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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. Dr. Laurie Santos here with

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Speaker 1: a little something extra for you this week. On Monday's episode,

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Speaker 1: I spoke with podcaster and author Eric Zimmer about his

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Speaker 1: new book, How a Little Becomes a Lot, and how,

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Speaker 1: in spite of our instincts, it's often better for our

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Speaker 1: long-term health and happiness to set smaller goals rather than

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Speaker 1: big ones. But Eric and I actually go back a

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Speaker 1: little further than that episode. A while back, I joined

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Speaker 1: him on his podcast, The One You Feed. We covered

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Speaker 1: some of the same themes we explored in Monday's show,

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Speaker 1: but in that conversation, we went even further. Plus, he

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Speaker 1: was interviewing me. I wanted to share that discussion with

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Speaker 1: you today. I hope you enjoy it. And we'll be

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Speaker 1: back next week with a brand new episode of the show.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to The One You Feed, Throughout time, great thinkers

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Speaker 2: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes

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Speaker 2: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you

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Speaker 2: think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our

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Speaker 2: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy,

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Speaker 2: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of

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Speaker 2: what we do. We think things that hold us back

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Speaker 2: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.

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Speaker 2: Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort

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Speaker 2: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about

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Speaker 2: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,

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Speaker 2: how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Our guest on this episode is Dr. Laurie Santos, a

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Speaker 2: professor of psychology and head of Silliman College at Yale University.

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Speaker 2: She's also the host of the podcast, The Happiness Lab.

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Speaker 1: Dr.

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Speaker 2: Santos is an expert on human cognition and the cognitive

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Speaker 2: biases that impede better choices. Her course, Psychology and the

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Speaker 2: Good Life, teaches students what the science of psychology says

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Speaker 2: about how to make wiser choices and live a life

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Speaker 2: that's happier and more fulfilling. And that class is Yale's

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Speaker 2: most popular course in over 300 years. She's been featured

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Speaker 2: in numerous news outlets, including New York Times, NBC Nightly News,

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Speaker 2: The Today Show, and many, many more, and is also

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Speaker 2: a winner of numerous awards for both science and teaching

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Speaker 2: from institutions such as Yale and the American Psychological Association.

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Speaker 2: Laurie has been featured as one of Popular Science's Brilliant

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Speaker 2: Ten Young Minds and was named Time's Leading Campus Celebrity.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Laurie. Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me on.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited to have you on. You are the

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Speaker 3: creator of a really great podcast called The Happiness Lab,

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Speaker 3: as well as work you do on happiness at Yale

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Speaker 3: and all sorts of things. And we'll get into all

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Speaker 3: that in a minute. But let's start like we always

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Speaker 3: do with a parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent

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Speaker 3: who's talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life,

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Speaker 3: there are two wolves inside of us that are always

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Speaker 3: at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things

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Speaker 3: like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is

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Speaker 3: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred

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Speaker 3: and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it

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Speaker 3: for a second, looks up at their grandparent and says, well,

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Speaker 3: which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed.

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Speaker 3: So I'd like to start off by asking you what

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Speaker 3: that parable means to you in your life and in

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Speaker 3: the work that you do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I've heard the parable before that when

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Speaker 1: you feed, you know, for me, it really shows that

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Speaker 1: happiness and focusing on our mental health takes work and

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Speaker 1: it takes choices, right? And it reminds us not just

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Speaker 1: that happiness takes work, but that there's these interesting opportunity costs, right?

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Speaker 1: That if you're putting your time and your energy, especially

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Speaker 1: your emotional energy into certain kinds of things, you could

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Speaker 1: be doing that at an opportunity cost of the kinds

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Speaker 1: of processes you want to win out, right? And so

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Speaker 1: the wolf metaphor has always been really powerful to me.

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Speaker 1: It's not enough that you focus on the things that matter,

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Speaker 1: you also have to make sure that you're not also

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Speaker 1: focusing on the things that don't matter.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And there's a lot in your work that I

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Speaker 3: think we'll get to as we go through that really

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Speaker 3: hits on that parable. So much of your work, I think,

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Speaker 3: orients around an idea of what we think will make

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Speaker 3: us happy is actually not usually the things that will

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Speaker 3: make us happy. If we think something is going to

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Speaker 3: make us happy, that's where we're going to direct all

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Speaker 3: our energy. And to your point, if all your energy

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Speaker 3: is going there, You don't have enough left to put

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Speaker 3: over on the things that do create happiness. If we

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Speaker 3: had infinite energy, this wouldn't be a problem, right? But

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Speaker 3: it is. And so, yeah, that opportunity cost is really important.

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Speaker 3: I want to start by going a slightly different direction

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Speaker 3: because I did not know this about you until I

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Speaker 3: started doing deeper research. But you are the director of

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Speaker 3: the Yale's Canine Cognition Lab, which that is so cool.

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Speaker 3: That is so cool. I'm a huge dog lover.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the work is relevant in a couple different ways,

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Speaker 1: feeding wolves. We haven't worked with wolves directly, but we

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Speaker 1: have worked with Australian dingoes. This was my kind of

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Speaker 1: day job before I got interested in the science of happiness.

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Speaker 1: I was really interested in this question of what makes

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Speaker 1: humans unique, what makes humans special. And studying canids is

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Speaker 1: really an important way to answer that question, in part

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Speaker 1: because dogs and domesticated dogs in particular grew up alongside humans, right?

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Speaker 1: You know, so this path from becoming a wolf to

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Speaker 1: becoming a canid that could be around people is one

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Speaker 1: that really shaped these animals to pay attention to us

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Speaker 1: in a particular way and maybe even shape their cognitive abilities.

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Speaker 1: So canids are a really fantastic comparison point for all

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Speaker 1: the cool and interesting things that humans do if you're

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Speaker 1: interested in questions of uniqueness, but. But I sadly don't

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Speaker 1: get to spend as much of my time doing the

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Speaker 1: canine work these days.

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Speaker 3: No, it's just as I was looking at some of

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Speaker 3: your publications after like the second one that had dogs

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Speaker 3: or canines in the title, I was like, there's something

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Speaker 3: I'm not understanding about her work here. And so then

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Speaker 3: as I dug a little deeper, I was like, okay.

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Speaker 3: So to that end, if we wanted to translate that

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Speaker 3: work into the happiness work. Is there anything about the

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Speaker 3: work that you do or about dog cognition or animal

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Speaker 3: cognition that would point us in the direction of happiness

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Speaker 3: or any lessons we can sort of, even if we're

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Speaker 3: sort of stretching the analogy a little bit, anything from

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Speaker 3: there that you find interesting?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think there are a couple of things.

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Speaker 1: One is animals are incredibly good at prioritizing some of

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Speaker 1: the stuff that makes them happy, right? I mean, to take,

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Speaker 1: for example, presence, right? Mindfulness, just being in the present moment.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think dogs are a wonderful example of this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think one of the benefits we get

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Speaker 1: from hanging out with dogs, and in fact, there's scientific

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Speaker 1: work to suggest this, is that you become more mindful

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Speaker 1: when you're around your dog. If you're taking your dog

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Speaker 1: for a walk and he's, you know, sniffing the ground

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Speaker 1: and looking at the flowers and paying attention to the sounds,

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Speaker 1: it sort of causes you to do the same thing.

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Speaker 1: It gets you back into your normal sensory experience. And

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Speaker 1: so I think animals can be a great guide for

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Speaker 1: helping us do that. I also think that dogs are

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Speaker 1: a really wonderful way to get social connection. especially if

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Speaker 1: you're having a hard time getting some social connection with humans,

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Speaker 1: you can form that meaningful bond with an animal in

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Speaker 1: a way that gives us so many of the exact

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Speaker 1: same psychological benefits. So the work I was doing with

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Speaker 1: dogs wasn't necessarily on happiness, but they've definitely given me

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Speaker 1: a glimmer into some strategies that work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, dogs are one of my great sources

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Speaker 3: of happiness in life, for sure. It's funny, anytime, if

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Speaker 3: you were to look at my camera roll or you

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Speaker 3: were to look at my gratitude lists, they're always, they're

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Speaker 3: near the very, very top.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 3: So let's talk a little bit about an idea that

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Speaker 3: you use a lot, which I think is really important.

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Speaker 3: And we talk about it on this program. We talk

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Speaker 3: about it in the spiritual habits program. You say a

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Speaker 3: good rule of thumb for all this stuff is little

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Speaker 3: and often.

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Speaker 1: And I think what I mean by that is, you know,

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Speaker 1: we can really find ways to protect our mental health

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Speaker 1: and boost our well-being through the little things that we

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Speaker 1: do if we kind of keep up the habit of

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Speaker 1: doing them often. You know, so I think when we

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Speaker 1: think about the things that are really bringing us down,

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Speaker 1: it's not usually the one-off thing that we happen to

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Speaker 1: do with our time. It's the things that we're doing

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Speaker 1: persistently over and over again that, again, can kind of

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Speaker 1: create this opportunity cost on our happiness. But if you

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Speaker 1: can put in positive habits, even if they're tiny, even

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Speaker 1: if they're baby steps, and you can get yourself to

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Speaker 1: do them more and more, those are the things that

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Speaker 1: are really going to impact your well-being, oftentimes more than

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Speaker 1: you expect. You think, oh, it's this little thing, you know,

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Speaker 1: do a five-minute meditation or It's this tiny thing to

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Speaker 1: make sure I'm texting a friend and checking in. These

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Speaker 1: things matter more than we think.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a Tanzanian proverb that I use in the

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Speaker 3: Spiritual Habits course, which is, little by little, a little

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Speaker 3: becomes a lot. And I just love that idea. And

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Speaker 3: I love how you just pointed to this works for

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Speaker 3: both the good and the bad, right? If social media

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Speaker 3: doesn't make you feel good, I'm not castigating it across

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Speaker 3: the board, but if you're one of those people, in

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Speaker 3: which social media turns into a comparison exercise and leaves

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Speaker 3: you feeling bad about yourself, little by little, that becomes

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Speaker 3: a lot versus just like you're saying, text to friends,

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Speaker 3: little by little, you're nurturing and growing connection. And so

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Speaker 3: I just think that's such an important idea and we

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Speaker 3: tend to discount it because we think we have to

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Speaker 3: make really big changes. And Sometimes a big change can

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Speaker 3: be great and can be helpful and depending on what

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Speaker 3: it is. But for most of us, it's the little changes.

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Speaker 3: You know, how do we work a little more of

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Speaker 3: this into our day?

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, focusing on the little can

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Speaker 1: allow us to do something that also can improve our well-being. Right.

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Speaker 1: Which is to make sure we're harnessing self-compassion. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes we want to make this huge change

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Speaker 1: like I'm going to be perfectly happy and I'm never

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Speaker 1: going to mess up again. we're often trying to make

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Speaker 1: that big change with a certain sort of attitude. And

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Speaker 1: it's an attitude of perfectionism. Like if I screw up,

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Speaker 1: you know, the world is over. And so I think

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Speaker 1: focusing on the little changes means you're giving yourself something

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Speaker 1: you can bite off, something that's actually doable. You're not

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Speaker 1: setting yourself up for failure. You're kind of doing it

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Speaker 1: in a compassionate way. And so I think that's another

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Speaker 1: way that focusing on the little can help us. We're

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Speaker 1: doing it with this mindset of compassion and doability as

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Speaker 1: opposed to I must be this perfect robot that gets

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Speaker 1: everything right the first time.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I think there's so much to be said

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Speaker 3: for positive momentum, right? So when we start doing little

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Speaker 3: things and we're successful, we feel better about ourselves. We

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Speaker 3: feel more confident. We feel like we have more self-efficacy

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Speaker 3: versus when we try and do big things and we fail.

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Speaker 3: You know, you do that long enough that eats away

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Speaker 3: at your sense of your ability to change. You know,

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Speaker 3: I did a lot of behavior coaching for a while

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Speaker 3: and that was such a big thing was people would say,

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Speaker 3: I'm the kind of person who doesn't finish things. And

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Speaker 3: I'd say, well, you haven't finished things in the past,

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Speaker 3: but I don't know that that's a personality trait, right?

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Speaker 3: But we've got to adjust the way we go after

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Speaker 3: these things.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right. And I think we forget that the

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Speaker 1: stories we tell ourselves matter a lot, right? You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a person who doesn't finish things. You know, that's

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Speaker 1: a story that you can update, right? That's a story

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Speaker 1: that has some content that may or may not be

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Speaker 1: true that you could challenge, you know, riddled with these

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Speaker 1: cognitive fallacies. And so, I think focusing on the small

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Speaker 1: can also help us make sure that those stories are accurate.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: We're not trying to come up with a magnum opus

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Speaker 1: story that's going to make sense of everything we've done.

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Speaker 1: We're just talking about, you know, did I get up

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Speaker 1: and like do my five minute gratitude meditation this morning? Right.

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Speaker 1: You know, these tiny things allow us to achieve it,

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Speaker 1: but they allow us to come up with better stories

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Speaker 1: that we can tell ourselves that are stories that are

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Speaker 1: positive ones about growth and so on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Dr. Rick Hansen said something once. He said our

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Speaker 3: stories about ourselves are at least six months out of date.

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Speaker 3: And I think actually that number is way underestimated. I

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Speaker 3: think our stories about ourselves can be years out of date,

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Speaker 3: you know. And so I like that idea of just

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Speaker 3: adjusting a little bit. You mentioned gratitude there. And I

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Speaker 3: thought maybe we could turn towards gratitude for a second

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Speaker 3: because it's one of the skills that you talk about

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Speaker 3: in your happiness course as being a really helpful happiness tool.

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Speaker 3: There's lots of studies about how good gratitude is for

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Speaker 3: us in so many different ways. You know, it's pro-social.

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Speaker 3: It tends to make us often be able to regulate

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Speaker 3: ourselves better, sometimes get more done. I mean, there's a

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Speaker 3: ton of reasons why gratitude is so valuable. So my

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Speaker 3: question to you would be twofold. The first would be,

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Speaker 3: what do you think are some of the most useful

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Speaker 3: strategies for making gratitude part of our life? And then

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Speaker 3: the second question is a little bit more complex. but

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Speaker 3: you talk about hedonic adaptation, which is we get used

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Speaker 3: to things, right? You know, I get a new car

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Speaker 3: and then I get used to having the car. It's

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Speaker 3: no longer special anymore. Well, I'm curious whether we can

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Speaker 3: have hedonic adaptation in our gratitude work, because this is

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Speaker 3: what I feel like happens to me as I do it.

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Speaker 3: And it's really valuable until I've done it for a while.

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Speaker 3: And now I'm back to the same sort of things.

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Speaker 3: And now all of a sudden it's kind of used

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Speaker 3: to the gratitude work. So Question one would be, what

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Speaker 3: are some practices you like? And then question two, what

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Speaker 3: would be some ways of keeping it fresh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Well, in terms of practices that I think work,

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Speaker 1: I mean, part of it is, you know, you got

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Speaker 1: to find what works for you, right? There are practices

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Speaker 1: that might be fantastic for me that you might find cheesy,

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Speaker 1: or you might find onerous. You know, as someone who's

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Speaker 1: an expert on behavior change, as you know, the practices

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Speaker 1: that's going to work is the one that we can

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Speaker 1: get ourselves to do, right? Right, right. Some that I

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Speaker 1: really like are just the simple act of writing down

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Speaker 1: a few things that you're grateful for. I have a

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Speaker 1: little app that I use to do this. I don't

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Speaker 1: think you need an app. If you're a pen and

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Speaker 1: paper person, use pen and paper, but just commit to

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Speaker 1: three to five things you're grateful for every day. And

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Speaker 1: the key, which maybe is going to get to your

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Speaker 1: hedonic adaptation question a little bit, is that ideally those

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Speaker 1: should be different. It doesn't really work if every day

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Speaker 1: you're like, Dog, spouse, coffee, dog, spouse, coffee, dog, spouse, coffee.

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Speaker 1: Like you got to first have to mix it up

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Speaker 1: a bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And you second have to make sure you're feeling it.

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Speaker 1: It can't be rote. I mean, the whole point of

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Speaker 1: gratitude is that it's an emotion and you have to

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Speaker 1: kind of turn it on. But another practice I really love,

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Speaker 1: which for me felt a little bit easier because it

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Speaker 1: meant I was noticing things I was grateful for throughout

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Speaker 1: the day, was a practice that I learned from the

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Speaker 1: author Ross Gay, who has this book called The Book

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Speaker 1: of Delights. And his practice is just he tries to

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Speaker 1: notice things that he finds delightful out there in a world.

