WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 15 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.600 Hi, I'm Robert sex Reese, host of The Doctor sex 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:07.040 Rees Show, and every episode I listen to people talk 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:10.880 about their sex and intimacy issues, and yes, I despise 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:13.960 every minute of it. And she she made mistakes too, 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:17.560 she kill everyone at her wedding. But hell is real. 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.600 We're all trapped here and there's nothing any of us 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.520 can do about it. So join me, won't you? Listen 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.079 to The Doctor sex re Show every Tuesday on the 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:29.280 I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.479 your podcast. After thirty years, it's time to return to 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.760 the halls of West Beverly High and hang out at 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.199 the peach pit on the podcast nine O two one 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.280 o MG. Visit Jenny Garth and Tory Spelling for a 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.000 rewatch of the hit series Beverly Hills nine O two 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.720 one oh. From the very beginning, we get to tell 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.559 the fans all of the behind the scenes stories to 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.480 actually happen, so they know what happened on camera obviously, 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:53.720 but we can tell them all the good stuff that 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:55.800 happen off camera. Listen to nine O two one O 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:58.720 MG on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.880 wherever you get your podcast. Give us ever attention. We 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.080 need everything you've got fast. Waiting on Reparations would beat 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:09.120 the podcast. Tune in every Thursday politics and wordplay. We 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.080 fight for the people because they got us in the 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.119 worst way, from the Hill, Cooper, the Bomb Bay to Kant, 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.680 from the left enclave to what the neo kanse every 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.280 conversation and to break us off with some break because 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:25.640 we wait repations. Listen to Waiting on Reparations on the 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.640 I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:33.160 your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.240 to let you know. This is a compiletion episode. So 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.959 every episode of the week that just happened is here 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:43.959 in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.160 you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:48.640 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:50.920 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:58.080 can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.320 Here a podcast about things falling apart and occasionally also 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:04.960 about what you can do about it. And today we're 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.880 doing We're we're going, we're we're going completely full into it. 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.640 What you can do about an episode, and specifically we're 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.839 gonna be talking about unions, union organizing, the basics of 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.440 what they are and also some of the history of it, 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.080 and to to talk with us about this. I I 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.760 have brought. I brought my good friend John Horonymus, who 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:28.040 is a nurse steward with National Nurses United in Chicago. John, 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.000 how are you? How are you doing? I'm doing good. 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.240 Yesterday was my first full day back at work after 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.480 being out on light duty from having covid UH for 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.880 this last year. And so I got home yesterday and 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:43.520 was pretty tired because I haven't walked that much in 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:47.280 a day. No, it's fine, but I mean it was 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.600 a good day. I got lots of lugs from my coworkers. 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.360 I didn't I didn't forget anyone's name, which I was 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:57.840 terrified of, um, and didn't funk anything up. Um. And 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:00.480 then when I got when I got home, I hopped 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:03.440 on after I got my kids from school, I hopped 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:07.880 on a union organizing call with twenty nurses from a 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:12.360 hospital in the South. We're very excited about so um 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.600 I was. It was. It was a big day that 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.840 that rules. Oh yeah, yeah, I guess that should also 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:25.000 do a do a very very brief long COVID check 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.440 in because this is a everthing that I think people 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.639 are talking about that is also like a huge labor issue, 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:37.080 which is that Yeah, like long COVID fucking sucks and 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:38.800 like I like I know, like my like like one 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:41.800 of my cousins had it, and you know, they they've 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:43.440 been in bad shape for a long time, like they 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.720 still can't taste properly, and like they I think you 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:51.480 got from from what I remember, like pretty bad, like 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:53.600 in terms of yeah, sorry if you don't have to, 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.200 we don't want to, but oh I don't care. I 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.640 mean I think people should like know that this is 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:02.400 still going on, like the pandemic is still happening. Um, 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.400 people are still getting sick and some are still dying, 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:09.000 which really sucks. And the long COVID thing is real. 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:15.000 Um they I didn't get sick in the sense of 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:16.960 showing up having to be in like a hospital or 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.120 I see you or anything like that. Mine book, I 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:24.719 got sick, and um, the recovery, like the the year 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.160 or the month or so after I got sick was 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:31.200 when things actually got bad because something happened with my 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.840 um my nerves and my neuro I had a neuromuscular 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:41.320 variant of like the long COVID symptoms, and that led 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.520 me to having all its kinds of issues with basically 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.279 just being exhausted from basic things. Anything more than just 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:49.280 getting up and walking around. I would have to like 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.880 lay in bed afterwards. And it would add multiple episodes 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:56.240 of the past year where I would cross some invisible 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.839 line in terms of like endurance and then be stuck 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.400 in bed for a week. And so it's been a 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.760 long thing, but I've been slowly getting better, and people 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:07.920 who fall into that neuromuscular thing do slowly get better. 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:12.680 I think that's the upshot. People with heart problems, those 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:17.200 tend to be permanent and aren't getting better, which sucks. Um, 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.479 But yeah, I mean it's just like I think that 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.760 a lot of people. It's a very weird, surreal thing 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:28.640 to watch what is effectively like a like a a 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:34.640 global public health catastrophe get politicized the way it has 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:38.160 and treated the way it has been by everybody involved. 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:42.440 So um, anyway, I just I'm doing better with that, 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.800 and it's shaped me over the last year, and it's 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:51.200 shaped union organizing, and um, I'm glad that I would 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.000 say this to people who are thinking about unions. I'm 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.320 glad that I had the union kind of backing me up, um, 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:57.719 even when I had to pull them a little bit 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:00.400 in the direct the right direction. It's much better to 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:04.040 have that kind of collective power behind you when you're 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.280 dealing with those kind of problems. So that's actually a 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:13.400 good way into looking at just sort of in general 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:17.600 what a union is, because I think there's there's there's 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:21.159 two things here. There is what a union is legally 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.080 and what a union actually is in terms of just 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.400 the people in it and the sort of power behind it. 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:29.920 And so I was wondering if you could, well, one, 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:33.440 I mean, just on an incredibly basic level, explain what 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.960 a union is like legally, like what is legally defined 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.159 as doing, because I feel like that's also something that 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.800 is not as well understood as it should be. Yeah, 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.600 for sure. So in the United States, there's a series 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.880 of laws that kind of regulates um, you know, the 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:56.800 kind of collective UM bargaining UM and collective organization of 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:01.920 workers at work UM and or being to understand is 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:08.799 that UM. Those laws are mostly designed to constrain workers 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:15.880 power to affect their their you know, working conditions UM. 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:19.120 And so when you look at what a union legally 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:25.559 is UM, unions are, for the most part UM, they're 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.080 legal organizations that kind of like operate on a dues basis. 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.800 So if you're in a union, you're paying dues out 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:38.080 of your paycheck. UM. If you work at a unionized workplace, 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:42.400 those dues will get subtracted out regardless of your membership 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:45.880 or activity within the union. UM. One thing that people 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:49.800 don't understand is that you can if you don't want 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:54.880 your dues to go to anything besides supporting organizing your 0:07:54.920 --> 0:08:00.800 particular workplace, you can request unions are legally wired to 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:05.080 offer you that as an option UM. And then those 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.880 dudes get taken out of your paycheck and they get 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:13.320 used to do things like rent a union hall, UM, 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:19.080 pay staffers to help you with your organizing. UM. They 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:24.600 get taken to do lobbying, various types of political activity. 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:29.080 And so for a lot of people, unions will feel 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.600 like a professional association that lobbies on their behalf rather 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:38.000 than a collective expression of the will of workers in 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:43.600 a particular workplace. But UM or it'll feel like patronage 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:48.599 machine for you know, Democratic Party, that sort of stuff. UM. 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.880 But that being said, UM unions all have by laws, 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:57.000 they all have mechanisms by which there you know, theoretically 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:03.880 democratically accountable to the membership UM. And there are oftentimes 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:10.679 UM campaigns by workers to change how unions operate and UM. 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.000 And then also you know, when you're setting up a union, 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:14.440 if you're in a new if you're in a place 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:16.480 that doesn't have a union, and you're looking to get 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:21.280 a union because you're fed up with not having any 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.120 kind of power over your workplace, or you feel like 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.720 people are getting discriminated against or bullied, UM, you feel 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.720 like you haven't gotten a raise, UM, those sorts of things. 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:33.840 You can pick the union that you decide if you 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.680 want to get up a collective bargaining agreement, which is 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:40.520 a legal contract kind of like dictating how your workplace 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:44.320 operates in a uniform way. You can pick the union 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.920 that you want to organize with, and their unions that 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.440 are better to organize with, that are more democratic and 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:53.960 more collectively accountable. There are unions that are more organized 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.320 or more focused on actually building the union power and 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:01.800 organizing new workplaces. And then there are unions that are 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.480 kind of like there you know, and I'm gonna say 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:07.840 that kind of blur in the US, there's like a 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:11.800 blurry line between rank and file unions and business unions 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:13.679 because even the rank and file unions are kind of 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:17.840 constrained by the same pressures that business unions operate under. 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:23.280 And I'll explain the difference. I'll sell any difference in 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:24.640 a second, but I just want to say that, like 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.440 when you're when you're getting a new union, it's really 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.320 important for you to critically look at what your options 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:35.360 are and you're setting who you're organizing with, because unions 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:39.960 have different cultures and different amounts of um, different kinds 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.360 of politics, and you should be aware of that before 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.199 you and your coworkers decide to commit to working with 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.439 one union while you're getting an or a union organized. Um. 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.360 And then I can explain that next part if you 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:59.600 want me to. All right, So, yeah, So, And you know, 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:03.960 if you it deep into union history and deep into 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.960 organizing and figuring out like what unions are and what 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:09.880 they do and how they've worked kind of in the past, 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:14.640 you'll find that there's different types of unions. So American 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:20.240 unions started as like kind of like craft guilds, where 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.679 basically you would have a factory that might have like 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:29.240 twenty different unions of each individual group of people UM 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.960 in each individual skill set would be underneath the union, 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:33.320 and it was used as a way to kind of 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:37.719 control UM who was able to do the work and 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.520 who was getting hired in to do the work. And 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.320 a lot of times that would end up in the 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:49.880 United States UM being segregated UM and there would be 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.000 these called union scabbing where you would go in and 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:58.439 do work against people who are striking because your union 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:00.880 was fine and you were cool with your boss and 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:03.200 these other people, whatever their problem is, You're just going 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.480 to keep doing. The boss will offer you more money 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.360 and you'll do the work right. So, and a lot 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.240 of that has kind of carried into we called trade 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:15.560 unions in the US a specific and trade unionism is 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:24.920 particularly UM prominent in UH in construction. So you'll have carpenters, 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.000 and you'll have you know, masons, and you'll have you know, 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.840 pipe fitters and iron workers and all these different guys 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:33.600 and they all kind of come together and work as 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.040 a crew for like a construction company, and oftentimes their 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:42.200 union operates more like a contractor than like a collective 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:48.520 like expression of the power of those workers. So um, 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.280 then there are more there are unions that are would 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:56.360 be considered like industrial unions, so industrial unions. Industrial unionism 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.559 was invented by a union a hundred years ago called 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:03.280 the Industrial Workers of the World, and they were like, 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.280 what if we got took all of the workers in 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.440 an industry and got them into one big union, right, 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.680 and then what if all those workers in those different 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.480 industries were talking to each other and building their their 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.439 power And the goal would be that you had become 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.959 so powerful that you could basically take over industries as 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.880 workers and run them on a democratic basis, so that 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:33.199 you wouldn't have you kind of liquidate capital and want 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.840 I want to say this briefly also like yeah, so 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.280 the bosses did not like this. I mean the MW, 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.320 Like the MW was so feared that like like there's 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.600 only the Everett massacre where it's like it got to 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:46.760 a point in the early neteen hundreds where just a 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.520 group of IWW people showing up to a place was 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.880 enough to get like the the the the entire like 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.960 the entire city police force and like rounding up literally 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:57.880 every right winger they could do and deputizing them and 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.959 then just opening fire like into the crowd because like 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.760 the IWW had showed up on a boat like this 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:07.160 was these people were terried, like people were terrified of them. 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:08.640 And I think that the other thing I think is 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:13.080 really interesting about the early WWS history is that is 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:14.679 the so you know, part of the response to them 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:16.680 is like they are just massive, and this is what 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:18.480 the first red scare was. Basically it was an anti 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:22.560 IWW thing. And also you know, they shot people, they 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:27.000 arrested people, they like they deported people, and but they 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:28.960 also you know a lot of the things that I 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.640 think we we have this tendency to look at as 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.760 like a socialist reform where for example, like putting workers 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.880 on corporate boards, right, or like like in internal democratic 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:39.720 self management, but that's like, you know, that's still still 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.520 sort of boss controlled, right. It's like, well, okay, you 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:43.760 have like a council of people who can make recommendations 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.680 or like even even down to you know, we're going 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.400 to have our own internal like corporate unions like set 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:50.720 up by the company, but you know that the corporate 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:52.360 union gives you a workers council and the council can 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.000 sort of control production. But you know, it's it's still 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:56.720 it's still run by the bosses. Like all of these 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.800 things were stuff that like the Rockefellers set up or 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:02.000 like even even the early New Levels would set stuff 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.960 up because they were they were so scared of people, 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.720 Like they were so scared if people just taking over 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.640 stuff democratically, just running it just literally through the union 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:14.880 that they were like, we will we will literally give 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.640 you democracy in the workplace. We will give you like 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.680 we will give you like workers on corporate boards literally 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:25.840 just so long as you don't like take everything over. Yeah, 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:30.320 I think that it's it's hard for people to imagine 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:36.880 how intense like the struggle for getting any kind of 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.920 rights in the workplace. I've been in the United States 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:43.000 in particular. I think a lot of people think that, 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.280 you know, uh, maybe not so much anymore. But when 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:50.520 I was younger, you know, twenty years ago, people would 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:52.560 be like, oh, you know, we're in America. We've got 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.000 you know, like we've got all these things, like we've 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:56.800 got you know, an eight hour work day, and we've 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.520 got like a weekend and all. And the thing is 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.040 is it literally only people were murdered to win those things, right, Like, 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.840 if you like the reason why we have an eight 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:10.360 hour work day is because there was in Chicago a 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:15.920 famous uh, a famous strike that um ended up with 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:20.480 a massacre of UM. It was like a police riot, 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.480 and then they rounded up a bunch of union organizers, 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:29.040 socialists and anarchists who were like involved in the labor 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.640 movement at that time, and then the state of Illinois 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:37.320 hung them. UM. And so the wife of one of them, 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:42.280 of one of those people who was murdered at the 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:47.280 Haymarket or they called them the Haymarket murders, h Albert 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:51.560 Parsons was one of them. Her or his wife, Lucy Parsons, 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.960 who was had a very veritable kind of like not 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.080 quite sure what her background was, but we do know 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:03.400 that she was probably be a former slave. H Albert 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.720 Parsons was a former Confederate. They got married in the South, 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:11.720 became Southern Republicans trying to like participate in radical reconstruction, 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.480 and then they basically had to flee because they were 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.600 um with their lives to the north and UH. But 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:22.200 after that whole trial and all that shook out, Lucy 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:28.119 Parsons became a labor agitator across the United States, fighting 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:32.640 for the eight Hour Day and U and they memorialized 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.520 the Haymarket Martyrs and something that I think some of 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.000 your listeners will know about. Maybe they won't, but you know, 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.440 made a made a A lot of people is like, oh, 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.760 that's Russian or some foreign sort of thing. Now, that 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.919 is an American labor tradition that like started here, and 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:52.760 it was because of a specific like the the labor 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:54.440 movement in the movement for the eight hour day in 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.040 the United States. So um, and that's kind of like 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:00.960 once you go from the i w W and industrial 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.240 unions as an idea, it got crushed in the twenties 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.200 because it was so terrifying. There's a really good, uh, 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.879 a really good essay on all that called the stop 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.800 Watch and the Wooden Shoe by a guy named Mike Davis, 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.000 who kind of explains how it is that IWW as 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.480 the first union too not only um try and build 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:26.080 workers organization, but to challenge workplace organization and to make 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.120 those push back on how production was happening and fight 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.920 something called the speed up where I think a lot 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.120 of people who have worked have experienced this time where 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:36.800 a boss will come in and say we're gonna do 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:40.760 things differently. And they'll either get rid of a worker 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.359 and put all the extra work onto people who remain, 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.359 or they'll change things so you're doing more with the 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:52.040 same amount of time. UM they got you know, they 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:58.120 provoked a backlash. UM. There were like spectacular like general strikes. 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:02.400 The first general strike in America. UH in Seattle, there 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:06.440 were i w W members who are key members of 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.600 the Seattle Labor Council, which took craft unions and got 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:14.359 their radicals together and coordinated a general strike, which is 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:16.760 where there's a lot of tweets about general strikes, but 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:21.000 general strikes require a lot of organization and coordination. We 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:22.800 can talk about that later if we want to, but 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:27.760 the key thing is the IWW was always pushing for 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.240 the organization necessary to pull off a general strike, and 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:35.879 they did it. And so amongst those different things and 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:42.879 their mind wars in Colorado, mine wars in Virginia, West Virginia, UM, 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:48.480 they were the first union that was explicitly anti racist. UM. 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:54.440 They they weren't perfect, but they were, but they organized 0:19:54.520 --> 0:20:00.000 multi racial unions in UM Philadelphia, the docks, and various 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.520 other places. They were one of the few unions that 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.600 really took the first steps into organizing in the South 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.560 in the way that um, a lot of unions have 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.399 kind of failed too since and because they were so 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.400 effective and so frightening, they got crushed. Yeah, I mean. Also, 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:17.399 whatever thing I want I want to say about them 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.840 is that like, like the WW fought in the Mexican 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.880 Revolution because you know a lot of the WW members 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.399 in California particular were like a lot of a lot 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.040 of indigenous people, a lot of sort of boted Mexican immigrants. 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:31.680 So yeah, they had these huge eies and like they 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.119 like they I think, I think to this day, this 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.800 is still true outside of Puerto Rico, Like they are 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.119 the only leftist movement that has ever like taking control 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.760 of an American city, like they took to Lexico and 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:44.639 Mexicality and like a bunch of the sort of the 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:49.920 border area. Yeah. That that's that, that's you know, part 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:54.240 of why it just escalates to everyone starts shooting them 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.880 because well, and and they were truly an international union 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:02.119 because they were they focused on uh, longshoremen and organizing 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.760 and docks that sort of thing. There were members of 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:10.119 the i w W organizing basically everywhere in the world, 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:13.520 and they were considered part of like what was like 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:17.840 a global movement, and we call them syndicalists, which is 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:22.280 kind of like a an Italian term or French term um, 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:25.600 which is this the you know, like like the Latin 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:30.760 version of the Union of syndicate and UM. There were 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:35.280 similar unions across the world up through the early twentieth 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:39.680 century until right about the time when the Russians, the 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:45.520 Russian Revolution happened, and then there were subsequent crackdowns. And 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:52.639 because these people, who I mean, the IWW was a 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:57.480 mix of native native born Americans and immigrants, and they 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:01.280 were painted as this foreign sort of force. They were 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:04.200 un American. That was like the whole nexus of un 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:08.520 Americanism as like an idea, and the US state was 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:12.040 able to mobilize after World War One to really put 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:17.200 that down. And so so there's a lot of history 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:21.760 there and then, but the idea of the industrial Union 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:27.000 didn't go away, right The union, the IWW was effectively 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:30.640 dismembered and scattered. But a lot of people who had 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:35.200 experienced as IWW members, who had been in those strikes 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:39.280 UM didn't like just disappear. They didn't all get deported 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:42.480 or sent away. UM. A lot of them kind of 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:46.719 tuck their heads down and went back to work, you know. 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:51.480 And in the ninet thirties we saw the rise of 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:56.960 another industrial the next step towards industrial unionism. So it's 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:58.919 called the c i OH, which is the Congress of 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:04.600 Industrial Organization. Now there were multiple at that point. There 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:10.680 was the Communist Party USA, the Socialist Party of America, 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.920 and UM former members of the i w W and 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:21.240 various like anarchists who were participants in kind of the 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:25.000 organization of the c i O. And the thing about 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:29.600 c i O was was that when they came together, UM, 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:32.600 it was in the Great Depression had really kind of 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:37.080 kicked off, and they were able to organize like really 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:41.879 explosively across all these new industries. So they like the 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:46.320 u a W. United Auto Workers was like part of 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.439 the c i O, and they would they pioneered forms 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:53.600 of strikes called sit down strike, which was basically a 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:56.639 factory seizure. All the workers would just say, we're not 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.439 going to walk out, We're going to lock ourselves in 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:02.560 and we're going to sit down and it's our factory now, 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:08.680 and now you're going to have to negotiate with And 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:11.679 it became this thing where it was like millions of 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:16.400 people were like the I w W at any one 0:24:16.440 --> 0:24:19.919 time was like hundreds of thousands of people. And the 0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:23.040 c I O became a thing where it was millions 0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:28.040 of people and UM. And at least at the beginning 0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:31.879 when they had there, when they had we're at the 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:36.719 peak of their like power and militancy. UM. They were 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:41.120 able to mobilize workers to take over factories, take over 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:43.800 factories from some of the most powerful corporations on the 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:49.800 earth on Earth. And you know, at the same time, UM, 0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:55.560 while they were doing this, the police and UH company 0:24:55.920 --> 0:25:00.399 UM company security and vigilantes which had never gone away 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:02.920 from like the IW we're doing the same sorts of things. 0:25:03.119 --> 0:25:08.520 So they would regularly beat strikers, would regularly there would 0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:14.879 be you know, regular labor massacres, UM disappearances of various 0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:19.679 UM of labor organizers or labor leaders or even just 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:24.280 random workers that they thought were like, oh, you're a unionist, UM. 0:25:24.280 --> 0:25:26.160 You know, get in the back of this uh, get 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:28.119 in the back of this truck. And then they were 0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:33.720 never seen again. UM. And then laws started to be enacted, 0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:39.440 I believe out of fear that if this, if this 0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:43.160 movement didn't get somehow put under brought in under control, 0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:49.639 that there would be a revolution and so. Uh so 0:25:49.760 --> 0:25:52.840 that's when we started to see the enactment of laws 0:25:52.920 --> 0:25:57.119 like the National Labor Relations Act, which made having a 0:25:57.240 --> 0:25:59.560 union like that was the first time when being any 0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:05.119 union is considered legal at the federal level. And that uh, 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:10.159 the FDR and the New Deal Democrats basically attempted to 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.840 broker something called labor peace where they would say, we're 0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:18.399 no longer going to mobilize the state against workers in 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:21.280 the way that we have previously. Now local police would 0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:24.639 still side with bosses that sort of thing. But uh, 0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:28.320 and those sorts of massacres and that sort of stuff 0:26:28.359 --> 0:26:34.359 didn't really go away until like the forties. Um. But um, 0:26:34.440 --> 0:26:36.360 that was the beginning of because what you do see 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:39.720 is unions get channeled into Once you have like a 0:26:39.760 --> 0:26:44.399 million people in the union, you have just enormous amounts 0:26:44.440 --> 0:26:48.320 of resources, all these dues coming in. You have the 0:26:48.359 --> 0:26:52.360 beginning of the labor bureaucracy. Whereas before it would be 0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:55.800 you know, there would be hired you know, paid labor organizers, 0:26:55.840 --> 0:26:58.680 but they were always shifting around, and they were they 0:26:58.680 --> 0:27:03.399 were brought up as communists or socialists, and they had 0:27:03.440 --> 0:27:06.639 ideological commitments to building the power of the union and 0:27:06.680 --> 0:27:09.760 the power workers that you know, if you are just 0:27:09.840 --> 0:27:14.440 a you know, and someone with some ambition and decided 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:17.119 you want to become like anyone at this point, you know, 0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:20.320 who wants to become a paid union staffer. If you're 0:27:20.400 --> 0:27:24.000 like you know, if you care to and a lot 0:27:24.040 --> 0:27:28.840 of people, um, then being a union staffer was a 0:27:28.840 --> 0:27:31.399 different thing than it is now. It was I think 0:27:33.520 --> 0:27:37.520 I'm trying to remember the name of the president. I 0:27:37.520 --> 0:27:40.959 think it's John Lewis. John Lewis, who was a Republican 0:27:41.200 --> 0:27:44.000 back in the day said, you know, I think famously 0:27:44.000 --> 0:27:45.240 said at one point it's like if you want to 0:27:45.240 --> 0:27:47.280 build a union, or if you want to build a house, 0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:49.920 you call a carpenter, if you want to build a union, 0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:55.480 you call communists, and so uh and so they would 0:27:55.480 --> 0:27:58.720 literally would go to like the the you know, the 0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:01.800 Communist Party and say we need organizers. And the Communist 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:03.879 Party did a lot of work to training people to 0:28:03.920 --> 0:28:08.240 be organizers. And they were militant, they were ready to 0:28:08.280 --> 0:28:10.439 throw down because to them, they were looking at this 0:28:10.480 --> 0:28:14.200 as part of a class struggle against you know, bosses, 0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:19.000 and you know, a way of overthrown capital UM. That 0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:24.679 kind of went through until World War two. And uh, 0:28:25.840 --> 0:28:30.720 when World War two hit, that's when the Soviet Union, 0:28:31.520 --> 0:28:36.040 which in many ways controlled what was happening with communists 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:39.560 with cp us A, basically said we need a labor 0:28:39.640 --> 0:28:44.080 piece because we need to support the war effort. And 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:51.120 so that's when union started signing contracts with no strike clauses, 0:28:51.800 --> 0:28:55.080 and they started um agreeing that they would no longer 0:28:55.120 --> 0:29:01.000 strike UM and and they started agreeing to things like 0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:05.080 speed ups. There used to be a time when uh, 0:29:05.120 --> 0:29:08.720 these mass industrial unions, the stewards would walk around with 0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:11.600 a whistle on their neck. They have a whistle on 0:29:11.640 --> 0:29:15.320 a lanyard and any time that workers decided that this 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:18.400 is like an example of how powerful these unions were. 0:29:19.000 --> 0:29:22.400 Not just like as like an organization, but every day 0:29:22.440 --> 0:29:27.240 at your workplace, if you thought that something was not right, 0:29:27.440 --> 0:29:29.400 or you were not being treated fairly, or somehow the 0:29:29.480 --> 0:29:32.680 contract was in breach, you would go to your steward 0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:35.320 and your steward would pull out this whistle and it 0:29:35.400 --> 0:29:37.880 would blow the whistle. It's called a whistle stop strike 0:29:38.560 --> 0:29:42.000 and everyone would set down their tools until management would 0:29:42.040 --> 0:29:45.080 come out and they would either agree to pay more 0:29:46.000 --> 0:29:51.240 or stop what was happening and fix it, and so um, 0:29:51.280 --> 0:29:55.360 there was a time when strikes would be you would 0:29:55.400 --> 0:29:58.920 have intermittent work stoppages. So you wouldn't go out like indefinitely. 0:29:58.920 --> 0:30:01.440 You would go out on strike like three months though 0:30:01.480 --> 0:30:04.800 that happened. You wouldn't just and it wouldn't just be 0:30:04.840 --> 0:30:07.360 your factory. It would be Hey, we're getting on the 0:30:07.360 --> 0:30:10.080 phone and we're calling our friends down the street at 0:30:10.080 --> 0:30:13.080 the next at your supplier. It's called a secondary strike. 0:30:13.200 --> 0:30:16.360 So if you're working at like a steel mill, and 0:30:16.400 --> 0:30:20.440 your steel mills dependent on coke from the next factory over, 0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:23.920 you're calling up your friends in the same union down 0:30:23.960 --> 0:30:27.800 the way, say stop sending coke, stop sending materials. Where 0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:31.480 these things to us? We're on strike, you guys, you 0:30:31.560 --> 0:30:34.840 all set your tools down, you go on strike. And 0:30:34.920 --> 0:30:38.719 it would and these strikes would like massively expand, so 0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:41.120 you would see things instead of seeing you know, we 0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:46.480 just went through Striketober, right, Yeah, and we just and 0:30:46.600 --> 0:30:48.720 so we saw like what we call a strike wave. 0:30:49.360 --> 0:30:51.480 But in and in some ways it was a strike wave. 0:30:51.560 --> 0:30:54.480 But I think that we still don't. I think it's 0:30:54.520 --> 0:30:56.760 so far away from living memory of what a real 0:30:56.840 --> 0:31:00.400 strike wave is where people would go on strike in 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:03.040 one factory and then the next factory, in the next factory, 0:31:03.040 --> 0:31:04.960 the next very It literally would be a way of 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:08.560 people um going on strike. And this was all the 0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:11.360 results of all the organization that people had, in the 0:31:11.400 --> 0:31:14.120 militant attitude that people had about like how they were 0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:17.960 going to be treated at work. It's worth mentioning that 0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:20.400 one of the so the National Labor Relations Act, which 0:31:20.400 --> 0:31:22.360 because past nineteen turty five, which is like the you know, 0:31:22.400 --> 0:31:24.760 this is the beginning of labor piece, like you know, 0:31:24.800 --> 0:31:26.320 it's okay, we'll give you the right to re union, 0:31:26.360 --> 0:31:29.240 but you cannot do secondary strikes like that, Like this 0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:31.520 is this is explicitly banned in this if I'm remembering 0:31:31.560 --> 0:31:33.640 this right, is that there's a specific thing that says 0:31:33.640 --> 0:31:35.680 you can't do secondary strikes anymore. And you know, and 0:31:35.880 --> 0:31:39.880 this was this was you know, the basis of this 0:31:39.960 --> 0:31:42.560 piece was that like, yeah, as you sort of said before, 0:31:42.600 --> 0:31:44.920 it was like, well, okay, so the state will put 0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:47.040 their guns down, but the workers also essentially had to 0:31:47.040 --> 0:31:50.120 put their guns down. And yeah, and this this starts 0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:54.080 this whole process of you know, once once you lose 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:57.920 like that kind of consciousness. And once you lose just 0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:00.959 the practical experience of doing this stuff, it kind of 0:32:01.000 --> 0:32:04.720 it fades and and over time, you know, yeah, the 0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:07.440 atrophies and and the unions get weaker and weaker because 0:32:08.080 --> 0:32:10.040 you know, like with without like you know what, once 0:32:10.040 --> 0:32:12.400 you once you've set aside, right and you've decided that 0:32:12.400 --> 0:32:15.160 you're gonna essentially you know, okay, we're gonna we're gonna 0:32:15.160 --> 0:32:17.040 follow the laws, we're gonna sit down, we're gonna do this, 0:32:17.760 --> 0:32:19.880 We're gonna like negotiate in good faith, we're going to 0:32:20.000 --> 0:32:22.160 have all of this sort of um, you know, we're 0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:26.920 we're gonna go through the national relations board. It's like, well, 0:32:26.960 --> 0:32:30.200 at that point, people like people, people's willingness to pick 0:32:30.240 --> 0:32:33.320 the weapons back up that they put down just sort 0:32:33.360 --> 0:32:39.000 of continues to diminish. Well, I think what happens is 0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:41.760 I mean, And so there was like a ten year period. 0:32:42.240 --> 0:32:44.880 So first there was like the first five you know, 0:32:45.080 --> 0:32:46.959 five ten years of c I oh was when we 0:32:47.120 --> 0:32:51.520 see like this really like intense militancy within these unions. 0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:56.680 And halfway through like you know, the passage of that 0:32:56.760 --> 0:32:59.600 first long in the nineties, Um, that's when we started 0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:02.160 to see the erosion, and we constantly see I think 0:33:02.160 --> 0:33:04.239 I think that people don't understand that our bosses are 0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:08.800 always trying to assert their control over work, and we'll 0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:12.080 see that like UM, bosses will do all kinds of 0:33:12.080 --> 0:33:14.800 contortions as long as they get to stay in charge 0:33:15.120 --> 0:33:18.080 and that they're unquestioned. And I don't think we understand 0:33:18.200 --> 0:33:21.880 quite how long the long game is for UM, for management, 0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:24.720 for our bosses, and for capital. And so you know, 0:33:24.760 --> 0:33:27.080 it starts with the National Labor Relations Act and then 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:30.120 it goes through uh, um, it goes through World War 0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:33.720 two and our World War two. That's when the c 0:33:33.920 --> 0:33:37.080 i O goes from you know, you know, millions of 0:33:37.080 --> 0:33:40.600 people to like tens of millions and it becomes like 0:33:40.600 --> 0:33:44.120 a thing where like that's when you know, like Americans 0:33:44.120 --> 0:33:48.719 are in a union, right um, because I mean to 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:56.640 the extent that that, to the extent that um, there 0:33:56.640 --> 0:33:59.440 were those compromises happened. It didn't just compromise. It wasn't 0:33:59.480 --> 0:34:02.600 just like a failure of like, oh, like we're just 0:34:02.640 --> 0:34:05.800 going to start capitulating. It's like there were interests inside 0:34:05.840 --> 0:34:08.400 the union. They're looking at like, well, this is a 0:34:08.400 --> 0:34:10.279 lot of resources and power that we have now but 0:34:10.360 --> 0:34:14.600 wait until like it's you know of Americans paying union dudes, 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:17.759 and there were people inside the Democratic Party who were 0:34:17.840 --> 0:34:24.040 willing to trade UM that labor piece for that. You 0:34:24.040 --> 0:34:27.359 would start to see, you know, that's when politicians would 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:31.520 show up to UM two union halls to talk and 0:34:31.560 --> 0:34:33.160 try and get you know, and that's when you know, 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:36.800 the Democratic Party, it would be it wouldn't be unusual 0:34:36.840 --> 0:34:41.920 to hear a Democratic politician UM say things about like 0:34:42.040 --> 0:34:46.720 labor that you would like that no politician would say today. 0:34:47.080 --> 0:34:48.839 And now that doesn't mean that they were like on 0:34:48.880 --> 0:34:50.680 the side of the workers, but you know, you would 0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:56.799 have literally, um, President Eisenhower telling the president of U. S. 0:34:56.800 --> 0:34:59.560 Steel to get fucked over like a general, like you're 0:34:59.600 --> 0:35:01.920 you're trying to shut down like you know, this is 0:35:02.000 --> 0:35:05.680 like the the steel industry is the lifeblood of backbone 0:35:05.719 --> 0:35:08.839 of the American economy, um, you know, and you're trying 0:35:08.840 --> 0:35:11.560 to shut this down, trying to kill the golden goose, 0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:14.120 like get back to work, let the pay these people 0:35:14.120 --> 0:35:18.040 what they're asking UM. But you know, so you would 0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:19.920 see the people who kind of floated to the top 0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:27.680 of those UH unions trading there, trading away their workers 0:35:27.760 --> 0:35:31.160 power and their workers well being for more and more months. 