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Speaker 1: George Santos, disgraced former congressional representative and professional scammer, was

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Speaker 1: voted out of Congress, and rather than slinking into the shadows,

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Speaker 1: he's doing sit down interviews and allegedly making bank on cameo.

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Speaker 1: Now if you believe him, he says that he's already

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Speaker 1: made more money since being kicked out of Congress than

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Speaker 1: he ever would have as an elected official. When asked

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Speaker 1: during an interview by ze Way what it would take

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Speaker 1: for him to just go away, he said, stop inviting

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Speaker 1: me to events, But you'll never do that because you

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Speaker 1: want the content. And honestly, he's kind of right. So

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Speaker 1: does crime pay? That's the question that Rachel Delusche Williams

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Speaker 1: asked when we sat down together last year. Rachel was

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Speaker 1: scammed at of thousands of dollars by notorious fake German

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Speaker 1: Heiress and Adelby, and she asks, are we incentivizing scamming

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Speaker 1: as a culture. Listen to our episode from twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: two and find.

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Speaker 2: Out she definitely committed so many offenses that harmed your

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Speaker 2: life people. So I think to flattened something like that

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Speaker 2: into this like very frivolous, like fun, glossy slog of

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Speaker 2: a TV show We'll Stop by do Dot.

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. We spend

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Speaker 1: a lot of time on the show talking about lies

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Speaker 1: and the Internet, and I have to say that part

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Speaker 1: of the reason why I personally work on disinformation issues

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Speaker 1: is because of my intense fascination in things that are

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Speaker 1: not true. How do lies function, why do we believe them?

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Speaker 1: Who profits off of them? And how do they shape

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Speaker 1: our world? So in twenty eighteen, when the story first

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Speaker 1: broke about the fake German heiress Anna Delby, I was

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Speaker 1: of course fascinated. Anna real name Anna Sorokan, had been

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Speaker 1: scamming investors, hotels, even her own friends in pursuit of

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Speaker 1: opening an art foundation and private club called the Anna

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Speaker 1: Delvey Foundation. The club, like the millions of dollars of

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Speaker 1: family money that Anna said that she was supposedly worth,

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Speaker 1: never materialized. Anna's former friend Rachel Delutch Williams, first introduced

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Speaker 1: the world to Anna after she wrote about their disastrous

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Speaker 1: trip to Marrakesh. Anna initially agreed to pay for the trip,

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Speaker 1: but never managed to put down a working credit card

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Speaker 1: at the pricey villa where they were staying. When hotel

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Speaker 1: staff insisted that somebody put down a functioning credit card,

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Speaker 1: Rachel was pressured into putting the cost of the entire

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Speaker 1: trip sixty two thousand dollars, more than a year of

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Speaker 1: her salary, on her work and personal credit cards. Now,

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Speaker 1: Anna assured her that she would wire her the money

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Speaker 1: to pay her back, but she never did. In the end,

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Speaker 1: Rachel helped lead police to Anna's whereabouts, which led to

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Speaker 1: Anna's arrest and conviction for one count of attempt at

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Speaker 1: grand larceny, three counts of grand larceny, and four counts

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Speaker 1: of theft of services related to her various scams, but

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Speaker 1: she was found not guilty of the sixty two thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars Rachel was out for the trip. Last month, Netflix

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Speaker 1: released Inventing Anna, a fictionalized, very sympathetic retelling of her

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Speaker 1: Cohn based on the reporting of Jessica Presler at New

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Speaker 1: York Magazine. Anna's crimes were so flashy and outlandish it

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Speaker 1: was hard not to pay attention, and that, Rachel says,

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Speaker 1: is kind of part of the scam. In her book,

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Speaker 1: My Friend Anna, Rachel writes, I have come to understand

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Speaker 1: that your attention is an investment. Giving someone your attention

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Speaker 1: is the act of being influenced, whether or not you're

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Speaker 1: aware of it in the moment, and especially in this

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Speaker 1: age of constant simulation, with endless people and stories competing

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Speaker 1: for your clicks, likes, follows, and time. Your attention is valued.

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Speaker 1: It has power, It's worth something. It can even put

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Speaker 1: money in someone's pocket. Be careful where you spend it

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Speaker 1: and understand the cost. I spoke to Rachel about why

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Speaker 1: our current digital media landscape is presenting a golden age

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Speaker 1: for scammers and what that means for all of us.

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Speaker 1: And this one quick note. We were recording on a

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Speaker 1: noisy day in Brooklyn, so the audio quality might not

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Speaker 1: be what you're used to from this podcast. Why do

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Speaker 1: you think this is? Why do you think we're in

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Speaker 1: this era where people cannot get enough of people who

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Speaker 1: lie and scam and steal and sheet others.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question, and I've certainly asked myself

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Speaker 2: the same one. But I think I have a kind

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Speaker 2: of unique vantage point in that I lived through like

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Speaker 2: a con firsthand, and I know that's sort of how

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Speaker 2: it works. It's sort of this larger than life, flashy illusion,

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Speaker 2: like a magic trick that is meant to grab your

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Speaker 2: attention so that while you're busy sort of puzzling over it,

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Speaker 2: you know, whatever sort of business is going on behind

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Speaker 2: the scenes can can happen without too much or analysis,

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Speaker 2: I suppose. So it's I think it there's a fascination

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Speaker 2: with with you know, tricksters and with like it is

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Speaker 2: in many ways like like watching a magician at work,

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Speaker 2: and so that people want to want to watch as

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Speaker 2: like a voyeur to understand where this slight of hand occurred,

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Speaker 2: how someone fell for it, and and you know, especially

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Speaker 2: in this age where it is kind of hard with

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Speaker 2: with the Internet and with all of these different media

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Speaker 2: forms coming at us to discern between fact and fiction.

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Speaker 2: To get to watch something in an arena that seems

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Speaker 2: pretty low stakes because it's built as entertainment. I think

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Speaker 2: it's people enjoy maybe like they don't think about it

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Speaker 2: that hard, but they enjoy getting to see something that

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Speaker 2: that straddles that divide on purpose.

