1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:26,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin, and I think we maybe have a couple of 2 00:00:26,316 --> 00:00:28,476 Speaker 1: minutes for question. I'm looking at Katie to as a 3 00:00:28,476 --> 00:00:30,916 Speaker 1: happiness expert, I give a lot of public talks on 4 00:00:30,956 --> 00:00:33,356 Speaker 1: the science of well being. I've kind of lost track 5 00:00:33,396 --> 00:00:36,236 Speaker 1: of exactly how many I've done, but at this point 6 00:00:36,356 --> 00:00:38,636 Speaker 1: it must be in the hundreds. At the end of 7 00:00:38,676 --> 00:00:40,796 Speaker 1: every lecture, I usually try to leave at least a 8 00:00:40,796 --> 00:00:43,556 Speaker 1: few minutes to take questions from the audience. Hello, you 9 00:00:43,596 --> 00:00:45,756 Speaker 1: said you spent a lot of time with the students 10 00:00:46,196 --> 00:00:50,236 Speaker 1: in the correlation of too much alcohol use and nightlife 11 00:00:50,316 --> 00:00:52,996 Speaker 1: not enough sleep. So what did you find there? Yeah, 12 00:00:52,996 --> 00:00:55,476 Speaker 1: so the question is about those Q and A sessions. 13 00:00:55,836 --> 00:00:58,876 Speaker 1: They're my favorite part of speaking. I can pretty much 14 00:00:58,876 --> 00:01:01,716 Speaker 1: guarantee this someone will ask a question that'll make me 15 00:01:01,796 --> 00:01:04,716 Speaker 1: stop and think again about the challenges we all face 16 00:01:04,876 --> 00:01:08,356 Speaker 1: to become happier. We've been focusing on the younger generation, 17 00:01:08,476 --> 00:01:11,636 Speaker 1: but a lot of service indicate that as you get older, 18 00:01:11,676 --> 00:01:13,956 Speaker 1: you get happier. Are we? And because I love these 19 00:01:14,036 --> 00:01:16,716 Speaker 1: Q and A sessions so much, I've always thought it 20 00:01:16,756 --> 00:01:19,156 Speaker 1: was a shame that listeners to this podcast have to 21 00:01:19,196 --> 00:01:22,196 Speaker 1: miss out on them, and so I decided to change that. 22 00:01:22,716 --> 00:01:25,116 Speaker 1: I put out a request for any and all Happiness 23 00:01:25,196 --> 00:01:28,716 Speaker 1: Lab listener questions on my Twitter and Instagram feeds, and 24 00:01:28,796 --> 00:01:31,316 Speaker 1: immediately I had a ton of great ones flooding in 25 00:01:32,036 --> 00:01:35,076 Speaker 1: questions like this one. Hey, So my name is Nikki. 26 00:01:35,316 --> 00:01:37,436 Speaker 1: I love the Happiness Lab. I've been listening for a 27 00:01:37,436 --> 00:01:40,476 Speaker 1: few years now, and my question is are we born 28 00:01:40,556 --> 00:01:43,756 Speaker 1: to work or are we born to live? Seems like 29 00:01:43,756 --> 00:01:46,396 Speaker 1: it should have a simple answer, right, I mean, obviously 30 00:01:46,436 --> 00:01:49,356 Speaker 1: we're born to live, but we don't always act like it. 31 00:01:49,876 --> 00:01:52,236 Speaker 1: I'm going through my own work life transition right now. 32 00:01:52,676 --> 00:01:55,036 Speaker 1: Over the last year, I've sensed the signs of burnout 33 00:01:55,076 --> 00:01:57,796 Speaker 1: creeping into my day to day life. So I decided 34 00:01:57,836 --> 00:01:59,396 Speaker 1: to take a year off from a lot of my 35 00:01:59,436 --> 00:02:02,516 Speaker 1: academic duties at Yale so I can focus on other 36 00:02:02,556 --> 00:02:07,236 Speaker 1: projects like this podcast. And so Nikki's question really jumped 37 00:02:07,236 --> 00:02:09,756 Speaker 1: out at me. To help me respond to it and 38 00:02:09,836 --> 00:02:12,636 Speaker 1: to get some advice for myself, I decided to recruit 39 00:02:12,676 --> 00:02:14,716 Speaker 1: an expert on how we can spend our time in 40 00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:17,676 Speaker 1: ways that nourish us both on and off the clock. 41 00:02:18,596 --> 00:02:21,476 Speaker 1: I am Cassie Holmes, and I am a professor at 42 00:02:21,596 --> 00:02:25,436 Speaker 1: UCLA's Anderson's School of Management, and I wrote the book 43 00:02:25,516 --> 00:02:29,356 Speaker 1: Happier Hour, How to beat distraction, expand your time and 44 00:02:29,476 --> 00:02:33,436 Speaker 1: focus on what matters most. So sit back, relax, and 45 00:02:33,516 --> 00:02:36,156 Speaker 1: get ready to learn how to avoid getting two worked 46 00:02:36,236 --> 00:02:40,156 Speaker 1: up about work. You're listening to the Happiness Labs Listener 47 00:02:40,276 --> 00:02:48,156 Speaker 1: Questions Special Edition with Me Doctor Laurie Santos. Happiness Lab 48 00:02:48,196 --> 00:02:50,676 Speaker 1: listener Nicki Walker was kind enough to join me and 49 00:02:50,756 --> 00:02:53,756 Speaker 1: Cassie for recording and to start things off. I wanted 50 00:02:53,796 --> 00:02:56,156 Speaker 1: to know what made Nikki ask about work life balance 51 00:02:56,236 --> 00:02:59,396 Speaker 1: in the first place. So Nikki, I absolutely loved this 52 00:02:59,516 --> 00:03:02,356 Speaker 1: question because I think it's something that I've struggled with too. 53 00:03:02,636 --> 00:03:04,916 Speaker 1: Write how much of our identity is built into our 54 00:03:04,956 --> 00:03:07,236 Speaker 1: work versus built into the rest of our lives? Do 55 00:03:07,276 --> 00:03:10,676 Speaker 1: you want to expand on Why you that question? Yeah? 56 00:03:10,676 --> 00:03:14,076 Speaker 1: It really started during COVID for me, after about a 57 00:03:14,156 --> 00:03:17,036 Speaker 1: year of working from home and having just life turned 58 00:03:17,116 --> 00:03:19,076 Speaker 1: upside down. I sort of just raised my head one 59 00:03:19,116 --> 00:03:21,356 Speaker 1: day and I was like, what am I doing here? 60 00:03:21,596 --> 00:03:23,836 Speaker 1: Why am I still doing this? Do I really enjoy 61 00:03:23,916 --> 00:03:26,716 Speaker 1: what I'm doing? I feel like I have been idling, 62 00:03:27,076 --> 00:03:30,916 Speaker 1: wanting certain things, wanting to pursue a certain lifestyle, which 63 00:03:30,956 --> 00:03:34,036 Speaker 1: for me is to be closer to nature and closer 64 00:03:34,076 --> 00:03:36,996 Speaker 1: to the outdoors that I love my mountain bike a lot, 65 00:03:37,076 --> 00:03:39,796 Speaker 1: hype with my dog, and so I quit my job. 66 00:03:40,076 --> 00:03:45,596 Speaker 1: I actually just finished moving from Washington, d C. To Denver, Colorado. 67 00:03:45,876 --> 00:03:47,916 Speaker 1: It's something that I've wanted to do for a while. 