Speaker 1: Hi everyone. It's me James today and I'm joined by
Speaker 1: Meghan Bodette, who's the director of research at the Kurdish
Speaker 1: Peace Institute. We're picking up where we left off at
Speaker 1: the end of last week to discuss more about the
Speaker 1: Autonomous Administration in North and East Syria and perhaps more specifically,
Speaker 1: to talk about the detainees, the ISIS detainees in the
Speaker 1: Al Whole camp and in other camps around there. How
Speaker 1: are you, Megan, I'm doing well.
Speaker 2: Thank you, James. Thank you for having me on for
Speaker 2: this important conversation about a really critical security and humanitarian
Speaker 2: issue that we're seeing in North East Syria these days. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Thanks, thanks for joining us. So I think to start
Speaker 1: out with, would you be comfortable giving us sort of
Speaker 1: baseline explanation of what's happening with these ISIS detainees and
Speaker 1: why despite the fact that many of them are citizens
Speaker 1: of other countries, they haven't been a returned there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very important place to start with. So essentially,
Speaker 2: after the territorial defeat of ISIS in twenty and nineteen
Speaker 2: by the Syrian Democratic Forces and the international coalition, the
Speaker 2: Syrian Democratic Forces and the Autonomous Administration, which is the
Speaker 2: political body governing northeast Syria ended up with tens of
Speaker 2: thousands of ISIS detainees and the family members of these
Speaker 2: ISIS members as well. And in the Alhol camp you
Speaker 2: now have a population of essentially ISIS affiliated women and
Speaker 2: the children of ISIS members who are now housed in
Speaker 2: that camp as well. And this camp is a serious
Speaker 2: humanitarian issue. You have these children who are in very
Speaker 2: difficult conditions. It's a massive security problem for the surrounding
Speaker 2: Syrian and Iraqi communities that were victimized by ISIS, and
Speaker 2: the world ISIS openly wants to reconstitute itself. It is
Speaker 2: operating inside the camp clandestinely to reconstitute itself. It wants
Speaker 2: to break prisoners out and go right back to its
Speaker 2: genocidal policies against minorities in the region like Yazidis and Christians,
Speaker 2: and to continue terror attacks not only in Iraq and Syria,
Speaker 2: but around the world. It's also a real drain on
Speaker 2: the resources of the Autonomous Administration and the SDF themselves,
Speaker 2: who we have to remember are not a state actor,
Speaker 2: but are dealing with the sort of problems that even
Speaker 2: the wealthiest and most militarily established state actors would have
Speaker 2: trouble with, so they've ended up in this unenviable position
Speaker 2: of having to take care of essentially criminals from around
Speaker 2: the world who came to their country to commit mass atrocities,
Speaker 2: while the victims of these ISIS crimes across Northern and
Speaker 2: Eastern Syria and victims of the subsequent Turkish invasions that
Speaker 2: a Northern and Eastern Syria suffered during and after the
Speaker 2: fight against ISIS really lack basic resources. Now, this is
Speaker 2: something I heard a lot on the ground when I
Speaker 2: was in the region in February and March, speaking to
Speaker 2: people from off which was invaded and occupied by Turkey
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, and to people from Sera, Kanya and
Speaker 2: Tel Abyad which were invaded and occupied by Turkey in
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. Many of them asked rightly why there were
Speaker 2: so many resources from international bodies and NGOs and governments
Speaker 2: provided towards the ISIS detainees in al Hole and the
Speaker 2: ISIS affiliated individuals there when they're communities, their families who
Speaker 2: had done nothing other than simply living in areas that
Speaker 2: Turkey decided to invade and occupy, who were displaced because
Speaker 2: of that. In what experts, including myself, would refer to
Speaker 2: as ethnic cleansing. These communities are receiving nothing from the
Speaker 2: international community. You know, they feel forgotten and they have
Speaker 2: some serious questions about that. Of course, the Autonomous Administration
Speaker 2: has many needs and many pressing security problems that it
Speaker 2: simply can't devote enough resources to when it's tasked with
Speaker 2: managing the world's ISIS members. So in a recent study
Speaker 2: that we published at the Kurdish Peace Institute by journalist
Speaker 2: Matt Broomfield, who spent a lot of time on the
Speaker 2: ground in North East Syria during and after the defeat
Speaker 2: of ISIS, he found that just four percent of foreign
Speaker 2: ISIS fighters held by Syrian Kurdish authorities have been repatriated
Speaker 2: since twenty nineteen four percent. The most of the repatriations
Speaker 2: have been women and children, not the fighters themselves who
Speaker 2: are housed in prisons. But of course the women and
Speaker 2: children are a humanitarian issue and a security issue too,
Speaker 2: so think about that. Those are really dangerous numbers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that differentiation between like fighters and women
Speaker 1: and children is interesting and perhaps one we should like
Speaker 1: pick apart a little bit, because there's a bit we
Speaker 1: talked about this before. We recorded, like there's a betrayal
Speaker 1: certainly of like Western women who went to join ISIS
Speaker 1: as having been sort of victims in their own right,
Speaker 1: which some of them were very young, right and might
Speaker 1: not have been making like adult choices at that time.
