1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Robert sex Reese, host of The Doctor sex 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Rees Show, and every episode I listen to people talk 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: about their sex and intimacy issues, and yes, I despise 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: every minute of it. And she she made mistakes too, 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: she kill everyone at her wedding. But hell is real. 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: We're all trapped here and there's nothing any of us 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: can do about it. So join me, won't you? Listen 8 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 1: to The Doctor sex re Show every Tuesday on the 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get 10 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: your podcast. After thirty years, it's time to return to 11 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: the halls of West Beverly High and hang out at 12 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: the peach pit on the podcast nine O two one 13 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: o MG. Visit Jenny Garth and Tory Spelling for a 14 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: rewatch of the hit series Beverly Hills nine O two 15 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: one oh. From the very beginning, we get to tell 16 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: the fans all of the behind the scenes stories to 17 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: actually happen, so they know what happened on camera obviously, 18 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: but we can tell them all the good stuff that 19 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: happen off camera. Listen to nine O two one O 20 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: MG on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 21 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast. Give us ever attention. We 22 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: need everything you've got fast. Waiting on Reparations would beat 23 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: the podcast. Tune in every Thursday politics and wordplay. We 24 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: fight for the people because they got us in the 25 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: worst way, from the Hill, Cooper, the Bomb Bay to Kant, 26 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: from the left enclave to what the neo kanse every 27 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: conversation and to break us off with some break because 28 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: we wait repations. Listen to Waiting on Reparations on the 29 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get 30 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted 31 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: to let you know. This is a compiletion episode. So 32 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here 33 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 34 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 35 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 36 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 37 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen 38 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: Here a podcast about things falling apart and occasionally also 39 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: about what you can do about it. And today we're 40 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: doing We're we're going, we're we're going completely full into it. 41 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: What you can do about an episode, and specifically we're 42 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,839 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about unions, union organizing, the basics of 43 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: what they are and also some of the history of it, 44 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: and to to talk with us about this. I I 45 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: have brought. I brought my good friend John Horonymus, who 46 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: is a nurse steward with National Nurses United in Chicago. John, 47 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: how are you? How are you doing? I'm doing good. 48 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: Yesterday was my first full day back at work after 49 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: being out on light duty from having covid UH for 50 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: this last year. And so I got home yesterday and 51 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: was pretty tired because I haven't walked that much in 52 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: a day. No, it's fine, but I mean it was 53 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: a good day. I got lots of lugs from my coworkers. 54 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't forget anyone's name, which I was 55 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: terrified of, um, and didn't funk anything up. Um. And 56 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: then when I got when I got home, I hopped 57 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: on after I got my kids from school, I hopped 58 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: on a union organizing call with twenty nurses from a 59 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: hospital in the South. We're very excited about so um 60 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: I was. It was. It was a big day that 61 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: that rules. Oh yeah, yeah, I guess that should also 62 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: do a do a very very brief long COVID check 63 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: in because this is a everthing that I think people 64 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: are talking about that is also like a huge labor issue, 65 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: which is that Yeah, like long COVID fucking sucks and 66 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: like I like I know, like my like like one 67 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: of my cousins had it, and you know, they they've 68 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: been in bad shape for a long time, like they 69 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: still can't taste properly, and like they I think you 70 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: got from from what I remember, like pretty bad, like 71 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: in terms of yeah, sorry if you don't have to, 72 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: we don't want to, but oh I don't care. I 73 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: mean I think people should like know that this is 74 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: still going on, like the pandemic is still happening. Um, 75 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: people are still getting sick and some are still dying, 76 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: which really sucks. And the long COVID thing is real. 77 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: Um they I didn't get sick in the sense of 78 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: showing up having to be in like a hospital or 79 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: I see you or anything like that. Mine book, I 80 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: got sick, and um, the recovery, like the the year 81 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: or the month or so after I got sick was 82 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: when things actually got bad because something happened with my 83 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: um my nerves and my neuro I had a neuromuscular 84 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: variant of like the long COVID symptoms, and that led 85 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: me to having all its kinds of issues with basically 86 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: just being exhausted from basic things. Anything more than just 87 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: getting up and walking around. I would have to like 88 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: lay in bed afterwards. And it would add multiple episodes 89 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: of the past year where I would cross some invisible 90 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: line in terms of like endurance and then be stuck 91 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: in bed for a week. And so it's been a 92 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: long thing, but I've been slowly getting better, and people 93 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: who fall into that neuromuscular thing do slowly get better. 94 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: I think that's the upshot. People with heart problems, those 95 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: tend to be permanent and aren't getting better, which sucks. Um, 96 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean it's just like I think that 97 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: a lot of people. It's a very weird, surreal thing 98 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: to watch what is effectively like a like a a 99 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: global public health catastrophe get politicized the way it has 100 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: and treated the way it has been by everybody involved. 101 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: So um, anyway, I just I'm doing better with that, 102 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: and it's shaped me over the last year, and it's 103 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: shaped union organizing, and um, I'm glad that I would 104 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: say this to people who are thinking about unions. I'm 105 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: glad that I had the union kind of backing me up, um, 106 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: even when I had to pull them a little bit 107 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: in the direct the right direction. It's much better to 108 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: have that kind of collective power behind you when you're 109 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: dealing with those kind of problems. So that's actually a 110 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: good way into looking at just sort of in general 111 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: what a union is, because I think there's there's there's 112 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: two things here. There is what a union is legally 113 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: and what a union actually is in terms of just 114 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: the people in it and the sort of power behind it. 115 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: And so I was wondering if you could, well, one, 116 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: I mean, just on an incredibly basic level, explain what 117 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: a union is like legally, like what is legally defined 118 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: as doing, because I feel like that's also something that 119 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: is not as well understood as it should be. Yeah, 120 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: for sure. So in the United States, there's a series 121 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: of laws that kind of regulates um, you know, the 122 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: kind of collective UM bargaining UM and collective organization of 123 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: workers at work UM and or being to understand is 124 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:08,799 Speaker 1: that UM. Those laws are mostly designed to constrain workers 125 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: power to affect their their you know, working conditions UM. 126 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: And so when you look at what a union legally 127 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:25,559 Speaker 1: is UM, unions are, for the most part UM, they're 128 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: legal organizations that kind of like operate on a dues basis. 129 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: So if you're in a union, you're paying dues out 130 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: of your paycheck. UM. If you work at a unionized workplace, 131 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: those dues will get subtracted out regardless of your membership 132 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: or activity within the union. UM. One thing that people 133 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: don't understand is that you can if you don't want 134 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: your dues to go to anything besides supporting organizing your 135 00:07:54,920 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: particular workplace, you can request unions are legally wired to 136 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: offer you that as an option UM. And then those 137 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: dudes get taken out of your paycheck and they get 138 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: used to do things like rent a union hall, UM, 139 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: pay staffers to help you with your organizing. UM. They 140 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: get taken to do lobbying, various types of political activity. 141 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: And so for a lot of people, unions will feel 142 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: like a professional association that lobbies on their behalf rather 143 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: than a collective expression of the will of workers in 144 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: a particular workplace. But UM or it'll feel like patronage 145 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:48,599 Speaker 1: machine for you know, Democratic Party, that sort of stuff. UM. 146 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: But that being said, UM unions all have by laws, 147 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: they all have mechanisms by which there you know, theoretically 148 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: democratically accountable to the membership UM. And there are oftentimes 149 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: UM campaigns by workers to change how unions operate and UM. 150 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: And then also you know, when you're setting up a union, 151 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: if you're in a new if you're in a place 152 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: that doesn't have a union, and you're looking to get 153 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: a union because you're fed up with not having any 154 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: kind of power over your workplace, or you feel like 155 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: people are getting discriminated against or bullied, UM, you feel 156 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: like you haven't gotten a raise, UM, those sorts of things. 157 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: You can pick the union that you decide if you 158 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: want to get up a collective bargaining agreement, which is 159 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: a legal contract kind of like dictating how your workplace 160 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: operates in a uniform way. You can pick the union 161 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: that you want to organize with, and their unions that 162 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: are better to organize with, that are more democratic and 163 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: more collectively accountable. There are unions that are more organized 164 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: or more focused on actually building the union power and 165 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: organizing new workplaces. And then there are unions that are 166 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: kind of like there you know, and I'm gonna say 167 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: that kind of blur in the US, there's like a 168 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: blurry line between rank and file unions and business unions 169 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: because even the rank and file unions are kind of 170 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: constrained by the same pressures that business unions operate under. 171 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: And I'll explain the difference. I'll sell any difference in 172 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: a second, but I just want to say that, like 173 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: when you're when you're getting a new union, it's really 174 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: important for you to critically look at what your options 175 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: are and you're setting who you're organizing with, because unions 176 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: have different cultures and different amounts of um, different kinds 177 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: of politics, and you should be aware of that before 178 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: you and your coworkers decide to commit to working with 179 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: one union while you're getting an or a union organized. Um. 180 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: And then I can explain that next part if you 181 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: want me to. All right, So, yeah, So, And you know, 182 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: if you it deep into union history and deep into 183 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: organizing and figuring out like what unions are and what 184 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: they do and how they've worked kind of in the past, 185 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: you'll find that there's different types of unions. So American 186 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: unions started as like kind of like craft guilds, where 187 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: basically you would have a factory that might have like 188 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: twenty different unions of each individual group of people UM 189 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: in each individual skill set would be underneath the union, 190 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: and it was used as a way to kind of 191 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 1: control UM who was able to do the work and 192 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: who was getting hired in to do the work. And 193 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: a lot of times that would end up in the 194 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: United States UM being segregated UM and there would be 195 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: these called union scabbing where you would go in and 196 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: do work against people who are striking because your union 197 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: was fine and you were cool with your boss and 198 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: these other people, whatever their problem is, You're just going 199 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: to keep doing. The boss will offer you more money 200 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: and you'll do the work right. So, and a lot 201 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: of that has kind of carried into we called trade 202 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: unions in the US a specific and trade unionism is 203 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: particularly UM prominent in UH in construction. So you'll have carpenters, 204 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: and you'll have you know, masons, and you'll have you know, 205 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: pipe fitters and iron workers and all these different guys 206 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: and they all kind of come together and work as 207 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: a crew for like a construction company, and oftentimes their 208 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: union operates more like a contractor than like a collective 209 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: like expression of the power of those workers. So um, 210 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: then there are more there are unions that are would 211 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: be considered like industrial unions, so industrial unions. Industrial unionism 212 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: was invented by a union a hundred years ago called 213 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: the Industrial Workers of the World, and they were like, 214 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: what if we got took all of the workers in 215 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: an industry and got them into one big union, right, 216 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: and then what if all those workers in those different 217 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: industries were talking to each other and building their their 218 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: power And the goal would be that you had become 219 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 1: so powerful that you could basically take over industries as 220 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: workers and run them on a democratic basis, so that 221 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 1: you wouldn't have you kind of liquidate capital and want 222 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: I want to say this briefly also like yeah, so 223 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: the bosses did not like this. I mean the MW, 224 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: Like the MW was so feared that like like