1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com below, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy B. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. David have 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: the second installment in this mini series that we are 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: currently in the middle of about China under the Chairman 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: Mao years Uh. This part is on the Great Famine. 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: So we're in the middle of the mini series and 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: basically when the Chinese Communist Party or CCP came to 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: power in the People's Republic of China. In that's actually 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: when the People's Republic was founded. Chairman Mao, who was 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: the chair of the party said quote, not even one 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: person shall die of hunger. And at this point China 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: was really already no stranger to famine. Tens of millions 14 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: of people had died in famines that had swept across 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: the nation in the late eighteen seventies and then again 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: between eighteen ninety six and nine hundred. There had also 17 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: been a series of serious droughts um in the nineteen twenties, 18 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: and famine had followed in the path of the Sino 19 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: Japanese War, but the worst of all of these was 20 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: definitely following the Great Leap Forward, which we talked about 21 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: in the previous installment of this mini series. This movement 22 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: began in nineteen fifty eight, and during the Great Leap Forward, 23 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: China basically shifted its economy entirely from one that was 24 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: based on supply and demand to a command economy, also 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: known as a planned economy, so the government essentially planned 26 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: what was going to be made in where and by whom, 27 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: and all the economic decisions became centralized, as well as 28 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: all the decisions about production. This process had really started 29 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: before the Great Leap Forward, but that's when it really 30 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: kicked into high gear. This planned economy didn't really account 31 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: for variations in supply and demand, or an expected shifts 32 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: in the weather, or differences in labor and arable land 33 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: and farming practices from one province to another. And then 34 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: on top of that, the people who were making decisions 35 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: in this economy didn't always understand the realities of the 36 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,559 Speaker 1: labor force or the work they were doing, so consequently 37 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: there were some pretty bad decisions. The result was a 38 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: huge famine that started in nineteen fifty nine, although there 39 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: were a few isolated pockets that started earlier than that. 40 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: In China, For many many years. This famine when was 41 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: known as the three Years of Natural Disasters or the 42 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: three Difficult Years, or sometimes the three Years of Bad Weather. 43 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: And while there was some bad weather in some parts 44 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: of China, this famine was really not at all the 45 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: result of a natural disaster of any sort. No UH. 46 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: China's shift to a planned economy affected its agricultural workforce 47 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: almost immediately, so there was a big focus on uniformity, 48 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: implementing the same agricultural plans this same way in every province, 49 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: regardless of what that province's terrain was actually like, and 50 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: if there wasn't enough farmland, forest, grasslands and wetlands were 51 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: to be made into arable land. Consequently, there was deforestation, 52 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: which led to erosion. People also wasted a whole lot 53 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: of time and labor, labor and fruitless efforts to transform 54 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: lakes and rivers into farmland. In addition to that, people 55 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: who had been nomadic livestock herders were displaced when the 56 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: grasslands where they had been hurting their uh their animals 57 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: were instead made into farmland, and the central planners were 58 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: making economic decisions, but they were not farmers. In in 59 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: addition to being out of their field. They were separated 60 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: from the realities of the workers, the markets, and the products, 61 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: so they were basically making decisions and setting goals without 62 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: the information they needed to do it well, and some 63 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: of the directions they gave were just simply devastating. For example, 64 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: and one province, an administrator changed his mind over and 65 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: over about what he wanted the people to be planting, 66 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: so the peasants would have to dig up every crop 67 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: and replace it with another one when he changed his mind. 68 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: By the time he actually settled on a crop and 69 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: stuck to it, it was too late in the growing 70 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: season for it to be harvested before the winter came. 71 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: And another example, people in their commune were forced to 72 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: plant their crops way too early in the season and 73 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: the seeds just froze in the ground, so thanks to 74 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: mismanagement from various angles, the harvests were basically primed to 75 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: be poor. In addition to the overall effect of these 76 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: policies from the Great Leap Forward, one campaign in particular 77 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: was extremely destructive to China's crops, and it didn't really 78 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: have anything directly to do with farming. On May eight, 79 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: Mouse spoke at the second session of the Eighth party Congress, 80 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: and there he said, quote, the whole people, including five 81 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: year old children, must be mobilized to eliminate the four pests. 