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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. For thousands of years,

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Speaker 1: people have grieved when loss occurs, though we don't see

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Speaker 1: everyone that grieves, though we don't see those individuals who

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Speaker 1: quietly go home to an empty chair. Perhaps there have

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Speaker 1: been those times over history where people would publicly display

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Speaker 1: their grief and it involved a particular type of clothing

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Speaker 1: that I've always been fascinated by the idea of sackcloth.

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Speaker 1: And most of the time when you hear the term sackcloth,

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Speaker 1: it's married up with the word ashes, and for some

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Speaker 1: it's it's a sign of repentance. For others it is

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Speaker 1: just out and out grief, the wailing and gnashing of

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Speaker 1: teeth many times. But today we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: a type of sackcloth, a type of sackcloth otherwise known

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Speaker 1: as burlap, and we're going to talk about bodies that

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Speaker 1: have been discovered on Long Island in New York wrapped

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Speaker 1: in burlap, and most importantly, an individual that may very

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Speaker 1: well be responsible for the Gilgo Beach murders. I'm Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body Backs.

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Speaker 2: For more than a decade, a string of murders linked

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Speaker 2: to bodies found on Gilgo Beach when unsolved. At least

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Speaker 2: aven sets of human remains were found in a relatively

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Speaker 2: small area. At least four sets of remains have been

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Speaker 2: linked to the same killer. These bodies were found within

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Speaker 2: fifty feet of each other. The first set of remains

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Speaker 2: discovered on the isolated waterfront belonged to Melissa Bartholomy twenty four.

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Speaker 2: Two days later, the remains of three additional victims, Marine

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Speaker 2: Brainerd Barnes, Amber Costello and Megan Waterman were recovered. The

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Speaker 2: victims were wrapped in burlap. All four women worked as escorts.

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Speaker 2: The next year, more remains were found, including a toddler

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Speaker 2: and her mother. Later that year, four more sets of

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Speaker 2: remains were found, bringing the total to eleven. But are

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Speaker 2: there more?

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Speaker 1: Sometimes grief hangs over a home like a black cloud,

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Speaker 1: and I think, for over a decade now, Dave Mack, grief, fear, anxiety,

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Speaker 1: worry has over this area of Long Island known as

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Speaker 1: Gilgo Beach, a place that I'm sure many families for

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Speaker 1: years and years went and celebrated good times with those

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Speaker 1: that they love. But over the last decade or so,

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Speaker 1: it has been a place of pure and complete horror.

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Speaker 3: From the moment we heard the story, from the moment

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Speaker 3: it broke yes, it has been a horror show. We've

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Speaker 3: got bodies, We've got a long time in between the

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Speaker 3: time the bodies were found and where we actually have

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Speaker 3: some type of a resolution of sorts. It started with

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Speaker 3: one woman and a twenty three minute long phone call

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Speaker 3: to nine to onein one, Shannon Gilbert. She made a

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Speaker 3: call at five o'clock in the morning from this area

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Speaker 3: that is beautiful homes, coastal area, and she's afraid for

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Speaker 3: her life. It was Shannon Gilbert and the twenty three

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Speaker 3: minute long call to nine one one, and then the

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Speaker 3: subsequent search for her that led to uncovering bodies in

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Speaker 3: this one area. And we're not even sure if Shannon

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Speaker 3: Gilbert is actually part of what we're talking about today,

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Speaker 3: but that's where it all began. Where they found bodies

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Speaker 3: while they were looking for her. And what do you

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Speaker 3: do as an investigator when we're looking for a particular

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Speaker 3: person and you come up on bones, where do you

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Speaker 3: begin looking?

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Speaker 4: How do you even begin?

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Speaker 3: Because hey, these bones can't belong to the woman we're

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Speaker 3: looking for.

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Speaker 1: She just left right, you know, this first set, I

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Speaker 1: think that we're found back in December of twenty ten early,

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Speaker 1: you know, were initially found by a police officer that

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Speaker 1: was out with a dog and they were conducting a

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Speaker 1: training exercise. And you know, if you've never seen a

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Speaker 1: dog's that the police have working in the area, when

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Speaker 1: they get on a scent and they suddenly hit on something,

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Speaker 1: it's something to see. And you know, you think about

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Speaker 1: from an investigative standpoint, you think about when you have

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Speaker 1: a single body, you think, okay, well, maybe someone was

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Speaker 1: killed and deposited here and the killer left and maybe

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Speaker 1: or maybe not, they had knowledge of the area. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it was a tourist that was familiar with the area

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Speaker 1: and they're from out of state. But here's here's the

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Speaker 1: problem that occurred. On December the eleventh of twenty ten,

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Speaker 1: day RT December thirteenth, twenty ten, three others are found,

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Speaker 1: and as an investigator, I can't even imagine the chill

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Speaker 1: that ran up the spine of these individuals, these law

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Speaker 1: enforcement investigators, because they knew then that this picture was

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Speaker 1: so much bigger than that one single body that they

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Speaker 1: had found at that moment.

