WEBVTT - Must We Suffer Emotional Pain? 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.240 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.480 and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, and we're all feeling 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:18.800 rather chipper today. And this is stuff you should not know. 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:24.439 Not emotionally painful is not at all true. I'm just 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:28.960 really good at masking mine. Oh how about you. I'm 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.519 feeling pretty good today. I'm glad man in this moment. 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:36.240 But this is a This is an interesting topic because, 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.280 as we'll see when we cover our history section here 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.360 at the beginning. And thanks to Olivia for helping out 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.000 with this one, right, wouldnt Olivia? Yeah? This was she 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:51.879 wrote this right around Christmas. Kind of bad. Yeah, it's 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:56.080 like one of puppies next right, Uh. We will soon 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.720 learn and there's probably no surprise that things like emotional 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.960 pain in and mental distress have quite often and still 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.320 quite often take a back seat in the West and 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:12.399 then the medical world. And it's just sort of that's 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.240 sort of it's incredibly sad that that's the case. Yeah, 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.560 And just to do it just a brief sketch, emotional 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.559 pain is exactly what you've always thought it was. There's nothing, 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:24.240 you know, there's no new concept to it that you 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:26.920 was gonna be like, oh, that's emotional pain. Anytime you 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.720 felt like heartache, sadness, embarrassment, something where you felt like 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:36.000 your body was responding to a sudden emotion, that's that's 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.479 emotional pain, right, um. And it's just a part of life. 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:41.040 People have said it's a part of life for a 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.319 very long time. If you're a Buddhist, it is definitely 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:45.679 a part of life. Same with Christians. It's just kind 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:48.520 of how people have approached it. But you said something 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.680 that I didn't realize that here in the West. I mean, 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:54.680 I guess I realized this part here in the West. 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:57.760 If you go to a doctor and you say I'm 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.800 having emotional pain, they're like, actually, no, you're not. It's 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.040 it's real pain and your leg is missing right now 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.720 and I need to sew it up. And you're like no, 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.000 but I'm emotionally affected by this. They'd be like, shut up, 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.040 that doesn't matter. And there's a reason for that. And 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.239 you can trace it all the way back to Decartes, 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.799 that's right. I studied decart in college a bit um 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.640 and the and this was a big deal. But in 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:23.679 the seventeenth century, Renee Decart proposed the idea of dualism 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.680 with the mind and body, and you think, like, okay, 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:28.680 you know, great, that kind of makes sense in a way, 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.040 especially in the seventeenth century. But that was a big 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:34.880 deal that really it was sort of a sea change 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:39.160 in in a fundamental split that happened, which in which 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:44.200 European medical science, uh was was trying to separate from 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:47.480 the Church as far as their oversight goes. But what 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.200 the real effect was was what I was talking about was, 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.119 you know, mental illnesses were really good distinct separate thing 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:58.840 from physical maladies. Yeah, and still today in the in 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.200 in Western medicine, we do not combine those two, which is, 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.280 you know, there's other cultures like traditional Chinese medicine, um, 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.360 Indian I are Vedic medicine that they see mental and 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:15.359 physical pain as pretty much, at the very least deeply connected, 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:19.040 not too completely separate things, one of which may or 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.520 may not exist like we believe in Western medicine. And 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:24.480 to to be able to trace it back to like 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.960 this point where um, the early medical doctors were like 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.240 I call body and the Church is like I call mind, 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.080 and they just kind of went their separate ways. I 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.680 just find that fascinating, and it's landed us in this 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:39.080 problem where we are in the United States and other 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:43.080 Western countries where we don't we really give short shrift 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.280 to emotional pain. But we're learning more and more that 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:50.440 it is just as real and just as sometimes unbearable 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:53.720 as physical pain, sometimes worse because there's not a lot 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:58.040 of recognized treatments for it. Yet when they called mind 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:01.320 and body, who was shirts and who was skinned? Uh 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.480 they were both skins. Oh yeah, it was a sixty 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:08.640 day Uh. People like Sigmund Freud. You know, it's not 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.600 like no one ever talked about emotional pain in the West, 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:14.760 or it was studied or anything like that. It's just 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.800 that separation. Freud he did write about psychological pain, as 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.640 did a lot of people that followed Freud or you know, 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.960 not sorry acolytes of Floyd, but people that followed after him. Um, 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.640 and you know kind of wrote about, you know, more 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:32.039 in the terms of like mourning, like mourning someone's death 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.880 or maybe a big romantic loss or something. And this 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.599 emptiness or loneliness or sadness you might feel. But that's 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.040 still not where we're what we're talking about