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Speaker 1: In talking about the Netflix show Inventing Anna you talk,

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Speaker 1: you write really compellingly about this that one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why the show is kind of dangerous is that

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Speaker 1: it does sort of aim to straddle that line, and

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Speaker 1: each episode starts with this is a completely true story

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Speaker 1: except for the things that are fictionalized, and I think

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Speaker 1: as a viewer you might not really know that, You're like,

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Speaker 1: it can be used as a way to heavily deeply

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Speaker 1: fictionalize something that actually people actually experience, and I think

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Speaker 1: that could the purposeful straddling of that line of facts

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Speaker 1: and fiction and kind of blending them can be a

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Speaker 1: little bit dangerous because the ftikes do feel low. It

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Speaker 1: just feels like entertainment exactly.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you've said it in some ways better than

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Speaker 2: I can say it myself, But that's exactly right, and

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Speaker 2: it's kind of disheartening. I mean, I appreciate that, like

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Speaker 2: you're speaking of about this too, and other people you

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Speaker 2: know are certainly paying attention now. But I think part

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Speaker 2: of the reason I chose to continue talking about this,

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Speaker 2: which you know, the story which is well and truly

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Speaker 2: behind me and I would love to like move on

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Speaker 2: from and not be discussing today. But the reason I'm

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Speaker 2: speaking up is because I see something happening that sets

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Speaker 2: a precedent that I do think is chruck that I

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Speaker 2: do think is dangerous, and I do think it requires

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Speaker 2: viewers to ask questions, probably more so than we can

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Speaker 2: expect a media company who profits from it to do.

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Speaker 2: But the Netflix show Inventing Anna does do this thing

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Speaker 2: where it like sticks that label up as a disclaimer,

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Speaker 2: but it blends, you know, factual information with things that

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Speaker 2: are completely made up, as it says it does. But

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Speaker 2: it makes viewers go online, look things up, see that

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Speaker 2: some things are true, and then that creates this like

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Speaker 2: foundation of credibility that allows them to think, well that

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Speaker 2: this is true. I believe the narrative that they wove

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Speaker 2: in with you know, this big big budget production and

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Speaker 2: all those like whistles and bells and like how compelling

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Speaker 2: is that. You know, storytelling is really powerful, and I

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Speaker 2: think that's why it requires a level of responsibility. I

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Speaker 2: think people are apt to believe things that they watch

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Speaker 2: in stories or that they connect to in terms of

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Speaker 2: a narrative more than sometimes dry facts that they hear

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Speaker 2: on the news.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you describe this in your book and

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Speaker 1: talking about the way that Anna's crimes have been glamorized,

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Speaker 1: in part by places like Netflix, that you see it

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Speaker 1: as a big picture problem is that sort of what

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Speaker 1: you were referring to, Like, that's sort of the big

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Speaker 1: picture problem that you're describing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that I think specifically, I have become very mindful

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Speaker 2: of the ways that our attention can be commodified. So

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Speaker 2: when Anna was released from prison the first time before

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Speaker 2: she was detained by ICE, I was asked to do

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Speaker 2: a bunch of media appearances commenting on her release, and

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Speaker 2: I declined because I was like, why, you know, why

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Speaker 2: would I do that. I've already written the book, it's out,

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Speaker 2: I've moved on. I have no interest in sort of

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Speaker 2: coming out and speaking or hypothesizing about what somebody may

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Speaker 2: or may not do after jail, like she's cheated her time.

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Speaker 2: Like all we can do is like hope that, you know,

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Speaker 2: God's speed, like hope doesn't happen again. But while I

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Speaker 2: was declining things, I saw that she was being given

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Speaker 2: various media place platforms, and that would be fine if

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Speaker 2: she had something productive to say, But it felt as

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Speaker 2: though these different outlets were just giving your space to

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Speaker 2: rationalize her behavior, to continue peddling belief in this, you know,

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Speaker 2: and fictional in my mind, like this fictional intention, you know,

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Speaker 2: like I was really going to do it. I didn't

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Speaker 2: mean to never pay someone back like all of these

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Speaker 2: things that I believed for far too long, and that

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Speaker 2: she's now getting to sell to a broader audience. So

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Speaker 2: as I was watching that, what I realized is our

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Speaker 2: attention to her, our attention to people like this, our

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Speaker 2: attention to things is what gives them influence and power.

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Speaker 2: So when I say it's a big picture problem, I

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Speaker 2: think what I'm really referring to is the attention economy

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Speaker 2: and the way that we think we're watching something just

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Speaker 2: without stakes, but our viewership in itself is actually something

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Speaker 2: that it does have a monetary value and also a

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Speaker 2: value in terms of our own behavior, our beliefs, and

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Speaker 2: how how we moved through the world.

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Speaker 1: You write about how Anna will be given these like

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Speaker 1: very convivial interviews where it's clearly the interviewer was like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: this Anna Delby, like can you believe it? And they

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Speaker 1: would have these buzzy headlines, and I guess part of

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Speaker 1: me is like, like, how can you print the words

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Speaker 1: of somebody who lies? If you're a journalist or a reporter,

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Speaker 1: Like somebody asked like, oh, you could try to talk

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Speaker 1: to Anna for this interview, And I was like, why

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Speaker 1: would I why would I want to talk to somebody

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Speaker 1: who lies?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think there's a way to do it.

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Speaker 2: There's actually a sixty minutes to Australia interview was I

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Speaker 2: thought it was. I mean, it's of course still kind

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Speaker 2: of sensationalized around the edges, but at least the viewer

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Speaker 2: had a very firm like framing device in which he

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Speaker 2: you know, it's It's the same way I think the

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Speaker 2: most successful interviews with someone like Donald Trump were where

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Speaker 2: you have a baseline foundation of truth fiction. You know,

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Speaker 2: some some degree of commonly shared right wrong when it

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Speaker 2: comes to like ethics or reality, and you actually try

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Speaker 2: to hold someone to account. That's interesting. And then I

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Speaker 2: think it's actually like journalism, But I think what I

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Speaker 2: do find puzzling or I understand it, but I think

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Speaker 2: I find it, you know, problematic is the way that

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Speaker 2: so much of our media and our news sources today

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Speaker 2: are driven by not by quality but traffic. So so

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Speaker 2: so places are incentivized to come up with these clickbait headlines,

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Speaker 2: with these really sensationalized recaps of you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: events that in real life were interesting, but you know,

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Speaker 2: are so much more interesting if you embellish these details.

