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Speaker 1: O La Latino USA listener, it's Maria no Josa. We

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Speaker 1: just turned the corner from the midterms. But here's something

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Speaker 1: we started talking about long before the election, and that

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Speaker 1: I'm afraid we'll be talking about for a lot longer.

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Speaker 1: The criminalization of voting. Our colleagues at the investigative podcast

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Speaker 1: Reveal went to Arizona, where as is the case in

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Speaker 1: a number of other states, dropping off someone else's early

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Speaker 1: ballot is a crime. The Reveal investigation found that states

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Speaker 1: are actually spending more and more money and dedicating more

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Speaker 1: and more resources to fighting voter fraud, which is virtually nonexistent,

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Speaker 1: at least in our democracy. So today we're bringing you

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Speaker 1: Reveals episode The Ballot Boogeyman, where you're going to hear

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Speaker 1: about a new rash of laws and agencies criminalizing and

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Speaker 1: prosecuting what they can do coiter our election offenses. It

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Speaker 1: should give you a sense of what's to come ahead

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Speaker 1: in the general elections of twenty twenty four. If you're

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Speaker 1: interested in more investigative stories, subscribe to Reveal from the

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Speaker 1: Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the Ballot Boogeyman.

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Speaker 2: From the Center for Investigative Reporting in PRX. This is revealed.

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Speaker 2: I'm Al Letson. We're in San Luis, Arizona, a small

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Speaker 2: city along the Mexico border. It's another hot September day

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Speaker 2: when a woman named Germina Fuentes gets a knock on

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Speaker 2: the door.

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Speaker 3: Who the point is Sergeant Hempstreet with the Sheriff's office.

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Speaker 3: I spoke to you on the phone earlier and a

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Speaker 3: few weeks ago.

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Speaker 2: It's about a month after the twenty twenty primary elections.

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Speaker 3: I'm still working on my investigation with the attorney John

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Speaker 3: Old office.

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Speaker 2: He's here to get Gearmina's fingerprints.

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Speaker 3: Some exclusionary prints from here. Okay, fingerprints.

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Speaker 2: The request surprises.

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Speaker 3: You need to exclude them from one that I found

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Speaker 3: on ballots.

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Speaker 2: It turns out investigators have fingerprinted all the ballots in

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Speaker 2: one entire drop box and they want to compare them

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Speaker 2: to Gearmina's.

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Speaker 4: Okay, what is it that I mean?

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Speaker 3: You're just one person in a long list of people

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Speaker 3: that I'm currently investigating.

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Speaker 2: Gearmina is being investigated for illegal ballot collecting.

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Speaker 3: Wants to search warrant so we can either do it

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Speaker 3: here or I have to take you to the jail

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Speaker 3: to get there.

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Speaker 5: Oh my.

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Speaker 2: Ballot collecting became a crime in Arizona in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 2: It means handling or dropping off an absentee ballot that

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Speaker 2: isn't yours. Now, there are some exceptions for family, housemates

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Speaker 2: and caregivers, But say you are heading to a polling

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Speaker 2: place and your neighbor asked you to drop off their ballot.

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Speaker 2: If you did it in Arizona, you could face a

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Speaker 2: felony charge. Girmina would become the first person prosecuted under

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Speaker 2: this twenty sixteen law for handling four ballots that were

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Speaker 2: not hers. Arizona is on the leading edge of a

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Speaker 2: wave of laws criminalizing what, in many places is typical

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Speaker 2: voter behavior. What's considered illegal ballot collecting there is legal

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Speaker 2: in most states.

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Speaker 1: This judge is about to sentence Karemina, and I frankly

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Speaker 1: don't want to see if her get a slap on

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Speaker 1: the wrist.

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Speaker 2: Stop the steal. Politicians and political hopefuls like Arizona governor

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Speaker 2: candidate Carrie Lake have made an example of Germina's case.

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Speaker 6: I think minimum she should be locked up until after

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Speaker 6: this election.

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Speaker 7: We don't want more cheating.

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Speaker 2: The state has asked the judge to sentence Germina Fuentez

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Speaker 2: to a year in prison for handling those four ballots.

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Speaker 2: Reveals esa Olu Messe wanted to learn more about the case,

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Speaker 2: so she headed to San Luis.

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Speaker 8: I'm standing outside of Baptist church on the west side

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Speaker 8: of San Luis.

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Speaker 2: Yea, yes, here's one.

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Speaker 8: Pastor Manuel Castro is trying to find us some chairs.

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Speaker 7: I'm here to talk with him about Guerirmina San Luisa.

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Speaker 8: The most popular things in San Luis, Arizona are beans

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Speaker 8: and Guillarmina.

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Speaker 7: He says.

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Speaker 8: Everyone knows Guerminaaa.

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Speaker 2: See.

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Speaker 8: Pastor Manuel has known her for most of the thirty

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Speaker 8: three years he's been in San Luis. He says, Guharmina

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Speaker 8: has a positive reputation as a very active woman who

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Speaker 8: helps a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: From Tiva.

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Speaker 9: They are Yodaa, munchaente so testimonials, mupovo mulpo.

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Speaker 8: Guermina's lawyers wouldn't let me interview her because the case

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Speaker 8: was ongoing when I got to San Luis, but I

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Speaker 8: spoke to a lot of people who know her well.

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Speaker 8: The sixty six year old has lived here almost her

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Speaker 8: entire life. She emigrated to San Luis from Mexico when

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Speaker 8: she was a kid. Germina worked in the fields as

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Speaker 8: a teenager and went on to become a paralegal helping

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Speaker 8: other farm workers through a local legal aid group that

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Speaker 8: will kickstart her decades on career in politics. She's been

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Speaker 8: San Luis's mayor, a member of its city council, and

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Speaker 8: most recently, she was on the local school board. That

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Speaker 8: is until last summer.

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Speaker 10: The Gadsden Elementary School District is now looking for a

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Speaker 10: new board member since former San Luis Mayor Germina Fuentes

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Speaker 10: had to give up her seat after pleading guilty to

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Speaker 10: ballot harvesting in the.

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Speaker 8: Ballad abuse case against Guermina. State prosecutors are not only

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Speaker 8: asking that Gharamina face up to a year in prison, but.

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Speaker 10: Under the plea agreement, Fuantees agrees to lose her voting

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Speaker 10: rights and not hold an elected office.

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Speaker 9: And toss Guando guando ali goes us Buenas.

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Speaker 8: Pastor Manuel says, when someone does good things, much when

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Speaker 8: they make a lot of noise with those good deeds

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Speaker 8: is the it can make other people's ears hurt. Antoss

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Speaker 8: and b the s it can create enemies an envy.