Speaker 1: And that's that's one thing. But like a lot of
Speaker 1: these people willingly participated in an extremely oppressive and violent
Speaker 1: regime and they sort of a being that they're often
Speaker 1: not portrayed as such in the press. Is that fair
Speaker 1: to say?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Look, what I always go back to when I
Speaker 2: talk about this issue is reading accounts from UZD women
Speaker 2: and children who survived ISIS captivity, who've said on multiple
Speaker 2: occasions that the women were no less brutal than the men,
Speaker 2: and that they were willing participants in every aspect of
Speaker 2: the worst of ISIS crimes of genocide, of crimes against humanity,
Speaker 2: against the ZD people and of course all the other
Speaker 2: peoples that ISIS targeted. So that I think when you
Speaker 2: have these genocide survivors saying that no, these women participated
Speaker 2: fully in these crimes, they facilitated these crimes, They made
Speaker 2: this system of genocide of crimes against humanity possible. That's
Speaker 2: something we have to listen to and I'm glad that
Speaker 2: you bring up the Western media portrayal because you really
Speaker 2: see this idea that the women could not have been
Speaker 2: perpetrators themselves, when what we hear on the ground is
Speaker 2: that that's not true, and what legal cases have begun
Speaker 2: to find is that that's not true either. There's been
Speaker 2: trials in Europe for ISIS affiliated women for their complicity
Speaker 2: in acts of genocide against the Uzdi community. And you know,
Speaker 2: one point that you hear very commonly on the ground
Speaker 2: is that how can there have only been one or two,
Speaker 2: just a handful of trials. I'm not sure the exact number.
Speaker 2: But after all of these people missing, all of these
Speaker 2: people killed, how are all of these ISIS members? And
Speaker 2: that's why I said, you know ISIS affiliated women, because
Speaker 2: I don't think I do agree with you. It's a
Speaker 2: disservice to just refer to them as ISIS brides or
Speaker 2: whatever sensationalistic media framing you have. These people simply aren't
Speaker 2: being put on trial. And one of the reasons for
Speaker 2: that is that when we come to female members of ISIS,
Speaker 2: there is this perception, both in media and from governance,
Speaker 2: from international institutions that these women are victims that because
Speaker 2: they're women, because they subscribed willingly to a political and
Speaker 2: ideological system that was very very oppressive of women, that
Speaker 2: puts women only into certain roles as housewives, as mothers
Speaker 2: of the next generation of ISIS. That these women couldn't
Speaker 2: have committed atrocities, but they have. They did, And you
Speaker 2: know what we're hearing right now, and some of the
Speaker 2: reporting that's coming out of Northeast Syria is that even
Speaker 2: within the camps, these women have continued to commit some
Speaker 2: of the most serious abuses that ISIS has been committing.
Speaker 2: There's reports that they have raped, sexually assaulted the teenage
Speaker 2: boys who are in the camp in order to essentially
Speaker 2: become pregnant and raise more children to create that next
Speaker 2: generation of ISIS that they seek to create. This continued
Speaker 2: perpetration of sexual violence against these boys who've done nothing
Speaker 2: other than had the misfortune to have their parents be
Speaker 2: members of ISIS. You know, this is a very very
Speaker 2: serious allegation. The reporting about this is something that needs
Speaker 2: to be taken very seriously. Like I said, this is
Speaker 2: a massive human rights crisis for these children, and it
Speaker 2: is you know, these women are no less dangerous and
Speaker 2: no less culpable for their crimes than their male counterparts
Speaker 2: who joined isis.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's just very fair to say, and
Speaker 1: it's somewhat of a like sexist outlook to be like
Speaker 1: a women couldn't have had agency in the way that
Speaker 1: men clearly have been held accountable for. And I think
Speaker 1: it's that the last issue you rate. It's obviously pretty horrible,
Speaker 1: but also we should at least dig into a little bit.