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Speaker 1: So it's not like, you know, capital G gratitude of

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Speaker 1: this blessing that came to your life. It's just like

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Speaker 1: you notice fun things out there. Like, you know, this

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Speaker 1: morning as I was walking to get coffee, there was

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Speaker 1: a guy who was like parking near me and he

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Speaker 1: was like blasting old school like Ozzy Osbourne out the

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Speaker 1: window of his car. And he had this big dog

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Speaker 1: that was hanging out. So I looked over and for

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Speaker 1: a second I thought the dog was like jamming along

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Speaker 1: to Ozzy Osbourne. Right. And that was like delight. You know,

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Speaker 1: Ross Gay would put his finger in there and just said,

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Speaker 1: that is a delight.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: And the reason I like the delight practice is first,

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Speaker 1: it's easier than gratitude, right? You don't have to kind

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Speaker 1: of remember this list and write it down. But the

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Speaker 1: second is that it's doing what you want to be

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Speaker 1: doing in the gratitude practice, which is sort of training

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Speaker 1: your attention to the blessings, to the things that are

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Speaker 1: good in life. You're fighting this bias that we know

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Speaker 1: is one that is built in, which is a negativity bias.

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Speaker 1: Our brains are set to notice the big tigers out

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Speaker 1: there in the world, the anxiety-provoking, scary, sad things. It

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Speaker 1: takes some work to train our brains to shift focus

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Speaker 1: and notice the delightful things. So if a gratitude practice

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Speaker 1: seems onerous or like it's going to be too work,

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Speaker 1: commit to noticing the delights. And I like finding a

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Speaker 1: delight buddy where you can like text the buddy like

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Speaker 1: saw a dog hanging out, car playing Ozzy Osbourne. Delight,

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Speaker 1: you know, all caps.

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Speaker 3: That's a great idea.

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Speaker 1: To get to your hedonic adaptation question, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think this is a tough one because There are studies

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Speaker 1: that suggest that we don't hedonically adapt to certain kinds

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Speaker 1: of emotions as easily. And gratitude is one of these

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Speaker 1: that if you're focused on the right stuff, you can

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Speaker 1: continue that feeling long after you expect. You don't see

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Speaker 1: the same hedonic adaptation curve for gratitude. But you have

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Speaker 1: to keep feeling it to get there. And I think

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Speaker 1: the problem with a lot of gratitude practices is we

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Speaker 1: turn them into something that we do rote. It's like

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Speaker 1: brushing our teeth again. It's like, you know. Spouse, dog, coffee,

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Speaker 1: like every single day, right? And you just stop feeling it.

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Speaker 1: And so one way to do that is you make

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Speaker 1: a rule with yourself that it has to be something new.

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Speaker 1: It can be my spouse's feet or his smile or

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Speaker 1: my dog's tail or my dog, the way she drinks

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Speaker 1: the water. You have to commit to finding something novel

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Speaker 1: every single time. And that means you're still in the noticing, right?

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Speaker 1: You're still allowing the gratitude to do what it needs

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Speaker 1: to do, which is you got to feel it. You

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Speaker 1: got to think like, that is amazing that this universe

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Speaker 1: of all the people this dog could be with, of

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Speaker 1: all the dogs I could have, I have this dog.

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Speaker 1: You have to take a moment to feel that. But

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Speaker 1: if you get there, if you allow yourself to feel it,

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Speaker 1: there is evidence suggesting that you won't adapt to it

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Speaker 1: as much. It still kind of can have its effect,

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Speaker 1: maybe even more so than other emotions, which is, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the many, many cool things about gratitude. If

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Speaker 1: you're doing it right, you don't hedonically adapt as much.

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Speaker 3: You said a bunch of things there I'd like to

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Speaker 3: just kind of hit on real quick. I think first

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Speaker 3: is I love that idea of delight. The word I

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Speaker 3: often use is appreciation. Like, what do I appreciate today? Like,

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Speaker 3: to your point, it's smaller than something I'm grateful for.

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Speaker 3: It's just a little flash of a moment that there

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Speaker 3: was something, something that was there. And then the other

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Speaker 3: question I have is about feeling it, because this is

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Speaker 3: an interesting one, right? I've talked on this show a

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Speaker 3: lot about my struggles with depression. Depression, when it comes

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Speaker 3: on me, what it is primarily is lack of feeling, right?

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Speaker 3: Something that you might normally feel just doesn't do it, right?

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Speaker 3: The song that normally is like, oh, I love that

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Speaker 3: song is just like, yeah, it's fine. And so if

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Speaker 3: gratitude is something we need to feel, and yet feelings

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Speaker 3: are difficult to come by, and yet we know that

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Speaker 3: gratitude is something that may help with depression issues. Any

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Speaker 3: thoughts on working around that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think your experience is, of course, really common.

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Speaker 1: I mean, one of the classic symptoms of depression is anhedonia,

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Speaker 1: which is literally like you're not having hedonic moments, these

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Speaker 1: hedonic experiences. And so, yeah, I mean, I think one

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Speaker 1: way to do that is, again, to take this idea

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Speaker 1: of baby steps and a little self-compassion. right? You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're going through a terrible episode, yeah, the song

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Speaker 1: that moved you before isn't going to do so in

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Speaker 1: the same way. You know, the main thing on your

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Speaker 1: gratitude list, you're not going to feel it. And, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's a pain. That sucks, right? But it's something that

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Speaker 1: you need to accept. It's not going to last forever, right?

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Speaker 1: I think these sort of statements that you talk to

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Speaker 1: yourself with can be really powerful in those moments. But

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Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that I think a practice

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Speaker 1: of something like a delight practice can be so powerful

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Speaker 1: is that if you commit to the tiniest thing, like,

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Speaker 1: you can start noticing again, and that can kind of

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Speaker 1: break through. And I do think that these things sort

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Speaker 1: of snowball. I mean, this is one of the things

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Speaker 1: we know in depression, right, is that, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: not getting as much of a hedonic burst every time

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Speaker 1: you do something fun. So then you stop doing things

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Speaker 1: that are fun. And now you really don't have any

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Speaker 1: hedonic burst. And then you're, you know, it's like, so

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Speaker 1: if you can kind of get the snowballing to go

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Speaker 1: very slowly in the other direction, it can be quite powerful. And,

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Speaker 1: and in Ross Gay's book, you know, he talks about

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Speaker 1: how this practice of delight has gotten him through, you know,

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Speaker 1: some really tough times. You know, the book is really

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Speaker 1: honest about issues of racial violence and things like that.

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Speaker 1: And he says, even in the midst of the worst times,

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Speaker 1: you can just notice that one cool thing. It can

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Speaker 1: kind of give you a little, you know, a peak

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Speaker 1: of hope that can help you in a really important way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a couple things you're pointing to there.

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Speaker 3: One is specificity.

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: If I can be more specific in what I'm grateful for,

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Speaker 3: you just named it like the way my dog drinks water,

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Speaker 3: my dog's tail, right? It's the specificity. And then I

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Speaker 3: think the second piece in what you're saying also is

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Speaker 3: that I do think by looking for little moments of,

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Speaker 3: even if the word delight is too strong, little moments

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Speaker 3: of something that's positive shows that even something that feels

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Speaker 3: as all encompassing as depression is It has its moments

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Speaker 3: in which it's waxing and waning. It is not this

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Speaker 3: constant thing. It's not always there in the same level

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Speaker 3: with the same intensity. It seems like it, but these

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Speaker 3: noticing of little delights, as you sort of said, sort

429
00:20:31,326 --> 00:20:34,686
Speaker 3: of allows you to see through these little holes, you know, like,

430
00:20:34,786 --> 00:20:37,226
Speaker 3: oh yeah, okay, there's something out there. It's not all clouds.

431
00:20:37,266 --> 00:20:38,106
Speaker 3: It's not all gray.

432
00:20:38,676 --> 00:20:40,936
Speaker 1: And I think another key is to give yourself permission

433
00:20:40,996 --> 00:20:43,776
Speaker 1: that those things we're supposed to have on our gratitude journal,

434
00:20:43,796 --> 00:20:46,806
Speaker 1: like our spouse and our dog. But, you know, if

435
00:20:46,846 --> 00:20:48,766
Speaker 1: you can find the goofy things, it's one of the

436
00:20:48,786 --> 00:20:51,106
Speaker 1: reasons I love Ross's book is, you know, in his

437
00:20:51,166 --> 00:20:54,506
Speaker 1: big list is like the band El DeBarge, like purple things.

438
00:20:54,526 --> 00:20:57,326
Speaker 1: Why is purple a color? It's such a weird color.

439
00:20:57,406 --> 00:20:59,546
Speaker 1: I think if you can allow yourself a little bit

440
00:20:59,566 --> 00:21:02,236
Speaker 1: of the goofiness, that can kind of snap you out

441
00:21:02,276 --> 00:21:03,776
Speaker 1: of it a little bit, too. It doesn't have to

442
00:21:03,816 --> 00:21:06,646
Speaker 1: be you know, the most meaningful thing in your life.

443
00:21:06,666 --> 00:21:08,406
Speaker 1: You could just be like, yeah, it's pretty good. It's

444
00:21:08,426 --> 00:21:10,976
Speaker 1: a good thing. It's like slightly above baseline and just

445
00:21:11,006 --> 00:21:12,316
Speaker 1: get your brain to notice that stuff.

446
00:21:12,656 --> 00:21:12,796
Speaker 2: Yeah.

447
00:21:12,856 --> 00:21:16,456
Speaker 3: Another person who does that well as a guy, Neil Pasricha,

448
00:21:16,716 --> 00:21:18,536
Speaker 3: it's called the book of awesome. And then he's got

449
00:21:18,596 --> 00:21:21,016
Speaker 3: other books of awesome, but it's basically that thing. He's,

450
00:21:21,116 --> 00:21:23,036
Speaker 3: he's been a guest a couple of times and It's

451
00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:27,116
Speaker 3: just fun. He approaches it in a fun, small way.

452
00:21:27,236 --> 00:21:29,696
Speaker 3: But again, the thing that I notice about his stuff

453
00:21:29,756 --> 00:21:32,726
Speaker 3: is it's so specific. And I think that's an important thing.

454
00:21:32,966 --> 00:21:36,466
Speaker 3: Let's change directions because I have to ask you about

455
00:21:36,806 --> 00:21:40,066
Speaker 3: an episode of the Happiness Lab, which is your podcast.

456
00:21:40,566 --> 00:21:43,866
Speaker 3: And it's about something you worked on with Dallas Taylor

457
00:21:43,906 --> 00:21:48,136
Speaker 3: to create the Handbook for Sonic Happiness. Basically, the idea

458
00:21:48,156 --> 00:21:51,596
Speaker 3: is sound has an enormous impact on happiness and well-being.

459
00:21:51,956 --> 00:21:56,716
Speaker 3: I am an extraordinarily sound-sensitive person. So I'm wondering if

460
00:21:56,776 --> 00:21:59,796
Speaker 3: you can give us a few tips from the handbook

461
00:21:59,816 --> 00:22:00,716
Speaker 3: for sonic happiness.

462
00:22:01,196 --> 00:22:03,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny that you're such a sound-sensitive person. I

463
00:22:03,626 --> 00:22:05,686
Speaker 1: feel like, in general, that might not be a good

464
00:22:05,706 --> 00:22:09,166
Speaker 1: thing for a podcaster. That's a fantastic thing. You can

465
00:22:09,226 --> 00:22:12,166
Speaker 1: hear all the tiny things. Yeah, I mean, one of

466
00:22:12,186 --> 00:22:16,206
Speaker 1: the great things about talking with Dallas was realizing that

467
00:22:16,246 --> 00:22:21,026
Speaker 1: we're not often intervening on sound to promote our happiness

468
00:22:21,066 --> 00:22:22,646
Speaker 1: and our mental health. What do I mean by that?

469
00:22:22,666 --> 00:22:25,766
Speaker 1: You know, we're constantly intervening on our other senses to

470
00:22:25,786 --> 00:22:27,706
Speaker 1: feel better. You know, if I'm having a bad day,

471
00:22:27,786 --> 00:22:29,666
Speaker 1: I want to take a warm bubble bath or maybe

472
00:22:29,706 --> 00:22:32,086
Speaker 1: put on a candle. Like, I want to watch something

473
00:22:32,186 --> 00:22:34,726
Speaker 1: on TV. I want to buy flowers, right? We're hacking

474
00:22:35,266 --> 00:22:38,916
Speaker 1: vision and touch and, like, taste, right? You know, when

475
00:22:38,936 --> 00:22:40,796
Speaker 1: I'm having a bad day, I want some ice cream, right?

476
00:22:40,816 --> 00:22:41,136
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

477
00:22:41,466 --> 00:22:44,106
Speaker 1: We do that quite naturally. And many of us have

478
00:22:44,146 --> 00:22:47,396
Speaker 1: like straightforward go-tos of things in those domains that feel good.

479
00:22:47,836 --> 00:22:50,276
Speaker 1: But we don't often do that as much with sound.

480
00:22:50,356 --> 00:22:52,216
Speaker 1: Maybe a little bit with music, right? You know, if

481
00:22:52,256 --> 00:22:54,856
Speaker 1: I'm having a sad day, maybe I want to enhance

482
00:22:54,896 --> 00:22:56,816
Speaker 1: the sadness and listen to a sad song or listen

483
00:22:56,836 --> 00:22:58,596
Speaker 1: to something peppy to get me out of it. But

484
00:22:58,646 --> 00:23:00,966
Speaker 1: that's pretty limited in the scope of all the sounds

485
00:23:01,026 --> 00:23:03,846
Speaker 1: we could be engaging with. You know, what Dallas really

486
00:23:03,886 --> 00:23:07,906
Speaker 1: recommends is making sure that you're, as much as you can,

487
00:23:08,516 --> 00:23:11,346
Speaker 1: limiting some of the bad sounds and kind of noticing them.

488
00:23:11,366 --> 00:23:14,646
Speaker 1: You know, he talks about even ambient sounds in the room, like,

489
00:23:14,686 --> 00:23:18,366
Speaker 1: you know, the hum of a refrigerator that's really annoying or,

490
00:23:18,386 --> 00:23:21,546
Speaker 1: you know, like just other sounds around you. Sometimes I

491
00:23:21,586 --> 00:23:23,566
Speaker 1: notice this too, like I'm feeling just great and I'm like,

492
00:23:23,586 --> 00:23:25,706
Speaker 1: what's going on? It's like, oh, there's some stupid hum

493
00:23:25,846 --> 00:23:28,246
Speaker 1: like happening in the building next door that's like really

494
00:23:28,286 --> 00:23:31,036
Speaker 1: bugging me, right? So kind of finding ways to limit

495
00:23:31,076 --> 00:23:34,076
Speaker 1: the bad sounds, but really trying to find ways to

496
00:23:34,136 --> 00:23:37,496
Speaker 1: mindfully notice some of the good sounds, you know, and

497
00:23:37,516 --> 00:23:40,276
Speaker 1: trying to get beyond music for something that feels nice.

498
00:23:40,716 --> 00:23:43,676
Speaker 1: You know, for me, it's often very natural sounds kind

499
00:23:43,716 --> 00:23:46,396
Speaker 1: of sound amazing, right? Like take a little hike or

500
00:23:46,476 --> 00:23:48,516
Speaker 1: go somewhere natural, even if it's like a park in

501
00:23:48,556 --> 00:23:52,216
Speaker 1: your neighborhood and just be quiet and notice. And, you know,

502
00:23:52,236 --> 00:23:54,356
Speaker 1: you and I are having this conversation, you know, I'm

503
00:23:54,416 --> 00:23:56,376
Speaker 1: in New England when it's right around the beginning of

504
00:23:56,616 --> 00:23:59,016
Speaker 1: autumn and the leaves are kind of rustling and sometimes

505
00:23:59,036 --> 00:24:01,416
Speaker 1: you can hear the acorns fall and things like that.

506
00:24:01,986 --> 00:24:04,006
Speaker 1: You know, those are true delights for me. You know,

507
00:24:04,046 --> 00:24:06,806
Speaker 1: those are delights in the sound domain. But I'm often

508
00:24:06,846 --> 00:24:09,866
Speaker 1: not giving myself permission to engage with them in the

509
00:24:09,886 --> 00:24:12,366
Speaker 1: same way I would totally give myself permission to engage

510
00:24:12,386 --> 00:24:14,376
Speaker 1: with the taste of an ice cream cone, you know,

511
00:24:14,436 --> 00:24:16,696
Speaker 1: or the warmth of a warm bath, right? Give yourself

512
00:24:16,806 --> 00:24:19,256
Speaker 1: permission to engage in positive sounds.