82 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: So these pests were mosquitoes, flies, rats, and sparrows. And 83 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: those first three probably make fairly immediate sense to most people. Mosquitoes, flies, 84 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: and rats all spread disease, and they're generally thought of 85 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: as dirty, and most people do not like them. And 86 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: sparrows were on the list because they were eating grain. 87 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: So people really set to work. In addition to the mosquitoes, 88 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: the flies, and the rats, uh set to work trying 89 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: to kill sparrows. Whole classrooms of students would go outside 90 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: to knock down sparrows nests. People would ring gongs and 91 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: make other noise to try to frighten sparrows away from 92 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: their roosts. They would just make really constant noise to 93 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: keep the sparrows from landing anywhere ever, and the birds 94 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: would eventually disdrop from the sky because they were exhausted. 95 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: For a while, sparrows actually became parts of people's diets 96 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: until the birds themselves became scarce. And sparrows did eat grain. 97 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: I mean, we know that, but we're also eating locusts. 98 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: So by ninety nine the sparrow population had dropped so 99 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: drastically that locusts actually became a problem in the fields, 100 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: and they destroyed crops and contributed to the burgeoning famine. 101 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: It became pretty obvious pretty quickly that killing spars is 102 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: a bad idea, so in nineteen sixty the government decided 103 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: that bed bugs would be the fourth pest um, And 104 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: apart from sparrow killing and the clear role that it 105 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: played in contributing to a famine, the campaign did actually 106 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: reduce the spread of diseases that travel via mosquitoes, flies 107 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: and rats. So on the one hand, it did have 108 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: a small but measurable positive impact, but the measurable effect 109 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: that had on the crops was much bigger and much 110 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: more terrible. This is actually We had a couple of 111 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: things that led to the this mini series, and one 112 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: was that someone recommended this the Foe Pest campaign as 113 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: a subject for a podcast. UM. I don't think the 114 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: person who suggested it realized quite how huge the consequences were, 115 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: because it came about in one of the we would 116 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: like something a little lighter to talk about, um, and 117 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: we got a lot of things that were not at 118 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: all light when we asked for that, and they were 119 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: clearly jokes and this was not one of them. Um, 120 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: So before were we talked about what happened when this 121 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: running out of food caused by the Great Leap Forward 122 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: policies and the killing of all the sparrows, before we 123 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: talk about how that played out. Let's take a brief 124 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: moment for a word from a sponsor. It sounds just fine. 125 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: So to return to the famine, Yes, China ran out 126 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: of food. The very nature of the People's Communes which 127 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: have been created as part of the Great Leap Forward, 128 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: actually contributed to the famine. This was both in terms 129 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: of contributing to the food shortage itself and contributing to 130 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: an inability to deal with the shortage of food. And 131 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: Casey missed the episode on the Great Leap Forward. Farm 132 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: collectives had been organized in uh together to form People's Communes, 133 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: and these were given overly ambitious goals for how they're 134 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: big their harvests would be. The goals were simply too 135 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: big for people to be able to meet them, no 136 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: matter how hard they worked, no matter how many advancements 137 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: were made in irrigation and farming equipment. The goals were impossible, 138 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: and the government had already proven that it was willing 139 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: to crack down hard on discent that was also talked 140 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: about a little bit in the Greatly Forward episode, and 141 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: that failure was not going to be an option. So 142 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: administrators vastly overreported how much they had harvested so it 143 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: would look like they had met these ridiculously high goals. 144 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,359 Speaker 1: And then the government, believing there to be a surplus, 145 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: encouraged the communal canteens at the communes uh and elsewhere 146 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: in the provinces to service serve really lavish meals. The 147 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: government continued to exporting grain and providing food aid to 148 00:08:55,160 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: other nations. Um Agricultural laborers also needed more food than 149 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: before because they were being expected to work in other 150 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: industries during their farms off season. So a year or 151 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: so into the Great Leap, thanks to all of these 152 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: things we've already talked about, many parts of China ran 153 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: out of food. And when this happened, the communal canteens, 154 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: which were supposed to be a way to keep China's 155 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: workers fed, actually became a primary contributor to the famine. 