Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a cult,
Speaker 1: are a high control group.
Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.
Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com.
Speaker 3: Trust me.
Speaker 2: Trust Me. I'm like a swat person. I've never lied
Speaker 2: to you, I've never had a live about If you
Speaker 2: think that one person has all the answers, don't welcome
Speaker 2: to trust Me. The podcast about cults, Extreme belief and
Speaker 2: Manipulation from two mental health lovers who've actually experienced it.
Speaker 2: I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth, and
Speaker 2: today our guest is a friend we'll call Anne, who's
Speaker 2: going to talk to us about the connection between psychosis
Speaker 2: and cults. We'll discuss the mental changes she began experiencing
Speaker 2: when her episode started, the delusions that grew stronger and
Speaker 2: felt more and more true, how she felt like she
Speaker 2: was communicating directly with spirits, and the paranoia that grew
Speaker 2: inside her, not unlike what many cult leaders seem to experience.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about how it seems like some cult leaders
Speaker 1: must be in the middle of a psychotic break, unbeknownst
Speaker 1: to their followers or even themselves, how psychiatric intervention with
Speaker 1: a caring mental health professional was what eventually pulled her
Speaker 1: out of it, and the parallels between coming out of
Speaker 1: a paranoid delusion and coming out of a cult belief,
Speaker 1: and why it can be wise not to directly attack
Speaker 1: the belief.
Speaker 3: We always come back to that.
Speaker 4: I always come back to that.
Speaker 2: This one brings up an interesting question that comes up
Speaker 2: all the time about cult leaders and how much they
Speaker 2: are believing what they're doing. And I want to be clear,
Speaker 2: we're not saying that cult leaders aren't responsible for their actions.
Speaker 2: Most of them probably know exactly what they're doing, but
Speaker 2: there seems to be a small percentage of people who
Speaker 2: literally had a hallucination, yeah, and continue to have hallucinations.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: It actually applies to my cultiest thing in the week.
Speaker 1: I was talking to Anne and she was kind of
Speaker 1: telling me about this episode that she had and how
Speaker 1: before it, and she'll get into it in the episode,
Speaker 1: but how before it she really had no interest in
Speaker 1: spirituality whatsoever. And it drew the parallel to me of
Speaker 1: my cult leader, the two by two infamous William Irvine
Speaker 1: that I've always had really negative feelings about. He was
Speaker 1: so mean, he started this cult and ruined four generations
Speaker 1: of my family and like blah blah, blah blah. But
Speaker 1: then I read a little bit more about him, and
Speaker 1: he basically was turning thirty, had a depressive episode where
Speaker 1: he considered taking his life, and then a week later
Speaker 1: found a gospel and then is doing like bicycle missions
Speaker 1: to Scotland, And I was like, oh, I think he
Speaker 1: had an episode, and he ended up getting kicked out
Speaker 1: of the very group he started, died ranting and raving
Speaker 1: in India like this on a street corner with no
Speaker 1: mental health given to him, and kind of the religion
Speaker 1: taken over by people who used it for yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so interesting, Like maybe some of them the
Speaker 2: original leader was just literally.
Speaker 1: Yeah in an episode, maybe you know. So it really
Speaker 1: reframed it for me. Why is it when somebody goes
Speaker 1: into these episodes, is it usually religion that pops into
Speaker 1: their mind? And I think I have an answer, But
Speaker 1: y'all can come to your own conclusions and we can
Speaker 1: discuss at the end.
Speaker 4: Well, I have thoughts on that.
Speaker 3: But let's wait till the end. Let's wait till the end.
Speaker 4: Would you like to hear my cultiest thing?
Speaker 1: No, no, just kidding. What's your culdiest thing of the week.
Speaker 2: Well, obviously this is election week, so so everything is
Speaker 2: coldly on the internet right now. But all of that aside,
Speaker 2: I saw this video on TikTok, so I've been unfortunately
Speaker 2: going to the dark side and spending a little bit
Speaker 2: more time on TikTok and oh turning. It's killing my
Speaker 2: brains out, as I can feel it.
Speaker 1: Every time I go on TikTok, I have like five
Speaker 1: new eating disorders. I'm like, I have to be on
Speaker 1: the staremaster for forty five minutes a day.
Speaker 3: Why was that?
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Well, I saw this video that had
Speaker 2: gone super viral of a girl and I actually posted
Speaker 2: a video about it on.
Speaker 4: My own TikTok.
Speaker 2: Whatever, so I'll probably be repeating myself if you follow
Speaker 2: me there, but a video of a girl talking to
Speaker 2: an AI on her iPad and having a conversation and
Speaker 2: it sounds very human coming out of the iPad and
Speaker 2: they're talking about reality, having like sort of a philosophical conversation.
Speaker 2: And the AI is saying stuff that's like not that impressive,
Speaker 2: Like it's just like a normal back and forth conversation
Speaker 2: you'd have with someone about, you know, ideas about what
Speaker 2: reality is. She started talking about the law of attraction
Speaker 2: and then the AI started responding to her and really
Speaker 2: affirming this idea that this is a true scientific law
Speaker 2: and whatever you believe about that. It was really interesting
Speaker 2: to watch because she was so transfixed with what the
Speaker 2: AI was saying to her, as though it was this
Speaker 2: sort of like otherworldly wisdom, when in reality, ais are
Speaker 2: synthesizing human ideas and things that humans have written, and
Speaker 2: as we know, humans often get it oh, very very
Speaker 2: wrong totally.
Speaker 1: And if you were to ask disprove the law of
Speaker 1: attraction to me, it would have had an equally interesting conversation.
Speaker 1: I've found.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it reflects back whatever you are asking it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But as we discussed with former guests on the podcast,
Speaker 1: people have lost the plot on how it's working. It is,
Speaker 1: remember the tech woman we interviewed, like it is working
Speaker 1: beyond human knowledge a bit, but it is also skewed
Speaker 1: to what you're asking about. But in the same breath,
Speaker 1: it has taught me that time isn't real because of gravity.
Speaker 1: And now I understand physics like physics and concepts in
Speaker 1: a way that my brain should absolutely never understand because
Speaker 1: I ask it to explain things to me, like I'm
Speaker 1: in the movie Clueless.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's can be really good at simplifying complex ideas,
Speaker 2: but I think it can also.
Speaker 4: I mean, just a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2: Ago, I asked it to find me examples of scenes
Speaker 2: in movies, and three of them were like movies I
Speaker 2: had seen, and I was like, that never happened in
Speaker 2: that movie, and it was like.
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, I guess you're right.
