1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M hello, 4 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: and welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 5 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: my name is Noel. They call me Ben. You are you? 6 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: And that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. So, guys, 7 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: how we feel it? Feeling good? Pretty good, feeling good, 8 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: a little um, a little I don't know, worried, trepidacious, Yeah, 9 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: feeling something just weighing on me because the research that 10 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: we've been doing for this episode we're about to record 11 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: it gets into the deep dark levels of your soul almost, yeah, 12 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: you know. Whenever we go into an examination of history, 13 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: what we find is that although history is often portrayed 14 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: as a concrete, inarguable thing, it's much more like a 15 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: conversation and at times an argument between narratives. You have 16 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: to mention the other to the saying about history is 17 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: written by the victors or whatever. So a lot of 18 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: revisionism going on, depending on, you know, the perspective that 19 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: you're looking at. And in the history of the exploration 20 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: of where we come from, you know, of the mysteries 21 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: that surround the origins of humanity, and it always brings 22 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: to mind one of my favorite William Faulkner quotes. Uh. 23 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: He said that the past isn't over, it isn't even past. 24 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: And I think we forget how often history in the 25 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: world we live in is a palamp sessed. A palamp 26 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: tessed is just the fancy word for a thing that 27 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: a lot of monasteries used to do when paper was 28 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: very expensive and rare, or they were using scrolls, they 29 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: would or vellum, I guess, instead of buying more paper 30 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: to write something. What they would do is they would 31 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: erase what was written earlier, and they would write over 32 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: it and fast forward several centuries. Historians and researchers found 33 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: out that it was possible to read the earlier copies, 34 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: the parts of history that had literally been overwritten through 35 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: the tactile clues, just the impressions that the earlier pens 36 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: or quills made on the physical paper. And a lot 37 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: of times when we look at history, we're exploring different 38 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: versions of history or arguments we're using in a in 39 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: a in a very strange way, we're using clues that 40 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: are like the indentations of those earlier stories on physical paper. 41 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: We're finding references that don't make sense. We're connecting dots 42 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: that have not been connected. And this is regardless of 43 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: how you feel about a specific case. This is one 44 00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: of the most important parts of historical scholarship. So today 45 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: we are we're not just talking about history for frenzies. No, no, no, 46 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: Today we are diving into one of the I would say, 47 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: I would say, one of the most prominent, uh, one 48 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: of the most prominent conflicts in historical narratives. And we 49 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: are not doing it alone. We have with us today 50 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: a very important person that exists within the narrative that 51 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 1: we will be exploring, and I think the best thing 52 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: possibly to do is just to introduce her and then 53 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: let her tell us about herself. So let's do it. 54 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: So welcome to the show, Tansy Pagent. Thank you, Hi, welcome, welcome. 55 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about yourself, Tansy. Why 56 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: are you here today? So I'm here today to talk 57 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: a little bit about what my father did, um what 58 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: he dedicated a lot of his life too, and that 59 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: was the exploration of history and looking for new ways 60 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: to view history, new ways to think about history. Rather 61 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: than just believing the perceived views of the massive. Yes. 62 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: In ninety two, U Tansy, your father Michael Begent wrote 63 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: a world changing book called Holy Blood, Holy Grail, and 64 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: earlier when you had reached out to us, this was 65 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: this was thrilling for us because this is a book 66 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: that even if people haven't read it or haven't heard 67 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: of it, people are probably very familiar with the idea. 68 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: Here we checked out a copy of the book and 69 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: this is if we're gonna let the badger out of 70 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: the bag here, already we've got more than one bag. 71 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: We've got We're we've got many badgers, right. Uh. This 72 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: book focuses on the an exploration of what the Holy 73 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: Grail in Biblical lore actually was, and it delves into 74 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: the early days of the Christian Church. It delves into 75 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: nothing less than the secret history of Christ. Yes, and 76 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: specifically whether or not Jesus actually died when he, you know, 77 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: historically died, at least what the texts say, and then 78 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: whether or not he actually had a bloodline that continued 79 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: on in France. I believe in the Maravingian line a 80 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: fascinating stuff. And Dancy, can you tell us a little 81 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: bit more more about it. Yeah, I mean to start, really, 82 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: you have to think about, you know what, what do 83 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: you believe? Do you think that a Jewish man would 84 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: have married, had children and attempted to gain the throne, 85 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: or would have been born to a virgin, walked on 86 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: order and risen from the dead. So I think when 87 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: you think about history, you have to think about these things. 88 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: The book begins basically with a priest called Sonia who 89 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: took residents of a church at rend the chateau, and 90 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: he discovered something which amassed him a great fortune, and 91 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: my father and two of his companions sought to find 92 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: out what the source of his treasure was. This led 93 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: him on a journey through history and the question that 94 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: I rose before or you know, what is your belief? 95 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: That stimulated this whole um, this whole journey. Really he 96 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: wanted to know the man behind Jesus, and in doing 97 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: that he looked at how we have translated some of 98 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: the early texts. And you have something called san Grael, 99 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: which people translated as the holy grail. But if you 100 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: move the g it becomes sang real, which is holy blood. 