156 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: Even before the canteen dran out of food, in the 157 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: most remote provinces, it could be miles from where people 158 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: lived and worked to where they were supposed to eat, So, 159 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: on top of the back breaking labor that came along 160 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: with the great leap forwards astronomical projected targets for their production, 161 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: people had to then walk great distances to and from 162 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: the communal canteens just to get their meals. The canteens 163 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 1: also distributed food based on people's ability to work, so 164 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: as food became scarce, children and the elderly especially received 165 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: less and less food because they weren't working. So basically, 166 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: populations who were already at risk for various health effects 167 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: were getting the least food when things got really die 168 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: or people even started stealing food from the government run preschools, 169 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: daycares and nursing homes. Pregnant women were also particularly at risk, 170 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 1: so their bodies of course needed more nourishment, so they 171 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: were already at a disadvantage because the portions were simply 172 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: not sufficient to sustain the whole process they were going 173 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: through building another human inside of themselves that takes some calories, uh, 174 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: and then his workloads got higher and higher, those pregnant 175 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: women weren't really able to keep up with the physical 176 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: demands that were made of them. So we're not saying 177 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: at all that pregnant women can't work, but this was 178 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: seriously backbreaking labor that was really hard even on like 179 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: very hale and hardy people. So this was driving you know, young, 180 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: healthy people to exhaustions. So add to that again creating 181 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: another human, which is also very exhausting in many ways. 182 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: It's a pretty impossible scenario. When the food supplied dwindled, 183 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 1: the very tool the Chinese government had created to feed 184 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: its workers had no means to feed them anymore. The 185 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: communes were supposed to be dishing out free meals, and 186 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: there just was no more food to dish out. So 187 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty nine and nineteen sixty the government's recommendations 188 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: turned to food augmentation and food substitution. The government had 189 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: actually actually already decreed that people not eat meat at 190 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: all before they started making these recommendations, so people were 191 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: already making some dietary swaps. Um you know, anyone who 192 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: had eaten meat previously and no longer could. People were 193 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: already swapping other things into their diet before these official 194 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 1: official recommendations came into play, and food augmentation was basically 195 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: a collection of cooking and preparation methods that added bulk 196 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: to meals without requiring more ingredients. So it started by 197 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: augmenting rice dishes with corn until corn also became scarce, 198 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: and then it evolved to taking rice that was partly cooked, 199 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 1: grinding it up in a mill, adding yeast, and steaming 200 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: it as it started to leven. And this ushed buns 201 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: that required less flour than normal. Yeah. The reason that 202 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: corn was considered an augment when we think of corn 203 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: as food is that corn was more used for animal 204 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: feed than for people. Um At that point, different augmentation 205 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: methods were devised based on what was available to eat 206 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: in various regions of China, and while these methods might 207 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: have yielded a larger volume of food, they didn't really 208 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: increase the nutritional content of the food. So while people 209 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: had physically more food to eat, they didn't have a 210 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: corresponding increasing calories or nutrients. So edema or fluid retention, 211 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: which is a side effect of malnourishment, became endemic. In 212 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: July of nineteen sixty, when it was clear that augmentation 213 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: was simply not enough to solve the problem, China started 214 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: encouraging food substitution. First, people were encouraged to swap fruits 215 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: and vegetables into their diet in place of grain. That 216 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: by this point, even before the government made this commendation, 217 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 1: a lot of provinces had already run out of their food, 218 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: their fruit and vegetables surplus because people were doing exactly that. 219 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: Uh people started scavenging bark, roots and even wild plants. 