Speaker 1: I asked it to tell me what was going on
Speaker 1: with P Diddy and it was like P Diddy is
Speaker 1: an award winning musician. I was like, no, I mean
Speaker 1: right now, and then I was like, oh, sorry, yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, as we discussed in that episode, it can
Speaker 2: be a tool for amazing things and also for really
Speaker 2: bad things. And my bigger takeaway was less like it's
Speaker 2: talking about the law of attraction, which I personally, which
Speaker 2: there's no evidence for.
Speaker 4: My bigger takeaway is.
Speaker 2: Sure world for it, all the anecdotal, all the anecdotal
Speaker 2: real evidence, But it was more how she seemed to
Speaker 2: be she seemed to be elevating the AI to a
Speaker 2: level beyond the higher power. Yes, exactly, And it just
Speaker 2: was a glimpse for me into you know, as I
Speaker 2: say in my own video, like we as humans are
Speaker 2: so drawn to people who have appear to have some
Speaker 2: kind of authority or confidence. Right, who's going to seem
Speaker 2: to have more authority than a robot that can read
Speaker 2: everything that's ever been written? And that is very dangerous
Speaker 2: depending on who's programming it, and depending on how safeguards
Speaker 2: are or are not put in place in whatever you're using.
Speaker 2: So I'm just like, we are going to have a
Speaker 2: cult leaders I think next year, that's my prediction.
Speaker 1: And if you want to hear more about us talking
Speaker 1: about this, we did do an episode with Sarah Teitelman
Speaker 1: called The Culty Elements of Technology, So jump back there
Speaker 1: and listen to that if this is something that you're
Speaker 1: interested in, indeed, But for now, shall we talk to Anne.
Speaker 3: Let's do it.
Speaker 2: Welcome Anne to trust me. So great to be here,
Speaker 2: so great to be with you.
Speaker 4: In real life.
Speaker 2: We have you here today to talk about something we
Speaker 2: have not done an episode on yet, and I think
Speaker 2: will be very fascinating for listeners and for me because
Speaker 2: it's a topic I know nothing about, which is psychotic
Speaker 2: episodes and how they connect to people who start cults.
Speaker 2: Can you start us off by telling us about who
Speaker 2: you were before you had your first episode of psychosis?
Speaker 2: What was your life like? Did you have any religious beliefs?
Speaker 1: Tell us about what were your interests?
Speaker 3: My interests, well, I was always very artistic and creative,
Speaker 3: so throughout my teenage years. Well, my first episode was
Speaker 3: in two thousand and three when I was eighteen years old,
Speaker 3: and before having that episode, I was very involved in
Speaker 3: music and art, and I played sports, and I was
Speaker 3: raised Jewish. I had about Mitzvah, but I didn't have
Speaker 3: any real spiritual or religious understanding underpinnings, no real concept
Speaker 3: of God. Actually, if anything, I didn't believe that there
Speaker 3: was a greater force because I lost my father suddenly
Speaker 3: when I was seven. So I remember this moment of
Speaker 3: getting that news where I was like I sort of
Speaker 3: looked up at the sky and I was like, wow,
Speaker 3: we really are alone. So I would say, if anything,
Speaker 3: I did not believe in invisible forces and no real
Speaker 3: curiosity about absolutely not. I was more curious about what
Speaker 3: the liner notes said on the new nine Inch Nails record,
Speaker 3: like where I was and what.
Speaker 2: Were the first signs that something was kind of changing
Speaker 2: for you internally?
Speaker 3: I took a trip with my family, and this had
Speaker 3: been influenced by some prescription medications that I was using
Speaker 3: that were not prescribed to me, and I started to
Speaker 3: have what is referred to clinically as a hypomanic episode.
Speaker 3: So I started sort of operating on heightened awareness and
Speaker 3: sleeping less. I dropped a lot of weight, and I
Speaker 3: started connecting dots between things that weren't necessarily there.
Speaker 2: And is that idea? Is that what ideas of reference
Speaker 2: is or what is idea?
Speaker 3: I think it is the start of ideas of reference.
Speaker 3: And I'm just you know, researching all of this myself.
Speaker 3: There's ideas of reference and then their delusions of reference
Speaker 3: and illusions are sort of like the full blown enchilada,
Speaker 3: Like I think I'm Jesus Christ because X, Y and
Speaker 3: Z connect in my life. I started to at that time,
Speaker 3: in two thousand and three, believe that I was going
Speaker 3: to be a figurehead of a movement to almost a
Speaker 3: feminist movement to liberate media from the patriarchy. And like
Speaker 3: old old men in charge. And I grew up in
Speaker 3: Los Angeles, so I grew up literally around all of
Speaker 3: the people that were in charge. These were not weird figures.
Speaker 3: These were my best friend's dads. So it was the
Speaker 3: concept that what was called past the torch and I
Speaker 3: called it PT.
Speaker 1: So past the torch is a concept that is yours.
Speaker 3: Past the torch is my concept. I changed my friend's surname,
Speaker 3: change your friend's name. I changed my friends their name
Speaker 3: to ptpt oh, and it was past the torch from
Speaker 3: the older generation to the new generation, and I would
Speaker 3: be the figurehead. But I figured all my friends would
Speaker 3: be in tow and they would support me.
Speaker 2: And was there something in your environment do you think
Speaker 2: that led you to have that be the thing that
Speaker 2: your brain focused on.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was working in the music industry at the time,
Speaker 3: and I had like a pretty prominent an R position
Speaker 3: at a large record label at eighteen. Yeah, and again,
Speaker 3: around the people who are running the business. It wasn't
Speaker 3: some far fetched person I was seeing through my television.
Speaker 3: It was who I was seeing when I showed up
Speaker 3: at work. And I thought mostly in the music industry,
Speaker 3: which I feel is the first media industry that got
Speaker 3: hit with digital and technological transformation that these CEOs and
Speaker 3: presidents and shareholders of record labels really were not willing
Speaker 3: to adapt to technology. They tried all sorts of things
Speaker 3: drm rights management on CDs, protections. They couldn't get with
Speaker 3: the times in the way that people were consuming music,
Speaker 3: especially teenagers people my age. I mean, I was on
Speaker 3: Napster all day long.
Speaker 2: And that's a reasonable like and reasonable to be like,
Speaker 2: these guys need to get with the like and the
Speaker 2: future is female.
Speaker 1: You were like twenty years ahead, but what else is new?
Speaker 1: And as a legend, and I'm wondering, like, when did
Speaker 1: the kind of religious inkling enter the picture? Or higher
Speaker 1: power inkling?
Speaker 3: Shall we say? So? This starts in the invisible I
Speaker 3: was believing that spirits were jumping bodies and that there
Speaker 3: were certain senior spirits that were guiding me, and that
Speaker 3: there were good spirits and evil spirits, which I feel
Speaker 3: is very religious.
Speaker 2: And did those ideas just kind of start entering your
Speaker 2: mind just like a thought would occur to you and
Speaker 2: you'd be like, yes, I believe that thought.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, it just felt true.