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Speaker 3: And that's why I should have been crystal clear on

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Speaker 3: Shannon Gilbert and the phone call that was made on

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Speaker 3: May first of twenty ten, her phone call that happened

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Speaker 3: in you know, late spring May of twenty ten, where

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Speaker 3: they did search for her and didn't find her. She

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Speaker 3: was missing, one of the missing and they were when

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Speaker 3: they found that first the first bones they thought were

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Speaker 3: finding Shannon Gilbert and that actually and that's what I

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Speaker 3: was kind of wondering. If you think you find you know,

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Speaker 3: you're an investigator in their bones. So I'm assuming you're

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Speaker 3: going to get the call, Joe. You go out there

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Speaker 3: and they say, yeah, we think it's probably this girl

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Speaker 3: that went missing in May, and you look at the bones.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell how long bones have been in a

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Speaker 3: place and whether they belong to the same person or not,

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Speaker 3: or if they in this case you've got multiple people

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Speaker 3: being found.

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Speaker 1: Right, you can. And I think a lot of this

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Speaker 1: goes to, well, let's look at it from a broader perspective,

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Speaker 1: from what's referred to as geographic profiling, where you have

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Speaker 1: people that work in profiling their profiling crimes. You remember,

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Speaker 1: with profiling, people always wonder, you know, what's the difference

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Speaker 1: between profiling and forensic psychology. Well, forensic psychology most of

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Speaker 1: the time you're dealing them with a known you're assessing

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Speaker 1: someone that is currently incarcerated, for instance. But with profiling,

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Speaker 1: you are trying to conjure up an image or a

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Speaker 1: behavioral pattern relative to an individual that is unknown that

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Speaker 1: police officers can use in the course of their investigation

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Speaker 1: try to track person down. And so one element of

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Speaker 1: that is geographic profiling. And when you're looking at a

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Speaker 1: scene and you've got these bodies that are essentially, you know,

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Speaker 1: within a very short distance of one another, that are

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Speaker 1: deposited in this particular area, suddenly the point on on

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Speaker 1: that horizon becomes very sharp and in focus as it

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Speaker 1: applies to the geography, because you've got immediately, you've got

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Speaker 1: an individual that obviously feels comfortable with the environment and

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Speaker 1: has a certain familiarity with it, feels as though they

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Speaker 1: won't be seen or found in this environment. It's almost like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the perfect camouflage of in dwelling a location

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Speaker 1: with never being caught in. And here's the other thing.

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Speaker 1: These bodies, as it turns out, are not It's not

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Speaker 1: like you had a mass killing and all of these

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Speaker 1: individuals were deposited at the same time. Dave, You've got

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Speaker 1: an individual that is apparently taking a life. They're taking

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Speaker 1: the time to prep the body by wrapping it in burlap,

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Speaker 1: securing the body. We do know from the DA that

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Speaker 1: these bodies were tied around the neck, tied around the midsection,

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Speaker 1: maybe tied around the ankles, with something external to them.

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Speaker 1: And this was not just everyday burlap. You know, I

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Speaker 1: mentioned burlap. This is camouflage burlap. So when you're looking

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Speaker 1: at your investigation and attempting to profile, you know, we've

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Speaker 1: got several elements here at work. We've got geography, you're

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Speaker 1: familiar with a particular area. Who in the world would

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Speaker 1: use camouflage burlap? Well, many times that's something that's associated

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Speaker 1: with hunters, right, So did it come from there or

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Speaker 1: did it come from a job site? Did somebody just

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Speaker 1: like camouflage pur lap and they use that particular type

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Speaker 1: of burlap, that pattern for instance. So you've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff to draw on. And then when you

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Speaker 1: look at the graves, and these were graves that these

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Speaker 1: bodies had been placed in, you begin to think, well, well,

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Speaker 1: what time of day could you do this and get

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Speaker 1: away with it? Well, it would seem that if you're

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Speaker 1: going to dig a grave and you're immediately adjacent to

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Speaker 1: Gilgo Beach. In the broad daylight, you're going to draw

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Speaker 1: attention to yourself. Your vehicle is going to have to

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Speaker 1: be parked very close to this location. So you're going

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Speaker 1: to need cover in order to do this, the cover

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Speaker 1: of darkness. And are you going to show up with

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Speaker 1: the right tools, you know, once you get out there,

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Speaker 1: are you know, are you going to have everything that

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Speaker 1: you need, everything at your disposal in order to facilitate this.