220 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: Some resorted to eating white clay, which contained calcium but 221 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: also sometimes caused constipation, in some cases so badly that 222 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: it was fatal. People cultivated clorella, which is a type 223 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: of algae that was being used as pig feed for 224 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: human consumption, So they either grew it in puddles or 225 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: in pots in their homes, and they would feed the 226 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: clorella urine, either their own urine or urine from their animals, 227 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: and the list of food substitutes grew. The husks and 228 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: stocks of grain crops like corn and rice became adopted 229 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: as food items. Potato stems, lichen insects, tree bark, at 230 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: least for the trees had not been felled to make 231 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: room for farmland. Wild vegetables, and wild fungi were all 232 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: kind of added into the diet wherever possible, but that 233 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: some of these substitutes, especially the wild vegetables and the fungi, 234 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: were really either inedible or poisonous, and people got sick 235 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: from eating them. People also got sick from eating food 236 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: that was spoiled. And there was one UH official that 237 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: was on a tour and found a home where people 238 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: were using human waste as fertilizer. But the human waste 239 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: they were using was basically all fiber, because all they 240 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: had been eating was this undigestible husks and stalks of 241 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: other plants. And in some provinces this again hearkens back 242 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: a little bit too um the previous episode in this 243 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: mini series, people's cooking implements had been confiscated to force 244 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: them to eat in the communal canteens. But in these 245 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: parts of China, people couldn't prepare substitutes for themselves even 246 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: if they wanted to, so because of all this, people 247 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: were dying through starvation, poisoning, and malnutrition related diseases, as 248 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: well as a sharp increase at in violent crimes and suicides, 249 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: and in desperation, some people also turned to cannibalism. There 250 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: were more than one thousand reports of people being eaten, 251 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: sometimes after being killed. Human flesh was even traded on 252 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: the black market as a meat. People also trafficked women 253 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: and children in exchange for food. Just dire. All around. 254 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: It was extremely dire. I saw various statistics. A lot 255 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: of their record keeping during this period was not great, 256 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: and some of it was actually pretty good, but has 257 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: been kept secret for a really long time. Um huge 258 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: spikes in all kinds of violent crimes, just because people 259 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: were so desperate for anything to eat at all, and 260 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: China had been strict and swift and punishing people who 261 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: spoke out. So most of the resistance on the part 262 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: of workers was in the form of idoling. They would 263 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: pretend to work, they would work slowly uh there was 264 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: some food stealing, or they would conceal what they had 265 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: harvested and they would squirrel away the rest of it. 266 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: People also ate food raw in the fields as they worked, 267 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: and so when harvest time arrived in nineteen sixty, some 268 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: places actually had nothing to harvest because of this. The 269 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: food had literally been eaten right out of the crops. 270 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: As the famine got worse, some people started to leave 271 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: the rural areas. Tens of millions of people moved into cities, 272 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: and this was actually in defiance of bands on migration. 273 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: People often didn't have much better lives in the city. 274 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: They wound up doing the most menial, dangerous and dirty 275 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: work available, usually for the least money. This big influx 276 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: of new residents also strained the city's resources. In some places, 277 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: like the whole health care system basically collapsed because of 278 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: the influx of sick and starving people from the country, 279 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: and the government, for its part, chalked up the famine 280 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: and all of these deaths to quote class enemies who 281 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: were sabotaging the people's communes in their opinions. The government's 282 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: slogan at this point was good days make up for 283 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: the bad ones. During the famine, dignitaries from other nations 284 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: who visited China were generally given escorted tours that went 285 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: to areas that weren't affected. You know, although food was 286 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: scarce and pretty much all of China things were the 287 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: worst in world rural areas and even within China, there 288 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: was for almost two years a great effort at every 289 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: level to make it seem as though things were proceeding normally, 290 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: and even so, other nations really did get wind that 291 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: something was not quite right, something was amiss. The Red 292 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,239 Speaker 1: Cross offered aid, but made the mistake of starting by 293 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: asking whether Tibet needed help, and this was just after 294 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: the uprising in Tibet that led to the Dali Lama's 295 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: flight to India. When China replied that Tibet was fine, 296 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: the Red Cross asked whether China was okay too, since 297 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: China's position was that Tibet was part of China, there 298 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: was really some umbridge taken, and Unial maatterly declined the 299 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: Red Cross's attempt to help, yeah that that this was 300 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: basically the biggest faux pa that the Red Cross could 301 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: have made when asking if China needed their help was 302 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: to insinuate that Tibet was not part of China. Um Eventually, 303 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: a couple of Chinese officials were instrumental in convincing Chairman 304 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: Mao and the rest of the Chinese Communist Party that 305 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: they had to end the greatly forward and stopped the famine. 