101 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: And that was something that my father did and explored 102 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,559 Speaker 1: through that that actually Jesus could have had a child 103 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: and that that child existed and his bloodline existed throughout history. Yeah, 104 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: there's a there's a quotation in the book um that 105 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: that follows this where uh one thing one thing that 106 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: the authors do, as as you mentioned, Tans Michael wrote 107 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: this along with his colleagues Henry Lincoln and Richard Lee. Um. 108 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: They say, just as you said, that san gral, san 109 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: greal could translate to royal or holy blood. And the 110 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: authors say in in this book they say in itself 111 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: such wordplay might be provocative but hardly conclusive. Taken in 112 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: conjunction with the emphasis on genealogy and lineage, however, there's 113 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: not much room for doubt. And they go on to 114 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: explore some of the blood related lore surrounding the idea 115 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: of the Grail, the cup that caught uh Jesus's blood 116 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: right becoming becoming the Holy Grail. And one of the 117 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: arguments here is that instead this is, as as you said, Tansey, 118 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: a bloodline. And I really appreciate the point you're making 119 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: about the about the the actual belief system, which is 120 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: more likely, I mean, like for a man to have 121 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: married and sought some sort of influence and power or 122 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: for some of these more mystical interpretations. And again it's 123 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: about faith. It's about what which one you see as being, 124 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, the most tied to your belief system, I suppose, 125 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: But it's interesting to explore both sides for sure. Um 126 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: So what when you talk about him, the idea of him, 127 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: you know, ascending to the throne or like having some 128 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: sort of bloodline, what what does that look like? What 129 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: would that actually functionally? What purpose would that serve? So 130 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: there is the thought that Jesus was from a sort 131 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: of Solomon and David Lyne, which were already entitled to 132 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: the to the King of Cheese and to that throne. 133 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: And so when he was thought of died or when 134 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: he lived on, the plan was to assert that bloodline 135 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: back onto the throne. So they had an entitlement to 136 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: that throne, and so his bloodline had an entitlement to 137 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: the throne, and the plan was to protect that bloodline. 138 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: And then you have these sort of secret societies that 139 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: come up throughout history that were potentially the quest with 140 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: the protection of this bloodline m HM. And the main 141 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 1: one discussed in at least one of the main ones 142 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: discussed in the book is UM a group known as 143 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: the Priory of Ssion, which is you know, how there 144 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: are questions as to whether or not this group actually 145 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: existed in the way that is outlined in the book. UM. 146 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that and about 147 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: some of the kind of questions regarding some of this 148 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: history and whether we're looking at, you know, things that 149 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: have been gleaned from documents that were not entirely accurate, 150 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: or if this was more of a twentieth century creation. 151 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: You know, a lot of that kind of came up 152 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: after the book was published, and I know you're father 153 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: was working with information that was, you know, UM, seemed 154 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: to be accurate at the time. But where do you 155 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: kind of land on, you know, what what is and 156 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: isn't maybe entirely accurate in the book. The thing is 157 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: that at the time it resigned, he needed two and 158 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: my father was relying on the information that was available 159 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: to him then. But at the same time, he doesn't 160 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: just make an assumption based on one piece of evidence 161 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: or one, you know, one document. He takes a multitude 162 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: of documents and together creates this theory UM. And so 163 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: the Priory of Scion and the Order of Zion, they 164 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: came about, you know, whether or not that they existed 165 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: in the way that he described at the time. You know, 166 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: there was actually the amount of zion back in Jerusalem, 167 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of links and coincidences that 168 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: make it seem plausible that there was some kind of 169 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: group Um. And whether or not, you know, the Dostrian 170 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: secrets has been more evidence has changed or documents have changed. 171 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: He didn't just rely on one aspect. And at the 172 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: same time, what he came up with was conjecture, there 173 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: isn't any you know, we don't have any solid proof 174 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: of really anything that far back. So you have to 175 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: just go on, you know, bits of information that you have, 176 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: tie it together and see whether what you come up 177 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: with makes sense and is a viable theory, which he 178 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: still believed and maintained at the end that it was 179 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: he finded then. And also, you know, had the belief 180 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: that Jesus didn't die on the cross Um and that 181 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: came through with later books that he came back to 182 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: speaking of there are so many novels that your father 183 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: wrote and about such a diverse topics. We're just looking 184 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 1: through some of them about um, I mean, going back 185 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: to a similar thing the Messianic legacy, the Temple and 186 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 1: the Lodge. When we get into freemasonry, which is something 187 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: will jump into here in a moment um, the Jesus Papers, 188 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: Dead Sea Scrolls, Deception, the Elixir in the Stone, which 189 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: is specifically about alchemy and magic, seems extremely interesting. But 190 00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, I have not read it for this interview, 191 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: but that is definitely on my list. Now, Um, there's 192 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: all racing towards Armageddon is another one that I really 193 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: want to talk about. Um, is it too Is it 194 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: too much to jump gears here? No? I was just 195 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: going to maybe say, what what about all of these topics, 196 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: these kind of like mystical pursuits fascinated your father so much? 197 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: I mean it seems like it wasn't obviously it is 198 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: a diverse set of topics, but they all do kind 199 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: of tie into this quest for the unknown and like, 200 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: you know, some of the same things that drive us 201 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: here on the show, I mean, growing up with them. 202 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: What what were your perceptions of what drove him to 203 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: these kind of like quests. I guess well, I think 204 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: what drove him to these quests was the pursuit of truth. 