WEBVTT - More Guns, More Shootings 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.560 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WIKA f Daily with 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:19.880 Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.640 The conversation that I have coming up next with our 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:28.640 friend doctor Jonathan Metzel is one that I gotta tell you, 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:34.760 it gets really exhausting having what feels like the same 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:39.879 conversation over and over again about gun violence in the 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:45.720 United States, about the pervasiveness of mass shootings. You know, 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:51.720 over the holiday, the Thanksgiving Holiday, as you know, folks 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:56.800 are gathered with friends and family and chosen family. You know, 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:02.080 I use it as a day to really just have gratitude. Right. 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.120 It is not about the founding of this nation, is 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:07.959 not about the fucking Pilgrims. It is not about the 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:13.040 mass genocide that was visited upon the indigenous population of 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.760 this country. For me and for my loved ones, it 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:20.680 is about an opportunity for us to gather together, for 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:24.200 us to share some food, make some food, eat too much, 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.440 laugh really hard, drink too much, and just enjoy each 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:32.720 other's time. This Thanksgiving holiday, like so many that have 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:38.399 come before it, have been marred by headlines that are 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:42.560 visited upon us with regard to mass shootings. And the 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:47.680 fact that around many people's tables, they're loved ones won't 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:52.080 be sitting, their loved ones, won't be laughing, their loved 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.560 ones won't be arguing about who needs to wash the 0:01:55.600 --> 0:02:00.240 dishes and who needs to set the kids table. No, 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:05.560 they're dead. They're dead because they decided to, you know, 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.000 go to the grocery store, or go to the movies, 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.560 or you know, go to a queer club to feel 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:14.040 in community with other queer people, or did you just 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:18.000 have a good time. They're dead because they decided to 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:26.120 go to school that day. The arbitrary nature of mass 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.799 shootings in this country, meaning that they can happen anywhere 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:36.280 and at any time, has us all just living on edge, right, Like, 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.239 there's no better way to say it, you know. Jonathan 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:44.280 and our conversation, he will talk about the habitualness of 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:50.520 our practice in terms of moving through these stages of 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:56.079 grief and rage that we vacillate between on a day 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.760 to day basis, and how it has just become a norm, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.919 a part of how we exist in this country because 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:08.440 there's no end to it. You know. Jonathan often talks 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:13.760 about the fact that liberals and progressives need to reframe 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:18.120 their message and reframe their messaging. And my thought is 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.960 that it isn't necessary like in this particular instance. You 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.600 know that I talk about messaging a lot when I 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:29.239 talk about electoral politics. This issue isn't about the messaging. 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:34.400 It's about who's in power, right, It is about who 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:39.600 wields the power. Because every sensible person with a brain 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:44.560 in their head knows that AR fifteens shouldn't be readily 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:48.600 available to civilians for fucking what, what are you hunting 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.880 that you need an AAR fifteen four? Not a goddamn thing. 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:56.240 It was a gun that was made for war, right, 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:58.240 So why does that need to be a part of 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:03.320 your fucking stockpile? And if it is, you should definitely 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:07.720 be on somebody's fucking list, right, somebody that's you know, 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:12.800 is being surveiled as being watched for their potential for 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:18.960 fucking violence. But we don't do that, right because that 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:23.640 would be encroaching on people's freedoms freedom to kill as 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.239 many people as possible in the shortest amount of time. 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:32.200 Every sensible person knows that you should have a waiting period, 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:37.159 you should have rigorous background checks. There should be an 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:43.920 age requirement in every fucking state, that is nationalized, that 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.559 you need to go through a series of background checks, 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:51.479 you need to go through safety training, You need to 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:55.800 then get re certified every year in order to keep 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.960 right your weapons. If you have any types of infraction, 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.679 whether they be domestic violence, whether it be any type 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.680 of violent incident, that then your guns are taken away. 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:14.200 You should be in mass databases right that if you 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:16.719 have a weapon in your home, you should have to 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:20.920 put up a sticker that says, so you know, one 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.680 of the things that I did see over the Thanksgiving holiday, 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.200 And again, I don't know if this is just something 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.960 that is happening in New York, and I probably believe 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.560 that it is because of a Supreme Court decision that 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:37.280 overturned New York's ability to ban assault rifles right, which 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.760 had been a hundred year old ban. But you know, 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.440 the Supreme Court, they don't give a fuck about precedent, 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:46.520 and they don't give a fuck about American constituents, citizens 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.200 and our safety or anything. They care about power, right, 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.000 they care about owning the libs. But there was a 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:58.599 commercial that was airing and it was parents, white parents 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.479 dropping their kid off for a play date, and they're 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:08.920 asking sore heterosexual couple is at the door and another 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:13.839 white heterosexual couple answers the door, and they say, hey, 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.120 you know, just quick question, is the tiger going to 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:21.560 be on a leash for the entire time that you 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:25.080 know Johnny is going to be overplaying? You know, just 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.480 want to make sure that everybody's going to be safe, 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:35.479 because they are equating in this commercial a you know, lion, 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:41.960 a non domesticated animal being loose in the home as 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:47.320 the same thing as having an unlocked gun in the home. 