1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 3 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, and we're all feeling 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: rather chipper today. And this is stuff you should not know. 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: Not emotionally painful is not at all true. I'm just 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: really good at masking mine. Oh how about you. I'm 7 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: feeling pretty good today. I'm glad man in this moment. 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: But this is a This is an interesting topic because, 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: as we'll see when we cover our history section here 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: at the beginning. And thanks to Olivia for helping out 11 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: with this one, right, wouldnt Olivia? Yeah? This was she 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: wrote this right around Christmas. Kind of bad. Yeah, it's 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: like one of puppies next right, Uh. We will soon 14 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: learn and there's probably no surprise that things like emotional 15 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: pain in and mental distress have quite often and still 16 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: quite often take a back seat in the West and 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: then the medical world. And it's just sort of that's 18 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: sort of it's incredibly sad that that's the case. Yeah, 19 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: And just to do it just a brief sketch, emotional 20 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,559 Speaker 1: pain is exactly what you've always thought it was. There's nothing, 21 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, there's no new concept to it that you 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: was gonna be like, oh, that's emotional pain. Anytime you 23 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: felt like heartache, sadness, embarrassment, something where you felt like 24 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: your body was responding to a sudden emotion, that's that's 25 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,479 Speaker 1: emotional pain, right, um. And it's just a part of life. 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: People have said it's a part of life for a 27 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: very long time. If you're a Buddhist, it is definitely 28 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: a part of life. Same with Christians. It's just kind 29 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: of how people have approached it. But you said something 30 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: that I didn't realize that here in the West. I mean, 31 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: I guess I realized this part here in the West. 32 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: If you go to a doctor and you say I'm 33 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: having emotional pain, they're like, actually, no, you're not. It's 34 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: it's real pain and your leg is missing right now 35 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: and I need to sew it up. And you're like no, 36 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: but I'm emotionally affected by this. They'd be like, shut up, 37 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: that doesn't matter. And there's a reason for that. And 38 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 1: you can trace it all the way back to Decartes, 39 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 1: that's right. I studied decart in college a bit um 40 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: and the and this was a big deal. But in 41 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 1: the seventeenth century, Renee Decart proposed the idea of dualism 42 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: with the mind and body, and you think, like, okay, 43 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: you know, great, that kind of makes sense in a way, 44 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: especially in the seventeenth century. But that was a big 45 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: deal that really it was sort of a sea change 46 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: in in a fundamental split that happened, which in which 47 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: European medical science, uh was was trying to separate from 48 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: the Church as far as their oversight goes. But what 49 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: the real effect was was what I was talking about was, 50 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 1: you know, mental illnesses were really good distinct separate thing 51 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: from physical maladies. Yeah, and still today in the in 52 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: in Western medicine, we do not combine those two, which is, 53 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, there's other cultures like traditional Chinese medicine, um, 54 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: Indian I are Vedic medicine that they see mental and 55 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 1: physical pain as pretty much, at the very least deeply connected, 56 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: not too completely separate things, one of which may or 57 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: may not exist like we believe in Western medicine. And 58 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: to to be able to trace it back to like 59 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: this point where um, the early medical doctors were like 60 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: I call body and the Church is like I call mind, 61 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: and they just kind of went their separate ways. I 62 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: just find that fascinating, and it's landed us in this 63 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: problem where we are in the United States and other 64 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: Western countries where we don't we really give short shrift 65 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: to emotional pain. But we're learning more and more that 66 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: it is just as real and just as sometimes unbearable 67 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: as physical pain, sometimes worse because there's not a lot 68 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: of recognized treatments for it. Yet when they called mind 69 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: and body, who was shirts and who was skinned? Uh 70 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: they were both skins. Oh yeah, it was a sixty 71 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: day Uh. People like Sigmund Freud. You know, it's not 72 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: like no one ever talked about emotional pain in the West, 73 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: or it was studied or anything like that. It's just 74 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: that separation. Freud he did write about psychological pain, as 75 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: did a lot of people that followed Freud or you know, 76 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: not sorry acolytes of Floyd, but people that followed after him. Um, 77 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: and you know kind of wrote about, you know, more 78 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: in the terms of like mourning, like mourning someone's death 79 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: or maybe a big romantic loss or something. And this 80 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: emptiness or loneliness or sadness you might feel. But that's 81 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: still not where we're what we're talking about today, which 82 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: is this mind body connection where and as we'll see 83 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: where study after study kind of um. And again it's 84 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: a very hard thing to kind of prove outright, but 85 00:04:53,760 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: strong correlations between physical conditions and emotional distress. Yeah, And 86 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: I think Freud was still talking about it. He was saying, like, yes, 87 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: you actually feel pain when you suffer a loss, like 88 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: a death or a breakup or something like that. But 89 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: it's become a little more a lot more sophisticated since 90 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: Freud's time. Um, there's a term called psychic that a 91 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: guy named Edwin Schneidman coin and m is psychic. It's 92 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: so nineties. That is a nineties term, psychic all one word, right, 93 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: And Edwin Schneidman, Um, he did coin in ninety three 94 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: and um he he basically said it's a it's a 95 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: it's just another term for psychological anguish um and that 96 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,239 Speaker 1: he and he was a suicideologist, UM. And he believed 97 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: that psychic was essentially behind every single um suicide that 98 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: was ever attempted or completed. UM. And he kind of 99 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: chalked it up to a few different things. And you'll 100 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: kind of see in the nineties and then kind of 101 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: expanding today, it's kind of expanded in contracted until we 102 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: finally arrived at a decent definition. But all of it 103 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: has to do with you are suddenly experiencing a terrible 104 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: discrepancy between the way you think things should be and 105 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: the way they suddenly are. And you are, you are, 106 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: you're you feel like you yourself are at fault somehow. Yeah, 107 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: and there's you know again. And as we'll see, it's 108 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: a very hard thing to study. Uh, it's pain period 109 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: as super subjective. As we all know, physical pain is subjective. 