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Speaker 1: You know, what's very important I think here, Dave, is

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Speaker 1: that burlapp itself as as a cloth. It's generally it's

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Speaker 1: made out of what's referred to as a ute plant.

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Speaker 1: It's also made out of a couple of other plants

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Speaker 1: as well, but ut is probably the most and that's

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Speaker 1: j u te I think, if I'm not mistaken, is

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Speaker 1: generally the most common. It's been used for centuries. But

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Speaker 1: it's very resilient. It's kind of like hemp to a

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Speaker 1: certain degree. It's a vegetable fabric. It is pretty resilient.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can use it on building sites to

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Speaker 1: create barriers with and all those sorts of things, and

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Speaker 1: what you have here. If you have bodies that are

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Speaker 1: wrapped in in this burl app you have containment, don't you.

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Speaker 1: So that's the beauty of this. When a body is

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Speaker 1: buried and it's you know, obviously the idea was to

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Speaker 1: keep the body out of sight. By burying it, you're

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Speaker 1: also containing the body. So you essentially, and I use

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Speaker 1: this term pretty frequently on body bags, you cocoon the

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Speaker 1: body in a particular way. And so when you're cocooning

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Speaker 1: the body, that means that all of these elements are

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Speaker 1: going to remain relatively intact. Now does that mean that

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Speaker 1: small animals couldn't breach the exterior. No, not, and they

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Speaker 1: can create holes. You've got weathering. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: weathering that goes on at the beach. It's a harsh environment.

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Speaker 1: You know, you've got the salt air that's right there.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you've had some flooding if the water has breached

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Speaker 1: the road at some point in time and made it

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Speaker 1: over to the graze, but it hasn't. It apparently didn't

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Speaker 1: make it over to that point in order to wash

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Speaker 1: them away. So you had containment in this particular set

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Speaker 1: of circumstances. So that's very very important. So I think

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Speaker 1: that when we look at the wrapping, we look at

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Speaker 1: the burials. Some of the things that you can take

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Speaker 1: away from this is that you've got a very particular

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Speaker 1: type of fabric that was used, a very particular type

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Speaker 1: of binding perhaps and knots. That's very important as well.

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Speaker 1: Who tied the knots? Does it appear to be the

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Speaker 1: same person, and what level of skill do they have

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Speaker 1: with tying knots? And then in the broader pace, make

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Speaker 1: sure you have to ask yourself this question, what was

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Speaker 1: the rationale of the killer for burying these bodies in

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Speaker 1: this particular spot. You remember that grief, that mourning. There

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Speaker 1: are families that have been mourning for some time. And

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Speaker 1: one thing I have found out as a death investigator

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Speaker 1: over the years is that families don't necessarily want to

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Speaker 1: know why. Their big question is what they want to know?

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Speaker 1: What happened to my baby? And many times, in particular

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Speaker 1: cases like this, this can be a rather big ask.

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Speaker 1: And here's the reason why, because after bodies are found

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Speaker 1: that have been buried for a period of time, they

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Speaker 1: begin to break down. In many times, our answers lie

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Speaker 1: there in the soft tissue. It would appear that in

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Speaker 1: these cases there's very little soft tissue remaining, Dave.

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Speaker 3: When you start looking at bones as you are in

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Speaker 3: this particular case, and they're from multiple people, and you

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Speaker 3: only know when you found them, you don't know when

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Speaker 3: they were deposited there, how do you start breaking it

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Speaker 3: down researching? Because they're each individual crimes, they're not all

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Speaker 3: bundled together. They each took place at a different time

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Speaker 3: but ended up within feet of one another. How do

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Speaker 3: you start when you've got it like this?

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Speaker 1: That's a tough thing, isn't it. And And one of

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Speaker 1: the big questions that you're asked when you're out on

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Speaker 1: a scene like the ones at at Gilga Beach is

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Speaker 1: these skeletal remains. Remember I talked about containment with burlap

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Speaker 1: and all these sorts of things. One of the big

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Speaker 1: questions that is asked is even though I've got a singular,

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Speaker 1: standalone grave, and even though it would appear that they

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Speaker 1: have been wrapped in in burlap singularly, you still have

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Speaker 1: to ask this question with skeletal remains, do I have

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Speaker 1: commingle remains? David? So you know, is there the off

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Speaker 1: chance that you could have had two people that were

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Speaker 1: initially in a wrapping and now through the process of decomposition.

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Speaker 1: You know, the soft tissue is gone, so there's nothing

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Speaker 1: really whole. The sculpture remains in place, and as as

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Speaker 1: the earth moves, and it does move. Uh, this is

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Speaker 1: something that's disturbation where the soil will actually shift over

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Speaker 1: a period of time and it's a very slow process

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Speaker 1: and things can move about as a result of this.