there's 225 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: only the Everett massacre where it's like it got to 226 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: a point in the early neteen hundreds where just a 227 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: group of IWW people showing up to a place was 228 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: enough to get like the the the the entire like 229 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: the entire city police force and like rounding up literally 230 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: every right winger they could do and deputizing them and 231 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 1: then just opening fire like into the crowd because like 232 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: the IWW had showed up on a boat like this 233 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: was these people were terried, like people were terrified of them. 234 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: And I think that the other thing I think is 235 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: really interesting about the early WWS history is that is 236 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: the so you know, part of the response to them 237 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: is like they are just massive, and this is what 238 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: the first red scare was. Basically it was an anti 239 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: IWW thing. And also you know, they shot people, they 240 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: arrested people, they like they deported people, and but they 241 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: also you know a lot of the things that I 242 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: think we we have this tendency to look at as 243 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: like a socialist reform where for example, like putting workers 244 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: on corporate boards, right, or like like in internal democratic 245 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: self management, but that's like, you know, that's still still 246 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: sort of boss controlled, right. It's like, well, okay, you 247 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: have like a council of people who can make recommendations 248 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: or like even even down to you know, we're going 249 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: to have our own internal like corporate unions like set 250 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: up by the company, but you know that the corporate 251 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: union gives you a workers council and the council can 252 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: sort of control production. But you know, it's it's still 253 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: it's still run by the bosses. Like all of these 254 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: things were stuff that like the Rockefellers set up or 255 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: like even even the early New Levels would set stuff 256 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: up because they were they were so scared of people, 257 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: Like they were so scared if people just taking over 258 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: stuff democratically, just running it just literally through the union 259 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: that they were like, we will we will literally give 260 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: you democracy in the workplace. We will give you like 261 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: we will give you like workers on corporate boards literally 262 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: just so long as you don't like take everything over. Yeah, 263 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: I think that it's it's hard for people to imagine 264 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: how intense like the struggle for getting any kind of 265 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: rights in the workplace. I've been in the United States 266 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: in particular. I think a lot of people think that, 267 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: you know, uh, maybe not so much anymore. But when 268 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: I was younger, you know, twenty years ago, people would 269 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: be like, oh, you know, we're in America. We've got 270 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, like we've got all these things, like we've 271 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: got you know, an eight hour work day, and we've 272 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: got like a weekend and all. And the thing is 273 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: is it literally only people were murdered to win those things, right, Like, 274 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: if you like the reason why we have an eight 275 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: hour work day is because there was in Chicago a 276 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: famous uh, a famous strike that um ended up with 277 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: a massacre of UM. It was like a police riot, 278 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: and then they rounded up a bunch of union organizers, 279 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: socialists and anarchists who were like involved in the labor 280 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: movement at that time, and then the state of Illinois 281 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: hung them. UM. And so the wife of one of them, 282 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: of one of those people who was murdered at the 283 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: Haymarket or they called them the Haymarket murders, h Albert 284 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: Parsons was one of them. Her or his wife, Lucy Parsons, 285 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: who was had a very veritable kind of like not 286 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: quite sure what her background was, but we do know 287 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: that she was probably be a former slave. H Albert 288 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: Parsons was a former Confederate. They got married in the South, 289 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: became Southern Republicans trying to like participate in radical reconstruction, 290 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: and then they basically had to flee because they were 291 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: um with their lives to the north and UH. But 292 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: after that whole trial and all that shook out, Lucy 293 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: Parsons became a labor agitator across the United States, fighting 294 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: for the eight Hour Day and U and they memorialized 295 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: the Haymarket Martyrs and something that I think some of 296 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: your listeners will know about. Maybe they won't, but you know, 297 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: made a made a A lot of people is like, oh, 298 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: that's Russian or some foreign sort of thing. Now, that 299 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: is an American labor tradition that like started here, and 300 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: it was because of a specific like the the labor 301 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: movement in the movement for the eight hour day in 302 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: the United States. So um, and that's kind of like 303 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: once you go from the i w W and industrial 304 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: unions as an idea, it got crushed in the twenties 305 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: because it was so terrifying. There's a really good, uh, 306 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: a really good essay on all that called the stop 307 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: Watch and the Wooden Shoe by a guy named Mike Davis, 308 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: who kind of explains how it is that IWW as 309 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: the first union too not only um try and build 310 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: workers organization, but to challenge workplace organization and to make 311 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: those push back on how production was happening and fight 312 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: something called the speed up where I think a lot 313 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: of people who have worked have experienced this time where 314 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: a boss will come in and say we're gonna do 315 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: things differently. And they'll either get rid of a worker 316 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: and put all the extra work onto people who remain, 317 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: or they'll change things so you're doing more with the 318 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: same amount of time. UM they got you know, they 319 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: provoked a backlash. UM. There were like spectacular like general strikes. 320 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: The first general strike in America. UH in Seattle, there 321 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: were i w W members who are key members of 322 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: the Seattle Labor Council, which took craft unions and got 323 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: their radicals together and coordinated a general strike, which is 324 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: where there's a lot of tweets about general strikes, but 325 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: general strikes require a lot of organization and coordination. We 326 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: can talk about that later if we want to, but 327 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: the key thing is the IWW was always pushing for 328 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: the organization necessary to pull off a general strike, and 329 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: they did it. And so amongst those different things and 330 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: their mind wars in Colorado, mine wars in Virginia, West Virginia, UM, 331 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: they were the first union that was explicitly anti racist. UM. 332 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: They they weren't perfect, but they were, but they organized 333 00:19:54,520 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: multi racial unions in UM Philadelphia, the docks, and various 334 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: other places. They were one of the few unions that 335 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: really took the first steps into organizing in the South 336 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: in the way that um, a lot of unions have 337 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: kind of failed too since and because they were so 338 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: effective and so frightening, they got crushed. Yeah, I mean. Also, 339 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: whatever thing I want I want to say about them 340 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: is that like, like the WW fought in the Mexican 341 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 1: Revolution because you know a lot of the WW members 342 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: in California particular were like a lot of a lot 343 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: of indigenous people, a lot of sort of boted Mexican immigrants. 344 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, they had these huge eies and like they 345 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: like they I think, I think to this day, this 346 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: is still true outside of Puerto Rico, Like they are 347 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: the only leftist movement that has ever like taking control 348 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: of an American city, like they took to Lexico and 349 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: Mexicality and like a bunch of the sort of the 350 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: border area. Yeah. That that's that, that's you know, part 351 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: of why it just escalates to everyone starts shooting them 352 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: because well, and and they were truly an international union 353 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: because they were they focused on uh, longshoremen and organizing 354 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: and docks that sort of thing. There were members of 355 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: the i w W organizing basically everywhere in the world, 356 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: and they were considered part of like what was like 357 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: a global movement, and we call them syndicalists, which is 358 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: kind of like a an Italian term or French term um, 359 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: which is this the you know, like like the Latin 360 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: version of the Union of syndicate and UM. There were 361 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: similar unions across the world up through the early twentieth 362 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: century until right about the time when the Russians, the 363 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: Russian Revolution happened, and then there were subsequent crackdowns. And 364 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: because these people, who I mean, the IWW was a 365 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: mix of native native born Americans and immigrants, and they 366 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: were painted as this foreign sort of force. They were 367 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: un American. That was like the whole nexus of un 368 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: Americanism as like an idea, and the US state was 369 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: able to mobilize after World War One to really put 370 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: that down. And so so there's a lot of history 371 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: there and then, but the idea of the industrial Union 372 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: didn't go away, right The union, the IWW was effectively 373 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: dismembered and scattered. But a lot of people who had 374 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: experienced as IWW members, who had been in those strikes 375 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: UM didn't like just disappear. They didn't all get deported 376 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: or sent away. UM. A lot of them kind of 377 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 1: tuck their heads down and went back to work, you know. 378 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: And in the ninet thirties we saw the rise of 379 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: another industrial the next step towards industrial unionism. So it's 380 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: called the c i OH, which is the Congress of 381 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: Industrial Organization. Now there were multiple at that point. There 382 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: was the Communist Party USA, the Socialist Party of America, 383 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: and UM former members of the i w W and 384 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: various like anarchists who were participants in kind of the 385 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: organization of the c i O. And the thing about 386 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: c i O was was that when they came together, UM, 387 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: it was in the Great Depression had really kind of 388 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: kicked off, and they were able to organize like really 389 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: explosively across all these new industries. So they like the 390 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: u a W. United Auto Workers was like part of 391 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 1: the c i O, and they would they pioneered forms 392 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: of strikes called sit down strike, which was basically a 393 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: factory seizure. All the workers would just say, we're not 394 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: going to walk out, We're going to lock ourselves in 395 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: and we're going to sit down and it's our factory now, 396 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: and now you're going to have to negotiate with And 397 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: it became this thing where it was like millions of 398 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: people were like the I w W at any one 399 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: time was like hundreds of thousands of people. And the 400 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: c I O became a thing where it was millions 401 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: of people and UM. And at least at the beginning 402 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: when they had there, when they had we're at the 403 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 1: peak of their like power and militancy. UM. They were 404 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: able to mobilize workers to take over factories, take over 405 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: factories from some of the most powerful corporations on the 406 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: earth on Earth. And you know, at the same time, UM, 407 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: while they were doing this, the police and UH company 408 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: UM company security and vigilantes which had never gone away 409 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: from like the IW we're doing the same sorts of things. 410 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: So they would regularly beat strikers, would regularly there would 411 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: be you know, regular labor massacres, UM disappearances of various 412 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: UM of labor organizers or labor leaders or even just 413 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: random workers that they thought were like, oh, you're a unionist, UM. 414 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: You know, get in the back of this uh, get 415 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: in the back of this truck. And then they were 416 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: never seen again. UM. And then laws started to be enacted, 417 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: I believe out of fear that if this, if this 418 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: movement didn't get somehow put under brought in under control, 419 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: that there would be a revolution and so. Uh so 420 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: that's when we started to see the enactment of laws 421 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: like the National Labor Relations Act, which made having a 422 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: union like that was the first time when being any 423 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: union is considered legal at the federal level. And that uh, 424 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: the FDR and the New Deal Democrats basically attempted to 425 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: broker something called labor peace where they would say, we're 426 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: no longer going to mobilize the state against workers in 427 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: the way that we have previously. Now local police would 428 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: still side with bosses that sort of thing. But uh, 429 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: and those sorts of massacres and that sort of stuff 430 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: didn't really go away until like the forties. Um. But um, 431 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 1: that was the beginning of because what you do see 432 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: is unions get channeled into Once you have like a 433 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 1: million people in the union, you have just enormous amounts 434 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: of resources, all these dues coming in. You have the 435 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 1: beginning of the labor bureaucracy. Whereas before it would be 436 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, there would be hired you know, paid labor organizers, 437 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: but they were always shifting around, and they were they 438 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: were brought up as communists or socialists, and they had 439 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: ideological commitments to building the power of the union and 440 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: the power workers that you know, if you are just 441 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: a you know, and someone with some ambition and decided 442 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: you want to become like anyone at this point, you know, 443 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: who wants to become a paid union staffer. If you're 444 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: like you know, if you care to and a lot 445 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: of people, um, then being a union staffer was a 446 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: different thing than it is now. It was I think 447 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember the name of the president. I 448 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,959 Speaker 1: think it's John Lewis. John Lewis, who was a Republican 449 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: back in the day said, you know, I think famously 450 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: said at one point it's like if you want to 451 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: build a union, or if you want to build a house, 452 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: you call a carpenter, if you want to build a union, 453 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: you call communists, and so uh and so they would 454 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: literally would go to like the the you know, the 455 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: Communist Party and say we need organizers. And the Communist 456 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: Party did a lot of work to training people to 457 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: be organizers. And they were militant, they were ready to 458 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: throw down because to them, they were looking at this 459 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: as part of a class struggle against you know, bosses, 460 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: and you know, a way of overthrown capital UM. That 461 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: kind of went through until World War two. And uh, 462 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: when World War two hit, that's when the Soviet Union, 463 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: which in many ways controlled what was happening with communists 464 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: with cp us A, basically said we need a labor 465 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: piece because we need to support the war effort. And 466 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: so that's when union started signing contracts with no strike clauses, 467 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: and they started um agreeing that they would no longer 468 00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: strike UM and and they started agreeing to things like 469 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: speed ups. There used to be a time when uh, 470 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: these mass industrial unions, the stewards would walk around with 471 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: a whistle on their neck. They have a whistle on 472 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: a lanyard and any time that workers decided that this 473 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: is like an example of how powerful these unions were. 474 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: Not just like as like an organization, but every day 475 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: at your workplace, if you thought that something was not right, 476 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: or you were not being treated fairly, or somehow the 477 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: contract was in breach, you would go to your steward 478 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: and your steward would pull out this whistle and it 479 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: would blow the whistle. It's called a whistle stop strike 480 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: and everyone would set down their tools until management would 481 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: come out and they would either agree to pay more 482 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: or stop what was happening and fix it, and so um, 483 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: there was a time when strikes would be you would 484 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: have intermittent work stoppages. So you wouldn't go out like indefinitely. 485 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: You would go out on strike like three months though 486 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: that happened. You wouldn't just and it wouldn't just be 487 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: your factory. It would be Hey, we're getting on the 488 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: phone and we're calling our friends down the street at 489 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: the next at your supplier. It's called a secondary strike. 490 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: So if you're working at like a steel mill, and 491 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: your steel mills dependent on coke from the next factory over, 492 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: you're calling up your friends in the same union down 493 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: the way, say stop sending coke, stop sending materials. Where 494 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: these things to us? We're on strike, you guys, you 495 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: all set your tools down, you go on strike. And 496 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,719 Speaker 1: it would and these strikes would like massively expand, so 497 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: you would see things instead of seeing you know, we 498 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: just went through Striketober, right, Yeah, and we just and 499 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: so we saw like what we call a strike wave. 500 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: But in and in some ways it was a strike wave. 501 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: But I think that we still don't. I think it's 502 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: so far away from living memory of what a real 503 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: strike wave is where people would go on strike in 504 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: one factory and then the next factory, in the next factory, 505 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: the next very It literally would be a way of 506 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: people um going on strike. And this was all the 507 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: results of all the organization that people had, in the 508 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: militant attitude that people had about like how they were 509 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: going to be treated at work. It's worth mentioning that 510 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: one of the so the National Labor Relations Act, which 511 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: because past nineteen turty five, which is like the you know, 512 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: this is the beginning of labor piece, like you know, 513 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: it's okay, we'll give you the right to re union, 514 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: but you cannot do secondary strikes like that, Like this 515 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: is this is explicitly banned in this if I'm remembering 516 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: this right, is that there's a specific thing that says 517 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: you can't do secondary strikes anymore. And you know, and 518 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: this was this was you know, the basis of this 519 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: piece was that like, yeah, as you sort of said before, 520 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: it was like, well, okay, so the state will put 521 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: their guns down, but the workers also essentially had to 522 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: put their guns down. And yeah, and this this starts 523 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: this whole process of you know, once once you lose 524 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: like that kind of consciousness. And once you lose just 525 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,959 Speaker 1: the practical experience of doing this stuff, it kind of 526 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: it fades and and over time, you know, yeah, the 527 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: atrophies and and the unions get weaker and weaker because 528 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: you know, like with without like you know what, once 529 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: you once you've set aside, right and you've decided that 530 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: you're gonna essentially you know, okay, we're gonna we're gonna 531 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: follow the laws, we're gonna sit down, we're gonna do this, 532 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: We're gonna like negotiate in good faith, we're going to 533 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: have all of this sort of um, you know, we're 534 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna go through the national relations board. It's like, well, 535 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: at that point, people like people, people's willingness to pick 536 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: the weapons back up that they put down just sort 537 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: of continues to diminish. Well, I think what happens is 538 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: I mean, And so there was like a ten year period. 539 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: So first there was like the first five you know, 540 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:46,959 Speaker 1: five ten years of c I oh was when we 541 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: see like this really like intense militancy within these unions. 542 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: And halfway through like you know, the passage of that 543 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: first long in the nineties, Um, that's when we started 544 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: to see the erosion, and we constantly see I think 545 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,239 Speaker 1: I think that people don't understand that our bosses are 546 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: always trying to assert their control over work, and we'll 547 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: see that like UM, bosses will do all kinds of 548 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: contortions as long as they get to stay in charge 549 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: and that they're unquestioned. And I don't think we understand 550 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: quite how long the long game is for UM, for management, 551 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: for our bosses, and for capital. And so you know, 552 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: it starts with the National Labor Relations Act and then 553 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: it goes through uh, um, it goes through World War 554 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: two and our World War two. That's when the c 555 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: i O goes from you know, you know, millions of 556 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: people to like tens of millions and it becomes like 557 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: a thing where like that's when you know, like Americans 558 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,719 Speaker 1: are in a union, right um, because I mean to 559 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: the extent that that, to the extent that um, there 560 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: were those compromises happened. It didn't just compromise. It wasn't 561 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: just like a failure of like, oh, like we're just 562 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: going to start capitulating. It's like there were interests inside 563 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: the union. They're looking at like, well, this is a 564 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: lot of resources and power that we have now but 565 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: wait until like it's you know of Americans paying union dudes, 566 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: and there were people inside the Democratic Party who were 567 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: willing to trade UM that labor piece for that. You 568 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 1: would start to see, you know, that's when politicians would 569 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: show up to UM two union halls to talk and 570 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: try and get you know, and that's when you know, 571 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 1: the Democratic Party, it would be it wouldn't be unusual 572 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: to hear a Democratic politician UM say things about like 573 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 1: labor that you would like that no politician would say today. 574 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: And now that doesn't mean that they were like on 575 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: the side of the workers, but you know, you would 576 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: have literally, um, President Eisenhower telling the president of U. S. 577 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: Steel to get fucked over like a general, like you're 578 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: you're trying to shut down like you know, this is 579 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: like the the steel industry is the lifeblood of backbone 580 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 1: of the American economy, um, you know, and you're trying 581 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: to shut this down, trying to kill the golden goose, 582 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: like get back to work, let the pay these people 583 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: what they're asking UM. But you know, so you would 584 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: see the people who kind of floated to the top 585 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: of those UH unions trading there, trading away their workers 586 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: power and their workers well being for more and more months. 587 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: First off, there would be more money, so you would 588 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: you like, they would start getting raises that were really substantial, 589 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: and it would boost up a union steel worker or 590 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 1: union auto worker into what we consider like the comfortable 591 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: middle class where people could like buy a like a 592 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: fishing cabin or something up on a lake, send their 593 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 1: kids to college, all these sorts of things that we're 594 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: just kind of like unobtainable sorts of things if you 595 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: were the same in the same industry twenty years earlier 596 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: and um and that felt like wins you know, two people. 597 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: And also in the nineteen forties, after World War Two, 598 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: they passed the taff Hartley Act, which basically meant that 599 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: they forced unions. Well they didn't, okay, they wrote into 600 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: law that it was illegal to be a communist or 601 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: an anarchist in uh in a union. And so they're 602 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: literally still unions that still have language in their in 603 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: their membership parts or they're like I declare, I'm I've 604 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: never been a member of the Communist Party. I'm not 605 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: an you know, an anarchist. Uh. I mean like I've 606 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: I have friends who have pulled that out. Now it 607 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: doesn't have any effect now. But that was they basically 608 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: took all the people, you know, the people that uh 609 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: that were you know, the people that you would have 610 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 1: called to build the union twenty years later or before 611 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: we're getting thrown out of unions. And that didn't happen 612 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: in every like there were attempts to do that in 613 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: all kinds of countries. Uh, they try to do it 614 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: in the UK, and the unions in the UK told 615 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: basically told the government to go fund themselves. And they 616 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: you know, it's like but because the leadership of the 617 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 1: of the c I O industrial unions began to see 618 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: themselves more in alignment with are ruling class and are 619 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, like the Democratic Party, they decided that they 620 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: were big enough that they didn't have to have militants 621 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: involved anymore. And that's when you know, uh, people were 622 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: literally would get fired out of did either either militants 623 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: in staff would get fired or uh, they would get 624 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: fired out of factories if you're like a rank and 625 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: file worker. So um, and that's when we begin to 626 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: see the rise of what we call business unionism. And 627 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: that's where he would have union bureaucrats would and um 628 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: would you know, would basically start making concessionary contracts and 629 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: this started you know back in you know, a lot 630 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: of people are like, oh, you know, back in the fifties, 631 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: unions are really powerful and they were powerful to get 632 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: you know, like raises, but those races came at the 633 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: expense of control over the work process. It came at 634 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: the expense of the speed up UM and as unions 635 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: like because the rank and file workers, like you're saying, 636 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: you know, rank and file workers, and they see their 637 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: things there, these tools getting put down, and they were 638 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,479 Speaker 1: more reluctant to pick them up, first off, is because 639 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: of the amount of money that they're getting paid. And 640 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: but they did push back. They were like this is 641 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: I mean, like there's a really great book called The 642 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: Next Shift UM by Gabriel Winant. It's all about the 643 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 1: shift from steel, the steel industry as like the center 644 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: of the U. S economy to healthcare UM and how 645 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: unions basically started to erode away there like throw it 646 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 1: like hand over their power in exchange for money. And 647 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: then when they are told like there was UM and 648 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:07,919 Speaker 1: attempts to get socialized medicine and the under the Truman administration, 649 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 1: and when they were basically ah, they they hit a 650 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: speed bump in there and it got shot down. They 651 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: decided that instead of trying to win those uh, those 652 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: broad social reforms for everybody, they're like, well, we can 653 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: use our our power to strike to get basically construct 654 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: a private welfare state for our workers. And so that's 655 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: when you begin to see UM things like uh. The 656 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: they call them like the gold plated insurance plans for 657 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: certain types of unionized workers, and those would kind of 658 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: UM and those are kind of used as like a 659 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: private welfare state for all those workers. And it was 660 