0:35:31.160 --> 0:35:33.480 First off, there would be more money, so you would 0:35:33.560 --> 0:35:36.520 you like, they would start getting raises that were really substantial, 0:35:36.560 --> 0:35:39.880 and it would boost up a union steel worker or 0:35:40.000 --> 0:35:43.320 union auto worker into what we consider like the comfortable 0:35:43.320 --> 0:35:46.799 middle class where people could like buy a like a 0:35:46.880 --> 0:35:49.480 fishing cabin or something up on a lake, send their 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:52.359 kids to college, all these sorts of things that we're 0:35:52.440 --> 0:35:55.440 just kind of like unobtainable sorts of things if you 0:35:55.480 --> 0:35:58.120 were the same in the same industry twenty years earlier 0:35:59.200 --> 0:36:03.480 and um and that felt like wins you know, two people. 0:36:03.960 --> 0:36:07.600 And also in the nineteen forties, after World War Two, 0:36:07.600 --> 0:36:10.759 they passed the taff Hartley Act, which basically meant that 0:36:10.800 --> 0:36:15.359 they forced unions. Well they didn't, okay, they wrote into 0:36:15.440 --> 0:36:18.040 law that it was illegal to be a communist or 0:36:18.080 --> 0:36:23.120 an anarchist in uh in a union. And so they're 0:36:23.120 --> 0:36:27.000 literally still unions that still have language in their in 0:36:27.080 --> 0:36:29.879 their membership parts or they're like I declare, I'm I've 0:36:29.880 --> 0:36:32.680 never been a member of the Communist Party. I'm not 0:36:32.760 --> 0:36:36.120 an you know, an anarchist. Uh. I mean like I've 0:36:36.600 --> 0:36:38.120 I have friends who have pulled that out. Now it 0:36:38.120 --> 0:36:41.640 doesn't have any effect now. But that was they basically 0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:45.480 took all the people, you know, the people that uh 0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:47.319 that were you know, the people that you would have 0:36:47.320 --> 0:36:51.240 called to build the union twenty years later or before 0:36:51.800 --> 0:36:55.279 we're getting thrown out of unions. And that didn't happen 0:36:55.280 --> 0:36:57.400 in every like there were attempts to do that in 0:36:57.480 --> 0:37:00.440 all kinds of countries. Uh, they try to do it 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:04.560 in the UK, and the unions in the UK told 0:37:05.120 --> 0:37:07.759 basically told the government to go fund themselves. And they 0:37:07.880 --> 0:37:11.719 you know, it's like but because the leadership of the 0:37:13.080 --> 0:37:17.359 of the c I O industrial unions began to see 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:21.560 themselves more in alignment with are ruling class and are 0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:25.120 you know, like the Democratic Party, they decided that they 0:37:25.120 --> 0:37:27.440 were big enough that they didn't have to have militants 0:37:27.480 --> 0:37:32.719 involved anymore. And that's when you know, uh, people were 0:37:32.800 --> 0:37:36.239 literally would get fired out of did either either militants 0:37:36.320 --> 0:37:39.600 in staff would get fired or uh, they would get 0:37:39.880 --> 0:37:42.200 fired out of factories if you're like a rank and 0:37:42.239 --> 0:37:45.840 file worker. So um, and that's when we begin to 0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:48.719 see the rise of what we call business unionism. And 0:37:48.719 --> 0:37:54.600 that's where he would have union bureaucrats would and um 0:37:54.880 --> 0:37:58.799 would you know, would basically start making concessionary contracts and 0:37:58.800 --> 0:38:00.560 this started you know back in you know, a lot 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:02.600 of people are like, oh, you know, back in the fifties, 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:06.080 unions are really powerful and they were powerful to get 0:38:06.120 --> 0:38:09.319 you know, like raises, but those races came at the 0:38:09.360 --> 0:38:12.120 expense of control over the work process. It came at 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:16.080 the expense of the speed up UM and as unions 0:38:16.280 --> 0:38:19.239 like because the rank and file workers, like you're saying, 0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:21.359 you know, rank and file workers, and they see their 0:38:21.440 --> 0:38:23.680 things there, these tools getting put down, and they were 0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:26.479 more reluctant to pick them up, first off, is because 0:38:26.480 --> 0:38:30.120 of the amount of money that they're getting paid. And 0:38:30.280 --> 0:38:32.920 but they did push back. They were like this is 0:38:33.200 --> 0:38:35.560 I mean, like there's a really great book called The 0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:40.440 Next Shift UM by Gabriel Winant. It's all about the 0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:44.320 shift from steel, the steel industry as like the center 0:38:44.360 --> 0:38:49.000 of the U. S economy to healthcare UM and how 0:38:49.400 --> 0:38:53.960 unions basically started to erode away there like throw it 0:38:54.080 --> 0:38:58.359 like hand over their power in exchange for money. And 0:38:58.400 --> 0:39:02.440 then when they are told like there was UM and 0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:07.919 attempts to get socialized medicine and the under the Truman administration, 0:39:08.960 --> 0:39:13.960 and when they were basically ah, they they hit a 0:39:14.040 --> 0:39:17.799 speed bump in there and it got shot down. They 0:39:17.840 --> 0:39:22.040 decided that instead of trying to win those uh, those 0:39:22.080 --> 0:39:25.279 broad social reforms for everybody, they're like, well, we can 0:39:25.360 --> 0:39:29.880 use our our power to strike to get basically construct 0:39:29.880 --> 0:39:33.200 a private welfare state for our workers. And so that's 0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:37.120 when you begin to see UM things like uh. The 0:39:37.120 --> 0:39:40.200 they call them like the gold plated insurance plans for 0:39:40.480 --> 0:39:44.759 certain types of unionized workers, and those would kind of 0:39:44.920 --> 0:39:47.200 UM and those are kind of used as like a 0:39:47.239 --> 0:39:50.400 private welfare state for all those workers. And it was 0:39:50.440 --> 0:39:53.520 built with the assumption you're going to have low cost 0:39:54.600 --> 0:40:00.480 workers basically doing all this care work UM, and oftentimes 0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:05.520 it would be women of color and UM. And through 0:40:05.520 --> 0:40:07.880 that you start to see this real sharp pick client 0:40:08.640 --> 0:40:15.919 from the sixties in like uh in union um, militancy UM. 0:40:15.960 --> 0:40:20.680 And that's when factory, when capital starts moving factories out 0:40:20.680 --> 0:40:24.280 of city centers where it's very easy to organize a factory, 0:40:24.280 --> 0:40:27.880 when everyone lives within walking distance the factory, and when 0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:30.719 they're done with their shift at the factory, they're all 0:40:30.760 --> 0:40:34.200 at the bar outside the outside the factory gates, and 0:40:34.280 --> 0:40:35.440 you can just like if you want to have a 0:40:35.520 --> 0:40:38.200 union meeting, if you want organized, even a wildcat strike, 0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:40.279 all you have to do is show up at the 0:40:40.360 --> 0:40:42.839 right bar, and that's where everyone is after they're done 0:40:42.840 --> 0:40:48.439 with their shift. Um, they started moving and dispersing the 0:40:48.520 --> 0:40:52.920 industrial capacity of the United of you know, the the 0:40:53.000 --> 0:40:57.239 US urban core out into suburbs. So that's now where 0:40:57.280 --> 0:41:00.760 you'll drive through rural Indiana and you'll pass like five 0:41:00.840 --> 0:41:03.839 factories and they're surrounded by nothing but corn fields. It's 0:41:03.880 --> 0:41:07.759 because it's a lot harder to organize auto workers when 0:41:07.760 --> 0:41:10.120 they all live thirty minute drive from each other and 0:41:10.160 --> 0:41:13.480 none of them hang out at the same bar anymore. Uh. 0:41:14.000 --> 0:41:17.839 And then you start to see UM. And all through 0:41:17.880 --> 0:41:22.920 that time, the commitments to anti racism are eroded, so 0:41:22.960 --> 0:41:26.960 you'll see UM jobs get start to get segregated out 0:41:27.000 --> 0:41:29.960 inside it's like steel mills and things like that. But 0:41:30.080 --> 0:41:33.040 then you know there's also the rise of rank and 0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:37.000 file movements to push back. So UM. All the while 0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:40.400 we're talking about this, there's always workers who remember what 0:41:40.520 --> 0:41:43.440 these things were like and why, and the power that 0:41:43.480 --> 0:41:46.239 they used to have, and they would do the best 0:41:46.280 --> 0:41:48.960 that they could get organized. So UM. There's a really 0:41:49.000 --> 0:41:53.160 good UM documentary. You can find a YouTube called Finally 0:41:53.200 --> 0:41:57.160 got the news. It's about the Dodge Revolutionary Union movement 0:41:57.280 --> 0:42:02.080 in Detroit, which was a rank and file reform movement 0:42:03.000 --> 0:42:07.480 organized by UM by black auto workers. They got like 0:42:07.520 --> 0:42:10.240 a fair amount of support from white auto workers because 0:42:10.239 --> 0:42:13.840 they're basically there's you know, interviews with U a W. 0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:17.760 Bureaucrats and they're just like, you know, we're getting people 0:42:17.800 --> 0:42:20.200 these raises. Why are they upset that they're like getting 0:42:20.239 --> 0:42:23.120 named in the factory right, or why are they getting 0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:26.160 upset that you know, you know, black workers are constantly 0:42:26.160 --> 0:42:28.920 getting put into the shittiest jobs or the first to 0:42:28.960 --> 0:42:31.239 get laid off, that sort of thing. And that's a 0:42:31.440 --> 0:42:34.120 it's a really I suggest anyone has time. And that 0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:36.480 came out of like the I think that was immediately 0:42:36.520 --> 0:42:40.960 after the was getting organized after the assassination Martin Luther 0:42:41.120 --> 0:42:43.160 King and all the riots that were happening in the 0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:46.400 h in the sixties had like that late sixties period 0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:52.680 UM in the seventies, there was a teamster, the teamster 0:42:52.840 --> 0:42:56.520 rank and file rebellion. My grandpa was a team trucker, 0:42:58.120 --> 0:43:02.080 was a teamster. She was like a punch card operator. 0:43:02.320 --> 0:43:05.920 But yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean like teams at 0:43:06.040 --> 0:43:08.520 these unions got so big and they have kind that's 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:11.400 how you end up with like there's UAW teaching assistance 0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:13.759 now right, Um, Like how do you end up with 0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:18.640 these huge like uh unions? And during teams are rebellion 0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:21.480 And my grandpa would tell these stories like we're going on, 0:43:21.600 --> 0:43:23.400 there would be a wildcat strike and they call it 0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:26.200 out over the CB radios. And the way they would 0:43:26.280 --> 0:43:29.000 enforce the picket line wasn't just like oh, we're gonna 0:43:29.040 --> 0:43:30.759 like standing in the road or something. They would hang 0:43:32.000 --> 0:43:35.279 coke bottles full of rocks over the overpasses, just high 0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:38.120 enough up to like that cars have pass underneath them, 0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:39.720 but if you hit one and you were in a truck, 0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:44.440 it's funk up your day. Um. And that was like 0:43:44.480 --> 0:43:48.080 a really um like a really kind of like powerful 0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:51.520 pushback by breaking file workers against what they saw was 0:43:51.600 --> 0:43:55.319 the erosion of their power. Because I think that I 0:43:55.320 --> 0:43:58.600 think there's this sometimes amongst people who would cosider themselves 0:43:58.600 --> 0:44:00.560 to be left or whatever, there's like this kind of 0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:04.479 doom and gloom like, oh, it's only like we're only losing, right. 0:44:05.239 --> 0:44:08.280 But and there's been a lot of as the seventies happened, 0:44:08.360 --> 0:44:10.640 and capital is kind of reconfiguring itself in the middle 0:44:10.640 --> 0:44:14.719 of all the economic upheaval inflation. Um, basically, they got 0:44:14.719 --> 0:44:16.680 to the point where we can't maintain labor peace and 0:44:16.719 --> 0:44:20.960 maintain profits, right, so they could maintain labor peace and 0:44:21.000 --> 0:44:24.279 have something more like a socialist system, or they can 0:44:24.360 --> 0:44:27.800 maintain control over the work process and just do everything 0:44:27.800 --> 0:44:30.200 in their power to destroy the power of workers. And 0:44:30.239 --> 0:44:33.640 they decided to do that. UM. So I think we 0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:38.680 were coming out of this kind of era where you know, 0:44:38.800 --> 0:44:43.400 if you were in a union and working at a factory, um, 0:44:43.520 --> 0:44:45.600 there was a real threat that they're like, well, we're 0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:48.360 just going to shut this factory down and you know, 0:44:48.760 --> 0:44:51.239 not to get signed. Well, first it was the pet 0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:57.440 Go strike with Reagan. Reagan gets elected and air air 0:44:57.480 --> 0:45:02.280 traffic controllers decided they're going to go strike and um, 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:06.759 and they and Reagan decided he was going to break 0:45:06.760 --> 0:45:10.960 it and they brought in they Basically there was this 0:45:11.000 --> 0:45:13.600 bigger session. It was like this huge mess where people 0:45:13.600 --> 0:45:18.080 were really desperate for work, and UM, you know, they said, 0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:20.560 we're going to hire anyone to be an air traffic 0:45:20.600 --> 0:45:22.880 controller and we're gonna break the strike. And that was 0:45:22.960 --> 0:45:26.799 the first real the first like that. The beginning of 0:45:27.000 --> 0:45:30.240 the end of that final like that big moment era 0:45:30.320 --> 0:45:34.040 of industrial unionism in the United States. And we went 0:45:34.080 --> 0:45:37.320 from a place where you know, U a W had millions, 0:45:37.560 --> 0:45:40.360 the United Auto Workers had millions and millions of workers, 0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:41.960 and if you drove a car or a truck in 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:46.160 his main America was made by union worker to this 0:45:46.320 --> 0:45:49.680 point where now the U a W is around fifty people. 0:45:49.920 --> 0:45:51.879 I was shocked when I heard that, literally like two 0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:54.279 weeks ago. Um, you know, we just had the big 0:45:54.320 --> 0:45:57.680 U a W strike at John Dear Um. And there's 0:45:57.719 --> 0:46:00.600 been and you know, all through this while this is 0:46:00.600 --> 0:46:04.879 going on, Um, there's various union corruption scandals. And that's 0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:07.600 again the cause of like when you kick out all 0:46:07.600 --> 0:46:11.279 the people who have an ideological commitment to improving the 0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:13.960 lives of working people and building the power of working 0:46:13.960 --> 0:46:17.520 people out of this organization that's only existence is to 0:46:18.080 --> 0:46:22.440 like build the power of working people. Um, then you 0:46:23.320 --> 0:46:25.320 then you end up with people who are basically criminals, 0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:28.680 like you end up like there would be uh. I 0:46:28.719 --> 0:46:34.360 think Reagan scat like Ronald Reagan was h was a 0:46:34.480 --> 0:46:37.359 union member, but he was like the union member for 0:46:37.520 --> 0:46:40.440 like a corrupt like there was like there was like 0:46:40.680 --> 0:46:43.240 a battle between like the c I O controlled union 0:46:43.320 --> 0:46:46.160 in like Hollywood and like the corrupt like moss mobbed 0:46:46.200 --> 0:46:49.759 up union and the mobbed up union, like that was 0:46:49.800 --> 0:46:53.200 the side if I'm sure that that was a side 0:46:53.239 --> 0:46:57.319 that Reagan picked and uh and yeah, so it's like 0:46:57.360 --> 0:47:01.440 you could kind of and there was a lot of 0:47:01.480 --> 0:47:03.640 like media where they would be like you know, the 0:47:03.680 --> 0:47:07.440 waterfronts in various like movies and things talking about union corruption. 0:47:07.480 --> 0:47:09.359 And I think that union corruption is real, and it's 0:47:09.400 --> 0:47:11.719 a it's when it happens, it's a huge problem. It 0:47:11.719 --> 0:47:17.239 shouldn't like it's in other countries like in like in Germany, 0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:20.040 if they found out like a union union official like 0:47:20.080 --> 0:47:24.279 misappropriated like two thousand euros, it would be a nationwide 0:47:24.280 --> 0:47:30.040 scandal like um also in uh in like European countries, 0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:34.359 like you pay union dudes on a voluntary basis right 0:47:34.960 --> 0:47:38.120 in the US legally since we're a close shop system, 0:47:39.280 --> 0:47:44.640 like once you're at a union uh union workplace, your 0:47:44.680 --> 0:47:46.920 dudes get taken, whether you know whether you're happy with 0:47:46.960 --> 0:47:49.959 the union or not. Now there are people will say 0:47:50.080 --> 0:47:53.600 that's really important because unions need every penny they can 0:47:53.640 --> 0:47:56.480 to fight where they have. But when unions have to 0:47:56.560 --> 0:47:59.920 fight for membership and make sure that their membership knows 0:48:00.080 --> 0:48:03.000 that they're getting like what they're paying for. You get 0:48:03.000 --> 0:48:06.480 a little bit more responsiveness. So I think that's another 0:48:06.520 --> 0:48:08.960 thing that especially people are thinking about unions and thinking 0:48:08.960 --> 0:48:11.480 about joining a union are creating getting any of the workplace. 0:48:11.600 --> 0:48:15.400 Just understand what a union is and how they work 0:48:15.760 --> 0:48:18.480 and where your money is going to, and that if 0:48:18.480 --> 0:48:22.040 you're unhappy with that, the best thing to do is 0:48:22.120 --> 0:48:24.879 to get involved with your union, to try and like 0:48:25.040 --> 0:48:28.799 get connected with your coworkers who have similar complaints and 0:48:28.880 --> 0:48:32.200 change the union. Because there's a saying it's like any 0:48:32.280 --> 0:48:35.840 union is better than no union. That's not always true, 0:48:36.280 --> 0:48:40.839 but it generally is there there there's like a very 0:48:40.840 --> 0:48:44.080 small chance that like you're like living in nine nine 0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:47.600 China and like your union is like is controlled by 0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:49.640 like a commodation of the K and T and like 0:48:50.360 --> 0:48:54.399 literally the Chinese heroin trade. But you know that that like, yeah, 0:48:54.440 --> 0:49:01.959 that like doesn't like there there there are things where 0:49:02.000 --> 0:49:04.920 you'll have like they're my dad worked at a factory 0:49:04.920 --> 0:49:08.200 and there was it was a teamster organized factory and 0:49:08.360 --> 0:49:10.680 like some of the stewards were bullies and literally like 0:49:10.719 --> 0:49:12.719 there were some people who were dealing drugs out of it, 0:49:13.360 --> 0:49:20.000 and they gave the the workers like try to bring 0:49:20.040 --> 0:49:23.840 in another union, and the and the management decided to 0:49:24.120 --> 0:49:27.759 offer to also try and desertify de certify the union 0:49:27.800 --> 0:49:31.400 at the same time, and the workers voted to desert. 0:49:31.719 --> 0:49:35.879 And the thing is is that now that factory shut 0:49:35.920 --> 0:49:38.279 down and gone. Um, And I guess, like the thing 0:49:38.320 --> 0:49:41.680 is is that you have to it's far better for 0:49:41.800 --> 0:49:44.719 workers to assert their rights within their union where they 0:49:44.760 --> 0:49:47.520 have some modicum of democratic control over what's going on 0:49:48.000 --> 0:49:50.080 than it is to just throw up your hands and 0:49:50.239 --> 0:49:53.200 like there's and do nothing. Because if you do nothing, 0:49:53.239 --> 0:49:56.160 the boss is always doing something. Yeah, Like that's the 0:49:56.160 --> 0:49:59.759 thing is, like management is always organizing. They're always coming 0:49:59.840 --> 0:50:04.520 up with ways to like to undermine the control of 0:50:04.520 --> 0:50:09.680 workers at work, to pitt people against each other. Um, 0:50:09.760 --> 0:50:12.719 we can get into it later, but like, uh, they want, 0:50:12.840 --> 0:50:16.080 they'll use racism and those sorts of things to dole 0:50:16.120 --> 0:50:19.120 out favors or curry favoritism and like you know, pitt 0:50:19.200 --> 0:50:22.480 people against each other. So I think that it's important 0:50:22.520 --> 0:50:25.920 to just say that, like the union is going to 0:50:25.960 --> 0:50:29.560 be your only effective way to push back. Well, the 0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:32.319 union or collective action, because I guess I also want 0:50:32.320 --> 0:50:34.839 to say that there are times when organizing union isn't 0:50:34.880 --> 0:50:37.280 the best solution to solving your problem at work. Ultimately, 0:50:37.280 --> 0:50:39.359 this is all about how do you solve problems at 0:50:39.360 --> 0:50:42.320 work right? And they're sometimes when you can do collective 0:50:42.360 --> 0:50:47.880 action that is protected as you know as labor organizing, 0:50:47.960 --> 0:50:51.080 but it's not done within a union and so and 0:50:51.200 --> 0:50:53.480 because America is the really best of place and you 0:50:53.920 --> 0:50:56.479 have right to work states and places where like being 0:50:56.480 --> 0:51:01.280 in a union is like literally illegal. Um sometimes putting 0:51:01.280 --> 0:51:03.600 the time, you're like you can't get into a union 0:51:03.880 --> 0:51:05.840 and therefore you have to come up with other solutions. 0:51:06.520 --> 0:51:10.680 Or sometimes because the nature of a workplace, like getting 0:51:10.880 --> 0:51:14.279 a union is like it is very hard or like 0:51:14.880 --> 0:51:18.400 basically impossible, that doesn't mean that you can't organize. And 0:51:18.440 --> 0:51:20.400 I think that that's the thing that everyone needs to understand. 0:51:20.440 --> 0:51:23.240 I think there's a lot of like boosterism of unions 0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:26.759 amongst younger workers because people just don't understand how they 0:51:26.800 --> 0:51:30.680 work or they haven't experienced in themselves. And I think 0:51:30.680 --> 0:51:32.480 that the main thing is is that you've got to 0:51:32.520 --> 0:51:37.040 be very careful with your time and understanding, like building 0:51:37.080 --> 0:51:40.200 a union can take like ten years from the beginning 0:51:40.239 --> 0:51:44.960 of we're upset to now we have a collective bargaining agreement, 0:51:45.760 --> 0:51:48.920 or now we have a collective bargaining agreement. It could 0:51:48.960 --> 0:51:50.759 be another five or ten years before you actually get 0:51:50.760 --> 0:51:52.600 to the point where you're organized enough to go on strike. 0:51:53.040 --> 0:51:59.239 And people oftentimes think that that's like they look back 0:51:59.280 --> 0:52:01.239 at the history of things and they're like, oh, it's 0:52:01.280 --> 0:52:05.120 so easy. But back then people were taking all they 0:52:05.120 --> 0:52:07.240 mean they it took them years to build the the 0:52:07.360 --> 0:52:09.359 US labor movement into what it was at its peak. 0:52:09.560 --> 0:52:12.520 It took decades, right, And I think that we are 0:52:12.800 --> 0:52:15.320 kind of used to this instant gratification kind of stuff. 0:52:15.440 --> 0:52:18.040 We have to understand that it's like, if you're going 0:52:18.080 --> 0:52:22.040 to be in a workplace where you're there for enough 0:52:22.080 --> 0:52:25.600 time to build the trust and relationships and understanding of 0:52:25.600 --> 0:52:29.680 how the work workplace works and keep your job and 0:52:29.760 --> 0:52:31.920 be someone that people don't look at as like a 0:52:32.000 --> 0:52:34.759 shirk or whatever. Not that I don't think that people 0:52:34.800 --> 0:52:37.480 should you know, people should work as hard as they 0:52:37.520 --> 0:52:43.280 can and not any more harder than that, but whatever. Um, 0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:46.080 but I think that you know, I'm anti work, but 0:52:46.120 --> 0:52:48.080 you know that's the whole other thing. Unions are the 0:52:48.120 --> 0:52:49.640 best way to limit the amount of work that you 0:52:49.680 --> 0:52:53.520 have to do um if you're gonna if you're going 0:52:53.560 --> 0:52:56.839 to uh, you know, work as a wage labor um. 0:52:56.880 --> 0:52:59.120 But I will just say that it's like I think 0:52:59.160 --> 0:53:03.600 that people don't that. It's difficult sometimes to understand how 0:53:03.680 --> 0:53:06.160 much work goes into getting to the point of getting 0:53:06.160 --> 0:53:10.000 a union, but it's always worth putting the time in 0:53:10.080 --> 0:53:13.520 to get there. And you may not win the first try, 0:53:14.120 --> 0:53:17.440 but if you are, if if the conditions are right, 0:53:17.520 --> 0:53:19.440 and things like, you know, we make our history, but 0:53:19.480 --> 0:53:22.080 not in conditions of our choosing. Sometimes things don't work out, 0:53:22.840 --> 0:53:28.880 but not doing it is I think a it's detrimental 0:53:28.920 --> 0:53:31.440 to you and your co workers. And even times like 0:53:31.480 --> 0:53:33.560 I've talked with people who have been involved in campaigns 0:53:34.719 --> 0:53:37.720 where they got fired but then all of a sudden, 0:53:37.760 --> 0:53:41.080 conditions improved afterwards, and they look at that as like, oh, ship, 0:53:41.160 --> 0:53:44.000 we didn't get our union, but everyone got raises and 0:53:44.160 --> 0:53:46.960 they change some things that work, and that's actually a victory. 0:53:47.080 --> 0:53:50.200 So you know, I think that I think of each 0:53:50.239 --> 0:53:54.680 other as like collective building collective power, and the amount 0:53:54.719 --> 0:53:57.960 of time it takes to do that is daunting, but 0:53:58.040 --> 0:53:59.319 I think it's the sort of thing that we need 0:53:59.400 --> 0:54:03.439 to do if first serious about changing how we can 0:54:04.320 --> 0:54:07.840 actually like how our lives work and how much power 0:54:07.920 --> 0:54:10.520 we have outside of work, because unions are also places 0:54:10.520 --> 0:54:13.799 where we do things that affect outside of our work 0:54:13.840 --> 0:54:30.560 as well. I'm Colleen with Join me, the host of 0:54:30.640 --> 0:54:33.640 Eating Will Broke podcast While I eat a meal created 0:54:33.640 --> 0:54:37.680 by self made entrepreneurs, influencers, and celebrities over a meal 0:54:37.719 --> 0:54:39.880 they once ate when they were broke. Today I have 0:54:39.960 --> 0:54:44.480 the lovely aj Crimson, the official Princess of compon Asia 0:54:44.760 --> 0:54:47.520 Kidding and Assia. This is the professor. We're here on 0:54:47.600 --> 0:54:50.600 Eating While Broke, and today I'm gonna break down my 0:54:50.719 --> 0:54:53.040 meal that got me through a time when I was broken. 0:54:53.440 --> 0:54:56.200 Listen to Eating While Broke on the I Heart Radio app, 0:54:56.320 --> 0:54:59.680 on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. 0:55:00.160 --> 0:55:03.479 I'm Robert sex Reese, host of The Doctor sex Rees Show. 0:55:03.920 --> 0:55:06.920 And every episode I listened to people talk about their 0:55:06.960 --> 0:55:10.840 sex and intimacy issues and yes, I despise every minute 0:55:10.840 --> 0:55:14.480 of it. And she she made mistakes too, she did 0:55:14.480 --> 0:55:16.959 she kill everyone at her wedding. But hell is real. 0:55:17.239 --> 0:55:19.960 We're all trapped here and there's nothing any of us 0:55:20.000 --> 0:55:22.880 can do about it. So join me. Won't you listen 0:55:22.920 --> 0:55:25.440 to the Doctors Sex re Show every Tuesday on the 0:55:25.480 --> 0:55:28.640 I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get 0:55:28.680 --> 0:55:40.760 your podcast. UM, George Slade Uprising. You know, in Minneapolis, 0:55:40.840 --> 0:55:44.040 there were nurses union nurses who walked out the door 0:55:44.920 --> 0:55:49.840 um to support uh, you know, people who were uh 0:55:50.160 --> 0:55:54.800 basically having an insurrection against like, you know, police violence 0:55:54.800 --> 0:56:02.160 in in Minneapolis when the WHENVID pandemic hit off, year 0:56:02.200 --> 0:56:06.120 of everything going off, nurses nurses were going out and 0:56:06.200 --> 0:56:10.080 confronting uh. Union nurses were going out and confronting anti 0:56:10.120 --> 0:56:12.799 mass protesters. Like I was literally getting screamed at by 0:56:12.880 --> 0:56:16.279 like some Looney Tunes doctor holding a banner that said 0:56:16.360 --> 0:56:19.800 nurses are dying. Go home with like twenty other union nurses. 0:56:20.520 --> 0:56:22.120 And we were the only people out there who are 0:56:22.160 --> 0:56:26.640 like together, who are you know, immediately impacted by this stuff? 0:56:27.400 --> 0:56:29.759 And UM, and I think it made a difference, Like 0:56:29.800 --> 0:56:32.600 I think it's important, and so I think that UM. 0:56:32.600 --> 0:56:35.160 And there's some idea called social unionism. So if you 0:56:35.560 --> 0:56:38.520 get to the point where building a union and you're 0:56:38.560 --> 0:56:40.279 making progress, and you get to that point where you 0:56:40.320 --> 0:56:43.840 have a union always be advocating for to the extent 0:56:43.880 --> 0:56:45.920 that you can that your union is engaged in the 0:56:46.040 --> 0:56:50.880 kind of UM like connecting with your community around your workplace, 0:56:51.800 --> 0:56:55.880 figuring out the things that are impacting people's lives outside 0:56:55.880 --> 0:56:59.160 of unions, because I think that's another thing that UM 0:56:59.200 --> 0:57:02.320 For a long time, unions just ignored or let atrophy 0:57:02.320 --> 0:57:04.600 because they didn't think it was their problem anymore. Was 0:57:05.080 --> 0:57:09.360 you know, mutual aid helped build the labor movement. You know, 0:57:09.480 --> 0:57:13.560 workers would get would literally like in West Virginia and 0:57:13.680 --> 0:57:19.560 matuan uh they had uh company police throwing people out 0:57:19.600 --> 0:57:24.280 of their apartments who are on strike, and the there 0:57:24.320 --> 0:57:26.440 were you know, all of a sudden, two thousand of 0:57:26.440 --> 0:57:29.680 your fellow workers showing up and throwing the police out 0:57:29.680 --> 0:57:32.920 of town and putting people's uh, you know, belongings back 0:57:32.920 --> 0:57:36.400 in their house or you know. And I believe we're 0:57:36.440 --> 0:57:38.880 getting back to that point where you know, teachers went 0:57:38.880 --> 0:57:43.040 on striking West Virginia and the union and the teachers 0:57:43.200 --> 0:57:46.320 did everything they could to support their students while they 0:57:46.320 --> 0:57:49.919 were out. Because like, I think there's this idea that 0:57:52.360 --> 0:57:57.240 a lot of union workers at this point are you know, 0:57:57.320 --> 0:58:00.760 everyone is like, you know, the American workforces so desperate 0:58:00.800 --> 0:58:04.360 and so and they've just been pushed around so much 0:58:04.840 --> 0:58:07.480 that you know, there was this idea for a time 0:58:07.640 --> 0:58:11.960 like in Wisconsin, what was or what was the Scott 0:58:11.960 --> 0:58:15.720 Walker was constant uprising just Elen, wasn't it? I think 0:58:15.720 --> 0:58:18.960 it was like right around occupy it was around there, 0:58:19.120 --> 0:58:21.880 and like there was this idea that's like, oh, you're 0:58:21.920 --> 0:58:24.080 a nurse, Oh you're a teacher, Like you should just 0:58:24.080 --> 0:58:26.520 be happy that your job has some kind of meaning 0:58:26.560 --> 0:58:28.960 to it, right, And it was a lot of like 0:58:29.040 --> 0:58:34.600 weird discourse around in the media and about like how 0:58:34.680 --> 0:58:38.840 dare these people? I think that they deserve anything? And 0:58:38.920 --> 0:58:42.160 the thing is is that how can you, like, as 0:58:42.200 --> 0:58:44.800 a nurse, how can I take care of my patients 0:58:45.760 --> 0:58:51.280 safely when I'm constantly having um like more and more 0:58:51.320 --> 0:58:54.480 work put on me, right, and that that immediately affects 0:58:54.560 --> 0:58:56.320 the people that I'm taken care of. So that when 0:58:56.560 --> 0:58:59.280 when we went on strike in twenty nineteen, it was 0:58:59.280 --> 0:59:05.440 around our safes laffing. UM. And if I've seen management 0:59:05.440 --> 0:59:10.040 make decisions about staffing that kill people, and I've seen 0:59:10.120 --> 0:59:13.720 management make decisions that lead to my co workers getting injured, um, 0:59:13.760 --> 0:59:17.200 I management made decisions that led to me getting uh 0:59:17.600 --> 0:59:21.360 COVID and messed me up for a year. And uh 0:59:21.520 --> 0:59:25.040 so when people in these kind of care worker roles, 0:59:25.080 --> 0:59:27.280 which I think has become a more prominent part of 0:59:27.320 --> 0:59:30.960 the US economy as people are getting older and they 0:59:30.960 --> 0:59:35.360 need more like care work, home care workers, nursing home workers, 0:59:35.840 --> 0:59:40.600 hospital workers. UM. Parents don't can't rely on family the 0:59:40.640 --> 0:59:43.280 way they used to help take care kids. School has 0:59:43.360 --> 0:59:49.000 become like this really important like uh institution for you know, 0:59:49.160 --> 0:59:53.880 working class survival. UM that you can't do those jobs 0:59:53.880 --> 0:59:56.040 as a worker if you don't have the resources. So 0:59:56.080 --> 1:00:00.000 like our our children were at the Chicago Public School 1:00:00.240 --> 1:00:04.960 and there that you know, the Chicago Teachers Union, which 1:00:05.280 --> 1:00:07.840 was taken over by the rank and file UM, I 1:00:07.880 --> 1:00:11.360 think in two thousand five or six by you know, 1:00:11.560 --> 1:00:15.560 a group of black women led by Karen Lewis. They 1:00:15.600 --> 1:00:18.120 set up a group called like a rank and file 1:00:18.200 --> 1:00:24.720 caucus called the Caucus of Rank and File Educators or 1:00:24.880 --> 1:00:28.120 Radical Educators. CORES might be messing on that, but it's 1:00:28.120 --> 1:00:34.000 called CORE. They went out on striking and as a 1:00:34.280 --> 1:00:36.400 you know, as just this was before my kids were 1:00:36.400 --> 1:00:37.920 old not to be in those schools. I was out 1:00:37.920 --> 1:00:41.280 there still taking them coffee donuts, right, because I knew 1:00:41.280 --> 1:00:44.640 that they were in there. Because things stuck. By the 1:00:44.680 --> 1:00:47.320 time my kids were old enough in nineteen for it 1:00:47.360 --> 1:00:49.280 to be a big thing and the teachers went on 1:00:49.360 --> 1:00:52.760 strike in Chicago, it had gotten so it's so bad 1:00:53.120 --> 1:00:58.760 that Chicago teachers, like Chicago Public schools have the the 1:00:58.840 --> 1:01:03.160 lowest number of staff of two students of any school 1:01:03.200 --> 1:01:09.040 system in Illinois. It's not even like half right and um, 1:01:09.080 --> 1:01:12.400 And it's funny because the state have been constantly trying 1:01:12.400 --> 1:01:16.080 to erode the power of the union. They're making Chicago 1:01:16.240 --> 1:01:19.320 teachers like pay their for their own retirement basically in 1:01:19.360 --> 1:01:22.800 a way that no other like workers have to. Um. 1:01:23.000 --> 1:01:26.080 They were making it so that Chicago teachers could only 1:01:26.120 --> 1:01:31.440 go on strike. Over of the teachers voted to go 1:01:31.480 --> 1:01:35.440 on strike. Um. So when so what that does is 1:01:35.560 --> 1:01:37.440 there's kind of like a a little bit of a 1:01:37.440 --> 1:01:41.960 flip where oh, we have to make of you know, 1:01:42.120 --> 1:01:44.960 people agree to go on strike. Well, let's organize so 1:01:45.040 --> 1:01:48.320 much that we get people to agree to go on strike, 1:01:48.360 --> 1:01:50.760 and then how powerful is our strikes, our strikes going 1:01:50.800 --> 1:01:53.840 to be. We're literally like one of the things I 1:01:53.880 --> 1:01:56.680 do as a steward is I connect with all the 1:01:56.680 --> 1:02:00.440 different unions and at the University of Chicago at work 1:02:01.080 --> 1:02:04.080 through a labor council. We were going, as you know, 1:02:04.240 --> 1:02:07.640 university workers to all the picket lines of the public 1:02:07.640 --> 1:02:11.120 schools around our neighborhood and we're bringing out coffee, bringing 1:02:11.120 --> 1:02:13.320 out donuts, talking to people. Hey, I'm a nurse. We 1:02:13.320 --> 1:02:15.680 were on strike like six or like two or three 1:02:15.680 --> 1:02:19.160 months ago. What do you all need? Connecting with people? 1:02:19.280 --> 1:02:23.040 And then and then like at one point when the 1:02:23.080 --> 1:02:25.720 teachers were like, we're not getting what we want and 1:02:25.800 --> 1:02:32.760 this is LORI lightfoot is trash there, uh, we helped 1:02:32.920 --> 1:02:37.000 organize this mass march where multiple marches of teachers and 1:02:37.240 --> 1:02:41.240 school workers and we're all out in the streets dodging 1:02:41.280 --> 1:02:44.240 cop cars until we have this big convergence. And it 1:02:44.320 --> 1:02:46.760 was really beautiful. Like we had like multiple people with 1:02:46.840 --> 1:02:49.800 like multiple banners and different columns, each one saying we 1:02:49.840 --> 1:02:53.120 will win, going through the streets of our neighborhood. UM 1:02:53.200 --> 1:02:58.680 and like messing up like the commercial traffic area in 1:02:58.480 --> 1:03:01.520 uh in our very bougie neighborhood and um. But that 1:03:01.600 --> 1:03:03.320 was happening all over the city and it's just like 1:03:03.440 --> 1:03:06.920 when you see that happen it's because we're literally in 1:03:07.000 --> 1:03:10.080 the support of the community for those strikes was so 1:03:10.120 --> 1:03:14.040 overwhelming because people knew that. It's like these people, aren't it. 1:03:14.080 --> 1:03:18.120 I mean, like, first off, it's a hard job. There's 1:03:18.120 --> 1:03:20.640 no reason why anyone doing that job shouldn't have like 1:03:20.680 --> 1:03:24.200 a materially comfortable life. That's how stressful it is and 1:03:24.200 --> 1:03:27.440 how much work they do. And I really, like, I 1:03:27.480 --> 1:03:29.600 really need to emphasize this enough people. There's like this 1:03:29.640 --> 1:03:31.880 whole thing is like, oh, teachers don't work over the summer, Like, 1:03:31.880 --> 1:03:36.680 oh but no, no, Like their job sucks. They have 1:03:36.720 --> 1:03:38.280 to they have to deal these kids all day. And 1:03:38.280 --> 1:03:39.840 the other thing is like you know, the part of 1:03:39.880 --> 1:03:40.960 it that you don't see is they have to do 1:03:41.000 --> 1:03:42.640 all the lessed plans. They have to great all the stuff, 1:03:42.640 --> 1:03:44.360 have to do all this stuff like after the school 1:03:44.400 --> 1:03:46.560 day end, they have to do all this honestibly, all 1:03:46.560 --> 1:03:49.360 the time. This job is awful. It is extremely hard, 1:03:49.560 --> 1:03:54.320 and like they don't Yeah, the conditions are extremely bad. 1:03:55.600 --> 1:03:58.280 I'll never forget when I'll never forget when I ran 1:03:58.320 --> 1:04:01.120 into my seventh grade science teacher on the summer she 1:04:01.240 --> 1:04:04.760 was waiting tables at a local restaurant. You know, I 1:04:04.760 --> 1:04:08.120 mean and so I think that there's this assumption that like, uh, 1:04:08.320 --> 1:04:12.080 that especially care workers get some sort of you can't 1:04:12.160 --> 1:04:15.000 you know, you can't cash in fulfillment right or prestige 1:04:15.080 --> 1:04:17.919 or whatever that doesn't pay the rent, that doesn't put 1:04:17.960 --> 1:04:20.760 you know, groceries on your table um that sort of thing. 1:04:20.920 --> 1:04:24.000 And so, you know, I think we're beginning to see 1:04:24.000 --> 1:04:27.920 this thing resurgence. And it started with teachers and I 1:04:28.000 --> 1:04:32.200 know for and teachers and nurses have been out fighting 1:04:32.640 --> 1:04:36.160 like hell for the past like five years, and it's 1:04:36.560 --> 1:04:40.040 beginning to kind of like spark other kinds of organizing 1:04:40.120 --> 1:04:44.080 outside of outside of the care work areas, and a 1:04:44.080 --> 1:04:45.760 lot of this stuff was It's funny how it was 1:04:45.840 --> 1:04:49.360 kind of like predicted by occupy and like revolt of 1:04:49.400 --> 1:04:52.560 the carrying classes. Someone who wrote a really cool book 1:04:52.560 --> 1:04:54.760 that just came out, David Graber, who was talking about like, 1:04:54.800 --> 1:04:57.840 why is it that we're seeing all these people who 1:04:57.840 --> 1:05:00.920 are out in the streets like during occupy, who are 1:05:00.960 --> 1:05:04.400 like social workers and nurses and teachers and all this stuff. 1:05:04.720 --> 1:05:08.200 There there's something going on here, and I think that 1:05:09.000 --> 1:05:14.000 so you'll see places where organizing conditions are easier because 1:05:14.080 --> 1:05:17.920 the pressure on especially care workers right now is immense 1:05:18.080 --> 1:05:20.200 in a way that it isn't as immense other places. 1:05:20.960 --> 1:05:24.320 But look at for those like when you're thinking about 1:05:24.480 --> 1:05:27.520 unions and whether to do build a union at your 1:05:27.560 --> 1:05:30.720 workplace or do some sort of collective organizing your workplace, 1:05:31.600 --> 1:05:35.240 do you have the dynamics where you guys are can 1:05:35.280 --> 1:05:40.680 the boss shut down your uh, your your workplace and 1:05:40.720 --> 1:05:44.040 move it like ten miles without completely destroying their like 1:05:44.200 --> 1:05:48.000 their business, right And so you know, we've seen strikes 1:05:48.240 --> 1:05:55.480 happen in grocery stores, um and uh Massachusetts there was 1:05:55.520 --> 1:06:00.680 a really like uh, pretty well publicized grocery strike and 1:06:00.720 --> 1:06:03.920 apparently there was like internal documents got released to like 1:06:03.960 --> 1:06:06.120 shareholders about how that was like one of the most 1:06:06.160 --> 1:06:07.520 like it was like for a month in the winter 1:06:07.600 --> 1:06:12.000 or three weeks, and they said they lost like of 1:06:12.080 --> 1:06:16.280 customers refused across the picket line. I mean, and I 1:06:16.280 --> 1:06:19.439 think we're thinking it's like getting to the point where 1:06:19.440 --> 1:06:21.360 you can go on strike, it's a lot, it's a 1:06:21.400 --> 1:06:23.000 process and it takes a lot of work, and I 1:06:23.040 --> 1:06:26.400 think that people underestimate what that looks like. Hence we 1:06:26.440 --> 1:06:32.000 see hashtag general strike things all the time. Um, But 1:06:32.440 --> 1:06:34.480 like when you get there, I think that we're at 1:06:34.480 --> 1:06:36.640 a point now where people have a lot more sympathy 1:06:36.680 --> 1:06:39.120 for workers, and workers have become more visible in a 1:06:39.200 --> 1:06:43.640 way that they weren't before. Like the essential workers over 1:06:43.680 --> 1:06:45.440 the past year and a half have been the only 1:06:45.440 --> 1:06:49.040 workers that sometimes people will see, right, so you'll see 1:06:49.040 --> 1:06:52.920 things also like you have you know, Amazonians United, which 1:06:53.000 --> 1:06:57.600 is a union that's organizing, but they're trying to organize 1:06:57.600 --> 1:07:00.320 something called a solidarity union. So they're not you know, 1:07:00.440 --> 1:07:02.240 at least the ones here in Chicago, and I think 1:07:02.280 --> 1:07:05.320 some of them in New York. And this may be changing. 1:07:05.520 --> 1:07:07.720 Things are always shifting around, but for a long for 1:07:07.800 --> 1:07:11.360 a while, through like the pandemic, they were organizing on 1:07:11.440 --> 1:07:16.520 a like in contrast to the best sumer uh Amazon campaign. Sorry, 1:07:16.800 --> 1:07:22.120 there was a a business union tried to organize a 1:07:22.240 --> 1:07:27.480 union in Alabama, Investment Alabama at an Amazon warehouse, and 1:07:28.160 --> 1:07:31.120 there was a lot of like media attention to that. 1:07:31.400 --> 1:07:35.200 Democratic politicians were paying attention to it. Joe Biden said, 1:07:35.240 --> 1:07:37.760 I support the right of workers to choose to have 1:07:37.800 --> 1:07:42.000 the choice. Stabby union some really milk toast bullshit and 1:07:42.040 --> 1:07:46.160 a lot of celebrities showing up and what wasn't happening 1:07:47.240 --> 1:07:49.400 was you weren't seeing a lot of evidence that the 1:07:49.440 --> 1:07:53.640 workers themselves were very excited about the union, and it 1:07:53.680 --> 1:07:58.840 turned out that that campaign failed. UM, whereas workers at 1:07:58.880 --> 1:08:01.680 Amazonians united up here, like in Chicago, and granted it's 1:08:01.680 --> 1:08:04.480 a very different organizing environment in Illinois than it is 1:08:04.480 --> 1:08:08.920 in Alabama, UM, they haven't been focusing on getting contract. 1:08:08.960 --> 1:08:11.120 They've been focusing on getting work changes. Like they're like, 1:08:12.000 --> 1:08:15.400 we want to have water, like we need water breaks, 1:08:16.240 --> 1:08:18.360 and so they would they have these stand up meetings 1:08:18.400 --> 1:08:21.400 at the beginning of every shift, and they had coordinated 1:08:21.520 --> 1:08:24.479 where you have, you know, thirty of your coworkers all 1:08:24.520 --> 1:08:28.200 say we're not starting until we get water, and then 1:08:28.800 --> 1:08:31.839 management panics because they're not used to that kind of demand. 1:08:32.000 --> 1:08:35.439 They're used to We're going to have a campaign. Then 1:08:35.640 --> 1:08:37.679 we can you know, mess with votes and that sort 1:08:37.680 --> 1:08:43.519 of thing and make people afraid. Collective action overcomes fear, right, 1:08:44.040 --> 1:08:47.839 So when you have collective action, even through a regular 1:08:48.160 --> 1:08:53.200 like a more regular conventional union campaign, those collective actions 1:08:53.200 --> 1:08:56.760 are what leads to successful unions. So like UM, so 1:08:56.920 --> 1:08:59.320 you know, they'd say we aren't starting the shift until 1:08:59.320 --> 1:09:01.240 we get water, and then all of a sudden, a 1:09:01.280 --> 1:09:04.960 manager disappears and then comes back with palates full of water, right, 1:09:05.400 --> 1:09:06.800 and all of a sudden, people are like, I'm gonna 1:09:06.800 --> 1:09:09.200 have a drink water before I start like all together. 1:09:09.280 --> 1:09:11.120 And then they go off and do their thing, and 1:09:11.160 --> 1:09:14.679 it's like, you know, things like that build the power 1:09:14.800 --> 1:09:17.679 of the union to the point where they shut down 1:09:18.160 --> 1:09:21.719 that warehouse. But then Amazonian United popped up in the 1:09:21.760 --> 1:09:26.240 three new warehouses that they stuff in Chicago. So it's 1:09:26.280 --> 1:09:29.120 like when you build that kind of collective power and 1:09:29.240 --> 1:09:33.240 people feel like this is how you get things, then 1:09:33.479 --> 1:09:36.640 it's hard to repress. Right. It's one thing where like 1:09:37.040 --> 1:09:40.479 we lost an election, why did we even bother? It's 1:09:40.479 --> 1:09:42.760 another thing where like, no, we wont like all this 1:09:42.880 --> 1:09:44.559 like this, that, and the other thing like we got 1:09:44.600 --> 1:09:46.840 you know, like our regular schedules fixed, We got like 1:09:46.920 --> 1:09:49.800 water on our ships. We got this. You know. That's 1:09:49.840 --> 1:09:53.200 what gets people into the mindset that they can change. 1:09:53.240 --> 1:09:54.519 And so I think this is the thing that a 1:09:54.560 --> 1:09:57.160 lot of people don't get. It's it's like, the difficult 1:09:57.200 --> 1:09:59.960 part isn't getting people to agree that things are fun 1:10:00.120 --> 1:10:03.080 up at your workplace. Most people understand that things are 1:10:03.080 --> 1:10:06.599 sucked up in their workplace. Difficult part isn't saying that, like, well, 1:10:06.640 --> 1:10:09.599 this is a solution, right. The difficult part is getting 1:10:09.640 --> 1:10:13.120 people to understand that collective action is the only way 1:10:13.160 --> 1:10:17.160 to solve the problems, right even within unionized workplaces. Getting 1:10:17.160 --> 1:10:19.800 your coworkers to understand that if we don't do this 1:10:19.880 --> 1:10:23.760 as a collective we will fail. And so like when 1:10:24.600 --> 1:10:32.360 there was a like the first successful private hospital union 1:10:32.439 --> 1:10:39.640 drive in North Carolina popped off early. Um, throughout that campaign, 1:10:39.840 --> 1:10:45.040 they were constantly like demonstrations of collective power. We're gonna 1:10:45.080 --> 1:10:46.840 do a vigil. How many people are gonn show up 1:10:46.880 --> 1:10:48.920 to the visual We're gonna all walk around stickers saying 1:10:48.960 --> 1:10:53.680 like safe staffing saves lives or like you know, um, 1:10:54.160 --> 1:10:56.760 patients over profits. That sort of stuff, and building that 1:10:56.840 --> 1:11:01.120 kind of collective power together is what it's you. Um, 1:11:01.160 --> 1:11:05.519 it's what gets you a successful Like that's what builds 1:11:05.560 --> 1:11:09.599 a union. Fundamentally, union is um, there's the legal thing 1:11:09.680 --> 1:11:11.519 and then there's the real thing. And the real thing 1:11:11.720 --> 1:11:14.800 is only as powerful as people are willing to fight 1:11:14.840 --> 1:11:18.519 for and build that kind of collective power together. When 1:11:18.640 --> 1:11:20.240 nurses were on straight and I talked a lot about 1:11:20.320 --> 1:11:22.160 nurses because I know a lot about nurses, but like 1:11:22.280 --> 1:11:25.080 you know, or like you know in um In, Iowa, 1:11:25.240 --> 1:11:29.000 when the John Deere strike happened, people were out on 1:11:29.040 --> 1:11:31.040 the picket lines and people were ready to get hit 1:11:31.080 --> 1:11:34.479 by cars to like stop scabs from coming like crossing 1:11:34.479 --> 1:11:36.680 the picket line. And if you're not willing to do 1:11:36.720 --> 1:11:38.160 that kind of stuff. And I'm not saying that you 1:11:38.200 --> 1:11:39.800 need to put your body on the line for things, 1:11:39.880 --> 1:11:42.799 but you do need to be willing to draw outside 1:11:42.840 --> 1:11:45.680 the lines. Right, there's the law and then there's what 1:11:45.760 --> 1:11:48.519 you can get people to do. And you will be 1:11:48.600 --> 1:11:51.639 surprised when people start moving. They move fast, and they 1:11:51.640 --> 1:11:54.519 get really riled up, like this, funk this, this is 1:11:54.560 --> 1:11:58.160 what we're gonna do. And sometimes unions try and like 1:11:58.479 --> 1:12:02.360 bottle that energy up um or you know, if you're 1:12:02.400 --> 1:12:05.599 in a good union, you use that energy to fix things. 1:12:05.800 --> 1:12:09.320 So I think that's kind of where land on all 1:12:09.320 --> 1:12:12.880 this stuff. It's like be aware of like the pitfalls 1:12:12.960 --> 1:12:16.599 of what organizing at work means. Everyone has the right 1:12:16.640 --> 1:12:19.519 to organize at work everywhere in this country. If you 1:12:19.560 --> 1:12:23.000 get fired for like for organizing, you can fight that 1:12:23.000 --> 1:12:25.879 that sort of thing. Yeah, it is, it's federally protected, 1:12:26.080 --> 1:12:27.920 Like it's this is this is a federal government thing 1:12:28.080 --> 1:12:29.479 like you know, this is this is this is what 1:12:29.520 --> 1:12:32.160 we got in exchange for everything else is like like 1:12:32.240 --> 1:12:34.439 this is you know, like this this is what we 1:12:34.479 --> 1:12:37.360 got in exchange of putting our guns down. Is that like, yeah, 1:12:37.479 --> 1:12:42.439 the the the actual Feds will be like, no, you 1:12:42.520 --> 1:12:47.320 can't do this. Yeah, I mean, and sometimes that doesn't 1:12:47.320 --> 1:12:52.880 sound fold constellation and it doesn't always work. But and 1:12:52.920 --> 1:12:54.120 I guess this is the other thing is there are 1:12:54.120 --> 1:12:56.640 people who are like, this is how we're gonna, you know, 1:12:56.880 --> 1:13:00.880 we're gonna when socialism is everyone's any union. And I guess, 1:13:00.880 --> 1:13:03.120 like my take on it is is this is how 1:13:03.160 --> 1:13:06.240 we build all the networks and get the skills and 1:13:06.280 --> 1:13:10.200 all the necessary things to be prepared to do bigger 1:13:10.240 --> 1:13:15.400 stuff down the road. So when we when workers are 1:13:15.439 --> 1:13:18.639 talking to each other across like you know, at when Chicago, 1:13:18.800 --> 1:13:21.600 when Chicago teachers went on strike, they didn't just go 1:13:21.640 --> 1:13:24.640 on strike as the teachers. They also talked to the 1:13:24.640 --> 1:13:26.439 They lined up their strike to go out as the 1:13:26.479 --> 1:13:29.439 same as education like the school workers who are in 1:13:29.640 --> 1:13:31.479 s c I you, and they went out at the 1:13:31.520 --> 1:13:36.200 same time. Um in order to incre improve the power 1:13:36.240 --> 1:13:38.360 of the strike because the more workers who are out 1:13:38.680 --> 1:13:43.120 less able the bosses are to like like to undermine 1:13:43.120 --> 1:13:46.160 the boss either with people scabbing on each other or whatever. 1:13:46.240 --> 1:13:48.720 And I think it's just like and like that's the 1:13:48.760 --> 1:13:51.720 point of our labor council is Like when like the 1:13:51.760 --> 1:13:55.320 grad workers at Universe Chicago go on strike, we got 1:13:55.360 --> 1:13:58.320 teachers out or we got well, there were teachers from 1:13:58.360 --> 1:14:01.120 CTU out on those picket lines. There were nurses or 1:14:01.400 --> 1:14:03.519 a new on those picket lines, and we were doing 1:14:03.560 --> 1:14:07.720 everything we could to communicate to each other because like 1:14:07.800 --> 1:14:09.880 in my work, it doesn't matter that I'm a nurse 1:14:10.000 --> 1:14:13.080 and you're a secretary. We have the same boss. We 1:14:13.120 --> 1:14:15.759 have the same problems a lot of the times. And 1:14:16.320 --> 1:14:20.599 so I think people people want to do the thing, 1:14:20.680 --> 1:14:23.040 which is to all have the glorious general strike that 1:14:23.200 --> 1:14:26.360 like overthrows capitalism or whatever or fixes all the problems 1:14:26.360 --> 1:14:30.400 that your work. But you know, starting everyone forgets all 1:14:30.439 --> 1:14:33.640 the necessary intermediate steps to get to that point. And 1:14:33.720 --> 1:14:35.920 sometimes it means just get the union and in the 1:14:35.960 --> 1:14:38.320 door in the first place, because like at a campaign 1:14:38.320 --> 1:14:40.960 I was a part of here in Chicago where my 1:14:41.680 --> 1:14:44.320 Universe Chicago bought a non union hospital that was out 1:14:44.320 --> 1:14:47.400 in the community. Just getting in there, they were able 1:14:47.439 --> 1:14:52.160 to expose like basically an entire hospital wide scheme of 1:14:52.240 --> 1:14:58.360 like racial racist like practices around raises and compensation. And 1:14:58.479 --> 1:15:01.400 that is like that first step and then fixing that 1:15:01.520 --> 1:15:04.000 right because you don't want to have like white worse 1:15:04.360 --> 1:15:08.120 nurses making more than black nurses and black more than 1:15:08.200 --> 1:15:12.400 like did immigrant nurses like Filipino or like Mexican nurses. 1:15:12.760 --> 1:15:15.439 Get everyone on the same page so that you're fighting 1:15:15.479 --> 1:15:18.840 together instead of fighting each other. And you know, those 1:15:18.880 --> 1:15:21.320 are those first steps that you take. And then and 1:15:21.360 --> 1:15:24.400 then you start reaching out to people on other other 1:15:24.680 --> 1:15:29.479 workplaces or other work areas and build that kind of 1:15:29.520 --> 1:15:32.720 militancy across unions so that you can support each other. 1:15:32.800 --> 1:15:35.840 So maybe a secondary strike is illegal right now, but 1:15:35.880 --> 1:15:38.840 that doesn't mean that you don't have, you know, teamsters 1:15:38.840 --> 1:15:41.840 who won't cross the picket line, right you know, how 1:15:41.840 --> 1:15:44.080 do you go out and make it or you can 1:15:44.160 --> 1:15:49.440 build that solidarity so that like in Buffalo and the UM, 1:15:49.520 --> 1:15:52.040 the c w A nurses went on strike and they 1:15:52.080 --> 1:15:56.080 want pretty impressive things around staffing ratios. They literally had 1:15:56.120 --> 1:15:59.640 other unions going out and picketing board members of their 1:15:59.680 --> 1:16:06.040 hospital businesses and like getting really really like aggressive with 1:16:06.080 --> 1:16:09.240 that sort of stuff. So I think that I think 1:16:09.280 --> 1:16:13.040 that people need to just big takeaway is it's the 1:16:13.040 --> 1:16:15.880 biggest barrier to any of this stuff, is just getting 1:16:15.880 --> 1:16:20.360 people to believe that collective action is possible and they 1:16:20.360 --> 1:16:23.559 can get you wins. And then making sure that you 1:16:24.600 --> 1:16:28.120 take your time and be patient and understand that there's 1:16:28.120 --> 1:16:31.320 going to be losses. But in the grand scheme of things, 1:16:31.439 --> 1:16:38.360 don't don't don't mistake what looks like a setback when 1:16:38.360 --> 1:16:41.240 it's actually a victory for like a victory, like for 1:16:41.840 --> 1:16:45.400 a real like a defeat and um, and talk with 1:16:45.439 --> 1:16:47.920 people like that's what they hate that, Like, bosses hate 1:16:47.920 --> 1:16:49.760 it when we're talking with each other and talk to 1:16:49.760 --> 1:16:51.519 people you're not comfortable with. That's the That's the other 1:16:51.560 --> 1:16:54.760 thing is that people are very nervous to talk to people. 1:16:54.800 --> 1:16:56.960 Like It's always funny when you run into people who 1:16:56.960 --> 1:17:01.040 are ra ra like unions, ra ra like socialism, YadA, YadA, YadA, 1:17:01.320 --> 1:17:03.760 and they don't talk to their co workers, right, and 1:17:03.840 --> 1:17:05.679 your co workers are the people you're gonna be around 1:17:05.680 --> 1:17:08.519 for maybe some years, and that's where you spend a 1:17:08.600 --> 1:17:10.240 huge chunk of your time and like, but you don't 1:17:10.240 --> 1:17:14.320 know what's going on. They're like, Oh, they're all hostile. 