Speaker 6: Yes, And I mean I know we spoke a little
Speaker 6: bit before we started recording. There were some thoughts that
Speaker 6: didn't immediately feel true, and it felt like your brain
Speaker 6: almost had to like slowly coerce.
Speaker 2: You and to believing them, like, yeah, what were those
Speaker 2: talk about?
Speaker 3: That? Well, there was an awareness that because of my ego,
Speaker 3: it was going to be hard for me to accept
Speaker 3: my role as the center of the universe and the
Speaker 3: Lord pretty much. I mean, I didn't call it the Lord.
Speaker 3: I didn't call it the Lord. It was like past
Speaker 3: the Torch. And I was the leader of that movement.
Speaker 3: And then I was spiritually bound to a girl who
Speaker 3: I was in drama camp with when I was thirteen,
Speaker 3: and she was a Goth and I thought she was amazing.
Speaker 3: And we had done the Whiz together at this drama
Speaker 3: camp at Graystone Mansion, and she played Evilan and I
Speaker 3: played the Lion. And I remember, I don't know how
Speaker 3: I got the idea of her, but I remember, you know,
Speaker 3: zoom forward five years. I'm in my den. I'm manic now,
Speaker 3: not hypomanic, like manic and rolling into psychosis at this point,
Speaker 3: and I pulled the VHS down, I put it in,
Speaker 3: and I thought that her spirit left the television and
Speaker 3: came into my house. Oh wow, And I saw lights flickering,
Speaker 3: and that was sort of the beginning of like, okay,
Speaker 3: I need to be hyper vigilant about where she's guiding me.
Speaker 3: And that was sort of so it wasn't it was
Speaker 3: about romance more than it was oh interesting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that like.
Speaker 2: From totally normal nowhere thoughts to like I'm talking to
Speaker 2: spirits and maybe I'm God.
Speaker 4: Like how long was that process?
Speaker 3: I think it started in like June, in the beginning
Speaker 3: of June of twenty twenty three, and I was fifty
Speaker 3: one fifty by the end of August, so there was
Speaker 3: like a three month steady esc and yeah, then by
Speaker 3: the end of August I was in the hospital. But
Speaker 3: even with meds, this was such a powerful delusion that
Speaker 3: even with psychiatric intervention, I was still pretty high up
Speaker 3: there for another four months and two different institutions.
Speaker 2: Oh wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So are you able to describe the difference between a
Speaker 2: manic episode and a psychotic episode. I'm assuming there's some
Speaker 2: overlaps sometimes.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, I'll say, what I'm
Speaker 3: saying is not as vetted as whatever chat GPT would say,
Speaker 3: and I don't read a lot. I think a lot
Speaker 3: but like for me, when I think about manic episodes,
Speaker 3: they just seem a little easier to come by, so
Speaker 3: to speak. Some people say they're triggered with methamphetamine use.
Speaker 3: Some people say their you know mom is bipolar, went
Speaker 3: off or meds, went on a shopping spree, went on
Speaker 3: a sexcapage, cheated on her husband. Maybe easier to spot, too,
Speaker 3: easier to spot exactly.
Speaker 2: Someone's like high energy, right and like probably talking really
Speaker 2: fast and engaging in a lot of like unusual behaviors
Speaker 2: for them, maybe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, or excessive excessive behaviors exactly. Whereas with psychosis it
Speaker 3: has many different flavors. I think is a wider it's
Speaker 3: more of a catch all. And what we were discussing
Speaker 3: a little bit before is that somebody can be psychotic
Speaker 3: and you would have no idea.
Speaker 2: And that and that is a period of losing touch
Speaker 2: with reality that can cause I'm just reading this from
Speaker 2: Google hallucinations, you're so smart.
Speaker 4: And confused thoughts.
Speaker 2: So that's more of like you are believing in a
Speaker 2: reality that is detached from the reality.
Speaker 3: Reality exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: And to also just read from the Internet ideas of reference.
Speaker 2: This is how the Internet describes it. It's a type
Speaker 2: because I hadn't heard this term before, A type of
Speaker 2: delusion that occurs when someone believes that ordinary events or
Speaker 2: coincidences have a strong personal significance. People with IRS might
Speaker 2: may interpret neutral stimulis such as gestures, comments, or looks
Speaker 2: as being directed at them. It can be a common
Speaker 2: symptom of psychosis and can be observed in up to
Speaker 2: seventy percent of patients with recent onset schizophrenia. So would
Speaker 2: that be more of like the seeing signs and everything
Speaker 2: everything's connected? Yes?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, And so I think where they overlap is
Speaker 3: when your manic you can make connect, you can think
Speaker 3: really quickly, your thought life is expedited. But I think
Speaker 3: there's more genius in psychosis in terms of linking things
Speaker 3: together that aren't necessarily linked, and developing a consistent narrative
Speaker 3: and more attention to that narrative.
Speaker 1: And truly believing it, which makes you so much more convincing, convicted,
Speaker 1: you know, like you're an not. We fall into this
Speaker 1: question so many times on this podcast, as this leader
Speaker 1: malicious or do.
Speaker 3: They believe it? Or do they believe it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And if you actually believe it, you are probably more
Speaker 1: likely to have way more effects on followers.
Speaker 2: Some we don't associate past are probably really good at
Speaker 2: emulating that conviction. But yeah, I mean, like if somebody
Speaker 2: really believes something, you're going to feel that it's wild. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean did you have inklings about follow like how
Speaker 2: you were going to have followers?
Speaker 1: Well, she had to pass the torch someone, If I.
Speaker 3: Had to pass the torch, it was going to be
Speaker 3: passed to me. Just see. I don't know if I
Speaker 3: saw it as followers. Necessarily, it was a journey I
Speaker 3: was on and I had I had I had somebody
Speaker 3: very close to me die tragically a year before, and
Speaker 3: so it had a lot to do with my own
Speaker 3: personal romantic arc. So it was less, it was less
Speaker 3: typically religious followers. But tapping back on what Megan said,
Speaker 3: I do think if a cult leader or a cult
Speaker 3: figure is psychotic and convinced of these delusions, that is
Speaker 3: that's what you're facing. I think. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, so many of the leaders, the cult leaders
Speaker 2: that we have talked about on this podcast, their origin
Speaker 2: story is that they had a vision.
Speaker 4: And I'm sure.
Speaker 2: In many of those cases the vision was totally made up,
Speaker 2: but in other cases it literally happened in a psychiatric hospital,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Like out in nature, because it was not nine hundred
Speaker 1: years ago, you know, right right, Yeah, I just didn't
Speaker 1: have words for it then. And then if they have
Speaker 1: these ideas of reference, their brain is moving so much
Speaker 1: more quickly than everyone else's. They're making connections that no
Speaker 1: one else's and we're like, whoa, you're on in a
Speaker 1: different dimension, like you're onto something.