today, which 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.400 is this mind body connection where and as we'll see 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:51.279 where study after study kind of um. And again it's 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:53.080 a very hard thing to kind of prove outright, but 0:04:53.760 --> 0:05:00.479 strong correlations between physical conditions and emotional distress. Yeah, And 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.279 I think Freud was still talking about it. He was saying, like, yes, 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:07.360 you actually feel pain when you suffer a loss, like 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.120 a death or a breakup or something like that. But 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:13.400 it's become a little more a lot more sophisticated since 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:17.880 Freud's time. Um, there's a term called psychic that a 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:24.760 guy named Edwin Schneidman coin and m is psychic. It's 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:30.600 so nineties. That is a nineties term, psychic all one word, right, 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.440 And Edwin Schneidman, Um, he did coin in ninety three 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.240 and um he he basically said it's a it's a 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:41.440 it's just another term for psychological anguish um and that 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.239 he and he was a suicideologist, UM. And he believed 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:49.280 that psychic was essentially behind every single um suicide that 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.720 was ever attempted or completed. UM. And he kind of 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.479 chalked it up to a few different things. And you'll 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:57.560 kind of see in the nineties and then kind of 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.000 expanding today, it's kind of expanded in contracted until we 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.360 finally arrived at a decent definition. But all of it 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:09.960 has to do with you are suddenly experiencing a terrible 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.640 discrepancy between the way you think things should be and 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:17.480 the way they suddenly are. And you are, you are, 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:22.560 you're you feel like you yourself are at fault somehow. Yeah, 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.120 and there's you know again. And as we'll see, it's 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.560 a very hard thing to study. Uh, it's pain period 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:32.200 as super subjective. As we all know, physical pain is subjective. 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:36.360 Emotional pain maybe, well it's probably about equally subjective now 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.640 that I think about it. But there's not, as Olivia 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.359 points out, there's not a one to one relationship between 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:46.800 like an event and what he refers to his psychic Like, 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.920 somebody may be really good at getting over stuff like 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.400 that a lot better than someone else. Um, the level 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:59.200 of the event may not necessarily always correlate to a 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:03.320 level of emotional pain and any given individual. Um, some 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:07.000 people maybe can process somebody's passing or death really really 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:10.840 well because uh, they just get drunk all the time. 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:13.880 That's a joke, but we will talk about that. That's 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:17.000 a big component of all this stuff, definitely, But the 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:19.760 point is like what Freud was talking about is something 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.720 like an event happens or a loss happens. We realize 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.560 over the years that it's not always just that, and 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:29.239 there can be chronic, a chronic emotional pain that people 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:33.720 feel that's UH tied to certain disorders of obviously depression 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.360 UH can be a big factor. But all these things 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:40.720 aren't mutually exclusive either now and the other thing that 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.840 emerges is what we've all always known. All of us 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:48.120 experience emotional pain to some degree or another, like you said, 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:53.160 at different times, and some people chronically unfortunately, And they finally, 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.920 I guess in the last ten years maybe have come 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.720 up with a consensus definition for what I can tell. 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.960 They say that emotional pain, which by the way, is 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:09.280 interchangeable with psychological pain, psychical pain, psychic it's all the 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:13.720 same thing. But emotional pain is a lasting, unsustainable and 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:18.560 unpleasant feeling resulting from negative appraisal of an inability or 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:23.440 deficiency of the self. So that the basic emotion of 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:29.200 psychic pain, psychological pain, emotional pain is self disappointment because 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:31.920 you're in an adversive state where you have a high 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.440 self awareness of inadequacy, and that that is what you 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:39.000 can kind of trace all of it back to yeah, 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.600 and we'll talk about physical symptoms. There can be very 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:46.280 specific things at times, like upset stomach or you know, 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.319 things that might be brought on by what you might 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:53.280 think of his stress. But if you experience sort of 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.560 h chronic mental anguish and emotional pain, a lot of 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:02.319 times it is just a an oh, we're all um 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:06.440 body uh wounded nous that you might feel that you 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.080 can't specifically, And that's sort of one of the issues 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.880 is it's you don't walk into a doctor in America 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.560 and say, my, I just my whole body feels off 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.400 because I'm an emotional distress. They're gonna say, you've called 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.960 the wrong doctor right here, take these sugar pills at home, 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:27.040 but also give me five thousand dollars and I'm sorry 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.719 about the weight. So they're not really sorry about the way. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:32.680 They may say that chuck, but they don't mean it. 