Speaker 1: Warning. Today's episode contains spoilers for Wonderman episodes five through eight.
Speaker 1: Be warned. Hello, Iam and Jason Concepcion and I'm Rosie
Speaker 1: Knight and welcome back to x Revision, the podcast where
Speaker 1: we dive deep. It's your favorite shows, movies, comics and
Speaker 1: pop culture company from my Heart, where we're bringing you
Speaker 1: three episodes weekly.
Speaker 2: News plus news plus news. In today's episode, we are back.
Speaker 2: We're talking about wonder Man. We recap the first half
Speaker 2: of the season, which you can listen to now, and
Speaker 2: then you can listen to us recap the second half
Speaker 2: of the season. As you know if you listen to
Speaker 2: our first recaps, this is more of a deep dive
Speaker 2: discussion as this is a slice of life, superho show.
Speaker 2: But oh my god, what show is and we are
Speaker 2: going to be digging into all the emotionally heartbreaking events
Speaker 2: of the second half of wonder Man right now.
Speaker 1: Let's get into it. So episodes five through eight Found
Speaker 1: Footage Callback, Kathy Friedman and Yucca Valley are the back
Speaker 1: half of the wonder Man season. Quick recap Found Footage.
Speaker 1: A celebratory night spirals into a dangerous collision of ambition, exposure,
Speaker 1: and gunfire as Simon Williams dream comes within reaching the
Speaker 1: worst possible moment. Basically, there's a conversation with some local
Speaker 1: tuffs who have a problem with Trevor, and Simon uses
Speaker 1: powers but is unfortunately videotaped by a young man named Jayden,
Speaker 1: who then they have to deal with and do some
Speaker 1: stuff for it in order to get him to delete
Speaker 1: his footage. The situation spirals kind of out of control.
Speaker 2: Such a fun episode.
Speaker 1: Very very fun episode Episode six Callback for a long
Speaker 1: night of little sleep, Simon and Trevor race to von
Speaker 1: Kovac's house, where they work through their roles in a
Speaker 1: wonderful I mean, this is the one that was like,
Speaker 1: this is like Megalopolis Kathy Freeman. Episode seven Simon's controlled
Speaker 1: public persona because to unravel, Simon meets with Vivian, who
Speaker 1: understands that he's hiding something, and Trevor admits that he's
Speaker 1: been feeding information to damage Conrol all along, and this
Speaker 1: really like just breaks Simon's heart. Simon response by releasing
Speaker 1: ionic energy and basically destroying the entire sound stage. And
Speaker 1: then episode eight Uca Valley the finale. After Simon's destructive outburst,
Speaker 1: Trevor comes up with a plan to retake the Mandarin
Speaker 1: persona and basically blame himself for the explosion, saying that
Speaker 1: he as the terrorist known as the Mandarin who is
Speaker 1: real this time not fake, planting the explosives, blowing up
Speaker 1: the studio, thus clearing Simon, allowing him to rise to
Speaker 1: stardom behind the Wonder Man picture. That goes on to
Speaker 1: you know, shatter box offices around the globe, and then Simon,
Speaker 1: now a famous actor, goes undercover in perhaps his most
Speaker 1: important role to date as a warden at the Department
Speaker 1: of Damage Control prison in the desert in order to
Speaker 1: bust Trevor Slattery out. That is the season, and it
Speaker 1: was a wonderful, charming season that I think provided a
Speaker 1: roadmap for how Marvel can do more grounded, character driven
Speaker 1: superhero stories going forward. Let's talk about it. Your thoughts
Speaker 1: on Wonder Man.
Speaker 2: I just love this show so much. I thought the
Speaker 2: first half is great, as we talked about. I think
Speaker 2: the central conceit is so clever. Just hire a really
Speaker 2: fantastic actor and make a show about acting like ya.
Speaker 2: Ya is brilliant, so it makes sense that we love
Speaker 2: to watch him. But I really think that the back
Speaker 2: half of this season is such an emotionally draining yet
Speaker 2: satisfying kind of televisual experience for me. I kind of
Speaker 2: find shows that invest me this much a little bit
Speaker 2: hard to watch, like the Simon goes through it in
Speaker 2: these episodes. And Yeah, there was just something so beautiful
Speaker 2: about not only the Hollywood meta nature of as you mentioned, Jason,
Speaker 2: and I immediately put this in the group chat when
Speaker 2: I was rewatching. When you watch episode six after seeing
Speaker 2: the incredible megalopolist documentary Megadoc.
Speaker 1: It's crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, same exercises, question Mark. I know, it really does
Speaker 2: feel like somehow, maybe a crew member was on set.
Speaker 2: It feels like there was someone who was feeding information
Speaker 2: to the show about these kind of insane exercises. So
Speaker 2: when you watch wonder Man, it somehow feels more timely,
Speaker 2: more prescient, more like it's making a statement on the
Speaker 2: way that these things work. I also found that there
Speaker 2: is so much to love in Simon's character. We've had
Speaker 2: this conversation, and I think it's going on on the
Speaker 2: internet in general, this reading of maybe Simon is an
Speaker 2: autistic person or and you're a divergent person. And I
Speaker 2: loved how in episode six we get to see him
Speaker 2: having to try and emotionally regulate when something changes, like
Speaker 2: a plan changes and he suddenly can't improv. And this
Speaker 2: is my new hot take, I'm bad at improv because
Speaker 2: improv is ablest. I can't do it. Guys. It's hard
Speaker 2: when you just can't make things up. Okay, But like,
Speaker 2: I loved that episode and I feel like the eventual
Speaker 2: emotional payoff is so high. And I also think that
Speaker 2: Trevor taking the man their immantle back and kind of
Speaker 2: using it to save Simon is a really nice way
Speaker 2: to kind of acknowledge that tough journey that the character's
Speaker 2: been on, but ultimately reclaim it for something positive. And
Speaker 2: then I just love the ending so much. And I
Speaker 2: gotta ask you, Jason, the ending where we see Simon
Speaker 2: break Trevor out of prison and he's wearing the glasses.