205 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: He always used to maintain that, you know, you always 206 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: need to ask questions, you always these lit for answers, 207 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: and you need to fear no one in your pursuit 208 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: of truth. And so I grew up being very open 209 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: to a variety of different ideas and not willing to 210 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: just take something at face value. He was also very 211 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: interested in experience, and so he gave me a copy 212 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: of the Hermetica you know when a few years ago, 213 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: and he just he was very interested in in the 214 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: whole you know, what, what actually made up existence? Um, 215 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: what was the truth of reality, and what was the 216 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: truth of sort of non reality, the things that we 217 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: can't see. And growing up with that and you know, 218 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: meditating from a young age was really interesting to me 219 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: and has has changed my life. He felt that, you know, 220 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: the most important thing was to know not to take 221 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: anything I guess at face by that if not to 222 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: just be led by what people tell you or what's 223 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: written in scriptures, and to actually experience with yourself. And 224 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: I think that that drove his pursuit in all of 225 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: different his different books, and they all have that sort 226 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: of the link to the mystery, the mystical and one 227 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: thing that I I really appreciate you mentioning the emphasis 228 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: on your father's pursuit and his emphasis on experiential learning 229 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:04,479 Speaker 1: because he did travel widely, and when we're thinking about journeys, 230 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: this makes me think. You know, when I originally started 231 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: reading the book, I thought this is the culmination of 232 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: years of research and work. But in a very real way, 233 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: it was just the beginning of a journey for him. 234 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: Because this, uh, this book became internationally known and became 235 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: the subject of a lot of debate and controversy. So 236 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: I guess my my next question would be, Um, something 237 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: that I've been very curious about after the publication of 238 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: Holy Blood, Holy Grail, what was your what was your 239 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: father's journey in the public sphere like? Because he spoke 240 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: about the book. Uh, he made appearances, Um, he defended 241 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: things right, and I was hoping that you could tell 242 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: us in the audience a little bit more about the 243 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: journey that he took in the in the path the 244 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: publication of this book set him upon. So I guess 245 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: the publication of this book was his first sort of 246 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: real presence in the limelight, and being in that position, 247 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: he got a lot of I guess, inquiries and criticism, 248 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: and I think he had to very much sort of 249 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: change the way that he presented himself. But he was 250 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: always a very private man. He had had a very 251 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: difficult childhood, and so he wasn't averse to this sort 252 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: of controversy and the negativity that ensued coming out with 253 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: that sort of information. What it did, I think, you know, 254 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: they were all very taken aback by how successful and 255 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: popular the book was and became. That wasn't his initial idea. 256 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: They just you know, it's a five year project that 257 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: they released, and they had no idea that it would 258 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: be such a success. And I think what that did 259 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: was it you know, authenticated to him as a as 260 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: an author and a historian and a researcher, and that 261 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: led him into the realms of a lot of other 262 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: books and investigating things, and he was, you know, in 263 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: my head, he was very much real life, so Harrison 264 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: Ford character, Indiana Jones, Jones, you know, he in order 265 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: to do a lot of the research, you know, he 266 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: used to take us all around the world. We'd go 267 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: to Israel and Scotland and the graves and churches. And 268 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: it changed the way that he was in his life. 269 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: He was a photographer before then, and so too to 270 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: be in that realm of of writing books, of investigating, 271 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: of being in the public eye. You know, it changed 272 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: the way that he acted and he was, and it 273 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: made him more committed to pursuing the truth and the 274 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: ideas behind things and the research behind it. But he 275 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: was a very private man, he know, he did. He 276 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: kept himself very separate because he received a lot of 277 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: death threats. Your your father was a war photographer in Laos, 278 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: I believe, during the Vietnam War, and I wonder how 279 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: much that experience led him even further into this realm 280 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: of wanting to question the truth and or question what 281 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: is presented as truth. So during his time and now 282 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: he went to be a war photographer. But when he arrived, 283 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: the two men that he was supposed to meet had 284 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:15,239 Speaker 1: been unfortunately blown up. So he took to photographing on 285 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: his own accord, and through that he saw some horrific sites, 286 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: and he was actually approached by the CIA, and they 287 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: what they were doing at the time was they were 288 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 1: taking and buying a lot of the photographs of all 289 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 1: photographers so that they couldn't be shown to the general public. 290 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: He refused to sell them, so he still has a 291 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: lot of these photographs and he also saw some things 292 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: that were absolutely sort of stricken off from history that 293 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: was said would never happen, and he saw those firsthands. 294 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: So I think that that realization that what you know 295 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: the public is fed is not necessarily what is actually happening, 296 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: And I think that led him into into his investigations 297 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: of Holy Blood and Holy Grail and all the others 298 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: that came over to No, No, that's that's that's interesting. 299 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: I kind of thought that's where you were heading when 300 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: you're what you were saying. They tried to buy the 301 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: photosop him, because even now you hear accounts like on 302 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: public radio of war photographers who you know, like they're 303 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: asked to turn their cameras off at certain times, you know, 304 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: and only photographed certain things. So you really do get 305 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: this skewed perspective of something as horrific as a war, 306 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: and when it's managed by the people in charge, you 307 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: really are it's it's a very easy way to be 308 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: led astray into thinking what people want you to think 309 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: rather than what is actually true. And so I could 310 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: totally see how that experience would lead him to really 311 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: want to take deep dives into stuff they don't want 312 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 1: you to know. Uh, and that's that's a that's a 313 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: very good point because although it was suppressed from the 314 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: public eye at the time, later evidence merge that shows 315 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: the US conducted, at least just the US without even 316 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: counting European powers, conducted extend cive illegal operations or black 317 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: ops allow where numerous minds still remain active land mines 318 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: and Cambodia and Myanmar or Burma. Uh this is not 319 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: These are not theories, and I feel like it's very 320 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: important to establish that for the listening audiences are proven facts. 321 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: The most made up thing about at least the US 322 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: is involvement in Vietnam was the Gulf of Tonkin incidents. 