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Speaker 8: The investigation into Guharamina all started with the cell phone

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Speaker 8: video it was secretly recorded of her on primary election day,

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Speaker 8: August fourth. The video is being recorded from inside a car.

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Speaker 8: It shows Gharmina and a couple other volunteers standing around

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Speaker 8: a campaign table right outside a designated polling place in

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Speaker 8: San Luis. A woman named Alma Warez, who is also

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Speaker 8: by the campaign table, appears to hand a ballot to Ghermina.

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Speaker 8: It's hard to tell because what's happening is in front

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Speaker 8: of Geharmina and the camera.

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Speaker 7: Is filming from behind her.

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Speaker 8: Geharmina appears to look over the ballot and seems to

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Speaker 8: write something on it before sealing it. She then reaches

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Speaker 8: into a folder to her right and pulls out what

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Speaker 8: looks like a few more ballots. She stacks them and

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Speaker 8: hands them to Almah, who walks off screen toward the

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Speaker 8: ballot box. Geharmina is ultimately charged with handling four ballots,

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Speaker 8: and that small stack of ballots would become the center

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Speaker 8: of a sprawling investigation by the state's Republican attorney general,

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Speaker 8: who was being pressured by others in his party to

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Speaker 8: crack down unperceived election crimes. Investigators interviewed Gearmina multiple times

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Speaker 8: before she was charged. Those conversations were recorded on body

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Speaker 8: cameras worn by sheriff's deputies. In those videos, Gearmina says

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Speaker 8: San Luis has historically low voter turnout and all she

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Speaker 8: was trying to do was help people cast their ballots.

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Speaker 4: They never never ever vote, and I said, you have

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Speaker 4: to vote, you have to vote. We don't even know

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Speaker 4: who to vote for. And I said, you have to

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Speaker 4: be informed, you.

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Speaker 11: Have to know.

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Speaker 7: You have to listen.

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Speaker 4: So I educate them.

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Speaker 3: I've been listening a little bit, and it sounds like

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Speaker 3: you're very involved in the community, very involved, and you

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Speaker 3: help people.

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Speaker 12: It sounds like you're informing them and helping them with things.

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Speaker 13: And I have done my job because this sign was

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Speaker 13: the first time on a presidential election that the people

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Speaker 13: of San Luis we have like a wow, six thousand

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Speaker 13: people body. We are a community of over thirty but

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Speaker 13: this time was six thousands. That's very good.

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Speaker 4: And they both themselves.

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Speaker 8: They vote themselves. San Luis does not have home delivery

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Speaker 8: mail service to send or receive mail. The more than

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Speaker 8: thirty thousand residents of the city have to either go

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Speaker 8: to the post office or have someone else do that

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Speaker 8: for them. Gharmina's legal team has argued that helping friends

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Speaker 8: and neighbors by delivering their absentee ballots to drop boxes

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Speaker 8: and poling places is a long standing tradition, but Arizona

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Speaker 8: Attorney General Mark Gronovich doesn't see it that way. His

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Speaker 8: office declined to answer questions on the case or comment

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Speaker 8: on this story, but in court documents, prosecutors have said

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Speaker 8: that they're trying to send a quote strong message with

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Speaker 8: Gharmina's case because they believe she abused her position in

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Speaker 8: the community. State investigators compared Gearmina's fingerprints to every ballot

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Speaker 8: in the dropbox. They even sent her prints to the

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Speaker 8: FBI to be analyzed at its Quantico headquarters. Now investigators

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Speaker 8: never found a match, but they still had the video

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Speaker 8: so they could charge Gharmina and her co defendant Alma

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Speaker 8: with ballot abuse. The two women didn't do anything fraudulent.

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Speaker 8: The ballots they handled were legal votes, and they counted

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Speaker 8: in the twenty twenty primary election. But it was Arizona's

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Speaker 8: twenty sixteen law that made it illegal for them to

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Speaker 8: even handle those ballots. Both women pleaded guilty. Alma took

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Speaker 8: a deal that reduced her charge to a misdemeanor. Gharmina's

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Speaker 8: charge state of felony.

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Speaker 14: The whole crew essayis Marquez has to meet you.

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Speaker 8: I met Luis Marquez at the polling place where that

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Speaker 8: video of Gharmina was taken.

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Speaker 14: Right about with the orange benches are about in the area.

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Speaker 14: That's where she was. I guess somebody put a hidden

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Speaker 14: the camera right across from her. Some of day they

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Speaker 14: had a hidden camera.

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Speaker 8: Louis met Guiarmina when they were kids working in the fields.

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Speaker 8: He was thirteen and she was sixteen. She's one of

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Speaker 8: Luis's oldest friends, so he really wanted to talk about

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Speaker 8: her case.

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Speaker 3: My wife.

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Speaker 14: My wife said, don't you talk more than what you

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Speaker 14: have to? And I said, well, you know, I can't

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Speaker 14: promise you anything because I'm a talker.

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Speaker 8: Louis is a retired San Louis police officer and also

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Speaker 8: served on the local elementary school board with Gairmina. When

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Speaker 8: he first heard on the news which he was being

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Speaker 8: charged with, he thought.

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Speaker 2: It's a joke.

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Speaker 14: It's a joke.

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Speaker 15: It's a joke.

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Speaker 8: It was easy to believe that someone had made a mistake,

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Speaker 8: until Louise heard that sheriff's deputies and investigators with the

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Speaker 8: AG's office were knocking on doors interviewing dozens of San

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Speaker 8: Luis residents.

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Speaker 16: Well sheriff office, Well, so did not.

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Speaker 3: Fit with the Sheriff's office.

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Speaker 12: Did you vote in the August primary?

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Speaker 8: Watch?

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Speaker 2: So you voted in.

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Speaker 3: The primary election that happened in August?

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Speaker 17: Yeah, somebody them get it from you?

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Speaker 5: They did?

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Speaker 7: Yeah? Am I to understanding?

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Speaker 18: Who?

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Speaker 19: This a lot of an early ballad on August four?

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Speaker 19: And did you drop that ballot off from mail day?

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Speaker 19: Thank you very much. I appreciate it one not at all,

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Speaker 19: not at all.

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Speaker 3: I'm just making sure everybody's vote actually gets counted. That's

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Speaker 3: all I had. Do you have any questions for me?

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Speaker 19: Scared?

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Speaker 3: Understood?

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Speaker 14: People kind of scared of them, you know, they were

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Speaker 14: not They kind of felt intimidated. They kind of felt

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Speaker 14: like forraz.

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Speaker 8: Louis says, for years, election time in San Luis was

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Speaker 8: like a big party. There would be people playing music,

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Speaker 8: grill and carne asada. It was a whole thing. Now,

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Speaker 8: he says, it feels like a ghost town.

