1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Hi everyone. It's me James today and I'm joined by 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: Meghan Bodette, who's the director of research at the Kurdish 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: Peace Institute. We're picking up where we left off at 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: the end of last week to discuss more about the 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: Autonomous Administration in North and East Syria and perhaps more specifically, 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: to talk about the detainees, the ISIS detainees in the 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: Al Whole camp and in other camps around there. How 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: are you, Megan, I'm doing well. 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 2: Thank you, James. Thank you for having me on for 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: this important conversation about a really critical security and humanitarian 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 2: issue that we're seeing in North East Syria these days. Yeah. 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: Thanks, thanks for joining us. So I think to start 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: out with, would you be comfortable giving us sort of 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: baseline explanation of what's happening with these ISIS detainees and 15 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: why despite the fact that many of them are citizens 16 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: of other countries, they haven't been a returned there. 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very important place to start with. So essentially, 18 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: after the territorial defeat of ISIS in twenty and nineteen 19 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: by the Syrian Democratic Forces and the international coalition, the 20 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 2: Syrian Democratic Forces and the Autonomous Administration, which is the 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 2: political body governing northeast Syria ended up with tens of 22 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: thousands of ISIS detainees and the family members of these 23 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 2: ISIS members as well. And in the Alhol camp you 24 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 2: now have a population of essentially ISIS affiliated women and 25 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: the children of ISIS members who are now housed in 26 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 2: that camp as well. And this camp is a serious 27 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: humanitarian issue. You have these children who are in very 28 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 2: difficult conditions. It's a massive security problem for the surrounding 29 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: Syrian and Iraqi communities that were victimized by ISIS, and 30 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: the world ISIS openly wants to reconstitute itself. It is 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: operating inside the camp clandestinely to reconstitute itself. It wants 32 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: to break prisoners out and go right back to its 33 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: genocidal policies against minorities in the region like Yazidis and Christians, 34 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: and to continue terror attacks not only in Iraq and Syria, 35 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: but around the world. It's also a real drain on 36 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 2: the resources of the Autonomous Administration and the SDF themselves, 37 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 2: who we have to remember are not a state actor, 38 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: but are dealing with the sort of problems that even 39 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: the wealthiest and most militarily established state actors would have 40 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 2: trouble with, so they've ended up in this unenviable position 41 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: of having to take care of essentially criminals from around 42 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 2: the world who came to their country to commit mass atrocities, 43 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: while the victims of these ISIS crimes across Northern and 44 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: Eastern Syria and victims of the subsequent Turkish invasions that 45 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 2: a Northern and Eastern Syria suffered during and after the 46 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 2: fight against ISIS really lack basic resources. Now, this is 47 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: something I heard a lot on the ground when I 48 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: was in the region in February and March, speaking to 49 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: people from off which was invaded and occupied by Turkey 50 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, and to people from Sera, Kanya and 51 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: Tel Abyad which were invaded and occupied by Turkey in 52 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. Many of them asked rightly why there were 53 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 2: so many resources from international bodies and NGOs and governments 54 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: provided towards the ISIS detainees in al Hole and the 55 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: ISIS affiliated individuals there when they're communities, their families who 56 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: had done nothing other than simply living in areas that 57 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 2: Turkey decided to invade and occupy, who were displaced because 58 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: of that. In what experts, including myself, would refer to 59 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: as ethnic cleansing. These communities are receiving nothing from the 60 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: international community. You know, they feel forgotten and they have 61 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: some serious questions about that. Of course, the Autonomous Administration 62 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: has many needs and many pressing security problems that it 63 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 2: simply can't devote enough resources to when it's tasked with 64 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: managing the world's ISIS members. So in a recent study 65 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 2: that we published at the Kurdish Peace Institute by journalist 66 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: Matt Broomfield, who spent a lot of time on the 67 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: ground in North East Syria during and after the defeat 68 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: of ISIS, he found that just four percent of foreign 69 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: ISIS fighters held by Syrian Kurdish authorities have been repatriated 70 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 2: since twenty nineteen four percent. The most of the repatriations 71 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 2: have been women and children, not the fighters themselves who 72 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 2: are housed in prisons. But of course the women and 73 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 2: children are a humanitarian issue and a security issue too, 74 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: so think about that. Those are really dangerous numbers. 