Speaker 3: Take me with you, Take me with you. Teach me
Speaker 3: about my life through what you see in yours.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how did people react to you when you were
Speaker 2: in it?
Speaker 3: Well, I was very There was very much those who
Speaker 3: are with me and those who are against me, so anytime.
Speaker 3: And you find this if you research people who have
Speaker 3: these episodes and people in colts who Jim Jones saying, oh,
Speaker 3: they're out to attack us, like creating a real enemy,
Speaker 3: a real threat. But if anybody disagreed with what I
Speaker 3: was saying, they were banished from my inner circle. If
Speaker 3: somebody supported it, then they were going to rise to
Speaker 3: rule the universe with me. Who supported it? Well, people
Speaker 3: pretended to, That's the thing. They had to, like pretend.
Speaker 3: My younger sister, bless her, she was only fifteen at
Speaker 3: the time and just suited to agree with me, and
Speaker 3: she was the one that walked me into the fifty
Speaker 3: one to fifty. Wow. How she convinced me, I don't know.
Speaker 3: She just like agreed with me. She knew that because
Speaker 3: my mom was the enemy. She knew that if my
Speaker 3: mom drove the car, I would not get into it.
Speaker 3: She said, We're going to get a taxi cab and
Speaker 3: I'm going to hold her hand and walk her in.
Speaker 3: And it's wild because I felt safe with my little sister.
Speaker 3: My delusion just shaped to the hospital. So I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is part of the initiation, and hospital quote unquote
Speaker 3: means something else entirely. So you better watch the eyeballs
Speaker 3: around you because they're going to be people with you
Speaker 3: and people against you, and guides. And I wouldn't say demons,
Speaker 3: but detractors.
Speaker 1: Maybe I think you you You mentioned Devil Collective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my own horror filmmaker collect Fatal Collective.
Speaker 4: This is our arrivals Devil Collective.
Speaker 2: Now go on.
Speaker 3: I had Devil Collective. So there was an idea that
Speaker 3: my body was measurable, that it was somehow radioactive and
Speaker 3: connected to satellites, and that because my body was measurable,
Speaker 3: any infringement, any negative, any naysayer, anybody who had ever
Speaker 3: hurt me. It was, it was measured, and all of
Speaker 3: those combined measurements marked specific people and they were the
Speaker 3: Devil Collective. Wow, and my body had been collecting that data.
Speaker 1: I mean, and this is a person who has never
Speaker 1: thought about religion in their life, could have less and
Speaker 1: now you have a Devil Collective. And I will just
Speaker 1: say I would have joined it. I would have been
Speaker 1: past the torch.
Speaker 3: I would would I have not.
Speaker 1: I would have joined the fun pet for sure.
Speaker 3: Done.
Speaker 1: And I know that you had at least one friend
Speaker 1: who was like, I kind of believe you.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I had this friend Taylor, who's still my friend.
Speaker 3: He's the best. He when he retells the experience, and
Speaker 3: of course it was like twenty one years ago, but
Speaker 3: he says, I kind of believe you, Like I got
Speaker 3: it a lot. We were gone to the moon totally
Speaker 3: and tell your mom took your car keys.
Speaker 1: But I do just want to touch on that fact
Speaker 1: that this happened to Anne after a depth of somebody,
Speaker 1: which is so often how we see people. It's when
Speaker 1: people join the cult, and it's almost like she's joining
Speaker 1: her own. Her brain created the cult for her to
Speaker 1: join to escape the pain of losing this very important person.
Speaker 2: That's interesting, I was going to say, Also, it feels
Speaker 2: like the episode is mimicking cults in that it's creating
Speaker 2: this extremely us versus them black and white, like good
Speaker 2: team or bad team type of thinking, which is like
Speaker 2: a hallmark of Colts. But it's just all inside your brain.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And dividing good good from evil, I would say,
Speaker 3: is good from evil is a pervasive theme. And I said,
Speaker 3: like a year out of this thing, and not to brag,
Speaker 3: but many do not come out of these like it's
Speaker 3: you know, end. Not to brag, but psychiatrists over the
Speaker 3: years have told me, I've never heard of an episode
Speaker 3: that lasted that long and had somebody return fully cognitive,
Speaker 3: fully functional, fully operative. It definitely protects from pain, and
Speaker 3: I think death is the pain of grief of that
Speaker 3: is inextinguishable. So I can definitely to make his point
Speaker 3: see that being a huge, huge piece of the puzzle
Speaker 3: and a huge part of the belief in spirit, because
Speaker 3: that was, you know, the spirit of this person who
Speaker 3: was so important to me, was one of my guides
Speaker 3: when I was in this episode.
Speaker 4: It's like your brain was trying to protect you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So a year out of this and I thought about
Speaker 3: it a lot. Like what I'm also, I stay very busy,
Speaker 3: so it was easy for me not to think about
Speaker 3: it a lot, but I did think about it, and
Speaker 3: I was absolutely convinced that every religious figure in history
Speaker 3: was having an episode. And there just wasn't a psychiatric industry.
Speaker 3: There wasn't psychology around it. There weren't hospitals, psych wars.
Speaker 3: But they came out and they said, look that tree
Speaker 3: was talking to me Bush. I'm gonna tell you what
Speaker 3: that tree was saying, right, And now we're all like
Speaker 3: really believing that stuff. But what was that?
Speaker 2: But I mean, we still very much in modern society too,
Speaker 2: even with some of this now acquired knowledge about psychiatry.
Speaker 2: So many people are saying that they're seeing things and
Speaker 2: sounding very much like they just are having an episode.
Speaker 4: But they still acquire these followers.
Speaker 2: They sound very convincing, And I wonder if I wonder
Speaker 2: if it's that like you can have an episode but
Speaker 2: like not be power hungry, so it's more just like
Speaker 2: you're having an episode and it's more private. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: isolated versus someone who's having an episode, and then they
Speaker 2: have these other qualities like the need for power, the
Speaker 2: desire to control. Like I wonder because I have to
Speaker 2: imagine most people who do have psychotic breaks like aren't
Speaker 2: aren't acquiring like amassing like large followings?
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, it's like there's this triangle of things
Speaker 1: that need to be there for them to then go into.
Speaker 1: And now everyone follow me and it is just worth
Speaker 1: noting that, you know, and the days of or it
Speaker 1: would be like a man would come back and be
Speaker 1: like I just got this message from angels, and everybody'd
Speaker 1: be like, dope, write it down, let's keep it forever.
Speaker 1: And then a woman would be like me too, and
Speaker 1: they'd big burners.
Speaker 3: She's a weg.
Speaker 2: It's like, really, yeah.
Speaker 3: This is what the town square is for. Yeah, exactly exactly?
