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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a cult,

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Speaker 1: are a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me.

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Speaker 2: Trust Me. I'm like a swat person. I've never lied

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Speaker 2: to you, I've never had a live about If you

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Speaker 2: think that one person has all the answers, don't welcome

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Speaker 2: to trust Me. The podcast about cults, Extreme belief and

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Speaker 2: Manipulation from two mental health lovers who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth, and

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Speaker 2: today our guest is a friend we'll call Anne, who's

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Speaker 2: going to talk to us about the connection between psychosis

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Speaker 2: and cults. We'll discuss the mental changes she began experiencing

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Speaker 2: when her episode started, the delusions that grew stronger and

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Speaker 2: felt more and more true, how she felt like she

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Speaker 2: was communicating directly with spirits, and the paranoia that grew

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Speaker 2: inside her, not unlike what many cult leaders seem to experience.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about how it seems like some cult leaders

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Speaker 1: must be in the middle of a psychotic break, unbeknownst

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Speaker 1: to their followers or even themselves, how psychiatric intervention with

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Speaker 1: a caring mental health professional was what eventually pulled her

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Speaker 1: out of it, and the parallels between coming out of

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Speaker 1: a paranoid delusion and coming out of a cult belief,

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Speaker 1: and why it can be wise not to directly attack

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Speaker 1: the belief.

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Speaker 3: We always come back to that.

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Speaker 4: I always come back to that.

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Speaker 2: This one brings up an interesting question that comes up

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Speaker 2: all the time about cult leaders and how much they

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Speaker 2: are believing what they're doing. And I want to be clear,

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Speaker 2: we're not saying that cult leaders aren't responsible for their actions.

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Speaker 2: Most of them probably know exactly what they're doing, but

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Speaker 2: there seems to be a small percentage of people who

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Speaker 2: literally had a hallucination, yeah, and continue to have hallucinations.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 1: It actually applies to my cultiest thing in the week.

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Speaker 1: I was talking to Anne and she was kind of

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Speaker 1: telling me about this episode that she had and how

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Speaker 1: before it, and she'll get into it in the episode,

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Speaker 1: but how before it she really had no interest in

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Speaker 1: spirituality whatsoever. And it drew the parallel to me of

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Speaker 1: my cult leader, the two by two infamous William Irvine

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Speaker 1: that I've always had really negative feelings about. He was

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Speaker 1: so mean, he started this cult and ruined four generations

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Speaker 1: of my family and like blah blah, blah blah. But

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Speaker 1: then I read a little bit more about him, and

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Speaker 1: he basically was turning thirty, had a depressive episode where

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Speaker 1: he considered taking his life, and then a week later

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Speaker 1: found a gospel and then is doing like bicycle missions

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Speaker 1: to Scotland, And I was like, oh, I think he

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Speaker 1: had an episode, and he ended up getting kicked out

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Speaker 1: of the very group he started, died ranting and raving

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Speaker 1: in India like this on a street corner with no

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Speaker 1: mental health given to him, and kind of the religion

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Speaker 1: taken over by people who used it for yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so interesting, Like maybe some of them the

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Speaker 2: original leader was just literally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah in an episode, maybe you know. So it really

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Speaker 1: reframed it for me. Why is it when somebody goes

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Speaker 1: into these episodes, is it usually religion that pops into

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Speaker 1: their mind? And I think I have an answer, But

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Speaker 1: y'all can come to your own conclusions and we can

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Speaker 1: discuss at the end.

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Speaker 4: Well, I have thoughts on that.

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Speaker 3: But let's wait till the end. Let's wait till the end.

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Speaker 4: Would you like to hear my cultiest thing?

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Speaker 1: No, no, just kidding. What's your culdiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 2: Well, obviously this is election week, so so everything is

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Speaker 2: coldly on the internet right now. But all of that aside,

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Speaker 2: I saw this video on TikTok, so I've been unfortunately

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Speaker 2: going to the dark side and spending a little bit

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Speaker 2: more time on TikTok and oh turning. It's killing my

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Speaker 2: brains out, as I can feel it.

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Speaker 1: Every time I go on TikTok, I have like five

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Speaker 1: new eating disorders. I'm like, I have to be on

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Speaker 1: the staremaster for forty five minutes a day.

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Speaker 3: Why was that?

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Well, I saw this video that had

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Speaker 2: gone super viral of a girl and I actually posted

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Speaker 2: a video about it on.

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Speaker 4: My own TikTok.

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Speaker 2: Whatever, so I'll probably be repeating myself if you follow

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Speaker 2: me there, but a video of a girl talking to

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Speaker 2: an AI on her iPad and having a conversation and

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Speaker 2: it sounds very human coming out of the iPad and

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Speaker 2: they're talking about reality, having like sort of a philosophical conversation.

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Speaker 2: And the AI is saying stuff that's like not that impressive,

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Speaker 2: Like it's just like a normal back and forth conversation

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Speaker 2: you'd have with someone about, you know, ideas about what

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Speaker 2: reality is. She started talking about the law of attraction

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Speaker 2: and then the AI started responding to her and really

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Speaker 2: affirming this idea that this is a true scientific law

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Speaker 2: and whatever you believe about that. It was really interesting

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Speaker 2: to watch because she was so transfixed with what the

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Speaker 2: AI was saying to her, as though it was this

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Speaker 2: sort of like otherworldly wisdom, when in reality, ais are

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Speaker 2: synthesizing human ideas and things that humans have written, and

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Speaker 2: as we know, humans often get it oh, very very

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Speaker 2: wrong totally.

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Speaker 1: And if you were to ask disprove the law of

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Speaker 1: attraction to me, it would have had an equally interesting conversation.

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Speaker 1: I've found.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like it reflects back whatever you are asking it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But as we discussed with former guests on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: people have lost the plot on how it's working. It is,

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Speaker 1: remember the tech woman we interviewed, like it is working

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Speaker 1: beyond human knowledge a bit, but it is also skewed

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Speaker 1: to what you're asking about. But in the same breath,

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Speaker 1: it has taught me that time isn't real because of gravity.

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Speaker 1: And now I understand physics like physics and concepts in

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Speaker 1: a way that my brain should absolutely never understand because

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Speaker 1: I ask it to explain things to me, like I'm

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Speaker 1: in the movie Clueless.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's can be really good at simplifying complex ideas,

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Speaker 2: but I think it can also.

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Speaker 4: I mean, just a couple of weeks.

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Speaker 2: Ago, I asked it to find me examples of scenes

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Speaker 2: in movies, and three of them were like movies I

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Speaker 2: had seen, and I was like, that never happened in

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Speaker 2: that movie, and it was like.

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Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, I guess you're right.