323 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: I think it's so cool and interesting that you kind 324 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: of cast your father in this light of this like 325 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: real life Indiana Jones character, because something that we're going 326 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: to get you next is his sort of embroilment, I 327 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: guess with Dan Brown and the Da Vinci Code books, 328 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: and that character is sort of cast in a similar light. 329 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: Uh So, I think we should talk a little bit 330 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: more about that after we take a quick break and 331 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: we're back. Before the break, Noel said something in a 332 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: series of phrases that I'm sure piqued the interest of 333 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: the audience members there, and that is the Da Vinci Code. 334 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: I guarantee you guys that somebody, several people probably were 335 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: listening to the beginning of this interview and going, huh, 336 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: that story sounds familiar, that idea of a secret bloodline 337 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: of Christ. Uh. And it is protected by some sort 338 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: of mystical, esoteric secret society. And for some reason Tom 339 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: Hanks is involved. Well, yeah, I mean he's he's a 340 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: really charming guy. He's a good looking man. He's evolved 341 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 1: in a lot of things. I think it's it's mostly 342 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: his affecting. He's just very generous, uh, with his personality. 343 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: I would I would have. I would have enjoyed The 344 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: Da Vinci Code as a film. I would have enjoyed 345 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: it more if it had been Tom Hanks's David S. 346 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: Pumpkins exploring it. If only, if only? But but we uh, 347 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: we we bring this up because this was one of 348 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: the biggest controversies. Correct Dan Brown published this book three. 349 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: I want to say that might not be correct, but 350 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: I think that is so. Decades later, Holy Blood, Holy 351 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: Grail is already out internationally known again. It's the subject 352 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: of no small amount of controversy, right, and it has 353 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: many proponents as many opponents. Dan Brown comes out with 354 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: the da Vinci Code and says, so people around the 355 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: world go, hey, you based that off of maybe not 356 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 1: quite plagiarized, but you based it off of Holy Blood 357 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 1: and Holy Grail, to which Dan Brown replied, no, uh, 358 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: not just Dan Brown the publisher. And it became a thing. 359 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: And so our our first question for this, after that 360 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: long introduction with this has said the scene, our first 361 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: question regarding this tansy is could you give us an 362 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: account of how this transpired and and what actually happened 363 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: with the arguments that Dan Brown and his publishers were making. Yeah. So, essentially, 364 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 1: Dan Brown promoted himself as a bit of a pseudo historian, 365 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: and a lot of people felt that he was the 366 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: one who had done all the research for his book. Essentially, 367 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 1: what he was saying is that he'd never really he'd 368 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: never read The Holy Brood and the Holy Grail, or 369 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: if he had, he'd only sor dabbled with it. What 370 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: transpired in court was that he had actually had the 371 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: book open at the time of writing the central parts 372 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: of his book. Lee t being is an anagram of 373 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: Lee and agent Um, so that character was sort of 374 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: based on the works I guess of the Holy Brood 375 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: and Holy Grail and bt thing takes the copy of 376 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: the book off the shelf. What my dad felt was 377 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: that this wasn't enough of an acknowledgment of his work 378 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: that he spent five years and you know, with others doing, 379 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: and that Dan Brown had taken hold of this information 380 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: and recast it and stated it as his own and 381 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: didn't essentially say that much of it had come from 382 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: the Holy Blood and Holy Grail. Gail Reebuck, who is 383 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: head a Rundom House, also was there and she, you know, 384 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: it was that she He was actually suing the publishers, 385 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: not Dan Brown himself. They were also his publishers and 386 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: essentially did everything that they could to bankrupt my father 387 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: throughout it by hiring QCs and essentially trying to make 388 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: him stop pursuing the case. The What would also came 389 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: through was the fact that actually Dan Brown didn't do 390 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: any of his own research. It all came from blithe 391 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: his wife. His wife did all of the research for 392 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: every one of his books. He didn't actually do any 393 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: of them. So the judge commented that he was basically 394 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: a passive observer in terms of the collection of that 395 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: historical material. He just created the story around it. But unfortunately, 396 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: because of a technical error that our lawyers made early 397 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: on in the case, that ended up being a substant 398 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: of issue in in why we lost. But you know, 399 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: the judges, especially in the course of appeal, held up 400 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: the book and said that the title is the Holy 401 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: Blood and the Holy Grail. It's quite clear that that 402 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: down Brown has copied, you know that that aspect of it. 403 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: And you know through that as well as we had 404 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: the judge who created his own Smithy code in the judgment, 405 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: and he has since been considered a very appallogy judge 406 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: and he's is his own bias to to pursue his 407 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: own names. So your father and Mr Lee then appealed 408 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: the judgment, right, yes, because of the fact that actually 409 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: the the original judge, Justice Peter Smith, in his judgment 410 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: it was very confused and he made a lot of 411 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: statements that suggested that my father was hiding money and 412 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the reasoning behind his his judgment is 413 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: not actually based on on you know, the evidence in 414 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: the case. We also felt that Dan Brown lied from 415 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: the beginning of the case until the end, so he 416 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: continually said, I don't know, I don't remember, and he 417 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: didn't remember anything he'd done. Two years before, all of 418 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: his work and all of his research was destroyed in 419 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: a flood, so both of his computers were destroyed in 420 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: a flood. But my father, who wrote the book twenty 421 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: years before, could recount pretty much everything that came about 422 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: with writing the book. So we felt that the judge 423 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: wrongly allowed that, you know, the fact that Dan Brown 424 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: had sworn under oath and had lied under oath, and 425 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: felt that that was a big issue. The fact that 426 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: lithe Brown wouldn't appear was a big issue, and the 427 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: fact that we felt that it was quite clear that 428 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: Dan Brown had used a lot of information in the 429 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: Holy Blood the Holy Grail and hadn't correctly attributed it 430 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: to my father, And then that's why we took