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Speaker 2: And it was troubling for me because watching like even

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Speaker 2: during the Child the Why, people were reporting on what

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Speaker 2: she was wearing or like you know, ah, she's so audacious,

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Speaker 2: can you believe? Like, like, yeah, she is, That's what

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Speaker 2: ye know. That's what drew me into the friendship. Friendship too,

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Speaker 2: here's this person you can't quite figure out, Like she's

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Speaker 2: she's wacky, she's really confident. She's doing these these things

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Speaker 2: that kind of break your brain and make you sit

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Speaker 2: there and stare and kind of ask questions. But that's

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Speaker 2: how it works. Like while we're doing that, like no

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Speaker 2: one's asking where's the money coming from? Like who's are

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Speaker 2: the what's the impact of this person's behavior and mind?

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Speaker 2: Does it matter?

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Speaker 1: According to BBC News, which filed a Freedom of Information

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Speaker 1: Act request, Netflix reportedly started paying Anna before she had

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Speaker 1: ever even gone to trial. They paid thirty thousand dollars,

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Speaker 1: which went toward paying her lawyer. Then Netflix paid for

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Speaker 1: the rights to adapt Anna's story into the show Inventing Anna.

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Speaker 1: In total, Netflix reportedly paid Anna three hundred and twenty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Now that money was initially frozen to give

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Speaker 1: her victims a chance to sue, and even though some

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Speaker 1: of her victims did file claims for a portion of

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Speaker 1: those funds, whatever has left over that didn't go to

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Speaker 1: paying the lawyers just goes right to Anna. And what

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Speaker 1: did Anna spend that money on? Designer clothing? You've written

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Speaker 1: about the fact that Netflix paid Anna, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of one of those things where she

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Speaker 1: used the money to pay legal fees. However, I would

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Speaker 1: argue that it's not like it's not like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're her legal fees, and so if somebody gives me

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Speaker 1: money and I'm like, oh, I use that money to

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Speaker 1: pay my bills, I feel like it's a bit of

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Speaker 1: a stretch to say that I Am not benefiting from that.

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Speaker 1: But whatever. Do you feel that Netflix is contributing to

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Speaker 1: an ecosystem where lying and scamming can be financially rewarding

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Speaker 1: and financially lucrative.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, this is like very cut and

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Speaker 2: gi evidence of that because they moved so quickly to

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Speaker 2: option the story that it they ended up paying Anna

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Speaker 2: before her case even went to trial, before she even

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Speaker 2: went to trial, and that's the money that was used

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Speaker 2: initially to pay her criminal the criminal defense layer, whom

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Speaker 2: she chose to pay his his like a initial fees,

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Speaker 2: and then beyond that they they started their writer's room.

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Speaker 2: The day that the trial began, there were Netflix writers

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Speaker 2: in the courtroom. Her lawyer was representing her and her

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Speaker 2: entertainment dealings at the same time he was representing her

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Speaker 2: in a criminal trial. And I knew that at the time,

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Speaker 2: which is part of why I think I went into

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Speaker 2: it feeling. I mean, of course, I was also so raw,

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Speaker 2: and I was all so fresh, and I was so

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Speaker 2: emotional way more, you know, I wish I had I

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Speaker 2: had had like a little more distance from everything or

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Speaker 2: a little more composure, but I just felt, frankly, so

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Speaker 2: gaslighted by the fact that I was being accused of

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Speaker 2: using my testimony as content for entertainment quote unquote, because

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Speaker 2: I was writing a book while at the same time

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Speaker 2: I knew that everybody there was doing that, and I

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Speaker 2: actually wasn't, like, you know, I was left sixty thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars in debt, like I was just finding a way

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Speaker 2: to like heal, to understand, to move forward. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was really taxi terraviy, and I do think Netflix

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Speaker 2: certainly not only influenced the criminal justice proceedings, but also

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Speaker 2: gave this person who you know, we can all think

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Speaker 2: what we want to think. But looking on paper at

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Speaker 2: her past actions, she is a convicted criminal and they

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Speaker 2: have created for her a glamorized version of her crimes,

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Speaker 2: given her a platform, given her an audience, and set

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Speaker 2: her up with a viewership that she can now continue

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Speaker 2: to monopolize like she will continue to make money on

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Speaker 2: the notoriety that she achieved through committing criminal acts.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break at her back. Scammers are

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Speaker 1: not a new phenomena. They've always existed, but in the

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Speaker 1: age of streaming services and social media, it seems like

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Speaker 1: we're living in a golden age for scammers, where if

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Speaker 1: your scam is flashy enough and captures our attention in

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Speaker 1: just the right kind of way, what might have started

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Speaker 1: as a scam can be laundered into a more legitimate platform.

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Speaker 1: For instance, Netflix is The Tinder Swindler, a documentary that

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Speaker 1: chronicles Simon Levev, who posed as a wealthy jet set

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Speaker 1: playboy by duping women that he met on the dating

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Speaker 1: app Tender out of thousands of dollars. Levev's cohn involved

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Speaker 1: convincing women to loan hymn money throughout landish lives, and

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Speaker 1: since the documentary, Levev is clearly trying to parlay the

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Speaker 1: attention and notoriety from his Cohn into a pathway of

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Speaker 1: a more legitimate, not to mention, lucrative platform. So, as

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Speaker 1: Anna wants intimated to a BBC reporter, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: hard to say that crime doesn't pay, because it seems

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Speaker 1: like in our current media landscape it kind of does.

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Speaker 1: I think that we live in a climate where people

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Speaker 1: who scam and live people like like she was, as

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Speaker 1: you said, she was convicted of this. It's not like

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Speaker 1: it's some big secrets. It's not like it's you.

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Speaker 2: Saying this is exactly.

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Speaker 1: These are just the facts of what happened. I feel

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Speaker 1: like we are allowing pathways to legitimize these people, and like,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe it started as a con and it

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Speaker 1: started as a scam. By the end of it, you'll

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Speaker 1: have money and an audience and people who are interested

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Speaker 1: to see what happens next, and that you can sort

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Speaker 1: of legitimize that. Like, for instance, if you watch the

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Speaker 1: Netflix documentary The Tender Swindler, the scammer in that case,

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Speaker 1: Simone Simon Simon something like that, Yeah, you know, we

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Speaker 1: got this big bump in social media followers. And also

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Speaker 1: is making pretty good money on cameo right now, he's

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Speaker 1: charging three hundred dollars for a personal shout out and

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Speaker 1: fourteen hundred dollars for business shout out. He has a manager,

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Speaker 1: He's talked about wanting to do a podcast. You know,

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Speaker 1: are are we creating?

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Speaker 2: Ore?