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Speaker 1: I asked it to tell me what was going on

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Speaker 1: with P Diddy and it was like P Diddy is

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Speaker 1: an award winning musician. I was like, no, I mean

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Speaker 1: right now, and then I was like, oh, sorry, yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, as we discussed in that episode, it can

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Speaker 2: be a tool for amazing things and also for really

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Speaker 2: bad things. And my bigger takeaway was less like it's

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Speaker 2: talking about the law of attraction, which I personally, which

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Speaker 2: there's no evidence for.

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Speaker 4: My bigger takeaway is.

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Speaker 2: Sure world for it, all the anecdotal, all the anecdotal

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Speaker 2: real evidence, But it was more how she seemed to

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Speaker 2: be she seemed to be elevating the AI to a

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Speaker 2: level beyond the higher power. Yes, exactly, And it just

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Speaker 2: was a glimpse for me into you know, as I

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Speaker 2: say in my own video, like we as humans are

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Speaker 2: so drawn to people who have appear to have some

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Speaker 2: kind of authority or confidence. Right, who's going to seem

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Speaker 2: to have more authority than a robot that can read

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Speaker 2: everything that's ever been written? And that is very dangerous

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Speaker 2: depending on who's programming it, and depending on how safeguards

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Speaker 2: are or are not put in place in whatever you're using.

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Speaker 2: So I'm just like, we are going to have a

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Speaker 2: cult leaders I think next year, that's my prediction.

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Speaker 1: And if you want to hear more about us talking

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Speaker 1: about this, we did do an episode with Sarah Teitelman

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Speaker 1: called The Culty Elements of Technology, So jump back there

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Speaker 1: and listen to that if this is something that you're

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Speaker 1: interested in, indeed, But for now, shall we talk to Anne.

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Speaker 3: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Anne to trust me. So great to be here,

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Speaker 2: so great to be with you.

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Speaker 4: In real life.

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Speaker 2: We have you here today to talk about something we

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Speaker 2: have not done an episode on yet, and I think

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Speaker 2: will be very fascinating for listeners and for me because

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Speaker 2: it's a topic I know nothing about, which is psychotic

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Speaker 2: episodes and how they connect to people who start cults.

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Speaker 2: Can you start us off by telling us about who

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Speaker 2: you were before you had your first episode of psychosis?

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Speaker 2: What was your life like? Did you have any religious beliefs?

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Speaker 1: Tell us about what were your interests?

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Speaker 3: My interests, well, I was always very artistic and creative,

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Speaker 3: so throughout my teenage years. Well, my first episode was

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and three when I was eighteen years old,

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Speaker 3: and before having that episode, I was very involved in

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Speaker 3: music and art, and I played sports, and I was

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Speaker 3: raised Jewish. I had about Mitzvah, but I didn't have

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Speaker 3: any real spiritual or religious understanding underpinnings, no real concept

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Speaker 3: of God. Actually, if anything, I didn't believe that there

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Speaker 3: was a greater force because I lost my father suddenly

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Speaker 3: when I was seven. So I remember this moment of

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Speaker 3: getting that news where I was like I sort of

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Speaker 3: looked up at the sky and I was like, wow,

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Speaker 3: we really are alone. So I would say, if anything,

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Speaker 3: I did not believe in invisible forces and no real

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Speaker 3: curiosity about absolutely not. I was more curious about what

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Speaker 3: the liner notes said on the new nine Inch Nails record,

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Speaker 3: like where I was and what.

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Speaker 2: Were the first signs that something was kind of changing

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Speaker 2: for you internally?

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Speaker 3: I took a trip with my family, and this had

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Speaker 3: been influenced by some prescription medications that I was using

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Speaker 3: that were not prescribed to me, and I started to

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Speaker 3: have what is referred to clinically as a hypomanic episode.

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Speaker 3: So I started sort of operating on heightened awareness and

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Speaker 3: sleeping less. I dropped a lot of weight, and I

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Speaker 3: started connecting dots between things that weren't necessarily there.

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Speaker 2: And is that idea? Is that what ideas of reference

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Speaker 2: is or what is idea?

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Speaker 3: I think it is the start of ideas of reference.

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Speaker 3: And I'm just you know, researching all of this myself.

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Speaker 3: There's ideas of reference and then their delusions of reference

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Speaker 3: and illusions are sort of like the full blown enchilada,

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Speaker 3: Like I think I'm Jesus Christ because X, Y and

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Speaker 3: Z connect in my life. I started to at that time,

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and three, believe that I was going

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Speaker 3: to be a figurehead of a movement to almost a

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Speaker 3: feminist movement to liberate media from the patriarchy. And like

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Speaker 3: old old men in charge. And I grew up in

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Speaker 3: Los Angeles, so I grew up literally around all of

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Speaker 3: the people that were in charge. These were not weird figures.

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Speaker 3: These were my best friend's dads. So it was the

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Speaker 3: concept that what was called past the torch and I

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Speaker 3: called it PT.

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Speaker 1: So past the torch is a concept that is yours.

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Speaker 3: Past the torch is my concept. I changed my friend's surname,

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Speaker 3: change your friend's name. I changed my friends their name

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Speaker 3: to ptpt oh, and it was past the torch from

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Speaker 3: the older generation to the new generation, and I would

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Speaker 3: be the figurehead. But I figured all my friends would

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Speaker 3: be in tow and they would support me.

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Speaker 2: And was there something in your environment do you think

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Speaker 2: that led you to have that be the thing that

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Speaker 2: your brain focused on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was working in the music industry at the time,

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Speaker 3: and I had like a pretty prominent an R position

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Speaker 3: at a large record label at eighteen. Yeah, and again,

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Speaker 3: around the people who are running the business. It wasn't

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Speaker 3: some far fetched person I was seeing through my television.

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Speaker 3: It was who I was seeing when I showed up

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Speaker 3: at work. And I thought mostly in the music industry,

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Speaker 3: which I feel is the first media industry that got

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Speaker 3: hit with digital and technological transformation that these CEOs and

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Speaker 3: presidents and shareholders of record labels really were not willing

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Speaker 3: to adapt to technology. They tried all sorts of things

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Speaker 3: drm rights management on CDs, protections. They couldn't get with

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Speaker 3: the times in the way that people were consuming music,

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Speaker 3: especially teenagers people my age. I mean, I was on

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Speaker 3: Napster all day long.

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Speaker 2: And that's a reasonable like and reasonable to be like,

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Speaker 2: these guys need to get with the like and the

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Speaker 2: future is female.

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Speaker 1: You were like twenty years ahead, but what else is new?

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Speaker 1: And as a legend, and I'm wondering, like, when did

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Speaker 1: the kind of religious inkling enter the picture? Or higher

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Speaker 1: power inkling?

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Speaker 3: Shall we say? So? This starts in the invisible I

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Speaker 3: was believing that spirits were jumping bodies and that there

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Speaker 3: were certain senior spirits that were guiding me, and that

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Speaker 3: there were good spirits and evil spirits, which I feel

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Speaker 3: is very religious.