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.079 What's a social pain? Social pain is either the same 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.160 thing as emotional pain, or it's kind of a subset 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.800 of it. But it's they seem to strictly um. They 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:49.439 say it's strictly from social interactions like rejection, being dumped, um, 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:55.040 damage to your social connections. I saw m fomo that 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.480 would be one. Yeah, it's like a joke that people say, 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.000 but that that is very real with some people now, right, 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:04.000 And so like when you when you feel fomo, right, 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.200 you you feel bad? You don't it's not just in 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.600 your head. It's so hard to get across, and it's 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:14.040 almost totally unnecessary to get across because all of us 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:17.000 have experienced emotional pain at some time or another. But 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:20.880 if you've ever stopped and thought about it, why why 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.120 would your body feel at all weird? Why wouldn't it 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.480 just be strictly in your emotions are strictly in your 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:29.560 head or strictly in your mind, like I've got this 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.719 problem and I can't stop thinking about it instead or 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:35.120 in addition to that, because that definitely happens to your 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:41.600 body actually feels bad, wrong, off, pain, tense because of 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.360 this emotional pain. And they actually believe this, to me, 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:49.040 is the fact of the podcast. They believe that emotional 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.679 pain came along as a result of our increasing socialization 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:55.840 from the time we were primates up until now, and 0:10:55.920 --> 0:11:02.160 it piggybacked on our existing uh physical pain system. And 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:09.360 because social bonds were so important to um survival that 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.840 it was. It became a thing where you felt pain 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:18.439 when those social bonds were threatened or broken. Right Like, uh, 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:22.480 took took very sore from long hunt today, but took 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:27.080 took feel especially painful today because Took Took not invited 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:34.040 the main fire. It took. Took doesn't use prepositions, should he? 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:42.960 I don't know. It depends if he's like unfrozen caveman lawyer. Yes. So. 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.480 So the thing is is what took Tuk would have 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:49.240 learned from their chuck from that experiences, I need to, like, 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:51.800 I need to pay attention to this. There's something I'm 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.560 doing wrong, There's something somebody else is doing wrong, and 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.560 I need to remedy. I need to do something different 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.640 in the future. And then in that way my social 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.080 connections will be stronger. And when a saber tooth tired 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.000 comes along, I'll have my crew to take care of 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:10.640 it rather than its just making a meal out of me. Yeah, 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:14.240 this is a great setup, I think so too. Should 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.560 we take a break, Yes, let's all right. We'll be 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.960 right back to talk more and hopefully make a few 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:49.640 other little jokes about emotional pain. This is a tough 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:54.240 one to joke. About. Yeah, no it is, but I 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.319 think more than anything, to me, it's a tough one 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.480 to talk about, and I don't I don't understand why. 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.040 Maybe it's because it's not fully understood. Yeah, yeah, so 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.320 I'm having trouble understanding or explaining it, you know. Yeah. 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.200 And when I say joke about, of course I mean 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:12.199 joke alongside. Uh. None of this is is joke worthy. 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.880 But we're a part part comedy show, so we try 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.880 to work in these angles when we can, right. Yes, 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.560 the funniest is when we explained that making jokes about 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.520 it and why why we really should know that they 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.720 don't really count. I think new people come along. Uh, 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.760 did you see somebody was very upset about your awesome, 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:39.400 awesome Midwest joke for which one from Edmond Fitzgerald podcast. 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.200 Somebody wrote in and I didn't even remember because we 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.560 recorded a lot to get ahead for Christmas, but I 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.840 didn't even remember the joke. Somebody was very offended, and 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.480 I said, well, what happened? I said, I feel like 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.480 it was probably a joke that I could explain, but 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:55.880 just let me know what happened and then rot back 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.760 and it was a great joke, I said. I was 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:00.600 trying to think of the game, the card game yuker. 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.600 Oh no, it's in tarot tarot cards. And I said, 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.280 what was that game? I said that Midwesterners often played, 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:12.640 and you get me out of here. And then this person, 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:14.520 as I said, it was just a joke, of course, 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:16.640 and that you're from the Midwest, you can say that 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:18.600 in this person, I think felt a little bad, even 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.600 which I then felt bad about. Uh, And that's no 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.320 good for anyone. Now the rest of us feel bad 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.160 because you shared it, and we all feel bad for 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.440 you and the other person. All right, Can we talk 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:34.960 about how mental pain affects the body? Yes, because here's 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.800 the point. It's not just that mental pain exists. It 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.480 actually is real pain. And thanks to our friend the 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.840 Wonder Machine, the f m R, I, we actually know 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:49.240 that the same parts of your brain that are responsible 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:53.640 for experiencing different types of physical pain, uh, they light up, 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.720 they become active in the presence of emotional pain. And 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:01.000 they did this by basically inflicting emotional pain poor participant 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.560 