513
00:24:19,616 --> 00:24:22,016
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the benefit of being a sound sensitive

514
00:24:22,076 --> 00:24:25,116
Speaker 3: person and a person focused on positivity to some degree

515
00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:27,836
Speaker 3: is I've really learned to seek those out. I had

516
00:24:27,876 --> 00:24:32,436
Speaker 3: been a on-again, off-again meditator for a long time. And

517
00:24:32,476 --> 00:24:35,196
Speaker 3: then someone said something to me that I had never

518
00:24:35,256 --> 00:24:38,556
Speaker 3: heard of before. I don't think it's uncommon now, but

519
00:24:38,896 --> 00:24:42,056
Speaker 3: this is 10 years ago. They said, go outside, sit

520
00:24:42,076 --> 00:24:46,496
Speaker 3: outside and just meditate on what you hear. Just follow

521
00:24:46,736 --> 00:24:49,226
Speaker 3: what you hear. And when your mind gets lost in thought,

522
00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:51,906
Speaker 3: just ask again, what can I hear? And all of

523
00:24:51,946 --> 00:24:54,646
Speaker 3: a sudden I was like, this is what I have

524
00:24:54,706 --> 00:24:59,206
Speaker 3: been trying to get. for 20 years from meditation, you know,

525
00:24:59,406 --> 00:25:01,866
Speaker 3: it just really worked. And then that actually allowed me

526
00:25:01,906 --> 00:25:04,746
Speaker 3: to settle enough that the other types of meditation became

527
00:25:04,786 --> 00:25:08,226
Speaker 3: a lot more profound for me. So it really unlocked

528
00:25:08,286 --> 00:25:10,506
Speaker 3: something for me. So I love to go outside and

529
00:25:10,526 --> 00:25:13,826
Speaker 3: listen to sounds. But the downside of a sound sensitive

530
00:25:13,866 --> 00:25:16,736
Speaker 3: person is sort of like you mentioned, if there's a

531
00:25:16,916 --> 00:25:20,256
Speaker 3: rattle or a hum or a something, I mean, I

532
00:25:20,316 --> 00:25:24,226
Speaker 3: am so aware of it. And What I don't know,

533
00:25:24,446 --> 00:25:26,346
Speaker 3: and I can't decide, and I'd be curious to see,

534
00:25:26,366 --> 00:25:28,126
Speaker 3: you know, kind of what your thoughts are and from

535
00:25:28,166 --> 00:25:31,046
Speaker 3: what you've learned about it, is I sometimes worry that

536
00:25:31,086 --> 00:25:34,746
Speaker 3: I'm making myself more neurotic around it. Just, it's a rattle.

537
00:25:34,826 --> 00:25:38,126
Speaker 3: Let it go, Eric. But I don't very well, you know?

538
00:25:38,526 --> 00:25:40,906
Speaker 3: The other one is, and I think there's an actual

539
00:25:41,026 --> 00:25:43,406
Speaker 3: name for this, but I don't know what the name is,

540
00:25:43,846 --> 00:25:46,266
Speaker 3: but it's where the sound of other people eating drives

541
00:25:46,306 --> 00:25:49,266
Speaker 3: you nuts. And I don't know whether you guys discussed

542
00:25:49,466 --> 00:25:50,226
Speaker 3: that part at all.

543
00:25:50,486 --> 00:25:53,416
Speaker 1: A couple things there. One is, I think, Probably a

544
00:25:53,496 --> 00:25:57,296
Speaker 1: lot of us are getting rattled by the rattle psychologically,

545
00:25:57,356 --> 00:25:59,536
Speaker 1: but we're not mindful or aware enough to realize it.

546
00:25:59,616 --> 00:26:01,176
Speaker 1: I know I'm just like, I'm in a bad mood.

547
00:26:01,216 --> 00:26:02,556
Speaker 1: I'm going to strike out again. I'm going to say

548
00:26:02,576 --> 00:26:03,996
Speaker 1: something mean to my husband. And I'm like, oh, wait,

549
00:26:04,016 --> 00:26:06,146
Speaker 1: it was the refrigerator. Like it was like there's a

550
00:26:06,206 --> 00:26:09,126
Speaker 1: causal arrow from this nasty sound. So part of being,

551
00:26:09,266 --> 00:26:12,206
Speaker 1: you know, sound sensitive, you might even say sound mindful, right?

552
00:26:12,226 --> 00:26:14,266
Speaker 1: I mean, sound sensitive is you're really affected by it.

553
00:26:14,266 --> 00:26:16,976
Speaker 1: But sound mindful is you're noticing which things are out there.

554
00:26:17,586 --> 00:26:20,406
Speaker 1: it can just give you some awareness, right? You might

555
00:26:20,426 --> 00:26:22,206
Speaker 1: be able to do something to shut the rattle off.

556
00:26:22,266 --> 00:26:24,906
Speaker 1: And even if you can't, you now at least have

557
00:26:24,946 --> 00:26:27,786
Speaker 1: some awareness, okay, this is going on, right? You know,

558
00:26:27,806 --> 00:26:29,246
Speaker 1: I know you talk a lot on the show about

559
00:26:29,286 --> 00:26:30,986
Speaker 1: addiction and things like that. You know, it's the same

560
00:26:31,046 --> 00:26:33,366
Speaker 1: as craving, right? You know, being mindful of the craving,

561
00:26:33,666 --> 00:26:36,286
Speaker 1: now it's there, it's really present, but now you're aware

562
00:26:36,306 --> 00:26:37,726
Speaker 1: of it. You can choose to do what you want

563
00:26:37,766 --> 00:26:39,216
Speaker 1: to do with it. Maybe you're going to allow it.

564
00:26:39,246 --> 00:26:41,796
Speaker 1: Maybe you're going to non-judgmentally really pay attention to it.

565
00:26:41,796 --> 00:26:44,016
Speaker 1: You know, and this was one of the things, you know,

566
00:26:44,036 --> 00:26:46,496
Speaker 1: that I've seen in sounds that are annoying is sometimes

567
00:26:46,516 --> 00:26:50,126
Speaker 1: people If you can get to recognizing them just as sounds,

568
00:26:50,426 --> 00:26:51,646
Speaker 1: you know, just in the same way that you can

569
00:26:51,686 --> 00:26:54,546
Speaker 1: recognize a craving as it's just a feeling and get

570
00:26:54,606 --> 00:26:56,946
Speaker 1: really curious about it. Like that rattle, you know, what's

571
00:26:56,986 --> 00:26:59,486
Speaker 1: the frequency? The bump, bump, bump. Oh, it makes my

572
00:26:59,586 --> 00:27:01,746
Speaker 1: chest vibrate and things like that. Like now you're just

573
00:27:01,936 --> 00:27:04,636
Speaker 1: digging into it and investigating it in a way that

574
00:27:04,676 --> 00:27:07,156
Speaker 1: kind of causes it to lose its power, right? Like

575
00:27:07,296 --> 00:27:11,576
Speaker 1: you notice it's not just this valence that's like sucky, negative, stop, stop, stop.

576
00:27:11,616 --> 00:27:13,376
Speaker 1: Like you can sort of see it for what it

577
00:27:13,536 --> 00:27:15,956
Speaker 1: is and that can disarm it sometimes too.

578
00:27:15,976 --> 00:27:16,056
Speaker 2: Yeah.

579
00:27:16,316 --> 00:27:18,956
Speaker 3: I like that idea. Actually, I had not thought of

580
00:27:19,256 --> 00:27:24,556
Speaker 3: investigating it more closely. If it's rhythmic, I can capture

581
00:27:24,576 --> 00:27:26,556
Speaker 3: the rhythm of it, and then it sort of disappears.

582
00:27:27,016 --> 00:27:29,566
Speaker 3: It's the intermittent ones. But to your point, I'd either

583
00:27:29,766 --> 00:27:32,566
Speaker 3: try and tell myself, don't be annoyed by it, or

584
00:27:32,586 --> 00:27:34,726
Speaker 3: I make it go away. I do one of those two.

585
00:27:34,786 --> 00:27:37,496
Speaker 3: But I have not that much, now that you're saying it,

586
00:27:37,826 --> 00:27:41,206
Speaker 3: turned towards it in a curious way. Learn more about it.

587
00:27:41,436 --> 00:27:44,636
Speaker 3: How often is it? What are its frequencies? I think

588
00:27:44,656 --> 00:27:45,136
Speaker 3: that's helpful.

589
00:27:45,476 --> 00:27:45,696
Speaker 1: All right.

590
00:27:45,716 --> 00:27:47,796
Speaker 3: What about being driven crazy by the sound of other

591
00:27:47,836 --> 00:27:49,756
Speaker 3: people eating? Can you fix this problem?

592
00:27:50,586 --> 00:27:51,286
Speaker 1: I think you could.

593
00:27:51,326 --> 00:27:51,546
Speaker 3: Yeah.

594
00:27:51,866 --> 00:27:54,606
Speaker 1: Maybe same technique. Get out of the room while you're eating.

595
00:27:55,166 --> 00:27:55,606
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

596
00:27:55,626 --> 00:27:56,146
Speaker 3: It's just funny.

597
00:27:56,226 --> 00:27:59,226
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the same with all affective things, right?

598
00:27:59,346 --> 00:28:02,636
Speaker 1: You know, if you can really investigate your own preferences,

599
00:28:02,736 --> 00:28:06,256
Speaker 1: sometimes you start laughing at yourself, right? You're like, I'm really,

600
00:28:06,316 --> 00:28:08,396
Speaker 1: really annoyed by this guy chewing chips. You know, like

601
00:28:08,616 --> 00:28:10,656
Speaker 1: if you can kind of get to a meta awareness

602
00:28:11,116 --> 00:28:14,806
Speaker 1: of what's really upsetting you then again through this process

603
00:28:14,826 --> 00:28:17,026
Speaker 1: of kind of allowing it and investigating it you can

604
00:28:17,066 --> 00:28:19,466
Speaker 1: sometimes get some purchase on it to be like wait

605
00:28:19,546 --> 00:28:21,456
Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense again it doesn't make it

606
00:28:21,506 --> 00:28:23,676
Speaker 1: perfect and it does take a lot of work right

607
00:28:24,036 --> 00:28:25,656
Speaker 1: but you can kind of get to the other side

608
00:28:25,736 --> 00:28:26,496
Speaker 1: on things.

609
00:28:26,216 --> 00:28:57,966
Speaker 3: So another episode that you had recently it was about

610
00:28:58,086 --> 00:29:00,956
Speaker 3: in essence on one level working too much or you

611
00:29:00,976 --> 00:29:03,276
Speaker 3: know how much is too much to work but The

612
00:29:03,416 --> 00:29:05,436
Speaker 3: insight that came out of it that I thought was

613
00:29:05,656 --> 00:29:09,956
Speaker 3: really interesting was that we all want more time. We

614
00:29:09,996 --> 00:29:11,986
Speaker 3: have this desire. I used to say, I want to

615
00:29:11,996 --> 00:29:14,206
Speaker 3: be able to do whatever I want, whenever I want, right?

616
00:29:14,246 --> 00:29:17,866
Speaker 3: Which is in my case, an unqualified disaster when that occurs.

617
00:29:18,206 --> 00:29:20,986
Speaker 3: But the point of the episode is that there is

618
00:29:21,026 --> 00:29:25,336
Speaker 3: a sweet spot for how much discretionary time is helpful.

619
00:29:25,896 --> 00:29:29,786
Speaker 3: And that even moving Small amounts of discretionary time can

620
00:29:29,826 --> 00:29:32,066
Speaker 3: be very helpful. Back to this little and often. So

621
00:29:32,106 --> 00:29:34,526
Speaker 3: can you tell us a little bit more about that one? Yeah, yeah.

622
00:29:34,546 --> 00:29:36,406
Speaker 1: So this was work that was looking at kind of

623
00:29:36,486 --> 00:29:38,766
Speaker 1: how much discretionary time do we need? It was an

624
00:29:38,846 --> 00:29:42,066
Speaker 1: episode with the psychologist Cassie Holmes, who's fantastic. She's got

625
00:29:42,086 --> 00:29:44,326
Speaker 1: a great new book out on some of these topics.

626
00:29:44,366 --> 00:29:47,386
Speaker 1: And I think we assume that like infinite time is good, right?

627
00:29:47,406 --> 00:29:50,156
Speaker 1: Like all the free time possible. But what she finds

628
00:29:50,216 --> 00:29:52,736
Speaker 1: is that you definitely need some free time, time that

629
00:29:52,756 --> 00:29:55,516
Speaker 1: you would describe as free, that's not scheduled, but it's

630
00:29:55,536 --> 00:29:58,856
Speaker 1: really not infinite. It's actually just a couple hours a day,

631
00:29:58,876 --> 00:30:00,386
Speaker 1: you know, maybe even the range of like two to

632
00:30:00,426 --> 00:30:03,176
Speaker 1: three hours a day. And I think two things there.

633
00:30:03,236 --> 00:30:04,596
Speaker 1: One is like when you realize it doesn't have to

634
00:30:04,636 --> 00:30:07,696
Speaker 1: be infinite, you're like, OK, this seems much more doable. Right.

635
00:30:07,716 --> 00:30:09,996
Speaker 1: Like I think I can move things around to objectively

636
00:30:10,036 --> 00:30:11,936
Speaker 1: get that much free time or it's a little easier

637
00:30:11,956 --> 00:30:14,156
Speaker 1: than if I was going for infinite free time, for example.

638
00:30:14,916 --> 00:30:17,076
Speaker 1: But the other thing that she talks a lot about

639
00:30:17,146 --> 00:30:20,646
Speaker 1: is that we really need to prioritize that free time. Right.

640
00:30:20,806 --> 00:30:23,356
Speaker 1: And I think look really carefully at what's digging into it.

641
00:30:23,366 --> 00:30:25,906
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes what's digging into it is. work and

642
00:30:25,946 --> 00:30:28,246
Speaker 1: paying the bills and, you know, yeah, that's a thing.

643
00:30:28,706 --> 00:30:30,866
Speaker 1: But sometimes what's digging into it is stuff that's just

644
00:30:30,926 --> 00:30:34,146
Speaker 1: like filling our time that we don't need. You know,

645
00:30:34,166 --> 00:30:36,606
Speaker 1: I know you love parables on the show. You know,

646
00:30:36,626 --> 00:30:39,606
Speaker 1: she talks about the perhaps apocryphal tale of some professor

647
00:30:39,656 --> 00:30:42,396
Speaker 1: who was trying to teach his kids, you know, about

648
00:30:42,456 --> 00:30:43,936
Speaker 1: the power of this. And he says, like, you know,

649
00:30:43,956 --> 00:30:45,656
Speaker 1: I have these ping pong balls. How many ping pong

650
00:30:45,676 --> 00:30:48,356
Speaker 1: balls can I fit in this class? People say some

651
00:30:48,396 --> 00:30:50,036
Speaker 1: number of ping pong balls and he puts them in

652
00:30:50,496 --> 00:30:52,296
Speaker 1: and he's like, so is the glass full? And people

653
00:30:52,336 --> 00:30:53,996
Speaker 1: are like, yeah, you know, and then he brings out

654
00:30:54,036 --> 00:30:57,176
Speaker 1: these little like marbles and And he's like, well, you know, actually,

655
00:30:57,196 --> 00:30:58,856
Speaker 1: can I put some marbles in? And they're like, oh, yeah,

656
00:30:58,876 --> 00:31:00,756
Speaker 1: you can. So he fits some marbles in. He says, well,

657
00:31:00,796 --> 00:31:02,556
Speaker 1: now is the glass full? And people are like, yeah.

658
00:31:02,976 --> 00:31:05,376
Speaker 1: And then he pulls out the sand. And he's like, uh-huh, yeah,

659
00:31:05,416 --> 00:31:08,186
Speaker 1: I put the sand in. The reason this is relevant

660
00:31:08,226 --> 00:31:10,726
Speaker 1: is he says, you know, your time is this glass.

661
00:31:11,606 --> 00:31:13,946
Speaker 1: And if you start filling it with the sand first,

662
00:31:14,246 --> 00:31:16,086
Speaker 1: you won't be able to fit the ping pong balls,

663
00:31:16,146 --> 00:31:18,066
Speaker 1: which are the things you really want to be doing

664
00:31:18,086 --> 00:31:20,416
Speaker 1: with your life, the things that really fulfill you and

665
00:31:20,436 --> 00:31:22,626
Speaker 1: build you up. And so I think, you know, with

666
00:31:22,646 --> 00:31:25,246
Speaker 1: that metaphor, I think we can ask the question, like,

667
00:31:25,326 --> 00:31:28,166
Speaker 1: what's the sand in our lives that fill things up,

668
00:31:28,226 --> 00:31:30,126
Speaker 1: you know, and what's the ping pong balls? And sometimes

669
00:31:30,156 --> 00:31:32,296
Speaker 1: when you do that analysis, you realize, you know, the

670
00:31:32,356 --> 00:31:34,876
Speaker 1: sand was, you know, every, you know, free 10 minutes

671
00:31:34,936 --> 00:31:37,316
Speaker 1: I had, I was looking at something stupid on the internet.