it 431 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: to the Court of appeal. And in the end, this 432 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: really did cost your father, your family um a lot 433 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: of money and I'm sure emotional distress. And you know 434 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: that I can't even imagine drawing something like that out. 435 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: And obviously your father was one to stick by his guns, 436 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: and I'm sure he felt very passionate about defending his work. 437 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: Obviously it wasn't necessarily about making a ton of money, 438 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: as it was kind of defending his name. Am I 439 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: characterizing that correctly? Yes, that's right. I mean he took 440 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: the case before the success of the DaVinci Code, so 441 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,719 Speaker 1: he didn't realize the success that it would be. It was. 442 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: It was actually just to be awarded the necessary connection 443 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: to the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, and the 444 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: fact that he had spent five years and with others 445 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: writing that book. That was why he pursued the case. 446 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: So regardless of whether somebody believes this uh, this account 447 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: or this exploration, regardless of whether somebody disagrees with the 448 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: idea is presented right by Michael Agent, there is an 449 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: arguable connection between the da Vinci Code and this book. 450 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: We have a quote that will read quickly here this is. 451 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the the heart of the 452 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: hypothesis summed up. Okay, Perhaps the Magdalen, that elusive woman 453 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: in the gospels, was in fact Jesus's wife. Perhaps their 454 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: union produced offspring. After the crucifixion, Perhaps the Magdalen, with 455 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: at least one child, was smuggled to Gaul where established 456 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: Jewish communities had already existed, and where in consequence she 457 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: might have found a refuge. Perhaps there was, in short, 458 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: a hereditary bloodline descended directly from Jesus. This is like, 459 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: there's no way to say that these are not connected. 460 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: It just seems very um. It seems implausible that an 461 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: author like Dan Brown, uh could have in a vacuum 462 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: written that kind of thing. One of the most compelling 463 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: things that came out of the ruling was the way 464 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: the judge viewed the work Holy Blood, Holy Grail. And 465 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that it was said to not 466 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: be Dan Brown's work was not plagiarizing your father's was 467 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: because your father's work was like this historical work rather 468 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: than fiction. Yeah. So what they said essentially was that 469 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: you can't copyright historical facts, and even those facts that 470 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: have a shroud of creativity cannot be copyrighted. So they 471 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: felt that what my father had done was he'd taken fact, 472 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: he shrouded it in this creativity that then that shroud 473 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: could not be copyrighted. It actually reduced copyrighting laws to 474 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: basically things like imagery or completely unrelated sort of ideas 475 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: that were very sinal. It made it so that you 476 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: could quite easily copy someone else's work if it was 477 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: a sort of a general a general creation based on facts. Wow. 478 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: Just circling back a little bit about the controversial nature 479 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: of this work, whether you know, I mean, obviously making 480 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: it calling it nonfiction could potentially make it potentially more 481 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: controversial than having it be fiction. Um, but there are 482 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: there were issues of I think the Roman Catholic Church 483 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: banning the book in certain circles and you know, calling 484 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: for it to be protracted or in some way as 485 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: a work of historic history because basically it's it says, 486 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: it goes against their entire doctrine. You know that Jesus 487 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: Christ had a son and married, and it's a totally 488 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: different interpretation of the way they would have us see 489 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,479 Speaker 1: that figure. I'm wondering that specifically, how how did that 490 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: manifest itself, this religious kind of zelotry coming at you 491 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: and your family when this book was published. So my 492 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: father received a lot of death threats when we were 493 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,239 Speaker 1: growing up, and he felt he was hugely affected by 494 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: the strength of the aggression of the church. Really, they 495 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: couldn't coordinate, that, they couldn't blend these two ideas. They 496 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: couldn't see you know, Christ being this you know, real 497 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: historical figure that could have had a wife and child, 498 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: and you chose to purely adopt what they've they've taken 499 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: from their dogma and their doctrine. And so you know, 500 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: it was I think in a D three that Jesus 501 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: was proclaimed as this godlike figure in in in Constantinople. Actually, 502 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: if we go back in history, we you know, we 503 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: don't really have a full grasp of history. So what 504 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: is sort of nonfiction and fiction. You know, whether whether 505 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: what he's saying is is too or not, but it's 506 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: just about understanding why he's created it and where it's 507 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: come from. And I think what the Church failed to 508 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: see was that there could be a blend here that 509 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: you could still see this this character of Jesus and 510 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: you know, all his spiritual teachings and the importance of that, 511 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: but still see him as a man, whereas a lot 512 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: of a lot of these people just could not, They 513 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: could not accept it, and they felt that his work, 514 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: whether fiction or not, incited so much interest, and they 515 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: just retaliated against that to such a degree that I 516 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: don't think that my father was quite expecting it at 517 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: the time. Because again for him, it was you know, 518 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: it was conjecture. It was just a theory, and there's 519 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: not many theories that can create that much STU. So 520 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: we felt almost that they were taking maybe they were 521 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,959 Speaker 1: taking a bit of truth from it, and that's why 522 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: they really pushed against it. I say this also isn't 523 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: the first example of this idea of Jesus having married 524 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: Mary Magdalene or having had a relationship with her. There's 525 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, the Martin Scorsese film The Last Temptation of Christ, 526 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: which was based on a novel from the nineteen fifties 527 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: by a Greek author that sets out this scenario more 528 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: and kind of like a storytelling fashion, rather than trying 529 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: to claim that it's based on any kind of historical documents. Um, 530 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: did your father ever consider that work at all when 531 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: he was working on this, or you know, kind of 532 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: was I'm sure he was aware of it. But did 533 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: that play in any way into his interest into seeking 534 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: this out? I'm just wondering. Um, quite possibly he He 535 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: did a lot of research around