Speaker 2: He's going up and you know he's going up in
Speaker 2: the sky's wearing the DODC uniform, but you can imagine
Speaker 2: him wearing the glasses wearing the Superho costume. Do you
Speaker 2: think if these characters come back, we're gonna get to
Speaker 2: see Simon living a dual life as an actor and
Speaker 2: a vigilante or do you think that this might be
Speaker 2: the last time we'll see them.
Speaker 1: I do wonder. I like the I like the idea
Speaker 1: that Simon becomes not just like an out superpowered, enhanced person,
Speaker 1: but also like a working actor behind it, which is
Speaker 1: very much comics accurate. You know, Simon Williams in the
Speaker 1: comics was a member of the West Coast Avengers and
Speaker 1: the Avengers in general, but also like starring in movies,
Speaker 1: television commercials, and TV shows. So I think that would
Speaker 1: be really I think that would be really cool if
Speaker 1: they can figure out how to do that. I will
Speaker 1: say that I like, Yeah, I love the reading of
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily pick up on it until it was
Speaker 1: mentioned in there in our group chat that you know,
Speaker 1: what if Simon Williams is, you know, neurodivergent on some level,
Speaker 1: and I think his inability to, like his ionic outbursts
Speaker 1: coming after being overstimulated stimulated, I think really track with that.
Speaker 1: But there's so many small character in this that just
Speaker 1: feel different and more raised to the level of importance
Speaker 1: within the character that used to be just for the
Speaker 1: superpowers or for the character's relationship with other superheroes, And
Speaker 1: that's just really good. Work, especially considering that, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure when we get a effective Marvel origin
Speaker 1: story type movie in the future, Like maybe I'm not
Speaker 1: sure how that happens in the future. Like Marvel has
Speaker 1: really kind of struggled with that, and you know, looking
Speaker 1: at Fantastic four, I think has you know, has struggled
Speaker 1: to do it while also trying to serve making blockbuster
Speaker 1: movies as like a goal. So I just think this
Speaker 1: was great. I think this is exactly how they can
Speaker 1: introduce characters in the future. I think the half hour
Speaker 1: format leave you leave, leave us wanting more, not wondering
Speaker 1: why they stretched this out is definitely something that they
Speaker 1: need to like do more of going forward. And to
Speaker 1: your point, there is so much stuff in here that
Speaker 1: is a love letter to movies, to Hollywood, to acting,
Speaker 1: to creativity, like all the von Kovac stuff where he's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: do I just see it again, but you just woke
Speaker 1: from a nap in which you had a dream that
Speaker 1: you were eating a kangaroo's placenta. Okay, let's go. Like
Speaker 1: all of that stuff is like mega, That's like Francis
Speaker 1: Coppola in Megadoc. That's exactly the shit he was doing,
Speaker 1: it's sure nuts. I just loved it. I thought it
Speaker 1: was it was really really really great. You never are
Speaker 1: It doesn't keep you waiting for like, Okay, when are
Speaker 1: the Superpowers going to come out? That's really like secondary
Speaker 1: to the character's arc struggle and goals. And I really
Speaker 1: love the fact that throughout this series, when Simon is
Speaker 1: struggling with like secrets that he's trying to not reveal,
Speaker 1: sometimes you're like, well, what is this, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: actually sure what he's talking about? Is he talking about
Speaker 1: like is this something about him potentially being new or divergent,
Speaker 1: or is it him just trying to keep his his
Speaker 1: his powers a secret. I thought the way those things
Speaker 1: conflated felt very human and lived in. I thought it
Speaker 1: was great program, great show.
Speaker 2: I totally agree. Something else I adored about it. You
Speaker 2: talked about the kind of meta Hollywood love last stuff,
Speaker 2: which we adore, and obviously it's kind of a love
Speaker 2: life TV and the film and the Amadeas heads are
Speaker 2: eating and everybody's loving it. But also I was really
Speaker 2: I thought it was very interesting to see a Marvel
Speaker 2: movie make a commentary on a conversation that the fans
Speaker 2: have because the man when the mand are in not
Speaker 2: the Mandalorian, as I almost said, I know you heard
Speaker 2: that round are coming out. But like the when the
Speaker 2: Mandarin explains why he allegedly blew up this mysterious studio
Speaker 2: lot that anyone who has ever seen a movie will
Speaker 2: know is Paramount Studios, but they blurt out the Paramount sign.
Speaker 2: He uses an argument that many of us have made
Speaker 2: about the MCU that the American Hollywood film industry is
Speaker 2: used to brainwash people that it is incotes with the
Speaker 2: military and all this kind of stuff. And the funny
Speaker 2: thing is Marvel takes that military money. Marvel has those
Speaker 2: Air Force contracts. That is the nature of making movies
Speaker 2: in Hollywood and wanting to use real military vehicles, etc.
Speaker 2: Et cetera, being able to have characters like Captain Marvel
Speaker 2: in the Air Force. So I found it very funny
Speaker 2: and meta and interesting, just like the rest of this show.
Speaker 2: To me, this feels like a very subversive show. It
Speaker 2: feels like a show that somebody said, hey, let's see
Speaker 2: if we can get this made in the Marvel model,
Speaker 2: and guess what they did. And I think now, like
Speaker 2: you said, Jason, it lays out a framework for how
Speaker 2: they could do this in the future. And Jason, I
Speaker 2: want to ask you, maybe when we get back from
Speaker 2: a break, but like, what would your dream pitch be
Speaker 2: for the next hero who gets something like this?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, let's talk about that when we come back
Speaker 1: from a break.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what would your dream pitch be for the next
Speaker 2: hero who gets something like this?
