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Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making

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Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know

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Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news

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Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is

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Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier,

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Speaker 1: member today at breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money

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Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and

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Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage

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Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most

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Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for?

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Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Counterpoints. We're excited to be back for this

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Speaker 1: Friday morning. Ryan. How is your week? Week was good?

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Speaker 1: Glad to be back, looking forward to another show. Well,

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Speaker 1: you wanted to talk about something that we didn't have

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Speaker 1: in our rundown, Because we have a great rundown. We're

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Speaker 1: going to start talking about start with talking about developments

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Speaker 1: in the invasion of Ukraine. We're then going to talk

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Speaker 1: about in FTC hearing or actually a grilling of Jonathan

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Speaker 1: cant and lead a Khan from the ftc by Congress

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people miss that that flew under

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Speaker 1: a lot of people's radars. Ryan, you're talking about all

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Speaker 1: kinds of stuff, but particularly you have you have a

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Speaker 1: lot of evidence in the monologue that you're laying out

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Speaker 1: as it pertains to you. There's been another really close

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Speaker 1: look at the killing of shrin Abu Bacle which and

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Speaker 1: we'll also talk about the the fight that he erupted

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Speaker 1: this week among Democrats over again over anti Semitism. That's right,

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Speaker 1: accusations flying back and forth. And then we'll talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about Walmart. They want you they want people

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Speaker 1: to get naked. Who Walmart wants people to pose in

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Speaker 1: tight fitting clothing. That's a quote in order to try

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Speaker 1: and close virtually. So I'll talk a little bit about that.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about update in the posting wars.

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Speaker 1: That's right. The Texas uh, the Texas trolling law around

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Speaker 1: big tech that basically said you know, you can't censor

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Speaker 1: people was upheld by the Fifth Circuit, so we're probably

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Speaker 1: headed to the Supreme Court. It's a really the memars

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Speaker 1: are really headed all the way the top. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's more than memoirs. We're talking about getting into nationalization territory,

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Speaker 1: which I mean, it's a big it's a big deal.

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Speaker 1: So we'll talk about that case and then we're gonna

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Speaker 1: we're really excited to have Max Alvarez here. Couldn't fit

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Speaker 1: him in last week. So Max is back. He's giving

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Speaker 1: us an update and the ongoing negotiations. The media has

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Speaker 1: sort of moved on and acted as though they're totally

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Speaker 1: over that the negotiations with the railway workers are completely over.

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Speaker 1: But Max knows better than that, and we'll give us

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Speaker 1: some insights on everything as it pertains to those negotiations. So, Ryan,

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Speaker 1: you wanted to start, actually though, by talking about a

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Speaker 1: bill that was passed in the House last night. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people weren't paying attention to it. It created

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Speaker 1: an interesting rift among Democrats that a lot of people missed.

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Speaker 1: Tell us what happened. Yeah, major drama yesterday all throughout

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Speaker 1: the day in the House of Representatives. And we'll see

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Speaker 1: whether this moves from symbolic to real. Because the Setate

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Speaker 1: is trying to do a police funding and police reform bill.

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Speaker 1: It's not impossible that this could happen because a ton

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Speaker 1: of House Republicans ended up voting for this, so this

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Speaker 1: could become real. For now, the bills that were passed

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Speaker 1: by the House are going to be seriously modified before

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Speaker 1: they come along, but all sorts of drama. And so

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Speaker 1: in order to get these bills to the floor, you

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Speaker 1: have to pass what's known as a rule. And so

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Speaker 1: the parliamentary procedure is, this is the rule under which

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Speaker 1: we're going to debate this, and you have to get

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Speaker 1: a majority vote in order to move that forward. Republicans, generally,

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Speaker 1: the minority doesn't help you, doesn't help the majority pass

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Speaker 1: the rule, which means that Democrats have to be united

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Speaker 1: in order to get it through. The squad does not

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Speaker 1: like this funding bill because we went from passing the

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Speaker 1: George Floyd Policing Act in twenty twenty twenty but not

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Speaker 1: through the Senate, to now we're passing more funding for police,

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Speaker 1: and so to them, this is a real betrayal of

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Speaker 1: the movement that burst out onto the scene in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, for the sake of politics, they're

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Speaker 1: doing this election. You're with to show that we're not

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Speaker 1: getting fund the police. We're funding the police, just like

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Speaker 1: Biden said, because they're getting hammered in ads on police crime.

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Speaker 1: The squad is not here for that, and so they

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Speaker 1: vote no on the rule, and without the margins they need,

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Speaker 1: it's about to go down. And so here Pelosi, the

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Speaker 1: hammer comes out. The speaker doesn't. She starts twisting arms

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Speaker 1: and she does two things to get the get the

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Speaker 1: bill through that are pretty extraordinary. One, she gets Iana

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Speaker 1: Pressley to switch her vote from no to present, so

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Speaker 1: and so, now Republicans are within one vote of being

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Speaker 1: able to take it down. And there's one Republican who

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Speaker 1: hasn't voted yet. She's on her way to the floor.

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Speaker 1: The custom is, you're on your way to the floor,

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Speaker 1: you'll let the you let the person vote like that.

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Speaker 1: That's how you That's that's the that's the camaraderie that

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Speaker 1: has developed over two hundred plus years in the House

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Speaker 1: of Representatives. That publican who McCarthy's waiting for, Liz Cheney's

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Speaker 1: late getting to the floor, and Pelosi says she had

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Speaker 1: too much snooping on the American people. She's and Pelosi says,

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Speaker 1: you know what, boom and she gabbles it. And so

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Speaker 1: it passes two sixteen to two fifteen with one verse

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Speaker 1: person voting present and one person not voting. Amazing. So

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Speaker 1: that's like some sixty million dollars worth of funding the

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Speaker 1: local police report to local police department billions really each

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Speaker 1: it would be each each police department under one hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty five officers get sixty grand to go toward training,

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Speaker 1: or it can go it can go toward body cams.

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Speaker 1: And so since a lot of them are already doing

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Speaker 1: training in body cams, the opposite, the opposition is saying, well,

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Speaker 1: now they're just going to use this money to fund

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Speaker 1: the things that they were already funding fundable, and you're

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Speaker 1: going to use the money to go buy a tank

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Speaker 1: or whatever because the tanks are cool right well, and

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Speaker 1: this is obviously a huge midterm theme. It's a recurring

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Speaker 1: theme for Democrats. The president's City of the Union address

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Speaker 1: this year, he said, we are going to fund the police,

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Speaker 1: and they're getting clobbered on crime in a lot of

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Speaker 1: different places. Crime has not just gone up. Certain crimes

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Speaker 1: have not just gone up in certain cities. It's also

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Speaker 1: rural areas. The Wall Street Journal did a good report

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Speaker 1: on that particular rural areas. Speaking of tanks, though, Ryan

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Speaker 1: actually our first topic of the show today is what's

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Speaker 1: happening in Ukraine. What's happening in Eastern Ukraine. Vladimir Putin

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Speaker 1: ordered a mobilization of reservists. He gave about a fifteen

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Speaker 1: minute national address this week where he said he's not bluffing.

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Speaker 1: He said, he is not bluffing. I'll tell you know

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Speaker 1: when somebody's not bluffing, if they say that they're not bluffing.

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Speaker 1: But that's the problem. Literally, nobody knows. Nobody knows whether

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Speaker 1: or not he's bluffing. And we can all game it

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Speaker 1: out from the sidelines and say X, Y and z.

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Speaker 1: He has this reason not to do it, and this

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Speaker 1: reason to do it, but nobody, at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day knows except for Vladimir Putin. This comes on

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Speaker 1: the heels of somectories for Ukraine, which is being heavily

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Speaker 1: supported by the United States in Eastern Ukraine. What did

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Speaker 1: you make of the developments this week? Putin has been

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Speaker 1: resisting this, this mobilization, this huge draft the entire time

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Speaker 1: because it takes the war from the kind of spectacle

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Speaker 1: that it is for the Russian people into something real.

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Speaker 1: It would be as if you know you had the

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Speaker 1: support that you had for the Iraq War in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and three to two thousand and four, and then

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you say, you know what actually

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Speaker 1: not going so well, We're going to start drafting everybody

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Speaker 1: under fifty five to go over to Iraq. Do you

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Speaker 1: how do you feel like at that point support for

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Speaker 1: the Iraq war would go? And that's that has been

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Speaker 1: the big fear why he didn't want to go. Egor Kotken,

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Speaker 1: who you remember from we used to have on It Rising,

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Speaker 1: he lives. He lives in Moscow, fun commentator. I would

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Speaker 1: suggest people you follow him on Twitter. He tweets in

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Speaker 1: both Russian and English, and so you can kind of

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Speaker 1: keep up with you know, where the politics are and

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Speaker 1: what he is. What he's really been flagging is that.

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Speaker 1: And he flagged this immediately. If you compare the speech

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Speaker 1: that Putin and Shoygan gave about this mobilization to the

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Speaker 1: actual mobilization itself, the speech was just shot through with lies.

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Speaker 1: Like the speech said, we're going to call up three

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand people. We're only going to call up people

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Speaker 1: who have military training and who have recent combat experience.

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Speaker 1: So don't worry, you know, we're not calling up you know,

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Speaker 1: guys who are over fifty years old who've never served

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Speaker 1: in the military, like this is this is a all

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Speaker 1: and the American news media too, Global News me have

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Speaker 1: called it, as he did, a partial mobilization. Edgar was like,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing partial in this document. There are absolutely no limitations.

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Speaker 1: And now the reporting that's coming out of Russia is

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Speaker 1: that it appears like there is nothing partial about it,

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Speaker 1: that they are that they're sweeping up extraordinary numbers of people,

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Speaker 1: and there was one estimate that appeared in a European

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Speaker 1: paper citing Kremlin sources, saying that they're actually looking for

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Speaker 1: a million draftees. Well, in this caused I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of what we saw I'm assuming this week. I

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Speaker 1: think we have some elements the New York Times that yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's gleefully reporting this right, so some men flee Russia

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Speaker 1: fearing they could be called up to fight. That's from

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Speaker 1: the New York Times. There's also an article in The

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Speaker 1: Guardian that had some interesting details as well. We can

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Speaker 1: get that up. It's a one hundred percent mobilization. That's

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Speaker 1: the quote from the headline of the Gardenian article. Day

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Speaker 1: one of Russia's drive to build up its army. What

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Speaker 1: stood out to you Ryan from these reports of the

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Speaker 1: I mean, how Russian people are reacting, right, I mean

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Speaker 1: you saw you saw flights to Istanbul Istanbul immediately sell out.

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Speaker 1: You're seeing people head to head overseas before kind of

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Speaker 1: travel is cut down, before travel is stopped. For military

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Speaker 1: age men, you saw a lot of reports of men

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Speaker 1: as old as like fifty two, fifty three years old

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Speaker 1: getting these drafts papers. And you know, we do ten

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Speaker 1: weeks of basic training just then that's the start here

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Speaker 1: in the United States for counterpoints, we did, right, ten

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Speaker 1: weeks of basic training for count ten weeks in basic training.

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Speaker 1: Did the Rope's course no weed, Yeah, yeah, it was.

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Speaker 1: It was rough, but that's you know, that's that's why

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Speaker 1: we have the Christmas that we have here. We're methodical

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Speaker 1: and we're ready. In Russia, it's a it's a couple

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Speaker 1: of days. Like the reports on what what the training is,

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Speaker 1: it's like here's here's how you clean a weapon, Here's

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Speaker 1: how you load it, here's how you pull the trigger.