Speaker 1: I think, like the ongoing like not only the abuse
Speaker 1: of children, but like the sort of attempt to indoctrinate
Speaker 1: children into that same like extremist ideology to even like
Speaker 1: I've seen videos of kids training with little wooden guns,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I'm sort of raising another generation of people
Speaker 1: who believe in this kind of painful outlook. And can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about how common that is
Speaker 1: or I guess you don't know entirely, but can you
Speaker 1: speak to that a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that is something that none of us
Speaker 2: know how common it is because of the sort of
Speaker 2: difficulty of accessing that information. But if you look at
Speaker 2: what is coming in from sources from North and East Syria,
Speaker 2: from international reporting on the camp, these women are indoctrinating
Speaker 2: their children into the ISIS ideology. They have said many
Speaker 2: times over in many of their communications that their goal
Speaker 2: is to raise the next generation of ISIS fighters. There's
Speaker 2: no reason to believe that the majority of these women
Speaker 2: have given up on their beliefs, and there is evidence
Speaker 2: that this is what they're trying to do. And of course,
Speaker 2: when you look at the broader situation that these children
Speaker 2: are in, it's a situation that's exceedingly conducive to radicalization
Speaker 2: because of the poor conditions in the camps, because of
Speaker 2: the fact that they remain with their mothers, many of
Speaker 2: whom believe firmly in ISIS ideology and who see the
Speaker 2: role of women in ISIS as doing exactly that, as
Speaker 2: passing down this ideology. And you know, when these children
Speaker 2: they can't be safely repatriated to their countries, they can't
Speaker 2: be put into safe environments where they can receive the
Speaker 2: support they need, the positive influences, they need, any kind
Speaker 2: of medical or psychological help that they need. In these conditions,
Speaker 2: it's inevitable that you're going to have the continuation of
Speaker 2: this ISIS ideology being perpetrated and the adults there, these
Speaker 2: women continuing to pass this down on these children, who
Speaker 2: again have done nothing to be put in the situation
Speaker 2: that they're in. They're continuing to be victimized by the
Speaker 2: actions of their parents and the other ISIS members. So
Speaker 2: and the international community too as a fault here for
Speaker 2: refusing to repatriate at least these children and to try
Speaker 2: ISIS perpetrators of war crimes, kinds against humanity and genocide.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in some cases they've even been like had their
Speaker 1: citizenship striped from them of the countries that they came from.
Speaker 1: The UK have done that for example, right, which is
Speaker 1: kind of just failing to do anything to acknowledge it,
Speaker 1: like this is an international problem that they have completely.
Speaker 2: And that's something we can get into, is the international
Speaker 2: dynamic surrounding these issues, because it's obviously very closely related
Speaker 2: to the ISIS issue, but it touches on so many
Speaker 2: other very internationalized conflicts as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do that. Perhaps before we explain the way
Speaker 1: the nations that are more distant from this are engaging
Speaker 1: with it, we should talk about how nations that are
Speaker 1: more proximal to this are engaging within specifically, how at
Speaker 1: times it seems like Turkish drone strikes, which we've discussed
Speaker 1: previously on our podcasts, so people be familiar with them,
Speaker 1: have the very least not helped the SDF to keep
Speaker 1: these camps secure, right, And in some cases it's you
Speaker 1: can see, like there's a video that the YPJ have
Speaker 1: of like these people celebrating a drone strike inside the camp,
Speaker 1: and can you talk about the impact these drone strikes have.
Speaker 2: Look Something that has been reported by journalists, by local sources,
Speaker 2: and by all sorts of international researchers and experts since
Speaker 2: the earliest days of the war against ISIS is that
Speaker 2: Turkey wanted ISIS to succeed in its mission of taking
Speaker 2: over Northern Iraq and Northern State area in order to
Speaker 2: not only destroy Kurdish political and military structures operating there,
Speaker 2: including the YPG, the YPJ, the later the SDF, and
Speaker 2: the Autonomous Administration, but also to destroy the social base
Speaker 2: for any form of Kurdish autonomy, any kind of multi
Speaker 2: ethnic project to potentially be able to exist there, either
Speaker 2: now or in the future. And this facilitation of the
Speaker 2: rise of ISIS reached such a level that you've had
Speaker 2: legal experts through the Yazidi Justice Committee, which published an
Speaker 2: in depth report on this last year find based on
Speaker 2: a review of the evidence that Turkey was quote complicit
Speaker 2: in the commission of genocide end quote by ISIS by
Speaker 2: allowing fighters to cross its borders to join the group,
Speaker 2: allowing ISIS related economic activity to go on, and other
Speaker 2: forms of facilitation of the rise of ISIS when it
Speaker 2: was committing its most serious crimes. So this is not
Speaker 2: something new. The way that these drone strikes specifically impact
Speaker 2: this issue. They're part of the broader Turkish campaign of
Speaker 2: aggression against northeast Syria. Obviously, the two ground invasions of
Speaker 2: Afrin and of Sera Kanya and Talabyad had very negative
Speaker 2: impacts on the fight against ISIS. And the drone strikes now,
Speaker 2: first of all, they make it difficult for any SDF
Speaker 2: or autonomous administration structure to simply do the day to
Speaker 2: day work of providing security and providing the government. You know,
Speaker 2: if a government official or a member of the local
Speaker 2: security forces has to modify their behavior, has to modify
Speaker 2: where they go, how they interact with their constituents. You know,
Speaker 2: what kind of missions they can conduct to avoid being
Speaker 2: assassinated in a drone strike. They're simply not going to
Speaker 2: be as effective. Right, So this is a problem in
Speaker 2: many areas. It certainly impacts the counter ISIS mission, and
Speaker 2: Turkey has specifically started to increasingly target ans, SDF and
Speaker 2: Asayish internal security forces personnel who are directly engaged in
Speaker 2: counter ISIS missions. We saw this in late twenty twenty
Speaker 2: two when there were severe Turkish air operations following a
Speaker 2: bombing in Istanbul that Turkey, based on all evidence, falsely
Speaker 2: attempted to attribute to Kurdish groups despite there being no
Speaker 2: real evidence supporting that claim. These attacks targeted civilians, civilian infrastructure,
Speaker 2: and SDF forces engaged in key counter ISIS missions, including
Speaker 2: SDF forces involved in securing the Alhole camp. And now
Speaker 2: we've even started to see in addition to these anti
Speaker 2: SDF anti autonomous administration drone strikes, Turkey's been using drones
Speaker 2: to fire essentially warning shots at the international coalition led
Speaker 2: by the US and the other coalition countries itself. We
Speaker 2: saw this in November when there was a drone strike
Speaker 2: on the joint SDF coalition base where the SDF and
Speaker 2: the international community worked together to plan ongoing counter ISIS missions,
Speaker 2: and earlier this year, in i believe April of this year,
Speaker 2: the drone strike on Sulimania International Airport in Iraqi Kurdastan,
Speaker 2: where there was a joint SDF coalition convoy where SDF
Speaker 2: Commander in Chief Muslim Kobani was present and US forces
Speaker 2: were also present. That strike, for all intents and purposes,
Speaker 2: was Turkey's attempt not only to threaten the SDF and
Speaker 2: the Autonomous Administration, but to threaten the coalition as well,
Speaker 2: specifically for its continuing counter ISIS partnership with Syrian Kurds.
