WEBVTT - We Testified for Impeachment and It Made No Difference 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:22.236 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:22.276 --> 0:00:25.476 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:26.036 --> 0:00:29.596 I'm Noah Feldman. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. 0:00:30.116 --> 0:00:32.436 If you've missed any of our earlier episodes, which used 0:00:32.476 --> 0:00:34.836 to be behind a paywall, you can now get them 0:00:34.876 --> 0:00:38.836 for free exactly where you found this one. A bit 0:00:38.836 --> 0:00:42.396 about me. I teach constitutional law at Harvard. I love 0:00:42.436 --> 0:00:46.476 a well tailored suit, and I had a pretty eventful 0:00:46.556 --> 0:00:49.796 winter break. Do you swear or affirm, under penalty of 0:00:49.836 --> 0:00:53.316 perjury that the testimony you're about to give is true 0:00:53.316 --> 0:00:56.156 and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief. 0:00:56.556 --> 0:00:59.396 So help you God. This past December, I was an 0:00:59.396 --> 0:01:02.556 expert witness called by the Democrats to testify at the 0:01:02.596 --> 0:01:06.756 impeachment inquiry and the House of Representatives into President Donald Trump. 0:01:07.356 --> 0:01:10.236 To be honest with you, it was extremely nerve racking. 0:01:10.676 --> 0:01:12.916 My job is to study and to teach the Constitution 0:01:13.036 --> 0:01:16.556 from its origins until the president. I'm here today to 0:01:16.676 --> 0:01:21.356 describe three things. Why the framers of our Constitution included 0:01:21.396 --> 0:01:24.796 a provision for the impeachment of the president. What that 0:01:24.876 --> 0:01:28.876 provision providing for impeachment for high crimes and misdemeanors means, 0:01:29.476 --> 0:01:32.676 and last, how it applies to the question before you 0:01:32.756 --> 0:01:35.956 and for the American people, whether President Trump has committed 0:01:35.996 --> 0:01:40.196 impeachable offenses under the Constitution. The other expert witnesses called 0:01:40.236 --> 0:01:43.636 by the Democrats were Pamela Carlin, a law professor at Stanford. 0:01:43.996 --> 0:01:48.516 When President Trump invited, indeed demanded, foreign involvement in our 0:01:48.596 --> 0:01:52.156 upcoming election, he struck at the very heart of what 0:01:52.356 --> 0:01:55.796 makes this a republic to which we pledge allegiance. And 0:01:55.956 --> 0:01:58.716 Michael Gerhart, a law professor at the University of North 0:01:58.716 --> 0:02:02.316 Carolina at Chapel Hill. If what we're talking about is 0:02:02.396 --> 0:02:06.956 not impeachable, then nothing is impeachable. I recently got the 0:02:07.036 --> 0:02:09.996 chance to talk to Michael Gerhart about that day and 0:02:10.196 --> 0:02:14.076 all that has happened since I was, unfortunately recovering from 0:02:14.076 --> 0:02:17.956 a slight cold. Michael, thank you so much for joining me. 0:02:18.356 --> 0:02:20.876 We've spoken on the phone, but we actually haven't seen 0:02:20.956 --> 0:02:25.276 each other since December fourth, when we both had the 0:02:25.356 --> 0:02:30.596 opportunity and maybe dubious honor of testifying at the House 0:02:30.676 --> 0:02:34.476 Judiciary Committees hearing on impeachment. How you've been doing since then? 0:02:35.436 --> 0:02:39.236 It's been busy teaching classes, and also trying to be 0:02:39.316 --> 0:02:41.956 part of the national conversation on a very important subject. 0:02:42.676 --> 0:02:44.076 What I would love for us to do in this 0:02:44.116 --> 0:02:48.876 conversation is open up for listeners some of the backstory 0:02:48.956 --> 0:02:52.196 and the back scenes of what we experienced that day, 0:02:52.716 --> 0:02:55.756 how we prepared for it, and also the sort of 0:02:55.796 --> 0:02:59.836 bigger picture of consequences of what's been going on. So 0:02:59.956 --> 0:03:02.196 maybe the way to start is I had never done 0:03:02.236 --> 0:03:04.396 this before, so it was all a surprise to me. 0:03:04.836 --> 0:03:08.756 But you had done this before twenty years previously, when 0:03:08.796 --> 0:03:10.876 they were a group of law professors, I think twenty 0:03:10.876 --> 0:03:14.116 one in total, who testified about Bill Clinton's impeachment to 0:03:14.156 --> 0:03:16.836 the House Judiciary Committee. And not only were you one 0:03:16.876 --> 0:03:19.356 of them, but you were also the only one who 0:03:19.396 --> 0:03:22.396 was jointly put forward by the Republicans and the Democrats. 