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Speaker 2: And did those ideas just kind of start entering your

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Speaker 2: mind just like a thought would occur to you and

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Speaker 2: you'd be like, yes, I believe that thought.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, it just felt true.

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Speaker 6: Yes, And I mean I know we spoke a little

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Speaker 6: bit before we started recording. There were some thoughts that

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Speaker 6: didn't immediately feel true, and it felt like your brain

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Speaker 6: almost had to like slowly coerce.

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Speaker 2: You and to believing them, like, yeah, what were those

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Speaker 2: talk about?

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Speaker 3: That? Well, there was an awareness that because of my ego,

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Speaker 3: it was going to be hard for me to accept

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Speaker 3: my role as the center of the universe and the

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Speaker 3: Lord pretty much. I mean, I didn't call it the Lord.

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Speaker 3: I didn't call it the Lord. It was like past

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Speaker 3: the Torch. And I was the leader of that movement.

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Speaker 3: And then I was spiritually bound to a girl who

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Speaker 3: I was in drama camp with when I was thirteen,

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Speaker 3: and she was a Goth and I thought she was amazing.

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Speaker 3: And we had done the Whiz together at this drama

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Speaker 3: camp at Graystone Mansion, and she played Evilan and I

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Speaker 3: played the Lion. And I remember, I don't know how

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Speaker 3: I got the idea of her, but I remember, you know,

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Speaker 3: zoom forward five years. I'm in my den. I'm manic now,

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Speaker 3: not hypomanic, like manic and rolling into psychosis at this point,

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Speaker 3: and I pulled the VHS down, I put it in,

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Speaker 3: and I thought that her spirit left the television and

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Speaker 3: came into my house. Oh wow, And I saw lights flickering,

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Speaker 3: and that was sort of the beginning of like, okay,

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Speaker 3: I need to be hyper vigilant about where she's guiding me.

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Speaker 3: And that was sort of so it wasn't it was

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Speaker 3: about romance more than it was oh interesting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that like.

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Speaker 2: From totally normal nowhere thoughts to like I'm talking to

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Speaker 2: spirits and maybe I'm God.

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Speaker 4: Like how long was that process?

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Speaker 3: I think it started in like June, in the beginning

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Speaker 3: of June of twenty twenty three, and I was fifty

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Speaker 3: one fifty by the end of August, so there was

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Speaker 3: like a three month steady esc and yeah, then by

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Speaker 3: the end of August I was in the hospital. But

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Speaker 3: even with meds, this was such a powerful delusion that

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Speaker 3: even with psychiatric intervention, I was still pretty high up

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Speaker 3: there for another four months and two different institutions.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So are you able to describe the difference between a

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Speaker 2: manic episode and a psychotic episode. I'm assuming there's some

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Speaker 2: overlaps sometimes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, I'll say, what I'm

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Speaker 3: saying is not as vetted as whatever chat GPT would say,

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Speaker 3: and I don't read a lot. I think a lot

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Speaker 3: but like for me, when I think about manic episodes,

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Speaker 3: they just seem a little easier to come by, so

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Speaker 3: to speak. Some people say they're triggered with methamphetamine use.

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Speaker 3: Some people say their you know mom is bipolar, went

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Speaker 3: off or meds, went on a shopping spree, went on

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Speaker 3: a sexcapage, cheated on her husband. Maybe easier to spot, too,

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Speaker 3: easier to spot exactly.

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Speaker 2: Someone's like high energy, right and like probably talking really

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Speaker 2: fast and engaging in a lot of like unusual behaviors

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Speaker 2: for them, maybe.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or excessive excessive behaviors exactly. Whereas with psychosis it

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Speaker 3: has many different flavors. I think is a wider it's

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Speaker 3: more of a catch all. And what we were discussing

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Speaker 3: a little bit before is that somebody can be psychotic

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Speaker 3: and you would have no idea.

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Speaker 2: And that and that is a period of losing touch

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Speaker 2: with reality that can cause I'm just reading this from

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Speaker 2: Google hallucinations, you're so smart.

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Speaker 4: And confused thoughts.

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Speaker 2: So that's more of like you are believing in a

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Speaker 2: reality that is detached from the reality.

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Speaker 3: Reality exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: And to also just read from the Internet ideas of reference.

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Speaker 2: This is how the Internet describes it. It's a type

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Speaker 2: because I hadn't heard this term before, A type of

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Speaker 2: delusion that occurs when someone believes that ordinary events or

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Speaker 2: coincidences have a strong personal significance. People with IRS might

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Speaker 2: may interpret neutral stimulis such as gestures, comments, or looks

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Speaker 2: as being directed at them. It can be a common

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Speaker 2: symptom of psychosis and can be observed in up to

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Speaker 2: seventy percent of patients with recent onset schizophrenia. So would

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Speaker 2: that be more of like the seeing signs and everything

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Speaker 2: everything's connected? Yes?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, And so I think where they overlap is

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Speaker 3: when your manic you can make connect, you can think

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Speaker 3: really quickly, your thought life is expedited. But I think

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Speaker 3: there's more genius in psychosis in terms of linking things

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Speaker 3: together that aren't necessarily linked, and developing a consistent narrative

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Speaker 3: and more attention to that narrative.

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Speaker 1: And truly believing it, which makes you so much more convincing, convicted,

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Speaker 1: you know, like you're an not. We fall into this

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Speaker 1: question so many times on this podcast, as this leader

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Speaker 1: malicious or do.

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Speaker 3: They believe it? Or do they believe it? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And if you actually believe it, you are probably more

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Speaker 1: likely to have way more effects on followers.

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Speaker 2: Some we don't associate past are probably really good at

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Speaker 2: emulating that conviction. But yeah, I mean, like if somebody

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Speaker 2: really believes something, you're going to feel that it's wild. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean did you have inklings about follow like how

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Speaker 2: you were going to have followers?

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Speaker 1: Well, she had to pass the torch someone, If I.

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Speaker 3: Had to pass the torch, it was going to be

356
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Speaker 3: passed to me. Just see. I don't know if I

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Speaker 3: saw it as followers. Necessarily, it was a journey I

358
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Speaker 3: was on and I had I had I had somebody

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Speaker 3: very close to me die tragically a year before, and

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Speaker 3: so it had a lot to do with my own

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Speaker 3: personal romantic arc. So it was less, it was less

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Speaker 3: typically religious followers. But tapping back on what Megan said,

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Speaker 3: I do think if a cult leader or a cult

364
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Speaker 3: figure is psychotic and convinced of these delusions, that is

365
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Speaker 3: that's what you're facing. I think. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, so many of the leaders, the cult leaders

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Speaker 2: that we have talked about on this podcast, their origin

368
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Speaker 2: story is that they had a vision.

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Speaker 4: And I'm sure.