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: built with the assumption you're going to have low cost 661 00:39:54,600 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: workers basically doing all this care work UM, and oftentimes 662 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: it would be women of color and UM. And through 663 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: that you start to see this real sharp pick client 664 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:15,919 Speaker 1: from the sixties in like uh in union um, militancy UM. 665 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: And that's when factory, when capital starts moving factories out 666 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 1: of city centers where it's very easy to organize a factory, 667 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: when everyone lives within walking distance the factory, and when 668 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: they're done with their shift at the factory, they're all 669 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: at the bar outside the outside the factory gates, and 670 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: you can just like if you want to have a 671 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: union meeting, if you want organized, even a wildcat strike, 672 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 1: all you have to do is show up at the 673 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,839 Speaker 1: right bar, and that's where everyone is after they're done 674 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:48,439 Speaker 1: with their shift. Um, they started moving and dispersing the 675 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: industrial capacity of the United of you know, the the 676 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: US urban core out into suburbs. So that's now where 677 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,760 Speaker 1: you'll drive through rural Indiana and you'll pass like five 678 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 1: factories and they're surrounded by nothing but corn fields. It's 679 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: because it's a lot harder to organize auto workers when 680 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: they all live thirty minute drive from each other and 681 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: none of them hang out at the same bar anymore. Uh. 682 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 1: And then you start to see UM. And all through 683 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: that time, the commitments to anti racism are eroded, so 684 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: you'll see UM jobs get start to get segregated out 685 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: inside it's like steel mills and things like that. But 686 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: then you know there's also the rise of rank and 687 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: file movements to push back. So UM. All the while 688 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about this, there's always workers who remember what 689 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: these things were like and why, and the power that 690 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 1: they used to have, and they would do the best 691 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: that they could get organized. So UM. There's a really 692 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 1: good UM documentary. You can find a YouTube called Finally 693 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: got the news. It's about the Dodge Revolutionary Union movement 694 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: in Detroit, which was a rank and file reform movement 695 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: organized by UM by black auto workers. They got like 696 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,240 Speaker 1: a fair amount of support from white auto workers because 697 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 1: they're basically there's you know, interviews with U a W. 698 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,760 Speaker 1: Bureaucrats and they're just like, you know, we're getting people 699 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: these raises. Why are they upset that they're like getting 700 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: named in the factory right, or why are they getting 701 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: upset that you know, you know, black workers are constantly 702 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: getting put into the shittiest jobs or the first to 703 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: get laid off, that sort of thing. And that's a 704 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: it's a really I suggest anyone has time. And that 705 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: came out of like the I think that was immediately 706 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: after the was getting organized after the assassination Martin Luther 707 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: King and all the riots that were happening in the 708 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 1: h in the sixties had like that late sixties period 709 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: UM in the seventies, there was a teamster, the teamster 710 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: rank and file rebellion. My grandpa was a team trucker, 711 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: was a teamster. She was like a punch card operator. 712 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean like teams at 713 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 1: these unions got so big and they have kind that's 714 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,400 Speaker 1: how you end up with like there's UAW teaching assistance 715 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: now right, Um, Like how do you end up with 716 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: these huge like uh unions? And during teams are rebellion 717 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: And my grandpa would tell these stories like we're going on, 718 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 1: there would be a wildcat strike and they call it 719 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: out over the CB radios. And the way they would 720 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: enforce the picket line wasn't just like oh, we're gonna 721 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 1: like standing in the road or something. They would hang 722 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: coke bottles full of rocks over the overpasses, just high 723 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: enough up to like that cars have pass underneath them, 724 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:39,720 Speaker 1: but if you hit one and you were in a truck, 725 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 1: it's funk up your day. Um. And that was like 726 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: a really um like a really kind of like powerful 727 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: pushback by breaking file workers against what they saw was 728 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,319 Speaker 1: the erosion of their power. Because I think that I 729 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: think there's this sometimes amongst people who would cosider themselves 730 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: to be left or whatever, there's like this kind of 731 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,479 Speaker 1: doom and gloom like, oh, it's only like we're only losing, right. 732 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,280 Speaker 1: But and there's been a lot of as the seventies happened, 733 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: and capital is kind of reconfiguring itself in the middle 734 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: of all the economic upheaval inflation. Um, basically, they got 735 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: to the point where we can't maintain labor peace and 736 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: maintain profits, right, so they could maintain labor peace and 737 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: have something more like a socialist system, or they can 738 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,800 Speaker 1: maintain control over the work process and just do everything 739 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: in their power to destroy the power of workers. And 740 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: they decided to do that. UM. So I think we 741 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: were coming out of this kind of era where you know, 742 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: if you were in a union and working at a factory, um, 743 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: there was a real threat that they're like, well, we're 744 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,360 Speaker 1: just going to shut this factory down and you know, 745 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,239 Speaker 1: not to get signed. Well, first it was the pet 746 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: Go strike with Reagan. Reagan gets elected and air air 747 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:02,280 Speaker 1: traffic controllers decided they're going to go strike and um, 748 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,759 Speaker 1: and they and Reagan decided he was going to break 749 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: it and they brought in they Basically there was this 750 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: bigger session. It was like this huge mess where people 751 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: were really desperate for work, and UM, you know, they said, 752 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: we're going to hire anyone to be an air traffic 753 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: controller and we're gonna break the strike. And that was 754 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,799 Speaker 1: the first real the first like that. The beginning of 755 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,240 Speaker 1: the end of that final like that big moment era 756 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 1: of industrial unionism in the United States. And we went 757 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 1: from a place where you know, U a W had millions, 758 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,360 Speaker 1: the United Auto Workers had millions and millions of workers, 759 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: and if you drove a car or a truck in 760 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 1: his main America was made by union worker to this 761 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: point where now the U a W is around fifty people. 762 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,879 Speaker 1: I was shocked when I heard that, literally like two 763 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,279 Speaker 1: weeks ago. Um, you know, we just had the big 764 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: U a W strike at John Dear Um. And there's 765 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: been and you know, all through this while this is 766 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,879 Speaker 1: going on, Um, there's various union corruption scandals. And that's 767 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: again the cause of like when you kick out all 768 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 1: the people who have an ideological commitment to improving the 769 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: lives of working people and building the power of working 770 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: people out of this organization that's only existence is to 771 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 1: like build the power of working people. Um, then you 772 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,320 Speaker 1: then you end up with people who are basically criminals, 773 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: like you end up like there would be uh. I 774 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:34,360 Speaker 1: think Reagan scat like Ronald Reagan was h was a 775 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,359 Speaker 1: union member, but he was like the union member for 776 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,440 Speaker 1: like a corrupt like there was like there was like 777 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,240 Speaker 1: a battle between like the c I O controlled union 778 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 1: in like Hollywood and like the corrupt like moss mobbed 779 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 1: up union and the mobbed up union, like that was 780 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: the side if I'm sure that that was a side 781 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 1: that Reagan picked and uh and yeah, so it's like 782 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,440 Speaker 1: you could kind of and there was a lot of 783 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: like media where they would be like you know, the 784 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 1: waterfronts in various like movies and things talking about union corruption. 785 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,359 Speaker 1: And I think that union corruption is real, and it's 786 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,719 Speaker 1: a it's when it happens, it's a huge problem. It 787 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 1: shouldn't like it's in other countries like in like in Germany, 788 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: if they found out like a union union official like 789 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:24,279 Speaker 1: misappropriated like two thousand euros, it would be a nationwide 790 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: scandal like um also in uh in like European countries, 791 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,359 Speaker 1: like you pay union dudes on a voluntary basis right 792 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: in the US legally since we're a close shop system, 793 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 1: like once you're at a union uh union workplace, your 794 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: dudes get taken, whether you know whether you're happy with 795 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,959 Speaker 1: the union or not. Now there are people will say 796 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,600 Speaker 1: that's really important because unions need every penny they can 797 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,480 Speaker 1: to fight where they have. But when unions have to 798 00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 1: fight for membership and make sure that their membership knows 799 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: that they're getting like what they're paying for. You get 800 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 1: a little bit more responsiveness. So I think that's another 801 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: thing that especially people are thinking about unions and thinking 802 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,480 Speaker 1: about joining a union are creating getting any of the workplace. 803 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: Just understand what a union is and how they work 804 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: and where your money is going to, and that if 805 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: you're unhappy with that, the best thing to do is 806 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,879 Speaker 1: to get involved with your union, to try and like 807 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,799 Speaker 1: get connected with your coworkers who have similar complaints and 808 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: change the union. Because there's a saying it's like any 809 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,840 Speaker 1: union is better than no union. That's not always true, 810 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:40,839 Speaker 1: but it generally is there there there's like a very 811 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 1: small chance that like you're like living in nine nine 812 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 1: China and like your union is like is controlled by 813 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: like a commodation of the K and T and like 814 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,399 Speaker 1: literally the Chinese heroin trade. But you know that that like, yeah, 815 00:48:54,440 --> 00:49:01,959 Speaker 1: that like doesn't like there there there are things where 816 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,920 Speaker 1: you'll have like they're my dad worked at a factory 817 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 1: and there was it was a teamster organized factory and 818 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: like some of the stewards were bullies and literally like 819 00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:12,719 Speaker 1: there were some people who were dealing drugs out of it, 820 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:20,000 Speaker 1: and they gave the the workers like try to bring 821 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,840 Speaker 1: in another union, and the and the management decided to 822 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,759 Speaker 1: offer to also try and desertify de certify the union 823 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,400 Speaker 1: at the same time, and the workers voted to desert. 824 00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:35,879 Speaker 1: And the thing is is that now that factory shut 825 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 1: down and gone. Um, And I guess, like the thing 826 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,680 Speaker 1: is is that you have to it's far better for 827 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,719 Speaker 1: workers to assert their rights within their union where they 828 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: have some modicum of democratic control over what's going on 829 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,080 Speaker 1: than it is to just throw up your hands and 830 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,200 Speaker 1: like there's and do nothing. Because if you do nothing, 831 00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,160 Speaker 1: the boss is always doing something. Yeah, Like that's the 832 00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 1: thing is, like management is always organizing. They're always coming 833 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:04,520 Speaker 1: up with ways to like to undermine the control of 834 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:09,680 Speaker 1: workers at work, to pitt people against each other. Um, 835 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,719 Speaker 1: we can get into it later, but like, uh, they want, 836 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: they'll use racism and those sorts of things to dole 837 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,120 Speaker 1: out favors or curry favoritism and like you know, pitt 838 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,480 Speaker 1: people against each other. So I think that it's important 839 00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 1: to just say that, like the union is going to 840 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: be your only effective way to push back. Well, the 841 00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,319 Speaker 1: union or collective action, because I guess I also want 842 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,839 Speaker 1: to say that there are times when organizing union isn't 843 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,280 Speaker 1: the best solution to solving your problem at work. Ultimately, 844 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,359 Speaker 1: this is all about how do you solve problems at 845 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,320 Speaker 1: work right? And they're sometimes when you can do collective 846 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:47,880 Speaker 1: action that is protected as you know as labor organizing, 847 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 1: but it's not done within a union and so and 848 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 1: because America is the really best of place and you 849 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,479 Speaker 1: have right to work states and places where like being 850 00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:01,280 Speaker 1: in a union is like literally illegal. Um sometimes putting 851 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 1: the time, you're like you can't get into a union 852 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:05,840 Speaker 1: and therefore you have to come up with other solutions. 853 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,680 Speaker 1: Or sometimes because the nature of a workplace, like getting 854 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,279 Speaker 1: a union is like it is very hard or like 855 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,400 Speaker 1: basically impossible, that doesn't mean that you can't organize. And 856 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,400 Speaker 1: I think that that's the thing that everyone needs to understand. 857 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,240 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of like boosterism of unions 858 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,759 Speaker 1: amongst younger workers because people just don't understand how they 859 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,680 Speaker 1: work or they haven't experienced in themselves. And I think 860 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,480 Speaker 1: that the main thing is is that you've got to 861 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:37,040 Speaker 1: be very careful with your time and understanding, like building 862 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 1: a union can take like ten years from the beginning 863 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,960 Speaker 1: of we're upset to now we have a collective bargaining agreement, 864 00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,920 Speaker 1: or now we have a collective bargaining agreement. It could 865 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:50,759 Speaker 1: be another five or ten years before you actually get 866 00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:52,600 Speaker 1: to the point where you're organized enough to go on strike. 