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Speaker 14: You know, every time you talk about a ballot it's

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Speaker 14: got like people are like, oh, it's gonna get get

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Speaker 14: nervous about it because you know it's funny. Someone will

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Speaker 14: make fun like say you put it what child? There's

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Speaker 14: the camera there, which other is another camera there? Don't

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Speaker 14: don't say this, don't say that. You know it's it's sad.

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Speaker 8: Luis worries that fewer people will come out to vote

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Speaker 8: because they're afraid someone's watching them and could catch them

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Speaker 8: making a mistake.

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Speaker 7: People like David Lada.

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Speaker 6: Elections decide everything. Elections decide if you go to war,

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Speaker 6: election slide, social security, taxes, abortion, Supreme Court justices. Elections

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Speaker 6: decide everything for us. It should not be tinkered with,

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Speaker 6: manipulated coerce in any way either.

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Speaker 8: Or David is the reason that secretly recorded video of

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Speaker 8: Garmina exists in the first place. David has known Gearmina

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Speaker 8: for a long time, and from my first phone call

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Speaker 8: with him, it was clear he's not a fan.

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Speaker 6: She's not a nice person. She's pretty vulgar and crude

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Speaker 6: in her manner speaking. She can be very disrespectful, and

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Speaker 6: she's basically a bully and intimidates people.

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Speaker 8: It's not just that he doesn't like Gearmina, he thinks

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Speaker 8: she's an operator in what he calls a ballot trafficking cartel.

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Speaker 6: A chappouseman. He was never caught Lanny drugs, okay, but

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Speaker 6: he was a kingpin. He was a big mover and shaker.

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Speaker 6: This is the same thing she would. It's like nickel

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Speaker 6: and diming ballots that at the end is part of

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Speaker 6: the ant trail to the big load.

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Speaker 8: David says, the four ballots that led to Gharmina's conviction,

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Speaker 8: we're a drop in the bucket, just one of the

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Speaker 8: many arms of the massive voter farud conspiracy he believes

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Speaker 8: took place in San Luis during the twenty twenty election.

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Speaker 8: When I was in San Luis, I met David at

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Speaker 8: a mostly empty Mexican restaurant near his office. He runs

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Speaker 8: a water and I supply business. David is fifty seven

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Speaker 8: years old with the salt and pepper goatee. He's a

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Speaker 8: Republican and serves on the board of the Yuman Union

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Speaker 8: High School District. And he says, for the last twenty

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Speaker 8: two years he's made it his mission to try to expose.

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Speaker 6: Voter fraud on election day.

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Speaker 2: That's where the fraud is.

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Speaker 6: For many years, wide open I mean, you could see

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Speaker 6: ballot handling, trafficking, exchanging, manipulation, trading all day. And I

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Speaker 6: filed many complaints every election for many years, and I

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Speaker 6: could just not I mean, they will slip through my fingers.

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Speaker 8: But after more than two decades, the twenty twenty election

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Speaker 8: was the first time David's complaints led to criminal charges.

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Speaker 8: On that day, he told his friend and city council

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Speaker 8: candidate Gary Snyder, another Republican, to document what he saw

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Speaker 8: outside the polling place where Guermina was.

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Speaker 6: So, I told Gary, you are going to witness fraud

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Speaker 6: like you've never believed before.

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Speaker 2: But I'm going to disappear.

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Speaker 6: I'm going to pull away because these people know me well,

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Speaker 6: and if I'm around you know.

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Speaker 2: They're careful.

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Speaker 6: You're the newbie, So they're going to drop their guard

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Speaker 6: and just take as many pictures and videos as you can.

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Speaker 8: Gary didn't agree to be interviewed, but David says, Gary

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Speaker 8: sent him a bunch of videos, which you quickly shared

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Speaker 8: with the local election official, who then sent them to

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Speaker 8: Shriff lee On Wilmot's office, and almost immediately, Arizona's Attorney

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Speaker 8: General's office picked up the investigation. A few months later,

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Speaker 8: After the door knocking, the interviews, and the fingerprinting, state

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Speaker 8: prosecutors charged Garmina with ballot abuse for turning in ballots

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Speaker 8: that didn't belong to her.

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Speaker 6: I mean, if it was up to me, voter fraud

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Speaker 6: should be death penalty because people should not mess when

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Speaker 6: they vote. That is sacred to me.

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Speaker 8: So you think that those who commit voter fraud should

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Speaker 8: get the death penalty?

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Speaker 6: And yeah, And it is a stretch because I'm trying

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Speaker 6: to make a point that it's that series.

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Speaker 8: In the case that we're describing the funtest case. Do

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Speaker 8: you think that would be inappropriate?

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Speaker 7: Like what to you would be justice.

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Speaker 6: I'm not saying the sener to the electric chair.

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Speaker 20: You know.

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Speaker 6: I exaggerated that point just just to make that point

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Speaker 6: that it is very, very to me sacred.

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Speaker 2: What do I think she should get?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: One year.

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Speaker 8: Geharmina's case has thrust both David and Gary into right

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Speaker 8: wing stardom, Gary for recording gear Miina and David for

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Speaker 8: turning her in. Gary is currently running for a state

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Speaker 8: senate campaigning on claims that he's exposed a ring of

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Speaker 8: ballot harvesters, and earlier this year he reportedly ran for

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Speaker 8: the school board seat that Gearmina had to give up

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Speaker 8: after she pleaded guilty. And for David's part, he's had

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Speaker 8: his own political aspirations even before Gearmina was charged.

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Speaker 6: I ran for city council numerous times. I ran for

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Speaker 6: mayor numerous times. I ran for supervisor numerous times, and

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Speaker 6: I ran for constable once. Okay, oh, I was every

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Speaker 6: two years, I was, I was losing an election. Now

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Speaker 6: I was interested, but I knew I was not gonna win.

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Speaker 7: And you claim you knew you like you didn't win

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Speaker 7: because of voter front.

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Speaker 8: But when my producer, Nadyaheim dhan as for proof, he

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Speaker 8: couldn't produce any. David has pledged to keep surveiling polling places.

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Speaker 8: Both he and Gary have promised these charges won't stop

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Speaker 8: with gear Mina.

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Speaker 17: It hasn't been charged before.

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Speaker 8: This is Assistant Attorney General of Arizona Todd Lawson.

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Speaker 7: At a hearing in October.

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Speaker 8: It was the last chance for both sides to make

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Speaker 8: their case before sentencing. The courtroom is packed with Gearina's supporters,

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Speaker 8: including Luis, who testified on her behalf. David and Gary

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Speaker 8: are also there. The hearing lasts over two hours, and

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Speaker 8: why is done with closing arguments.