68 00:03:48,156 --> 00:03:52,276 Speaker 1: I call myself a recovering type a person. I think 69 00:03:52,276 --> 00:03:54,396 Speaker 1: you're not alone. I think so many people are having 70 00:03:54,436 --> 00:03:56,796 Speaker 1: this question during COVID. This is why we're going through 71 00:03:56,796 --> 00:03:59,596 Speaker 1: the great resignation, this question of should we all jump 72 00:03:59,596 --> 00:04:02,716 Speaker 1: off the business treadmill? If we do, what does that mean? 73 00:04:02,876 --> 00:04:04,716 Speaker 1: And it's one of the reasons I'm so excited to 74 00:04:04,756 --> 00:04:08,116 Speaker 1: have Cassie here today because in some ways her whole 75 00:04:08,116 --> 00:04:10,196 Speaker 1: book is about a lot of these questions, but also 76 00:04:10,276 --> 00:04:12,876 Speaker 1: in part because Cassie, it sounds like you went through 77 00:04:12,916 --> 00:04:15,236 Speaker 1: the same kind of should I completely jump off the 78 00:04:15,276 --> 00:04:18,236 Speaker 1: business treadmill too? This was the story that started your book. 79 00:04:18,276 --> 00:04:19,916 Speaker 1: Do you want to tell me about that moment, that 80 00:04:19,956 --> 00:04:24,876 Speaker 1: scary moment. Yes, I absolutely was about to jump off 81 00:04:24,956 --> 00:04:28,396 Speaker 1: the business train early in my career. So I was 82 00:04:28,476 --> 00:04:32,556 Speaker 1: an assistant professor at Worton and I had a new 83 00:04:32,596 --> 00:04:35,836 Speaker 1: baby at home. I have a husband who I love 84 00:04:35,956 --> 00:04:39,276 Speaker 1: very much friends who I wanted to spend time with, 85 00:04:39,476 --> 00:04:42,996 Speaker 1: and I was on the late night train home because 86 00:04:43,036 --> 00:04:45,916 Speaker 1: despite having a four month old, I agreed to give 87 00:04:45,956 --> 00:04:49,076 Speaker 1: a talk at Columbia's Business School and it was like 88 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:51,876 Speaker 1: this crazy, hectic day. I'm like waking up in a 89 00:04:51,956 --> 00:04:55,316 Speaker 1: hotel room, rushing from meeting to meeting, and it was 90 00:04:55,436 --> 00:04:59,276 Speaker 1: on the last train that would get me home. I 91 00:04:59,316 --> 00:05:03,876 Speaker 1: was just exhausted, and I was like, can I actually 92 00:05:04,396 --> 00:05:09,116 Speaker 1: do this? All the business at work, trying to get 93 00:05:09,156 --> 00:05:13,316 Speaker 1: actual work done amidst meetings and emails, and then also 94 00:05:13,876 --> 00:05:18,276 Speaker 1: wanting to be present with my family and with my friends. 95 00:05:18,636 --> 00:05:20,996 Speaker 1: And that's not to mention when you get home from 96 00:05:20,996 --> 00:05:22,956 Speaker 1: work all the work that has to happen to keep 97 00:05:22,956 --> 00:05:25,956 Speaker 1: your household going. And I was about to give it 98 00:05:25,996 --> 00:05:29,076 Speaker 1: all up. I'm like it's too much, and I'm like, Okay, 99 00:05:29,276 --> 00:05:32,076 Speaker 1: I want to figure this out because it's not just 100 00:05:32,236 --> 00:05:36,356 Speaker 1: me that has this experience, and being a social psychologist, 101 00:05:36,836 --> 00:05:40,676 Speaker 1: we can put these questions of how we're feeling and 102 00:05:40,756 --> 00:05:44,836 Speaker 1: the choices we make to test. And so I was like, okay, 103 00:05:44,996 --> 00:05:47,396 Speaker 1: if I were to quit, so that I would have 104 00:05:47,676 --> 00:05:50,836 Speaker 1: endless hours a day to spend exactly how I wanted 105 00:05:51,356 --> 00:05:55,556 Speaker 1: would I be happier? And so I recruited some wonderful 106 00:05:55,716 --> 00:05:59,796 Speaker 1: colleagues summers or Strief and how Hirshfield to address this question. 107 00:05:59,876 --> 00:06:03,156 Speaker 1: And we looked at huge data set American Time You 108 00:06:03,276 --> 00:06:07,916 Speaker 1: Survey data, which basically captures how individuals spend their days 109 00:06:08,076 --> 00:06:10,396 Speaker 1: as well as how sad as they feel. And we 110 00:06:10,436 --> 00:06:14,676 Speaker 1: wanted to see what's that relationship between how much discretionary 111 00:06:14,716 --> 00:06:17,596 Speaker 1: time or free time one has in their day and 112 00:06:17,716 --> 00:06:21,196 Speaker 1: how satisfied are they overall, so that I could know 113 00:06:21,636 --> 00:06:24,556 Speaker 1: if I had a lot more discustionary time, would I 114 00:06:24,636 --> 00:06:27,556 Speaker 1: be happier? You're like trying to find the empirical sweet 115 00:06:27,596 --> 00:06:30,556 Speaker 1: spot of not full jumping off the business treadmill. But 116 00:06:30,596 --> 00:06:32,596 Speaker 1: where do I want to be in the balance of 117 00:06:32,796 --> 00:06:36,276 Speaker 1: work versus feeling overwhelmed? Yeah, And I didn't actually even 118 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:39,076 Speaker 1: know that there would be a sweet spot. I thought 119 00:06:39,396 --> 00:06:42,716 Speaker 1: it would just be like more time is better, more 120 00:06:42,796 --> 00:06:45,116 Speaker 1: free time is better. But what we've found in the 121 00:06:45,236 --> 00:06:47,876 Speaker 1: data is that there is a sweet spot. There is 122 00:06:47,916 --> 00:06:50,476 Speaker 1: such thing as too little time in our data set, 123 00:06:50,516 --> 00:06:52,996 Speaker 1: At least less in about two hours a day of 124 00:06:53,116 --> 00:06:56,316 Speaker 1: discretionary time is associated with less happiness. But what I 125 00:06:56,396 --> 00:07:00,596 Speaker 1: didn't know, and is really important as we're making these 126 00:07:00,756 --> 00:07:03,076 Speaker 1: decisions of do we quit, is that there is such 127 00:07:03,156 --> 00:07:06,076 Speaker 1: thing as too much time. Beyond about five hours of 128 00:07:06,116 --> 00:07:09,716 Speaker 1: discretionary time in your day, you actually see decrease in satisfaction. 129 00:07:09,876 --> 00:07:13,636 Speaker 1: So let's to say, to Larry, your point the sweet spot, 130 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:17,036 Speaker 1: it's like between two and five hours, which is actually 131 00:07:17,236 --> 00:07:21,236 Speaker 1: quite a decent range, and two hours I will say 132 00:07:21,236 --> 00:07:23,516 Speaker 1: that sounds totally unattainable. I was going to say in 133 00:07:23,516 --> 00:07:25,516 Speaker 1: two hours for me, it seems I don't know whethers 134 00:07:25,516 --> 00:07:27,516 Speaker 1: are magically going to come from hours twenty five and 135 00:07:27,596 --> 00:07:30,956 Speaker 1: twenty six. But yeah, right, But when you start actually 136 00:07:31,076 --> 00:07:35,596 Speaker 1: calculating within your day, how much time are you spending 137 00:07:35,596 --> 00:07:38,036 Speaker 1: in ways that our facilities are Niki, you talked about 138 00:07:38,156 --> 00:07:41,116 Speaker 1: riding your bike or getting outside, Like, how much time 139 00:07:41,116 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 1: are you already spending in those ways? And it's likely 140 00:07:44,556 --> 00:07:47,636 Speaker 1: that it's two hours is not completely out of reach. 