0:03:22.796 --> 0:03:25.356 So take us back, if you will, twenty years and 0:03:25.436 --> 0:03:27.476 tell us how that happened. You know, nowadays it's almost 0:03:27.516 --> 0:03:30.036 inconceivable to imagine there being somebody who was acceptable to 0:03:30.076 --> 0:03:32.156 both sides. Well, twenty years seems a long time ago. 0:03:32.196 --> 0:03:35.356 It's going to seem even longer when we put together 0:03:35.436 --> 0:03:38.596 what was happening back then, it'll seem completely alien to us. 0:03:39.396 --> 0:03:42.476 So I had spent a fair bit of my academic 0:03:42.516 --> 0:03:46.236 career studying and writing about impeachment, also testifying and consulting 0:03:46.236 --> 0:03:48.796 with members of Congress. That was all known by the 0:03:48.836 --> 0:03:51.676 time we got to nineteen ninety eight, And there was 0:03:51.676 --> 0:03:53.916 a special moment for me in nineteen ninety eight when 0:03:54.156 --> 0:03:57.516 Jim Leech or Republican David Skaggs Democrat called me up 0:03:57.516 --> 0:03:58.836 on the phone and said, would you come talk to 0:03:58.916 --> 0:04:01.836 us in Washington? Generally, if members of Congress want to 0:04:01.876 --> 0:04:04.236 talk to me about something, I think that's a great honor. 0:04:04.356 --> 0:04:07.356 Night went and they said to me, well, what we'd 0:04:07.356 --> 0:04:08.996 like you to do after you talk to us right 0:04:09.196 --> 0:04:11.836 now is go speak to the entire House of Representatives. 0:04:12.436 --> 0:04:15.716 I didn't know that coming into that moment, and they 0:04:15.756 --> 0:04:18.316 had arranged like they wanted to speak to the House 0:04:18.396 --> 0:04:22.556 right then, Yes, right then. Um, so I thought, well, 0:04:22.716 --> 0:04:24.076 this is going to be a good test whether or 0:04:24.076 --> 0:04:26.836 not I know the subject matter. And so then we 0:04:26.876 --> 0:04:29.756 walked over to the House and I had to get 0:04:29.756 --> 0:04:32.236 special permission to walk onto the floor of the House 0:04:32.916 --> 0:04:35.876 and then behind closed doors with no staff, no press 0:04:35.956 --> 0:04:37.836 or anything. I then talked to the entire House of 0:04:37.916 --> 0:04:41.396 Representatives about impeachment. It's been about two hours doing it. 0:04:41.716 --> 0:04:45.956 No no cameras, nothing, nothing, just nothing. It was all 0:04:46.076 --> 0:04:47.556 Is there a written record of your coup? Don't think 0:04:47.556 --> 0:04:49.756 there's a written record. I think it was also amazing. 0:04:49.756 --> 0:04:52.076 You had a confidential conversation with four hundred and thirty 0:04:52.076 --> 0:04:54.596 five people. Hard to the biggest lecture of my life 0:04:54.676 --> 0:04:56.596 or one of the biggest lectures, but it was. I 0:04:56.916 --> 0:04:58.836 tried to design more as a conversation, and it was 0:04:58.836 --> 0:05:03.036 a very congenial, collegial conversation. At the end of it, 0:05:03.116 --> 0:05:05.956 Charles Kennedy, Republican, Bobby Scott, a Democrat who happened to 0:05:05.996 --> 0:05:08.676 be my representative, came up to me and said, well, 0:05:08.716 --> 0:05:10.516 if you have have a hearing on this, would you come, 0:05:10.836 --> 0:05:13.556 And I said, well, think sure, I'd be honored. And 0:05:13.596 --> 0:05:16.996 then that hearing to which you just alluded happened a 0:05:16.996 --> 0:05:19.076 few weeks later, where I was then brought in by 0:05:19.076 --> 0:05:23.076 both the Republicans and Democrats to testifize one of the experts, 0:05:23.276 --> 0:05:26.876 one of the many experts, including Alan Dershowitz, on the 0:05:26.956 --> 