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Speaker 7: Here's Todd Lawson again, this.

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Speaker 17: Is a public integrity issue that is broader than this

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Speaker 17: core group. That it goes to the trust of the

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Speaker 17: ballot laws and that the voters of the city of

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Speaker 17: San Luis deserve the opportunity to vote without being pressured

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Speaker 17: by candidates that they must give their ballot to death.

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Speaker 17: That's what the law was designed to protect.

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Speaker 8: Defense attorney and Chapman uses her time to make one

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Speaker 8: final plead to the judge. Gear Mina should only get probation.

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Speaker 5: The implication that Miss Wint's pressured someone in this case

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Speaker 5: because of their value is fault. Miss Twine's has a

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Speaker 5: role in her community of helping others, and when people

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Speaker 5: ask her for help, including looking at their balance, that's

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Speaker 5: what she does. There is no purpose or reason to

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Speaker 5: sentence Miss twenty to jailer to prison, as requested by

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Speaker 5: just Bos. The question is what is the harm and

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Speaker 5: what's the appropriate punishment?

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Speaker 2: The answer to how Giermina's case shapes out and what

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Speaker 2: it tells us about the national election crimes movement.

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Speaker 21: So unfortunately, right now we're gonna have to take you

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Speaker 21: to Dale.

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Speaker 13: Nothing.

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Speaker 2: Nobody vote Brontron that's next un revealed from the Center

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Speaker 2: for Investigative Reporting in p r X. This is reveal

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Speaker 2: I'm led. It's Thursday, October thirteenth at the County Courthouse

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Speaker 2: in Yuma, Arizona. Today, Germina Fuentes is being sentenced for

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Speaker 2: ballot abuse during the twenty twenty primary election. Prosecutors have

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Speaker 2: asked she serve a year in prison. The defense has

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Speaker 2: asked for probation. Judge Roger Nelson tells the court he's

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Speaker 2: always has had jail time in mind for this case.

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Speaker 2: He says Germina doesn't seem remorseful enough, and calls back

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Speaker 2: to a time when she told investigators that she's not

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Speaker 2: a criminal.

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Speaker 6: Oh, you are a criminal's committed a criminals.

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Speaker 17: I don't think you rits.

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Speaker 6: That's the problem that I have And for that reason.

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Speaker 3: On purity thirty.

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Speaker 2: Days thirty days in jail in twenty four months of

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Speaker 2: supervised probation for handling four legal ballots that were not hers.

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Speaker 2: Germina is one of the first people to serve jail

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Speaker 2: time for an election related crime in Arizona since Arizona

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Speaker 2: criminalized ballot electing in twenty sixteen. Other states have followed suit.

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Speaker 2: Reveal's Saolou Messa has looked at all fifty states to

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Speaker 2: analyze election related bills filed since the twenty twenty presidential election,

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Speaker 2: and she found states are putting more money, people, and

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Speaker 2: resources into solving a problem that doesn't exist. So as

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Speaker 2: a thirty days in jail for handling four ballots is

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Speaker 2: that typical for how election crimes have been handled in

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Speaker 2: the state.

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Speaker 8: No, Al, this case is actually not typical at all.

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Speaker 8: Election crimes like ballot collecting and even more serious things

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Speaker 8: like illegal or fraudulent voting have historically been punished with

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Speaker 8: probation in Arizona, so gear Mina actually having to serve

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Speaker 8: jail time at all really really stands out.

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Speaker 2: How common are these kind of offenses.

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Speaker 8: They're not common at all. For example, in Arizona state

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Speaker 8: investigators looked at complaints of election crime from the last

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Speaker 8: three years. There were thousands of tips, and of those

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Speaker 8: they only prosecuted twenty cases. I think about election crimes

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Speaker 8: like I think about the Boogeyman. There's just no proof

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Speaker 8: that the boogeyman exists, right, So it wouldn't make sense

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Speaker 8: to pass a bunch of legislation or invest public resources

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Speaker 8: in like an office of boogeyman crimes.

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Speaker 2: It wouldn't shock me, but really, you're not right.

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Speaker 8: My colleague Cassandra Hadmio kind of posed this idea to

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Speaker 8: David Lada when we were in San Luis. Remember he's

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Speaker 8: the guy who turned in giar Mina. Now cas doesn't

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Speaker 8: say the boogeyman, she uses a different name.

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Speaker 20: Are you familiar with the story of elkuku.

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Speaker 5: Ya?

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Speaker 7: Okay, you know that he's gonna come, We'll get you

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Speaker 7: and all that stuff.

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Speaker 20: So much of what election fraud in this country, it

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Speaker 20: kind of is starting to feel like some sort of

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Speaker 20: like yeah, and you know, we're reporters and we're trying

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Speaker 20: to we have to rely on facts and documentation.

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Speaker 16: And I just.

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Speaker 20: And I haven't seen anything so far that indicates that

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Speaker 20: our elections are being undermined on a national I mean,

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Speaker 20: and I think a lot of people are of this

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Speaker 20: mindset of.

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Speaker 6: Like I understand this when you're sitt on that side,

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Speaker 6: and I understand one hundred percent. That's that's what has

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Speaker 6: made it so difficult twenty two years to prove that

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Speaker 6: any fraud occurs. And one of the examples that I've

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Speaker 6: made is is like I've been saying, hey, Bigfoot exists,

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Speaker 6: but okay, show me the proof.

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Speaker 7: And we still haven't seen that proof.

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Speaker 8: But that hasn't stopped election deniers and stop the steal

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Speaker 8: politicians from calling for a crackdown on voter fraud.

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Speaker 18: I want to see arrests, I want to see perp walks,

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Speaker 18: and I resent having my vote stolen.

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Speaker 7: So that's State Senator Wendy Rodgers.

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Speaker 8: She and other lawmakers like her say the election was stolen,

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Speaker 8: and they're putting pressure on their state legislatures to stop

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Speaker 8: and prevent widespread voter fraud.

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Speaker 7: You know, and I know though.

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Speaker 8: Countless lawsuits and task forces and audits have found the

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Speaker 8: stolen election claims to be totally baseless. But we're still

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Speaker 8: seeing election crime bills popping up across the country. And

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Speaker 8: I was keeping track of all of them, every single

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Speaker 8: election related bill filed since the twenty twenty general election.

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Speaker 2: That's a ton of bills. How did you know what

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Speaker 2: to look for?

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Speaker 8: So I was first keeping track by hand, but it

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Speaker 8: was a lot for one person to handle. So I

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Speaker 8: teamed up with Revealed Data reporter Melissa Lewis, and we

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Speaker 8: made a database. We used keywords first, We filtered for

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Speaker 8: bills with terms like election, voting, ballot, and then we

447
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 8: filtered even further using words like crime, felony, fraud, and

448
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 8: we saw how many of these bills.