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Speaker 1: Go and just and just throwing bodies. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how that works in modern warfare, like just just throwing

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Speaker 1: bodies at at Ukraine I just don't, and I think

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Speaker 1: a lot And what you're seeing is a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in Russia like no, thank you, because like you

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Speaker 1: could be a fifty two year old man just sitting

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Speaker 1: at home on Tuesday, and by like Saturday, you're in

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Speaker 1: the trenches right like, fighting Ukrainians who you never wanted

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Speaker 1: to fight in the first place. And so Agor thinks

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Speaker 1: that what this that that the best possible scenario here

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Speaker 1: is that what this represents is Putin's effort to throw

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Speaker 1: a ton of force into stopping the Ukrainian advance so

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Speaker 1: that he's in a better negotiating position, so then he

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Speaker 1: can kind of crank things up on Europe in the

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Speaker 1: in the winter and then negotiate an end to the war.

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Speaker 1: Like that's that's Egor's best case scenario, that this is

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Speaker 1: that this is not his effort to create some massive

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Speaker 1: and Europe. But this is actually his move to try

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Speaker 1: to get a little bit of advantage right before going

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Speaker 1: to the negotiating table. And he's you know, he's trying

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Speaker 1: to lock down these uh, he's trying to annex these

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Speaker 1: provinces that they are that they're currently occupying. But that's

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Speaker 1: what it all comes down to, is what would a

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Speaker 1: negotiation of an end of the war actually look like,

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Speaker 1: Because in a lot of for a lot of people

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Speaker 1: in America and you know, the an Apple Bombs of

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Speaker 1: the world, it's seems like nothing short of regime change

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Speaker 1: is an acceptable end to the war. And in America, again,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of cheerleading for what seems like a

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Speaker 1: weakened Putin. It does seem to be that that does

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Speaker 1: seem to be the case absolutely, but you also have

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Speaker 1: to be completely clear eyed about the reality that a

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Speaker 1: weakened Putin can be a more dangerous Putin. And the cheerleading,

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Speaker 1: I think is at times a little bit distasteful because

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Speaker 1: you're cheerleading painting Vlatimir Putin. Somebody who has and we've

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Speaker 1: heard this again, strategic the deployment. I think it was

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Speaker 1: Midvedev who said that this week, the deployment of strategic

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Speaker 1: or targeted nuclear weapons, that is that level of escalation

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Speaker 1: and when you start approaching nuclear tit for tat, and

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Speaker 1: there are serious conversations about that happening, whether or not

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Speaker 1: we know what will transpire, which we don't. Is the

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Speaker 1: bottom line again, I just I find some of the

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Speaker 1: satisfaction distasteful because painting Vladimir Putin into a corner is

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Speaker 1: never a good place to be, period, right, right, And

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Speaker 1: and so it raises the question of what risks is

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Speaker 1: are the world willing to take here? Because you said

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Speaker 1: there's potential of actual nuclear strikes, the potential of nuclear

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Speaker 1: meltdowns at power plants. Yes, there are two power plants

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Speaker 1: actually that are that have been, that have that are

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Speaker 1: in kind of areas which are experiencing shelling. There is

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Speaker 1: the political collapse of Europe to consider, uh there, which

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Speaker 1: we're already starting to see. There's all the suffering that

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Speaker 1: that entails. Then there's the suffering of the tens of

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Speaker 1: millions of Ukrainians. Some there's some really good reporting I

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Speaker 1: think it was in the New York Times about how

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Speaker 1: so many people don't have windows and can't get glass

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Speaker 1: because even if you if you're even if you haven't

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Speaker 1: had your actual apartment unit shelled, like, there's a good

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Speaker 1: chance that it blew the windows out. It's now you're

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Speaker 1: heading into the winter with no windows. This is terrifying

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Speaker 1: stuff like this. We've got to put a stop to this.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, if if it winds up with

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Speaker 1: Russia having legal control of some areas that it already

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Speaker 1: had to facto control of it, Okay, Like I like,

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Speaker 1: and I think and I also think that Putin because

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Speaker 1: people will say, okay, well you have to take a

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Speaker 1: you have to pay a price for this type of aggression.

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Speaker 1: I would wouldn't think, who is it Modi? I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: think I'd be agreeing with Mody. But Modi says publicly

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Speaker 1: to Putin, this is not an era of war, like,

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Speaker 1: so there have to be consequences for for war, mister Putin,

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Speaker 1: have you not heard about the end of history? Right?

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Speaker 1: I've told you on the pile and read It's over.

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Speaker 1: We're not doing wars anymore. We're not invading each other

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Speaker 1: Azerbaijan by the way, right, and so there have to

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Speaker 1: be some consequences. But I feel like has felt those consequences.

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Speaker 1: Like I think other countries who were looking at this

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Speaker 1: and thinking like maybe I should invade another country would say, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe this is not such a good idea.

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Speaker 1: Now Ozerbaijan example doesn't really make my make my case. No,

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Speaker 1: uh So, anyway, we're always going to have people Ozerbaijean

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Speaker 1: is always going to be firing missiles and messing around

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Speaker 1: with Armenia and like that that situation is its own thing.

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Speaker 1: What if they each had a McDonald's, if they both

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Speaker 1: had a McDonald's, and it wouldn't happen. So so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think if if Putin is seriously making one last

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Speaker 1: push before getting to the table, I think we got

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Speaker 1: to get to the table right end this war and

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Speaker 1: this idea that that Ukraine has that they're not going

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Speaker 1: to stop until they take back Crimea or they take

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Speaker 1: back everything that like Russia was kind of illegally holding,

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Speaker 1: Like come on, like we're gonna We're gonna put the

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Speaker 1: world at risk for that. Yeah, I mean exactly. There

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Speaker 1: has to be more serious consensus about what an end

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Speaker 1: to the war would be among Americans funding it to

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Speaker 1: the tune of I mean just an incredible, incredible amount

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Speaker 1: of money, and I don't think that exists, right, And

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Speaker 1: when John McCain wanted to go to war over crime

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Speaker 1: everybody recognized that as crazy, and so I think, yes,

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Speaker 1: and yet I mean, yeah, it's just there's never been

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Speaker 1: it's just the sort of piecemeal what constitutes escalation, what

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Speaker 1: constitutes aggression, and you can go back and forth, while

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Speaker 1: the United States did this, NATO did that, we'll Russia

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Speaker 1: did this, and Russia did that, and there's just Ukraine

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Speaker 1: is being used as a pawn and people are suffering

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Speaker 1: and dying, and the people who are funding the war

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Speaker 1: don't have a clear consensus on what a victory actually

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Speaker 1: looks like other than regime change, which is clearly unacceptable

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Speaker 1: to putin right, So I think if Russia can be

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Speaker 1: pummeled back to the table by this Ukrainian advance and

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Speaker 1: you can get an actual truce, negotiate peace here, it's

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Speaker 1: time to do it. Well, let's move on to the FTC.

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Speaker 1: Let's move on all right, sorry, let's move on to

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Speaker 1: the Fifth Circuit. We're doing two tech segments, one about

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Speaker 1: the FTC and but one now we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about a major decision out of the Fifth Circuit this week.

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Speaker 1: Fascinating actually, the net Choice v. Paxton case has been

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Speaker 1: a really interesting one to watch, and essentially, Ryan, this

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Speaker 1: is what happened this week is a really big deal

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Speaker 1: because it gives a lot of it puts wind into

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Speaker 1: the sales of the conservative challengers, and it's very odd

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Speaker 1: to see conservatives making the case that they are about

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Speaker 1: Twitter and about social media companies in general. What did

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Speaker 1: you make of what happened with the Fifth Circuit this week?

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Speaker 1: Our friend Rachel Bouvard was really happy about it. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we could put our tade up on the screen. Rachel

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Speaker 1: said that it had she had a yeah, here she goes.

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Speaker 1: The Fifth Circuit just kicked big tech right where it

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Speaker 1: hurts because net Choice is a trade association of tech companies,

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Speaker 1: and so basically responding to conservative outrage that they're being

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Speaker 1: censored on Facebook and on Twitter, Texas passed the law

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Speaker 1: basically saying that big tech can't censor people, right, and

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Speaker 1: that if you if you censor somebody unfairly. I think

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Speaker 1: they allow some exceptions like right, death threats, like yes,

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Speaker 1: sort of like very very narrow exceptions. And this is

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Speaker 1: companies that have over what fifty million users active? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: active users. So it's the biggest of the biggest tech platforms.

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Speaker 1: They're saying that you're not a publisher, you're a platform,

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Speaker 1: and therefore you have to allow people to speak. And

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Speaker 1: so the Fifth Circuit. Florida, Florida did a similar piece

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Speaker 1: of legislation, which was struck down by a different circuit,

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Speaker 1: the Fifth Circuit now has upheld it and said that

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Speaker 1: you know, they that they don't, that they don't have

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Speaker 1: a right to censor on their platforms, which which cuts

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Speaker 1: fully against Section two thirty and the and the law

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Speaker 1: as we understand it now, which which gives the tech

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Speaker 1: plots platforms, you know, cart launch. It says it's your platform.

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Speaker 1: You can do you can do whatever you want with it.

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Speaker 1: You can you know, you can scrub whoever you want

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason. Now you're not a publisher, you're not.

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Speaker 1: It's not as though you can't be sued for the

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Speaker 1: things that people say on your platform. Right, Ryan Grimm

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Speaker 1: is not an author on the Twitter newspaper. Right, So

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Speaker 1: like Ryan grim can flame Soger and Jetty YouTube. It's

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Speaker 1: not yeah, and it's not their fault. And that's what

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Speaker 1: Section two thirty essentially says. And I do like conservatives

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Speaker 1: to me to a frustrating degree obsess over censorship when

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Speaker 1: the problems with tech are so much more vast and

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Speaker 1: serious than just the censorship censorship question. But this case,

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Speaker 1: while it's about censorship, is about way more because it's

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Speaker 1: about the economic status. It's about the status as corporations

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Speaker 1: that we give, I mean the special privileges that the

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Speaker 1: government gives to these corporations to be run differently than

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Speaker 1: other things. And partially, in one of the dissenting opinions

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Speaker 1: from the the circuit was saying, listen, none of the

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Speaker 1: precedent applies seamlessly. So your common carrier precedent doesn't apply

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Speaker 1: seamlessly to big tech companies. And that's true. That doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean it can't, right, It's true. This is tricky stuff

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Speaker 1: because all platforms need some form of moderation. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you've ever been on a forum that is completely unmoderated,

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Speaker 1: it just it will just evolve into you know, basically

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Speaker 1: just like porn and fighting in bots, right, Like that's

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Speaker 1: that's that's kind of where the internet you just described

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Speaker 1: America and it's in our century porn and then nobody

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Speaker 1: wants to be on that platform. And so if if

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Speaker 1: you want a platform where you can you have have

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Speaker 1: discussions and actually Twitter total side show. Twitter does allow porn,

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Speaker 1: but they're they're like extremely good at like just keeping

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Speaker 1: it out of people's faces unless people want faces. It's

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Speaker 1: but you're not, it's anyway. So then the question is

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Speaker 1: like how do you allow a platform to moderate its

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Speaker 1: moderate the conversation in a way that enables a conversation

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Speaker 1: to take place without putting their you know, political thumb

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Speaker 1: on the scale in a way that's gonna that's going

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Speaker 1: to tick enough people off. Because the other thing, like

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Speaker 1: the other thing I mentioned there is bots. So now

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Speaker 1: if this rule were went into place and there was

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Speaker 1: one hundred thousand dollars fine for every you know, account

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Speaker 1: that you censored unfairly, their attempts to you know, root

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Speaker 1: out bot farms and bots are always going to catch

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Speaker 1: some people because you know, sometimes you'll like dig deep

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Speaker 1: into an account. You'd be like I promised you this

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Speaker 1: account as a bot, and you get to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of it, it's like a person. Yeah, it's really which

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Speaker 1: is almost scarier life imitating yes, yeah, life imitating AI.