0:05:30.796 question of whether or not President Clinton's alleged misconduct rose 0:05:30.836 --> 0:05:33.316 to the level of being an impeachable offense and what 0:05:33.356 --> 0:05:38.916 did you say. What I talked about was basically the 0:05:38.996 --> 0:05:40.996 law of impeachment. I tried to kind of lay out 0:05:41.036 --> 0:05:43.516 the things we knew that I thought were clear, and 0:05:43.556 --> 0:05:46.396 then kind of talked about some things that maybe unsettled, 0:05:47.116 --> 0:05:48.836 and said, here's what we know about them. Here are 0:05:48.836 --> 0:05:51.796 the arguments on both sides, and kind of walked everybody 0:05:51.796 --> 0:05:54.076 through that and then got questions. But there was no 0:05:54.156 --> 0:05:56.476 personal attack. It was always very much you know, in 0:05:56.476 --> 0:05:58.676 this footnote you said this, but now today you're saying 0:05:58.716 --> 0:06:01.516 that fair I can try and answer that. Did they 0:06:01.516 --> 0:06:03.156 actually give you a chance to answer it? I say 0:06:03.196 --> 0:06:05.436 that in light of our experiences this time around. They 0:06:05.476 --> 0:06:07.316 asked a question and then they actually let you answer it. 0:06:07.316 --> 0:06:08.596 It's like, you know, as you said, it sounds like 0:06:08.596 --> 0:06:11.196 the Middle Age, that's right. Yeah, So when we had 0:06:11.236 --> 0:06:15.036 our hearing, there was no chance to answer it, or 0:06:15.076 --> 0:06:16.796 at least we were given maybe a second and then 0:06:16.836 --> 0:06:18.836 that was about it. But yes, they would then give 0:06:18.876 --> 0:06:22.596 me a chance to answer it, and they appeared to 0:06:22.636 --> 0:06:25.116 be listening, and it was really more of a conversation 0:06:26.036 --> 0:06:29.236 than twenty years later it would be. It's sort of 0:06:29.236 --> 0:06:31.396 fascinating on many levels, but one of the reasons it's 0:06:31.396 --> 0:06:35.356 so fascinating is that most people at the time identified 0:06:35.436 --> 0:06:38.116 the impeachment of Bill Clinton, that moment as a high 0:06:38.156 --> 0:06:41.516 point in partisanship, the most partisan moment that people could 0:06:41.516 --> 0:06:43.996 remember in the United States and more than a century. 0:06:44.436 --> 0:06:46.756 And I think that was actually a fair assessment in 0:06:46.876 --> 0:06:50.116 historical terms. And now twenty years later, it sounds almost 0:06:50.116 --> 0:06:54.916 like a model of bipartisan cordiality and collegiality, even if 0:06:54.956 --> 0:06:58.596 they voted along party lines. Let me ask you a question, Michael, So, 0:06:58.796 --> 0:07:00.916 the reason you found yourself in that extraordinary position in 0:07:00.916 --> 0:07:04.756 the Clinton impeachment is that you were and remain the 0:07:05.036 --> 0:07:07.796 leading expert law professor on the subject of impeachment. Your 0:07:08.196 --> 0:07:10.916 Guide to the Impeachment Process book, you know, has come 0:07:10.916 --> 0:07:13.836 out and I think three editions. Now, why in the world, 0:07:13.916 --> 0:07:16.676 as a young law professor did you get interested in 0:07:16.716 --> 0:07:19.836 the impeachment as the topic? It was not a hot topic, 0:07:20.316 --> 0:07:22.236 you know when they lated eighties, when you must have 0:07:22.276 --> 0:07:23.956 started diving into it, or the middle ladies, when you 0:07:23.996 --> 0:07:27.636 started diving into it. Why did you choose the subject? Well, 0:07:27.676 --> 0:07:31.076 that's a good question. I grew up Jewish and Alabama 0:07:31.116 --> 0:07:34.276 in the nineteen sixties that that a lot comes with that. 0:07:34.276 --> 0:07:39.076 That's a big sentence where in Alabama mobile Okay, got it, 0:07:39.436 --> 0:07:43.316 And so I was my entire childhood was sort of 0:07:43.316 --> 0:07:46.036 shaped and defined by the Civil Rights movement. At the 0:07:46.036 --> 0:07:48.796 tail end of that civil rights movement was of course Watergate. 0:07:49.356 --> 0:07:53.716 So like many people of my generation, I watched Watergate. 