1:17:14.320 --> 1:17:15.680 They don't want to know anything, they don't want to 1:17:15.680 --> 1:17:19.679 do anything. Funny thing is is that oftentimes the most 1:17:20.120 --> 1:17:22.840 people who seem very skeptical and anti union can be 1:17:22.880 --> 1:17:25.800 flipped and sometimes those people become the best, like the 1:17:25.800 --> 1:17:28.720 most dedicated people to the union. It also means that 1:17:28.720 --> 1:17:30.360 you're going to talk to people you disagree with. Like 1:17:31.000 --> 1:17:32.720 there was a Trump dude who was on like the 1:17:32.760 --> 1:17:35.639 bargaining committee for the like our last strike. He fucking 1:17:35.640 --> 1:17:37.400 loved that thing. He was like, we're going on strike, 1:17:38.439 --> 1:17:40.800 but you know, it's also union full of black women, 1:17:40.840 --> 1:17:42.800 and he shut the funk up when you know it 1:17:42.920 --> 1:17:45.120 wasn't like, you know, being racist and ship, but you 1:17:45.120 --> 1:17:47.040 know you're gonna be with those people. And part of 1:17:47.080 --> 1:17:48.840 the thing is that it's about how we're all moving 1:17:48.840 --> 1:17:52.840 together rather than making sure everyone is on the same 1:17:52.880 --> 1:17:55.400 page for every single thing, because the biggest thing is 1:17:56.040 --> 1:17:59.880 the collective action and building that collective power and hopefully 1:17:59.880 --> 1:18:05.920 the collective powers. Hopefully the collective power outweighs. It's if 1:18:05.960 --> 1:18:10.679 you stand firm on principles like anti racism and fighting 1:18:10.680 --> 1:18:14.120 against discrimination and misogyny, that sort of thing. It actually 1:18:14.160 --> 1:18:16.360 builds the power of the union. I think that's the 1:18:16.360 --> 1:18:18.120 other things that people are like, Oh, I don't you know, 1:18:18.160 --> 1:18:21.519 like you know, working class people are all racist or 1:18:21.520 --> 1:18:23.400 reactionary or whatever. So I'm going to do that And 1:18:23.439 --> 1:18:25.639 that's how I'm gonna get that's my in. And it's like, 1:18:26.280 --> 1:18:27.640 I think there are a lot of people who like, 1:18:28.200 --> 1:18:30.559 they really don't like, you know, they don't like being 1:18:30.560 --> 1:18:34.879 around loud, racist assholes or people who you know, say slurs, 1:18:35.000 --> 1:18:38.000 like especially if it's like I mean, you can make 1:18:38.040 --> 1:18:41.040 the arguments like this is that's their way of dividing us. 1:18:41.400 --> 1:18:45.800 Our goal is to be together. And historically speaking, the 1:18:45.840 --> 1:18:49.519 one thing that's done the most too fight working class 1:18:49.600 --> 1:18:54.559 racism is union organizing. Ye. So, And I think also, 1:18:54.760 --> 1:18:59.120 like you know, in terms of like building something that's 1:18:59.160 --> 1:19:03.360 actually durable and powerful on top of sort of just 1:19:03.439 --> 1:19:05.160 the division. I mean, you know, even when it becomes 1:19:05.160 --> 1:19:08.840 stuff like transphobia, right, it's like, you know, if if 1:19:09.080 --> 1:19:14.000 you can convince people to fight like first, like fight 1:19:14.040 --> 1:19:15.720 for the person next to them, right, you know, I 1:19:15.720 --> 1:19:16.880 mean this is this is the thing that people like 1:19:16.920 --> 1:19:20.439 said a lot during the during the brainding campaign, but 1:19:20.439 --> 1:19:24.200 it was like you know, if people like, yeah, like 1:19:24.200 --> 1:19:26.920 if you can get someone to uh fight, like fight 1:19:27.000 --> 1:19:29.320 for the person next to you in a concrete way 1:19:29.360 --> 1:19:31.400 in the workplace in a way that's actually real for 1:19:31.600 --> 1:19:35.200 something that doesn't directly affect them. You the you know 1:19:35.760 --> 1:19:38.679 a a it's just like the the amount of power 1:19:38.720 --> 1:19:44.240 that you've built there is incredible. And then be also, Okay, 1:19:44.280 --> 1:19:46.200 I forgot where I was going with that, Daniel, please 1:19:46.200 --> 1:19:48.160 cut that. Hold on, hold on, I can kind of 1:19:48.160 --> 1:19:51.240 build off, but we just say this. My personal experience 1:19:51.439 --> 1:19:56.479 is that queer women run the labor movement and that 1:19:56.800 --> 1:20:00.479 like and that if you think that people who have 1:20:00.560 --> 1:20:03.240 been bullied from the day they like stepped into like 1:20:03.360 --> 1:20:06.479 a into a kindergarten aren't going to be the people 1:20:06.479 --> 1:20:11.559 who are most equipped to fight bullshit, bullying from a 1:20:11.600 --> 1:20:15.240 boss or justice or bullshit you're fucking like, like, just 1:20:15.280 --> 1:20:17.840 get the funk out because you haven't been in a 1:20:17.960 --> 1:20:20.240 union and you don't know what you know, I mean, 1:20:20.360 --> 1:20:25.800 you like the like people. Unions are at their best 1:20:25.960 --> 1:20:29.519 when they incorporate, you know, all, like when they are 1:20:29.520 --> 1:20:32.479 fighting for everybody, because what a boss can get away 1:20:32.520 --> 1:20:35.559 with with the weakest person, that's what they'll do to 1:20:35.600 --> 1:20:37.720 all of us if they get the chance. And so 1:20:37.760 --> 1:20:40.160 I think that there's this idea that's like, oh, we're 1:20:40.160 --> 1:20:43.040 going to set we're not going to we're going to 1:20:43.080 --> 1:20:45.760 ignore this or that sort of thing. It's like, you know, 1:20:45.880 --> 1:20:49.360 that's when people like, you know, people will turn away 1:20:49.439 --> 1:20:51.639 from unions as they feel like they're not being listened 1:20:51.680 --> 1:20:53.679 to or taken seriously. And you don't know what people's 1:20:53.760 --> 1:20:56.519 like identities are just because you see how they look. 1:20:56.720 --> 1:20:59.880 And so I think that it's real important for us 1:20:59.920 --> 1:21:02.160 to understand that if we're going to fight these fights, 1:21:02.240 --> 1:21:05.479 we need to do so with the understanding that it's everybody, 1:21:05.800 --> 1:21:09.759 and that the working class is a giant, multi racial 1:21:09.920 --> 1:21:13.680 conglomeration of every identity in this country. Um, and that 1:21:13.800 --> 1:21:17.720 the more marginal your identity is, the more useful having 1:21:17.760 --> 1:21:21.160 a union is to like solving your problems. Like I said, 1:21:21.240 --> 1:21:25.960 like racist racist compensation practices, there was no way that 1:21:26.000 --> 1:21:28.200 was going to get fixed, Like it wasn't even uncovered. 1:21:28.240 --> 1:21:30.599 People didn't understand it was happening until like the union 1:21:30.640 --> 1:21:33.000 got in. Doesn't mean there are other ways to fix things, 1:21:33.000 --> 1:21:35.240 but it's one of the one of the most powerful 1:21:35.280 --> 1:21:38.680 ways to fix things. I think that people just like 1:21:39.320 --> 1:21:42.800 don't understand because they don't have experience. Because they don't 1:21:42.800 --> 1:21:46.640 have an experience, they end up with they end up 1:21:46.680 --> 1:21:49.400 with misconceptions about what they're going to get into, and 1:21:49.400 --> 1:21:51.840 then they get disappointed. And I think the reality, I mean, 1:21:51.920 --> 1:21:54.760 I think that the reality is not as bad as 1:21:54.840 --> 1:21:57.800 sometimes it seems. But also you gotta go into all 1:21:57.840 --> 1:22:01.240 this ship with open eyes. And I think of there's 1:22:01.320 --> 1:22:03.439 and that's the other thing one of the fun things. 1:22:03.479 --> 1:22:05.200 Maybe this will make it into the podcast. I don't know, 1:22:05.280 --> 1:22:07.800 but um, one of the fun things is always like 1:22:07.920 --> 1:22:11.120 hanging out with like if you like every workplace has 1:22:11.160 --> 1:22:14.800 like its lefties just about, and like hanging out with 1:22:14.840 --> 1:22:19.240 the lefties who just can't get their brains wrapped around 1:22:19.240 --> 1:22:21.519 the ship that you need to have a union. I 1:22:21.520 --> 1:22:23.479 think that there's like this idea that's like, oh, I'm 1:22:23.479 --> 1:22:26.040 gonna talk to my friend. They're like they're like they 1:22:26.120 --> 1:22:28.320 say they're a communists, so that the and then that 1:22:28.479 --> 1:22:32.439 all those people do not always but they're they're sitting there. 1:22:32.439 --> 1:22:34.880 It's like talking a bunch of ship about like the union. 1:22:34.880 --> 1:22:36.439 They're a bunch of sellouts is or that, and it's 1:22:36.479 --> 1:22:38.479 like literally it's the only thing you're gonna do to 1:22:38.560 --> 1:22:41.439 get your like to fix the problem, and you're just like, 1:22:41.479 --> 1:22:43.040 we're just trying to get this problem fixed. Can we 1:22:43.040 --> 1:22:45.360 just set aside what you think needs to happen like 1:22:46.000 --> 1:22:48.160 that you guys talked about it. You're like Spartacus leak 1:22:48.280 --> 1:22:51.840 meeting or whatever, like, oh, this isn't a real strike, 1:22:52.040 --> 1:22:54.439 Like we're not going out until like for like you know, 1:22:54.560 --> 1:22:57.040 three months. And it's like, you know, it's like the 1:22:57.120 --> 1:23:02.439 sort of thing where um sometimes or oftentimes, And I 1:23:02.439 --> 1:23:04.960 think it's because a lot of people kind of pick 1:23:05.040 --> 1:23:07.840 up their politics almost like an aesthetic as opposed to 1:23:07.920 --> 1:23:10.760 like a thing that like is about like fixing the 1:23:10.840 --> 1:23:15.880 problems in their lives. And sometimes even I'm like, you know, 1:23:16.040 --> 1:23:18.120 like this is the problem that I face. Is like 1:23:18.840 --> 1:23:22.080 like shit is real like for a lot of people. 1:23:22.160 --> 1:23:24.240 And you can sit there and talk about this or that, 1:23:24.479 --> 1:23:28.519 and like you're you know, you think that things. You know, 1:23:28.520 --> 1:23:31.320 you've got this perfect ideal vision of what things should be, 1:23:31.360 --> 1:23:33.680 and then you've got this kind of imperfect thing in 1:23:33.760 --> 1:23:37.160 front of you that is, even though it's imperfect, it's 1:23:37.160 --> 1:23:39.439 basically what you've got. And so it's like you've got 1:23:39.439 --> 1:23:41.800 to kind of you've got to work with what you 1:23:41.880 --> 1:23:44.080 have and fix it up and make it the best 1:23:44.120 --> 1:23:46.919 that you think it can be. Um, But also understand 1:23:46.960 --> 1:23:49.439 because it's an organization full of people, that it's not 1:23:49.479 --> 1:23:51.880 going to be perfect every time. And yeah, maybe your 1:23:52.040 --> 1:23:54.040 union is going to do some liberal ship you know, 1:23:54.160 --> 1:23:58.440 and you're gonna and that's gonna annoy you. But you know, like, um, 1:23:58.760 --> 1:24:00.200 those people are still going to show up on the 1:24:00.240 --> 1:24:03.960 picket line if you're like, if you're organized and you're good, 1:24:04.160 --> 1:24:07.000 and like, you know, that's it's not the end of 1:24:07.000 --> 1:24:10.479 the world that your union isn't perfect. Um, but you've 1:24:10.479 --> 1:24:12.160 got to do everything you can to do your best 1:24:12.200 --> 1:24:15.040 to make it better because if you don't, then then 1:24:15.120 --> 1:24:17.599 liberals will do whatever they're gonna do, or conservatives will 1:24:17.600 --> 1:24:19.720 do whatever they're gonna do, and then they will like 1:24:20.120 --> 1:24:23.080 furtter away this thing. Like you can destroy a union 1:24:23.200 --> 1:24:27.800 if you aren't engaged. Like a union can be destroyed 1:24:27.960 --> 1:24:30.840 by people who think that you know, they're just like 1:24:30.920 --> 1:24:32.960 I just want to get my rays and like go home, 1:24:33.040 --> 1:24:35.479 and like, you know, if people's main concern is like 1:24:36.000 --> 1:24:40.080 their healthcare or like you know, that hour of prep 1:24:40.120 --> 1:24:42.360 time before they start their shift, or whatever, should you 1:24:42.479 --> 1:24:46.280 start their school day or whatever. Um. You know, a 1:24:46.360 --> 1:24:48.960 union can like dissolve out from underneath you and people 1:24:48.960 --> 1:24:50.720 are like, why is no one showing up to this thing? 1:24:50.760 --> 1:24:54.080 It's because you didn't talk to people and kind of 1:24:54.200 --> 1:24:55.559 what it is. I think that's the other thing. It's 1:24:55.600 --> 1:24:57.360 like listen, Like there's this idea that you're gonna get 1:24:57.439 --> 1:24:59.200 up and give a big speech and get everyone really 1:24:59.240 --> 1:25:02.160 excited about your about like being in a union. But 1:25:02.200 --> 1:25:04.720 the main thing is listening to people and listening to 1:25:04.720 --> 1:25:07.080 people who are critics. You know, your co workers who 1:25:07.560 --> 1:25:10.320 have complaints aren't like people that you should ignore. Those 1:25:10.320 --> 1:25:12.080 are people who need to listen to because those are 1:25:12.120 --> 1:25:16.040 people who they've got I mean, everyone's got legitimate problems 1:25:16.080 --> 1:25:19.240 with how you know work is happening. And like just 1:25:19.280 --> 1:25:22.519 because someone's like, you know, union is like, you know, trash, 1:25:23.000 --> 1:25:25.519 Like then find out why they think it's trash and 1:25:25.520 --> 1:25:27.280 then try and be like I want to try and 1:25:27.320 --> 1:25:28.920 fix out what can we do to fix it together? 1:25:28.960 --> 1:25:33.240 That sort of thing. I remember when when I was working, 1:25:33.520 --> 1:25:37.200 so I worked at like maintenance and a county facility 1:25:37.880 --> 1:25:40.640 for a while, and you know, so I was like 1:25:40.680 --> 1:25:42.599 a like I was like I was like a summer 1:25:42.640 --> 1:25:44.920 higher basically, and so would we We weren't in the union, 1:25:45.360 --> 1:25:47.160 but like everyone we were working for was in the union, 1:25:47.200 --> 1:25:49.360 and they all like, you know, these are old ex 1:25:49.360 --> 1:25:55.200 construction worker guys and you know, like they're in the union. 1:25:55.280 --> 1:25:57.760 But like I remember that we show these conversations that 1:25:57.800 --> 1:25:59.840 were like, okay, so we have a union meeting this week, 1:26:00.080 --> 1:26:01.840 like do you want to be the person who tries 1:26:01.840 --> 1:26:03.519 to talk about raising wages? And it was like everyone 1:26:03.640 --> 1:26:06.840 was just like no, And you know, people you know, 1:26:06.880 --> 1:26:08.680 like these guys are like very right wing and they 1:26:08.680 --> 1:26:10.280 were just sort of like piste off all the time. 1:26:10.280 --> 1:26:11.840 But it was interesting because the thing they were piste 1:26:11.840 --> 1:26:16.040 off all the time about was that, like, you know, 1:26:16.320 --> 1:26:20.160 their union didn't do anything like their union like they 1:26:20.400 --> 1:26:22.280 they they're they they're like they were They were basically 1:26:22.280 --> 1:26:26.400 constantly annoyed that like the union didn't like the the 1:26:26.120 --> 1:26:28.680 the union wasn't fighting for pay raises, uson wasn't sort 1:26:28.680 --> 1:26:31.240 of fighting. And I think that was, you know, an 1:26:31.280 --> 1:26:34.880 example of how this stuff sort of just fails if 1:26:34.920 --> 1:26:38.120 if people aren't like people don't feel like they can 1:26:38.120 --> 1:26:43.160 actually do something like itself. I mean, and they call 1:26:43.240 --> 1:26:46.640 it service unionism. There's this idea that like um or 1:26:46.720 --> 1:26:49.439 like like that a business union's job is to kind 1:26:49.439 --> 1:26:52.280 of serve you and you kind of like they do 1:26:52.320 --> 1:26:55.240 all the work. Like one of the complaints that some 1:26:55.439 --> 1:26:58.439 people who are not big fans of our union and 1:26:58.479 --> 1:27:02.040 our hospital is that, like, oh well, other other unions 1:27:02.080 --> 1:27:07.720 have lawyers negotiate the contract for you. And when we negotiate, 1:27:07.840 --> 1:27:10.840 we have a room full of nurses who are doing 1:27:10.920 --> 1:27:14.880 the who are doing the negotiations, and the goal is 1:27:14.920 --> 1:27:18.439 to have it be as transparent as possible. And like 1:27:18.560 --> 1:27:21.880 the idea that you're going to hand over negotiations to 1:27:22.080 --> 1:27:26.200 a lawyer and somehow get a better deal than than 1:27:26.520 --> 1:27:30.360 a room full of the actual workers. And it's funny 1:27:30.360 --> 1:27:33.400 because we have our bargaining team and then like will 1:27:33.439 --> 1:27:36.080 periodically do something called open bargaining because it's the thing 1:27:36.120 --> 1:27:38.120 that bosses hate. It's like they want to make a 1:27:38.160 --> 1:27:42.040 deal like with a door shut right, Um, But there's 1:27:42.080 --> 1:27:44.599 no reason why a union has to do that. Like, 1:27:44.840 --> 1:27:47.360 you can invite whoever you want to your bargaining. You 1:27:47.400 --> 1:27:50.160 can invite community members to your bargaining if you feel 1:27:50.160 --> 1:27:53.880 like you're man it could because management behind closed doors 1:27:53.920 --> 1:27:56.320 will say all kinds of things, and you know, they'll 1:27:56.400 --> 1:27:59.080 they'll trash talk everyone involved, and they'll you know, and 1:27:59.120 --> 1:28:03.840 they will make absurd demands about you know, it's like, oh, 1:28:03.880 --> 1:28:05.439 you're all gonna take a pay cut, you know, on 1:28:05.520 --> 1:28:08.640 this contract, that sort of thing, and they hate it. 1:28:08.760 --> 1:28:12.160 They absolutely hate it when like workers actually show up 1:28:12.240 --> 1:28:19.599 to these things. And so, um, I think that understanding that, Like, 1:28:21.080 --> 1:28:23.960 I think there's this idea that like some people are 1:28:24.040 --> 1:28:26.360 big on like we have to be kind of like 1:28:26.840 --> 1:28:30.400 secretive to like get the best deal, and like we 1:28:30.439 --> 1:28:33.799 shouldn't be like we shouldn't be transparent with everyone about 1:28:33.840 --> 1:28:36.759 what's going on because that's how like because then they'll 1:28:36.840 --> 1:28:39.760 figure out some way to counter us. But in my experience, 1:28:39.880 --> 1:28:44.840 my understanding is that the more transparent your union is, 1:28:45.640 --> 1:28:50.680 the more involved people get, and the more able people are, 1:28:50.720 --> 1:28:52.280 the more willing people are to put their time and 1:28:52.360 --> 1:28:54.200 energy into it. Because that's what comes down to is 1:28:54.240 --> 1:28:56.160 like people out to like everyone's working and busy and 1:28:56.240 --> 1:28:59.640 their life life is hard and sucks, and so like 1:28:59.720 --> 1:29:02.400 do you have time to like dedicate to show up 1:29:02.439 --> 1:29:05.320 to like talk to like if you why would you 1:29:05.360 --> 1:29:07.559 go to a union meeting? If when you raise the 1:29:07.640 --> 1:29:10.920 concern like we want higher wages, and like the union 1:29:11.280 --> 1:29:15.320 like staffer doesn't care if you get higher wages because 1:29:15.400 --> 1:29:17.760 they're like while we're getting our union dudes, and like 1:29:17.760 --> 1:29:21.080 what what then do we care? Right? That's like a 1:29:21.200 --> 1:29:23.840 huge problem. And the part of the thing is that 1:29:23.880 --> 1:29:26.439 those problems don't get solved if they if they exist, 1:29:26.439 --> 1:29:28.960 because they that definitely exists in some muni and a 1:29:29.000 --> 1:29:33.000 lot of unions, more unions than uh than not um, 1:29:33.040 --> 1:29:37.640 if the workers don't get organized together, Like we just 1:29:37.720 --> 1:29:46.040 saw an election within the Teamsters International where uh the 1:29:46.120 --> 1:29:50.240 halfa uh don't Jimmy Haffa Jr. One of the half 1:29:50.360 --> 1:29:53.439 a kids, was like president of the union and was 1:29:53.479 --> 1:29:58.040 this like not doing a great job and um, and 1:29:58.160 --> 1:30:00.760 like there was a rank and file like push to 1:30:00.880 --> 1:30:04.479 get that guy uh unelected, you know, and put it 1:30:04.560 --> 1:30:07.200 replaced with a rank and file worker who wants to 1:30:07.240 --> 1:30:10.559 put actual time and resources into organizing you know. Like 1:30:10.720 --> 1:30:14.320 there's nothing sadder than a than like watching a union 1:30:14.360 --> 1:30:18.360 campaign fail because the union clearly is phoning it in. 1:30:18.920 --> 1:30:22.200 Like that's happened. I've seen it happen not inside my union, 1:30:22.240 --> 1:30:26.400 but in other unions and uh, and I mean, like 1:30:26.720 --> 1:30:29.320 at my workplace, there's several unions and I've seen I've 1:30:29.360 --> 1:30:32.840 seen a failed campaign and it's like obvious, like there's 1:30:33.240 --> 1:30:35.160 you know, I'm not I don't co sign everything that 1:30:35.280 --> 1:30:38.880 someone like Jaye mccavalary. I think that's alway share mcavleary 1:30:39.479 --> 1:30:42.439 has to say. She wrote like no shortcuts. Um, I 1:30:42.479 --> 1:30:44.120 don't sign off on everything she has to say, but 1:30:44.160 --> 1:30:46.200 she has some really insightful things. It's like if you're 1:30:46.240 --> 1:30:50.360 not organizing to win, like you'll fail, and like you 1:30:50.439 --> 1:30:52.519 have to take this so seriously. And that's where like 1:30:53.000 --> 1:30:55.080 I'll say that, like, if you've got a choice between 1:30:55.120 --> 1:30:58.280 I'm gonna put time into a political political campaign versus 1:30:58.320 --> 1:31:01.720 a union campaign, You're going to get way more bang 1:31:01.760 --> 1:31:03.760 for your buck. You're gonna get so much more experience. 1:31:03.800 --> 1:31:07.680 You're gonna get like a durable organization that's going to 1:31:07.800 --> 1:31:10.080 be around for years if you put that time into 1:31:10.400 --> 1:31:16.880 a union campaign. Because like, imagine winning an election, right, um, 1:31:16.920 --> 1:31:20.360 except the politician you're running against is the incumbent and 1:31:20.600 --> 1:31:24.759 they can basically drag every one of their constituents into 1:31:24.920 --> 1:31:27.840 like a meeting and tell them how awful you are 1:31:27.960 --> 1:31:30.120 all the time, and lie and say whatever they want, 1:31:30.920 --> 1:31:33.439 and then they can, you know, do all kinds of 1:31:33.479 --> 1:31:37.200 tricks to like basically dismantle your campaign. So I guess, 1:31:37.200 --> 1:31:39.120 like the thing that I would say is that like 1:31:39.160 --> 1:31:41.920 if you if you do it the right way and 1:31:42.040 --> 1:31:44.439 you actually win one of those campaigns, you're gonna come 1:31:44.439 --> 1:31:47.000 out way ahead in sort of understanding. Like you have 1:31:47.080 --> 1:31:48.960 to talk to people, you have to be super organized, 1:31:48.960 --> 1:31:51.320 you have to know what people's issues are in their 1:31:51.360 --> 1:31:56.000 different targeting units. UM. You have to find people like 1:31:56.160 --> 1:31:59.040 part of like it's successful campaigns. I've been part of 1:31:59.400 --> 1:32:02.320 literally going on a search to go find like the 1:32:02.760 --> 1:32:05.559 people that need to be like signing cards and stuff. 1:32:06.479 --> 1:32:08.559 And you just have to be a very good listener, 1:32:08.840 --> 1:32:10.840 ready to talk and listen and hear what people have 1:32:10.880 --> 1:32:16.080 to say. Um, and then turn that um information into knowledge, 1:32:16.840 --> 1:32:22.360 knowledge and power UM and UM. I think that if 1:32:22.360 --> 1:32:25.719 you pull it off, you have done something substantially harder 1:32:25.760 --> 1:32:28.679 than say like winning a school board election or something 1:32:28.720 --> 1:32:31.760 like that. I mean, it's it's it really is. It's 1:32:31.760 --> 1:32:35.160 like taking like those kind of skills that you would 1:32:35.240 --> 1:32:38.200 use to like win some sort of small municipal election, 1:32:38.360 --> 1:32:41.360 and it's like exponentially more hard because the rules are 1:32:41.400 --> 1:32:46.080 just so tilted against you winning. So if you are 1:32:46.120 --> 1:32:49.559 serious about it, if you're serious about changing the world, 1:32:49.680 --> 1:32:52.839 if you can't like someone, Yeah, I think Murray Buckschen 1:32:52.920 --> 1:32:55.360 once said, if you can't run for dog catcher, you 1:32:55.479 --> 1:32:59.360 probably shouldn't be talking about revolution, you know, But I 1:32:59.400 --> 1:33:02.880 think that probably more you know, more appropriate to be, Like, 1:33:02.920 --> 1:33:05.320 if you can't win a union election, you probably shouldn't 1:33:05.360 --> 1:33:08.439 be talking about revolution because even if you want to 1:33:08.439 --> 1:33:11.439 do all the things, you need to have the ability, 1:33:11.520 --> 1:33:15.479 the skills, the ability immediate conflict, getting everyone on board 1:33:15.560 --> 1:33:18.680 to do the collective action that like you would need 1:33:18.720 --> 1:33:21.080 to do to successfully kind of like carry out like 1:33:21.520 --> 1:33:24.960 you know, it's one thing to have the the grand insurrection. 1:33:25.000 --> 1:33:27.240 It's the other thing to carry it forward and keep 1:33:27.280 --> 1:33:29.120 carrying it to the point where you're over the line 1:33:29.240 --> 1:33:33.040 you've completely changed the world, right, So and I think 1:33:33.040 --> 1:33:36.720 that And so I just think that like UM and 1:33:36.760 --> 1:33:38.519 I think that's similar things go with like you know, 1:33:38.560 --> 1:33:43.360 tenant organizing, community organizing. There's various types of organizing that 1:33:43.600 --> 1:33:45.600 use those similar skills that you get in like a 1:33:45.680 --> 1:33:49.320 union campaign. UM. And it's just a very different type 1:33:49.400 --> 1:33:54.160 of UM politics and organization and skills that you would 1:33:54.200 --> 1:33:57.280 get from, you know, showing up for your local justice 1:33:57.320 --> 1:34:00.320 dem and you know, like knocking on the door, sister rangers. 1:34:00.439 --> 1:34:02.519 You'll never you may never speak to you again. You know. 1:34:03.040 --> 1:34:05.200 When you're talking with your coworkers, those are your coworkers. 1:34:05.200 --> 1:34:07.200 They are going to be there until you're you know, 1:34:07.920 --> 1:34:12.120 you retire or you're fired yep, or you quit. So anyway, 1:34:12.240 --> 1:34:14.559 that's I guess that's another good takeaway I think from 1:34:14.600 --> 1:34:18.160 all this. So one thing I wanted to make sure 1:34:18.200 --> 1:34:22.000 to get to is, so I think there's a lot 1:34:22.040 --> 1:34:25.479 of people who are listening to this, who working no 1:34:25.600 --> 1:34:29.920 need workplaces and want to try to start this, and 1:34:29.960 --> 1:34:33.960 I wanted to know what would be your recommendations for them. 1:34:34.000 --> 1:34:36.240 You know, how, how how do you start this process? 1:34:36.400 --> 1:34:39.520 What does this look like? In what kinds of conversations 1:34:41.080 --> 1:34:45.599 should you be having with your coworkers? Yeah, for sure. 1:34:45.840 --> 1:34:48.360 So um, I think one of the first things that 1:34:48.400 --> 1:34:51.559 I think a lot of people, a lot of people 1:34:51.720 --> 1:34:54.920 don't understand is that there is an amount of risk 1:34:54.960 --> 1:34:58.320 and stuff too organizing, and that you're, like, first off, 1:34:58.400 --> 1:35:01.639 like you should be chill and like not like running 1:35:01.640 --> 1:35:03.720 around telling everyone you want a union, because that's a 1:35:03.720 --> 1:35:07.120 great way to lose your job. Um. I think the 1:35:07.200 --> 1:35:10.360 thing is is that you build relationships and find out 1:35:10.400 --> 1:35:15.120 what's happening, like just like you know, take from your 1:35:15.120 --> 1:35:18.320 experience and figure out what's like in h like, man, 1:35:18.439 --> 1:35:21.160 it really sucks like I got like I got screwed 1:35:21.160 --> 1:35:24.720 over on my vacation requests or like I, you know, man, 1:35:24.800 --> 1:35:27.280 our raises were really shitty this year, and I heard like, 1:35:27.360 --> 1:35:30.479 you know, boss talking about like how much like like 1:35:30.520 --> 1:35:33.559 they've made so much money that sort of thing. Um, 1:35:34.760 --> 1:35:38.800 So I think that it comes down to you have 1:35:38.880 --> 1:35:42.880 to be It's kind of like a combination of like 1:35:42.880 --> 1:35:47.240 like an investigative reporter and like someone who is just 1:35:47.280 --> 1:35:50.519 really good at like talking to people and just kind 1:35:50.520 --> 1:35:55.200 of like understanding what's making them tick and understanding also 1:35:55.240 --> 1:35:57.320 that maybe you're not the person who's going to get 1:35:57.320 --> 1:36:01.559 everyone on board, but that finding other people who ever, 1:36:01.760 --> 1:36:03.360 Like I think the big thing is like who's like 1:36:03.400 --> 1:36:07.559 the most prospected person on like in your work area 1:36:07.640 --> 1:36:10.519 that sort of thing, who like they know that the 1:36:10.640 --> 1:36:12.840 unit or they know the work area, they've been there 1:36:12.920 --> 1:36:16.080 the longest, they have like the most experience. People look 1:36:16.160 --> 1:36:17.800 up to them. There are the people who train other 1:36:17.800 --> 1:36:20.360 people that sort of thing. Those are the people who 1:36:20.560 --> 1:36:23.080 everyone looks to when it comes down to these sorts 1:36:23.120 --> 1:36:26.040 of things, and you know, just you don't have to 1:36:26.080 --> 1:36:29.080 be friends with everybody, but like doing it's I think 1:36:29.120 --> 1:36:32.840 it's really good to just, like two, be open to 1:36:33.080 --> 1:36:36.840 listening to everybody that you work with and finding out 1:36:36.880 --> 1:36:42.360 what it is that's really going on. Yes, I've noticed 1:36:42.479 --> 1:36:44.599 like in a lot of places that I've worked, like 1:36:45.520 --> 1:36:48.240 the boss is often don't really know what's going on either, 1:36:49.360 --> 1:36:52.200 like they, And I think that that that's something I 1:36:52.240 --> 1:36:55.519 can give you if you understand how the process works 1:36:55.520 --> 1:36:58.680 and who's doing what and what people like need, that 1:36:58.720 --> 1:37:02.400 gives you like a big vantage over the bosses who 1:37:02.640 --> 1:37:09.599 just have no idea what's going on, which I think, Yeah, 1:37:09.720 --> 1:37:12.960 I think it's very it's very normal for bosses to 1:37:13.080 --> 1:37:16.040 really not know what's happening, and there's always someone who does, 1:37:16.320 --> 1:37:20.240 like figuring out the people who really know how things 1:37:20.320 --> 1:37:23.120 work are like those are like the those are the 1:37:23.160 --> 1:37:27.280 people who, um, you want to be talking with and 1:37:27.280 --> 1:37:30.240 figuring out like where they kind of stand on things, 1:37:31.160 --> 1:37:35.679 and um, you know, I think like the first step 1:37:35.800 --> 1:37:39.040 is like just having good relationships and people trusting you 1:37:39.240 --> 1:37:42.800 and you know, you know, if you know, like, I 1:37:42.840 --> 1:37:45.280 don't think everyone needs to be a superstar workers sort 1:37:45.280 --> 1:37:48.000 of thing to be a good union organizer. But like 1:37:48.439 --> 1:37:51.120 they always say, it's like people who have the most 1:37:51.120 --> 1:37:54.439 problems oftentimes are people that are don't make great organizers 1:37:54.479 --> 1:37:57.479 because people don't see them as people to follow. But 1:37:57.800 --> 1:38:02.120 um um, but I think that it's important to just 1:38:02.200 --> 1:38:04.599 like talk with your to like just figure out what's 1:38:04.640 --> 1:38:07.240 going on first. That's your first step. Figure out what's 1:38:07.240 --> 1:38:09.519 going on? What are the things I mean? And you 1:38:09.560 --> 1:38:12.880 can come around together in you know, and like and 1:38:12.920 --> 1:38:16.160 how do you get people outside of the workplace? So 1:38:16.240 --> 1:38:18.360 you talk like how do you, like do you have 1:38:18.520 --> 1:38:21.000 like a group chat or signal chat or like a 1:38:21.040 --> 1:38:23.400 What's app chat or Facebook group? And where do you 1:38:23.439 --> 1:38:25.280 just like start kind of like and you know, be 1:38:25.400 --> 1:38:28.360 very care be careful about who's involved and just kind 1:38:28.400 --> 1:38:30.519 of like low key, just like start talking with folks 1:38:30.560 --> 1:38:34.439 and identifying to people who, um, who are outside of 1:38:34.439 --> 1:38:37.519 your work area, who know people like sometimes it's you know, 1:38:37.560 --> 1:38:39.000 you'll talk to people and they're like, I don't want 1:38:39.040 --> 1:38:41.280 to talk about a union, but you'll be like, do 1:38:41.320 --> 1:38:45.040 you know anyone who cares? Who who has said anything 1:38:45.080 --> 1:38:48.200 about unions before, and so talking to people to find 1:38:48.200 --> 1:38:50.760 out who they know. Like these are all this kind 1:38:50.760 --> 1:38:53.760 of like crucial first steps to like organizing. And I 1:38:53.800 --> 1:38:57.519 think the thing is is that, like there have been 1:38:57.600 --> 1:39:00.559 times where you'll have a non union work place where 1:39:01.120 --> 1:39:04.800 if the people in a particular area of of like 1:39:04.840 --> 1:39:07.719 a of like a hospital or like a workplace wherever, 1:39:07.800 --> 1:39:11.120 we'll do some collective thing that gets some sort of results. 1:39:11.600 --> 1:39:13.439 So I think it's always like it's like, let's get 1:39:13.479 --> 1:39:17.800 people to sign off on a petition about like you know, 1:39:18.000 --> 1:39:23.360 like if of your coworkers are unhappy with like raises 1:39:23.439 --> 1:39:25.240 or something like that. Like the more people that are 1:39:25.280 --> 1:39:28.880 involved in those first steps, the more likely it is 1:39:28.920 --> 1:39:33.160 that it won't result in retaliation and like you'll end 1:39:33.240 --> 1:39:38.800 up getting some sort of victory. Um. So I guess 1:39:38.880 --> 1:39:40.720 like the thing that I would say is just like 1:39:40.840 --> 1:39:45.080 be be ready for like people to look at greet 1:39:45.080 --> 1:39:49.600 you with skepticism because like it's it's hard, it's a 1:39:49.640 --> 1:39:52.720 hard thing to do, and always just be finding out 1:39:52.760 --> 1:39:56.080 what is bothering people and then look at little things 1:39:56.120 --> 1:39:58.719 that you can do to kind of like flex power, 1:39:58.920 --> 1:40:03.400 like to like actively flects your power and um. It 1:40:03.439 --> 1:40:07.680 can be as small as like everyone bringing up the 1:40:07.760 --> 1:40:10.760 same issue at like a work meeting, right Like if 1:40:10.800 --> 1:40:13.759 you and it could be like, hey, let's talk about 1:40:13.800 --> 1:40:15.479 this at this work meeting. This is and if we 1:40:15.560 --> 1:40:19.720 all say something together, like, we're going to be fine, right. UM. 1:40:19.880 --> 1:40:23.360 So like starting with those first steps, I think it 1:40:23.479 --> 1:40:25.720 is the first like thing, Like the first thing is 1:40:25.800 --> 1:40:29.200 know what's going on, build relationships, be a trustworthy person, 1:40:29.400 --> 1:40:32.400 Like you can't be like the unit gossip or the 1:40:32.400 --> 1:40:34.919 the work area gossip that like knows that's in everyone's 1:40:34.920 --> 1:40:38.439 business or stirring up stuff and be successful at this. UM. 1:40:38.520 --> 1:40:41.519 But if you are, you know, if you're someone that 1:40:41.560 --> 1:40:44.680 people like trust or look to or you know, like 1:40:44.720 --> 1:40:47.040 a person that people are like they help solve our problems, 1:40:47.600 --> 1:40:49.920 those are the people who I mean you're going to 1:40:49.960 --> 1:40:52.320 be well set to begin to kind of take the 1:40:52.360 --> 1:40:55.320 steps on that and then you know as you kind 1:40:55.320 --> 1:40:59.160 of build those kind of like build that organization step 1:40:59.160 --> 1:41:04.559 by step. No, no union UM is going to invest 1:41:04.680 --> 1:41:08.240 the time in a union campaign. If it's just you 1:41:08.439 --> 1:41:11.400 and like two other people, like you need like you 1:41:11.439 --> 1:41:13.160 need to get a room, They're always say like, well, 1:41:13.200 --> 1:41:14.800 if you get a room full of people together, I'm 1:41:14.800 --> 1:41:17.080 willing to talk to them, and that's kind of the thing. 1:41:17.160 --> 1:41:19.439 And you know, Zoom and stuff has actually made that 1:41:19.439 --> 1:41:23.160 a little bit easier UM, which in some ways can 1:41:23.200 --> 1:41:25.439 be a weakness because you end up with like it's 1:41:25.439 --> 1:41:27.719 a lot less commitment to show up to a Zoom 1:41:27.720 --> 1:41:31.040 meeting that it is to UM to show up at 1:41:31.080 --> 1:41:35.200 like a bar or a place after work UM or 1:41:35.240 --> 1:41:37.600 a church or wherever. It's like a good, like h 1:41:38.240 --> 1:41:40.720 like neutral safe place and people feel like they can 1:41:40.760 --> 1:41:43.280 be honest with each other about what's going on. UM. 1:41:43.320 --> 1:41:49.400 But at the same time, just like being the more 1:41:50.040 --> 1:41:53.519 the the more people you get on board with the thing, 1:41:54.120 --> 1:41:58.040 the more likely that it will succeed. You'll attract support 1:41:58.160 --> 1:42:01.280 from like an actual union that UM is able to 1:42:01.320 --> 1:42:03.120 help you if you decide that that's how you want 1:42:03.120 --> 1:42:05.080 to do it, or if that makes sense in a 1:42:05.160 --> 1:42:08.679 legal context. And so I just like always like start small, 1:42:08.760 --> 1:42:11.800 figure out the small things, be willing to do like 1:42:11.880 --> 1:42:15.760 collective action to get little small victories. And that's a 1:42:15.880 --> 1:42:18.760 great way to get started, I think, and then like 1:42:19.120 --> 1:42:21.639 really do like sleuthing and research, like figure out how 1:42:21.680 --> 1:42:26.120 things actually work. UM. That's like you know, That was 1:42:26.160 --> 1:42:28.559 a problem with the Best Market campaign down in uh 1:42:28.760 --> 1:42:31.639 down in Alabama with those Amazon workers is they didn't 1:42:31.680 --> 1:42:34.960 know how many people worked at that facility, and then 1:42:34.960 --> 1:42:36.400 all of a sudden they're like, oh, yeah, we're going 1:42:36.400 --> 1:42:39.240 to include like an extra thousand people in this vote, 1:42:40.600 --> 1:42:44.160 you know, like six weeks out, and you know, like 1:42:44.240 --> 1:42:45.439 I don't want to I don't want to take a 1:42:45.520 --> 1:42:47.720 dump on the people who did that. But like, if 1:42:47.760 --> 1:42:50.800 you don't know that there's like another thousand people, or 1:42:50.920 --> 1:42:53.640 you don't have like everyone on board, you're not going 1:42:53.680 --> 1:42:57.160 to succeed. So no, everything you can as you're going 1:42:57.200 --> 1:42:59.400 in and do everything you can to find out things 1:42:59.479 --> 1:43:02.519 or make buddies with the friends buddies of the people 1:43:02.520 --> 1:43:06.280 who are gonna you know, know these things and you know, 1:43:06.760 --> 1:43:08.840 and then support each other, like it means showing up 1:43:09.040 --> 1:43:12.840 when like someone Sometimes what we do during these campaigns 1:43:12.880 --> 1:43:18.120 is someone will will have the contact for someone who's interested, 1:43:18.600 --> 1:43:20.679 and then your job is to go and find that 1:43:20.720 --> 1:43:23.519 person where they work and talk with them and then 1:43:23.560 --> 1:43:25.640 talk with them while they talk with their coworkers or 1:43:25.680 --> 1:43:27.679 back up them while they're talking to the co workers. 1:43:27.680 --> 1:43:30.920 Because they trust their their coworkers, trust their coworker, you know, 1:43:31.680 --> 1:43:33.880 you're a random stranger, you know, and then like, don't 1:43:33.920 --> 1:43:35.400 be afraid to say I don't know, but I will 1:43:35.439 --> 1:43:38.040 find out. Right, there's like this, there's this pressure I 1:43:38.080 --> 1:43:40.880 think to like have all the answers to like whatever 1:43:40.880 --> 1:43:46.200 people's questions are. And I think that it's like, um, 1:43:46.240 --> 1:43:51.960 I think that it's like I think that it's important 1:43:52.080 --> 1:43:55.400 to be honest when you don't understand, but then do 1:43:55.479 --> 1:43:58.960 the work of figuring out the answers for people. UM. 1:43:59.000 --> 1:44:00.920 And I think people respect that. And you know, a 1:44:00.920 --> 1:44:03.680 lot of people who are vocally against these sorts of 1:44:03.720 --> 1:44:07.120 things up front it's because they don't know. And if 1:44:07.200 --> 1:44:08.840 you you know, you're like, no, we've got a right 1:44:08.920 --> 1:44:12.559 to do this, or like, you know, the the you know, 1:44:12.680 --> 1:44:15.559 a management will say things like managion will say things 1:44:15.640 --> 1:44:20.439 like oh you will, um, you know, the union will 1:44:20.479 --> 1:44:23.280 get in between our relationship with you know, with you 1:44:23.360 --> 1:44:26.800 and us, right, And the point is is that like, well, 1:44:26.840 --> 1:44:29.040 the union is us where the code where the people 1:44:29.040 --> 1:44:31.679 doing it? Like everyone running You can't run a union 1:44:31.840 --> 1:44:34.160 if you don't have a bunch of people involved from 1:44:34.200 --> 1:44:37.080 the workplace. And it's like and making sure that people 1:44:37.120 --> 1:44:40.519 who are UM those people who end up being kind 1:44:40.520 --> 1:44:43.880 of like spokespersons for everyone else are people that folks 1:44:43.960 --> 1:44:46.479 trust and they have like a good like grasp of 1:44:46.560 --> 1:44:51.439 what everyone wants and yeah, so yeah, and then like 1:44:51.479 --> 1:44:53.400 you know, don't get bogged down in the legal ship. 1:44:53.560 --> 1:44:56.360 Like you know, collective action really is like your most 1:44:56.360 --> 1:44:59.439 powerful tool. Um all the other kind of like the 1:44:59.479 --> 1:45:02.519 grievance is not stuff. It's important and you can't let 1:45:02.520 --> 1:45:05.599 it go, but it's also like it's designed to kind 1:45:05.600 --> 1:45:09.720 of grind people down. So um, you know, the more 1:45:09.720 --> 1:45:12.720 collective action you take, like the more likely it is 1:45:12.760 --> 1:45:15.200 that you're going to be successful and keep people engaged 1:45:15.240 --> 1:45:20.240 and excited. Yeah, going back to what you were saying earlier, 1:45:20.240 --> 1:45:23.639 this might mind up being last episode depending on where 1:45:23.680 --> 1:45:26.720 this breaks down time wise, But yeah, I think it's 1:45:26.720 --> 1:45:29.439 also it's just this is going to take time and 1:45:29.560 --> 1:45:34.680 a lot of work, and I think it's it's it's 1:45:34.720 --> 1:45:37.960 important age to understand going in that this is a 1:45:37.960 --> 1:45:40.200 long and difficult process. It's not gonna happen overnight, and 1:45:40.240 --> 1:45:44.559 be that it's a lot of work, Like you have 1:45:44.600 --> 1:45:46.519 to there's there's a lot of things that you have 1:45:46.560 --> 1:45:48.280 to do. There's a lot of sort of logistics. There's 1:45:48.280 --> 1:45:51.640 a lot of talking, there's a lot of like negotiating, 1:45:51.640 --> 1:45:53.240 there's a lot of sort of I mean just just 1:45:53.360 --> 1:45:57.360 even I don't know, before anything gets off the ground, 1:45:57.520 --> 1:45:59.639 you have to spend enormous amounts of time and effort 1:45:59.680 --> 1:46:02.760 doing off And that's that's that's like it's just the 1:46:02.800 --> 1:46:06.479 reality of it. So yeah, there's there's no there's there's 1:46:06.479 --> 1:46:09.320 no there's there's there's there's no magic bullet like there's 1:46:09.320 --> 1:46:12.200 no sort of yeah, there's there's no just like one 1:46:12.320 --> 1:46:14.920 thing you can do that like magically makes a you 1:46:14.960 --> 1:46:18.000 need appear. It's a bunch of people coming together and 1:46:18.520 --> 1:46:21.720 like fighting for it for a long time. Yeah, I 1:46:21.760 --> 1:46:23.519 think that that's like the main thing is like you're 1:46:23.880 --> 1:46:27.360 it's it's a cliche. That's like it's a marathon, not 1:46:27.439 --> 1:46:31.840 as prints. Um. Sometimes I hate when people say that ship, 1:46:31.920 --> 1:46:36.440 but it's true, like you you really do have like, um, 1:46:36.560 --> 1:46:38.280 you're in it for the long haul, and a lot 1:46:38.280 --> 1:46:42.160 of times it's like your people are ready to do 1:46:42.320 --> 1:46:45.599 these things when they're like this is like I don't 1:46:45.640 --> 1:46:47.479 want you know, it's one thing to pop up in 1:46:47.479 --> 1:46:49.599 a place and be there for like you know, six months, 1:46:49.600 --> 1:46:51.880 to be like I need a we need a union. Right. 1:46:52.640 --> 1:46:54.960 No one you know that works in that place trust you. 1:46:55.000 --> 1:46:57.400 They don't know who you are. Like, they're not going 1:46:57.439 --> 1:47:00.280 to follow you to do anything or you know, or 1:47:00.400 --> 1:47:04.160 take you you know, follow your lead. Um. It's the 1:47:04.200 --> 1:47:06.960 people who are like, I'm gonna be here, this is 1:47:07.000 --> 1:47:08.960 my this is where I want to be, and you know, 1:47:09.080 --> 1:47:11.120 this is a I want to be here for the 1:47:11.160 --> 1:47:13.240 next few years. And think of it as like a 1:47:13.360 --> 1:47:16.120 long term investment in the quality of your life and 1:47:16.120 --> 1:47:20.519 the quality of life at your workplace, because to win, 1:47:20.640 --> 1:47:24.040 you have to be sticking around, you know. And I 1:47:24.080 --> 1:47:27.679 think that's where it gets tough with people who are 1:47:27.800 --> 1:47:32.360 in like precarious types of employment or different types of 1:47:32.439 --> 1:47:34.519 and that's where you have to start looking at alternate 1:47:34.520 --> 1:47:38.280 ways to organize because maybe you're a precarious worker who 1:47:38.320 --> 1:47:41.839 does maybe you drive, like for a right here service, 1:47:41.920 --> 1:47:44.479 or maybe you like do delivery or like you know, 1:47:45.080 --> 1:47:47.559 um for an app or whatever you delivery for an app. 1:47:47.600 --> 1:47:51.080 And I think the thing is is like that sort 1:47:51.120 --> 1:47:54.360 of thing because of how and you know, these aren't 1:47:54.479 --> 1:47:56.760 like new forms of work. This is actually really old 1:47:56.760 --> 1:47:59.160 forms of work that are just like been like rebranded 1:47:59.160 --> 1:48:03.840 by tech bros decided like they're like they're like they're great. 1:48:03.880 --> 1:48:07.439 Genius is like rebranding the kind of like precarious work 1:48:07.479 --> 1:48:10.080 that was really like prominent like throughout the nineteenth century. 1:48:10.640 --> 1:48:12.519 And it's like, so then what do you do is 1:48:12.520 --> 1:48:16.160 you come up with ways to organize people regardless of 1:48:16.320 --> 1:48:18.720 like oh, like i'm you know, I work for this, 1:48:19.040 --> 1:48:21.519 like I work for lift or work for Uber and 1:48:21.560 --> 1:48:24.000 it kind of switches back and forth. Like the thing is, 1:48:24.040 --> 1:48:26.720 it's like that's when you start talking with you know, 1:48:27.680 --> 1:48:31.760 rideshare drivers across different like apps or whatever, and then 1:48:31.800 --> 1:48:35.040 you come up with a way to work collectively, um 1:48:35.080 --> 1:48:38.840 to to change sorts of things. And sometimes that's it's 1:48:38.840 --> 1:48:41.559 gonna be it's gonna be tough, you know. And that's 1:48:41.560 --> 1:48:43.240 when I kind of look at those that sort of 1:48:43.240 --> 1:48:45.880 thing is like this is where it's a learning experience 1:48:46.479 --> 1:48:48.840 and maybe I don't get everything I want, but you 1:48:48.880 --> 1:48:50.840 know it's really important. I mean, it's like building these 1:48:50.880 --> 1:48:54.240 networks of people who care about like what they're working. 1:48:54.240 --> 1:48:57.320 Conditions are like, and you can pull things off maybe 1:48:57.439 --> 1:49:00.400 unexpectedly that you didn't expect. We're going to be like 1:49:00.560 --> 1:49:04.160 the thing, you know, like you may start with something 1:49:04.160 --> 1:49:06.080 that looks like a union drive and then you end 1:49:06.160 --> 1:49:10.519 up with something that looks like very different. It could 1:49:10.560 --> 1:49:12.559 you know, could go in all sorts of different directions. 1:49:12.560 --> 1:49:16.559 So um, you know there and look outside of the US, 1:49:16.640 --> 1:49:20.240 you know, their countries where like in UM, I think 1:49:20.240 --> 1:49:24.280 that there have been some pretty successful delivery app organ 1:49:24.360 --> 1:49:29.519 to organizing in London, UM. And you know, I think 1:49:29.560 --> 1:49:35.160 that to a certain extent, like formal extent, US unions 1:49:35.240 --> 1:49:39.759 have not been very successful in organizing those workers because 1:49:39.840 --> 1:49:46.160 it doesn't it's hard to do from the extant business 1:49:46.240 --> 1:49:49.120 union model, and so it's like it's one of those 1:49:49.160 --> 1:49:51.920 things where you know, it used to be, you know, 1:49:52.040 --> 1:49:55.519 they would have like you know, the fight would be 1:49:55.560 --> 1:50:01.160 instead of trying to get like workers are like a 1:50:01.600 --> 1:50:04.240 contract at a particular like work site, you set up 1:50:04.280 --> 1:50:06.439 a hiring hall, like the i w W would set 1:50:06.520 --> 1:50:10.400 up hiring halls, UM and like you know for lumberjacks 1:50:10.400 --> 1:50:13.080 and that sort of thing, and those workers are always precarious, right, 1:50:13.160 --> 1:50:16.200 but they would go trying set up so that like 1:50:16.280 --> 1:50:18.920 people would only take jobs out of the hiring hall 1:50:19.000 --> 1:50:21.200 and that's how they would control their like their work. 1:50:21.200 --> 1:50:24.439 And I think that more unions needed. And part of 1:50:24.479 --> 1:50:29.000 this is, like would if there's any union people out 1:50:29.040 --> 1:50:30.920 there who are in staff and that sort of thing. 1:50:31.000 --> 1:50:34.280 Is like, there needs to be a serious re examination 1:50:34.320 --> 1:50:36.680 of how we do unions in this country. And I 1:50:36.720 --> 1:50:39.840 think a lot of people inside unions understand that, but 1:50:39.880 --> 1:50:42.200 no one has quite done it yet in a way 1:50:42.240 --> 1:50:45.200 that's effective. And I think that we really do need 1:50:45.240 --> 1:50:47.439 to kind of re evaluate that sort of stuff. So 1:50:48.240 --> 1:50:51.400 just you know, as someone who's going into like a 1:50:51.439 --> 1:50:56.240 new sort of organizing campaign, just understand that like getting 1:50:56.280 --> 1:50:59.599 the union contract isn't necessarily the end gold end goal 1:50:59.720 --> 1:51:01.559 is to try and get your boss to do things 1:51:01.840 --> 1:51:04.559 differently so that you're not like miserable at work. And 1:51:04.840 --> 1:51:07.240 that might look like a contractor it might look like 1:51:08.160 --> 1:51:11.000 you know, a a one day like uh, you know, 1:51:11.080 --> 1:51:13.160 app strike or something like that. You know, you'll you'll 1:51:13.160 --> 1:51:15.400 figure you've got to figure out how it's gonna work. 1:51:15.479 --> 1:51:20.680 Like with you know, in healthcare, you know, there's this 1:51:20.720 --> 1:51:23.479 idea that like, you know, there's the gold standard of 1:51:23.520 --> 1:51:25.320 the strike where you strike until we win and we're 1:51:25.360 --> 1:51:27.479 out for like you know, like two or three months. Well, 1:51:27.520 --> 1:51:30.200 the problem is is that there's an industry of scab 1:51:30.439 --> 1:51:33.760 nurses and healthcare workers where at any point they can 1:51:33.800 --> 1:51:36.720 bring in people to replace enough of you that a 1:51:36.760 --> 1:51:40.040 hospital can maintain operations. And unless you're super organized like 1:51:40.080 --> 1:51:44.400 they were up in um Buffalo, uh with c W 1:51:44.560 --> 1:51:48.040 A like, and have a big network of people and 1:51:48.040 --> 1:51:51.040 you're ready to go to like you know, like picket 1:51:51.040 --> 1:51:54.840 board members houses and that sort of stuff. Um, those 1:51:54.840 --> 1:51:57.040 long term strikes can end in defeat where you end 1:51:57.080 --> 1:52:00.960 up with you know, you're all replaced with scabs and 1:52:00.960 --> 1:52:03.719 and it sucks, and it's happened, and then you gotta 1:52:03.800 --> 1:52:05.360 I guess you gotta learn from it, you know, like 1:52:05.439 --> 1:52:11.479 we've there was a famous strike in Minnesota with healthcare 1:52:11.520 --> 1:52:13.800 workers and they went out and they were out for 1:52:13.880 --> 1:52:15.880 months and months and there are people on you know, 1:52:15.960 --> 1:52:17.960 going to the SUP kitchen to feed their kids and stuff, 1:52:18.000 --> 1:52:22.519 and they lost right. And so my union tends to 1:52:22.560 --> 1:52:24.519 do one day strikes, but instead of just being at 1:52:24.560 --> 1:52:28.120 one hospital, we organized multiple hospitals across the country so 1:52:28.160 --> 1:52:30.760 that it soaks up all the like scat drives up 1:52:30.960 --> 1:52:34.920 right scabs and it really like that. I think ideas 1:52:35.000 --> 1:52:38.960 like intermittent strikes were actually a really powerful tool back when, 1:52:39.080 --> 1:52:41.559 you know, back when it was the c I oh, 1:52:41.560 --> 1:52:43.120 and it was like we're going to just stop working 1:52:43.280 --> 1:52:45.840 until he fixed this problem. UM. And that's why they 1:52:45.840 --> 1:52:47.680 made them illegal. And it takes a lot of work 1:52:47.720 --> 1:52:49.400 to pull them off. But if you can't pull them off, 1:52:49.439 --> 1:52:51.160 that could be an effective way. And if you're not 1:52:51.200 --> 1:52:54.200 in a union, maybe getting people down for a one 1:52:54.280 --> 1:52:57.720 day like work stoppage at your work or even you know, 1:52:58.120 --> 1:53:01.120 maybe it's like we're not starting our shift right. I've 1:53:01.120 --> 1:53:02.760 been in the room. I've been in the room where 1:53:02.760 --> 1:53:04.519 it's like, no, we're not going out to take that 1:53:04.600 --> 1:53:08.240 assignment until like we get our staff situation set up 1:53:08.479 --> 1:53:12.360 like fixed. And you know, sometimes it's just those collective 1:53:12.800 --> 1:53:17.840 actions are you know, it's not the end, Like there's 1:53:17.880 --> 1:53:20.240 no end. I'll be all one size fits all solution, 1:53:20.920 --> 1:53:23.759 just be ready to kind of like explore what it means, 1:53:24.000 --> 1:53:27.000 get all the resources you can. There's groups like there's 1:53:27.040 --> 1:53:29.200 still like the Industrial Workers of the World, which has 1:53:29.320 --> 1:53:32.439 really good organizing trainings o T one oh one and 1:53:32.560 --> 1:53:35.640 one oh two. I'll pitch that as a member of 1:53:36.040 --> 1:53:38.080 as a also a dual carding member of the i 1:53:38.280 --> 1:53:43.200 w w UM. But there's also Labor Notes UM and 1:53:43.360 --> 1:53:46.680 other groups like Essential Workers Organizing Committee. That's sort of 1:53:46.760 --> 1:53:49.360 things that like give you good like rundowns on how 1:53:49.400 --> 1:53:54.840 to do the organizing work. So just be careful, always 1:53:54.880 --> 1:53:58.760 be careful. Be aware that people are afraid. Bosses use 1:53:58.880 --> 1:54:02.680 fear um to scare you guys, to scare everybody, and like, 1:54:02.760 --> 1:54:05.680 the the more people on board with a thing, the 1:54:05.840 --> 1:54:08.160 less fear. Like it's amazing when you're running up into 1:54:08.200 --> 1:54:10.559 a strike and you're really firing on all cylinders and 1:54:10.640 --> 1:54:13.240 like everyone in your like work areas, like we're getting 1:54:13.240 --> 1:54:15.240 together to take a picture, like getting ready to go 1:54:15.280 --> 1:54:18.160 on strike, and it's like literally, I mean when we 1:54:18.200 --> 1:54:20.280 went on strike, when our hospital went on strike, it 1:54:20.320 --> 1:54:23.719 was the first time where like there was like nurses 1:54:23.760 --> 1:54:26.240 on one places the first time when all of us 1:54:26.240 --> 1:54:30.400 were in one place ever. And it's this massive like 1:54:30.760 --> 1:54:34.400 coming together thing experience. And it's really hard to describe 1:54:34.400 --> 1:54:37.680 when you when because you know, we're always griping at 1:54:37.720 --> 1:54:39.560 each other about this or that thing is like, but 1:54:39.640 --> 1:54:41.680 when you're actually all out there together at the same time, 1:54:41.680 --> 1:54:45.680 when you pull it off, it's really amazing. Um, it's hard, 1:54:45.800 --> 1:54:48.680 it's it's hard to describe, um, but when you do it, 1:54:48.680 --> 1:54:52.920 it's like it's like the purest drug. And so I've 1:54:52.960 --> 1:54:55.120 I've heard some people who are union skeptical be like, 1:54:55.120 --> 1:54:57.480 well you just experienced like the good ship, and like 1:54:57.520 --> 1:55:00.760 what about all the defeats, Like, well, get the little hits, 1:55:01.040 --> 1:55:03.520 get the little hits here and there, and get yourself 1:55:03.520 --> 1:55:04.960 to the point where you can do the big thing. 1:55:05.560 --> 1:55:07.840 You know, you're the whole thing is like getting people 1:55:07.880 --> 1:55:10.680 to do the thing is like the is it's like 1:55:10.760 --> 1:55:15.000 the perennial uh, you know, curse at the left, can 1:55:15.040 --> 1:55:18.000 you do it? Or curse of you know, like the 1:55:17.440 --> 1:55:22.480 the organizer activist or you know, whatever you wanna call it. 1:55:22.560 --> 1:55:25.080 You know, it's just but you know, if you don't 1:55:25.080 --> 1:55:29.400 do anything, nothing happens. You can all sit and complain 1:55:30.320 --> 1:55:32.880 and nothing changes. So you know, the only way to 1:55:32.960 --> 1:55:35.440 changes things is take those complaints and turn them into 1:55:35.480 --> 1:55:38.240 collective action. Yeah. I think I think that's that's that 1:55:38.360 --> 1:55:40.520 that that that that's that's a pretty good positive note 1:55:40.520 --> 1:55:44.360 to end on. Just go do thing. Go do the 1:55:44.440 --> 1:55:48.600 thing now, stop tweets, stop tweeting, stop tweeting about it, 1:55:49.040 --> 1:55:55.080 Go do the thing. Um. Yeah, I think that's I Like, 1:55:55.160 --> 1:55:57.360 I guess one last thing, because I talked about social 1:55:57.400 --> 1:55:59.240 media and talk. You know, I talked smack. I Like, 1:55:59.400 --> 1:56:01.560 I've been off Twitter for some months now, is it 1:56:01.600 --> 1:56:05.280 really cleared my brain? But you know, um, being on 1:56:06.080 --> 1:56:10.000 finding the social media space where your your coworkers are 1:56:10.000 --> 1:56:13.400 at is really important. And that might mean setting up 1:56:13.440 --> 1:56:16.520 like a discord or you know what's app or a 1:56:16.560 --> 1:56:19.520 Facebook group. You can set up secret Facebook groups that 1:56:19.560 --> 1:56:22.240 no one can see. And yeah, like you like, Facebook 1:56:22.280 --> 1:56:26.920 will periodically shut them down. But like our hospital has 1:56:26.960 --> 1:56:29.240 like a like a Facebook group with like two thousand 1:56:29.320 --> 1:56:33.760 nurses and we and that's where we got really amped up. 1:56:34.320 --> 1:56:35.840 And it was a way for us to be talking 1:56:35.840 --> 1:56:39.320 with each other and talk each other through um, the 1:56:39.440 --> 1:56:42.320 stress of setting up you know this thing. And then also, 1:56:42.400 --> 1:56:46.960 like you know, people workers can't organize like like people 1:56:47.080 --> 1:56:50.760 will do organizing even if like they don't have like 1:56:50.840 --> 1:56:53.920 that full support. So like some coworkers, not coworkers, but 1:56:54.880 --> 1:56:57.280 members of my union went on strike at Cook County 1:56:57.360 --> 1:57:00.760 this year, and the whole thing was organized practice without 1:57:00.800 --> 1:57:05.160 like staff right because the staff were barred from being 1:57:05.240 --> 1:57:09.280 in meetings, like in person meetings because of COVID, and 1:57:09.320 --> 1:57:11.600 they couldn't go into the hospital because of COVID. So 1:57:13.440 --> 1:57:15.920 people were very pissed about how things have been going, 1:57:16.000 --> 1:57:19.240 and they were talking to each other and we organized 1:57:19.240 --> 1:57:22.840 that strike. They organized that strike on their own practically, Um, 1:57:22.880 --> 1:57:26.040 you know, it lined up. They were off there. You know, 1:57:26.280 --> 1:57:29.080 they didn't have that no strike clause like operating at 1:57:29.080 --> 1:57:32.240 the time, and um, and they pulled off like a 1:57:32.440 --> 1:57:36.280 pretty like a significant victory um from their one day 1:57:36.320 --> 1:57:39.440 strike and it really um really you know, like got 1:57:39.520 --> 1:57:42.840 them some big wins. But and they didn't they didn't 1:57:42.840 --> 1:57:45.040 need the union to do it for them. You know, 1:57:45.040 --> 1:57:48.160 the union was kind of like a facilitation tool rather 1:57:48.240 --> 1:57:50.040 than like the thing that got it done. I think 1:57:50.080 --> 1:57:51.480 that's the other thing is that there are people who 1:57:51.520 --> 1:57:54.360 think that like it's all dependent on like having like 1:57:54.400 --> 1:57:58.640 this hero staffer sort of thing situation, and at the 1:57:58.720 --> 1:58:00.600 end of the day, like if it's out the workers 1:58:00.640 --> 1:58:06.840 doing it themselves, nothing's going to happen. Yeah. Yeah, the power, 1:58:06.960 --> 1:58:09.240 the power is with the working class itself, and if 1:58:09.240 --> 1:58:13.080 the working class doesn't use it, nothing will ever happen. Yeah, 1:58:13.120 --> 1:58:16.000 but if it does use it, I will trail off here. 1:58:18.480 --> 1:58:22.080 Sounds good. So, John, is is there any place that 1:58:22.120 --> 1:58:27.120 you want people to find things that you do? Like, Yeah, 1:58:28.360 --> 1:58:32.320 I used to be on Twitter. UM periodically will show 1:58:32.440 --> 1:58:37.920 up on h varn vlog, which is uh see Derek 1:58:38.000 --> 1:58:44.240 Varnes m vlog on YouTube. UM there's I recommend people 1:58:45.320 --> 1:58:48.360 h listen to. There's a group of podcasts called the 1:58:48.360 --> 1:58:55.080 Emancipatient Network. I really like their stuff, specially UM. There's 1:58:55.200 --> 1:58:58.200 a what's it called General Intellect Unit which talks about 1:58:58.200 --> 1:59:02.240 like cybernetics and the lab. UM. They have a lot 1:59:02.280 --> 1:59:05.080 of particularly cool stuff that's just come out recently about 1:59:05.240 --> 1:59:08.120 UM about strategy that I think is really important for 1:59:08.120 --> 1:59:12.160 everyone to understand. UM. I was a founding member of 1:59:12.320 --> 1:59:16.000 the uh Libertarian Socialist Caucus at d s A, but 1:59:16.040 --> 1:59:19.120 I'm no longer in d s A. There's a but 1:59:19.240 --> 1:59:21.400 that group is still kind of kicking around. We're coming 1:59:21.480 --> 1:59:25.080 up with new things. Uh. Then then I guess like, UM, 1:59:25.240 --> 1:59:29.360 the University Chicago Labor Council is a group that I 1:59:29.400 --> 1:59:32.320 spend a lot of time with. And there's also a 1:59:32.320 --> 1:59:34.680 Tennants United High Park with LAN, which is a tenant 1:59:34.720 --> 1:59:42.400 union that you helped set up. And yeah, so you know, UM, 1:59:42.600 --> 1:59:45.520 go out there and you know, don't don't listen to 1:59:45.520 --> 1:59:48.200 me or don't try and find follow me. Go like 1:59:48.880 --> 1:59:51.120 you go figure it out and you're our neighborhood and yeah, 1:59:51.560 --> 1:59:53.760 and set up a mill, set up a million different 1:59:53.800 --> 1:59:57.120 you know, like labor councils and worker committees and tenant 1:59:57.200 --> 2:00:01.560 unions that. Yeah, like Bill, build power. That's why I 2:00:01.560 --> 2:00:04.760 think I sometimes we are afraid of the term power. 2:00:04.800 --> 2:00:08.160 I think that power is that it's best when it's everybody. 2:00:08.240 --> 2:00:09.920 And so I guess I might say it's like, go 2:00:09.960 --> 2:00:14.000 out there and build community and worker power, and um, 2:00:14.360 --> 2:00:18.480 don't be afraid because fear is the one thing that 2:00:18.520 --> 2:00:22.560 they've got to wave over our heads. And sometimes you 2:00:22.680 --> 2:00:24.880 just got to take that jump and do the thing. 