141 00:07:48,156 --> 00:07:49,716 Speaker 1: This is one of the things I love about your 142 00:07:49,756 --> 00:07:52,156 Speaker 1: stories that you kind of made this decision based on 143 00:07:52,196 --> 00:07:55,196 Speaker 1: the data, not to throw in the business towel completely, 144 00:07:55,756 --> 00:07:58,196 Speaker 1: but to find ways to use your time better, to 145 00:07:58,276 --> 00:08:00,596 Speaker 1: kind of invest it better. Why do we need to 146 00:08:00,596 --> 00:08:02,836 Speaker 1: start thinking about time as an investment. How does that 147 00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:06,476 Speaker 1: help us the way we spend our time, Those hours 148 00:08:06,676 --> 00:08:09,356 Speaker 1: sum up to our days, sum up to our case 149 00:08:09,436 --> 00:08:13,876 Speaker 1: on mptr. Life time is this resource that doesn't only 150 00:08:13,916 --> 00:08:16,316 Speaker 1: sort of signal how we're doing in life, It literally 151 00:08:16,436 --> 00:08:19,676 Speaker 1: is our life. And so where do we invest that 152 00:08:20,116 --> 00:08:24,756 Speaker 1: so that we feel fulfilled? And it's not just about 153 00:08:24,836 --> 00:08:28,356 Speaker 1: relaxing on the weekend or on vacation or data suggest 154 00:08:28,436 --> 00:08:31,876 Speaker 1: that day and in day out having a whole lot 155 00:08:31,916 --> 00:08:36,556 Speaker 1: of time of relaxing that that's actually associated with less 156 00:08:36,556 --> 00:08:41,316 Speaker 1: satisfaction because people feel a lacking sense of purpose. So 157 00:08:41,516 --> 00:08:44,716 Speaker 1: we don't want to feel so busy and productive like 158 00:08:44,756 --> 00:08:47,836 Speaker 1: we don't have time to breathe or to notice, But 159 00:08:47,916 --> 00:08:51,276 Speaker 1: we do want to feel like we're investing our time 160 00:08:51,836 --> 00:08:55,116 Speaker 1: in ways that feel worthwhile. Nicky, I'm curious what you're 161 00:08:55,156 --> 00:08:58,396 Speaker 1: thinking having heard Cassie's reaction to the business treadmill come 162 00:08:58,436 --> 00:09:01,636 Speaker 1: to Jesus moment. Yeah right, I mean I think that 163 00:09:01,836 --> 00:09:05,796 Speaker 1: when Cassie started talking about investing your time, that really 164 00:09:05,836 --> 00:09:08,756 Speaker 1: resonated with me, because I mean, I did not make 165 00:09:08,796 --> 00:09:11,876 Speaker 1: the decision to quit lightly, you know, I think that 166 00:09:11,956 --> 00:09:15,876 Speaker 1: by investing my time and energy into shifting my life 167 00:09:15,916 --> 00:09:19,636 Speaker 1: in this really big way that I'm kind of I'm 168 00:09:19,676 --> 00:09:23,436 Speaker 1: investing in myself. I think our culture leads us astray 169 00:09:23,476 --> 00:09:26,116 Speaker 1: in this really funny way, which is one way assume 170 00:09:26,196 --> 00:09:28,636 Speaker 1: that we know how to invest correctly, right, that we 171 00:09:28,716 --> 00:09:31,796 Speaker 1: put time and energy into the important stuff. We have 172 00:09:31,836 --> 00:09:34,556 Speaker 1: the right balance the meaningful stuff versus the grunt stuff. 173 00:09:34,676 --> 00:09:35,956 Speaker 1: But I feel like, Cassie, one of the things you 174 00:09:35,956 --> 00:09:37,916 Speaker 1: point out in your book is that that balance doesn't 175 00:09:38,156 --> 00:09:41,276 Speaker 1: come naturally. We often get that balance wrong. You talked 176 00:09:41,276 --> 00:09:44,476 Speaker 1: about this possibly apocryphal story of a professor doing a 177 00:09:44,516 --> 00:09:46,596 Speaker 1: demo for his class. I'm wondering if you could share 178 00:09:46,636 --> 00:09:49,036 Speaker 1: that here, because I found that guy profound. So the 179 00:09:49,116 --> 00:09:51,916 Speaker 1: room is full of students and a professor walks in 180 00:09:52,196 --> 00:09:55,756 Speaker 1: and on the desk he puts a big plastic clear 181 00:09:55,916 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 1: jar and then he out of this bag, pulls a 182 00:09:59,916 --> 00:10:02,996 Speaker 1: bunch of golf balls and pours them into the jar, 183 00:10:03,196 --> 00:10:05,876 Speaker 1: fills it up, and he asked his students is the 184 00:10:05,996 --> 00:10:08,436 Speaker 1: jar full? And they all nod their head, and then 185 00:10:08,516 --> 00:10:11,956 Speaker 1: he's like, and like, goes back into his bag and 186 00:10:12,116 --> 00:10:15,316 Speaker 1: pulls out pebbles, and then he pours the pebbles and 187 00:10:15,356 --> 00:10:18,116 Speaker 1: they sort of move around the golf balls and fill 188 00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:20,596 Speaker 1: the jar. He's like, is the jar full? And they're 189 00:10:20,636 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 1: like yeah. And then he from the bag pulls a 190 00:10:23,596 --> 00:10:26,316 Speaker 1: bunch of sand and sort of pours the sand and 191 00:10:26,476 --> 00:10:29,716 Speaker 1: that fills the jar in between, and he's like, is 192 00:10:29,756 --> 00:10:31,676 Speaker 1: the jar ful? And they're like, yeah, the jar is 193 00:10:31,716 --> 00:10:36,076 Speaker 1: definitely full. And he goes on to say if he 194 00:10:36,236 --> 00:10:39,636 Speaker 1: had put the sand in first, the golf balls wouldn't 195 00:10:39,716 --> 00:10:42,996 Speaker 1: have fit. And then out of the bag he pulls 196 00:10:43,036 --> 00:10:46,596 Speaker 1: two bottles of corona. He opens when and then he 197 00:10:46,636 --> 00:10:49,956 Speaker 1: pours a beer into the jar and he's like, this 198 00:10:50,076 --> 00:10:53,756 Speaker 1: jar is your life, and the golf balls are the 199 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:57,396 Speaker 1: things that really matter to you, and the sand is 200 00:10:57,436 --> 00:11:00,116 Speaker 1: everything else. It's sort of thoughtless ways that we spend 201 00:11:00,156 --> 00:11:03,436 Speaker 1: our time. And if we let the sand fill our 202 00:11:03,476 --> 00:11:06,036 Speaker 1: time first, if we let all this sort of stuff 203 00:11:06,076 --> 00:11:08,796 Speaker 1: just happen, we don't put our golf balls in first, 204 00:11:09,156 --> 00:11:12,316 Speaker 1: don't prioritize our time for them, then there won't be time. 205 00:11:12,316 --> 00:11:14,756 Speaker 1: And then someone asks what's the beer all about, and 206 00:11:14,756 --> 00:11:18,316 Speaker 1: he's like, no matter how full your jar is, you 207 00:11:18,436 --> 00:11:21,356 Speaker 1: always have time for a beer with a friend. So 208 00:11:22,196 --> 00:11:26,276 Speaker 1: it's just about prioritization, right. It's like understanding for you, 209 00:11:26,396 --> 00:11:28,396 Speaker 1: what are your golf balls? What are those things that 210 00:11:28,476 --> 00:11:32,076 Speaker 1: ultimately matter? And for some of us it actually might 211 00:11:32,116 --> 00:11:35,116 Speaker 1: be the work we do, but it's important to identify 212 00:11:35,236 --> 00:11:38,356 Speaker 1: what they are so that you prioritize you make the 213 00:11:38,396 --> 00:11:41,116 Speaker 1: time for that, because if you don't, then all the 214 00:11:41,156 --> 00:11:43,996 Speaker 1: sand is going to fill up our days. And Nikki, 215 00:11:44,036 --> 00:11:47,156 Speaker 1: it sounds like you were sort of feeling like really sandy, 216 00:11:47,516 --> 00:11:49,756 Speaker 1: and you're like, this isn't the life that I chose, 217 00:11:50,516 --> 00:11:53,236 Speaker 1: and then you needed to clear it out so that 218 00:11:53,316 --> 00:11:57,156 Speaker 1: you could start building on what's important to you totally. So, Nikki, 219 00:11:57,196 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 1: it sounds like you just need very sandy. It sounds 220 00:11:59,756 --> 00:12:01,316 Speaker 1: like you need a life of golf balls now that 221 00:12:01,356 --> 00:12:05,516 Speaker 1: you're off in Denver. But the real question is how 222 00:12:05,516 --> 00:12:08,156 Speaker 1: do we do this, especially if we don't have the 223 00:12:08,236 --> 00:12:11,276 Speaker 1: luxury of quitting job that might be a little too sandy. 224 00:12:11,836 --> 00:12:14,516 Speaker 1: We'll get to that question when the Happiness Lab returns. 