Speaker 1: Jeez? Good question. Well, like in a world in which
Speaker 1: in a world in which the mutants, I mean, Simon
Speaker 1: is basically a.
Speaker 2: Mutant, Chris's definitely can come from that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in this telling of the mc so, Simon Williams
Speaker 1: in the comics got his ionic powers through a lab accident,
Speaker 1: which is classic classic It's either an experiment, a lab accident,
Speaker 1: some sort of controlled explosion, you know, radioactive spidery, et cetera,
Speaker 1: or you're a mutant, And clearly it's the third of
Speaker 1: those three. Oh my god, gosh. I'd love to see
Speaker 1: like a Jubilee runaway mall story, like living in the mall,
Speaker 1: some aer in the mall, like and to I want
Speaker 1: to divert just for a second. One of the things
Speaker 1: I loved in terms of like how this program dealt
Speaker 1: with character is in the finale, you get Simon's scheme
Speaker 1: to break Trevor out right, he goes to Yucca, he
Speaker 1: meets with the security guard. He is like, I'm working
Speaker 1: on a role. I can't tell you what it is.
Speaker 1: And then you get this entire section of scenes where
Speaker 1: it's like he's meeting his family, he's talking with him,
Speaker 1: he's drinking with helping him train. There's all of these
Speaker 1: things that like another Marvel show would not have time
Speaker 1: for and would not even do. That would just be
Speaker 1: a guy like you actually don't need to know anything
Speaker 1: about that guy that Simon boondoggles into, although he does
Speaker 1: give him millions of dollars, yeah, in order to let
Speaker 1: him do that. But that is the kind of dedication
Speaker 1: to like rushing out characters that we need more of.
Speaker 1: And I mean there's so many characters that, like, you like,
Speaker 1: what if we did weird ones?
Speaker 2: I would love to say, well, I'm like, this is
Speaker 2: a close this is a gateway, Jason, because wonder Man
Speaker 2: is a weird character. So what's your weirdest slice of life?
Speaker 1: Paste pot Pete Like, yes, you know, like something like
Speaker 1: that or The Wizard, Like I think that I think
Speaker 1: that villains fleshed out villains who are you know, superheroes
Speaker 1: in villains in Marvel and often in DC become villains
Speaker 1: or heroes for the same reason. They just there's always
Speaker 1: the same kind of like inciting event, but they make
Speaker 1: the decision either to go light or dark based on that. Right,
Speaker 1: it's always like they got screwed over by their boss,
Speaker 1: or they got a prime, or there was an accident
Speaker 1: and someone like the Wizard or Pace Pop Pete or
Speaker 1: these kind of lower level criminal characters who like invent
Speaker 1: something thing that allows them to get ahead in life.
Speaker 1: I think that there could be some really interesting ways
Speaker 1: to approach those characters through this, And I also think
Speaker 1: that just generally speaking, we're kind of a villains. Is
Speaker 1: the thing the MCU has not been I think great
Speaker 1: at is Miley struggled, Yeah, really populating their stable of
Speaker 1: villains with colorful characters who can come and go. Too
Speaker 1: often it's like this intense like superpowered threat that you know,
Speaker 1: the Red Skull who once they're vanquished, they're kind of
Speaker 1: off the board, or Thanos that once you beat him,
Speaker 1: it's like that's it takes all of the superheroes to
Speaker 1: beat him. What about somebody who it takes like a
Speaker 1: street level superhero like a month to beat them, right.
Speaker 2: Isn't that what made five of Us so great? When
Speaker 2: you know this idea of males morale is getting this victim,
Speaker 2: you know, a villain of the week in the spot,
Speaker 2: and then that mutating into this crazy villainous origin. I
Speaker 2: love that idea, Jason. I also think you're right. I
Speaker 2: think Marvel needs to build out its rogues gallery. It's
Speaker 2: always had those cosmic villains that we love, but DC
Speaker 2: has that, and DC has a crazy rogues gallery. I
Speaker 2: would say, if I was gonna do it, i'd go
Speaker 2: for like a I'd probably go for a similar tone.
Speaker 2: I think this wonder Man tone is incredible. I would
Speaker 2: probably want to do like three D Man, but I
Speaker 2: would also use it to do my favorite thing, which
Speaker 2: is to recontextualize something that didn't work in the MCU.
Speaker 2: In this case, I'd be going for like a Ragnarock
Speaker 2: esque recontextualization of Secret Invasion, and it's all from three
Speaker 2: D Man's perspective as just a normal guy who can
Speaker 2: see all the scrolls and just nobody believes them. And
Speaker 2: then eventually, you know, you maybe find out that at
Speaker 2: some point he's able to help in a small way,
Speaker 2: but I think there would be something really fun in that,
Speaker 2: kind of almost like a They Live, but more of
Speaker 2: a farcical comedy about like, yeah, nobody believes that this
Speaker 2: guy with his three D glasses can see who the
Speaker 2: scrolls are because nobody knows the scrolls are there because
Speaker 2: they've been there for like forty years and nobody knows.
Speaker 2: And then you kind of kindly slowly catch up with
Speaker 2: secret Invasion and maybe try and change a little bit
Speaker 2: of what happened there. I think something like that could
Speaker 2: be fun, And I think you're right, Jason. I mean
Speaker 2: also something that worked for me so well. And this
Speaker 2: is very specific obviously because of where we live. But
Speaker 2: I loved how La this show was, and I loved
Speaker 2: how Chicago Echo that Ironheart was, and I loved how
Speaker 2: Echo a lot of it was spent on the res,
Speaker 2: Like I think these location being part of the heart
Speaker 2: of the series is a great way to ground it
Speaker 2: and to show how many different aspects there are of America.