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Speaker 1: And so if that person got swept up in kind

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Speaker 1: of a bots sweep, then they could sew for one

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars. And so then the companies then really

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Speaker 1: pull back on their bot sweeps, so like, we don't

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Speaker 1: want to catch it, we don't want to acces this.

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Speaker 1: We we got to very narrowly go after this. And

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Speaker 1: then all the bot farms just grow like weeds, and

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Speaker 1: so I think you do have to be careful about

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Speaker 1: what you wind up with. So I'm like, there's a

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Speaker 1: Vox article that I read on this, and I have

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Speaker 1: it pulled up right now where they called this an

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Speaker 1: astonishing opinion, and I think, you know, it is astonishing

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Speaker 1: to the extent that it takes a really big legal

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Speaker 1: step forward. It makes these like very robust legal arguments

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Speaker 1: in the direction of more regulation for Twitter and Facebook,

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Speaker 1: and it really has rolled the ball down that hill.

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Speaker 1: But it's interesting to me that the Vox article is

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Speaker 1: lamenting this. It's just odd to see this from the

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Speaker 1: left right, because they end their article saying the law

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Speaker 1: is technically in effect endangering the entire world's ability to

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Speaker 1: openly debate ideas is online. The tech companies are endangering

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Speaker 1: the entire world's ability to openly debate ideas online. And

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Speaker 1: for the sort of center left in the form of

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Speaker 1: Vox to lament what I don't think is a perfect framework.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think anybody would argue this is the

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Speaker 1: perfect solution to the problem. So much as like conservatives

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Speaker 1: are challenging, are mounting these legal challenges in order to

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Speaker 1: test what the law, how the law should apply to

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Speaker 1: these companies. But to just sort of say that the

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Speaker 1: decision itself is what's endangering the entire world's ability to

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Speaker 1: openly debate ideas online, I think is absurd because there

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Speaker 1: was a period of time on the Internet pre twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen when whatever you think of characters X, Y and Z,

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Speaker 1: of Alex Jones, of whomever, the Internet, I would argue

428
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: was much what was clearly a much better place for

429
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: the open exchange of ideas than it is now. It

430
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 1: was after the crackdown that things started to get worse

431
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,679
Speaker 1: and worse and worse. And there is a sou to this,

432
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: and it's more speech and not hyperventilating and acting like

433
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: an individual tweet is violence, or that people are too

434
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 1: stupid to say, oh, this conspiracy guy in a tenfoil

435
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 1: literally in a tinfoil hat is probably someone I should

436
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: double check. I think it has less to do with

437
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: the censorship crackdown and more to do with the way

438
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: that powerful algorithms fueled social media in a way that

439
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: didn't exist in say like twenty ten, twenty eleven. And

440
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: so back then you had Stormfront, you had Alex Jones,

441
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: you had all of these, Like you you had white

442
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 1: supremacist forums, but in you know, one hundred years ago,

443
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: you had white supremacist newspapers that would circulate around. But

444
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 1: the white supremacist newspapers and the white supremacist forums didn't

445
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: have the algorithm of capacity to become to get in

446
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: the to get in the faces of tens of millions

447
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: of people in a matter of like hours or days.

448
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: And that's what social media did, is it kind of

449
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: in a good way, broke the broke down the gates

450
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: and broke down the barriers, but that allowed everything else

451
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: to flow through too. And so now all of a

452
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: sudden you start seeing and it's easier also to get

453
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: traction on the algorithm with something that's not true. And

454
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 1: it's also easy to get traction with something that's hateful,

455
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: because that's the algorithm wants engagements. People see something hateful,

456
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: they engage with it boo this or yay this, And

457
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 1: so the algorithm favors things that are false and favors

458
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: things that are toxic. And that's but that's why I

459
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 1: think the well Elon Muscus proposed to this with Twitter,

460
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: But like I think, being able to look at the

461
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: algorithm and look, what it's doing is important. But the

462
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: problem at the end of the day is about algorithms

463
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 1: that prize addiction, division and hate. But we already know,

464
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: like we already have the old school like ACLU sentiment,

465
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: old school ACLIU sentiment that everybody was alway familiar with

466
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: more speech is always better than less. I mean, the

467
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: South tried to censor anti slavery pamphlets through the postal

468
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: system during the Civil War, and so yes, there are

469
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: absolutely white supremacy pamphlets that were being passed the postal service,

470
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: but it was also a method that abolitionists used to

471
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: reach people, and that sort of tension. I mean, there's

472
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: always going to be people who have bad ideas. And

473
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: if we have platforms that are basically monopolies, there can

474
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: be no other version of Facebook, because then there's no

475
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 1: point to Facebook, because the whole point is your network

476
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: is in one place. Same thing with Twitter, then we

477
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: should probably have them operate like we've traditionally had the

478
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: American public square operate. But at the end of the day,

479
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: that's why this is always just like tinkering around the edges,

480
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: because we cannot operate our public square anymore because we

481
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: don't for a million different reasons that we can get

482
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: into at a different time, but like that's what's at

483
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: what it's the fun and we can talk about that

484
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: more actually later on the show when we talk about

485
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: the hearing with Lina Kahan and the FTC and yes,

486
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: Josh Hawley and the big big Tech. For now, let's

487
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: move to a couple of different issues related to Israel Palestine. Yes,

488
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: the first one is is this one here? That is

489
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: so Over the last several months, there have been a

490
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: number of impressive examinations of the forensic video, audio, and

491
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: eyewitness testimony related to the killing of Palestinian American journalist

492
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: Sharin Abu Bakla, but the most thorough to date was

493
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 1: released this week and got almost no attention here in

494
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 1: the US. Now that's probably because it wasn't done by

495
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: a US media outlet, but instead through a collaboration between

496
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: the London based Forensic Architecture and the Palestinian human rights

497
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: organization al Hak. Now the full video is worth a watch,

498
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: and you can find it easily by googling Sharin Abu

499
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: Baclay and al Hak that's Haq. But what makes it

500
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: so superior is there full access to the critical Al

501
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: Jazeera coverage from the scene. Combined with their comprehensive reconstruction

502
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: of the neighborhood using drone footage, They were also able

503
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 1: to combine bystander footage with media footage like this At

504
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: six thirty one. The video shows the journalists including Shadin,

505
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: slowly walking towards the IOF position, following standard press protocols

506
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: for self identification. Less than a second later, the first

507
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: round of shooting begins with six single shots fired at

508
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: them in rapid secession from the IOF position. Seconds later,

509
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: the l Jazira camera starts rolling. After the first round

510
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: of shooting. This camera shows Ali running and shouting that

511
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: he has been wounded. Now, Scharene wasn't hit by this

512
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: first volley, but she'll be struck and killed by the

513
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: next one. The question then is who did it. Al

514
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: Hac was able to reconstruct the Israeli convoy that was

515
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: two hundred meters away and found the lead truck turned

516
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: sideways with a hole for a marksman to fire. Now,

517
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: next they identify the weapon and the scope that was

518
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: being used. Now, the scope magnifies things by four times,

519
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: and so they were able to reconstruct what the marksmen

520
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: would have seen through the scope. Here it is, and

521
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: for those listening on the podcast who can't see this

522
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: kind of the image makes it clear the shooter was

523
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: close enough with the scope to easily be able to

524
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: identify the people as non combatants and journalists. Now we

525
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: also know that the shots weren't fired randomly. They weren't

526
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: warning shots that went tragically wrong. Several of them hit

527
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,719
Speaker 1: the tree, which shows how clear it is that they

528
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: were shooting directly at them. And if you can't see this,

529
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: they put little red dots on the tree to show

530
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: right where they were. All the shots, if you notice,

531
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,239
Speaker 1: were above the shoulder. The clear intent here was to

532
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: shoot to kill. Now, the analysis also reconstructs what the

533
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: shooter would have seen after the shooting, and this next

534
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: part is perhaps even more to serving than the last

535
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: because it shows the incredible bravery of a citizen on

536
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: the scene who exposes himself to the shooter in order

537
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: to try to drag Scheren's body to safety, and the

538
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: shooter fires at him. Take a look, No shots are

539
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: fired when he is out of the shooter's field of vision.

540
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: As he approaches Schudin a second time, the shooter fires

541
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: two more shots at him. The level of courage on

542
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: display here is moving on such a deep level. He

543
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: just witnessed the attack on Sharen, but is still willing

544
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: to put himself in the line of fire on the

545
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: slim chance he can pull her to safety and save

546
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: her life. Perhaps the shooter missed the man on purpose,

547
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: but he fired multiple times. Shudda's position behind the tree

548
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: at this moment shields her from the shooter's view. Here,

549
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: as a civilian approaches Schudin and enters the shooter's field

550
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: of vision, the shooter immediately fires at him. What's even

551
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: more impressive about this investigation by AHAK is the can

552
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: issuans under which they've been working. Repression of Palestinian civil

553
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: society groups is a constant feature of the occupation, but

554
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: on August twenty second of this year, Israeli occupation forces

555
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: took it up a notch, drawing international outrage for rating

556
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,239
Speaker 1: seven Palestinian human rights organizations, including Al Hak. And if

557
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: you're watching on the podcast, what we're showing here is

558
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: CCTV footage of nine armored carriers coming up to the

559
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: Alhak headquarters, kicking a door in and marching through, rifling

560
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 1: through a bunch of different things. You can find that

561
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: video on their website as well. Other human rights organizations

562
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: posted similar videos of raids on their offices. So previously,

563
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: Israel had designated these organizations quote terrorist groups in an

564
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: effort to block the EU and US and other organizations

565
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: here from working with them. So the EU demanded evidence

566
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: to back up Israel's claim, and after reviewing what Israel sent,

567
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: the EU rejected the designations, saying Israel hadn't even come

568
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: close to showing that the organizations were linked to terrorism.

569
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: In a related controversy that I want to get your

570
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: take on, Representative Rashida Talib kicked off a controversy this

571
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: week within democratic circles by saying that you cannot be

572
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: somebody who holds progressive values and also support Israel's apartheid government.

573
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: She said, didn't say, Israel said Israel's apartheid government very quickly,

574
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: and let's put up Jerry Nadler here very quickly. The

575
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: ADL and a number of her colleagues in the House

576
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: Democratic Caucus kind of twisted her words and came at

577
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: her this way, she's so representative Nadler is saying, I

578
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,959
Speaker 1: fundamentally reject the notion that one cannot support Israel's right

579
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: to exist as a Jewish and democratic state and be

580
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: a progressive. There's a ton to unpack in the in

581
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: these two in the in the gaps between these two comments,

582
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: you wrote a whole story on it. I did. We'll

583
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: get to that one in a moment. I basically did

584
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: a fact check of whether she had made this claim

585
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: that Nadler and Adl and others are saying that she

586
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: doesn't support Israel's right quote right to exist. She never

587
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: said that. What she said is that you can't be

588
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: a progressive and support Israel's apartheid government. And so here's

589
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: the part that is deeply troubling to me about Nadler's

590
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: response here. It feels like, assuming Nadler heard or read

591
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: her quote, what Nadler is saying here is that Israel's

592
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: apartheid government, that phrase is synonymous with Israel, which to

593
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: me is slanderous toward Israel. Like there is a vision

594
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: of an Israeli government that is not an apartheid government

595
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: like that, and that is the vision that a number

596
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: that lots of progressives hold, that that is the place

597
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: that Israel needs to go to live up. You know,

598
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: to its responsibilities to the globe and to human rights

599
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: and to dignity and to the people that live within

600
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: its borders. To say that the only if that the

601
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: only potential Israel government is an apartheid government, to me

602
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: is selling the country short. Far be it for me

603
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: to defend Jerry Nadler, Although I do think he's making

604
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 1: the comment in the context of Rashida Talib being somebody

605
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 1: who supports the so called one state solution, which members

606
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: of Jewish community say is basically undermining the existence of Israel.