225 00:12:14,596 --> 00:12:24,956 Speaker 1: In a moment before the break, we were really talking 226 00:12:24,956 --> 00:12:27,316 Speaker 1: about all the ways that we should be investing our 227 00:12:27,356 --> 00:12:29,836 Speaker 1: time making sure we fit our golf balls in before 228 00:12:29,876 --> 00:12:32,236 Speaker 1: with the sand kind of takes everything over, and you've 229 00:12:32,236 --> 00:12:34,116 Speaker 1: come up with a nice exercise that we can use 230 00:12:34,196 --> 00:12:35,836 Speaker 1: to do that. So tell me a little bit about 231 00:12:35,836 --> 00:12:40,196 Speaker 1: the time tracking exercise. Yes, so this is to identify 232 00:12:40,276 --> 00:12:44,516 Speaker 1: what are those activities that do make us feel happy, 233 00:12:44,516 --> 00:12:47,956 Speaker 1: that do feel meaningful in our days, and sometimes they 234 00:12:47,956 --> 00:12:52,436 Speaker 1: are what we would predict. Researchers have done time tracking, 235 00:12:52,436 --> 00:12:54,196 Speaker 1: and what they do is, over the course of an 236 00:12:54,196 --> 00:12:59,116 Speaker 1: individual's day, they ask people to track how they're spending 237 00:12:59,156 --> 00:13:04,036 Speaker 1: their time as well as rate how happy or how 238 00:13:04,076 --> 00:13:08,276 Speaker 1: positive they feel while doing it, and with that data 239 00:13:08,516 --> 00:13:11,836 Speaker 1: you can ify what are those activities that tend to 240 00:13:11,876 --> 00:13:15,276 Speaker 1: be associated with the most positive emotion, what are those 241 00:13:15,316 --> 00:13:18,196 Speaker 1: activities that tend to be associated with the most negative emotion? 242 00:13:18,716 --> 00:13:23,756 Speaker 1: And the research identifies that, on average, the activities associate 243 00:13:23,796 --> 00:13:26,476 Speaker 1: with the most positive emotion tend to be those that 244 00:13:26,596 --> 00:13:30,276 Speaker 1: involve connecting with other people, so spending time with your 245 00:13:30,316 --> 00:13:33,476 Speaker 1: family and friends. The activities that tend to be assosiate 246 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:40,476 Speaker 1: with the most negative emotion are commuting, check work, check yeah, 247 00:13:40,596 --> 00:13:43,516 Speaker 1: and housework. So Nikki, like your decision of Dude, I 248 00:13:43,516 --> 00:13:47,996 Speaker 1: don't want to commute, it's reasonable because for the typical 249 00:13:48,036 --> 00:13:52,076 Speaker 1: American those are the least happy hours of our day. 250 00:13:52,116 --> 00:13:53,876 Speaker 1: And one thing is that you did this time tracking 251 00:13:53,916 --> 00:13:57,036 Speaker 1: activity yourself, and I understand you found some surprises even 252 00:13:57,036 --> 00:14:00,276 Speaker 1: though you do this for a living. Yes, So I, 253 00:14:00,516 --> 00:14:04,476 Speaker 1: for instance, knowing the research very well, I'm like, oh, 254 00:14:04,596 --> 00:14:07,716 Speaker 1: social connection, time that I am with others should be 255 00:14:07,756 --> 00:14:10,796 Speaker 1: my happiest. That was true for me across the board. 256 00:14:11,156 --> 00:14:14,156 Speaker 1: For me, it was a particular way of spending time 257 00:14:14,196 --> 00:14:17,276 Speaker 1: with others, and for me as an introvert, I like 258 00:14:18,316 --> 00:14:20,916 Speaker 1: sort of one on one conversations where I can get 259 00:14:20,956 --> 00:14:23,436 Speaker 1: to know the person. My son, on the other hand, 260 00:14:23,476 --> 00:14:26,476 Speaker 1: that the extrovert of the world, he wants all people 261 00:14:26,476 --> 00:14:29,596 Speaker 1: around him, so like anytime other people are in the vicinity, 262 00:14:29,676 --> 00:14:32,036 Speaker 1: that is actually positive time. So it's important for you 263 00:14:32,076 --> 00:14:35,876 Speaker 1: to identify what are not only the activities, but the 264 00:14:35,996 --> 00:14:39,436 Speaker 1: sort of features of those activities. So work, I really 265 00:14:39,556 --> 00:14:43,596 Speaker 1: love my hours. When I spend working where I am writing, 266 00:14:43,796 --> 00:14:48,436 Speaker 1: digging into data, my door is closed, not talking to anyone, 267 00:14:48,556 --> 00:14:54,756 Speaker 1: That is really fulfilling. It's happy work. Whereas email time, Yes, 268 00:14:54,956 --> 00:14:57,156 Speaker 1: then I am like the average America where I'm like 269 00:14:57,236 --> 00:14:59,196 Speaker 1: work is the worst. One of the things I think 270 00:14:59,196 --> 00:15:01,676 Speaker 1: this activity also helps with simulating doing it in my 271 00:15:01,756 --> 00:15:04,756 Speaker 1: head is just you realize that everything's an opportunity cost, right, 272 00:15:04,756 --> 00:15:06,516 Speaker 1: all the time at work that I'm spending on email 273 00:15:06,556 --> 00:15:08,796 Speaker 1: that I might hate is time that I'm not spending 274 00:15:09,196 --> 00:15:11,596 Speaker 1: in my office or with a close colleague having a conversation. 275 00:15:11,716 --> 00:15:13,716 Speaker 1: It really highlights the fact that our time is a 276 00:15:13,756 --> 00:15:15,956 Speaker 1: resource that if we're not using, your right is like 277 00:15:16,036 --> 00:15:19,636 Speaker 1: going away. Yeah, I mean, it really helps you identify 278 00:15:19,716 --> 00:15:23,436 Speaker 1: the sand. To be honest, you know all that sand 279 00:15:23,476 --> 00:15:26,356 Speaker 1: that washes in and fills your time because you're not 280 00:15:26,396 --> 00:15:29,996 Speaker 1: only looking at the activities that you're doing and how 281 00:15:29,996 --> 00:15:32,356 Speaker 1: happy you feel while doing them, but you can calculate 282 00:15:32,396 --> 00:15:36,316 Speaker 1: how much time you've spent on those activities. And so 283 00:15:36,476 --> 00:15:41,596 Speaker 1: for me, my sand keep reports email. Email can literally 284 00:15:41,676 --> 00:15:46,036 Speaker 1: feel one's entire days and therefore entire life, but will 285 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:48,716 Speaker 1: fill as much time as you give it. Among my 286 00:15:48,796 --> 00:15:51,116 Speaker 1: students when they do this, often the sand that they 287 00:15:51,236 --> 00:15:54,756 Speaker 1: identify is actually time spent on social media. They're like, oh, 288 00:15:54,956 --> 00:15:56,996 Speaker 1: just be a quick check, thinking that will be like 289 00:15:57,036 --> 00:15:59,236 Speaker 1: a few minutes here, a few minutes there. Those few 290 00:15:59,276 --> 00:16:03,876 Speaker 1: minutes add up a big portion of one's week. TV too, 291 00:16:03,916 --> 00:16:08,196 Speaker 1: and so while that initial thirty minutes where you're watching 292 00:16:08,196 --> 00:16:10,556 Speaker 1: your show and I'll excited, you're like sort of on 293 00:16:10,596 --> 00:16:13,596 Speaker 1: the couch exhausted from the day. It's such a treat. 294 00:16:13,756 --> 00:16:18,116 Speaker 1: But when that initial half hour it bleeds into an hour, 295 00:16:18,316 --> 00:16:20,796 Speaker 1: two hours, three hours, and then it's ten o'clock and 296 00:16:20,916 --> 00:16:23,556 Speaker 1: you're exhausted and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so tired. 