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Speaker 1: Is the media creating pathways for folks to legitimize what

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Speaker 1: started out as a scam or a con or a lie.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think, you know, looking back, it's actually

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Speaker 2: a really interesting book about this called The Attention Merchants

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Speaker 2: by this this man called Tim Wu. With the rise

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Speaker 2: of reality television in this model of normal person to

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Speaker 2: celebrity as like a model for business, and then it

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Speaker 2: evolved into social media where people not you know, they

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Speaker 2: could It wasn't like winning the lottery. Everybody too could

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Speaker 2: do this if they found a way to brand themselves,

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Speaker 2: to market themselves that was compelling enough to attract attention.

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Speaker 2: But as we've just realized, unless you have some kind

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Speaker 2: of outlandish loud stick or personality, like, no one is

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Speaker 2: really paying attention. And I think this is like now

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Speaker 2: evolved into curation, not just through digital media, but here

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Speaker 2: are these people, and these people have always existed, mind you,

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Speaker 2: but we live in and age where that kind of

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Speaker 2: behavior is really rewarded. You know, it's not an age

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Speaker 2: where it's about you know, morality or like like which

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Speaker 2: which sounds so like pollyannish and hokey, but it's very

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Speaker 2: much about this sort of the cult of personality and

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Speaker 2: who would chect our attention and like obviously who we

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Speaker 2: you know, voted our president is a testament to that.

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Speaker 1: What you just articulated is one of my biggest issues

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Speaker 1: in making the show is the way that we have

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Speaker 1: our entire digital ecosystem and media ecosystem is biased toward

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Speaker 1: outrageousness and lies and scams. It's been a documented thing

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Speaker 1: that on social media, incorrect information travels much faster and

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Speaker 1: much farther than accurate information.

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Speaker 2: There's us saying like a lie can travel around the

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Speaker 2: world while the truth is still putting on its shoes

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Speaker 2: or some variation of that. But it's very true, absolutely true.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, we talk a lot on this

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Speaker 1: podcast about the way that our landscapes have become this

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Speaker 1: like marketplace for extremism and who's really losing is us

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Speaker 1: the general public.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a problem when the Weather channel is sensationalized,

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Speaker 2: like for the Weather channel to be like whoa like

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Speaker 2: you know, and giving these like hokey names to things

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Speaker 2: and like making everything seem like a doomsday event and

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Speaker 2: it's like it's like sprinkling outside, like there's no news here.

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Speaker 2: They rely on viewership the same way as any other

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Speaker 2: channel does. So like for our entire economy to run

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Speaker 2: based on like clicks or attention, like that is scary.

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Speaker 2: There there are certain things that I think probably would

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Speaker 2: we all might be a little better off if there

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Speaker 2: were other motivators.

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Speaker 1: We all deserve timely, thoughtful, accurate information. And so even

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Speaker 1: you know, your example of the Weather channel, if I

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Speaker 1: need to know whether or not to bring an umbrella,

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Speaker 1: and I turn on the weather and it's like you know,

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Speaker 1: monsoons and hurricanes and oh my god, and it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm being underserved because I don't know if I need

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Speaker 1: to bring an umbrella, but I'm going down the street,

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Speaker 1: you know. And so we all we all lose out.

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Speaker 1: We all lose when we don't when we have any

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Speaker 1: kind of media ecosystem that is biased towards sensationalism or

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Speaker 1: lies or scams or clicks and outrageousness rather than thoughtful, accurate,

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Speaker 1: nuanced content, and.

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Speaker 2: It pushes us to the extremes of either total belief

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Speaker 2: or complete disbelief, because either you buy into whatever you know,

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Speaker 2: cool age you're looking for, like whether that's Fox News

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Speaker 2: or you know some like extreme version of like CNN.

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Speaker 2: Like you know, they all have their biased reporting techniques, right,

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Speaker 2: but like I think you either sort of hop on

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Speaker 2: a bandwagon or you say none of it's objective. I

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Speaker 2: don't believe anything, and then that's not great either, because

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Speaker 2: there are still things that should be believed. So I

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Speaker 2: do agree that it is a disservice to everybody because

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Speaker 2: it creates a system in which it's really hard to

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Speaker 2: tell truth from fiction.

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Speaker 1: In my data that they do a lot of work

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Speaker 1: combating conspiracy theories and things like that and trying to

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Speaker 1: kind of understand why people fall prey to them, and

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Speaker 1: a big part of it is just complete lack of

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Speaker 1: complete lack of trust in media institutions. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's a big reason why it's, like I can understand

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Speaker 1: why somebody would just lose all trust in media when

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Speaker 1: that is the thing that fuels it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And there is a lot of similarity obviously. I

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Speaker 2: mean the stakes are just sort of it's apples and

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Speaker 2: oranges with when it comes to like someone like Anna

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Speaker 2: and like masculine conspiracy theories. But there is similarity in

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Speaker 2: the way that both I guess, like lie structures or

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Speaker 2: manipulation techniques rely on framing arguments in a way that

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Speaker 2: makes them almost irrefutable because they they they speak to

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Speaker 2: these sort of like cryptic abstracts or things that you

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Speaker 2: literally just can't disprove even though they are false. It's

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Speaker 2: like a flaw, a flawed framing device. And I think

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Speaker 2: it's really hard for people, especially if you're isolated, to

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Speaker 2: keep your feet on the ground and understand what's happening

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Speaker 2: if you're not familiar with that type of behavioral pattern.

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Speaker 1: After the disastrous ship to Marrakesh, Rachel was left with

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Speaker 1: a sixty two thousand dollars credit card bill that her

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Speaker 1: credit card company eventually forgave, But before that, Rachel struggled

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Speaker 1: to pay rent and took loans from loved ones to

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Speaker 1: cover bills to get by. She eventually published her book

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Speaker 1: about what she learned from her relationship with Anna called

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Speaker 1: My Friend Anna, and sold the rights to develop her

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Speaker 1: story for television to Lena Donnom at HBO. Rachel takes

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Speaker 1: a lot of criticism for quote, profiting off of her

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Speaker 1: relationship to Anna. So I wanted to go back to

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Speaker 1: something that you mentioned, which is that you sometimes take

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Speaker 1: criticism for the fact that you published a book about

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Speaker 1: your experiences, You've written about your experiences. I interviewed Amanda Knox,

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Speaker 1: the EXONERI you probably know who she is, and something

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Speaker 1: that she said in that interview that I will never

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Speaker 1: forget is that, you know, she's often criticized for making money,

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Speaker 1: you know, writing books about what happened to her. And

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Speaker 1: you know, however, producers, filmmakers, writers, they make a lot

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Speaker 1: of money retelling sometimes like a really harmful, deeply fictionalized

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Speaker 1: account of something that like sort of happened around her.