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Speaker 1: If you have two bodies and a hole, then those

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Speaker 1: remains become commingled and so you might wind up with

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Speaker 1: I don't know. You think that you've got all of

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Speaker 1: the elements of a hand, which you know it's got

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Speaker 1: very tiny bones, but suddenly now you're finding you've got

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Speaker 1: two right hands, or you've got two left hands. And

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Speaker 1: this has happened in the past. So they would have

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Speaker 1: to have been very very careful on each one of

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Speaker 1: these grave sites that they're dealing with to make sure

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Speaker 1: that that what their eyes are telling them, what their

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Speaker 1: mind is telling them at that moment time. They have

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Speaker 1: to go back and confirm that that is the case,

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Speaker 1: because you don't want to leave that defect in the

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Speaker 1: ground without searching it from stem to stern. So it

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Speaker 1: would not have simply have been a team from the

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Speaker 1: local police department or even merely state police. You would

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Speaker 1: have had to have called in a forensic anthropologist out there,

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Speaker 1: and I would imagine Dave that there when the flag

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Speaker 1: went up on this and they knew that they were

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Speaker 1: dealing with not just one, not just two, but you

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Speaker 1: had multiple burials that were out there. They reached out

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Speaker 1: to a forensic anthropologist who when they arrive at the scene,

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Speaker 1: they're going to in a way, just from a physical

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Speaker 1: evidence standpoint when you're talking about recovery of skeletal remains,

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Speaker 1: they're going to take charge of things because there is

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Speaker 1: a very specific way in which you have to go

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Speaker 1: about this because.

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Speaker 3: Everything I'm guessing, isn't it going to look like an

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Speaker 3: archaeological Yeah, every where you step bodies everywhere. You don't

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Speaker 3: know if you've even got a spot to step over here,

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Speaker 3: because you know you've found a burlap bag over here

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Speaker 3: that had body parts, you know there's another one. What

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Speaker 3: about animals, Joe, And what about the water table coming up?

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Speaker 3: You're on an island, right, is that going to scatter

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Speaker 3: even more?

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Speaker 1: It could? And that's what I was wondering. You know

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Speaker 1: here in this you know it's not an aquatic environment,

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Speaker 1: but you're immediately adjacent, let's face it to the largest

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Speaker 1: largest bodies of water on the earth in the Atlantic Ocean,

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Speaker 1: and you're talking about feet. It can be measured in

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Speaker 1: feet the distance from these graves to the shore. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so that's certainly something to be taken into consideration. Is

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Speaker 1: there any indication that anything may have floated away or

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Speaker 1: does it appear that it was all contained in one

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Speaker 1: location and it's not, And then it's not just the

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Speaker 1: skelet remain themselves that are left behind. Dave, that bag,

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Speaker 1: that bag, which would be in probably not the best shape,

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Speaker 1: has to be handled very, very gingerly. I did an

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Speaker 1: exhammation one time on a body that involved a Civil

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Speaker 1: War soldier, and I can on another episode I'll go

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Speaker 1: into a greater detail about the case. But we had

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Speaker 1: to take very close care with that case because there

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Speaker 1: were remnants of clothing that were still there all these

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Speaker 1: years later, buttons and those sorts of things and so.

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Speaker 1: But with these bags, they act as a containment shield

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Speaker 1: within this environment. But here's the trick. If that bag

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Speaker 1: there's a difference between weathering, there's a physical difference. When

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Speaker 1: you're looking from an evidentiary standpoint, there's a big difference

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Speaker 1: between the weathering of a bag and the leading edges

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Speaker 1: of it where they might get frayed. You know how,

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Speaker 1: if you have something that's just like you know, lean

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Speaker 1: over a fence, perhaps a piece of cloth, and you

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Speaker 1: just leave it there for a protracted period of time,

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Speaker 1: it'll begin to kind of shred and you'll see little

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Speaker 1: threads hanging down. There's a big difference between that, which

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Speaker 1: is a weather event and aware event, as opposed to

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Speaker 1: let's say that the perpetrator that wrapped these bodies up,

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Speaker 1: they use the sharp instrument dave to cut through a

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Speaker 1: length of burl ap that would facilitate wrap in the body. Well,

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Speaker 1: that cutting itself is tool mark evidence. So you have

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Speaker 1: to be very very careful in this environment when you're

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Speaker 1: recovering even that cloth bag, that burlap back, that's going

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Speaker 1: to be essential. And then to contain all of those

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Speaker 1: bones therein any kind of you know how you talked

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Speaker 1: about it's like an archaeological dig, and you're right on

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Speaker 1: the money with that. It is, so imagine this. You've

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Speaker 1: got a handheld tool, you're kind of manipulating soil so

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Speaker 1: you can get down into that area where the body

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Speaker 1: is seeded in there, and you're careless with a tool

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Speaker 1: that you have in your hand, you strike a bit

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Speaker 1: of bone. Well, if the body has been dismembered, then

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Speaker 1: you've just added a tool mark to the bone, okay.