75 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that differentiation between like fighters and women 76 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: and children is interesting and perhaps one we should like 77 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: pick apart a little bit, because there's a bit we 78 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: talked about this before. We recorded, like there's a betrayal 79 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: certainly of like Western women who went to join ISIS 80 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: as having been sort of victims in their own right, 81 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: which some of them were very young, right and might 82 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: not have been making like adult choices at that time. 83 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: And that's that's one thing. But like a lot of 84 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: these people willingly participated in an extremely oppressive and violent 85 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: regime and they sort of a being that they're often 86 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: not portrayed as such in the press. Is that fair 87 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: to say? 88 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: Absolutely? Look, what I always go back to when I 89 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 2: talk about this issue is reading accounts from UZD women 90 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 2: and children who survived ISIS captivity, who've said on multiple 91 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 2: occasions that the women were no less brutal than the men, 92 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: and that they were willing participants in every aspect of 93 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 2: the worst of ISIS crimes of genocide, of crimes against humanity, 94 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 2: against the ZD people and of course all the other 95 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: peoples that ISIS targeted. So that I think when you 96 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: have these genocide survivors saying that no, these women participated 97 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 2: fully in these crimes, they facilitated these crimes, They made 98 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: this system of genocide of crimes against humanity possible. That's 99 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: something we have to listen to and I'm glad that 100 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: you bring up the Western media portrayal because you really 101 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: see this idea that the women could not have been 102 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 2: perpetrators themselves, when what we hear on the ground is 103 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 2: that that's not true, and what legal cases have begun 104 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 2: to find is that that's not true either. There's been 105 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: trials in Europe for ISIS affiliated women for their complicity 106 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: in acts of genocide against the Uzdi community. And you know, 107 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 2: one point that you hear very commonly on the ground 108 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 2: is that how can there have only been one or two, 109 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: just a handful of trials. I'm not sure the exact number. 110 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: But after all of these people missing, all of these 111 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: people killed, how are all of these ISIS members? And 112 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 2: that's why I said, you know ISIS affiliated women, because 113 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 2: I don't think I do agree with you. It's a 114 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 2: disservice to just refer to them as ISIS brides or 115 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 2: whatever sensationalistic media framing you have. These people simply aren't 116 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: being put on trial. And one of the reasons for 117 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 2: that is that when we come to female members of ISIS, 118 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 2: there is this perception, both in media and from governance, 119 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 2: from international institutions that these women are victims that because 120 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: they're women, because they subscribed willingly to a political and 121 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 2: ideological system that was very very oppressive of women, that 122 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 2: puts women only into certain roles as housewives, as mothers 123 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: of the next generation of ISIS. That these women couldn't 124 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 2: have committed atrocities, but they have. They did, And you 125 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: know what we're hearing right now, and some of the 126 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: reporting that's coming out of Northeast Syria is that even 127 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: within the camps, these women have continued to commit some 128 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: of the most serious abuses that ISIS has been committing. 129 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: There's reports that they have raped, sexually assaulted the teenage 130 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: boys who are in the camp in order to essentially 131 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: become pregnant and raise more children to create that next 132 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: generation of ISIS that they seek to create. This continued 133 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: perpetration of sexual violence against these boys who've done nothing 134 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 2: other than had the misfortune to have their parents be 135 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: members of ISIS. You know, this is a very very 136 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: serious allegation. The reporting about this is something that needs 137 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: to be taken very seriously. Like I said, this is 138 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 2: a massive human rights crisis for these children, and it 139 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: is you know, these women are no less dangerous and 140 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 2: no less culpable for their crimes than their male counterparts 141 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: who joined isis. 142 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's just very fair to say, and 143 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: it's somewhat of a like sexist outlook to be like 144 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: a women couldn't have had agency in the way that 145 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: men clearly have been held accountable for. And I think 146 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: it's that the last issue you rate. It's obviously pretty horrible, 147 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: but also we should at least dig into a little bit. 148 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: I think, like the ongoing like not only the abuse 149 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,239 Speaker 1: of children, but like the sort of attempt to indoctrinate 150 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: children into that same like extremist ideology to even like 151 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: I've seen videos of kids training with little wooden guns, 152 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: and yeah, I'm sort of raising another generation of people 153 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: who believe in this kind of painful outlook. And can 154 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about how common that is 155 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: or I guess you don't know entirely, but can you 156 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: speak to that a little bit. 157 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that is something that none of us 158 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: know how common it is because of the sort of 159 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 2: difficulty of accessing that information. But if you look at 160 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: what is coming in from sources from North and East Syria, 161 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: from international reporting on the camp, these women are indoctrinating 162 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: their children into the ISIS ideology. They have said many 163 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 2: times over in many of their communications that their goal 164 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 2: is to raise the next generation of ISIS fighters. There's 165 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: no reason to believe that the majority of these women 166 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 2: have given up on their beliefs, and there is evidence 167 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 2: that this is what they're trying to do. And of course, 168 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: when you look at the broader situation that these children 169 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 2: are in, it's a situation that's exceedingly conducive to radicalization 170 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 2: because of the poor conditions in the camps, because of 171 