0:07:53.756 --> 0:07:56.836 I was kind of thought it was an incredible moment 0:07:56.876 --> 0:07:59.716 to see the Congress sort of investigating the president and 0:07:59.716 --> 0:08:03.236 eventually the president resigned, and that that stuck with me. 0:08:03.276 --> 0:08:05.676 That was something that I felt the Civil Rights movement 0:08:05.676 --> 0:08:07.796 and the Watergate had in common a respect for the 0:08:07.876 --> 0:08:10.716 rule of law. I had in common the idea that 0:08:10.756 --> 0:08:12.676 law could bring order to chaos, and so that was 0:08:12.796 --> 0:08:15.276 very appealing to me. I had an interest in the 0:08:15.356 --> 0:08:17.916 law as a result. And I think one thing that's 0:08:17.916 --> 0:08:20.596 common about impeachment and importance for me is there not 0:08:20.636 --> 0:08:22.796 just academic areas of interest. There are areas where I 0:08:22.836 --> 0:08:25.236 feel like, as a lawyer and law professor, I have 0:08:25.276 --> 0:08:28.396 a duty to try to speak truth to power and 0:08:28.436 --> 0:08:30.716 to be a part of the process which enriches my 0:08:30.796 --> 0:08:32.396 understanding and that I hope I can bring that to 0:08:32.436 --> 0:08:36.196 my students. So let's fast forward then to now. So 0:08:36.276 --> 0:08:38.636 When I got the call in November saying, you know, 0:08:39.276 --> 0:08:42.796 might you be open to testifying? I took a long, 0:08:42.876 --> 0:08:45.716 deep breath, I said yes. And the next thing I 0:08:45.716 --> 0:08:47.196 did as soon as I got off the phone is 0:08:47.236 --> 0:08:53.596 I dove into the books and I massively read every 0:08:53.716 --> 0:08:57.276 letter that I could find on impeachment. And I was 0:08:57.596 --> 0:09:01.396 the whole time struck by just how much ground I 0:09:01.436 --> 0:09:04.756 had to cover. Because although I teach constitutional law like 0:09:04.836 --> 0:09:09.316 you do, I added a constitutional law casebook, impeachment appears 0:09:09.356 --> 0:09:14.116 on like one page of a twenty five hundred page casebook. Now, 0:09:14.276 --> 0:09:16.836 you must have been in a completely different situation because 0:09:16.996 --> 0:09:19.756 you literally wrote the book. Well, I should say you're 0:09:19.756 --> 0:09:22.396 a wonderfully quick study, and of course you've mastered it 0:09:22.516 --> 0:09:25.876 very well. Um, I don't know how. I don't know 0:09:25.876 --> 0:09:28.316 how quick it was, but it was hard. Now, well, 0:09:28.476 --> 0:09:32.996 in constutional time, it was quick, Yeah, exactly. I got 0:09:32.996 --> 0:09:35.516 the call. Actually, I think my call came the morning 0:09:35.516 --> 0:09:38.796 of Thanksgiving. Um, you know, I knew this hearing was 0:09:38.836 --> 0:09:42.076 coming up. I didn't have any I just I knew 0:09:42.076 --> 0:09:43.556 it was going to be important hearing, But I didn't 0:09:43.596 --> 0:09:47.036 necessarily know or think that I would be any part 0:09:47.036 --> 0:09:49.076 of it. I still would be I would care about 0:09:49.116 --> 0:09:51.916 it deeply, so I was following it. But then I 0:09:51.956 --> 0:09:54.476 did get a call Thursday morning saying, Okay, would you 0:09:54.516 --> 0:09:58.636 be willing to come testify? And then once I realized, okay, 0:09:58.676 --> 0:10:00.996 I am going to do this, UM, I did a 0:10:01.036 --> 0:10:03.316 little bit of study, but a lot of what I 0:10:03.436 --> 0:10:05.236 tried to do was sort of sit back and think 0:10:05.276 --> 0:10:09.836 about what's important for people to know and tried to 0:10:09.876 --> 0:10:12.116 pull together what I thought would be a very helpful 0:10:12.236 --> 0:10:17.596 narrative on how impeachment applies to the current situation. And 0:10:17.636 --> 0:10:20.716 so that became my focus. And one thing the course 0:10:20.756 --> 0:10:24.236 that stood out for me was how one of the 0:10:24.276 --> 0:10:28.236 critical things we see even now it was apparent back then, 0:10:28.596 --> 0:10:31.036 but we hear this and everything the president's lawyer is saying. 