Speaker 1: Did time, like your sense of time changed? Did you
Speaker 1: feel like you were destined? Like like what was that
Speaker 1: like like predestined?
Speaker 3: Well, I want to tap back really quickly on why
Speaker 3: I didn't amass a following. I don't have narcissistic qualities
Speaker 3: like that. I'm more on the codependent side. I am
Speaker 3: usually attracted to more narcissistic leaders and uh, interesting. So
Speaker 3: I think with if you don't have that sort of
Speaker 3: narcissism and lack of empathy in terms of harming other people,
Speaker 3: I don't think you a mass of following right or carelessness.
Speaker 3: It's not even a desire to harm, it's just a
Speaker 3: simple carelessness. Yeah. But what if people.
Speaker 1: Were like, I love past the torch, we got to
Speaker 1: pass the torch.
Speaker 3: I don't know, that would have been wild. A lot
Speaker 3: of people on friends her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it could have just if it I get
Speaker 2: I suppose if it felt really good to have people
Speaker 2: validating that.
Speaker 1: Maybe, I mean in Mother God, she at a certain
Speaker 1: point was like, no, I'm not actually a leader, Like
Speaker 1: I want to stop this now. A Mother God is
Speaker 1: a doc on HBO, and they were like, you can't
Speaker 1: like her. Followers kind of became more powerful than the leader.
Speaker 1: I know. So I've seen instances of that happening as well.
Speaker 1: It's it's very it's a very interesting landscape.
Speaker 3: That also happens in the Source family. Oh about that
Speaker 3: They go through the whole thing started in a health
Speaker 3: food sure and at the very end, when he's dying
Speaker 3: sorry spoiler alert, he's like, wait, I'm not God, but
Speaker 3: the whole they'd lived in mansions worn all white like
Speaker 3: it was the original, and were they like, yes, you are,
Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't remember. We should watch it.
Speaker 2: I mean I think that a lot of people maintained
Speaker 2: that belief. But yeah, I mean we you know, you
Speaker 2: see that happen a lot even with we. I feel
Speaker 2: like I keep talking about Vickram Gandhi. I talked about
Speaker 2: him recently, but a previous guest, a very early guest
Speaker 2: we had on on the show, posed as a guru,
Speaker 2: and then when he revealed that he was just faking
Speaker 2: it as an experiment, people still believed and thought it
Speaker 2: was part of the lesson, you know, like people really
Speaker 2: will once you're in a certain amount. It's like it's
Speaker 2: very hard to undo beliefs like that, especially when you've
Speaker 2: devoted so much life and energy to it. Yeah, did
Speaker 2: you ever question your own thoughts? Like, did it ever
Speaker 2: occur to you that maybe your reality wasn't the true reality?
Speaker 3: Well, eventually I had to sort of succumb to the
Speaker 3: medicinal psychiatric intervention and also psychotherapy. In this I went
Speaker 3: to this second hospital in Houston, Texas. After I was
Speaker 3: at Cedar's. Cedars used to have a psychiatric hospital called Aliens,
Speaker 3: but it's since been shut down. Aliens Aliens, Yeah, wow,
Speaker 3: that's whoever put the money in for it.
Speaker 1: So the suntile scientology thing to me.
Speaker 3: So when I was in I was in Houston for
Speaker 3: at Meninger for three months, and by the second or
Speaker 3: third month, I had a therapist that I really trusted.
Speaker 3: Her name was Cynthia. She always wore a white coat
Speaker 3: and she has short red hair and a pointing nose
Speaker 3: and glasses. I like this visual. Yeah, she just keeps
Speaker 3: getting more intricate, and she made me feel safe enough
Speaker 3: where she started to quite reality test, which is what
Speaker 3: it's called clinically and check my belief system. And then
Speaker 3: what I started doing is so basically a belief I
Speaker 3: had was that I could change the weather with my hand,
Speaker 3: and that I was connected to squirrels and other animals
Speaker 3: around the property because Meninger's like a has a larger
Speaker 3: nature situation, and there it's not indoors as much, well
Speaker 3: it is indoors, but anyway, there are squirrels. That's the
Speaker 3: whole point score. And I remember having to train myself
Speaker 3: like that squirrel just ran over to that door, not
Speaker 3: because you're also going to the door. That's not why,
Speaker 3: it's just going to the door. And then one of
Speaker 3: the code words that I thought this woman would use
Speaker 3: through other people when she was jumping bodies was coca cola.
Speaker 3: So any and people say coca cola all the damn time.
Speaker 3: So anytime someone said coca cola, she's here, you know.
Speaker 3: And so I remember having to say, Okay, that person
Speaker 3: just said coca cola or coke. Obviously people aren't walking
Speaker 3: around saying.
Speaker 4: Coca cola, but some people are.
Speaker 3: They don't they yeah, so long, coca cola, Yeah yeah,
Speaker 3: And saying Okay, that person just wants a coke. They
Speaker 3: just want to coke. They're not sending me. It's not
Speaker 3: her in them sending a message. But I thought what
Speaker 3: was happening in a ghost with Woopy Goldberg was like
Speaker 3: happening to everybody around.
Speaker 2: I don't I haven't seen ghosts inside.
Speaker 3: So she's like a medium and she really channels dead people.
Speaker 3: But mine was about a live people, Like in a
Speaker 3: live person that was powerful enough to be hopping bodies. Wow,
Speaker 3: that's so scary. Like I'll tell you a story. Right
Speaker 3: before the day before I was hospitalized, I ran away
Speaker 3: from home, and it was really wild because I knew
Speaker 3: that I was going to be picked up by my
Speaker 3: angel fleet. I knew that it was time to leave.
Speaker 3: And it was six am, and I packed a maroon
Speaker 3: Duffel bag with my laptop, a Puma hoodie, and a
Speaker 3: few of my journals and a pen. And I went
Speaker 3: to the front window and I saw a gold Mercedes
Speaker 3: pull up to the house next door, and I was like, Oh,
Speaker 3: that's my ride. I went out of the house, I
Speaker 3: went to the car. I opened the trunk. The man
Speaker 3: was in the car. I opened the trunk, I put
Speaker 3: the duffel. I put the Duffel in the trunk. I
Speaker 3: got in the car. I had a tape of my music.
Speaker 3: I like, had a cassette tape. I was like, we
Speaker 3: will be listening to my music. And I got in
Speaker 3: the car with this stranger and he took off with me.
Speaker 3: He took off with me. What He drove me all
Speaker 3: around town and he had two different cell phones and
Speaker 3: he was speaking Hebrew in one of them, and he
Speaker 3: was speaking English and the other. And I was like, okay,
Speaker 3: he's alerting the teams. I'm he has the lute, Like
Speaker 3: we're off to the races, drove me all over town.