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Speaker 2: In many of those cases the vision was totally made up,

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Speaker 2: but in other cases it literally happened in a psychiatric hospital,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Like out in nature, because it was not nine hundred

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Speaker 1: years ago, you know, right right, Yeah, I just didn't

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Speaker 1: have words for it then. And then if they have

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Speaker 1: these ideas of reference, their brain is moving so much

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Speaker 1: more quickly than everyone else's. They're making connections that no

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Speaker 1: one else's and we're like, whoa, you're on in a

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Speaker 1: different dimension, like you're onto something.

380
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Speaker 3: Take me with you, Take me with you. Teach me

381
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Speaker 3: about my life through what you see in yours.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how did people react to you when you were

383
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Speaker 2: in it?

384
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Speaker 3: Well, I was very There was very much those who

385
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 3: are with me and those who are against me, so anytime.

386
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Speaker 3: And you find this if you research people who have

387
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Speaker 3: these episodes and people in colts who Jim Jones saying, oh,

388
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 3: they're out to attack us, like creating a real enemy,

389
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Speaker 3: a real threat. But if anybody disagreed with what I

390
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Speaker 3: was saying, they were banished from my inner circle. If

391
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Speaker 3: somebody supported it, then they were going to rise to

392
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Speaker 3: rule the universe with me. Who supported it? Well, people

393
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,400
Speaker 3: pretended to, That's the thing. They had to, like pretend.

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Speaker 3: My younger sister, bless her, she was only fifteen at

395
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Speaker 3: the time and just suited to agree with me, and

396
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Speaker 3: she was the one that walked me into the fifty

397
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Speaker 3: one to fifty. Wow. How she convinced me, I don't know.

398
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Speaker 3: She just like agreed with me. She knew that because

399
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Speaker 3: my mom was the enemy. She knew that if my

400
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,719
Speaker 3: mom drove the car, I would not get into it.

401
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,439
Speaker 3: She said, We're going to get a taxi cab and

402
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 3: I'm going to hold her hand and walk her in.

403
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Speaker 3: And it's wild because I felt safe with my little sister.

404
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,640
Speaker 3: My delusion just shaped to the hospital. So I was like, oh,

405
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:40,639
Speaker 3: this is part of the initiation, and hospital quote unquote

406
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,879
Speaker 3: means something else entirely. So you better watch the eyeballs

407
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 3: around you because they're going to be people with you

408
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 3: and people against you, and guides. And I wouldn't say demons,

409
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 3: but detractors.

410
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Speaker 1: Maybe I think you you You mentioned Devil Collective.

411
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my own horror filmmaker collect Fatal Collective.

412
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,360
Speaker 4: This is our arrivals Devil Collective.

413
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: Now go on.

414
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 3: I had Devil Collective. So there was an idea that

415
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 3: my body was measurable, that it was somehow radioactive and

416
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 3: connected to satellites, and that because my body was measurable,

417
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Speaker 3: any infringement, any negative, any naysayer, anybody who had ever

418
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 3: hurt me. It was, it was measured, and all of

419
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 3: those combined measurements marked specific people and they were the

420
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 3: Devil Collective. Wow, and my body had been collecting that data.

421
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Speaker 1: I mean, and this is a person who has never

422
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Speaker 1: thought about religion in their life, could have less and

423
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Speaker 1: now you have a Devil Collective. And I will just

424
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Speaker 1: say I would have joined it. I would have been

425
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Speaker 1: past the torch.

426
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Speaker 3: I would would I have not.

427
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 1: I would have joined the fun pet for sure.

428
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Speaker 3: Done.

429
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: And I know that you had at least one friend

430
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Speaker 1: who was like, I kind of believe you.

431
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. I had this friend Taylor, who's still my friend.

432
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 3: He's the best. He when he retells the experience, and

433
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 3: of course it was like twenty one years ago, but

434
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 3: he says, I kind of believe you, Like I got

435
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 3: it a lot. We were gone to the moon totally

436
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 3: and tell your mom took your car keys.

437
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 1: But I do just want to touch on that fact

438
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Speaker 1: that this happened to Anne after a depth of somebody,

439
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: which is so often how we see people. It's when

440
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: people join the cult, and it's almost like she's joining

441
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 1: her own. Her brain created the cult for her to

442
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 1: join to escape the pain of losing this very important person.

443
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 2: That's interesting, I was going to say, Also, it feels

444
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 2: like the episode is mimicking cults in that it's creating

445
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 2: this extremely us versus them black and white, like good

446
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 2: team or bad team type of thinking, which is like

447
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 2: a hallmark of Colts. But it's just all inside your brain.

448
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And dividing good good from evil, I would say,

449
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 3: is good from evil is a pervasive theme. And I said,

450
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 3: like a year out of this thing, and not to brag,

451
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 3: but many do not come out of these like it's

452
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 3: you know, end. Not to brag, but psychiatrists over the

453
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 3: years have told me, I've never heard of an episode

454
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 3: that lasted that long and had somebody return fully cognitive,

455
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 3: fully functional, fully operative. It definitely protects from pain, and

456
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 3: I think death is the pain of grief of that

457
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 3: is inextinguishable. So I can definitely to make his point

458
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 3: see that being a huge, huge piece of the puzzle

459
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 3: and a huge part of the belief in spirit, because

460
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 3: that was, you know, the spirit of this person who

461
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 3: was so important to me, was one of my guides

462
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 3: when I was in this episode.

463
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 4: It's like your brain was trying to protect you.

464
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

465
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

466
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 3: So a year out of this and I thought about

467
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 3: it a lot. Like what I'm also, I stay very busy,

468
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 3: so it was easy for me not to think about

469
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,239
Speaker 3: it a lot, but I did think about it, and

470
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 3: I was absolutely convinced that every religious figure in history

471
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 3: was having an episode. And there just wasn't a psychiatric industry.

472
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 3: There wasn't psychology around it. There weren't hospitals, psych wars.

473
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 3: But they came out and they said, look that tree

474
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 3: was talking to me Bush. I'm gonna tell you what

475
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 3: that tree was saying, right, And now we're all like

476
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 3: really believing that stuff. But what was that?

477
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 2: But I mean, we still very much in modern society too,

478
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 2: even with some of this now acquired knowledge about psychiatry.

479
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 2: So many people are saying that they're seeing things and

480
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 2: sounding very much like they just are having an episode.

481
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 4: But they still acquire these followers.

482
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 2: They sound very convincing, And I wonder if I wonder

483
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 2: if it's that like you can have an episode but

484
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 2: like not be power hungry, so it's more just like

485
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: you're having an episode and it's more private. Oh yeah,

486
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: isolated versus someone who's having an episode, and then they

487
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 2: have these other qualities like the need for power, the

488
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: desire to control. Like I wonder because I have to

489
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 2: imagine most people who do have psychotic breaks like aren't

490
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: aren't acquiring like amassing like large followings?