Speaker 2: I would love to see like Jubilee, you know, where
Speaker 2: there's a huge Asian American community in a very famous
Speaker 2: mall in La de Lamo Male, like do a Torrent
Speaker 2: set Jubilee thing. I want to fucking watch that, Like,
Speaker 2: do these specific characters in these really beautiful lived in locations.
Speaker 2: I'll see what it's like to be the insurance salesman
Speaker 2: who has to tell everyone their car premiums are going
Speaker 2: up because the Hulk has smashed another five Nissans in
Speaker 2: you know, downtown New York or whatever. This is a
Speaker 2: great space for that. And look at how popular it's been.
Speaker 2: This show has gone barely any hatred. I've seen no
Speaker 2: trolling campaigns. I have only seen really happily surprised viewerships,
Speaker 2: especially because I think another thing we haven't really talked
Speaker 2: about is contextually this show is actually pretty dark for
Speaker 2: the MCU, like, it has a very bleak, sad sense
Speaker 2: of humor. It's very existential. It really dares the audience
Speaker 2: to go on more of like an intellectual and emotional
Speaker 2: journey with them, and that has hit here, so I
Speaker 2: think we got to follow and do more of that.
Speaker 1: I completely agree. I meant, part of Simon's journey is
Speaker 1: he has no friends. He's dedicated himself to this, you know,
Speaker 1: almost quixotic quest to become a Hollywood actor and a
Speaker 1: huge star. He's lying to his family about how successful
Speaker 1: he is. His only friend is Trevor Slattery, who is
Speaker 1: you know, like SENTI by him, sent by the government
Speaker 1: to spy on him. And he has no ability to
Speaker 1: like forge close bonds with with any kind of romantic partners.
Speaker 1: Like he's really struggling, and a lot of this story
Speaker 1: is like him trying to deal with that, and also
Speaker 1: the fact that he is more comfortable playing a role
Speaker 1: than being himself. Like that's when he becomes wonder Man
Speaker 1: at the end, you know, in the in the costume,
Speaker 1: with the goggles and the whole thing. It's it's because
Speaker 1: he has like embraced that role in a way that
Speaker 1: he wasn't able to embrace his own life, his own
Speaker 1: regular life.
Speaker 2: I think that's why he's also able to save Trevor,
Speaker 2: because he has become wonder Man, like he is able
Speaker 2: to bring that role into his life. Okay, Jason Joel
Speaker 2: gave us some really good big questions here, So with
Speaker 2: this and obviously the studio cleaning up so far at
Speaker 2: Award season is the thirty minute TV series back in
Speaker 2: the Prestige Television conversation and also I think this fits
Speaker 2: into stress teage TV. This is a stressful show.
Speaker 1: I mean the thirty minute prestige. First of all, back
Speaker 1: would imply that it existed. I'm not sure has there
Speaker 1: ever been thirty minutes? Are for comedy, right, yeah, comedy
Speaker 1: reflected stuff, and so I don't know that there's ever
Speaker 1: been a thirty minute thirty minute prestige.
Speaker 2: It's the Bear, I would say, made it a possibility.
Speaker 2: And that's why the Bear.
Speaker 1: The Bear was a fit you've been, That was a hoodwink,
Speaker 1: that was not That was just a drama that they
Speaker 1: did in thirty minutes. And then everybody brains broke because
Speaker 1: they were like, so it's a comedy. And so I
Speaker 1: guess what I'm saying is other than the Bear, Season one,
Speaker 1: can we think of an actual prestige thirty minute?
Speaker 2: Could the Studio be the first?
Speaker 1: Then it's the comedy though. Okay, so you think Good
Speaker 1: Place was a sitcom?
Speaker 2: You think the prestige has to be no comedy?
Speaker 1: I mean, like, I guess we to sound like the
Speaker 1: science fiction No. I guess we have to. I guess
Speaker 1: we have to. I guess we have to. Like, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's what is prestige. Prestige is like you know, what
Speaker 1: do you mean my Presige question.
Speaker 2: No one's ever answered it before. I think it's it's
Speaker 2: gonna be easy.
Speaker 1: So I always think of Prestige as like very ambitious,
Speaker 1: great acting, great writing, great directing, pushing boundaries, the type
Speaker 1: of show that you didn't think you'd ever see on television,
Speaker 1: but there it is. So yes, Madman, Deadwood, the Sopranos,
Speaker 1: Breaking Bad, better call Saul Succession.
Speaker 2: I'll give you one. I'll give you one that I
Speaker 2: think does count. Even though I am not as much
Speaker 2: of a fan of this show as everyone else. It
Speaker 2: is a comedy, but I think that it covers all
Speaker 2: of the things you just said about direction and boundary
Speaker 2: breaking and all of that. Fleabag was a show, and
Speaker 2: I think that pushes the boundaries of the way that
Speaker 2: the show uses time and the fourth wall and all
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. So maybe it's more that we
Speaker 2: are entering into a new age.
Speaker 1: You know what else? You know what else? And I
Speaker 1: hate it? Actually was it a half hour England? The
Speaker 1: original BBC Office the first two seasons was Prestige. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because that was that was like a seismic.
Speaker 2: Shift, culture change, a real.
Speaker 1: Culture changer, and that and that it melded comedy and
Speaker 1: drama and heartfelt. The motion, like you know, Ricky Gervay
Speaker 1: is huge piece of shit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but will won't.
Speaker 1: They in the in the BBC office is like as
Speaker 1: good as it gets.
Speaker 2: You couldn't believe how good it is, Like you just
Speaker 2: can't stop watching it. Also incredible Dwight Costing completely different
Speaker 2: vibe but like very creepy.
