information that there is in fact
Speaker 1: a criminal investigation.
Speaker 4: Hearing that somebody who has an inside source is saying
Speaker 4: the DA's office in Mississippi is now looking at the
Speaker 4: Nolan Will's case as a criminal investigation and no longer
Speaker 4: an accidental drowning. Now we can only pray that this
Speaker 4: is true. Obviously we can't, you know, we can't celebrate.
Speaker 4: We can't get excited at all, because I have not
Speaker 4: seen Ben Crump announces. It is not being reported by
Speaker 4: any other major media sources. But there are rumblings.
Speaker 1: From Sam Krupin. All right. I would like to point
Speaker 1: out that his source is a quote Little Birdie at
Speaker 1: Little Birdies are saying that an inside source says the
Speaker 1: DA's office is now looking into the Nolan Wells as
Speaker 1: a criminal investigation. I can't put that up on the stand.
Speaker 1: Susan Hendricks joining me, investigative journalist and author of Down
Speaker 1: the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan,
Speaker 1: you get laughed out of court if your witness at
Speaker 1: a Little Bertie told me number one, that's hearsay, but
Speaker 1: a little Bertie, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 9: It makes me wonder, did that woman those text messages
Speaker 9: about some sort of altercation. Is the grand jury analyzing
Speaker 9: this as we speak, because finally the DA came out
Speaker 9: and said, look, I can't release anything that's going on,
Speaker 9: but let it be clear, and I'm paraphrasing that we
Speaker 9: are investigating this with a grand jury.
Speaker 1: Susan Hendrick, You're absolutely right, she states most recently, this
Speaker 1: is the elected district attorney. My obligation and commitment is
Speaker 1: to present the grand jury with all the evidence collected
Speaker 1: in the case in order for them to reach a
Speaker 1: decision based on a thorough investigation, complete evidence, presentation, the
Speaker 1: actual truth, and an understanding of the law. I'm obligated
Speaker 1: to do so in keeping with the law and the
Speaker 1: rules of the court. She goes on to state, stand
Speaker 1: firmly on the rule of law and my ethical obligation.
Speaker 1: That is what the people of Jackson County elected me
Speaker 1: to do. I will present the grand jury with a thorough,
Speaker 1: complete and fair investigation into the death of Nolan wells
Speaker 1: Now is there a criminal investigation? According to some sources,
Speaker 1: there is. We keep hearing, there is no criminal investigation.
Speaker 1: To Dave Matt Crime Story's investigative reporter, what is the
Speaker 1: truth of it tonight, Nancy.
Speaker 10: It hasn't been announced that there's a criminal investigation, but
Speaker 10: it just stands to reason that they are doing a
Speaker 10: full investigation into the death of Nolan Wells. At this point,
Speaker 10: we don't have a cause of death, Nancy. They have
Speaker 10: not released the reports on the autopsy that was done
Speaker 10: by the state, completed weeks ago. We don't know anything.
Speaker 7: Nothing's been released.
Speaker 10: So whether they're doing a criminal investigation or not, I
Speaker 10: think it stands the reason they are investigating to every
Speaker 10: piece of evidence they can find to determine what happened
Speaker 10: and what they can present they being investigators to the
Speaker 10: grand jury.
Speaker 3: I understand the public's urgency to know what happened to Nolan,
Speaker 3: but we are not taking time for time's sake. We
Speaker 3: are taking the time required to complete the work this
Speaker 3: investigation demands. Since Nolan was reported missing, local, state, and
Speaker 3: federal law enforcement agencies have worked around the clock investigating
Speaker 3: what happened to him. Every piece of evidence must be examined,
Speaker 3: Every credible lead must be followed to its conclusion. Every
Speaker 3: witness interview must be analyzed in context of all other evidence.
Speaker 3: The pressure for answers does not change what the work requires.
Speaker 3: Our responsibility to Nolan in our community is to complete
Speaker 3: this investigation thoroughly, carefully, without compromise, supported by the evidence,
Speaker 3: and worthy of the confidence of the people we serve.
Speaker 3: I also understand that many people have questions about why
Speaker 3: more information has not been released publicly. In Mississippi, the
Speaker 3: rules of professional conduct restrict the information a prosecutor can
Speaker 3: release during an investigation. Our restraint in communicating facts and
Speaker 3: evidence is not an effort to keep the truth from
Speaker 3: the public. It is an effort to protect the integrity
Speaker 3: of this investigation. In the grandeury proceeding.