867 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:59,239 Speaker 1: And people oftentimes think that that's like they look back 868 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,239 Speaker 1: at the history of things and they're like, oh, it's 869 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 1: so easy. But back then people were taking all they 870 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,240 Speaker 1: mean they it took them years to build the the 871 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,359 Speaker 1: US labor movement into what it was at its peak. 872 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,520 Speaker 1: It took decades, right, And I think that we are 873 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,320 Speaker 1: kind of used to this instant gratification kind of stuff. 874 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,040 Speaker 1: We have to understand that it's like, if you're going 875 00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:22,040 Speaker 1: to be in a workplace where you're there for enough 876 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,600 Speaker 1: time to build the trust and relationships and understanding of 877 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,680 Speaker 1: how the work workplace works and keep your job and 878 00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:31,920 Speaker 1: be someone that people don't look at as like a 879 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,759 Speaker 1: shirk or whatever. Not that I don't think that people 880 00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,480 Speaker 1: should you know, people should work as hard as they 881 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:43,280 Speaker 1: can and not any more harder than that, but whatever. Um, 882 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,080 Speaker 1: but I think that you know, I'm anti work, but 883 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,080 Speaker 1: you know that's the whole other thing. Unions are the 884 00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:49,640 Speaker 1: best way to limit the amount of work that you 885 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,520 Speaker 1: have to do um if you're gonna if you're going 886 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,839 Speaker 1: to uh, you know, work as a wage labor um. 887 00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,120 Speaker 1: But I will just say that it's like I think 888 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:03,600 Speaker 1: that people don't that. It's difficult sometimes to understand how 889 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,160 Speaker 1: much work goes into getting to the point of getting 890 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:10,000 Speaker 1: a union, but it's always worth putting the time in 891 00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,520 Speaker 1: to get there. And you may not win the first try, 892 00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,440 Speaker 1: but if you are, if if the conditions are right, 893 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:19,440 Speaker 1: and things like, you know, we make our history, but 894 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,080 Speaker 1: not in conditions of our choosing. Sometimes things don't work out, 895 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:28,880 Speaker 1: but not doing it is I think a it's detrimental 896 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,440 Speaker 1: to you and your co workers. And even times like 897 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,560 Speaker 1: I've talked with people who have been involved in campaigns 898 00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,720 Speaker 1: where they got fired but then all of a sudden, 899 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,080 Speaker 1: conditions improved afterwards, and they look at that as like, oh, ship, 900 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:44,000 Speaker 1: we didn't get our union, but everyone got raises and 901 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,960 Speaker 1: they change some things that work, and that's actually a victory. 902 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,200 Speaker 1: So you know, I think that I think of each 903 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 1: other as like collective building collective power, and the amount 904 00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,960 Speaker 1: of time it takes to do that is daunting, but 905 00:53:58,040 --> 00:53:59,319 Speaker 1: I think it's the sort of thing that we need 906 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:03,439 Speaker 1: to do if first serious about changing how we can 907 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,840 Speaker 1: actually like how our lives work and how much power 908 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,520 Speaker 1: we have outside of work, because unions are also places 909 00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,799 Speaker 1: where we do things that affect outside of our work 910 00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:30,560 Speaker 1: as well. I'm Colleen with Join me, the host of 911 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,640 Speaker 1: Eating Will Broke podcast While I eat a meal created 912 00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,680 Speaker 1: by self made entrepreneurs, influencers, and celebrities over a meal 913 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:39,880 Speaker 1: they once ate when they were broke. Today I have 914 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:44,480 Speaker 1: the lovely aj Crimson, the official Princess of compon Asia 915 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,520 Speaker 1: Kidding and Assia. This is the professor. We're here on 916 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,600 Speaker 1: Eating While Broke, and today I'm gonna break down my 917 00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,040 Speaker 1: meal that got me through a time when I was broken. 918 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,200 Speaker 1: Listen to Eating While Broke on the I Heart Radio app, 919 00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,680 Speaker 1: on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. 920 00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,479 Speaker 1: I'm Robert sex Reese, host of The Doctor sex Rees Show. 921 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,920 Speaker 1: And every episode I listened to people talk about their 922 00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,840 Speaker 1: sex and intimacy issues and yes, I despise every minute 923 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:14,480 Speaker 1: of it. And she she made mistakes too, she did 924 00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,959 Speaker 1: she kill everyone at her wedding. But hell is real. 925 00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,960 Speaker 1: We're all trapped here and there's nothing any of us 926 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,880 Speaker 1: can do about it. So join me. Won't you listen 927 00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,440 Speaker 1: to the Doctors Sex re Show every Tuesday on the 928 00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,640 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get 929 00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:40,760 Speaker 1: your podcast. UM, George Slade Uprising. You know, in Minneapolis, 930 00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,040 Speaker 1: there were nurses union nurses who walked out the door 931 00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:49,840 Speaker 1: um to support uh, you know, people who were uh 932 00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:54,800 Speaker 1: basically having an insurrection against like, you know, police violence 933 00:55:54,800 --> 00:56:02,160 Speaker 1: in in Minneapolis when the WHENVID pandemic hit off, year 934 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:06,120 Speaker 1: of everything going off, nurses nurses were going out and 935 00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,080 Speaker 1: confronting uh. Union nurses were going out and confronting anti 936 00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,799 Speaker 1: mass protesters. Like I was literally getting screamed at by 937 00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,279 Speaker 1: like some Looney Tunes doctor holding a banner that said 938 00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,800 Speaker 1: nurses are dying. Go home with like twenty other union nurses. 939 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 1: And we were the only people out there who are 940 00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:26,640 Speaker 1: like together, who are you know, immediately impacted by this stuff? 941 00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,759 Speaker 1: And UM, and I think it made a difference, Like 942 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,600 Speaker 1: I think it's important, and so I think that UM. 943 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,160 Speaker 1: And there's some idea called social unionism. So if you 944 00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,520 Speaker 1: get to the point where building a union and you're 945 00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:40,279 Speaker 1: making progress, and you get to that point where you 946 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,840 Speaker 1: have a union always be advocating for to the extent 947 00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:45,920 Speaker 1: that you can that your union is engaged in the 948 00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:50,880 Speaker 1: kind of UM like connecting with your community around your workplace, 949 00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:55,880 Speaker 1: figuring out the things that are impacting people's lives outside 950 00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: of unions, because I think that's another thing that UM 951 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,320 Speaker 1: For a long time, unions just ignored or let atrophy 952 00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,600 Speaker 1: because they didn't think it was their problem anymore. Was 953 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:09,360 Speaker 1: you know, mutual aid helped build the labor movement. You know, 954 00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:13,560 Speaker 1: workers would get would literally like in West Virginia and 955 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:19,560 Speaker 1: matuan uh they had uh company police throwing people out 956 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:24,280 Speaker 1: of their apartments who are on strike, and the there 957 00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,440 Speaker 1: were you know, all of a sudden, two thousand of 958 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,680 Speaker 1: your fellow workers showing up and throwing the police out 959 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,920 Speaker 1: of town and putting people's uh, you know, belongings back 960 00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,400 Speaker 1: in their house or you know. And I believe we're 961 00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,880 Speaker 1: getting back to that point where you know, teachers went 962 00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:43,040 Speaker 1: on striking West Virginia and the union and the teachers 963 00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 1: did everything they could to support their students while they 964 00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,919 Speaker 1: were out. Because like, I think there's this idea that 965 00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:57,240 Speaker 1: a lot of union workers at this point are you know, 966 00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:00,760 Speaker 1: everyone is like, you know, the American workforces so desperate 967 00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:04,360 Speaker 1: and so and they've just been pushed around so much 968 00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,480 Speaker 1: that you know, there was this idea for a time 969 00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:11,960 Speaker 1: like in Wisconsin, what was or what was the Scott 970 00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,720 Speaker 1: Walker was constant uprising just Elen, wasn't it? I think 971 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,960 Speaker 1: it was like right around occupy it was around there, 972 00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,880 Speaker 1: and like there was this idea that's like, oh, you're 973 00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,080 Speaker 1: a nurse, Oh you're a teacher, Like you should just 974 00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:26,520 Speaker 1: be happy that your job has some kind of meaning 975 00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:28,960 Speaker 1: to it, right, And it was a lot of like 976 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:34,600 Speaker 1: weird discourse around in the media and about like how 977 00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,840 Speaker 1: dare these people? I think that they deserve anything? And 978 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,160 Speaker 1: the thing is is that how can you, like, as 979 00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:44,800 Speaker 1: a nurse, how can I take care of my patients 980 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:51,280 Speaker 1: safely when I'm constantly having um like more and more 981 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,480 Speaker 1: work put on me, right, and that that immediately affects 982 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,320 Speaker 1: the people that I'm taken care of. So that when 983 00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,280 Speaker 1: when we went on strike in twenty nineteen, it was 984 00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:05,440 Speaker 1: around our safes laffing. UM. And if I've seen management 985 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:10,040 Speaker 1: make decisions about staffing that kill people, and I've seen 986 00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,720 Speaker 1: management make decisions that lead to my co workers getting injured, um, 987 00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:17,200 Speaker 1: I management made decisions that led to me getting uh 988 00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:21,360 Speaker 1: COVID and messed me up for a year. And uh 989 00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:25,040 Speaker 1: so when people in these kind of care worker roles, 990 00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,280 Speaker 1: which I think has become a more prominent part of 991 00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,960 Speaker 1: the US economy as people are getting older and they 992 00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:35,360 Speaker 1: need more like care work, home care workers, nursing home workers, 993 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:40,600 Speaker 1: hospital workers. UM. Parents don't can't rely on family the 994 00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,280 Speaker 1: way they used to help take care kids. School has 995 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:49,000 Speaker 1: become like this really important like uh institution for you know, 996 00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:53,880 Speaker 1: working class survival. UM that you can't do those jobs 997 00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,040 Speaker 1: as a worker if you don't have the resources. So 998 00:59:56,080 --> 01:00:00,000 Speaker 1: like our our children were at the Chicago Public School 999 01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:04,960 Speaker 1: and there that you know, the Chicago Teachers Union, which 1000 01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,840 Speaker 1: was taken over by the rank and file UM, I 1001 01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,360 Speaker 1: think in two thousand five or six by you know, 1002 01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:15,560 Speaker 1: a group of black women led by Karen Lewis. They 1003 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,120 Speaker 1: set up a group called like a rank and file 1004 01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:24,720 Speaker 1: caucus called the Caucus of Rank and File Educators or 1005 01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:28,120 Speaker 1: Radical Educators. CORES might be messing on that, but it's 1006 01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:34,000 Speaker 1: called CORE. They went out on striking and as a 1007 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, as just this was before my kids were 1008 01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:37,920 Speaker 1: old not to be in those schools. I was out 1009 01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,280 Speaker 1: there still taking them coffee donuts, right, because I knew 1010 01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,640 Speaker 1: that they were in there. Because things stuck. By the 1011 01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,320 Speaker 1: time my kids were old enough in nineteen for it 1012 01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:49,280 Speaker 1: to be a big thing and the teachers went on 1013 01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:52,760 Speaker 1: strike in Chicago, it had gotten so it's so bad 1014 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:58,760 Speaker 1: that Chicago teachers, like Chicago Public schools have the the 1015 01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:03,160 Speaker 1: lowest number of staff of two students of any school 1016 01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:09,040 Speaker 1: system in Illinois. It's not even like half right and um, 1017 01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:12,400 Speaker 1: And it's funny because the state have been constantly trying 1018 01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,080 Speaker 1: to erode the power of the union. They're making Chicago 1019 01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,320 Speaker 1: teachers like pay their for their own retirement basically in 1020 01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,800 Speaker 1: a way that no other like workers have to. Um. 1021 01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,080 Speaker 1: They were making it so that Chicago teachers could only 1022 01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:31,440 Speaker 1: go on strike. Over of the teachers voted to go 1023 01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:35,440 Speaker 1: on strike. Um. So when so what that does is 1024 01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:37,440 Speaker 1: there's kind of like a a little bit of a 1025 01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:41,960 Speaker 1: flip where oh, we have to make of you know, 1026 01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:44,960 Speaker 1: people agree to go on strike. Well, let's organize so 1027 01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:48,320 Speaker 1: much that we get people to agree to go on strike, 1028 01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,760 Speaker 1: and then how powerful is our strikes, our strikes going 1029 01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:53,840 Speaker 1: to be. We're literally like one of the things I 1030 01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,680 Speaker 1: do as a steward is I connect with all the 1031 01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:00,440 Speaker 1: different unions and at the University of Chicago at work 1032 01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:04,080 Speaker 1: through a labor council. We were going, as you know, 1033 01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,640 Speaker 1: university workers to all the picket lines of the public 1034 01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:11,120 Speaker 1: schools around our neighborhood and we're bringing out coffee, bringing 1035 01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:13,320 Speaker 1: out donuts, talking to people. Hey, I'm a nurse. We 1036 01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:15,680 Speaker 1: were on strike like six or like two or three 1037 01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:19,160 Speaker 1: months ago. What do you all need? Connecting with people? 1038 01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:23,040 Speaker 1: And then and then like at one point when the 1039 01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,720 Speaker 1: teachers were like, we're not getting what we want and 1040 01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:32,760 Speaker 1: this is LORI lightfoot is trash there, uh, we helped 1041 01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:37,000 Speaker 1: organize this mass march where multiple marches of teachers and 1042 01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:41,240 Speaker 1: school workers and we're all out in the streets dodging 1043 01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,240 Speaker 1: cop cars until we have this big convergence. And it 1044 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:46,760 Speaker 1: was really beautiful. Like we had like multiple people with 1045 01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:49,800 Speaker 1: like multiple banners and different columns, each one saying we 1046 01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:53,120 Speaker 1: will win, going through the streets of our neighborhood. UM 1047 01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:58,680 Speaker 1: and like messing up like the commercial traffic area in 1048 01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,520 Speaker 1: uh in our very bougie neighborhood and um. But that 1049 01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:03,320 Speaker 1: was happening all over the city and it's just like 1050 01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,920 Speaker 1: when you see that happen it's because we're literally in 1051 01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,080 Speaker 1: the support of the community for those strikes was so 1052 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:14,040 Speaker 1: overwhelming because people knew that. It's like these people, aren't it. 1053 01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:18,120 Speaker 1: I mean, like, first off, it's a hard job. There's 1054 01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:20,640 Speaker 1: no reason why anyone doing that job shouldn't have like 1055 01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:24,200 Speaker 1: a materially comfortable life. That's how stressful it is and 1056 01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:27,440 Speaker 1: how much work they do. And I really, like, I 1057 01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:29,600 Speaker 1: really need to emphasize this enough people. There's like this 1058 01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:31,880 Speaker 1: whole thing is like, oh, teachers don't work over the summer, Like, 1059 01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:36,680 Speaker 1: oh but no, no, Like their job sucks. They have 1060 01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:38,280 Speaker 1: to they have to deal these kids all day. And 1061 01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:39,840 Speaker 1: the other thing is like you know, the part of 1062 01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:40,960 Speaker 1: it that you don't see is they have to do 1063 01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:42,640 Speaker 1: all the lessed plans. They have to great all the stuff, 1064 01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:44,360 Speaker 1: have to do all this stuff like after the school 1065 01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,560 Speaker 1: day end, they have to do all this honestibly, all 1066 01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,360 Speaker 1: the time. This job is awful. It is extremely hard, 1067 01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:54,320 Speaker 1: and like they don't Yeah, the conditions are extremely bad. 1068 01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:58,280 Speaker 1: I'll never forget when I'll never forget when I ran 1069 01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:01,120 Speaker 1: into my seventh grade science teacher on the summer she 1070 01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:04,760 Speaker 1: was waiting tables at a local restaurant. You know, I 1071 01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:08,120 Speaker 1: mean and so I think that there's this assumption that like, uh, 1072 01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:12,080 Speaker 1: that especially care workers get some sort of you can't 1073 01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, you can't cash in fulfillment right or prestige 1074 01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:17,919 Speaker 1: or whatever that doesn't pay the rent, that doesn't put 1075 01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, groceries on your table um that sort of thing. 