449
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 7: Came up in each state.

450
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: Okay, so what did you find?

451
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 8: As I said, it was a lot, but I can

452
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 8: summarize it all onto three buckets. The first bucket is

453
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 8: bills that create new election crimes that didn't exist before.

454
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 8: The second is bills that add harsher punishments for election

455
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 8: crimes that are already on the books. And the third,

456
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 8: the last one, is bills that give law enforcement more

457
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 8: resources to hunt for election crimes, whether that's more money

458
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 8: or more time, more new offices. All together, we found

459
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 8: one hundred and thirty bills across forty two states, and

460
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 8: a little more than twenty percent of those bills made

461
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 8: it into law. Because I had been focusing on Gearmina's case,

462
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,479
Speaker 8: I was also paying special attention to bills about ballot

463
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 8: collection to see if other states were also trying to

464
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 8: make it a crime or at harsher penalties. Turns out,

465
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 8: nineteen states introduced bills like this after the twenty twenty election.

466
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 8: Some of them proposed that ballot collection should be a felony,

467
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 8: just like in Arizona, and that could mean jail time

468
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 8: or losing your right to vote, all for delivering someone

469
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 8: else's legal mail in ballot.

470
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 2: I've definitely done a version of this. I've taken my

471
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 2: kid's ballot to a drop box. Mean, it just sounds intense, Yeah,

472
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: it does.

473
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 8: You have to understand that ballot collecting has become really

474
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 8: really central to conspiracy theories about how elections get stolen.

475
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 8: The assumption is that the ballot would be unsafe once

476
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 8: it's out of the voter's hands. Critics of these bills

477
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 8: say that criminalizing ballot collection is a voter suppression tactic,

478
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 8: and others don't think laws like this should exist in

479
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 8: the first place.

480
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 6: I don't think we should be making crimes out of

481
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 6: things that aren't bad.

482
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 7: That's Idaho Democratic State Rep. Alana Rebel.

483
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,719
Speaker 8: She was speaking back in February at this House Florida

484
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 8: bate over a bill that would criminalize ballot collecting the.

485
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 7: Fact that it could be misused. That's not how we operate.

486
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 14: We don't ban all driving because it's possible that somebody

487
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 14: could drive drunk.

488
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 7: We ban drunk driving, We ban the bad behavior.

489
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 18: We don't ban good behavior simply because it's conceivable that

490
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 18: somebody somewhere could do it badly.

491
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: So what other kind of bills did you see?

492
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 8: So in fourteen states, we found bills that would give

493
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 8: law enforcement more money and freedom to investigate these types

494
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 8: of crimes. For example, lawmakers in Tennessee filed a bill

495
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 8: that would require twenty percent of the state's criminal investigators

496
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 8: to focus on election related issues. And some of the

497
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 8: other more extreme bills we saw would spend millions of

498
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 8: taxpayer dollars creating brand new offices to police election crimes.

499
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: Wait, don't we already have the police, attorney general's local prosecutors,

500
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 2: you know, people who already handle this kind of stuff.

501
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, we do, but these would be specially designated offices,

502
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 8: and the people working there would be focused on one thing,

503
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 8: election crime.

504
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 12: You know, some of these counties, some of them will

505
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 12: do the cases, but that's not their expertise. They got

506
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 12: all these other crimes that they have to deal with.

507
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 12: So by the time it happens, the election's already over

508
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 12: and some just don't want to deal.

509
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:40,959
Speaker 7: With it at all.

510
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: I am very familiar with that voice. That's Governor Ron

511
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 2: DeSantis of my home state, Florida.

512
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 8: And lawmakers in your state passed a bill that was

513
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 8: one of the more extreme examples we saw. They allocated

514
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 8: nearly six million dollars six million to create an Office

515
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,959
Speaker 8: of Election Crimes and Security, and yeah, us that office

516
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 8: is entirely dedicated to investigating alleged voter fraud.

517
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 12: We'll have sworn law enforcement officers as part of this.

518
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 12: We'll have investigators. And so what will happen is if

519
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 12: someone's ballot harvesting, you report it to these people, and

520
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 12: this is their sole job.

521
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 7: We're already starting to see this new office go after people.

522
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 11: Apparently, I guess you have a warrant for what, I'm

523
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 11: not sure voter stuff.

524
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 8: We're vo The governor has bragged that officials arrested twenty

525
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 8: Floridians who voted in the twenty twenty election illegally because

526
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 8: they had previous felony convictions.

527
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 21: It's two felony charges for voter fraud, but they've reduced

528
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 21: it to five hundred dollars bonds, so it's one thousand

529
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 21: dollars to man. What, yes, sir, So unfortunately, right now

530
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 21: we're gonna have to take you to Dale, right, That's what.

531
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 22: You're getting I didn't do nothing, nobody.

532
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: Again voter fraud.

533
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 8: Far turns out many of those arrested had received a

534
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 8: voter registration card from their local elections office.

535
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 2: Okay, so there are people out there who will listen

536
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: to this and say, this just sounds like states are

537
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: trying to make absolutely sure that our elections are secure.

538
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: And that's a good thing. I mean, how do you

539
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 2: respond to those people?

540
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, they're asking a great question and an important question. Now.

541
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 7: I spent a lot of time talking to different.

542
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 8: Election experts and voting rights groups about this, and I

543
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 8: heard Oliver and over again that all these extra penalties

544
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 8: and these new quote unquote election police will intimidate voters.

545
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 8: Here's how Mada lobby the Policy Council with the NAACPS

546
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 8: Legal Defense and Educational Fund. She's speaking at a hearing

547
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 8: about one of these new election crime laws in Georgia.

548
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 23: Georgia's elections have been put under a microscope, and the

549
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 23: myth of significant election crimes or voter fraud has been shattered.

550
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 23: We know that excessive law enforcement presence at the polls

551
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 23: or involvement in elections generally can be intimidating to voters

552
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 23: and This is especially true in black communities that have

553
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 23: felt the brunt of well documented abuse.

554
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 8: And of course you don't have to look super far

555
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 8: back in American history to find examples of the intimidation

556
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 8: and abuse that she's referring.

557
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: To, right, I mean, this is the blueprint we've seen

558
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: since Jim Crow literacy poll taxes. Then in recent years

559
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: it's been a little more subtle voter id laws, closing

560
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: polling places and communities of color, all kinds of bureaucratic

561
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 2: things to make it harder to vote. But now it

562
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 2: seems like we're heading into not being so subtle anymore.