297 00:16:23,716 --> 00:16:26,676 Speaker 1: Are you even still having fun? Not? Really. That's one 298 00:16:26,676 --> 00:16:28,876 Speaker 1: of the reasons that time tracking exercise is so powerful, 299 00:16:28,876 --> 00:16:31,396 Speaker 1: as we start learning what's fun and what's not. But then, 300 00:16:31,436 --> 00:16:33,436 Speaker 1: of course there's the next step, which is to use 301 00:16:33,476 --> 00:16:35,916 Speaker 1: the information that we actually get from the time tracking 302 00:16:35,996 --> 00:16:38,956 Speaker 1: exercise totally. I think that means hacking two things. First 303 00:16:38,956 --> 00:16:42,036 Speaker 1: hacking our leisure time and then second maybe hacking our work. 304 00:16:42,356 --> 00:16:45,236 Speaker 1: And so let's talk about hacking our leisure time. As 305 00:16:45,276 --> 00:16:48,076 Speaker 1: you talk through the sort of time exercise with other folks, 306 00:16:48,356 --> 00:16:51,636 Speaker 1: are there specific spots where you've found not universal but 307 00:16:51,716 --> 00:16:54,836 Speaker 1: pretty general recommendations for what people should add more of 308 00:16:54,956 --> 00:16:58,476 Speaker 1: into their leisure time. Yeah. Again, touching to the role 309 00:16:58,516 --> 00:17:02,956 Speaker 1: of social connection, So socializing to the extent that it 310 00:17:03,036 --> 00:17:05,836 Speaker 1: makes you feel a greater connection and a greater sense 311 00:17:05,876 --> 00:17:09,556 Speaker 1: of belonging, that's where you really get the boot. Then. 312 00:17:09,676 --> 00:17:13,796 Speaker 1: So friendship research shows over and over again the rule 313 00:17:13,996 --> 00:17:17,596 Speaker 1: of friendship family members can also be friends. It's the 314 00:17:17,636 --> 00:17:21,756 Speaker 1: extent to which you feel understood and known and understand 315 00:17:21,916 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 1: another individual. And the way that you can increase closeness 316 00:17:26,436 --> 00:17:32,796 Speaker 1: among friends is increasing self disclosure and having conversations where 317 00:17:32,916 --> 00:17:37,556 Speaker 1: you share about your experience, listen to the others experience. 318 00:17:37,876 --> 00:17:39,996 Speaker 1: That can have a wonderful impact on how close and 319 00:17:39,996 --> 00:17:42,756 Speaker 1: connected you feel. And I have this exercise that I 320 00:17:42,796 --> 00:17:45,036 Speaker 1: do among my students in class where I pair them 321 00:17:45,116 --> 00:17:48,316 Speaker 1: up and I give them this it's the relationship closeness 322 00:17:48,316 --> 00:17:50,996 Speaker 1: induction task, but basically as a set of questions that 323 00:17:51,236 --> 00:17:56,596 Speaker 1: as the questions progress, they become more disclosive. So the 324 00:17:56,716 --> 00:18:01,636 Speaker 1: initial questions are the typical like what's your name? You know, 325 00:18:01,716 --> 00:18:04,996 Speaker 1: why did you come to Anderson? What are your hobbies? 326 00:18:05,276 --> 00:18:09,276 Speaker 1: And then the next set of questions is what do 327 00:18:09,316 --> 00:18:12,676 Speaker 1: you go into this particular profession? So I started picking 328 00:18:12,756 --> 00:18:15,996 Speaker 1: up on goals. And then the last most disclosive set 329 00:18:16,036 --> 00:18:20,956 Speaker 1: of questions are like what was your happiest childhood memory, 330 00:18:21,396 --> 00:18:24,156 Speaker 1: what is one of your greatest fears? What are you 331 00:18:24,276 --> 00:18:26,476 Speaker 1: most proud of? So there are things that people at 332 00:18:26,476 --> 00:18:28,756 Speaker 1: first might feel like this is a little overshare, like 333 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:30,636 Speaker 1: this is awkward and weird. But what you find is 334 00:18:30,636 --> 00:18:34,956 Speaker 1: that's not what people experience, is it. Within just fifteen minutes, 335 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 1: these pairs that have randomly paired up feel like they've 336 00:18:40,116 --> 00:18:42,836 Speaker 1: made a new friend. So that's how we can get 337 00:18:42,876 --> 00:18:45,956 Speaker 1: more social and get less on screens. But there's also 338 00:18:46,076 --> 00:18:48,396 Speaker 1: stuff that happens outside of work that also feels not fun. 339 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:51,076 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of, like the chores and things. Any tips 340 00:18:51,116 --> 00:18:53,396 Speaker 1: for how we can make our chore doing a little 341 00:18:53,396 --> 00:18:57,516 Speaker 1: bit more fun and enjoyable. Yes, So, pulling from one 342 00:18:57,556 --> 00:19:01,276 Speaker 1: of my favorite colleagues, Katie Milkman, she has wonderful work 343 00:19:01,556 --> 00:19:06,196 Speaker 1: that shows that if you bundle unfun activity with a 344 00:19:06,276 --> 00:19:08,836 Speaker 1: fun activity and makes that activity all the more fun. 345 00:19:09,396 --> 00:19:11,916 Speaker 1: She has shown it and you can certainly use as 346 00:19:11,956 --> 00:19:14,276 Speaker 1: if you are one of the people that view exercise 347 00:19:14,356 --> 00:19:18,836 Speaker 1: as a chore. If you listen to a podcast, or 348 00:19:18,876 --> 00:19:22,236 Speaker 1: if you're on the elliptical while watching The Bachelor, these 349 00:19:22,276 --> 00:19:25,316 Speaker 1: are ways that you can make that exercise time or 350 00:19:25,356 --> 00:19:28,556 Speaker 1: that chore time feel more fun. Turning on a podcast 351 00:19:28,596 --> 00:19:32,156 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab, and you will have more fun folding 352 00:19:32,196 --> 00:19:35,476 Speaker 1: the lundry. In fact, you will want to continue folding 353 00:19:35,556 --> 00:19:37,956 Speaker 1: lundry and you're like albumed when the last socks have 354 00:19:38,036 --> 00:19:40,716 Speaker 1: been paired up, So there are these ways of bundling 355 00:19:40,756 --> 00:19:43,836 Speaker 1: that make it more fun. Another activity that I mentioned 356 00:19:43,956 --> 00:19:46,476 Speaker 1: is associated with low levels of happiness, which feel like 357 00:19:46,516 --> 00:19:49,396 Speaker 1: a chore because as a waste is commuting, and you 358 00:19:49,436 --> 00:19:53,236 Speaker 1: can use this bundling strategy for that too. So if 359 00:19:53,276 --> 00:19:56,916 Speaker 1: you drive for your commute listening to books on tape, 360 00:19:57,036 --> 00:20:01,796 Speaker 1: listening to podcasts, as opposed to the sandy way to commute, 361 00:20:01,796 --> 00:20:04,956 Speaker 1: which is flipping through the radio station, Nikki, you're smiling there. 