studies and then seeing what their brains did. Yeah, and 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.480 here's the thing with a lot of these studies, what's 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.600 important I think to know is that uh, it wasn't 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:15.040 necessarily in an an exact in an exact time of crisis, 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.880 like you know, we wanted to gather up people who 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.000 had been dumped the day before, because of course you're 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.000 going to be in that sort of state of mind 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:25.840 at the time. Like most of these studies, you'll you'll 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.920 see it's like studying your brain during resting rates or 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.000 your heart during resting rates, and it's you know, it 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.000 feels like it's more. And I'm not saying, you know, 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.200 they're all in emotional pain still, but they didn't like 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:43.320 juice these studies by getting just these like recently devastated people, 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:46.000 I guess is what I'm trying to say right at first. 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.360 And some of the techniques they use is just take 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.960 an average person off the street and say we want 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:55.240 to inflict emotional pain on you. They would um, in 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.680 the experiment, they would be playing a game with other subjects, 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:03.520 and um they would exclude the actual study participant from 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.320 the game, or they would tell them that one of 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:10.320 the other participants um admitted to not liking them and 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.040 and they would show him rejection theme pictures stuff like that, 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:16.080 and it was coming up with some pretty tepid results. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.360 But then there was a guy named Ethan Cross from 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:26.920 University of Michigan. Yeah, he'll make you jump jump for 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.960 his study results. I wonder if he wears his clothes backwards. 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:34.440 When those kids made like a million dollars from wearing 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.480 their clothes backwards at the mall once, just to go 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:39.680 out there and do that. That's how they I mean, no, 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:41.640 that's how they. That's how they were discovered at the 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:48.000 mall discovered them. Yeah, it is a world. But anyway, 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:53.640 back to Ethan Criss Cross. He used the Wonder Machine, 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.560 but he did recruit people who were in an intense 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:01.560 negative emotional state who had just been recently dumped and 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.520 we're not taking it very well. And he put them 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.840 in the Wonder machine and he said, hey, here's a 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.919 picture about your ex that just dumped you. For a 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.800 picture of them. Now think about some memory of them 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.000 dumping you and how bad it feels. And then he 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.840 sat there with a clipboard and a pencil and went 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:23.320 very interesting, I see, and watched their brains do different 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.760 things and they said, how did you get that picture? 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:29.960 Don't ask about that. They give him a zap when 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.040 they asked too many questions. Uh yeah, And I think 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.280 there were about forty people in this study. Uh, and 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:42.080 again he eventually used he used the fm R I eventually, right, Yes, 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:46.480 And what he he found out was that the negative 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:52.000 emotional state uh lit up the sensory and effective brain 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.760 areas just like putting like hot heat on their arms. 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.280 So this physical heat and this sort of made a 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:01.040 little sense to me as far as like if you 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:05.440 get like, if I get really really intensely upset about something, 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:09.040 I feel like my head is on fire. Uh, So 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.200 that I think there's something about heat, and then maybe 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.800 that's why I used it. But they would like I 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:15.520 don't think they would burn them, burn them, but they 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.400 would put what was called a painful heat on their forearm. 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:20.879 And found that the FMR I lit up just the 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.240 same as with the emotional pain. Yeah. And so that 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.359 supported something that he had also found in a review 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:32.960 of existing literature that, um, they're the brain regions associated 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:37.119 with our effective experience about the aversive quality of pain, 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:42.879 which is, um, we like, if you hurt yourself physically, right, Um, 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:47.239 you are you're suffering. That suffering is your desire for 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:49.560 that pain to stop. You wanted to go away. It's 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.760 like hurting you um existentially, it goes beyond just the 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:59.480 actual physical experience, the sensory experience of it. That's them, 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:03.760 that's the effective experience of physical pain. And that region 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.879 of the brain definitely lights up the same for emotional 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:10.560 pain and physical pain, because we're suffering from both equally. 