607
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: There is no one state solution, the argument goes without

608
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: undermining the existence of Israel. I also think it's in

609
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 1: the context of I mean again, there is a lot

610
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: of unfair haymade over comments that are not explicitly anti Semitic,

611
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: although I understand why people are sensitive, of course, So

612
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: everything that people have said Rashida Talib is you know,

613
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: over the line or any medic for saying just I

614
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: could go through it and say that these are you know,

615
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: that's that's being overbroad and there are you know, fair

616
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: arguments that should be in the realm of reasonable debate.

617
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: I think she's had a hard time recovering from that

618
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: retweet of from the River to the Sea, and I

619
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 1: do think when you're operating in that context, it's going

620
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: to be very hard for members of the Jewish community

621
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: to then take you to take what you say at

622
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: face value without also knowing that all of this other

623
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: stuff is going on. Yeah. I asked Richie Torres, who's

624
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: one of the most kind of strident defenders of Israel

625
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: and Democratic Caucus, yesterday about this, and he said that

626
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: exact thing. He said, you have to take this in context.

627
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: The only Democrat that I saw who stood up for

628
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: for Talib was actually Marie Newman, if we can put

629
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: that up. I think she said as a as a

630
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: proud wife of a proud Jewish man, I'm deeply disappointed

631
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: by those twisting Rashida Tleib's words. At no point that

632
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: you say Israel should not exist nowhere. She and I

633
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: support freedom and prosper arity for the Palestinians and Israelis.

634
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: That is progressive. She was actually taken out by APAC

635
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: and DMFI in a Democratic primary this cycle, and so

636
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: she's soon to be former Congresswoman Marie Numadic. But I

637
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: didn't see anybody else kind of come out and what

638
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: you saw was a lot of people sort of flock

639
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: to the opposition. And I thought your story was really

640
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: interesting and valuable, and I think we can put it

641
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: up on the screen and folks should read it. To

642
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: read it around the intercept where auctually really parsed what

643
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,439
Speaker 1: she said and said like, this is, you know, let's

644
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: take let's say we take all the contexts we just

645
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: talked about away. This is the actual meaning of the sentence,

646
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: and this is the actual meaning of the point. Because

647
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: to me, that's valuable because it's sort of just passionate

648
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: in a sense that like, let's actually listen to the

649
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: words and understand what they're saying and then come back

650
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: with more nuance instead of just saying X or Y

651
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: or z, because then you get into a place where

652
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 1: the overly broad stuff weaponizes I think, you know, accusations

653
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: a bigotry to suppress speech. So I thought your story

654
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: was really interesting. I do think, though, to leave struggles

655
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: when you know there's no way around the context. In

656
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 1: her case, the point about the one state is interesting,

657
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 1: and I want to unpack that a little bit. So basically, yeah,

658
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: the argument is, and and you hear people say this

659
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 1: publicly that if you support a one state solution which

660
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: gives equal rights to everybody who lives within that state,

661
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: then Arabs will outnumber Jewish Israelies and therefore it will

662
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: no longer be a Jewish state. Therefore, you're advocating for

663
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 1: the end of Israel. So first of all, why wouldn't

664
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: you be able to embed into a constitution some Jewish

665
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 1: characteristics into the state, Like, like just whatever basic tenets

666
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: of Judaism you want kind of embedded into the state.

667
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: Do that, and then end the apartheid and give everybody

668
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: equal rights. I don't know if anybody believes that's plausible

669
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: without a lot of pain and violence. And that's not

670
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: to say there isn't a lot of pain and violence

671
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: going on right now, But I don't know that anybody

672
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: believes that you could plausibly accomplish that without But like

673
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: what what what's so important? Like, like, what are the

674
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: things that would no longer be? Like would no longer

675
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,879
Speaker 1: make Israel Israel if you allowed Palestinians to vote, all

676
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: Palestinians to vote in elections. I mean, I feel like

677
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: I shouldn't take up the argument on behalf because I

678
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: mean it's I shouldn't argue on behalf of members of

679
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 1: the Jewish community. To him, Israel is a safe haven

680
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: and an essential, you know, an essential place. Write that

681
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: into the constitution. Right, But again that's where like, how

682
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,720
Speaker 1: is that plausible? How would you in a one state solution,

683
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 1: How could you plausibly write that into the constitution if

684
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 1: you have you know, these Palestinian voting blocks, for instance,

685
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 1: that could outnumber Jewish voters. We have voting blocks in

686
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 1: this country that majorities of which support all sorts of

687
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: policies that don't get enacted because we say it's not

688
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: in the constitution. Right, But we're not like a small

689
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: state that was meant to protect it historically incredibly discriminated

690
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: against minority. So I understand why on the other side,

691
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 1: I'm not the best person to make this argument. Yeah,

692
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,959
Speaker 1: because the other problem and I talked with Torres about

693
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 1: this as well. The appropriate and acceptable kind of quote

694
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: and I'm putting that in air quotes. Solution here in

695
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: the United States is you have to be for the

696
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: two state solution. Yes, yes, the politically correct, right, that's

697
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: the politically correct one. That's an and you know, APAC

698
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: and others insist on that. At the same time, Israel

699
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: is doing everything it can every single day to make

700
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: that on the ground and utter impossibility. Like if you know,

701
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: because of the settlement activity, because of the expansion of

702
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,399
Speaker 1: settlement activity, you've so kind of annihilated any contiguous pot

703
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 1: any any possibly contiguous second state in that in that

704
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: in those borders, that you've made that impossible, and you're

705
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: saying that the only other possibility is antisemitic and is

706
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: the end of Israel. Well that's the problem, yeah, I

707
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: mean the problem is where the I think that the

708
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: overly broad definition of what constitutes bigotry, even when it's

709
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: coming from entirely that's not to say this is describing

710
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: everybody who supports a so called one state solution, but

711
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: even when it's coming from people who are entirely just

712
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: trying to operate within the boundaries of reasonable debate and

713
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: solve a deep problem, it makes it harder to do that.

714
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 1: But at the same time, people are rightfully, very very sensitive,

715
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: especially in Israel, about the threats of anti Simmons, and

716
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: so it's just there's no way, like that's why this

717
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 1: is such an impass, and it's been an impass for

718
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: decades of course, so maybe we should What we should

719
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: do is host two people to have this conversation. I

720
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 1: invited representative to leave. We should get we should get

721
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: her on as soon as we can. Yeah, and anybody

722
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: else who wants to come on, Yeah, let's do that.

723
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea, So something to look

724
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: forward to, because yeah, I think the more that you

725
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 1: can have these conversations in good faith, which is difficult

726
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: to do when you've treaded in from the river to

727
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: the sea territory honestly, although she did delete that retweet,

728
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: but the more that you can have the conversation in

729
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: good faith, the better off we are. And what about you,

730
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 1: what's on your monologue or whatever? We say? Oh boy,

731
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: this is this is really something I'm going to have

732
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 1: my backup classes on because I left my real glasses

733
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: here this week, so so bear with me if you're watching.

734
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: But starting this week, you can try on Walmart clothes

735
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: virtually all for the small cost of a near naked

736
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: picture of yourself. What a deal, you might assume. Walmart

737
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: rolled out its new try on feature with the utmost

738
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: regard for consumer privacy concerns. Given increasing awareness of such issues,

739
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: I figured at least they'd have some sort of visible

740
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: statement about privacy when users interact with the feature, but

741
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: on the contrary, there's basically no information about privacy at

742
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: all when you go to use the feature. I did

743
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 1: a quick test yesterday and the Walmart app pretty much

744
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: just said to put on tight fitting shorts and tops

745
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: and shoes. It recommended heels, find a bright space, and

746
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: take a picture. There's a little question mark in the

747
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: upper right hand corner of the screen, but when you

748
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 1: click on it, there's also no information about privacy. So

749
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: I reached out yesterday and a Walmart spokesperson got back

750
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: to me and pointed to the company's very very broad

751
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: general privacy policy and then added, quote, the app does

752
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: not cash Slash store any images or metadata, so that

753
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: would be your app on your phone, and that could

754
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: mean a lot of things. Like I said, I went

755
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: and read their privacy policy. It's extremely broad. But let's

756
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: just for the sake of argument, put the best possible

757
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: spin on Walmart's claim and say your pictures just go nowhere.

758
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: The point remains, this is not only about Walmart, but

759
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: about a huge new swath of the economy where business

760
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: models rely on collecting and selling our information, Whether or not,

761
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: Walmart ultimately provides more information. Consider how insane it is

762
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 1: for a massive corporation to roll out this feature without

763
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: bothering to explain how people's privacy will be protected. I

764
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: had to ask as a journalist for that information. We've

765
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: given our data up willingly for so long. Big business

766
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: feels entitled to it. But who cares. It's just a picture,

767
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: not unlike what women take in swimming suits and post

768
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: to Facebook, Instagram and TikTok Already We're all smart enough

769
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: at this point to know there are risks involved. So

770
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: if people are willing to trade the picture for a

771
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: better shopping experience, what's the big deal? Well, the problem

772
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: is that's not always the trade off. Our data has

773
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: implications far beyond what we think it's used for in

774
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: any one exchange of personal information and for convenience. I

775
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,919
Speaker 1: can sit here and predict different ways Walmart might use

776
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: and abuse that data, but to some extent, we can't

777
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 1: even know how our pictures might be repurposed for profit

778
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: years into the future on this app or a similar one.

779
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: Shopping online for clothing is super efficient. Personally, I love it.

780
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,240
Speaker 1: I hate shopping in general, but I especially hate trying

781
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 1: on clothes in weird, uncomfortable dressing rooms, and hate being

782
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: hounded by people who need to hound me because they

783
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: work on commission and have families to feed. I just

784
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: don't think that's ideal. Now, when I use glasses, I

785
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: use a virtual try on feature because the experience is

786
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: much easier. I can't imagine how much easier online shopping

787
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: makes life for parents and people who work third shifts

788
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: or multiple jobs. Nick Clegg, the president of Global Affairs

789
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: at Meta, wrote a really interesting Medium post this week

790
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: on how a collective quote misunderstanding of data is fracturing

791
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: the Internet. Data, wrote Clegg, has both a commercial and

792
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 1: societal benefit, but it is not as simple as more

793
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: data equals more value. Data is not as a non

794
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: rivalry's good, which is a technical way of saying it

795
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: doesn't get used up when it's consumed. Burn oil and

796
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 1: it's gone forever. Make use of our data point and

797
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 1: still and it still exists to be used again. That's

798
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: from an executive at Meta. Indeed, people's sexualities have been

799
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: outed things to data they provided for very different purposes.

800
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: Others have been falsely implicated in crimes the FBI, ice

801
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: and other law enforcement agencies can subpoena companies for your information.

802
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: Your DNA may actually already be accessible if close family

803
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 1: members have used twenty three and me. Imagine if the

804
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: picture you uploaded to Walmart's app, thinking it was just

805
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: for an algorithm to help you figure out if a

806
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,439
Speaker 1: sweater would fit well, showed a tattoo that was later

807
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: used as evidenced against you for something you didn't do.