Speaker 3: The last place he took me was this apartment in
Speaker 3: North Hollywood, some contractor named Schlowmi. He probably was like
Speaker 3: thirty two at the time wife Peter Grease back hair.
Speaker 3: And in order to get into his apartment, I had
Speaker 3: to walk through the parking lot and there was a
Speaker 3: sign that said you are being filmed. And I thought
Speaker 3: that like my head was being moved to see what
Speaker 3: it needed to be seen by this woman, Like she
Speaker 3: was not only controlling the people around me, but she
Speaker 3: was controlling my head. So she had me look to
Speaker 3: the sign that said you are being filmed. So I
Speaker 3: was like, Okay, whatever is about to happen is like
Speaker 3: really going to be broadcast, so I just have to
Speaker 3: know that. So go into Shlomi's apartment. He had like
Speaker 3: a bong and he had all this weed and he
Speaker 3: was trying to hook up with me, and I remember
Speaker 3: being like, oh my god, she's in his body. So
Speaker 3: I leaned forward and I was like, listen, I know
Speaker 3: you're in there. I can't hook up with you like
Speaker 3: in this form, so just like wait, but like I
Speaker 3: know you're in there, and he's looking back at me,
Speaker 3: like what is this chick.
Speaker 1: Talking about He's like, I've never been out weirded before.
Speaker 3: It's taking the cake.
Speaker 1: Yeah, He's like never, he's never been scared when he
Speaker 1: pulls this creepy move on the kid and you're like
Speaker 1: freaking him out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I love that for you, Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2: I'm also stuck on why did this man think you
Speaker 2: were entering his car?
Speaker 3: I don't know, and I will never know. My mother
Speaker 3: and sister found me because he was an acquaintance of
Speaker 3: my neighbor, and so they ended up showing up at
Speaker 3: Shlomy's and they were at the door. They had been crying.
Speaker 3: They like thought I was dead. They had no idea
Speaker 3: where I was going to go. They had no idea
Speaker 3: if they'd ever seen me again. Their eyes were glazed.
Speaker 3: They seemed to be operating very slowly compared to me,
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, the evil force has them.
Speaker 3: But I ended up going with them. And I also
Speaker 3: thought that I was on the way to my wedding
Speaker 3: to this woman. It wasn't just connecting with her. I
Speaker 3: was like going to get married to her. I was eighteen,
Speaker 3: it was legal. I was going to get married. And
Speaker 3: so mirror Ball Sarah McLaughlin. Mirror Ball was playing on
Speaker 3: my mom asterio great record, and I thought it was
Speaker 3: a broadcast from my wedding venue in Malaburma.
Speaker 1: You have a lot of storylines going on at once
Speaker 1: and you were just able to follow them off flawlessly.
Speaker 1: I have to point that out.
Speaker 2: And this is the same girl from your acting camp.
Speaker 2: Did you ever tell her yeah she reacts?
Speaker 3: What did she say? Well? It was hard because I
Speaker 3: had such a belief in the power in her power wow.
Speaker 3: And it was the year after I was completely back,
Speaker 3: and I found her through a guy. I was like
Speaker 3: working at a cafe and a guy came in who
Speaker 3: knew her, and I said, are you still in touch
Speaker 3: with her? Let's call her Fairy Song? Oh yeah? And
Speaker 3: I was like, are you in touch with Fairy And
Speaker 3: he was like, yeah, actually I am. Do you want
Speaker 3: her number? And so I ended up having a conversation
Speaker 3: with her and she so was not the person taking
Speaker 3: over the world with me who I thought she was,
Speaker 3: And so that was a tiny little death, but I
Speaker 3: think it was an important conversation.
Speaker 2: I'm still so curious about the reality testing piece of it,
Speaker 2: because I imagine there are probably lots of people listening, who
Speaker 2: have dealt with someone who might be in some kind
Speaker 2: of episode and you know it's it's encouraging to know
Speaker 2: it's possible to come out of it. How much of that, like,
Speaker 2: do you attribute most of that to having someone you
Speaker 2: trust as like someone who is really like kind and
Speaker 2: gentle as your mental health, like as your therapist.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think if someone is listens long enough to understand,
Speaker 3: like be passive enough to understand what the person believes,
Speaker 3: so really hear what they think, who's after them, what
Speaker 3: they're in control over and fit into their storyline. And
Speaker 3: as long as you're saying absolutely yes, end you know yes,
Speaker 3: and agreeing with everything they say. And that, incidentally, is
Speaker 3: what therapists are trained to do with delusional like delusional disorders,
Speaker 3: because if they disagree with the person, the person's going
Speaker 3: to leave treatment.
Speaker 2: Right. That's so interesting because it's very similar to how
Speaker 2: you would talk to somebody who is in a cult
Speaker 2: and is believing in this cult reality.
Speaker 1: You can't be like you're an idiot, shut up or leaving.
Speaker 2: You'd be like, oh, yeah, so tell me more about
Speaker 2: your beliefs.
Speaker 4: Why do you feel that way?
Speaker 2: And then like over time, if you can have just
Speaker 2: understanding conversations, like you could maybe start asking questions, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: without attacking what the belief is. And it's just so
Speaker 2: interesting that that tactic is kind of the same for
Speaker 2: both of those things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's the same in recovery too, Like if
Speaker 3: somebody leaves a recovery group, like a twelve step group,
Speaker 3: the wisest advice always is to not cast that person out,
Speaker 3: not cast judgment, be the door if they ever want
Speaker 3: to return, or if they ever want to send somebody else, Like, definitely,
Speaker 3: I think that cooperation is important.
Speaker 2: Like would she ask a question like if the squirrel
Speaker 2: is listening to you, can you control it right now?
Speaker 2: Can you do?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Would there be stuff where you were kind of like
Speaker 2: forced to contend with like your ideas being proven wrong?
Speaker 3: Why I wish I remembered Cynthia. I wish I remembered
Speaker 3: more of what she said. I don't really remember anything,
Speaker 3: only that I really liked her, I really really trusted her.
Speaker 3: I really liked her. So I also think medication was helping.
Speaker 3: Sure I have I know and hear all the time,
Speaker 3: which is wild because I've never, like since then, I
Speaker 3: have never been disobedient when it comes to psychiatric medication,
Speaker 3: I think, what could be scarier? But I never hear
Speaker 3: about people staying on their medication, do you know what
Speaker 3: I mean? Thought you all the time, like he went
Speaker 3: off as meds, she went off her meds, like wild
Speaker 3: And then they have episodes whereas I have the experience
Speaker 3: of the medication actually really working, slowing down my brain
Speaker 3: from making certain connections.
Speaker 1: I mean, now we haven't we have this part of
Speaker 1: the story where it's like, now you have to deconstruct
Speaker 1: your beliefs from this over arching belief that your brain
Speaker 1: has made, and I am wondering what that feels like?