306 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: One was Lu Shaochi, who at that point was the 307 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: head of the Chinese head of State and for a 308 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: while he was considered to be Mao's heir apparent in 309 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: terms of leading the CCP. Lou saw conditions in China 310 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: that horrified him when he toured it in April of 311 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one. People were starving to death and entire 312 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: villages were virtually empty. The homes of the people who 313 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: had died or fled had even been dismantled and used 314 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: as fuel for the fires, and no one would tell 315 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: him the truth about what happened. One of these stops 316 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: was in his home village, where he found really horrific conditions, 317 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: including a communal canteen that had almost nothing to eat. 318 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: A lot of people were starving or had starved. He 319 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: realized when he was visiting that the reason he had 320 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: stopped getting letters from home was that the people who 321 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: knew him couldn't lie to him, and they were also 322 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: too afraid to tell him the truth, so consequently they 323 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: just stopped writing. He held a village meeting at which 324 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,959 Speaker 1: he said quote, I haven't returned home for nearly forty years. 325 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: I really wanted to come home for a visit. Now 326 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: I have seen how bitter your lives are. We have 327 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: not done our jobs well, and we beg for your pardon. 328 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,479 Speaker 1: From that point on, you became an important, outspoken critic 329 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: of the Great Leap Forwards policies, placing the blame for 330 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: it directly on the Chinese Communist Party, not on the 331 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: weather class enemies or any of the other skategoats that 332 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: have been used thus far. He came to a sad end, 333 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: which we will probably talk about in our next episode 334 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: in the since alment. Uh Lee Fu Chune, the chairman 335 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: of the State Planning Commission, was another person who really 336 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: helped the Chinese government backtrack out of this mess. He 337 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: orchestrated the nation's retreat from the Great Leap Forward plan. 338 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: He had really supported the plan and had stuck to 339 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: the party line before lose scathing criticisms when he came 340 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: back from his visit to his home village, Lee described 341 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: the Leap Forward as too high, too big, too equal, 342 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: to dispersed, to chaotic, too fast, and too inclined to 343 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: transfer resource. Under his direction, they put plans together to 344 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: lower the astronomical production targets and to write the economy. 345 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: He still really stood by Chairman Mao, though, and said 346 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: that his directives had been entirely correct, but that everyone 347 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: else had made mistakes in implementing them. Um this famine 348 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 1: actually had some enormous consequences long term for China, and 349 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: we will talk about those after another brief word from 350 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: a sponsor, so to talk about the consequences of the famine. 351 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: As the famine reached a really critical point, the Chinese 352 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: government started returning private plots of land to the peasantry 353 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: so people could grow food again. And this was a solution, 354 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: but of course not one that was immediate. They didn't 355 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: instantly have food in the manute the minute they got farmland, 356 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,479 Speaker 1: necessarily unless it just happened to be the right season. 357 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: They also got rid of the dining halls and started 358 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: importing grain to feed people. China's own supply of grain, 359 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: having been so damaged by all of this, didn't really 360 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: start to grow back again until nineteen sixty two, at 361 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: which point the government started redistributing some of the harvest 362 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: back to the people. A lot of the greatly forwards 363 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: industrial projects were never finished because the labor to do 364 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: them starved to death. According to the Chinese State Statistical Bureau, 365 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: ten million people died. According to western estimates that have 366 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 1: been extrapolated from census records, the number was really were 367 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: like between thirty five million and forty five million, and 368 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't all because of starvation, as we've said in 369 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: a couple of episodes now, some of it was due 370 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: to disease and suicide and violent crime. In Sinyong, sixty 371 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: seven thousand people were clugged to death for various infractions. 372 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: And not surprisingly, the famine also took a pretty significant 373 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: toll on China's birth rate. In ninety seven, China's total 374 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: fertility was six point four children per woman. By nineteen 375 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: sixty one, it was three point three children per woman. 