672
00:31:37,756 --> 00:31:40,696
Speaker 1: And the sand was ruminating over and over again when

673
00:31:40,716 --> 00:31:42,386
Speaker 1: I could have like, you know, popped out and, you know,

674
00:31:42,406 --> 00:31:44,746
Speaker 1: done a quick workout or something like that, right? It

675
00:31:44,766 --> 00:31:48,046
Speaker 1: really allows us to analyze and be more intentional about

676
00:31:48,086 --> 00:31:50,966
Speaker 1: how we're spending our time. And recognize that it's a

677
00:31:51,046 --> 00:31:53,346
Speaker 1: limited resource that we often don't think of as one.

678
00:31:53,386 --> 00:31:56,836
Speaker 1: Perhaps our most important limited resource, you know. Money, if

679
00:31:56,856 --> 00:31:58,336
Speaker 1: you blow it, you might be able to get more

680
00:31:58,376 --> 00:32:01,496
Speaker 1: money someday. But time when you blow it has gone forever,

681
00:32:01,596 --> 00:32:03,036
Speaker 1: you know, in your life. It's not coming back.

682
00:32:03,376 --> 00:32:07,056
Speaker 3: When we're talking about discretionary time, are we talking about

683
00:32:07,196 --> 00:32:11,036
Speaker 3: time that we get to choose what we want to

684
00:32:11,126 --> 00:32:14,106
Speaker 3: do in? And we may fill it up. Is it

685
00:32:14,126 --> 00:32:17,086
Speaker 3: still discretionary time, for example, if I'm like, all right, well,

686
00:32:17,126 --> 00:32:18,766
Speaker 3: I want to exercise for an hour and I want

687
00:32:18,786 --> 00:32:21,046
Speaker 3: to meditate for 20 minutes and I'd like to do this.

688
00:32:21,406 --> 00:32:24,416
Speaker 3: Would we still consider that sort of discretionary time because

689
00:32:24,506 --> 00:32:26,816
Speaker 3: I don't have to do those things? Or would we

690
00:32:26,916 --> 00:32:29,556
Speaker 3: still say even beyond that sort of thing, I need

691
00:32:29,636 --> 00:32:32,736
Speaker 3: some amount of time that's just do whatever I feel like?

692
00:32:33,066 --> 00:32:35,426
Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly, I think it kind of depends a little

693
00:32:35,446 --> 00:32:37,166
Speaker 1: bit on how you frame it. You know, you use

694
00:32:37,186 --> 00:32:40,276
Speaker 1: the example of like the time to exercise. There's different

695
00:32:40,296 --> 00:32:42,236
Speaker 1: ways to frame that, right? You know, you could frame

696
00:32:42,256 --> 00:32:43,976
Speaker 1: it like I'm done work and I get to do

697
00:32:43,996 --> 00:32:45,996
Speaker 1: the things that are for me. What's the thing for me?

698
00:32:46,116 --> 00:32:48,476
Speaker 1: I'm going to exercise. I'm going to have this amazing

699
00:32:48,516 --> 00:32:51,416
Speaker 1: yoga session, right? Or you could frame that exercise as

700
00:32:51,456 --> 00:32:53,076
Speaker 1: like I have to do it. If I don't do

701
00:32:53,096 --> 00:32:55,866
Speaker 1: my half hour exercise, I'm failing at my happiness mission.

702
00:32:55,906 --> 00:32:57,146
Speaker 1: I'm going to like die of a heart attack. Like

703
00:32:57,606 --> 00:33:00,726
Speaker 1: there's a sort of have to-ness, a should-ness to certain

704
00:33:00,766 --> 00:33:03,316
Speaker 1: kinds of things we do. And, you know, a lot

705
00:33:03,356 --> 00:33:05,596
Speaker 1: of shouldness obviously comes from work and paying the bills

706
00:33:05,636 --> 00:33:08,156
Speaker 1: and things. But sometimes we build up that shouldness in

707
00:33:08,196 --> 00:33:11,036
Speaker 1: our brain for things that aren't a have to, right,

708
00:33:11,076 --> 00:33:12,976
Speaker 1: that are supposed to be a want to, but now

709
00:33:12,996 --> 00:33:16,416
Speaker 1: have somehow turned into a weird should have to. You know,

710
00:33:16,436 --> 00:33:18,196
Speaker 1: and the joke I use with my students is that

711
00:33:18,216 --> 00:33:21,916
Speaker 1: you don't want to be shoulding all over yourself. But

712
00:33:21,936 --> 00:33:24,636
Speaker 1: I think we often should all over ourselves in ways

713
00:33:24,696 --> 00:33:27,206
Speaker 1: that make even the most leisurely things, even the things

714
00:33:27,226 --> 00:33:29,596
Speaker 1: we would normally be doing, you know, as a gift

715
00:33:29,616 --> 00:33:31,976
Speaker 1: to do ourselves, as this thing we should savor, you know,

716
00:33:32,016 --> 00:33:34,406
Speaker 1: this delicious ice cream cone of time that we've spent.

717
00:33:34,986 --> 00:33:37,186
Speaker 1: And it just feels like crappy, like we're just trying

718
00:33:37,206 --> 00:33:38,946
Speaker 1: to like push our thrills through it. You know, it

719
00:33:39,026 --> 00:33:41,306
Speaker 1: feels like the most onerous work task. So I think

720
00:33:41,346 --> 00:33:44,566
Speaker 1: it's not exactly defined by a particular thing. It's often

721
00:33:44,606 --> 00:33:47,916
Speaker 1: defined by our attitude towards that thing. And this is

722
00:33:47,956 --> 00:33:50,576
Speaker 1: one of the time hacks I think can be quite powerful, right?

723
00:33:50,676 --> 00:33:52,976
Speaker 1: Is that you don't necessarily have to change how you're

724
00:33:53,036 --> 00:33:56,456
Speaker 1: objectively spending your time, Yeah, I think that is such

725
00:33:56,516 --> 00:33:59,326
Speaker 1: a powerful intervention is to get to this, I'm choosing

726
00:33:59,386 --> 00:34:13,066
Speaker 1: to do X, you know. have to get to, you know,

727
00:34:13,216 --> 00:34:15,056
Speaker 1: get to do this. It's amazing. Yeah.

728
00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:18,456
Speaker 3: Well, even something like doing work as a parent can

729
00:34:18,816 --> 00:34:21,676
Speaker 3: very much feel like I have to, you know, I

730
00:34:21,696 --> 00:34:24,076
Speaker 3: had this realization, I've shared this on the show a

731
00:34:24,116 --> 00:34:26,176
Speaker 3: number of times when my son was, I don't know

732
00:34:26,216 --> 00:34:27,836
Speaker 3: how old he was, nine or whatever. And I was

733
00:34:27,876 --> 00:34:30,816
Speaker 3: complaining about having to take him to soccer practice again.

734
00:34:31,436 --> 00:34:34,516
Speaker 3: And I just went like, no, I don't. Like, there's

735
00:34:34,556 --> 00:34:36,696
Speaker 3: no law that says I have to take my son

736
00:34:36,716 --> 00:34:39,586
Speaker 3: to soccer practice. Like, I simply don't have to do that.

737
00:34:39,626 --> 00:34:41,446
Speaker 3: Matter of fact, I could choose not to come home

738
00:34:42,086 --> 00:34:43,566
Speaker 3: and his mother would have to take care of him. No,

739
00:34:43,586 --> 00:34:45,166
Speaker 3: I'd have to pay child support, but I could make

740
00:34:45,186 --> 00:34:48,576
Speaker 3: that choice. And just reframing it that way then caused

741
00:34:48,616 --> 00:34:50,536
Speaker 3: me to go, okay, so I am taking him to

742
00:34:50,596 --> 00:34:53,036
Speaker 3: soccer practice. Why am I doing it? And now I'm

743
00:34:53,076 --> 00:34:56,436
Speaker 3: sort of linking this thing to something I value, you know?

744
00:34:56,736 --> 00:34:59,336
Speaker 3: And the same thing, as you're saying with exercise, like

745
00:34:59,676 --> 00:35:01,526
Speaker 3: I can turn it into a have to do it,

746
00:35:01,586 --> 00:35:04,426
Speaker 3: but I don't actually have to do it. I'm totally

747
00:35:04,706 --> 00:35:08,926
Speaker 3: in charge of choosing. I'm choosing to do it. Why? Okay,

748
00:35:09,006 --> 00:35:11,226
Speaker 3: because I know it makes me feel better. I know,

749
00:35:11,266 --> 00:35:14,266
Speaker 3: you know, blah, blah, blah. So I think reframing things

750
00:35:14,366 --> 00:35:17,446
Speaker 3: as choices in our lives, A, gets us out of

751
00:35:17,526 --> 00:35:21,186
Speaker 3: that feeling of obligation, or we have to, that feeling,

752
00:35:21,206 --> 00:35:24,566
Speaker 3: it's a trapped feeling for me, right? And then also

753
00:35:24,646 --> 00:35:27,126
Speaker 3: does get me back in touch with my values, what

754
00:35:27,166 --> 00:35:29,256
Speaker 3: matters to me. Then I can make a choice. Well,

755
00:35:29,516 --> 00:35:31,536
Speaker 3: maybe that doesn't matter to me that much. Why am

756
00:35:31,596 --> 00:35:32,196
Speaker 3: I doing that?

757
00:35:32,576 --> 00:35:34,916
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think that's really profound, right? In two ways.

758
00:35:35,036 --> 00:35:37,216
Speaker 1: One is kind of, as you mentioned, getting back to

759
00:35:37,256 --> 00:35:40,146
Speaker 1: your values, right? So now you can appreciate this thing, right?

760
00:35:40,166 --> 00:35:42,236
Speaker 1: You can have some gratitude for it. It's like allowing

761
00:35:42,256 --> 00:35:45,066
Speaker 1: you to harness the things you care about. I think

762
00:35:45,086 --> 00:35:47,746
Speaker 1: it also gets you back to a sense of agency,

763
00:35:47,866 --> 00:35:50,486
Speaker 1: which just psychologically is powerful. We don't like to be

764
00:35:50,546 --> 00:35:52,966
Speaker 1: forced and helpless in doing things. But I think that

765
00:35:53,026 --> 00:35:55,966
Speaker 1: choice can remind you that it's a choice. And to

766
00:35:56,006 --> 00:35:58,246
Speaker 1: go back to the metaphor you mentioned, you can ask yourself,

767
00:35:58,326 --> 00:36:00,806
Speaker 1: is this the sand or is this the big ping

768
00:36:00,846 --> 00:36:04,196
Speaker 1: pong balls, right? You can really say, you know, and

769
00:36:04,216 --> 00:36:06,096
Speaker 1: like really assess whether or not this is the kind

770
00:36:06,136 --> 00:36:08,456
Speaker 1: of thing you want to be doing. Because sometimes some

771
00:36:08,496 --> 00:36:10,956
Speaker 1: of the things we think are have-tos in life have

772
00:36:10,996 --> 00:36:13,876
Speaker 1: moved away from our values, right? They're not serving us

773
00:36:13,936 --> 00:36:15,976
Speaker 1: in the way that they served us before.

774
00:36:16,006 --> 00:36:16,376
Speaker 3: That's right.

775
00:36:16,566 --> 00:36:19,106
Speaker 1: You mentioned our theories of ourselves are several years old

776
00:36:19,166 --> 00:36:21,906
Speaker 1: in some cases. I think our kind of meta theories

777
00:36:21,946 --> 00:36:23,646
Speaker 1: of what our values are might be wrong. When we

778
00:36:23,686 --> 00:36:26,366
Speaker 1: really introspect, you can be like, I don't have to

779
00:36:26,406 --> 00:36:28,786
Speaker 1: do this. And in fact, I don't want to do this,

780
00:36:28,866 --> 00:36:31,026
Speaker 1: even in terms of my values. So it can allow

781
00:36:31,106 --> 00:36:33,866
Speaker 1: us to engage in behavior changes that really are going

782
00:36:33,886 --> 00:36:35,086
Speaker 1: to serve us a little bit better.

783
00:36:35,446 --> 00:36:35,586
Speaker 2: Yeah.

784
00:36:35,706 --> 00:36:37,766
Speaker 3: You know, a lot of the stuff in your happiness

785
00:36:37,826 --> 00:36:41,876
Speaker 3: course talks about, you know, there's some very basic things

786
00:36:41,956 --> 00:36:44,256
Speaker 3: in there that I often am like, I wish I

787
00:36:44,296 --> 00:36:48,776
Speaker 3: had recommendations that were more interesting than exercise, good sleep

788
00:36:48,936 --> 00:36:52,176
Speaker 3: and meditate. Like feels a little bit like eat your vegetables, right?

789
00:36:52,396 --> 00:36:54,916
Speaker 1: People pay you and they're like, wait, really? This is

790
00:36:54,956 --> 00:36:58,016
Speaker 1: the rocket science of, you know, happiness research right now. Yeah.

791
00:36:58,396 --> 00:36:59,996
Speaker 1: You know, one thing I like to tell my students

792
00:37:00,076 --> 00:37:05,476
Speaker 1: is like, Yeah, totally common wisdom, but definitely not common practice, right?

793
00:37:05,716 --> 00:37:06,396
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good.

794
00:37:06,566 --> 00:37:09,166
Speaker 1: One of the reasons I think it's powerful to understand

795
00:37:09,226 --> 00:37:11,746
Speaker 1: the scientific benefits of these things is I think it

796
00:37:11,786 --> 00:37:14,266
Speaker 1: sometimes can help us pop over a little bit to

797
00:37:14,306 --> 00:37:17,686
Speaker 1: behavior change, right? When you really reflect on the actual

798
00:37:17,746 --> 00:37:20,226
Speaker 1: benefits of something like getting a half hour of cardio

799
00:37:20,306 --> 00:37:23,146
Speaker 1: in or the actual benefits of getting some sleep for

800
00:37:23,166 --> 00:37:25,516
Speaker 1: your mental health, You know, you see, like in my case,

801
00:37:25,556 --> 00:37:27,196
Speaker 1: my students, like they see these graphs of like, do

802
00:37:27,216 --> 00:37:28,816
Speaker 1: you want to be here on your mental health or here?

803
00:37:28,876 --> 00:37:31,126
Speaker 1: You know, this big graph. It's like, oh, like, you know,

804
00:37:31,426 --> 00:37:33,806
Speaker 1: that can sometimes give you the motivation to kind of

805
00:37:33,846 --> 00:37:35,906
Speaker 1: kick in the pants to get back in gear with

806
00:37:35,946 --> 00:37:38,206
Speaker 1: some of these things. But yeah, I mean, there's stuff

807
00:37:38,266 --> 00:37:40,676
Speaker 1: our societies have been saying, our cultures have been saying,

808
00:37:40,736 --> 00:37:43,576
Speaker 1: our grandmothers have been saying, you know, for hundreds, if

809
00:37:43,616 --> 00:37:46,696
Speaker 1: not thousands of years. But somehow in the modern world,

810
00:37:46,736 --> 00:37:48,996
Speaker 1: we've got away from actually practicing these things.

811
00:37:49,556 --> 00:37:53,326
Speaker 3: Yep. So we're talking about this don't shoot on yourself

812
00:37:53,506 --> 00:37:57,346
Speaker 3: or reflecting on choice, right? Which is very valuable. There

813
00:37:57,406 --> 00:37:59,436
Speaker 3: are still going to be times, you know, with me,

814
00:37:59,586 --> 00:38:02,696
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, I know unequivocally the single best thing

815
00:38:02,756 --> 00:38:05,396
Speaker 3: I can do for my mental health is exercise. Like

816
00:38:05,456 --> 00:38:08,316
Speaker 3: it is the number one intervention for me. I know that.

817
00:38:08,456 --> 00:38:12,316
Speaker 3: I have internalized that. And yet there are days where

818
00:38:12,336 --> 00:38:16,636
Speaker 3: I'm like, I just... don't want to do this so

819
00:38:16,756 --> 00:38:19,136
Speaker 3: there's a certain amount of like yes i want to

820
00:38:19,176 --> 00:38:20,956
Speaker 3: have agency and i don't want to do this and

821
00:38:20,976 --> 00:38:22,476
Speaker 3: there's a certain amount of time where there is a

822
00:38:22,556 --> 00:38:25,416
Speaker 3: need to sort of push and say eric this is

823
00:38:25,456 --> 00:38:27,666
Speaker 3: good for you and do something that in the moment

824
00:38:27,706 --> 00:38:29,526
Speaker 3: i may not be wanting to do so how do

825
00:38:29,566 --> 00:38:32,206
Speaker 3: you balance those two sort of you know not getting

826
00:38:32,306 --> 00:38:35,406
Speaker 3: locked into obligation not making something that's good for us

827
00:38:35,486 --> 00:38:38,546
Speaker 3: a chore knowing that sometimes we have to just go

828
00:38:38,566 --> 00:38:39,666
Speaker 3: through the motion I.