Speaker 2: So this has risen to a level where Turkey is
Speaker 2: not only using these to disrupt governance and security at
Speaker 2: the local level in the Autonomous Administration, it's not only
Speaker 2: using them against locally led SDFYPG led counter ISIS missions,
Speaker 2: but Turkey is using drones to threaten the entire global
Speaker 2: counter ISIS campaign, of which on paper is formally a member.
Speaker 2: So there you go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Turkey is kind of it's We've talked about
Speaker 1: this again before, how it pressured like newer NATO members
Speaker 1: Finland and Sweden to even stop accepting Kurdish refugees. Right,
Speaker 1: It's yeah, while at the same time being a member
Speaker 1: of NATO and as you say, also like drone striking
Speaker 1: other members of NATO. It's certainly like it's making it
Speaker 1: as hard as possible for people in this part of
Speaker 1: the world to have the stability and peace and the
Speaker 1: things that they fought so hard for for such a
Speaker 1: long time. I wonder if you can talk about, like, so,
Speaker 1: what is the into as far as the international community exists,
Speaker 1: which is a pretty nebulous thing to really kind of
Speaker 1: pin down, but is what is specifically like this US
Speaker 1: led coalition to the fea isis. I think they call
Speaker 1: it doing to help and like I guess a little
Speaker 1: more broadly, building on that, this coalition has a very
Speaker 1: narrow focus in a place where there are a lot
Speaker 1: of different aggresses to include various other Islamist groups, to
Speaker 1: include the Turkish State and obviously the day the state
Speaker 1: in Syria. Can you explain a little bit about how
Speaker 1: the mission of this coalition is narrow in a way
Speaker 1: that helps it doing the things that people on the
Speaker 1: ground they need to ensure peace and stability.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. That's a really important question because, as you said,
Speaker 2: this international relationship with North Eastyria is very narrowly built
Speaker 2: on a counter Isis focus, which means a military focus.
Speaker 2: So there's relationships between security forces and security forces. What
Speaker 2: we don't see our political relationships. And this connects to
Speaker 2: a wide variety of issues related to this immediate problem
Speaker 2: of ISIS, of securing ISIS prisoners, of bringing ISIS perpetrators
Speaker 2: of genocide and war crimes to justice. But it also
Speaker 2: connects to the deeper problem of the kind of long
Speaker 2: term stability in Syria that's necessary to end this ongoing
Speaker 2: civil war, to bring justice to the victims of ISIS
Speaker 2: and to all other abuses and atrocities during the twelve
Speaker 2: years of conflict in Syria, and to prevent the next
Speaker 2: endless war in this region from inevitably taking place in
Speaker 2: the future. So we have this narrow military partnership. The
Speaker 2: reason that this relationship evolved in this way was going
Speaker 2: back to the role of Turkey, because the United States
Speaker 2: and its European allies had no other option but to
Speaker 2: partner with Kurdish groups if they wanted to achieve a
Speaker 2: territorial defeat of ISIS in Iraq and Syria. There was
Speaker 2: no force other than the SDF and the YPG and
Speaker 2: the YPGA at that time that would be capable of
Speaker 2: the military responsibility of defeating ISIS. It was essentially, if
Speaker 2: people remember the resistance the YPG and the YPJ at
Speaker 2: Kobani in northeast northeastern Syria that held out long enough
Speaker 2: where the United States and the international Coalition realized that
Speaker 2: their only option if they wanted to defeat ISIS on
Speaker 2: the ground was to partner with these forces. Before that, also,
Speaker 2: we're recording this in August, the situation in Sinjar where
Speaker 2: ISIS had gone in, had committed genocide against the Azdi community,
Speaker 2: and we're the only people who were able to actually
Speaker 2: come in and help Uzidis defend themselves and evacuate refugees
Speaker 2: to safety in Syria, where again the YPG, the YPJ
Speaker 2: and the PKK gorillas as well. Because these Kurdish forces
Speaker 2: were able to help local civilians in Sinjar defend themselves
Speaker 2: and evacuate so many refugees to safety, it forced the
Speaker 2: international community's hand to act. The PKK intervened in Sinjar
Speaker 2: to start that humanitarian mission on August fourth. US air
Speaker 2: strikes began on August seventh. It was this local response
Speaker 2: from these non state actors that forced the international community.