376 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: Birth dropped from thirty four per one thousand people to 377 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: just eighteen point two per thousand. This whole subject was 378 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: taboo in China and was censored for many many years 379 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: until in May of twelve, Lindsey Bo, who was head 380 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: of the Gansu branch of the People's Daily News Service, 381 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: made some posts that denied that the famine had ever 382 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: really happened. First person accounts of it then went viral 383 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: on Chinese social media. Uh Yang Jishang, who was once 384 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: a Chinese reporter, spent ten years on a secret effort 385 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: to find as much documentation of what has really happened 386 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: as he possibly could. He combed through official accounts that 387 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: have been buried or hidden, and the result is an 388 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: enormous two volume work that is banned in China but 389 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: circulated through bootleg copies. It was at least banned as 390 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 1: of twelve and we weren't able to determine whether it 391 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: is still banned today. And his point of view is 392 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: he he doesn't care that it's being bootlegged and passed 393 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: around China. He wants people to have access to the 394 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: history that is found there. The English version is much shorter. 395 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: UM it's sort of a more edited, streamlined version that 396 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 1: his two volume one is basically everything he could find 397 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: at all. UM. The Folk History Project collected oral histories 398 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: of the famine through the work of a hundred and 399 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: eight volunteers who put their work into different UM creative 400 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: and documentary projects. A lot of people. Chairman Mao is saying, 401 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: when there is not enough to eat, people starved to death, 402 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: it is better to let half of people die so 403 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: that others can eat their fill. And while he did 404 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: definitely say that, it seems from context that he was 405 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: speaking metaphorically about workloads. The rest of the statement that 406 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: quote comes from is about production, not about people literally 407 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: having enough food to eat. So people pull that quote 408 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: out in reference to this, but kind of out of contact. 409 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: It came from the same era. That is the thing 410 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: he said. It was probably not the most thoughtful thing 411 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: to say during a time when people were starving to death, 412 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: but it came up. It's from a sort of paragraph 413 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: at a meeting that's all about like industry targets. That's 414 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: not about people actually having enough food to eat. So 415 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: that is like the quote itself is accurate, but I 416 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: think people apply it to the famine when it was 417 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: not really about the famine. And how clear are we 418 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: on how much he actually realized what was going on. 419 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: There is concrete evidence that he and the rest of 420 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: the Chinese Communist Party leadership were aware that people were 421 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: starming as early as n UM, but action was not 422 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: really taken. They so when we had our episodes about 423 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: the the Irish potato famine, we we told this story 424 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: of basically government in action. Like for a long time 425 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 1: everybody was like, yeah, the adult sort itself out, and 426 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: this was not that. It was more like, we just 427 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: have to stick to the plan and it will work 428 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: out if we just get over this hurdle, right, And 429 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: they thought it was a growing pain of the process 430 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: and not yeah, and that you know, maybe these augmentations 431 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: and substitutions would be enough to get them over this 432 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: and it it would it would work. I also found 433 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: reference in one place too, uh the Great Leap Forward 434 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: having implemented farming practices that were bad and planning crops 435 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: that were not compatible with each other in the same field. 436 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: I could not find any uh confirmation of that besides 437 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: this one source. So I don't know if that really happened, 438 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: but um, yeah, it was sort of they had this 439 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: stubborn insistence that this would really work and it was 440 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: the way to make China great because that was all 441 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: part of a plan to try to put China on 442 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: par with the UK in fifteen years and with the 443 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: United States and thirty so nobody wanted to back down 444 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: from it, which is devastating really. Yeah, Like these were 445 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: not evil people who wanted people to starve to death, 446 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: but they also were not They thought that was sort 447 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: of like a sacrificial period they were going to have 448 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: to get through to get to the amazing part. A 449 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: little misguided, uh, in less upsetting you have, I do 450 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: have listener mail. I also have a correction, but a 451 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: couple of people have written to us about in our 452 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: episode about the discovery of longitude. There's a shipwreck that 453 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 1: is very into that story. That shipwreck happened off the 454 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: aisles of Skilly, not the island of Sicily. Is my 455 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: reading comprehension error. I think that's a pretty common one. Yeah. Well, 456 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: and as I was like, I typed it in and 457 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: uh and Wikipedia came up and the very top of 458 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: Wikipedia is like not to be confused with, Like, oh yeah, 459 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: thanks Wikipedia, I was confused with um anyway, to reiterate, 460 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: we do not use Wikipedia as a source on this podcast. 