491
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, it's like there's this triangle of things

492
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: that need to be there for them to then go into.

493
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: And now everyone follow me and it is just worth

494
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: noting that, you know, and the days of or it

495
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: would be like a man would come back and be

496
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: like I just got this message from angels, and everybody'd

497
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: be like, dope, write it down, let's keep it forever.

498
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: And then a woman would be like me too, and

499
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: they'd big burners.

500
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 3: She's a weg.

501
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: It's like, really, yeah.

502
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 3: This is what the town square is for. Yeah, exactly exactly?

503
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: Did time, like your sense of time changed? Did you

504
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: feel like you were destined? Like like what was that

505
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: like like predestined?

506
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 3: Well, I want to tap back really quickly on why

507
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 3: I didn't amass a following. I don't have narcissistic qualities

508
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,719
Speaker 3: like that. I'm more on the codependent side. I am

509
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: usually attracted to more narcissistic leaders and uh, interesting. So

510
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 3: I think with if you don't have that sort of

511
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 3: narcissism and lack of empathy in terms of harming other people,

512
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 3: I don't think you a mass of following right or carelessness.

513
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 3: It's not even a desire to harm, it's just a

514
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 3: simple carelessness. Yeah. But what if people.

515
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: Were like, I love past the torch, we got to

516
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: pass the torch.

517
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 3: I don't know, that would have been wild. A lot

518
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 3: of people on friends her.

519
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it could have just if it I get

520
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: I suppose if it felt really good to have people

521
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 2: validating that.

522
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: Maybe, I mean in Mother God, she at a certain

523
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 1: point was like, no, I'm not actually a leader, Like

524
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: I want to stop this now. A Mother God is

525
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: a doc on HBO, and they were like, you can't

526
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: like her. Followers kind of became more powerful than the leader.

527
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: I know. So I've seen instances of that happening as well.

528
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: It's it's very it's a very interesting landscape.

529
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: That also happens in the Source family. Oh about that

530
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 3: They go through the whole thing started in a health

531
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 3: food sure and at the very end, when he's dying

532
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 3: sorry spoiler alert, he's like, wait, I'm not God, but

533
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 3: the whole they'd lived in mansions worn all white like

534
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 3: it was the original, and were they like, yes, you are,

535
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't remember. We should watch it.

536
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: I mean I think that a lot of people maintained

537
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: that belief. But yeah, I mean we you know, you

538
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: see that happen a lot even with we. I feel

539
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: like I keep talking about Vickram Gandhi. I talked about

540
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: him recently, but a previous guest, a very early guest

541
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: we had on on the show, posed as a guru,

542
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 2: and then when he revealed that he was just faking

543
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 2: it as an experiment, people still believed and thought it

544
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: was part of the lesson, you know, like people really

545
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 2: will once you're in a certain amount. It's like it's

546
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: very hard to undo beliefs like that, especially when you've

547
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 2: devoted so much life and energy to it. Yeah, did

548
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: you ever question your own thoughts? Like, did it ever

549
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: occur to you that maybe your reality wasn't the true reality?

550
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 3: Well, eventually I had to sort of succumb to the

551
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 3: medicinal psychiatric intervention and also psychotherapy. In this I went

552
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 3: to this second hospital in Houston, Texas. After I was

553
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 3: at Cedar's. Cedars used to have a psychiatric hospital called Aliens,

554
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 3: but it's since been shut down. Aliens Aliens, Yeah, wow,

555
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 3: that's whoever put the money in for it.

556
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: So the suntile scientology thing to me.

557
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: So when I was in I was in Houston for

558
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 3: at Meninger for three months, and by the second or

559
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 3: third month, I had a therapist that I really trusted.

560
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 3: Her name was Cynthia. She always wore a white coat

561
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 3: and she has short red hair and a pointing nose

562
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 3: and glasses. I like this visual. Yeah, she just keeps

563
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: getting more intricate, and she made me feel safe enough

564
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 3: where she started to quite reality test, which is what

565
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 3: it's called clinically and check my belief system. And then

566
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 3: what I started doing is so basically a belief I

567
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 3: had was that I could change the weather with my hand,

568
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 3: and that I was connected to squirrels and other animals

569
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 3: around the property because Meninger's like a has a larger

570
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 3: nature situation, and there it's not indoors as much, well

571
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 3: it is indoors, but anyway, there are squirrels. That's the

572
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 3: whole point score. And I remember having to train myself

573
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 3: like that squirrel just ran over to that door, not

574
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 3: because you're also going to the door. That's not why,

575
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: it's just going to the door. And then one of

576
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 3: the code words that I thought this woman would use

577
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 3: through other people when she was jumping bodies was coca cola.

578
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 3: So any and people say coca cola all the damn time.

579
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 3: So anytime someone said coca cola, she's here, you know.

580
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 3: And so I remember having to say, Okay, that person

581
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: just said coca cola or coke. Obviously people aren't walking

582
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 3: around saying.

583
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 4: Coca cola, but some people are.

584
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: They don't they yeah, so long, coca cola, Yeah yeah,

585
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: And saying Okay, that person just wants a coke. They

586
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 3: just want to coke. They're not sending me. It's not

587
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 3: her in them sending a message. But I thought what

588
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 3: was happening in a ghost with Woopy Goldberg was like

589
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 3: happening to everybody around.

590
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: I don't I haven't seen ghosts inside.

591
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 3: So she's like a medium and she really channels dead people.

592
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 3: But mine was about a live people, Like in a

593
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 3: live person that was powerful enough to be hopping bodies. Wow,

594
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: that's so scary. Like I'll tell you a story. Right

595
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 3: before the day before I was hospitalized, I ran away

596
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 3: from home, and it was really wild because I knew

597
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 3: that I was going to be picked up by my

598
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 3: angel fleet. I knew that it was time to leave.

599
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 3: And it was six am, and I packed a maroon

600
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 3: Duffel bag with my laptop, a Puma hoodie, and a

601
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 3: few of my journals and a pen. And I went

602
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 3: to the front window and I saw a gold Mercedes

603
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,479
Speaker 3: pull up to the house next door, and I was like, Oh,

604
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 3: that's my ride. I went out of the house, I

605
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: went to the car. I opened the trunk. The man

606
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 3: was in the car. I opened the trunk, I put

607
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 3: the duffel. I put the Duffel in the trunk. I

608
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 3: got in the car. I had a tape of my music.

609
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 3: I like, had a cassette tape. I was like, we

610
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 3: will be listening to my music. And I got in

611
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: the car with this stranger and he took off with me.

612
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 3: He took off with me. What He drove me all

613
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 3: around town and he had two different cell phones and

614
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 3: he was speaking Hebrew in one of them, and he

615
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 3: was speaking English and the other. And I was like, okay,

616
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 3: he's alerting the teams. I'm he has the lute, Like

617
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 3: we're off to the races, drove me all over town.