Speaker 2: You know, these states with actual treaty obligations to respond
Speaker 2: to and prevent massatrocities, to take action. But because Turkey
Speaker 2: views the PKK as a terrorist group, it views the
Speaker 2: YPG and the YPG as indistinguishable from the PKK and
Speaker 2: therefore as a terrorist group. The entire counter ISIS mission
Speaker 2: from the very beginning was faced with this question of
Speaker 2: how these states that wanted to fight ISIS could do
Speaker 2: so without offending their relationships with Turkey as a member
Speaker 2: of NATO and an ally in other respects. So this
Speaker 2: connects specifically to the ISIS issue, not only because the
Speaker 2: contradiction here dates back to the counter ISIS campaign, but
Speaker 2: because actual international trials for ISIS members, actual security policies
Speaker 2: that could address the problems in al Hole would legitimize
Speaker 2: the SDF and the autonomous administration on the international stage
Speaker 2: and would legitimize the political philosophies behind what they're doing,
Speaker 2: all of which Turkey deems to be a very serious
Speaker 2: national security threat to its existence. I mean, imagine you
Speaker 2: have a Kurdish woman judge questioning an ISIS member responsible
Speaker 2: for potentially European and American casualties, certainly responsible for casualties
Speaker 2: and all sorts of abuses across Iraq and Syria, about
Speaker 2: the evidence that we have, that the international community has,
Speaker 2: that North East Syria has, about how Turkey facilitated ISIS actions,
Speaker 2: you know, with the YPG and the YPG there for security,
Speaker 2: with international observers from the US and other coalition countries
Speaker 2: facilitating providing legal and security support, that would absolutely destroy
Speaker 2: Turkey's narrative about what individuals and entities are terrorists and
Speaker 2: which ones have actually contributed not only to the territorial
Speaker 2: militarily defeat of ISIS, but to social and political and
Speaker 2: governance projects that are able to prevent, you know, the
Speaker 2: resurgence of the next ISIS. So, you know, this kind
Speaker 2: of fear of building political relationships with the Autonomous administration
Speaker 2: with legitimate this fear of legitimizing the autonomous administration project
Speaker 2: and helping it address security problems in a way that
Speaker 2: would you know, both increase its standing and legitimacy locally
Speaker 2: and internationally, and would show how the actions of states
Speaker 2: like Turkey contributed to prolonging and intensifying the civil war
Speaker 2: in Syria. States simply don't want to do that yet.
Speaker 2: But you know, when we look at the long term
Speaker 2: consequences of whether it's allowing Turkey to continue aggressive actions
Speaker 2: against North East Syria and more broadly, to pursue a
Speaker 2: military solution to its Kurdish conflict, whether it's allowing ISIS
Speaker 2: atrocities to go unpunished, you know, leaving communities that were
Speaker 2: impacted by ISIS to be essentially re traumatized and left
Speaker 2: to live in difficult conditions, you know, not receiving justice,
Speaker 2: and allowing these ISIS members to continue to have the
Speaker 2: space to attempt to reconstitute their group and go back
Speaker 2: to the kind of atrocities they were committing and attacks
Speaker 2: they were carrying out worldwide in twenty fourteen twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2: In the long run, this sort of appeasement of Turkey
Speaker 2: over the issue of the Kurdish question and the role
Speaker 2: of the Autonomous Administration, it's going to create the start
Speaker 2: of the next endless war in the Middle East. And
Speaker 2: you know, if policymakers want to avoid that, they need
Speaker 2: to be addressing these problems from a pro peace perspective,
Speaker 2: from a perspective that brings about justice. You know, political
Speaker 2: solutions based on democracy, on gender equality, on the equality
Speaker 2: of all communities in the region, all of these values
Speaker 2: that while imperfectly the autonomous administration is really trying to
Speaker 2: fight for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's super important to point out that
Speaker 1: this isn't a necessarily a like Turkey versus Kurdish people
Speaker 1: like you dichotomy or like those aren't the only people
Speaker 1: impacted by this, right, Like the I think the majority
Speaker 1: of the ANS is not Kurdish people, right, And we
Speaker 1: are an FDF also are not Kurdish.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a very good paper by doctor Amy
Speaker 2: Austen Holmes who wrote in an analysis of this conflict
Speaker 2: and the sort of Turkey SDF security dynamics, that what
Speaker 2: we would refer to as the Turkish Kurdish conflict or
Speaker 2: the Turkey PKK conflict is actually a conflict that impacts
Speaker 2: every ethnic and religious group in Turkey, Iraq and Syria.