808
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 1: Or imagine if the database were hacked and private information

809
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: from your body or from the room you took the

810
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: picture in was exposed, like say, prescriptions or other people's

811
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 1: belongings or private documents. What if you're dealing with self

812
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: harm and you didn't expect anyone to see the picture

813
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: you thought it stayed on your phone. It recalls the

814
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 1: lessons of face app's meteoric rise a couple of years back,

815
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,399
Speaker 1: when people raced to upload pictures of themselves to see

816
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: how an algorithm would guess what there would look like

817
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: in the future, then realize. The app's terms hilariously gave

818
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: its random Russian parent company Bear with Me quote a perpetual, irrevocable,

819
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: non exclusive royalty feed worldwide, fully paid transferable sub licensable

820
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, published, translation, create derivative

821
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: works from, distribute, publicly, perform, and display your user content

822
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: and any name, username, or likeness provided in connection with

823
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: your user content in all media formats and channels now

824
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: known or later developed without compensation you. None of this

825
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: even gets into the possibilities of hacking or abuse by

826
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 1: people with authorized access to the data, which is an

827
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 1: equally huge problem. In a press release about the future,

828
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: Walmart actually bragged about how it was using software originally

829
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: designed for land quote. Our technology accomplishes this key to

830
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: rerentiator with algorithms and intricate machine and learning models, techniques

831
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: originally utilized in developing highly accurate topographic maps to show

832
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: how an item of clothing will look on someone. The

833
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: company boasted, so you're basically just a slab of concrete

834
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: with a credit card. Obviously, we all need to be

835
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: smarter consumers, but we've already forfeited so much data at

836
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: this point that surveillance capitalism, as Shashan and Zubov calls it,

837
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 1: will always know a lot about us. Over at Meta,

838
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 1: Nick Clegg is urging the government not to quote throw

839
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to

840
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 1: big data. Clegg acknowledges this is self interested, but sincerely

841
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: argues that Internet guardrails will suffice in lieu of quote

842
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: Internet roadblocks. He suggests roadblocks would lead to an authoritarian Internet,

843
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: but the public private collaboration of big business and big

844
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: government is actually what has us on a very slippery

845
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 1: slope right now towards an authoritarian internet. Asking either big

846
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 1: business or big government to police itself is quite a request.

847
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 1: The incentive would have to involve pleasing voters and consumers,

848
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: assuming big business and big government don't suppress that information,

849
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: as Clegg's own company did when the intelligence community flagged

850
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: the New York Posts Hunter Biden laptop story as disinformation.

851
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: And think of Hunter Biden himself. If his data had

852
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 1: been stored on the cloud, his laptop laptop needn't ever

853
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: have been the issue. All of those emails and pictures

854
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: and receipts and texts and calls and videos could have

855
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: been hacked, taken out of context, and used against him,

856
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 1: even if they showed no wrongdoing. In this case, of course,

857
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: they showed plenty of undoing. But like roads, our digital

858
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: infrastructure is much like our physical infrastructure. Increasingly designed to

859
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: make it nearly impossible for the average person to participate

860
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: in daily life if they don't want a car or

861
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 1: don't want to be commodified by surveillance capitalists, risking hacks

862
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: and abuses along the way. Now, Cleig might be right

863
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,760
Speaker 1: about one thing. It's possible guardrails will in some cases suffice. Walmart,

864
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: for example, already had a feature that let people choose

865
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 1: mond models who looked similar to them and see how

866
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 1: items of clothing looked on those models. That should be

867
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: just fine big businesses. Eternal ownership of your body is

868
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: not worth the efficiency of avoiding a return or eating

869
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 1: the cost of a sweater, No matter who you are,

870
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,399
Speaker 1: if a major corporation asks for a picture of us

871
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 1: without supplying privacy information, we have to train ourselves to pause,

872
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: and we have to have a government that keeps up

873
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: with regulatory work before those changes hurt people. We're slouching

874
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: towards dystopia with each new point of so called progress.

875
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 1: There was a fascinating series of exchanges between Lena Khan

876
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: mostly Lina Khan FTC, chair producer of many Wall Street

877
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 1: Journal tiers. Yes Yes, and Jonathan Canter was there as well,

878
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: but also a producer of many Wall Street Journal tiers. Fascinating,

879
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: fascinating changes between Cohn and Republican senators. Actually, some of

880
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: the most interesting exchanges were between Cohn and Publican senators

881
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: like Josh Holly, who initially supported her. We have a

882
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: clip that, again, like a lot of this went under

883
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: the radar. People weren't talking about it, But let's play

884
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: that clip here. What concerns we should be looking at

885
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: involving data privacy that might come about from either this

886
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: acquisition more broadly, about mass consolidation, particularly when you have

887
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: technology companies that are purchasing healthcare companies. Yeah, I mean, again,

888
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: speaking more generally, I think especially when you have firms

889
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: that are integrated across multiple lines of business, there are

890
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: a whole set of conflicts of interests that can emerge.

891
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: Oftentimes there aren't any limitations on how data being collected

892
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: and one line of business is being used in other

893
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: lines of business. And so we've heard concerns both from

894
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: consumers but also for market participants about just the deep

895
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 1: conflicts and asymmetries that that can create. Very good let

896
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 1: me ask you about at the FTC's work and relationship

897
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: with regard to big tech and in particular, something that

898
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: you and I have discussed in the past, and you

899
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: alluded to this earlier today, is that the FTC's historic

900
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: practice has been to a levy what appear to be

901
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: large fines on paper, but we know that the technology

902
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: companies Facebook, for an example, the FTC level I think

903
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: a five billion dollar fine Facebook. Facebook stock went up

904
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 1: when this happened. They don't regard it as particularly significant.

905
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 1: They don't change their behavior. Tell us about the need

906
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: to take on these companies when it comes to the

907
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: remedies in a more meaningful way. What are you doing

908
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: about that? What do you see the right approach being? Yeah,

909
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. We're taking a more fulsome look

910
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: at our remedial toolkit. In addition to naming individual executives

911
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: where appropriate, we've also started requiring deletion of data. So

912
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 1: we really want to make sure with a remedy that

913
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 1: the lawbreaker is not benefiting from the fruits of its misconduct,

914
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 1: and so in instances where data is unlawfully acquired, we're

915
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: requiring that it be deleted as well as any algorithms.

916
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: We have a whole set of really terrific technologists on

917
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: board that are making sure that our remedies are actually

918
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: being effective, especially in these types of instances. This is

919
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: a level of digital literacy that has not been seen

920
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: in Congress just since. As rewatching that now, it's striking

921
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: that has not been seen in Congress like ever, probably

922
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 1: And the importance of that is when you lack the

923
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: digital literacy, whether you agree with Josh Haller or not,

924
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: people get their talking points from special interest, from big tech,

925
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: and if you're understanding of big tech comes from big tech,

926
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: as it has for so many different members over the years,

927
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: that's bad. And to have an exchange like that where

928
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: the level of literacy and understanding is detailed and granular,

929
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: that is a great sign. And the full hearing showed that.

930
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: I think the confusion over, particularly on the Conservative side.

931
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: There's lots of confusion on the Democratic side, but they

932
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 1: keep it a little bit more mum because they know

933
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: they're not supposed to be you know, they know they're

934
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: supposed to all agree basically on antitrust, even though lots

935
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: of them are in the pocket of big tech. Whereas

936
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal, Chuck Schumer has really brainwashed a

937
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: bunch of Republicans, not just the Wall Street Journal. But

938
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: it's the forces that have that control the Wall Street Journal,

939
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: which is big business. Uh, you know, have still in

940
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: their grips a substantial portion of the Republican Caucus. And

941
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:10,760
Speaker 1: you saw that on display and the hearing. So Marsha Blackburn,

942
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: for instance, in questioning Lena Khan did the like old

943
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: school like ridiculous parties and stuff where she she dragged

944
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 1: out you spoke to a Marxist group. Are you are

945
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 1: you a communist? Well, you know, you know, when was

946
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: you know, when have you you know, are you now

947
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: or have you ever been associated? You know, just like

948
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: pulling some weird Joseph mcarthy stuff. It's like, why have

949
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: I never asked you that? Right? And so what was

950
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: so interesting is that normally it would be a Democrat

951
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: who would then take the podium and say, I'd like

952
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: to give you a chance to respond to this mccarthyis

953
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: assault that you just got from the clown on the

954
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,439
Speaker 1: other side of the aisle. Instead, it was Hawley who

955
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 1: said I'd like to give you a chance to respond

956
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: to my colleague Blackburn, And it gave Lena Khan the

957
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,800
Speaker 1: floor and Lena Cohn said, this was a student group.

958
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 1: I speak to different student groups. Student groups believe lots

959
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,839
Speaker 1: of things, like I don't believe these things. And then

960
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 1: they went into a conversation about ideology, which raises real

961
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: questions about what the Wall Street Journal's ideologies, because for Hally,

962
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: he's like, look, I am a free market capitalist, and

963
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,720
Speaker 1: I believe that a free market needs anti trust protection

964
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: because without anti trust protections, there's no free marketing. There's

965
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: no free market. You're going to wind up with one

966
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: behemoth who just controls the market no longer, you no

967
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,240
Speaker 1: longer have a free market. Why is the Wall Street

968
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: Journal okay with that? Like? Why are these men? And

969
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: I think we know the answer because they're in the pocket,

970
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 1: as a lot of these others are in the pocket

971
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: of big companies that have full control of these markets

972
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: or have massive control of these markets, and they don't

973
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: want a free market because that means they have to

974
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: give up market share. I think that's a really interesting debate, though,

975
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: because I see it more less as them being in

976
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: the pocket a big business. That is certainly it, but

977
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: also that people who are in the pocket of big

978
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: business have this very sincere reflexive trust for business over government,

979
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: and that is a reflex that in this era of

980
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: surveillance capitalism, as we just talked about, in these tech behemoths.

981
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 1: Josh Holly actually did his PhD thesis on Teddy Roosevelt,

982
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 1: and it's sort of the progressive movement of the early

983
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 1: twentieth century when you had railroads and I mean all

984
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: of this new infrastructure that was being built up and

985
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: companies with vast power that had been inconceivable previously to

986
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 1: like the last twenty years at the time when Roosevelt

987
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 1: takes office, and so there has to be there has

988
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 1: to be a new path forward. And I think even

989
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: the sort of ideologues, the Randian free market ideologues who

990
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,879
Speaker 1: in some cases aren't even consistent with their own ideology

991
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 1: because they believe in cronyism, where they will sort of

992
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: reflexively support cronyists over people who say that there's this

993
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 1: tending to the garden of free markets that involves weeding

994
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 1: monopolies because they impede consumer choice, and it's an obvious,

995
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 1: obvious thing to do in this case, but because tech

996
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,800
Speaker 1: companies are so new, they're able to muddle the water

997
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: because they're so new, because they're so unprecedented. As that

998
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: person who dissented in the fifth circuit case we talked

999
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,760
Speaker 1: about earlier in the show, said none of the precedents

1000
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,800
Speaker 1: apply seamlessly. She's right, I mean, this is absolutely correct,

1001
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: and so tech companies are able to come in make

1002
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: that very valid point, muddle the waters and exploit that

1003
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:35,320
Speaker 1: reflexive free market rorism that really desperately needs to be checked.

1004
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,320
Speaker 1: And even Marcia Blackburn, after she asked conn that question

1005
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: was very very favorable to her and other questions, doesn't

1006
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 1: want to be looked at as aech and she's not

1007
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 1: why the politics are interesting here. Blackburn is one of

1008
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 1: the most interesting examples of this because some people or

1009
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: someone someone a lot of people would say is a

1010
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 1: very mainstream red meat conservative who is very very good

1011
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:59,399
Speaker 1: on tech issues in the way that Howlly is good

1012
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: on tech is. And our friend Matt Stoleer basically live

1013
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: tweeted this entire congressional exchange and had he pulled a

1014
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: lot of really good stuff out of it. He said,

1015
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 1: it's notable that Holly, who's considered a rabid right wing partisan,

1016
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: probably had the friendliest and most substantive discussion with na Khan,

1017
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: who's called a quote calo radical law professor on antitrust.