Speaker 1: And so I guess I guess I would say that
Speaker 1: I think that I think that what we're seeing with
Speaker 1: a Night of the Seven Kingdoms, with the studio a
Speaker 1: little bit and with Wonderment, is that there is a
Speaker 1: lane for kind of genre mash type half hour television programs. Okay,
Speaker 1: that that put character development as central to the execution
Speaker 1: of the of the storytelling. I like, it's not just
Speaker 1: about effects, it's not just about action, it's not just
Speaker 1: about like with the studio, the dedication to the Wanner
Speaker 1: in this kind of like cinematographical excellence. It's about it's
Speaker 1: about learning who the characters are. And in that sense, yes,
Speaker 1: I think that what we're seeing an opening of a
Speaker 1: lane here for particularly for marvel Ian did.
Speaker 2: A really interesting call out there for Entourage. But you know,
Speaker 2: I will say I was reading about it right, you know,
Speaker 2: because there's HBO at same minutes it's comedy drama. But
Speaker 2: I will say it was one of the first shows,
Speaker 2: it looks like, where people kind of started talking about
Speaker 2: prestige adjacent where you could make like a show that
Speaker 2: was essentially a higher quality than say like a broadcast sitcom,
Speaker 2: and kind of verging into that space.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: I have deep feelings on Entourage, but I think that's
Speaker 2: an interesting thing. I think it's something that's been paved
Speaker 2: the way throughout history, but it does seem like we're
Speaker 2: in a peak of it right now, probably also because
Speaker 2: of budget, so every Netflix show would love to be
Speaker 2: a thirty minute show that costs half as much money.
Speaker 2: Jason incredible poll here that tries VISLACKT three is now
Speaker 2: in as nearly as many properties as Stephen Strange, potentially
Speaker 2: even more crossovers than Tom Onlin Spider Man. So what
Speaker 2: do you see his role within the MCU being here?
Speaker 2: I think this is kind of a perfect ending for him,
Speaker 2: but obviously I would like to see him and Simon
Speaker 2: together again because that friendship is obviously so key to
Speaker 2: Simon's life. How do you feel about Trevor post from
Speaker 2: Iron Man three to Shangchi to hear.
Speaker 1: I think Trevor's got probably the most unique character arc
Speaker 1: in the MCU. And I think, as we said in
Speaker 1: the previous wonder Man episode, I was kind of I
Speaker 1: thought it was a good bit in Iron Man three,
Speaker 1: Like I thought it was a fun subversion of the
Speaker 1: terrorist kind of trope. And I could not have envisioned
Speaker 1: how much fun it would be to check back in
Speaker 1: with Trump.
Speaker 2: Agree.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing, Like, I am quite hopeful that
Speaker 1: we see more Trevor. I mean, certainly he's a fugitive
Speaker 1: from justice. Now. I don't know you. I don't know
Speaker 1: what you do with Like where do you put Trevor now?
Speaker 2: Like where you have to say?
Speaker 4: I love how much people in our discord love this show,
Speaker 4: because they love it so much that even though you
Speaker 4: could argue, I think that they're really trying to say,
Speaker 4: like this show is very standalone type show, you know.
Speaker 2: But there was somebody in our discord who was like, look,
Speaker 2: it's definitely gonna connect how about this? And I want
Speaker 2: to credit them because it's so good. Oh yeah, it
Speaker 2: was SJK, who's one of our biggest discord supporters and listeners.
Speaker 2: I think Josh Gad was Dormann to Battleworld. I love
Speaker 2: that people love this show so much that they are
Speaker 2: like head cannoning ways that it could connect. I do
Speaker 2: think that after the success and popularity and kind of
Speaker 2: like fan faveness, I definitely could see a Trevor Yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: kind of you know, Madison esque fan fave cameo before
Speaker 2: Secret Wars.
Speaker 1: Maybe I mean Trevor. I mean Trevor and Simon are
Speaker 1: are attached to the hip now because again both fugitives. Simon,
Speaker 1: like is an international movie star who just broke Trevor Slattery,
Speaker 1: world famous terrorist out of prison. They're gonna know it's him,
Speaker 1: They're gonna know it's both of them, and they can't
Speaker 1: like live openly now. So those two having adventures is
Speaker 1: something I would love to check back. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I agree. Also, I did just have a realization, so
Speaker 2: great questionnaire again So with ya ya and we know
Speaker 2: here that he's got the ionic powers. We hear that
Speaker 2: Department of Damage Control talking about how powerfully is we
Speaker 2: see how powerful is he breaks Trevor out. Does this
Speaker 2: change the trajectory of say, like a Captain Anthony Mackie's
Speaker 2: Captain America. I think this is a very interesting question
Speaker 2: because I do think that if I was in charge
Speaker 2: of the mc the end of this series really echoes
Speaker 2: where we leave Tony Stark at the end of the
Speaker 2: first Iron Man. He's internationally known, he is well recognized,
Speaker 2: he is protected, he has superpowers, he has a suit.
Speaker 2: I would if I was the Marvel Execs, I would
Speaker 2: be seeding and begging Yaya to be my next lead.
Speaker 2: So I think that could impact where we go with
Speaker 2: Captain America. But I also think that from the leaks
Speaker 2: we're reading, from what we're seeing from Doomsday, that also
Speaker 2: is about them wanting to refocus to Steve Rodgers. But
Speaker 2: I would love to see wonder Man and Sam Wilson
Speaker 2: together at some point, especially as a reunion after the
Speaker 2: iconic gay gaming episode of Black Mirror.
Speaker 1: Let's Go to We got some great questions from our discord.
Speaker 1: A row Hith from our discord asked, at the risk
Speaker 1: of being hyperbolic, this to me feels like the best
Speaker 1: MCU project, and if not the best around among the
Speaker 1: best of the MCU with and I completely agree. Never
Speaker 1: I have I seen a super project that just felt
Speaker 1: like real people living in a world populated with superheroes. Also,
Speaker 1: the relationship with Trevor Simon is easily one of the best.