110 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: Emotional pain maybe, well it's probably about equally subjective now 111 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: that I think about it. But there's not, as Olivia 112 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 1: points out, there's not a one to one relationship between 113 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: like an event and what he refers to his psychic Like, 114 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: somebody may be really good at getting over stuff like 115 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: that a lot better than someone else. Um, the level 116 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: of the event may not necessarily always correlate to a 117 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: level of emotional pain and any given individual. Um, some 118 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: people maybe can process somebody's passing or death really really 119 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: well because uh, they just get drunk all the time. 120 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: That's a joke, but we will talk about that. That's 121 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: a big component of all this stuff, definitely, But the 122 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: point is like what Freud was talking about is something 123 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: like an event happens or a loss happens. We realize 124 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: over the years that it's not always just that, and 125 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,239 Speaker 1: there can be chronic, a chronic emotional pain that people 126 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: feel that's UH tied to certain disorders of obviously depression 127 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: UH can be a big factor. But all these things 128 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: aren't mutually exclusive either now and the other thing that 129 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: emerges is what we've all always known. All of us 130 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: experience emotional pain to some degree or another, like you said, 131 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: at different times, and some people chronically unfortunately, And they finally, 132 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: I guess in the last ten years maybe have come 133 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: up with a consensus definition for what I can tell. 134 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: They say that emotional pain, which by the way, is 135 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: interchangeable with psychological pain, psychical pain, psychic it's all the 136 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: same thing. But emotional pain is a lasting, unsustainable and 137 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: unpleasant feeling resulting from negative appraisal of an inability or 138 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: deficiency of the self. So that the basic emotion of 139 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: psychic pain, psychological pain, emotional pain is self disappointment because 140 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: you're in an adversive state where you have a high 141 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: self awareness of inadequacy, and that that is what you 142 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: can kind of trace all of it back to yeah, 143 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about physical symptoms. There can be very 144 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: specific things at times, like upset stomach or you know, 145 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 1: things that might be brought on by what you might 146 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: think of his stress. But if you experience sort of 147 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: h chronic mental anguish and emotional pain, a lot of 148 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: times it is just a an oh, we're all um 149 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: body uh wounded nous that you might feel that you 150 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: can't specifically, And that's sort of one of the issues 151 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: is it's you don't walk into a doctor in America 152 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: and say, my, I just my whole body feels off 153 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: because I'm an emotional distress. They're gonna say, you've called 154 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: the wrong doctor right here, take these sugar pills at home, 155 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: but also give me five thousand dollars and I'm sorry 156 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,719 Speaker 1: about the weight. So they're not really sorry about the way. 157 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: They may say that chuck, but they don't mean it. 158 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: What's a social pain? Social pain is either the same 159 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: thing as emotional pain, or it's kind of a subset 160 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: of it. But it's they seem to strictly um. They 161 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: say it's strictly from social interactions like rejection, being dumped, um, 162 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: damage to your social connections. I saw m fomo that 163 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: would be one. Yeah, it's like a joke that people say, 164 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: but that that is very real with some people now, right, 165 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: And so like when you when you feel fomo, right, 166 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: you you feel bad? You don't it's not just in 167 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: your head. It's so hard to get across, and it's 168 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: almost totally unnecessary to get across because all of us 169 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: have experienced emotional pain at some time or another. But 170 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: if you've ever stopped and thought about it, why why 171 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: would your body feel at all weird? Why wouldn't it 172 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: just be strictly in your emotions are strictly in your 173 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: head or strictly in your mind, like I've got this 174 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 1: problem and I can't stop thinking about it instead or 175 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: in addition to that, because that definitely happens to your 176 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: body actually feels bad, wrong, off, pain, tense because of 177 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: this emotional pain. And they actually believe this, to me, 178 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: is the fact of the podcast. They believe that emotional 179 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: pain came along as a result of our increasing socialization 180 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: from the time we were primates up until now, and 181 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: it piggybacked on our existing uh physical pain system. And 182 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: because social bonds were so important to um survival that 183 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: it was. It became a thing where you felt pain 184 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: when those social bonds were threatened or broken. Right Like, uh, 185 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: took took very sore from long hunt today, but took 186 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: took feel especially painful today because Took Took not invited 187 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: the main fire. It took. Took doesn't use prepositions, should he? 188 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. It depends if he's like unfrozen caveman lawyer. Yes. So. 189 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: So the thing is is what took Tuk would have 190 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: learned from their chuck from that experiences, I need to, like, 191 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: I need to pay attention to this. There's something I'm 192 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: doing wrong, There's something somebody else is doing wrong, and 193 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: I need to remedy. I need to do something different 194 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: in the future. And then in that way my social 195 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: connections will be stronger. And when a saber tooth tired 196 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: comes along, I'll have my crew to take care of 197 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: it rather than its just making a meal out of me. Yeah, 198 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: this is a great setup, I think so too. Should 199 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: we take a break, Yes, let's all right. We'll be 200 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: right back to talk more and hopefully make a few 201 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: other little jokes about emotional pain. This is a tough 202 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: one to joke. About. Yeah, no it is, but I 203 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: think more than anything, to me, it's a tough one 204 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: to talk about, and I don't I don't understand why. 205 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: Maybe it's because it's not fully understood. Yeah, yeah, so 206 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: I'm having trouble understanding or explaining it, you know. Yeah. 207 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: And when I say joke about, of course I mean 208 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 1: joke alongside. Uh. None of this is is joke worthy. 