563
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 8: Absolutely, the voting rights groups I spoke to said these

564
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 8: ideas are not really original. Lawmakers are just using twenty

565
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 8: first century tools. But people in the voter fraud movement

566
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 8: don't see voter intimidation as a problem. Many of them

567
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 8: want to see more prosecutions.

568
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: I mean, I know from our previous reporting at Reveal

569
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 2: that using the narrative that the twenty twenty election was

570
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: stolen is a campaign strategy that works.

571
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, let's just look at Arizona again. Almost

572
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 8: every candidate running for statewide office who won the Republican

573
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 8: primaries and ran on election integrity.

574
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 11: Ladies and gentlemen, we know it, and they know it.

575
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: Donald Trump won.

576
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 7: That was Mark Fincham who's running for Secretary of State.

577
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 7: We're going to drag the twenty twenty election out.

578
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 8: We're going to find each and every loophole that was

579
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 8: used to cheat and steal our vote, and we're going

580
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 8: to fix it.

581
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 7: Carrie Lake, who's running for governor, for them.

582
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 18: To constantly and consistently gaslights and tell us that the

583
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 18: twenty twenty election was the most safe and secure election history.

584
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 11: It's a lie.

585
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 7: And am Pamade he's running for attorney general.

586
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 8: They're all Arizona Republicans locked in close races for this

587
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 8: midterm election, and politicians who are already in office have

588
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 8: used some of the bills that we've been talking about

589
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 8: to prove they're serious about voter fraud. Wendy Rogers, the

590
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 8: Arizona senator I mentioned earlier, she introduced a bill that

591
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 8: would create a five million dollar law enforcement agency dedicated

592
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 8: to you guessed it, election crimes. It was an almost

593
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 8: identical bill to the one that passed in Florida. Now

594
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 8: keep in mind, Arizona already has an elections Integrity Unit

595
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 8: in the Attorney General's office. The bill that Senator Rogers

596
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 8: introduced didn't pass this time around, but she's up for

597
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 8: reelection in November, and she's broken state fundraising records.

598
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 7: She's just shattered them. So I don't think we've seen

599
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 7: the end of that bill, And it.

600
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: Sounds like we haven't seen the end of a lot

601
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: of these bills.

602
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 14: Right.

603
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 8: This is much bigger than Arizona, and with the November

604
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 8: election around the corner, there's no doubt we're going to

605
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 8: see many of these new laws tested.

606
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: Say thanks so much for coming on.

607
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, thank you for having me. It's been really nice

608
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 7: to share the reporting.

609
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 2: That was Reveals Essays not a Hamdan producer story with

610
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 2: additional reporting from Cassandra Haramio and Jessica Pishko. You can

611
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: read Essay's full story and see our database of election

612
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: crimes legislation at revealnews dot org. Free and fair elections

613
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 2: are supposed to be about the voters choosing their politicians,

614
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 2: But what happens when politicians get to pick their voters.

615
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 22: It was now possible to support an election completely by

616
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 22: rigging the maps.

617
00:35:33,640 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 2: That's next on Reveal from the Center for investigative reporting

618
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: in PRX. This is revealed i'm outlets. Bogus claims about

619
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: rigged elections have become a rallying cry among many Republicans

620
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: this election cycle. And while there's no proof of so

621
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: called ballot harvesters are anything resembling widespread fraud, there is

622
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 2: one way in which elections are being rigged, and it's

623
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 2: totally legal. It's been happening for decades in some places.

624
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: It benefits Democrats and others Republicans, and it's a danger

625
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 2: to democracy. We want to close out today's show by

626
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 2: looking at Jerrymander and how it's playing out in Wisconsin,

627
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: a state that's known for thin presidential elections, but that's

628
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 2: not what it's like in the state's legislature. Ari Berman,

629
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: a senior reporter of Mother Jones, has been looking into

630
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 2: how one party has locked in control over this purple state,

631
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: pushing through some deeply unpopular laws.

632
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 11: In June, as the US Supreme Court was on the

633
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 11: brink of striking down Roe v. Wade, Wisconsin Governor Tony

634
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 11: Evers had a press conference at the state capitol.

635
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 15: Today and calling for a special session of the legislature

636
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 15: on Wednesday, June twenty second at noon to take up

637
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 15: legislation to repeal Wisconsin's eighteen forty nine abortion ban.

638
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 11: If the High Court overturned Row, an old law in Wisconsin,

639
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 11: a really old one banning abortion in the state would

640
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 11: immediately go into effect. So Evers directed state legislators to

641
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 11: come together and debate repealing the law, and two weeks later,

642
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 11: lawmakers gathered with protesters clad in pink packing the Capitol rotunda.

643
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 11: Evers is a Democrat. By law, the Republican controlled legislature

644
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 11: was required to come into session, but that's about all

645
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 11: they did.

646
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 6: Chamber Republican Senate President Chris Kappinga gabbled in Governor Tony

647
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 6: Evers's special session to address Wisconsin's ban on abortions, and

648
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 6: fifteen seconds later gabbled out.

649
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 11: Two days after the Republicans gaveled in and gabled out

650
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 11: the session without any debate, the Supreme Court overturned Row,

651
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 11: and that eighteen forty nine law went into effect. Wisconsin's

652
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 11: abortion ban was passed more than seventy years before women

653
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 11: got their right to vote. It imposes a six year

654
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 11: prison sentence for doctors who perform an abortion, and makes

655
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 11: no exceptions for rape or incest, and voters here don't

656
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 11: like it. One poll estimates that more than eighty percent

657
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 11: of Wisconsinites opposed at least some aspects of the law.

658
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 15: We know this eighteen forty nine law is not what.

659
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 18: The people want.

660
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 11: Governor Evers is in a tight race for re election,

661
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 11: so I spoke to him at his campaign office in Milwaukee.

662
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,240
Speaker 11: It's just down the hall from a dentist. Nothing flashy,

663
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 11: which is on rand for a governor whose passions include

664
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 11: vanilla ice cream, egg mcmuffins and the card game Yuker.

665
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 11: I asked Evers about the abortion man and what he

666
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 11: hoped to achieve by calling on Republican leaders to hold

667
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 11: that special session.

668
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 15: It is something that is bar burying, in my opinion,

669
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 15: so we thought, at least we get some discussion on

670
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 15: the table. Well they agree with us to get rid

671
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 15: of it, Probably not, but at least the people Wisconsin

672
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 15: have an opportunity to hear what our legislature has to

673
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 15: say about it.