0:10:31.236 --> 0:10:32.956 I think we see this and everything the president does, 0:10:33.316 --> 0:10:36.036 and that is that all of that has in common 0:10:36.196 --> 0:10:40.636 the effort to make the president a monarch, perhaps even 0:10:40.756 --> 0:10:42.716 one could go so far as to say a tyrant, 0:10:43.396 --> 0:10:46.316 and that is not consistent with our Constitution in any way, 0:10:46.316 --> 0:10:49.756 shape or form. So having come to that conclusion, which 0:10:49.796 --> 0:10:51.836 I don't think was a hard one to reach, I 0:10:51.956 --> 0:10:54.556 then sort of built a case around did you sense 0:10:54.596 --> 0:10:56.236 before going in, Did you know this was going to 0:10:56.276 --> 0:10:59.236 be the kind of partisan battle royale that it sort 0:10:59.236 --> 0:11:02.676 of turned into. And were you comfortable inwardly with the 0:11:02.756 --> 0:11:05.476 idea that you were going to be able to say, look, 0:11:06.116 --> 0:11:08.276 according to the facts as they've been released in the 0:11:08.316 --> 0:11:11.356 House or discover in the House, if they're true, then 0:11:11.716 --> 0:11:14.356 the president deserves to be impeached under the Constitution, which 0:11:14.396 --> 0:11:16.436 is obviously what we both did say. But were you 0:11:16.676 --> 0:11:19.236 did you have any trepidation about that? Well, it's a 0:11:19.236 --> 0:11:23.676 good question I had already once I realized I guess 0:11:23.676 --> 0:11:26.436 I was going to be there. One of the other 0:11:26.876 --> 0:11:29.996 first things that occurs to me is to understand the venue, 0:11:30.556 --> 0:11:33.596 to understand the forum. And I was fairly fortunate in 0:11:33.596 --> 0:11:36.036 that I already testified in front of the Judiciary Committee 0:11:36.036 --> 0:11:39.116 on July twelfth basically about the Mother Report. So at 0:11:39.116 --> 0:11:42.356 that hearing in July twelfth, people came at after me 0:11:42.476 --> 0:11:47.436 rather personally, and I somehow survived, And I knew that 0:11:47.636 --> 0:11:49.796 this other hearing was going to be even more vicious. 0:11:50.396 --> 0:11:55.116 So my instinct was in that circumstance to dial it down, 0:11:55.876 --> 0:11:58.596 not to kind of meet them at the same level 0:11:58.676 --> 0:12:02.796 of yelling and screaming and personal attacks, but to try 0:12:02.836 --> 0:12:07.036 and sort of lower the temperature and make sure that 0:12:07.076 --> 0:12:08.916 whatever I was saying, and of course you were doing 0:12:08.956 --> 0:12:11.196 this as well, but to make sure everything I was 0:12:11.236 --> 0:12:14.716 saying was firmly grounded in the law. So if you 0:12:14.876 --> 0:12:16.836 if you know what you're saying is firmly grounded in 0:12:16.956 --> 0:12:19.396 law and it's backed up, you can have a lot 0:12:19.396 --> 0:12:22.636 of confidence when people come at you and attack you 0:12:22.876 --> 0:12:25.356 because you know the facts and you know the law, 0:12:25.796 --> 0:12:29.076 and you can then move forward on that basis. If 0:12:29.116 --> 0:12:30.756 you don't have those things on your side, I think, 0:12:30.796 --> 0:12:33.556 like the White House laws currently, you make things up. 0:12:33.796 --> 0:12:36.316 You know, you engage in a lot of inconsistent statements. 0:12:37.236 --> 0:12:40.076 But I felt the law was on our side. Let's 0:12:40.076 --> 0:12:43.036 talk a little bit about style in the presentation, because 0:12:43.036 --> 0:12:47.036 as you said, you were extremely calm throughout. I would 0:12:47.036 --> 0:12:48.556 say you were the calmest of the three of us, 0:12:48.596 --> 0:12:52.276 you and me and Pam Carlin. Was that fully your plan? 0:12:52.396 --> 0:12:54.636 Because I have to say, as I walked into that 0:12:54.716 --> 0:12:56.796 room with all of the cameras, I mean, I knew 0:12:56.796 --> 0:12:58.196 the cameras would be there. I knew it would be 0:12:58.236 --> 0:13:01.716 surrounded by you know, photographers. I knew they would melt 0:13:01.756 --> 0:13:03.876 away like a magic curtain, and behind them would be 0:13:03.916 --> 0:13:06.796 a whole walls worth of Judiciary Committee members. So I 0:13:06.876 --> 