Speaker 1: And tonight more rumblings that the wrong boat was searched.
Speaker 4: The MDMR report states that the searched vessel was called
Speaker 4: a tided craft right on July eighth, but witnesses show
Speaker 4: he used a tied line boat on July fourth. In
Speaker 4: the MDMR report, right down to the bottom in the
Speaker 4: yellow it says tiede craft not tied line.
Speaker 1: From Sam Krupin to being a Dobrin emergency Response diving
Speaker 1: instructor and trainer Ben thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1: What about the mistake in the name of the boat,
Speaker 1: if it was in fact a mistake, and could that
Speaker 1: explain any problem in getting GPS information?
Speaker 11: Well, absolutely, because they're two different brands of boats. It's
Speaker 11: like saying I'm going to search a Ford and then
Speaker 11: you go out and search a Chevrolet in a car.
Speaker 11: Very different brands of boats, and so if they were
Speaker 11: searching the wrong boat, then any information on that boat
Speaker 11: would be the wrong information. So if you're going after
Speaker 11: the GPS ladder on the Chevrolet, but you want the
Speaker 11: GPS plotter off of the Ford, they have no bearing
Speaker 11: and so if you're searching the incorrect boat, you have
Speaker 11: incorrect evidence.
Speaker 1: To Brandon Tatum, start off the officer Tatum on YouTube,
Speaker 1: we just saw some video from your show and I'm
Speaker 1: trying to figure out, among other things, what time and day.
Speaker 1: If you have a time and a date stamp on
Speaker 1: that that seemingly shows the try and when a lot
Speaker 1: of people on it leaving the island, leaving Horn Island,
Speaker 1: do you have a time stamp on that.
Speaker 8: I don't have the time stamp. I can ask them
Speaker 8: to see if they can get it to me. When
Speaker 8: I watched this video and they presented it to me.
Speaker 8: This was during the time that the Seto call was occurring,
Speaker 8: so it had to been right around at time. You
Speaker 8: could see Whyatt on the boat on the phone, and
Speaker 8: so this is how it was presented to me. And
Speaker 8: just to kind of answer you a question about the
Speaker 8: boat searches, that it's partially irrelevant. Depending on the investigation
Speaker 8: and the interviews that they've done. There is no indication
Speaker 8: that there was a crime committed on any one of
Speaker 8: these boats. When you have sixty people that have already
Speaker 8: given statements to law enforcement, you have the young men
Speaker 8: that I interviewed that were on their boat that left
Speaker 8: the island, and then you have people that saw Nolan
Speaker 8: on the island after they had left. It's no indication
Speaker 8: that Nolan was on any one of those boats at
Speaker 8: any point in time, and that a murder occurred on
Speaker 8: those boats. So regardless if they searched them or not,
Speaker 8: you know, it was offered up for them to use
Speaker 8: a cadaver dog, but that never occurred, and so I
Speaker 8: don't really think that the boat situation of search is significant.
Speaker 8: The boys submitted their life three sixty, which is how
Speaker 8: they got a GPS tracking of when they left the island,
Speaker 8: and how they got from point A to point B
Speaker 8: where they docked, and all of those things. So all
Speaker 8: of the information has been concluded, or at least have
Speaker 8: been explored, and it didn't appear that there was any
Speaker 8: foul play on any one of the boats.
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Officer Tatum, I respect everything
Speaker 1: that you just said, but do have a witness. Tell
Speaker 1: me it's true because I said so, because my friends
Speaker 1: say so, that doesn't mean it could be true. And
Speaker 1: I see provided GPS, that doesn't tell me what happened
Speaker 1: to No One just because they like.
Speaker 8: They came, they provided Life three sixty, they provided THECITO call,
Speaker 8: and you can put those two things together and say, okay,
Speaker 8: the timeline matches. And if they left at four thirty,
Speaker 8: they were already gone. All three boats that came out
Speaker 8: were already gone when Nola was last seen.
Speaker 7: So now you have a timeline.
Speaker 1: That okay, there, right there. I was going with you
Speaker 1: until you said the time no One was last seen.
Speaker 1: Because their GPS data I'm sure is correct, and their
Speaker 1: Life three sixty data, I'm sure is correct. I'm not
Speaker 1: arguing with the technology, but what happened just before that,
Speaker 1: where was no one when they're leaving the island. You
Speaker 1: can on that island at five or six o'clock. Please
Speaker 1: do it, and then I will turn attention elsewhere. I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to hang your friends, the people that you
Speaker 1: have interviewed, and I respect that you believe them, and
Speaker 1: maybe you're right. If he can be placed on that
Speaker 1: island at five or six o'clock, then they're in the clear.