461 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: I also have actual listener mail. It is from Brianna. 462 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: She says, Hi, Holly and Tracy. I've been listening to 463 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: your podcast for the last six months and you have 464 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: quickly become my favorite thing to listen to in the mornings. 465 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: Your podcast actually makes me look forward to my commute 466 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: each week, which is a small miracle. I'm writing in 467 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: response to your Battle of Blair Mountain episode. You talked 468 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: about company towns created by the mines in West Virginia, 469 00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: and I wanted to bring to your attention another company 470 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: town which many people have never heard of, Lanice City, Hawaii. 471 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: I was privileged to live on Lanai, a tiny island 472 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: next to Maui, Hawaii, for six months, and I fell 473 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: in love with the people in culture. Lanai is privately 474 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: owned and was once the world's largest pineapple plantation, owned 475 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: by James Dole until he sold it in nine When 476 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: I lived on the island, I heard from the people 477 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 1: there that Mr. Dole sent his foreman to the Philippines 478 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: in nineteen twelve to bring back uneducated Philipino Filipino men 479 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: to work on his plantation. He didn't want them to 480 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: read or write and organize against him. Ultimately, women were 481 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: allowed and families began to grow. Workers didn't own their homes, 482 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: used tokens to shop at the company owned store, and 483 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: had to deal with an abrupt change in lifestyle once 484 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: Dole moved their plantation, ironically to the Philippines. In I've 485 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: never been able to find any research on the island 486 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: to confirm what I heard from my friends there. In fact, 487 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: there's not not much written about it at all. I've 488 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: hope I've given you enough info to pique your interest. 489 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: I think Lena and the Dull Plantation would make for 490 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: a fantastic episode. This may be true, However, I will 491 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: confess that when listeners write to us and say I've 492 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: looked a lot for this information and I can't find it, 493 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: usually we can't find it either. Uh, we don't have 494 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: a magical portal. I wish we did. I mean we 495 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: we you know, we get paid to do this among 496 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: other of our jobs, so we can devote some extra time, 497 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: did you we And we're both I think fairly good at, 498 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: you know, ferreting out things that might be a little 499 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: bit difficult to locate. Well. Yeah, having a boyfriend who's 500 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: a librarian is also quite easy. Lord it over us. Um. 501 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: But yes, if you if it's hard for you to 502 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,239 Speaker 1: find much information, especially if you live there in the 503 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: midst of it. Uh, I mean that'd be so easy, 504 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: but you never know what will happen. Yeah. She goes 505 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: on to say that, um, it's the island has changed 506 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: hands a few times and now it's owned by Larry 507 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: Ellison of Oracle. I think the best way to research 508 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: this is to get on a plane and go to Hawaii. 509 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: I was thinking the best way to research it is 510 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: to go to Disney World and eat dull whip. That's 511 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: what I kept thinking about every time, because it's just Disneyland, 512 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: that's closer to Hawaii. Yeah, every time, she says, dull, 513 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: thank you very much Brandon for this letter. Uh. Maybe 514 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: we will manage to find some information. But I have 515 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: a feeling but if you have looked for information and 516 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: not found it, that we probably will not find it either, 517 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: which is you never know. Well, maybe we'll see if 518 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: you would like to write to us. We're a history 519 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: podcasts at how stuffworks dot com. 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You will find the depressing read 530 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: how Famine Works. You can also come to our website 531 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: you will find the show notes for this episode that 532 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: will include all of the sources that we used on it. 533 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: If you would like more details about specifics. There are 534 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,239 Speaker 1: a couple of books. Uh. There are at least two 535 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: books that I read on this list. There are three 536 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: books and four There are four books on this list 537 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: uh that you may be interested in. If you would 538 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,719 Speaker 1: like more detail about it, you can do that at 539 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: our website, which is missed in history dot com. Or 540 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: you can read about Tamin on how stuff works dot 541 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 542 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com