0:13:09.516 knew it in theory, but I kept on thinking of 0:13:09.556 --> 0:13:13.596 that expression of Mike Tyson's where he said everyone has 0:13:13.596 --> 0:13:16.516 a plan until they get punched in the face. And 0:13:16.676 --> 0:13:18.036 you know, that's sort of what it felt like to me. 0:13:18.436 --> 0:13:21.836 I walked in there with a plan, and I then 0:13:21.996 --> 0:13:24.396 felt just by the reality of it, it was like 0:13:24.476 --> 0:13:26.756 a punch in the face. And then I'm more or 0:13:26.836 --> 0:13:30.236 less adapted on the fly, and I think I changed 0:13:30.756 --> 0:13:34.196 the tone of my presentation and the tone of my 0:13:34.276 --> 0:13:39.516 answers based on the energy in the room. And I 0:13:39.556 --> 0:13:44.476 think I had the inward experience of feeling, Okay, you're 0:13:44.516 --> 0:13:47.756 about to open your mouth and say in substance that 0:13:47.836 --> 0:13:50.356 the presence of the United States is guilty of high 0:13:50.396 --> 0:13:54.516 crimes and misdemeanors. And logically speaking, although it's the choice 0:13:54.556 --> 0:13:57.636 of the House ought to be impeached, that's really a 0:13:57.636 --> 0:14:02.476 big deal. And it's not a time for half measures. 0:14:02.516 --> 0:14:05.196 It's not a time to say it as a on 0:14:05.236 --> 0:14:06.996 the one hand, or on the other hand, I think 0:14:07.036 --> 0:14:09.756 if I thought to myself, if I don't say it, definitively, 0:14:10.316 --> 0:14:13.436 clearly and bluntly, and again and again and again, the 0:14:13.516 --> 0:14:15.756 message really might not get through. And I don't think 0:14:15.836 --> 0:14:19.196 I really got that until I was sitting in the chair. 0:14:20.156 --> 0:14:22.196 Were you able to more or less? Was the strategy 0:14:22.196 --> 0:14:24.676 that you followed, the kind of the calm, rational one. 0:14:25.756 --> 0:14:27.716 Was that a strategy that that was the one you 0:14:27.756 --> 0:14:33.956 had going in. I'm not sure I had a well 0:14:34.036 --> 0:14:37.196 defined strategy going in other than kind of what I've said, 0:14:37.276 --> 0:14:40.636 other than I guess what is my typical temperament and disposition. 0:14:41.796 --> 0:14:46.156 And so what I felt at the time was I've 0:14:46.196 --> 0:14:49.196 got to get a feel for this room so very 0:14:49.236 --> 0:14:53.196 much like what you were saying, and that would help 0:14:53.316 --> 0:14:56.516 you know you know this very well. I think one 0:14:56.756 --> 0:14:59.596 problem for a lot of lawyers, particularly young lawyers, is 0:14:59.756 --> 0:15:03.116 they don't think about the forum. They don't think about 0:15:03.196 --> 0:15:05.716 the venue. They would argue the same way in a 0:15:05.876 --> 0:15:08.636 trial quarter as they would in congress or somewhere else. 0:15:09.556 --> 0:15:11.796 That's not a good move. You've got to be aware 0:15:11.796 --> 0:15:14.476 of who's listening, and you've got to be aware of 0:15:14.476 --> 0:15:17.796 your audience. And so part of what I was I 0:15:17.836 --> 0:15:19.276 felt I had to do was, Okay, I got to 0:15:19.316 --> 0:15:21.916 get a feel for that so many respects. The hardest 0:15:21.996 --> 0:15:25.516 moment is that first minute. Thank you, mister Chairman, ranking member, 0:15:25.596 --> 0:15:28.636 or other distinguished members of the committee. It's an honor 0:15:28.636 --> 0:15:31.756 and a privilege to join the other distinguished witnesses to 0:15:31.796 --> 0:15:35.476 discuss a matter of grave concern to our country and 0:15:35.516 --> 0:15:39.996 to our constitution. Because this House, the People's House, has 0:15:39.996 --> 0:15:43.196 the sole power of impeachment. There is no better forum 0:15:43.596 --> 0:15:46.796 to discuss the constitutional standard for impeachment and whether that 0:15:46.916 --> 0:15:49.156 standard has been met in the case of the current 0:15:49.196 --> 0:15:52.636 President of the United States. Where you're finding your voice 0:15:52.676 --> 0:15:54.556 and where you're trying to figure out what's the right tone. 0:15:55.196 --> 0:15:56.956 