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: the fact that they remain with their mothers, many of 172 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: whom believe firmly in ISIS ideology and who see the 173 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: role of women in ISIS as doing exactly that, as 174 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: passing down this ideology. And you know, when these children 175 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 2: they can't be safely repatriated to their countries, they can't 176 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 2: be put into safe environments where they can receive the 177 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 2: support they need, the positive influences, they need, any kind 178 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 2: of medical or psychological help that they need. In these conditions, 179 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: it's inevitable that you're going to have the continuation of 180 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 2: this ISIS ideology being perpetrated and the adults there, these 181 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 2: women continuing to pass this down on these children, who 182 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 2: again have done nothing to be put in the situation 183 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 2: that they're in. They're continuing to be victimized by the 184 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: actions of their parents and the other ISIS members. So 185 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 2: and the international community too as a fault here for 186 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 2: refusing to repatriate at least these children and to try 187 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 2: ISIS perpetrators of war crimes, kinds against humanity and genocide. 188 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, in some cases they've even been like had their 189 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: citizenship striped from them of the countries that they came from. 190 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: The UK have done that for example, right, which is 191 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: kind of just failing to do anything to acknowledge it, 192 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: like this is an international problem that they have completely. 193 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 2: And that's something we can get into, is the international 194 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 2: dynamic surrounding these issues, because it's obviously very closely related 195 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: to the ISIS issue, but it touches on so many 196 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: other very internationalized conflicts as well. 197 00:11:47,240 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do that. Perhaps before we explain the way 198 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: the nations that are more distant from this are engaging 199 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: with it, we should talk about how nations that are 200 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: more proximal to this are engaging within specifically, how at 201 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: times it seems like Turkish drone strikes, which we've discussed 202 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: previously on our podcasts, so people be familiar with them, 203 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: have the very least not helped the SDF to keep 204 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: these camps secure, right, And in some cases it's you 205 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: can see, like there's a video that the YPJ have 206 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: of like these people celebrating a drone strike inside the camp, 207 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: and can you talk about the impact these drone strikes have. 208 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:46,359 Speaker 2: Look Something that has been reported by journalists, by local sources, 209 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 2: and by all sorts of international researchers and experts since 210 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 2: the earliest days of the war against ISIS is that 211 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 2: Turkey wanted ISIS to succeed in its mission of taking 212 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 2: over Northern Iraq and Northern State area in order to 213 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: not only destroy Kurdish political and military structures operating there, 214 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 2: including the YPG, the YPJ, the later the SDF, and 215 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 2: the Autonomous Administration, but also to destroy the social base 216 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 2: for any form of Kurdish autonomy, any kind of multi 217 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: ethnic project to potentially be able to exist there, either 218 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: now or in the future. And this facilitation of the 219 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: rise of ISIS reached such a level that you've had 220 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: legal experts through the Yazidi Justice Committee, which published an 221 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 2: in depth report on this last year find based on 222 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 2: a review of the evidence that Turkey was quote complicit 223 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: in the commission of genocide end quote by ISIS by 224 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 2: allowing fighters to cross its borders to join the group, 225 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: allowing ISIS related economic activity to go on, and other 226 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: forms of facilitation of the rise of ISIS when it 227 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 2: was committing its most serious crimes. So this is not 228 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: something new. The way that these drone strikes specifically impact 229 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 2: this issue. They're part of the broader Turkish campaign of 230 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: aggression against northeast Syria. Obviously, the two ground invasions of 231 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: Afrin and of Sera Kanya and Talabyad had very negative 232 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 2: impacts on the fight against ISIS. And the drone strikes now, 233 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: first of all, they make it difficult for any SDF 234 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: or autonomous administration structure to simply do the day to 235 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: day work of providing security and providing the government. You know, 236 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: if a government official or a member of the local 237 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: security forces has to modify their behavior, has to modify 238 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: where they go, how they interact with their constituents. You know, 239 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 2: what kind of missions they can conduct to avoid being 240 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 2: assassinated in a drone strike. They're simply not going to 241 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 2: be as effective. Right, So this is a problem in 242 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: many areas. It certainly impacts the counter ISIS mission, and 243 00:14:54,720 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: Turkey has specifically started to increasingly target ans, SDF and 244 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: Asayish internal security forces personnel who are directly engaged in 245 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 2: counter ISIS missions. We saw this in late twenty twenty 246 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: two when there were severe Turkish air operations following a 247 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 2: bombing in Istanbul that Turkey, based on all evidence, falsely 248 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 2: attempted to attribute to Kurdish groups despite there being no 249 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: real evidence supporting that claim. These attacks targeted civilians, civilian infrastructure, 250 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 2: and SDF forces engaged in key counter ISIS missions, including 251 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: SDF forces involved in securing the Alhole camp. And now 252 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 2: we've even started to see in addition to these anti 253 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 