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Speaker 1: And you don't know that before you get the body

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Speaker 1: out of the grave. You don't know if someone has

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Speaker 1: attempted to dismember or you don't know if a sharp

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Speaker 1: instruments perhaps have been used to bring about the death.

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Speaker 1: And that's the other thing with these cases. They have

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Speaker 1: ruled the cause of death on these deaths as homicidal violence.

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Speaker 1: You know what that says when they speak that and they.

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Speaker 4: Write that crawl in the bag and got his lead.

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Speaker 4: No they didn't, but yet, Yeah, you're absolutely right. I

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Speaker 4: guess that's an interesting way to put it. They've got

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Speaker 4: nothing else intellectually to hang their hat on at that

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Speaker 4: moment in time. So any bit of information that you

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Speaker 4: recover from the site with these bodies and the deposition

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Speaker 4: of them is going to be critical, you know, in

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Speaker 4: your assessment when you do finally get these bodies back

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Speaker 4: back to the morgue, and each one when when they

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Speaker 4: are removed and that excavation has finally you know, come

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Speaker 4: to a conclusion, just so people know what will happen

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Speaker 4: is the body, the bodies, those skeletal remains will go

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Speaker 4: to one of two places. Either they will go to

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Speaker 4: the medical examiner's office, which they probably did, or they

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Speaker 4: will go to say, for instance, an anthropology lab, like

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Speaker 4: there's a fantastic one as you can imagine at the Smithsonian.

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Speaker 4: But let's just say they go to the to the

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Speaker 4: medical examiner's office. Well, you have to account for all

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Speaker 4: of the bones contained in the human body. And once

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Speaker 4: you go through your count and your anatomical assessment of

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Speaker 4: these bones, what we normally do is take the autopsy

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Speaker 4: table that we normally do the exams on and we

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Speaker 4: lay them out on that surface in their anatomical anatomical

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Speaker 4: orientation so that we can appreciate all of them and

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Speaker 4: also do a final count on the body.

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Speaker 3: You can actually see the skeletonized body. You can actually

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Speaker 3: see it as the person it was, right.

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Speaker 1: And you know when we think about that, you know

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Speaker 1: the the body, the body has two hundred and six bones. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so that's it's a it's quite the undertaking. That's why

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Speaker 1: it's so important when you're at the scene that you

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Speaker 1: take such great care because every bone could come into play.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. Let's say that you've got

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Speaker 1: an individual that has been stabbed, but you no longer

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Speaker 1: have hemorrhage because there's no soft tissue to appreciate the

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Speaker 1: only thing you're left with. Let's just say that we're

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Speaker 1: stabbed in the chest, all right, Then the edge of

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Speaker 1: that blade is going to go through or pass over

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Speaker 1: a rib cage perhaps or one of the elements of

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Speaker 1: the of the ribs, and it might notch it out. Well,

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Speaker 1: that notch is very significant there, because you can appreciate

364
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Speaker 1: that and you can identify that as a tool mark.

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Speaker 1: Or you consider one of the most delicate bones in

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Speaker 1: the human body, which we've all heard of, we've even

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Speaker 1: talked about it on body bags, and that's the hyoid bone. Well,

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Speaker 1: it sits way up in the neck and it's not

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Speaker 1: articulated with any other bone. And if you can find

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Speaker 1: the hyoid bone, then that may give you an indication

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Speaker 1: that you might be dealing with a manual strangulation. Because

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Speaker 1: if you've got somebody that has been choked out, say

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Speaker 1: manually they're throttled, or they've used a sea clamp, that

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Speaker 1: is the perpetrator. That bone many times will snap. I

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Speaker 1: think over the course of my career, I've only seen

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Speaker 1: one case where a hyoid bone was fractured that was

377
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Speaker 1: not related to homicidal violence, and that was a yeah,

378
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Speaker 1: And that was a guy that was in an old pontiac,

379
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Speaker 1: an old pontiac sa DAN that went over the side

380
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Speaker 1: of it tent or spur off of it over the

381
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Speaker 1: guardrail and fell like three stories. He was non belted.