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.000 But what Cross said or showed was that, no, your 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.520 actual sensory experience, like what your body feels when you're 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.000 physically in pain, is the same when you're in emotionally 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:25.280 in pain. So he said, ipso facto, my research shows 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:28.240 emotional pain and physical pain, as far as the body 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:32.320 is concerned, is the same thing. It's really just your 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:36.040 doctor in the United States that is having trouble admitting 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.879 this whole thing. All the evidence is showing your body 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.760 is fully aware that they're the same. Yeah, And it's 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.000 I don't know, it's so frustrating because, like I said, 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:48.560 when I think everybody, when they get really emotionally upset, 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:51.879 the first thing that happens is your body is going 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.200 to start physically reacting. Like I said, my head gets 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:59.720 flush and hot, and like the heart races, and it's 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.480 this almost like this fear response in me. Uh So 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:06.400 it's hard to believe that you know, something like fight 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.920 or flight, it's just so universally accepted. But something like this, 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.119 which to me is the same thing going on, it 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:16.480 can still be pooh pooed. Yeah, poop poo for now, 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:19.240 but not much longer, I predict and for me, chuck, 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.360 since we're throwing out our own stories. If I suffer 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:26.199 some sort of emotional injury or whatever, right usually like 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:30.199 embarrassment or something like that, it washes over me. Is 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:32.320 the best way I can put it, basically, from the 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:34.960 back of my head down the front and then through 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:38.959 my chest and abdomen. And I actually saw research that 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:43.280 suggested UM the vagus nerve that connects the brain through 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.280 the chests and your abdomen and into your I believe 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:51.240 your JOHNK area because it's activated during orgasms. From our 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:55.000 orgasm episode, you'rs back. I think the medical term is 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:59.840 your bits, but they okay, so they they they found 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:05.919 that the anterior singular cortex activates the vegas nerve, which 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.960 UM can over become overstimulated in the presence of a 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:14.000 huge jolt of emotion, which can transfer to the vegas nerve, 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:16.880 which can make you feel in your chest and abdomen 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.800 like there's some sort of discomfort or sensation. Again, an 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:24.640 emotion created a physical response. You're not You're not crazy, 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:28.639 you really are feeling that way. Yeah, And like I 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.520 remember feeling this stuff from the time I even knew 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.920 what feelings were. You know, nobody likes to be picked last. 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:40.000 As far as the social pain, Uh no, one likes 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.800 to be embarrassed in front of people. But that stuff 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:47.040 doesn't stop, you know, um, the social thing. Like when 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:50.120 we were talking about it, it might sound like, um, 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.760 obviously something you will experience an adolescence and growing up, 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:58.720 but that stuff doesn't go away. Uh No, it really doesn't. 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.400 Me No, no, same here. I thought about making that joke, 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.120 but then I pulled it back from the edge. I mean, 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:09.040 maybe some people have really squared themselves away such, but 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:12.879 to me, it's just seems like part of in you know, 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:14.919 a bunch of the history that we kind of truncated 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:17.000 at the beginning. Talked about it being part of the 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:20.760 human condition, and I just think that's so obviously true, 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.240 It's totally true. I think people who don't have to 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:26.400 deal with that are really just dealing with it less 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:29.520 than other people. I don't think anybody's ever managed to 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:33.520 eradicate emotional pain from their lives, you know, But in 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:35.399 the people that seem like they've got it all together 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:39.960 could be suffering the worst. You never know, they might 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:42.119 just be really good at at burying that stuff or 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:47.400 what have you, like Flanders types exactly. There's one other 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:50.960 thing about the the comparison, though, of physical pain and 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:53.719 emotional pain, that really is a difference, and that is 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:56.639 that when you're experiencing physical pain, there's usually something you 0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:59.119 can do to kind of stem it off immediately. Do 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:01.119 you put your hand like a hot of it, You 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:03.600 can pull your hand away. But if you experience like 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:08.479 an emotional injury, uh, and you feel emotional pain, you 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:11.040 can't like hold your hand, you can't run it underwater, 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:13.639 you can't. There's nothing you can do right then to 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:18.600 stop it except for essentially self soothed as best you 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:22.440 can until it subsides. Whereas with physical pain there's often 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:25.760 stuff you can do to kind of treat it immediately. Yeah, 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:28.560 what I think, and that's an acute thing, I totally agree. 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:33.000 But what I think it's interesting is that like evolutionarily speaking, 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.600 emotional pain is a signal, just like a physical pain 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:39.679 is a signal to like tend to yourself in some 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:42.960 way and whenever. And we get a lot of emails 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:47.040 from people that are suffering great deals of emotional pain, 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:51.080 like listeners, you would not believe some of the emails 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:54.040 we get of people that are in such distress. And 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:56.399 I always try to say the same thing, which is 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:59.760 like and usually it's in reference to the podcast, kind 0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:01.800 of help can calm them down in some way, which 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:04.439 is really nice to hear. But always tell people the 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:07.000 same way as which is like, hey, listen, get some 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:11.040 help and treat yourself right, like drink a lot of water, 0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:15.320 go for a walk, Like these are literal physical things 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:18.440 that you can do that will it's not a cure, 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:21.840