1018
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: There are a Wall Street Journal quote, it probably sounds

1019
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: like the Wall Street Journal. And zed Jalani also jumped

1020
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: in with a story that he wrote for The Washington

1021
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: Examiner where Josh Holly said he defended voting for Lena

1022
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: Khan as the head of the FTC and said what

1023
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 1: I particularly appreciate for her as her emphasis and competition,

1024
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 1: Which gets to your point, Ryan that if you are

1025
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: a free market capitalist, or if you are somebody who

1026
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 1: believes in free markets because they should serve free people,

1027
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: isn't it the Wall Street Journal slogan like free markets,

1028
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: free people, is it? But it's it's one of these ways,

1029
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 1: like some markets exist for the flourishing of people. People

1030
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: don't exist for the flourishing of markets. And that gets

1031
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: totally turned around on the right a lot on the

1032
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: left to yeah, yeah, for sure. And I mean, if

1033
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 1: it makes Holly feel better, it makes me a little uncomfortable,

1034
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: like all like all of this celebration of markets and

1035
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: competition and because there are there are there are such

1036
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 1: you know, significant limits to you know, how much human

1037
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: flourishing they do actually end up end up serving. And

1038
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 1: throughout kind of the New Deal era and beyond the

1039
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: left liberal kind of old line liberal consensus was was

1040
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 1: kind of pro concentration. That basically the that you they

1041
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: that the United States needn't go socialists. Instead, what they

1042
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: would do is they'd have GE, they have GM, the

1043
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: Ford and have these you know, major companies that would

1044
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: that would control the commanding heights of industry, and the

1045
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: countervailing forces against them would be a big labor and

1046
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 1: government regulation. Now, uh and and that that way you

1047
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 1: would set up kind of a static and you know, peaceful,

1048
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: harmonious industrial society. Like that was the vision. Now the

1049
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 1: big big business got you know, broke out of that mold,

1050
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 1: that broke out of that cage. And in the government. Yeah,

1051
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 1: well in the seventies and eighties, big business kind of

1052
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: smashed both government and labor. Government was willing to be

1053
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 1: bowled over. Yeah, yeah they could. They captured it and

1054
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: yeah and put it right to sleep. Bring it out

1055
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: round a Reagan. The whole Reagan Revolution started with you know,

1056
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: starting under Carter with the regulation and so like there

1057
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 1: they're still on the left that some of that tendency

1058
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: to say, like you know, well sometimes bigger is better,

1059
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: and depending on depending on the industry that you're in. Well,

1060
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 1: that's it's actually interesting because what Reagan was doing was

1061
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 1: a reaction to a lot of what big labor had done.

1062
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 1: And so if you're talking about consolidation and bigness being better,

1063
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: if you have big government, big business, and big labor

1064
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 1: that trifecta as your ecosystem, you're probably not in a

1065
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 1: super well checked ecosystem. Like that's all of those the

1066
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 1: checks and balances that aren't of course constitutionally you know, sanctioned.

1067
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 1: In an arrangement like that, you still are going to

1068
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 1: be Like when you have that many big interests sort

1069
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 1: of butting heads, you'd think, you know, maybe this can

1070
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 1: work out, but in fact, you end up getting cronyism.

1071
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,080
Speaker 1: You end up getting big government in the pocket of

1072
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 1: big labor, and then big government also in the pocket

1073
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 1: of big business. And it just sometimes you have labor

1074
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: in the pocket business. It just goes in weird directions. Yeah,

1075
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: And if people want to watch somebody struggling with this

1076
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 1: whole concept, go back and watch the Ted Cruz and

1077
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:49,919
Speaker 1: Leanacon exchanges. So like, because Ted Cruz knows very clear

1078
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: he's like I need to be against big tech, Like

1079
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 1: that's right, Like that's who I am. But he's also

1080
01:00:55,680 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: a hack partisan Republican who spends a whole bunch of

1081
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: his time whining that the two Republicans on the FTC

1082
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 1: are not voting with the three Democrats in the FTC,

1083
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 1: Like he wants there to be like unanimity on these

1084
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 1: issues before she pushes forward with them, and like, and

1085
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,919
Speaker 1: he complains about some procedural stuff about who's able to vote.

1086
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 1: It's like he can't. He can't kind of break out

1087
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,439
Speaker 1: of the partisan thing in a way that Holly can,

1088
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:26,560
Speaker 1: where Holly can be like, you know what, I like

1089
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: what you're doing. That's funny because ted Cruz was called

1090
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: like the wacko one of the wacko birds or cucko

1091
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: by jeomcab right and in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen,

1092
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 1: around that time period when the Tea Party wave had

1093
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 1: sort of settled into Washington, DC, and nobody would ever

1094
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 1: accuse ted CRUs at that time of being partisan. What's interesting, though,

1095
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 1: is Josh Holly coming in. You know, newer members can

1096
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,680
Speaker 1: get away with a lot, and I think what they

1097
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:54,919
Speaker 1: do is start bending norms in the way that Ted

1098
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: CRU's bent norms in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen.

1099
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 1: I think you're seeing a Marshia Black not new to Washington,

1100
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 1: but as a new senator, you're seeing some norms get

1101
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: bent with a fresh crop of people on tech and it.

1102
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: I think I understand why it makes people on the

1103
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 1: left uncomfortable, even if they agree with it. But at

1104
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: the end of the day, like we have to desperately

1105
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 1: have to come up with something that works, and the

1106
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 1: government needs to be a part of it. Our culture

1107
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 1: needs to be a part of it. Consumers need to

1108
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 1: be smarter, but consumers also need the tools to make

1109
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 1: good decisions, and our government is not giving consumers those

1110
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 1: tools instead of what they're instead, what they're doing is

1111
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 1: allowing Meta to be the digital real estate kingpin in

1112
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: the metaverse, right, Like, this is all happening, and all

1113
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 1: of our land, if we just completely succumb to the metaverse,

1114
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 1: will be owned by Meta for the most part. And yeah,

1115
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 1: I don't know that we'll completely succumb to the metaverse,

1116
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: but if we did, Zuckerberg is just the real estate

1117
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: kingpin essentially. It's true, he owns the whole thing. And

1118
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 1: like Lena Khan kept telling Josh Holly, I couldn't agree

1119
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 1: more so, Matt. Max Alvarez is going to be up next.

1120
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 1: He was supposed to be here last week. We bumped

1121
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 1: him because we were talking so much. We've got him

1122
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 1: this time. The railroad and union negotiations are still ongoing.

1123
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 1: A strike is not out of the question. Max is

1124
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 1: going to have more details on what the actual offer was.

1125
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: Last week they just said we have a tentative deal,

1126
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 1: but nobody knew exactly what the deal was. We're starting

1127
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: to learn a little bit more about what it is,

1128
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: so we'll have that up next. And we are joined

1129
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 1: now by Max Alvarez, who is editor in chief of

1130
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 1: the Real News Network. He is host of What is Working,

1131
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,080
Speaker 1: People Right Max The Work podcasts, and is the author

1132
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 1: of the great book The Work of Living, which is

1133
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 1: sort of like an update to Stud's Turcle in a

1134
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 1: lot of ways in the modern economy. Great book. Highly

1135
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 1: recommend it. Nobody better here to talk about the ongoing

1136
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 1: negotiations between the railroad, railroad Union, the railroad bosses. Uh,

1137
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: you know, Joe Biden put the put the railroad workers

1138
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 1: in a bit of a bind about a week ago

1139
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 1: when he came out and said we have a tentative deal.

1140
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 1: We have a great deal. Congratulations to everybody, which sort

1141
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 1: of you know, says everyone, We're done with this, it's over.

1142
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 1: Everybody move on. The media has mostly moved on. We

1143
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 1: have a great deal, the best deal. It's a beautiful deal.

1144
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: I mean I had a beautiful call with the railroad

1145
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: bosses and tell them give them the best deal. And

1146
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 1: so the workers said, okay, well what is the deal Now?

1147
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 1: Details are starting to emerge from it, you know, Max,

1148
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 1: what what what's in the deal? What? What did workers win?

1149
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:44,959
Speaker 1: And what do what do workers feel like they still

1150
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: need to fight for? Man, Well, thanks for having me on, guys,

1151
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:55,160
Speaker 1: and congratulations on the new show. Excited to have you on. Yeah, no,

1152
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 1: I'm pumped, even if I am very, very tired. But

1153
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 1: you know, it's I'm glad that that we're doing this

1154
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 1: segment right because, as you mentioned, you know, last week

1155
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 1: was just yet another test case for you know, how

1156
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: far we have to go to understand, you know, like

1157
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: labor struggles in this country, which our existing kind of

1158
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,280
Speaker 1: corporate media ecosystem does not really help us to do.

1159
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 1: Like you mentioned, we were rapidly approaching the deadline last Friday,

1160
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:32,440
Speaker 1: after which strikes initiated by the twelve unions representing railroad

1161
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 1: workers on the Class one freight railroads could begin, or

1162
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 1: lockouts could begin initiated by the rail carriers the companies

1163
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 1: that owned the railroads. So we were rapidly approaching that deadline,

1164
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 1: and in the hours before that deadline came, the announcement

1165
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: on Thursday of last week was that, you know, the

1166
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 1: Biden administration, represent Labor Secretary, Marty Walsh, Transportation Secretary, people,

1167
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: the you know union presidents, and the rail carriers had

1168
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 1: hammered out, you know, a last minute deal to avert

1169
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 1: a rail shutdown. The media, you know, celebrated it like

1170
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 1: George W. Bush's mission accomplished speech, and everyone felt like, Okay,

1171
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 1: well the crisis averted. We can move on to the

1172
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 1: next thing. And yeah, like, no, that's not what's happening

1173
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 1: right now. In fact, like there's a lot that people

1174
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 1: need to understand about what's going on here. Like, as

1175
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: I mentioned on many an interview and in the coverage

1176
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 1: we've been doing for the Real News Network, it took

1177
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,919
Speaker 1: a long time for us to reach this point at

1178
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 1: which a national rail striker or a a rail lockout could

1179
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 1: legally happen under the terms of the Railway Labor Act.

1180
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 1: All that momentum had built up, all that frustration and

1181
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 1: anger had built up, and we were a day away

1182
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 1: from that deadline, and at the very last second, you

1183
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 1: know that the balloon has popped. This deal that no

1184
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 1: one got to see for a number of days was

1185
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 1: reached and the cooling off period was extended while the

1186
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 1: unions you know, eventually review the terms of that tentative deal.

1187
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 1: And in fact, like what was nuts was the people

1188
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 1: who were in that room who hammered out that deal

1189
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: said that they couldn't release the details for a few

1190
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 1: days because they were recovering from the marathon bargaining session,

1191
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 1: which is kind of tone deaf when we're talking about

1192
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:24,439
Speaker 1: a workforce that is complaining about not having any time

1193
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 1: to spend with their families being run into the ground

1194
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:30,640
Speaker 1: by you know, their work schedules and draconian attendance policies.

1195
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 1: So that kind of didn't really land with a lot

1196
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 1: of the membership who were saying, well, we're tired, you know,

1197
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that you had to do your job, but like,

1198
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 1: what's in the actual deal. And so we've started to

1199
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: finally get the details of that deal. I can go

1200
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 1: on if you want, but I feel like I've been

1201
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:47,680
Speaker 1: talking for a long time. I actually want to keep

1202
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 1: pulling at that thread, Like, how is what is right

1203
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 1: now the sentiments among the workers and the union representatives

1204
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 1: who have been trying to hammer out this negotiation. Are

1205
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: they happy the representation they have at the negotiating table?

1206
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 1: What is that dynamic like right now? You know, it's

1207
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 1: always hard to say in these situations because obviously the

1208
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 1: most disgruntled factions are going to inevitably be the loudest.

1209
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 1: And so, you know, folks who've been covering this for

1210
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 1: a long time, like myself, Jonah Furman at Labor Notes,

1211
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,080
Speaker 1: Mel Buher, you know who works with me at the

1212
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 1: Real News, and you folks over at Breaking Point in

1213
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 1: the Breaking Point Studio Crystals cover this a lot. We're

1214
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 1: hearing a lot of dissatisfaction from the rank and file

1215
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 1: right now, right and and there are numerous reasons why

1216
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:40,600
Speaker 1: people are pissed off about how this whole process is unfolded.