382
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Speaker 1: And when I say old pontiac, it was like a

383
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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight in his throat. The leading edge of

384
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Speaker 1: his throat actually struck the steering wheel on impact, it

385
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Speaker 1: went nose down and his highwood was fractured. And so

386
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Speaker 1: most of the time that's associated with homicidal trauma, but

387
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Speaker 1: you have to have it in order to verify that

388
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 1: other than that. And so how does the medical examiner

389
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Speaker 1: arrive at that conclusion. I think that that's important because

390
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Speaker 1: the supposition on the part of the medical examiner is that, Okay,

391
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Speaker 1: people don't normally wind up wrapped in burlap and buried

392
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Speaker 1: in a hole and there not be some kind of

393
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Speaker 1: homicidal event that's taken place, and that's what they're looking at.

394
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Speaker 3: Now, Joe. When you've got a body in a burlap bag,

395
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Speaker 3: as the body dissolves, and I don't know a better

396
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 3: term to put it, but when we talk about there's

397
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Speaker 3: a skeletonized, that's all we've got is a skeleton. We've

398
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Speaker 3: got the bones. Isn't there anything left in the burr

399
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 3: lap or in the ground beneath from where the body

400
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: has dissolved. They're in the Is there not an outline?

401
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 3: Is there not? Yeah? Yeah? There was? Yea.

402
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a good point, Dave. And you know, many

403
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: times you'll get this kind of greasy black staining that

404
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: takes place and over a period of time, dependent upon

405
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: how long the body has been. You know, it's not

406
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: like the bodies in a casket. The body is the

407
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: only thing separating the body from the earth is essentially

408
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 1: this any clothing they might have, and then on top

409
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: of that the burlap, that's the only thing that's protecting

410
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 1: the body. And so as the body begins to break

411
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: down and decomposition is taking place, then you'll get this

412
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: kind of greasy stain that you'll find only surfaces, and

413
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: it's generally black, and over a period of time that'll

414
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: kind of that'll kind of vanish away, and that element,

415
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: those soft tissue elements kind of fade away over period

416
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: of time. But you know what's very resilient that you

417
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: can find in a location like this that is not

418
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: a skeletal remain dave human hair, And in this particular case,

419
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 1: that might be what unlocks the puzzle. I woke up

420
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: the morning of July fourteenth, just having my coffee with

421
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: my wife as I normally do, and just hanging out

422
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 1: and chatting, and then all of a sudden, my newsfeed

423
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: lit up with the news of an arrest in the

424
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: gilgil four case. And I you know, I've known people

425
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: that have been involved with this case, you know, certainly

426
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: in the media, have talked to them for years now

427
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: and seeing them at crime and I am just I'm

428
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: just shocked that they have affected an a risk.

429
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 3: The Gilgo Beach serial killer had a couple of different

430
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 3: names because this story was so unsolved for so long,

431
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 3: the Long Island serial Killer or Lisk, the Manerville Butcher,

432
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 3: the Craigslist ripper, and it all comes down to the

433
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: Gilgo Beach bodies. The city of Gilgo Beach actually in

434
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: twenty twenty started a website and gave out a little

435
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: bit more information to the public, trying to stir up

436
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 3: interest so somebody would come forward, because you know, somebody

437
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 3: knows something. There were a number of little things that

438
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 3: led to that break in the case. You know, they

439
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 3: had some information early on that we weren't necessarily privy to.

440
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 3: They had the description of a man who was last

441
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 3: seen with one of the missing girls, who was later identified.

442
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 3: The guy that they arrested was a large man. He's

443
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 3: six foot seven, Rex Harriman. He lives in Massapequa, Long

444
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: Island and works in Manhattan. Owns an architecture firm and

445
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 3: has worked with some pretty big companies. Over the last

446
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: couple of days, we've had people coming out saying, well, hey,

447
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 3: that place was creepy, the house was run down for

448
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 3: the neighborhood. We didn't let our kids go there on Halloween.

449
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 3: We are hearing many, many different things about the suspect

450
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 3: in this case. He has been arrested. He has been

451
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 3: charged with three of the murders. The number of bodies

452
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 3: of the number of skeletal remains is somewhere between ten

453
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 3: and eighteen. That's the suspected range of the number of

454
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 3: people that are dead. Between ten and eighteen, not necessarily

455
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 3: knowing they all are attributed to him, because there could

456
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 3: be sadly as it is, somebody else involved, there could

457
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 3: be a lot more than we don't know yet. You

458
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 3: and I were talking about this before we began. There

459
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 3: are so many things we don't know, because this case

460
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 3: involves everything from forensic DNA, genetic genealogy, and physical evidence

461
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 3: on the ground that over the next few weeks we're

462
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: going to find out more and more evidence that comes out.

463
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: I got to hang on, I got to tell you

464
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: something right here, and and you know this is going

465
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: to sound insane, I know, continuing considering that that this

466
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: is an informational podcast, right, can I just tell you

467
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: I'm glad we don't know because that that tells me.