Speaker 2: And of course you have and we could do an
Speaker 2: entire other episode on this. You know, there are certainly
Speaker 2: Kurds who support Erdwan in the AKP, whether from an
Speaker 2: Islamist perspective or on the basis of class interests. And
Speaker 2: you have Turks, ethnic Turkish people who went to North
Speaker 2: East Syria during the height of the fight against ISIS
Speaker 2: as members of socialist groups to provide humanitarian aid and
Speaker 2: to join Kurdish forces in their fight against ISIS. On
Speaker 2: the ground, you have Yuzids, Christians, Syriacs, Assyrians, Armenians, Arabs,
Speaker 2: all different ethnic groups in Iraq and Syria that are
Speaker 2: very much impacted by this conflict, and particularly because of
Speaker 2: the Autonomous Administration's multi ethnic and multi religious model. And
Speaker 2: while the Autonomous Administration system certainly hasn't shortcomings and hasn't
Speaker 2: been able to perfectly overcome years and years of sectarian
Speaker 2: and religious and ethnic challenges, it has made a real
Speaker 2: attempt at including all of the peoples of the region.
Speaker 2: And that's one of the reasons why despite all of
Speaker 2: these Turkish attacks, despite the DEVISIS, you know, these communities
Speaker 2: have continued to band together and participate in SDF and
Speaker 2: Autonomous Administration structures in order to try to build governance
Speaker 2: and real post ISIS security. So it's certainly not just
Speaker 2: a very narrowly defined Turkish Kurdish issue. It's an issue
Speaker 2: of civil rights, of political rights, of long term security
Speaker 2: and stability, of what kind of society and what kind
Speaker 2: of governance can and should exist in this region where
Speaker 2: many Kurds and many other ethnic and religious minorities would
Speaker 2: argue the European imposition of artificial borders and nation states
Speaker 2: onto areas that were multi ethnic and multi religious for
Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of years was the source of a
Speaker 2: lot of these problems that we see today, not only
Speaker 2: with ISIS, not only with the Syrian War, with the
Speaker 2: Kurdish conflict in Turkey as well with many of the
Speaker 2: issues that we're seeing in Iraq, in Iran, all over
Speaker 2: the region. So it goes much deeper than that. And
Speaker 2: I think that understanding, you know, the very deep historical
Speaker 2: roots of these issues is what can start to point
Speaker 2: us to the actual, very radical solutions that would be
Speaker 2: necessary to get long term peace and security.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that goes on. I think solutions like you said,
Speaker 1: many nation states still exercising kind of pseudocolonial control over
Speaker 1: these places or trying to or trying to at least
Speaker 1: sort of use force to extract wealth, are really open to.
Speaker 1: So it creates this sort of half assed, like you've
Speaker 1: said that, this sort of limited support for only some
Speaker 1: parts of a project, which it doesn't work if you
Speaker 1: only support part of this project right as we're seeing,
Speaker 1: I wonder if people are interested in following more about this.
Speaker 1: I think it's something that like so much of the
Speaker 1: coverage of this whole area focuses on, like specifically women
Speaker 1: in our whole right or women who went to join ICEIS.
Speaker 1: Where can people find out more about like the What
Speaker 1: sources would you suggest for following goings on in this area?
Speaker 2: So yeah, I would say following local Syrian and Kurdish
Speaker 2: news sources would be a good place to start. You
Speaker 2: have sites like north Press, where I've written before, that
Speaker 2: provide good perspectives from Syrian Kurdish writers. You have a
Speaker 2: human rights organizations working on the ground, groups like Seriance
Speaker 2: for Truth and Justice that's done a lot of documentation
Speaker 2: of issues like for example, ISIS members who've joined Turkey
Speaker 2: backed groups in the occupied areas. You have arguably one
Speaker 2: of the best English language resources, not only for their
Speaker 2: own publications, but for researchers and journalists to reach out to,
Speaker 2: the Ulsheva Information Center that does a lot of good
Speaker 2: work on their own and also a lot of really
Speaker 2: incredible work to facilitate the work of international researchers and journalists.
Speaker 2: You have the Kurdish media sites like Koar News that
Speaker 2: will give good updates on what the Autonomous Administration is
Speaker 2: doing and saying from their perspective. Of course, there are
Speaker 2: a lot of official pages and sites for Autonomous Administration
Speaker 2: and SDF institutions as well. Those tend to be in
Speaker 2: Kurdish or Arabic, so of course if you know either
Speaker 2: of those languages, you can follow them. For English, you
Speaker 2: have some of the SDF affiliated sites that have been translated.
Speaker 2: The YPG Information and Documentation Office have done a lot
Speaker 2: of work on this issue of ISIS and the related
Speaker 2: security challenges. They publish in English. They provide good information
Speaker 2: from that security perspective, and then really, I think any
Speaker 2: sources on social media online that provide good perspectives from
Speaker 2: people who are on the ground, who are providing reputable information,
Speaker 2: whether it's from a human rights side of things, from
Speaker 2: the security side of things, from the administration side of things,
Speaker 2: it's good to get that full spectrum of perspectives of
Speaker 2: what different actors are doing and seeing. And then, of
Speaker 2: course I'd be remiss if I did not promote my
Speaker 2: own institution. We have published coverage of certainly the ISIS
Speaker 2: issue in North East Syria, but also a lot on
Speaker 2: the wider political, humanitarian and security challenges related to these
Speaker 2: interlocking conflicts in Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Kurdistan that have sort
Speaker 2: of formed the very unstable basis on which these developments
Speaker 2: relevant to global security issues like ISIS are taking place.