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:53.640 And it is a commercial about people asking right and 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.680 needing to ask the question do you have a gun 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.440 in your home? And if you do, is the gun 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.480 locked up? Right? Because I don't want my fucking kid 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.880 being dropped off at a place someone's home where they 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:09.440 have a bunch of guns and guess what, none of 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:14.080 them are locked up, And so there is access that 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.160 is granted to young kids, which, by the way, according 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:24.800 to this PSA commercial, gun violence is the number one 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:31.040 killer of kids now, right, So asking these questions and 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.000 feeling like you have the ability to ask these questions 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:38.840 as parents are really fucking important. But going back to 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:45.440 my earlier statements is that everyone knows everyone believes if 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:47.480 you want to own a gun, own a fucking gun, 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.080 but it should be a normal gun, not a weapon 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:56.120 of mass destruction. And it should be registered, and you 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:58.320 should have had to go through safety training, and it 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:01.640 should be locked up, and it should be registered, and 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:03.920 you should be of a certain age and having to 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.280 have gone through a series of background checks to make 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:11.160 sure that you are not a violent person, Like you 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.360 should have to prove those fucking things in order to 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.880 be able to get a gun that can kill someone, right, Like, 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:23.960 this is not rocket science, but the powers that be, 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:28.120 the people that are in power, want to make it 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.720 seem as if we're crazy for asking for these things, 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.840 and that it is normal to wake up every morning 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.520 and to see a headline of five people gunned down, 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.880 six people gunned down, nineteen people gunned down, fifty people 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.720 gunned down. That that's just how we should live. That's 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:52.400 the cost of freedom. It doesn't feel very free. So 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.120 coming up next my conversation with our in house doctor, 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.720 doctor Jonathan Metzel, where he will talk about his upcoming 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.520 book book that he used writing about gun violence and 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:07.439 why it was denied from thirty five publishers. Given this 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:11.760 great success of his previous book, Dying of Whiteness, and 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.640 what it is that we all need to be doing 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:21.120 and paying attention to right now. Folks. You know that 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.640 whenever we have the opportunity to speak with our in 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.920 house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzil, we are always pleased, sometimes 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.400 depressed when we finished, But you know, it's important to 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:35.720 have these conversations. Jonathan. You know I thought about you 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:40.680 a lot over the Thanksgiving holiday because it seemed like 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:46.880 there were multiple mass shootings that happened leading up to 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:52.040 the holiday that happened over the holiday, and it is 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:58.600 as if I am struggling with the ability to stay 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:04.640 enraged with headlines that just keep coming. Now what feels 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.360 like just on a regular basis, I think that the 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:10.679 last stat that I heard, and you correct me if 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:14.760 I'm wrong, which is that we are at what November, 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:19.120 the end of November, barreling towards the end of the year, 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.360 and we've had in this country over six hundred mass shootings. 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:27.280 More mass shootings have taken place than have days in 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.920 the calendar year thus far. So I just want to 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:36.040 get your thoughts on the number of shootings that have 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:41.640 happened over the last week or so and let what 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.320 do you think is happening? Are we covering it more? 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.720 Are there more shootings? Is it just like par for 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:52.960 the course? What is happening? Well, you're first year exactly 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.440 right that there has been more than one. If you define, 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.839 as many scholars do, a mass shooting is for or 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:07.640 victims shot usually strangers. There have been over six hundred 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.719 in the US this year, so quite a bit more 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:15.320 than one per calendar day. The number I mean, if 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.000 it's just you turn open the news any day and 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:19.480 they were going to be a couple of mass shootings. 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:23.600 We didn't used to count mass shootings, used to be 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:25.600 just the high profile kind of things that we've been seeing. 