Speaker 1: That's not a question. There's no questions here, but there's.
Speaker 2: Just no there's just people who love this. Just just
Speaker 2: say like everyone is loving it so much.
Speaker 1: Our Discord really loved it. Whack whack and the Discord
Speaker 1: I'm so in love with The show felt natural, lived
Speaker 1: in and every moment felt like it mattered, furthering emotional
Speaker 1: connections to these characters. And I think that's right. You know,
Speaker 1: like so much of this show was not about some
Speaker 1: massive secret mission or cosmic battle. It was just the guys.
Speaker 1: It was the feet of Clay thing that Stanley has
Speaker 1: been talking about.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, great way to put.
Speaker 1: It for seventy years. Like it is that it is
Speaker 1: a guy who's like, I don't know, you know where
Speaker 1: my rent is coming from. I'm struggling professionally and you know, personally,
Speaker 1: and also I have superpowers. That's like the Marvel formula.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm okay. Also, Jason, I got to ask you,
Speaker 2: there's so many amazing monologues in this show. I think
Speaker 2: mine is the Trevor to Simon one where he basically
Speaker 2: just tells him like, you know, that's not true. The
Speaker 2: real you isn't your condition. It's the sum of everything
Speaker 2: you've experience, the loss of joy, the sadness, wanting something
Speaker 2: so badly you could burst, hurting someone you care about,
Speaker 2: being hurt that by those you love. Jason, if you
Speaker 2: were going to do a monologue, if you were going
Speaker 2: in to read for wonder Man and you were going
Speaker 2: to do a monologue from wonder Man, which one would
Speaker 2: you be picking of?
Speaker 1: Oh? Wow, that's good. I mean I like I honestly
Speaker 1: every I would do a Vonkvath. Some I would do
Speaker 1: a yeah, something you could definely so demented in this movie.
Speaker 1: It's like, I watch Megalopolis. If you liked Vaughn in
Speaker 1: this movie, Yeah, watch Mega because it is seriously like
Speaker 1: a Francis Ford Coppola satire. It really is.
Speaker 2: Okay, Jason von Kovac has now you know, the movie
Speaker 2: was a massive success. Simon has somehow gotten himself back.
Speaker 2: This is my theory. This is what I would pitch
Speaker 2: for season two, right Simon. He von Kovac is like, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: now you have become wonder Man. So I want to
Speaker 2: make the meta movie or follow up TV series about
Speaker 2: your life as both the real Supero wonder Man and
Speaker 2: the actor who plays wonder Man. I think that would
Speaker 2: be incredible, But I've got to hear more of your
Speaker 2: von Kovac, Jason, so I'm gonna need you to pitch
Speaker 2: me what your follow up to this wonder Man movie
Speaker 2: would be in the voice of none other than the
Speaker 2: demented yet kind von Kovac, who I have to say,
Speaker 2: I was a big fan of the little moments of
Speaker 2: kindness they did give, like when somebody tries to kind
Speaker 2: of mock Simon about being upset and he was like, hey,
Speaker 2: calm down, you know. So he's like deranged but a
Speaker 2: little more humanist than I think the people that he
Speaker 2: is really based on. So anyway, Jason, pitch me wonder Man.
Speaker 2: You're a wonder Man follow up. But as von Kovac, I.
Speaker 1: Think we need a von Kovak documentary about the founding
Speaker 1: of the West Coast Avengers. Oh yes, that's kind of
Speaker 1: you know. That is you know, a like almost like
Speaker 1: a Grizzly Man type commentary from from von Kovac as
Speaker 1: he follows Simon Williams assembling the team that will be
Speaker 1: known as the West Coast Avengers, which I think should
Speaker 1: be the way they go at this point, because like
Speaker 1: your point about it, about it being very reminiscent of
Speaker 1: the way that Ironman one ends, I think is right,
Speaker 1: and Simon being kind of the most along with she
Speaker 1: Hulk right about being the most at this point notable
Speaker 1: West Coast superhero.
Speaker 2: That's a great call.
Speaker 1: It'd be cool to see. And he's ostensibly got some
Speaker 1: millions of dollars with which to fund this project, assuming
Speaker 1: that the government hasn't like seized his bank accounts, So true,
Speaker 1: he could put the team together.
Speaker 2: M hm. That feels like as well, guess who else
Speaker 2: is Hella Rich, Kate Bishop Hawkaye. She's so rich, her
Speaker 2: mum's in prison. I feel like those two together could
Speaker 2: really be living in that compound, protecting themselves. Maybe also,
Speaker 2: I'm seeing some kind of world where Simon maybe becomes
Speaker 2: a kind of figurehead for public superheroes. I'm wondering if
Speaker 2: that's where we're going again, replicating that Iron Man feeling,
Speaker 2: but maybe as more of an activist. Because also something
Speaker 2: and we talked about this a little bit in the
Speaker 2: first season the first chunk of episodes, but this really
Speaker 2: does start to establish some of the laws and layout
Speaker 2: that we're going to end up with for the X Men,
Speaker 2: like the Department of Damage Control here are essentially acting
Speaker 2: as if they are Ice. They are arresting people. They
Speaker 2: arrest Trevor. He doesn't have superpowers, but they arrest him.
Speaker 2: They put him in a superpowered people's prison because they
Speaker 2: need to fill it up, And that to me is
Speaker 2: very interesting. And I think that by allowing Simon and
Speaker 2: potentially Kate Bishop in the West Coast Avengers to have
Speaker 2: almost an isolated existence, they can stay as the kind
Speaker 2: of rebellion to this kind of oncoming swath of anti mutant,
Speaker 2: anti superhero legislations that I think we'll see keep popping
Speaker 2: up as Department of Damage Control grows.