209 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: But we're a part part comedy show, so we try 210 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: to work in these angles when we can, right. Yes, 211 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: the funniest is when we explained that making jokes about 212 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: it and why why we really should know that they 213 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: don't really count. I think new people come along. Uh, 214 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: did you see somebody was very upset about your awesome, 215 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: awesome Midwest joke for which one from Edmond Fitzgerald podcast. 216 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: Somebody wrote in and I didn't even remember because we 217 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: recorded a lot to get ahead for Christmas, but I 218 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: didn't even remember the joke. Somebody was very offended, and 219 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: I said, well, what happened? I said, I feel like 220 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: it was probably a joke that I could explain, but 221 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: just let me know what happened and then rot back 222 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: and it was a great joke, I said. I was 223 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: trying to think of the game, the card game yuker. 224 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: Oh no, it's in tarot tarot cards. And I said, 225 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: what was that game? I said that Midwesterners often played, 226 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: and you get me out of here. And then this person, 227 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: as I said, it was just a joke, of course, 228 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: and that you're from the Midwest, you can say that 229 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: in this person, I think felt a little bad, even 230 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: which I then felt bad about. Uh, And that's no 231 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: good for anyone. Now the rest of us feel bad 232 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: because you shared it, and we all feel bad for 233 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: you and the other person. All right, Can we talk 234 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: about how mental pain affects the body? Yes, because here's 235 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: the point. It's not just that mental pain exists. It 236 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: actually is real pain. And thanks to our friend the 237 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: Wonder Machine, the f m R, I, we actually know 238 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: that the same parts of your brain that are responsible 239 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: for experiencing different types of physical pain, uh, they light up, 240 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: they become active in the presence of emotional pain. And 241 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: they did this by basically inflicting emotional pain poor participant 242 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: studies and then seeing what their brains did. Yeah, and 243 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: here's the thing with a lot of these studies, what's 244 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: important I think to know is that uh, it wasn't 245 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: necessarily in an an exact in an exact time of crisis, 246 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: like you know, we wanted to gather up people who 247 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: had been dumped the day before, because of course you're 248 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: going to be in that sort of state of mind 249 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: at the time. Like most of these studies, you'll you'll 250 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: see it's like studying your brain during resting rates or 251 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: your heart during resting rates, and it's you know, it 252 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: feels like it's more. And I'm not saying, you know, 253 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: they're all in emotional pain still, but they didn't like 254 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: juice these studies by getting just these like recently devastated people, 255 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: I guess is what I'm trying to say right at first. 256 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: And some of the techniques they use is just take 257 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: an average person off the street and say we want 258 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: to inflict emotional pain on you. They would um, in 259 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: the experiment, they would be playing a game with other subjects, 260 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: and um they would exclude the actual study participant from 261 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: the game, or they would tell them that one of 262 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: the other participants um admitted to not liking them and 263 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: and they would show him rejection theme pictures stuff like that, 264 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: and it was coming up with some pretty tepid results. 265 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: But then there was a guy named Ethan Cross from 266 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: University of Michigan. Yeah, he'll make you jump jump for 267 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: his study results. I wonder if he wears his clothes backwards. 268 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: When those kids made like a million dollars from wearing 269 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: their clothes backwards at the mall once, just to go 270 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: out there and do that. That's how they I mean, no, 271 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: that's how they. That's how they were discovered at the 272 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: mall discovered them. Yeah, it is a world. But anyway, 273 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: back to Ethan Criss Cross. He used the Wonder Machine, 274 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: but he did recruit people who were in an intense 275 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: negative emotional state who had just been recently dumped and 276 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: we're not taking it very well. And he put them 277 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: in the Wonder machine and he said, hey, here's a 278 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: picture about your ex that just dumped you. For a 279 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: picture of them. Now think about some memory of them 280 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: dumping you and how bad it feels. And then he 281 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: sat there with a clipboard and a pencil and went 282 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: very interesting, I see, and watched their brains do different 283 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: things and they said, how did you get that picture? 284 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: Don't ask about that. They give him a zap when 285 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: they asked too many questions. Uh yeah, And I think 286 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: there were about forty people in this study. Uh, and 287 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: again he eventually used he used the fm R I eventually, right, Yes, 288 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: And what he he found out was that the negative 289 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: emotional state uh lit up the sensory and effective brain 290 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: areas just like putting like hot heat on their arms. 291 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: So this physical heat and this sort of made a 292 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: little sense to me as far as like if you 293 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: get like, if I get really really intensely upset about something, 294 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: I feel like my head is on fire. Uh, So 295 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: that I think there's something about heat, and then maybe 296 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: that's why I used it. But they would like I 297 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: don't think they would burn them, burn them, but they 298 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: would put what was called a painful heat on their forearm. 299 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: And found that the FMR I lit up just the 300 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: same as with the emotional pain. Yeah. And so that 301 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: supported something that he had also found in a review 302 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: of existing literature that, um, they're the brain regions associated 303 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: with our effective experience about the aversive quality of pain, 304 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: which is, um, we like, if you hurt yourself physically, right, Um, 305 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,239 Speaker 1: you are you're suffering. That suffering is your desire for 306 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: that pain to stop. You wanted to go away. It's 307 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: like hurting you um existentially, it goes beyond just the 308 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: actual physical experience, the sensory experience of it. That's them, 309 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: that's the effective experience of physical pain. And that region 310 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: of the brain definitely lights up the same for emotional 311 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: pain and physical pain, because we're suffering from both equally. 