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Speaker 1: But like it's always like deeply, deeply fictionalized. And something

433
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: that she said was that it's apparently everyone else is

434
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: allowed to profit off of something that happened to me

435
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: except for me. Everybody who's to make money off of

436
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 1: my story but me? And I guess, you know, why

437
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: do you think this is? You know, I guess I

438
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: should say a side note, which is that if I

439
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: lost a lot of money, anybody who wanted to pay

440
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: me to tell the story of what happened to me

441
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: to recoup my expenses, I would absolutely say yes, And

442
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: I think that most people would. But I feel that

443
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 1: we have this expectation where victims are kind of expected

444
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: to be kind of holier than now. Meanwhile, the people

445
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,959
Speaker 1: who harmed them like they can do whatever they can

446
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: make money. However, and so I think, like, why do

447
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: you think that is?

448
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 2: Where do think that comes from? I mean, first of all,

449
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 2: I do completely agree with you, it often feels like

450
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 2: the victims are on trial more so than the criminals. Uh.

451
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 2: And also like there's this odd thing that I've realized,

452
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: the word victim is has so much like packed into

453
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 2: the connotations around the word. The word It's like people think,

454
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: as soon as you're no longer in debt or as

455
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: soon as you've been made hold, no matter how hard

456
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: hard you have to work to actually become okay, you're

457
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 2: not a victim anymore. Like you're now you know, and

458
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: someone who's exploiting a situation. If you, you know, keep

459
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 2: moving forward, if you're seen to succeed, and it's like,

460
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: what is a victim? Like does a victim? What does

461
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 2: the victim look like. I've had so many people reach

462
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: out to me on social media to say, you don't

463
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: look like a victim, and I think that is such

464
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 2: a loaded odd thing to say to somebody, Like saying

465
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: that you were the victim of a crime is not

466
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: a request for pity. It's a request for acknowledgment of

467
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 2: a wrong that was committed. You know. It is not

468
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: like I'm still stuck in this like stalled state in perpetuity.

469
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 2: It's like, this happened and that's a fact. Doesn't matter

470
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 2: what you do afterwards to be okay, you know, to

471
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 2: repair the damage, to find a way out of it.

472
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: Like that is really not relevant. But I think there

473
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: there are a lot of things that are distracting, especially

474
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 2: when these stories get retold through the lens of media

475
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 2: or entertainment. People tend to fixate on the whistles and

476
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: bells and the flashy trips and the money, and they

477
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 2: hold that I think the jury did the same thing.

478
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: They sort of hold that lens up and say, well,

479
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 2: you know, looking at the net gain you were doing

480
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: this before, Anna, and now you're doing this, you came

481
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: out Okay, therefore, nope, the crime didn't happen. It's like, wait,

482
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 2: so you're saying I was too good at you know,

483
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 2: finding like writing tooth and nail to find a way forward,

484
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 2: like therefore it didn't happen, Like what, why do I

485
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: think it happens? I think it's really easy for people

486
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 2: to hold on to really simplified recaps of something that

487
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: was actually very complex and nuanced. And of course, looking back,

488
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: red flags look like this, like very tidy pattern. But

489
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 2: when you're living through something where you're dealing with a

490
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 2: master manipulator, you know there's time between these these things

491
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: that might have tipped you off to trouble ahead. There's

492
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 2: there's a there's an actual relationship between real life people,

493
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: and everything is much grayer than it appears in hindsight.

494
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny because I feel like a lot

495
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: of people I've seen and I saw, like I guess

496
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: this idea of you know, well, while that was happening,

497
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: she definitely wanted to go to Morocco where she definitely

498
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: wanted this, And it's like who gives a ship like it?

499
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: Just see it just seems so like picking apart. It

500
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: feels very victim blaming.

501
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: It's very very convenient, and and I think people want

502
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: to look for a reason to explain why something bad

503
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,479
Speaker 2: has happened to somebody, you know, especially if it is

504
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: not like you know, dead dead, like you know, when

505
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 2: it seems like someone's come out okay, then it's like, okay,

506
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 2: we all have, like Curt Blanche, to just sit here

507
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: and talk about why you deserved it. And you know,

508
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, like it's everybody wants

509
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: to be understood, Like it seems to be misunderstood, and

510
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: it seems to have things framed in a way that's

511
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: not true, especially when they're so personal and so many

512
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: people are forming opinions about you from so little information

513
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: and flawed information. But at the end of the day,

514
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: like everybody looks at a story like this, which you

515
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 2: know is not a news story. It's like tale as

516
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 2: old as time. It's just been in a modern uh

517
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: iteration of it. But you people look at it and

518
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: they project their understand like they come away with an

519
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 2: understanding of it based on their own life experiences. And

520
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: if it's important for people to think, if it looks

521
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: too good to be true, it probably is, or you know,

522
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: don't get sucked into materialism or like you know, everybody

523
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: looks at it and thinks these things. But I think

524
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: that's actually more telling of their own life experiences than

525
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 2: it is necessarily of mine. Like have I asked myself

526
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: those questions? Of course I have, Like if I hadn't,

527
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: I think, you know, it's really important to look at

528
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: That's why I wrote A wrote I guess to start,

529
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: and I wrote what turned into the book. But it

530
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: was so that I could frame, you know, piece together

531
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: this like narrative of experience that I lived through. Look

532
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: at it, try to like dig into it, understand what happened,

533
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: what to make of it, like why it happened, and

534
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: how to learn, heal and move forward.

535
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: Something that you said, You said, people want an explanation

536
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: for why this happened to you. I think what they're

537
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: actually looking for is an explanation for why this would

538
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: never happen to them. I think it's about.

539
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: Them, right, and I mean absolutely, as they don't even

540
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 2: know me, and and like there even if even if

541
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 2: someone didn't meet me through this experience, this is something

542
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: that happened, was a friendship. I knew her for a year.

543
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: We were close friends for about three months, three brief months. Like,

544
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: she never bought me clothes, she never bought me shoes,

545
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: she never bought like did I work out with her? Yes?