2:00:25.120 --> 2:00:27.440 And uh and that's how we're hopefully going to win 2:00:27.520 --> 2:00:31.040 one day in the world. Yep. And you can do 2:00:31.120 --> 2:00:33.960 this just like all of these things, everything we've been 2:00:33.960 --> 2:00:37.760 talking about for the past like two hours, these were 2:00:37.800 --> 2:00:41.160 all just done by ordinary people. Like there's there's there's 2:00:41.240 --> 2:00:43.560 it's all it's all done my random people. And you 2:00:43.560 --> 2:00:46.240 know that random person can be you. You just have 2:00:46.320 --> 2:00:52.440 to go and do go do the thing. Yeah. So yeah, 2:00:52.480 --> 2:00:55.840 this that this has been It could happen here. You 2:00:55.880 --> 2:00:58.400 can find us on Twitter at Happened Here pod and 2:00:58.440 --> 2:01:03.400 also on Instagram. There and Uh, yeah, there's other cool 2:01:03.440 --> 2:01:06.960 Zone stuff. Oh, I guess yeah, we there's there's there's 2:01:06.960 --> 2:01:09.360 a new show called Mega Corp that that we have 2:01:09.680 --> 2:01:12.480 that's about how corporations are bad and the first seasons 2:01:12.480 --> 2:01:16.040 about Amazon. It's out now. Okay, it just doesn't have 2:01:16.160 --> 2:01:19.080 a Twitter, but yeah, it's It's called Mega Corp. And 2:01:19.080 --> 2:01:34.560 you can find it wherever fine podcasts are distributed. Yes, okay, bye. 2:01:39.880 --> 2:01:43.680 The art world it is essentially a money laundering business. 2:01:44.200 --> 2:01:46.960 The best fakes are still hanging off people's walls. You know, 2:01:47.080 --> 2:01:50.600 they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes. I'm 2:01:50.600 --> 2:01:55.000 out like Baldwin. And this is a podcast about deception, greed, 2:01:55.120 --> 2:01:58.440 and forgery in the art world. You knew the painting 2:01:58.520 --> 2:02:05.560 was fake. Um. Listen to Art Fraud starting February one 2:02:05.760 --> 2:02:09.720 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 2:02:09.960 --> 2:02:21.400 you get your podcasts. I'm Evrodsky, author of the New 2:02:21.480 --> 2:02:24.680 York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 2:02:25.000 --> 2:02:28.800 activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 2:02:29.040 --> 2:02:32.480 And I'm Dr Addina Rukar, a Harvard physician and medical 2:02:32.480 --> 2:02:35.800 correspondent with an expertise and the science of stress, resilience, 2:02:35.920 --> 2:02:39.080 mental health, and burnout. We're so excited to share our 2:02:39.120 --> 2:02:42.680 podcast Time Out, a production of I Heart Podcasts and 2:02:42.760 --> 2:02:46.280 Hell of Sunshine. We're uncovering why society makes it so 2:02:46.360 --> 2:02:48.680 hard for women to treat their time with the value 2:02:48.680 --> 2:02:52.280 it deserves. So take this time out with us. Listen 2:02:52.320 --> 2:02:55.080 to Time Out, a fair play podcast on the I 2:02:55.200 --> 2:02:59.560 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 2:03:06.600 --> 2:03:10.120 Welcome everybody too. It could happen here. UM podcast about 2:03:10.600 --> 2:03:12.440 I don't know how things are kind of kind of 2:03:12.520 --> 2:03:14.960 kind of crumbling and how we can maybe put it, 2:03:14.960 --> 2:03:18.280 put stuff, put stuff back together. And today I am 2:03:18.280 --> 2:03:22.440 excited to talk with a senior Let's see what is 2:03:22.600 --> 2:03:24.960 what is what? What is the actual? What's actual term? 2:03:25.000 --> 2:03:34.520 I saw it? A senior programs strategist at Wikimedia, Alex Stinson. Hello, greetings, Hi, 2:03:34.800 --> 2:03:37.520 it's so good to be here. I'm very excited about 2:03:37.520 --> 2:03:40.080 our talk today because I mean, this should this should 2:03:40.160 --> 2:03:43.720 surprise nobody that I used to I used to be 2:03:43.800 --> 2:03:47.760 a Wikipedia editor back in the day. Not not shocking 2:03:47.800 --> 2:03:51.440 at all, if if, if you know me. Um, but yeah, 2:03:51.520 --> 2:03:54.760 we're gonna be talking about what kind of Wikipedia just 2:03:54.800 --> 2:03:59.440 itself and then also, uh, climate misinformation and disinformation and 2:03:59.480 --> 2:04:03.320 how we can maybe create a better understanding of climate 2:04:03.400 --> 2:04:05.800 change in its effects across kind of the world, and 2:04:05.840 --> 2:04:08.640 how digital information works. Those are all kind of topics 2:04:08.680 --> 2:04:12.960 we talk about often enough, but never within the actual 2:04:13.000 --> 2:04:17.120 context of like Wikipedia as an entity. Um, so I 2:04:17.120 --> 2:04:19.840 guess let's let's just start there with with Wikipedia, and 2:04:19.960 --> 2:04:22.920 like for those who don't maybe maybe people like use website, 2:04:22.960 --> 2:04:24.320 but they're not quite sure what it is, Like how 2:04:24.360 --> 2:04:27.160 how do you actually describe what Wikipedia is? Because it 2:04:27.280 --> 2:04:31.240 is like an interesting kind of amorphous entity. It's so 2:04:31.320 --> 2:04:34.560 many things. Um. I think most people are used to 2:04:34.760 --> 2:04:37.520 thinking about Wikipedia is like the fact checking device. Like 2:04:37.680 --> 2:04:40.080 I have a bar argument with my friends and I 2:04:40.120 --> 2:04:45.160 pull out my phone and yeah, yeahs website at me. Right, Um, 2:04:45.480 --> 2:04:49.800 it's a lot of things. It's three language Wikipedia's. Actually 2:04:49.840 --> 2:04:52.680 it's not just one. Each of these communities has its 2:04:52.720 --> 2:04:57.160 own editorial community. Um. Last I checked, it's like sixty 2:04:57.200 --> 2:05:00.840 million articles across the languages. It's it's really it's a 2:05:00.920 --> 2:05:04.280 lot of different content. Um. And a topic can be 2:05:04.400 --> 2:05:07.520 on each of those Wikipedia's right. Um, And this is 2:05:07.760 --> 2:05:10.480 important as we start talking about disinformation, is like each 2:05:10.520 --> 2:05:13.800 Wikipedia because it's edited by people in that language, and 2:05:13.840 --> 2:05:17.800 it's written by that language community. Um. You know, each 2:05:17.880 --> 2:05:21.760 article is different and it have different perspectives. Um. Two 2:05:21.840 --> 2:05:26.320 hundred eighty thousand volunteers editing every month. So this is 2:05:26.360 --> 2:05:29.720 a lot of people, right. But the bulk of that's 2:05:29.760 --> 2:05:33.720 happening on English Wikipedia and some of the larger languages 2:05:33.800 --> 2:05:37.320 that are spoken across multiple cultural context And then there's 2:05:37.320 --> 2:05:40.760 also a lot of other content sitting behind Wikipedia. So 2:05:40.800 --> 2:05:44.720 there's a media repository, um. And there's a we called 2:05:44.760 --> 2:05:50.000 Wikimedia Commons, and there's a database called wiki Data, which 2:05:50.080 --> 2:05:52.680 kind of powers those little knowledge graphs on the right 2:05:52.720 --> 2:05:55.320 side of Google and a whole bunch of other parts 2:05:55.360 --> 2:06:00.080 of the Internet. Wikidata shows up in Amazon, Alexa and 2:06:00.280 --> 2:06:02.840 all kinds of other places, right. And and so it's 2:06:02.880 --> 2:06:06.320 it's we're not just like one website. It's many websites, 2:06:06.600 --> 2:06:10.840 lots of knowledge, lots of platforms, lots of context. Um. 2:06:11.080 --> 2:06:14.240 And we'll come back to that more as we talked. Yeah, 2:06:14.240 --> 2:06:16.280 what really interesting part of it is like I don't know, 2:06:16.400 --> 2:06:21.720 my my personal kind of social leanings. I generally kind 2:06:21.720 --> 2:06:26.240 of like things that are more decentralized in general. Um. 2:06:26.440 --> 2:06:28.960 Other other hosts in the podcast are generally kind of 2:06:29.520 --> 2:06:34.440 on like the progressive left libertarian spectrum. Um. And one 2:06:34.440 --> 2:06:38.080 thing I do really appreciate about Wikipedia is is it's 2:06:38.080 --> 2:06:40.600 more like it's it's not I I don't think it's 2:06:40.600 --> 2:06:45.760 like open source, but its the way it has decentralized 2:06:45.840 --> 2:06:48.080 editing and all that kind of stuff. It's just a 2:06:48.120 --> 2:06:50.760 really interesting model of of like what if a lot 2:06:50.760 --> 2:06:53.560 more stuff worked this way? And I'm not sure like 2:06:53.600 --> 2:06:55.800 how how much of like a decentralization focus is there, 2:06:55.840 --> 2:06:59.200 like consciously at people at like the foundation and people 2:06:59.200 --> 2:07:01.280 who try to like act really like run it behind 2:07:01.280 --> 2:07:04.520 the scenes and stuff. Yeah. So Wikipedia grows out of 2:07:04.560 --> 2:07:07.280 the like open source movement and the kind of early 2:07:07.360 --> 2:07:09.640 days of the Internet. Right, this idea that like knowledge 2:07:09.640 --> 2:07:12.440 wants to be free, technology wants to be free, software 2:07:12.440 --> 2:07:15.320 wants to be free. Um, let's let's use the legal 2:07:15.360 --> 2:07:19.240 infrastructure to like create freedom, right uh in that sense. 2:07:19.400 --> 2:07:22.080 And then there's also the free as in like anyone 2:07:22.120 --> 2:07:25.000 can edit, and then the free to like do whatever 2:07:25.040 --> 2:07:27.600 you want out there in the world. Um. There there's 2:07:27.960 --> 2:07:30.200 people are like free as in beer and free as 2:07:30.240 --> 2:07:33.760 in speech, right uh. And those things are those things 2:07:33.760 --> 2:07:36.960 are also there's they're always intention uh and they're kind 2:07:36.960 --> 2:07:39.200 of working. And as you can imagine, especially when you 2:07:39.240 --> 2:07:44.800 get outside of kind of multicultural Internet spaces like English Wikipedia, um, 2:07:45.080 --> 2:07:47.880 it can get challenging. Like if you're in Croatia and 2:07:47.960 --> 2:07:51.920 everyone is speaking Croatian, there's a very small bubble in 2:07:51.960 --> 2:07:55.520 which to create that Wikipedia, right, um. And so it's 2:07:55.560 --> 2:07:58.839 interesting in that sense. Um. I think there's also another 2:07:59.160 --> 2:08:01.640 part of Wikipedia that a lot of people don't see, 2:08:01.640 --> 2:08:05.000 which is the movement behind it. So there's the editorial communities. 2:08:05.040 --> 2:08:07.760 People show up and make edits. Um. But because there's 2:08:07.760 --> 2:08:11.000 this ideology that you're talking about, this like decentralized, like 2:08:11.080 --> 2:08:13.440 we need to share knowledge or culture or language on 2:08:13.440 --> 2:08:18.000 the Internet, there's also a whole social movement sitting behind 2:08:18.040 --> 2:08:21.840 the scenes. Uh. And there there's a podcast recently dot 2:08:21.880 --> 2:08:25.840 com The Wikipedia Story that kind of captured that the 2:08:26.000 --> 2:08:29.000 essence of that, um. And it's it's a lot of 2:08:29.000 --> 2:08:32.680 people like myself, So I started editing in high school. 2:08:34.680 --> 2:08:37.440 Yeah yeah, one of those like, oh I know how 2:08:37.440 --> 2:08:39.720 to click the edit button and I figure out how 2:08:39.720 --> 2:08:41.440 to use the Internet and that kind of thing. But 2:08:41.480 --> 2:08:45.240 there's a lot of people that like the intuitiveness of 2:08:45.280 --> 2:08:47.879 clicking and edit button on a piece of open source 2:08:48.160 --> 2:08:52.000 software to create content is just not It's not clear, right, 2:08:52.040 --> 2:08:54.080 And so you have to organize and invite people in 2:08:54.800 --> 2:08:57.000 and so we have a whole movement that does that too. 2:08:57.160 --> 2:09:01.200 That there's about a d organizations around the world that 2:09:01.280 --> 2:09:07.440 we organize events, work with libraries and museums and educational institutions, 2:09:07.560 --> 2:09:11.839 and so there's always this um kind of interesting dynamic 2:09:11.840 --> 2:09:15.600 where our values, which is this like open software platform 2:09:15.920 --> 2:09:19.360 stuff has also lived in our practice, in our outreach, 2:09:19.480 --> 2:09:23.680 like creating change through society by sharing knowledge and education. Um. 2:09:23.800 --> 2:09:26.440 And so I think, yeah, it's it's it's an interesting 2:09:26.720 --> 2:09:29.600 it's an interesting dynamic. Yeah, I think that does create 2:09:29.600 --> 2:09:33.640 a really oftentimes beautiful reflection. It can it can have 2:09:33.640 --> 2:09:35.800 some dark sides different once in a while, but it 2:09:35.880 --> 2:09:37.600 is it is really nice to have like kind of 2:09:37.640 --> 2:09:40.960 the ideology driving it being reflected in the actions of 2:09:41.000 --> 2:09:44.120 operating it and spreading it and that kind of thing. Um. 2:09:44.160 --> 2:09:47.280 So this is something we kind of briefly touched on already, 2:09:47.360 --> 2:09:49.640 but I think I'd like to move on to kind 2:09:49.680 --> 2:09:54.520 of why like how climate change and broader like social 2:09:54.560 --> 2:09:58.800 issues are covered on Wikipedia because you already mentioned like 2:09:59.280 --> 2:10:02.520 it's kind because there's not a Wikipedia, there's many based 2:10:02.560 --> 2:10:05.080 on different languages in places. It feels like to me, 2:10:05.440 --> 2:10:08.240 whenever social issues kind of get covered on Wikipedia, it's 2:10:08.240 --> 2:10:10.520 going to be in some part like a local reflection 2:10:10.600 --> 2:10:13.480 of whatever is in that area. You know, if if 2:10:13.520 --> 2:10:16.800 there's like a white liberal writing articles in New York, 2:10:17.160 --> 2:10:20.400 it's gonna be different than someone you know, halfway across 2:10:20.400 --> 2:10:23.960 the world writing them in you know, a much smaller country. 2:10:24.040 --> 2:10:26.520 Let's say, like Belarus, who's under like what I would 2:10:26.560 --> 2:10:30.400 call a dictatorship. Um, so that's gonna change kind of 2:10:30.400 --> 2:10:33.760 the nature of what people are making because of that 2:10:33.840 --> 2:10:36.120 kind of divide. So how how does that kind of 2:10:36.160 --> 2:10:39.800 crop up? And is there any like solutions to that 2:10:40.200 --> 2:10:42.960 or because because the because of the decentralized thing, it's like, 2:10:43.120 --> 2:10:47.120 how much can we like impose like who like I'm 2:10:47.120 --> 2:10:49.240 i'm I'm I'm not in Belarus? How much can I 2:10:49.240 --> 2:10:52.760 impose what I want their Wikipedia to look like? Yeah, 2:10:53.120 --> 2:10:56.440 there's kind of two or three dynamics you're you're touching 2:10:56.440 --> 2:11:00.360 on here. The first is because they're kind of an 2:11:00.400 --> 2:11:03.600 intention bias, Like something comes up in the news and 2:11:03.640 --> 2:11:07.600 our Wikipedia community like people are within minutes of breaking 2:11:07.640 --> 2:11:11.080 news stories are usually like editing the page, working to 2:11:11.120 --> 2:11:13.760 improve it. Right. Um, So if things show up in 2:11:13.840 --> 2:11:18.480 the you know, European American press, uh, it's very likely, 2:11:18.840 --> 2:11:21.560 especially something like English Wikipedia will pick up on it 2:11:21.640 --> 2:11:25.640 and immediately cover it. And because there are multiple perspectives 2:11:25.800 --> 2:11:30.440 in those press usually um kind of the ideological uh 2:11:30.640 --> 2:11:34.360 kind of multi sided nice like works itself out because 2:11:34.360 --> 2:11:36.240 there's a lot of eyes and a lot of people 2:11:36.240 --> 2:11:40.600 who know how to edit there, right, um on in 2:11:40.760 --> 2:11:45.800 a kind of cultural linguistic geographic context where there's like 2:11:46.160 --> 2:11:48.920 one set of stories and there's not a lot of diversity. 2:11:49.480 --> 2:11:52.440 Um uh, this this happens. And and I'm going to 2:11:52.560 --> 2:11:55.080 refer to the Croattion Wikipedia because we actually had an 2:11:55.080 --> 2:11:59.040 external researcher look at Croatian Wikipedia, because part of it 2:11:59.080 --> 2:12:02.960 has been caught by by folks with kind of very 2:12:02.960 --> 2:12:06.920 ideological leanings in a way that's excluding others. And this 2:12:07.000 --> 2:12:09.480 is not good, right. It creates a very one sided 2:12:09.520 --> 2:12:14.280 information environment and it really reflects um kind of the 2:12:14.320 --> 2:12:18.360 news dynamic going on there. So when like breaking news happens, 2:12:18.480 --> 2:12:21.040 or when a topic like a social issue or not 2:12:21.160 --> 2:12:23.320 necess like climate change, is not a social issue, right, 2:12:23.360 --> 2:12:28.920 this is a global, like life threatening issue. UM. When 2:12:29.000 --> 2:12:33.080 when something becomes politicized, it's very easy for especially in 2:12:33.120 --> 2:12:35.760 smaller language wikipedias, for a few people to kind of 2:12:36.000 --> 2:12:41.640 swing the whole perspective on that. UM. So yeah, there's 2:12:41.680 --> 2:12:44.240 this breaking news issue and this is where are kind 2:12:44.240 --> 2:12:47.840 of organized communities are really important. So the example we 2:12:47.880 --> 2:12:51.000 when I point out of this working well, UM is 2:12:51.040 --> 2:12:54.440 in medicine. So are our medical community during the Bola 2:12:54.520 --> 2:12:59.000 outbreaks a few years back. UM in West Africa. We're 2:12:59.040 --> 2:13:03.560 able to organize both on English and then languages that 2:13:03.600 --> 2:13:07.400 were accessible for local communities, high quality coverage of the 2:13:07.440 --> 2:13:11.200 medical content because it's like has impact on people's lives, 2:13:11.320 --> 2:13:14.960 and so they recruited translators. They thought about, like what's 2:13:14.960 --> 2:13:18.920 a simple way to communicate the story, um in that context, 2:13:19.040 --> 2:13:23.200 and like what do the workers, the or the advocates 2:13:23.320 --> 2:13:26.240 or whoever on the ground who's working with that crisis, 2:13:26.840 --> 2:13:29.960 what knowledge do they need? Right? UM? And you see 2:13:30.080 --> 2:13:34.280 like other open technology movements do stuff like this, like 2:13:34.400 --> 2:13:38.160 humanitarian Open Streetmap has a similar kind of way of organizing. 2:13:38.200 --> 2:13:42.400 They're like, hey, there's a crisis happening, UM, let's pull 2:13:42.480 --> 2:13:44.840 people together from different parts of the world who have 2:13:44.960 --> 2:13:49.720 the right knowledge or skills and like address the knowledge gap. Um. 2:13:49.920 --> 2:13:53.600 So so you can solve it. It's just it's complicated. Um. 2:13:53.760 --> 2:13:56.360 And you know, we've been trying to address as a 2:13:56.400 --> 2:13:59.320 movement what we call the gender gap. So there's both 2:13:59.360 --> 2:14:03.960 less women editors as women's content on many of the wikis, 2:14:04.040 --> 2:14:08.120 and like, it's taken years, and it's very hard to organize, 2:14:08.680 --> 2:14:12.480 and even when there's investment in it, um, it's it's 2:14:12.600 --> 2:14:16.280 challenging to to make substantial progress because there might be 2:14:16.320 --> 2:14:19.480 contextual issues around it too. And so you can't just 2:14:19.600 --> 2:14:24.160 like drop in on a Central Asian language with a 2:14:24.760 --> 2:14:28.920 like Western perspective and expect to like change the culture 2:14:28.920 --> 2:14:31.240 of the wiki overnight. You have to engage with it 2:14:31.320 --> 2:14:34.920 consistently and be persistent and work on it over and 2:14:34.960 --> 2:14:37.280 over and over again. We are going to take a 2:14:37.440 --> 2:14:41.360 short break to hear a message from our lovely lovely 2:14:41.400 --> 2:14:47.360 advertisers unless it's exomobile again, but we will be back shortly, Okay, 2:14:47.440 --> 2:14:52.480 and we're back. Um. One one thing that we cover decently. 2:14:52.640 --> 2:14:55.920 Part of my job and and and and Robert Evans's 2:14:56.440 --> 2:15:00.040 job is disinformation and misinformation and how that's to a 2:15:00.160 --> 2:15:04.680 tough spreads online um, particularly you usually kind of linked 2:15:04.720 --> 2:15:08.160 to like political extremism um or conspiracy theories or you know, 2:15:08.440 --> 2:15:12.720 in that general kind of bubble um. And so what 2:15:12.720 --> 2:15:17.000 what type of kind of climate misinformation has really been 2:15:17.400 --> 2:15:21.400 festering on various you know wikipedias across the world really, 2:15:21.400 --> 2:15:22.840 because like we were just were talking about like these 2:15:22.880 --> 2:15:25.240 topics and how and how and like why it happens, 2:15:25.240 --> 2:15:27.960 but like what are the main types of misinformation or 2:15:28.040 --> 2:15:33.200 disinformation that is much more like prevalent? Yeah, Um, So 2:15:33.280 --> 2:15:38.000 the first is just kind of neglect of uh, content 2:15:38.440 --> 2:15:42.200 that's happening across the various things related to climate. Um. 2:15:42.240 --> 2:15:45.640 But we've identified on English Wikipedia over three thousand seven 2:15:45.880 --> 2:15:50.320 dred articles that are directly related to climate change. Uh. 2:15:50.480 --> 2:15:53.879 We don't have a very big editorial community in English 2:15:54.000 --> 2:15:57.200 on that topic. That's like interesting fluent in the science 2:15:57.320 --> 2:15:59.240 and fluent and the other stuff. And then you go 2:15:59.240 --> 2:16:02.200 out to the other languages and like some of the 2:16:02.280 --> 2:16:05.520 languages have like three thousand of them, some of them 2:16:05.560 --> 2:16:09.640 have like two hundred, right, um, And so there is 2:16:10.200 --> 2:16:13.640 both um and some of that content was like translated 2:16:13.680 --> 2:16:16.440 several years ago, right or five or ten years ago 2:16:16.480 --> 2:16:19.200 and yeah, you know, and like the climate rhetoric has 2:16:19.320 --> 2:16:23.640 really changed it and like numbers and statistics, all that 2:16:23.640 --> 2:16:25.960 stuff gets updated every year, and it's yeah, that is 2:16:26.000 --> 2:16:27.960 there is there's there's a lot to cap with and 2:16:28.040 --> 2:16:31.360 like reading the IPCC report or looking at any of 2:16:31.360 --> 2:16:34.280 the consensus science, there's like a lot of change that 2:16:34.320 --> 2:16:37.840 you have to be influent in, like science communication, you 2:16:37.879 --> 2:16:41.160 have to understand like where to look for the information. Um. 2:16:41.400 --> 2:16:45.200 And it's interesting. My partner is a Spanish language speaker 2:16:45.520 --> 2:16:49.000 and she was in a kind of workshop for journalists 2:16:49.360 --> 2:16:55.080 in Argentina for a climate communication and the workshop was like, oh, 2:16:55.160 --> 2:16:59.199 you should cite the Guardian, right, so even as to 2:16:59.200 --> 2:17:01.520 to kind of understand and this climate stuff. So a 2:17:01.560 --> 2:17:05.520 lot of these local language contexts, there aren't even good sources, 2:17:05.879 --> 2:17:08.560 and the sources they do have are often citing like 2:17:08.800 --> 2:17:12.160 the dominant narrative that's going on and like the anglophone 2:17:12.160 --> 2:17:15.920 news cycle, right, because there's not a lot of climate 2:17:15.920 --> 2:17:18.560 communication going on, and so there's just a lot of 2:17:18.680 --> 2:17:24.120 complexity involved in updating that much content all the time. Um. 2:17:24.200 --> 2:17:26.800 And so the bulk of the stuff that kind of 2:17:26.800 --> 2:17:29.680 creeps in is like this neglect. Right. It's like some 2:17:29.959 --> 2:17:33.480 dominant idea in the narrative just hasn't been updated, and 2:17:33.560 --> 2:17:36.000 like we need someone to update it. Um. And that's 2:17:36.040 --> 2:17:39.440 like an organizing problem, right, that's uh, Like we need 2:17:39.480 --> 2:17:42.320 more people who are science literate, who speak the local language, 2:17:42.400 --> 2:17:45.480 who understand how to edit Wikipedia. Um. And that's trainable, 2:17:45.600 --> 2:17:48.400 Like we can do that. Yeah. The reason that matters, 2:17:48.520 --> 2:17:51.640 the neglect matters is it stops people from making decisions 2:17:51.680 --> 2:17:55.320 about climate change because they don't have like an accurate 2:17:55.400 --> 2:17:58.640 sense of what we need to do, right, which is 2:17:59.120 --> 2:18:05.320 cut the falsephiel, increase increased resilience, do adaptation like actual 2:18:05.520 --> 2:18:10.040 political change right um. And so so that that's just 2:18:10.400 --> 2:18:13.200 it's a problem. Um. The other stuff is a bit 2:18:13.240 --> 2:18:17.120 more it's a little bit more complicated. Um. One of 2:18:17.160 --> 2:18:22.520 the things that happens is, as you know, there's quite 2:18:22.680 --> 2:18:26.720 a manipulation of narrative that has happened around climate change. 2:18:27.120 --> 2:18:32.520 There's this really great podcast by Amy Westervelt about how 2:18:32.560 --> 2:18:35.760 the fossil fuel industry like got its message into schools 2:18:35.920 --> 2:18:38.600 in the last three years in the US, and like 2:18:39.000 --> 2:18:41.960 that narrative is just so prevalent and so one of 2:18:42.000 --> 2:18:45.039 the things about wikipedias that we try to do a 2:18:45.120 --> 2:18:51.400 balance of positions. If there are reputable sources kind of 2:18:51.480 --> 2:18:54.879 describing or analyzing a topic, and this is back to 2:18:54.879 --> 2:19:00.280 your polarization question too. If they're reputable sources does gribing 2:19:00.280 --> 2:19:02.440 on topic, we try to give them equal weight and 2:19:02.560 --> 2:19:07.039 balance across the article. The problem with climate is that 2:19:07.120 --> 2:19:11.280 some of the narratives that look like reputable sources are 2:19:11.400 --> 2:19:16.160 just pumped out of fossil fuel industry funded think tanks, right, 2:19:16.640 --> 2:19:20.640 and these things are not truthful narratives, right. Um. And 2:19:20.760 --> 2:19:24.800 so the BBC ran an article, uh two weeks ago 2:19:25.640 --> 2:19:28.800 on kind of climate denial and some of these smaller languages, 2:19:29.720 --> 2:19:34.160 a smaller language wikipedias, and what they found was a 2:19:34.200 --> 2:19:37.480 lot of these narratives being given equal weight with the 2:19:37.520 --> 2:19:41.960 climate science. Um. And I took a look our community 2:19:42.040 --> 2:19:45.520 after that BBC article came out, started looking across all 2:19:45.560 --> 2:19:49.080 the language Wikipedia articles about just the main climate change page, 2:19:49.480 --> 2:19:54.200 and they found thirty one Wikipedia's that had some of 2:19:54.240 --> 2:20:00.600 that like equal weight of bad climate science. Interesting. Yeah, um, 2:20:00.720 --> 2:20:03.600 And you know the BBC article only found like five 2:20:03.680 --> 2:20:07.520 or ten, right, we found another lot a lot more yeah, yeah, yeah. 2:20:07.600 --> 2:20:11.840 And so it's it's like it's a really like these 2:20:11.879 --> 2:20:14.840 narratives just seep in and you know, again, I'm gonna 2:20:14.879 --> 2:20:19.200 go back to the Croatian example, Like if your media 2:20:19.320 --> 2:20:24.040 environment has been locked down by a certain political rhetoric, too, 2:20:24.920 --> 2:20:28.560 those narratives might have traveled from like the Anglo sphere 2:20:29.320 --> 2:20:34.560 into these other spaces and then gotten stuck, right, and 2:20:34.640 --> 2:20:40.000 it's just like keeps getting recycled, and so that causes delay. Um. 2:20:40.040 --> 2:20:44.560 And I was listening to your podcasts recently about soft 2:20:44.600 --> 2:20:49.800 climate denial, Like this is what's happening in other language environments, right, 2:20:50.000 --> 2:20:54.840 is people are rehearsing this misinformation. It seems like a 2:20:54.920 --> 2:21:00.000 valid position because it's been rehearsed so many times by 2:21:00.040 --> 2:21:03.560 by folks. Some people who are championing that position are 2:21:04.000 --> 2:21:08.160 like doing so unknowingly, and then the process, we're kind 2:21:08.160 --> 2:21:11.560 of disconnecting it entirely from the source of the information. 2:21:12.000 --> 2:21:16.720 And that is just it's it's really bad. One interesting 2:21:16.800 --> 2:21:19.840 thing that I thought of when you were bringing up 2:21:20.120 --> 2:21:22.960 like sourcing, how sourcing itself coming an issue in like 2:21:23.040 --> 2:21:25.680 in the States. There's kind of like a joke that 2:21:25.720 --> 2:21:29.120 like wicked, like when people use just Wikipedia as like 2:21:29.200 --> 2:21:31.200 as a source to be like they just they just 2:21:31.280 --> 2:21:33.560 link the article. But like that is the default for 2:21:33.600 --> 2:21:36.080 so many people when they begin begin a research project, 2:21:36.160 --> 2:21:38.000 is like, Okay, what's the what's the what is what 2:21:38.040 --> 2:21:41.440 does Wikipedia have on it? What's the sources Wikipedia uses? 2:21:42.000 --> 2:21:44.080 Um and kind of branch off from there. It's a 2:21:44.160 --> 2:21:47.039 very common thing. So I'm not sure what like how 2:21:47.200 --> 2:21:49.600 different internet culture will be different in in other countries, 2:21:49.920 --> 2:21:53.199 But if they do not, if they if they don't 2:21:53.240 --> 2:21:57.360 have like the base sourcing necessary to create like a 2:21:57.400 --> 2:22:01.200 decent home page article, then just sourcing from Wikipedia in 2:22:01.200 --> 2:22:04.320 the first place becomes so much harder. Um, because you 2:22:05.160 --> 2:22:07.920 were saying, like just use the Guardian is is like 2:22:08.040 --> 2:22:10.360 one of the things, like that's not horrible advice, but 2:22:10.360 --> 2:22:12.680 if it's only just from one thing, then that that's 2:22:12.680 --> 2:22:15.840 going to change the entire nature of like coverage and 2:22:15.920 --> 2:22:19.320 information on specific topics. Yeah. Yeah, I've had just be 2:22:19.440 --> 2:22:21.680 really interesting kind of thing that I never thought of 2:22:21.720 --> 2:22:27.120 before is how different countries wikipedias or like language with 2:22:27.120 --> 2:22:30.320 Wikipedia's will have will have like different sources. So then 2:22:30.560 --> 2:22:33.480 getting information from from the page it's just going to 2:22:33.600 --> 2:22:36.640 be so different. And like yeah, like like the whole, 2:22:36.640 --> 2:22:41.600 like the whole like teared of sourcing is just completely changed. Yeah, 2:22:41.680 --> 2:22:44.480 And and I think, like you know, in medicine, and 2:22:44.560 --> 2:22:48.400 most medical practitioners expect most of the medical literature to 2:22:48.480 --> 2:22:51.240 be in a handful of languages like English and Chinese 2:22:51.240 --> 2:22:53.640 and that kind of stuff, right, And like part of 2:22:53.680 --> 2:22:57.080 your professional work and part of like saving people's lives 2:22:57.280 --> 2:22:59.560 is being able to use those sources. And so if 2:22:59.560 --> 2:23:03.119 they metical Wikipedia article has a translation from like an 2:23:03.120 --> 2:23:07.760 English article into another language, and you're distributing that to 2:23:07.920 --> 2:23:10.920 medical practitioners and they find the citation and it's in 2:23:11.000 --> 2:23:13.800 English and they can go follow the source, Like that's 2:23:13.840 --> 2:23:16.200 not such a big deal. But with in a topic 2:23:16.240 --> 2:23:20.400 like climate UM, where the vast majority of the people 2:23:20.440 --> 2:23:23.640 that have to make decisions on this information do not 2:23:23.800 --> 2:23:26.920 have access to other languages. Maybe their access to English 2:23:26.959 --> 2:23:31.160 is through like machine translation Google or something like that. 2:23:31.640 --> 2:23:35.320 Like having not having sources in your local language, UM, 2:23:36.440 --> 2:23:39.440 or just having the sources that were translated from an 2:23:39.480 --> 2:23:42.840 English Wikipedia article, which happens a lot on these smaller 2:23:42.920 --> 2:23:47.879 language wikipedias, is kind of like not helpful for climate 2:23:47.879 --> 2:23:51.400 decision making. UM. And this is where it's UM and 2:23:51.640 --> 2:23:54.320 it's easy for example, and a lot of these like 2:23:54.440 --> 2:23:59.520 Eastern European languages or Central Asian UH languages for like 2:23:59.600 --> 2:24:05.280 a politically spun news site opinion about something to kind 2:24:05.280 --> 2:24:08.640 of creep in at the same level of of kind 2:24:08.640 --> 2:24:14.800 of UH validity, as as another as scientific research as 2:24:14.879 --> 2:24:19.200 the the you know, consensus understanding of the climate prices. 2:24:20.360 --> 2:24:22.720 So how how might I know we talked about like 2:24:22.720 --> 2:24:26.400 like trainings for like journalists and people to start editing 2:24:26.400 --> 2:24:28.879 Wikipedia's in their language, but like, how how do we 2:24:28.959 --> 2:24:32.560 kind of improve climate communication overall with open access to 2:24:32.640 --> 2:24:38.520 information and you know, creating more linguistic um diversity and stuff. Yeah, well, 2:24:38.600 --> 2:24:42.400 I think there's like a couple opportunities um in this, 2:24:42.800 --> 2:24:45.640 and then I there's some other misinformation I also want 2:24:45.680 --> 2:24:48.280 to talk about too, UM. But I think that this, 2:24:48.520 --> 2:24:54.680 the sourcing one is a particularly challenging one. UM. We 2:24:54.760 --> 2:25:00.840 need like more basic science based climate communication and more languages. 2:25:01.040 --> 2:25:05.160 And I'm not saying like just the the like more languages, 2:25:05.200 --> 2:25:07.720 like the big un languages are the ones that are 2:25:07.800 --> 2:25:11.320 kind of colonial across cultural languages like Spanish or French 2:25:11.480 --> 2:25:14.720 or Arabic or you know, all these languages that have 2:25:14.800 --> 2:25:18.200 been used across cultures. We also need it in local 2:25:18.280 --> 2:25:21.160 languages um. And we needed to be evidence based and 2:25:21.200 --> 2:25:23.960 we needed to be an audience based. Right. So if 2:25:24.000 --> 2:25:28.800 if someone is like searching online in Swahili about how 2:25:28.920 --> 2:25:32.440 like drought is happening in Kenya, right or Tanzania or 2:25:32.800 --> 2:25:35.720 or the you know they're suddenly flooding, or like I 2:25:35.760 --> 2:25:39.120 need to deal with X, Y and z adaptation to 2:25:39.240 --> 2:25:44.200 the climate crisis, um, which is by the way, what 2:25:44.400 --> 2:25:47.160 all of the global South is doing right now, right, like, 2:25:47.200 --> 2:25:50.560 the global South is having to adapt to this crisis 2:25:50.920 --> 2:25:54.000 that polluting countries has have made. Yeah, and we're not 2:25:54.080 --> 2:25:57.560 actually giving them the resources to the to the problem 2:25:57.600 --> 2:26:00.840 that we've caused. You Well, it's not even giving the research. 2:26:00.879 --> 2:26:03.360 We're not even like the people who are like, we 2:26:03.400 --> 2:26:07.280 want to adapt our society. We're not resourcing the folks 2:26:07.520 --> 2:26:10.879 on the ground who have the agency, who have the understanding, 2:26:10.879 --> 2:26:12.720 who know how to do the research in the context, 2:26:12.840 --> 2:26:15.080 who know how to do the communication in the context. Right, 2:26:15.400 --> 2:26:20.400 We're not even like bolstering their their request for help. Right, 2:26:20.520 --> 2:26:24.760 Like the the the UN Climate Conference kind of failed 2:26:24.920 --> 2:26:29.520 on this adaptation funding. Right, And uh, this is you know, 2:26:29.760 --> 2:26:32.240 this is where like a platform like Wikipedia and like 2:26:32.680 --> 2:26:35.480 kind of approaching this from a knowledge activist perspective where 2:26:35.480 --> 2:26:40.560 you're like there are people who need this knowledge to address, 2:26:41.040 --> 2:26:44.400 like understand what's happening around them so they can make decisions. 2:26:44.760 --> 2:26:49.880 That doesn't like you know, yeah, we need those kinds 2:26:49.920 --> 2:26:53.280 of information. We need open source knowledge, not just Wikipedia 2:26:53.360 --> 2:26:57.240 but one of the platforms um and and you know 2:26:57.400 --> 2:27:01.039 the you all do open source investation, and you're used 2:27:01.080 --> 2:27:04.480 to like open source software communities, and I listen a 2:27:04.560 --> 2:27:07.200 couple of your podcasts and you're kind of constantly speaking 2:27:07.240 --> 2:27:10.040 back to those open communities that that come out of 2:27:10.640 --> 2:27:16.080 like anglophone software spaces, um and, like we need to 2:27:16.160 --> 2:27:20.240 acknowledge that. Like we we figured out how to acknowledge, 2:27:20.320 --> 2:27:23.360 but we haven't given all those tools. We haven't transferred 2:27:23.360 --> 2:27:25.520 the knowledge on how to do it. We haven't adapted 2:27:26.080 --> 2:27:29.040 those tools to other parts of the world and other languages. 2:27:29.600 --> 2:27:34.480 Um And. So just like starting to look for these 2:27:34.520 --> 2:27:38.720 other communities, asking for the people, like who's ready to organize, 2:27:38.840 --> 2:27:42.880 like giving them money to go do it right, these 2:27:42.920 --> 2:27:46.640 things are like really practical, um And I think we're 2:27:46.760 --> 2:27:49.920 we're not We're not often not listening or we're not 2:27:50.040 --> 2:27:53.520 looking for that solution. And reinder, like most of the 2:27:53.560 --> 2:27:56.720 people having to adapt, um are in the global South 2:27:56.959 --> 2:28:00.760 and speak other languages, Like we need to be there 2:28:01.080 --> 2:28:03.880 in that language if we want the climate crisis so 2:28:04.080 --> 2:28:13.480 like resolve itself without you know, destroying people's lives. Yeah. Absolutely, Um, yeah, 2:28:13.560 --> 2:28:15.720 that's that's the thing we try to bring up, is 2:28:15.800 --> 2:28:19.240 that the people is going to be initially worse affected 2:28:19.280 --> 2:28:21.880 are the people who are already kind of not in 2:28:21.959 --> 2:28:25.280 the greatest situation in the first place. That's like how 2:28:25.640 --> 2:28:28.720 how like how like the areas that are gonna that 2:28:28.760 --> 2:28:31.120 are gonna experience the most flooding, the most extreme weather events, 2:28:31.120 --> 2:28:33.200 all this kind of stuff. It's it's it's not it's 2:28:33.240 --> 2:28:35.800 not starting with something like New York City. It's starting 2:28:35.840 --> 2:28:38.320 with areas that are already dealing with a lot of 2:28:38.400 --> 2:28:41.520 like local issues and now this is just something else 2:28:41.600 --> 2:28:44.640 on top. And yeah, fixing all of that is uh, 2:28:46.000 --> 2:28:48.000 I mean, fixing all of it's impossible. We can we 2:28:48.000 --> 2:28:52.480 can only take like small adaptive steps to like mitigate 2:28:52.600 --> 2:28:54.960 some of the worse effects. And yeah, I mean that 2:28:55.000 --> 2:28:57.640 that's that's stuff that comes up a bunch. But you 2:28:57.920 --> 2:29:00.720 you mentioned you wanted to at least briefly mention and um, 2:29:00.879 --> 2:29:05.040 some other forms of disinformation. Yeah. So we we've also 2:29:05.320 --> 2:29:08.520 witnessed a couple of times, UM where something will hit 2:29:08.640 --> 2:29:12.680 like breaking news or become a political position in a context, 2:29:12.879 --> 2:29:15.200 and then like we will see bad actors show up 2:29:15.240 --> 2:29:18.240 on Wikipedia and try to manipulate it. UM. I have 2:29:18.360 --> 2:29:23.119 two examples of those. The first is about a year 2:29:23.760 --> 2:29:28.160 year ago. Uh, we found a group of accounts editing 2:29:28.240 --> 2:29:34.160 about some of the inter Amazonian highways that the Bolsonaro 2:29:35.040 --> 2:29:39.840 presidency is building through through the Amazon UM where they 2:29:39.879 --> 2:29:44.039 were trying to remove the environmental and indigenous people's uh 2:29:44.600 --> 2:29:48.840 impact assessments from the Wikipedia articles. Uh and so like 2:29:49.000 --> 2:29:54.640 basic human rights stuff, basic you know, healthy environment things 2:29:55.760 --> 2:29:58.600 that the government is like expected to follow through on. 2:29:59.120 --> 2:30:05.320 We're being like manipulated out of the articles for a 2:30:05.560 --> 2:30:09.760 more like pro economic growth narrative UM. And so you 2:30:09.879 --> 2:30:15.840 know it's we can't like the shift towards this like 2:30:16.080 --> 2:30:20.840 very extreme right like economic growth only version of reality 2:30:21.520 --> 2:30:23.760 um does play out on the wikie Now were we 2:30:23.800 --> 2:30:26.840 were lucky that this was fairly trans like fairly easy 2:30:26.920 --> 2:30:28.640 to see once we found it, But we had to 2:30:28.680 --> 2:30:34.760 coordinate across UM, English, Spanish and Portuguese to like address 2:30:34.959 --> 2:30:38.440 the problem. So so we need like multi lingual communities 2:30:38.480 --> 2:30:40.320 who are kind of coordinating and talking to each other 2:30:41.000 --> 2:30:43.480 to address that. Um. The other thing we've seen is like, 2:30:44.120 --> 2:30:47.959 so did you I don't know how well you follow 2:30:48.120 --> 2:30:51.440 the climate movement? Um, but did you see when Disha 2:30:51.560 --> 2:30:56.880 rabb got arrested in India? By chance? I don't think so. 2:30:57.720 --> 2:31:00.640 So she She's a youth climate active that was part 2:31:00.680 --> 2:31:04.000 of Friday's for Future India, which is like a group 2:31:04.320 --> 2:31:06.520 kind of sister group of the group that formed in 2:31:06.600 --> 2:31:14.360 Europe around Greta Twinberg. Right. Um and uh she uh um. 2:31:15.560 --> 2:31:19.800 Her Gmail account got attached to a Google doc. Uh 2:31:20.560 --> 2:31:23.959 just seen active on a Google doc that was about 2:31:24.280 --> 2:31:27.520 sharing social media about the India the farmers protests in 2:31:27.640 --> 2:31:31.320 India which have been like a real political sticking point issue. 2:31:31.959 --> 2:31:35.560 And I had written so I'm both a volunteer and 2:31:35.840 --> 2:31:39.040 a professional who organizes the community. And in my volunteer time, 2:31:39.440 --> 2:31:43.119 I had written the biography Adisha Rabbi like months before 2:31:44.000 --> 2:31:47.280 the Indian government kind of identified her with this social 2:31:47.320 --> 2:31:51.800 media tool kit. And um, when she got arrested for 2:31:52.120 --> 2:31:57.039 something that's like just basic social organizing tactic with social media. Um, 2:31:58.360 --> 2:32:04.160 the kind of Hindu nationalist social media environment like zoomed 2:32:04.200 --> 2:32:07.720 in on her Wikipedia article and on all these other 2:32:07.959 --> 2:32:12.040 social media presences she had, and they tried to silence it. 2:32:12.640 --> 2:32:14.800 Um be like okay, we need to leave this article. 2:32:15.280 --> 2:32:18.879 And uh, fortunately like a group of us were watching 2:32:18.959 --> 2:32:21.200 the page and we caught it and we're able to 2:32:21.240 --> 2:32:24.480 stop that. But there's kind of the the the kind 2:32:24.480 --> 2:32:27.920 of flash mob situation that happens a lot now in 2:32:28.200 --> 2:32:33.200 social media, where it's that is, this thing has been polarized, 2:32:33.400 --> 2:32:35.600 now we need to go attack it. Um. And so 2:32:36.240 --> 2:32:39.360 you can imagine like English Wikipedia has a healthy immune 2:32:39.440 --> 2:32:41.840 system for this kind of stuff. It like sees it, 2:32:42.160 --> 2:32:43.840 but it has enough, it has enough people that it 2:32:43.879 --> 2:32:47.480 can do that. Yeah. Yeah, but you can imagine on 2:32:47.680 --> 2:32:51.199 a smaller wiki that the narrative could shift and stay 2:32:51.280 --> 2:32:56.000 permanently shifted quite quickly. Yeah, um, if that happened. And 2:32:56.240 --> 2:32:58.520 so that that's another concern. Right. So there's like the 2:32:58.600 --> 2:33:01.480 subtle like a few accounts just like quietly removing things 2:33:01.840 --> 2:33:05.160 and then like the act of political um kind of 2:33:05.440 --> 2:33:08.440 intervention that happens. And in terms of like disinformation, do 2:33:08.480 --> 2:33:10.920 you see the Wikipedia as being kind of susceptible to 2:33:11.040 --> 2:33:16.560 like intentional disinformation campaigns of people slowly kind of editing 2:33:17.040 --> 2:33:20.280 the ideology of of articles to to push kind of 2:33:20.600 --> 2:33:22.960 some agenda. What whether that be like individually and like 2:33:23.200 --> 2:33:25.840 like you know, more of like a crowd operation um 2:33:26.080 --> 2:33:29.360 or even like run by like people with political power. Um, 2:33:29.920 --> 2:33:31.840 Like do do you how much of a risk do 2:33:31.920 --> 2:33:33.880 you see that with this kind of open source idea 2:33:33.959 --> 2:33:38.279 is that of of like intentional slow dissemination of disinformation 2:33:38.720 --> 2:33:43.080 on like important articles and stuff. Well, so I think 2:33:43.560 --> 2:33:47.280 I might reframe your question a little bit, like, uh, 2:33:48.080 --> 2:33:52.760 all open source kind of knowledge spaces are susceptible to that, right, Um, 2:33:52.840 --> 2:33:57.080 the question is to like what degree and how harmful 2:33:57.680 --> 2:34:00.840 is it going to be? Right? Um? Like is it 2:34:01.440 --> 2:34:04.160 is it like very open to this? And will it 2:34:04.400 --> 2:34:08.279 cause a lot of problems? Um? The bigger language wikipedias 2:34:08.360 --> 2:34:11.520 have healthy immune systems, but we we have a combination 2:34:11.560 --> 2:34:14.320 of kind of bots that are like AI generated that 2:34:14.480 --> 2:34:16.520 flag bag edits, and then we have a lot of 2:34:16.560 --> 2:34:19.760 community patrolling happening. And even in some of the smaller 2:34:19.840 --> 2:34:24.439 communities that have like medium sized editor communities like Swedish Wikipedia, 2:34:25.240 --> 2:34:28.359 it doesn't take a lot for that local language community 2:34:28.440 --> 2:34:32.960 to patrol the pages and like be like oh, Okay, Um, 2:34:33.160 --> 2:34:36.520 these changes are kind of weird. I can roll it back. Um, Like, 2:34:36.680 --> 2:34:40.199 this doesn't seem like it fits our culture of Wikipedia. 2:34:40.680 --> 2:34:44.160 The problem is when a language Wikipedia has very few 2:34:44.400 --> 2:34:48.480 editors and they're not active all the time. Um and 2:34:49.040 --> 2:34:52.840 and so this is where we need kind of more 2:34:52.920 --> 2:34:56.120 eyes on the content, right, because it's it's very easy 2:34:56.240 --> 2:34:59.360 for like a really small language community to kind of 2:34:59.680 --> 2:35:02.439 have little bit of content but never see it maintained. 2:35:03.080 --> 2:35:06.720 Um and and this is where the like where where 2:35:06.840 --> 2:35:09.440 our communities are forming around these languages, like a lot 2:35:09.520 --> 2:35:12.880 of the West African languages for example, that our communities 2:35:13.080 --> 2:35:16.520 are are kind of organizing in we we like invest 2:35:16.600 --> 2:35:20.279 in those communities existing and like figuring out the governance 2:35:20.440 --> 2:35:22.880 and training people how to edit and getting access to 2:35:22.959 --> 2:35:25.800 the kind of technical skills to do this. Um And 2:35:26.360 --> 2:35:30.000 you know, we have kind of systems that we're hoping 2:35:30.240 --> 2:35:33.080 over the next few years invest in that resilience, right, 2:35:33.240 --> 2:35:35.920 like building a code of conduct making it easier for 2:35:36.000 --> 2:35:39.320 communities to see this kind of stuff. But it is 2:35:39.440 --> 2:35:44.760 three languages, right, um yeah, And it is a volunteer 2:35:45.000 --> 2:35:49.640 built system, and you do need a healthy editatorial community 2:35:50.240 --> 2:35:54.840 in order to keep a wiki from like drifting too much. Um. 2:35:55.000 --> 2:35:57.440 So a good example of listening to get a reference 2:35:57.520 --> 2:36:00.480 creation because it's the one we've done research on. Like 2:36:01.160 --> 2:36:05.800 it was possible for a few people to push people 2:36:05.920 --> 2:36:09.960 who are more in consensus with the global position on 2:36:10.200 --> 2:36:15.600 various topics out of the wiki. Um. And that's just 2:36:16.120 --> 2:36:19.640 like we we have to find a balance between like 2:36:20.080 --> 2:36:23.480 local language uh. And this is my personal opinion, right, 2:36:23.879 --> 2:36:26.080 we need to find a balance between kind of local 2:36:26.160 --> 2:36:32.599 language sovereignty on this stuff and also not like radicalizing 2:36:33.760 --> 2:36:36.119 its topical environment. And we and we see this particularly 2:36:36.160 --> 2:36:39.760 on impactful topics, right, like ones that directly affect like 2:36:40.280 --> 2:36:45.119 politics or in the kids climate crisis, like people's livelihoods 2:36:45.280 --> 2:36:49.880 and ability to function in society, right. Um. And we 2:36:50.040 --> 2:36:51.840 just like we need to be cautious about that. But 2:36:52.120 --> 2:36:55.160 but you know, Wikipedia is a common resource. Uh. And 2:36:55.320 --> 2:36:58.279 I think this is really important. Like the way Wikipedia 2:36:58.320 --> 2:37:01.800 works is you know, THEMNIA Foundation provides the servers. We 2:37:01.879 --> 2:37:04.880 fund our communities, we support them, we help them work 2:37:04.920 --> 2:37:09.840 through governance issues. But like the we need editorial communities 2:37:09.879 --> 2:37:15.280 to maintain it. That's what those thousand people are doing 2:37:15.320 --> 2:37:18.720 as volunteers as they're building an editorial practice that makes 2:37:18.760 --> 2:37:23.200 the content work, um and and we we need that, um. 2:37:23.440 --> 2:37:27.080 And so we need you know, like minded communities like 2:37:27.360 --> 2:37:29.720 the people for your podcasts who are like, oh, we 2:37:29.800 --> 2:37:32.680 need the Internet to be reliable and have accurate information 2:37:32.680 --> 2:37:35.199 a lot to show up, um. Because if we don't 2:37:35.240 --> 2:37:39.360 do that, it's it's really like it's the common resource 2:37:41.440 --> 2:37:45.119 we we we have a decent international listening MACE as well. UM. 2:37:45.600 --> 2:37:48.480 And I'm thinking like, what would would you like recommend 2:37:48.600 --> 2:37:51.840 people you know in different countries or even people inside 2:37:51.920 --> 2:37:55.960 inside kind of like, uh, you know the States, America, Canada, 2:37:56.040 --> 2:37:58.959 the UK who are like multi langual, would you at 2:37:59.000 --> 2:38:02.879 least encourage them to browse other language wikipedias and maybe 2:38:02.959 --> 2:38:05.920 start making edits when they see this type of misinformation 2:38:06.280 --> 2:38:11.000 popping up. Yeah, so I to kind of perspectives on 2:38:11.120 --> 2:38:15.120 this one, UM, look for a local organized community. So 2:38:15.240 --> 2:38:19.119 we we have what's called Wikimedia Affiliates. These are fifty 2:38:19.160 --> 2:38:23.440 organizations around the world. They regularly run events, especially now 2:38:23.520 --> 2:38:27.240 that we're leaving COVID, increasingly more in person events. They 2:38:27.360 --> 2:38:31.320 train folks like look for them in your context and 2:38:31.440 --> 2:38:33.680 if you need help finding you know, find me on 2:38:33.720 --> 2:38:37.879 Twitter and I can connect you with those communities. UM. 2:38:38.160 --> 2:38:41.280 And the other part is small edits. So I think 2:38:41.320 --> 2:38:43.640 a lot of people look at Wikipedia and they think 2:38:43.680 --> 2:38:47.800 about like a traditional publishing platform, right, like, oh, you know, 2:38:47.840 --> 2:38:50.520 I have to write the whole whole article. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:38:50.520 --> 2:38:52.600 I have to be a master. And and the secret 2:38:52.680 --> 2:38:55.240 sauce to all of this is like most people start 2:38:55.320 --> 2:38:58.920 with one citation, one comma, one type of fix, and 2:38:59.000 --> 2:39:02.080 they do a handful of those a month, and then 2:39:02.120 --> 2:39:04.600 they keep coming back. And as you do those small edits, 2:39:04.640 --> 2:39:07.160 you start reading the content more carefully and fixing the 2:39:07.240 --> 2:39:10.879 things you can fix. And so I I recommend going 2:39:10.920 --> 2:39:13.720 in to like add one citation, Like if you go 2:39:13.840 --> 2:39:16.800 and add one citation today, that like makes life better, 2:39:17.040 --> 2:39:20.960 or you fix the communication on the sentence. UM. The 2:39:21.080 --> 2:39:23.440 other part of it is, you know, I said there's 2:39:23.480 --> 2:39:26.800 these organized groups, uh for the climate in particular, I 2:39:27.120 --> 2:39:30.160 run this campaign called Wiki for Human Rights, which is 2:39:30.280 --> 2:39:34.360 focused on UM. We with it's a theme that we 2:39:34.560 --> 2:39:36.520 kind of identified with you and human rights on the 2:39:36.640 --> 2:39:40.000 right to a healthy environment, which is this new human 2:39:40.160 --> 2:39:43.080 right that has been acknowledged by the Human Rights Council, 2:39:43.560 --> 2:39:47.560 And we're we're organizing kind of writing contests and edit 2:39:47.680 --> 2:39:50.440 the fonds and kind of train names for communities to 2:39:50.480 --> 2:39:53.280 go and look for the human dimension of the climate crisis. So, 2:39:53.480 --> 2:39:56.480 I think when we think about climate communication, a lot 2:39:56.480 --> 2:39:59.200 of people are like science right there, like oh, this 2:39:59.400 --> 2:40:03.160 is you know about how weather systems work and how 2:40:03.520 --> 2:40:06.720 the atmosphere it forms, and the kind of stuff and 2:40:07.320 --> 2:40:11.480 the content that's more impactful is this like human inflected stuff, 2:40:11.520 --> 2:40:15.640 like how does the climate crisis in fact you as 2:40:15.680 --> 2:40:19.040 an individual and agriculture in the cities you live in, 2:40:19.800 --> 2:40:24.840 and the clothing you buy in the manufactured goods mine 2:40:24.920 --> 2:40:29.119 around the corner that's producing water pollution that's gonna harm 2:40:29.160 --> 2:40:32.520 your children for the next thirty years, right, um? And 2:40:32.800 --> 2:40:35.880 and that is the kind of stuff that we're encouraging 2:40:35.920 --> 2:40:38.280 communities to pay attention to. Is it is more the 2:40:38.600 --> 2:40:44.400 like justice and human rights oriented perspective on these topics. 2:40:44.640 --> 2:40:47.960 And your cat is very cute. Every once in a 2:40:48.000 --> 2:40:52.400 while they love to love to take the camera. Um 2:40:53.320 --> 2:40:56.560 and so yeah. So so if you follow me on Twitter, 2:40:56.760 --> 2:40:58.960 I will I can hook you up with that campaign 2:40:59.200 --> 2:41:02.920 as well. Um yeah, where where can people find you 2:41:03.240 --> 2:41:06.080 online and to learn more information about you know, the 2:41:06.200 --> 2:41:10.119 various kind of topics we've discussed today, So UM search 2:41:10.560 --> 2:41:14.680 if you're interested in climate change stuff on Wikipedia English. 2:41:14.680 --> 2:41:18.560 Wikipedia has a wonderful wiki project climate change that has 2:41:18.760 --> 2:41:21.080 a little tab at the So if you search wiki 2:41:21.160 --> 2:41:24.560 project climate change on Google and you find there's a 2:41:24.640 --> 2:41:26.879 tab at the top that says get started with easy 2:41:27.080 --> 2:41:29.400 edits and that kind of can get you oriented to 2:41:29.560 --> 2:41:33.000 like where can you affect English Wikipedia on this? And 2:41:33.520 --> 2:41:35.520 you know, once you find a gap on English, it's 2:41:35.520 --> 2:41:39.240 easy to find it on other languages. UM. For the 2:41:39.360 --> 2:41:41.360 kind of learning about wiki free human rights, you can 2:41:41.440 --> 2:41:44.440 search for that UM and or follow me on Twitter 2:41:44.800 --> 2:41:49.920 UM s A D A D S sad ads on Twitter. UM. UH. 2:41:50.400 --> 2:41:53.840 We also have a group called Wikimedians for Sustainable Development 2:41:54.480 --> 2:41:57.200 who's kind of communicating on Twitter, which is the group 2:41:57.320 --> 2:42:01.200 that's really focused on sustainability topics were generally UM, and 2:42:01.560 --> 2:42:05.440 you know, the other way to look is find something 2:42:05.520 --> 2:42:08.560 you've been reading about about the climate crisis or stainability 2:42:08.600 --> 2:42:12.600 issues in the news, look it up on Wikipedia, see 2:42:12.640 --> 2:42:15.720 if it's missing. UM. If it's not, click that edit 2:42:15.760 --> 2:42:19.280 button at a sence right. UM. The good example of this, 2:42:19.920 --> 2:42:24.200 I learned about a park and UH the center of 2:42:24.320 --> 2:42:28.120 Nairobi that's being protested by environmental activists because some of 2:42:28.160 --> 2:42:32.360 the big trees were being cut down a Huru park, 2:42:33.040 --> 2:42:36.160 right Uh. This came by on my Twitter handle, Like 2:42:36.280 --> 2:42:39.560 I'm not connected to this at the moment, right um, 2:42:39.920 --> 2:42:42.520 But because I had news sources, I had three or 2:42:42.560 --> 2:42:44.920 four news sources, I could say really simply in two 2:42:45.000 --> 2:42:48.200 thousand one, the park came under scrutiny for renovation that 2:42:48.320 --> 2:42:53.680 included removing old trees. That's a climate action, right uh. 2:42:54.040 --> 2:42:57.560 And I think you know, I am constantly overwhelmed by 2:42:57.560 --> 2:43:01.039 the climate crisis, as as is a lot of yea yeah, 2:43:01.680 --> 2:43:05.160 And and like just being able to tell that little story, 2:43:05.800 --> 2:43:11.520 like hey, um, the decisions people are making are not 2:43:11.680 --> 2:43:16.680 productive here, right Um. Just just gathering that story is important. 2:43:16.720 --> 2:43:20.440 And what's important is Wikipedia plays institutional memory on this, right. 2:43:20.560 --> 2:43:22.560 I feel like, you know, a lot of a lot 2:43:22.600 --> 2:43:25.480 of activists work is very temporal. It's very like in 2:43:25.600 --> 2:43:29.040 that moment, right um. And if it doesn't get documented 2:43:29.040 --> 2:43:32.280 on Wikipedia, the local news sources are gonna get lost 2:43:32.360 --> 2:43:37.320 in the window of time. Um. And so I think, 2:43:37.520 --> 2:43:39.960 you know, if you to do your little activist motion, 2:43:40.200 --> 2:43:44.400 like a sentence describing what happened in a moment where 2:43:44.480 --> 2:43:48.920 resistance was happening is like a huge step forward, right, um, 2:43:49.120 --> 2:43:52.880 because it connects the environmental crisis, clanic crisis, human rights 2:43:52.920 --> 2:43:56.480 issues to like daily lives. Like people look up this 2:43:56.640 --> 2:44:00.560 park probably on Google because they want to go there, right, 2:44:00.879 --> 2:44:03.240 or they read about it because people are like when 2:44:03.440 --> 2:44:06.680 was it created? What was that protest that happened there 2:44:06.840 --> 2:44:10.000 the other day? And if those sourcesn't there, um, then 2:44:10.040 --> 2:44:12.360 it doesn't really exist in their minds. Yeah, it doesn't 2:44:12.400 --> 2:44:15.400 exist in their minds. And I think that's like one 2:44:15.440 --> 2:44:18.360 of the big issues with climate crisis and you know, 2:44:18.480 --> 2:44:23.039 amplified even worse in other languages, right, is that people 2:44:23.120 --> 2:44:26.240 aren't making that connection. They aren't seeing it around them, 2:44:26.560 --> 2:44:30.280 and they're not you know, kind of connecting action to 2:44:30.680 --> 2:44:35.400 how we address it. That. Uh, that is a really 2:44:35.480 --> 2:44:37.160 good that's a really good point. And yeah, I mean 2:44:37.240 --> 2:44:40.760 I will encourage everybody to to start making small ledits. 2:44:40.800 --> 2:44:43.240 That's what's what I did for a long time before 2:44:43.240 --> 2:44:47.440 I moved into like open source um journalism and reporting. 2:44:47.959 --> 2:44:49.800 It's a great way to get started, and it's a 2:44:49.959 --> 2:44:52.879 great way to get just start start disseminating small bits 2:44:52.920 --> 2:44:54.720 of information because the only thing that we can really 2:44:54.760 --> 2:44:57.960 do is people is small steps. We can have like 2:44:58.360 --> 2:45:01.080 an adaptive goal in mind, but you need to take 2:45:01.160 --> 2:45:04.800 small steps to get there. And that is a really 2:45:04.879 --> 2:45:07.960 great way to start influencing the way people think about 2:45:08.800 --> 2:45:13.560 climate and our situation. Um yeah. And and I think too, 2:45:13.640 --> 2:45:16.119 you know, your your podcast kind of appeals to folks 2:45:16.120 --> 2:45:19.039 who are interested in like finding the truth and reality, right, 2:45:19.120 --> 2:45:24.000 and that that's that's like that that investigation is what 2:45:24.200 --> 2:45:28.600 a Wikipedia article is. It is like one ten hundred 2:45:29.240 --> 2:45:31.240 editors out there in the world trying to go, like, 2:45:31.520 --> 2:45:34.480 what the heck is this topic about? Right? How do 2:45:34.640 --> 2:45:38.600 I compile my notes? Uh? In a way that helps 2:45:38.640 --> 2:45:40.280 other people? And I think in the face of the 2:45:40.320 --> 2:45:44.080 climate crisis, Dr Ianna Johnson says, like, find the thing 2:45:44.160 --> 2:45:46.360 you're good at, find the thing you're passionate about, and 2:45:46.440 --> 2:45:48.920 find the thing that like or that that makes you 2:45:49.000 --> 2:45:52.120 feel good and you're you're just rewarding, And find the 2:45:52.200 --> 2:45:55.800 thing that actually like helps affect the climate crisis. Right. 2:45:55.959 --> 2:45:58.960 And a small editor on Wikipedia meets your kind of 2:45:59.200 --> 2:46:02.880 knowledge needs. It's very satisfying because people will read it 2:46:03.480 --> 2:46:07.600 and it is incriminal change in the right direction, right, 2:46:08.040 --> 2:46:12.200 People will make decisions on it. Uh Yeah, I mean 2:46:12.320 --> 2:46:14.080 and I guess, uh, I think that I think that 2:46:14.200 --> 2:46:17.240 probably closes this up today. And let's do have anything 2:46:17.280 --> 2:46:20.120 else to add. Um, I guess one more plug for 2:46:20.200 --> 2:46:23.520 your Twitter so we can get get more eyeballs on you, 2:46:23.879 --> 2:46:27.040 um and the work that you're doing. Yeah. Um so 2:46:27.320 --> 2:46:31.879 at S A D A D S it's my long 2:46:32.040 --> 2:46:35.800 term handle on the internet and you you can find 2:46:35.840 --> 2:46:39.760 me over uh and I tweet about Wikipedia and the 2:46:39.800 --> 2:46:44.199 commer carssis will and we'll we'll link the Wikipedia wiki 2:46:44.240 --> 2:46:47.560 project climate change page in the description for people to find. 2:46:48.120 --> 2:46:50.600 Thank you so much for taking time to talk to 2:46:50.720 --> 2:46:54.600 us all about these topics. Um, I'm really really great, uh, 2:46:55.040 --> 2:46:59.120 really grateful to have this type of knowledge readily accessible 2:46:59.160 --> 2:47:02.600 to more people. Also, you know, in the spirit of Wikipedia. 