and would have known 536 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: about all the different texts that were available. Um, he 537 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: he had He never he never said that his very 538 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: specifically to him or to his his colleagues, was that 539 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: Jesus had a wife. It was it was the bloodline 540 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: that came from them. Yeah, and he does he does 541 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: use very careful language in parts of the book when 542 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: we read the summation of that hypothesis. You know, he says, 543 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: perhaps there's indication, you know, at that point when when 544 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: the hypothesis is praised. Uh. He is not telling people 545 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: what to believe. He's putting these thoughts together and then 546 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: continuing an exploration. And Nol, I love that you bring 547 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: up that this they're older beliefs uh, evolving similar things, 548 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: because this goes back as far as um the century 549 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,479 Speaker 1: when people were claiming that part of the Catharist belief 550 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: was that there was an earthly Jesus Christ who also 551 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: had a relationship with Mary Magdalen. But when we when 552 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: we talk about that, we also have to remember, you know, 553 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: this can seem controversial today in UH, but it wasn't 554 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: that long ago when people were literally being murdered for 555 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: saying anything slightly different from the official doctrine of the church. 556 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: I mean in in the span of human history. That's 557 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: like a that was me snapping my fingers. I forgot 558 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,719 Speaker 1: people can't see us well. And and things like that 559 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: are still happening today. Um, not necessarily with the with 560 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church or you know, Christian organizations, but they 561 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: are occurring today, that's true. And uh, we've talked a 562 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: little bit about the way the church reacted, but we 563 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 1: know that many people in academia also reacted adversely to this. 564 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: There were historians who said that, um, they had serious 565 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: problems with the book or they felt that it was uh, 566 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: they felt that it was not doing due diligence to 567 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: other things that they considered historical fact. Now, I do 568 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: want to say at the top here that, uh, Matt Nolan, 569 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: I are not historians unless you guys had a anybody 570 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: have a wild weekend. I mean I watched some great 571 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: courses every now and then. There we go, But we 572 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: we do wanna we do want to ask how how 573 00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: did your father react to the academic country versy surrounding 574 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: this book or the criticisms that he received, so not 575 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: just the ideologically based death threats perhaps, but the the 576 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:16,959 Speaker 1: secular conversations so from the academic community. Um, they what 577 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,800 Speaker 1: essentially his book was considered because it wasn't non fiction 578 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: or fiction. The way that they had written it was 579 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: very different to how a lot of books have been written. 580 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: In you you had to do a sort of a 581 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: set structure in order for it to be a nonfiction, 582 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: or a set structure in order for it to be 583 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: a fiction. But what they wanted to do is they 584 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: wanted to create this this story that brought in fact 585 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: and their interpretation. And a lot of academics found that 586 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: um not their liking, and a lot of historians were 587 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: very critical of his work and the work of Bean Lincoln. 588 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: But the thing is that, you know, my father was 589 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: an incredible researcher. He was very intelligent. He was very 590 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: intellectual and one the most He is one of the 591 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: most intellectual men I have ever met, and most mystical. 592 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: And I haven't found another researcher who has gone to 593 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: the lengths but he went to in order to compile 594 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: the necessary work for all of his books. He would 595 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 1: go down caves, he would he spoke French, and would 596 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: read all sorts of documents. He investigated things to the 597 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: nth degree. And it's easy for a person to criticize work, 598 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: but to actually be the one to write it, to 599 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: be the one to research it, it takes a lot 600 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: of time and a lot of energy and a lot 601 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: of commitment. And what all he was doing was presenting 602 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,439 Speaker 1: facts and an interpretation of potential interpretation of what they were. 603 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: He never tried to make anyone else believe what he found. 604 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: He said, it's up to everyone else to draw their 605 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: own conclusions. And that was his response as well to 606 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: these these other authorities who were trying to sort of 607 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 1: contest the work he did, and he just he stood 608 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: by that. I want to jump into something that we 609 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 1: kind of mentioned early on in this episode. Your father 610 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: was a member of a group that has experienced its 611 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:16,959 Speaker 1: own controversies, and this is the Freemasons. Uh, the Order 612 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: of Freemasonry. He was, at least according to Masonry Today 613 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: dot com, he was a member of Lodge Economy number 614 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: seventy six in Winchester and uh he served as Grand 615 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: Officer in the United Grand Lodge of England. That sounds awesome. 616 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what it means, but it sounds awesome. 617 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: And he also served as an editor of the Masonic 618 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: magazine Freemasonry Today. And if you there's a website that 619 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: exists for that for Freemasonry Today, and you can see 620 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: writing um by your father, and it's very very fascinating stuff. 621 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: Lots of esoteric um. I mean, I guess that's just 622 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: the nature of freemasonry, but lots of very high level 623 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: thinking about consciousness and about religion and the afterlife. And 624 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: I just wonder how much this world that your father 625 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: existed in influenced all the other things and then perhaps 626 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: even new Well. He was very interested in the esoteric, 627 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: and I think that that formulated his own journey in freemasonry. 628 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: There's a lot of Freemasons who disregard a lot of 629 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: the ritual, a lot of the meaning behind behind the 630 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: ritual as well, and I think that his what he 631 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,879 Speaker 1: wanted to do was pursue the esoteric aspects of it. 632 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: He anyone can join freemasonry, it doesn't you don't have 633 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: to be bound by religion. And so he found it 634 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 1: was an amazing melting pot of different people with diverse ideas. 