312 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: But what Cross said or showed was that, no, your 313 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: actual sensory experience, like what your body feels when you're 314 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: physically in pain, is the same when you're in emotionally 315 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: in pain. So he said, ipso facto, my research shows 316 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: emotional pain and physical pain, as far as the body 317 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: is concerned, is the same thing. It's really just your 318 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: doctor in the United States that is having trouble admitting 319 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: this whole thing. All the evidence is showing your body 320 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: is fully aware that they're the same. Yeah, And it's 321 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's so frustrating because, like I said, 322 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: when I think everybody, when they get really emotionally upset, 323 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: the first thing that happens is your body is going 324 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: to start physically reacting. Like I said, my head gets 325 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: flush and hot, and like the heart races, and it's 326 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: this almost like this fear response in me. Uh So 327 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: it's hard to believe that you know, something like fight 328 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: or flight, it's just so universally accepted. But something like this, 329 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: which to me is the same thing going on, it 330 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: can still be pooh pooed. Yeah, poop poo for now, 331 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: but not much longer, I predict and for me, chuck, 332 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: since we're throwing out our own stories. If I suffer 333 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: some sort of emotional injury or whatever, right usually like 334 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: embarrassment or something like that, it washes over me. Is 335 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: the best way I can put it, basically, from the 336 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: back of my head down the front and then through 337 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 1: my chest and abdomen. And I actually saw research that 338 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: suggested UM the vagus nerve that connects the brain through 339 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: the chests and your abdomen and into your I believe 340 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: your JOHNK area because it's activated during orgasms. From our 341 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: orgasm episode, you'rs back. I think the medical term is 342 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: your bits, but they okay, so they they they found 343 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: that the anterior singular cortex activates the vegas nerve, which 344 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: UM can over become overstimulated in the presence of a 345 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: huge jolt of emotion, which can transfer to the vegas nerve, 346 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: which can make you feel in your chest and abdomen 347 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: like there's some sort of discomfort or sensation. Again, an 348 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: emotion created a physical response. You're not You're not crazy, 349 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: you really are feeling that way. Yeah, And like I 350 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: remember feeling this stuff from the time I even knew 351 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: what feelings were. You know, nobody likes to be picked last. 352 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: As far as the social pain, Uh no, one likes 353 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: to be embarrassed in front of people. But that stuff 354 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: doesn't stop, you know, um, the social thing. Like when 355 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: we were talking about it, it might sound like, um, 356 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: obviously something you will experience an adolescence and growing up, 357 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: but that stuff doesn't go away. Uh No, it really doesn't. 358 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: Me No, no, same here. I thought about making that joke, 359 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: but then I pulled it back from the edge. I mean, 360 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: maybe some people have really squared themselves away such, but 361 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: to me, it's just seems like part of in you know, 362 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: a bunch of the history that we kind of truncated 363 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: at the beginning. Talked about it being part of the 364 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: human condition, and I just think that's so obviously true, 365 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: It's totally true. I think people who don't have to 366 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: deal with that are really just dealing with it less 367 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: than other people. I don't think anybody's ever managed to 368 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: eradicate emotional pain from their lives, you know, But in 369 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: the people that seem like they've got it all together 370 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: could be suffering the worst. You never know, they might 371 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: just be really good at at burying that stuff or 372 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: what have you, like Flanders types exactly. There's one other 373 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: thing about the the comparison, though, of physical pain and 374 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,719 Speaker 1: emotional pain, that really is a difference, and that is 375 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: that when you're experiencing physical pain, there's usually something you 376 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: can do to kind of stem it off immediately. Do 377 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: you put your hand like a hot of it, You 378 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: can pull your hand away. But if you experience like 379 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,479 Speaker 1: an emotional injury, uh, and you feel emotional pain, you 380 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: can't like hold your hand, you can't run it underwater, 381 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: you can't. There's nothing you can do right then to 382 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: stop it except for essentially self soothed as best you 383 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: can until it subsides. Whereas with physical pain there's often 384 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: stuff you can do to kind of treat it immediately. Yeah, 385 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: what I think, and that's an acute thing, I totally agree. 386 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: But what I think it's interesting is that like evolutionarily speaking, 387 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: emotional pain is a signal, just like a physical pain 388 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 1: is a signal to like tend to yourself in some 389 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: way and whenever. And we get a lot of emails 390 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: from people that are suffering great deals of emotional pain, 391 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: like listeners, you would not believe some of the emails 392 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: we get of people that are in such distress. And 393 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: I always try to say the same thing, which is 394 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: like and usually it's in reference to the podcast, kind 395 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: of help can calm them down in some way, which 396 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: is really nice to hear. But always tell people the 397 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: same way as which is like, hey, listen, get some 398 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: help and treat yourself right, like drink a lot of water, 399 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: go for a walk, Like these are literal physical things 400 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: that you can do that will it's not a cure, 401 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: but it will certainly help alleviate acute symptoms. You know, 402 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: self soothe. Yeah, but it's it's more than self suit 403 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: to me, because it's like it's it's like, no, you 404 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: need to treat it like there's a physical problem, Like 405 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: that's why you should drink a lot of water and 406 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: go outside, and uh, it's soothing, but it's also doing 407 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: something to your body. And interestingly, we'll talk about things 408 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: you can do and you just nailed a bunch of them. 409 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: But apparently walking outside in nature, um is a really 410 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: great way to, um, I guess, alleviate emotional pain. And like, 411 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: if you have a forest, great, walk around the forest. 412 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: If you have a meadow, walk around the meadow. If 413 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: you have a public park, walk around the park. Just 414 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: getting outside can help a tremendous amount. Yeah, I agreed. 