2:47:03.320 --> 2:47:07.000 Thanks so, thank you so much. Um. You can follow 2:47:07.120 --> 2:47:10.359 us by subscribing to the feed and on Twitter, Instagram, 2:47:10.440 --> 2:47:13.600 at Happened here pod and cool Zone Media. See you 2:47:13.640 --> 2:47:29.080 on the other side. Everybody, Raffie is the voice of 2:47:29.320 --> 2:47:34.920 some of the happiest songs of our generation. Baby so 2:47:35.320 --> 2:47:38.800 who is the man behind baby Bluga? Every human being 2:47:39.200 --> 2:47:44.440 wants to feel respect When we start with, all good 2:47:44.560 --> 2:47:48.000 things can grow from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, new 2:47:48.080 --> 2:47:51.000 Dad and host of Finding Raffie, a new podcast from 2:47:51.040 --> 2:47:54.240 my Heart Radio and Fatherly. Listen every Tuesday on the 2:47:54.320 --> 2:47:57.080 i Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. 2:47:57.800 --> 2:47:59.959 What's Up Guys on my Shot and I am Troy 2:48:00.080 --> 2:48:01.920 Millions and we are the host of the Earnier Leisure 2:48:02.000 --> 2:48:05.240 podcast where we break down business models and examine the 2:48:05.320 --> 2:48:08.000 latest trends and finance. We hold court and have exclusive 2:48:08.040 --> 2:48:10.000 interviews with some of the biggest names of business, sport, 2:48:10.080 --> 2:48:13.160 and entertainment, from DJ Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross 2:48:13.200 --> 2:48:15.920 and Shaquille O'Neil. I mean our alumni list is expansive. 2:48:16.040 --> 2:48:18.520 Listen to as our guests reveal their business models, hardships 2:48:18.560 --> 2:48:20.760 and triumphs and their respective fields. The knowledge is in 2:48:20.879 --> 2:48:23.720 death and the questions are always delivered from your standpoint. 2:48:23.879 --> 2:48:25.560 We want to know what you want to know. We 2:48:25.720 --> 2:48:28.760 talked to the legends of business, sports and entertainment about 2:48:28.800 --> 2:48:31.240 how they got their start and most importantly, how they 2:48:31.320 --> 2:48:33.720 make their money. Earn your Leisia is a college business 2:48:33.760 --> 2:48:35.800 class mixed with pop culture. You want to learn about 2:48:35.840 --> 2:48:38.560 the real estate game, unclears, how the stock market works. 2:48:38.640 --> 2:48:41.080 We got you interested in starting a trucking company or 2:48:41.200 --> 2:48:44.040 vendor machine business, not really sure about how taxes or 2:48:44.080 --> 2:48:46.760 credit work. We got it all covered. The Earnier Leisure 2:48:46.800 --> 2:48:49.800 podcast is available now. Listen to Earnier Leisure on the 2:48:49.840 --> 2:48:53.760 Black Effect podcast Network, I Heart Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, 2:48:53.840 --> 2:49:09.200 or wherever you get your podcasts. It's it's could happen here. 2:49:10.320 --> 2:49:15.240 That's the podcast that this is. It's about things crumbling 2:49:15.520 --> 2:49:18.200 and uh, how to maybe uncrumble some of the things 2:49:18.280 --> 2:49:21.359 that are crumbling. And today when we think about the crumbles, 2:49:21.520 --> 2:49:24.840 when you start thinking about the hell world that that 2:49:24.959 --> 2:49:28.240 we're all increasingly inhabiting, the scary ship that is getting 2:49:28.280 --> 2:49:30.560 scarier day by day. Number one on a lot of 2:49:30.600 --> 2:49:34.760 people's list is going to be the cops. Um real 2:49:35.120 --> 2:49:37.800 cause of anxiety for a significant chunk of people listening 2:49:37.840 --> 2:49:41.920 to this podcast right now, including its hosts. Um Alexander, 2:49:42.240 --> 2:49:44.600 you and I have chatted before on the air. Our 2:49:44.640 --> 2:49:49.320 guest today, Alexander Williams. Um, you were a police officer 2:49:49.560 --> 2:49:51.840 in the past and you are not currently and you 2:49:51.879 --> 2:49:56.560 want to chat about UM. The topic kind of the 2:49:56.600 --> 2:49:58.160 way you pitched it to us is there's a lot 2:49:58.480 --> 2:50:03.680 of aspects of police training that are very similar to 2:50:03.760 --> 2:50:06.400 what colts do to indoctrinate people, and you kind of 2:50:06.440 --> 2:50:08.320 wanted to speak on that. Yeah, there's a lot of 2:50:08.440 --> 2:50:12.000 there's a lot of cross sections. Um So, yeah, I 2:50:12.160 --> 2:50:13.800 used to be a cop. I was in law enforcement 2:50:13.879 --> 2:50:17.879 for just shot a fifteen years until I woke up 2:50:17.920 --> 2:50:22.120 and got out luckily. And all the stuff that's been 2:50:22.120 --> 2:50:24.360 going on over the last couple of years, and the 2:50:24.400 --> 2:50:30.400 craziness and really ingesting a lot of stuff around, you know, cults, 2:50:30.840 --> 2:50:33.840 And I've started going down that the little checklist that 2:50:33.879 --> 2:50:35.440 you go down of like are you in a high 2:50:35.480 --> 2:50:39.840 control group? And man, they all just look just deemed 2:50:39.879 --> 2:50:41.840 in my head every single time of like, oh, this 2:50:42.000 --> 2:50:43.880 is exactly what it was like being a cop. Oh, 2:50:44.000 --> 2:50:45.680 this is exactly what it was like being a cop. 2:50:46.280 --> 2:50:49.160 And I'm curious, kind of before we get more into it, 2:50:49.560 --> 2:50:51.000 do you want to walk us through a little bit 2:50:51.080 --> 2:50:55.160 more kind of what was your process of Um, I know, 2:50:55.360 --> 2:50:57.760 de radicalization isn't exactly the right term, but I think 2:50:57.800 --> 2:50:59.440 you know what I'm getting. It's it's in the it's 2:50:59.440 --> 2:51:04.240 in the it's in the neighborhood shore. Yeah. Mine. So 2:51:04.400 --> 2:51:07.120 I was raising a cop family. My dad was a 2:51:07.160 --> 2:51:10.960 copy went the whole nine yards, retirement, the whole thing, 2:51:11.320 --> 2:51:16.200 and when I got into it, just shy of twenty 2:51:16.240 --> 2:51:19.840 two years old, which that's young to be making these 2:51:19.959 --> 2:51:23.680 kinds of choices looking back on it. Um. We had 2:51:23.680 --> 2:51:27.240 talked on the last podcast of your season one, UM 2:51:28.000 --> 2:51:31.240 about when my brother got arrested and got beat by 2:51:31.760 --> 2:51:34.680 my own team, my my own crew, and the jail 2:51:34.760 --> 2:51:37.160 that I worked with, which is the jails is where 2:51:37.320 --> 2:51:41.000 I primarily spent most of my time. And I think 2:51:41.040 --> 2:51:44.840 that that was, uh, item number one kind of on 2:51:44.959 --> 2:51:47.400 my shelf, like people call it, that's that's that's a 2:51:47.440 --> 2:51:52.080 big one to right on the shelf. Um. And during 2:51:52.200 --> 2:51:55.480 my training, I've always been an obstinate little bastard and 2:51:56.000 --> 2:51:59.400 I've always had that kind of like authority defiance. And 2:52:00.160 --> 2:52:03.120 in training, they they start telling you really early like hey, 2:52:03.200 --> 2:52:06.440 you know what you know where your family, we understand you, 2:52:06.520 --> 2:52:09.240 We're going to get you. And then like the language 2:52:09.280 --> 2:52:12.240 even then kind of flared red flags wrong for me. 2:52:13.240 --> 2:52:16.359 And whenever a group of people says we're your family, 2:52:16.680 --> 2:52:20.280 and so right, like that's what you like, we're your 2:52:20.320 --> 2:52:23.240 family and you can talk to us anytime. Fine, where 2:52:23.280 --> 2:52:25.680 your family? And I got your back, Fine, we're your 2:52:25.720 --> 2:52:28.840 family and that's why you need to do this. Things 2:52:28.920 --> 2:52:31.280 have gone to ride. It's it's it usually is where 2:52:31.320 --> 2:52:37.480 your family comma now yeah? Yeah, and yes, So that 2:52:37.720 --> 2:52:40.400 that was like literally day one. It was where your 2:52:40.400 --> 2:52:42.880 family now, where you're you know, they use all that language, 2:52:42.920 --> 2:52:47.160 the familiar language, where your brothers, your sisters. Yeah. And 2:52:47.680 --> 2:52:50.240 the one that kicked for me and my brain was 2:52:51.040 --> 2:52:53.320 they said, within a year, you're not gonna have any 2:52:53.400 --> 2:52:57.920 friends that aren't cops. Like all of your friends are 2:52:57.959 --> 2:53:00.320 going to be gone because they're not gonna understand stand 2:53:00.400 --> 2:53:02.480 you and they're not going to be able to be 2:53:02.560 --> 2:53:05.880 around you and handle you. So within a year, you know, 2:53:06.200 --> 2:53:08.760 we're going to be everything you've got. And for me 2:53:08.959 --> 2:53:10.800 that was like that was a line of the sand 2:53:10.879 --> 2:53:12.800 and like part of my brain was screaming like nope, 2:53:12.879 --> 2:53:16.280 never letting that happen. I will not let my uh 2:53:16.879 --> 2:53:20.680 myself not have any non cop friends. Yeah that's probably 2:53:20.720 --> 2:53:23.080 good because that's I mean, you have like when it 2:53:23.280 --> 2:53:25.840 it gets to it's the same thing that happens to anybody, right, 2:53:25.879 --> 2:53:28.680 Like some people got like last year in Portland and 2:53:28.800 --> 2:53:31.000 Activist Brain where there was this all the people were 2:53:31.040 --> 2:53:33.240 spending time with other people were out protesting, and so 2:53:33.360 --> 2:53:36.080 we have this really intense bond, and we also are 2:53:36.160 --> 2:53:39.440 kind of separated, increasingly separated from the people around us 2:53:39.440 --> 2:53:42.600 because we just can't communicate with anybody else. And that 2:53:42.879 --> 2:53:44.760 kind of going on for years and years, because this 2:53:44.879 --> 2:53:47.640 is your career for twenty something years, and it's like, yeah, 2:53:47.720 --> 2:53:50.400 that would you'd be, you'd be after a couple of 2:53:50.480 --> 2:53:53.200 years of that you were inhabiting a different planet. They 2:53:53.280 --> 2:53:56.240 really are. And it's the how you said that, like, 2:53:56.360 --> 2:53:59.400 you know, this is usually twenty to thirty years, you know, 2:53:59.560 --> 2:54:01.520 because you want to get that sweet retirement at the 2:54:01.680 --> 2:54:04.800 end after you've abused your mind and your body for 2:54:04.920 --> 2:54:08.440 three decades um. It was it keyed off something that 2:54:08.480 --> 2:54:10.640 you and Garrison talked about in a previous episode of 2:54:11.400 --> 2:54:15.680 The Hiring Practices where the Washington Stay guys and they 2:54:15.720 --> 2:54:18.760 were they got busted because the therapist was showing tons 2:54:18.800 --> 2:54:23.000 of bias, and that brought up for me the hiring 2:54:23.080 --> 2:54:28.680 process because those psych exams are the only time as 2:54:28.720 --> 2:54:30.560 a cop that you get a psych exam. That's the 2:54:30.600 --> 2:54:36.480 only time you ever talked to a therapist mandatorially. Yeah, Yeah, 2:54:36.520 --> 2:54:38.680 it's a really bad move, And there's a joke in 2:54:38.800 --> 2:54:42.040 cop culture of like, well, yeah, you gotta pass it 2:54:42.080 --> 2:54:44.200 before you get hired, because after you get hired, you're 2:54:44.240 --> 2:54:48.200 never going to pass that test. M because you know, 2:54:48.520 --> 2:54:51.880 being a cop is is micro dosing PTSD in your 2:54:51.920 --> 2:54:57.360 system the entire time. See, I guess one thing I'm 2:54:57.360 --> 2:54:59.400 wondering because you you were in it for fifteen years, 2:54:59.440 --> 2:55:01.760 So that's the it's not an insignificant span of time. 2:55:02.360 --> 2:55:05.440 Has it gotten to be more that way? Because I 2:55:05.600 --> 2:55:08.960 knew about fifteen something years ago when I was like 2:55:09.040 --> 2:55:11.400 eighteen nineteen, just like I lived in the shitty little 2:55:11.440 --> 2:55:14.440 apartment complex and like the dude who live below above me, 2:55:14.640 --> 2:55:16.160 and then like the dude who lived two doors down, 2:55:16.200 --> 2:55:21.440 we're both Dallas cops um and I don't know, like 2:55:21.560 --> 2:55:24.240 I you know, I was not particularly political at that point, 2:55:24.320 --> 2:55:26.720 but I didn't They didn't seem to have trouble relating, 2:55:26.760 --> 2:55:28.880 Like they would hang out and ship after work, like 2:55:29.840 --> 2:55:32.560 just like not like like we would be like barbecuing 2:55:32.600 --> 2:55:34.280 outside and they would drop by and stuff, and it 2:55:34.400 --> 2:55:35.960 was never I never got the sense that they were 2:55:36.000 --> 2:55:38.119 living in a separate planet. But this is like fifteen 2:55:38.200 --> 2:55:41.040 years ago, and I'm wondering what to what extent do 2:55:41.080 --> 2:55:44.480 you think this is kind of increased in recent memory, 2:55:44.640 --> 2:55:50.640 like this the kind of you don't really uh socialize 2:55:50.680 --> 2:55:54.560 with people outside of the family, so to speak. It 2:55:54.720 --> 2:55:56.480 is kind of like that. So, yeah, a lot of 2:55:56.600 --> 2:55:59.520 language are using is perfect because so what you're describing 2:55:59.640 --> 2:56:01.440 and when I remember from being a kid in the 2:56:01.520 --> 2:56:05.440 eighties and the nineties and stuff, was um community policing 2:56:05.680 --> 2:56:09.480 Like it's it's a literal style of policing, going back 2:56:09.520 --> 2:56:12.400 to more of like the professional police style before it 2:56:12.440 --> 2:56:17.600 went military, and in areas where people actively live in 2:56:17.720 --> 2:56:21.520 their community and engage with their community, there's a striking 2:56:21.560 --> 2:56:27.480 difference in the level of police violence that happens. But nowadays, uh, 2:56:27.840 --> 2:56:30.160 it's not the same thing because a lot of especially 2:56:30.240 --> 2:56:34.840 in bigger metropolitan areas, you're a cop there, you can't 2:56:34.840 --> 2:56:37.320 afford to live there. You're you're definitely not getting paid 2:56:37.400 --> 2:56:39.360 enough to live most of the time in the cities 2:56:39.400 --> 2:56:41.760 that you're supposed to be you know, a part of. 2:56:42.879 --> 2:56:45.600 And it's gotten to the point where they actually teach 2:56:45.720 --> 2:56:49.800 this like method up methodically in academies. They'll be like, hey, 2:56:49.800 --> 2:56:51.199 if you want to be a cop in a big town, 2:56:51.640 --> 2:56:54.039 you need to start shopping around in the smaller cities 2:56:54.080 --> 2:56:55.920 around it to find a place to live maybe like 2:56:55.959 --> 2:56:59.560 an hour away. Um. And then they also pitch it 2:56:59.560 --> 2:57:01.400 as a same thing because it's all about, you know, 2:57:01.640 --> 2:57:06.160 the cheology Grossman. We're all under attack, so they'll teach people, 2:57:06.240 --> 2:57:09.560 you know what, it's it's safest to not live in 2:57:09.680 --> 2:57:13.000 the town where you're a cop now. M So it's 2:57:13.040 --> 2:57:17.360 become intentional and it's one of those things where because 2:57:17.400 --> 2:57:18.800 I don't want to breeze past this is not the 2:57:18.840 --> 2:57:21.920 episode world talk about community policing. There's very good criticisms 2:57:21.959 --> 2:57:23.920 of community policing, and there's a lot of things that 2:57:24.000 --> 2:57:27.680 doesn't solve. But I think it's yeah, yeah, absolutely, we're 2:57:27.680 --> 2:57:29.040 not trying to say like the solution is just to 2:57:29.080 --> 2:57:31.120 get cops, you know, to be members of their communities. 2:57:31.160 --> 2:57:35.520 But it it is worse when they're driving in from 2:57:35.520 --> 2:57:37.200 an hour out of town and see it as like 2:57:37.320 --> 2:57:41.200 I'm occupying almost this area like it does. Yeah, that 2:57:41.360 --> 2:57:44.800 language fits perfectly, especially with Grossman and all that. Yes, 2:57:45.320 --> 2:57:47.960 and we've got a two partner on David Grossman or 2:57:48.000 --> 2:57:49.560 Behind the Bastards if you want to check it out. 2:57:49.560 --> 2:57:51.600 But he's kind of the one of the big one 2:57:51.640 --> 2:57:53.920 of the big individuals, who's who's done the most to 2:57:54.000 --> 2:57:57.520 like really push UM. I don't even like it's usually 2:57:57.560 --> 2:58:01.119 framed as militarized thinking, But I don't know a lot 2:58:01.160 --> 2:58:03.840 of soldiers who have been who were trained to think 2:58:03.959 --> 2:58:06.600 that way about ship Like most of the people I 2:58:06.680 --> 2:58:09.680 knew who were getting shot at every day for years overseas, 2:58:10.000 --> 2:58:13.920 we're not thinking the way Grossman does. No, that's probably 2:58:13.920 --> 2:58:18.680 because he never actually wouldn't did anything. I think maybe 2:58:18.720 --> 2:58:21.400 we should probably Alexander, have you go start going through 2:58:21.520 --> 2:58:24.480 this um this document you put together, kind of walking 2:58:24.560 --> 2:58:27.160 through UM and I wonder if you might start when 2:58:27.160 --> 2:58:30.760 you kind of started thinking about police training and the 2:58:30.879 --> 2:58:35.279 mindset inculcated inside police departments from like a cultic perspective. 2:58:35.320 --> 2:58:38.400 When did that really start to come together for you? Uh? 2:58:38.800 --> 2:58:42.760 It probably really started to come together, um uh when 2:58:42.760 --> 2:58:45.080 actually when I got involved, I used to be an instructor, 2:58:45.600 --> 2:58:47.920 when I got you know, behind that part of the curtain, 2:58:47.959 --> 2:58:51.680 and I got involved in those things. UM, and I 2:58:51.720 --> 2:58:54.480 started going and teaching, and I started teaching other departments 2:58:54.520 --> 2:58:56.560 that would come to us, and it was it was 2:58:56.600 --> 2:58:58.400 a joke in my head at first was like, oh, 2:58:58.480 --> 2:59:00.640 we all speak the same language. And then that got 2:59:00.720 --> 2:59:04.360 my brain rolling on linguistics and how linguistics work and 2:59:04.480 --> 2:59:07.880 how that you know, the words we use change how 2:59:07.920 --> 2:59:10.160 we perceive reality. And then I clicked and I was like, Oh, 2:59:10.200 --> 2:59:13.440 we're like a we're a subculture. We're We're like no 2:59:13.560 --> 2:59:16.200 matter where you go in the country, we are a 2:59:16.280 --> 2:59:20.680 little subculture. We are a little group. And that's what 2:59:20.840 --> 2:59:23.280 started to kind of push me towards like it's like 2:59:23.360 --> 2:59:27.080 being in a cult, because you know, you grow up 2:59:27.120 --> 2:59:31.320 around Central California and there's a lot of really religious 2:59:31.360 --> 2:59:36.080 people and you start seeing the intersectionality of it really fast. Yeah, 2:59:36.120 --> 2:59:38.360 And that's interesting because we've talked a few times on 2:59:38.480 --> 2:59:41.000 various shows I've done about how any good subculture, any 2:59:41.040 --> 2:59:43.360 really good party, has elements of like a cult. Right, 2:59:43.400 --> 2:59:45.840 There's there's little bits of that. There's bits of that 2:59:45.959 --> 2:59:50.720 in friendship and whatnot. Yeah. Yeah, it's just a thing 2:59:50.879 --> 2:59:53.360 like cults are taking advantage, like pulling a bunch of 2:59:53.600 --> 2:59:58.400 things that people do together in order to manipulate human beings. Um, 2:59:59.280 --> 3:00:02.360 I'm wondering kind of where where you think where are 3:00:02.360 --> 3:00:03.840 some of the areas you think it kind of crosses 3:00:03.920 --> 3:00:07.120 the line with police from like this is you know 3:00:07.440 --> 3:00:09.360 a degree of like I'm sure firefighters have a degree 3:00:09.360 --> 3:00:12.400 of this. You know, Um, these are people that like 3:00:12.560 --> 3:00:14.360 I hang around with all the time and we wipe 3:00:14.440 --> 3:00:17.440 up in some intense situations together. That causes there are 3:00:17.520 --> 3:00:21.160 culti aspects that's always going to cause. Um, I'm wondering, 3:00:21.240 --> 3:00:23.400 kind of where where are the first areas you started 3:00:23.440 --> 3:00:27.560 to realize this, this is crossing that line of Probably 3:00:27.600 --> 3:00:30.840 the first area is in how much the department like 3:00:31.040 --> 3:00:32.960 and this was universal and loss of departments that I 3:00:33.240 --> 3:00:36.360 had contact with, is how much the department owns you? 3:00:36.600 --> 3:00:38.800 And I mean like they use that language. They they'll 3:00:38.840 --> 3:00:41.880 tell you like we own you. Like anything you do 3:00:42.080 --> 3:00:44.280 in your personal life, your first thought needs to be 3:00:45.080 --> 3:00:48.840 how does this affect my department and my my sheriff, 3:00:49.040 --> 3:00:51.480 my chief, my whatever, Like every single thing you do 3:00:51.640 --> 3:00:56.160 is supposed to be potentially pr for the department. So 3:00:56.640 --> 3:00:58.600 they tell you flat out in the forefront of your 3:00:58.640 --> 3:01:02.520 mind every waking moment, man, your own duty, you're you're 3:01:02.640 --> 3:01:06.920 you're here, we own you. Um. And that that was 3:01:07.000 --> 3:01:09.160 the first one that was just like oh man, like no, 3:01:09.320 --> 3:01:11.240 I punch out at the end of my shift and 3:01:11.280 --> 3:01:15.520 I go home. This isn't like, this isn't this is 3:01:15.560 --> 3:01:18.080 a job. It's not supposed to be a life, it's 3:01:18.480 --> 3:01:20.360 it's and that that was the first one that started 3:01:20.400 --> 3:01:24.600 going it. Um. Probably the second one that I really 3:01:24.640 --> 3:01:27.200 noticed was that you can tell anyone's a cop because 3:01:27.200 --> 3:01:29.040 they'll tell you within about five seconds of meeting them. 3:01:29.080 --> 3:01:31.800 But they're a com if you're at a bar, you're 3:01:31.800 --> 3:01:33.320 at a party or at whatever, they'll be like, Hi, 3:01:33.440 --> 3:01:35.640 my name, my miname's Alexander. I work for the Shares. 3:01:35.720 --> 3:01:38.000 Part Like it's it's gonna come out of their mouth 3:01:38.120 --> 3:01:42.320 in two seconds because it is. It's their identity, it's 3:01:42.360 --> 3:01:45.480 their entire sense of self. Yeah, I wonder because one 3:01:45.520 --> 3:01:47.400 of the things we've seen in the last couple of 3:01:47.480 --> 3:01:50.400 years in particular, is aspects of that bleed out, like 3:01:50.480 --> 3:01:52.720 the thin blue line flags and stuff, and some of 3:01:52.840 --> 3:01:56.040 that's some of that's just you know, signpost. Some of 3:01:56.120 --> 3:02:00.600 that's just I know people who were in uh, certain 3:02:00.720 --> 3:02:03.480 jobs where they transported things that were sketchy and had 3:02:03.520 --> 3:02:05.840 those flags. Is like, well maybe the cop won't search merry, 3:02:05.879 --> 3:02:08.640 you know, but like there and there's elements that they're 3:02:08.680 --> 3:02:10.240 just you know, I don't want the cops to stop 3:02:10.320 --> 3:02:12.560 me from you know, fucking with these people or whatever. 3:02:13.000 --> 3:02:17.400 But I think there's also elements of that. Um And 3:02:17.560 --> 3:02:20.320 I think probably television is to blame for aspects of this, 3:02:20.480 --> 3:02:24.240 but of kind of that sheep dog culture as as 3:02:24.400 --> 3:02:27.000 a as grossman calls that are starting to bleed over 3:02:27.080 --> 3:02:30.160 into chunks of the civilian world. UM And I guess 3:02:30.160 --> 3:02:32.640 I'm wondering kind of like, yeah, what that looks like 3:02:33.680 --> 3:02:37.320 as a as someone unlike the the deep inside of 3:02:37.400 --> 3:02:40.360 that as a police officer, Like what is it? I'm wondering, 3:02:40.440 --> 3:02:42.520 like to what extent where you kind of conscious of 3:02:42.640 --> 3:02:46.440 that aspect of society like filling out around you, like 3:02:46.600 --> 3:02:49.000 some of these like the cult of the of the 3:02:49.200 --> 3:02:54.400 heroic police officer kind of spreading to be um something new, 3:02:54.920 --> 3:02:57.680 which which it really started doing from like two thousand 3:02:57.720 --> 3:03:00.080 and eighteen up to the present moment is when a 3:03:00.160 --> 3:03:02.040 lot of that shift seems to have happened based on 3:03:02.160 --> 3:03:06.359 kind of what I've sawn. No, that timeline fits perfectly 3:03:06.360 --> 3:03:08.920 because I remember when I first got hired, the thin 3:03:09.000 --> 3:03:11.520 Blue line. It existed, it was a thing, but it 3:03:11.640 --> 3:03:13.400 was just it was just a matte black with a 3:03:13.480 --> 3:03:16.280 blue line and that was it. Uh, And I you 3:03:16.320 --> 3:03:18.840 didn't really even in cop culture, like I didn't grow 3:03:18.959 --> 3:03:20.720 up seeing that thing in the eighties and the nineties 3:03:20.800 --> 3:03:22.560 met much, not at all. And then when I was 3:03:22.600 --> 3:03:24.720 in the department in the in the in the two thousand's, 3:03:25.480 --> 3:03:27.200 you kind of saw it every now and again, someone 3:03:27.280 --> 3:03:30.960 might have a pelpin like in the department, but out 3:03:31.080 --> 3:03:35.960 in public, nobody had that stuff. No nobody, nobody had 3:03:35.959 --> 3:03:38.040 any of that rocking stuff. And it didn't it never 3:03:38.160 --> 3:03:41.440 really bothered me until it showed up on an American 3:03:41.520 --> 3:03:43.200 flag and then that was that was a big red 3:03:43.200 --> 3:03:46.720 flag of like, oh this this is bad. I was like, 3:03:46.840 --> 3:03:49.320 this is this is nationalism, guys, this isn't good. And 3:03:49.440 --> 3:03:51.400 like my whole crew look to me and go what's nationalism? 3:03:51.440 --> 3:03:57.320 And I'm just like, fuck, is there this like sense 3:03:57.400 --> 3:03:59.760 that people are toatying or is it this sense that 3:04:01.120 --> 3:04:03.440 this is kind of the silent majority that backs us 3:04:03.480 --> 3:04:06.560 in doing whatever hard work we need to do. I 3:04:06.640 --> 3:04:09.120 think it's started out as tony, it really did, and 3:04:09.240 --> 3:04:13.600 it's but it's now shifted into um this whole like, 3:04:14.120 --> 3:04:16.280 you know, you get those guys that are like, oh, 3:04:16.320 --> 3:04:17.800 if I see a cop getting in a fight, I'm 3:04:17.840 --> 3:04:19.320 gonna get out of my car and I'm gonna jump 3:04:19.360 --> 3:04:21.959 in there and I'm gonna back them up because they're 3:04:22.040 --> 3:04:25.640 like they're playing top. They really want that authority or 3:04:25.720 --> 3:04:29.240 that whatever, but for whatever reason, they don't go do it. Um. 3:04:29.800 --> 3:04:31.680 But this has been a way of like kind of 3:04:32.120 --> 3:04:34.600 they get to see themselves as being like a posse 3:04:35.680 --> 3:04:37.880 kind of a thing, like I'm in the I'm in 3:04:37.920 --> 3:04:39.600 the club. I'm not in the club, but like they're 3:04:39.640 --> 3:04:43.720 my buddies and is there I don't know, does that 3:04:43.840 --> 3:04:46.360 make being in the club cooler? The fact that there's 3:04:46.400 --> 3:04:49.320 these kind of posse's forming around it, these people kind 3:04:49.360 --> 3:04:52.160 of work worshiping the culture associated with it. I mean 3:04:52.240 --> 3:04:54.120 there probably is now, but honestly, when I was in 3:04:54.160 --> 3:04:56.640 there and freaked me the hell out, it really really 3:04:56.760 --> 3:04:59.960 creeped me out. I didn't like it at all. Yeah, 3:05:00.040 --> 3:05:01.680 I mean, you have to think about, if you're if 3:05:01.720 --> 3:05:04.040 you're a reasonable person, how weird it would be to 3:05:04.160 --> 3:05:07.000 see your job turned into a cult like Garrison. You 3:05:07.080 --> 3:05:09.920 know that feeling, um or you're you're going to learn 3:05:10.000 --> 3:05:15.160 when we when we make the cult. Yeah, okay, so 3:05:15.360 --> 3:05:17.200 I wanted to. I guess let's let's let's get back 3:05:17.200 --> 3:05:18.600 to this kind of list you put together, because you 3:05:18.640 --> 3:05:21.920 were sort of going through different hallmarks of what makes 3:05:22.000 --> 3:05:24.320 something a cult. One of them is the group displays 3:05:24.320 --> 3:05:27.480 and excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and 3:05:27.600 --> 3:05:30.560 whether he is alive or dead, regards his belief system, ideology, 3:05:30.640 --> 3:05:33.600 in practices as the truth as law. Um. And I'll 3:05:33.600 --> 3:05:35.879 remind you we were not talking about my podcast. We're 3:05:35.879 --> 3:05:42.560 talking about cults here. Uh that's right, Um, yes, stay quiet, Garrison. 3:05:43.680 --> 3:05:49.920 That's they're just smiling, silently staring at us through zoom. 3:05:50.040 --> 3:05:53.600 I see you, okay, And you've written under this the 3:05:53.720 --> 3:05:56.320 law is the higher power. They grant control of their actions. 3:05:56.400 --> 3:05:58.520 Blind faith in the system frees them from having to 3:05:58.600 --> 3:06:00.920 consider their role in the system. It's my job to 3:06:01.080 --> 3:06:03.360 arrest in charge high let the court figure out the rest. 3:06:03.720 --> 3:06:05.520 It sounds a lot like kill them all, let and 3:06:05.640 --> 3:06:07.640 let God sort them out. In this case, the criminal 3:06:07.720 --> 3:06:11.160 justice system is a direct replacement for God. I think, 3:06:11.200 --> 3:06:12.720 I think this is this is a really good point. 3:06:12.800 --> 3:06:15.200 This is even this is the thing even when I 3:06:15.320 --> 3:06:19.280 was like a dumb kid and thought cops were fine, 3:06:19.320 --> 3:06:21.200 this was the one thing that even like just even 3:06:21.280 --> 3:06:23.520 still freaked me out about cops because every once in 3:06:23.560 --> 3:06:25.480 a while you would see a video of like the 3:06:25.600 --> 3:06:28.760 cop was randomly like assaulting somebody, and then other cops 3:06:28.879 --> 3:06:31.680 nearby just mindlessly join in, and I'm like, whoa, that's 3:06:31.680 --> 3:06:34.760 so such a weird kind of group dynamic of they 3:06:34.879 --> 3:06:37.840 see someone doing something and they just don't question it 3:06:38.000 --> 3:06:40.640 at all and immediately back it up, no matter what 3:06:40.800 --> 3:06:42.840 actually was happening. Because like I always tried to think 3:06:42.879 --> 3:06:45.400 things through more like logically, and that type of like 3:06:45.959 --> 3:06:48.920 mindlessness really freaked me out. And I think was maybe 3:06:48.959 --> 3:06:51.039 one of the first things that was like huh, maybe 3:06:51.440 --> 3:06:53.000 it was. It was one of the first cracks and 3:06:53.080 --> 3:06:56.879 like maybe cops actually aren't good. Um, I think, yeah, 3:06:56.879 --> 3:06:58.520 I think this is a really great point in terms 3:06:58.600 --> 3:07:02.119 of how this ties into like, yeah, it's my job 3:07:02.200 --> 3:07:05.080 to it's my job to arrest and charge. I don't 3:07:05.160 --> 3:07:07.640 sort out what happens afterwards, so it doesn't actually matter. 3:07:07.840 --> 3:07:10.080 Like it's like I'm not I'm not actually hurting these 3:07:10.120 --> 3:07:12.360 people because if if they did something wrong, it's going 3:07:12.440 --> 3:07:14.840 to get figured out in the court system. I'm just 3:07:14.959 --> 3:07:18.280 doing this like preliminary task. It's it plays into a 3:07:18.280 --> 3:07:21.480 whole bunch of like weird psychological things that make you 3:07:22.120 --> 3:07:24.960 feel better about horrible actions you're doing because you have 3:07:25.040 --> 3:07:27.200 so much backing that's going to make sure what you 3:07:27.320 --> 3:07:31.760 do actually isn't bad. Yeah, this is like this, you know, 3:07:32.000 --> 3:07:35.400 this arrest, which may be physical and ugly, even if 3:07:35.400 --> 3:07:37.440 they're innocent later. It's just part of what you have 3:07:37.600 --> 3:07:39.279 to do to get to the point where you determine 3:07:39.280 --> 3:07:42.320 whether or not they're innocence. So I'm not doing anything bad. Yeah. Yeah, 3:07:42.440 --> 3:07:45.120 And actually, Garrison, I it's it's what you said. It's 3:07:45.160 --> 3:07:46.920 perfect because in the bottom of the thing where I 3:07:47.000 --> 3:07:50.360 was just spewing notes to myself, I literally put down here. 3:07:50.360 --> 3:07:52.480 It's not a job to them. It's a central component 3:07:52.560 --> 3:07:54.959 of their sense of self. This is why they will 3:07:55.000 --> 3:07:59.880 do terrible things to validate their perceived reality. And how 3:08:00.040 --> 3:08:04.960 these things, yeah, they it's you might say, like imagine 3:08:04.959 --> 3:08:06.720 how like think about how hard it is to get 3:08:06.760 --> 3:08:10.320 people to admit they're wrong about a political belief on Twitter, 3:08:11.200 --> 3:08:13.760 especially when their name is attached to their account. Now 3:08:13.879 --> 3:08:18.160 imagine you have like imagine that's the thing being argued 3:08:18.280 --> 3:08:21.119 is like the central thing around which you organize your life. 3:08:21.160 --> 3:08:23.320 And also you get to shoot people who make you angry. 3:08:24.320 --> 3:08:27.560 Oh yeah, it's it's a rough situation to be it. 3:08:28.160 --> 3:08:31.160 It is, it is, it's crazy. And the part that 3:08:31.280 --> 3:08:34.640 I wrote of it's my job to arrest and charge high, 3:08:34.800 --> 3:08:39.440 I think that's that's a part of the mentality of 3:08:39.520 --> 3:08:41.920 it is like, yeah, I don't want to say it's 3:08:41.920 --> 3:08:43.560 like a game, but it almost is like a game. 3:08:43.600 --> 3:08:46.000 It's almost like they're trying to get points, like score 3:08:46.080 --> 3:08:48.600 high and talk to me about talk to me about 3:08:48.640 --> 3:08:50.480 when you say a rest and charge high kind of 3:08:50.560 --> 3:08:52.000 what is that? What does that sort of look like 3:08:52.400 --> 3:08:54.240 on the ground before we get into kind of why 3:08:54.600 --> 3:08:58.240 people do that. So when you're using your your powers 3:08:58.240 --> 3:09:00.120 of arrest, you're you're you're supposed to hear to go 3:09:00.120 --> 3:09:02.960 a penal code. But there is code and I'm always 3:09:02.959 --> 3:09:06.360 speaking to California because that's where i got my trainer. Um, 3:09:07.400 --> 3:09:10.000 they don't expect cops to remember every single element of 3:09:10.080 --> 3:09:12.840 every single PC code because that's ridiculous. No one's going 3:09:12.879 --> 3:09:16.720 to be able to do that. Um. So there's there's 3:09:16.760 --> 3:09:19.680 wiggle room. There's play where I know you did this 3:09:19.840 --> 3:09:21.920 thing and I know it's what they call a wobbler, 3:09:22.080 --> 3:09:25.040 Like I can go felony and go misdemeanor. They'll teach 3:09:25.080 --> 3:09:26.800 you in the academy. They're like, if it's a wabbler, 3:09:26.840 --> 3:09:29.520 you always charge felony every single time, even if you 3:09:29.600 --> 3:09:33.640 don't think it's gonna work. Charge it felony, kick it 3:09:33.680 --> 3:09:35.320 to the d A and let the d A c 3:09:35.440 --> 3:09:37.240 if they can make it stick. And if they don't, whatever, 3:09:37.320 --> 3:09:40.480 who cares. That's not part of our job anymore. Wow. 3:09:41.200 --> 3:09:43.200 And yeah, And that's one of those things where a 3:09:43.280 --> 3:09:45.480 lot of people I've had friends who got charged with 3:09:45.520 --> 3:09:48.240 felonies that got dropped, but like, you're still living under 3:09:48.800 --> 3:09:50.880 your You essentially have to live as like the diet 3:09:51.040 --> 3:09:54.240 version of a felon while that's hanging over your head um, 3:09:54.879 --> 3:09:57.560 which is not fun. No, And it's a big part 3:09:57.640 --> 3:09:59.720 of the whole criminal justice. I'm sure you guys are aware. 3:09:59.760 --> 3:10:02.280 That 's love to crack deals. They love to make 3:10:02.680 --> 3:10:07.120 their big man general backroom deals. And facilitating that is 3:10:07.280 --> 3:10:11.480 cops charging high. You're here in the room, you're facing 3:10:11.560 --> 3:10:13.800 felony charges and the d A is gonna be like, oh, man, 3:10:13.840 --> 3:10:15.400 I can knock that down to him his demeanor, But 3:10:15.520 --> 3:10:18.440 that's because he knows he doesn't have a case, but 3:10:18.560 --> 3:10:21.880 he didn't get that opportunity without a cop charging the 3:10:21.959 --> 3:10:27.000 higher charge. Now you know who isn't going to charge 3:10:27.080 --> 3:10:33.080 high because their prices are incredibly low, very reasonable, very fair. 3:10:33.160 --> 3:10:37.920 The products and services that support our podcast. Uh, we're back. 3:10:38.600 --> 3:10:40.960 So the next thing you've got on here is kind 3:10:41.000 --> 3:10:44.600 of talking about cult characteristics. Questioning doubt and dissent are 3:10:44.680 --> 3:10:48.519 discouraged or even punished. And you've written academies are commonly paramilitary. 3:10:48.600 --> 3:10:51.000 They're working to break down and build up cadets. As 3:10:51.040 --> 3:10:54.520 discussed last season on my show, the FDO program is 3:10:54.560 --> 3:10:57.120 where fresh cadets meet salty veterans in the cycle of 3:10:57.200 --> 3:11:00.680 abuse starts. The paramilitary environment is usually casual and unnoticeable 3:11:00.720 --> 3:11:04.280 until somebody questions orders or tradition. Questioning order gets the 3:11:04.440 --> 3:11:07.640 that's an order threat, while questioning tradition and suggesting improvements 3:11:07.680 --> 3:11:10.040 gets that's how it's always been done. There is no 3:11:10.200 --> 3:11:13.080 forum for change your progress. Some places have these forums, 3:11:13.120 --> 3:11:15.760 but they're just for public relations. And this is the 3:11:15.800 --> 3:11:19.400 thing that I think people who are trying to engage 3:11:19.520 --> 3:11:23.119 with from a perspective of like reform or whatever, trying 3:11:23.200 --> 3:11:26.280 to change law enforcement. As a lot of people were 3:11:26.520 --> 3:11:29.320 last year where things get jammed up a lot is 3:11:29.400 --> 3:11:34.720 the there's this attitude among civilians, so to speak, among 3:11:34.800 --> 3:11:37.560 most of us that like, well, anything the government does 3:11:37.600 --> 3:11:39.440 should be subject to like what we should watch out. 3:11:39.480 --> 3:11:41.040 We should look at it, we should see if it works. 3:11:41.080 --> 3:11:42.720 If it doesn't work, we should change it to make 3:11:42.800 --> 3:11:45.640 it work better. And that's how kind of everything should work. 3:11:45.760 --> 3:11:48.600 And that's what you're getting it here. Is interesting because 3:11:48.640 --> 3:11:53.000 it's the reticence to actual change among police as legendary. 3:11:53.360 --> 3:11:54.760 But I don't think there's a lot of discussion of 3:11:54.800 --> 3:11:58.560 the psychology behind it. Yeah, I mean it's that it 3:11:58.680 --> 3:12:01.160 goes back to that whole will do anything to reinforce 3:12:01.200 --> 3:12:05.440 our perception of reality thing. Um, Like I said earlier, 3:12:05.600 --> 3:12:08.960 grew up in a cop family and it's specifically in 3:12:09.000 --> 3:12:10.920 the department that I worked at, So you know, we 3:12:11.000 --> 3:12:15.200 were called like blue bloods or legacy kids, and no 3:12:15.320 --> 3:12:18.360 matter what was going on, like anything that you questioned, 3:12:18.400 --> 3:12:20.240 it was always so, well, that's always it's that's the 3:12:20.240 --> 3:12:22.320 way it's always been done. That's the way it's always 3:12:22.360 --> 3:12:26.080 been done. And I grew to hate that answer, like 3:12:26.240 --> 3:12:31.800 with a passion in my personal life everywhere I refused 3:12:31.959 --> 3:12:34.400 to give that as an answer when I became a 3:12:34.440 --> 3:12:39.240 sergeant eventually, Um, and yeah, they'll do anything. I mean 3:12:39.320 --> 3:12:42.520 they will. They will bend laws, they'll break laws because 3:12:42.560 --> 3:12:45.720 who's going to charge them? Yeah, because it's what they've 3:12:45.720 --> 3:12:51.039 always done always. My department famously had um our union 3:12:51.200 --> 3:12:54.360 got all of our union news embezzled by people in 3:12:54.480 --> 3:12:57.720 our brass, and they got caught dead to rights. But 3:12:58.400 --> 3:13:00.840 that case never went anywhere. Nobody would touch it with 3:13:00.879 --> 3:13:03.480 a ten foot pole. Uh. And even if you go 3:13:03.560 --> 3:13:05.119 and google it and you try to look at archives 3:13:05.160 --> 3:13:10.040 from the local newspaper, it's gone. It never happened. And yeah, 3:13:10.080 --> 3:13:12.840 that's interesting to me because that's like cops getting screwed 3:13:12.920 --> 3:13:17.600 over by cops. Why how is that? How is that? 3:13:18.200 --> 3:13:19.920 How is it? Like? What? What? What is the impulse 3:13:19.959 --> 3:13:22.840 to defend the hat Well, because so there's a division 3:13:23.120 --> 3:13:26.520 in in cop culture of like like ranks and a cult. 3:13:26.959 --> 3:13:29.760 Once you get to what they call brass, your your lieutenant, 3:13:29.959 --> 3:13:33.560 captain or higher, they don't look at us the same 3:13:33.600 --> 3:13:36.840 way they don't look at the grunts, the line workers, 3:13:36.920 --> 3:13:40.320 the guys doing the twelve hour shifts were all that 3:13:40.440 --> 3:13:42.360 family talk goes out the window, and it's like well 3:13:42.400 --> 3:13:47.160 we're mom and dad now, and they changed their role 3:13:47.280 --> 3:13:51.439 in that world. And again, to maintain that power and authority, 3:13:51.480 --> 3:13:56.560 they'll do whatever they have to do. Yeah that's um. 3:13:58.040 --> 3:14:00.240 I mean it also kind of feeds in to this 3:14:01.360 --> 3:14:04.760 this idea that like there used to be less restrictions there, 3:14:04.840 --> 3:14:06.480 used to be like we used to really be able 3:14:06.520 --> 3:14:08.560 to like do this and do that, like we like 3:14:08.879 --> 3:14:10.800 a lot of violence get justified that way. But it 3:14:10.879 --> 3:14:14.080 also it provides an opportunity I think for like police 3:14:14.120 --> 3:14:17.640 who are trying to engage with reformers to do some 3:14:17.760 --> 3:14:21.080 sneaky ship because often this like community policing is referred 3:14:21.080 --> 3:14:22.640 to like, yeah, we need to go back to the 3:14:22.760 --> 3:14:26.119 old methods of policing. It's like, well, but there were 3:14:26.280 --> 3:14:28.920 probably do you remember the fire hoses being used to 3:14:29.120 --> 3:14:32.080 black people during the Civil rights movement? Like there were 3:14:32.160 --> 3:14:35.440 issues back before we got militarized. It's it's yeah, And 3:14:35.680 --> 3:14:38.000 I mean, and that was the stuff they were doing outside. Um, 3:14:38.560 --> 3:14:41.040 the jail I worked in, because you bring up fire hoses, 3:14:41.080 --> 3:14:44.080 this is where I'm going. Um, they we had big 3:14:44.320 --> 3:14:46.480 cotton fire hoses up on the floors and this jail 3:14:46.520 --> 3:14:48.120 and there was actually built out of old parts of 3:14:48.160 --> 3:14:51.520 the Texas prison. And you know, everyone talks about the 3:14:51.520 --> 3:14:54.000 good old days when we could really do stuff. And 3:14:54.160 --> 3:14:56.320 the story that always went around was that when the 3:14:56.360 --> 3:14:58.840 inmates were getting rowdy, they would just walk down the 3:14:58.920 --> 3:15:01.720 tier with the hose and just name them. And then 3:15:01.879 --> 3:15:05.720 Jesus Christ put it back because again, who who's gonna 3:15:05.720 --> 3:15:09.000 who's gonna tell on me? Who's gonna believe these guys? Yeah, 3:15:09.520 --> 3:15:11.760 and that was back in like seventies era. You know, 3:15:11.840 --> 3:15:14.400 it's the that's the big fist story that guys used 3:15:14.400 --> 3:15:15.960 to always tell. But I'm like, I have no reason 3:15:16.000 --> 3:15:18.440 to not believe that story. It sounds yeah, I mean, 3:15:18.520 --> 3:15:23.959 worse stuff happens in prisons today, So yeah, I'm not surprised. 3:15:24.320 --> 3:15:27.360 All right, moving on down your list. This one's really 3:15:27.440 --> 3:15:30.120 interesting to me, and I'm curious from some detail on 3:15:30.160 --> 3:15:33.200 this because this is not something I ever really thought about. UM. 3:15:34.440 --> 3:15:37.720 Mind altering practices such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, 3:15:37.800 --> 3:15:41.640 denunciation sessions, or debilitating work routines are used in excess 3:15:41.680 --> 3:15:44.160 and served to suppress doubts about the group and its leaders. 3:15:44.440 --> 3:15:47.360 And you've written cop talk briefings, evails are always negative, 3:15:47.360 --> 3:15:49.400 and the work routine is abusive. It is paired with 3:15:49.480 --> 3:15:52.920 hyper vigilance. Um, I'm I'm extremely interested in that and 3:15:53.200 --> 3:15:55.760 kind of like how it how it sounds like the 3:15:56.040 --> 3:15:59.199 kind of language that you're talking about people using among 3:15:59.280 --> 3:16:03.760 each other when they're doing this, So I you know almost, 3:16:04.200 --> 3:16:05.800 I mean I'm not even almost in kind of a 3:16:05.879 --> 3:16:09.440 PTSD response, I've blocked out like a lot of my 3:16:10.040 --> 3:16:14.000 memories from those years, Like I'll talk to that yeah, yeah, 3:16:14.280 --> 3:16:16.080 I'll talk to X cops and they're like, hey, remember 3:16:16.120 --> 3:16:21.000 blah blah blah, and I'm like no, Um, so cop 3:16:21.080 --> 3:16:24.240 talk is mostly slang. It's like it's the ten code stuff. Um. 3:16:25.120 --> 3:16:27.640 But it gets stuck in your head and you start 3:16:27.840 --> 3:16:29.160 and it's it's one of those things where they talk 3:16:29.160 --> 3:16:30.600 about how you're not gonna have friends outside of work 3:16:30.600 --> 3:16:33.640 because you're gonna start talking in this language. You will say, 3:16:33.800 --> 3:16:35.640 you know, what's your twenty you know, I'm code for 3:16:36.320 --> 3:16:39.120 if you see someone who's acting a certain way, like 3:16:39.200 --> 3:16:41.280 out of the ordinary, maybe a mentally ill person, you'll 3:16:41.320 --> 3:16:43.640 say like, oh, that's a jay cat. Like you'll use 3:16:43.720 --> 3:16:48.320 this jailhouse slang and it just it permeates your brain 3:16:48.400 --> 3:16:51.600 and like we said before, your words manipulate how you 3:16:52.280 --> 3:16:56.280 for see reality and you just start seeing everything that way. Um. 3:16:57.440 --> 3:17:01.400 The big one is the hyper vigilance cycle is the 3:17:01.680 --> 3:17:04.320 is the abusive part. That's that's the part that really 3:17:04.360 --> 3:17:08.040 got me thinking of cults of how they'll you know, 3:17:09.680 --> 3:17:13.200 deny you food, sleep, make you work crazy hours and 3:17:13.320 --> 3:17:16.880 do all these things. Um. And that's that's that's the 3:17:16.920 --> 3:17:19.000 one that really keep the whole calb aspect for me 3:17:19.280 --> 3:17:22.040 was the hyper vigilance cycle. The studies that have gone 3:17:22.080 --> 3:17:25.480 into it. UM. I learned about it from a book 3:17:26.000 --> 3:17:28.280 this little guy right here. It's called Emotional Survival for 3:17:28.400 --> 3:17:32.480 Law Enforcement. It's by Kevin M. Gil Martin, PhD. He's 3:17:32.520 --> 3:17:36.199 an ex cop who kind of PhD in neuroscience and studies, 3:17:36.959 --> 3:17:40.640 studied cops brains and got to see how they function. 3:17:40.720 --> 3:17:42.360 And he's the one that kind of coined this whole 3:17:42.440 --> 3:17:47.199 hyper vigilance cycle of you're always edging at this parasympathetic 3:17:47.400 --> 3:17:51.080 fight flight or freeze response time when you're on duty. Yeah, 3:17:51.680 --> 3:17:53.920 it just stays up there the entire time. I'm sure 3:17:54.080 --> 3:17:55.840 soldiers have had the same thing, funk. I'm sure you 3:17:55.959 --> 3:17:57.840 had the same thing, Robert, when you were doing your 3:17:58.240 --> 3:18:04.000 war journalism stuff man, or just being in Portland last year. Yeah. Yeah, 3:18:04.280 --> 3:18:07.400 it keeps you at that edge, that cresting peek and 3:18:07.520 --> 3:18:11.080 then you crash and you get back up and boom, 3:18:11.120 --> 3:18:14.720 you peek up again and then you crash. And it's 3:18:14.720 --> 3:18:17.040 almost like a drug. Your brain becomes addicted to that 3:18:17.400 --> 3:18:20.640 peeked out feeling that you get from the hyper vigilance 3:18:20.680 --> 3:18:22.840 because you do here a little better, you see a 3:18:22.840 --> 3:18:26.000 little better, your brains moving a little faster because there's 3:18:26.040 --> 3:18:29.720 that heightened amount of adrenaline just constantly dripping into your system, 3:18:30.920 --> 3:18:33.160 and then you crash. And when you crash is when 3:18:33.160 --> 3:18:36.520 you're not at work, So you start associating not being 3:18:36.600 --> 3:18:42.440 at work with feeling bad and being at work feels good. Yeah, 3:18:42.440 --> 3:18:45.880 I mean the same thing happens, I'm sure Garrison. It 3:18:46.080 --> 3:18:49.080 happened like during the riots, where you would feel shitty 3:18:49.120 --> 3:18:52.840 when you weren't out there. Um. Yes, some days I 3:18:52.920 --> 3:18:55.480 would go out, not even to just to cover it, 3:18:55.920 --> 3:18:58.000 just to kind of just stand there like a block 3:18:58.040 --> 3:19:00.520 away because there was nothing else to do. Like it was. 3:19:00.959 --> 3:19:03.040 There's like I could sit at home and rest, but 3:19:03.400 --> 3:19:06.039 I'll just be watching whatever is happening, not doing anything else. 3:19:06.120 --> 3:19:09.720 You just it. It feels it would feel more relaxing 3:19:10.200 --> 3:19:13.199 just to stand on a street corner and watch people 3:19:13.240 --> 3:19:16.280 throw stuff over events, because that that that's just that's 3:19:16.320 --> 3:19:18.960 more relaxing than laying down. It was like, it's that 3:19:19.440 --> 3:19:23.840 a very a very weird disassociate of like feeling that. Yeah, 3:19:23.879 --> 3:19:27.240 Like my my brain is it's accustomed to this environment now, 3:19:27.320 --> 3:19:30.600 So this is the environment I'm gonna be in. Right, 3:19:30.680 --> 3:19:34.040 And look how fast your brain got into that groove now, 3:19:35.280 --> 3:19:38.800 you know, imagine doing it for thirty years, yeah, instead 3:19:38.800 --> 3:19:40.800 of like six months or even though it's it's it 3:19:40.879 --> 3:19:44.160 started only after like two months, right, and or even 3:19:44.320 --> 3:19:51.840 even in some cases like a month. Yeah, it's fast. Yeah. Um, 3:19:52.480 --> 3:19:54.520 all right, So I wanted to get into the kind 3:19:54.560 --> 3:19:58.080 of the next thing here. Um, the leadership dictates, sometimes 3:19:58.160 --> 3:20:00.880 in great detail, how members should think and feel, e g. 3:20:01.040 --> 3:20:03.480 Members must get permission today, change jobs, are married or 3:20:03.600 --> 3:20:05.560 leaders prescribe what to wear, where to live, whether to 3:20:05.600 --> 3:20:08.400 have children, how to discipline children, and so forth. Um, 3:20:08.879 --> 3:20:12.080 very classic cult ship, right, Like the nut really of 3:20:12.200 --> 3:20:15.160 what we had all all that stuff when I was 3:20:15.160 --> 3:20:18.200 a kid. Yeah, I would guess that like the time 3:20:18.240 --> 3:20:20.200 if you ask someone for a quick definition of a cult. 3:20:20.280 --> 3:20:22.440 This is what they're gonna say something or there. This 3:20:22.600 --> 3:20:24.960 this is the kind of ship they're going to highlight. Um, 3:20:26.040 --> 3:20:30.440 and I'm interested in. Yeah, just talk because you already 3:20:30.480 --> 3:20:32.200 chatted a bit about about this. Just the fact that, 3:20:32.320 --> 3:20:35.880 like the way in which police policy works kind of 3:20:36.080 --> 3:20:39.320 restructures how you function off duty, which I think is 3:20:39.400 --> 3:20:42.320 something that people everyone understands elements of it, right, Like 3:20:42.760 --> 3:20:45.440 if you're a fucking dishwasher for a living, you will 3:20:45.879 --> 3:20:49.040 wash dishes differently forever, right Like if you if you 3:20:49.400 --> 3:20:51.880 have bag your like bagsh it at a grocery store, 3:20:52.000 --> 3:20:54.320 like that's something that you'll always kind of know how 3:20:54.360 --> 3:20:56.880 to do. Like these bits and pieces of this, but 3:20:57.040 --> 3:20:59.520 it's not quite the same as what you're talking about, 3:20:59.640 --> 3:21:03.440 And I want to get kind of into why. Yeah, 3:21:03.480 --> 3:21:05.400 it's kind of like when you're when you're as an adult, 3:21:05.480 --> 3:21:06.920 you do something that you're like, oh, I used to 3:21:06.959 --> 3:21:08.560 do that at my first job and I was like fifteen, 3:21:08.640 --> 3:21:10.320 But yeah, it does stick with you the muscle. The 3:21:10.400 --> 3:21:14.200 muscle memory sticks in those narrow pathways that your brain 3:21:14.280 --> 3:21:17.039 gets carved unless you get the right kinds of mushrooms 3:21:17.080 --> 3:21:20.400 to fix that. So and then you just throw ship 3:21:20.480 --> 3:21:26.160 in the bed, smooth out those curves. Um. But yeah, 3:21:26.200 --> 3:21:29.000 the leadership really does dictate. I mean some of them 3:21:29.000 --> 3:21:30.520 are some of them you can foy, and some of 3:21:30.560 --> 3:21:34.279 the republic you can. You can pull up policies and procedures, 3:21:34.280 --> 3:21:36.800 standard operating procedures, and you can look at like there's 3:21:36.840 --> 3:21:39.160 a ton of policies that literally dictate what you are 3:21:39.280 --> 3:21:41.039 and are not allowed to do in your personal life. 3:21:42.040 --> 3:21:45.440 Things you're allowed to post on social media, places, you're 3:21:45.440 --> 3:21:49.400 allowed to go in uniform, And it all just starts 3:21:49.480 --> 3:21:52.760 like tinking away at your armor. That that sense of identity, 3:21:52.800 --> 3:21:57.880 that sense of self, and that's how the job becomes 3:21:58.120 --> 3:22:02.680 your identity. Again. It permeates every corner of your life 3:22:03.520 --> 3:22:06.360 if you let it. Um, if you don't have like 3:22:06.920 --> 3:22:10.200 the I don't know the mental strength to kind of 3:22:10.280 --> 3:22:13.440 resist that, it washes over your real fast. Because while 3:22:13.520 --> 3:22:16.920 that's all going on, especially as a young cop, you 3:22:16.959 --> 3:22:20.080 feel great, You're you're special. Now, you're you're in this, 3:22:20.320 --> 3:22:23.040 you're in the magic club. You you have the the 3:22:23.160 --> 3:22:25.320 symbol on your chest and the gun on your hip, 3:22:25.640 --> 3:22:29.840 and it's really easy to let that slip and just 3:22:29.959 --> 3:22:35.040 become everything about you. Um. Yeah, remember permissions, like so 3:22:35.320 --> 3:22:37.320 permission to date and things like that might sound a 3:22:37.360 --> 3:22:42.480 little weird, but there are times where like my wife 3:22:42.520 --> 3:22:45.640 and I don't dress like the typical conservative Central Valley person, 3:22:46.200 --> 3:22:50.520 uh and act out of work functions. I would get 3:22:50.560 --> 3:22:53.240 I would get comments from people being like hey, maybe, yeah, 3:22:53.400 --> 3:22:55.280 your your wife has a lot of really colorful hair, 3:22:55.440 --> 3:23:01.360 like maybe she should tone that down. And again that 3:23:01.480 --> 3:23:03.840 was another one where I'm like, what, No, that's my wife. 3:23:03.920 --> 3:23:08.000 She can do whatever she damn well wants. Yeah, I 3:23:08.040 --> 3:23:10.320 mean that's that's that's the kind of talking that should 3:23:10.320 --> 3:23:16.800 get somebody slapped upside the head. Yeah. Um, the uh. 3:23:17.879 --> 3:23:20.600 The next thing you have here is the group is elitist, 3:23:20.720 --> 3:23:23.720 claiming a special exalted status for itself, it's leader and 3:23:23.800 --> 3:23:26.760 its members. The leader is and I'm interested in kind 3:23:26.800 --> 3:23:29.000 of because you you have you have elements of this 3:23:29.240 --> 3:23:32.400 right um with it like the sheep dog thing. We're 3:23:32.480 --> 3:23:34.480 kind of like the cop is the center of the 3:23:34.560 --> 3:23:37.840 cult for people who are not Cop Coults. I don't know, 3:23:38.040 --> 3:23:40.680 like does this exist, Like I don't see like cult 3:23:40.840 --> 3:23:43.680 a cult leader sort of within this this thing. I 3:23:43.720 --> 3:23:45.920 think it's it's almost more nebulous than that, where this 3:23:46.080 --> 3:23:49.640 idea of the agent of the law is kind of 3:23:49.720 --> 3:23:51.720 the center of the cult that the people who are 3:23:51.800 --> 3:23:54.640 agents of the law buy into, as well as folks 3:23:54.720 --> 3:23:56.920 outside of it. You know, I don't know, this is 3:23:57.200 --> 3:23:59.120 probably deserve any I mean, I'm interested in your thoughts 3:23:59.160 --> 3:24:03.360 on this. This probably deserves significantly more analysis then we're 3:24:03.400 --> 3:24:05.120 going to give it today. But I think it's a 3:24:05.160 --> 3:24:07.480 fascinating thing to think about. Right. It's kind of like 3:24:07.520 --> 3:24:10.400 how I when I put earlier that the criminal justice 3:24:10.440 --> 3:24:13.240 system is the direct substitute for God. It is God, 3:24:13.360 --> 3:24:15.720 the law is God. I mean, how many times have 3:24:15.800 --> 3:24:18.400 you gotten into a debate with someone where they'll be like, well, 3:24:18.640 --> 3:24:21.320 it's ethically fine because it's legal, and you're like, well, no, 3:24:21.480 --> 3:24:26.160 legality does not equal you know, ethical or moral and there. 3:24:26.320 --> 3:24:29.200 But there's these people in America who are just like, no, 3:24:29.320 --> 3:24:32.280 if it's legal, it's legal, that means it's okay. Yeah. 3:24:32.520 --> 3:24:36.240 And the elitism, yeah, it's obvious. I mean, if you've 3:24:36.280 --> 3:24:38.560 met it is kind of a religious belief though, that like, yeah, 3:24:38.800 --> 3:24:41.480 it's illegal, so it's bad. She there were a criminal, 3:24:41.600 --> 3:24:46.359 so they deserved X, like making a making a homebrewed 3:24:46.480 --> 3:24:48.480 cleric that believed in the law for D, and D 3:24:48.680 --> 3:24:52.320 was pretty easy to be like, Yeah, this is a church, 3:24:52.440 --> 3:24:56.120 this is a religion. Um, yeah it is. It is 3:24:56.160 --> 3:24:58.360 the sheep dog um on on sheep and the you know, 3:24:58.440 --> 3:25:00.320 it's us against the wolves and blah blah law. And 3:25:00.400 --> 3:25:03.040 then we have a guy's name in here that I 3:25:03.080 --> 3:25:06.320 won't say, uh for anonymity. But we had we had 3:25:06.360 --> 3:25:08.680 a braska, a lieutenant that would give us these prepared 3:25:08.760 --> 3:25:12.640 speeches whenever he thought someone's morale was getting low, uh, 3:25:12.800 --> 3:25:15.160 where he would talk about how and he was wrong 3:25:15.400 --> 3:25:19.640 that the word sheriff comes from um like sanscript or 3:25:19.720 --> 3:25:23.879 Arabic sharif, which is not true. It comes from shire Reeve. 3:25:23.920 --> 3:25:27.880 It's old English, just squished because English is a hideous language. Um. 3:25:29.400 --> 3:25:31.720 But he had to. I mean, I can't count how 3:25:31.760 --> 3:25:34.400 many times he told me that exact same speech to 3:25:34.560 --> 3:25:37.680 my face, over and over again, as if it was 3:25:37.720 --> 3:25:41.320 the first time I was hearing the story. And to me, 3:25:41.520 --> 3:25:43.240 that was another thing that clicked where I'm like, God, 3:25:43.280 --> 3:25:45.640 it's like talking, It's like a call and response when 3:25:45.680 --> 3:25:50.480 you're in church sometimes. Yeah, anytime you confront a religious person, 3:25:51.040 --> 3:25:54.359 they just they have that that that that dogmatic skeew 3:25:54.520 --> 3:25:56.840 that regurgitates and just like, well, here's my opinion that 3:25:56.920 --> 3:26:01.480 I was told by someone who told me. Okay, So Alexander, UM, 3:26:01.640 --> 3:26:03.120 we've got more to say. You've got a lot more 3:26:03.120 --> 3:26:05.720 that you've written here. Um, we're gonna we've gone kind 3:26:05.760 --> 3:26:07.560 of a little over the time we had here. So 3:26:07.640 --> 3:26:10.680 I want to have you back on tomorrow for part 3:26:10.760 --> 3:26:13.040 two of this before we roll out. Do you have 3:26:13.080 --> 3:26:19.960 anything you'd like to plug? Maybe the Washington State Patrol? No? Um, No, 3:26:20.080 --> 3:26:22.200 I don't really have anything to plug. I'm I'm never 3:26:22.320 --> 3:26:25.200 say die where all the easier threes because I'm that 3:26:25.400 --> 3:26:31.160 elder nerd from the nineties. Yeah, and uh saw hackers 3:26:31.200 --> 3:26:33.680 in the theater. I it's claimed to fame. So yeah, 3:26:34.320 --> 3:26:36.240 on Twitter if you want to come see me. How 3:26:36.280 --> 3:26:45.560 are your hips doing that? It's okay, Garrison's never seen 3:26:45.600 --> 3:26:50.680 Wayne's World. Oh I know that's true. That's true. Too young. 3:26:51.640 --> 3:26:53.959 I tried to show Wayne's World to my brother, who's 3:26:54.360 --> 3:26:57.760 still like five years older than Garrison, and did not take. 3:26:58.240 --> 3:27:03.160 Didn't take. It's it's it's time thing. My oldest is 3:27:03.160 --> 3:27:11.240 about four years younger than Garrison, and they've seen Wien's World. Wow. Okay, Ah, 3:27:24.640 --> 3:27:27.520 look to your children's eyes to see the true magic 3:27:27.680 --> 3:27:31.040 of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You 3:27:31.200 --> 3:27:34.199 look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face 3:27:34.280 --> 3:27:37.600 of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They 3:27:37.680 --> 3:27:40.760 see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that 3:27:40.920 --> 3:27:45.199 could lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide. 3:27:45.440 --> 3:27:48.640 Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and 3:27:48.760 --> 3:27:51.760 start exploring and discover the forest dot Org brought to 3:27:51.760 --> 3:27:54.320 you by the United States Forest Service and the ad Council. 