468
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: That tells me after covering so many of these cases

469
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: over the years. That tells me that law enforcement did

470
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: their damn job. They kept their mouth shut. How cool

471
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: is that that they were able to just keep this

472
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: information and they had it turns out there was a

473
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: lot of infighting that had happened early on. I'd heard,

474
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: you know, you hear all kinds of things, But it

475
00:31:54,840 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: seems like this DA and UH, these investigators that are

476
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: currently working in this case. Really got this thing up

477
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: on rails and started to sing moving down the track,

478
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: and boy, once it started it went quick. Man.

479
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 3: Well think about it.

480
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 4: You know.

481
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 3: Rex Harriman is fifty nine years old. He's a family man,

482
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: father of two grown adult children, and he of course

483
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 3: has denied the allegations. Want to make sure we say that,

484
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 3: so I mentioned the press conference in twenty twenty. When

485
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 3: they set up the Giligo News, it was a website

486
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 3: dedicated to this case and dedicated to getting information out.

487
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 3: But it wasn't until they actually put a task force together,

488
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 3: and that was in the spring of two, at twenty

489
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: twenty two, and Joe, within six weeks they had a name.

490
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 3: These guys came in and they just ripped the lid

491
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 3: off this. And when I saw hair, pizza box and

492
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: stuff like that listed as potential ways they broke it,

493
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 3: all I could think of was, Joe Scott Morgan has

494
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 3: got to tell us, how does your wife's hair, yea

495
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 3: and a pizza box come into play? And burner phone?

496
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is going to be something I think

497
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: that probably I don't want to get too far over

498
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: into name's territory here, however, from a legal standpoint, I

499
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: think that this is something that the defense, his defense

500
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: will try to exploit the fact that his wife's hair

501
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: was found in here. And I know that sounds nuts,

502
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: but you know, they'll do anything that they can to

503
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: try to take the heat off of their client. But

504
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: you have to consider he's domiciled with his wife. You

505
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: talked about this house, and I took a look at

506
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: this house, and you know, this guy's an architect. Oh

507
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: my god, Yeah, it looks like one of these places

508
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: they need to tear it down and start over. I mean,

509
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,479
Speaker 1: it is in bad shape. He had apparently bought it

510
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: from his mom at a very low price many years ago,

511
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: particularly by Long Island standards, and they've just been living

512
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: in it, you know, he and his family over a

513
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: period of time. And look, I mean, you can't judge

514
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: me in by the conditioned exterior of his house. Maybe

515
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: works a lot, Maybe it doesn't make as much money

516
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: as you might think an architect works. It makes I

517
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: have no idea, but the house was in this pair

518
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: and it it kind of you kind of begin to

519
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: understand why, you know, kids might not want to go

520
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: there at trick or treat. You know, if you're a parent,

521
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: you're staying on the sidewalk. You might not necessarily want

522
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: them to go up to the door. But now you've

523
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:14,919
Speaker 1: got a lot of stories that are coming out about

524
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,919
Speaker 1: his behavior and all these sorts of things. But what's

525
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: more important here is that hair. And when you have

526
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: someone two individuals that are domiciled together like this, you

527
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 1: have to ask the question, if you find this hair

528
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: adjacent to one of these poor women that was killed

529
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: and then wrapped in burlap transported I guess to this

530
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: specific location. I don't know if there's any ocasion that

531
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: were killed at that location, buried, the hole was dug

532
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 1: and their body was implanted in. How did the wife's

533
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: hair wind up with them? And what you know what

534
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: initially kind of they couldn't. The hair was degraded at

535
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: that point in time. So most of the time when

536
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: you think about doing DNA from hair, you you need

537
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: the root all essentially, that's that ensures that you're going

538
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: to be able to, you know, work the case with

539
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 1: viable DNA, our technology had to catch up, like you mentioned,

540
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: and apparently what had happened was that the sample was

541
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: degraded to the point where there was not a root

542
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 1: all that they could work with. So at that point

543
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: in time, you're going to go to the shaft itself.

544
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: And that's where machochondrial DNA comes in, you know, when

545
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 1: you begin to kind of parts the same thing out

546
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: to retrieve a sample out of it, and you it's

547
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: a different approach. It's more time time consuming. But our

548
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: technology had to catch up to that point. Apparently it

549
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: did with vengeance in this particular case.

550
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:01,959
Speaker 3: Let me ask you about the haircut from his wife,

551
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: because yeah, if you if you have, I have dogs

552
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 3: in my house. I've noticed I've gone to the store

553
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 3: and gone to pay for something and realized, looking down, yeah,

554
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 3: I had dog hair on me. You know that I had.

555
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 3: I had stuff from my house and you know it's

556
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 3: on there because we live in it. So it seems

557
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 3: to me like that hair from his wife would be

558
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,919
Speaker 3: even more conclusive evidence that you've got the right guy.