674
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 11: Then happened there was no discussion of the abortion law

675
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 11: because Wisconsin Republicans had the power of the gavel, and

676
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 11: it wasn't the first time they've gabbled in and gaveled

677
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 11: out of five other special sessions on everything from expanding

678
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 11: medicaid to increasing education funding to requiring background checks for

679
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 11: gun sales. Evers says the Republicans' tactics are an attack

680
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 11: on democracy itself.

681
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 15: Outside of my office, there is this wonderful saying on

682
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 15: the roof that says, the will of the people is

683
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 15: the law of the land. We have to come to

684
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 15: the conclusion that the will of the people is not

685
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 15: the law of the land. It's the law of the Republicans.

686
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 11: Throughout the country, a backlash over abortion bands is expected

687
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 11: to drive voters to the polls and hurt Republicans. So

688
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 11: you'd think Republicans in Wisconsin would be especially vulnerable in

689
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 11: the upcoming elections, but their control of the state legislature

690
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 11: is all but guaranteed. A big reason is how they've

691
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 11: redrawn the voting maps. It all started a decade ago.

692
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 11: In twenty eleven, protests erupted in Madison over Republican Governor

693
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 11: Scott Walker's efforts to cut education funding and take on

694
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 11: public sector unions by teachers. The protests lasted for weeks

695
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 11: and became a huge national story.

696
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 6: Madison police now estimate that between eighty five and one

697
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 6: hundred thousand people were here as we looked at.

698
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 11: There, But across the street from the Capitol, there was

699
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 11: something else going on that captured much less attention, something

700
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 11: that would shape and distort the political process to this day.

701
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 11: At a private law firm, teams of lawyers, consultants, and

702
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 11: Republican lawmakers were meeting to redraw the state's voting maps.

703
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 11: It's something that happens after every census, and in Wisconsin

704
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 11: it's the job of the legislature. But the Republicans were

705
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 11: putting together these maps in secret, without any input from

706
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 11: the Democrats at the time. Dale Schultz was a prominent

707
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 11: Republican lawmaker.

708
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 22: I was aware of what redistricting was. I knew that

709
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 22: we could gain an advantage. I'd known how it had

710
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 22: been you used in the past in various states. What

711
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 22: I didn't know was just how refined the process had become.

712
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 11: Dale says this moment in twenty eleven was when his

713
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 11: own party crossed the threshold from redistricting to partisan gerrymandering.

714
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 11: The effects became clear a year later.

715
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 22: Breaking news of the moment, President Obama we project will

716
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 22: carry the state of Wisconsin.

717
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,439
Speaker 11: In twenty twelve, President Obama won Wisconsin by almost seven

718
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 11: points and Democrats captured a majority of the total votes

719
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 11: for the legislature.

720
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:36,720
Speaker 22: You know, I was done, like a lot of people

721
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 22: that the Democrats had done that well. The overall trend

722
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 22: in the state was huge.

723
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 11: The Democratic surge didn't even graze Republicans in the legislature.

724
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 11: The voting maps provided their armor. That night, the GOP

725
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 11: was able to hold on to more than sixty percent

726
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 11: of the seats.

727
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 22: I said, wait a minute, that's not possible. It was

728
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 22: like an epiphany. All of a sudden, I realized it

729
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 22: was now possible to suport an election completely by rigging

730
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 22: the maps.

731
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 11: Dale was already at OZ with a Republican leadership on

732
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 11: a host of issues. When he retired in twenty fifteen,

733
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 11: he joined with a Democrat to try to take politics

734
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 11: out of the way the state draws voting maps. The

735
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 11: plan was modeled on Iowa's nonpartisan approach and one support

736
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 11: from more than three quarters of counties, but it needed

737
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 11: approval in the legislature. The Republicans wouldn't budge.

738
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 22: And what's sad about that is, you know, when a

739
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 22: majority of the people of the state are clearly speaking

740
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 22: about the change they want, and politicians have managed to

741
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 22: give themselves a ten or twelve point margin in election,

742
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 22: it's virtually impossible to change the legislature.

743
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 11: The jerry mandard maps continued, giving Wisconsin Republicans a big edge.

744
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 11: Here's a perfect example. In twenty eighteen, Democrats won fifty

745
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 11: three percent of the popular vote, but they only got

746
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 11: thirty six percent of seats in the state Assembly. We

747
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 11: wanted to ask Republican Party leaders about all this. We

748
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 11: reached out to state Party Chair Paul Farrow, GOB candidate

749
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 11: for governor Tim Michaels, and Assembly Speaker Robin Voss. None

750
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 11: of them would agree to an interview, but the GOP

751
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 11: has regularly defended the voting maps. Republican leaders point out

752
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 11: the map survived major legal challenges, including one that went

753
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 11: all the way to the Supreme Court. This is Robin

754
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 11: Voss speaking to television station WISN in Milwaukee. They're fair,

755
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 11: they're constitutional, they are legally following state and federal law.

756
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 11: In recent years, some of the most closely watched districts

757
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 11: have been in the leafy suburbs west of Milwaukee. So

758
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 11: we're heading down what street, Center Street, and I'm.

759
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 16: Going to turn left on Wabitosa Avenue, which will take

760
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 16: us to the village.

761
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 11: A few weeks ago, I toured the area with Robin Vining.

762
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 11: She's a photographer and Democratic legerd She lives with her

763
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 11: family in wahwa Tosa, a small city ten minutes from

764
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 11: downtown Milwaukee. We passed by tidy craftsman bungalows set on

765
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 11: streets lined with tall crab apple trees.

766
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 7: It's the school.

767
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 16: Everybody walks everywhere. It's lots of dog walkers, lots of kids,

768
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 16: and people really love living here.

769
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 11: But there's another side to Wahwatosa, a deeply racist pasted

770
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 11: up until the nineteen fifties, signs of the city limits

771
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 11: boasted of restrictive zoning, a reference to covenants that were

772
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 11: used to keep people of color from buying homes.

773
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 16: Wawasa was a red Lion city.

774
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 11: But Robin says the suburbs are changing, becoming younger and

775
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 11: more diverse. For decades, Wahwatosa was a Republican stronghold, but

776
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 11: that's changing too. In twenty eighteen, Robin pulled off a

777
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 11: major upset, becoming the first Democrat to flip a seat

778
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,919
Speaker 11: in the legislature under the Republican's maps. She won again

779
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 11: in twenty twenty, this time by eight points. That year,

780
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 11: there was also a new setis giving Republicans the opportunity

781
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 11: to redraw voting maps once again. They sliced and diced

782
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 11: Robins district. Okay, so we're gonna keep walking down through

783
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 11: the village, right, and this is like the heart of Wahwatosa.

784
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 11: Correct where we are now, the village of Wahwatosa. Okay,

785
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 11: So the chocolate place and the brewery are in one district,

786
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 11: and then the classic church across the streets in another district.