3:27:54.840 --> 3:27:58.320 Hay Lead the listeners take here. Last season on Lethal Lit, 3:27:58.800 --> 3:28:01.760 you might remember I came to Hollow Falls on a 3:28:01.879 --> 3:28:06.640 mission clearing my aunt fascination and making sure justice was 3:28:06.800 --> 3:28:10.600 finally served. But I hadn't counted on a rash of 3:28:10.760 --> 3:28:14.920 new murders tearing apart the town. My mission put myself 3:28:15.080 --> 3:28:19.039 and my friends in danger, though it wasn't all bad. 3:28:19.480 --> 3:28:23.440 I'm going to be reality Tig, I like you, but 3:28:23.600 --> 3:28:26.800 now all signs point to a new serial killer in 3:28:26.879 --> 3:28:30.800 Hollow Falls. If this game is just starting, you better 3:28:30.879 --> 3:28:36.120 believe I'm gonna win. I'm Tig Torres and this is 3:28:36.200 --> 3:28:39.280 Lethal Lit. Catch up on season one of the hit 3:28:39.360 --> 3:28:42.720 Murder mystery podcast, Lethal Lit, a tig Tara's Mystery out now, 3:28:43.080 --> 3:28:45.360 and then tune in for all new thrills in season two, 3:28:45.640 --> 3:28:48.959 dropping weekly starting February nine. Subscribe now to never miss 3:28:48.959 --> 3:28:51.040 an episode. Listen to Leave the Lit on the I 3:28:51.160 --> 3:28:54.360 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, 3:29:00.959 --> 3:29:05.480 ah where it's us, the podcast that we are. It 3:29:05.600 --> 3:29:11.120 could happen here behind the podcast bad stuff. It could 3:29:11.160 --> 3:29:13.920 happen here, it is, it could happen here. Okay, Well, 3:29:14.200 --> 3:29:17.440 Part two of Why Police are Occult? Thanks Garrison, Thanks 3:29:17.480 --> 3:29:20.119 for doing the job. That is one of our jobs, certainly, 3:29:20.959 --> 3:29:26.000 but apparently not mine. Alexander Williams back again? Um, Alexander, 3:29:27.040 --> 3:29:29.840 how are you? How are you feeling good? Was your 3:29:29.920 --> 3:29:32.040 life in a radically different place now than it was 3:29:32.120 --> 3:29:38.760 when we ended part one? Oh yeah? Like no, Well 3:29:38.879 --> 3:29:41.280 that's for the best, because anything that would change in 3:29:41.360 --> 3:29:44.240 about the thirty seconds between these episodes probably would not 3:29:44.280 --> 3:29:47.600 have been a positive change. You're letting the magic out. 3:29:47.680 --> 3:29:53.080 People are gonna know. Yeah, they should know already. Uh So. 3:29:54.240 --> 3:29:56.040 The next thing you've got here, in terms of cult 3:29:56.120 --> 3:30:00.320 characteristics that you saw inside the Police is the group 3:30:00.400 --> 3:30:02.920 has a polarized us versus them mentality which may cause 3:30:03.000 --> 3:30:08.200 conflict with the wider society. Um yeah, And I think 3:30:08.240 --> 3:30:10.440 this is the one that like, yeah, we've all we 3:30:10.520 --> 3:30:13.080 all kind of saw that one. Actually, are you sure 3:30:13.120 --> 3:30:16.720 about that one? I'm not convinced. Yeah, it was a 3:30:16.800 --> 3:30:22.800 Eureka moment, right, Yeah. Um, I do think it's probably 3:30:22.879 --> 3:30:25.480 worth a little bit of exploration about like what it 3:30:25.760 --> 3:30:31.720 means emotionally to be told like I want to defund 3:30:31.879 --> 3:30:34.560 or even abolish the police as a police officer, like 3:30:34.720 --> 3:30:41.520 that's that's a um yeah. Yeah. I remember the first 3:30:41.560 --> 3:30:44.400 time that I heard that, the concept of it when 3:30:44.440 --> 3:30:46.199 I was a cop. I think I was about five 3:30:46.320 --> 3:30:50.160 years away from getting out, um, and it blew my mind. 3:30:50.240 --> 3:30:52.480 It was it was like I'm like, you don't know, 3:30:52.640 --> 3:30:54.840 we don't have enough funding, Like how how in the world, 3:30:55.320 --> 3:30:57.480 But we can't do our job because in you know, 3:30:57.600 --> 3:31:01.040 in our in my head, we're where the thing holding 3:31:01.120 --> 3:31:06.520 society up. If we're not here, everything falls apart and crumbles. Um. So, 3:31:06.680 --> 3:31:08.960 the idea of being told like we need to defund 3:31:09.000 --> 3:31:12.240 the police for cops, it's it's an attack on your 3:31:12.320 --> 3:31:15.040 values and your role in the world. It's also attack 3:31:15.080 --> 3:31:18.520 on like your personal life because because your life is 3:31:18.640 --> 3:31:21.800 police as well, right, and and and it's and it's 3:31:21.840 --> 3:31:24.320 like you're you've you've been talking a lot about how 3:31:25.160 --> 3:31:27.600 the job becomes such a central part of your identity 3:31:27.680 --> 3:31:30.640 that it's not even just attacking like your paycheck, but 3:31:30.680 --> 3:31:34.120 it's attacking like your essence now as a person. It 3:31:34.320 --> 3:31:36.240 is It's like if you've ever had a debate with 3:31:37.080 --> 3:31:41.360 with an extremely like evangelical religious person, it's the same 3:31:41.400 --> 3:31:43.080 as trying to tell a cop like, hey, you don't 3:31:43.080 --> 3:31:45.880 actually hold society up. You're not exactly as important as 3:31:45.879 --> 3:31:48.640 you think you are. Um. And like I said, like, 3:31:48.720 --> 3:31:50.520 we don't get we don't get paid very much. Health 3:31:50.600 --> 3:31:54.400 insurance usually isn't that good um our our unions that 3:31:54.520 --> 3:31:56.960 we toad as being the best, we're usually pretty corrupt um. 3:31:58.040 --> 3:32:00.320 And they don't really go to bat for us and 3:32:00.440 --> 3:32:02.120 get us the good health insurance and get us the 3:32:02.160 --> 3:32:04.720 good pay. They get us just enough. And so when 3:32:04.760 --> 3:32:07.160 a cop here's like, hey, we defund the police, it's 3:32:07.240 --> 3:32:11.200 like from our perspective, we think what we're hearing is 3:32:11.360 --> 3:32:13.600 we don't appreciate you. We already think you get paid 3:32:13.640 --> 3:32:16.640 too much. We we think of it less about like 3:32:16.800 --> 3:32:19.440 the structure of law enforcement, and we think it personally 3:32:19.480 --> 3:32:22.640 of like, oh, you don't think my kids should have dinner? Yeah, 3:32:23.040 --> 3:32:26.320 And that's uh, I mean yeah, of course that has 3:32:26.480 --> 3:32:28.840 like of course it ends the way that we saw 3:32:28.920 --> 3:32:31.520 it in you know, or at least it continues the 3:32:31.560 --> 3:32:34.480 way we saw it and continue last year, right, And 3:32:35.080 --> 3:32:38.720 and it's I think it could help like people like 3:32:38.879 --> 3:32:40.760 us are on one side of the line and you know, 3:32:40.920 --> 3:32:42.160 the other people are on the other side of the 3:32:42.240 --> 3:32:44.920 line still, and I think it could help people on 3:32:45.040 --> 3:32:47.440 our side of the of the of the barricades to 3:32:47.640 --> 3:32:51.280 understand just how willing these guys are to do things 3:32:51.760 --> 3:32:54.800 and things that they wouldn't normally do, things that you 3:32:54.840 --> 3:32:58.160 would never consider doing on your own, but for the 3:32:58.280 --> 3:33:02.600 job and as in order, they'll do it because again 3:33:02.640 --> 3:33:05.960 it's part of their identity, and it's it's there. You know, 3:33:06.000 --> 3:33:08.600 you're attacking me. You're also attacking my family, You're you're 3:33:09.640 --> 3:33:12.240 It goes back to that grossman thing of being told 3:33:12.240 --> 3:33:16.800 a lot of um, no matter what you do, you 3:33:16.920 --> 3:33:19.320 go home tonight. So no matter what I do on 3:33:19.400 --> 3:33:21.800 my shift, I go home tonight. It's better to be 3:33:22.360 --> 3:33:30.040 judged by twelve and carried by six. Yeah, yeah, like 3:33:30.280 --> 3:33:32.119 I'm thinking of like the police of the riot line, 3:33:32.160 --> 3:33:34.680 and yeah, you can see them being like middle aged 3:33:34.680 --> 3:33:38.040 conservative dudes, like look at all these like fucking like 3:33:38.400 --> 3:33:41.400 gay queer teenagers throws to fat me. Right, it's like 3:33:41.440 --> 3:33:44.200 the specific thing you're like, oh you you like I'm 3:33:44.240 --> 3:33:46.680 getting attacked by like the lowest of the low society. 3:33:46.720 --> 3:33:49.840 I'm being attacked by like did like degenerates and like 3:33:49.959 --> 3:33:54.080 this weird kind of scum. I'm actually what society should be. 3:33:54.520 --> 3:33:56.760 The people that are fighting against me are like this 3:33:57.000 --> 3:34:00.360 weird anti social thing, right, That's that's how from their 3:34:00.400 --> 3:34:04.480 perspective um when almost an actuality. I've been I've been 3:34:04.560 --> 3:34:08.280 slowly kind of appropriating that type of language for when 3:34:08.280 --> 3:34:10.720 I see a cop do something horrible, I'm like, wow, 3:34:10.840 --> 3:34:13.760 look at that, like anti social, violent freak, because you 3:34:13.840 --> 3:34:16.600 can look at that language because it flips the way 3:34:16.680 --> 3:34:21.000 we usually view like aesthetics when you know, because like 3:34:21.040 --> 3:34:23.800 when you see someone do something horribly horribly violent but 3:34:23.840 --> 3:34:25.840 they addressed in a uniform, it is it has the 3:34:25.920 --> 3:34:28.600 appearance of being proper, but like, no, that actually still 3:34:28.800 --> 3:34:32.039 is anti social and extremely violent. So I think I've 3:34:32.080 --> 3:34:35.280 been playing around with like flip flipping that language. But 3:34:35.400 --> 3:34:37.600 you can definitely see it on the cops faces when 3:34:37.640 --> 3:34:40.760 a whole bunch of like young queer as fun people 3:34:40.840 --> 3:34:43.840 are throwing water bottles at them. Oh yeah, you can't. 3:34:43.920 --> 3:34:45.600 And and the thing that to the thing to remember 3:34:45.640 --> 3:34:49.360 about most cops is they're there. Their ego is paper 3:34:49.440 --> 3:34:53.080 thin their skin. They cannot take a joke, they cannot 3:34:53.120 --> 3:34:56.040 take an insult. The the number of cops that I 3:34:56.080 --> 3:34:58.000 would see, and I would argue that I saw some 3:34:58.080 --> 3:35:00.480 of the worst worst behavior than on the eats, because 3:35:00.760 --> 3:35:03.120 because inside the jail you're you know, you're in your 3:35:03.120 --> 3:35:05.320 own little world. You're inside these walls. The public can't 3:35:05.360 --> 3:35:08.640 see you unless you're on camera and prebody cameras, you 3:35:08.720 --> 3:35:12.760 know where all the cameras are. And I the the 3:35:12.840 --> 3:35:14.959 amount of guys that like an inmate would call them 3:35:15.080 --> 3:35:19.120 like the f slur or any other slur and the 3:35:19.200 --> 3:35:24.480 cop would just snap, we just lose their mind. And 3:35:25.600 --> 3:35:27.760 me and another couple other guys being the only kind 3:35:27.760 --> 3:35:29.160 of cops that would get in the guy's way and 3:35:29.200 --> 3:35:31.400 be like no, And it was never we couldn't say no, 3:35:31.560 --> 3:35:34.200 that's wrong, don't do that. It was always no, it's 3:35:34.240 --> 3:35:36.080 not worth it, or no, you're gonna get in trouble 3:35:36.320 --> 3:35:39.119 or no, you know if you do that, he wins man, 3:35:39.400 --> 3:35:43.520 because if we said don't do that, it's wrong. We 3:35:43.680 --> 3:35:46.040 may have we may have stopped that bad thing from happening, 3:35:46.160 --> 3:35:50.000 but we have now marked ourselves as being, you know, 3:35:50.080 --> 3:35:57.600 potential apostates against the close. Um. So yeah, that's yeah. 3:35:57.840 --> 3:36:00.240 Calling them names works. Sixt and stones do brey Cops 3:36:00.280 --> 3:36:02.720 bones Like, Oh boy, it does work. Like in terms 3:36:02.760 --> 3:36:06.360 of if if the goal is make them extremely angry, yes, 3:36:07.720 --> 3:36:14.240 it doesn't work. It's yeah. Obviously. The next one you've 3:36:14.240 --> 3:36:16.200 got is the leader. The leader is not accountable to 3:36:16.240 --> 3:36:20.560 any authorities, um, which the police regulate and investigate themselves. 3:36:20.600 --> 3:36:22.480 That's one of the most basic ones. But it does 3:36:23.400 --> 3:36:25.920 it kind of. It does lead to this, like it 3:36:26.080 --> 3:36:28.320 is interesting to think about the way the Church of 3:36:28.400 --> 3:36:33.600 Scientology handles uh misbehavior from its agents and the way 3:36:33.680 --> 3:36:36.240 that like a police department does. Because there's not a 3:36:36.360 --> 3:36:39.360 ton of daylight betwixt the two. There's not listening to 3:36:39.440 --> 3:36:42.600 you the l Ron episodes. Anyone who hasn't listened to them, 3:36:42.640 --> 3:36:45.120 go back and listen to them. They're fantastic. One of 3:36:45.160 --> 3:36:48.840 my favorites um, Yeah. Listening to that and the way 3:36:48.920 --> 3:36:51.960 that they're a little internalized security system was structured was 3:36:52.959 --> 3:36:56.560 very very analog to exactly what happens in law enforcement 3:36:56.640 --> 3:37:01.279 when they're so so called policing themselves b s. Because 3:37:01.800 --> 3:37:06.760 god they don't. They'll do every little thing to manipulate 3:37:06.840 --> 3:37:09.640 the situation to have the cop come out on top 3:37:09.760 --> 3:37:12.119 and not be in trouble because who's gonna all them 3:37:12.160 --> 3:37:15.400 responsible that my own guy at my own department's interviewing me. 3:37:16.879 --> 3:37:19.320 We've known each other since you were kids, or I've 3:37:19.360 --> 3:37:22.600 known his dad, or his dad's known me, or or 3:37:22.680 --> 3:37:27.280 he's you know, related or whatever. It never works when 3:37:27.320 --> 3:37:30.560 the you know, the watchman are watching themselves. It doesn't work. 3:37:31.120 --> 3:37:34.160 I don't know how. We don't, well I do, you 3:37:34.240 --> 3:37:36.960 know how, But I really wish there was if we 3:37:37.080 --> 3:37:41.120 do have to still have law enforcement civilian oversight with 3:37:41.280 --> 3:37:46.400 actual power, actual authority to do. Yeah. That's that's the 3:37:46.480 --> 3:37:48.440 thing is that everywhere and a lot of the times 3:37:48.600 --> 3:37:52.680 that's been try to put into legislator, it doesn't. It's 3:37:52.720 --> 3:37:56.440 always like neutered. It's always like and I like, I've 3:37:56.680 --> 3:37:59.560 I've seen versions of it pop up in Portland and 3:37:59.640 --> 3:38:04.600 it never does anything. Yeah, And that's I mean, obviously 3:38:04.680 --> 3:38:07.920 the whole the question of is to what extent can 3:38:08.080 --> 3:38:11.920 increasing civilian oversight uh solve problems? To what extent is 3:38:11.959 --> 3:38:16.560 it like papering over them? Those are all things worth discussing. Um. 3:38:17.040 --> 3:38:18.880 I think I want to kind of keep us focused 3:38:19.000 --> 3:38:23.200 on the mindset that that inclcates, because that that's the 3:38:23.280 --> 3:38:26.360 thing that I don't think people get in part because 3:38:26.440 --> 3:38:29.360 like most people who are part of these abolitionous movements, 3:38:29.400 --> 3:38:31.400 most people who are are on the sides that we 3:38:31.520 --> 3:38:35.080 are on this um either probably don't know a police 3:38:35.120 --> 3:38:37.640 officer very well apart and certainly almost most of them 3:38:37.680 --> 3:38:40.760 have not been police officers. And I'm kind of wondering, 3:38:42.760 --> 3:38:46.160 what are you actually scared of doing as a police officer, 3:38:46.879 --> 3:38:49.680 Like what what what are you actually scared of in 3:38:49.840 --> 3:38:53.200 terms of like the blowback, the fault, Like what what 3:38:53.360 --> 3:38:55.600 is it you actually get worried about if it's not 3:38:56.959 --> 3:38:59.240 pissing off everyone else in the city who wasn't a cop, 3:38:59.280 --> 3:39:03.720 you know it? So, Yeah, what it comes down to is, uh, 3:39:04.320 --> 3:39:07.240 you know that the the Church of law, the Church 3:39:07.280 --> 3:39:11.600 of criminal justice, and what they're scared of is so 3:39:11.800 --> 3:39:15.560 if I get a dirty cop who's not blatantly doing 3:39:15.640 --> 3:39:17.800 something bad, like he just he hit a guy too 3:39:17.879 --> 3:39:21.959 hard or something. It's something that hasn't hit the news yet. Um, 3:39:22.600 --> 3:39:25.640 but I have to morally, like ethically, on paper, I'm 3:39:25.760 --> 3:39:28.440 required to have an I A division investigate these people. 3:39:29.400 --> 3:39:32.959 The reason that in my head when I was there 3:39:33.280 --> 3:39:36.400 and being interviewed for these things, it's because you have 3:39:36.560 --> 3:39:40.760 to hold up the infallibility of the law. It doesn't 3:39:40.920 --> 3:39:45.280 matter what really happened. All that matters is what's in 3:39:45.440 --> 3:39:47.800 black and white on paper in our files. If we 3:39:47.879 --> 3:39:51.680 ever get audited by a federal body and we can say, look, 3:39:51.800 --> 3:39:54.360 a bad thing happened, Yes, we investigated it, here's what 3:39:54.480 --> 3:39:57.760 Here were the results. And it's all about holding up 3:39:58.000 --> 3:40:02.000 the infallibility of the law, because if it really gets 3:40:02.040 --> 3:40:04.720 out and cops really get in trouble for stuff like 3:40:04.800 --> 3:40:06.800 some of the stuff that's been happening where cops are 3:40:06.840 --> 3:40:11.720 actually being convicted finally for doing terrible things, it erodes 3:40:12.360 --> 3:40:15.880 the blind faith that the masses have in law enforcement. 3:40:15.959 --> 3:40:19.080 Because I've heard people here in Utah, which is a 3:40:19.240 --> 3:40:22.760 very conservative place, look at some of those shootings that 3:40:22.840 --> 3:40:24.800 have happened where the cops have actually been found guilty 3:40:24.879 --> 3:40:27.760 and they've actually been like, oh wow, like I never 3:40:27.920 --> 3:40:29.920 once thought a cop would do this, And it doesn't 3:40:29.959 --> 3:40:31.960 sound like much, but in their head, that's that's a 3:40:32.040 --> 3:40:36.520 seed that's setting in their consciousness. And that's that's the 3:40:36.600 --> 3:40:39.879 whole point of the blue wall of silence and keeping 3:40:39.920 --> 3:40:45.000 everything in the house is if everybody realizes that we're 3:40:45.040 --> 3:40:47.440 just a little weird man behind a curtain, you know, 3:40:47.560 --> 3:40:49.720 the Wizard of Oz doesn't work anymore. We have to 3:40:49.840 --> 3:40:54.960 maintain this false image that we are infallible and we 3:40:55.040 --> 3:40:57.360 know we know exactly what we're doing, and we are 3:40:57.480 --> 3:41:00.360 taking care of you. You have to believe that, so 3:41:00.480 --> 3:41:06.360 they'll do anything to maintain the lie. Wow. Yeah that 3:41:06.440 --> 3:41:11.200 makes sense. It's bleak, but it makes sense. Yeah, it 3:41:11.280 --> 3:41:15.280 felt bleak being in there. This ties into kind of 3:41:16.440 --> 3:41:20.920 the the role of like lying right and and and 3:41:21.120 --> 3:41:22.800 the kind of the cult thing you're tying this into 3:41:22.959 --> 3:41:25.880 is that like colts will often talk about how the 3:41:26.840 --> 3:41:28.640 things the cult is doing are so important that you 3:41:28.720 --> 3:41:30.760 can do terrible things to achieve them, right. You see 3:41:30.760 --> 3:41:33.720 this in the Church of Scientology and their Dirty Tricks programs. 3:41:33.800 --> 3:41:36.560 Sent and On had its its version of this um 3:41:37.160 --> 3:41:39.000 and you you've written here. We are taught to lie 3:41:39.120 --> 3:41:41.160 to get what we need. It's only true if it's 3:41:41.200 --> 3:41:43.480 on tape or written down. As long as it looks good, 3:41:43.600 --> 3:41:47.480 it is good. Um and I uh, I mean it. 3:41:47.600 --> 3:41:50.920 It made me think, among other things, of a guy 3:41:51.000 --> 3:41:56.119 I used to know who became a local prosecutor um, 3:41:56.720 --> 3:42:01.640 and eventually quit because he kept being assured by police 3:42:01.680 --> 3:42:04.680 officers that like something that they had put in, like 3:42:04.879 --> 3:42:07.200 the charging document was true, and then being unable to 3:42:07.240 --> 3:42:10.320 prove it in court. Um. And it it pissed him 3:42:10.360 --> 3:42:14.720 off after a period of time. Um. And I'm interested, 3:42:14.800 --> 3:42:19.360 like in the I'm sure like obviously some fraction of 3:42:19.440 --> 3:42:22.000 people doing it are just like just literally don't give 3:42:22.000 --> 3:42:24.840 a ship. But how does someone who actually does have 3:42:24.959 --> 3:42:28.760 a moral compass and believe in the law. How does 3:42:28.800 --> 3:42:35.000 someone who really believes justify lying to screw somebody over. Um. 3:42:37.720 --> 3:42:40.119 So as the guy who was there, who had morals, 3:42:40.160 --> 3:42:44.160 which is why I'm not there anymore, I couldn't all right, 3:42:44.200 --> 3:42:46.520 And I actually got in trouble on a couple of 3:42:46.600 --> 3:42:51.480 instances of everybody was going one way on a story 3:42:52.320 --> 3:42:55.560 and I was going in the opposite direction. And without 3:42:56.040 --> 3:42:58.520 using blatant terms they use all the like the little 3:42:59.600 --> 3:43:02.240 you know, legal legal fuckory terms to not say what 3:43:02.320 --> 3:43:04.560 they're trying to say, but implying and getting it across 3:43:04.560 --> 3:43:06.200 to you of like you need to get on the 3:43:06.280 --> 3:43:09.080 same page, you need to tow the line, you need 3:43:09.160 --> 3:43:12.760 to you need to get in here. And I could 3:43:12.840 --> 3:43:16.880 never do it. I just I don't know, it's just 3:43:17.000 --> 3:43:19.879 my moral fiber won't let me do that kind of thing. Um. 3:43:20.520 --> 3:43:24.840 I once was told by a lieutenant that I had 3:43:25.080 --> 3:43:27.840 my moral fiber was too high, Like he literally told me, 3:43:27.840 --> 3:43:29.480 because you can't expect everyone else to live up to 3:43:29.480 --> 3:43:34.000 your moral standards. And I'm like, dude, we're we're supposed 3:43:34.000 --> 3:43:37.720 to be like a little bit above the typical moral standard. 3:43:37.760 --> 3:43:40.960 We're supposed to be the example of how you know, 3:43:41.160 --> 3:43:46.120 our civilians, our citizens are supposed to act. But it 3:43:46.240 --> 3:43:49.840 wasn't the truth. Yeah, I mean, my first I think 3:43:49.920 --> 3:43:53.000 kind of radicalizing thing very early on was just like 3:43:53.040 --> 3:43:55.440 the fake drug scandal in Dallas was realizing that like 3:43:55.520 --> 3:44:01.160 on a significant scale, uh, local police had been planting 3:44:01.520 --> 3:44:03.840 ship on people in order to charge them. People have 3:44:03.920 --> 3:44:08.520 gone to prison, which happens other places too, but like, yeah, um, 3:44:09.280 --> 3:44:12.520 and I'm the bulk of the work making something like 3:44:12.600 --> 3:44:15.080 that happen, isn't the people who are planting the fake drugs, 3:44:15.240 --> 3:44:17.640 the people who realize that the department will look bad 3:44:17.720 --> 3:44:20.039 if it gets out, and then dedicate themselves to stopping 3:44:20.080 --> 3:44:23.200 it from getting out even beyond because you have you know, 3:44:23.480 --> 3:44:25.440 X number of people are willing to plant plant fake 3:44:25.520 --> 3:44:27.520 drugs on a guy, but a much larger number of 3:44:27.560 --> 3:44:29.280 people are willing to try to cover that up, So 3:44:29.400 --> 3:44:31.920 it's not a problem. That's That's the thing I really 3:44:31.959 --> 3:44:34.880 appreciate about, Alex. You're framing of this in terms of 3:44:35.040 --> 3:44:38.360 like their main or not one of the main motivations 3:44:38.440 --> 3:44:42.039 is not, you know, actually doing the job itself. It's 3:44:42.040 --> 3:44:46.439 about it's about making sure that their reality and by extension, 3:44:46.520 --> 3:44:48.640 what they want everyone else as a reality to be, 3:44:49.120 --> 3:44:51.640 to stay the same. Like they all of the effort 3:44:51.720 --> 3:44:55.080 into whether that be lying for supposedly in their view, 3:44:55.240 --> 3:44:57.520 like moral reasons and all that kind of work. It's 3:44:57.560 --> 3:45:01.800 it's it's it's to maintain the specific verse s of reality. 3:45:01.840 --> 3:45:04.200 It's not it's not actually for like like it's it's 3:45:04.200 --> 3:45:08.200 it's not for like actually promoting what is like the 3:45:08.320 --> 3:45:10.840 law and the books by any means it's it's it's 3:45:10.920 --> 3:45:13.200 it's the it's the thing like in hot Fuzz, it's 3:45:13.480 --> 3:45:15.600 for the greater good. That's that's what that is. That 3:45:15.760 --> 3:45:18.040 is what they're trying to That's what they're trying to do. 3:45:18.320 --> 3:45:21.720 So even if they like, as long as their reality 3:45:21.840 --> 3:45:26.120 is maintained, then you know, we have some semblance of 3:45:26.240 --> 3:45:28.720 like order in the world, whether that be you know, 3:45:28.959 --> 3:45:34.760 this nostalgic, semi like proto militaristic nationalist version of order. 3:45:35.040 --> 3:45:37.680 But that's that's that's the thing that wants to be maintained. 3:45:37.800 --> 3:45:41.520 So every every task, everything that they're doing isn't just 3:45:41.680 --> 3:45:44.440 a simple task. It's all in the overall effort of 3:45:44.600 --> 3:45:49.320 maintaining this like this perception. Um. And and that's a 3:45:50.480 --> 3:45:56.240 a much more I think interesting way to think about police. Yeah, 3:45:56.280 --> 3:45:59.160 it really is. Uh, these guys in like in Bill talk, 3:45:59.200 --> 3:46:01.000 these guys would take the loopill in a heartbeat. Then 3:46:01.000 --> 3:46:03.360 they don't rest Morpheus for trying to deal drugs. Like 3:46:03.480 --> 3:46:06.120 that's how dedicated these guys are too, staying inside this 3:46:07.160 --> 3:46:11.680 version of their reality. Now, um, I kind of let's 3:46:12.160 --> 3:46:16.080 move on next to um the next kind of cult aspect. 3:46:16.120 --> 3:46:18.440 The leadership induces feelings of shame and or guilt in 3:46:18.560 --> 3:46:21.360 order to influence and control members. And you're talking you've 3:46:21.400 --> 3:46:25.440 lotten down here toxic masculinity and the warrior mindset. Yeah. Um, 3:46:25.600 --> 3:46:27.680 do you have any kind of like case examples of 3:46:27.760 --> 3:46:30.879 how that that actually looks of like kind of using 3:46:30.920 --> 3:46:32.720 shame or guilt to people who aren't kind of in 3:46:32.879 --> 3:46:37.400 the this quote quote unquote warrior mindset. Uh? Yeah, I 3:46:37.440 --> 3:46:40.280 mean it happened a lot. Um. There was a lot 3:46:40.320 --> 3:46:42.720 of Monday night quarterbacking that would happen, especially with the 3:46:42.800 --> 3:46:46.640 advent of like cameras and things becoming more popular. Uh. 3:46:47.200 --> 3:46:49.360 I love my body camera. That was my little best friend. 3:46:49.520 --> 3:46:52.120 But we would go you know, you go back and 3:46:52.160 --> 3:46:55.320 you'd watch videos of incidents and things, and if somebody 3:46:55.520 --> 3:46:58.520 wasn't like engaging fast enough, they would get roasted hard 3:46:58.640 --> 3:47:01.400 like haze and you know, made fun of and mocked it. 3:47:01.520 --> 3:47:05.120 And when you were in this, you know, we're a 3:47:05.240 --> 3:47:08.160 family mindset, and you're you know, we're we got each 3:47:08.160 --> 3:47:09.920 other's backs and we only understand each other. And then 3:47:09.959 --> 3:47:12.760 all of a sudden you're on the outside because you 3:47:13.040 --> 3:47:17.160 dared to have even a remotely moderate to liberal position 3:47:17.240 --> 3:47:20.200 on anything, or you didn't jump in on the you know, 3:47:20.320 --> 3:47:23.400 the the ass beating on something you fast enough, they 3:47:23.520 --> 3:47:26.560 turn on you fast. Like. The only thing I could 3:47:26.640 --> 3:47:30.560 compare it to is like you know every eighties and 3:47:30.879 --> 3:47:33.800 like nineties military movie or or you know Nerds movie 3:47:33.840 --> 3:47:35.520 where people just hate the ship out of each other, 3:47:35.600 --> 3:47:39.400 and it's that that dude brow everyone's got a our 3:47:39.520 --> 3:47:45.400 wire sun tattoo on their bicep, just rampant everywhere. I mean, 3:47:45.480 --> 3:47:47.440 it permeated the whole place. That drove me that that 3:47:47.560 --> 3:47:48.840 was one of the things that really drove me next, 3:47:48.840 --> 3:47:52.000 because I've never been that kind of guy. I've always 3:47:52.040 --> 3:47:56.440 been a a more of a a de escalation person 3:47:56.800 --> 3:47:59.039 and a book reader. And then I think it helps 3:47:59.120 --> 3:48:01.959 explain a lot why you see some of these videos 3:48:02.000 --> 3:48:03.560 where it's just like why did they go to zero 3:48:03.640 --> 3:48:05.280 to ten from zero to tend so fast with well, 3:48:05.280 --> 3:48:07.480 because somebody's gonna make fun of them and call them 3:48:07.560 --> 3:48:10.640 names if they don't go hard enough, fast enough on 3:48:10.760 --> 3:48:13.200 somebody when they do certain things like and yeah, the 3:48:13.320 --> 3:48:15.920 zero to a hundred thing also ties into that whole, 3:48:16.160 --> 3:48:20.120 that whole hyper vigilance thing, that always being um a 3:48:20.200 --> 3:48:24.000 compressed spring, and then it ties back into that warrior 3:48:24.120 --> 3:48:26.640 mindset of like they tell you flat out like if 3:48:26.640 --> 3:48:29.760 anyone ever attacks you, they're trying to kill you. It's 3:48:29.840 --> 3:48:31.800 it's there's there's no offens or, but you need to 3:48:31.840 --> 3:48:33.480 act like they're trying to kill you, because it goes 3:48:33.520 --> 3:48:35.520 back to the whole I'm going home at the end 3:48:35.560 --> 3:48:38.920 of the shift kind of thing. And once once that's 3:48:39.000 --> 3:48:42.039 ingrained itself into like your muscle memory, and that becomes 3:48:42.120 --> 3:48:45.360 the reflex, that becomes the thought that passes in front 3:48:45.400 --> 3:48:49.520 of your mind when a critical incident happens, then that's 3:48:49.560 --> 3:48:51.200 how you're gonna act, and you're gonna do and you're 3:48:51.200 --> 3:48:52.920 gonna go from zero to a hundred because you're going 3:48:52.959 --> 3:48:56.440 to assume that any little furtive movement movement which god, 3:48:56.480 --> 3:49:00.960 there's that language, furtive movement, um, any little movement that 3:49:01.040 --> 3:49:03.280 someone makes, like that's that's a green light. That's an 3:49:03.320 --> 3:49:07.080 excuse that I can end whatever interaction I'm having with 3:49:07.160 --> 3:49:11.400 this person with violence because they flinched enough where I think, Okay, 3:49:11.440 --> 3:49:16.880 I got this. Yeah Jesus. Now. One of the next 3:49:16.960 --> 3:49:19.760 ones you have here is talking about recruitment, which obviously 3:49:19.840 --> 3:49:22.120 coult STU, but also like it's a job and jobs 3:49:22.160 --> 3:49:26.080 do this constantly recruiting. I'm kind of wondering because you've 3:49:26.120 --> 3:49:28.800 you've listed here things like Explorer programs, which are like 3:49:28.960 --> 3:49:31.080 r OTC or the Boy Scouts kind of these different 3:49:31.760 --> 3:49:34.120 one of which Kyle Rittenhouse did like ways in which 3:49:34.200 --> 3:49:36.960 kind of people get onboarded. I'm wondering sort of what 3:49:37.560 --> 3:49:40.480 how you see how you see police recruitment as kind 3:49:40.560 --> 3:49:43.840 of different in a fundamentally cult your way. Then you know, 3:49:44.200 --> 3:49:46.680 every job has to bring in new people, right like, yeah, 3:49:47.920 --> 3:49:50.760 it's it's it didn't used to be this way. But 3:49:50.840 --> 3:49:53.560 I think in the in the two thousand's, especially when numbers, 3:49:53.600 --> 3:49:56.840 staffing numbers really started to drop because it's I don't 3:49:56.840 --> 3:49:58.520 know if they've just realized it wasn't worth it or 3:49:58.520 --> 3:50:01.240 they found somewhere better to get paid. But employment's gone 3:50:01.240 --> 3:50:04.200 down for law enforcement, and so recruitment goes up in response. 3:50:04.920 --> 3:50:08.200 But now they have a more active role in most 3:50:08.200 --> 3:50:11.120 places where it's almost on part of the military. They'll 3:50:11.200 --> 3:50:15.080 go to job fairs, they go to high school career days. Um, 3:50:15.680 --> 3:50:17.480 they didn't used to do that stuff, and when they do, 3:50:17.760 --> 3:50:20.960 they'll they'll find someone to like pull stuff out of 3:50:21.000 --> 3:50:25.880 the pulp cultures that geist what we know what cool? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 3:50:27.080 --> 3:50:30.000 what can we what can we cash in on to 3:50:30.120 --> 3:50:32.880 try and draw these kids in, because just like the military, 3:50:33.040 --> 3:50:38.160 cops are looking to pull in disenfranchised kids who probably 3:50:38.200 --> 3:50:40.680 aren't going to go to college, don't think it's an option. 3:50:41.600 --> 3:50:44.760 And here's this job. All you need is a high 3:50:44.800 --> 3:50:47.960 school diploma. Here's the health insurance. Here's the retirement package, 3:50:48.120 --> 3:50:50.600 which is trash. But you're seventeen. You don't know that, 3:50:50.720 --> 3:50:52.520 you don't know how to read all this. But it 3:50:52.600 --> 3:51:00.520 looks real coal. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, they or stuff. 3:51:00.600 --> 3:51:02.440 I mean you're familiar with that. So but yeah, they 3:51:02.480 --> 3:51:04.400 get little kids to go out and you know, the 3:51:04.480 --> 3:51:06.880 little baby cops, and it's I mean, it's it's one 3:51:06.920 --> 3:51:08.640 of those things, like some of this is so much 3:51:08.720 --> 3:51:13.040 deeper than even the the individual departments or any choice 3:51:13.120 --> 3:51:15.120 made by the police, because like as a kid, some 3:51:15.200 --> 3:51:17.040 of the first toys I had were cop toys, right, 3:51:17.120 --> 3:51:20.160 like everything every boy I think, like, yes, some of 3:51:20.240 --> 3:51:22.040 the first what you're gonna get badge, a gun, You're 3:51:22.080 --> 3:51:24.400 gonna play detective, You're gonna be watching cops shows, You're 3:51:24.440 --> 3:51:27.000 gonna be watching movies where cops are the and that's 3:51:27.520 --> 3:51:31.720 I mean that that's a bigger subject than today. But like, yeah, no, 3:51:31.960 --> 3:51:34.360 that is, like what the one of the most prevalent 3:51:34.640 --> 3:51:38.960 forms of media that's instilled in young uh boys? I 3:51:39.000 --> 3:51:41.520 guess yeah. You know what else is instilled in young 3:51:41.600 --> 3:51:47.480 boys the love of capitalism and products and specifically products 3:51:47.520 --> 3:51:50.680 and services. Find a child and whisper the names of 3:51:50.760 --> 3:51:54.640 our sponsor into their ears, preferably a child that's yours. 3:51:54.880 --> 3:51:57.920 Hopefully know any child, any child throw something so their 3:51:57.960 --> 3:52:02.040 parents look away, and then lean down and whisper better. 3:52:03.360 --> 3:52:06.120 You only counts if you get caught. We're back, um. 3:52:06.320 --> 3:52:09.800 And your next point was the group is preoccupied with 3:52:09.920 --> 3:52:14.160 making money, which is a huge thing for cults. Um, 3:52:14.600 --> 3:52:16.880 not all of them. There are some, like you know, 3:52:17.000 --> 3:52:19.120 there there are some cults that were shall we say 3:52:19.200 --> 3:52:24.720 pure um, but they're nearly We're like, hey man Manson, 3:52:25.480 --> 3:52:29.040 just it was all about the music and the Heaven's 3:52:29.040 --> 3:52:33.880 Gate was a pure cult. Yeah, yeah, Heaven's Gate. It 3:52:34.080 --> 3:52:40.320 certainly wasn't just the money for Heaven's But yes, cops, 3:52:40.520 --> 3:52:44.080 cops have civil acids forfeiture, which they just took a 3:52:44.160 --> 3:52:47.120 hundred thousand dollars from someone in Dallas. Yeah, and the 3:52:47.200 --> 3:52:49.960 person did not get charged with anything, um, which is 3:52:50.040 --> 3:52:54.920 usually the case. Yeah, but but I mean, yeah, like 3:52:55.560 --> 3:52:57.440 you have written here that like the main the main 3:52:57.560 --> 3:52:59.920 way is just increasing their budget as much as possible, 3:53:00.200 --> 3:53:02.400 which you have. Most police departments right now have the 3:53:02.400 --> 3:53:06.880 biggest budget they've ever had. UM specifically in like main 3:53:07.000 --> 3:53:11.120 cities we have, they're they're the most funded department, UM 3:53:11.400 --> 3:53:13.600 in in for the whole city that there's there's this 3:53:13.680 --> 3:53:15.760 there's this great gag in the opening episode of a 3:53:15.800 --> 3:53:20.760 show called Ugly Americans that's about trying to rere financialize 3:53:20.800 --> 3:53:23.720 the city's budget. And they have like like a social 3:53:23.760 --> 3:53:26.520 spending and cop budget and they take like all of 3:53:26.600 --> 3:53:28.680 social spending and move it over and leave this one 3:53:28.760 --> 3:53:30.840 tiny sliver and they're like, oh there, that's better. That 3:53:30.840 --> 3:53:34.120 will solve all the problems. Um. It's it is a 3:53:34.240 --> 3:53:37.000 better sketch than what I explaining it just like this 3:53:37.240 --> 3:53:39.840 sounds not funny, but the sketch is actually pretty good. 3:53:41.480 --> 3:53:43.720 But yes, and and it is, and it is relatively 3:53:43.760 --> 3:53:45.800 accurate in terms of just moving all the funding from 3:53:45.840 --> 3:53:51.120 social programs over into law enforcement. Yeah. So there's uh there, 3:53:51.200 --> 3:53:54.040 you know, there's everyone gets their financing different ways. There's county, 3:53:54.080 --> 3:53:56.640 there's stayed there's their city. But a common thing that 3:53:56.680 --> 3:54:00.440 would happen was, uh, law enforcement agencies woul try to 3:54:02.040 --> 3:54:06.120 take anything that they could under the umbrella of law enforcement. 3:54:06.200 --> 3:54:08.120 So if it was like, hey, we want to have more, 3:54:08.520 --> 3:54:11.360 you know, security equipment at the high school, and then 3:54:11.440 --> 3:54:12.640 the cops will be like, no, no, no, no, no, 3:54:13.040 --> 3:54:16.440 give us that money. We'll give you another another officer 3:54:16.560 --> 3:54:19.360 on campus. Or they want to hire something for the part, 3:54:19.400 --> 3:54:21.240 you know, and we want to install lights the city 3:54:21.320 --> 3:54:23.000 park to increase security. No no, no, no, no no no, 3:54:23.120 --> 3:54:25.000 you just give us that money. We'll make sure our 3:54:25.040 --> 3:54:30.280 guys patrol it more. Mm hmm. So they actively try 3:54:30.360 --> 3:54:34.200 to just like coach money from everybody else. Yeah. I mean, 3:54:34.240 --> 3:54:35.840 and you you can see this in a lot of 3:54:35.880 --> 3:54:38.560 towns where like the number one use of public funds 3:54:38.680 --> 3:54:42.120 is the police. I mean, it's it's all over the 3:54:42.200 --> 3:54:46.560 country at this point. Um, yeah, that makes sense. Uh. 3:54:47.000 --> 3:54:50.520 So members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time 3:54:50.560 --> 3:54:54.360 to the group and group related activities. Um. Yeah, because 3:54:54.360 --> 3:54:56.240 you have written here four years with no days off, 3:54:56.320 --> 3:54:58.520 but scored a satisfactor, I was told to put in 3:54:58.600 --> 3:55:02.360 more time outside of work. Yeah, So, like I said, 3:55:02.400 --> 3:55:04.840 our emails were always sounds so much like MLM ship 3:55:05.600 --> 3:55:08.040 it is. It is they they every time you're going 3:55:08.080 --> 3:55:10.160 for an email, they negg you, like, no matter what 3:55:10.440 --> 3:55:14.560 are Our scoring system was one to ten. Um, nobody 3:55:14.640 --> 3:55:17.600 ever got higher than a six. Maybe I think I 3:55:17.640 --> 3:55:20.000 saw like one or two sevens in my entire time there. 3:55:20.640 --> 3:55:23.200 And when I became a supervisor, I asked the brass 3:55:23.280 --> 3:55:24.680 I'm like, hey, I want to give this guy this 3:55:24.920 --> 3:55:28.160 this upper grade of like an eight or nine, and 3:55:28.240 --> 3:55:30.000 he told me flat, because no, we don't do that. Like, 3:55:30.080 --> 3:55:31.680 no one's allowed to get higher than a seven. And 3:55:31.760 --> 3:55:33.240 if you want a seven, you're gonna have to like 3:55:33.960 --> 3:55:36.680 write a novel about how great this person is to 3:55:36.800 --> 3:55:40.760 get them this rating. Um, it was just yeah, it was. 3:55:40.920 --> 3:55:43.480 It was consistently just pinning you down. The four years 3:55:43.520 --> 3:55:46.080 no dated off. So yeah, I did h four years 3:55:46.120 --> 3:55:48.960 straight without calling in sick once, like I took vacations. 3:55:49.120 --> 3:55:52.960 But um, when I went in from my email and 3:55:53.040 --> 3:55:55.120 he slides me a thing that says it says attendance 3:55:55.200 --> 3:55:57.280 satisfactory and I was like, what are you talking about. 3:55:57.280 --> 3:55:59.240 I was like, I haven't taken a day a sick 3:55:59.320 --> 3:56:01.320 day and four you know what? I have three kids. 3:56:01.400 --> 3:56:04.679 How do you think I managed that? Like, I've sacrificed 3:56:05.680 --> 3:56:09.240 to be here that much. And his response was, well, like, yeah, 3:56:09.240 --> 3:56:11.560 but I never see you at barbecues, I never see 3:56:11.600 --> 3:56:13.680 you at the union meetings. I never see you at 3:56:13.720 --> 3:56:18.440 the fundraisers for the sheriff's reelection, even though it's blatantly 3:56:18.480 --> 3:56:21.800 against policy and illegal to do. And I told him 3:56:21.800 --> 3:56:23.240 that in his response was, what are you gonna do? 3:56:23.280 --> 3:56:27.960 Tell on me? Are you're gonna tell Jesus? Yeah? That 3:56:28.040 --> 3:56:30.120 makes sense. Yeah, yeah, I mean who are you going 3:56:30.200 --> 3:56:33.840 to tell that? Who are you to? Yeah? And it is. 3:56:34.000 --> 3:56:38.080 It's also just like this. It isolates you from other people. 3:56:38.160 --> 3:56:40.560 It stops you from knowing folks that aren't cops. And 3:56:40.680 --> 3:56:43.440 it's yeah, it's a lot like what your up line 3:56:43.480 --> 3:56:46.200 is gonna tell you if you're selling mary kay that 3:56:46.400 --> 3:56:48.200 that that that ties into the that ties into the 3:56:48.240 --> 3:56:51.800 next point. Members are encouraged or required to live and 3:56:52.000 --> 3:56:54.640 or socialize only with other group of members. Um. And 3:56:54.760 --> 3:56:57.120 you say, this is like part of the hyper vigilance, isolate, 3:56:57.160 --> 3:56:59.440 isolation cycle. But I also see this in terms of 3:56:59.560 --> 3:57:03.320 like something I get into for fun, is I join 3:57:03.480 --> 3:57:08.400 like a wife of cops? Um? Facebook groups just because 3:57:08.440 --> 3:57:11.880 it's fast just to have all of just to have 3:57:12.000 --> 3:57:14.640 all of these like cops spouses in a Facebook group 3:57:14.680 --> 3:57:17.080 and it's super yeah, Like it's it's a really interesting 3:57:17.160 --> 3:57:20.200 like culture of like just associating with other people on 3:57:20.240 --> 3:57:23.160 the job. You know, there's like cop barbecues like you 3:57:23.240 --> 3:57:24.880 mentioned and all this kind of stuff where it's like 3:57:25.440 --> 3:57:27.880 we're the only ones that can understand you. So we're 3:57:27.880 --> 3:57:31.400 gonna build like this like you know, force field around 3:57:31.480 --> 3:57:33.520 all of us and we can be together as a 3:57:33.600 --> 3:57:36.920 family and keep out everyone else because we're the ones 3:57:37.480 --> 3:57:41.960 that really know what's up. Um. Yeah, it seems uh, 3:57:42.960 --> 3:57:45.640 I mean for some people who are really into it, 3:57:46.360 --> 3:57:50.240 I guess that is you know, that's how humans socialize 3:57:50.280 --> 3:57:51.640 in some ways. So like you know, for people who 3:57:51.680 --> 3:57:54.440 think being cops are good and quote unquote enjoy it, 3:57:54.760 --> 3:57:56.920 I'm sure they have a decent time hanging out with 3:57:56.960 --> 3:58:00.320 their cop buddies, right, Um. And I'm sure are the 3:58:01.640 --> 3:58:04.280 cops spouse Facebook groups, I'm sure they have a good 3:58:04.360 --> 3:58:08.560 time laughing about whatever viral video there is of someone 3:58:08.880 --> 3:58:10.760 using too much force you know who who knows what? 3:58:10.960 --> 3:58:13.640 Like how how they actually think about those types of 3:58:13.800 --> 3:58:17.280 very isolated environments because you know, it's it's about fend 3:58:17.440 --> 3:58:19.640 find you know, it's it's almost like it's it's extending 3:58:19.680 --> 3:58:22.440 out into like fandom rules where you're associating with other 3:58:22.520 --> 3:58:25.720 people the same way fandoms work, which is very just 3:58:25.960 --> 3:58:31.840 very similar to to how cults work. Um so, yeah, yeah, 3:58:31.880 --> 3:58:35.920 it's an armed, militant fandom. And your last point here, 3:58:36.960 --> 3:58:39.240 the most loyal members, the true believers, feel there can 3:58:39.280 --> 3:58:41.520 be no life outside the context of the group. They 3:58:41.560 --> 3:58:43.440 believe there is no other way to be, and often 3:58:43.480 --> 3:58:45.880 fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave or 3:58:45.920 --> 3:58:51.080 even consider leaving the group. Yeah, so I put in 3:58:51.200 --> 3:58:55.920 the note of just self expantiory. But yeah, it's me 3:58:57.720 --> 3:59:02.160 quitting was we eared. I knew I needed to do it, 3:59:03.520 --> 3:59:06.720 but I I had a massive existential crisis of identity 3:59:07.080 --> 3:59:11.320 and of of logistical things, but a lot of it 3:59:11.440 --> 3:59:13.160 was it was tied to my identity, and it was 3:59:13.360 --> 3:59:17.160 it was letting go of something that was like a 3:59:17.360 --> 3:59:23.760 core pillar of my personality and it really freaked me out. 3:59:23.760 --> 3:59:28.120 And I think that if I was more inside the group, 3:59:28.200 --> 3:59:29.440 and I was more like one of the guys, a 3:59:29.520 --> 3:59:31.520 golden boy or something like, I probably would have never 3:59:31.680 --> 3:59:34.440 left if I was. If I was getting that constant 3:59:34.480 --> 3:59:37.720 reinforcement of the good boy feelings, I don't think I 3:59:37.720 --> 3:59:43.280 would have quit. Um. But after I did quit, that 3:59:43.480 --> 3:59:47.040 actually kicked off a cascade of people around my same 3:59:47.120 --> 3:59:50.360 age and within my same seniority level in looking at 3:59:50.400 --> 3:59:52.360 their job and looking at what it was doing to 3:59:52.480 --> 3:59:56.520 them psychologically and physically and with their families, and thinking 3:59:56.560 --> 3:59:59.320 to themselves, Oh, I can leave that. That is how 3:59:59.440 --> 4:00:02.360 called how that is how leaving cults work. Yeah. Yeah. 4:00:02.560 --> 4:00:04.680 And so once I left, a bunch of other guys 4:00:04.760 --> 4:00:06.680 were like, oh, I don't have to do this until 4:00:06.720 --> 4:00:10.080 I'm fifty five. I can I can go start another 4:00:10.120 --> 4:00:12.760 career somewhere else. I can go start another retirement plan 4:00:12.840 --> 4:00:18.440 at a different place. And I just it felt great 4:00:18.480 --> 4:00:21.520 to see other people tear away and do that. But 4:00:21.600 --> 4:00:23.120 at the same time, I know for some ofe that 4:00:23.200 --> 4:00:27.440 it hurt mhm really bad to leave that behind, because 4:00:27.480 --> 4:00:31.240 once you're once you are out. Um, you are kind 4:00:31.280 --> 4:00:34.360 of out. Even if you leave amicably, like hey, I 4:00:34.440 --> 4:00:36.000 just want to go do something else with my life, 4:00:37.040 --> 4:00:39.840 you're no longer in those people's minds anymore, because you're 4:00:39.880 --> 4:00:41.480 not part of the team. You're not in the club, 4:00:41.600 --> 4:00:44.000 you're not in the family anymore. You're that guy that 4:00:44.160 --> 4:00:49.440 used to be here. And I guess kind of at 4:00:49.480 --> 4:00:52.440 the conclusion of this and this is you know, when 4:00:52.480 --> 4:00:53.840 you when the question is like, how do you de 4:00:54.000 --> 4:00:56.680 radicalize get people out of colts? How do you like, 4:00:57.200 --> 4:00:59.000 no one has a good answer to that. So I 4:00:59.040 --> 4:01:01.040 don't think we should expect you to suddenly have like 4:01:01.160 --> 4:01:04.920 here's how to here's how to convince everybody to stop 4:01:05.000 --> 4:01:07.160 doing this, because we can't do that for fucking Q 4:01:07.360 --> 4:01:10.880 and on, like de radicalization of the people who say 4:01:10.880 --> 4:01:13.320 they're involved in it are fucking drifting like it's it's 4:01:13.440 --> 4:01:16.560 it's a big mess of a of a fucking field 4:01:16.640 --> 4:01:18.000 in the first place. But I am wondering, do you 4:01:18.120 --> 4:01:20.720 have some insights into like, yeah, how then do we 4:01:20.800 --> 4:01:25.120 de radicalize these people? Uh? Like I don't think there 4:01:25.280 --> 4:01:27.680 is Like I don't think there is a cookie cutter 4:01:27.680 --> 4:01:30.480 answer for like pulling people out. Um, you know, we 4:01:30.560 --> 4:01:32.720 can't bag them in a white vand and take them 4:01:32.760 --> 4:01:36.560 to a hotel. Uh. The only thing I can think 4:01:36.560 --> 4:01:39.720 of that would actually change the culture is a huge 4:01:39.800 --> 4:01:45.000 shift in our national culture around like mental health and 4:01:45.120 --> 4:01:49.920 toxic masculinity and you know, wrapping your identity into into 4:01:50.000 --> 4:01:51.800 your job. Because it's not just cops that do this. 4:01:51.880 --> 4:01:54.840 There's it's it's it's it's like that is that is 4:01:54.920 --> 4:01:58.680 America now? Is that is like hustle culture. That is 4:01:58.720 --> 4:02:02.480 what the idea of a rear is. My name is 4:02:02.880 --> 4:02:06.520 blank and I am a blank. Like career. Career comes 4:02:06.560 --> 4:02:09.560 from the word that means like careening, like you are 4:02:09.680 --> 4:02:13.160 going full force into this thing that is that is 4:02:13.240 --> 4:02:15.960 what you are doing now. That is your existence, is 4:02:16.080 --> 4:02:20.160 your career. You're going at it um. That is that 4:02:20.320 --> 4:02:23.600 is what this whole country is built on. Uh So 4:02:24.360 --> 4:02:26.480 getting out of that for a lot of people, for 4:02:26.560 --> 4:02:30.200 just regular jobs, it's difficult. Now adding on the idea 4:02:30.320 --> 4:02:33.920 that you are the thing that holds society together, that 4:02:34.120 --> 4:02:37.160 is that that has a whole other level of complexity, 4:02:37.280 --> 4:02:41.520 like psychologically for the person inside it um because I'm sure, 4:02:41.640 --> 4:02:44.120 like telemarketers, if you can get really into it and 4:02:44.240 --> 4:02:46.600 make money, sure that can be a career. But you know, 4:02:46.800 --> 4:02:50.160 you're not holding society together, and like that's not that's 4:02:50.160 --> 4:02:53.000 not that's not a delusion that you have and nobody 4:02:53.160 --> 4:03:01.200 outside shares has There's there there is, there is no 4:03:01.360 --> 4:03:05.520 thin telemarketing line of supporting you. So it is it 4:03:05.720 --> 4:03:08.680 is different for like police specifically, even more so than 4:03:08.720 --> 4:03:11.400 like firefighters or like E. M. T. S. UM. This 4:03:11.920 --> 4:03:15.440 particular fandom that's developed around police and and and like 4:03:15.600 --> 4:03:20.160 the the incredible self importance that they is that is 4:03:20.200 --> 4:03:24.200 cultivated um to. Yeah, like the idea of I'm doing 4:03:24.280 --> 4:03:29.080 this to maintain reality is like a very like big 4:03:29.200 --> 4:03:31.400 thing to tell yourself and get getting out of that 4:03:31.520 --> 4:03:36.920 seems uh challenging. Yeah, it really is. It's like it's 4:03:36.920 --> 4:03:39.280 almost it's almost worse than most like churches in a 4:03:39.360 --> 4:03:43.560 sense because in this version it's so it's so materialized. 4:03:43.760 --> 4:03:46.040 It's it's it is, Yeah, it's it's it's right in 4:03:46.080 --> 4:03:47.200 front of you. I can reach out and touch it 4:03:47.280 --> 4:03:49.440 because I'm part of society. But if I'm not here 4:03:49.560 --> 4:03:52.880 and we're not here, you know, anarchy the bad guy 4:03:53.000 --> 4:03:55.080 that the way people think the word means, you know, 4:03:55.200 --> 4:03:58.200 everything's gonna catch fire. And the only reason people are 4:03:58.240 --> 4:03:59.920 good to each other is because the law makes them 4:04:00.040 --> 4:04:01.920 me that way and all that kind of toxic bs. 4:04:03.240 --> 4:04:05.400 So the only thing I can think of to be 4:04:05.480 --> 4:04:08.880 like to help de radicalize people is it's almost like 4:04:09.240 --> 4:04:11.880 treating someone in your family that listens to too much 4:04:11.920 --> 4:04:14.920 Q and on is to you know, if you know 4:04:15.040 --> 4:04:16.880 a cop or you have a friend that used to 4:04:16.880 --> 4:04:18.920 be a cop, and he ever like reaches out to you, 4:04:20.360 --> 4:04:23.000 maybe with like kid gloves, kind of be like, hey, 4:04:24.200 --> 4:04:28.800 how you doing just small things because that could maybe 4:04:29.080 --> 4:04:31.840 lead to him putting them putting something on their shelf. 4:04:31.960 --> 4:04:33.680 Just like when people get out of religions and things, 4:04:34.360 --> 4:04:36.960 they'll often reach out to people and be like, hey, 4:04:37.800 --> 4:04:42.720 this is such a fucking it kind of means something 4:04:42.760 --> 4:04:44.800 if he's going outside of the group, and so yeah, 4:04:44.920 --> 4:04:48.880 maybe recognize that, Like, you have an opportunity. Yeah, if 4:04:48.960 --> 4:04:50.360 if a cop reaches out to you, it's just like 4:04:50.440 --> 4:04:52.560 someone in a religious institution. They're reaching out to you 4:04:52.680 --> 4:04:56.320 because they feel safe talking to you because you're not 4:04:56.320 --> 4:04:58.320 going to turn them in. You it's not gonna have 4:04:58.400 --> 4:05:05.480 any h immediate impact on their life right now. Yeah 4:05:05.560 --> 4:05:10.120 that makes sense? Um, all right, well, Alexander, anything else 4:05:10.160 --> 4:05:13.800 you wanted to get into. I mean I could talk 4:05:13.800 --> 4:05:15.760 about this kind of stuff for days and days and 4:05:15.840 --> 4:05:18.800 hours and hours, the whole hyper vigilance cycle. And like 4:05:18.920 --> 4:05:20.560 I said, I've read a bunch of books on it. 4:05:20.640 --> 4:05:24.120 I really tried to get training on just the hyper 4:05:24.200 --> 4:05:26.600 vigilance cycle. Like, well, if you ask most cops about 4:05:26.680 --> 4:05:28.360 hyper vigilance, they would just look at you and be like, 4:05:28.360 --> 4:05:30.080 I don't even know what that means what you're talking about, 4:05:30.840 --> 4:05:32.360 which is why I used to I used to give 4:05:32.440 --> 4:05:36.040 this book the Emotional Survival Bout for law enforcement. I would. 4:05:36.120 --> 4:05:38.840 I gave it to new hires, and some of those 4:05:38.880 --> 4:05:42.000 new hires didn't come back, and I'm fine with that. 4:05:42.400 --> 4:05:47.000 Yeah that's good. Yeah, some of them looked at it 4:05:47.000 --> 4:05:48.960 and we're like, no, I'm not signing up for this 4:05:49.120 --> 4:05:51.360 because you you really don't know what you're signing up 4:05:51.400 --> 4:05:53.440 for the real stuff that you're signing up for until 4:05:53.480 --> 4:06:00.520 you're in it. Yeah yeah, I mean also a cult 4:06:00.880 --> 4:06:07.880 um Yeah yeah, well all right, uh Alexander, thank you 4:06:08.000 --> 4:06:10.200 so much for coming on and for sharing this with us. 4:06:10.240 --> 4:06:13.200 I think it's a useful look behind the curtain um 4:06:13.680 --> 4:06:18.000 that that folks need um and this has been it 4:06:18.120 --> 4:06:22.680 could happen here. You can find Garrison on the internet. 4:06:22.720 --> 4:06:25.720 Go go go track down Garrison's fake Facebook account. You 4:06:25.800 --> 4:06:28.760 know what goes do that you can't you can? I 4:06:29.000 --> 4:06:31.960 I have I have made up possible specifically For this reason, 4:06:33.680 --> 4:06:38.520 a cop wife group with Harrison joined me and Vanessa 4:06:38.800 --> 4:06:43.160 so we could discuss our husband's careers. Hey, for all 4:06:43.240 --> 4:06:45.880 you know, you may cause the de radicalization of the 4:06:45.960 --> 4:06:50.240 cop Yeah. That or Garrison just gets really weirdly into 4:06:50.400 --> 4:06:55.320 role playing as the wife of Like a career episode 4:06:55.440 --> 4:06:59.760 is over, we are done. This is I am pulling 4:06:59.840 --> 4:07:15.520 the luck. Hi, I'm Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4:07:15.600 --> 4:07:18.040 And where the hosts of the science podcast Stuff to 4:07:18.080 --> 4:07:20.640 Blow Your Mind, where every week we get to explore 4:07:20.720 --> 4:07:23.600 some of the weirdest questions in the universe, Like if 4:07:23.680 --> 4:07:26.880 sci fi teleportation was possible, how would it square with 4:07:26.960 --> 4:07:30.400 the multitudes of organisms that inhabit our human bodies? Can 4:07:30.480 --> 4:07:34.280 we find evidence of emotions in animals like bees, ants, 4:07:34.360 --> 4:07:39.120 and crayfish? How would it interplanetary civilization function just free 4:07:39.160 --> 4:07:43.200 will exist? Stuff to Blow Your Mind examines neurological quandaries, 4:07:43.440 --> 4:07:48.480 cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, and the wonders of techno history. Basically, 4:07:48.680 --> 4:07:51.400 this show is the altar where we worship the weirdness 4:07:51.680 --> 4:07:54.360 of reality. If anybody ever told you you ask the 4:07:54.520 --> 4:07:57.600 weirdest questions, it is time to come join us in 4:07:57.640 --> 4:08:00.320 the place where you belong. The Stuff to Blow Your 4:08:00.360 --> 4:08:04.200 Mind podcast. New episodes publish every Tuesday and Thursday, with 4:08:04.280 --> 4:08:07.280 bonus episodes on Saturdays. Listen to Stuff to Blow Your 4:08:07.320 --> 4:08:10.080 Mind on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 4:08:10.080 --> 4:08:15.480 wherever you get your podcasts. After thirty years, it's time 4:08:15.520 --> 4:08:17.840 to return to the halls of West Beverly High and 4:08:17.960 --> 4:08:20.360 hang out at the peach pit on the podcast. Nine 4:08:20.400 --> 4:08:23.160 O two one o MG joined Jenny Garth and Tori 4:08:23.320 --> 4:08:26.200 Spelling for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly Hills 4:08:26.280 --> 4:08:28.600 nine O two one oh. From the very beginning, we 4:08:28.840 --> 4:08:31.760 get to tell the fans all of the behind the 4:08:31.800 --> 4:08:34.680 scenes stories to actually happen, so they know what happened 4:08:34.720 --> 4:08:37.440 on camera obviously, but we can tell them all the 4:08:37.480 --> 4:08:39.800 good stuff that happened off camera. Get all the juicy 4:08:39.880 --> 4:08:43.240 details of every episode that you've been wondering about for decades. 4:08:43.320 --> 4:08:45.720 As nine O two one oh, super fan and radio 4:08:45.840 --> 4:08:49.000 host Sissany sits in with Jenny and Tory, two reminisce, 4:08:49.120 --> 4:08:52.600 reflect and relive each moment, from Brandon and Kelly's first 4:08:52.680 --> 4:08:56.760 kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, you have an amazing memory. 4:08:56.880 --> 4:09:00.320 You remember everything about the entire tenure is that we 4:09:00.360 --> 4:09:04.200 filmed that show, and you remember absolutely nothing of the 4:09:04.280 --> 4:09:07.640 ten years that we filmed that show. Listen to nine 4:09:07.720 --> 4:09:10.040 O two one OMG on the I Heart Radio app, 4:09:10.040 --> 4:09:19.440 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Harrison starts 4:09:19.440 --> 4:09:21.440 the episode. I don't trust Robbert to me. You want 4:09:21.480 --> 4:09:24.480 me to start? I don't trust Rowbert to this. It's time, Garrison, 4:09:24.520 --> 4:09:27.600 it's time for you to learn. Wow, my advice is 4:09:27.680 --> 4:09:30.560 a tonal shrieking. I am not doing that. Everyone's gonna 4:09:30.560 --> 4:09:34.720 be like, oh, Garrison's just copying Robert's tone and cadence. 4:09:36.480 --> 4:09:38.920 You mean you mean they're making sounds with my mouth. Yeah, 4:09:38.960 --> 4:09:44.280 that's that's how. That's how, that's how communication works. Start 4:09:44.360 --> 4:09:47.520 the episode with that and trigger everybody like me. You 4:09:47.680 --> 4:09:55.320 use a microphone, it's very real. Yeah, you stieve we're recording. 4:09:55.680 --> 4:10:00.160 Let's let's do this. Hey, it's time for stories. We 4:10:00.240 --> 4:10:02.840 love we love stories here Attika had happen here pod 4:10:03.080 --> 4:10:05.560 the podcast about how things are kind of falling apart 4:10:05.640 --> 4:10:08.480 and too maybe some ways to put them back together. Um, 4:10:08.720 --> 4:10:11.600 I'm Garrison, I'm starting this episode today. I'm not sure why. 4:10:13.360 --> 4:10:17.080 Hungover Robert is real hungry because I didn't trust Robert 4:10:17.160 --> 4:10:19.600 to do his job today. But I trust you, Garrison. 