635 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,959 Speaker 1: This single belief in this I guess, in this, this other, 636 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: this other realm, or this oneness that combine that connects 637 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: all of us um. And that's something that he brought 638 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: through from his work and also from who he was 639 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: as a young as a young man, and the experiences 640 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 1: that he had, and he brought that into his into 641 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 1: freemason in his own way and tailored his role as 642 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: editor to incorporate a lot of that. And in my 643 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: own life he got test meditating from a young age. 644 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,399 Speaker 1: He never ever told us to pursue any religion or 645 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: any type of spiritual belief. He would always assert that 646 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: there was many paths to the top of the mountain, 647 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: and we had our choice to pursue whicheveryone we wished. 648 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: I actually started as an atheist. I then became agnostic. 649 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 1: I had my own experiences, and that's when I spoke 650 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: to my father about where I could go from there, 651 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: and he introduced me to a lot of different religions. 652 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: I tried Sukism and Wiccan and Paganism until I realized 653 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: that actually I was my own guide and my own 654 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: path was still the top of amount and I didn't 655 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: have to be part of any religion. And so in 656 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,360 Speaker 1: that way I did. I did find that connection to 657 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: the One and to and you know, he helped me 658 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: in that process, but he was no he was in 659 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: new way. Um A sort of full influence was that 660 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: he let me guide myself. Tansy are you are you 661 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: familiar with Pierre Plantard. He was a figure in kind 662 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: of French politics who was kind of like considered a 663 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: Hoaxter type and you know, sort of like believed in 664 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: certain mystical beliefs as well in a similar way to 665 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: your father. But is he's the one who kind of 666 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: claimed that he was responsible for sort of trumping up 667 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: some of the priory of siren stuff and um, you know, 668 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 1: kind of directly criticized Holy Blood Holy Grail when it 669 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: came out, saying that, you know, it was a work 670 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: of fiction, and he kind of discounted some of the 671 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: texts that it was based on and kind of said 672 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: that he the story basically, but he also has kind 673 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: of been debunked in many ways as well. And it's 674 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: just interesting, you know, he's someone who kind of prided 675 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: themselves on always you know, getting the last laugh. He 676 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: strikes me as that type, as I was just wondering 677 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: if you were familiar with that situation in his role 678 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: in any of this, because and also, like you talk 679 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: about your father being a Mason and kind of having 680 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: this mind and this fascination with the idea of mysticism 681 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: and not necessarily religion, but just more the idea of 682 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: what's beyond the veil, you know, in more of a 683 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,399 Speaker 1: universal kind of sense, like with the Meditation. And one 684 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: of the criticisms I think that's been levied against him 685 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: about this book is that he maybe let some of 686 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: that stand in the way of seeing the facts. And 687 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering how how you might respond to that. 688 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: That was one thing that this Pierre Plantard gentleman said 689 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: is that, you know, he might have allowed himself to 690 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 1: be taken for a ride because he wanted to believe. 691 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 1: And we run into this all the time on our show. 692 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 1: So Pierre Planta was relevant to the holy and the 693 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: Holy Grail, and I think that the work that he 694 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,760 Speaker 1: did there, I think that there was links between between 695 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: that and what my father did. But my father also 696 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 1: had uge amount of other sources, and I think that 697 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: the overarching um idea that he came up with this 698 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 1: holy blood, holy Grail, this this holy blood that ran 699 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: through time, I don't think has a connection to the 700 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 1: mystical um in that sense. And so I don't think 701 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,720 Speaker 1: that actually it did affect his work in that way 702 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: or clouded his judgment. I think he was seeing quite clearly, 703 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: and I don't think it even matters that, you know, 704 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,439 Speaker 1: if Planta was discredited or in any way, I still 705 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: think that his theory stands up to scrutiny. And I 706 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,280 Speaker 1: think again, you know, when you're dealing with historical information, 707 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: you just cannot be sure. So you just have to 708 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: find what seems right to you. And again, you know, 709 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: my father was never trying to tell people what to believe. 710 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,320 Speaker 1: That was not his purpose. He was just presenting facts, 711 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: presenting his interpretation, and providing a theory. Whether you agree 712 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,439 Speaker 1: with him or not, this is up to you. Well, 713 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,280 Speaker 1: so your father was really focusing on that divine world. 714 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: The he called it many things, at least in interviews 715 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 1: that I've heard him speaking about it. It's the whatever 716 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:16,280 Speaker 1: plane exists just beyond this physical one, where every human 717 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 1: being goes to upon death, and from from where every 718 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 1: person comes before they were born. Right. This um a 719 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 1: lot in throughout all these different religions. You have a 720 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: place called heaven or elysium, hades, the duot, there's you know, 721 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: pick a religion, there's in other world. Um. And so 722 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: I'm hearing that perhaps through meditation you personally get to 723 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: experience that at least in some part. Is that something 724 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 1: that anyone listening can can attempt. Absolutely. I'm a meditation 725 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,319 Speaker 1: teacher and I always I try to not bring too 726 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,320 Speaker 1: much of these deep spiritual ideas into my meditation classes, 727 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: but they come in naturally. I think that the actually 728 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: the purpose of meditating and being still you find a 729 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 1: deeper connection to each other and to yourself, and in 730 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: that place of stillness you can start to feel and 731 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: observe a different sense of reality. And whether you wish 732 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: to pursue that or not, I think meditation is an 733 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: incredible skill in tapping into that oneness and the connection 734 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,879 Speaker 1: with us all. So we have several narrative threads going 735 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 1: on right now for this this interview, and we have 736 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: so much stuff to explore, and will be right back 737 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsor. I'd like to explore 738 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: something that we we mentioned earlier. Matt. I believe you 739 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: mentioned uh that Mr Pagent was a prolific author. So 740 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:02,320 Speaker 1: we've explored Holy Blood, Holy Grail and the arguments within. 