Speaker 1: I love this reveal, basically confirmation that Josh gadd is
Speaker 1: still alive in Doorman, which we talked about yeah in
Speaker 1: our first episode. Incredible leading to Okay, so when does
Speaker 1: Ged come out? Number one? How long has it been?
Speaker 1: It's probably I'm guessing it's been no more than five years, right,
Speaker 1: it can't be.
Speaker 2: It can't be.
Speaker 1: It can't be longer than that. And it's got to
Speaker 1: be post the blip, right, it can't be before the blip.
Speaker 1: So it's got to be post blip and no more,
Speaker 1: no more than five years. And so my I have
Speaker 1: two questions. One, how do we get Gad back? Like
Speaker 1: when does Gad come out? And in what what context
Speaker 1: does Gad pop out? It would be really funny if
Speaker 1: like during some big battle during Tuesday, uh, like at
Speaker 1: the end of like endgame, when all the heroes are
Speaker 1: like charging the bad guys, Gad pops out of Doorman.
Speaker 1: And two does this create I could see like a
Speaker 1: subplot of of of wonder Man season two being that
Speaker 1: Doorman finds a sideline. It's a kind of like a
Speaker 1: health and wellness sideline, because God, there's a world in
Speaker 1: which Dad is not aged, right, he is not aged
Speaker 1: in five years, and he's impact.
Speaker 2: He's just been living in a chilled space essentially.
Speaker 1: So like what if you go, like you spend your
Speaker 1: every time you're not on set working, you could pay
Speaker 1: if you're like an actor working actor or someone who
Speaker 1: cares about your looks, you could pay Doorman to like whatever,
Speaker 1: spend even spend nights sleeping in Doorman, so that essentially
Speaker 1: time stops for you. And so over the course of
Speaker 1: say three years, if you're spending every name some of
Speaker 1: your downtime. Certain weeks inside Doorman, you've aged only a
Speaker 1: half to a third of the amount of a normal
Speaker 1: person who has lived outside of Doorman during that time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that, And also that kind of fits
Speaker 2: in with Andrew Guestgate the show, and I gave a
Speaker 2: really funny, insightful, kind of like kind of info dump
Speaker 2: where he said, Josh Gadd is still alive, so we
Speaker 2: were right, and if there's a season two, he will
Speaker 2: definitely get them out. And I do love that, and
Speaker 2: I also love your read because he said, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe Josh Gadd would even get doorman powers, so it
Speaker 2: would actually be hilarious if the normal doormann got to
Speaker 2: still be Doorman, but Josh Gadd was now like the
Speaker 2: celebrity wellness doorman. It's like, come and stay in Josh
Speaker 2: Gadd's is relaxing stomach palace or however you would you know,
Speaker 2: the Josh gad belly rehab or whatever it is. So yeah,
Speaker 2: that's very interesting. Also, there was a great interview in
Speaker 2: Entertainment Weekly that dropped when the show dropped by Sydney
Speaker 2: Box Bahm, who's another one of my entertainment journalists colleagues,
Speaker 2: and in that there is actually like a different ending
Speaker 2: for the show where it was going to be this
Speaker 2: kind of like they performed Black Boxtit are together, They're
Speaker 2: performing Hamlet, and they kind of like levitated off the
Speaker 2: floor and it was like this creative moment, but they
Speaker 2: decided to go for the big emotional ending where it's
Speaker 2: kind of about these men choosing to put someone else
Speaker 2: in front of each other for the first time. And
Speaker 2: I just think that works so well and is so delightful,
Speaker 2: and I think it sounds like it was something that
Speaker 2: really moved both like Yah Yah and Ben Kingsley because
Speaker 2: it was just all about like sacrifice and friendship. And
Speaker 2: I love that because I don't think you get a
Speaker 2: lot of stories about like the power of male friendship
Speaker 2: and the importance of like sacrificing yourself and also just
Speaker 2: like men crying. There's a lot of crying in this show,
Speaker 2: and I love it, especially the conversation that Simon and
Speaker 2: Anna then have outside before the award when Simon's just
Speaker 2: like I fucked that, like it's done, you know, and
Speaker 2: he wants to give up. I just feel like we've
Speaker 2: all been there, and I love that he gets to
Speaker 2: have that moment of coming out of that and proving himself.
Speaker 1: Wonder Man's Season two, Where does it go? What is
Speaker 1: your pitch? Where do you think happens?
Speaker 2: Yes, so I do. Yeah, my pitch would be kind
Speaker 2: of my idea that I had. I think what they
Speaker 2: should do is have von Kovac make the second season
Speaker 2: as a documentary about Simon being both an actor and
Speaker 2: a superhero. I think you can have a lot of
Speaker 2: fun there both obviously Andrew Guess, Daniela su Kreten, they
Speaker 2: really just Daniel Karen. They really want to have this
Speaker 2: show come back and maybe potentially, you know, see these
Speaker 2: guys in the movie. Kingsley basically said, like anything could happen,
Speaker 2: And I think that for Yaya, he said, the biggest
Speaker 2: thing he's interested in is like Simon's whole life, He's
Speaker 2: wanted this stardom, He's wanted this fame, he's wanted to act,
Speaker 2: and now he's got it. Like what happens, Like how
Speaker 2: does that change for him? You know? Is he gonna
Speaker 2: be Okay? So I'm very interested. I would love to
Speaker 2: see the two of them again. And I just think
Speaker 2: this is such an inventive and lovely show. Oh that
Speaker 2: ironically you know, we talked a lot about what does
Speaker 2: it mean to be a Marvel spotlight show. Well, I
Speaker 2: think Marvel now has the answer, like show this say
Speaker 2: to people, hey, watch wonder Man and then come to
Speaker 2: us with your wonder Man. We don't mean replicate wonder Man,
Speaker 2: we mean come to us with your unique take that
Speaker 2: was shaped by your life and the people who you
Speaker 2: want to you know, work with alongside and see if
Speaker 2: you can do something like this, because I do think
Speaker 2: this is the first time that we've gotten something from
Speaker 2: Marvel that DC really has never done in the same way. Now,
Speaker 2: DC did have a half an hour sitcom Powerless that
Speaker 2: was really funny, but the pilot original pilot was great,
Speaker 2: very biting. It turned into more of a standard sitcom
Speaker 2: that was kind of a damage control riff in its
Speaker 2: own way, but again very classic sitcom, a kind of
Speaker 2: like half an hour slice of life, adult existential comedy.