4:10:20.280 --> 4:10:22.360 You didn't really not trust me to do my job. 4:10:22.480 --> 4:10:26.160 I know. That's that's fun. Um. We also we also 4:10:26.280 --> 4:10:37.120 Christopher here hey, and and we have uh writer Rebecca Campbell. Hello, hey, 4:10:38.720 --> 4:10:42.600 and uh what why don't you briefly explain who who 4:10:42.720 --> 4:10:47.520 you are and what what's what's going on today? Okay, Well, 4:10:47.680 --> 4:10:50.560 I'm a Canadian writer and sometimes I'm a teacher, but 4:10:50.760 --> 4:10:53.440 mostly I just write really sad stories about climate change 4:10:53.680 --> 4:10:57.920 and coasts and aies and near future stuff like that. Um. 4:10:59.760 --> 4:11:01.720 This story I'm reading it is called Thank You from 4:11:01.880 --> 4:11:04.560 Your Patients. It came out and reckoning for I guess 4:11:04.680 --> 4:11:08.440 last year. And uh. It's based on my partner's time 4:11:08.480 --> 4:11:11.040 when he was working in a call center and the 4:11:11.080 --> 4:11:13.360 kind of nightmares stories that I heard from him every 4:11:13.400 --> 4:11:16.240 time he came home from work. But it's also about 4:11:16.320 --> 4:11:18.120 me being on the other side of the country from 4:11:18.160 --> 4:11:19.640 the part of the world that I love the most, 4:11:19.720 --> 4:11:23.840 which is the Pacific Northwest. Um. And you know, watching 4:11:23.920 --> 4:11:27.040 Fukushima a few years ago and watching wildfires a few 4:11:27.080 --> 4:11:31.280 weeks ago, and um, being separated from the things that 4:11:31.720 --> 4:11:36.280 are important to you. Um as they're all falling apart. Well, 4:11:36.360 --> 4:11:39.560 I'm just excited that this podcast is now two fifths Canadian, 4:11:39.800 --> 4:11:43.720 so that's that's the main thing I'm excited about. Oh no, 4:11:44.440 --> 4:11:47.240 oh my god, I just Tim Horton's cup just appeared 4:11:47.320 --> 4:11:51.520 next to me. It's terrible donut I have. I do 4:11:51.680 --> 4:11:55.560 have a Tim Horton's kept in my kitchen. Um anyway, 4:11:56.160 --> 4:12:00.240 let's uh, let's let's let's start this, start this, start 4:12:00.320 --> 4:12:03.680 this reading, Let's eat this popsicle stand as they say 4:12:04.560 --> 4:12:11.240 a thing, let's continue, Let's let's eat this. Okay, thank 4:12:11.320 --> 4:12:16.320 you for your patients. I'm lucky because they replaced a 4:12:16.360 --> 4:12:18.480 bunch of chairs last month and I got a new one. 4:12:19.120 --> 4:12:21.120 A good chair is important when you spend ten hours 4:12:21.160 --> 4:12:23.840 a day in a cubicle talking to strangers about their problems. 4:12:25.000 --> 4:12:27.000 I've been here three years and worked on most of 4:12:27.040 --> 4:12:30.400 Western Morgan's services, which means I can, with no thought, 4:12:30.520 --> 4:12:33.680 help grandma set up her WiFi or troublesheet banking software, 4:12:34.120 --> 4:12:36.000 or set up your cell phone plan, or help you 4:12:36.080 --> 4:12:38.800 with some app designed to find your soulmate that nevertheless 4:12:38.880 --> 4:12:42.360 fills you with hopelessness. I can't help you with the hopelessness. 4:12:43.920 --> 4:12:47.280 It's nonstandard. But I'm Western Morgan's floater, and Jordi or 4:12:47.360 --> 4:12:49.720 Kirsty just dropped me where the calls are heavy or 4:12:49.760 --> 4:12:52.800 turnover as high. On Twitter, I can answer questions within 4:12:52.960 --> 4:12:55.640 five seconds of some asshole in Toronto saying what the 4:12:55.720 --> 4:12:59.160 fuck my TV doesn't see the house network, and I respond, 4:13:00.000 --> 4:13:02.280 I'm sorry to hear that Toronto asshole. Let's see if 4:13:02.280 --> 4:13:05.840 I can help. I'm impossible to rile because I've heard everything, 4:13:05.920 --> 4:13:10.560 every possible stupid question, every strange request regarding lapsed policies 4:13:10.600 --> 4:13:14.800 and misspayments, every paranoid rand, every sort of impotent rage. 4:13:15.200 --> 4:13:17.920 The management is shitty and the customers are irritable, but 4:13:18.000 --> 4:13:22.880 there's beauty and problem solving. The really bad stuff started 4:13:22.920 --> 4:13:24.680 at the end of last month, when I had to 4:13:24.760 --> 4:13:27.280 do on one on one majority team lead for the floor. 4:13:27.880 --> 4:13:30.160 I've been fielding a bunch of questions regarding a recent 4:13:30.200 --> 4:13:33.080 patch that had broken everything. I had this rhythm, hitting 4:13:33.160 --> 4:13:37.360 my thirty second age and typing without thinking, mark here, 4:13:37.680 --> 4:13:40.440 how can I help you? But one on one is 4:13:40.520 --> 4:13:44.600 mandated interruptions. So I listened to Geordy brainstorm about improving morale. 4:13:45.440 --> 4:13:48.320 They stopped having barbecues because it was too expensive, even 4:13:48.360 --> 4:13:51.360 when the burgers were sawdust and soy. Also, no one 4:13:51.440 --> 4:13:54.040 wanted to be outside because Detroit was still burning and 4:13:54.120 --> 4:13:58.160 the PPM up to something like Beijing. Listen to this 4:13:58.920 --> 4:14:03.240 Western Morrigan idle Jordi told me, we judge three of 4:14:03.320 --> 4:14:05.280 the top right calls, and we have a thing and 4:14:05.400 --> 4:14:08.840 someone walks away with a Timmy's gift card like fifty bucks. 4:14:09.720 --> 4:14:12.960 Jordy said that like it was a good thing. What 4:14:13.040 --> 4:14:15.600 about a key, fop, I asked, we can't get out 4:14:15.680 --> 4:14:18.240 with what without one? After hours? But only management could 4:14:18.320 --> 4:14:21.440 hold or the winner gets to wear Jane's or keep 4:14:21.480 --> 4:14:24.320 their phone for a shift. That didn't rate an answer. 4:14:24.440 --> 4:14:27.320 The most frustrating thing about Western Morgan is that team 4:14:27.400 --> 4:14:29.960 leads have to hold your phone like you're an untrusted 4:14:30.160 --> 4:14:33.680 teenager who's been grounded. I feel like I'm lost in 4:14:33.760 --> 4:14:36.520 a cave or a space station. When I do a 4:14:36.560 --> 4:14:38.680 lot of overtime. I arrived when it's dark, and I 4:14:38.800 --> 4:14:41.120 leave when it's dark. And while sometimes I go around 4:14:41.120 --> 4:14:44.760 the corner for coffee or McNuggets, it always feels like 4:14:44.920 --> 4:14:47.800 I'm just visiting the world. I don't know what's happened 4:14:47.880 --> 4:14:49.840 if a government's fall on, or if an ice shelf 4:14:49.880 --> 4:14:53.560 has collapsed, if Detroit is burning again, or maybe California 4:14:53.960 --> 4:14:56.240 or the Great Lakes are dying at a slightly faster 4:14:56.480 --> 4:15:00.280 rate than they were before I left for work, never 4:15:00.400 --> 4:15:03.040 knowing what's going on outside. I sit in my good 4:15:03.120 --> 4:15:07.280 chair and say that sounds frustrating to everyone, no matter 4:15:07.320 --> 4:15:10.320 who's talking or what they want. Let me see if 4:15:10.320 --> 4:15:14.880 I understand your problem. You could judge Geordie, Stead said, 4:15:14.960 --> 4:15:19.120 still talking about Morrel. You're impartial. You hate everyone. I 4:15:19.200 --> 4:15:22.520 don't hate everyone, Georgy, I said reflexively, though, to be fair, 4:15:22.640 --> 4:15:26.360 I hate a lot of people here. After my mandated 4:15:26.440 --> 4:15:28.680 fifteen minutes with Gejority, I saw that Misty had a 4:15:28.760 --> 4:15:31.160 problem with my documentation, which has been rough since they 4:15:31.240 --> 4:15:34.200 changed policy on me. She's in the Philippines, where most 4:15:34.280 --> 4:15:36.920 of the real work happens. Upper management is all in India. 4:15:37.160 --> 4:15:40.360 They only have us because they need Canadian accents on 4:15:40.480 --> 4:15:42.760 the phones and they get tax breaks. Bringing jobs to 4:15:42.800 --> 4:15:46.120 one of the more desolate parts of the country downwind 4:15:46.200 --> 4:15:49.800 from Detroit, rampant West Nile and of the province's heavy 4:15:49.840 --> 4:15:54.320 metals processed at the plant out by the ball of 4:15:54.360 --> 4:15:56.320 the baby is born. Here are girls something to do 4:15:56.400 --> 4:16:00.560 with residual b p A Misty is on the other 4:16:00.640 --> 4:16:03.720 side of the Pacific in Lagazpi. But you think she 4:16:03.840 --> 4:16:08.120 was right here considering how aggressively she organizes us. Your 4:16:08.160 --> 4:16:10.360 ship at filling out forms mark the right up is 4:16:10.360 --> 4:16:13.880 going to kill your rank. We're stack ranked. Every shift 4:16:14.200 --> 4:16:16.600 it gets you points you can redeem. You can redeem, 4:16:16.640 --> 4:16:19.720 which honestly is worth it for the grocery store gift cards. 4:16:21.080 --> 4:16:25.760 Just tell me what I did wrong. Lagazpi. We were 4:16:25.800 --> 4:16:27.960 in the middle of a rough month. The flu hit 4:16:28.040 --> 4:16:30.160 everywhere at once, and no one could afford to lose 4:16:30.200 --> 4:16:31.920 the work, So we had a bunch of people come 4:16:31.960 --> 4:16:34.960 in sick coughs and juicy sneezes all over the floor, 4:16:35.120 --> 4:16:37.360 and half the time you got on the elevator and 4:16:37.480 --> 4:16:41.880 everyone was gray faced and weaving. I came in over 4:16:41.920 --> 4:16:44.640 the weekend to cover mobile because they lost half their staff. 4:16:44.720 --> 4:16:46.640 So I'd been on for eight days by Monday, when 4:16:46.720 --> 4:16:49.280 Jordy was manic trying to call people in so he 4:16:49.280 --> 4:16:51.640 wouldn't have to go on the phones. He always says 4:16:51.680 --> 4:16:54.440 when we're smoking outside, and he's pointedly not looking at 4:16:54.480 --> 4:16:56.920 the place where the GAM building used to be. It's 4:16:56.960 --> 4:16:59.360 not the extra fifty cents an hour. It's the fact 4:16:59.480 --> 4:17:02.800 I don't have to deal with people. He hated taking calls. 4:17:04.440 --> 4:17:06.680 He offered me overtime, so I started coming in at 4:17:06.720 --> 4:17:09.080 six and leaving at ten, and I didn't even notice 4:17:09.120 --> 4:17:12.360 the weekend. I do remember going home those nights and 4:17:12.520 --> 4:17:15.720 thinking how hollow my room felt with my roommates playing 4:17:15.800 --> 4:17:17.760 Call of Duty in the living room, and how my 4:17:17.840 --> 4:17:22.320 body seemed to vibrate caffeine maybe your pseudophedan. I heard 4:17:22.360 --> 4:17:25.360 phantom time warnings and chimes, and when I closed my eyes, 4:17:25.480 --> 4:17:28.000 I could see the screen and call after call flooding 4:17:28.040 --> 4:17:31.600 the queue. By Saturday, Western Morgan was a haunted house, 4:17:31.680 --> 4:17:36.280 but I still wasn't sick. That sounds frustrating. Let me 4:17:36.320 --> 4:17:41.080 see if I can help. I was dealing with this 4:17:41.240 --> 4:17:45.040 woman on Vancouver Islands who couldn't generate invoices. We've been 4:17:45.080 --> 4:17:46.600 at it for two hours, and I could feel her 4:17:46.640 --> 4:17:48.760 getting upset when I told her to wipe the whole 4:17:48.800 --> 4:17:50.880 system and start again. I could help her with that, 4:17:51.320 --> 4:17:53.200 but she was like, no, we'll lose two weeks of work. 4:17:53.320 --> 4:17:55.680 There's nothing I can say to that, so we keep 4:17:55.720 --> 4:17:59.040 troubleshooting even though it's pointless. Okay, I said, you can 4:17:59.080 --> 4:18:02.560 go back to your root invoice and try. Oh, she 4:18:02.680 --> 4:18:06.320 said what? And that was it. I didn't hear anything 4:18:06.400 --> 4:18:08.520 but the line itself, which just went dead, that kind 4:18:08.560 --> 4:18:10.680 of absence you get when someone hangs up on you. 4:18:12.040 --> 4:18:15.080 Are you there, ma'am? I called back, but I got 4:18:15.120 --> 4:18:18.000 a reorder tone, not voice mail or an old fashioned 4:18:18.040 --> 4:18:20.720 busy signal, but the one that means the whole system 4:18:20.840 --> 4:18:25.080 is busier, blocked or down. I dropped out of the 4:18:25.160 --> 4:18:27.440 queue then, which you're not supposed to do, obviously, and 4:18:27.480 --> 4:18:29.880 went looking for Jordy, who was chatting with Kirsty about 4:18:29.880 --> 4:18:32.880 Western Morgan idol. I asked if they knew anything, but 4:18:32.960 --> 4:18:34.440 of course they didn't. And when I asked if I 4:18:34.440 --> 4:18:36.400 could at least grab my phone to see what was happening, 4:18:36.520 --> 4:18:40.880 Kirsty did a kind of elementary school teacher sigh. Documentation 4:18:41.040 --> 4:18:45.520 for three eight zero your overdue mark call you dropped. 4:18:46.480 --> 4:18:50.160 I saw that explanation happening across the board. Looks like 4:18:50.240 --> 4:18:54.480 the problems at their end. I didn't find out until 4:18:54.560 --> 4:18:57.000 Moe came back from break streeked wet in the way 4:18:57.080 --> 4:18:59.440 you are if you run out into that rain blowing 4:18:59.480 --> 4:19:01.120 in from to for it because you don't want it 4:19:01.160 --> 4:19:03.800 to touch your skin, saying earthquake on the West coast, 4:19:04.040 --> 4:19:07.240 You know anyone out there? I thought about the woman 4:19:07.320 --> 4:19:09.440 trying to get the invoice together for a tiny order 4:19:09.520 --> 4:19:13.200 of sea salts from some equally tiny place on Vancouver Island. 4:19:13.400 --> 4:19:17.600 Her business so miniscule it's still fit into our cheapest subscription. 4:19:18.960 --> 4:19:21.960 In my unsubmitted documentation for Misty, I had written that 4:19:22.000 --> 4:19:25.120 her voice sounded like a hopeful but slightly overwhelmed great 4:19:25.160 --> 4:19:29.400 aunt trying to make the remote control work. No one, 4:19:29.520 --> 4:19:32.480 how bad like nine point six, the worst since forever, 4:19:32.640 --> 4:19:36.760 like for hundreds of years, Jesus, I said, Jesus, Jesus, 4:19:37.920 --> 4:19:41.200 I've had similar moments on calls. When the shooting happened 4:19:41.240 --> 4:19:43.800 in Montreal, not View ma Real, but the one with 4:19:43.880 --> 4:19:46.760 the kids ran downtown from McGill and the photographer caught 4:19:46.760 --> 4:19:48.880 the girl as the bullet tour at her right kneecap. 4:19:50.120 --> 4:19:52.000 I was on the line with this dick wad in 4:19:52.040 --> 4:19:55.720 a coworking place on Maisonneuve, who was talking, who was 4:19:55.720 --> 4:19:59.520 asking to talk to my supervisor then midwine, he stopped talking, 4:19:59.800 --> 4:20:02.480 like he suddenly didn't care about my attitude. I could 4:20:02.520 --> 4:20:06.680 hear his phone pinging, sir, are you there? Can you 4:20:06.800 --> 4:20:08.520 hear that it's happening on the street. I can see 4:20:09.200 --> 4:20:12.120 a faint popping voice raised and doors slammed. Then he 4:20:12.160 --> 4:20:16.720 cut the call. I kept in the queue, helped someone update. 4:20:16.760 --> 4:20:19.840 I did a subscription renewal. The next person, though, needed 4:20:19.880 --> 4:20:22.160 a backup, and that took forever, so we chatted about 4:20:22.200 --> 4:20:25.480 hockey until she said, did you hear about Montreal? No, ma'am, 4:20:25.720 --> 4:20:28.480 I said, thinking about the sound I maybe heard before 4:20:28.560 --> 4:20:33.120 his phone cut. Firecrackers, backfires. Some guy shot up the 4:20:33.200 --> 4:20:35.960 whole downtown. I think it was terrorists, who knows FLQ 4:20:36.200 --> 4:20:38.720 or Muslims, maybe Red Power fifty dead, but it was 4:20:38.760 --> 4:20:42.880 going up every single time ever fresh the page. She 4:20:43.040 --> 4:20:45.240 kept going on like this while we did a backup, 4:20:45.440 --> 4:20:47.640 and then I made sure everything worked. And it had 4:20:47.680 --> 4:20:49.600 been like three hours at that point, and I kept 4:20:49.680 --> 4:20:51.800 thinking of the guy and his silence and what was 4:20:51.880 --> 4:20:53.720 going on in the streets WHI we talked about his 4:20:53.840 --> 4:20:57.040 log in and how unprofessional I was. I don't have 4:20:57.080 --> 4:20:59.160 any friends in Montreal. I went there once to drink 4:20:59.160 --> 4:21:01.600 when I was eighteen. But that's it. I just had 4:21:01.640 --> 4:21:04.720 that guy and the thump of footsteps fleeing the coworking space. 4:21:06.160 --> 4:21:08.280 When I took my break, the rain was falling again, 4:21:08.440 --> 4:21:11.000 the faintly gray kind that runs down the sidewalks and 4:21:11.080 --> 4:21:13.400 the gutters, and when it builds up enough, you can 4:21:13.480 --> 4:21:16.000 see it's a little milky because it's full of ash. 4:21:16.880 --> 4:21:19.120 If you think too hard about what's running into your 4:21:19.200 --> 4:21:22.680 eyes as you stand outside smoking until your pack is empty, 4:21:23.040 --> 4:21:25.320 you go eat a twenty four box of tim Bits 4:21:25.440 --> 4:21:27.720 or six Big Max, or you stop for one beer 4:21:27.800 --> 4:21:29.720 on the way home and only leave when they push 4:21:29.760 --> 4:21:33.200 you out the door. Jordy was outside. I gave him 4:21:33.200 --> 4:21:35.600 a cigarette, even though he doesn't smoke either, and he said, 4:21:36.040 --> 4:21:38.080 it doesn't seem to be getting cleaner. Wasn't it supposed 4:21:38.080 --> 4:21:41.040 to get cleaner. He grew up in Detroit, though he 4:21:41.120 --> 4:21:44.760 was already over here when it burned last year. Maybe 4:21:44.800 --> 4:21:47.440 it's safer. The ham is worse. I thought the ham 4:21:47.520 --> 4:21:48.960 was supposed to go away. When they send in the 4:21:49.000 --> 4:21:53.640 cleanup cruise, we watched the warm, ash colored water run 4:21:53.720 --> 4:21:56.640 down the gutters until it was ankle deep. This city 4:21:56.880 --> 4:21:59.640 is a wetland, and there isn't far for water to go, 4:21:59.840 --> 4:22:02.440 so it ends up in people's basements. All that ashy, 4:22:02.560 --> 4:22:06.920 bony water running through foundations and drains, a constant trickle 4:22:07.000 --> 4:22:09.680 in the background, sort of like the fate pop you 4:22:09.800 --> 4:22:11.560 might hear while you're on the phone with a guy 4:22:11.640 --> 4:22:16.000 from Montreal who wants to talk to your manager. Does 4:22:16.080 --> 4:22:21.200 it feel Jordy said, and lit another cigarette. What Jordy, 4:22:22.040 --> 4:22:26.520 I hate how often he doesn't finish his sentences. Does 4:22:26.560 --> 4:22:28.760 it feel like it's happening more now? The sort of thing. 4:22:30.880 --> 4:22:33.240 I dropped my smoke into the rain water and I shrugged. 4:22:33.240 --> 4:22:34.880 Then I said I wish I knew what to tell you, 4:22:35.200 --> 4:22:37.160 which wasn't a real answer, and I used my tech 4:22:37.200 --> 4:22:40.480 support voice when I said it, because I didn't want 4:22:40.520 --> 4:22:44.760 to have that conversation. On my first break after the earthquake, 4:22:44.840 --> 4:22:47.320 I smoked and watched the rain and videos on my phone. 4:22:47.400 --> 4:22:50.280 Someone live streaming the moment it hit bored talk about 4:22:50.280 --> 4:22:52.880 food or weather, than a strange look on their face. 4:22:53.160 --> 4:22:57.560 Their eyes dart upward, then the phone falls overhead Footage 4:22:57.600 --> 4:23:02.720 from helicopters a downtown Vancouver, all those green towers swaying 4:23:02.800 --> 4:23:05.960 and falling and the bridge swinging until the cable snap 4:23:06.080 --> 4:23:09.960 like rubber bands, the worst in recorded history, worse probably 4:23:10.040 --> 4:23:13.240 than the last Mega thrust in seventeen hundred. I just 4:23:13.360 --> 4:23:16.000 kept thinking of that woman and the sort of quiet shock, 4:23:16.080 --> 4:23:19.800 and her voice, her, oh is that? And then nothing, 4:23:21.000 --> 4:23:22.920 And I was standing out in the rain, still warm, 4:23:23.120 --> 4:23:24.840 when it occurred to me that I might have heard 4:23:24.880 --> 4:23:27.600 her last words. I kept thinking about the texture of 4:23:27.680 --> 4:23:30.520 the silence after the call dropped, and what had happened 4:23:30.560 --> 4:23:32.720 the moment after that, if that had been the worst 4:23:32.800 --> 4:23:35.840 of it, the shock of the whole world rumbling, or 4:23:35.880 --> 4:23:37.800 if it had been worse for her after that or 4:23:37.920 --> 4:23:42.960 right now or tomorrow. I only had ten minutes because 4:23:43.000 --> 4:23:45.720 call volume was increasing. My throat started to tickle in 4:23:45.760 --> 4:23:48.640 the world just suddenly out of nowhere, started to look glassy. 4:23:49.040 --> 4:23:51.080 The light thick from the ceiling squares, and my skin 4:23:51.160 --> 4:23:53.480 prickled when I ran my hands over my arms, which 4:23:53.480 --> 4:23:56.680 were covered with goose bumps. The floor was nearly empty 4:23:56.720 --> 4:23:59.600 except for Jority running around supervising and not taking calls, 4:23:59.640 --> 4:24:02.080 and the you was packed. My first call was around 4:24:02.080 --> 4:24:05.200 way north along the coast Prince Rupert, a woman calling 4:24:05.200 --> 4:24:07.800 about a password reset. I want Mark, She said he 4:24:07.880 --> 4:24:11.160 helped me before. Can I talk to Mark? While I 4:24:11.280 --> 4:24:14.000 was documenting, I thought, fuck it, I'm going to tell 4:24:14.120 --> 4:24:16.200 Missy what the old woman told me while we were 4:24:16.240 --> 4:24:19.080 waiting for the password reset email, about how when you're 4:24:19.120 --> 4:24:21.280 that far north you don't notice time passing, and you 4:24:21.360 --> 4:24:24.760 feel good in an unimaginable way in summer, luminous and hopeful, 4:24:25.200 --> 4:24:27.400 and how in winter all you want to do is 4:24:27.520 --> 4:24:29.760 die and drink yourself into a coma, so you know 4:24:29.840 --> 4:24:36.760 it balances out. After that, I reopened three zero. An 4:24:36.800 --> 4:24:40.040 elderly woman, I wrote on a phone, trying to print 4:24:40.120 --> 4:24:43.240 invoices for locally produced sea salt, looks over at the 4:24:43.320 --> 4:24:45.880 rack of glass jars in which she keeps her stock 4:24:46.040 --> 4:24:49.080 because she hears a rattle, then another. Then she says, oh, 4:24:49.600 --> 4:24:52.640 is that and nothing else, because at that moment, the 4:24:52.720 --> 4:24:57.280 force of rashimas lit the Cascadius abduction zone, on which 4:24:57.360 --> 4:25:00.960 Vancouver Island rests like a cork in a bottle. Centuries 4:25:01.000 --> 4:25:06.040 of continental tension released. I typed that, then I hit send. 4:25:06.120 --> 4:25:08.640 Then I added a secondary note on her file. At 4:25:08.720 --> 4:25:11.560 eight thirty two p s t A nine point eight 4:25:11.680 --> 4:25:16.200 hit the Cascadia subduction zone, and Misty was right there 4:25:16.240 --> 4:25:18.560 on chad Hive, not telling me it was inappropriate. She 4:25:18.640 --> 4:25:21.400 wrote rest their souls, and I was comforted by those 4:25:21.400 --> 4:25:26.040 temporary words, which surprised me. My grandparents were on minda 4:25:26.120 --> 4:25:31.440 now in the nineteen seventy six earthquake, you got anyone there? No, 4:25:33.160 --> 4:25:35.760 I heard the hum from Detroit. It was somehow a 4:25:35.880 --> 4:25:38.440 relief to know that across the world, Misty was in 4:25:38.480 --> 4:25:42.520 a similar room among people evaluating documentation for apps and 4:25:42.600 --> 4:25:46.200 I s p s and accounting software, people saying that 4:25:46.320 --> 4:25:49.160 must be frustrating. Let's see if I can help. Something 4:25:49.200 --> 4:25:53.360 occurred to me. Do you hear anything about tsunamis no 4:25:53.480 --> 4:25:55.680 word so far? Do you have your phones? You can 4:25:55.720 --> 4:25:59.320 get the alerts. They'll let us know we're so bad. 4:25:59.360 --> 4:26:00.960 I'm taking call so I won't be fixing your dog 4:26:01.040 --> 4:26:04.960 until tomorrow. I wondered if Kirsty would let us know, 4:26:05.120 --> 4:26:06.880 or if she would dither about it until all we 4:26:06.960 --> 4:26:08.800 could do was climbed to the top floor of the 4:26:08.840 --> 4:26:11.160 building and watch a way consume what was left of 4:26:11.200 --> 4:26:14.520 Detroit before it swamped us to five more calls and 4:26:14.560 --> 4:26:16.560 I refilled my water bottle, the one with the slogan 4:26:16.640 --> 4:26:19.640 on it, fueling small business with the tools to succeed 4:26:20.040 --> 4:26:23.320 that some now lost Western Morgan contract brought in. And 4:26:23.400 --> 4:26:25.240 I was looking at my skin reflected in the sink, 4:26:25.320 --> 4:26:27.400 which was the color of those pale, lumpy smokers you 4:26:27.480 --> 4:26:30.040 see outside the entrance, the color of a raw filet 4:26:30.080 --> 4:26:33.680 of fish. I felt adrenalized, like a moment before it'd 4:26:33.680 --> 4:26:36.960 been terrified, but I could not remember how or why. 4:26:37.680 --> 4:26:39.880 I wondered what it was doing to me inside. All 4:26:39.920 --> 4:26:43.360 those cells now remade into virus factories, turning to goog 4:26:43.440 --> 4:26:46.360 and mah and sloughing off while the virus proliferated through 4:26:46.440 --> 4:26:48.920 my system, and I left traces of it on everything 4:26:48.960 --> 4:26:51.760 I touched. The water ran over the top of the 4:26:51.800 --> 4:26:55.000 bottle clear. So far the ash hasn't worked its way 4:26:55.080 --> 4:26:57.920 in through the city's water system, or maybe it has, 4:26:58.120 --> 4:27:00.720 and it was invisible like the microlo sticks in the lake. 4:27:02.560 --> 4:27:06.160 So you're gonna judge it was, Jordy, We're gonna do 4:27:06.240 --> 4:27:08.200 it next week. I was thinking that set a time limit, 4:27:08.280 --> 4:27:10.480 like five minutes, you and me and Kirsty judge it. 4:27:10.520 --> 4:27:13.120 I'll grab a fifty for the Jimmy's card too, man, 4:27:13.760 --> 4:27:16.560 I said, Georgie just stared at me. You're getting sick. 4:27:16.840 --> 4:27:18.840 You know what you need to do. He went on 4:27:18.960 --> 4:27:21.320 about ekenesia and flu effects. And I thought about the 4:27:21.360 --> 4:27:24.240 tsunami that was or was not traveling across the Pacific, 4:27:24.760 --> 4:27:27.000 or just hammer your system with antioxidants to take a 4:27:27.040 --> 4:27:30.520 double dose of night quill. Without thinking, I pulled my 4:27:30.560 --> 4:27:33.440 phone out of my pocket. You know you can't have 4:27:33.600 --> 4:27:36.760 that anywhere on the floor. I was already googling Pacific 4:27:36.840 --> 4:27:39.200 tsunami alert and it was rolling rainbows and I stared 4:27:39.200 --> 4:27:41.160 at it so hard that it seemed to take over 4:27:41.200 --> 4:27:43.520 the whole world. And then I shivered. But Jority was 4:27:43.560 --> 4:27:46.120 still talking. Don't make me write you up. I don't 4:27:46.120 --> 4:27:49.600 want to deal with it, okay, I said. It's about 4:27:49.640 --> 4:27:51.880 privacy for our users. They need to know that they 4:27:51.920 --> 4:27:55.360 can trust our integrity, our word, and our system. The 4:27:55.440 --> 4:27:58.200 poster on the far side of the brake room said integrity, 4:27:58.320 --> 4:28:01.160 word and system. I saw that the alert had been 4:28:01.160 --> 4:28:03.840 issued for Japan. That's when he took my phone. You 4:28:03.920 --> 4:28:05.720 fucked the dog. I have to write you up. I 4:28:05.800 --> 4:28:08.600 don't want to write you up Japan in six hours, 4:28:08.760 --> 4:28:12.320 eight pm, I'd still be on then. While very far away, 4:28:12.560 --> 4:28:14.880 a wave crested on the sea coast, filling the river 4:28:14.960 --> 4:28:24.080 basins and the car parks. I know you don't have 4:28:24.160 --> 4:28:26.480 to surrender your phone, even if they can require you 4:28:26.560 --> 4:28:28.680 to leave it at home. I know they're not supposed 4:28:28.680 --> 4:28:30.800 to lock you in either, or let you smoke within 4:28:30.880 --> 4:28:33.280 three ms of the door, even when the ashes falling. 4:28:33.960 --> 4:28:36.000 They're not supposed to pay you in points. You can 4:28:36.040 --> 4:28:38.720 then exchange for grocery store gift cards, which you need 4:28:38.800 --> 4:28:41.920 because the new minimum wage wasn't even covering rent. But 4:28:42.000 --> 4:28:45.800 I needed a job. The next call I got was 4:28:45.880 --> 4:28:48.320 farther south, closer to the epicenter. The first thing I 4:28:48.400 --> 4:28:50.680 did was asked about the earthquake. Oh, we felt it, 4:28:50.760 --> 4:28:53.160 and there's a tsunami warning. But we're far enough inland 4:28:53.160 --> 4:28:55.840 it shouldn't be tsunami warning. So when I go try 4:28:55.880 --> 4:28:59.520 to log in tsunami, I keep getting the same error. 4:28:59.720 --> 4:29:02.040 It's a my accounts frozen. What does that mean? I 4:29:02.160 --> 4:29:04.280 need to do some invoices? And yeah, I just got 4:29:04.320 --> 4:29:06.160 the text like half an hour ago. Landfall is like 4:29:06.240 --> 4:29:09.800 an hour. The account was frozen due to miss payments. 4:29:09.840 --> 4:29:12.000 So I pointed that out and the guy insisted no, 4:29:12.280 --> 4:29:14.480 he set up an automated transfer, and he kept me 4:29:14.520 --> 4:29:16.320 on the line while he chatted with the bank's tech 4:29:16.360 --> 4:29:19.040 support on another line to sort out the direct deposit, 4:29:19.400 --> 4:29:21.840 and then I reactivated his account. All this time, the 4:29:21.920 --> 4:29:25.360 tsunami traveling towards the coast or the shallower bottom would 4:29:25.440 --> 4:29:27.840 raise the waves height by narrowing its length, because the 4:29:27.960 --> 4:29:30.200 last time I'd been outside, I'd looked at a gift 4:29:30.240 --> 4:29:33.720 on Wikipedia that demonstrated how tsunami's crest as they traveled 4:29:33.800 --> 4:29:37.480 through shallow waters. The last thing he said wasn't thanks, 4:29:37.680 --> 4:29:40.040 it was there. It is. The tide's going way out. 4:29:40.160 --> 4:29:42.920 I hope everyone's out of downtown. Then he was gone, 4:29:43.080 --> 4:29:45.400 and I can imagine it, the water running away from 4:29:45.440 --> 4:29:48.560 the shore like a huge exhalation and then collecting into 4:29:48.600 --> 4:29:52.440 a rising wave that would destroy them all the tsunami 4:29:52.560 --> 4:29:54.760 warning I wrote in chat hive, hoping Misty was there. 4:29:55.400 --> 4:29:58.480 Kirsty responded instantly that is not appropriate. Chat hive is 4:29:58.520 --> 4:30:01.680 for important work stuff. We haven't heard anything, but we 4:30:01.760 --> 4:30:04.320 were swamps, so who knows what's going on outside. Chat 4:30:04.400 --> 4:30:07.360 Hi channel will only be used for appropriate business related business. 4:30:08.040 --> 4:30:10.960 Maybe you should get out. Chat hi channel will only 4:30:11.000 --> 4:30:16.520 be used for appropriate business related business. I'd been there 4:30:16.600 --> 4:30:19.160 for sixteen hours, and I couldn't remember the last time 4:30:19.200 --> 4:30:21.600 I slept a full night at home when I hadn't 4:30:21.600 --> 4:30:24.120 been buzzed on cold pills in exhaustion and the sound 4:30:24.160 --> 4:30:27.840 of call of duty from the living room. That week, 4:30:27.880 --> 4:30:30.480 when I did sleep, I kept saying, this is Mark 4:30:30.520 --> 4:30:33.480 from Magnicore, or this is Mark from wherever I am 4:30:33.640 --> 4:30:36.240 right now, and heard explosions and the way voices carry 4:30:36.280 --> 4:30:38.520 over for the river from Detroit, the screams and the 4:30:38.600 --> 4:30:42.000 crowds and the gunshots. Or maybe I was never actually asleep. 4:30:42.160 --> 4:30:44.760 Maybe I was just off my head. I shouldn't have 4:30:44.800 --> 4:30:46.680 washed the pills down with beer. But there's that thing 4:30:46.760 --> 4:30:48.960 that happens when you stop in for a beer after work, 4:30:49.040 --> 4:30:51.240 and the inertia of the whole thing, the job, the 4:30:51.240 --> 4:30:53.080 shitty beer, and the fact that a person brings you 4:30:53.160 --> 4:30:55.560 food even if you can't afford it. It sticks you 4:30:55.680 --> 4:30:58.320 to your seat. It was bad last summer when we 4:30:58.360 --> 4:31:00.120 couldn't afford to run the a C. But the bar 4:31:00.200 --> 4:31:01.960 on the way home could, and it was full of 4:31:02.000 --> 4:31:05.360 familiar guys, broke and lonely and trying to avoid looking 4:31:05.400 --> 4:31:07.800 at what was left of the Detroit skyline, or the 4:31:07.840 --> 4:31:10.560 gray green clouds boiling to the north, and the hail 4:31:10.880 --> 4:31:14.680 and the lightning storms every afternoon like clockwork. The summers 4:31:14.680 --> 4:31:17.560 are definitely hotter, and the mosquitoes are definitely worse. And 4:31:17.640 --> 4:31:20.120 the last summer I noticed that the birds don't sing anymore. 4:31:20.440 --> 4:31:26.080 All their whistles and like video game lasers. I stepped 4:31:26.080 --> 4:31:28.960 outside for another cigarette and realized the door had been locked. 4:31:29.000 --> 4:31:30.640 And I don't have a fall because I don't rate 4:31:30.680 --> 4:31:33.920 a fob. Jordy was there too, setting up his stupid 4:31:34.000 --> 4:31:36.480 Western Morgan idol piles a bright pink and green and 4:31:36.520 --> 4:31:39.320 blue post it. Now it's all over his desk. I 4:31:39.400 --> 4:31:41.680 need to go out. The doors are locked for the night. 4:31:42.000 --> 4:31:44.880 I need to go out. We lost another girl from online. 4:31:44.880 --> 4:31:46.520 You'll have to take over social media if we lose 4:31:46.520 --> 4:31:50.040 anyone else. Take your break here. I just kind of 4:31:50.160 --> 4:31:52.200 stared at him, and my skin prickled, like all the 4:31:52.280 --> 4:31:54.240 suit of apedron I had taken had rushed to the 4:31:54.320 --> 4:31:57.480 surface and was blasting every single nerve ending in my body. 4:31:58.640 --> 4:32:02.800 I need to go outside. You can't, like you physically can't. 4:32:04.720 --> 4:32:06.560 I kind of stood there, and I'm ashamed to say 4:32:06.640 --> 4:32:09.240 I wanted to cry, like a little kid who isn't 4:32:09.240 --> 4:32:11.280 allowed to use the bathroom, who just wants to sit 4:32:11.360 --> 4:32:14.560 with his dad but keeps getting dragged away by unfamiliar relatives. 4:32:15.640 --> 4:32:17.560 The kind of crying you see on the bus at 4:32:17.640 --> 4:32:19.720 rush hour when some little kid coming back from the 4:32:19.760 --> 4:32:22.560 mall loses it and lies in the aisle wailing, cramming 4:32:22.680 --> 4:32:24.600 road salt in his mouth, and you just think you 4:32:24.760 --> 4:32:28.720 and me both. I didn't actually cry. I hate myself 4:32:28.800 --> 4:32:31.520 because I just said begging, can I please have my 4:32:31.600 --> 4:32:34.880 phone back? Please? Jordy looked at me like I was 4:32:34.880 --> 4:32:36.520 an idiot him in the middle of all the post 4:32:36.600 --> 4:32:39.360 it notes that read congratulations and You're a winner and 4:32:39.560 --> 4:32:44.320 Western Morgan idol. I didn't say anything. I left at first. 4:32:44.400 --> 4:32:46.920 I just sat in the lunch room, shivering and nauseated, 4:32:47.360 --> 4:32:49.560 staring at the plastic solo cup left over from the 4:32:49.600 --> 4:32:52.560 barbecues they used to give before the ash. There will 4:32:52.600 --> 4:32:54.960 be worse moments in my life, no doubt, more pain, 4:32:55.120 --> 4:32:58.440 more sadness, but I can't imagine anything so wide ranging 4:32:58.960 --> 4:33:02.920 in its desolation as that moment. The only thing I 4:33:03.000 --> 4:33:05.120 could focus on was telling miss Ty to get her 4:33:05.160 --> 4:33:08.320 phone back and watch the horizon and be ready to escape. 4:33:10.200 --> 4:33:12.840 A girl from online staggered through, sweaty and pale, and 4:33:12.919 --> 4:33:14.640 I knew that Georgy would be there in a minute 4:33:14.919 --> 4:33:18.400 to ask for another eight hours overnight answering stranger's questions 4:33:18.440 --> 4:33:21.160 so perfectly that they treat me like a shitty customer 4:33:21.280 --> 4:33:25.520 service AI built to serve. There aren't a lot of 4:33:25.600 --> 4:33:27.400 choices in life, are there. You can choose to have 4:33:27.520 --> 4:33:29.920 kids or not, to leave your hometown or not, or 4:33:29.960 --> 4:33:32.280 to stay in a terrible job you are, for some reason, 4:33:32.440 --> 4:33:35.400 very good at. But other than that, what is there? 4:33:35.520 --> 4:33:39.480 Just a lot of compliance and non compliance. This moment 4:33:39.560 --> 4:33:42.160 didn't feel like a choice. I said to the girl, 4:33:42.400 --> 4:33:44.160 we need to get out of here, and she nodded. 4:33:44.480 --> 4:33:46.280 Then we headed down to the lobby. The doors were 4:33:46.360 --> 4:33:48.360 locked and no one caring a key was in the building, 4:33:48.600 --> 4:33:50.879 and the girl just looked bad. But when I went 4:33:50.960 --> 4:33:52.880 to the fire escape, she still said, no, no, we're 4:33:52.880 --> 4:33:56.840 not supposed to. We need to get out. They'll fire us. 4:33:57.640 --> 4:33:59.600 And I could hear the fear in her voice, and 4:33:59.640 --> 4:34:02.160 I wont heard how badly she needed this job, that 4:34:02.280 --> 4:34:04.080 she was here in the middle of the night, so 4:34:04.280 --> 4:34:07.560 sick she could hardly stand. Tell them I did it, 4:34:07.640 --> 4:34:10.759 I said, and hit the bar, only it didn't move 4:34:10.880 --> 4:34:14.280 because the fire escape was locked too. The next thing 4:34:14.360 --> 4:34:16.480 I did was stupid, but I don't know what else 4:34:16.520 --> 4:34:18.280 I could have done. I walked back to the lobby 4:34:18.320 --> 4:34:20.080 and picked up a garbage can and began slamming it 4:34:20.160 --> 4:34:23.120 into the glass door behind me. She was coughing and 4:34:23.240 --> 4:34:26.000 coughing and said maybe stop, stop, but so faintly I 4:34:26.080 --> 4:34:28.640 could ignore it. Then we were out, and she was 4:34:28.680 --> 4:34:31.640 staggering towards the emergency room on wilette and I was 4:34:31.720 --> 4:34:34.560 alone in the rain water the same temperature as my blood. 4:34:35.240 --> 4:34:37.600 Then I went looking for a pay phone, because the 4:34:37.720 --> 4:34:39.480 only way to sort this out was to call in. 4:34:40.080 --> 4:34:43.160 But I couldn't remember which of Western Morgan's departments Misty 4:34:43.240 --> 4:34:45.440 was assigned to. So when I finally found the city's 4:34:45.560 --> 4:34:48.560 last pay phone in the bus depot, I called them all, 4:34:48.759 --> 4:34:51.240 all the sad voices of men and women here and 4:34:51.360 --> 4:34:55.520 on the other side of the world. Welcome to Kyphus 4:34:55.680 --> 4:35:00.360 Business Systems. Jane speaking, Can I help you? Welcome to 4:35:00.400 --> 4:35:04.000 Tesla Mobility. Can I help you? Welcome to ross Common 4:35:04.040 --> 4:35:08.720 Account Services. Welcome to Lighthouse Mobility. I'm looking for Misty. 4:35:08.840 --> 4:35:11.720 She helped me before. I'm sure I can help you. 4:35:11.800 --> 4:35:15.080 What's your user number, Misty, Misty knows, I said, my voice, 4:35:15.160 --> 4:35:18.200 queer less and elderly, put on Misty. I could hear 4:35:18.280 --> 4:35:21.400 the exhaustion in his silence than the compliance. One moment, 4:35:21.480 --> 4:35:26.080 I'll transfer you, Hey, Misty, I said, Misty, Misty, you 4:35:26.160 --> 4:35:29.280 need to get to high ground. What who is this? 4:35:30.240 --> 4:35:34.440 Just promise, Kay, there's no tsunami warning. It's on its way. 4:35:34.680 --> 4:35:38.040 It's passing Japan and Hawaii. It hit the Allusians California. 4:35:38.880 --> 4:35:41.080 I hope she didn't mistake me for what I felt 4:35:41.120 --> 4:35:44.400 like right then, a crazy old man mad with loneliness, 4:35:44.800 --> 4:35:46.800 longing to hear a voice in the void, even if 4:35:46.800 --> 4:35:48.880 it was only to harangue them for the weakness of 4:35:48.919 --> 4:35:53.039 their service and the terrible nature of their product. Mark, 4:35:54.560 --> 4:35:57.040 another six hours to landfall. I know you'll still be 4:35:57.160 --> 4:36:01.840 on shift, promise. I waited for her to disconnect, which 4:36:01.919 --> 4:36:04.760 was okay, because at least I told her then. I 4:36:04.840 --> 4:36:08.600 think maybe she said thank you, Mark, or maybe it 4:36:08.680 --> 4:36:10.640 was just the noise in my head. I held the 4:36:10.720 --> 4:36:14.000 line another moment that hung up. I felt okay because 4:36:14.040 --> 4:36:16.440 I got through, Because I wasn't in a cubicle anymore, 4:36:16.640 --> 4:36:19.120 because I could walk home and enjoy the silence before 4:36:19.160 --> 4:36:21.680 call of duty, marathons in the living room, enjoy the 4:36:21.759 --> 4:36:28.320 ashy rain falling across my slowly cooking skin. I walked home, Misty. 4:36:29.919 --> 4:36:34.720 I walked home, hoping. Misty said, thank you, Mark. It 4:36:34.800 --> 4:36:36.520 felt like I was slipping through a gap in the 4:36:36.600 --> 4:36:40.120 world between noises, a kind of silent passage, the way 4:36:40.240 --> 4:36:44.200 kids slip along the abandoned rail easements in town below grade, 4:36:44.720 --> 4:36:47.560 the corridors of grass and rats and squirrels and birds, 4:36:47.919 --> 4:36:50.039 between the noise of the phones and call of duty, 4:36:51.040 --> 4:36:54.960 between heartbeats, between crusting waves, the silence you hang onto 4:36:55.040 --> 4:36:57.520 for just a moment when someone hangs up, before you 4:36:57.600 --> 4:36:59.760 go on to the next call, because there is to 4:37:00.040 --> 4:37:03.880 primarily a respect from the tyranny of the queue, the 4:37:04.000 --> 4:37:06.760 silence after a bullet connects or a wave hits on 4:37:06.840 --> 4:37:09.759 the other side of the world. I just hope harder 4:37:09.960 --> 4:37:12.920 and harder and harder that Misty would insist they unlocked 4:37:12.960 --> 4:37:15.640 the doors and break the windows, and they would escape 4:37:15.800 --> 4:37:18.640 before the wave arrived to wash the rest of us away. 4:37:20.480 --> 4:37:22.480 I don't know how to add a clapping sound effect 4:37:22.480 --> 4:37:27.640 without it just sounding horrible in the audio airhorns you 4:37:27.680 --> 4:37:31.720 know what, danial um already straight seconds of air horns 4:37:32.800 --> 4:37:35.879 or or or not? Um. I think with the air 4:37:35.960 --> 4:37:39.480 horns are good. It was beautiful. Yeah, that was wonderful. 4:37:39.880 --> 4:37:44.760 It's really incredible, Thank you so much, and particularly relevant 4:37:44.880 --> 4:37:51.840 now Yeah yeah, unfortunately yeah, yeah, it's with what happened Yeah, yeah, 4:37:51.960 --> 4:37:55.840 that is extra extra the whole time, what happened in 4:37:55.960 --> 4:38:04.360 the past week. Yeah, yeah, that is a it sucks mhm. 4:38:06.480 --> 4:38:10.920 If people want to find more of your work, or 4:38:11.000 --> 4:38:16.600 if there's anything you'd like to plug, now is the time, okay. UM. 4:38:17.000 --> 4:38:20.880 I have a website. It's called where is here dot 4:38:20.960 --> 4:38:27.120 c a UM and I have jeez links to a 4:38:27.160 --> 4:38:29.280 bunch of my different short stories there. I have a 4:38:29.440 --> 4:38:32.000 novella coming out next year. A few years ago I 4:38:32.040 --> 4:38:36.280 put relished a novel UM. But if you're interested in 4:38:36.880 --> 4:38:39.759 the climate change stuff, there's probably one I'd recommend called 4:38:40.440 --> 4:38:43.879 UM an Important Failure that was in Clark's World. It's 4:38:43.880 --> 4:38:47.280 available to read online. It's been translated into Polish. It's 4:38:47.280 --> 4:38:50.240 in a couple of different collections. UM. And if I'm 4:38:50.240 --> 4:38:56.800 allowed to brag, which it won the the the Sturgeon 4:38:56.800 --> 4:39:01.919 Award last year, which is a science fiction award handed 4:39:01.960 --> 4:39:05.720 out by UM, an academic organization in the US. SO 4:39:06.560 --> 4:39:08.640 and it's about it's about climate change. It's all set 4:39:08.680 --> 4:39:13.240 on Vancouver Island. In Vancouver. I've heard you. I've heard 4:39:13.280 --> 4:39:18.640 you also have stories about ghosts. Yes, I have a 4:39:18.840 --> 4:39:23.160 genre I'm trying to establish that I call obstetrical horror 4:39:23.520 --> 4:39:27.559 that I started writing when I was pregnant. Yeah, giving 4:39:27.680 --> 4:39:31.280 birth is just such body horror. So ghosts, childbirth, all 4:39:31.360 --> 4:39:34.440 that stuff. Yeah, I read a lot about ghosts as well. 4:39:34.480 --> 4:39:35.720 You can find, like I say, a lot of that 4:39:35.759 --> 4:39:38.559 stuffs on my website and links to anything that's available 4:39:38.600 --> 4:39:40.640 for free online. So yeah, where is here? Dot c 4:39:40.800 --> 4:39:44.840 A and I'm on Twitter a um at Canadianist, but 4:39:45.480 --> 4:39:48.160 I don't really use it that much. So I am 4:39:48.240 --> 4:39:54.640 excited for the combination of climate change fiction with horror fiction. UM. 4:39:54.880 --> 4:39:57.919 And by excited, it's like half half actually excited, half 4:39:58.680 --> 4:40:01.680 dreading because a lot of it's gonna probably be horrible 4:40:01.960 --> 4:40:04.480 in terms of people being like, you know, what's scary 4:40:04.960 --> 4:40:10.440 climates change and you're like, okay, but yeah, but oh sorry, 4:40:10.480 --> 4:40:12.680 go on. I don't know, but I think there definitely 4:40:12.840 --> 4:40:16.400 is a good way to combine the the exsential elements 4:40:16.440 --> 4:40:18.680 of both of those things to something that actually is 4:40:18.800 --> 4:40:22.080 really impactful, that plays on human fears and emotions and 4:40:22.160 --> 4:40:24.800 how we can get over those fears and move towards 4:40:24.919 --> 4:40:29.320 something useful. Yeah. And it's also that horror going back 4:40:29.520 --> 4:40:31.800 for well, however long you want to, we've been telling 4:40:31.880 --> 4:40:34.240 stories has given us a series of structures to kind 4:40:34.240 --> 4:40:38.720 of process that. UM. And I think that's really valuable 4:40:38.800 --> 4:40:41.080 that their patterns we can use to work through. And 4:40:41.160 --> 4:40:43.800 I mean writing climate change fiction for me, I just 4:40:43.880 --> 4:40:48.239 finished another novella UM that's specifically about like near future 4:40:48.280 --> 4:40:52.360 stuff and about the wildfires a lot um. But you know, 4:40:52.560 --> 4:40:54.600 having a story to tell about it as a way 4:40:54.600 --> 4:40:57.360 of processing all the research I was doing, UM was 4:40:57.640 --> 4:41:02.039 really valuables. It's super useful. Yeah, and just um, I mean, 4:41:02.080 --> 4:41:03.640 you can call it therapeutic if you want, But I 4:41:03.680 --> 4:41:05.720 don't think it's that. I think it's organizing information in 4:41:05.800 --> 4:41:08.560 your head that is just simply too large for you 4:41:08.640 --> 4:41:12.320 to actually grasp. I mean, I can't actually grasp this stuff. 4:41:12.360 --> 4:41:15.199 But no, you can't. It's it's too bad. Yeah, exactly 4:41:15.320 --> 4:41:20.879 exactly trying to mean, Yeah, horror does that probably better 4:41:20.919 --> 4:41:24.200 than almost any other genre. Yeah. I mean, look what 4:41:24.320 --> 4:41:29.360 it horror does with adolescent anxieties or um, you know, 4:41:29.600 --> 4:41:31.400 all sorts of different the fear of dying, the fear 4:41:31.400 --> 4:41:34.360 of aging, if your illness, and stuff like that. So yeah, 4:41:34.400 --> 4:41:37.040 I think we have structures in place with horror fiction, 4:41:38.000 --> 4:41:41.240 um and with sort of science fiction horror that kind 4:41:41.280 --> 4:41:43.840 of are gonna let us start to process things that 4:41:43.880 --> 4:41:47.680 are otherwise just too intellectual or not intellectual. But to 4:41:47.880 --> 4:41:50.600 abstract it's too it's too. Yeah, abstractors, I think is 4:41:50.640 --> 4:41:53.280 the right term, because I mean, like, I guess my 4:41:53.440 --> 4:41:56.640 fear of that is that, like climate change fiction is 4:41:56.680 --> 4:42:00.440 just gonna resort to like the disaster story and it 4:42:00.520 --> 4:42:04.840 has very like glamorized weird versions of like apocalypses and 4:42:04.960 --> 4:42:11.040 disasters and like collapse and very like big ways that 4:42:11.120 --> 4:42:14.240 impact everything around you. When in actuality, the effects that 4:42:14.280 --> 4:42:17.560 they have are very localized and small and are still horrifying, 4:42:18.000 --> 4:42:21.239 but the way that they're framed is always frustrating. In films, 4:42:21.280 --> 4:42:22.760 and you look at like, you know, a typical like 4:42:22.919 --> 4:42:27.600 you know, like apocalypse themed movie, I think is I'm 4:42:27.640 --> 4:42:32.000 afraid that the bigger you know, if you turn turn 4:42:32.360 --> 4:42:34.760 talking about like big movies, how it's going to frame 4:42:34.840 --> 4:42:37.480 it that way instead of these more kind of personal 4:42:37.560 --> 4:42:40.120 stories of like the horror of being trapped inside a 4:42:40.200 --> 4:42:43.040 warehouse as a tornado comes and you're not allowed to leave, 4:42:43.280 --> 4:42:47.360 which is a way more horrifying than Oh, look, all 4:42:47.440 --> 4:42:50.840 of New York City is crumbling because of this pseudami, 4:42:51.120 --> 4:42:54.040 which is so big and like possible, I guess, but 4:42:54.160 --> 4:42:57.080 like that's so big you can't feel that. And what's 4:42:57.120 --> 4:42:59.520 more like going to happen is people getting trapped in 4:42:59.560 --> 4:43:02.680 buildings and not being allowed to leave. And that's that's like, 4:43:03.040 --> 4:43:06.680 that's actual horner. Yeah, and it's intimate too, write like 4:43:06.800 --> 4:43:09.880 it's not it's not in distant idea. It's intimate. It's 4:43:09.919 --> 4:43:13.399 the particular consequence of something for a community, for an individual, 4:43:13.480 --> 4:43:17.280 for relationships. And if I can go on on this um, 4:43:17.440 --> 4:43:20.760 there's an entire genre of apocalyptic fiction that kind of 4:43:20.800 --> 4:43:23.160 comes out of the early Cold War, and they're always 4:43:23.240 --> 4:43:27.880 these weirdly cozy apocalypse is where one white guy survives 4:43:28.560 --> 4:43:31.520 and in the new world he builds this kind of 4:43:31.720 --> 4:43:35.160 feudal fantasy. So I've actually this one fills the last 4:43:35.280 --> 4:43:38.919 Babylon where a character says, of these two spinster ladies 4:43:39.000 --> 4:43:42.399 that were miserable before the nuclear war, after the nuclear war, 4:43:42.440 --> 4:43:45.160 they're really happy because their lives have meaning now. And 4:43:45.440 --> 4:43:48.680 it's this, it's those are the apocalyptic stories that we've had. 4:43:48.759 --> 4:43:50.919 We need a new kind of story, a new kind 4:43:50.960 --> 4:43:53.640 of horror that I think, um that does exactly what 4:43:53.720 --> 4:43:57.000 you're talking about, that doesn't default to that weird heroism 4:43:57.200 --> 4:44:01.760 and one guy surviving kind of thing. There's a wonderful 4:44:01.840 --> 4:44:05.480 Corey doctor short story that that I think pivots off 4:44:05.560 --> 4:44:10.440 that idea nicely. Um in his his book, uh, what 4:44:10.640 --> 4:44:16.720 is Unauthorized Toast? I think Bread an authorized Bread is 4:44:16.759 --> 4:44:18.720 one of the stories in it. But the book is 4:44:18.960 --> 4:44:21.640 as a different it's a collection of his short stories. 4:44:21.680 --> 4:44:24.920 But there's um a post apocalyptic story that kind of 4:44:25.000 --> 4:44:28.120 follows a bunch of tech bros trying to do the 4:44:28.200 --> 4:44:32.280 traditional like survive the The apocalypse makes everything you know 4:44:32.759 --> 4:44:34.480 better for me, I get to be a cool warlord 4:44:34.560 --> 4:44:39.760 thing and it's it's good. It doesn't end well for them. Um. Yeah, 4:44:39.880 --> 4:44:43.480 I I think the I think the thing that is 4:44:43.520 --> 4:44:47.480 important to do is like focus on the horror of 4:44:48.200 --> 4:44:50.680 the little things, like the little things on like a 4:44:50.720 --> 4:44:52.960 global scale, Like, like the thing that is so frightening 4:44:52.960 --> 4:44:57.040 about climate change is that all of these the terrible 4:44:57.080 --> 4:44:59.640 things it's bringing are going to hit the same way 4:44:59.720 --> 4:45:02.440 mash shootings do, where it is a calamity for a 4:45:02.520 --> 4:45:07.760 community and people fifty miles away try to pretend it 4:45:07.840 --> 4:45:12.040 didn't happen and get to doing like their their daily stuff. 4:45:12.080 --> 4:45:15.480 Like that's what's that's what's so scary about it. It's 4:45:15.520 --> 4:45:17.919 not like you said, it's not the buildings in New 4:45:18.000 --> 4:45:20.759 York collapsing from a tidal wave. It's the birds stop 4:45:20.800 --> 4:45:22.919 singing and you still have to go to work. I'm 4:45:23.360 --> 4:45:25.840 I'm I'm writing a script right now for probably the 4:45:25.960 --> 4:45:29.720 show about how climate change is hard to think about 4:45:29.720 --> 4:45:32.440 because it's because how how big it is. And one 4:45:32.520 --> 4:45:35.160 of like the models that I'm trying to draw a 4:45:35.200 --> 4:45:38.200 comparison from this, Like it's almost like climate changes is 4:45:38.320 --> 4:45:40.720 like a type is like a type of Cathulhu in 4:45:40.880 --> 4:45:44.640 terms of the way it affects you, but you'll probably 4:45:44.759 --> 4:45:47.440 get by it's it can affect your neighbors, and you 4:45:47.480 --> 4:45:49.960 can watch it and you can watch it have other people, 4:45:50.280 --> 4:45:53.040 but like it doesn't mean that your life is going 4:45:53.080 --> 4:45:55.240 to end this way because it's so it's so big 4:45:55.320 --> 4:45:58.000 and uncaring. It can attack so many places at once, 4:45:58.680 --> 4:46:02.400 but you don't know how like how big this effects 4:46:02.440 --> 4:46:06.200 are and how and what what what what the scale 4:46:06.240 --> 4:46:08.800 of them will be on your local area. So it's 4:46:08.840 --> 4:46:11.239 like this, it's this thing that is way more existential 4:46:11.280 --> 4:46:14.160 than anything else because it it does not, it does 4:46:14.200 --> 4:46:17.000 not care, it has it has no morality. It's it's 4:46:17.040 --> 4:46:19.919 not it's not out to get you specifically. It's this weird, 4:46:20.960 --> 4:46:23.440 this weird thing that's just getting imposed upon us now. 4:46:24.080 --> 4:46:27.120 And that type of horror in fiction, I think is 4:46:27.360 --> 4:46:29.520 something that at least I want to explore in my 4:46:29.600 --> 4:46:31.680 next few years of writing. And I'm excited to read 4:46:31.720 --> 4:46:35.120 other people's work who kind of covered that similar side 4:46:35.160 --> 4:46:39.320 of horror and combining with like climate change and the 4:46:39.800 --> 4:46:43.120 small ways it's going to start affecting us in places 4:46:43.480 --> 4:46:49.199 around the world. I think, Um, that what you said 4:46:49.440 --> 4:46:51.960 and isn't isn't there someone who talks about the Catholic scene, 4:46:53.120 --> 4:46:58.280 I don't know. Yeah, that's Donna Harroway. Donna Harroway, that's it. Yeah. Um, 4:46:59.000 --> 4:47:02.480 But but also just how weak some of our previous narratives, 4:47:02.520 --> 4:47:06.960 like you can't you can't bring in you new Judeo 4:47:07.080 --> 4:47:10.080 Christian apocalypse is to this kind of thing, because we can't. 4:47:10.160 --> 4:47:12.040 There's not you can't. We can't have that kind of 4:47:12.120 --> 4:47:15.600 moralizing in it um that we need. And that's honestly, 4:47:15.640 --> 4:47:19.320 Cathulo is really handy for that cosmic horror because it 4:47:19.400 --> 4:47:21.320 forces you to, as you say, face something on an 4:47:21.360 --> 4:47:24.640 existential level. Um that how you feel and who you 4:47:24.720 --> 4:47:28.399 are and your individual experience does not matter. So it's 4:47:28.440 --> 4:47:30.759 like a lot of people, like you know us, we're 4:47:30.800 --> 4:47:34.080 watching what's happening in Kansas right now, and like, I'm 4:47:34.120 --> 4:47:36.960 not in Kansas. I don't know anyone in Kansas. I'm 4:47:37.040 --> 4:47:40.240 looking at this calamity and it's so distant from me, 4:47:40.759 --> 4:47:43.720 but yet it's also very close. And that's a weird 4:47:44.120 --> 4:47:48.160 feeling to deal with. UM. And I can see, oh yeah, 4:47:48.280 --> 4:47:52.520 corporations are contributing to this specifically like climate change as 4:47:52.600 --> 4:47:55.400 in general, but like like Amazon trapping people inside inside 4:47:55.440 --> 4:47:58.600 inside these warehouses. It's like, I can there's ways to 4:47:58.720 --> 4:48:02.480 fight extensions of this, but you can't fight it. You 4:48:02.560 --> 4:48:06.320 can only fight its extensions. And that's and yeah, it's 4:48:06.360 --> 4:48:08.760 it's it's a super it's a super interesting thing that 4:48:08.880 --> 4:48:12.360 I'm gonna I think, Yeah, we we are going to 4:48:12.440 --> 4:48:14.559 see you know this, this idea get dealt with more 4:48:14.600 --> 4:48:17.640 and more as these things start happening more and more. 4:48:18.320 --> 4:48:22.280 Um and yeah, I mean climate change, cosmic corps maybe 4:48:23.080 --> 4:48:28.240 maybe the way to go. Yeah, yeah, I think that's 4:48:28.440 --> 4:48:31.320 I think that's a good line to end on, or 4:48:31.320 --> 4:48:33.680 at least a good thought to end on. Well, thank 4:48:33.720 --> 4:48:36.759 you so much, Rebecca for coming on and sharing your story. 4:48:37.360 --> 4:48:39.840 Would you mind plugging your website one last time since 4:48:39.880 --> 4:48:44.160 we extra like fifteen minutes. Oh no, no, no, no, 4:48:44.560 --> 4:48:50.720 that's that's the reason people may not have noted it 4:48:50.840 --> 4:48:54.280 last time before the conversation. We should give him another chance. Okay, 4:48:54.440 --> 4:48:57.360 so the website is where is here dot c A 4:48:58.320 --> 4:49:01.480 so w H E er I s H e r 4:49:01.560 --> 4:49:05.240 E dot c A excellent. All right, Well, thank you 4:49:05.480 --> 4:49:11.520 very much, Rebecca. Um, until next time, everybody lose your 4:49:11.560 --> 4:49:16.320 mind with the cosmic horror, something something, anything, any kind 4:49:16.360 --> 4:49:20.000 of cosmic harror that cons to to your your mind 4:49:20.160 --> 4:49:23.640 to scramble and you to begin worshiping in the dark 4:49:23.680 --> 4:49:26.360 corners of the world. Any anything that does that is good. 4:49:26.560 --> 4:49:29.320 So well, thank you so much for having me. It's 4:49:29.320 --> 4:49:46.080 an absolute pleasure, very very happy to have you. When P. T. 4:49:46.200 --> 4:49:49.160 Barnum's Great American Museum burned to the ground in eighteen 4:49:49.240 --> 4:49:52.480 sixty five, what rose from its ashes would change the world. 4:49:53.280 --> 4:49:56.800 Welcome to Grim and Mild Presents, an ongoing journey into 4:49:56.840 --> 4:50:01.320 the strange, the unusual, and the fascinating. Where our inaugural season, 4:50:01.360 --> 4:50:03.759 we'll be giving you a backstage tour of the always 4:50:03.880 --> 4:50:08.600 complex and often misunderstood cultural artifact that is the American 4:50:08.720 --> 4:50:11.440 Side Show. So come along as we visit the shadowy 4:50:11.520 --> 4:50:14.160 corners of the stage and learn about the people who 4:50:14.240 --> 4:50:16.360 were at the center of it all in a place 4:50:16.400 --> 4:50:20.200 where spectacle was king. We will soon discover there's always 4:50:20.280 --> 4:50:23.240 more to the story than meets the eye, So step 4:50:23.400 --> 4:50:26.480 right up and get in line. Listen to Grim and 4:50:26.520 --> 4:50:29.880 Mile Presents now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 4:50:30.000 --> 4:50:33.560 or wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more over at 4:50:33.600 --> 4:50:43.919 Grimm and Mild dot com Slash presents It could happen 4:50:44.000 --> 4:50:50.160 here to Welcome the Evans Robert podcast. End of the 4:50:50.240 --> 4:50:53.960 World at the beginning of news. Yeah, I think we 4:50:54.040 --> 4:50:59.680 did it right. Evans Evans, Evans Robert, who's here with us? Uh? 4:50:59.800 --> 4:51:03.480 That would be kill Joy, Margaret and Victorman Sophie. I 4:51:03.560 --> 4:51:07.400 like this MS Keeping Victim and Comma Sophie kill Joy, 4:51:07.440 --> 4:51:13.360 Comma Margaret, Um Margaret Commas. I could also Attorney's general 4:51:13.480 --> 4:51:20.680 you kill Joy's Margaret. One of my hobbies is anytime 4:51:20.720 --> 4:51:25.320 I pluralize something, attorneys generally it Um, Margaret, how are you? 4:51:25.400 --> 4:51:30.960 How are you doing on this beautiful December day. I'm good. 4:51:31.000 --> 4:51:33.320 I just got my booster shot and the negative effects 4:51:33.360 --> 4:51:36.520 haven't kicked in yet. That's good. Um. How does it 4:51:36.680 --> 4:51:39.440 feel to have, like as your internet sped up now 4:51:39.520 --> 4:51:41.800 that I have a boost? Yeah, I'm making the same 4:51:41.919 --> 4:51:46.920 fighting that everybody makes, because it's easier than thinking about 4:51:46.960 --> 4:51:49.400 the fact that, oh, Macron looks like it's going to 4:51:49.480 --> 4:51:52.520 be a real, real nightmare and the world's never going 4:51:52.560 --> 4:51:55.800 to go back to you know, it's not going back 4:51:55.840 --> 4:51:58.320 to normal. I miss It's it's being able to walk 4:51:58.400 --> 4:52:00.880 into a bar and not worry that I was going 4:52:01.000 --> 4:52:06.360 to catch a new variant of a plague. Yeah that's 4:52:06.400 --> 4:52:12.160 a yeah. Yeah, how are you doing with the plague? 4:52:13.800 --> 4:52:18.800 I live completely alone and isolated, so which I you know, 4:52:19.080 --> 4:52:20.600 I'm not sure this is how I would have built 4:52:20.600 --> 4:52:24.040 my life if I hadn't done it during a plague. Yeah, 4:52:24.440 --> 4:52:27.440 I mean, well, I dream about interacting with humans. Yeah, 4:52:27.800 --> 4:52:32.000 just like hugging a person that that you don't know 4:52:32.240 --> 4:52:36.000 all that well and it not being like involving both 4:52:36.040 --> 4:52:40.079 of you risking your life. It's like a blood pact. Yes, 4:52:40.400 --> 4:52:45.360 we're going, Doug, and if we wind up in how 4:52:45.720 --> 4:52:51.800 we'll scream at Satan together. Come U, you have written 4:52:51.840 --> 4:52:54.160 another story. I mean you wrote this a while ago, 4:52:54.240 --> 4:52:55.640 as you did with the last one. But we're doing 4:52:55.759 --> 4:52:57.480 We decided we one of the things we wanted to 4:52:57.480 --> 4:52:59.400 do to close this year out was a little bit 4:52:59.480 --> 4:53:05.080 more fiction, because fiction, I think plays an underappreciated role 4:53:05.320 --> 4:53:13.760 in revolutionary practice in kind of every aspect of being 4:53:13.880 --> 4:53:17.079 someone who envisions the different world. Um. So we we've 4:53:17.080 --> 4:53:18.960 always I mean, it could happen here. From the beginning, 4:53:19.000 --> 4:53:23.160 there was always a strong kind of um uh focus 4:53:23.360 --> 4:53:27.440 on fiction. Um. And I'm really happy to be presenting 4:53:27.480 --> 4:53:31.680 another one of your stories today. Thanks. You want to 4:53:32.880 --> 4:53:36.200 introduced this piece, sure. This piece is called The Free 4:53:36.240 --> 4:53:39.320 Yorks of Cascadia. It was first published in Fantasy and 4:53:39.360 --> 4:53:42.080 Science Fiction, which is the name of a magazine. And 4:53:42.160 --> 4:53:44.480 this one was also really important to me. Because Fantasy 4:53:44.520 --> 4:53:46.160 and Science Fiction F and s F was one of 4:53:46.240 --> 4:53:48.880 the magazines that my my dad had a subscription to. Yeah, 4:53:48.919 --> 4:53:51.800 they go this a while. Yeah, this was a very 4:53:51.960 --> 4:53:55.880 um um and it was a very important piece for 4:53:55.960 --> 4:54:01.240 me that it got published there. Yeah, that's awesome. Um well, 4:54:01.560 --> 4:54:05.840 let's uh, let's let's let's take a take a hop 4:54:05.919 --> 4:54:11.640 in a publicly funded bus and roll down to Storytown. 