1076 01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,000 Speaker 1: And so, you know, I think we're beginning to see 1077 01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:27,920 Speaker 1: this thing resurgence. And it started with teachers and I 1078 01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:32,200 Speaker 1: know for and teachers and nurses have been out fighting 1079 01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:36,160 Speaker 1: like hell for the past like five years, and it's 1080 01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:40,040 Speaker 1: beginning to kind of like spark other kinds of organizing 1081 01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:44,080 Speaker 1: outside of outside of the care work areas, and a 1082 01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:45,760 Speaker 1: lot of this stuff was It's funny how it was 1083 01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:49,360 Speaker 1: kind of like predicted by occupy and like revolt of 1084 01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,560 Speaker 1: the carrying classes. Someone who wrote a really cool book 1085 01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:54,760 Speaker 1: that just came out, David Graber, who was talking about like, 1086 01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,840 Speaker 1: why is it that we're seeing all these people who 1087 01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:00,920 Speaker 1: are out in the streets like during occupy, who are 1088 01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:04,400 Speaker 1: like social workers and nurses and teachers and all this stuff. 1089 01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:08,200 Speaker 1: There there's something going on here, and I think that 1090 01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:14,000 Speaker 1: so you'll see places where organizing conditions are easier because 1091 01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:17,920 Speaker 1: the pressure on especially care workers right now is immense 1092 01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:20,200 Speaker 1: in a way that it isn't as immense other places. 1093 01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:24,320 Speaker 1: But look at for those like when you're thinking about 1094 01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:27,520 Speaker 1: unions and whether to do build a union at your 1095 01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:30,720 Speaker 1: workplace or do some sort of collective organizing your workplace, 1096 01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:35,240 Speaker 1: do you have the dynamics where you guys are can 1097 01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:40,680 Speaker 1: the boss shut down your uh, your your workplace and 1098 01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:44,040 Speaker 1: move it like ten miles without completely destroying their like 1099 01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:48,000 Speaker 1: their business, right And so you know, we've seen strikes 1100 01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:55,480 Speaker 1: happen in grocery stores, um and uh Massachusetts there was 1101 01:05:55,520 --> 01:06:00,680 Speaker 1: a really like uh, pretty well publicized grocery strike and 1102 01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:03,920 Speaker 1: apparently there was like internal documents got released to like 1103 01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:06,120 Speaker 1: shareholders about how that was like one of the most 1104 01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:07,520 Speaker 1: like it was like for a month in the winter 1105 01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:12,000 Speaker 1: or three weeks, and they said they lost like of 1106 01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:16,280 Speaker 1: customers refused across the picket line. I mean, and I 1107 01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:19,439 Speaker 1: think we're thinking it's like getting to the point where 1108 01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:21,360 Speaker 1: you can go on strike, it's a lot, it's a 1109 01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:23,000 Speaker 1: process and it takes a lot of work, and I 1110 01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:26,400 Speaker 1: think that people underestimate what that looks like. Hence we 1111 01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:32,000 Speaker 1: see hashtag general strike things all the time. Um, But 1112 01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:34,480 Speaker 1: like when you get there, I think that we're at 1113 01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:36,640 Speaker 1: a point now where people have a lot more sympathy 1114 01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:39,120 Speaker 1: for workers, and workers have become more visible in a 1115 01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:43,640 Speaker 1: way that they weren't before. Like the essential workers over 1116 01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:45,440 Speaker 1: the past year and a half have been the only 1117 01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:49,040 Speaker 1: workers that sometimes people will see, right, so you'll see 1118 01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:52,920 Speaker 1: things also like you have you know, Amazonians United, which 1119 01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:57,600 Speaker 1: is a union that's organizing, but they're trying to organize 1120 01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,320 Speaker 1: something called a solidarity union. So they're not you know, 1121 01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:02,240 Speaker 1: at least the ones here in Chicago, and I think 1122 01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:05,320 Speaker 1: some of them in New York. And this may be changing. 1123 01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:07,720 Speaker 1: Things are always shifting around, but for a long for 1124 01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:11,360 Speaker 1: a while, through like the pandemic, they were organizing on 1125 01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:16,520 Speaker 1: a like in contrast to the best sumer uh Amazon campaign. Sorry, 1126 01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:22,120 Speaker 1: there was a a business union tried to organize a 1127 01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:27,480 Speaker 1: union in Alabama, Investment Alabama at an Amazon warehouse, and 1128 01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:31,120 Speaker 1: there was a lot of like media attention to that. 1129 01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:35,200 Speaker 1: Democratic politicians were paying attention to it. Joe Biden said, 1130 01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,760 Speaker 1: I support the right of workers to choose to have 1131 01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:42,000 Speaker 1: the choice. Stabby union some really milk toast bullshit and 1132 01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:46,160 Speaker 1: a lot of celebrities showing up and what wasn't happening 1133 01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:49,400 Speaker 1: was you weren't seeing a lot of evidence that the 1134 01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:53,640 Speaker 1: workers themselves were very excited about the union, and it 1135 01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:58,840 Speaker 1: turned out that that campaign failed. UM, whereas workers at 1136 01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:01,680 Speaker 1: Amazonians united up here, like in Chicago, and granted it's 1137 01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,480 Speaker 1: a very different organizing environment in Illinois than it is 1138 01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:08,920 Speaker 1: in Alabama, UM, they haven't been focusing on getting contract. 1139 01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,120 Speaker 1: They've been focusing on getting work changes. Like they're like, 1140 01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:15,400 Speaker 1: we want to have water, like we need water breaks, 1141 01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:18,360 Speaker 1: and so they would they have these stand up meetings 1142 01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:21,400 Speaker 1: at the beginning of every shift, and they had coordinated 1143 01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:24,479 Speaker 1: where you have, you know, thirty of your coworkers all 1144 01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:28,200 Speaker 1: say we're not starting until we get water, and then 1145 01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,839 Speaker 1: management panics because they're not used to that kind of demand. 1146 01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:35,439 Speaker 1: They're used to We're going to have a campaign. Then 1147 01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:37,679 Speaker 1: we can you know, mess with votes and that sort 1148 01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:43,519 Speaker 1: of thing and make people afraid. Collective action overcomes fear, right, 1149 01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:47,839 Speaker 1: So when you have collective action, even through a regular 1150 01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:53,200 Speaker 1: like a more regular conventional union campaign, those collective actions 1151 01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:56,760 Speaker 1: are what leads to successful unions. So like UM, so 1152 01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:59,320 Speaker 1: you know, they'd say we aren't starting the shift until 1153 01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:01,240 Speaker 1: we get water, and then all of a sudden, a 1154 01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:04,960 Speaker 1: manager disappears and then comes back with palates full of water, right, 1155 01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:06,800 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, people are like, I'm gonna 1156 01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:09,200 Speaker 1: have a drink water before I start like all together. 1157 01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:11,120 Speaker 1: And then they go off and do their thing, and 1158 01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:14,679 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, things like that build the power 1159 01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,679 Speaker 1: of the union to the point where they shut down 1160 01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:21,719 Speaker 1: that warehouse. But then Amazonian United popped up in the 1161 01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:26,240 Speaker 1: three new warehouses that they stuff in Chicago. So it's 1162 01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:29,120 Speaker 1: like when you build that kind of collective power and 1163 01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:33,240 Speaker 1: people feel like this is how you get things, then 1164 01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:36,640 Speaker 1: it's hard to repress. Right. It's one thing where like 1165 01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,479 Speaker 1: we lost an election, why did we even bother? It's 1166 01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:42,760 Speaker 1: another thing where like, no, we wont like all this 1167 01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:44,559 Speaker 1: like this, that, and the other thing like we got 1168 01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:46,840 Speaker 1: you know, like our regular schedules fixed, We got like 1169 01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,800 Speaker 1: water on our ships. We got this. You know. That's 1170 01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:53,200 Speaker 1: what gets people into the mindset that they can change. 1171 01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:54,519 Speaker 1: And so I think this is the thing that a 1172 01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:57,160 Speaker 1: lot of people don't get. It's it's like, the difficult 1173 01:09:57,200 --> 01:09:59,960 Speaker 1: part isn't getting people to agree that things are fun 1174 01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:03,080 Speaker 1: up at your workplace. Most people understand that things are 1175 01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:06,599 Speaker 1: sucked up in their workplace. Difficult part isn't saying that, like, well, 1176 01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:09,599 Speaker 1: this is a solution, right. The difficult part is getting 1177 01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:13,120 Speaker 1: people to understand that collective action is the only way 1178 01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:17,160 Speaker 1: to solve the problems, right even within unionized workplaces. Getting 1179 01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:19,800 Speaker 1: your coworkers to understand that if we don't do this 1180 01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:23,760 Speaker 1: as a collective we will fail. And so like when 1181 01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:32,360 Speaker 1: there was a like the first successful private hospital union 1182 01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:39,640 Speaker 1: drive in North Carolina popped off early. Um, throughout that campaign, 1183 01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:45,040 Speaker 1: they were constantly like demonstrations of collective power. We're gonna 1184 01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:46,840 Speaker 1: do a vigil. How many people are gonn show up 1185 01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:48,920 Speaker 1: to the visual We're gonna all walk around stickers saying 1186 01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:53,680 Speaker 1: like safe staffing saves lives or like you know, um, 1187 01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:56,760 Speaker 1: patients over profits. That sort of stuff, and building that 1188 01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:01,120 Speaker 1: kind of collective power together is what it's you. Um, 1189 01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:05,519 Speaker 1: it's what gets you a successful Like that's what builds 1190 01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:09,599 Speaker 1: a union. Fundamentally, union is um, there's the legal thing 1191 01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:11,519 Speaker 1: and then there's the real thing. And the real thing 1192 01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:14,800 Speaker 1: is only as powerful as people are willing to fight 1193 01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:18,519 Speaker 1: for and build that kind of collective power together. When 1194 01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:20,240 Speaker 1: nurses were on straight and I talked a lot about 1195 01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:22,160 Speaker 1: nurses because I know a lot about nurses, but like 1196 01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,080 Speaker 1: you know, or like you know in um In, Iowa, 1197 01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:29,000 Speaker 1: when the John Deere strike happened, people were out on 1198 01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:31,040 Speaker 1: the picket lines and people were ready to get hit 1199 01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:34,479 Speaker 1: by cars to like stop scabs from coming like crossing 1200 01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:36,680 Speaker 1: the picket line. And if you're not willing to do 1201 01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:38,160 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And I'm not saying that you 1202 01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:39,800 Speaker 1: need to put your body on the line for things, 1203 01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:42,799 Speaker 1: but you do need to be willing to draw outside 1204 01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:45,680 Speaker 1: the lines. Right, there's the law and then there's what 1205 01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:48,519 Speaker 1: you can get people to do. And you will be 1206 01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:51,639 Speaker 1: surprised when people start moving. They move fast, and they 1207 01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:54,519 Speaker 1: get really riled up, like this, funk this, this is 1208 01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:58,160 Speaker 1: what we're gonna do. And sometimes unions try and like 1209 01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:02,360 Speaker 1: bottle that energy up um or you know, if you're 1210 01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:05,599 Speaker 1: in a good union, you use that energy to fix things. 1211 01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:09,320 Speaker 1: So I think that's kind of where land on all 1212 01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:12,880 Speaker 1: this stuff. It's like be aware of like the pitfalls 1213 01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:16,599 Speaker 1: of what organizing at work means. Everyone has the right 1214 01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,519 Speaker 1: to organize at work everywhere in this country. If you 1215 01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:23,000 Speaker 1: get fired for like for organizing, you can fight that 1216 01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:25,879 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Yeah, it is, it's federally protected, 1217 01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:27,920 Speaker 1: Like it's this is this is a federal government thing 1218 01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:29,479 Speaker 1: like you know, this is this is this is what 1219 01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:32,160 Speaker 1: we got in exchange for everything else is like like 1220 01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,439 Speaker 1: this is you know, like this this is what we 1221 01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:37,360 Speaker 1: got in exchange of putting our guns down. Is that like, yeah, 1222 01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:42,439 Speaker 1: the the the actual Feds will be like, no, you 1223 01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:47,320 Speaker 1: can't do this. Yeah, I mean, and sometimes that doesn't 1224 01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:52,880 Speaker 1: sound fold constellation and it doesn't always work. But and 1225 01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:54,120 Speaker 1: I guess this is the other thing is there are 1226 01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:56,640 Speaker 1: people who are like, this is how we're gonna, you know, 1227 01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:00,880 Speaker 1: we're gonna when socialism is everyone's any union. And I guess, 1228 01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:03,120 Speaker 1: like my take on it is is this is how 1229 01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:06,240 Speaker 1: we build all the networks and get the skills and 1230 01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:10,200 Speaker 1: all the necessary things to be prepared to do bigger 1231 01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:15,400 Speaker 1: stuff down the road. So when we when workers are 1232 01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:18,639 Speaker 1: talking to each other across like you know, at when Chicago, 1233 01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:21,600 Speaker 1: when Chicago teachers went on strike, they didn't just go 1234 01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:24,640 Speaker 1: on strike as the teachers. They also talked to the 1235 01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:26,439 Speaker 1: They lined up their strike to go out as the 1236 01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:29,439 Speaker 1: same as education like the school workers who are in 1237 01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:31,479 Speaker 1: s c I you, and they went out at the 1238 01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:36,200 Speaker 1: same time. Um in order to incre improve the power 1239 01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:38,360 Speaker 1: of the strike because the more workers who are out 1240 01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:43,120 Speaker 1: less able the bosses are to like like to undermine 1241 01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:46,160 Speaker 1: the boss either with people scabbing on each other or whatever. 