Speaker 2: Like neither of these people have done this in live action,
Speaker 2: and I think it is finally giving Marvel a little
Speaker 2: bit of an edge on DC, especially when we look
Speaker 2: at the TV offerings from James Gunn, which we love
Speaker 2: Creature Commandos, Piece May, but they're very standard comedy shows
Speaker 2: like they are very much about the laughs, same with Harlequin.
Speaker 2: If Marvel can cement this tone and maybe have Destin
Speaker 2: and Andrew Guest as sort of like a creative council
Speaker 2: bringing in new underrepresented under you know, seeing filmmakers and
Speaker 2: TV makers to make this into kind of like a
Speaker 2: stable for new Marvel talent. They could really build themselves
Speaker 2: up into a place where in five years and Secret
Speaker 2: Wars is done, they are ready to come out with
Speaker 2: something entirely new that can kind of shape the game.
Speaker 1: I would lovely agree. I think that there's a world
Speaker 1: where they could like high browse c w it.
Speaker 2: You know the way exactly exactly, and create.
Speaker 1: This kind of TV universe that can easily be ported
Speaker 1: into movies when time is right, I'll go. I have
Speaker 1: another thought, which is, tell me if one day there
Speaker 1: is a DC Marvel movie crossover mm hmmm, which it
Speaker 1: feels like the final bullet to be fired at the
Speaker 1: end of like all of the various phases DC phases
Speaker 1: and Marvel phases, Like it feels like at some point
Speaker 1: the money might be right and the deal might be
Speaker 1: right that they would decide to do it. If so,
Speaker 1: and there's been How many of these in comics? How
Speaker 1: many times have you see it?
Speaker 2: So, I mean so many, Like it's.
Speaker 1: Probably happened like five or six or seven times, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you include like Amaltham and the different ones
Speaker 2: where they come together or they're reimagine, there's different characters
Speaker 2: like and obviously the famous ones You're you know, You're Jlien,
Speaker 2: Avengers and stuff. So yeah, it's it's definitely got a
Speaker 2: lot of precedent, and it's what the people.
Speaker 1: Want when and if they do do it. The characters,
Speaker 1: the actors who play characters in both universes should continue
Speaker 1: to play both characters.
Speaker 3: For instance, for instance, I would lot Go Bridge, who
Speaker 3: please on Kovac in wonder Man, should also play Vassil
Speaker 3: Girkos from Supermans.
Speaker 2: Excuse me, I need to see that. Also, wouldn't like
Speaker 2: how funny would it be to see to him playing
Speaker 2: both of those roles on screen? Not just that? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: like I want to see wonder Man and I also
Speaker 2: want to see Black Manta like on this is That's
Speaker 2: why this is what I agree, Jason. I love that take,
Speaker 2: and I think that in the Metas space that we're in,
Speaker 2: especially if we're going to play the obvious inevitable cord
Speaker 2: of Doom showing up and Captain America crying and being
Speaker 2: lance Tony. Then like, come on, let's have fun with it.
Speaker 2: Let's let's have Thanos and Cable like, let's do all
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: Yes, let's be silly, Let's be silly. This what a
Speaker 1: wonderful show. I'm really excited for a season two, if
Speaker 1: indeed it does happen. I'm excited for more Marvel spotlights.
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem as if they have any in the offing,
Speaker 1: but I think the success, certainly the critical success of
Speaker 1: a wonder Man, is going to help put Marvel back
Speaker 1: on the forward foot with regards to launching TV and
Speaker 1: giving them a map they can follow to uh to
Speaker 1: put some of these characters out there, and I hope
Speaker 1: they follow it because what a triumph this was.
Speaker 2: It was a total triumph. And totally agreed Jason. I
Speaker 2: also want to shout out, it's the woman who should
Speaker 2: be in charge of the MCU. Let her be in charge. Guys,
Speaker 2: we were all happy to see it. Imman Villani, Miss
Speaker 2: Marvel herself did review wonder Man. If you didn't believe
Speaker 2: me and Jason that it was good, she gave it
Speaker 2: four and a half stars, and she said watch wonder Man.
Speaker 2: And she wrote an incredibly good two page long letterbox
Speaker 2: of you, including shouting out those great needle drops like
Speaker 2: we got the you know, Madonna like a prayer that
Speaker 2: was so fun, The Superman by the Commodores, I Feel
Speaker 2: for You by sha Ka Khan like and it was Yeah.
Speaker 2: So if you don't believe us, believe in mam Villani
Speaker 2: because we love her and I can't wait her and
Speaker 2: Simon Williams like his kind of awkward insecurity matching with
Speaker 2: her fandom is just going to be so fun to see.
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Extra Division, we're diving into
Speaker 1: the biggest news of the week. That's it for this episode.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Whoo x ray Vision is hosted by
Speaker 1: Jason Concepcion and Rosie Knight and is a production of
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 2: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wag.
Speaker 1: Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
Speaker 1: songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and Heidi,
Speaker 2: our discord moderator,