415 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 1: I think that's a really nice thing that you say 416 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: to people that chuck My pat responses, hey, man, keep 417 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: on trucking? Is hey just like that mud flap says Yeah, 418 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 1: no one ever writes back, although or if they do, 419 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: they're like even matter than they were before, They're more 420 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: upset than before. It's weird. People are strange. Uh. Do 421 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: you want to talk about drugs? Yeah, this is really 422 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: interesting to me. Uh, this first bit on a seat 423 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 1: a menafin because they and I had no idea about 424 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: any of this, but they have found out through studies 425 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: that a seeda menafin like thailand are or other types 426 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: of you know, generic pain killers, it actually can dull 427 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: you emotionally. UM. I'm wondering about to what degree, because 428 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: they say it can dull that like the social pain 429 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: that you might feel if your pomoed or left out 430 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: of something, Uh, it can emotionally blunt your reactions that 431 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: other Like if somebody tells you about something bad, you 432 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: can be I guess less empathetic if you're taking a 433 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: seat a menafin, And that was really surprising. The converse 434 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: is true too, You're because you're less empathetic, you experience 435 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: fewer positive emotions too. So the weird thing is is 436 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: it's not like it affects your brain or your processing 437 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: of events you're fully aware of, Like, this is a 438 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: really great thing my friends telling me, and I understand 439 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: that my friend is uh is proud, reasonably proud for this, 440 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: but I don't feel at all happy for them because 441 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: of the sea a menafin. That's a really weird effect. 442 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 1: I wonder how much and how pronounced, Like I don't know, Yeah, 443 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: I need to I want to follow up on that guy. 444 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: I don't really ever take that stuff that much. But 445 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: but I feel like, even you know, just a few 446 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: times you have taken it, if it was a pronounced effect, 447 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: you probably would have noticed it. Probably, you know what 448 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like if you're if your hand is suddenly 449 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: making trails of itself, even though that's the first time 450 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: I mean you've taken this, you noticed that that happened. 451 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: I would because it was a pronounced effect. Same thing 452 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: with you know, emotions being blunted with a Sina benefit 453 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: probably good point. Opioids obviously is something we can't not 454 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: talk about, uh such an you know, we we should 455 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: probably tackle bits and pieces of the opioid epidemic in 456 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: full episodes. But uh, opioids are interesting in that sometimes 457 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 1: you might be taking them for a real physical malady 458 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: and you happen upon the um the emotional relief that 459 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 1: all of a sudden feels good to you when you 460 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: take an opioid, whereas other people that is exactly what 461 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: they're seeking when they're like med seeking or buying pills 462 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: on the black market or whatever. Yeah, which is a 463 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: huge problem. And it's you know, obviously not just opioids, 464 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: but alcohol and food, um, basically, anything that can give 465 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 1: you some sort of positive feeling can be you know, 466 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: used to stave off emotional pain. That that is not 467 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: the way to do it, though, but you know a 468 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: lot of people do do it that way, and it's 469 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: tough to blame them, especially if they haven't found a 470 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: better way yet to deal with them. So you know, 471 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: I mentioned before that pain, all kinds of pain is 472 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: very subjective, and especially emotional pain, and obviously because of that, 473 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: it's a really hard thing to to quantify. Uh. We've 474 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: talked about the physical pain scale that was developed, but 475 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: there have been various attempts over the years at mental 476 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: pain scales, and they've never really all agreed like, hey, 477 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: this is the really really good one because there's scores 478 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: of data behind it, and they talked with a bunch 479 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: of people who live with mental pain and at all 480 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: they kind of signed off on it. It's weird that 481 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: they haven't really done that, but they've The long story 482 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: short is they've never been able to land on a 483 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: really great one, although I think one they do kind 484 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: of use, right, the Orbach one. Yeah, they used the 485 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: Orbach and michaelins Or mental pain scale pretty frequently. But 486 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: the problem is there was a review of ten major 487 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: scales that are used around the world, um that was 488 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: published in two in the British Medical Journal, and they 489 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: said none of these seem to be valid, Like they're 490 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: all they might as well all be like tea leaves 491 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: and lizard guts, like that's that's as as good as 492 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,719 Speaker 1: they are. At really nailing down emotional pain or quantifying it. 493 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: So they said, don't we shouldn't give up or anything 494 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: like that. We just need to figure out how to 495 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: do it better. So essentially the upshot is there's no 496 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: way at the moment to accurately measure emotional pain, and 497 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: then I guess figure out how to treat it depending 498 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: on the measurement from there. Why else would you want 499 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: to measure it? Yeah, I guess so, Because I was 500 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: about to say why, I feel like sometimes a discipline 501 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: can get so hung up on something like this that 502 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: it thwarts progress. Uh. So I hope that's not the case. 503 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: It's called getting wonky. Uh. It's no surprise. We mentioned 504 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: a little bit earlier about other conditions related to mental pain. 505 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: I guess code morbidities for lack of a better word. 506 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: But heartbreak you mentioned is obviously one of the big ones. 507 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: What I found interesting in this is that some people 508 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: have UM like in heartbreak two drug withdrawal. And it 509 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense because when you are in 510 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: love UM and especially if you've ever been sort of 511 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: that new love, if you've ever been newly in love, 512 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: but that really flamed out fast, and it's taken away 513 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: from you. UM, that's sort of like drug withdrawal, because 514 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: you've got all sorts of uh dopamine and oxytocin and 515 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: things firing when you have that fresh new love happening, 516 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: and if that's taken away, then it's like taking away 517 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: a feel good drug. Yeah, welcome to six to ninth grade, 518 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: six ninth man boy through through college. Okay, sure, fair enough. 