362 00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:07,276 Speaker 1: I'm guessing that maybe you actually do some of these 363 00:20:07,356 --> 00:20:11,116 Speaker 1: temptation bundling type activity. Oh yeah, I'm a big bundler, 364 00:20:11,396 --> 00:20:14,436 Speaker 1: and I think that the opposite to listening to a 365 00:20:14,436 --> 00:20:17,836 Speaker 1: book on tape is maybe like scrolling through social media 366 00:20:17,996 --> 00:20:21,796 Speaker 1: during your commute if you take public transit. Yeah, and actually, 367 00:20:22,076 --> 00:20:26,036 Speaker 1: again that's a really great sandy example because people tend 368 00:20:26,116 --> 00:20:29,956 Speaker 1: to spend their commutes on social media. But that in 369 00:20:29,996 --> 00:20:33,516 Speaker 1: itself actually isn't fulfilling, and at least my students time 370 00:20:33,556 --> 00:20:37,836 Speaker 1: tracking results suggest that it's actually way less positive and 371 00:20:37,876 --> 00:20:42,396 Speaker 1: way less happy and fun than people predict. We've heard 372 00:20:42,436 --> 00:20:44,356 Speaker 1: about ways that we can fill our time with more 373 00:20:44,356 --> 00:20:47,436 Speaker 1: fulfilling things in our leisure and in our chores. When 374 00:20:47,476 --> 00:20:49,196 Speaker 1: we get back from the break, we're going to hear 375 00:20:49,236 --> 00:20:51,276 Speaker 1: more about how we can do that at work too, 376 00:20:51,716 --> 00:20:55,116 Speaker 1: through the process of job crafting. The Happiness Lab will 377 00:20:55,156 --> 00:21:05,916 Speaker 1: be right back. So far, we've talked about how we 378 00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:08,356 Speaker 1: can become happier in our leisure kind of you know, 379 00:21:08,396 --> 00:21:10,396 Speaker 1: make sure our leasure is filled with golf balls. I'm 380 00:21:10,436 --> 00:21:12,436 Speaker 1: not saying, but this is something we also have to 381 00:21:12,476 --> 00:21:14,956 Speaker 1: do at work too. And we actually had another listener 382 00:21:15,116 --> 00:21:17,556 Speaker 1: who we met with earlier who shared a question about 383 00:21:17,636 --> 00:21:19,836 Speaker 1: this issue, trying to make our work a little bit 384 00:21:19,836 --> 00:21:22,796 Speaker 1: more meaningful and fun. Hi, Laurie, my name's Megan kan 385 00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:26,196 Speaker 1: and Cassie. I'd love to hear more about this concept 386 00:21:26,236 --> 00:21:29,556 Speaker 1: of job crafting. I'm in a position where I have 387 00:21:29,916 --> 00:21:33,436 Speaker 1: really demanding job that can really easily lend itself to burnout, 388 00:21:33,756 --> 00:21:36,396 Speaker 1: but it's also really meaningful to me. I do patient 389 00:21:36,476 --> 00:21:39,196 Speaker 1: care and also teaching, and I love my patients and 390 00:21:39,276 --> 00:21:41,716 Speaker 1: my students. So I've tried to work on things that 391 00:21:41,756 --> 00:21:44,716 Speaker 1: are more meaningful to me and that helps prevent the burnout. 392 00:21:44,916 --> 00:21:47,756 Speaker 1: But I also have friends and relatives in jobs that 393 00:21:47,916 --> 00:21:51,116 Speaker 1: are maybe less meaningful to them, and so I'm wondering 394 00:21:51,236 --> 00:21:53,596 Speaker 1: how can someone in a position like that, where it's 395 00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:56,156 Speaker 1: difficult to find the meaning in the work, enhance their 396 00:21:56,196 --> 00:21:59,596 Speaker 1: happiness and their well being in the workplace. I especially 397 00:21:59,596 --> 00:22:01,916 Speaker 1: hate the phrase do what you love and you'll never 398 00:22:01,956 --> 00:22:03,916 Speaker 1: work a day in your life. First of all, I 399 00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:07,156 Speaker 1: do what I love and it's definitely work. And there 400 00:22:07,196 --> 00:22:09,716 Speaker 1: are people who just can't afford to do a job 401 00:22:09,756 --> 00:22:12,596 Speaker 1: that is something that they love. They can't monetize the 402 00:22:12,676 --> 00:22:15,396 Speaker 1: things that they care about. But I think they deserve 403 00:22:15,476 --> 00:22:18,636 Speaker 1: to find wellness in the workplace too. And so it 404 00:22:18,636 --> 00:22:21,636 Speaker 1: seems like Meghan has two questions about job crafting. First, 405 00:22:21,636 --> 00:22:23,596 Speaker 1: how you can job craft if you have a really 406 00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:26,556 Speaker 1: burnout prone, very busy job, and then second, how you 407 00:22:26,556 --> 00:22:28,676 Speaker 1: can job craft in a job that might not be 408 00:22:28,716 --> 00:22:31,476 Speaker 1: so challenging. Let's start with job crafting. It sounds like 409 00:22:31,516 --> 00:22:33,676 Speaker 1: Megan has listened a lot to the Happiness Lab, which 410 00:22:33,716 --> 00:22:35,636 Speaker 1: is not surprising. But Cassie, can you give us a 411 00:22:35,716 --> 00:22:39,836 Speaker 1: quick rundown of what job crafting is. Yes, job crafting 412 00:22:40,396 --> 00:22:42,956 Speaker 1: is about how do you take the job that you 413 00:22:43,116 --> 00:22:49,436 Speaker 1: have and craft it so that you're more satisfied with 414 00:22:49,476 --> 00:22:52,116 Speaker 1: the work at the day's end, and that involves a 415 00:22:52,156 --> 00:22:55,596 Speaker 1: couple of things. One is it is redirecting where you 416 00:22:55,636 --> 00:22:59,556 Speaker 1: spend your time within the work day so that you're 417 00:22:59,636 --> 00:23:04,916 Speaker 1: investing on tasks that are more worthwhile. It also involves 418 00:23:05,356 --> 00:23:09,396 Speaker 1: reframing some of the tasks that you're doing already. And 419 00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:13,076 Speaker 1: it sounds like Megan has already redone that in terms 420 00:23:13,156 --> 00:23:17,796 Speaker 1: of reframing her work by understanding what in her work 421 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:21,356 Speaker 1: is meaningful for her. And even though at the face 422 00:23:21,396 --> 00:23:24,556 Speaker 1: of it, some of our jobs it's not quite clear, 423 00:23:24,676 --> 00:23:27,036 Speaker 1: like what is the meaning of it, what's the sort 424 00:23:27,076 --> 00:23:29,236 Speaker 1: of positive impact that it has on the world or 425 00:23:29,236 --> 00:23:33,116 Speaker 1: on others or myself, But you can actually start to 426 00:23:33,276 --> 00:23:38,156 Speaker 1: identify that in happier hour, I have this exercise called 427 00:23:38,156 --> 00:23:41,116 Speaker 1: the five Wise, and what it is asking you to 428 00:23:41,196 --> 00:23:44,756 Speaker 1: do is first state your job and then ask why 429 00:23:44,796 --> 00:23:48,396 Speaker 1: do you do that? Oftentimes that first answer is for money, 430 00:23:48,756 --> 00:23:52,396 Speaker 1: but then asking why is that important? I can use 431 00:23:52,436 --> 00:23:55,876 Speaker 1: myself as an example. Okay, my job, I'm a business 432 00:23:55,876 --> 00:24:00,196 Speaker 1: school professor. What is that job? I conduct research, I teach, 433 00:24:00,236 --> 00:24:03,276 Speaker 1: and I do some service. Why is that important? Well? 434 00:24:03,316 --> 00:24:06,956 Speaker 1: I want to create knowledge into seminate knowledge. Why do 435 00:24:06,996 --> 00:24:09,596 Speaker 1: I care about that? Well? I want people to be 436 00:24:09,636 --> 00:24:12,196 Speaker 1: smart why do I want people to be smart? Actually, 437 00:24:12,676 --> 00:24:16,196 Speaker 1: I personally want people to be smart about their happiness. 