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:29.280 Over the past couple of weeks, we started counting all 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.360 the multiple victim shootings, which we should have been doing 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.760 from the beginning, and it turned out that there are 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:35.840 a lot of multiple victim shootings that don't make it 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.640 to the news because they're like in urban areas and 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.360 stuff like that. And so when you start adding it up, 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.679 the toll is not just the carnage that we see 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:52.600 in suburbia, which is horrible and in places where it's arresting, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.720 but there's also a toll in I mean, really, the 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.040 true toll of mass shootings are the ones that don't 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:00.559 make it to the news, right, The true toll of 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:04.520 mass shootings and gun violence happened in like inner cities 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:06.240 and that kind of thing. And I think for me, 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:08.800 you know, when you start adding up just the overall 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.920 toll on an aggregate, it's it's breathtaking. It's really breathtaking. Yeah, 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.360 as you know, I'm kind of in the middle of this, 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:19.120 and so, like many gun scholars, I spent a good 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.800 part of my Thanksgiving going on the news and trying 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.400 to explain. For the US news, it was kind of 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:28.520 trying to give perspective. And the minute the minute we started, 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:33.920 the minute we started getting some perspective about about the 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.440 Colorado shooting, then there was the Walmart shooting, on and on, 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.400 and so it's kind of like, where are we going? 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.520 What's the plan here? And it just feels like there's 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:46.840 so much anger and anguish and as you're right, you're 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.280 right that the next day there's going to be another headline. 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:54.520 And even the Colorado shooting, which even five years ago 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.800 would have been a national headline for months, was replaced 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.800 by another mass shooting the very next day. And so 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:05.760 the level of helplessness about this issue is just so frustrating. 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.360 I mean, we're gonna shatter the record that this year, 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.320 I think for gun deaths in a year, which was 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:14.360 about forty two thousand. Looks like we're on pace for 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:19.280 more than that. And it just becomes habituated in a way. 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.520 And so I don't know. For me, I care about 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.640 the mass shootings, which is what everybody hears about, but 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.200 I also care just about the role of guns in 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.640 everyday life. And there was an article in the Washington 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:35.360 Post about guns showing up at protests and what does 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.880 that say for just the potential for violence, not just 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:43.840 the shootings we see, but whatever civic discourse we have left. 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.559 And so it's a it's a problem that's only getting worse. 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:48.840 And on the other hand, I'll just say, and excuse 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:53.120 me for going on long about this. Yeah, but the 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.719 book I'm writing now is about mass shootings in America 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:01.440 and looking at race and mass shootings. And not to 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.320 do any sour grapes, but my last book won a 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.160 bunch of awards. It's sold quite more than one hundred 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.120 thousand copies. It did very well, and I couldn't find 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.920 a publisher for my book about mass shootings, because every 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.880 single publisher I went to. Now I have a home, thankfully, 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.480 but every publisher I went to told me there's no 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.200 market for gun books because nobody wants to think about this. 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:24.560 And I'm about to prove them wrong the book I'm 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:29.080 writing now. But I you know, I don't know. I 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.280 wrote Dying of Whiteness. It won all these awards, and 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.280 then I had like thirty five rejections in a row 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.240 when I wanted to write a book about guns. And 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.920 so it's just like people feel like, oh, everybody's tuned 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.200 out about it, and that's you know, to me, I 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.240 don't believe that, But that's kind of the world written. 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.240 What is next? I mean, that's kind of that's really 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:56.520 shocking to me, the response from publishers that nobody's interested 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:00.160 in it when it is something that has permeated did 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.440 our everyday existence. There's not a day that goes by 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.480 that we aren't inundated with gun violence. And so was 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.320 that like just the blanket response or that they don't 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:17.760 want to touch it for whatever other political reasons. They've 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:19.960 tried selling gun books in the past and they just 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.520 don't sell because half the country won't buy them because 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:26.280 they think that it's like liberal take your gun book, 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:30.280 and so Republicans automatically won't buy it by the framing 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.840 of other gun books, and then they think liberals already 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.360 feel like they know everything they know about it and 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:38.360 they don't need to learn anymore. And so you're kind 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:42.120 of killing the audience before you get in there. You 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:44.280 know me, I'm a complicated person, and I'm like, I'm 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.920 about to overturn that. But even now, it's like a 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.200 daily fight just to explain why I think it's important. 