741 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: But as Matt mentioned earlier in the show, Michael Begent 742 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,479 Speaker 1: did not write just one book. He was quite a 743 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:15,880 Speaker 1: prolific author, and he wrote book that particularly interests me 744 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 1: and probably interests longtime listeners as well, Secret Germany Given, 745 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,840 Speaker 1: which examines the occult practices of the Nazi Party in 746 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: the World War two era. Uh. He also wrote a 747 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 1: book that Matt, you were very interested in. Oh yes, 748 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 1: Nazis are always a hot topic on the show. And 749 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: all of those the beliefs and movements that went behind them, 750 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: especially magic, man UFOs and magic and Nazis. That's like 751 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,839 Speaker 1: some of the most interesting things you can talk about, 752 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,120 Speaker 1: all right. So another book I really was fascinated by 753 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: your father wrote was called Racing Towards Armageddon, And that's 754 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 1: not the full title, but that's, you know, the gist 755 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 1: of what it was getting into. And in this he 756 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: explores religious fundamentalism and that's not that's not relevant at 757 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,359 Speaker 1: all today, was right, and especially the intertwining narratives of 758 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,799 Speaker 1: the end times of all the various major religions, like 759 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: how how they believe the end of the world will 760 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 1: come about and everyone ascending, you know, either into their 761 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 1: version of heaven or everyone converting to their religion. And 762 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,280 Speaker 1: I was listening to an interview with him, and man, 763 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 1: it sounded to me like he believed we're getting very 764 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:36,839 Speaker 1: close to the end times. Are you seeing that at all. Yeah, Well, 765 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 1: what was quite interesting is that actually when he was 766 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: out in Israel, he's or a photographer who took photos 767 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,920 Speaker 1: of these very big warehouses and when he asked the 768 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: photographer what was in them, he said, there are a 769 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: huge amount of arms owned by the Americans. Um. And 770 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: this was a place near on the Geddo, which is 771 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 1: where they say leave armged and will happen. And I 772 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,800 Speaker 1: think his work through that book was talking about how 773 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: these fundamentalists are trying to pursue their own aims and 774 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 1: bring us towards the end of the world. And with 775 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:13,320 Speaker 1: the amount of tragedies that have occurred recently with fundamentalists, 776 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,880 Speaker 1: you know, pushing against the system constantly, you know, I 777 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: feel that there is a worry that the end is 778 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,920 Speaker 1: is certainly closer than you would want. And what he 779 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: felt was that, you know, he said, is it is 780 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 1: it time perhaps for the religions of the book to 781 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: throw away the book and seek spiritual experience rather than 782 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: settling for near belief. And I think that's where he 783 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,879 Speaker 1: he wanted to go. He felt that, you know, democracy 784 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,440 Speaker 1: and the he felt that faith in people and who 785 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,360 Speaker 1: he were as humans, he felt of that needed to 786 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,600 Speaker 1: be stronger than these these archaic sort of beliefs that 787 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,840 Speaker 1: guide people towards death and doom. Yeah, that's that's exactly 788 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,400 Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier, getting back to things 789 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: like the cabbala or classical miss deicism or suffism, where 790 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,360 Speaker 1: it's all about that personal connection with the other side 791 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,439 Speaker 1: rather than someone standing on a pulpit telling you how 792 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,040 Speaker 1: it is. I don't know that that speaks to me 793 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 1: at least personally, Tansy. We want to thank you so 794 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,759 Speaker 1: much for taking to the time to speak with us 795 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: today and to speak with our listeners as well. And 796 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 1: one thing that we like to end the show on 797 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: whenever we examine historical allegations or or any anything related 798 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:39,720 Speaker 1: to the past, is we like to ask about the future. 799 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:46,960 Speaker 1: So where do you see the future of research into 800 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,319 Speaker 1: uh these sorts of theories going over the over the 801 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,320 Speaker 1: next few years. Is this is this a done deal 802 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 1: or is there more to be discovered? So there was 803 00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,239 Speaker 1: a lot of work that he did in the course 804 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,239 Speaker 1: of his career and knew a lot of very influential 805 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:07,560 Speaker 1: people and people who were in positions of power, and 806 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,600 Speaker 1: he found out a lot of information that is still 807 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,640 Speaker 1: kept secret and hidden from the public. That's something that 808 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,160 Speaker 1: I think eventually will come out and it would be 809 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 1: interesting to see how if it will be some nonfiction 810 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:26,160 Speaker 1: thriller in some sort of exciting way. Who knows that 811 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:32,280 Speaker 1: you're that you're going to write. Oh yes, very competent 812 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,279 Speaker 1: at writing the books. We can't thank you enough for 813 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,960 Speaker 1: joining us today. I was wonderful to speak with you 814 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 1: and about your father and all of these just fascinating 815 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,879 Speaker 1: mystical things. And it sounds like there's still more out 816 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: there to be discovered. So this concludes today's episode, but 817 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 1: not our show. Matt, Noel and I will be returning 818 00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:01,960 Speaker 1: next week with more of the strangest, most bizarre stuff 819 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:03,840 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. But in the meantime, 820 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 1: if your question is how can I find you guys 821 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,400 Speaker 1: before the next episode? Check us out on the internet. 822 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,759 Speaker 1: We got ways, Yeah, we've got means. You can find 823 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,160 Speaker 1: us on Twitter we're conspiracy stuff there and on Facebook. 824 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,600 Speaker 1: Same deal. Hey, Tansy, how could people find you and 825 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,279 Speaker 1: ask you questions if they're interested? So I run my 826 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,600 Speaker 1: father's website, which is Michael agent dot com, So you 827 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,840 Speaker 1: can contact me through that website. Yeah, I'll happily answer 828 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,400 Speaker 1: any questions that you might have. Is there anything else 829 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,279 Speaker 1: you're getting into that you want to tell people about. Yeah, so, 830 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,759 Speaker 1: I'm actually at the moment in the process of writing 831 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,759 Speaker 1: a book about the future of the environment. I did 832 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,640 Speaker 1: a master's an international environmental law, and it's something that's 833 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,759 Speaker 1: really interesting to me and also talks about a lot 834 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,880 Speaker 1: of conspiracies in that in that world. Oh that's awesome, 835 00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:55,200 Speaker 1: scary to environmental conspiracies. I feel like that's it's gonna 836 00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,279 Speaker 1: make me really sad tansy. All right, well, met uh, 837 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,759 Speaker 1: you know, gird yourself, get ready because we're going to 838 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:04,399 Speaker 1: have to do an episode on that and the fact. 839 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,160 Speaker 1: Okay down, and if none of that social media stuff 840 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,680 Speaker 1: is your bag, you can totally just send us an 841 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 1: email with questions, concerns, comments, ideas for episodes, death threats. No, 842 00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,480 Speaker 1: maybe not, don't do that. Send them to conspiracy at 843 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:39,840 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com.