438 00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:20,076 Speaker 1: I want them to know how they should be spending 439 00:24:20,116 --> 00:24:24,876 Speaker 1: their time to feel greater happiness. And having identified that, 440 00:24:25,316 --> 00:24:29,516 Speaker 1: it actually makes some of my tasks more fun. So 441 00:24:29,636 --> 00:24:33,156 Speaker 1: even emailing, going back to emailing one of my least 442 00:24:33,196 --> 00:24:37,636 Speaker 1: happy sandy tasks, if I'm like, oh, actually creating knowledge 443 00:24:37,676 --> 00:24:39,796 Speaker 1: about what makes people a happy is Now when I 444 00:24:39,836 --> 00:24:44,036 Speaker 1: get emails from my collaborators, it's not like responding to email, 445 00:24:44,156 --> 00:24:47,756 Speaker 1: it's oh, this is part of the endeavor to create 446 00:24:47,876 --> 00:24:50,836 Speaker 1: knowledge about what makes people are happy. So even email 447 00:24:51,556 --> 00:24:54,756 Speaker 1: takes on new meaning. It seems like it works in 448 00:24:54,756 --> 00:24:56,716 Speaker 1: two ways. Right, it's not just the email takes on 449 00:24:56,796 --> 00:24:58,876 Speaker 1: new meaning. But if you had some other tasks that 450 00:24:58,916 --> 00:25:02,036 Speaker 1: you couldn't reframe, they're like, wait, this is not part 451 00:25:02,036 --> 00:25:04,156 Speaker 1: of making people happy at all, then that might really 452 00:25:04,196 --> 00:25:05,956 Speaker 1: cause you to think maybe this has to go, or 453 00:25:05,956 --> 00:25:07,916 Speaker 1: maybe I need to really minimize this in my work 454 00:25:07,916 --> 00:25:11,676 Speaker 1: as much as possible. Absolutely, So that's where the sort 455 00:25:11,676 --> 00:25:15,476 Speaker 1: of where you dedicate your time. This helps inform what 456 00:25:15,636 --> 00:25:18,796 Speaker 1: are those projects, what are those tasks that you say 457 00:25:18,916 --> 00:25:22,036 Speaker 1: yes versus no too, And there is a lot of 458 00:25:22,636 --> 00:25:26,756 Speaker 1: sand that is there and that shouldn't be there, and 459 00:25:27,276 --> 00:25:31,156 Speaker 1: is potentially not necessary for your job and certainly not 460 00:25:31,236 --> 00:25:33,876 Speaker 1: for what drives you and motivates you in your work. 461 00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:37,236 Speaker 1: I'm curious hearing this, Nikki, what you're thinking now, especially 462 00:25:37,276 --> 00:25:40,396 Speaker 1: having switched around your job so much. Now I'm actually 463 00:25:40,436 --> 00:25:46,716 Speaker 1: transitioning into this really neat part time caregiving slash help 464 00:25:46,756 --> 00:25:50,956 Speaker 1: with housekeeping and Errand's kind of situation that allows me 465 00:25:51,036 --> 00:25:53,716 Speaker 1: to live up in the mountains and also help an 466 00:25:53,716 --> 00:25:57,436 Speaker 1: older individual keep her independence as she gets closer to 467 00:25:57,476 --> 00:25:59,716 Speaker 1: the end of her life, and it's really beneficial for 468 00:25:59,756 --> 00:26:01,956 Speaker 1: me as well. We're just hearing you guys talk about 469 00:26:02,236 --> 00:26:04,396 Speaker 1: doing that exercise like I've been doing it in my 470 00:26:04,436 --> 00:26:07,076 Speaker 1: mind listening to you guys talk. And I work in 471 00:26:07,116 --> 00:26:10,316 Speaker 1: public media, so I'm also really passionate educating people and 472 00:26:10,556 --> 00:26:12,996 Speaker 1: creating content that they want to watch and share and 473 00:26:13,036 --> 00:26:16,036 Speaker 1: are inspired by. But at the same time, I'm like, 474 00:26:16,596 --> 00:26:19,836 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure, So what would you recommend for 475 00:26:19,916 --> 00:26:22,916 Speaker 1: somebody who like me? Is because determined that maybe this 476 00:26:22,996 --> 00:26:25,076 Speaker 1: thing that I've been doing for a long time and 477 00:26:25,156 --> 00:26:27,356 Speaker 1: that I went to school for all these things isn't 478 00:26:27,436 --> 00:26:30,836 Speaker 1: really serving me anymore. Or isn't the right fit for me? 479 00:26:31,036 --> 00:26:35,436 Speaker 1: Maybe like how do you determine what comes next? I 480 00:26:35,476 --> 00:26:39,156 Speaker 1: think that this job crafting, or even the time tracking 481 00:26:39,316 --> 00:26:42,716 Speaker 1: and asking these questions of why. So, once you identify 482 00:26:42,836 --> 00:26:47,516 Speaker 1: within your work day or within your former job, what 483 00:26:47,636 --> 00:26:52,076 Speaker 1: were the pieces of it that were more fun for you? 484 00:26:52,276 --> 00:26:55,436 Speaker 1: As well as why were those pieces more fun? Was 485 00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:58,996 Speaker 1: it contributing to something that really gets you going? And 486 00:26:59,076 --> 00:27:02,156 Speaker 1: so this job craft name doesn't only help make the 487 00:27:02,236 --> 00:27:05,236 Speaker 1: job that you have better, but by identifying those things 488 00:27:05,236 --> 00:27:09,116 Speaker 1: that can help you select what type of work actually 489 00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:13,156 Speaker 1: would be where more hours of that job would be fun. 490 00:27:13,196 --> 00:27:16,276 Speaker 1: Because of course there's going to be pieces of any 491 00:27:16,396 --> 00:27:20,676 Speaker 1: job that just fun, but knowing why you're doing the 492 00:27:20,756 --> 00:27:25,316 Speaker 1: work makes those unfun pieces more reasonable. Totally, I honestly 493 00:27:25,396 --> 00:27:26,916 Speaker 1: wish that I could get every one of my Yale 494 00:27:26,916 --> 00:27:28,956 Speaker 1: students to do this, because I think when they're picking 495 00:27:28,996 --> 00:27:31,596 Speaker 1: their job, it's not based on what's that thing that's 496 00:27:31,636 --> 00:27:33,596 Speaker 1: there why, it's like, oh it gives me the most 497 00:27:33,636 --> 00:27:36,076 Speaker 1: money or the most prestige. They're falling into the same 498 00:27:36,116 --> 00:27:38,476 Speaker 1: cultural trap that I think we all fall into. But 499 00:27:38,516 --> 00:27:40,836 Speaker 1: then I also want to get back to Megan's other question, 500 00:27:40,916 --> 00:27:42,876 Speaker 1: which is this is for the people who have a 501 00:27:42,916 --> 00:27:44,476 Speaker 1: lot of choice about their job and had a lot 502 00:27:44,476 --> 00:27:47,076 Speaker 1: of meaning Right my Yale students are often picking between 503 00:27:47,156 --> 00:27:49,796 Speaker 1: jobs that are all really challenging and interesting. What about 504 00:27:49,836 --> 00:27:51,996 Speaker 1: the jobs where you might assume it might be hard 505 00:27:52,036 --> 00:27:54,516 Speaker 1: to job craft or the kind of job description you 506 00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:56,836 Speaker 1: have is really specific and really tight and maybe not 507 00:27:56,876 --> 00:27:59,116 Speaker 1: that challenging. What about people who are listening, who are 508 00:27:59,156 --> 00:28:02,716 Speaker 1: in that situation, how can they also engage in job crafting. Yeah, 509 00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:06,236 Speaker 1: there's another component of job crafting that we haven't talked about, 510 00:28:06,316 --> 00:28:10,796 Speaker 1: and that relates to any job, no matter how meaningful 511 00:28:11,036 --> 00:28:15,796 Speaker 1: the job scope