2: SDF anti autonomous administration drone strikes, Turkey's been using drones 254 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 2: to fire essentially warning shots at the international coalition led 255 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: by the US and the other coalition countries itself. We 256 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 2: saw this in November when there was a drone strike 257 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 2: on the joint SDF coalition base where the SDF and 258 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 2: the international community worked together to plan ongoing counter ISIS missions, 259 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 2: and earlier this year, in i believe April of this year, 260 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 2: the drone strike on Sulimania International Airport in Iraqi Kurdastan, 261 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 2: where there was a joint SDF coalition convoy where SDF 262 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: Commander in Chief Muslim Kobani was present and US forces 263 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: were also present. That strike, for all intents and purposes, 264 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: was Turkey's attempt not only to threaten the SDF and 265 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: the Autonomous Administration, but to threaten the coalition as well, 266 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 2: specifically for its continuing counter ISIS partnership with Syrian Kurds. 267 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 2: So this has risen to a level where Turkey is 268 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: not only using these to disrupt governance and security at 269 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: the local level in the Autonomous Administration, it's not only 270 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 2: using them against locally led SDFYPG led counter ISIS missions, 271 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 2: but Turkey is using drones to threaten the entire global 272 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 2: counter ISIS campaign, of which on paper is formally a member. 273 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 2: So there you go. 274 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Turkey is kind of it's We've talked about 275 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: this again before, how it pressured like newer NATO members 276 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: Finland and Sweden to even stop accepting Kurdish refugees. Right, 277 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: It's yeah, while at the same time being a member 278 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: of NATO and as you say, also like drone striking 279 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: other members of NATO. It's certainly like it's making it 280 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: as hard as possible for people in this part of 281 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: the world to have the stability and peace and the 282 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: things that they fought so hard for for such a 283 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: long time. I wonder if you can talk about, like, so, 284 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: what is the into as far as the international community exists, 285 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: which is a pretty nebulous thing to really kind of 286 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: pin down, but is what is specifically like this US 287 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: led coalition to the fea isis. I think they call 288 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: it doing to help and like I guess a little 289 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: more broadly, building on that, this coalition has a very 290 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: narrow focus in a place where there are a lot 291 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: of different aggresses to include various other Islamist groups, to 292 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: include the Turkish State and obviously the day the state 293 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: in Syria. Can you explain a little bit about how 294 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: the mission of this coalition is narrow in a way 295 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: that helps it doing the things that people on the 296 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,719 Speaker 1: ground they need to ensure peace and stability. 297 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. That's a really important question because, as you said, 298 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: this international relationship with North Eastyria is very narrowly built 299 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 2: on a counter Isis focus, which means a military focus. 300 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: So there's relationships between security forces and security forces. What 301 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 2: we don't see our political relationships. And this connects to 302 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 2: a wide variety of issues related to this immediate problem 303 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 2: of ISIS, of securing ISIS prisoners, of bringing ISIS perpetrators 304 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 2: of genocide and war crimes to justice. But it also 305 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: connects to the deeper problem of the kind of long 306 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 2: term stability in Syria that's necessary to end this ongoing 307 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 2: civil war, to bring justice to the victims of ISIS 308 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: and to all other abuses and atrocities during the twelve 309 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 2: years of conflict in Syria, and to prevent the next 310 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: endless war in this region from inevitably taking place in 311 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 2: the future. So we have this narrow military partnership. The 312 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 2: reason that this relationship evolved in this way was going 313 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 2: back to the role of Turkey, because the United States 314 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 2: and its European allies had no other option but to 315 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: partner with Kurdish groups if they wanted to achieve a 316 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 2: territorial defeat of ISIS in Iraq and Syria. There was 317 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: no force other than the SDF and the YPG and 318 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: the YPGA at that time that would be capable of 319 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:58,239 Speaker 2: the military responsibility of defeating ISIS. It was essentially, if 320 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 2: people remember the resistance the YPG and the YPJ at 321 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 2: Kobani in northeast northeastern Syria that held out long enough 322 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: where the United States and the international Coalition realized that 323 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 2: their only option if they wanted to defeat ISIS on 324 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: the ground was to partner with these forces. Before that, also, 325 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 2: we're recording this in August, the situation in Sinjar where 326 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 2: ISIS had gone in, had committed genocide against the Azdi community, 327 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 2: and we're the only people who were able to actually 328 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: come in and help Uzidis defend themselves and evacuate refugees 329 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: to safety in Syria, where again the YPG, the YPJ 330 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 2: and the PKK gorillas as well. Because these Kurdish forces 331 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 2: were able to help local civilians in Sinjar defend themselves 332 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: and evacuate so many refugees to safety, it forced the 333 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 2: international community's hand to act. The PKK intervened in Sinjar 334 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: to start that humanitarian mission on August fourth. US air 335 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: strikes began on August seventh. It was this local response 336 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: from these non state actors that forced the international community. 