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.240 I keep saying, like this is a story on the 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.280 front page of the newspaper every single day or every day. 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:58.600 You just have to tap into the complexity of it, 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.120 not tell people what they think they already know. And 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.840 so I'm hoping I'm writing one that's a bit more challenging, 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.480 but we'll have to see. I mean, if nothing else, 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:13.680 you and I will be talking about you know, I'll 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:17.120 be happy to talk about it, yea. You know, one 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.440 of the things that I do want to touch upon 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.920 in this conversation again, and I you know, obviously at 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.760 the core the issue is access to guns, right, Like 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.440 we know that that that's the problem. There are too 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:32.200 many guns in America. Access to guns, it's just way 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:37.280 too easy to get one, so on and so forth. However, 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:41.120 with the past several shootings that we have talked about, 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:43.000 that you and I have talked about on Woke Gay 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.680 app from Buffalo. It was a white supremacist with a 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:53.720 map with a manifesto in in Colorado. It is anti 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:59.400 gay rhetoric. And you know, unfortunately we heard from or 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:03.800 as people made this man viral, the father of the shooter, 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:09.080 who was more concerned with his son not being gay 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:11.920 than it was that he committed an act of absolute 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:18.160 depraved violence, killing several people at that club. Then you have, 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:23.320 you know, threats of anti Semitic violence, and so on 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.480 and so forth. It seems to me, Jonathan, that the 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:31.360 last several high profile shootings, the ones again that we 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:37.359 see on the headlines that are gracing the cable news segments, 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:42.359 are ones that are spawning from hate. They're not just 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:48.639 your quote unquote average every day domestic dispute, your average 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:54.639 every day you know, gang territory or things of that nature. 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:59.280 These are actually spawning from hate of particular groups. At 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:05.520 a time when political violence and anti gay anti Black, 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.640 anti Jewish, all of these things are at an all 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:13.280 time high. Can you talk about that and the root 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:18.360 the causation right outside of the access to guns being 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.840 prevalent in this country unlike anywhere else in the world, 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.240 talk about the root that the patterns that we are 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:30.560 seeing in terms of the who are the victims and 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.600 who are the perpetrators of this gun violence? Well, I 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:38.960 would say one important point to note is that is 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.560 that just the very first part of your question, there 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:46.920 are many more everyday shootings. Right. So the finding we've 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.840 had in public health for the past forty years is 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.440 the more guns, the more shootings. It's probably one of 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:58.000 the most contested findings in the history of America because 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:00.200 that everybody then said, oh, there are anti guy and 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.040 all this kind of stuff. But so we just have 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.240 a lot of guns in households, and so the first 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.320 part of your question is there are a lot of 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:10.720 shootings we don't hear about, right. Those are the ones 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.680 that are the partner shootings and guns suicides and accidental shootings. 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:16.359 There's a lot more of all of that. We're just 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.240 not hearing about it right now. And so it's important 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:21.960 to note that what we're seeing is a very particular 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:26.360 sample bias in a particular way of much bigger category 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:31.000 of gun violence. Now that being said, it does seem 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.680 to me like when you add guns to any situation, 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.880 you're providing an outlet for the kind of hate that's 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.680 being validated right now. And so there is, of course, 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.960 as we talked about last week, a real validation for 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:51.119 anti gay hate, anti trans hate, anti semitism, and guns 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:55.840 become almost a character in those narratives of I have 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.520 this intense emotion, it's being validated by society, and here's 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.199 a tool that's going to let me happen address that. 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:05.920 And then people who used to be what we would 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.280 call like the most on the fringe, but now I 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.560 don't know. We've got Mike Lindel running for them, Speaker 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:16.239 of the House, m and outhkeepers stockpiling weapons for you know, 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.040 for January six and all the kind of stuff. So 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:20.399 what is the fringe? The fringe is kind of moving 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:24.640 like algae toward the middle right now, yea and so 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.600 and so. But but again, when you add guns to 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:33.760 this mix, you're providing an outlet for this kind of extremism. 