itself is, and that is finding a 512 00:28:15,796 --> 00:28:18,356 Speaker 1: friend at work. I've already talked about the role of 513 00:28:18,436 --> 00:28:22,276 Speaker 1: social connection, and it's interesting because it's like in the 514 00:28:22,396 --> 00:28:25,116 Speaker 1: time tracking research, they identify our happiest times of the 515 00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:28,996 Speaker 1: day are when we are connecting with others, and the 516 00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:31,556 Speaker 1: least happy times are when we're at work. But there 517 00:28:31,556 --> 00:28:35,196 Speaker 1: are potentially a lot of work hours that you could 518 00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:39,316 Speaker 1: imbue with that authentic social connection. In the Gallop Pull, 519 00:28:39,396 --> 00:28:43,236 Speaker 1: they have this funny question which initially I was like, 520 00:28:43,276 --> 00:28:45,076 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, is this for real? It sounds like 521 00:28:45,116 --> 00:28:46,996 Speaker 1: something a third grade er would ask is do you 522 00:28:47,076 --> 00:28:51,556 Speaker 1: have a best friend at work? And interestingly, the answer 523 00:28:51,636 --> 00:28:56,516 Speaker 1: to that question is highly predictive of how engaged people 524 00:28:56,636 --> 00:29:00,196 Speaker 1: feel at work, their performance at work, how satisfied that 525 00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:03,636 Speaker 1: they are with their work, and satisfaction with our work 526 00:29:03,916 --> 00:29:06,676 Speaker 1: is a very big determinant of how satisfied we feel 527 00:29:06,676 --> 00:29:09,116 Speaker 1: with their life overall, because we spent so much time 528 00:29:09,156 --> 00:29:11,996 Speaker 1: I'm on it or at it. I love this conversation 529 00:29:12,076 --> 00:29:14,876 Speaker 1: because it's really telling us that even if you're feeling 530 00:29:15,396 --> 00:29:18,196 Speaker 1: very not engaged at work, even if you're feeling like 531 00:29:18,196 --> 00:29:19,956 Speaker 1: you're hating it, even if you're feeling like you're at 532 00:29:19,956 --> 00:29:23,116 Speaker 1: the end of your business treadmill, there are paths forward 533 00:29:23,116 --> 00:29:25,396 Speaker 1: to figure this out. Perhaps the path is to completely 534 00:29:25,436 --> 00:29:28,436 Speaker 1: empty the jar and just like start over from scratch 535 00:29:28,476 --> 00:29:30,876 Speaker 1: like Nikki did. But perhaps the task is to do 536 00:29:30,916 --> 00:29:33,756 Speaker 1: a little bit of a time evaluation exercise to see 537 00:29:33,756 --> 00:29:35,236 Speaker 1: what's in the jar in the first place. Then can 538 00:29:35,276 --> 00:29:38,196 Speaker 1: I switch some things around. Cassie and Nikky, thank you 539 00:29:38,236 --> 00:29:40,316 Speaker 1: both so much for being on the show. This was 540 00:29:40,396 --> 00:29:43,956 Speaker 1: fantastic and such a wonderful little exercise having our listener 541 00:29:43,996 --> 00:29:46,396 Speaker 1: on for the first time, so super appreciate it. Thank 542 00:29:46,396 --> 00:29:49,396 Speaker 1: you both so much, so much fun, and thank you 543 00:29:49,436 --> 00:29:51,756 Speaker 1: for all you're doing to do seven and eight knowledge 544 00:29:51,756 --> 00:29:54,836 Speaker 1: about when it makes people at happy. For many of us, 545 00:29:54,916 --> 00:29:57,556 Speaker 1: so much of our identity is deeply intertwined with what 546 00:29:57,596 --> 00:29:59,876 Speaker 1: we do for a living, and more often than not, 547 00:30:00,036 --> 00:30:03,156 Speaker 1: our work dictates our schedules and sometimes leaves us without 548 00:30:03,236 --> 00:30:06,716 Speaker 1: time for fun, for family, for volunteering, or for just 549 00:30:06,796 --> 00:30:08,916 Speaker 1: looking up at the clouds. So if we want to 550 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:11,756 Speaker 1: body the idea that we're really born to live, we 551 00:30:11,876 --> 00:30:14,596 Speaker 1: need to practice these strategies to push back on all 552 00:30:14,676 --> 00:30:17,676 Speaker 1: the social pressure and time pressure that causes us to 553 00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:22,636 Speaker 1: prioritize work overliving. After chatting with Cassie, I'll be watching 554 00:30:22,636 --> 00:30:25,596 Speaker 1: out to make sure my calendar isn't too sandy, and 555 00:30:25,676 --> 00:30:28,876 Speaker 1: reminding myself that no matter how busy I feel, there's 556 00:30:28,876 --> 00:30:31,476 Speaker 1: always time to get a tasty beverage with a friend. 557 00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:36,996 Speaker 1: Thanks so much to Happiness Lab listener Nicky Walker and 558 00:30:37,156 --> 00:30:40,116 Speaker 1: to my guest expert Cassie Holmes, be sure to look 559 00:30:40,156 --> 00:30:43,556 Speaker 1: out for Cassie's new book, Happier Hour, How to beat distraction, 560 00:30:43,756 --> 00:30:46,836 Speaker 1: expand your time and focus on what matters most. You 561 00:30:46,876 --> 00:30:48,996 Speaker 1: can pre order it wherever you shop for your books. 562 00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:52,876 Speaker 1: We'll be back with another show answering all the questions 563 00:30:52,956 --> 00:30:55,796 Speaker 1: from you our listeners, and if you have a question 564 00:30:55,876 --> 00:30:58,196 Speaker 1: you'd like answered, or you have a great idea for 565 00:30:58,236 --> 00:31:01,556 Speaker 1: a show in general, you can email us at THHL 566 00:31:01,876 --> 00:31:07,236 Speaker 1: Voice at Pushkin dot Fm. That's THL Voice at Pushkin 567 00:31:07,436 --> 00:31:12,116 Speaker 1: dot Fm. You can also contact me on Twitter or Instagram. 568 00:31:12,196 --> 00:31:14,796 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. It's The Happiness Lab Listener 569 00:31:14,876 --> 00:31:19,036 Speaker 1: Questions Special Edition with me, Doctor Laurie Santos. I hope 570 00:31:19,116 --> 00:31:28,436 Speaker 1: it's been a good use of your time. The Happiness 571 00:31:28,516 --> 00:31:31,356 Speaker 1: Lab is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley, Emily 572 00:31:31,356 --> 00:31:35,356 Speaker 1: Anne Vaughan, and Courtney Guerino. Our original music was composed 573 00:31:35,396 --> 00:31:38,956 Speaker 1: by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing and mastering by 574 00:31:38,956 --> 00:31:43,556 Speaker 1: Evan Viola. Special thanks to Milabelle, Heather Faine, John Schnars, 575 00:31:43,756 --> 00:31:48,396 Speaker 1: Carli Migliori, Christina Sullivan, Brandt Haynes, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, 576 00:31:48,596 --> 00:31:53,516 Speaker 1: Nicole Morano, Royston Preserved, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, Ben Davis. 577 00:31:54,316 --> 00:31:56,916 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries 578 00:31:56,996 --> 00:32:00,876 Speaker 1: and me, Doctor Laurie Santos. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 579 00:32:01,036 --> 00:32:04,436 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 580 00:32:04,476 --> 00:32:05,436 Speaker 1: listen to your podcasts.