1217
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: And now you know, they are also pissed off about

1218
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,799
Speaker 1: the contents of the tenet of agreement that was reached

1219
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: last week. But it also remains to be seen what

1220
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:51,719
Speaker 1: the rest of the membership, you know, has to say,

1221
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:54,599
Speaker 1: because frankly, a lot of people are worn out by

1222
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 1: this process. A lot of people have kind of resigned

1223
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 1: themselves to the fact that nothing's significant is going to

1224
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 1: change on the railroads and the problems that have caused

1225
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: a real crisis in our supply chain by running the

1226
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 1: workers who make that supply chain move into the ground.

1227
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 1: A lot of folks have resigned themselves to the fact that,

1228
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: you know, they may just have to quit. You know,

1229
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 1: this is not necessary the career that they thought it was,

1230
01:09:19,360 --> 01:09:22,600
Speaker 1: So you know, there is a lot of disgruntlement, and

1231
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, they may the workers may end up kind

1232
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:28,200
Speaker 1: of voting these tentative agreements down, in which case we'll

1233
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 1: be right back to where we were last week when

1234
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:33,360
Speaker 1: a potential rail shutdown could happen. And I think that

1235
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 1: they have good reason to be disgruntled. You know, I'm

1236
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,200
Speaker 1: a side observer, obviously, I wear my politics on my sleeve.

1237
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:42,920
Speaker 1: I want workers to get a good contract. I want

1238
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 1: working people to get what they deserve and to stop

1239
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 1: being taken advantage of. But this is ultimately up to

1240
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 1: the membership, and they are the ones who are going

1241
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 1: to have the final say on whether or not to

1242
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 1: ratify this tenetive agreement. And so far, two of the

1243
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 1: craft unions that're out of the twelve that again represent

1244
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:03,599
Speaker 1: you know, over one hundred thousand workers on the Class

1245
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:07,840
Speaker 1: one freight railroads, this is the Transportation Communications Union and

1246
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:11,000
Speaker 1: the Brotherhood of Railway Carmen, have so far voted to

1247
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:15,600
Speaker 1: ratify the tenetive agreement. However, the Rail division of the

1248
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:19,679
Speaker 1: Machinist Union rejected the tenetive agreement and are back into

1249
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 1: bargaining at the moment. The big news that came, i

1250
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 1: think just forty eight hours ago is one of the

1251
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 1: two biggest unions representing workers on the railroads. That's the

1252
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:34,520
Speaker 1: Transportation Division of the Sheet Metal Air Rail and Transportation

1253
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:39,880
Speaker 1: Workers released the tentative agreement language to its members. They

1254
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:42,839
Speaker 1: are current and like the details that we have found

1255
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 1: in that tenetive agreement are really nothing to write home about.

1256
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:49,599
Speaker 1: I mean, essentially, it is, you know, just a slightly

1257
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:53,840
Speaker 1: nicer version of the PEB Presidential Emergency Board recommendations that

1258
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 1: workers were prepared to reject and strike over last week. Right.

1259
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 1: The only motion that is really the only movement that

1260
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:04,160
Speaker 1: has really happened on that front, which you're kind which

1261
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 1: is kind of laughable, is that workers would now have

1262
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:11,759
Speaker 1: three unpaid personal days per year for medical appointments. However,

1263
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:14,760
Speaker 1: the catch is that those medical appointments need to be

1264
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 1: scheduled between Tuesday and Thursday at least thirty days ahead,

1265
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 1: so you know, if folks are going to get sick

1266
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 1: and need to go to the doctor, they need to

1267
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: be planning a month ahead for that. And the other

1268
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:27,720
Speaker 1: one is that, you know, we've talked a lot about

1269
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,559
Speaker 1: the draconian attendance policies and how workers have no paid

1270
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:33,720
Speaker 1: sick days and staff have been has been cut so

1271
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:36,680
Speaker 1: deep on the railroads that you know, there are no

1272
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,040
Speaker 1: real reserve workers left, which is why workers are always

1273
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:43,840
Speaker 1: on call and always working long, arduous hours and get

1274
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:47,800
Speaker 1: penalized for taking any time off whatsoever. So the new

1275
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 1: you know, sweetener to this deal is that there will

1276
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:54,920
Speaker 1: be no penalizations or penalties for workers who are hospitalized

1277
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:57,800
Speaker 1: or like actively in surgery. And just think about how

1278
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 1: dystopian and orwellian that sentence is is like, oh wow,

1279
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 1: we hammered out a great deal where you won't get

1280
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 1: fired for going into surgery, Like thanks, I guess, But

1281
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:09,559
Speaker 1: like the other thing that I would say, a lot

1282
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:11,240
Speaker 1: of this is really in the weeds and would take

1283
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 1: more time to unpack. I've been talking to railroaders over

1284
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 1: the course of the week, but there are other things

1285
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:21,400
Speaker 1: that were content points of contention in the Presidential Emergency

1286
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 1: Board report that are cropping back up in this tentative

1287
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:28,479
Speaker 1: agreement because the PEB essentially kicked these issues down the

1288
01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:30,639
Speaker 1: road or said, like, you know, you guys have sixty

1289
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:33,560
Speaker 1: more days to negotiate, otherwise you go into binding arbitration.

1290
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:36,680
Speaker 1: And if you go into binding arbitration, the lawyers who

1291
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:39,120
Speaker 1: oversee it are going to go with past precedents. So

1292
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 1: workers kind of see the riding on the wall when

1293
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:44,040
Speaker 1: it comes to, you know, things that are very in

1294
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:46,679
Speaker 1: the weeds but are actually very consequential for their lives.

1295
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 1: Like what you'll hear this term self supporting pools, and

1296
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:54,439
Speaker 1: what that essentially means, right, is that you have workers

1297
01:12:54,800 --> 01:13:00,439
Speaker 1: engineers who are assigned to trains, and if any one

1298
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 1: of those engineers or conductors can't make that assignment, then

1299
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 1: there is a reserve pool of workers who will fill

1300
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 1: in that assignment. Essentially, what the self supporting pool system

1301
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 1: which is already implemented in two of the class freight railroads.

1302
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:19,080
Speaker 1: Means is it eliminates that reserve pool and makes it

1303
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:22,479
Speaker 1: harder for people who are assigned to trains to actually

1304
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,880
Speaker 1: take that time off. So it just accelerates this long

1305
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:28,240
Speaker 1: running trend that we've been seeing on the Class one

1306
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 1: freight railroads, where there were over five hundred thousand workers

1307
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 1: on these railroads in nineteen eighty. Over the course of

1308
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:38,040
Speaker 1: the past four decades, that has been reduced to under

1309
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:41,919
Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty thousand, and since twenty fifteen alone,

1310
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:45,600
Speaker 1: the rail carriers have collectively eliminated over thirty percent of

1311
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 1: their workforce. So they've been slashing and burning, which is

1312
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:52,000
Speaker 1: why workers have no reserves to pick up their shifts

1313
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:54,360
Speaker 1: for them if they call out sick, which is why

1314
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 1: they are being run into the ground, and why they

1315
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 1: are going to work sick and why they are unable

1316
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 1: to take the time off that they need. So a

1317
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:03,479
Speaker 1: lot of the issues that workers are ready to strike

1318
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:07,599
Speaker 1: over because the PEB recommendations fell shows short, are still

1319
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:09,720
Speaker 1: here in this tenet of agreement. So it is very

1320
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:13,479
Speaker 1: possible that we didn't avert a strike, we just delayed

1321
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:16,840
Speaker 1: one and your point about how hard it is to

1322
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:20,320
Speaker 1: know how the full membership is feeling is a really

1323
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:22,400
Speaker 1: good one, an important one to remember, and it's something

1324
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:26,639
Speaker 1: you pick up covering, you know, covering strike negotiation after

1325
01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 1: strike negotiation, because as you say, the most militant workers

1326
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 1: are also happen to be the ones that are most

1327
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:37,880
Speaker 1: likely to be talking to reporters, and so you know,

1328
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 1: you're not a mill to worker worth your salt if

1329
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 1: you don't trash whatever deal is made like as soon

1330
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:45,400
Speaker 1: as it's as soon as it's struck, and so you're

1331
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 1: right that there. You know, when you first start coming,

1332
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:49,719
Speaker 1: you say, oh, well the workers I'm hearing from absolutely

1333
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 1: hate this deal. This thing's going down, and then you

1334
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:54,720
Speaker 1: see it get ratified by seventy or eighty percent, You're like, well,

1335
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:57,120
Speaker 1: what what happened here? So you're you're I think you're

1336
01:14:57,200 --> 01:14:59,640
Speaker 1: you're very right to to to say that, you know,

1337
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 1: we we don't know. Now, the union is arguing that

1338
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 1: these moves in the direction that you talked about, these

1339
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:11,040
Speaker 1: these modest, kind of almost laughable moves, are actually significant

1340
01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 1: because they set a precedent like that the the the

1341
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 1: companies had resisted negotiating over days off for forever, like

1342
01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:21,120
Speaker 1: that was a red line for them, Like, that's up

1343
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:24,320
Speaker 1: to us, you will, you cannot negotiate over over six days.

1344
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:29,640
Speaker 1: And so breaking that red line and getting this concession

1345
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 1: around hospitalization, which maybe you could tweak to, you know,

1346
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:35,519
Speaker 1: you could you know, tweak internally to say that that

1347
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:40,280
Speaker 1: that's urgent care. So if you go to CVS, that counts.

1348
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 1: So you can't fire me because look, here's my receipt

1349
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:46,080
Speaker 1: I went down to urgent care at CBS that the

1350
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:48,120
Speaker 1: union is saying, this is a this is a great

1351
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:51,799
Speaker 1: step forward because we broke their will on this question

1352
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 1: of whether we can negotiate around this. So let's ratify

1353
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:56,800
Speaker 1: this contract and then when the next contract comes up,

1354
01:15:57,280 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 1: now these things are on the table and we can

1355
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:02,880
Speaker 1: negotiate around them. Also, a lot of money was thrown

1356
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:05,759
Speaker 1: at workers like because that's how much they care about

1357
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:08,439
Speaker 1: this corporate strategy of stripping you know, the workforce to

1358
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:11,640
Speaker 1: the bone. They'd rather give raises and give give you know,

1359
01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:15,840
Speaker 1: ratification bonuses than that actually negotiate around time off. So

1360
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:17,640
Speaker 1: what do you think of the union's argument to its

1361
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:22,000
Speaker 1: members that that by setting this precedent, that they've that

1362
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 1: that it's a significant enough victory that it ought to

1363
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:28,160
Speaker 1: be ratified. So it's a great point and and you know,

1364
01:16:28,200 --> 01:16:33,360
Speaker 1: an important one for folks to consider, right, because yeah,

1365
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:38,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it is significant that the rail carriers actually

1366
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:43,000
Speaker 1: budged even you know, a centimeter on bargaining over scheduling

1367
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:46,720
Speaker 1: and attendance policies, right, because that has really been the

1368
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:50,800
Speaker 1: core of the you know, negotiate the stall negotiations that

1369
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 1: have been going on for two and a half years.