Speaker 3: So horrible. I would think a lot of people would
Speaker 3: stay ongoing in cults, and especially two by twos for example,
Speaker 3: because it's home, it's identity, it's community.
Speaker 2: In your in your for you as well, like.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm applying it to cults. For me, it was
Speaker 3: like a nightmare. I mean, to go from thinking you're
Speaker 3: a profit to serving muffins at a bakery is really something.
Speaker 3: It's very upsetting. So I was depressed for a very
Speaker 3: long time afterwards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so many people in cults are told
Speaker 2: that they're chosen, you know, I was told I was
Speaker 2: chosen like one of like you know, five chosen people
Speaker 2: for the end of the world and so like like
Speaker 2: obviously very different context, but like similar having to sort
Speaker 2: of reframe myself in the world as like just a person. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, from like being Harry Potter to being just
Speaker 2: a person.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is heart it's it's that's hard for and I think
Speaker 2: that's so much of why it is difficult to leave
Speaker 2: any belief system, but especially when there's community involved, especially
Speaker 2: if their finance is involved.
Speaker 1: And Lola reminds me of like Lola got specific OCD help.
Speaker 3: How do you say this.
Speaker 4: Like, oh, like therapy. Yeah, yeah, so it.
Speaker 1: Reminds me of how because I also went to the
Speaker 1: place you were going because I was like, I also
Speaker 1: have a CD, but I feel like you did the
Speaker 1: work a little bit deeper than I did. I had
Speaker 1: a really embarrassing thing happened with my therapist or with
Speaker 1: the first time I talked to her. I sat down
Speaker 1: on my curtains and the curtain rod fell down and
Speaker 1: hit me on that and we were on zoom and
Speaker 1: like after that, I just I was too humiliated to
Speaker 1: like really connecte.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but through.
Speaker 1: Your explanation of how going. It was just like sitting
Speaker 1: in the uncomfortability of having a thought and knowing it
Speaker 1: might not be true even though it's there. Can you
Speaker 1: say a little bit more about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I had I have had to do
Speaker 2: so much work on like noticing a thought when it
Speaker 2: comes into my head and instead of believing it immediately,
Speaker 2: we're like looking at it and being like, Okay.
Speaker 4: That's a thought.
Speaker 2: That's a thought I'm having about something that might be true,
Speaker 2: and also it might not, and I am going to
Speaker 2: just allow that uncertainty to be here rather than jumping
Speaker 2: to believing it and trying to react to it and
Speaker 2: defend against it and do some kind of mental ritual
Speaker 2: to stop the thing from happening. Yeah. And for me,
Speaker 2: actually it was I was initially it changes. The themes change,
Speaker 2: but initially it was a fear of losing my mind,
Speaker 2: and so I was like constantly on guard against losing,
Speaker 2: you know, losing my mind. I'm gonna lose my mind.
Speaker 2: I got I gotta be hypervigil my mind so I
Speaker 2: don't lose my mind.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 4: And I had to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was doing a lot of exposure and response
Speaker 2: prevention therapy around like Okay, maybe I'll lose my mind.
Speaker 2: Maybe not, And I'm going to just allow that uncertainty
Speaker 2: to exist.
Speaker 1: Uncertainty, uncertainty, that cognitive dissonance. Those are the reasons that
Speaker 1: cults exist. Is to get away from those.
Speaker 2: Things, to provide certainty, because it feels so much better,
Speaker 2: much better.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, just knowing that, like that uncomfortable feeling
Speaker 1: that a lot of people are probably having to set
Speaker 1: with right now is uh the hardest work. And it's
Speaker 1: good work, and that's important work, but it.
Speaker 3: Is not easy.
Speaker 1: And and I can't even imagine where you had, like
Speaker 1: how much work that must have taken.
Speaker 3: It's a lot of work. That's a lot of work.
Speaker 3: Well it's hard, you know, I think for anybody in
Speaker 3: my own experience, the internal world, the relationship with yourself,
Speaker 3: you know, especially I had an incredibly traumatic childhood. I
Speaker 3: did not have have safe, healthy adult mirrors around me,
Speaker 3: so I became a parentified child and that doesn't allow
Speaker 3: you to develop the healthiest relationship with self. And it's
Speaker 3: a lot easier, especially nowadays, where stimulation is just on
Speaker 3: ten and you want somebody to say, Okay, which shampoo
Speaker 3: do I use? So like it's too much information nobody
Speaker 3: needs to even know all this streamlining sense of purpose,
Speaker 3: streamlining community and belief systems. Like it's so much easier,
Speaker 3: though way more painful in the long run, to depend
Speaker 3: on these external sources of power. Whether it's a romantic
Speaker 3: relationship where you have a narcissistic lover, or you're in
Speaker 3: a recovery group with a narcissistic sponsor, or you're working
Speaker 3: under a sociopathic boss who promises the promotion, or you're
Speaker 3: in a cult. This is this is the source of
Speaker 3: like all pain I think is that people aren't willing
Speaker 3: to go internally first, like you did to say, I
Speaker 3: don't want to lose my mind, Like what is a
Speaker 3: thought to Lola? But you know, what is this interior world.
Speaker 3: It's it's very hard to do that. And if you
Speaker 3: do work on your interior world, you might get distracted,
Speaker 3: you by somebody who's you know, and it's kind of boring.
Speaker 5: That's exactly what it's boring, hur And like there's just
Speaker 5: this you know, there's just like the hottest person over
Speaker 5: there that you could go get in a toxic relationship with.
Speaker 1: There's this little thought in your brain that you could
Speaker 1: really go wild with, And like have some fun with chaos. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fucking boring, and it's necessary.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so necessary. It's we're all signs point like when
Speaker 3: you yeah.
Speaker 2: And to like it's boring, but then after the boring,
Speaker 2: it's rewarding and fulfilling and it feels healthy and you
Speaker 2: feel like, yeah, there's happiness on the other side of
Speaker 2: the boredom.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's important side of.
Speaker 1: Your like, it takes a lot of hard work to
Speaker 1: get like a certain part of your brain to turn
Speaker 1: back on. Yeah, you know, and then once it does,
Speaker 1: you're not as bored because you're dealing with a different deck.
Speaker 1: And I don't know. We always come back to this,
Speaker 1: the fact that I believe in a bunch of spiritual shit.
Speaker 1: Where did Where did you land with all of these things?
Speaker 3: You know? I think sort of back to being very
Speaker 3: practical and three dimensionally bound, I think is where I
Speaker 3: returned to, which is a little bit unfortunate that my
Speaker 3: experiences with the spiritual realm have to be linked to
Speaker 3: psychosis and hospitalizations and handcuffs and all that. I Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think it's it's I really try to stay in
Speaker 3: the present. I try to stay in what is and
Speaker 3: what is three dimensional what is you know, I believe
Speaker 3: obviously in the greater forces of the universe. I can't
Speaker 3: predict what's going to happen in thirty minutes from now,
Speaker 3: and I know that most big things in my life
Speaker 3: do come out of left field. And was that karmic contract?