787
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's all like the same neighborhood all.

788
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 16: It's literally called the Wawatosa Village.

789
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 11: Republican map makers carved up Wahwatosa Village. Democrats say it's

790
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:47,439
Speaker 11: classic gerrymandering. The new maps packed more registered Democrats into

791
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 11: Robin's district, essentially guaranteeing her victory. Those Democrats were moved

792
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 11: out of neighboring districts, making them more reliably Republican. These

793
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 11: changes might seem small, but they can earn the Republicans

794
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,479
Speaker 11: and et extra seat in the legislature, and this would

795
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 11: put them within reach of a supermajority. Giving the GOP

796
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,800
Speaker 11: the power to override a governor's veto. Robin says, this

797
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 11: is how Republicans have rigged elections.

798
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 16: So they were gerrymandering our area blue so that they

799
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 16: could gerrymander other areas red. And it made me really sad, sick,

800
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:21,720
Speaker 16: and angry.

801
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 2: Shouldn't you be happy you have a safe district now?

802
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 16: Shouldn't I care more about our democracy and our people

803
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 16: than whether or not I have a job.

804
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 11: Outside of Madison and Milwaukee, there are some blue patches.

805
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 11: There are also large areas of red that have been

806
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 11: that way for decades, like Dale Schultz's former district. It

807
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 11: sits in the rolling hills of southwest Wisconsin. This is

808
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 11: where he owns a two hundred and ten acre farm

809
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 11: that's been in his family for generations.

810
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 22: You'll see this luxury is green, and then these plots

811
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 22: of warm season grasses.

812
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,959
Speaker 11: L stairs his utility vehicle along a trail that cuts

813
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 11: through waist high grasses and three hundred year old oak trees.

814
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 22: Let's just say we see an abundance of turkeys and

815
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 22: pheasants and black bears, and come here, let's go, come on.

816
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 15: Come.

817
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 11: Back at his farmhouse with his dog Odie Dale talks

818
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 11: about his nearly twenty five years in the legislature. He

819
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 11: says he doesn't miss driving back to the farm after

820
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 11: late night sessions in Madison. He does miss the way

821
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 11: democracy played out before everything got jerrymandered.

822
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 22: I took my share of barbs over the years. I

823
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,399
Speaker 22: took him from the right, I took him from the left.

824
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 22: But out here that made me popular. I think people

825
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 22: respected that people were independent. But there has been a

826
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 22: steady assault on that kind of thinking, and a steady

827
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:01,720
Speaker 22: diet of fear and grievance has been pushed to people,

828
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 22: and I'm afraid it's having an impact.

829
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 11: Dale says he still considers himself a pro life Republican,

830
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 11: but he's disturbed by what the party has become and

831
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 11: that elected officials, even his own friends, are not willing

832
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,720
Speaker 11: to debate important issues like abortion.

833
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,959
Speaker 22: What that says to me is that democracy is dying.

834
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 22: It's why I'm concerned about democracy. When we've become so

835
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 22: afraid of ideas that we want to hide from them,

836
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 22: I think that says something profound about us.

837
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 11: Today. Wisconsin is defined by partisan gridlock. Over his last

838
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 11: four years in office, Governor Evers has vetoed more than

839
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 11: one hundred and twenty Republican bills. Republicans say Evers is

840
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 11: failing to deal with the state's biggest problems. The governor

841
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 11: says he's defending democracy. This year's election isn't just about

842
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 11: us politics. It's also about the next election for president

843
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 11: in twenty twenty four and whether Wisconsin will certify their results.

844
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 11: I ask Governor Evers whether this is something he's worried about.

845
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,240
Speaker 11: If you lose or if Republicans gain a super majority

846
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 11: of the legislature, how concerned are you that Republicans won't

847
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 11: certify the twenty twenty four election If a Democrat.

848
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 15: Wins, that will give them censor guard blanche to mark

849
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 15: up an election, for example, a presidential election.

850
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 11: So there's a real possibility that the legislature or the

851
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 11: governor might not honor the result of a free and

852
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 11: fair election.

853
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 14: That's right.

854
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 15: Absolutely, anything's possible. In this day and age, anything's possible.

855
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,879
Speaker 11: Wisconsin isn't the only place where state races could cast

856
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 11: a shadow over the twenty twenty four presidential election, and

857
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 11: two other swing states, Arizona and Nevada, Republican election deniers

858
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:00,320
Speaker 11: are running strong in the polls like Wisconsin. These states

859
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 11: played a key role in deciding the twenty twenty election,

860
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 11: so what happens here could have a huge impact on

861
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 11: the future of fair elections for years to come.

862
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: That story was from Ari Berman, senior reporter at Mother Jones.

863
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 2: Ari has written a terrific deep dive on Jerry Manny.

864
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 2: We've got a link at our website, revealnews dot org.

865
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: Ari's story was produced by Reveals. Michael Montgomery. Our lead

866
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 2: producer for this week's show is Nadia Hamda, Jenny Kassis,

867
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 2: Prett Myers, and Mariam Salai editing the show. Melissa Lewis

868
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 2: built our database of election crimes legislation. Sue oh is

869
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 2: our data editor. Additional data support came from Reveals Roy W. Howard,

870
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: investigative reporting fellow Fara el to Ojame. Special thanks to

871
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 2: Cassandra Harrimio and Jessica Pishko for their reporting. Him and

872
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 2: Jones editors Dan Schulman and Clara Jeffrey Nicki. Frick is

873
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: our fact checker. Victoria Baronetski is our general counsel. Our

874
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 2: production mantor is Amy the Great Mustaf. Original score and

875
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 2: sound designed by the Dynamic duo Jay Breezy Mister, Jim

876
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 2: Briggs and Fernando my Man Jo Ruda. Our post production

877
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 2: team is the Justice League and this week it includes

878
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 2: Katherine Styra Martinez. Our digital producer is Sarah Murk. Our

879
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 2: COEO is Maria Feldman. Our CEO is Robert Rosenthal. Our

880
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,240
Speaker 2: interim executive producers are Takei, tell Anitas and Brett Myers.

881
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 2: Our theme music is Camarado Lightning. Support for Reveals provided

882
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Speaker 2: by the Riva and David Logan Foundation, the John D.

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Speaker 2: And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, the Jonathan Logan Family Foundation,

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Speaker 2: the Ford Foundation, the Heising Simons Foundation, the Helman Foundation,

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Speaker 2: the Democracy Fund, and the inn as Much Foundation. Reveal

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Speaker 2: is a co production of the Center for Investigative Reporting

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Speaker 2: and PRX. I'm Al Letton, and remember there is always

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Speaker 2: more to the story

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Speaker 15: Or st