Speaker 2: So you can certainly read what we've been publishing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's an excellent list of resources, and
Speaker 1: lots of the ones that I've been using, other ones
Speaker 1: that you've mentioned. I would just I suppose warned people,
Speaker 1: especially the latest YPJ Information and Documentation Center video and
Speaker 1: our whole comes with a heavy content warning for violence
Speaker 1: that you will see there, which is it's documenting things
Speaker 1: that happen. It's not like they are doing the violence.
Speaker 1: They're not. But still, if that's something you don't want
Speaker 1: to see, that's probably a video you don't want to watch. Megan,
Speaker 1: is there anything people can do to help like this?
Speaker 1: I was thinking when we were talking of like I
Speaker 1: met a Kurdish man a month ago at the border
Speaker 1: being held by immigrats and customs enforcement. But it's not
Speaker 1: a topic that gets much coverage in the US, and
Speaker 1: as a result, like people both there and people coming
Speaker 1: here don't get the compassion. Then let's say Ukrainian people
Speaker 1: who are also fleeing conflict, do get and you can
Speaker 1: see that in a way that they're literally treated differently
Speaker 1: in immigration laws. So is there anything people can do
Speaker 1: to help?
Speaker 2: Well, I would say that the first thing is exactly
Speaker 2: like we're doing now on this discussion, and like you
Speaker 2: as a listener listening to this conversation are doing by
Speaker 2: hearing from us and following this issue. Encourage media research,
Speaker 2: human rights groups, analysts, and all others who do work
Speaker 2: in any of these fields to cover this issue in
Speaker 2: its full political and security context. Look, we can't only
Speaker 2: talk about North and ew Syria when there's a crisis.
Speaker 2: Isis did not come out of nowhere in twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2: The Turkish invasion did not come out of nowhere in
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. And had we as a society and certainly
Speaker 2: our institutions been more informed, more aware of the root
Speaker 2: conditions causing these outbursts of violence, these outbursts of violence
Speaker 2: may not have happened. They might have been addressed before
Speaker 2: they happened. And so what does it mean to build
Speaker 2: that awareness? That means everything from writing a letter to
Speaker 2: your local newspaper to producing a report at your university
Speaker 2: with input from institutions in North East Syria, some of
Speaker 2: these local media and human rights organizations that we've talked
Speaker 2: about to hosting an event for your community group on
Speaker 2: the state of this broadly defined conflict in Turkey and
Speaker 2: Iraq and Syria in Kurdistan between the Turkish state and
Speaker 2: these Kurdish groups that, in addition to fighting against ISIS,
Speaker 2: have been struggling for autonomy, self determination, equality between men
Speaker 2: and women, equality of people of different religious beliefs, of
Speaker 2: different ethnic backgrounds. Long before ISIS was on the agenda
Speaker 2: and Northeast Syria it was on the agenda. We at
Speaker 2: the Kurdish Peace Institute are always available to help you
Speaker 2: do this. You can reach out to us on our
Speaker 2: contact page. We have information on everything from submitting content
Speaker 2: of your own to resources for reaching out to us
Speaker 2: for media appearances. Of course, there's all the sources I
Speaker 2: mentioned as well, and there are other episodes of this
Speaker 2: wonderful podcast with very talented expert speakers and interviewers as
Speaker 2: well who've spoken about issues related to Syria, Turkey and Kurdistan.
Speaker 2: You can advocate for greater political support for the Autonomous Administration,
Speaker 2: for an end to Turkey's aggressive actions against Northeast Syria
Speaker 2: and its ongoing human rights violations in the occupied areas
Speaker 2: of Afriin and russ a line, and for international political
Speaker 2: support for a democratic, just peaceful solution to the Turkish
Speaker 2: Kurdish conflict. This is, i think, at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, the root of all of these problems that
Speaker 2: we're seeing here, and if this conflict were to be resolved,
Speaker 2: if Turkey were no longer to take an aggressive militaristic
Speaker 2: approach to the very concept of Kurdish autonomy, the very
Speaker 2: social base of Kurdish communities that has the capacity to
Speaker 2: seek and organize for autonomy itself, this would mean an
Speaker 2: end to authoritarianism in Turkey, which has been leading Turkey
Speaker 2: to all sorts of destabilizing behavior and certainly and miserating
Speaker 2: countless Turkish citizens. This is one of the reasons why
Speaker 2: not only Kurbs, but many Turkish people of all ethnicities
Speaker 2: as well have been fleeing Turkey to Europe and even
Speaker 2: to the United States. Has been the escalating persecution, poverty,
Speaker 2: and difficulty of life under Erdowan, which is directly connected
Speaker 2: to air Dowan's choice in twenty fifteen to end piece
Speaker 2: talks with the Kurdish movement in order to consolidate his
Speaker 2: total power over the state using war and far right nationalism.