618
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,479
Speaker 3: The last place he took me was this apartment in

619
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 3: North Hollywood, some contractor named Schlowmi. He probably was like

620
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 3: thirty two at the time wife Peter Grease back hair.

621
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 3: And in order to get into his apartment, I had

622
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 3: to walk through the parking lot and there was a

623
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 3: sign that said you are being filmed. And I thought

624
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 3: that like my head was being moved to see what

625
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: it needed to be seen by this woman, Like she

626
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 3: was not only controlling the people around me, but she

627
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 3: was controlling my head. So she had me look to

628
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 3: the sign that said you are being filmed. So I

629
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 3: was like, Okay, whatever is about to happen is like

630
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 3: really going to be broadcast, so I just have to

631
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 3: know that. So go into Shlomi's apartment. He had like

632
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 3: a bong and he had all this weed and he

633
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 3: was trying to hook up with me, and I remember

634
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 3: being like, oh my god, she's in his body. So

635
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 3: I leaned forward and I was like, listen, I know

636
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 3: you're in there. I can't hook up with you like

637
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 3: in this form, so just like wait, but like I

638
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 3: know you're in there, and he's looking back at me,

639
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 3: like what is this chick.

640
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: Talking about He's like, I've never been out weirded before.

641
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 3: It's taking the cake.

642
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, He's like never, he's never been scared when he

643
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 1: pulls this creepy move on the kid and you're like

644
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: freaking him out.

645
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I love that for you, Yeah, I love it.

646
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 2: I'm also stuck on why did this man think you

647
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 2: were entering his car?

648
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,439
Speaker 3: I don't know, and I will never know. My mother

649
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 3: and sister found me because he was an acquaintance of

650
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 3: my neighbor, and so they ended up showing up at

651
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 3: Shlomy's and they were at the door. They had been crying.

652
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 3: They like thought I was dead. They had no idea

653
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 3: where I was going to go. They had no idea

654
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 3: if they'd ever seen me again. Their eyes were glazed.

655
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 3: They seemed to be operating very slowly compared to me,

656
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, the evil force has them.

657
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 3: But I ended up going with them. And I also

658
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 3: thought that I was on the way to my wedding

659
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 3: to this woman. It wasn't just connecting with her. I

660
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 3: was like going to get married to her. I was eighteen,

661
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 3: it was legal. I was going to get married. And

662
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 3: so mirror Ball Sarah McLaughlin. Mirror Ball was playing on

663
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 3: my mom asterio great record, and I thought it was

664
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: a broadcast from my wedding venue in Malaburma.

665
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: You have a lot of storylines going on at once

666
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: and you were just able to follow them off flawlessly.

667
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: I have to point that out.

668
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: And this is the same girl from your acting camp.

669
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: Did you ever tell her yeah she reacts?

670
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 3: What did she say? Well? It was hard because I

671
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 3: had such a belief in the power in her power wow.

672
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 3: And it was the year after I was completely back,

673
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 3: and I found her through a guy. I was like

674
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 3: working at a cafe and a guy came in who

675
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 3: knew her, and I said, are you still in touch

676
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 3: with her? Let's call her Fairy Song? Oh yeah? And

677
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 3: I was like, are you in touch with Fairy And

678
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 3: he was like, yeah, actually I am. Do you want

679
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 3: her number? And so I ended up having a conversation

680
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 3: with her and she so was not the person taking

681
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 3: over the world with me who I thought she was,

682
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: And so that was a tiny little death, but I

683
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 3: think it was an important conversation.

684
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: I'm still so curious about the reality testing piece of it,

685
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: because I imagine there are probably lots of people listening, who

686
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: have dealt with someone who might be in some kind

687
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: of episode and you know it's it's encouraging to know

688
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 2: it's possible to come out of it. How much of that, like,

689
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: do you attribute most of that to having someone you

690
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: trust as like someone who is really like kind and

691
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: gentle as your mental health, like as your therapist.

692
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think if someone is listens long enough to understand,

693
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 3: like be passive enough to understand what the person believes,

694
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 3: so really hear what they think, who's after them, what

695
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 3: they're in control over and fit into their storyline. And

696
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 3: as long as you're saying absolutely yes, end you know yes,

697
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 3: and agreeing with everything they say. And that, incidentally, is

698
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: what therapists are trained to do with delusional like delusional disorders,

699
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 3: because if they disagree with the person, the person's going

700
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 3: to leave treatment.

701
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: Right. That's so interesting because it's very similar to how

702
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 2: you would talk to somebody who is in a cult

703
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 2: and is believing in this cult reality.

704
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: You can't be like you're an idiot, shut up or leaving.

705
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 2: You'd be like, oh, yeah, so tell me more about

706
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: your beliefs.

707
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 4: Why do you feel that way?

708
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 2: And then like over time, if you can have just

709
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 2: understanding conversations, like you could maybe start asking questions, yeah, yeah,

710
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: without attacking what the belief is. And it's just so

711
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 2: interesting that that tactic is kind of the same for

712
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: both of those things.

713
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's the same in recovery too, Like if

714
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 3: somebody leaves a recovery group, like a twelve step group,

715
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 3: the wisest advice always is to not cast that person out,

716
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,439
Speaker 3: not cast judgment, be the door if they ever want

717
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 3: to return, or if they ever want to send somebody else, Like, definitely,

718
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 3: I think that cooperation is important.

719
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 2: Like would she ask a question like if the squirrel

720
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 2: is listening to you, can you control it right now?

721
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 2: Can you do?

722
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: Like?

723
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 2: Would there be stuff where you were kind of like

724
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 2: forced to contend with like your ideas being proven wrong?

725
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: Why I wish I remembered Cynthia. I wish I remembered

726
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 3: more of what she said. I don't really remember anything,

727
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 3: only that I really liked her, I really really trusted her.

728
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 3: I really liked her. So I also think medication was helping.

729
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 3: Sure I have I know and hear all the time,

730
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 3: which is wild because I've never, like since then, I

731
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 3: have never been disobedient when it comes to psychiatric medication,

732
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 3: I think, what could be scarier? But I never hear

733
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 3: about people staying on their medication, do you know what

734
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 3: I mean? Thought you all the time, like he went

735
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 3: off as meds, she went off her meds, like wild

736
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 3: And then they have episodes whereas I have the experience

737
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 3: of the medication actually really working, slowing down my brain

738
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 3: from making certain connections.

739
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: I mean, now we haven't we have this part of

740
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: the story where it's like, now you have to deconstruct

741
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: your beliefs from this over arching belief that your brain

742
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: has made, and I am wondering what that feels like?

743
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 3: So horrible. I would think a lot of people would

744
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 3: stay ongoing in cults, and especially two by twos for example,

745
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 3: because it's home, it's identity, it's community.

746
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 2: In your in your for you as well, like.