829
00:38:39,606 --> 00:38:41,346
Speaker 1: Mean, if you only have days when you experience this,

830
00:38:41,366 --> 00:38:47,006
Speaker 1: you're doing well because I have months. I think, you know,

831
00:38:47,206 --> 00:38:50,266
Speaker 1: one of the big insights I think that the research

832
00:38:50,526 --> 00:38:53,436
Speaker 1: shows us is that a lot of this isn't what

833
00:38:53,476 --> 00:38:56,896
Speaker 1: the actual activities themselves are, but it's how we talk

834
00:38:56,936 --> 00:39:00,996
Speaker 1: to ourselves about them, right? So the shooting brain is

835
00:39:01,216 --> 00:39:04,426
Speaker 1: really this kind of drill sergeant kind of idea of

836
00:39:04,486 --> 00:39:06,846
Speaker 1: motivation where you just think if I just scream at

837
00:39:06,886 --> 00:39:09,926
Speaker 1: myself and berate myself for being such, you know, idiot

838
00:39:09,966 --> 00:39:11,946
Speaker 1: that I won't want to go to the gym, then

839
00:39:12,006 --> 00:39:13,436
Speaker 1: that'll motivate me to go to the gym.

840
00:39:13,476 --> 00:39:13,606
Speaker 3: Right.

841
00:39:13,646 --> 00:39:15,836
Speaker 1: And that feels like a should. It feels like it

842
00:39:15,876 --> 00:39:17,776
Speaker 1: can turn the best thing that you love the most

843
00:39:18,186 --> 00:39:21,456
Speaker 1: into this thing that feels like an external obligation. But

844
00:39:21,476 --> 00:39:24,196
Speaker 1: then you also don't want to have the pendulum shift

845
00:39:24,216 --> 00:39:26,096
Speaker 1: too far in the other direction where you go into

846
00:39:26,136 --> 00:39:28,676
Speaker 1: like indulgent mode where you're like, oh, do whatever. Just

847
00:39:28,696 --> 00:39:30,876
Speaker 1: like be this crazy hedonist and hurt yourself.

848
00:39:30,936 --> 00:39:31,056
Speaker 3: Right.

849
00:39:31,076 --> 00:39:33,616
Speaker 1: Because that can lead down a bad path, too. And

850
00:39:33,636 --> 00:39:35,226
Speaker 1: so what you're trying to do is to find a

851
00:39:35,236 --> 00:39:38,106
Speaker 1: happy medium, always hard, of course, but one of the

852
00:39:38,246 --> 00:39:40,476
Speaker 1: voices to channel. I think that helps with that happy

853
00:39:40,536 --> 00:39:44,396
Speaker 1: medium is a voice of self-compassion. Self-compassion in the way

854
00:39:44,436 --> 00:39:47,946
Speaker 1: that researchers like Kristen Neff at UT Austin talk about it,

855
00:39:48,316 --> 00:39:50,836
Speaker 1: where you're trying to talk to yourself as a close

856
00:39:50,896 --> 00:39:53,756
Speaker 1: friend would talk to you, right? You know, so let's say,

857
00:39:53,776 --> 00:39:55,426
Speaker 1: you know, you haven't been to the gym in a while,

858
00:39:55,446 --> 00:39:57,916
Speaker 1: you're feeling like crap, Your close friend shows up. What

859
00:39:57,936 --> 00:39:59,156
Speaker 1: are they going to say to you? They're not going

860
00:39:59,176 --> 00:40:01,416
Speaker 1: to be like, Eric, you need to get your act

861
00:40:01,456 --> 00:40:03,616
Speaker 1: together and get to the gym. What a loser. Like,

862
00:40:03,636 --> 00:40:05,076
Speaker 1: they're not going to scream at you. They're not going

863
00:40:05,116 --> 00:40:06,796
Speaker 1: to be like, no, you have tomorrow morning, 8 a.m.

864
00:40:06,816 --> 00:40:08,156
Speaker 1: You got to go to the gym. Like, I'm going

865
00:40:08,176 --> 00:40:10,436
Speaker 1: to beat you up or something. Right. But they're also

866
00:40:10,526 --> 00:40:12,106
Speaker 1: not going to be like, no, not a problem that

867
00:40:12,126 --> 00:40:14,246
Speaker 1: you're never going to the gym. Like, eat more ice cream. Like,

868
00:40:14,266 --> 00:40:17,146
Speaker 1: sit on your butt. Like, they're going to be like, Eric,

869
00:40:17,186 --> 00:40:19,206
Speaker 1: what's going on? What's going on? Why aren't you going

870
00:40:19,246 --> 00:40:21,706
Speaker 1: to the gym? Right. They might be curious. They're going

871
00:40:21,726 --> 00:40:23,826
Speaker 1: to be kind. They're going to try to get to

872
00:40:23,846 --> 00:40:26,586
Speaker 1: the bottom of it. They're not going to let you indulge.

873
00:40:27,266 --> 00:40:31,426
Speaker 1: Self-compassion is not self-indulgence. But they're going to try to

874
00:40:31,466 --> 00:40:33,396
Speaker 1: figure out what's going on. And I think that's sort

875
00:40:33,436 --> 00:40:35,416
Speaker 1: of the attitude we need to take to ourselves. When

876
00:40:35,436 --> 00:40:38,776
Speaker 1: we're feeling that resistance, one move is to actually get

877
00:40:38,856 --> 00:40:42,696
Speaker 1: curious about the resistance and say, what's going on? And

878
00:40:42,736 --> 00:40:44,576
Speaker 1: I've done this. I mean, I definitely have had this

879
00:40:44,656 --> 00:40:47,696
Speaker 1: specifically with exercise a lot. As I said, it's not

880
00:40:47,756 --> 00:40:50,646
Speaker 1: days for me. Sometimes it's months. But I find that

881
00:40:50,686 --> 00:40:53,046
Speaker 1: when I get curious about it, it can help. Like

882
00:40:53,086 --> 00:40:55,476
Speaker 1: what's happening? Why does this feel like an obligation? What

883
00:40:55,516 --> 00:40:58,316
Speaker 1: have I done? And sometimes you analyze and you realize like,

884
00:40:58,336 --> 00:41:01,476
Speaker 1: you know, it's the particular thing I'm compelling myself to do.

885
00:41:01,916 --> 00:41:03,676
Speaker 1: There are other things that feel like a should in

886
00:41:03,716 --> 00:41:05,716
Speaker 1: my life. And if I can't harness that time that

887
00:41:05,736 --> 00:41:08,246
Speaker 1: I was exercising for something else, like there's another thing

888
00:41:08,286 --> 00:41:10,586
Speaker 1: that I'm missing that I want to get into. But

889
00:41:10,726 --> 00:41:12,746
Speaker 1: all of that is it's not necessarily which solution I

890
00:41:12,786 --> 00:41:15,006
Speaker 1: come up with. It's just the fact that being curious

891
00:41:15,046 --> 00:41:18,166
Speaker 1: about the resistance is can allow you to stop butting

892
00:41:18,226 --> 00:41:20,546
Speaker 1: heads against it. Either kind of plowing through it like

893
00:41:20,606 --> 00:41:23,226
Speaker 1: a drill sergeant, which doesn't work, or ignoring it and

894
00:41:23,276 --> 00:41:26,316
Speaker 1: letting it continue when the resistance is really not serving you.

895
00:41:26,456 --> 00:41:29,096
Speaker 1: So again, it's this kind of how you talk to

896
00:41:29,136 --> 00:41:32,816
Speaker 1: yourself and allowing yourself to kind of get curious and

897
00:41:32,876 --> 00:41:35,316
Speaker 1: pay attention and investigate what's going on with you.

898
00:41:35,336 --> 00:41:38,776
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's really good. I think another phenomenon

899
00:41:38,956 --> 00:41:42,296
Speaker 3: I've noticed in myself is, particularly with exercise, it's like

900
00:41:42,376 --> 00:41:45,806
Speaker 3: I look at exercise and I'm like, okay, My plan

901
00:41:45,846 --> 00:41:47,766
Speaker 3: is I'm going to do a 60 minute bike ride

902
00:41:47,806 --> 00:41:50,466
Speaker 3: that day. And I know how much energy a 60

903
00:41:50,466 --> 00:41:53,006
Speaker 3: minute bike ride takes. It takes 10 units of energy.

904
00:41:53,376 --> 00:41:56,136
Speaker 3: And I look inside and I'm like, I have got one.

905
00:41:56,596 --> 00:41:59,676
Speaker 3: This is not going to happen, right? So, you know,

906
00:41:59,716 --> 00:42:02,136
Speaker 3: the other just sort of simple thing to do is

907
00:42:02,156 --> 00:42:04,736
Speaker 3: to break it down and go like, okay, can I

908
00:42:04,776 --> 00:42:07,256
Speaker 3: get on my bike shoes? That takes one unit of energy.

909
00:42:07,276 --> 00:42:08,316
Speaker 3: I got one unit of energy.

910
00:42:08,356 --> 00:42:08,576
Speaker 2: Good.

911
00:42:08,816 --> 00:42:12,866
Speaker 3: I ease myself one step at a time into the

912
00:42:12,906 --> 00:42:16,976
Speaker 3: thing can be another, just sort of a simple hack,

913
00:42:17,036 --> 00:42:18,896
Speaker 3: for lack of a better word, to kind of get

914
00:42:19,116 --> 00:42:21,436
Speaker 3: over that hump, because I don't know what it is

915
00:42:21,476 --> 00:42:23,976
Speaker 3: about exercise. I've asked, maybe you have a theory on this.

916
00:42:24,056 --> 00:42:26,546
Speaker 3: I've never gotten a good answer for it or not

917
00:42:26,586 --> 00:42:29,946
Speaker 3: a complete answer, which is I have exercised, let's say,

918
00:42:29,966 --> 00:42:32,526
Speaker 3: I don't know, 5,000 times in my life. I don't

919
00:42:32,546 --> 00:42:34,326
Speaker 3: know what the number is. It's a big number now, right?

920
00:42:34,346 --> 00:42:38,176
Speaker 3: I'm not a young man. Every single time I've done it,

921
00:42:38,446 --> 00:42:41,006
Speaker 3: when I'm done, I'm like that, I'm so glad I

922
00:42:41,026 --> 00:42:44,966
Speaker 3: did that. That was the right choice. Never once, not

923
00:42:45,246 --> 00:42:47,226
Speaker 3: once have I been like, oh man, I wish I

924
00:42:47,246 --> 00:42:49,996
Speaker 3: didn't do that, right? You would think that it would

925
00:42:50,006 --> 00:42:51,976
Speaker 3: just be easy to do it, right? It just seems

926
00:42:52,016 --> 00:42:54,696
Speaker 3: like my brain would learn that's good, do it. And

927
00:42:54,796 --> 00:42:58,196
Speaker 3: yet it's still sometimes a big effort. I don't know

928
00:42:58,216 --> 00:43:00,696
Speaker 3: if it just comes down to conservation of energy as

929
00:43:00,756 --> 00:43:02,956
Speaker 3: a species. I don't know. You have any thoughts on that?

930
00:43:02,976 --> 00:43:04,246
Speaker 3: Because it's strange to me.

931
00:43:04,586 --> 00:43:06,546
Speaker 1: You're good if it's just exercise for you. I mean,

932
00:43:06,566 --> 00:43:10,106
Speaker 1: for me, it's like, sit down to journal, do your meditation,

933
00:43:10,146 --> 00:43:12,786
Speaker 1: like call your mom. Like there's so, and so one

934
00:43:12,846 --> 00:43:15,586
Speaker 1: hint that we get from the neuroscience is that you'd

935
00:43:15,626 --> 00:43:17,916
Speaker 1: like to think that, you know, the brain was organized

936
00:43:17,936 --> 00:43:20,076
Speaker 1: in the following way. It was good at detecting what

937
00:43:20,136 --> 00:43:22,136
Speaker 1: I really liked, you know, what drove pleasure. It would

938
00:43:22,176 --> 00:43:25,126
Speaker 1: notice that really well. And then it would have mechanisms

939
00:43:25,166 --> 00:43:27,756
Speaker 1: that motivate you to say, hey, whenever you feel that,

940
00:43:27,776 --> 00:43:30,036
Speaker 1: you know, that little burst of pleasure, do that more often.

941
00:43:30,156 --> 00:43:33,016
Speaker 1: Turns out the brain doesn't have that many pleasure centers.

942
00:43:33,136 --> 00:43:35,636
Speaker 1: They're like really tiny and hard to find. Even as

943
00:43:35,876 --> 00:43:38,036
Speaker 1: neuroscience researchers early on were looking for them, like we

944
00:43:38,076 --> 00:43:41,146
Speaker 1: don't have any pleasure centers, meaning. we don't often notice

945
00:43:41,226 --> 00:43:44,726
Speaker 1: what feels good, right? We notice things that really hack

946
00:43:44,766 --> 00:43:47,726
Speaker 1: into those systems. So, you know, drugs of addiction, like

947
00:43:47,786 --> 00:43:48,726
Speaker 1: those hack into the system.

948
00:43:48,766 --> 00:43:48,966
Speaker 3: Great.

949
00:43:48,986 --> 00:43:51,196
Speaker 1: We notice that those feel good and those are very

950
00:43:51,236 --> 00:43:54,516
Speaker 1: hooked up to the motivation systems. You know, sweet things, right?

951
00:43:54,536 --> 00:43:57,016
Speaker 1: You know, these visceral states we get. But, you know,

952
00:43:57,036 --> 00:43:59,716
Speaker 1: the nice warm feeling I get from doing a nice

953
00:43:59,776 --> 00:44:01,836
Speaker 1: gesture to somebody, you know, the warmth I get from

954
00:44:01,876 --> 00:44:06,366
Speaker 1: social connection, the exercise, endorphin high, don't notice it as much. However,

955
00:44:06,426 --> 00:44:08,966
Speaker 1: the brain has lots and lots of neural real estate

956
00:44:09,066 --> 00:44:11,896
Speaker 1: devoted to what you might call wanting. So if the

957
00:44:11,936 --> 00:44:14,176
Speaker 1: pleasure systems are like the liking, the brain has lots

958
00:44:14,216 --> 00:44:17,806
Speaker 1: of wanting stuff. And so you get these systems that

959
00:44:17,846 --> 00:44:21,186
Speaker 1: like give you lots of craving to do stuff that,

960
00:44:21,366 --> 00:44:23,006
Speaker 1: you know, just happen to be a hack in this

961
00:44:23,086 --> 00:44:25,946
Speaker 1: liking system. Again, whether it's drugs of addiction or things

962
00:44:25,966 --> 00:44:28,606
Speaker 1: like social media or, you know, all these like little

963
00:44:28,646 --> 00:44:31,106
Speaker 1: dopamine hacks, our brain is really ready to go after those,

964
00:44:31,506 --> 00:44:33,996
Speaker 1: but it has no mechanism to learn about, you know,

965
00:44:34,016 --> 00:44:36,916
Speaker 1: the big highs, the you know, kind of like deeper

966
00:44:36,996 --> 00:44:39,376
Speaker 1: pleasures in life. And that sucks. It's such a stupid

967
00:44:39,396 --> 00:44:41,276
Speaker 1: way to organize the brain. I mean, it probably worked

968
00:44:41,296 --> 00:44:44,016
Speaker 1: for rats, great for them, but like not for us,

969
00:44:44,036 --> 00:44:46,776
Speaker 1: you know? So how do you kind of combine these

970
00:44:46,836 --> 00:44:49,636
Speaker 1: systems for wanting and liking better? You know, all the

971
00:44:49,676 --> 00:44:52,796
Speaker 1: forms of liking, get them to talk to your wanting better. Sadly,

972
00:44:52,816 --> 00:44:55,876
Speaker 1: there's not an obvious way, but there are hints that

973
00:44:56,076 --> 00:44:58,776
Speaker 1: one way you can do it is to kind of

974
00:44:58,896 --> 00:45:03,506
Speaker 1: ramp up your intentional noticing of the rewards you get.