4:54:12.440 --> 4:54:16.840 Speaking of taking one's life in one's hands. The story 4:54:16.880 --> 4:54:20.400 is called The Free Orcs of Cascadia. You all know 4:54:20.480 --> 4:54:23.040 the first part of the story. The song ended in blood. 4:54:23.560 --> 4:54:26.240 It was two years ago in the summer. Rick Green, 4:54:26.400 --> 4:54:29.720 the singer of Goblin Forest, crooned in his osbornesque voice 4:54:29.759 --> 4:54:33.440 to fifteen thousand Goblin metal fans. A short man wearing 4:54:33.480 --> 4:54:36.359 green body paint and brown leather, stepped out from backstage, 4:54:36.759 --> 4:54:39.360 drew a sword and cut the singer down from behind. 4:54:40.000 --> 4:54:43.000 The last lyrics Green ever sang were take me Back, 4:54:43.240 --> 4:54:45.719 take me Back, take me back to the Misty Mountains. 4:54:46.960 --> 4:54:49.000 The man with the sword, of course, was Golfin Bull, 4:54:49.400 --> 4:54:52.480 the rhythm guitarist for Crumpatool. The opening act. He and 4:54:52.560 --> 4:54:55.360 his bandmates escaped in the ensuing chaos and remain at Large. 4:54:55.440 --> 4:54:58.960 To this day, neither band has released a song or 4:54:59.040 --> 4:55:02.080 played a show since the rest of Goblin Forests decided 4:55:02.080 --> 4:55:05.040 to call it quits. Without Green and crimp Atool, no 4:55:05.160 --> 4:55:08.640 one knew what happened to Crimpatool. Fans deserted the genre 4:55:08.680 --> 4:55:11.440 and droves, and overnight Goblin Medal went from stadium rock 4:55:11.520 --> 4:55:14.239 fad to a niche interest of the obscure Canadian orc 4:55:14.360 --> 4:55:17.880 cults were originated. It was no longer hip to be Green. 4:55:18.919 --> 4:55:20.520 If Golf and Bull had been trying to take the 4:55:20.600 --> 4:55:25.680 Goblin Medal throne, as it were, he failed spectacularly. Rumors 4:55:25.720 --> 4:55:28.840 have flown about motives and locations, but there have been 4:55:28.880 --> 4:55:31.879 no arrests and no public statement from the band. All 4:55:31.960 --> 4:55:36.640 we've had to work with were rumors until now. Earlier 4:55:36.720 --> 4:55:40.360 this month, Orc Folk act Ulsith listed Golf and Bull 4:55:40.400 --> 4:55:42.520 as the harpist in their liner notes of the single 4:55:42.919 --> 4:55:46.200 The Gray Fog of a Ruined Forest lst was as 4:55:46.240 --> 4:55:49.640 obscure as Crimpatool was infamous. The band had never done 4:55:49.680 --> 4:55:52.920 an interview, not even a photo shoot. Like everyone else 4:55:53.040 --> 4:55:57.359 these days in countercultural music, their videos featured only masked performers. 4:55:59.040 --> 4:56:01.840 I've been casually used with post civilization culture ever since 4:56:01.880 --> 4:56:04.240 the Communicate from the Junkyard Rats of the Rust Belt, 4:56:05.040 --> 4:56:07.440 and I've been covering music of pretty much every secessionist 4:56:07.520 --> 4:56:10.000 movement and subculture I could sink my teeth into. Since 4:56:10.919 --> 4:56:13.120 after I saw those liner notes, I put out feelers 4:56:13.160 --> 4:56:15.200 to friends and friends of friends, and I waited, and 4:56:15.360 --> 4:56:17.280 last week I was invited to go to an orc 4:56:17.440 --> 4:56:21.680 village hidden away in the burned forests of Cascadia. I 4:56:21.800 --> 4:56:23.760 was invited to be the first person to tell Golf 4:56:23.800 --> 4:56:28.160 and Bull's story hell Fire Harriet Exclusive. Usually I post 4:56:28.240 --> 4:56:30.680 full interviews for everyone, but reserve my travel diary for 4:56:30.720 --> 4:56:33.280 the patrons of my blog. This time, though, I'm foregoing 4:56:33.360 --> 4:56:35.880 that this story is too important, so I've interspersed to 4:56:35.960 --> 4:56:39.080 the two below. All I knew before I went with 4:56:39.280 --> 4:56:42.040 what everyone else knew. Three years ago, a bunch of 4:56:42.080 --> 4:56:44.800 metal heads and hippies and burners and nerds all decided 4:56:44.840 --> 4:56:47.360 to dress up like orcs and goblins, and some of 4:56:47.440 --> 4:56:49.920 them took it too far and decided to distance themselves 4:56:50.000 --> 4:56:53.840 from the rest of society. They got really famous one summer. 4:56:54.040 --> 4:56:56.680 Then that fame died in a single bloody act, and 4:56:56.880 --> 4:56:58.960 who knows what kind of weird ship they're up to. Now, 4:57:00.200 --> 4:57:02.400 before you get worried, no, I will never offer a 4:57:02.440 --> 4:57:05.520 platform to a fascist fascist. Fascism, as it turns out, 4:57:05.680 --> 4:57:08.120 is the furthest thing from golf and Ball's mind. What 4:57:08.280 --> 4:57:12.160 he's into is a lot weirder than that. Still, it's 4:57:12.200 --> 4:57:14.320 sort of lucky that I survived to write this story. 4:57:16.600 --> 4:57:20.040 So you killed a guy, Yeah, I killed a guy. 4:57:21.360 --> 4:57:23.400 We stared in silence at one another for a while. 4:57:23.759 --> 4:57:26.000 He wore rawhide and fur, and not much of either. 4:57:26.440 --> 4:57:28.280 He wasn't painted up, but his skin was sort of 4:57:28.400 --> 4:57:31.680 natural olive. His lower teeth were filed down to fangs. 4:57:31.759 --> 4:57:35.199 Like any serious works, there was still something unassuming about 4:57:35.280 --> 4:57:39.400 him that I have a hard time describing. You're waiting 4:57:39.440 --> 4:57:41.800 for me to tell you about it, aren't you. The 4:57:41.880 --> 4:57:45.200 interview was not off to a good start. Are you 4:57:45.280 --> 4:57:48.520 worried about how your words will sound in court? I 4:57:48.680 --> 4:57:51.200 killed Rick Green on stage with a sword in front 4:57:51.240 --> 4:57:54.040 of thousands of witnesses. Talking to the media isn't going 4:57:54.080 --> 4:57:56.200 to make anything worse for me at this point, and 4:57:56.280 --> 4:57:58.360 I don't respect the authority of the U. S. Government 4:57:58.400 --> 4:58:00.720 to hold me accountable for my actions. I will not 4:58:00.919 --> 4:58:04.480 go to court, So why do you do it. The 4:58:04.600 --> 4:58:08.399 old world is dying. My world, the Free Orcs of Cascadia. 4:58:08.600 --> 4:58:10.680 We're not going to replace the old world, but we 4:58:10.759 --> 4:58:13.400 will be part of its replacement. In order to do that, 4:58:13.600 --> 4:58:16.440 we have to take ourselves seriously. An element of that 4:58:16.560 --> 4:58:19.160 struggle is the struggle to create meaning, to create a 4:58:19.200 --> 4:58:22.640 new sacred. I killed Rick Green because he was defiling 4:58:22.800 --> 4:58:27.880 something mint to be sacred. How so we share an aesthetic, 4:58:28.120 --> 4:58:30.600 But he didn't understand what it meant to be an orc. 4:58:31.960 --> 4:58:34.920 You killed him because he was a poser. I guess 4:58:34.960 --> 4:58:38.680 you could put it like that. So the lesson here is, 4:58:39.200 --> 4:58:43.759 don't be a poser. Don't be a poser. You heard 4:58:43.800 --> 4:58:46.240 it here first. Kids, don't be opposer, or golf and 4:58:46.320 --> 4:58:50.360 ball will literally murder you. They picked me up in 4:58:50.400 --> 4:58:53.440 the parking lot of grocery outlet in northeast Portland. That's 4:58:53.480 --> 4:58:56.040 a mundane detail, I suppose, but perhaps the single most 4:58:56.080 --> 4:58:58.720 remarkable thing about my trip was the ever present contrast 4:58:58.800 --> 4:59:02.360 between mandanity and bizarre. I bought a case of coconut 4:59:02.400 --> 4:59:06.000 water while we waited. Works might like coconut water. Who 4:59:06.040 --> 4:59:09.000 doesn't like coconut water? They showed up in a mid 4:59:09.080 --> 4:59:11.600 teens Honda Civic sedan, and I've been hoping for something 4:59:11.680 --> 4:59:14.320 out of mad Max. The two women who got out, 4:59:14.480 --> 4:59:17.440 one cis one trans, both white, were dressed in clean 4:59:17.560 --> 4:59:20.120 gray tank tops and leggings, like half the women who 4:59:20.160 --> 4:59:22.760 live in Portland. To be honest, I only noticed them 4:59:22.800 --> 4:59:24.800 in the parking lot at all because the trans woman 4:59:24.919 --> 4:59:28.320 was cute. Hell Fire this, this woman asked. She was 4:59:28.360 --> 4:59:30.919 tall and severe, with the fierce but almost trustworthy look 4:59:30.960 --> 4:59:33.480 of a loan shark or, as it turned out, an 4:59:33.600 --> 4:59:37.840 Orchis enforcer. That's me, I said, Fenrik. This this woman 4:59:37.919 --> 4:59:40.280 offered her name, but no handshake, fist bump or hug. 4:59:40.960 --> 4:59:44.680 I nodded. Norinda, the trans woman said. Like a lot 4:59:44.720 --> 4:59:47.000 of trans women these days, she didn't bother to feminize 4:59:47.040 --> 4:59:50.000 her voice. Her name sounded familiar, but I couldn't place it. 4:59:50.919 --> 4:59:53.120 How is this going to work? I asked. We're going 4:59:53.200 --> 4:59:54.960 to drive around back where no one can see us. 4:59:55.000 --> 4:59:57.480 Fenric said, We're going to take your phone and laptop 4:59:57.560 --> 4:59:59.399 in any electronics and put them in a fair day 4:59:59.440 --> 5:00:01.560 in the car. Then we're going to put you in 5:00:01.640 --> 5:00:04.239 the trunk and drive out to the forest. Will provide 5:00:04.280 --> 5:00:06.640 you with a recorder and notebook when we arrive. You'll 5:00:06.640 --> 5:00:09.600 get your stuff back when we leave. I nodded, I'd 5:00:09.600 --> 5:00:13.360 pretty much expected this. Dindi is the bathroom. Nor In asked, 5:00:13.560 --> 5:00:16.560 have any medical conditions we should know about? No, and no, 5:00:16.800 --> 5:00:22.480 I said, either of you want a coconut water? Gobland 5:00:22.560 --> 5:00:25.080 forests sang in English. But Crimptol's lyrics were all in 5:00:25.160 --> 5:00:30.080 Tolkien's Black Speech dark Speech. Our lyrics were in dark Speech. 5:00:30.960 --> 5:00:34.880 Tolkien referred to the language as black speech. Tolkien meant well, 5:00:34.960 --> 5:00:38.200 but he was about the most influential unconsciously racist author 5:00:38.240 --> 5:00:41.440 of the twentieth century. All his villains were either Green 5:00:41.600 --> 5:00:43.920 or Middle Eastern. When you engage with the work of 5:00:44.000 --> 5:00:47.520 historical authors, especially when you make derivative works a century later, 5:00:47.919 --> 5:00:51.120 you have to adapt to one's own social context. Calling 5:00:51.200 --> 5:00:54.960 the language black speech today is at best wildly misleading. 5:00:55.320 --> 5:00:58.400 Its name is a translation. Anyway, It's possible that dark 5:00:58.480 --> 5:01:02.440 speech is just as accurate it. Besides, Token didn't write 5:01:02.440 --> 5:01:05.440 the language. He only wrote like sixteen words or something. 5:01:06.000 --> 5:01:08.920 We wrote the rest. Most of us prefer to translate 5:01:09.000 --> 5:01:12.840 the name of it as dark speech. Since where murderers 5:01:12.919 --> 5:01:16.240 pc my status as a person who has ended the 5:01:16.320 --> 5:01:19.600 life of another person carries no implications about my personal 5:01:19.680 --> 5:01:22.560 ethics other than that I clearly believe there are circumstances 5:01:22.680 --> 5:01:27.640 under which it's okay to kill someone. Imagine being at 5:01:27.680 --> 5:01:30.600 the Renaissance Fair when the apocalypse hits and you're stuck 5:01:30.680 --> 5:01:33.640 trying to recreate society, surrounded by swords and minstrels and 5:01:33.800 --> 5:01:36.160 these and thous. You know how that sounds like either 5:01:36.200 --> 5:01:38.240 heaven or hell, depending on who you are and also 5:01:38.280 --> 5:01:41.759 who you're stuck there with. That was my first impression 5:01:41.800 --> 5:01:44.600 of the village of Graymorrow. The fires out west have 5:01:44.680 --> 5:01:47.640 burned forest after forest and small town after small town, 5:01:47.720 --> 5:01:49.600 and no one tries to deny that pretty much every 5:01:49.640 --> 5:01:52.360 bioregion on the planet is going through transformation right now. 5:01:53.240 --> 5:01:55.680 It's in the worst spots, these dat ecologies that the 5:01:55.720 --> 5:01:59.560 post civilization movement has found its roots, like wildflowers growing 5:01:59.640 --> 5:02:03.120 up between paving stones or rat's hiding in the walls, 5:02:03.200 --> 5:02:07.120 I guess, depending on who you ask. Gray Morrow sits 5:02:07.160 --> 5:02:09.720 in the scorched graveyard of a Douglas fir forest, halfway 5:02:09.759 --> 5:02:12.360 up a mountain, occupying the remains of an evacuated town. 5:02:13.160 --> 5:02:16.120 Slab foundations are all that remain of the original structures. 5:02:16.640 --> 5:02:19.000 A seasonal creek runs through what was recently a river 5:02:19.080 --> 5:02:21.520 bed at the edge of the village, and long abandoned 5:02:21.560 --> 5:02:24.880 train tracks skirt the ridge above town. Even armed with 5:02:24.919 --> 5:02:27.240 all of that information, you'd still have at least seventy 5:02:27.360 --> 5:02:31.440 or eighty possible spots to search. Satellite imagery would help, 5:02:31.520 --> 5:02:34.120 of course. I can't imagine that the Big Six texts 5:02:34.160 --> 5:02:36.320 or the U. S Government don't know where Gray Morrow is. 5:02:37.000 --> 5:02:39.320 The residents of Gray Morrow in general, and Golf and 5:02:39.360 --> 5:02:41.960 Bole in particular, had an awful lot to lose by 5:02:42.040 --> 5:02:45.520 letting me write this report. Nourenda let me out of 5:02:45.520 --> 5:02:47.719 the trunk, and she smiled when she saw me. Her 5:02:47.759 --> 5:02:50.760 bottom teeth were filed. That should have been unnerving, but 5:02:50.840 --> 5:02:53.199 I've always been a sucker for face tattoos or anything 5:02:53.280 --> 5:02:56.320 that really shows someone is going for broke. Fenric just 5:02:56.440 --> 5:02:59.719 stared at me severe. Being severe was pretty much her thing, 5:02:59.800 --> 5:03:02.000 as far as I could tell. She took a sip 5:03:02.080 --> 5:03:05.840 from her coconut water. Three other cars filled a makeshift 5:03:05.919 --> 5:03:08.440 parking lot. The village itself was surrounded by a wall 5:03:08.480 --> 5:03:10.960 built from black and logs, set upright and buried in 5:03:11.040 --> 5:03:14.640 the ruins of the road. My escorts had changed clothes 5:03:14.680 --> 5:03:17.480 and route Fenrick looked like a bandit out of Skyrim, 5:03:17.560 --> 5:03:20.000 complete with iron pauldron on one shoulder and a hand 5:03:20.040 --> 5:03:23.080 axe strapped to her belt. I won't lie, it was 5:03:23.120 --> 5:03:25.719 a good look. I'm no fashion reporter, but I figure 5:03:25.720 --> 5:03:27.440 half the magazines in New York would love to get 5:03:27.480 --> 5:03:29.440 someone out here and take pictures of Orcs like her. 5:03:30.520 --> 5:03:34.079 Nornda wore a simple, modest dress of undyed wool. Imagine 5:03:34.120 --> 5:03:37.400 a Viking kindergarten teacher who also wears a rather large 5:03:37.480 --> 5:03:40.000 dagger horizontally on her belt at the small of her back. 5:03:40.600 --> 5:03:43.720 My crushing on her intensified. She handed me a spiral 5:03:43.800 --> 5:03:46.480 notebook in an old fashioned digital recorder, and we walked 5:03:46.520 --> 5:03:51.200 into the village. A lot of people say that you 5:03:51.320 --> 5:03:54.320 killed Rick Green because you're jealous of Goblin Forest's success. 5:03:54.919 --> 5:03:57.160 That the orchi Is code insisted that if you wanted 5:03:57.200 --> 5:04:00.760 the throne, you had to kill the reigning monarch. Golfing 5:04:00.800 --> 5:04:03.680 Bull stopped fidgeting and stared directly at me, his dark 5:04:03.800 --> 5:04:09.800 brown eyes boring into me. That's bullshit. I'm sorry, it's 5:04:09.880 --> 5:04:14.079 like three layers deep of bullshit. He was still staring 5:04:14.160 --> 5:04:17.880 at me. I was starting to regret this line of questioning. Okay, 5:04:18.080 --> 5:04:20.560 to start, there are pretty much two ways to interpret 5:04:20.600 --> 5:04:23.400 the Orcish Code of Honor. It's not written down anywhere, 5:04:23.440 --> 5:04:26.840 but there's some strong central themes, like an interdependence between 5:04:26.880 --> 5:04:31.160 individual sovereignty and collective identity. We value strength, but the 5:04:31.320 --> 5:04:35.160 idea is that everyone develops their own strengths, whatever they 5:04:35.200 --> 5:04:37.440 may be, for the benefit of all. One should be 5:04:37.480 --> 5:04:39.560 as self reliant as one is able to be, both 5:04:39.600 --> 5:04:42.080 for one's own sake and again for the community's sake. 5:04:42.480 --> 5:04:46.200 I cared deeply about this. That same basic idea, though, 5:04:46.360 --> 5:04:49.960 can be interpreted two different ways. So there's a split 5:04:50.040 --> 5:04:52.920 in the orc community. Damn right, there's a split. The 5:04:53.000 --> 5:04:56.200 free Orcs are matriarchal and the or Seene are patriarchal. 5:04:57.280 --> 5:04:59.960 Golfin Bull produced a cigarette from god knows where, consider 5:05:00.000 --> 5:05:02.320 and how little he was wearing, and lit it with 5:05:02.360 --> 5:05:05.480 a lighter from the same mysterious origin. It wasn't tobacco, 5:05:05.800 --> 5:05:10.480 it wasn't weed, maybe mugwart. The matriarchal way of interpreting 5:05:10.520 --> 5:05:14.720 those tenants is roughly anarchist. It's anti authoritarian, an anti nationalist. 5:05:14.840 --> 5:05:17.680 At the very least, we respect the wisdom of elders, 5:05:17.800 --> 5:05:21.160 children and women self identifying women. But the hierarchy is 5:05:21.200 --> 5:05:23.960 anything but rigid, and the guidelines are anything but laws. 5:05:24.400 --> 5:05:27.800 Most importantly, our sense of community or tribe is fluid. 5:05:28.280 --> 5:05:32.080 Gray Morrow is a free orc village. Go fifteen miles 5:05:32.120 --> 5:05:35.680 southeast and you'll find a larger village lonely mountain there. 5:05:35.840 --> 5:05:39.400 Or Seen. The patriarchal way of interpreting Orchish tenants is 5:05:39.520 --> 5:05:44.040 roughly fascistic. Authority is absolute. Rank within the hierarchy effects 5:05:44.080 --> 5:05:47.320 every aspect of one's own life. It's not racialized, but 5:05:47.360 --> 5:05:50.920 it's nationalistic. There are very specific considerations of who is 5:05:51.120 --> 5:05:53.680 and isn't a part of any given social grouping, and 5:05:53.800 --> 5:05:57.880 definitions of strength tend askew toward boring shit like physical 5:05:58.000 --> 5:06:01.520 size and power. So you tell any doubters that you 5:06:01.600 --> 5:06:04.280 weren't trying to claim the goblin throne, because your faction 5:06:04.320 --> 5:06:07.480 of Orcs doesn't work that way. No orci Is culture 5:06:07.560 --> 5:06:10.720 works that way. Even those fascistic ships don't work that way. 5:06:11.120 --> 5:06:13.480 Among the or Seen. If you kill your superior people 5:06:13.480 --> 5:06:15.919 aren't going to just suddenly start kissing your ass. They 5:06:15.960 --> 5:06:18.560 will literally flee you and turn your skin into a 5:06:18.600 --> 5:06:22.240 battle flag. You advance in rank by demonstrating your capacity 5:06:22.320 --> 5:06:25.920 to lead. This isn't some fucking Hollywood bullshit. Evil is 5:06:25.960 --> 5:06:28.640 a lot more banal than that. I didn't have the 5:06:28.680 --> 5:06:30.760 heart or maybe the courage to tell him that to 5:06:30.880 --> 5:06:34.240 me too, pretty much, any outsider Hollywood bullshit is exactly 5:06:34.280 --> 5:06:37.960 what the whole place looked like. When you say battle flag, 5:06:38.160 --> 5:06:40.880 what do you mean? Who do they do battle with us? 5:06:41.440 --> 5:06:45.160 The free Orcs? Are you at war for the very 5:06:45.320 --> 5:06:49.320 soul of our culture? How'd that start? When I cut 5:06:49.440 --> 5:06:53.600 down Rick Green the Mountain King? You killed him because 5:06:53.600 --> 5:06:55.360 he was the leader of a rival faction, then, not 5:06:55.480 --> 5:06:58.520 because he was a poser. They weren't a rival faction 5:06:58.640 --> 5:07:01.040 until I killed him, But shure he was a poser 5:07:01.080 --> 5:07:04.680 though all fascists o posers. Did you go on tour 5:07:04.759 --> 5:07:09.760 with Goblin Forest specifically to murder him? Yeah? Probably? What 5:07:09.840 --> 5:07:12.680 do you mean probably? That's a very specific question about 5:07:12.720 --> 5:07:15.800 a very specific intention. I mean, I guess I had 5:07:15.880 --> 5:07:19.079 been thinking about killing him for a while. It was premeditated, 5:07:19.200 --> 5:07:23.080 and it wasn't you know? No, I don't know, because 5:07:23.080 --> 5:07:26.480 I've never killed anyone. So it's like I've known Rick 5:07:26.520 --> 5:07:29.160 Green almost five years. He and I and maybe thirty 5:07:29.200 --> 5:07:31.880 other people. We started this whole thing, Goblin Metal of 5:07:31.880 --> 5:07:34.559 the Orcs. All of that. Rick Green has always been 5:07:34.560 --> 5:07:37.200 a fucking bastard. I figured I'd probably kill him one 5:07:37.240 --> 5:07:39.960 day for being kind of a Nazi or whatever. Then 5:07:40.000 --> 5:07:42.000 we go on tour together and I tell myself, Hey, 5:07:42.160 --> 5:07:44.399 if this goes badly, I can always just kill him 5:07:44.440 --> 5:07:47.759 on stage. You've got to understand, Orcus culture wasn't even 5:07:47.840 --> 5:07:50.480 a year old at that point. We weren't split into 5:07:50.520 --> 5:07:52.640 the Free Orcs in the ore Seene yet. There were 5:07:52.680 --> 5:07:55.720 only maybe five villages total. We were just starting to 5:07:55.840 --> 5:07:58.200 explore what it meant to be ourselves, what kind of 5:07:58.280 --> 5:08:01.040 culture we could build the in. While we were on tour, 5:08:01.400 --> 5:08:05.160 I hear he's got himself crowned the Mountain King. And 5:08:05.240 --> 5:08:07.160 this isn't a game. I don't know how to get 5:08:07.240 --> 5:08:09.840 that through to you or your readers. This is our life. 5:08:10.160 --> 5:08:11.680 It's one thing to put on a silly hat and 5:08:11.759 --> 5:08:14.200 pretend to tell people what to do in some larp somewhere. 5:08:14.480 --> 5:08:18.600 But Rick Green had gotten himself corornated for real dictator 5:08:18.840 --> 5:08:22.040 over actual people. So I killed him. The Free York 5:08:22.120 --> 5:08:24.480 split off, the or Seine closed ranks, and we've been 5:08:24.520 --> 5:08:28.560 at war ever since. Am I safe here? He didn't 5:08:28.600 --> 5:08:30.800 answer me, at least he didn't stare me down again. 5:08:31.320 --> 5:08:34.320 He just looked off into the distance, maybe towards Lonely Mountain. 5:08:36.360 --> 5:08:38.520 I've been to laps before, where when you show up, 5:08:38.560 --> 5:08:40.600 they make you put on garb. That is to say, 5:08:40.720 --> 5:08:43.280 they make you wear period appropriate clothes, or whatever weird 5:08:43.360 --> 5:08:46.960 interpretation of period appropriate that particular group of Larbers had 5:08:47.000 --> 5:08:49.919 come up with. As I met the denizens of the village, 5:08:51.040 --> 5:08:53.480 they all came out to the parking lot to introduce themselves. 5:08:53.840 --> 5:08:56.120 I realized they didn't insist on anything like that because 5:08:56.560 --> 5:08:59.400 they weren't LARPing. Pretty much, every one of them was 5:08:59.480 --> 5:09:02.280 dressed like either a Viking reenactor or fantasy game villain, 5:09:02.720 --> 5:09:06.120 but it wasn't an act. About thirty adults and eight 5:09:06.240 --> 5:09:08.840 kids lived there, running the age gamut from six months 5:09:08.919 --> 5:09:12.280 to seventy eight years. They told me their names and pronouns. 5:09:12.360 --> 5:09:14.400 About a third told me she, a third he in 5:09:14.440 --> 5:09:17.200 the third day. Many of them were white or past 5:09:17.240 --> 5:09:20.640 as such, but a significant minority were black. Nourenda told 5:09:20.680 --> 5:09:23.359 me later. There are Orc villages with substantially higher proportions 5:09:23.400 --> 5:09:25.600 of people of color. That might be true, but I 5:09:25.640 --> 5:09:27.880 got the impression she said it to convince herself or 5:09:28.000 --> 5:09:31.040 me that the free Orcs aren't a specifically white phenomenon. 5:09:31.680 --> 5:09:34.559 No One, no one decent, likes looking around their community 5:09:34.640 --> 5:09:38.480 or scene and seeing only white faces smiling back. After 5:09:38.560 --> 5:09:41.800 everyone introduced themselves, immediately forgot all their names. There are 5:09:41.840 --> 5:09:44.760 only so many fantasy names like Lazarre and Demlin that 5:09:44.800 --> 5:09:46.520 you can hear before they all just sound the same. 5:09:48.040 --> 5:09:50.280 Nourenda and Fenrik flanked me as we walked through a 5:09:50.320 --> 5:09:53.040 gate in the wall into the village. It's strange to 5:09:53.080 --> 5:09:55.759 say village in America. We don't really have villages here, 5:09:56.240 --> 5:09:59.640 but in some ways Graymorrow isn't the United States. And 5:09:59.680 --> 5:10:02.640 to be certain, it was a village, maybe ten or 5:10:02.680 --> 5:10:05.360 fifteen houses crowded together along either side of a single 5:10:05.440 --> 5:10:10.039 potholed street. Two architectural styles reigned, junkyard shacks built out 5:10:10.080 --> 5:10:14.079 of railroad cars in regular cars, and traditional American log cabins, 5:10:14.800 --> 5:10:17.400 many of them were adorned with solar panels. At the 5:10:17.520 --> 5:10:20.480 end of the street, near the black Palisade, the beginnings 5:10:20.520 --> 5:10:24.160 of a stone tower stood fifteen feet high. I wasn't 5:10:24.160 --> 5:10:26.480 sure if I was impressed or not. On one hand, 5:10:26.560 --> 5:10:28.360 the village couldn't have been around longer than three or 5:10:28.400 --> 5:10:30.680 four years, and they had already done so much. On 5:10:30.759 --> 5:10:34.400 the other hand, it was filthy. Everyone was filthy. I'm 5:10:34.440 --> 5:10:36.400 kind of obsessed with the post civilization movement, so I 5:10:36.400 --> 5:10:38.440 wish I could tell you everyone looked well fed and happy. 5:10:39.080 --> 5:10:42.240 They didn't. People looked proud, and they didn't look miserable. 5:10:42.320 --> 5:10:44.560 But there was an intensity in everyone's eyes you simply 5:10:44.600 --> 5:10:48.840 could not mistake for happiness. A trash pile needed tending 5:10:48.880 --> 5:10:50.760 near the front gate, and some of the animal hides 5:10:50.800 --> 5:10:53.800 stretched for tanning had begun to rot. Everything looked like 5:10:53.880 --> 5:10:56.560 it was about to fall apart, both physically and metaphorically. 5:10:57.919 --> 5:11:00.200 What now, I asked when we reached the central school air, 5:11:00.360 --> 5:11:03.120 a stone cobbled chunk of what had been once an intersection, 5:11:03.200 --> 5:11:06.440 now decorated with poorly tended gardens and rustic benches of 5:11:06.520 --> 5:11:09.960 dubious quality. You're here to interview golfing Ball or you're not, 5:11:10.200 --> 5:11:14.120 Fendrick asked, I am golf Ball doesn't live here. I 5:11:14.240 --> 5:11:16.800 waited for her to elaborate, golfing Ball lives in the 5:11:16.880 --> 5:11:19.360 forest with the rest of his band. He's on his way. 5:11:19.480 --> 5:11:21.759 You'll meet him a bit outside of town. I'll take 5:11:21.800 --> 5:11:25.160 you to him when he gets there. Someone near the 5:11:25.200 --> 5:11:27.880 gates shouted, and both of my escorts flinched bodily and 5:11:28.000 --> 5:11:30.960 turned to look. It was just a kid chasing another 5:11:31.040 --> 5:11:34.520 kid with a wooden sword. Fenrick and Narindo were on edge. 5:11:35.160 --> 5:11:40.440 Something was about to happen. Tell me about your new band, Ulcre. 5:11:41.080 --> 5:11:44.680 What does the name mean? Alsirith is the dark speech 5:11:44.800 --> 5:11:46.760 word for the phase of the moon on the last 5:11:46.919 --> 5:11:49.840 night before the new moon, the last sliver of light. 5:11:50.320 --> 5:11:53.320 Ulsareth is a holy day, a day of self reflection. 5:11:53.720 --> 5:11:57.120 Our band's music attempts to capture that spirit of self reflection. 5:11:57.680 --> 5:12:00.600 On Alcyreth, we listen to our naysayer and think about 5:12:00.600 --> 5:12:06.360 ourselves and our community your naysayer. Free Orchish villages don't 5:12:06.400 --> 5:12:09.640 have leaders, We have naysayers. Two years ago, we tried 5:12:09.800 --> 5:12:14.240 rotating leadership. It was ineffectual. We didn't need leaders. We 5:12:14.320 --> 5:12:16.520 stuck with it anyway because we felt like we had to, 5:12:16.720 --> 5:12:18.560 because those were the rules we had come up with. 5:12:19.160 --> 5:12:22.280 Then one person said, basically, this is bullshit. We don't 5:12:22.320 --> 5:12:24.440 need someone to tell us what to do. We need 5:12:24.520 --> 5:12:26.719 someone to tell us what to stop doing. We need 5:12:26.840 --> 5:12:29.720 someone to tell us what we're doing wrong. Every new moon, 5:12:29.880 --> 5:12:33.120 every village picks a new naysayer. That person spends the 5:12:33.160 --> 5:12:36.200 month picking up heart group structures, observing what's happening, being 5:12:36.240 --> 5:12:39.800 critical on Alsareth, We fast and listen to the naysayer. 5:12:40.200 --> 5:12:43.719 They don't offer solutions necessarily, but instead bring our problems 5:12:43.759 --> 5:12:48.680 to light. Does that work surprisingly well? Except about a 5:12:48.759 --> 5:12:51.040 third of the naysayers end up leaving after their month. 5:12:51.480 --> 5:12:53.400 Some go to other villages, Some go to live in 5:12:53.440 --> 5:12:57.520 the forest, like Narinda Alsareth singer did, but most leave 5:12:57.600 --> 5:13:00.920 the woods. As we put it, most go back to civilization. 5:13:02.600 --> 5:13:04.760 That's why Narenda's name sound of familiar when she didn't. 5:13:04.800 --> 5:13:07.480 She introduced herself. To be honest, I saw your name 5:13:07.520 --> 5:13:09.440 list in the liner notes and didn't pay much attention 5:13:09.480 --> 5:13:12.440 to the rest. That's an argument for me to take 5:13:12.480 --> 5:13:14.840 my name off our next release. If there is one, 5:13:15.880 --> 5:13:17.399 why did you put it there in the first place, 5:13:17.720 --> 5:13:19.720 Why did you agree to this interview? And what do 5:13:19.759 --> 5:13:22.600 you mean if there is one? I told you we're 5:13:22.640 --> 5:13:28.000 at war. Yeah, we're losing that war. He took a 5:13:28.080 --> 5:13:30.640 deep breath, trying to keep himself calm. He didn't strike 5:13:30.720 --> 5:13:32.480 me as a man who was afraid to cry, but 5:13:32.560 --> 5:13:35.960 he was clearly trying to keep his composure. There's no 5:13:36.080 --> 5:13:38.480 way that Gray Morrow would have let you talk to 5:13:38.600 --> 5:13:40.759 me here if any of us thought that Gray Morrow 5:13:40.840 --> 5:13:43.000 had a future. There's no way I would have talked 5:13:43.000 --> 5:13:44.239 to you at all if I thought I was going 5:13:44.320 --> 5:13:48.239 to be alive to see another alster. Why are you losing? 5:13:48.560 --> 5:13:51.560 Why are you going to die? It's not a question 5:13:51.640 --> 5:13:54.520 of military efficacy, or of bravery or strength or any 5:13:54.560 --> 5:13:57.480 of that ship. It's just a question of numbers. We're 5:13:57.480 --> 5:14:01.239 seeing society as a military society. Every member fights. As 5:14:01.280 --> 5:14:04.039 far as we can tell, They've got fift hundred warriors, 5:14:04.600 --> 5:14:09.320 We've got five hundred, so use guerrilla tactics. Golf and 5:14:09.360 --> 5:14:13.200 bull shook his head. Striking Rick Green down from behind 5:14:13.320 --> 5:14:16.440 was a cowardly action. I can justify it almost by 5:14:16.480 --> 5:14:19.360 the fact that Green had declared himself my monarch. But 5:14:19.440 --> 5:14:22.400 the Orsine warriors are my peers. They would not stalk 5:14:22.480 --> 5:14:26.760 me in the night. I will not stalk them. That sounds, 5:14:27.440 --> 5:14:31.360 I know how it sounds. So this interview, I want 5:14:31.360 --> 5:14:33.960 to be remembered. I want the free Orcs of Cascadia 5:14:34.080 --> 5:14:36.280 to be remembered. I put my name on the liner 5:14:36.360 --> 5:14:39.600 notes so that someone like you, an anti fascist music blogger, 5:14:39.840 --> 5:14:42.160 would talk to me. I leveraged my own infamy to 5:14:42.240 --> 5:14:46.040 draw attention to what we're doing, what we've done. I 5:14:46.240 --> 5:14:51.040 fucking hate the tragic utopian trope. What like seriously like 5:14:51.240 --> 5:14:53.280 fuck you? Okay, I know I'm here as a journalist, 5:14:53.320 --> 5:14:56.120 but I'm not gonna write your fucking obituary. I don't 5:14:56.120 --> 5:14:58.600 think I've ever turned on an interview subject like that before. 5:14:59.600 --> 5:15:01.880 I get it. Hopeless causes are beautiful, but as I 5:15:02.000 --> 5:15:04.399 understand it, the whole goddamn point of holding onto your 5:15:04.440 --> 5:15:06.960 honor more firmly than your life is because the world 5:15:07.000 --> 5:15:10.840 is a better place for everyone if more people did that. Right, Okay, 5:15:11.880 --> 5:15:13.640 the world isn't a goddamn better place if you let 5:15:13.680 --> 5:15:15.719 your subculture. And I'm sorry, I know it's very serious 5:15:15.720 --> 5:15:17.400 and I'm not trying to downplay it, but that's what 5:15:17.480 --> 5:15:21.079 this is. A musical subculture be taken over by fucking Nazis, 5:15:21.720 --> 5:15:23.360 and I respect that you're going to fight them for it. 5:15:23.560 --> 5:15:26.160 That's cool. But if you consider buying some guns, maybe 5:15:26.200 --> 5:15:28.559 a few drones, they'll come in here with spears, right, 5:15:28.600 --> 5:15:32.039 and you'll fight them off with other spears. It's man, 5:15:32.120 --> 5:15:34.280 there are fucking Nazis everywhere. If you don't give a 5:15:34.280 --> 5:15:36.800 ship about going to jail or dying, then fucking shoot 5:15:36.840 --> 5:15:39.800 the Nazis. We're trying to kill you. You don't understand, 5:15:40.480 --> 5:15:45.120 You're fucking right. I don't, if I'm being honest. Most 5:15:45.160 --> 5:15:46.880 of the time I was waiting, I spent flirting with 5:15:46.960 --> 5:15:49.880 Norenda and avoiding talking to Fenrich Horenda asked me to 5:15:49.960 --> 5:15:52.800 keep our conversation off the record. We didn't talk about 5:15:52.840 --> 5:15:55.520 Gray Morrow or the orc thing much. Anyway. Everything I 5:15:55.640 --> 5:15:58.040 learned about the village and its culture I learned by observation. 5:15:58.160 --> 5:16:01.400 Only An elderly and came by and offered us cold 5:16:01.440 --> 5:16:04.960 tea and wooden mugs steeped BlackBerry leaves sweetened with juice 5:16:05.000 --> 5:16:08.039 from the berries. He said, no caffeine, no other particularly 5:16:08.040 --> 5:16:11.800 strong medicinal effects. The three of us took cups from 5:16:11.840 --> 5:16:14.440 his bladder, and he continued down the street passing out drinks. 5:16:15.320 --> 5:16:17.960 No one else approached us. I watched people go about 5:16:17.960 --> 5:16:20.120 their lives, though the tension in the air was thick. 5:16:21.200 --> 5:16:22.920 I saw a few people look at cell phones and 5:16:23.000 --> 5:16:26.000 spent a not inconsiderable amount of time trying to decide 5:16:26.040 --> 5:16:29.240 if that was hypocritical and or bad ops sec. Eventually 5:16:29.280 --> 5:16:31.320 I gave up, because frankly, it wasn't my business, and 5:16:31.400 --> 5:16:33.160 one of the most interesting things about all the post 5:16:33.200 --> 5:16:36.040 civilization groups is all the bits and pieces they choose 5:16:36.120 --> 5:16:40.120 to carry over from mainstream culture. Finally, after an hour, 5:16:40.880 --> 5:16:44.720 Fenric stood up come with me. I followed her to 5:16:44.759 --> 5:16:46.680 the other side of town and through a smaller gait. 5:16:47.160 --> 5:16:49.280 On the other side, a box truck that had seen 5:16:49.360 --> 5:16:51.920 better days sat on a road that had to We 5:16:52.040 --> 5:16:54.400 skirted around the truck and up into the black forest. 5:16:55.840 --> 5:16:58.600 The scorched hills looked more like meadows than forests, with 5:16:58.720 --> 5:17:01.600 green grass and undergrowth broken only by black spikes of 5:17:01.640 --> 5:17:04.520 burned trees. We followed the path this way and that, 5:17:04.720 --> 5:17:08.120 and soon I was lost. Soon after fog set in, 5:17:09.160 --> 5:17:11.640 I was further through the looking glass than I had realized. 5:17:12.080 --> 5:17:14.360 I imagined us lost a mile from a town full 5:17:14.360 --> 5:17:16.440 of people who gave a double meaning to the word stranger, 5:17:16.520 --> 5:17:19.560 and probably at least an hour's drive from civilization. My 5:17:19.640 --> 5:17:21.480 guard hadn't shown me much in the way of kindness, 5:17:21.520 --> 5:17:22.840 and I was on my way to meet someone I 5:17:22.919 --> 5:17:25.440 knew to be a murderer. It's the kind of shift 5:17:25.480 --> 5:17:27.920 I live for. If I'm being honest, I love my stupid, 5:17:28.000 --> 5:17:30.440 fucking weird job in the stupid fucking weird world we 5:17:30.560 --> 5:17:33.400 live in. Thank you, my readers for making that possible 5:17:33.440 --> 5:17:35.200 for me. Be sure to check out my Patreon page 5:17:35.240 --> 5:17:36.600 if this is the first thing you've read by me. 5:17:37.040 --> 5:17:39.200 Lots of members only content over there, including a few 5:17:39.240 --> 5:17:42.840 snippets of orc song from Narinda. The only thing I 5:17:42.919 --> 5:17:45.320 saw in the distance was a single black spire, thicker 5:17:45.400 --> 5:17:47.960 than the dead snags around me. As we approached, it 5:17:48.040 --> 5:17:50.520 came into focus as a boulder jutting up into the 5:17:50.560 --> 5:17:53.240 sky like an angry finger. Sitting at the base of 5:17:53.320 --> 5:17:55.400 it was a short man with a sword across his lap, 5:17:56.080 --> 5:17:59.080 golfing bull. I'll leave you too to it, Fenrick said. 5:17:59.759 --> 5:18:02.480 She left me alone with an arm murderer. I sat 5:18:02.520 --> 5:18:04.880 down across from him, took out the notebook and recorder 5:18:05.000 --> 5:18:10.840 and asked him questions. All right, convince me we can't 5:18:11.000 --> 5:18:14.000 fight them dishonorably, because you can't protect an idea by 5:18:14.040 --> 5:18:16.880 defiling that idea. We don't want them to destroy our 5:18:16.919 --> 5:18:18.719 way of life. But we don't want to destroy our 5:18:18.759 --> 5:18:22.640 way of life ourselves either. The basic problem with your 5:18:22.680 --> 5:18:24.560 scene is that they're interpreting your code of honor to 5:18:24.800 --> 5:18:29.399 mean might makes right. Yeah. Yes. By facing them an 5:18:29.400 --> 5:18:32.160 open battle and nobly dying or whatever your goddamn planet is, 5:18:32.280 --> 5:18:36.239 you're just letting them make m right. You're letting their 5:18:36.240 --> 5:18:39.079 superior numbers dictate what your cultures to look like. It's 5:18:39.120 --> 5:18:42.079 like majority voting, but even dumber because more people die. 5:18:43.080 --> 5:18:45.320 I expected him to double down on his position. Most 5:18:45.360 --> 5:18:50.160 men would. What do you suggest instead, Fuck? I don't know. 5:18:50.560 --> 5:18:53.160 Don't be here when they attack, Go somewhere else, stay 5:18:53.200 --> 5:18:55.520 on the move, build your strength. Oh ship, That's what 5:18:55.640 --> 5:19:01.960 Rick Green was doing, wasn't it. Huh Goblin Forest singing 5:19:02.000 --> 5:19:04.680 in English, a stupid name like Grick Green All. That 5:19:04.720 --> 5:19:06.960 ship was designed to make Goblin metal more palatable to 5:19:07.040 --> 5:19:10.520 the masses, to get fans, to get recruits for his stupid, 5:19:10.560 --> 5:19:16.480 fucking fashy goals. Yep, do that. I mean, don't become 5:19:16.520 --> 5:19:18.560 fascists or change your name or make your music worse. 5:19:18.600 --> 5:19:21.520 Everyone knows Goblin Forest and have shipped on Krimpotzool. Just 5:19:22.160 --> 5:19:24.520 don't be obscure for the sake of being obscure. Fucking 5:19:24.560 --> 5:19:27.000 advertise you have a decent thing going here. People are 5:19:27.000 --> 5:19:30.800 abandoning mainstream society left and right, no political pun intended. 5:19:31.200 --> 5:19:32.840 Make it easier for them to get here. Make it 5:19:32.919 --> 5:19:35.480 so that when you fight the fashion your epics, swords 5:19:35.560 --> 5:19:39.360 and spears, Viking deathmatch, you win better. Yet, make it 5:19:39.440 --> 5:19:40.920 so they don't even want to funk with you because 5:19:40.919 --> 5:19:44.920 they know they'll lose. I don't know whether that would work. Yeah, 5:19:45.000 --> 5:19:48.560 but dying doesn't work either. The Eark way of life 5:19:48.640 --> 5:19:50.880 isn't meant to be some revolution. It's not meant to 5:19:50.919 --> 5:19:54.080 supplant the mainstream. It will never appeal to the mainstream, 5:19:54.200 --> 5:19:56.760 not without losing its soul. Would you live like this? 5:19:57.240 --> 5:20:01.040 Would you want to? You're right, I'm obsessed with you 5:20:01.120 --> 5:20:03.560 weird subcultures, but I wouldn't want to live like you. 5:20:04.480 --> 5:20:06.760 We both stared at each other in silence. It wasn't 5:20:06.759 --> 5:20:11.160 an uncomfortable silence. We're both just thinking, okay, scrap that. 5:20:11.440 --> 5:20:13.079 You're never going to get big numbers. You don't need 5:20:13.120 --> 5:20:15.879 big numbers. You don't want big numbers. You don't need recruits, 5:20:16.040 --> 5:20:21.160 you need allies. What would that look like god damn dude, 5:20:21.240 --> 5:20:23.640 all Orcish men note, actually listen to women's ideas. I'm 5:20:23.680 --> 5:20:26.400 used to guys just talking over me and shutting down completely. 5:20:26.440 --> 5:20:30.080 If I get mad free Orkish men, I would hope 5:20:30.240 --> 5:20:34.680 know how to listen. Guns break the spell and the 5:20:34.759 --> 5:20:37.680 spill you're casting here. It's powerful, it's good. So no guns. 5:20:38.040 --> 5:20:40.760 Other people have guns, though, Let those people stand guard 5:20:40.919 --> 5:20:43.759 or make their arm presence. Note outside or seen camps, 5:20:44.280 --> 5:20:46.919 other people have access to, say, dock singe. How many 5:20:47.000 --> 5:20:48.560 recruits are the or Sine going to get if every 5:20:48.600 --> 5:20:51.120 time some want to be forced Nazi dude joins, someone 5:20:51.160 --> 5:20:53.879 tells his mother what they're about for access to the media, 5:20:54.120 --> 5:20:56.720 How many recruits are going to join if everyone knows 5:20:56.759 --> 5:20:59.400 the or Sine or posers putting out substandard, watered down 5:20:59.440 --> 5:21:01.920 goblin metal just to try and lure an impressionable military 5:21:01.960 --> 5:21:05.320 aged men to fight their holy war. You'll write those stories. 5:21:06.560 --> 5:21:09.040 I'm not gonna write you any propaganda, but sure I'll 5:21:09.080 --> 5:21:13.360 tell the truth. How do we get allies? But at 5:21:13.360 --> 5:21:15.640 another single, maybe a full length The gray Fog of 5:21:15.680 --> 5:21:17.640 a Ruined Forest was the best ship of hurtin years. 5:21:18.080 --> 5:21:21.200 You're redefining folk music. Just like you redefined metal without 5:21:21.280 --> 5:21:23.719 ship like that, and I'll cover it, talk to more press, 5:21:24.040 --> 5:21:26.240 maybe someone other than you. Not everyone's going to be 5:21:26.240 --> 5:21:28.680 sympathetic to what you did, even if that fucking guy 5:21:28.800 --> 5:21:32.560 was a fucking tree Nazi hunting horn cut through the 5:21:32.600 --> 5:21:35.759 fog and through our conversation, and my subject's face fell 5:21:35.800 --> 5:21:38.759 into despair for a half second before determination took over. 5:21:40.040 --> 5:21:43.600 What's that interviews over? I thought there would be more 5:21:43.680 --> 5:21:46.240 time another day. At least, we have to get you 5:21:46.320 --> 5:21:51.040 out of here. Turns out Fenrik had taken us on 5:21:51.080 --> 5:21:54.240 a purposefully circatuitous route into the woods. It wasn't a 5:21:54.280 --> 5:21:56.680 quarter of a mile straight downhill before golf and bowl 5:21:56.800 --> 5:21:58.879 and I reached the box truck at the back entrance 5:21:58.919 --> 5:22:02.400 to Graymorrow. Noriinda and Fenrick stood there talking with a kid, 5:22:02.480 --> 5:22:05.199 maybe fifteen, who was out of breath. She was dressed 5:22:05.240 --> 5:22:07.600 in scraps of fur and leather and cloth, like you 5:22:07.680 --> 5:22:10.520 might imagine a medieval beggar. It wasn't until I noticed 5:22:10.560 --> 5:22:12.600 all the twigs and sticks and moss tangled up in 5:22:12.640 --> 5:22:16.239 the fabrics I recognized it as camouflage. I saw about 5:22:16.280 --> 5:22:19.400 thirty the scout for that's what she was said about 5:22:19.560 --> 5:22:23.200 Fenrick asked, exactly thirty ten with pikes, ten with tower, 5:22:23.240 --> 5:22:26.360 shields and swords. Five archers, two scouts, two command one 5:22:26.400 --> 5:22:28.760 non combatant. I'd guess a surgeon, but I couldn't promise 5:22:29.720 --> 5:22:32.800 how far away I asked. Fenrick glared at me for interrupting. 5:22:33.400 --> 5:22:36.080 Five miles Norenda said, probably three and a half by 5:22:36.120 --> 5:22:38.440 now down hill. We have time to get you out 5:22:38.520 --> 5:22:41.800 with the children and the elders. The scout had just 5:22:41.960 --> 5:22:44.920 run five miles up hill because she was too stubborn 5:22:44.960 --> 5:22:47.720 to use a walkie talkie or a cell phone. We 5:22:47.720 --> 5:22:52.200 should evacuate everyone. Gulfumbule said what Fenrick asked. We've got 5:22:52.280 --> 5:22:55.040 walls and almost even numbers. Fuck them, this is our home. 5:22:55.759 --> 5:22:58.000 I wanted to shout at her, I wanted to shake her, 5:22:58.080 --> 5:23:00.200 to tell her this wasn't a fucking game, that it 5:23:00.280 --> 5:23:03.080 wasn't the twelfth century, and that killing people or dying 5:23:03.160 --> 5:23:05.840 over some squatted chunk of nowhere was somewhere between stupid 5:23:05.840 --> 5:23:10.160 and reprehensible. It didn't. Though I'm a good journalist, this 5:23:10.320 --> 5:23:12.360 isn't the place for us to debate this, Norenda said, 5:23:12.400 --> 5:23:13.960 and all four of them walked through the gate and 5:23:14.040 --> 5:23:17.040 left me standing by the truck. That was why the 5:23:17.080 --> 5:23:19.520 gardens were untended, and with the trash was piled up 5:23:19.560 --> 5:23:22.240 and the hides were left to rot. They were expecting this. 5:23:22.880 --> 5:23:24.960 They'd lost their will to pretend like their lives were 5:23:25.000 --> 5:23:28.840 going to continue to progress forward. I'm not the first 5:23:28.880 --> 5:23:32.160 to suggest that nihilism is the dominant effect of society today, 5:23:32.680 --> 5:23:35.920 with climate change destroying communities and bioregions all over the map, 5:23:36.400 --> 5:23:39.160 with the economic crisis deepening and the wealth gap widening. 5:23:39.560 --> 5:23:41.320 I think all of us are guilty of forgetting to 5:23:41.440 --> 5:23:43.960 tend our gardens. All of us have a hard time 5:23:44.000 --> 5:23:45.960 figuring out why it matters whether or not we deal 5:23:46.000 --> 5:23:49.400 with our trash. All of us have proverbial or literal 5:23:49.560 --> 5:23:52.840 Nazis marching on us. The Nazis the free Orcs of 5:23:52.880 --> 5:23:57.120 Cascadia are dealing with are the literal variety. Some cosplaying 5:23:57.160 --> 5:23:59.879 fascist was about to stick a sword between Norenda's ribs 5:24:00.520 --> 5:24:03.480 by Ale rose in my throat. I don't know I 5:24:03.600 --> 5:24:05.560 believe in love at first sight or any of that ship, 5:24:06.320 --> 5:24:10.000 but I just couldn't handle the idea. I fucking hate honor. 5:24:10.480 --> 5:24:13.480 I will never be an orc. I got lost running 5:24:13.520 --> 5:24:16.360 through solutions to the problem of hypothetical arrows and swords 5:24:16.400 --> 5:24:19.760 that were going to interfere with Nourindo's continued existence. Most 5:24:19.800 --> 5:24:22.400 of those solutions involved assault rifles, which I didn't have 5:24:22.480 --> 5:24:26.160 access to. Cars, though were available. What's thirty warriors of 5:24:26.240 --> 5:24:28.960 medieval armor versus one station wagon driven by an angry 5:24:29.000 --> 5:24:31.080 wound with a lead foot. I put the odds in 5:24:31.160 --> 5:24:34.880 my favor. I wasn't going to do it though. Instead 5:24:35.040 --> 5:24:38.040 I waited to evacuate. I don't think that speaks well 5:24:38.120 --> 5:24:41.840 of me. Individually and in groups, people came out through 5:24:41.880 --> 5:24:44.079 the gate and loaded bags and baskets onto the back 5:24:44.160 --> 5:24:47.240 of the truck. Noarinda returned with a simple backpack sewn 5:24:47.320 --> 5:24:50.520 from raw hide. Most of her belongings were probably wherever 5:24:50.640 --> 5:24:53.640 she Engulfingble and the rest of Alsyreth lived. She handed 5:24:53.680 --> 5:24:57.760 me my phone, I didn't have service. I wondered whether 5:24:57.840 --> 5:25:00.760 or not she engulfing Bule were dating. It wasn't relevant 5:25:00.800 --> 5:25:02.840 to the present moment exactly, But my mind always is 5:25:02.840 --> 5:25:04.920 a way of thinking about bullshit to avoid thinking about 5:25:04.919 --> 5:25:09.400 impending doom. Another important effect of our generation distract ourselves 5:25:09.440 --> 5:25:13.560 with disaster with petty things like love and jealousy. I 5:25:13.600 --> 5:25:15.400 don't know what you said to Golf and Bullnerando said, 5:25:15.600 --> 5:25:17.760 but whatever it was worked. He just convinced everyone to 5:25:17.840 --> 5:25:22.520 evacuate everyone, I asked, shocked, everyone except him and Fenric 5:25:22.600 --> 5:25:26.360 and Gorn. Which one's Gorn, the man who brought us tea? 5:25:26.440 --> 5:25:28.880 Do you remember him? He's old as ship, though, I said, 5:25:28.960 --> 5:25:32.360 because I have no fucking manners or common sense. Yeah, 5:25:32.440 --> 5:25:34.760 he's old as ship. He's a linguist by training. His 5:25:34.840 --> 5:25:37.280 main hobby is writing morbid poetry and dark speech, and 5:25:37.759 --> 5:25:39.360 when he can't figure out how to say something, he 5:25:39.440 --> 5:25:41.840 just makes up new words. He developed about a third 5:25:41.880 --> 5:25:44.320 of the language. Did all that ship before orc culture 5:25:44.400 --> 5:25:47.360 was even around. He's also a widower three times over. 5:25:47.759 --> 5:25:50.000 He doesn't give a shit about dying. His last chat 5:25:50.040 --> 5:25:53.960 book was called Soon I will return to the Earth. Oh, 5:25:54.960 --> 5:25:57.720 Gorn is going to die today. Golf and Bull and Fenric, 5:25:57.800 --> 5:25:59.480 they're going to hold the wall as long as they 5:25:59.520 --> 5:26:01.920 can in the fall. Back to the woods and you, 5:26:02.120 --> 5:26:05.160 I asked, I'm driving us out of here to another village. 5:26:05.320 --> 5:26:08.880 Then I'll take you home after that. I don't know, girl, 5:26:09.320 --> 5:26:10.840 I don't know. If I signed up for this, I 5:26:10.919 --> 5:26:13.040 might leave the woods, go back to being a vet tech, 5:26:13.919 --> 5:26:16.359 I just nodded. I was too biased to offer objective 5:26:16.400 --> 5:26:19.360 life advice. Oh, and golf and Ball said to give 5:26:19.400 --> 5:26:21.720 you this, He said, it's in case he dies. He says, 5:26:21.800 --> 5:26:24.040 you're right. You shouldn't have to write his obituary. So 5:26:24.160 --> 5:26:27.160 we wrote his own. She handed me a piece of paper. 5:26:28.000 --> 5:26:29.760 I piled into the back of the box truck with 5:26:29.840 --> 5:26:33.120 forty other people, many of them in tears, many of 5:26:33.160 --> 5:26:37.000 them in shock, and we drove away from Graymorrow. None 5:26:37.040 --> 5:26:40.320 of the three free orc survived the battle. Goren died 5:26:40.440 --> 5:26:43.360 and paled on a spear while holding the gate. Fedric 5:26:43.440 --> 5:26:45.080 was killed by an arrow that struck her in the 5:26:45.120 --> 5:26:47.040 back of the neck as she and golfing Bull ran 5:26:47.840 --> 5:26:51.120 Golfing Bull. Fenric's lover turned and stood his ground over 5:26:51.160 --> 5:26:54.240 her body. I didn't know any of that yet. I 5:26:54.280 --> 5:26:57.760 found out when Nearinda found out two days later. Maybe 5:26:57.800 --> 5:26:59.640 all three of them would have survived. If I hadn't 5:26:59.640 --> 5:27:01.840 in her ear, and they had all fought with equal numbers, 5:27:02.320 --> 5:27:04.600 maybe more of them would have died. Maybe I can 5:27:04.680 --> 5:27:08.720 forgive myself, Maybe there's nothing to forgive. In the back 5:27:08.800 --> 5:27:11.080 of the truck, by the light coming in through a crack, 5:27:11.160 --> 5:27:13.759 in the steel wall. I read Golf and Bull's Note 5:27:15.200 --> 5:27:17.240 all my life. I didn't give a shit about anything. 5:27:17.560 --> 5:27:20.240 I liked weed and metal in whatever counterculture trend was 5:27:20.320 --> 5:27:22.640 big in a given year, but my heart wasn't in it. 5:27:23.000 --> 5:27:25.840 I just went through the motions until I became an ORC, 5:27:26.880 --> 5:27:28.680 saying I'm an orc and meaning it. Isn't like a 5:27:28.759 --> 5:27:31.320 trans man saying he's a man and meaning it. Gender 5:27:31.480 --> 5:27:33.879 is a social construct that goes back as far as 5:27:33.919 --> 5:27:37.040 I understand, to the beginning of humanity. There has always 5:27:37.080 --> 5:27:39.320 been gender, and there have always been people who transgress 5:27:39.400 --> 5:27:42.160 the roles assigned to them at birth. An orc is 5:27:42.200 --> 5:27:45.120 a social construct that we just fucking made up. I mean, 5:27:45.400 --> 5:27:47.480 I guess the orc is an archetype too, but it's 5:27:47.480 --> 5:27:51.400 a fantasy archetype. We know what's make believe. Make believe 5:27:51.520 --> 5:27:54.400 is what gave my life meaning. I promise you that 5:27:54.480 --> 5:27:56.520 for me. The day we decided we were orcs was 5:27:56.600 --> 5:27:59.320 the first day that the sun shone benevolence upon the world. 5:27:59.600 --> 5:28:02.160 It was the first day that color radiated from everything 5:28:02.240 --> 5:28:04.440 I saw. It was the first day that the rain 5:28:04.560 --> 5:28:07.120 on my roof tapped out codes of meaning. It was 5:28:07.200 --> 5:28:10.480 the first day of my life, my real life, my 5:28:10.600 --> 5:28:14.080 first Also, I fell in love with the world. Everyone 5:28:14.200 --> 5:28:17.400 finds meaning in different ways. I found meaning by believing 5:28:17.480 --> 5:28:20.000 in some ship we made up and letting that be real. 5:28:20.960 --> 5:28:25.040 I was born Jason Sanchez. I died gulfing Bull. I'm 5:28:25.080 --> 5:28:30.160 not sorry. That was great that I mean, not my narration, 5:28:30.280 --> 5:28:36.240 the story. The story, not my narration. Mm hmm. The 5:28:36.320 --> 5:28:38.759 second way finished, we all just got that little smirk 5:28:38.840 --> 5:28:43.320 on our face, like that was delightful. Yeah, Margret, you're 5:28:43.360 --> 5:28:47.880 the best. Yeah. I mean, if I were going to 5:28:47.960 --> 5:28:55.560 be an orc, there would be rifles but problems. Yeah, 5:28:55.640 --> 5:28:58.320 this is absolutely This is like a really good example 5:28:58.360 --> 5:29:00.040 of what I mean that when I write utopia in 5:29:00.120 --> 5:29:03.400 fiction or like fiction about other societies, I'm not saying, hey, 5:29:03.480 --> 5:29:06.000 everyone go do this, or like this is what people 5:29:06.040 --> 5:29:08.360 should do. No, I mean I liked that. I like 5:29:08.600 --> 5:29:11.359 I like that I've had that experience in other cultures, 5:29:11.440 --> 5:29:13.760 you know, places like slab City and different kind of 5:29:13.880 --> 5:29:15.880 encampments and whatnot that I've spent a lot of time 5:29:15.919 --> 5:29:18.640 and as a journalist where it's like I'm fascinated by 5:29:18.680 --> 5:29:22.199 and I respect aspects of this, but like, I also 5:29:22.320 --> 5:29:24.720 think some of these things are that you're doing or 5:29:24.800 --> 5:29:27.120 dumb or I don't understand why you do it, or 5:29:27.160 --> 5:29:30.200 this isn't like you know, but you don't. Your notes 5:29:30.280 --> 5:29:37.200 don't matter. You know, that's not your job, although actually 5:29:37.840 --> 5:29:40.680 having an impact in that way is is kind of Yeah, 5:29:41.560 --> 5:29:46.080 I don't know. Somebody go, somebody go make an work village. Yeah, yeah, 5:29:46.400 --> 5:29:48.480 I'll go out there, I'll report on it. We'll go. 5:29:48.800 --> 5:29:51.640 It'll be fine. Don't take the band name all sort 5:29:51.720 --> 5:29:55.840 though I already stole that. Yeah, there's a number of 5:29:55.919 --> 5:30:01.480 dope band names in here. People should make orc folk. 5:30:01.520 --> 5:30:05.280 I'd be really excited to hear make orc folk abandon 5:30:07.000 --> 5:30:15.000 civilization to live as fantasy creatures. Um, fight fascists, all 5:30:15.040 --> 5:30:18.880 that good stuff. Yeah, Margaret, is there anything you'd like 5:30:19.000 --> 5:30:22.840 to plug? Well? I do have a new book out, 5:30:23.120 --> 5:30:25.360 or a reprint of an older book called A Country 5:30:25.400 --> 5:30:28.320 a Ghost, that is a more directly utopian book. It's 5:30:28.320 --> 5:30:32.919 out from a K Press. Came out last month, and um, 5:30:33.840 --> 5:30:35.640 I think that's it. That's the main thing. Oh, you 5:30:35.680 --> 5:30:37.920 can support me on Patreon, although it's no longer supporting 5:30:37.960 --> 5:30:40.560 me on Patreon, it's supporting a publishing thing that I'm 5:30:40.960 --> 5:30:43.680 starting back up with people called Strangers and Entangled Wilderness 5:30:44.160 --> 5:30:47.120 and it will publish fiction and memoir and like the 5:30:47.200 --> 5:30:49.880 kind of like more culture side of radical politics and 5:30:49.960 --> 5:30:55.000 less the like theory and stuff. What's the patreon patreon 5:30:55.120 --> 5:30:57.759 dot com slash Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness? Because why 5:30:57.800 --> 5:31:01.480 would I pick short names for things? Ye do that? Yeah? 5:31:02.080 --> 5:31:06.840 And we have we have a live show coming up right, Robert, Uh, 5:31:07.240 --> 5:31:10.000 that doesn't sound like us. It's a virtual live show 5:31:10.160 --> 5:31:12.920 of for Behind the Bastards. Put our friend prop that's 5:31:13.000 --> 5:31:19.720 on Thursday, February allegedly moment House dot com slash Behind 5:31:19.720 --> 5:31:25.960 the Bastards. I can't confirm or deny that. Okay, you've 5:31:25.960 --> 5:31:29.920 gotta a lawyer on here before you can. Sure. Yeah, 5:31:30.280 --> 5:31:33.280 let's get Moira on the horn and where come on 5:31:33.400 --> 5:31:37.160 the horn and tell us if we're actually doing this thing? That? Yeah? 5:31:37.200 --> 5:31:42.120 Are we? Also? Are we alive? That's another question? How 5:31:42.200 --> 5:31:45.360 I texture that most days? Um? All right, well, thank 5:31:45.440 --> 5:31:47.960 you Margaret, and thank you all for tuning in in 5:31:48.080 --> 5:31:58.200 the first year of the rest of the next year. Hey, 5:31:58.320 --> 5:32:01.440 we'll be back Monday with more episodes every leek from 5:32:01.480 --> 5:32:04.960 now until the death of the universe. It could happen 5:32:05.000 --> 5:32:07.280 here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more 5:32:07.360 --> 5:32:10.120 podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 5:32:10.160 --> 5:32:12.000 media dot com or check us out on the I 5:32:12.120 --> 5:32:15.360 Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 5:32:15.960 --> 5:32:18.040 You can find sources for It could happen here, updated 5:32:18.160 --> 5:32:21.600 monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 5:32:21.640 --> 5:32:26.840 for listening. I'm Jake Halburn, host of deep Cover. Our 5:32:26.880 --> 5:32:29.240 new season is about a lawyer who helped the mob 5:32:29.520 --> 5:32:33.079 run Chicago. He bribed judges and even helped a hit 5:32:33.160 --> 5:32:36.520 man walk free until one day when he started talking 5:32:36.600 --> 5:32:39.440 with the FBI and promised that he could take the 5:32:39.520 --> 5:32:42.600 mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure 5:32:42.640 --> 5:32:44.920 out why he flipped and what he was really after. 5:32:45.560 --> 5:32:47.920 Listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, 5:32:48.000 --> 5:32:55.880 Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Gangster 5:32:55.960 --> 5:32:59.760 Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves around underworld, 5:33:00.200 --> 5:33:03.680 the criminals and entertainers into victims, crime and law enforcement. 5:33:03.759 --> 5:33:06.719 We cover all facets of the game gainst The Chronicles 5:33:06.800 --> 5:33:10.680 podcast doesn't glorify for motilised activities. We just discussed the 5:33:10.759 --> 5:33:13.800 ramifications and repercussions of these activities. Because at the law. 5:33:14.120 --> 5:33:16.560 If you played gamester games, you are ultimately rewarded with 5:33:16.680 --> 5:33:20.520 Gainster Prizes. Our Heart Radios number one for podcasts, but 5:33:20.640 --> 5:33:23.359 don't take our award for it. Find against the Chronicles 5:33:23.440 --> 5:33:25.800 podcast and I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get 5:33:25.840 --> 5:33:32.600 your podcast I'm Jake Halbern, host of deep Cover. Our 5:33:32.680 --> 5:33:35.040 new season is about a lawyer who helped the mob 5:33:35.320 --> 5:33:38.840 run Chicago. He bribed judges and even helped a hit 5:33:38.960 --> 5:33:42.280 man walk free, until one day when he started talking 5:33:42.360 --> 5:33:45.200 with the FBI and promised that he could take the 5:33:45.320 --> 5:33:48.360 mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure 5:33:48.400 --> 5:33:50.680 out why he flipped and what he was really after. 5:33:51.360 --> 5:33:53.680 Listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, 5:33:53.800 --> 5:33:56.759 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.