337 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 2: You know, these states with actual treaty obligations to respond 338 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 2: to and prevent massatrocities, to take action. But because Turkey 339 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 2: views the PKK as a terrorist group, it views the 340 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: YPG and the YPG as indistinguishable from the PKK and 341 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: therefore as a terrorist group. The entire counter ISIS mission 342 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 2: from the very beginning was faced with this question of 343 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 2: how these states that wanted to fight ISIS could do 344 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 2: so without offending their relationships with Turkey as a member 345 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 2: of NATO and an ally in other respects. So this 346 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 2: connects specifically to the ISIS issue, not only because the 347 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 2: contradiction here dates back to the counter ISIS campaign, but 348 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 2: because actual international trials for ISIS members, actual security policies 349 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 2: that could address the problems in al Hole would legitimize 350 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 2: the SDF and the autonomous administration on the international stage 351 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 2: and would legitimize the political philosophies behind what they're doing, 352 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,959 Speaker 2: all of which Turkey deems to be a very serious 353 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 2: national security threat to its existence. I mean, imagine you 354 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: have a Kurdish woman judge questioning an ISIS member responsible 355 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 2: for potentially European and American casualties, certainly responsible for casualties 356 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: and all sorts of abuses across Iraq and Syria, about 357 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 2: the evidence that we have, that the international community has, 358 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 2: that North East Syria has, about how Turkey facilitated ISIS actions, 359 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 2: you know, with the YPG and the YPG there for security, 360 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: with international observers from the US and other coalition countries 361 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 2: facilitating providing legal and security support, that would absolutely destroy 362 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 2: Turkey's narrative about what individuals and entities are terrorists and 363 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 2: which ones have actually contributed not only to the territorial 364 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: militarily defeat of ISIS, but to social and political and 365 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: governance projects that are able to prevent, you know, the 366 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 2: resurgence of the next ISIS. So, you know, this kind 367 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 2: of fear of building political relationships with the Autonomous administration 368 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 2: with legitimate this fear of legitimizing the autonomous administration project 369 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 2: and helping it address security problems in a way that 370 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 2: would you know, both increase its standing and legitimacy locally 371 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: and internationally, and would show how the actions of states 372 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 2: like Turkey contributed to prolonging and intensifying the civil war 373 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: in Syria. States simply don't want to do that yet. 374 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: But you know, when we look at the long term 375 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 2: consequences of whether it's allowing Turkey to continue aggressive actions 376 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 2: against North East Syria and more broadly, to pursue a 377 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: military solution to its Kurdish conflict, whether it's allowing ISIS 378 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 2: atrocities to go unpunished, you know, leaving communities that were 379 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 2: impacted by ISIS to be essentially re traumatized and left 380 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 2: to live in difficult conditions, you know, not receiving justice, 381 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: and allowing these ISIS members to continue to have the 382 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 2: space to attempt to reconstitute their group and go back 383 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 2: to the kind of atrocities they were committing and attacks 384 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 2: they were carrying out worldwide in twenty fourteen twenty fifteen. 385 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 2: In the long run, this sort of appeasement of Turkey 386 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 2: over the issue of the Kurdish question and the role 387 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 2: of the Autonomous Administration, it's going to create the start 388 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 2: of the next endless war in the Middle East. And 389 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 2: you know, if policymakers want to avoid that, they need 390 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: to be addressing these problems from a pro peace perspective, 391 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: from a perspective that brings about justice. You know, political 392 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 2: solutions based on democracy, on gender equality, on the equality 393 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 2: of all communities in the region, all of these values 394 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 2: that while imperfectly the autonomous administration is really trying to 395 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 2: fight for. 396 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's super important to point out that 397 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,719 Speaker 1: this isn't a necessarily a like Turkey versus Kurdish people 398 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: like you dichotomy or like those aren't the only people 399 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: impacted by this, right, Like the I think the majority 400 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: of the ANS is not Kurdish people, right, And we 401 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: are an FDF also are not Kurdish. 402 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a very good paper by doctor Amy 403 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 2: Austen Holmes who wrote in an analysis of this conflict 404 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 2: and the sort of Turkey SDF security dynamics, that what 405 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 2: we would refer to as the Turkish Kurdish conflict or 406 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 2: the Turkey PKK conflict is actually a conflict that impacts 407 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 2: every ethnic and religious group in Turkey, Iraq and Syria. 408 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 2: And of course you have and we could do an 409 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 2: entire other episode on this. You know, there are certainly 410 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 2: Kurds who support Erdwan in the AKP, whether from an 411 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: Islamist perspective or on the basis of class interests. And 412 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: you have Turks, ethnic Turkish people who went to North 413 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 2: East Syria during the height of the fight against ISIS 414 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 2: as members of socialist groups to provide humanitarian aid and 415 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 2: to join Kurdish forces in their fight against ISIS. On 416 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: the ground, you have Yuzids, Christians, Syriacs, Assyrians, Armenians, Arabs, 417 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: all different ethnic groups in Iraq and Syria that are 418 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: very much impacted by this conflict, and particularly because of 419 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 2: the Autonomous Administration's multi ethnic and multi religious model. And 420 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 2: while the Autonomous Administration system certainly hasn't shortcomings and hasn't 421 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 2: been able to perfectly overcome years and years of sectarian 422 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 2: and religious and ethnic challenges, it has made a real 423 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: attempt at including all of the peoples of the region. 