1242 01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:48,720 Speaker 1: And I think it's just like and like that's the 1243 01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:51,720 Speaker 1: point of our labor council is Like when like the 1244 01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:55,320 Speaker 1: grad workers at Universe Chicago go on strike, we got 1245 01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:58,320 Speaker 1: teachers out or we got well, there were teachers from 1246 01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:01,120 Speaker 1: CTU out on those picket lines. There were nurses or 1247 01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:03,519 Speaker 1: a new on those picket lines, and we were doing 1248 01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:07,720 Speaker 1: everything we could to communicate to each other because like 1249 01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:09,880 Speaker 1: in my work, it doesn't matter that I'm a nurse 1250 01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,080 Speaker 1: and you're a secretary. We have the same boss. We 1251 01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:15,759 Speaker 1: have the same problems a lot of the times. And 1252 01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:20,599 Speaker 1: so I think people people want to do the thing, 1253 01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:23,040 Speaker 1: which is to all have the glorious general strike that 1254 01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:26,360 Speaker 1: like overthrows capitalism or whatever or fixes all the problems 1255 01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:30,400 Speaker 1: that your work. But you know, starting everyone forgets all 1256 01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:33,640 Speaker 1: the necessary intermediate steps to get to that point. And 1257 01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:35,920 Speaker 1: sometimes it means just get the union and in the 1258 01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:38,320 Speaker 1: door in the first place, because like at a campaign 1259 01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:40,960 Speaker 1: I was a part of here in Chicago where my 1260 01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:44,320 Speaker 1: Universe Chicago bought a non union hospital that was out 1261 01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:47,400 Speaker 1: in the community. Just getting in there, they were able 1262 01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:52,160 Speaker 1: to expose like basically an entire hospital wide scheme of 1263 01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:58,360 Speaker 1: like racial racist like practices around raises and compensation. And 1264 01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:01,400 Speaker 1: that is like that first step and then fixing that 1265 01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:04,000 Speaker 1: right because you don't want to have like white worse 1266 01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:08,120 Speaker 1: nurses making more than black nurses and black more than 1267 01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:12,400 Speaker 1: like did immigrant nurses like Filipino or like Mexican nurses. 1268 01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:15,439 Speaker 1: Get everyone on the same page so that you're fighting 1269 01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:18,840 Speaker 1: together instead of fighting each other. And you know, those 1270 01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:21,320 Speaker 1: are those first steps that you take. And then and 1271 01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:24,400 Speaker 1: then you start reaching out to people on other other 1272 01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:29,479 Speaker 1: workplaces or other work areas and build that kind of 1273 01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:32,720 Speaker 1: militancy across unions so that you can support each other. 1274 01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:35,840 Speaker 1: So maybe a secondary strike is illegal right now, but 1275 01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:38,840 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that you don't have, you know, teamsters 1276 01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:41,840 Speaker 1: who won't cross the picket line, right you know, how 1277 01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:44,080 Speaker 1: do you go out and make it or you can 1278 01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:49,440 Speaker 1: build that solidarity so that like in Buffalo and the UM, 1279 01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:52,040 Speaker 1: the c w A nurses went on strike and they 1280 01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:56,080 Speaker 1: want pretty impressive things around staffing ratios. They literally had 1281 01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:59,640 Speaker 1: other unions going out and picketing board members of their 1282 01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:06,040 Speaker 1: hospital businesses and like getting really really like aggressive with 1283 01:16:06,080 --> 01:16:09,240 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. So I think that I think 1284 01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:13,040 Speaker 1: that people need to just big takeaway is it's the 1285 01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:15,880 Speaker 1: biggest barrier to any of this stuff, is just getting 1286 01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:20,360 Speaker 1: people to believe that collective action is possible and they 1287 01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:23,559 Speaker 1: can get you wins. And then making sure that you 1288 01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:28,120 Speaker 1: take your time and be patient and understand that there's 1289 01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:31,320 Speaker 1: going to be losses. But in the grand scheme of things, 1290 01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:38,360 Speaker 1: don't don't don't mistake what looks like a setback when 1291 01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:41,240 Speaker 1: it's actually a victory for like a victory, like for 1292 01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:45,400 Speaker 1: a real like a defeat and um, and talk with 1293 01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:47,920 Speaker 1: people like that's what they hate that, Like, bosses hate 1294 01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:49,760 Speaker 1: it when we're talking with each other and talk to 1295 01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:51,519 Speaker 1: people you're not comfortable with. That's the That's the other 1296 01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:54,760 Speaker 1: thing is that people are very nervous to talk to people. 1297 01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:56,960 Speaker 1: Like It's always funny when you run into people who 1298 01:16:56,960 --> 01:17:01,040 Speaker 1: are ra ra like unions, ra ra like socialism, YadA, YadA, YadA, 1299 01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:03,760 Speaker 1: and they don't talk to their co workers, right, and 1300 01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:05,679 Speaker 1: your co workers are the people you're gonna be around 1301 01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:08,519 Speaker 1: for maybe some years, and that's where you spend a 1302 01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:10,240 Speaker 1: huge chunk of your time and like, but you don't 1303 01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:14,320 Speaker 1: know what's going on. They're like, Oh, they're all hostile. 1304 01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:15,680 Speaker 1: They don't want to know anything, they don't want to 1305 01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:19,679 Speaker 1: do anything. Funny thing is is that oftentimes the most 1306 01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:22,840 Speaker 1: people who seem very skeptical and anti union can be 1307 01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:25,800 Speaker 1: flipped and sometimes those people become the best, like the 1308 01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,720 Speaker 1: most dedicated people to the union. It also means that 1309 01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:30,360 Speaker 1: you're going to talk to people you disagree with. Like 1310 01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:32,720 Speaker 1: there was a Trump dude who was on like the 1311 01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:35,639 Speaker 1: bargaining committee for the like our last strike. He fucking 1312 01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:37,400 Speaker 1: loved that thing. He was like, we're going on strike, 1313 01:17:38,439 --> 01:17:40,800 Speaker 1: but you know, it's also union full of black women, 1314 01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:42,800 Speaker 1: and he shut the funk up when you know it 1315 01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:45,120 Speaker 1: wasn't like, you know, being racist and ship, but you 1316 01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:47,040 Speaker 1: know you're gonna be with those people. And part of 1317 01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:48,840 Speaker 1: the thing is that it's about how we're all moving 1318 01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:52,840 Speaker 1: together rather than making sure everyone is on the same 1319 01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:55,400 Speaker 1: page for every single thing, because the biggest thing is 1320 01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:59,880 Speaker 1: the collective action and building that collective power and hopefully 1321 01:17:59,880 --> 01:18:05,920 Speaker 1: the collective powers. Hopefully the collective power outweighs. It's if 1322 01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:10,679 Speaker 1: you stand firm on principles like anti racism and fighting 1323 01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:14,120 Speaker 1: against discrimination and misogyny, that sort of thing. It actually 1324 01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:16,360 Speaker 1: builds the power of the union. I think that's the 1325 01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:18,120 Speaker 1: other things that people are like, Oh, I don't you know, 1326 01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:21,519 Speaker 1: like you know, working class people are all racist or 1327 01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:23,400 Speaker 1: reactionary or whatever. So I'm going to do that And 1328 01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:25,639 Speaker 1: that's how I'm gonna get that's my in. And it's like, 1329 01:18:26,280 --> 01:18:27,640 Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of people who like, 1330 01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:30,559 Speaker 1: they really don't like, you know, they don't like being 1331 01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:34,879 Speaker 1: around loud, racist assholes or people who you know, say slurs, 1332 01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:38,000 Speaker 1: like especially if it's like I mean, you can make 1333 01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:41,040 Speaker 1: the arguments like this is that's their way of dividing us. 1334 01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:45,800 Speaker 1: Our goal is to be together. And historically speaking, the 1335 01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:49,519 Speaker 1: one thing that's done the most too fight working class 1336 01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:54,559 Speaker 1: racism is union organizing. Ye. So, And I think also, 1337 01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:59,120 Speaker 1: like you know, in terms of like building something that's 1338 01:18:59,160 --> 01:19:03,360 Speaker 1: actually durable and powerful on top of sort of just 1339 01:19:03,439 --> 01:19:05,160 Speaker 1: the division. I mean, you know, even when it becomes 1340 01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:08,840 Speaker 1: stuff like transphobia, right, it's like, you know, if if 1341 01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:14,000 Speaker 1: you can convince people to fight like first, like fight 1342 01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:15,720 Speaker 1: for the person next to them, right, you know, I 1343 01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:16,880 Speaker 1: mean this is this is the thing that people like 1344 01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:20,439 Speaker 1: said a lot during the during the brainding campaign, but 1345 01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:24,200 Speaker 1: it was like you know, if people like, yeah, like 1346 01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:26,920 Speaker 1: if you can get someone to uh fight, like fight 1347 01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:29,320 Speaker 1: for the person next to you in a concrete way 1348 01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:31,400 Speaker 1: in the workplace in a way that's actually real for 1349 01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:35,200 Speaker 1: something that doesn't directly affect them. You the you know 1350 01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:38,679 Speaker 1: a a it's just like the the amount of power 1351 01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:44,240 Speaker 1: that you've built there is incredible. And then be also, Okay, 1352 01:19:44,280 --> 01:19:46,200 Speaker 1: I forgot where I was going with that, Daniel, please 1353 01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:48,160 Speaker 1: cut that. Hold on, hold on, I can kind of 1354 01:19:48,160 --> 01:19:51,240 Speaker 1: build off, but we just say this. My personal experience 1355 01:19:51,439 --> 01:19:56,479 Speaker 1: is that queer women run the labor movement and that 1356 01:19:56,800 --> 01:20:00,479 Speaker 1: like and that if you think that people who have 1357 01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:03,240 Speaker 1: been bullied from the day they like stepped into like 1358 01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:06,479 Speaker 1: a into a kindergarten aren't going to be the people 1359 01:20:06,479 --> 01:20:11,559 Speaker 1: who are most equipped to fight bullshit, bullying from a 1360 01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:15,240 Speaker 1: boss or justice or bullshit you're fucking like, like, just 1361 01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:17,840 Speaker 1: get the funk out because you haven't been in a 1362 01:20:17,960 --> 01:20:20,240 Speaker 1: union and you don't know what you know, I mean, 1363 01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:25,800 Speaker 1: you like the like people. Unions are at their best 1364 01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:29,519 Speaker 1: when they incorporate, you know, all, like when they are 1365 01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:32,479 Speaker 1: fighting for everybody, because what a boss can get away 1366 01:20:32,520 --> 01:20:35,559 Speaker 1: with with the weakest person, that's what they'll do to 1367 01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:37,720 Speaker 1: all of us if they get the chance. And so 1368 01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:40,160 Speaker 1: I think that there's this idea that's like, oh, we're 1369 01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:43,040 Speaker 1: going to set we're not going to we're going to 1370 01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:45,760 Speaker 1: ignore this or that sort of thing. It's like, you know, 1371 01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:49,360 Speaker 1: that's when people like, you know, people will turn away 1372 01:20:49,439 --> 01:20:51,639 Speaker 1: from unions as they feel like they're not being listened 1373 01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:53,679 Speaker 1: to or taken seriously. And you don't know what people's 1374 01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:56,519 Speaker 1: like identities are just because you see how they look. 1375 01:20:56,720 --> 01:20:59,880 Speaker 1: And so I think that it's real important for us 1376 01:20:59,920 --> 01:21:02,160 Speaker 1: to understand that if we're going to fight these fights, 1377 01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:05,479 Speaker 1: we need to do so with the understanding that it's everybody, 1378 01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:09,759 Speaker 1: and that the working class is a giant, multi racial 1379 01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:13,680 Speaker 1: conglomeration of every identity in this country. Um, and that 1380 01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:17,720 Speaker 1: the more marginal your identity is, the more useful having 1381 01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:21,160 Speaker 1: a union is to like solving your problems. Like I said, 1382 01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:25,960 Speaker 1: like racist racist compensation practices, there was no way that 1383 01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:28,200 Speaker 1: was going to get fixed, Like it wasn't even uncovered. 1384 01:21:28,240 --> 01:21:30,599 Speaker 1: People didn't understand it was happening until like the union 1385 01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:33,000 Speaker 1: got in. Doesn't mean there are other ways to fix things, 1386 01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:35,240 Speaker 1: but it's one of the one of the most powerful 1387 01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:38,680 Speaker 1: ways to fix things. I think that people just like 1388 01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:42,800 Speaker 1: don't understand because they don't have experience. Because they don't 1389 01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:46,640 Speaker 1: have an experience, they end up with they end up 1390 01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:49,400 Speaker 1: with misconceptions about what they're going to get into, and 1391 01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:51,840 Speaker 1: then they get disappointed. And I think the reality, I mean, 1392 01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:54,760 Speaker 1: I think that the reality is not as bad as 1393 01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:57,800 Speaker 1: sometimes it seems. But also you gotta go into all 1394 01:21:57,840 --> 01:22:01,240 Speaker 1: this ship with open eyes. And I think of there's 1395 01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:03,439 Speaker 1: and that's the other thing one of the fun things. 1396 01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:05,200 Speaker 1: Maybe this will make it into the podcast. I don't know, 1397 01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:07,800 Speaker 1: but um, one of the fun things is always like 1398 01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:11,120 Speaker 1: hanging out with like if you like every workplace has 1399 01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:14,800 Speaker 1: like its lefties just about, and like hanging out with 1400 01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:19,240 Speaker 1: the lefties who just can't get their brains wrapped around 1401 01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:21,519 Speaker 1: the ship that you need to have a union. I 1402 01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:23,479 Speaker 1: think that there's like this idea that's like, oh, I'm 1403 01:22:23,479 --> 01:22:26,040 Speaker 1: gonna talk to my friend. They're like they're like they 1404 01:22:26,120 --> 01:22:28,320 Speaker 1: say they're a communists, so that the and then that 1405 01:22:28,479 --> 01:22:32,439 Speaker 1: all those people do not always but they're they're sitting there. 1406 01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:34,880 Speaker 1: It's like talking a bunch of ship about like the union. 1407 01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:36,439 Speaker 1: They're a bunch of sellouts is or that, and it's 1408 01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:38,479 Speaker 1: like literally it's the only thing you're gonna do to 1409 01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:41,439 Speaker 1: get your like to fix the problem, and you're just like, 1410 01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:43,040 Speaker 1: we're just trying to get this problem fixed. Can we 1411 01:22:43,040 --> 01:22:45,360 Speaker 1: just set aside what you think needs to happen like 1412 01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:48,160 Speaker 1: that you guys talked about it. You're like Spartacus leak 1413 01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:51,840 Speaker 1: meeting or whatever, like, oh, this isn't a real strike, 1414 01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:54,439 Speaker 1: Like we're not going out until like for like you know, 1415 01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:57,040 Speaker 1: three months. And it's like, you know, it's like the 1416 01:22:57,120 --> 01:23:02,439 Speaker 1: sort of thing where um sometimes or oftentimes, And I 1417 01:23:02,439 --> 01:23:04,960 Speaker 1: think it's because a lot of people kind of pick 1418 01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:07,840 Speaker 1: up their politics almost like an aesthetic as opposed to 1419 01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:10,760 Speaker 1: like a thing that like is about like fixing the 1420 01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:15,880 Speaker 1: problems in their lives. And sometimes even I'm like, you know, 1421 01:23:16,040 --> 01:23:18,120 Speaker 1: like this is the problem that I face. Is like 1422 01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:22,080 Speaker 1: like shit is real like for a lot of people. 