747
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm applying it to cults. For me, it was

748
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 3: like a nightmare. I mean, to go from thinking you're

749
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 3: a profit to serving muffins at a bakery is really something.

750
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 3: It's very upsetting. So I was depressed for a very

751
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: long time afterwards.

752
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so many people in cults are told

753
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: that they're chosen, you know, I was told I was

754
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 2: chosen like one of like you know, five chosen people

755
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 2: for the end of the world and so like like

756
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 2: obviously very different context, but like similar having to sort

757
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 2: of reframe myself in the world as like just a person. Yeah,

758
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 2: you know, from like being Harry Potter to being just

759
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 2: a person.

760
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

761
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: Is heart it's it's that's hard for and I think

762
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 2: that's so much of why it is difficult to leave

763
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 2: any belief system, but especially when there's community involved, especially

764
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: if their finance is involved.

765
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 1: And Lola reminds me of like Lola got specific OCD help.

766
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 3: How do you say this.

767
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 4: Like, oh, like therapy. Yeah, yeah, so it.

768
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: Reminds me of how because I also went to the

769
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: place you were going because I was like, I also

770
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: have a CD, but I feel like you did the

771
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: work a little bit deeper than I did. I had

772
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: a really embarrassing thing happened with my therapist or with

773
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: the first time I talked to her. I sat down

774
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: on my curtains and the curtain rod fell down and

775
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: hit me on that and we were on zoom and

776
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: like after that, I just I was too humiliated to

777
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: like really connecte.

778
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, but through.

779
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: Your explanation of how going. It was just like sitting

780
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: in the uncomfortability of having a thought and knowing it

781
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: might not be true even though it's there. Can you

782
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: say a little bit more about that?

783
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I had I have had to do

784
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: so much work on like noticing a thought when it

785
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 2: comes into my head and instead of believing it immediately,

786
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 2: we're like looking at it and being like, Okay.

787
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 4: That's a thought.

788
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: That's a thought I'm having about something that might be true,

789
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: and also it might not, and I am going to

790
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: just allow that uncertainty to be here rather than jumping

791
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 2: to believing it and trying to react to it and

792
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: defend against it and do some kind of mental ritual

793
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 2: to stop the thing from happening. Yeah. And for me,

794
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,479
Speaker 2: actually it was I was initially it changes. The themes change,

795
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,399
Speaker 2: but initially it was a fear of losing my mind,

796
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 2: and so I was like constantly on guard against losing,

797
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 2: you know, losing my mind. I'm gonna lose my mind.

798
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 2: I got I gotta be hypervigil my mind so I

799
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: don't lose my mind.

800
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:02,240
Speaker 3: Wow.

801
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 4: And I had to.

802
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was doing a lot of exposure and response

803
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: prevention therapy around like Okay, maybe I'll lose my mind.

804
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 2: Maybe not, And I'm going to just allow that uncertainty

805
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: to exist.

806
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: Uncertainty, uncertainty, that cognitive dissonance. Those are the reasons that

807
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: cults exist. Is to get away from those.

808
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 2: Things, to provide certainty, because it feels so much better,

809
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: much better.

810
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: And so yeah, just knowing that, like that uncomfortable feeling

811
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: that a lot of people are probably having to set

812
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: with right now is uh the hardest work. And it's

813
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: good work, and that's important work, but it.

814
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 3: Is not easy.

815
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: And and I can't even imagine where you had, like

816
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: how much work that must have taken.

817
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 3: It's a lot of work. That's a lot of work.

818
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 3: Well it's hard, you know, I think for anybody in

819
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: my own experience, the internal world, the relationship with yourself,

820
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 3: you know, especially I had an incredibly traumatic childhood. I

821
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 3: did not have have safe, healthy adult mirrors around me,

822
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 3: so I became a parentified child and that doesn't allow

823
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 3: you to develop the healthiest relationship with self. And it's

824
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 3: a lot easier, especially nowadays, where stimulation is just on

825
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 3: ten and you want somebody to say, Okay, which shampoo

826
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 3: do I use? So like it's too much information nobody

827
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 3: needs to even know all this streamlining sense of purpose,

828
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 3: streamlining community and belief systems. Like it's so much easier,

829
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 3: though way more painful in the long run, to depend

830
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 3: on these external sources of power. Whether it's a romantic

831
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 3: relationship where you have a narcissistic lover, or you're in

832
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 3: a recovery group with a narcissistic sponsor, or you're working

833
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 3: under a sociopathic boss who promises the promotion, or you're

834
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 3: in a cult. This is this is the source of

835
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 3: like all pain I think is that people aren't willing

836
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 3: to go internally first, like you did to say, I

837
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 3: don't want to lose my mind, Like what is a

838
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 3: thought to Lola? But you know, what is this interior world.

839
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 3: It's it's very hard to do that. And if you

840
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 3: do work on your interior world, you might get distracted,

841
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 3: you by somebody who's you know, and it's kind of boring.

842
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 5: That's exactly what it's boring, hur And like there's just

843
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 5: this you know, there's just like the hottest person over

844
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 5: there that you could go get in a toxic relationship with.

845
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: There's this little thought in your brain that you could

846
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: really go wild with, And like have some fun with chaos. Yeah. Yeah,

847
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 1: it's fucking boring, and it's necessary.

848
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, so necessary. It's we're all signs point like when

849
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:51,240
Speaker 3: you yeah.

850
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 2: And to like it's boring, but then after the boring,

851
00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 2: it's rewarding and fulfilling and it feels healthy and you

852
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 2: feel like, yeah, there's happiness on the other side of

853
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 2: the boredom.

854
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's important side of.

855
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: Your like, it takes a lot of hard work to

856
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:10,919
Speaker 1: get like a certain part of your brain to turn

857
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: back on. Yeah, you know, and then once it does,

858
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: you're not as bored because you're dealing with a different deck.

859
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 1: And I don't know. We always come back to this,

860
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: the fact that I believe in a bunch of spiritual shit.

861
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: Where did Where did you land with all of these things?

862
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 3: You know? I think sort of back to being very

863
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 3: practical and three dimensionally bound, I think is where I

864
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 3: returned to, which is a little bit unfortunate that my

865
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 3: experiences with the spiritual realm have to be linked to

866
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 3: psychosis and hospitalizations and handcuffs and all that. I Yeah,

867
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 3: I think it's it's I really try to stay in

868
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 3: the present. I try to stay in what is and

869
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 3: what is three dimensional what is you know, I believe

870
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 3: obviously in the greater forces of the universe. I can't

871
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,879
Speaker 3: predict what's going to happen in thirty minutes from now,

872
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 3: and I know that most big things in my life

873
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 3: do come out of left field. And was that karmic contract?

874
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 3: Was that you know? Whatever it is? I believe that

875
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 3: there are greater forces at play, of course, but as

876
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 3: far as God and like personal higher powers that have

877
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 3: my best interests in mind. And I think that goes

878
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 3: along with relationship with self. I think it's sort of

879
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 3: a lifelong journey. Yeah, to really because you can believe

880
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 3: in God, But then is that relationship personal to you?