975
00:45:04,056 --> 00:45:06,656
Speaker 1: So my colleague, Hedy Kober, who's a neuroscientist at Yale,

976
00:45:06,676 --> 00:45:11,026
Speaker 1: she's really interested in mindfulness approaches to addiction and things

977
00:45:11,066 --> 00:45:12,886
Speaker 1: like that. You know, claims that you can use the

978
00:45:12,926 --> 00:45:15,306
Speaker 1: same sort of approaches to notice the good things, just

979
00:45:15,346 --> 00:45:17,406
Speaker 1: as you can with, say, a craving for a cigarette

980
00:45:17,426 --> 00:45:19,726
Speaker 1: or something. Notice, like, actually what I'm craving is kind

981
00:45:19,746 --> 00:45:21,476
Speaker 1: of gross, you know, like really pay attention to how

982
00:45:21,496 --> 00:45:23,056
Speaker 1: this makes you feel, which is like not that good.

983
00:45:23,736 --> 00:45:26,376
Speaker 1: You can do the reverse for something like exercise. And

984
00:45:26,396 --> 00:45:28,516
Speaker 1: so this is something she practices all the time. She's

985
00:45:28,536 --> 00:45:30,356
Speaker 1: like the annoying friend that always wants to do like

986
00:45:30,396 --> 00:45:32,416
Speaker 1: the hard yoga or the run or the like, you know,

987
00:45:32,436 --> 00:45:34,396
Speaker 1: she never has the thing that we were just describing.

988
00:45:35,076 --> 00:45:37,496
Speaker 1: But it's in part because she's forced herself at the

989
00:45:37,616 --> 00:45:39,546
Speaker 1: end of it. In that moment you talk about, you're like,

990
00:45:39,586 --> 00:45:42,986
Speaker 1: this feels great to sit there and meditate on it. Like, oh,

991
00:45:43,026 --> 00:45:45,886
Speaker 1: my chest feels lighter. I feel really good, right? Like

992
00:45:45,926 --> 00:45:49,426
Speaker 1: she's kind of giving her brain some time to be like, wait,

993
00:45:49,506 --> 00:45:51,506
Speaker 1: like the reward areas that are kind of slow, unless

994
00:45:51,546 --> 00:45:53,926
Speaker 1: it's like a straight up dopamine hit. They can kind

995
00:45:53,986 --> 00:45:57,126
Speaker 1: of notice this stuff. And, you know, does that perfectly

996
00:45:57,246 --> 00:46:00,276
Speaker 1: lock up your wanting and liking systems? No. But I

997
00:46:00,316 --> 00:46:02,596
Speaker 1: think it can kind of help this sort of mindfulness

998
00:46:02,636 --> 00:46:05,676
Speaker 1: practice of noticing the rewarding parts. Just in the same

999
00:46:05,716 --> 00:46:07,696
Speaker 1: way you might notice that the negative things that are

1000
00:46:07,736 --> 00:46:09,996
Speaker 1: not serving you when you sort of notice those consequences

1001
00:46:10,056 --> 00:46:12,616
Speaker 1: and really attend to how they feel, they can kind

1002
00:46:12,656 --> 00:46:16,746
Speaker 1: of get into that circuit a bit more too. Music

1003
00:46:16,786 --> 00:46:18,826
Speaker 1: Music Music.

1004
00:46:45,116 --> 00:47:15,526
Speaker 3: Thank you. That's a really interesting perspective, the liking and

1005
00:47:15,586 --> 00:47:18,166
Speaker 3: wanting systems. And a lot of the things that these

1006
00:47:18,496 --> 00:47:22,336
Speaker 3: pleasures we're describing that come from wholesome activity, they're a

1007
00:47:22,336 --> 00:47:25,456
Speaker 3: subtler thing. And so savoring them is really important. It's

1008
00:47:25,476 --> 00:47:28,736
Speaker 3: just so interesting. Having been somebody who had drugs of addiction, right,

1009
00:47:28,776 --> 00:47:31,876
Speaker 3: as a heroin addict, it amazes me looking back on

1010
00:47:32,166 --> 00:47:34,246
Speaker 3: the amount of pleasure I was getting at the end

1011
00:47:34,326 --> 00:47:38,206
Speaker 3: was so small compared to the price I was paying.

1012
00:47:38,946 --> 00:47:41,676
Speaker 3: You know, and I've heard people describe some theories of

1013
00:47:41,736 --> 00:47:45,976
Speaker 3: addiction people have is that there's learning disorder associated with

1014
00:47:46,036 --> 00:47:50,476
Speaker 3: it in that your brain is just not updating its prior,

1015
00:47:50,596 --> 00:47:53,096
Speaker 3: so to speak, right? It just, it's stuck on the

1016
00:47:53,156 --> 00:47:56,796
Speaker 3: heroin good signal, even though heroin is clearly not any

1017
00:47:56,856 --> 00:48:00,186
Speaker 3: longer good. My brain is like, it doesn't get it,

1018
00:48:00,326 --> 00:48:02,926
Speaker 3: you know? And so I think that these things are

1019
00:48:03,226 --> 00:48:06,006
Speaker 3: really tricky, that liking and wanting things. I think it's

1020
00:48:06,026 --> 00:48:07,986
Speaker 3: really interesting that the brain has a lot of real

1021
00:48:08,026 --> 00:48:10,076
Speaker 3: estate devoted to wanting. Mm hmm.

1022
00:48:10,256 --> 00:48:14,266
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. And that the wanting sticks really strongly

1023
00:48:14,366 --> 00:48:16,946
Speaker 1: to certain things, right? You know, again, drugs of abuse

1024
00:48:16,966 --> 00:48:19,726
Speaker 1: a lot of times are hacking your dopamine system, as

1025
00:48:19,786 --> 00:48:22,486
Speaker 1: does the intermittent reward of your Instagram feed, you know,

1026
00:48:22,666 --> 00:48:25,686
Speaker 1: as does the like really central pleasures like sugar and,

1027
00:48:25,726 --> 00:48:28,406
Speaker 1: you know, lounging around and things. But that wanting system

1028
00:48:28,426 --> 00:48:31,646
Speaker 1: has nothing to stick on to for these bigger pleasures.

1029
00:48:31,916 --> 00:48:33,956
Speaker 1: And it doesn't update well. You know, as you mentioned,

1030
00:48:33,976 --> 00:48:35,576
Speaker 1: I think one of the sad things, you know, if

1031
00:48:35,616 --> 00:48:38,276
Speaker 1: you're really addicted to a particular drug is that you're

1032
00:48:38,316 --> 00:48:40,706
Speaker 1: habituated to it. You're definitely not getting Not only are

1033
00:48:40,726 --> 00:48:43,126
Speaker 1: the consequences super high, but you're also probably not getting

1034
00:48:43,166 --> 00:48:45,096
Speaker 1: the same pleasure that you were getting in the beginning

1035
00:48:45,116 --> 00:48:46,956
Speaker 1: because your brain's kind of used to it. But yet

1036
00:48:46,976 --> 00:48:49,156
Speaker 1: still the wanting systems like want, want, want.

1037
00:48:49,176 --> 00:48:49,476
Speaker 2: That's right.

1038
00:48:49,496 --> 00:48:51,396
Speaker 1: If I could go back in evolutionary time and like

1039
00:48:51,456 --> 00:48:55,496
Speaker 1: tweak one thing about the brain, it would probably be

1040
00:48:55,536 --> 00:48:59,186
Speaker 1: to put more pleasure zones for the bigger, you know,

1041
00:48:59,206 --> 00:49:01,266
Speaker 1: more meaningful pleasures. And it would be to hook the

1042
00:49:01,306 --> 00:49:03,386
Speaker 1: wanting systems up a little bit better to those.

1043
00:49:03,446 --> 00:49:03,566
Speaker 2: But.

1044
00:49:04,106 --> 00:49:06,486
Speaker 1: Sadly, I did not get consulted on how brains should

1045
00:49:06,506 --> 00:49:07,746
Speaker 1: be designed. So, oh well.

1046
00:49:08,466 --> 00:49:10,986
Speaker 3: So do you think though that, and this is just

1047
00:49:11,186 --> 00:49:15,036
Speaker 3: pure conjecture, that if we as a species manage to

1048
00:49:15,116 --> 00:49:18,696
Speaker 3: not exterminate ourselves in the next several thousand years, that

1049
00:49:18,836 --> 00:49:21,416
Speaker 3: that will change? Because to your point, for rats, it's

1050
00:49:21,436 --> 00:49:26,106
Speaker 3: a very simple system, right? They don't have meaningful pleasures

1051
00:49:26,146 --> 00:49:28,566
Speaker 3: in the same way that we do, right? Do you

1052
00:49:28,626 --> 00:49:32,336
Speaker 3: think that we might evolve to be a little wiser

1053
00:49:32,396 --> 00:49:35,376
Speaker 3: about these things and to shake off some of this

1054
00:49:35,616 --> 00:49:39,016
Speaker 3: evolutionary baggage one being like that maybe we would realize

1055
00:49:39,076 --> 00:49:42,416
Speaker 3: like uh sugar and fat are not always good do

1056
00:49:42,436 --> 00:49:44,446
Speaker 3: you think that humans will evolve and again this is

1057
00:49:44,486 --> 00:49:46,126
Speaker 3: just conjecture but i'm curious what you.

1058
00:49:46,066 --> 00:49:50,026
Speaker 1: Think yeah yeah no totally scientifically speaking, I think these

1059
00:49:50,126 --> 00:49:53,676
Speaker 1: selection pressures have to be pressured to change things around

1060
00:49:53,696 --> 00:49:55,616
Speaker 1: in the brain. You know, if sugar and fat were

1061
00:49:55,656 --> 00:49:58,976
Speaker 1: killing us, you know, then we might over time develop

1062
00:49:59,076 --> 00:50:01,556
Speaker 1: adaptations not to like it. And that's kind of true,

1063
00:50:01,616 --> 00:50:05,526
Speaker 1: but not so quickly, you know, in like real evolutionary time.

1064
00:50:05,586 --> 00:50:09,406
Speaker 1: Like evolution always moves towards directions of adaptation, but sometimes

1065
00:50:09,446 --> 00:50:11,546
Speaker 1: does it really slowly, right? You know, so not in

1066
00:50:11,586 --> 00:50:13,546
Speaker 1: our lifetime and not in a long time for the

1067
00:50:13,586 --> 00:50:17,016
Speaker 1: human species. That said, I think, you know, this is

1068
00:50:17,096 --> 00:50:20,176
Speaker 1: where cognitive hacks can come in, right? You know, if

1069
00:50:20,236 --> 00:50:24,736
Speaker 1: we can get good at noticing, mindfully paying attention to

1070
00:50:24,796 --> 00:50:28,116
Speaker 1: certain rewards, you know, that really seems to be a

1071
00:50:28,156 --> 00:50:30,736
Speaker 1: hack on the system. It takes a tremendous amount of work.

1072
00:50:30,796 --> 00:50:32,116
Speaker 1: I mean, this is like, you know, we're talking like

1073
00:50:32,596 --> 00:50:35,436
Speaker 1: Buddhist meditation levels of, you know, commitment to this stuff.

1074
00:50:35,846 --> 00:50:37,646
Speaker 1: But there's a sense in which you're kind of hacking

1075
00:50:37,686 --> 00:50:39,206
Speaker 1: these things. And this is one of the things I

1076
00:50:39,266 --> 00:50:41,886
Speaker 1: love about, you know, recent neuroscience work that looks at

1077
00:50:41,926 --> 00:50:45,496
Speaker 1: people engage in these ancient spiritual practices is that they

1078
00:50:45,546 --> 00:50:47,936
Speaker 1: are literally hacking their brain. You know, if you look

1079
00:50:47,996 --> 00:50:51,796
Speaker 1: at a long-term meditator, they just have less neural real

1080
00:50:51,856 --> 00:50:54,756
Speaker 1: estate devoted to mind wandering. You know, if you look

1081
00:50:54,816 --> 00:50:57,276
Speaker 1: at a monk who's done, you know, many, many hours

1082
00:50:57,316 --> 00:51:01,036
Speaker 1: of compassionate meditation, their brains just go more quickly to

1083
00:51:01,116 --> 00:51:04,166
Speaker 1: engaging with compassion to other people. If you look at

1084
00:51:04,526 --> 00:51:09,526
Speaker 1: drug addicts who've used mindfulness practices to overcome cravings, When

1085
00:51:09,566 --> 00:51:11,226
Speaker 1: you look at, you know, their brain when they're in

1086
00:51:11,276 --> 00:51:14,056
Speaker 1: a craving state, it looks different than, you know, a

1087
00:51:14,116 --> 00:51:16,756
Speaker 1: recovering addict who might not have used these mindfulness practices.

1088
00:51:16,816 --> 00:51:19,156
Speaker 1: And so there are hints that we can start hacking

1089
00:51:19,196 --> 00:51:21,836
Speaker 1: these systems through work and so on. That's not as

1090
00:51:21,936 --> 00:51:25,546
Speaker 1: easy as like, you know, meteor hits, like only people

1091
00:51:25,586 --> 00:51:28,186
Speaker 1: with certain wanting liking systems stick around. It'd be way easier,

1092
00:51:28,246 --> 00:51:31,026
Speaker 1: you know, although maybe more tragic. But the good news

1093
00:51:31,086 --> 00:51:34,196
Speaker 1: is that with effort and intention, there are some hacks

1094
00:51:34,236 --> 00:51:35,196
Speaker 1: that can help this stuff.

1095
00:51:35,566 --> 00:51:38,936
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we can change this wiring extensively. My

1096
00:51:38,976 --> 00:51:41,396
Speaker 3: own life just being a testament to that. I've shared

1097
00:51:41,436 --> 00:51:44,156
Speaker 3: this story several times recently on the show. So sorry, listeners,

1098
00:51:44,216 --> 00:51:46,576
Speaker 3: if it's getting boring, but I think it's an important one,

1099
00:51:46,616 --> 00:51:49,636
Speaker 3: which is my mom broke her hip and I was

1100
00:51:49,976 --> 00:51:53,016
Speaker 3: picking up all her prescriptions. I was carrying Oxycontin back

1101
00:51:53,056 --> 00:51:55,296
Speaker 3: and forth from my mom's house. The amazing thing is

1102
00:51:55,356 --> 00:51:58,606
Speaker 3: not only did I not want it, I didn't even

1103
00:51:58,906 --> 00:52:01,086
Speaker 3: think about it. It was a month or two into

1104
00:52:01,106 --> 00:52:03,956
Speaker 3: it that I was like, that's incredible. But I would

1105
00:52:03,996 --> 00:52:07,086
Speaker 3: have robbed somebody at gunpoint for that once upon a time.

1106
00:52:07,386 --> 00:52:09,166
Speaker 3: You know, I mean, I think that just speaks to

1107
00:52:09,306 --> 00:52:13,566
Speaker 3: change is really possible if we just keep doing these things. Now,

1108
00:52:13,586 --> 00:52:15,526
Speaker 3: I've got a lot of years away from heroin, so

1109
00:52:15,986 --> 00:52:18,196
Speaker 3: it doesn't happen overnight, but it is possible.

1110
00:52:18,356 --> 00:52:20,576
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that's important to remember. You know,

1111
00:52:20,716 --> 00:52:22,616
Speaker 1: it gets back to something we were talking about before

1112
00:52:22,636 --> 00:52:26,316
Speaker 1: that little and often, right? The often is the key,

1113
00:52:26,376 --> 00:52:28,736
Speaker 1: I think, in your case, right? Like you have to

1114
00:52:28,856 --> 00:52:31,826
Speaker 1: fight that craving or allow it or investigate it. a

1115
00:52:31,886 --> 00:52:33,826
Speaker 1: lot to get to the point that you're at, but

1116
00:52:33,866 --> 00:52:36,026
Speaker 1: it does get easier over time for sure.

1117
00:52:36,566 --> 00:52:39,866
Speaker 3: We've been talking a fair amount about behavior change here,

1118
00:52:40,386 --> 00:52:43,856
Speaker 3: and there's lots of techniques and tools for behavior change.

1119
00:52:43,896 --> 00:52:48,756
Speaker 3: But one of them is that the support of other

1120
00:52:48,816 --> 00:52:52,396
Speaker 3: people or a term I've seen you use as cultural

1121
00:52:52,476 --> 00:52:56,026
Speaker 3: or religious structures. You talk about how it seems kind

1122
00:52:56,046 --> 00:52:58,946
Speaker 3: of very clear that like your CrossFit gym or your

1123
00:52:58,986 --> 00:53:02,936
Speaker 3: church or these things can help make behavior change occur.

1124
00:53:03,056 --> 00:53:05,576
Speaker 3: And you then go on to say, well, what's driving it?

1125
00:53:05,656 --> 00:53:08,506
Speaker 3: Is it the beliefs of the organization of the thing,

1126
00:53:08,626 --> 00:53:11,626
Speaker 3: or is it simply the commitment to it? And I

1127
00:53:11,666 --> 00:53:13,926
Speaker 3: just would love to hear you kind of talk through

1128
00:53:13,946 --> 00:53:16,146
Speaker 3: that again, because I think it's really interesting. Yeah, yeah.