1370
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:56,559
Speaker 1: And speaking of which, that's another point that that is

1371
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 1: important to note is I think what a lot of

1372
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 1: rail workers you know, would say, and what a lot

1373
01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:04,479
Speaker 1: of them have been telling me, is that there is

1374
01:17:04,520 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 1: a significant difference between what is written on paper and

1375
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:11,720
Speaker 1: what happens in practice with these policies. Right. So the

1376
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 1: wage increase, it's you know, the deal that was reached

1377
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,320
Speaker 1: is being hailed as a historic wage increase for workers

1378
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:24,040
Speaker 1: on the railroads twenty four percent increase compounded from NAUNTIL

1379
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four including yearly bonuses when you you know,

1380
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 1: average in inflation and stuff like that. And you factor

1381
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:37,040
Speaker 1: in the fact that the unions have had essentially a astalled,

1382
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:40,599
Speaker 1: nullified contract and have been working without an updated contract

1383
01:17:40,640 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 1: for like two to three years, right, that is the

1384
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 1: the last period at which you know, the wage increase counted,

1385
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:49,759
Speaker 1: so like they've been going without those for these past

1386
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 1: couple of years, so that kind of like you know,

1387
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 1: makes the numbers seem a little bit bigger. You know,

1388
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 1: Like again this is kind of in the weeds. But

1389
01:17:57,160 --> 01:17:59,479
Speaker 1: the thing that I would really kind of say from

1390
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:03,160
Speaker 1: what I'm here from workers is that, yes, the precedent

1391
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 1: is important, but the crisis is here and you know

1392
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:09,720
Speaker 1: this it does. This is like really like throwing a

1393
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:13,600
Speaker 1: pebble at a tank, because you know, the past precedents

1394
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:17,200
Speaker 1: that were set that allowed the rail carriers to continue

1395
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:22,920
Speaker 1: forward with this cost cutting, profit maximizing, service diminishing, you know,

1396
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:26,639
Speaker 1: like a policy that has taken root across the Class

1397
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:29,720
Speaker 1: one freight railroads, Like this is already ruined, you know,

1398
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:33,120
Speaker 1: the supply chain, it's already ruined, you know, the job itself,

1399
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:36,320
Speaker 1: to the point that workers are already quitting in record numbers.

1400
01:18:36,360 --> 01:18:40,120
Speaker 1: Because what rail carriers say on paper often doesn't translate

1401
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:42,519
Speaker 1: to how what workers experience in practice. I'll give you

1402
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:46,599
Speaker 1: one example. In the current tentative agreement, this is again

1403
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:48,479
Speaker 1: very much in the weeds. But there's something you may

1404
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:52,559
Speaker 1: hear workers bring up, which is the automated bid scheduling system.

1405
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:55,160
Speaker 1: This is a system by which you know, like workers

1406
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 1: submit their requests for days off. Seniority plays a fan

1407
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:03,080
Speaker 1: into it. Again, I won't go into the details, but

1408
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:05,519
Speaker 1: essentially one of the examples that was given to me

1409
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:08,640
Speaker 1: is that when you utilize this system and you know,

1410
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:12,880
Speaker 1: you sort of choose which you know, lines you're gonna

1411
01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:15,600
Speaker 1: run when you're gonna be able to take your you know,

1412
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:18,800
Speaker 1: vacation or days off, what may happen is like your

1413
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:21,559
Speaker 1: vacation may be set to start on a Saturday, but

1414
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 1: you get called in for a job on a Friday

1415
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:27,599
Speaker 1: and you don't get back home until like late Sunday.

1416
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:30,800
Speaker 1: You don't get that doesn't push your vacation time back.

1417
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:34,320
Speaker 1: That counts like in your vacation time. And so you know,

1418
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:38,439
Speaker 1: it's because of the frantic scheduling, the unpredictable scheduling and

1419
01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:40,720
Speaker 1: all the delays and so on and so forth, that

1420
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:44,240
Speaker 1: you may not actually get what you know, the contract says,

1421
01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:47,320
Speaker 1: and you may lose out on vacation time. You may

1422
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:51,280
Speaker 1: not get approved time off even if you submitted the request. So,

1423
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:54,679
Speaker 1: as Ron cam and co of Railroad Workers United loves

1424
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 1: to say, the devil is really in the details, and

1425
01:19:57,080 --> 01:19:58,639
Speaker 1: there are a lot of details to go over here,

1426
01:19:58,640 --> 01:20:00,720
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what the rank file is going to

1427
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:03,280
Speaker 1: be doing over the course of the next couple of weeks. Yeah,

1428
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:07,639
Speaker 1: and Max, what is the timeline that we're looking at?

1429
01:20:09,280 --> 01:20:11,799
Speaker 1: So this is kind of again where it gets Harry.

1430
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 1: Is there multiple overlapping timelines right now? So the smart

1431
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:19,519
Speaker 1: TD tenetive agreement. Again, this is one of the two

1432
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:24,320
Speaker 1: largest unions representing workers on the freight railroads, so they

1433
01:20:24,479 --> 01:20:28,479
Speaker 1: have a timeline right now of sort of reviewing the

1434
01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:31,240
Speaker 1: tenetive agreement. They will be able to kind of submit

1435
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:35,920
Speaker 1: formal questions to the rail carriers in a couple of weeks,

1436
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:40,760
Speaker 1: and the voting process for the membership is expected to

1437
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,200
Speaker 1: take the place over the course of a few weeks

1438
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:47,439
Speaker 1: beginning later this month. However, as I said, we already

1439
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:50,599
Speaker 1: have two of the craft unions that have voted to ratify,

1440
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:53,800
Speaker 1: but the Machinists have voted not to ratify, and so

1441
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:56,439
Speaker 1: that kicks the timeline for the I think the Machinists

1442
01:20:56,479 --> 01:21:01,160
Speaker 1: are currently have the next timeline to FI coming up,

1443
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:04,599
Speaker 1: and if they decide to reject it, that could trigger

1444
01:21:04,640 --> 01:21:07,120
Speaker 1: a national rail shutdown, because that's kind of what happened

1445
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:09,920
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two. It wasn't all the unions that

1446
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:12,800
Speaker 1: went on strike. In fact, it was one carrier who

1447
01:21:12,840 --> 01:21:17,080
Speaker 1: initiated lockouts, and so the rest of the unions you know,

1448
01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:20,120
Speaker 1: couldn't you know, cross picket lines and couldn't get into

1449
01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:24,960
Speaker 1: their terminals, and so that triggered a you know, railroad

1450
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 1: wide shutdown even though it was initiated by one carrier.

1451
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:32,559
Speaker 1: This could happen this time around where if one union

1452
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:36,640
Speaker 1: rejects the contract, the tenet of agreement, and decides to

1453
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:40,400
Speaker 1: go on strike, that will effectively trigger a railroad wide

1454
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:43,479
Speaker 1: strike because the other unions have clauses in their contract

1455
01:21:43,479 --> 01:21:45,880
Speaker 1: that say they will not cross a picket line if

1456
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:47,880
Speaker 1: they feel is hazardous to them. So you could in

1457
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:50,680
Speaker 1: effect have, you know, a national rail shutdown if one

1458
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:53,040
Speaker 1: union votes to go on strike right now. So the

1459
01:21:53,080 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 1: next month or two is going to be very interesting. Well, Max,

1460
01:21:57,040 --> 01:21:59,280
Speaker 1: thank you so much for the update, and again Max's

1461
01:21:59,280 --> 01:22:02,599
Speaker 1: book Work of Living very much worth watching. Max Alvarez,

1462
01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:04,600
Speaker 1: editor in chief of the Real News Network, thank you

1463
01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:08,599
Speaker 1: so much. For joining us. Thanks guys. It's so interesting

1464
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:10,880
Speaker 1: because the media really just wanted to move on right

1465
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:14,400
Speaker 1: the deal was reached, and they just this week ducked out,

1466
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 1: we're good with this, blush their hands of it. The

1467
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:20,360
Speaker 1: Biden administration's good with it. We're good with it, and

1468
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:22,880
Speaker 1: they may it may work out, we'll see. But they

1469
01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:26,120
Speaker 1: also only jumped in when the Biden when the deadline

1470
01:22:26,200 --> 01:22:28,640
Speaker 1: was like set into a crunch time. And it's one

1471
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:30,880
Speaker 1: of the ways that like people on the left will

1472
01:22:30,920 --> 01:22:34,200
Speaker 1: sometimes complain about the media being right wing, and the

1473
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:36,880
Speaker 1: point is generally taken on foreign policy, but it's also

1474
01:22:36,920 --> 01:22:39,840
Speaker 1: taken on labor issues. And I will say to see

1475
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:43,160
Speaker 1: President Biden come in on the side of railroad workers,

1476
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:45,240
Speaker 1: like if you know the history of the railroads and

1477
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:50,519
Speaker 1: particularly democratic presidents, they're much more likely to send in

1478
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:53,240
Speaker 1: the National Guard of the Army to break railroad strikes

1479
01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:56,040
Speaker 1: and kill workers than to call up and yell at

1480
01:22:56,080 --> 01:22:58,680
Speaker 1: railroad bosses. So that was fun to see. It's a

1481
01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:01,400
Speaker 1: new era. It is a new era. Well, thanks everybody

1482
01:23:01,439 --> 01:23:06,000
Speaker 1: for watching as always. Uh Brian Graham, you're a DCBUA

1483
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:09,280
Speaker 1: chief over at the Intercept my newsletter over bad News,

1484
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:13,479
Speaker 1: over at substack. You can check that out. You're substacking. Well,

1485
01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:16,200
Speaker 1: i've been, as I was a proto substack. Oh gee.

1486
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:19,360
Speaker 1: I started the newsletter in like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. Yeah,

1487
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:22,840
Speaker 1: that's before substack came around in twenty seventeen. I used

1488
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:25,920
Speaker 1: to pay like to host every month, yeah, to send

1489
01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:27,880
Speaker 1: the newsletter out, and then substack comes around They're like,

1490
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:31,160
Speaker 1: you can use this for free. Okay, that's good to me.

1491
01:23:31,360 --> 01:23:34,000
Speaker 1: That beats paying. Yeah. So yeah, so I've been. I've

1492
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:36,160
Speaker 1: been actually I've had had it over at substack for

1493
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:38,920
Speaker 1: like five years now. To check out bad news over

1494
01:23:38,960 --> 01:23:42,840
Speaker 1: at substack, you can check out Federalist Radio Hour, where

1495
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:46,000
Speaker 1: I am every day. We're so grateful to everybody for

1496
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:49,200
Speaker 1: when is that every day? Like when's it on? Or

1497
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:52,960
Speaker 1: is this just yeah, just uploaded Monday through Friday. Yeah,

1498
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:55,880
Speaker 1: five days a week. A daily podcast is a lot

1499
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:59,880
Speaker 1: of work, as Sager and Crystal No, and it's you know,

1500
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:02,800
Speaker 1: it's it's it's weird here radio, and I think that

1501
01:24:03,120 --> 01:24:05,960
Speaker 1: is a time. But it's just it's just the name, okay,

1502
01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:08,800
Speaker 1: but it is like booking and guests every day is

1503
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:11,960
Speaker 1: a whole thing. But anyway, and you can see some

1504
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:13,640
Speaker 1: of our well, I'll have some of the people we

1505
01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:16,559
Speaker 1: talked to here at counterpoints on the show to sort

1506
01:24:16,560 --> 01:24:19,320
Speaker 1: of even go into more depth. So that's always fun.

1507
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:22,120
Speaker 1: But really, thank you so much everybody for listening. Make

1508
01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:25,240
Speaker 1: sure you're you're liking and subscribing everywhere you download your

1509
01:24:25,240 --> 01:24:28,639
Speaker 1: podcasts over on YouTube. We really appreciate it. We're having

1510
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:31,920
Speaker 1: so much fun here. We're so we're so thankful to

1511
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:35,440
Speaker 1: Sager Crystal for letting us have these chairs on Fridays.

1512
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:37,840
Speaker 1: We should mess something up in the studio, just like

1513
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:41,559
Speaker 1: start changing small things over time. That's a good idea.

1514
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:46,360
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Just leaving joints and soccer share Callie

1515
01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:50,880
Speaker 1: Cops on him. Everybody, have a great weekend. Don't do

1516
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:53,639
Speaker 1: anything soccer wouldn't do. See you next week.