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:37.320 You know, I what I struggle with and it's really 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.359 you know what I am struggling with and I and 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:43.320 I said this at the top, is the ability to 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:49.080 sustain outrage? Is the ability to sustain grief? Right, um, 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:54.959 Because at this point it's just so rampant that you'll 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.119 if you think about these things on a regular basis 0:20:58.160 --> 0:20:59.960 in the way that we do, you won't want to 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:04.639 leave your house. And So when you're writing this book 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.880 right now, Jonathan, what is the emotion that you are 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:13.639 looking to conjure in the reader. Is it one that 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.639 is just informative, this is what you need to understand 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.040 in a historical context and how we got to where 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:26.719 we are, or is it like this feeling of rage, 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:30.720 of anger, or of grief and sadness about where we 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:38.960 are in terms of our gun predicament. So my title 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.240 for the book, which is now being rejected by the publisher, 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:45.280 this is sour Grape, say I apologize? Is how We Lost? 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:47.560 That was the working title of the book, and it's 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:49.879 kind of a story of how a miracle lost the 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.240 gun debate. They think that nobody's going to buy a 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.360 book with lost in the title because it's too much 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:57.800 of a downer. And I'm like, the whole topic is 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:00.440 a downer. So I'm trying to tell people, like how 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.639 we got to this point, which is in part a 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:06.520 story about conservative America, but it's also a story about 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:08.520 a liberal America. And they want to change the title 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:12.240 to like, you know, a doctor at the front lines 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:15.200 of Yak a yak, yak yak, And I'm like, man, nobody, 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:17.960 let's tap into the emotion that people are having right now. 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:24.480 And so I'm just trying to explain how we got here, honestly, 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:28.560 and I think people will be surprised to know it's 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:31.320 not just an in our a story, it's also missteps 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:39.040 by liberal America. Liberal America is has for the past 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:42.400 forty years. What I argue in the book, it's put 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:46.360 its faith in public health, which is what we do now, 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:48.840 which is that we only have a narrative after the shooting. 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:52.640 We don't go further upstream to talk about the judges 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:55.800 and the political system and the rigged elections. We have 0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:59.360 no strategy for that when it came to guns for decades, 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:01.160 and we're paying the price for it now. And so 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:03.320 I'm trying to kind of tell a story that is 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:07.080 also about liberal America understanding how we got here and 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:09.639 it'll probably by the time it comes out, be titled 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:21.119 like Sunny Paris and Springtime or something like that. For 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:23.720 anybody out there, Man, don't write a book. It ruins 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:28.280 your life. But I would say that I would say 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:30.040 that that's the story I'm trying to tell, is liberal 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:32.800 America understand Like how the hell we got here? Which 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:35.040 is the kind of the story that I try to tell, 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:37.240 that the answer was in front of us all along. 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:40.360 We just we got into this pattern of mass shooting, 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:45.040 then calling for public health based gun reform, then nothing happens, 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:47.359 Rince repeat. That's kind of the story of the book. 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:51.520 And and and so it really is a book about 0:23:51.520 --> 0:23:55.240 liberal America needing to change its tactics and when it 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:59.760 comes to guns, to understand the upstream politics of judges 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:04.040 and capital and all these other factors. And so I 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:06.199 think how we lost to me as a catchy title, 0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:11.840 but it'll probably be like Puppies in your Bed? Yeah, 0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:17.000 and can we can we win? Yeah? You know, because 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:20.000 I think that one of the things that I have 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:23.560 realized that I've noticed, I should say not realized, that 0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:28.199 I've noticed over the last um last several shootings is 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:32.040 that doctors are going on to talk about gun violence 0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:35.480 in the United States as a public health crisis in 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:39.280 the way that we frame the pandemic, in the way 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:42.480 that we have framed other issues. And I wonder, is 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:47.640 that Jonathan just too little, too late, or it does 0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:51.520 does that conversation in and of itself how we understand 0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:55.359 public health which again now with COVID and republic and 0:24:55.400 --> 0:24:58.920 because of Republicans and their apprehension of you know, wanting 0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:03.040 to have their constituent live um, public health has become 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:07.040 something that is highly politicized. So does it even help 0:25:07.400 --> 0:25:10.080 or does it continue to hurt this issue get the 0:25:10.119 --> 0:25:14.159 kind attraction that it needs by couching it in this way. 0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:20.280 It's it's it's great as a fifth tier strategy, it's 0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:23.160 ridiculous as a political strategy. I mean, I know there's 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:25.120 a lot of people like me who spent our careers 0:25:25.119 --> 0:25:26.800 focusing on it. But I think we have to admit 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:30.240 that what we're doing is not working. And so I 0:25:30.280 --> 0:25:34.159 think it's a horrible political strategy. Um, you know, we 0:25:34.200 --> 0:25:36.560 need to we need to reboot the whole thing. So 0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:39.000 that's my sense. But is it but is it a 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:44.080 horrible strategy? Because like, here's the thing, because this is 0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:46.600 the reality, Jonathan. It's not working because the people that 0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:49.200 are in power don't want it to work. Exactly right, 0:25:49.200 --> 0:25:52.560 it's not it's not because how the how it's and 0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:54.960 this is this is I think where where I end 0:25:55.040 --> 0:25:57.600 up wanting to throw my hands up. And I'm grateful 0:25:57.760 --> 0:26:00.200 for the fact of people like yourself that don't throw 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:03.200