Speaker 2: This would end not only these difficult conditions within Turkey,
Speaker 2: this persecution, this economic devastation, this oppression of all oppressed
Speaker 2: segments of society. It would end Turkey's aggressive foreign policy
Speaker 2: in the region as well, which would be hugely important
Speaker 2: for allowing North East Syria the stability. It means to
Speaker 2: put ISIS members on trial, hold them accountable for what
Speaker 2: they've done, begin to rebuild, give post Isis communities a future,
Speaker 2: allow these people who have suffered so much to defeat
Speaker 2: this group, of course for themselves, but really for all
Speaker 2: humanity to be able to build new lives, recover and
Speaker 2: have a say in their future, and by doing that,
Speaker 2: to pursue a political solution to the Syrian conflict. Right now,
Speaker 2: North Assyria is the only major part of Syria outside
Speaker 2: of government control that has a system that is semi
Speaker 2: functional despite all of the setbacks of the war and
Speaker 2: the economic crisis, which again could be a whole other episode.
Speaker 2: Which has empowered women, which has empowered different ethnic and
Speaker 2: religious communities. They could be part of a political solution
Speaker 2: in Syria. Turkey's war on the Kurdish movement, you know,
Speaker 2: is preventing that. This goes into a lot of challenges
Speaker 2: in Iraq as well, with increasing Turkish military operations there
Speaker 2: related to the conflict that have made life extremely difficult
Speaker 2: for many different Iraqi communities. But again all of this,
Speaker 2: this conflict, you could argue, is the largest and most
Speaker 2: impactful and certainly one of the longest running, you know,
Speaker 2: for forty years now of the modern Middle East. It
Speaker 2: is an international conflict. The United States European governments, like
Speaker 2: we saw with the example of the US and European
Speaker 2: position on NATO accession and the concessions to Turkey made there,
Speaker 2: have been very involved in supporting militarily and politically Turkey's
Speaker 2: efforts to resolve this conflict militarily and to deny the
Speaker 2: Kurdish people their rights by force. And we you listening
Speaker 2: to this are communities in all of these different countries
Speaker 2: that have a stake in this conflict. We're the ones
Speaker 2: you can change that, and you can do that on
Speaker 2: two different tracks. So one, you can build awareness in
Speaker 2: your own community. You can build connections between your community
Speaker 2: groups and institutions in North East Syria, in Turkey, in
Speaker 2: different places impacted by this conflict in order to find
Speaker 2: ways that you can help respond to specific needs, work
Speaker 2: specific projects together, and two, in the long run, use
Speaker 2: those connections, your knowledge you gain from those connections, the
Speaker 2: resources you create, as you reach out to the media,
Speaker 2: as you meet different people working on this, to reach
Speaker 2: out to decision makers and show this is an issue
Speaker 2: that their constituents care about. This is an issue that's
Speaker 2: not something that governments can do without a response from
Speaker 2: public opinion. And this is an issue where there is
Speaker 2: organized pressure to change policy, you know, in favor of peace,
Speaker 2: in favor of stability, in favor of political solutions. Because
Speaker 2: when we do that, and there's lots of examples of
Speaker 2: how different communities and organizations have done that, when we
Speaker 2: do that on a large enough scale, we're not only
Speaker 2: addressing a humanitarian problem, we're not only contributing to peace
Speaker 2: and stability in the region. But at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, we can find solutions for these conflicts that
Speaker 2: mean that there won't be another rise of Isis, there
Speaker 2: won't be another Turkish invasion in ocup patient of northern Syria,
Speaker 2: and there will be models for political and social transformation
Speaker 2: that can help us end conflicts in other parts of
Speaker 2: the world as well, So there's lots of ways to contribute.
Speaker 2: I hope you're inspired to do so. And I think
Speaker 2: that just listening to this conversation, hearing about what's going
Speaker 2: on and thinking about what you can do, that's already
Speaker 2: the first step. You're already there and that's the most
Speaker 2: important thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, great, thanks Bigain. That's a really good, I think
Speaker 1: place to end because it gives some people something to do.
Speaker 1: I think far too often that it's really easy in
Speaker 1: the immedia to just point at something and say it's
Speaker 1: bad and then walk away and not sort of leave
Speaker 1: people a way to help or do something. So I
Speaker 1: really appreciate you doing that. Is there any where people
Speaker 1: can find you on the internet, So you can.
Speaker 2: Find all of my research and writing at kurdishpace dot org,
Speaker 2: as well as all of the research and writing of
Speaker 2: our brilliant contributors, many of whom are on the ground
Speaker 2: in Northern Syria themselves, in other parts of the region,
Speaker 2: or who have ex de sensibly traveled to that region
Speaker 2: for their work. I encourage you to read all of
Speaker 2: our content and to follow our social media pages as
Speaker 2: well at kurdishpiece org. On Twitter, and yes you can
Speaker 2: read not only my work but the work of a
Speaker 2: lot of other really great people. But I'm very lucky
Speaker 2: to collaborate.
Speaker 1: With amazing Thanks so much for your time, Megan, Thank you, James.
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.
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