546
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: Did she pay for some dinners? Yes? Did she invite

547
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: me on this crazy vacation? One hundred percent? But to

548
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 2: say that anybody understands someone else's entire values like value

549
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: system and personality and character through like a few months

550
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 2: of what is a you know, thirty some odd year

551
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: life with so many more important and like I don't

552
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: know telling things but any it's just life is weird.

553
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: Huh, life is weird. I kind of say, I love

554
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: this is kind of a side note. I love your

555
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: perspective on this. I feel like if this happened to me,

556
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: I guess I guess. You know you were saying earlier

557
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: how people don't really see the work involved in getting

558
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: you to a place where you're like this is behind me.

559
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: I'm speaking about it now not because I want to

560
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: relitigate what happened, like the minutia of our relationship, but

561
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: because I want to ask these like thoughtful questions about

562
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: what it says about our culture and all of that

563
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: you think as someone who is like, you know, I

564
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: know we don't see that work, but where you are today,

565
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: it just seems like you're you. I really appreciate your

566
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: perspective of where you're at right now.

567
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: I really appreciate you like acknowledging or understanding that because

568
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 2: it's very hard. You know, like even I guess being

569
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: a photo producer is much the same way. It's like

570
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: if you're doing it while nobody pays attention to how

571
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: it happened or why it's happening in this way. But like,

572
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: I mean, it's irritating except that, like there's nothing I

573
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: can do. People who are want to be wrong or

574
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 2: it's going to be wrong. But like when people are like, oh,

575
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 2: you just want the spotlight or oh you just want attention,

576
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: it's like I've turned down so many more things than

577
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: I have said yes to, Like this is a spotlight

578
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: that I did not want. You know, I have done

579
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: the best I could with something that was very negative,

580
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: and I've done the best could to make it into

581
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 2: something positive, not just for myself, but ideally for others

582
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 2: who may have gone through the same thing, or to

583
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: prevent others from going through the same thing. But you

584
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: like think you're You're completely right. Like my very specific

585
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: and clear objective as to why I'm still talking today,

586
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: does it really is about the spotlight that I didn't want,

587
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: And I thought very hard about whether or not to

588
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: just sort of like lie low, not comment to the

589
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: Netflix thing came out. It just like not say anything

590
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: at all. But I recognize the value of attention, and

591
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: I recognize the fact that whether or not I choose

592
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: to engage with it, there would be this attention coming

593
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: my way. And it felt like there are so many

594
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: really important causes in the world that need attention. There's

595
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: so many important issues even relating to this specifically that

596
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: can't get people to pay attention to them. So I

597
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: really wanted to like yield the time towards asking questions

598
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: and then ideally, I mean like finding people like you

599
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: or or you know, finding a way to sort of

600
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: redirect the spotlight towards towards activation partners who can speak

601
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: to these issues in a thoughtful way and and make

602
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: people think a little harder or differently about something that

603
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: on the surface just seems so sort of frivolous.

604
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: Our attention has value, and it's also we only have

605
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: so much of it. And so when lies and outrageousness

606
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: are amplify to get our attention, what's not getting our attention?

607
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: What important is are just going overlooked because.

608
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 2: Exactly, and that's I think that's that's so right. It's like,

609
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: you know, do I watch bad TV? Of course I do.

610
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: Do I eat junk food, of course I do. Like

611
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: it's not to say don't do it, it's just to

612
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 2: be mindful that if that's all you do, like that

613
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 2: really will inform the health of your life. Like, like

614
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: you know, when you are paying attention to these things

615
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: that are designed to suck up your tension, that are

616
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 2: designed to make you want more of them, they're addicting.

617
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: You are not paying attention to something else. You are not,

618
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 2: you know, necessarily having the autonomy you may think you

619
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: have over the direction of your purpose.

620
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: I definitely know what you mean. More after a quick break,

621
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. So you can probably

622
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: tell that I did not really enjoy the Netflix show

623
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 1: Inventing Anna, And one of my biggest issues with it

624
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: is the way that it frames Anna's crimes with a

625
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: kind of girl bas's hustle mentality that she came to

626
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: this country as an immigrant with nothing, and that if

627
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: she did maybe do a little lying and scamming here

628
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 1: or there, it was only in pursuit of building something

629
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: that she truly believed in after all? Is that The

630
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: American Dream? Over on another scammer story, who Lose the Dropout,

631
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: which chronicles the story of Elizabeth Holmes, former CEO of Sarahos,

632
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: a blood testing company that turned out to be a

633
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: total scam, actually does a pretty good job of showing

634
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: how empty, not to mention, dangerous, it can be when

635
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: scamming and lying is rebranded as vision or leadership. One

636
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: of the questions I did have for you is that

637
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: the The Inventing Anna Show does this, but I've also

638
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: seen it kind of glimmers of it, and other scammers

639
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: and just sort of in media in general, this idea

640
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: of like scamming and lying kind of being rebranded as

641
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: hustling or trying to achieve the American Dream or worse,

642
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: girl bossing. You know, I get, I completely, like logistically

643
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: understand why that's how it's framed or why it's how

644
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: it's reframed, But it's such an easy narrative, but I,

645
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's kind of harmful to reframe

646
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 1: feeling from people and lying from people as hustling and

647
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: girl bossing and leadership. And I guess my question is like,

648
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts about that. Have you seen this

649
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: and what do you think about it?

650
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's lazy. I just I think it's lazy,

651
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: and I do think it does it It does do

652
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: damage to the reality. You know, it's so backwards to

653
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 2: attempt to make something about like classism, racism, sexism, and

654
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 2: then to frame it in a way that is promoting

655
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 2: someone who couldn't care less about those issues unless they're

656
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: serving their own agenda. Like that is such a disservice

657
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 2: to people who are actually working to real you know,

658
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: to explore and explore these issues and create positive change

659
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 2: in ways that are actually meaningful and substantive, especially in

660
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: the past I don't even know how many years, I

661
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 2: guess like ten years or so, maybe less, like these

662
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 2: these sort of catch all buzzwords like like feminism or

663
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 2: like it's greet there's a performative activism that that features

664
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 2: words that have become trendy and and like missions that

665
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: have become trendy, and I think shows like this have

666
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 2: kind of glommed on to that.

667
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: I told you I watched the finale of the show

668
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 1: on Piboloo, the dropout about Elizabeth Holmes and the Saraho

669
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: Scam Lady. There was a time in feminism where like

670
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: a woman, like a woman like making money that was feminism.