Speaker 8: But I want to report the report them there and
Speaker 8: how reports have come out that there's two reliable witnesses.
Speaker 8: TMZ reported on this. They said they saw Nolan a
Speaker 8: little bit before six pm. There's also the young lady
Speaker 8: Katie who sent text messages to one of the boys
Speaker 8: that I interviewed. I saw the text message messages where
Speaker 8: she alluded to the fact that she did not see
Speaker 8: Nolan get on the boat. She heard the boys yelling
Speaker 8: for Nolan to get on the boat. So Nolan never
Speaker 8: got back on the boat that he came on. So
Speaker 8: you have the boats leaving, you have a seto call,
Speaker 8: you have testimony from everybody on the boat, and all
Speaker 8: of those things have to be taken in consideration. Also,
Speaker 8: they have already spoke to law enforcement about this.
Speaker 7: Them talking to me in the interview, is them just
Speaker 7: telling the world what they te law enforcement.
Speaker 8: If there was any indication whatsoever that he was on
Speaker 8: the boat based on the testimony that was given from
Speaker 8: the boys or anybody else, even this new witness that
Speaker 8: have come forward, I think that there would be a
Speaker 8: significant investigation leading to an immediate arrest. But they clearly
Speaker 8: don't have any clear evidence that there is a crime
Speaker 8: that is committed, and especially a crime that was committed
Speaker 8: from the boys that I interviewed. I can't speak for
Speaker 8: everybody else, but I know the young men that I
Speaker 8: talked to, they were gone. There's no indication that Nolan
Speaker 8: was on the boat whatsoever. Their given statements. Katie gave
Speaker 8: a statement. Even this person that's claiming that they saw
Speaker 8: Nolan get into a fistfight, it appears that this person's
Speaker 8: claiming that the fight has happened after Wyatt and the
Speaker 8: rest of them had left on the boats.
Speaker 1: Ben Jobron joining US Emergency Response diving instructor, what do
Speaker 1: you think regarding the boats, not just the Triton, but
Speaker 1: the other two that traveled with it.
Speaker 11: My question is where did he go?
Speaker 7: In the water.
Speaker 11: They got him out of the water obviously on July sixth,
Speaker 11: But my question is where did he go in the
Speaker 11: water and when did he get into the water? Was
Speaker 11: it a drowning. Bodies behave differently underwater, whether it's a
Speaker 11: drowning or it was a killing elsewhere. You know, there's
Speaker 11: a lot of different variables. The body washed up very
Speaker 11: close to where he was last seen. There's a lot
Speaker 11: of current in that area. If it was a drowning,
Speaker 11: you know, people generally sink when they drown, but if
Speaker 11: you don't drown and you're put in the water, you're
Speaker 11: more likely to float. And so there's a lot of
Speaker 11: variables that come into play of where the body was
Speaker 11: recovered versus where the body went in and the timeline. Also,
Speaker 11: you know two days. If the body had been in
Speaker 11: the water for two days, that does lead to decomposition.
Speaker 11: The water temperature is around eighty five to eighty eight degrees.
Speaker 11: That's very warm water, a lot of bacterial growth, and
Speaker 11: so a lot of different variables in play of where
Speaker 11: the body went in and where it came out and
Speaker 11: the wind. Those are my questions. He's an athletic young man,
Speaker 11: he's very muscular muscles sink in the water. Fat floats,
Speaker 11: and so if he drowned, he was probably gonna be
Speaker 11: on the bottom for a while. And if it was
Speaker 11: two days, you know, that makes sense if he drowned
Speaker 11: and then washed up very close to where he went in.
Speaker 11: And so to me, that that's a big piece of
Speaker 11: important information is you know, if he drowned, he was
Speaker 11: recovered very close to where where that he.
Speaker 7: Was last seen.
Speaker 11: But what does that prove, Mike, If he drowned and
Speaker 11: he floated, because in warm water, it takes two to
Speaker 11: three days for your body to decompose and float, it
Speaker 11: proves that he was he drowned. Whether it was somebody
Speaker 11: holding him underwater and trying not you know, trying to
Speaker 11: swim somewhere and wasn't a good swimmer, I have no idea,
Speaker 11: But we haven't gotten the results from the autopsy, and
Speaker 11: the autopsy's going to tell us a lot. If he drowned,
Speaker 11: that's an important piece of information. If he did not drown,
Speaker 11: that's even more important. Of somebody who was found in
Speaker 11: the water. His body was found in the water and
Speaker 11: did not drown, that's a very important piece of information.