Speaker 3: Was that you know? Whatever it is? I believe that
Speaker 3: there are greater forces at play, of course, but as
Speaker 3: far as God and like personal higher powers that have
Speaker 3: my best interests in mind. And I think that goes
Speaker 3: along with relationship with self. I think it's sort of
Speaker 3: a lifelong journey. Yeah, to really because you can believe
Speaker 3: in God, But then is that relationship personal to you?
Speaker 3: Like where is that source of power in your life?
Speaker 3: I think that's a lifelong journey. I love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, are we missing anything about your experience, your journey,
Speaker 1: your your takebacks from the other side.
Speaker 3: My takebacks, my takeaways from the other side. Yeah. I
Speaker 3: think everybody should stand their medication. I think if your
Speaker 3: friend or family member or someone you're close to is
Speaker 3: experiencing a disconnect from reality, is experiencing delusions of grandeur,
Speaker 3: you have to work with them because the moment you
Speaker 3: butt up against whatever it is, they're believing you're eliminated
Speaker 3: from a potential treatment conduit or team, So that I
Speaker 3: think is the most important thing for anyone listening.
Speaker 1: But at some point you have to show your hand
Speaker 1: and be like, but maybe not right.
Speaker 3: Well, I think you want to get the person into treatment,
Speaker 3: right like, you want to get them hospitalized.
Speaker 4: Essentially, rather than trying to or get them to a doctor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is such wonderful information. It's linking so many
Speaker 1: things together for me. I don't know about Yolola, but.
Speaker 2: Would you say that you're experiencing ideas of reference?
Speaker 1: Ideas of reference?
Speaker 3: No, do you have a cult to start?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: Probably, No, it's it's just really hitting home for me too.
Speaker 1: Of that the experience is that I'm seeing of people
Speaker 1: leaving these high control groups and how they're immediately dropped
Speaker 1: into depressive episodes. They feel a loss of meaning, a
Speaker 1: loss of you know, beauty in the world. And there's
Speaker 1: just so many I think we've touched upon, like ten
Speaker 1: parallels between what you experienced and what people starting cults,
Speaker 1: leaving cults, and cults, family members watching people in cults
Speaker 1: all can can help. So thank you so much for
Speaker 1: being our guests powerful information.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: Wow wewa wawa we wa.
Speaker 1: Indeed that was fascinating, I mean, totally leading thought edge
Speaker 1: stuff for me, stuff I've never thought of before.
Speaker 2: M m hmm. Exciting. So the point you had brought
Speaker 2: up earlier was about why we think that it tends
Speaker 2: toward religious delicious episodes?
Speaker 1: Episodes tend to go towards religious delusions was the question
Speaker 1: that popped into my mind. And you seem to have
Speaker 1: an idea about it, as do I, So why.
Speaker 3: Don't you go first?
Speaker 2: I mean a couple thoughts, not from an educated perspective.
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's a I'm sure there's a mental health
Speaker 2: professional who has or a neurologist who has a better
Speaker 2: sense of it. But my just like initial thoughts were like,
Speaker 2: we actually see a lot of people like people who
Speaker 2: are in a paranoid delusion will often be talking about
Speaker 2: the government and.
Speaker 4: Not necessarily religion.
Speaker 2: I wonder how much of it comes from whatever your
Speaker 2: particular framework is growing up and that just gets activated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's like the government and God are a
Speaker 1: symbolic thing of control.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, both of those would be powers like bigger
Speaker 2: than yourself. So if you're feeling these overwhelming emotions and
Speaker 2: thoughts like it's got to attach to some kind of
Speaker 2: greater power. I would imagine. It also made me think
Speaker 2: about this episode we did a long time ago that
Speaker 2: I actually think was fascinating, maybe a bit heady for
Speaker 2: anyone who wants to listen to it. It was with Yuval
Speaker 2: Laur called Further Awe and hyper Religiosity, and what we
Speaker 2: talked about was temporal lobe epilepsy and how that's a
Speaker 2: particular kind of seizure in the brain that for some
Speaker 2: reason leads to often leads to religious experiences. But I
Speaker 2: can't remember the exact mechanism, and we probably don't actually know,
Speaker 2: but it has something to do with the fact that
Speaker 2: it gives you this really really heightened emotional experience that
Speaker 2: feels like it must be spiritual because of how heightened
Speaker 2: and intense it is. It's like a peak experience. It
Speaker 2: is a peak experience.
Speaker 1: I will also throw into the chat this book that
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with.
Speaker 3: It was this.
Speaker 1: Book by a woman who was a neurologist at Harvard.
Speaker 1: Her name is doctor Jill Bolt or Bote, and she
Speaker 1: had a aneurysm and her basically ego collapsed and she
Speaker 1: was living in this bizarre state of oneness with all
Speaker 1: that is. Oh wait, what's it called, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: find Okay, it's called My Stroke of Insight? Oh yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: And you know to me, as we all know, I
Speaker 1: am a little bit more prone to the spiritual side
Speaker 1: of life. So I do think that there are spiritual
Speaker 1: explanations for some things. And you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's a mystery to me, but I strongly recommend reading
Speaker 1: My Stroke of Insight.
Speaker 4: It is interesting how.
Speaker 2: When you stimulate certain parts of the brain you have
Speaker 2: a spiritual experience. And I think mostrologists woul attribute that
Speaker 2: to the feelings that it produces.
Speaker 1: Actually experienced it, and what's hard takeaway that there's something
Speaker 1: really to it.
Speaker 3: I'm not.
Speaker 1: We're accessing a different part of our brain. That's important.
Speaker 2: So I'm very curious to read the book and see
Speaker 2: through through the lens of how I think if my
Speaker 2: takeaway would be she had a very.
Speaker 1: Buddhist take on it, and very like if you're using
Speaker 1: this part of your mind, like.
Speaker 3: I'll have to read that.
Speaker 4: She wasn't saying she's magically accessing.
Speaker 1: No, she was saying that she is completely aware that
Speaker 1: we're all one, you know.
Speaker 2: So if there were a way for us all to
Speaker 2: access that feeling because of something that's being stimulated in
Speaker 2: our rain, that would be great.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Anne for speaking to us
Speaker 1: about this, because that was very vulnerable and very thought provoking.
Speaker 2: Indeed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, if y'all like the podcast, please go rate
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Speaker 3: It to us.
Speaker 2: It's annoying to do.
Speaker 4: Why would you do that?
Speaker 1: A troll?
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Speaker 3: Bye.
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