519 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to sixth grade through the rest of your life. 520 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: About that, the thing is is, because you're experiencing this, 521 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,239 Speaker 1: and because you're experiencing stress, like when you when you 522 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: undergo rejection or a sense of betrayal or a sense 523 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: of loss, your body actually does reliefs cortissolve, So you 524 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: actually are experiencing stress, and you actually can have physical 525 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: symptoms from that, like digestive problems, tough to sleep, your 526 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: immune system is down, you might get sick. And then 527 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: we did an episode a long time ago UM called 528 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: can you die of a broken Heart? And then yes 529 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: you can. There's something called taco subo cardiomyopathy, which is 530 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: a sudden emotional or physical stressor basically weakens the heart 531 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: and you basically have a heart attack from it, possibly 532 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: from being dumped. If it's bad enough. I knew that 533 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: sounded super familiar. I say, before we go any further, Chuck, 534 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: we take our last break. How about that, let's do 535 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: it so. I think, UM, one of the first things 536 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: people think about when they think of emotional pain is depression, 537 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: Like there's you know, there are people out there who 538 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: have depression, and you can make an argument that with 539 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: depression you're suffering chronic emotional pain. What they found, though, 540 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: is that people with emotional pain, if you if people 541 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: with depression, if you have really high levels of emotional pain, 542 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily correlated with the UM the largest burden 543 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: of depression. So if you put ten people together, you've 544 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: got one guy who's the most suppressed of all, he's 545 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: not necessarily the person with the greatest levels of emotional pain, 546 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: which suggests that depression, UM and emotional pain are not 547 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: one and the same. Depressions its own thing has other symptoms. 548 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: It's just correlates very strongly with emotional pain, which seems 549 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: to be one of the leading symptoms of depression, but 550 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: not with depression. Is they're not interchangeable. Yeah, and and 551 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: a lot of these that we're talking about here, like 552 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: they're weaving in and out of each other all the 553 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: time in some cases. And but I think the distinction 554 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: is still important to make though you know it, rather 555 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: than just lumping it in as all one kind of thing. Um. 556 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,479 Speaker 1: And eating disorders to a lot of people are like, 557 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: you've got any disorder, you really like the food, huh. 558 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: And most people who treat eating disorders are aware that 559 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: it has very little to do with food. Food just 560 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: happens to be something that, um, these people can use 561 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: to cope, that they can use to uh feel better 562 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: about themselves or forget or distract themselves for a little while. 563 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: But really what they're doing, it's dealing with um, emotional 564 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: pain that they don't have a better way to deal with, 565 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,720 Speaker 1: so they turn to food. That's what eating disorders are. Yeah, 566 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 1: there was a study in that I'm surprised it wasn't higher, honestly, 567 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: that found that of disordered eating patients experienced significant mental 568 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,439 Speaker 1: pain compared to six percent of the control So that's 569 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: quite a jump. Yeah, I mean that's huge. It's pretty 570 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: much all you need to sing, uh, well, we've got 571 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: well this is sort of the big one. Um. I 572 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: mean they're all big, but borderline personality disorder bp D. UM. 573 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: This maybe sort of at the top of the ladder 574 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: as far as what might cause the most consistent and 575 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: the worst kind of mental pain that someone UH might 576 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: suffer because a lot of times, for many reasons, but 577 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: a lot of times, UH, you suffer from bp D 578 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: because of childhood abuse or childhood neglect. Uh. Sometimes it's genets. 579 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: There's some gener edics thrown in there, but you know, 580 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 1: this is stuff that's very very deeply rooted in somebody. Yeah, 581 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: And so the it's chronic mental pain UM, especially those 582 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: related to narcissistic wounds, where you feel a sense of 583 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: rejection in It just completely undermines your sense of self 584 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: worth and pride. But the way that it manifests itself 585 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: and people with borderline personality disorder is that they might 586 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: have inappropriate anger, They might UM dissociate from themselves or reality. 587 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: They might feel emptiness. UM there are emotionally unstable in 588 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: most cases. And what I saw it UM ascribed to 589 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 1: is that essentially because of that childhood neglect or abuse 590 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: or trauma of some sort there, they become so afraid 591 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: of being abandoned that they actually alienate people with their behavior. 592 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: That's that, which that sounds to be like a old 593 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,359 Speaker 1: medieval curse essentially, like the more you try to keep 594 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: people around, the further way they're going to get and 595 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: you're really gonna want them to be around you. That 596 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: sounds about as awful and affliction as you can have. Really. Yeah, 597 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: and you know, you shouldn't be surprised that if you 598 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: suffer from borderline personality disorder, uh, you're way more likely 599 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: to abuse or missuse substances. Uh, maybe suffer from that 600 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: eating disorder we were talking about, have obviously anxiety depression, uh, 601 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: and even be at risk or suicide. Yeah, that's I 602 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: think we should do a BPD episode someday. Yeah, there's 603 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: a lot there, for sure. There's also something called non 604 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,919 Speaker 1: suicidal self injury and it is a fairly new diagnosis 605 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: as far as the d s M is concerned. UM, 606 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: and it can be its own symptom, it can be 607 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: a symptom of other things. Like people with BPD, UM 608 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: often engage in non suicidal self injury. But essentially what 609 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 1: it is is self cutting, UM, punching a wall like 610 00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of times. UM. What you're what they've frequently 611 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: thought was that they they're these people are overcome with 612 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: emotions and the only way to release that tension from 613 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: that emotion is to cut themselves or punch that wall. 614 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: And more recent research has found that actually they think 615 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: that what they're what they've stumbled upon is this kind 616 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: of innate mechanism humans have where when you experience a 617 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: painful stimulus, when it subsides, you don't just go back 618 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: to how you felt right before the painful stimulus, You 619 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 