Speaker 11: But if he did drown and they found him in
Speaker 11: the water. That can open up a lot more avenues
Speaker 11: for investigation at that point.
Speaker 1: Philip Dubay joining US veteran trial lawyer, Philip, we know
Speaker 1: because the district attorney has said she is presenting information
Speaker 1: to a grand jury. There are reports it is a
Speaker 1: criminal investigation. What do you make of the possibility this
Speaker 1: is a criminal investigation.
Speaker 5: I'll tell you exactly what it is. Jackson County, Mississippi,
Speaker 5: is one of the few jurisdictions in the United States
Speaker 5: that follows the old sergeant code. And what that was
Speaker 5: back in the day was the days of the coroner
Speaker 5: in quest, where if you had a violent, sudden, or
Speaker 5: casual death and they couldn't figure out what happened, you
Speaker 5: would then panel a jury where the medical examiner or
Speaker 5: the appointed or elected coroner illicits testimony from people to
Speaker 5: try to determine manner and cause of death. What Mississippi
Speaker 5: did is they abrogated that and created this hybrid sort
Speaker 5: of coroner's in quest with grand jury investigation, where the
Speaker 5: grand jury will decide whether or not a death occurred
Speaker 5: and if there was a crime, and based on that
Speaker 5: they can complete the death certificate. With the cause and
Speaker 5: manner of death and decide if they're going to return
Speaker 5: a true bill of indictment against a suspect.
Speaker 1: Is it your belief, Philip Dubay that the grand jury
Speaker 1: presenter and I have presented to literally hundreds of grand juries,
Speaker 1: one of the first things we would do in the
Speaker 1: Fulton County District Attorney's office, is it your belief that
Speaker 1: to a large degree, it depends on the leaning of
Speaker 1: the presenter. Does the presenter believe a crime occurred or
Speaker 1: does a presenter want a no bill in other words,
Speaker 1: no indictment.
Speaker 5: It's twofold. They want to determine first of all, cause
Speaker 5: a manner of death and if it's a crime, and
Speaker 5: so they've sort of combined the roles of the grand
Speaker 5: jury leader if you will, or the grand jury daight
Speaker 5: to help the grand jury make both determinations. So it's
Speaker 5: my opinion right now, they don't know if they even
Speaker 5: have a homicide. They don't even know the cause of death,
Speaker 5: but they've lumped in all the causality to criminality just
Speaker 5: to get it all in one.
Speaker 1: Let me rephrase it, do bey well, the grand jury
Speaker 1: typically do what the presenter wants them to do I mean,
Speaker 1: haven't you heard the phrase a grand jury will undyet
Speaker 1: a ham sandwich if the presenter wants them to. Sure, Yeah,
Speaker 1: yes it is okay. So we'll see what happens with
Speaker 1: this secret grand jury. You're on cross examination? Who is
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Speaker 1: we are trying to confirm or refute claims that Nolan
Speaker 1: Wells was alive on Horn Island after five or even
Speaker 1: six pm. If you know or think you know anything
Speaker 1: regarding that matter Nolan Wells's last scene alive, don't just
Speaker 1: post it online called Jackson County Sheriffs two two eight
Speaker 1: seven six' nine three zero six three repeat two two
Speaker 1: eight seven six nine three zero six. Three there is
Speaker 1: a one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars reward for
Speaker 1: information leading to the truth of what happened To Nolan.
Speaker 1: Wells was there an, altercation did it break out into
Speaker 1: a fistfight just before he is? Killed did he? Drown
Speaker 1: what was the true cause of? Death we are waiting
Speaker 1: for facts to allow the truth to. Unfold tonight we
Speaker 1: remember An american Hero, Officer Dustin, Krish, carrollton P. D,
Speaker 1: georgia just thirty, three killed in the line of duty
Speaker 1: after three years on the, force leaving behind a grieving, Wife.
Speaker 1: Emily american Hero Officer Dustin. Chrish thank you to all
Speaker 1: of our, guests but especially to you for being with.
Speaker 1: Us Nancy gray signing off for, tonight But i'll see
Speaker 1: you tomorrow, night and until, then