671
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: I do think there's a kind of it's sort of

672
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: a it's sort of like era feminism I'm not proud of,

673
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: where yeah, if you were just a woman who was

674
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: making like out for herself and making money, that was

675
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: seen as like a feminist win, and we didn't really

676
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: ask a lot of questions about are you harming people?

677
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: Are you you know, like like we didn't really ask

678
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 1: a lot of questions. And I think that I kind

679
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: of see this era kind of maybe coming to a close,

680
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: I hope, But I think that that era really all

681
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: out for women to be lauded as feminist icons for

682
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: doing things that actually hurt other people at their own expense.

683
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 2: I don't think the answer to chauvinism is a form

684
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: of feminism that mirrors the same thing, like that reverses

685
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: that that negative way of being. Like, I do think

686
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 2: sometimes pendulums swing too far before they kind of find

687
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 2: their middle, and it seems like that's what happened. It's like, well,

688
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: you did this for so long, therefore, like it's my

689
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: time to do it, and we should celebrate the fact

690
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 2: that I'm doing it. It's I think it's it's hard

691
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 2: sometimes to see that when you're in it, and when

692
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 2: it's a reaction rather than like like it's it's reactive

693
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 2: rather than proactive. Right, So it's it's like finding a

694
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: way to exist as a woman in reaction to to

695
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: what men have done wrong, rather than just finding a

696
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: way to exist as a woman. I don't have solutions,

697
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 2: but I see the friend as well, and I guess

698
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: one thing related to the who we showed. But I

699
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: think that show actually strikes me as I mean, obviously

700
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: what she did does not strike me as something that

701
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 2: was done well. But the show I thought did a

702
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 2: good job actually of dramatizing real life events because they

703
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 2: framed her in a way that felt very true to

704
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 2: the actual sequencing of what happened. Like I read Bad

705
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 2: Blood by John care You and it felt like it,

706
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 2: you know, it followed a fact pattern, and it framed

707
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 2: her not as someone that everybody was. I mean, you

708
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 2: saw how she was celebrated, but that was true to

709
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 2: the way that it happened in real life. It was

710
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 2: very true to the mixed reactions she received, And I

711
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 2: thought Amanda Seeping did an amazing job of not of

712
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: like gleefully sort of relishing like the shtick of the

713
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 2: con but just in framing this sort of very misguided,

714
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: probably like psychologically unhealthy person who like just kind of

715
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 2: lacked a certain like human ship that allowed her to

716
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 2: understand the importance of her decision making on real lives.

717
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 2: It just was such a foil for me when I

718
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: watched that versus what I'd seen and Inventing Anna, which

719
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 2: really just looked like something that had been made by

720
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 2: people who really bought into what Anna was selling.

721
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I so I am happy to hear

722
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: you say this. I felt the exact person of all

723
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,919
Speaker 1: Inventing Anna, all all of the issues that you brought

724
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: up with it, Yes, but also just like with a

725
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 1: slog to watch, like I wanted to watch it before

726
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: I talked to you, and literally my partner was like,

727
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 1: I feel like you've been watching this show for a decade,

728
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: and I was like, you and me both just wasn't

729
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 1: an enterhating show. And I guess having that having like

730
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: I felt the Dropout was different because it had empathy

731
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: for the people who were harmed, right Like you saw

732
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: these people who were you know, had cancer and we're

733
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: involved in these blood these blood trials. You know. It

734
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: had empathy for the whistleblowers who risked so much of

735
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: their of their selves to come forward. I felt like

736
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: it was a show that managed to demonstrate the kind

737
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: of seductive you know, cult a personality around a scammer

738
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: without falling prey to it, and inventing Annah was exactly

739
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: the opposite.

740
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: It was done, Yeah, it was done so thoughtfully. It

741
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 2: had such depth to it because yeah, of course there

742
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 2: were people who like popped on the bandwagon and celebrated

743
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 2: Harry Like. It was just the full range of people

744
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 2: who were made to read like real life people. You know.

745
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: I think Inventing Anna flattened everybody. And there's a way

746
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 2: that can be done in like a show like Gossip

747
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 2: Girl or a show that is meant to be and

748
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: in some ways I guess this is but meant to

749
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 2: be about materialism and superficiality. But to reduce something like this,

750
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: we're real, real crime were committed, real people's lives were impacted.

751
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 2: It wasn't just these like faceless things. There are people

752
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 2: who lose jobs. They're people who obviously are not obviously

753
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 2: if we're obvious, that wouldn't be a problem. But there

754
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 2: are people who weren't included in the Kirk you know,

755
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: the court case. She definitely committed so many offenses that

756
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 2: harmed your life people. So I think to flatten something

757
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 2: like that into this like very frivolous, like fun, glossy

758
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: slog of a TV show full stuff, I don't know,

759
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: do dot.

760
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's there were times where I was like,

761
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: are you meant to be rooting for Anna in the show?

762
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: And then the I think the richest part is at

763
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: the end, where the biggest crime the show seems to

764
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: suggest has been committed is the character that shares your

765
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,879
Speaker 1: same name. She's like like nep is, like you're a

766
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: bad friend, and it's like, well, Anna went to jail,

767
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: Like come on, I.

768
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 2: Know, I get, I mean, and people really believe all

769
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 2: that is fact, Like you were like she bankroll drew

770
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 2: you for two years, and like I know better than

771
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 2: to feed the trolls on the internet, Like it's not

772
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: my job to to like educate people about fact, like what,

773
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 2: like the truth is out there if anybody wants to

774
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: look for it. But like I didn't even know her

775
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 2: that long. She didn't have thing like but yeah, so

776
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 2: to have have it framed as though, like where's the loyalty,

777
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: It's like this is someone you know, we were not

778
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 2: best friends. I knew her for and also look what

779
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 2: she did. Look at the pattern of her behavior. At

780
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 2: what point, why are you suggesting people who are in

781
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 2: these like manipulative relationships, do they friendships or whatever like that,

782
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 2: that they are doing something wrong by choosing to leave

783
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 2: something that is so harmful. Like that's bizarre. That's like,

784
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 2: that's a very bizarre thing to say. Also, the show

785
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: rearranged it as though I had been reimbursed before the

786
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 2: trial and that I like kept the secret of my

787
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: involvement with her arrest, like like or kept out a

788
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 2: secret like didn't happen. I was protected to years after

789
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: Marrakesh after the trial concluded. I didn't keep my involvement

790
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 2: in this sting some kind of like grand secret. I

791
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 2: wasn't ashamed of it, but I wasn't that close with

792
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 2: like Naphra Casey, you know, I like them I don't.