424 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 2: And that's one of the reasons why despite all of 425 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 2: these Turkish attacks, despite the DEVISIS, you know, these communities 426 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 2: have continued to band together and participate in SDF and 427 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 2: Autonomous Administration structures in order to try to build governance 428 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 2: and real post ISIS security. So it's certainly not just 429 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 2: a very narrowly defined Turkish Kurdish issue. It's an issue 430 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 2: of civil rights, of political rights, of long term security 431 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 2: and stability, of what kind of society and what kind 432 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 2: of governance can and should exist in this region where 433 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 2: many Kurds and many other ethnic and religious minorities would 434 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 2: argue the European imposition of artificial borders and nation states 435 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 2: onto areas that were multi ethnic and multi religious for 436 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of years was the source of a 437 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 2: lot of these problems that we see today, not only 438 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 2: with ISIS, not only with the Syrian War, with the 439 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 2: Kurdish conflict in Turkey as well with many of the 440 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 2: issues that we're seeing in Iraq, in Iran, all over 441 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: the region. So it goes much deeper than that. And 442 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 2: I think that understanding, you know, the very deep historical 443 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 2: roots of these issues is what can start to point 444 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 2: us to the actual, very radical solutions that would be 445 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 2: necessary to get long term peace and security. 446 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that goes on. I think solutions like you said, 447 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: many nation states still exercising kind of pseudocolonial control over 448 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: these places or trying to or trying to at least 449 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 1: sort of use force to extract wealth, are really open to. 450 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: So it creates this sort of half assed, like you've 451 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: said that, this sort of limited support for only some 452 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: parts of a project, which it doesn't work if you 453 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: only support part of this project right as we're seeing, 454 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: I wonder if people are interested in following more about this. 455 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: I think it's something that like so much of the 456 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: coverage of this whole area focuses on, like specifically women 457 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: in our whole right or women who went to join ICEIS. 458 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: Where can people find out more about like the What 459 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: sources would you suggest for following goings on in this area? 460 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 2: So yeah, I would say following local Syrian and Kurdish 461 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 2: news sources would be a good place to start. You 462 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: have sites like north Press, where I've written before, that 463 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 2: provide good perspectives from Syrian Kurdish writers. You have a 464 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: human rights organizations working on the ground, groups like Seriance 465 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 2: for Truth and Justice that's done a lot of documentation 466 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 2: of issues like for example, ISIS members who've joined Turkey 467 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: backed groups in the occupied areas. You have arguably one 468 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 2: of the best English language resources, not only for their 469 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 2: own publications, but for researchers and journalists to reach out to, 470 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 2: the Ulsheva Information Center that does a lot of good 471 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 2: work on their own and also a lot of really 472 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 2: incredible work to facilitate the work of international researchers and journalists. 473 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 2: You have the Kurdish media sites like Koar News that 474 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 2: will give good updates on what the Autonomous Administration is 475 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 2: doing and saying from their perspective. Of course, there are 476 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: a lot of official pages and sites for Autonomous Administration 477 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 2: and SDF institutions as well. Those tend to be in 478 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 2: Kurdish or Arabic, so of course if you know either 479 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 2: of those languages, you can follow them. For English, you 480 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 2: have some of the SDF affiliated sites that have been translated. 481 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: The YPG Information and Documentation Office have done a lot 482 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: of work on this issue of ISIS and the related 483 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 2: security challenges. They publish in English. They provide good information 484 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: from that security perspective, and then really, I think any 485 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: sources on social media online that provide good perspectives from 486 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 2: people who are on the ground, who are providing reputable information, 487 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 2: whether it's from a human rights side of things, from 488 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 2: the security side of things, from the administration side of things, 489 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 2: it's good to get that full spectrum of perspectives of 490 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 2: what different actors are doing and seeing. And then, of 491 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 2: course I'd be remiss if I did not promote my 492 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 2: own institution. We have published coverage of certainly the ISIS 493 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 2: issue in North East Syria, but also a lot on 494 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 2: the wider political, humanitarian and security challenges related to these 495 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 2: interlocking conflicts in Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Kurdistan that have sort 496 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: of formed the very unstable basis on which these developments 497 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 2: relevant to global security issues like ISIS are taking place. 498 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 2: So you can certainly read what we've been publishing. 