559
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: It would be and and look, hey, you know what

560
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: if what if he did have a dog, Okay, and

561
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: it was a specific breed of dog, and not only

562
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: maybe it's a mut and you've got a combination of

563
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: several genetic markers that are attached to two different species. Okay,

564
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: remember I said, mut So you've got that element that's

565
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: going on, and that would be a specific identifier as well.

566
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: I don't know if this guy has a dog at

567
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: this particular time, but if that kind of hair was

568
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: found in among the evidence, that would be a tie back.

569
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: But you know, you have to the defense in this

570
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: particular case would have a hard time explaining in a

571
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: way how this woman would have in fact had her

572
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: hair with a body of a victim that they believe

573
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 1: is associated with a serial killer. But what's really cool

574
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: about this is that apparently they found the accused hair,

575
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, inside of the bag as well. At some

576
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: point in time they were able to recover one of

577
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: his hairs. And this thing is viable. But it would

578
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: appear that the DNA profile that was you know, probably

579
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: put together on him. They didn't get a hit in CODIS,

580
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: which is the databank that the FBI uses when you

581
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: begin to think about, say, for instance, registered sex offenders,

582
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: people that have committed these horrific crimes and they have

583
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 1: to submit a sample. So you're not going to get

584
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: a hit in CODIS. So how do you begin to

585
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: work back from that? Well, with circumstantial evidence that's associated

586
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: with this case as well. There's apparently burner phones that

587
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: are involved Dave where every time a victim perhaps was contacted,

588
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: and let's face it, un let's just put all the

589
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: cards on the table. These women worked as escorts or

590
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: prostitutes and they were advertising services. So if you use

591
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 1: one of these phones you got and you're not going

592
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: to use your own personal phone to do this, because

593
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: again that goes to tracking. If you can get a

594
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: burner phone, say to a local store, you use it.

595
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: It's kind of an anonymous thing, and you contact individuals

596
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: on the burner phone. You're looking up numbers online, you know,

597
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: for escort services, and you target somebody that you want.

598
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: And apparently in all of these cases, these women were tiny.

599
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: They were petite, and that goes to a bigger picture

600
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: here too that we'll get into in the second. But

601
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: you've got four cell phone towers that are that are

602
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: involved in this. They kind of all communicate with this

603
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: particular geographic region you know where you know, we talk

604
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: about triangulation, you know, when we're trying to pinpoint an

605
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: individual and individual phone signal that's sort of thing. Now

606
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,760
Speaker 1: you got four towers and these phones, these burner phones

607
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: are bouncing off of these towers in the same environment.

608
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: That's a bit of circumstantial evidence there that is a

609
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: tie back electronically. And so as they begin to run

610
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: this down, apparently they have this other hair that's apparently

611
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: relatively viable. They develop a DNA profile that may not

612
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: be showing up on codis. They know that they've got somebody.

613
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: They suspect him because of circumstantial evidence. So what are

614
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: you going to do. Well, you're going to put a

615
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: group of people on him to watch him. And that's

616
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: what the cops did. And isn't it something, Dave that

617
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: the Achilles heel in this case is actually a pizza

618
00:39:54,680 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: box and the contents of the pizza box. Because uh,

619
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 1: just so our listeners understand, if you take courts of

620
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: rule that if you take an item and you throw

621
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: it away, you put it in your garbage or you

622
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: you know, you discard it in a trashman on a

623
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: city street somewhere, you're stating, in effect, I don't want this,

624
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: and I no longer have active possession of it. I

625
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: don't I don't have ownership over at that point in time.

626
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter, man, if you're if your DNA

627
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: signature is left behind on that. So this group of people,

628
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: we would assume that it's probably state police or perhaps

629
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: the task force members of the FBI. They were essentially

630
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: sitting on him and waiting for him to do something,

631
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: and boy did he do it. He left a pizza

632
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: box abandoned. And what do you do with pizza? Well,

633
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: you eat it. And what happens when you eat something

634
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: and you bite into it? Say you're not a crust guy.

635
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: You eat that pizza all the way up to the crust.

636
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: But just imagine biting in to that last bit of

637
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 1: pizza that is immediately adjacent to the crust, and your

638
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: teeth kind of catch the leading edge of the front

639
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: side of that crust. Guess what happens? You deposit saliva there.

640
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: If you deposit saliva there and they are able to

641
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: retrieve that pizza crust, they can actually go in there

642
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: and they can retrieve your sample out of that, and

643
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: then they compare to what they've taken out of the grave. Perhaps,

644
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: And isn't it interesting that this whole case may in

645
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: some ways hinge upon that one piece of evidence. I'm

646
00:41:42,239 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body bags