How do I play this room, so to speak. I 0:15:56.956 --> 0:15:59.356 don't want to diminish it by saying that, but I 0:15:59.436 --> 0:16:03.156 have to perform in these conditions, not academic conditions or 0:16:03.236 --> 0:16:07.436 something else. And so I once I got that feel, 0:16:07.476 --> 0:16:10.116 and I did have the benefit of following both you 0:16:10.156 --> 0:16:13.316 and Pam, so I was able to kind of studying 0:16:13.516 --> 0:16:15.516 and not just hear what y'all were saying, but also 0:16:15.996 --> 0:16:19.636 study the circumstances, which in some respects made me calmer 0:16:20.236 --> 0:16:23.316 because I felt I had a better grasp on the conditions. 0:16:23.356 --> 0:16:26.356 And then I kind of tailored my remarks. Accordingly, that's 0:16:26.356 --> 0:16:29.476 a great observation and it helps me to explain something 0:16:29.476 --> 0:16:32.356 that I was feeling before I started speaking, which was 0:16:32.476 --> 0:16:35.116 since I was the first witness, I had no idea 0:16:35.196 --> 0:16:36.636 what the tone in the room was. I mean, the 0:16:36.676 --> 0:16:39.436 Chairman Gerald, now they're set to start speaking. Professor Feldon, 0:16:39.556 --> 0:16:43.756 you may begin, and immediately the ranking Republican Doug cons 0:16:43.836 --> 0:16:46.396 interrupted me. Mister chairman before we get the chairman and 0:16:46.436 --> 0:16:49.436 members of the committee, mister Chairman have emotion. So that 0:16:49.556 --> 0:16:52.956 was already, you know, weird, and I wasn't clear on 0:16:52.956 --> 0:16:54.916 whether I should continue speaking or stop speaking, so I 0:16:54.996 --> 0:16:57.876 sort of stopped and then I started again. Mister Chairman 0:16:57.916 --> 0:17:00.036 and members of the committee, thank you very much for 0:17:00.076 --> 0:17:05.476 the opportunity to appear. And in my head, the blood 0:17:05.516 --> 0:17:08.476 was rushing and my heart was pounding, and I was 0:17:08.516 --> 0:17:12.716 just thinking to myself, I really don't want to sound nervous, 0:17:13.156 --> 0:17:16.356 and actually, at the end of my prepared statement, I 0:17:16.476 --> 0:17:19.076 thought to myself, well, Noah, you must have sounded very, 0:17:19.196 --> 0:17:22.396 very nervous. On the basis of the testimony and the 0:17:22.436 --> 0:17:27.156 evidence before the House, President Trump has committed impeachable high 0:17:27.196 --> 0:17:32.116 crimes and misdemeanors by corruptly abusing the office of the presidency. 0:17:32.396 --> 0:17:34.436 And it was only when I went back and watched 0:17:34.476 --> 0:17:38.516 myself on videotape that I realized that. Luckily, by trying 0:17:38.516 --> 0:17:41.996 to be forceful, I think I suppressed the shakiness in 0:17:42.036 --> 0:17:44.996 my voice and the you know, and the pounding heart, 0:17:44.996 --> 0:17:47.156 and I think maybe I almost had to be forceful 0:17:47.276 --> 0:17:50.116 in order to mask the fact that, you know, there 0:17:50.156 --> 0:17:52.356 was something nerve wracking about being the first one. I 0:17:52.396 --> 0:17:54.076 felt like I was speaking into the void. And I 0:17:54.116 --> 0:17:56.276 don't think I really understood why that was so painful, 0:17:56.556 --> 0:17:58.276 or not painful it is the wrong word, but why 0:17:58.276 --> 0:18:00.996 it was so challenging until you just talked about getting 0:18:00.996 --> 0:18:02.196 the feel of the room. It's hard to get the 0:18:02.196 --> 0:18:03.556 feel of the room when you're supposed to be the 0:18:03.596 --> 0:18:07.956 first person to talk. So that brings us to the 0:18:07.996 --> 0:18:10.996 public's reaction, which we didn't know when we were in 0:18:11.036 --> 0:18:14.676 the room, thank goodness, but which we discovered pretty clearly 0:18:14.716 --> 0:18:18.196 when we came out and turned on our phones. I mean, 0:18:18.236 --> 0:18:21.516 for me, a really dramatic moment was when we left 0:18:21.556 --> 0:18:23.756 at the very end of the day, this long, grueling day, 0:18:23.836 --> 0:18:26.436 nine plus hours. I think we were in there and 0:18:26.796 --> 0:18:29.596 