1129
00:53:16,206 --> 00:53:18,286
Speaker 1: I mean, so you know this better than anyone, your

1130
00:53:18,306 --> 00:53:20,206
Speaker 1: listeners to your podcast, if they've been listening, probably know

1131
00:53:20,226 --> 00:53:24,026
Speaker 1: this better than anyone. Behavior change is a hard, hard, hard, hard, right?

1132
00:53:24,496 --> 00:53:26,476
Speaker 1: So any hacks that we can figure out to help

1133
00:53:26,636 --> 00:53:28,606
Speaker 1: us can be huge. And I think one of the

1134
00:53:28,626 --> 00:53:30,646
Speaker 1: hacks that we forget about, we love this sort of

1135
00:53:30,686 --> 00:53:33,526
Speaker 1: Protestant work ethic idea that like, I'll just power through it,

1136
00:53:33,566 --> 00:53:36,006
Speaker 1: you know, me, me, me, this individual changing my behavior

1137
00:53:36,046 --> 00:53:38,486
Speaker 1: against the world. But one thing we find is that

1138
00:53:38,546 --> 00:53:41,906
Speaker 1: behavior change often seems a lot easier when you have

1139
00:53:42,026 --> 00:53:45,826
Speaker 1: environments and structures around you that are kind of consistent

1140
00:53:45,866 --> 00:53:48,416
Speaker 1: with that change. You know, what do I mean? Like

1141
00:53:48,516 --> 00:53:50,736
Speaker 1: if you want to exercise, that's much easier if all

1142
00:53:50,756 --> 00:53:53,756
Speaker 1: your friends exercise, right? Like that's much easier if you

1143
00:53:53,796 --> 00:53:56,016
Speaker 1: have like, you know, this like padded out home gym,

1144
00:53:56,056 --> 00:53:58,906
Speaker 1: that's amazing, right? Like that's much easier if you just

1145
00:53:58,966 --> 00:54:01,386
Speaker 1: happen to live in a place where, you know, there's

1146
00:54:01,466 --> 00:54:03,486
Speaker 1: no cars, you got to walk all the time. You're

1147
00:54:03,506 --> 00:54:05,646
Speaker 1: just going to get that in more naturally. So the

1148
00:54:05,686 --> 00:54:09,106
Speaker 1: environments can really help us. And sometimes those environments are

1149
00:54:09,206 --> 00:54:12,296
Speaker 1: physical structures, you know, like lots of walking paths and,

1150
00:54:12,376 --> 00:54:15,376
Speaker 1: you know, an elliptical machine in your apartment. But sometimes

1151
00:54:15,416 --> 00:54:19,526
Speaker 1: those structures are really Like cognitive structures, they're belief systems, right?

1152
00:54:19,546 --> 00:54:22,526
Speaker 1: You know, they're about the people around me value this, right?

1153
00:54:22,546 --> 00:54:24,956
Speaker 1: The people around me are committed to this. And I

1154
00:54:24,956 --> 00:54:27,516
Speaker 1: think both of those kinds of things can really work

1155
00:54:27,696 --> 00:54:30,156
Speaker 1: their magic. Those are both kinds of structures that seem

1156
00:54:30,176 --> 00:54:32,756
Speaker 1: to really help us. But it's often not the kind

1157
00:54:32,796 --> 00:54:35,576
Speaker 1: of beliefs and values we think. You know, so one

1158
00:54:35,616 --> 00:54:37,396
Speaker 1: of the big findings I talk about in my class

1159
00:54:37,476 --> 00:54:42,066
Speaker 1: is that overall religious individuals tend to be happier. People

1160
00:54:42,086 --> 00:54:44,226
Speaker 1: who have a belief in afterlife, belief in God, and

1161
00:54:44,266 --> 00:54:45,996
Speaker 1: so on. And so you could say like, well, maybe

1162
00:54:46,016 --> 00:54:49,056
Speaker 1: it's their personal beliefs, right? Like they have this belief

1163
00:54:49,096 --> 00:54:51,666
Speaker 1: in afterlife that gives them meaning and so on. Turns

1164
00:54:51,726 --> 00:54:53,666
Speaker 1: out not so much. It turns out if you factor

1165
00:54:53,686 --> 00:54:56,626
Speaker 1: certain things out, a belief in a god or something

1166
00:54:56,646 --> 00:54:59,206
Speaker 1: like that doesn't actually matter. What seems to matter a

1167
00:54:59,246 --> 00:55:02,406
Speaker 1: lot more is the practices you engage in. Religious individuals

1168
00:55:02,466 --> 00:55:05,206
Speaker 1: go to services, so they engage in social connections. Religious

1169
00:55:05,246 --> 00:55:08,666
Speaker 1: individuals often are part of organizations that engage in charity,

1170
00:55:08,806 --> 00:55:11,336
Speaker 1: so they do nice things for each other. They pray.

1171
00:55:11,416 --> 00:55:13,856
Speaker 1: And so they get a chance to be mindful and

1172
00:55:13,896 --> 00:55:16,856
Speaker 1: take some time where they're present. They often engage in

1173
00:55:16,896 --> 00:55:20,326
Speaker 1: practices related to things like gratitude and other pro-social emotions.

1174
00:55:20,826 --> 00:55:22,946
Speaker 1: You know, they're just like physically around other people all

1175
00:55:22,986 --> 00:55:25,126
Speaker 1: the time because they're engaging with these other folks. And

1176
00:55:25,166 --> 00:55:28,006
Speaker 1: so we think structures have to be about our own

1177
00:55:28,086 --> 00:55:30,766
Speaker 1: personal beliefs and like what we believe and what we value.

1178
00:55:31,186 --> 00:55:34,096
Speaker 1: But sometimes the environments around us can be shaping our

1179
00:55:34,136 --> 00:55:37,376
Speaker 1: behavior in ways that are so much easier. I have

1180
00:55:37,396 --> 00:55:40,336
Speaker 1: a recent episode of my podcast where I interview people

1181
00:55:40,926 --> 00:55:43,606
Speaker 1: the inventor of these so-called blue zones, Dan Buettner. He's

1182
00:55:43,626 --> 00:55:46,396
Speaker 1: an author who studies places around the world that tend

1183
00:55:46,416 --> 00:55:49,736
Speaker 1: to have these positive practices, either for like physical health,

1184
00:55:49,776 --> 00:55:52,876
Speaker 1: like places that induce longevity where people live healthily for

1185
00:55:52,916 --> 00:55:56,396
Speaker 1: a really long time, or places that induce happiness. And

1186
00:55:56,436 --> 00:55:59,116
Speaker 1: he's fond of saying that like any attempt to individually

1187
00:55:59,156 --> 00:56:02,456
Speaker 1: change your behavior without your environment supporting you is doomed

1188
00:56:02,556 --> 00:56:04,896
Speaker 1: to failure. Like, you know, you could do all these

1189
00:56:04,936 --> 00:56:07,626
Speaker 1: different hacks and download apps and get coaches and whatever.

1190
00:56:08,026 --> 00:56:10,026
Speaker 1: But if you just moved to a place that was

1191
00:56:10,066 --> 00:56:12,516
Speaker 1: happier or moved to a place where you exercise more,

1192
00:56:12,536 --> 00:56:15,796
Speaker 1: that would impact your behavior so much more. He's being

1193
00:56:15,856 --> 00:56:17,696
Speaker 1: a little harsh. We know that with work, you can

1194
00:56:17,736 --> 00:56:20,296
Speaker 1: change your behavior. But it's definitely true that if you

1195
00:56:20,336 --> 00:56:23,336
Speaker 1: can find some environmental support, that helps enormously.

1196
00:56:23,956 --> 00:56:26,546
Speaker 3: It makes such a huge difference. I mean, I got

1197
00:56:26,606 --> 00:56:30,026
Speaker 3: sober in 12-step communities. And I've had friends of mine

1198
00:56:30,046 --> 00:56:31,866
Speaker 3: who were former heroin addicts say it was harder to

1199
00:56:31,906 --> 00:56:35,516
Speaker 3: quit smoking than drinking. stopped doing heroin. And there's a

1200
00:56:35,556 --> 00:56:38,056
Speaker 3: variety of reasons for that. But one of them, I think,

1201
00:56:38,116 --> 00:56:41,566
Speaker 3: is simply when we went to get off heroin, we

1202
00:56:41,606 --> 00:56:44,806
Speaker 3: were embedded in a community that was focused on that.

1203
00:56:45,206 --> 00:56:48,916
Speaker 3: And when we stopped smoking, primarily, most people just simply go,

1204
00:56:48,926 --> 00:56:50,486
Speaker 3: all right, I'm going to stop smoking. And they do

1205
00:56:50,526 --> 00:56:53,206
Speaker 3: it entirely on their own. You know, I think it

1206
00:56:53,416 --> 00:56:56,256
Speaker 3: makes such a difference. And I think this idea between

1207
00:56:56,316 --> 00:57:00,946
Speaker 3: beliefs and practices is I've often heard people describe Judaism

1208
00:57:01,026 --> 00:57:05,306
Speaker 3: as a religion that's less about belief and more about practices.

1209
00:57:05,826 --> 00:57:09,686
Speaker 3: I often try and tweeze apart what in 12-step programs worked?

1210
00:57:09,966 --> 00:57:13,686
Speaker 3: What was it that was actually working there? And it's

1211
00:57:13,706 --> 00:57:15,786
Speaker 3: interesting to think about, but I do think that the

1212
00:57:15,846 --> 00:57:18,826
Speaker 3: community aspect of it, that piece of it is really,

1213
00:57:18,866 --> 00:57:22,606
Speaker 3: really important. In 12-step programs, they talk about unity, service,

1214
00:57:22,646 --> 00:57:25,066
Speaker 3: and recovery. And I think that's really interesting. The unity

1215
00:57:25,106 --> 00:57:27,856
Speaker 3: or the people, the service is doing something that cares

1216
00:57:27,896 --> 00:57:32,186
Speaker 3: about other people. And then the recovery was some method

1217
00:57:32,506 --> 00:57:36,246
Speaker 3: of personal internal transformation. I think that can just be

1218
00:57:36,286 --> 00:57:40,406
Speaker 3: applied to us generally as humans. You know, those three

1219
00:57:40,466 --> 00:57:43,066
Speaker 3: things are really helpful orienting points.

1220
00:57:43,666 --> 00:57:45,856
Speaker 1: Totally. And I also think this idea of, you know,

1221
00:57:45,936 --> 00:57:48,556
Speaker 1: giving up control, you know, which can be complicated. I

1222
00:57:48,596 --> 00:57:50,676
Speaker 1: think it has certain religious overtones and so on. But,

1223
00:57:51,236 --> 00:57:55,336
Speaker 1: you know, ultimately, it's really accepting your common humanity, you know,

1224
00:57:55,356 --> 00:57:57,716
Speaker 1: which is something that people who do work on self-compassion

1225
00:57:57,756 --> 00:58:00,266
Speaker 1: talk about, right? It's like, I'm not going to be perfect.

1226
00:58:00,406 --> 00:58:02,296
Speaker 1: I'm just going to be human. I am going to

1227
00:58:02,336 --> 00:58:02,956
Speaker 1: be tempted.

1228
00:58:02,976 --> 00:58:03,236
Speaker 3: Right.

1229
00:58:03,256 --> 00:58:04,916
Speaker 1: You know, like I have to kind of come to

1230
00:58:04,956 --> 00:58:07,636
Speaker 1: terms with the fact that I'm not the one who's

1231
00:58:07,676 --> 00:58:11,856
Speaker 1: in control all the time. And that humility can often

1232
00:58:12,176 --> 00:58:15,676
Speaker 1: ground us in a whole host of attitudes and ways

1233
00:58:15,716 --> 00:58:18,276
Speaker 1: of talking to ourselves that allow us to be a

1234
00:58:18,296 --> 00:58:20,926
Speaker 1: little bit more self-compassionate, right? Like, you know, I'm not

1235
00:58:20,966 --> 00:58:22,826
Speaker 1: going to be perfect. Maybe let's not put myself in

1236
00:58:22,866 --> 00:58:25,426
Speaker 1: this situation. It's going to be really hard. Like, I'm

1237
00:58:25,446 --> 00:58:27,986
Speaker 1: not Superman, right? Like, I need to ask for help, right?

1238
00:58:28,066 --> 00:58:30,326
Speaker 1: You know, all of these are practices where you're kind

1239
00:58:30,366 --> 00:58:33,706
Speaker 1: of compassionately dealing with yourself, but those are practices that

1240
00:58:33,746 --> 00:58:36,046
Speaker 1: also make behavior change much easier. Yeah.

1241
00:58:36,366 --> 00:58:39,636
Speaker 3: I'd like to turn now towards loneliness. There's a lot

1242
00:58:39,676 --> 00:58:42,976
Speaker 3: of it out there and it's not such an easy

1243
00:58:43,056 --> 00:58:46,596
Speaker 3: thing to solve. I was talking with someone who is

1244
00:58:46,796 --> 00:58:49,756
Speaker 3: lonely about this and this is a person who's had

1245
00:58:50,336 --> 00:58:53,736
Speaker 3: lots of loss in their life. So everything that they

1246
00:58:53,876 --> 00:58:57,056
Speaker 3: sort of relied on is just kind of gone and

1247
00:58:57,076 --> 00:58:59,796
Speaker 3: they're sharing how You know, it's one thing when you've

1248
00:58:59,816 --> 00:59:03,226
Speaker 3: got a spouse to go out and find some additional

1249
00:59:03,366 --> 00:59:06,046
Speaker 3: community by joining a club, but that when you have

1250
00:59:06,186 --> 00:59:09,706
Speaker 3: none of those foundations, it's very, very difficult. So I'm

1251
00:59:09,766 --> 00:59:13,566
Speaker 3: wondering what might you say to someone who's in that position, who's,

1252
00:59:13,706 --> 00:59:17,866
Speaker 3: you know, really isolated and becoming unisolated feels like a

1253
00:59:17,926 --> 00:59:21,656
Speaker 3: tremendous amount of work. and is very discouraged by it.

1254
00:59:21,656 --> 00:59:25,176
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think first they can recognize that you are

1255
00:59:25,216 --> 00:59:27,996
Speaker 1: not alone. Like a lot of people relate, right? Like

1256
00:59:28,056 --> 00:59:31,126
Speaker 1: loneliness is skyrocketing, even if you don't have people talking

1257
00:59:31,166 --> 00:59:33,496
Speaker 1: to you about it. I mean, you know, even the

1258
00:59:33,536 --> 00:59:36,116
Speaker 1: Surgeon General of the United States, Vivek Murthy, has been

1259
00:59:36,176 --> 00:59:38,436
Speaker 1: focusing on loneliness in part because he thinks it's a

1260
00:59:38,476 --> 00:59:41,356
Speaker 1: public health crisis. A public health crisis because of how

1261
00:59:41,416 --> 00:59:43,906
Speaker 1: dangerous it is, but also a public health crisis because

1262
00:59:43,946 --> 00:59:46,286
Speaker 1: of how common it is, right? And so I think

1263
00:59:46,326 --> 00:59:48,266
Speaker 1: that's step number one is like, you know, you're not

1264
00:59:48,286 --> 00:59:50,566
Speaker 1: a loser. There's not something wrong with you. Like this

1265
00:59:50,606 --> 00:59:52,806
Speaker 1: is something a lot of people are going through. But

1266
00:59:52,826 --> 00:59:55,286
Speaker 1: that also comes with, you know, something that's related, which

1267
00:59:55,326 --> 00:59:58,566
Speaker 1: is that if you reach out in a baby step way,

1268
00:59:59,016 --> 01:00:02,576
Speaker 1: you'll often be surprised about how many people will follow up.

1269
01:00:02,616 --> 01:00:05,796
Speaker 1: I think one of our fears of loneliness or one

1270
01:00:05,816 --> 01:00:08,346
Speaker 1: of our worries when we're feeling lonely about doing something

1271
01:00:08,386 --> 01:00:10,806
Speaker 1: about it is we're kind of simulating how much work

1272
01:00:11,246 --> 01:00:13,006
Speaker 1: it's going to take and how much success we're going

1273
01:00:13,026 --> 01:00:15,006
Speaker 1: to get, right? We're simulating, oh, it's going to be

1274
01:00:15,026 --> 01:00:17,046
Speaker 1: such a pain to like call somebody or go to

1275
01:00:17,086 --> 01:00:19,546
Speaker 1: this club or whatever. And we're simulating, you know, if

1276
01:00:19,586 --> 01:00:21,816
Speaker 1: I do reach out, people aren't going to like me, right?