499 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's an excellent list of resources, and 500 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: lots of the ones that I've been using, other ones 501 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: that you've mentioned. I would just I suppose warned people, 502 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: especially the latest YPJ Information and Documentation Center video and 503 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: our whole comes with a heavy content warning for violence 504 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: that you will see there, which is it's documenting things 505 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: that happen. It's not like they are doing the violence. 506 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: They're not. But still, if that's something you don't want 507 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: to see, that's probably a video you don't want to watch. Megan, 508 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: is there anything people can do to help like this? 509 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: I was thinking when we were talking of like I 510 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,479 Speaker 1: met a Kurdish man a month ago at the border 511 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: being held by immigrats and customs enforcement. But it's not 512 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: a topic that gets much coverage in the US, and 513 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: as a result, like people both there and people coming 514 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: here don't get the compassion. Then let's say Ukrainian people 515 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: who are also fleeing conflict, do get and you can 516 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: see that in a way that they're literally treated differently 517 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: in immigration laws. So is there anything people can do 518 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: to help? 519 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 2: Well, I would say that the first thing is exactly 520 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 2: like we're doing now on this discussion, and like you 521 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: as a listener listening to this conversation are doing by 522 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 2: hearing from us and following this issue. Encourage media research, 523 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: human rights groups, analysts, and all others who do work 524 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 2: in any of these fields to cover this issue in 525 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 2: its full political and security context. Look, we can't only 526 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 2: talk about North and ew Syria when there's a crisis. 527 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 2: Isis did not come out of nowhere in twenty fourteen. 528 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: The Turkish invasion did not come out of nowhere in 529 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. And had we as a society and certainly 530 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 2: our institutions been more informed, more aware of the root 531 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 2: conditions causing these outbursts of violence, these outbursts of violence 532 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: may not have happened. They might have been addressed before 533 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 2: they happened. And so what does it mean to build 534 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: that awareness? That means everything from writing a letter to 535 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 2: your local newspaper to producing a report at your university 536 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 2: with input from institutions in North East Syria, some of 537 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 2: these local media and human rights organizations that we've talked 538 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: about to hosting an event for your community group on 539 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 2: the state of this broadly defined conflict in Turkey and 540 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 2: Iraq and Syria in Kurdistan between the Turkish state and 541 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 2: these Kurdish groups that, in addition to fighting against ISIS, 542 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 2: have been struggling for autonomy, self determination, equality between men 543 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 2: and women, equality of people of different religious beliefs, of 544 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 2: different ethnic backgrounds. Long before ISIS was on the agenda 545 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 2: and Northeast Syria it was on the agenda. We at 546 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 2: the Kurdish Peace Institute are always available to help you 547 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 2: do this. You can reach out to us on our 548 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 2: contact page. We have information on everything from submitting content 549 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: of your own to resources for reaching out to us 550 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 2: for media appearances. Of course, there's all the sources I 551 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 2: mentioned as well, and there are other episodes of this 552 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 2: wonderful podcast with very talented expert speakers and interviewers as 553 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 2: well who've spoken about issues related to Syria, Turkey and Kurdistan. 554 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: You can advocate for greater political support for the Autonomous Administration, 555 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 2: for an end to Turkey's aggressive actions against Northeast Syria 556 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 2: and its ongoing human rights violations in the occupied areas 557 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 2: of Afriin and russ a line, and for international political 558 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: support for a democratic, just peaceful solution to the Turkish 559 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 2: Kurdish conflict. This is, i think, at the end of 560 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 2: the day, the root of all of these problems that 561 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 2: we're seeing here, and if this conflict were to be resolved, 562 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: if Turkey were no longer to take an aggressive militaristic 563 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 2: approach to the very concept of Kurdish autonomy, the very 564 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 2: social base of Kurdish communities that has the capacity to 565 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 2: seek and organize for autonomy itself, this would mean an 566 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 2: end to authoritarianism in Turkey, which has been leading Turkey 567 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: to all sorts of destabilizing behavior and certainly and miserating 568 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 2: countless Turkish citizens. This is one of the reasons why 569 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 2: not only Kurbs, but many Turkish people of all ethnicities 570 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 2: as well have been fleeing Turkey to Europe and even 571 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 2: to the United States. Has been the escalating persecution, poverty, 572 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 2: and difficulty of life under Erdowan, which is directly connected 573 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 2: to air Dowan's choice in twenty fifteen to end piece 574 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 2: talks with the Kurdish movement in order to consolidate his 575 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 2: total power over the state using war and far right nationalism. 