1: actually have a bit of a sense of euphoria, and 620 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: that they're actually doing they're actually going for that sense 621 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: of relief in euphoria by cutting themselves or by punching 622 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: the wall or whatever self injurious behavior. They're engaged and 623 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: that that's really what's behind it. But that what differentiates 624 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: them from people who um don't engage in that behavior 625 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: that they feel like they deserve it, they deserve punishment, 626 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: or they're defective, there's something wrong with them. So that's 627 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: why they respond in that manner where they hurt themselves 628 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: to kind of cope, rather than say turning to food 629 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, it's just devastating, And that's that sense 630 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: of self that it seems like we just keep going 631 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,919 Speaker 1: back to when it comes to this emotional pain. It's 632 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: something is wrong with me, and maybe I deserve this. 633 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: It's just I've never had these kind of feelings, and 634 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 1: I just my heart breaks to think about someone walking 635 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: around feeling this way. You know. UM, rejection sensitive dysphoria 636 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: is something that I had never heard of, because it 637 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: seems like it's really sort of on the leading edge 638 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: of what's being studied. Now that's that. In fact, that 639 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: phrase rejection sensitive dysphoria isn't even part of the medical community. Um, 640 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: Like they haven't even UM. I guess what would you 641 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: call that? Well, the medical community a lot of it, 642 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: except that it's it exists, but it's not in the 643 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: d s M. So it's technically not an actual diagnosis. 644 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: Is that what it is? Yeah, that's my understanding, all right, 645 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: And this is UM and this, you know, obviously go 646 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: along with some other neurodivergences, other mood disorders. Like we said, 647 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: a lot of these are sort of criss cross each other, 648 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: but they might experience mental pain or discomfort and feel, 649 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,359 Speaker 1: you know, this rejection that we keep talking about. And 650 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: the other thing that really stood out to me or 651 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:24,720 Speaker 1: interpret like something ambiguous as rejection, right, so when they're 652 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 1: when they're rejected. When you feel rejected and you have 653 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: rs D, you have a full body sense of being 654 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: overwhelmed by the emotions that you feel. Nobody likes to 655 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: be rejected. Now take that feeling of being rejected and 656 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: amplify it a million times so that it completely saturates 657 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 1: every fiber in your being, and then make it so 658 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: that just about anything anyone says to you is a 659 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: form of rejection. Correcting you for something that you you 660 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: you misspoke about, UM, telling you that you're doing something wrong, 661 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: anything like like breaking plans with you because you have 662 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,359 Speaker 1: to take your ailing mother to the hospital. Like, all 663 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: of that is considered rejection, and all of it is 664 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:10,240 Speaker 1: met or responded to by this overwhelming flood of negative emotion. 665 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: UH suicide We've talked about UM kind of here and 666 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,479 Speaker 1: there throughout the episode. UM. Obviously that's a big risk 667 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: if you're suffering from depression and uh bp D. But 668 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: emotional pain, and again this is something that we want 669 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,720 Speaker 1: to draw distinction. Emotional pain is a real major factor 670 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: and it's not everyone, but many Many people who have 671 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 1: died by suicide or attempted suicide had reported previously that 672 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,280 Speaker 1: they it was a psychological pain that they were trying 673 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: to escape from or end. Right. One thing that I 674 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: hadn't thought about but makes total senses. There's some suicidal 675 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 1: ideation um and that that that can be a coping 676 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: mechanism for people who are UM risk at risk of 677 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: suicide UM, and that they're they're basically saying, like, I can, 678 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,439 Speaker 1: I can keep making it. It's not quite bad enough yet. 679 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: And I always have that out of taking my own 680 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: life if things get too bad, and that suicidal ideation, 681 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: and some people just use that to get by um 682 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 1: and get through emotional pain, to just remind themselves that, 683 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's not that bad yet. Right. Well, I 684 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: had not heard of that, but I mean I get 685 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: I get the basis of it. It's very very saddening, 686 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: but I get the strange logic behind it, you know, 687 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: yeah for sure. Um. All right, So we would love 688 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 1: to end on a bit more of a positive note, 689 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 1: which is there are treatments for these things. Uh. Like 690 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: we mentioned it, it is an evolutionary signal when you're 691 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 1: feeling emotional pain too uh to do something about it. 692 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,759 Speaker 1: It is your body saying, hey, this is uh not 693 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: just this is no way to live. But like, this 694 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: is dangerous for you, and you need to take care 695 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: of yourself and self soothe and do all those things, 696 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: but also seek treatment. And there are quite a few 697 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,439 Speaker 1: treatments that are that are out there for you. Right. Yeah, 698 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 1: there's cognitive behavioral therapy, which basically says, you, Um, we 699 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: don't know why you're feeling the way you're feeling. Who knows, 700 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: We might never uncover it. The point of what we're 701 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: trying to do is to teach you how to live 702 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 1: a better life with being saddled with these negative emotions, 703 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: learn to deal with them better, learn to think of 704 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: them as less powerful than they are. And CBT has 705 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: been around for a while and it is probably the 706 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: most successful, UM psycho psychological therapy there is, and it's 707 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: kind of given birth to some subsets of it, and 708 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,280 Speaker 1: a couple of them are really specifically geared towards treating 709 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 1: emotional pain. Once called dialectical behavioral therapy, it's been around 710 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: since the seventies. A psychologist named Marcia Linahan UM came 711 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: up with it. Yeah, this one's interesting, UM, And they 712 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: say that this is one of the best treatments if 713 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: you suffer from borderline personality disorder to undergo and uh, 714 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,280 Speaker 1: if you everyone experiences emotional pain, but if you experience 715 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: these things really, really really intensely, then this, uh DBT 716 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:18,399 Speaker 1: might be for you. It's called dialectical because, um, it's 717 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: about sort of accepting your behaviors, accepting your situation that 718 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: you're in, but trying to change them. So the acceptance 719 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: part is