793
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: I have nothing negative to say. It's like, fine, everybody

794
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 2: can look back and see things through their lenses and

795
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 2: that's you know, it is what it is. But we

796
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 2: weren't in touch. It's not like I owed people explanations.

797
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 2: I was out more than they made any They were

798
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: not left in any kind of like debt or like

799
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 2: there was no ongoing relationship there. So to suggest that

800
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 2: by not reaching out to say hello, like this is

801
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: what I have done, and like, it's like that's just weird,

802
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 2: does it? It doesn't make any sense.

803
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think people people understand the way these

804
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: relationships and acquaintanceships work in their own lives and it's like,

805
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: of course that would be like you wouldn't owe these

806
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: people anything or you wouldn't owe like you know, But

807
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: when it's someone else and that the minutia of those

808
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 1: relationships are like projected for everyone to pick apart, suddenly

809
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, why would she do this? Doesn't

810
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: she have loyalty? And it's like, well, calm down, think

811
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: about how this at go down if it was you, Like,

812
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: we all understand that in our own lives, but when

813
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: it's somebody else, I think it's like different.

814
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, evidently, and I understand people don't tune into shows

815
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 2: like this to really think very analytically. It's mostly about

816
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 2: just getting a good laugh at other people's expense, and

817
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: like I, you know, I do too. It's fine, Like

818
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 2: I'm not. I certainly can't like hate on people for

819
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 2: being human, like that's how this works. I just I

820
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 2: think that the frivolity of it does can feel something

821
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 2: that is a bigger picture problem, as I have said,

822
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 2: which is why I figure, if I'm stuck in this

823
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: this like dumpster fire anyway, I might as well shy

824
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 2: and like send up a smoke signal about you know,

825
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 2: red flags that I know a little too well from

826
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 2: firsthand experience.

827
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: Yes, speaking of your stain experience. One of the last

828
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: questions I have is, like, what has it just been

829
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: like for you, Rachel, the person going through this, getting

830
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: the social media's trolls, getting people who have maybe been

831
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: misled about what happened from the television show. What has

832
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: it been like to deal with that on online?

833
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's definitely not easy. But I'm

834
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:30,280
Speaker 2: mindful of the like I'm I'm mindful of my privilege

835
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: and my luck. Just to have like such supportive family

836
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: and friends, to have an awareness of exactly what it

837
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 2: is that is happening. You know, part of it I

838
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: learned the hard way, just through gaslighting with Anna to

839
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 2: begin with, and now through what I've learned in looking

840
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: back and what happened looking at like I guess, I mean,

841
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 2: writing the book helped me a lot, just in terms

842
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 2: of sort of looking at the pattern of behavior as

843
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 2: a pattern rather than like this. When you're in a

844
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 2: relationship like that, it's really hard to see anything as

845
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 2: black and white, because it's not. Life is gray. But

846
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 2: looking back, things seem so much clearer to me. So

847
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 2: I'm grateful to have had people who believe me, who

848
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 2: like like a platform to speak from, the opportunity to speak,

849
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 2: which all that is to say it's hard. But part

850
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 2: of the reason I'm speaking up about it is because

851
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 2: I think the structure of the Netflix show, or this

852
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 2: broader pattern that's happening, it does a disservice to people

853
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 2: who don't have that ability to understand what's happening to them,

854
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 2: who might not get to hear stories like this because

855
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,760
Speaker 2: people are ashamed or they're scared of the victim blaming,

856
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 2: which is completely fair. It's not it's I mean, it's

857
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: wild and it you know, I can have my feet

858
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 2: on the ground and my head on my shoulders, and

859
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 2: if I sit there and read that for longer than

860
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 2: maybe like ten minutes, like it, even if you know that,

861
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 2: you know it's actually not about you, doesn't feel good

862
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 2: to have that kind of energy coming Like I mean

863
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 2: that sounds so wo but like that kind of hostility

864
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: coming at you, Like it's like death by paper cuts.

865
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,439
Speaker 2: Like you can be the strongest rock in the water,

866
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 2: but like if it keeps running, like you're gonna get

867
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: worn down. So it's hard, but I recognize that it's harder,

868
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,919
Speaker 2: so much harder for so many other people, And uh yeah,

869
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 2: then I can be pretty nasty.

870
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: We've talked a lot about how the dangers that come

871
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 1: when we give out, when we willingly give our attention

872
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,919
Speaker 1: a way to liars and scammers and people who are

873
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: outrageous and extreme. Do you ever see a situation where

874
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: things like nuance, thoughtfulness, honest, accurate content will be amplified

875
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: over that kind of extremism and lies? Do you think

876
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: that we're this is just it forever or do you

877
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 1: see it? Do you see a change coming, I.

878
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: Mean, as evidenced bypass behavior. I am kind of a

879
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 2: willful optimists through and through, and that is just who

880
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 2: I am, so I always hope for that, you know,

881
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: I do think the damage done by what you just said,

882
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 2: like the pattern. What I'm trying to say is the

883
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 2: truth will out, And it's one thing to think the

884
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 2: pattern of celebrating these individuals does do harm. That is

885
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 2: and will be visible until there is a movement in

886
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 2: the opposite direction. So I think we've already seen that,

887
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,760
Speaker 2: like from like Me Too forward, where people are starting

888
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: to pay attention to things in a different way and

889
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 2: actually attempt to hold outlets and individuals to account. I

890
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: just think it's in very specific arenas thus far that

891
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 2: that seems to be happening. And I think people like

892
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 2: to to sort of pretend that things they do for

893
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 2: entertainment don't touch on the same subjects or don't have

894
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: the same impact or our seriousness, and that, to me

895
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 2: is that that's the slippery slope. I hope that people

896
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: recognize these things are not separate. They're inextricably linked to

897
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 2: the way that we as a culture celebrate people and

898
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 2: former beliefs.

899
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: That's really smart, Got a story about an interesting thing

900
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi. You can

901
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 1: reach us at Hello at tangody dot com. You can

902
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com.

903
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

904
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: me Brigit Toad. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed

905
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is

906
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer.

907
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridgetad. If you want to help us grow,

908
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,319
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909
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,759
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910
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:04,719
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