576 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 2: This would end not only these difficult conditions within Turkey, 577 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,280 Speaker 2: this persecution, this economic devastation, this oppression of all oppressed 578 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 2: segments of society. It would end Turkey's aggressive foreign policy 579 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,800 Speaker 2: in the region as well, which would be hugely important 580 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 2: for allowing North East Syria the stability. It means to 581 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 2: put ISIS members on trial, hold them accountable for what 582 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 2: they've done, begin to rebuild, give post Isis communities a future, 583 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 2: allow these people who have suffered so much to defeat 584 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 2: this group, of course for themselves, but really for all 585 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 2: humanity to be able to build new lives, recover and 586 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 2: have a say in their future, and by doing that, 587 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 2: to pursue a political solution to the Syrian conflict. Right now, 588 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 2: North Assyria is the only major part of Syria outside 589 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 2: of government control that has a system that is semi 590 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 2: functional despite all of the setbacks of the war and 591 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,919 Speaker 2: the economic crisis, which again could be a whole other episode. 592 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 2: Which has empowered women, which has empowered different ethnic and 593 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: religious communities. They could be part of a political solution 594 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 2: in Syria. Turkey's war on the Kurdish movement, you know, 595 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 2: is preventing that. This goes into a lot of challenges 596 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 2: in Iraq as well, with increasing Turkish military operations there 597 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 2: related to the conflict that have made life extremely difficult 598 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 2: for many different Iraqi communities. But again all of this, 599 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 2: this conflict, you could argue, is the largest and most 600 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 2: impactful and certainly one of the longest running, you know, 601 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 2: for forty years now of the modern Middle East. It 602 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 2: is an international conflict. The United States European governments, like 603 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 2: we saw with the example of the US and European 604 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 2: position on NATO accession and the concessions to Turkey made there, 605 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 2: have been very involved in supporting militarily and politically Turkey's 606 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 2: efforts to resolve this conflict militarily and to deny the 607 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 2: Kurdish people their rights by force. And we you listening 608 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 2: to this are communities in all of these different countries 609 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 2: that have a stake in this conflict. We're the ones 610 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 2: you can change that, and you can do that on 611 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 2: two different tracks. So one, you can build awareness in 612 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 2: your own community. You can build connections between your community 613 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 2: groups and institutions in North East Syria, in Turkey, in 614 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 2: different places impacted by this conflict in order to find 615 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 2: ways that you can help respond to specific needs, work 616 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 2: specific projects together, and two, in the long run, use 617 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 2: those connections, your knowledge you gain from those connections, the 618 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,720 Speaker 2: resources you create, as you reach out to the media, 619 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 2: as you meet different people working on this, to reach 620 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 2: out to decision makers and show this is an issue 621 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 2: that their constituents care about. This is an issue that's 622 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 2: not something that governments can do without a response from 623 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 2: public opinion. And this is an issue where there is 624 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 2: organized pressure to change policy, you know, in favor of peace, 625 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 2: in favor of stability, in favor of political solutions. Because 626 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 2: when we do that, and there's lots of examples of 627 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 2: how different communities and organizations have done that, when we 628 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 2: do that on a large enough scale, we're not only 629 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:48,280 Speaker 2: addressing a humanitarian problem, we're not only contributing to peace 630 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 2: and stability in the region. But at the end of 631 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 2: the day, we can find solutions for these conflicts that 632 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 2: mean that there won't be another rise of Isis, there 633 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 2: won't be another Turkish invasion in ocup patient of northern Syria, 634 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 2: and there will be models for political and social transformation 635 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 2: that can help us end conflicts in other parts of 636 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 2: the world as well, So there's lots of ways to contribute. 637 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 2: I hope you're inspired to do so. And I think 638 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 2: that just listening to this conversation, hearing about what's going 639 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 2: on and thinking about what you can do, that's already 640 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 2: the first step. You're already there and that's the most 641 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:24,399 Speaker 2: important thing. 642 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, great, thanks Bigain. That's a really good, I think 643 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: place to end because it gives some people something to do. 644 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: I think far too often that it's really easy in 645 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: the immedia to just point at something and say it's 646 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: bad and then walk away and not sort of leave 647 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 1: people a way to help or do something. So I 648 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: really appreciate you doing that. Is there any where people 649 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 1: can find you on the internet, So you can. 650 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 2: Find all of my research and writing at kurdishpace dot org, 651 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 2: as well as all of the research and writing of 652 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 2: our brilliant contributors, many of whom are on the ground 653 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,240 Speaker 2: in Northern Syria themselves, in other parts of the region, 654 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 2: or who have ex de sensibly traveled to that region 655 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 2: for their work. I encourage you to read all of 656 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 2: our content and to follow our social media pages as 657 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 2: well at kurdishpiece org. On Twitter, and yes you can 658 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 2: read not only my work but the work of a 659 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 2: lot of other really great people. But I'm very lucky 660 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 2: to collaborate. 661 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,720 Speaker 1: With amazing Thanks so much for your time, Megan, Thank you, James. 662 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 663 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,760 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 664 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,919 Speaker 2: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 665 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 666 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 2: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 667 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,280 Speaker 2: cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.