someone from the Sergeant at Arms Office of the House 0:18:29.676 --> 0:18:33.396 was there to meet us in the witness room and said, Pam, 0:18:33.436 --> 0:18:34.916 you know, I hate to tell you this, but you're 0:18:34.956 --> 0:18:39.436 getting death threats. And you know, that was pretty shocking moment, 0:18:39.876 --> 0:18:42.756 certainly for me to hear, and I imagine for Pam 0:18:42.756 --> 0:18:45.356 as well, and it didn't really let up. Now. I 0:18:45.396 --> 0:18:49.276 think Pam unquestionably got the worst of it. I think 0:18:49.276 --> 0:18:52.116 a large part of that is good old fashioned misogyny. 0:18:52.156 --> 0:18:54.556 I think, you know, a woman taking on the president 0:18:54.596 --> 0:18:56.156 of the the United States is going to just get more 0:18:56.676 --> 0:19:01.836 and deeper negativity than men are. She also got, as 0:19:01.956 --> 0:19:04.476 I got, and as you got, a huge amount of 0:19:04.476 --> 0:19:07.916 negative commentary. I should say, I think I got about 0:19:07.956 --> 0:19:10.196 as much positive as negative. You know, huge numbers of 0:19:10.196 --> 0:19:12.996 people's coming out of the woodwork. You know, I knew 0:19:12.996 --> 0:19:14.636 you in summer camp. Thank you for your service to 0:19:14.676 --> 0:19:17.796 the country. Strangers writing that, lots of very uplifting stuff, 0:19:18.116 --> 0:19:21.956 but also a really strong thread of pretty vicious negativity. 0:19:22.396 --> 0:19:24.716 And at least in my instance, and we should talk 0:19:24.756 --> 0:19:27.236 about whether you had this experience too, A lot of 0:19:27.276 --> 0:19:29.276 it was anti semitic. A lot of the negative stuff 0:19:29.276 --> 0:19:33.636 was anti semitic. I'm wondering first of all, was that 0:19:33.836 --> 0:19:35.636 was that your experience? And then we should talk about 0:19:35.716 --> 0:19:42.156 how it felt that was mostly my experience. I mean, 0:19:42.156 --> 0:19:44.836 I guess the first thing I should mention is for me, 0:19:45.156 --> 0:19:50.116 the hate mail hugely outnumbered anything else it was. It 0:19:50.196 --> 0:19:52.276 may have been not just ten to one, it could 0:19:52.276 --> 0:19:53.916 be more. I think it's more like one hundred and one. 0:19:55.316 --> 0:19:57.756 I expected some of that. I don't know that I 0:19:57.796 --> 0:20:00.996 could expected, you know, the volume of it, and it 0:20:01.036 --> 0:20:03.236 was exactly the kind of vituol you described. It was 0:20:03.396 --> 0:20:08.916 very hateful, lots cursing, lots of profanity, and lots of 0:20:09.156 --> 0:20:12.076 declarations that you know you don't know X and you 0:20:12.076 --> 0:20:15.716 know you should be fired. And and yes, a lot 0:20:15.796 --> 0:20:20.276 of it was anti Semitic, and so that that was 0:20:20.356 --> 0:20:23.196 like a tidal way. And I got some very nice 0:20:23.636 --> 0:20:27.436 emails and even letters. And one thing that's very striking 0:20:27.476 --> 0:20:30.556 and actually very meaningful for me is that I heard 0:20:30.556 --> 0:20:33.036 from a lot of people that I grew up within 0:20:33.116 --> 0:20:36.676 forty years ago in Alabama, and they were very nice, 0:20:37.716 --> 0:20:41.956 remarkably kind, and very thoughtful, and that was I don't 0:20:41.996 --> 0:20:44.596 know that I expected. It was very nice. I think 0:20:44.676 --> 0:20:48.556 the level of anti semitism was more extreme this time 0:20:48.556 --> 0:20:51.196 than I've ever experienced it in this setting. I mean, 0:20:51.236 --> 0:20:53.316 obviously when I grew up, I experienced it a great deal. 0:20:53.436 --> 0:20:55.636 Well you say something about that, you say, you say obviously, 0:20:55.716 --> 0:20:58.556 But I think a lot of people, especially you know, 0:20:58.636 --> 0:21:01.836 let's say our kids age, don't really know what it 0:21:01.876 --> 0:21:04.756 would have been like to be a Jewish kid in Mobile, 0:21:04.876 --> 0:21:08.236 Alabama when you were growing up in the sixties and 0:21:08.396 --> 0:21:12.476 early SEVENTIESE what what was that like? I mean, how 0:21:12.476 --> 0:21:15.156