a big is a big piece to DBT 720 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:35,439 Speaker 1: as well as a c T Acceptance and commitment therapy. Right. Yeah, 721 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: Dialectical means like things that are concepts that are in 722 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: logical opposition to one another. And then this one makes 723 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: a lot of sense. I thought it was pretty cool. Um. 724 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,319 Speaker 1: They Also one of the big things about DBT is 725 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: there's group therapy and you practice your skills in it, 726 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: so you're like, watch this emotional regulation everybody, you know. 727 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure what the groups are like, but 728 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: I saw that it was more akin to a classrooms 729 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: setting than a group therapy setting. There's also acceptance and 730 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: commitment therapy. It has a lot of the same ideas 731 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:12,399 Speaker 1: behind it. Basically that you need to um accept that 732 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: you feel emotional pain and and kind of move on 733 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: without and move on with it make make make the 734 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: best of your life using mindfulness techniques typically, and both 735 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: of those things they center on the idea of, um, 736 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: you have emotional pain, there's not a lot you like, 737 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,359 Speaker 1: you're never going to free yourself from emotional pain. So 738 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,400 Speaker 1: let's teach you, the person, how to deal with emotional 739 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: pain better. And that makes a lot of sense, and 740 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: it actually is effective for a lot of people. But 741 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 1: there's also another school of thought that says, like they're 742 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 1: those things are wrong because they're coming from a premise 743 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: that you have emotional pain, you just have to accept 744 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 1: it and deal with it. There's a guy named um 745 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: Mark Rigo. He's a psychiatrist at Yale, and he's on 746 00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,359 Speaker 1: the other side and says, we need to figure how 747 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: to treat emotional pain. You're not gonna get any great 748 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: signals or any great understanding from your emotional pain. We 749 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,399 Speaker 1: need to get rid of it however we can, um. 750 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 1: And that's a kind of controversial because people are like, well, 751 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: you're pathologizing maybe emotional pain that everybody has, and he's saying, 752 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: not necessarily, some people have way more acute or way 753 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: more chronic emotional pain that's actually debilitating and rather than them, 754 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,439 Speaker 1: you know, going to group and practicing their skills. Let's 755 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: figure out some medications to help them get back on 756 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,320 Speaker 1: their feet, and then they can go to like CBT 757 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,040 Speaker 1: or DBT or a c T H and work it out. 758 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 1: But they're they're so far beyond that. We need to 759 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: bring them back to the place where that therapy can 760 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: actually help. Yeah, I mean, I guess if that helps you, 761 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 1: that's great. I think I identify a little more with 762 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,759 Speaker 1: the um the previous ones we were talking about, the 763 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: acceptance because it kind of ties into the whole I 764 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,719 Speaker 1: am not my behaviors line of thought, Um, like I 765 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 1: can be this and also be something else totally, which 766 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: is I think could be very empowering. I mean, I've 767 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,400 Speaker 1: learned a tremendous amount for my therapy and it's essentially 768 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 1: geared towards that of like you said, I'm not my behaviors, 769 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 1: I'm not my thoughts, are not my feelings, like I 770 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,080 Speaker 1: am the kind of the sum total of all of 771 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,920 Speaker 1: those things. And also just um, you know, learning not 772 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,680 Speaker 1: to be such a negative nelly. Same here, my friend, 773 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: you got anything else? I got nothing else? All right? Well, 774 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,279 Speaker 1: if you want to know more about emotional pain, sit 775 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: back and wait because it'll come sooner or later. And 776 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: since I said that, it's time for listener mail. Oh no, no, 777 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 1: it's time for listener phone call. What first ever um 778 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 1: our old or old pal? John Hodgman, friend of the 779 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: show and friend of ours in real life, ye called 780 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,720 Speaker 1: me as he still listens to our show some really yeah, 781 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: which made me feel really good. I doubt if he 782 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 1: listens to him all. He probably sturfs through and skips 783 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 1: around and listens to what might appeal to him. But he, uh, 784 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 1: he listened to the episode on the word and phrase origins, 785 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: which you know, John of course is in talented orator 786 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,719 Speaker 1: and wordsmiths, so it's not surprising that when jumped out 787 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,359 Speaker 1: at him. But he called because he wanted to talk 788 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: about the peu remember when something stinks, And he said, 789 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: I think that might have come about And it made 790 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,720 Speaker 1: sense to me when because that's sort of the sound 791 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: you make when you spit something out that might be 792 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 1: bad for you. So like evolutionarily, if you put something 793 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,279 Speaker 1: in your mouth, it's like super bitter, which evolutionary and 794 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,239 Speaker 1: speaking means it could be poisonous. You go to you know, 795 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,520 Speaker 1: like like spit something out and he thinks, p you 796 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: may have evolved from that. I saw other places that 797 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: it's kind of a nuanced version of the where like 798 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: when you get smacked in the face by a disgusting smell, 799 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,759 Speaker 1: Like the exclamation you make involuntarily is like pure kind 800 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 1: of that kind of thing. It makes sense and just 801 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,839 Speaker 1: something I think you'll enjoy. I've been holding out on 802 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: this to tell you, he said. And by the way, 803 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,560 Speaker 1: he said, did I ever tell you, Chuck that for 804 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: the first couple of years I listened to the show 805 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:28,959 Speaker 1: before I knew you guys, I thought you had a ponytail. Oh, 806 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: that just tickled me. I would pay good money to 807 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: see you with a ponytail. Yeah, I thought that was 808 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 1: good stuff. This Halloween's coming up, Chuck, you never so 809 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,719 Speaker 1: thanks to Hodgi. Good good guy, good friend. Yeah, great guy. 810 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,919 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Hodgi for the first ever listener phone call. 811 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: And if you want to be like Hodgman, see if 812 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: you can find Chuck's phone number and give him a call. Uh. 813 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:56,800 Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can also send us an email 814 00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:03,880 Speaker 1: to Stuff Podcast at i heeart radio dot com. Stuff 815 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 1: you Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio. 816 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,919 Speaker 1: For more podcasts, my heart Radio, visit the I heart 817 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,880 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 818 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,520 Speaker 1: favorite shows. H