881
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 3: Like where is that source of power in your life?

882
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 3: I think that's a lifelong journey. I love that.

883
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, are we missing anything about your experience, your journey,

884
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: your your takebacks from the other side.

885
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 3: My takebacks, my takeaways from the other side. Yeah. I

886
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:05,919
Speaker 3: think everybody should stand their medication. I think if your

887
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 3: friend or family member or someone you're close to is

888
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:16,800
Speaker 3: experiencing a disconnect from reality, is experiencing delusions of grandeur,

889
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 3: you have to work with them because the moment you

890
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 3: butt up against whatever it is, they're believing you're eliminated

891
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 3: from a potential treatment conduit or team, So that I

892
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 3: think is the most important thing for anyone listening.

893
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: But at some point you have to show your hand

894
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: and be like, but maybe not right.

895
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 3: Well, I think you want to get the person into treatment,

896
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 3: right like, you want to get them hospitalized.

897
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 4: Essentially, rather than trying to or get them to a doctor.

898
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is such wonderful information. It's linking so many

899
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 1: things together for me. I don't know about Yolola, but.

900
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 2: Would you say that you're experiencing ideas of reference?

901
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: Ideas of reference?

902
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 3: No, do you have a cult to start?

903
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 2: Yes?

904
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: Probably, No, it's it's just really hitting home for me too.

905
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: Of that the experience is that I'm seeing of people

906
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: leaving these high control groups and how they're immediately dropped

907
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: into depressive episodes. They feel a loss of meaning, a

908
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 1: loss of you know, beauty in the world. And there's

909
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,959
Speaker 1: just so many I think we've touched upon, like ten

910
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 1: parallels between what you experienced and what people starting cults,

911
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,240
Speaker 1: leaving cults, and cults, family members watching people in cults

912
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: all can can help. So thank you so much for

913
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: being our guests powerful information.

914
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me it's been a pleasure.

915
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: Wow.

916
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 3: Wow wewa wawa we wa.

917
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: Indeed that was fascinating, I mean, totally leading thought edge

918
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: stuff for me, stuff I've never thought of before.

919
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 2: M m hmm. Exciting. So the point you had brought

920
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 2: up earlier was about why we think that it tends

921
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: toward religious delicious episodes?

922
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 1: Episodes tend to go towards religious delusions was the question

923
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 1: that popped into my mind. And you seem to have

924
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: an idea about it, as do I, So why.

925
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 3: Don't you go first?

926
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 2: I mean a couple thoughts, not from an educated perspective.

927
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's a I'm sure there's a mental health

928
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: professional who has or a neurologist who has a better

929
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 2: sense of it. But my just like initial thoughts were like,

930
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 2: we actually see a lot of people like people who

931
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: are in a paranoid delusion will often be talking about

932
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 2: the government and.

933
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 4: Not necessarily religion.

934
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 2: I wonder how much of it comes from whatever your

935
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 2: particular framework is growing up and that just gets activated.

936
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's like the government and God are a

937
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: symbolic thing of control.

938
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, both of those would be powers like bigger

939
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: than yourself. So if you're feeling these overwhelming emotions and

940
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 2: thoughts like it's got to attach to some kind of

941
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 2: greater power. I would imagine. It also made me think

942
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: about this episode we did a long time ago that

943
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 2: I actually think was fascinating, maybe a bit heady for

944
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 2: anyone who wants to listen to it. It was with Yuval

945
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 2: Laur called Further Awe and hyper Religiosity, and what we

946
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: talked about was temporal lobe epilepsy and how that's a

947
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 2: particular kind of seizure in the brain that for some

948
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 2: reason leads to often leads to religious experiences. But I

949
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 2: can't remember the exact mechanism, and we probably don't actually know,

950
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 2: but it has something to do with the fact that

951
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 2: it gives you this really really heightened emotional experience that

952
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 2: feels like it must be spiritual because of how heightened

953
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 2: and intense it is. It's like a peak experience. It

954
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 2: is a peak experience.

955
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: I will also throw into the chat this book that

956
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with.

957
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 3: It was this.

958
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: Book by a woman who was a neurologist at Harvard.

959
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: Her name is doctor Jill Bolt or Bote, and she

960
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: had a aneurysm and her basically ego collapsed and she

961
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: was living in this bizarre state of oneness with all

962
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: that is. Oh wait, what's it called, I'm trying to

963
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 1: find Okay, it's called My Stroke of Insight? Oh yes, yes, yes,

964
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: And you know to me, as we all know, I

965
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 1: am a little bit more prone to the spiritual side

966
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 1: of life. So I do think that there are spiritual

967
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: explanations for some things. And you know, I don't know.

968
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: It's a mystery to me, but I strongly recommend reading

969
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 1: My Stroke of Insight.

970
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:30,760
Speaker 4: It is interesting how.

971
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: When you stimulate certain parts of the brain you have

972
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 2: a spiritual experience. And I think mostrologists woul attribute that

973
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 2: to the feelings that it produces.

974
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: Actually experienced it, and what's hard takeaway that there's something

975
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 1: really to it.

976
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 3: I'm not.

977
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: We're accessing a different part of our brain. That's important.

978
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 2: So I'm very curious to read the book and see

979
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 2: through through the lens of how I think if my

980
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 2: takeaway would be she had a very.

981
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: Buddhist take on it, and very like if you're using

982
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 1: this part of your mind, like.

983
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 3: I'll have to read that.

984
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,399
Speaker 4: She wasn't saying she's magically accessing.

985
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: No, she was saying that she is completely aware that

986
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: we're all one, you know.

987
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 2: So if there were a way for us all to

988
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 2: access that feeling because of something that's being stimulated in

989
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 2: our rain, that would be great.

990
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Anne for speaking to us

991
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: about this, because that was very vulnerable and very thought provoking.

992
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:27,320
Speaker 2: Indeed.

993
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, if y'all like the podcast, please go rate

994
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: us five stars and leave us a good review. It's

995
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,720
Speaker 1: the kindest thing you can do to help support us.

996
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: If you don't like the podcast, do not don't review us,

997
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: don't reveal.

998
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 3: It to us.

999
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 2: It's annoying to do.

1000
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 4: Why would you do that?

1001
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: A troll?

1002
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 2: You are also go buy our merchant bitt ly slash

1003
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 2: trust Me Merch please and we can't wait to see

1004
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 2: you here again next week, and as always, remember to

1005
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 2: follow your gut, watch out for red flags, and never

1006
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 2: ever trust me.

1007
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 3: Bye.

1008
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1009
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator, with special thanks to Stacy Para and our

1010
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 2: theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1011
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1012
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1013
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1014
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 2: I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1015
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1016
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1017
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.