1277
01:00:22,416 --> 01:00:24,836
Speaker 1: And scientists have looked at this and there's evidence that

1278
01:00:24,876 --> 01:00:28,156
Speaker 1: both of those intuitions are wrong. Our predictions about how

1279
01:00:28,176 --> 01:00:31,476
Speaker 1: much of a pain in the butt, how stressful, how annoying,

1280
01:00:31,536 --> 01:00:34,016
Speaker 1: how maybe awkward it's going to be to reach out,

1281
01:00:34,336 --> 01:00:36,206
Speaker 1: they're all wrong. Like our brain is telling us, oh,

1282
01:00:36,236 --> 01:00:37,546
Speaker 1: don't do that. It's going to be a pain. Not

1283
01:00:37,566 --> 01:00:39,686
Speaker 1: going to be as much of a pain as you think, right?

1284
01:00:40,246 --> 01:00:41,946
Speaker 1: And our brain is also telling us stuff about how

1285
01:00:42,006 --> 01:00:44,926
Speaker 1: successful it's going to be. And there's so much evidence

1286
01:00:44,946 --> 01:00:47,346
Speaker 1: that we mispredict how many people are going to like us.

1287
01:00:47,816 --> 01:00:50,666
Speaker 1: We mispredict how much people will appreciate or attempt at

1288
01:00:50,706 --> 01:00:52,526
Speaker 1: reaching out, especially if we haven't reached out in a

1289
01:00:52,546 --> 01:00:56,726
Speaker 1: long time. And I think recognizing that those biases are biases,

1290
01:00:56,786 --> 01:00:59,746
Speaker 1: that our intuitions are wrong, can be really helpful when

1291
01:00:59,766 --> 01:01:02,366
Speaker 1: you're making the decision to try to overcome your loneliness.

1292
01:01:02,386 --> 01:01:03,746
Speaker 1: Because you're like, this feels like it's going to be

1293
01:01:03,766 --> 01:01:05,646
Speaker 1: a lot of work. You can be like, nope, science

1294
01:01:05,666 --> 01:01:07,646
Speaker 1: says it's not. Let me just try it, right? Let

1295
01:01:07,666 --> 01:01:09,706
Speaker 1: me just try it and take a baby step towards it.

1296
01:01:10,106 --> 01:01:12,136
Speaker 1: And then often, if you're paying attention, you'll get some

1297
01:01:12,176 --> 01:01:14,706
Speaker 1: positive reinforcement back. You think, oh, it's going to be

1298
01:01:14,726 --> 01:01:16,386
Speaker 1: so onerous to go to this club, especially if I

1299
01:01:16,406 --> 01:01:18,336
Speaker 1: don't have a spouse, I have nobody to talk to.

1300
01:01:18,936 --> 01:01:21,676
Speaker 1: But then when you try it, it actually works. The key, though,

1301
01:01:21,716 --> 01:01:24,336
Speaker 1: I think, especially with the science, is that you kind

1302
01:01:24,356 --> 01:01:26,616
Speaker 1: of have to try it the right way. And the

1303
01:01:26,656 --> 01:01:29,276
Speaker 1: right way is really making sure that you're doing that

1304
01:01:29,356 --> 01:01:32,216
Speaker 1: first step to reach out, including when you go to

1305
01:01:32,256 --> 01:01:36,236
Speaker 1: a place. So I've seen friends who say, oh, I'm lonely.

1306
01:01:36,416 --> 01:01:38,656
Speaker 1: Maybe I should go to CrossFit or I'll go to

1307
01:01:38,696 --> 01:01:40,566
Speaker 1: a book club or I'll go to this thing. Mm-hmm.

1308
01:01:40,886 --> 01:01:42,476
Speaker 1: But then they get to the book club and they like,

1309
01:01:42,796 --> 01:01:44,626
Speaker 1: you know, are on their phone checking their email or

1310
01:01:44,646 --> 01:01:46,336
Speaker 1: they're like playing with the cat, you know, at the

1311
01:01:46,376 --> 01:01:48,696
Speaker 1: book club, right? Like they're not actually talking to people.

1312
01:01:49,376 --> 01:01:51,536
Speaker 1: And what does that do? You know, it reinforces a

1313
01:01:51,576 --> 01:01:53,516
Speaker 1: cycle where people think, well, you're not interested in them,

1314
01:01:53,616 --> 01:01:55,136
Speaker 1: so they're not going to try to talk to you.

1315
01:01:55,156 --> 01:01:58,136
Speaker 1: And so I think we need to recognize that it's

1316
01:01:58,196 --> 01:02:00,916
Speaker 1: not just putting ourselves in this situation, but it's having

1317
01:02:01,016 --> 01:02:05,956
Speaker 1: our own openness. Often solutions to loneliness involve not like

1318
01:02:06,016 --> 01:02:08,666
Speaker 1: someone reaching out to us, But us reaching out to

1319
01:02:08,756 --> 01:02:11,456
Speaker 1: other people, us trying to solve other people's loneliness, us

1320
01:02:11,496 --> 01:02:12,716
Speaker 1: feeling like, you know, we're the ones who are going

1321
01:02:12,736 --> 01:02:15,376
Speaker 1: to talk to somebody so they feel better. That's what

1322
01:02:15,416 --> 01:02:16,476
Speaker 1: kind of opens things up.

1323
01:02:16,956 --> 01:02:20,556
Speaker 3: That's a really interesting perspective. And actually, I think my

1324
01:02:20,636 --> 01:02:24,556
Speaker 3: own experience would bear that out in certain cases. One-on-one,

1325
01:02:24,596 --> 01:02:26,236
Speaker 3: I am pretty fine with people. Put me in a

1326
01:02:26,376 --> 01:02:28,276
Speaker 3: room full of people that I don't know and I

1327
01:02:28,416 --> 01:02:31,226
Speaker 3: hate it. You know, if I could have three glasses

1328
01:02:31,266 --> 01:02:33,566
Speaker 3: of whiskey, I would like it a whole lot more.

1329
01:02:33,786 --> 01:02:36,186
Speaker 3: But I don't. And so what I found, though, in

1330
01:02:36,226 --> 01:02:38,586
Speaker 3: some of those situations is exactly what you just said,

1331
01:02:38,646 --> 01:02:42,536
Speaker 3: is the strategy for me sometimes is look around and

1332
01:02:42,636 --> 01:02:45,916
Speaker 3: see who looks lonely and go approach that person as

1333
01:02:45,976 --> 01:02:48,696
Speaker 3: a starting point. It's funny when you said that, like,

1334
01:02:48,816 --> 01:02:50,256
Speaker 3: you know, you go to the event and you're on

1335
01:02:50,296 --> 01:02:52,456
Speaker 3: your phone or you're playing with the other people's cat.

1336
01:02:52,516 --> 01:02:55,056
Speaker 3: You know, I am totally that way. Put me in

1337
01:02:55,096 --> 01:02:57,676
Speaker 3: a new social situation. What I've learned about myself is

1338
01:02:58,216 --> 01:03:00,796
Speaker 3: I may not even be able that first couple times

1339
01:03:00,836 --> 01:03:03,976
Speaker 3: to overcome it. Like, it just may be too strong.

1340
01:03:04,526 --> 01:03:06,926
Speaker 3: But if I keep going, I can find something. And

1341
01:03:07,386 --> 01:03:10,166
Speaker 3: I've seen some research talking about, you know, it takes

1342
01:03:10,246 --> 01:03:13,566
Speaker 3: a while to build a connection or a friendship. And

1343
01:03:13,826 --> 01:03:15,506
Speaker 3: the thing that I've done so many times in my

1344
01:03:15,546 --> 01:03:18,626
Speaker 3: life is show up someplace once and be like, no,

1345
01:03:18,786 --> 01:03:22,026
Speaker 3: not my people because nothing happened. Right. And I just

1346
01:03:22,066 --> 01:03:24,326
Speaker 3: know for myself that the first time I show up,

1347
01:03:24,386 --> 01:03:28,286
Speaker 3: my defenses are just, they're unconscious and they're high enough

1348
01:03:28,366 --> 01:03:31,036
Speaker 3: that I'm either going to think I don't like these

1349
01:03:31,116 --> 01:03:33,236
Speaker 3: people or they don't like me. One of those two

1350
01:03:33,296 --> 01:03:35,536
Speaker 3: things is going to be going on in my brain.

1351
01:03:36,116 --> 01:03:37,996
Speaker 3: And I just kind of have to ignore it and go, well,

1352
01:03:38,056 --> 01:03:41,096
Speaker 3: try again. Try a few times. If this seems like

1353
01:03:41,136 --> 01:03:44,096
Speaker 3: it's a place that might offer the kind of community

1354
01:03:44,176 --> 01:03:46,816
Speaker 3: I want, I may have to venture into the space

1355
01:03:47,356 --> 01:03:50,096
Speaker 3: multiple times. And then sooner or later, I find all

1356
01:03:50,116 --> 01:03:54,066
Speaker 3: of a sudden my walls start dropping. And so that's

1357
01:03:54,126 --> 01:03:56,386
Speaker 3: a way of doing it even if you can't quite

1358
01:03:56,486 --> 01:03:59,146
Speaker 3: overcome that. you know, what you're saying, like the first

1359
01:03:59,186 --> 01:04:01,586
Speaker 3: time I'm there, all I can do is play with

1360
01:04:01,646 --> 01:04:03,026
Speaker 3: a cat because I feel so shy.

1361
01:04:03,286 --> 01:04:05,546
Speaker 1: I like your suggestion there. You can also look at

1362
01:04:05,586 --> 01:04:08,226
Speaker 1: it from the other people's perspective, right? Like, why didn't

1363
01:04:08,276 --> 01:04:10,236
Speaker 1: they connect with me? It might not be because, you know,

1364
01:04:10,316 --> 01:04:12,156
Speaker 1: you're a loser and unconnectable. It might have been you

1365
01:04:12,176 --> 01:04:13,936
Speaker 1: were playing with the cat the whole, you know? So

1366
01:04:13,976 --> 01:04:16,656
Speaker 1: it's like, I think if you frame it more like,

1367
01:04:16,876 --> 01:04:19,656
Speaker 1: I'm going to help the loneliest person at the party,

1368
01:04:19,676 --> 01:04:22,516
Speaker 1: that's super helpful. I mean, I've seen this on one-on-one,

1369
01:04:22,576 --> 01:04:25,176
Speaker 1: you know, if you're feeling anxious, socially anxious, and a

1370
01:04:25,196 --> 01:04:28,346
Speaker 1: party's not the right scene, fine. Look through your phone

1371
01:04:28,386 --> 01:04:30,246
Speaker 1: or your email list and say, I'm going to text

1372
01:04:30,286 --> 01:04:32,126
Speaker 1: or email the person in this list that I think

1373
01:04:32,166 --> 01:04:34,386
Speaker 1: might be the loneliest. And I'm just going to check in.

1374
01:04:34,886 --> 01:04:37,086
Speaker 1: And you'd be surprised how much good work that does.

1375
01:04:37,926 --> 01:04:42,606
Speaker 3: This is my final question. To what extent does virtual connection,

1376
01:04:42,906 --> 01:04:47,046
Speaker 3: can it be a replacement for in-person connection? Is it 50%

1377
01:04:47,046 --> 01:04:50,356
Speaker 3: as good, 75% as good? Am I asking the wrong question?

1378
01:04:50,376 --> 01:04:52,456
Speaker 1: It's a good question. And the answer is sort of

1379
01:04:52,496 --> 01:04:53,596
Speaker 1: it depends on how you do it.

1380
01:04:54,196 --> 01:04:54,396
Speaker 3: Right?

1381
01:04:54,476 --> 01:04:56,686
Speaker 1: You know, you and I are talking virtually over our,

1382
01:04:56,786 --> 01:04:58,886
Speaker 1: you know, favorite podcast app and it feels pretty good.

1383
01:04:58,906 --> 01:05:00,146
Speaker 1: Like we're having this nice connection.

1384
01:05:00,186 --> 01:05:00,666
Speaker 3: I see you.

1385
01:05:01,126 --> 01:05:03,886
Speaker 1: And that's in part because it's in real time, right?

1386
01:05:03,906 --> 01:05:06,246
Speaker 1: We're talking using the same things as primates that we

1387
01:05:06,426 --> 01:05:08,736
Speaker 1: were built over evolution to do, right? We're talking in

1388
01:05:08,776 --> 01:05:11,436
Speaker 1: real time with one another. I think that virtual connection

1389
01:05:11,496 --> 01:05:14,816
Speaker 1: works less well if you're not doing it in real time. Like,

1390
01:05:15,076 --> 01:05:17,036
Speaker 1: you know, a text thread where you're texting a friend,

1391
01:05:17,216 --> 01:05:18,896
Speaker 1: it just kind of doesn't jive with the way our

1392
01:05:18,936 --> 01:05:21,086
Speaker 1: psychology is used to it. But The cool thing is

1393
01:05:21,126 --> 01:05:22,966
Speaker 1: we have lots of tools now that allow us to

1394
01:05:23,026 --> 01:05:24,926
Speaker 1: do that from like FaceTime and Zoom where you can

1395
01:05:24,966 --> 01:05:28,236
Speaker 1: see each other or just like the old school phone, right?

1396
01:05:28,296 --> 01:05:30,496
Speaker 1: We have these smartphones that are our cameras and our

1397
01:05:30,516 --> 01:05:32,296
Speaker 1: alarm clocks and all these things. And we forget like

1398
01:05:32,736 --> 01:05:34,776
Speaker 1: you could just use it as a phone. And we

1399
01:05:34,816 --> 01:05:37,516
Speaker 1: know the phone is pretty good for social connection. It

1400
01:05:37,536 --> 01:05:39,556
Speaker 1: was like really all we had for a very long time.

1401
01:05:39,916 --> 01:05:44,056
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And I think the thing that sometimes people

1402
01:05:44,116 --> 01:05:45,896
Speaker 3: will do, and I know I've been guilty of this,

1403
01:05:45,956 --> 01:05:49,046
Speaker 3: is like, well, in-person connection is what's really important. So

1404
01:05:49,126 --> 01:05:50,186
Speaker 3: I won't do Zoom.

1405
01:05:50,526 --> 01:05:50,686
Speaker 1: Right.

1406
01:05:50,946 --> 01:05:54,736
Speaker 3: Thinking it's somehow inferior, but it's still way, way, way

1407
01:05:54,796 --> 01:05:55,576
Speaker 3: better than nothing.

1408
01:05:55,856 --> 01:05:57,656
Speaker 1: And I think this for me was, you know, a

1409
01:05:57,716 --> 01:05:59,476
Speaker 1: gift of the pandemic. You know, I could talk about

1410
01:05:59,796 --> 01:06:02,836
Speaker 1: silver linings and blessings and really awful situations was that,

1411
01:06:02,856 --> 01:06:04,926
Speaker 1: you know, I think it got a lot of us to,

1412
01:06:04,966 --> 01:06:07,786
Speaker 1: you know, do these Zoom hangouts with the friends or

1413
01:06:07,826 --> 01:06:10,986
Speaker 1: Zoom movie or game nights and Zoom yoga classes. I

1414
01:06:11,006 --> 01:06:13,116
Speaker 1: was doing Zoom yoga with friends. And it made me

1415
01:06:13,156 --> 01:06:15,816
Speaker 1: realize like, wait, this is pretty good. You know, there

1416
01:06:15,836 --> 01:06:17,836
Speaker 1: are people that live far away that I won't see

1417
01:06:17,876 --> 01:06:20,336
Speaker 1: in person for a while, but connecting with them over

1418
01:06:20,376 --> 01:06:22,636
Speaker 1: Zoom was great. And some of those, you know, Zoom

1419
01:06:23,236 --> 01:06:26,036
Speaker 1: things I was doing, I'm still doing with those friends.

1420
01:06:26,296 --> 01:06:28,896
Speaker 1: My college roommates are scattered all across the country and

1421
01:06:28,936 --> 01:06:31,246
Speaker 1: we still do these like once a month kind of,

1422
01:06:31,296 --> 01:06:33,726
Speaker 1: you know, spa night hangouts over Zoom because we realize

1423
01:06:33,766 --> 01:06:35,706
Speaker 1: like it's better to see them that way than not

1424
01:06:35,726 --> 01:06:38,046
Speaker 1: at all. So I think, you know, listen to those lessons.

1425
01:06:38,086 --> 01:06:38,926
Speaker 1: They can be powerful.

1426
01:06:39,716 --> 01:06:41,776
Speaker 3: Well, Laurie, thank you so much for coming on. It

1427
01:06:41,816 --> 01:06:45,836
Speaker 3: has been such an enjoyable conversation, and I'm so grateful

1428
01:06:45,876 --> 01:06:47,256
Speaker 3: that you had time to join us today.

1429
01:06:47,396 --> 01:06:48,586
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me on the show.