1423 01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:24,240 Speaker 1: And you can sit there and talk about this or that, 1424 01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:28,519 Speaker 1: and like you're you know, you think that things. You know, 1425 01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:31,320 Speaker 1: you've got this perfect ideal vision of what things should be, 1426 01:23:31,360 --> 01:23:33,680 Speaker 1: and then you've got this kind of imperfect thing in 1427 01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:37,160 Speaker 1: front of you that is, even though it's imperfect, it's 1428 01:23:37,160 --> 01:23:39,439 Speaker 1: basically what you've got. And so it's like you've got 1429 01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:41,800 Speaker 1: to kind of you've got to work with what you 1430 01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:44,080 Speaker 1: have and fix it up and make it the best 1431 01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:46,919 Speaker 1: that you think it can be. Um, But also understand 1432 01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:49,439 Speaker 1: because it's an organization full of people, that it's not 1433 01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:51,880 Speaker 1: going to be perfect every time. And yeah, maybe your 1434 01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:54,040 Speaker 1: union is going to do some liberal ship you know, 1435 01:23:54,160 --> 01:23:58,440 Speaker 1: and you're gonna and that's gonna annoy you. But you know, like, um, 1436 01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:00,200 Speaker 1: those people are still going to show up on the 1437 01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:03,960 Speaker 1: picket line if you're like, if you're organized and you're good, 1438 01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:07,000 Speaker 1: and like, you know, that's it's not the end of 1439 01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:10,479 Speaker 1: the world that your union isn't perfect. Um, but you've 1440 01:24:10,479 --> 01:24:12,160 Speaker 1: got to do everything you can to do your best 1441 01:24:12,200 --> 01:24:15,040 Speaker 1: to make it better because if you don't, then then 1442 01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:17,599 Speaker 1: liberals will do whatever they're gonna do, or conservatives will 1443 01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:19,720 Speaker 1: do whatever they're gonna do, and then they will like 1444 01:24:20,120 --> 01:24:23,080 Speaker 1: furtter away this thing. Like you can destroy a union 1445 01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:27,800 Speaker 1: if you aren't engaged. Like a union can be destroyed 1446 01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:30,840 Speaker 1: by people who think that you know, they're just like 1447 01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:32,960 Speaker 1: I just want to get my rays and like go home, 1448 01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:35,479 Speaker 1: and like, you know, if people's main concern is like 1449 01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:40,080 Speaker 1: their healthcare or like you know, that hour of prep 1450 01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:42,360 Speaker 1: time before they start their shift, or whatever, should you 1451 01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:46,280 Speaker 1: start their school day or whatever. Um. You know, a 1452 01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:48,960 Speaker 1: union can like dissolve out from underneath you and people 1453 01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:50,720 Speaker 1: are like, why is no one showing up to this thing? 1454 01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:54,080 Speaker 1: It's because you didn't talk to people and kind of 1455 01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:55,559 Speaker 1: what it is. I think that's the other thing. It's 1456 01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:57,360 Speaker 1: like listen, Like there's this idea that you're gonna get 1457 01:24:57,439 --> 01:24:59,200 Speaker 1: up and give a big speech and get everyone really 1458 01:24:59,240 --> 01:25:02,160 Speaker 1: excited about your about like being in a union. But 1459 01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:04,720 Speaker 1: the main thing is listening to people and listening to 1460 01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:07,080 Speaker 1: people who are critics. You know, your co workers who 1461 01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:10,320 Speaker 1: have complaints aren't like people that you should ignore. Those 1462 01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:12,080 Speaker 1: are people who need to listen to because those are 1463 01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:16,040 Speaker 1: people who they've got I mean, everyone's got legitimate problems 1464 01:25:16,080 --> 01:25:19,240 Speaker 1: with how you know work is happening. And like just 1465 01:25:19,280 --> 01:25:22,519 Speaker 1: because someone's like, you know, union is like, you know, trash, 1466 01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:25,519 Speaker 1: Like then find out why they think it's trash and 1467 01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:27,280 Speaker 1: then try and be like I want to try and 1468 01:25:27,320 --> 01:25:28,920 Speaker 1: fix out what can we do to fix it together? 1469 01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:33,240 Speaker 1: That sort of thing. I remember when when I was working, 1470 01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:37,200 Speaker 1: so I worked at like maintenance and a county facility 1471 01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:40,640 Speaker 1: for a while, and you know, so I was like 1472 01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:42,599 Speaker 1: a like I was like I was like a summer 1473 01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:44,920 Speaker 1: higher basically, and so would we We weren't in the union, 1474 01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:47,160 Speaker 1: but like everyone we were working for was in the union, 1475 01:25:47,200 --> 01:25:49,360 Speaker 1: and they all like, you know, these are old ex 1476 01:25:49,360 --> 01:25:55,200 Speaker 1: construction worker guys and you know, like they're in the union. 1477 01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:57,760 Speaker 1: But like I remember that we show these conversations that 1478 01:25:57,800 --> 01:25:59,840 Speaker 1: were like, okay, so we have a union meeting this week, 1479 01:26:00,080 --> 01:26:01,840 Speaker 1: like do you want to be the person who tries 1480 01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:03,519 Speaker 1: to talk about raising wages? And it was like everyone 1481 01:26:03,640 --> 01:26:06,840 Speaker 1: was just like no, And you know, people you know, 1482 01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:08,680 Speaker 1: like these guys are like very right wing and they 1483 01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:10,280 Speaker 1: were just sort of like piste off all the time. 1484 01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:11,840 Speaker 1: But it was interesting because the thing they were piste 1485 01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:16,040 Speaker 1: off all the time about was that, like, you know, 1486 01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:20,160 Speaker 1: their union didn't do anything like their union like they 1487 01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:22,280 Speaker 1: they they're they they're like they were They were basically 1488 01:26:22,280 --> 01:26:26,400 Speaker 1: constantly annoyed that like the union didn't like the the 1489 01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:28,680 Speaker 1: the union wasn't fighting for pay raises, uson wasn't sort 1490 01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:31,240 Speaker 1: of fighting. And I think that was, you know, an 1491 01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:34,880 Speaker 1: example of how this stuff sort of just fails if 1492 01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:38,120 Speaker 1: if people aren't like people don't feel like they can 1493 01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:43,160 Speaker 1: actually do something like itself. I mean, and they call 1494 01:26:43,240 --> 01:26:46,640 Speaker 1: it service unionism. There's this idea that like um or 1495 01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:49,439 Speaker 1: like like that a business union's job is to kind 1496 01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:52,280 Speaker 1: of serve you and you kind of like they do 1497 01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:55,240 Speaker 1: all the work. Like one of the complaints that some 1498 01:26:55,439 --> 01:26:58,439 Speaker 1: people who are not big fans of our union and 1499 01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:02,040 Speaker 1: our hospital is that, like, oh well, other other unions 1500 01:27:02,080 --> 01:27:07,720 Speaker 1: have lawyers negotiate the contract for you. And when we negotiate, 1501 01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:10,840 Speaker 1: we have a room full of nurses who are doing 1502 01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:14,880 Speaker 1: the who are doing the negotiations, and the goal is 1503 01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:18,439 Speaker 1: to have it be as transparent as possible. And like 1504 01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:21,880 Speaker 1: the idea that you're going to hand over negotiations to 1505 01:27:22,080 --> 01:27:26,200 Speaker 1: a lawyer and somehow get a better deal than than 1506 01:27:26,520 --> 01:27:30,360 Speaker 1: a room full of the actual workers. And it's funny 1507 01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:33,400 Speaker 1: because we have our bargaining team and then like will 1508 01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:36,080 Speaker 1: periodically do something called open bargaining because it's the thing 1509 01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:38,120 Speaker 1: that bosses hate. It's like they want to make a 1510 01:27:38,160 --> 01:27:42,040 Speaker 1: deal like with a door shut right, Um, But there's 1511 01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:44,599 Speaker 1: no reason why a union has to do that. Like, 1512 01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:47,360 Speaker 1: you can invite whoever you want to your bargaining. You 1513 01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:50,160 Speaker 1: can invite community members to your bargaining if you feel 1514 01:27:50,160 --> 01:27:53,880 Speaker 1: like you're man it could because management behind closed doors 1515 01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:56,320 Speaker 1: will say all kinds of things, and you know, they'll 1516 01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:59,080 Speaker 1: they'll trash talk everyone involved, and they'll you know, and 1517 01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:03,840 Speaker 1: they will make absurd demands about you know, it's like, oh, 1518 01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:05,439 Speaker 1: you're all gonna take a pay cut, you know, on 1519 01:28:05,520 --> 01:28:08,640 Speaker 1: this contract, that sort of thing, and they hate it. 1520 01:28:08,760 --> 01:28:12,160 Speaker 1: They absolutely hate it when like workers actually show up 1521 01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:19,599 Speaker 1: to these things. And so, um, I think that understanding that, Like, 1522 01:28:21,080 --> 01:28:23,960 Speaker 1: I think there's this idea that like some people are 1523 01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:26,360 Speaker 1: big on like we have to be kind of like 1524 01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:30,400 Speaker 1: secretive to like get the best deal, and like we 1525 01:28:30,439 --> 01:28:33,799 Speaker 1: shouldn't be like we shouldn't be transparent with everyone about 1526 01:28:33,840 --> 01:28:36,759 Speaker 1: what's going on because that's how like because then they'll 1527 01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:39,760 Speaker 1: figure out some way to counter us. But in my experience, 1528 01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:44,840 Speaker 1: my understanding is that the more transparent your union is, 1529 01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:50,680 Speaker 1: the more involved people get, and the more able people are, 1530 01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:52,280 Speaker 1: the more willing people are to put their time and 1531 01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:54,200 Speaker 1: energy into it. Because that's what comes down to is 1532 01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:56,160 Speaker 1: like people out to like everyone's working and busy and 1533 01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:59,640 Speaker 1: their life life is hard and sucks, and so like 1534 01:28:59,720 --> 01:29:02,400 Speaker 1: do you have time to like dedicate to show up 1535 01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:05,320 Speaker 1: to like talk to like if you why would you 1536 01:29:05,360 --> 01:29:07,559 Speaker 1: go to a union meeting? If when you raise the 1537 01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:10,920 Speaker 1: concern like we want higher wages, and like the union 1538 01:29:11,280 --> 01:29:15,320 Speaker 1: like staffer doesn't care if you get higher wages because 1539 01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:17,760 Speaker 1: they're like while we're getting our union dudes, and like 1540 01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:21,080 Speaker 1: what what then do we care? Right? That's like a 1541 01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:23,840 Speaker 1: huge problem. And the part of the thing is that 1542 01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:26,439 Speaker 1: those problems don't get solved if they if they exist, 1543 01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:28,960 Speaker 1: because they that definitely exists in some muni and a 1544 01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:33,000 Speaker 1: lot of unions, more unions than uh than not um, 1545 01:29:33,040 --> 01:29:37,640 Speaker 1: if the workers don't get organized together, Like we just 1546 01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:46,040 Speaker 1: saw an election within the Teamsters International where uh the 1547 01:29:46,120 --> 01:29:50,240 Speaker 1: halfa uh don't Jimmy Haffa Jr. One of the half 1548 01:29:50,360 --> 01:29:53,439 Speaker 1: a kids, was like president of the union and was 1549 01:29:53,479 --> 01:29:58,040 Speaker 1: this like not doing a great job and um, and 1550 01:29:58,160 --> 01:30:00,760 Speaker 1: like there was a rank and file like push to 1551 01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:04,479 Speaker 1: get that guy uh unelected, you know, and put it 1552 01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:07,200 Speaker 1: replaced with a rank and file worker who wants to 1553 01:30:07,240 --> 01:30:10,559 Speaker 1: put actual time and resources into organizing you know. Like 1554 01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:14,320 Speaker 1: there's nothing sadder than a than like watching a union 1555 01:30:14,360 --> 01:30:18,360 Speaker 1: campaign fail because the union clearly is phoning it in. 1556 01:30:18,920 --> 01:30:22,200 Speaker 1: Like that's happened. I've seen it happen not inside my union, 1557 01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:26,400 Speaker 1: but in other unions and uh, and I mean, like 1558 01:30:26,720 --> 01:30:29,320 Speaker 1: at my workplace, there's several unions and I've seen I've 1559 01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:32,840 Speaker 1: seen a failed campaign and it's like obvious, like there's 1560 01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:35,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not I don't co sign everything that 1561 01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:38,880 Speaker 1: someone like Jaye mccavalary. I think that's alway share mcavleary 1562 01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:42,439 Speaker 1: has to say. She wrote like no shortcuts. Um, I 1563 01:30:42,479 --> 01:30:44,120 Speaker 1: don't sign off on everything she has to say, but 1564 01:30:44,160 --> 01:30:46,200 Speaker 1: she has some really insightful things. It's like if you're 1565 01:30:46,240 --> 01:30:50,360 Speaker 1: not organizing to win, like you'll fail, and like you 1566 01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:52,519 Speaker 1: have to take this so seriously. And that's where like 1567 01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:55,080 Speaker 1: I'll say that, like, if you've got a choice between 1568 01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put time into a political political campaign versus 1569 01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:01,720 Speaker 1: a union campaign, You're going to get way more bang 1570 01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:03,760 Speaker 1: for your buck. You're gonna get so much more experience. 1571 01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:07,680 Speaker 1: You're gonna get like a durable organization that's going to 1572 01:31:07,800 --> 01:31:10,080 Speaker 1: be around for years if you put that time into 1573 01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:16,880 Speaker 1: a union campaign. Because like, imagine winning an election, right, um, 1574 01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:20,360 Speaker 1: except the politician you're running against is the incumbent and 1575 01:31:20,600 --> 01:31:24,759 Speaker 1: they can basically drag every one of their constituents into 1576 01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:27,840 Speaker 1: like a meeting and tell them how awful you are 1577 01:31:27,960 --> 01:31:30,120 Speaker 1: all the time, and lie and say whatever they want, 1578 01:31:30,920 --> 01:31:33,439 Speaker 1: and then they can, you know, do all kinds of 1579 01:31:33,479 --> 01:31:37,200 Speaker 1: tricks to like basically dismantle your campaign. So I guess, 1580 01:31:37,200 --> 01:31:39,120 Speaker 1: like the thing that I would say is that like 1581 01:31:39,160 --> 01:31:41,920 Speaker 1: if you if you do it the right way and 1582 01:31:42,040 --> 01:31:44,439 Speaker 1: you actually win one of those campaigns, you're gonna come 1583 01:31:44,439 --> 01:31:47,000 Speaker 1: out way ahead in sort of understanding. Like you have 1584 01:31:47,080 --> 01:31:48,960 Speaker 1: to talk to people, you have to be super organized, 1585 01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:51,320 Speaker 1: you have to know what people's issues are in their 1586 01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:56,000 Speaker 1: different targeting units. UM. You have to find people like 1587 01:31:56,160 --> 01:31:59,040 Speaker 1: part of like it's successful campaigns. I've been part of 1588 01:31:59,400 --> 01:32:02,320 Speaker 1: literally going on a search to go find like the 1589 01:32:02,760 --> 01:32:05,559 Speaker 1: people that need to be like signing cards and stuff. 1590 01:32:06,479 --> 01:32:08,559 Speaker 1: And you just have to be a very good listener, 1591 01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:10,840 Speaker 1: ready to talk and listen and hear what people have 1592 01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:16,080 Speaker 1: to say. Um, and then turn that um information into knowledge, 1593 01:32:16,840 --> 01:32:22,360 Speaker 1: knowledge and power UM and UM. I think that if 1594 01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:25,719 Speaker 1: you pull it off, you have done something substantially harder 1595 01:32:25,760 --> 01:32:28,679 Speaker 1: than say like winning a school board election or something 1596 01:32:28,720 --> 01:32:31,760 Speaker 1: like that. I mean, it's it's it really is. It's 1597 01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:35,160 Speaker 1: like taking like those kind of skills that you would 1598 01:32:35,240 --> 01:32:38,200 Speaker 1: use to like win some sort of small municipal election, 1599 01:32:38,360 --> 01:32:41,360 Speaker 1: and it's like exponentially more hard because the rules are 1600 01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:46,080 Speaker 1: just so tilted against you winning. So if you are 1601 01:32:46,120 --> 01:32:49,559 Speaker 1: serious about it, if you're serious about changing the world, 1602 01:32:49,680 --> 01:32:52,839 Speaker 1: if you can't like someone, Yeah, I think Murray Buckschen 1603 01:32:52,920 --> 01:32:55,360 Speaker 1: once said, if you can't run for dog catcher, you 1604 01:32:55,479 --> 01:32:59,360 Speaker 1: probably shouldn't be talking about revolution, you know, But I 1605 01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:02,880 Speaker 1: think that probably more you know, more appropriate to be, Like, 1606 01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:05,320 Speaker 1: if you can't win a union election, you probably shouldn't 1607 01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:08,439 Speaker 1: be talking about revolution because even if you want to 1608 01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:11,439 Speaker 1: do all the things, you need to have the ability, 1609 01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:15,479 Speaker 1: the skills, the ability immediate conflict, getting everyone on board 1610 01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:18,680 Speaker 1: to do the collective action that like you would need 1611 01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:21,080 Speaker 1: to do to successfully kind of like carry out like 1612 01:33:21,520 --> 01:33:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, it's one thing to have the the grand insurrection. 1613 01:33:25,000 --> 01:33:27,240 Speaker 1: It's the other thing to carry it forward and keep 1614 01:33:27,280 --> 01:33:29,120 Speaker 1: carrying it to the point where you're over the line 1615 01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:33,040 Speaker 1: you've completely changed the world, right, So and I think 1616 01:33:33,040 --> 01:33:36,720 Speaker 1: that And so I just think that like UM and 1617 01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:38,519 Speaker 1: I think that's similar things go with like you know, 1618 01:33:38,560 --> 01:33:43,360 Speaker 1: tenant organizing, community organizing. There's various types of organizing that 1619 01:33:43,600 --> 01:33:45,600 Speaker 1: use those similar skills that you get in like a 1620 01:33:45,680 --> 01:33:49,320 Speaker 1: union campaign. UM. And it's just a very different type 1621 01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:54,160 Speaker 1: of UM politics and organization and skills that you would 1622 01:33:54,200 --> 01:33:57,280 Speaker 1: get from, you know, showing up for your local justice 1623 01:33:57,320 --> 01:34:00,320 Speaker 1: dem and you know, like knocking on the door, sister rangers. 1624 01:34:00,439 --> 01:34:02,519 Speaker 1: You'll never you may never speak to you again. You know. 1625 01:34:03,040 --> 01:34:05,200 Speaker 1: When you're talking with your coworkers, those are your coworkers. 1626 01:34:05,200 --> 01:34:07,200 Speaker 1: They are going to be there until you're you know, 1627 01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:12,120 Speaker 1: you retire or you're fired yep, or you quit. So anyway, 1628 01:34:12,240 --> 01:34:14,559 Speaker 1: that's I guess that's another good takeaway I think from 1629 01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:18,160 Speaker 1: all this. So one thing I wanted to make sure 1630 01:34:18,200 --> 01:34:22,000 Speaker 1: to get to is, so I think there's a lot 1631 01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:25,479 Speaker 1: of people who are listening to this, who working no 1632 01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:29,920 Speaker 1: need workplaces and want to try to start this, and 1633 01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:33,960 Speaker 1: I wanted to know what would be your recommendations for them. 1634 01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:36,240 Speaker 1: You know, how, how how do you start this process? 1635 01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:39,520 Speaker 1: What does this look like? In what kinds of conversations 1636 01:34:41,080 --> 01:34:45,599 Speaker 1: should you be having with your coworkers? Yeah, for sure. 1637 01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:48,360 Speaker 1: So um, I think one of the first things that 1638 01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:51,559 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people, a lot of people 1639 01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:54,920 Speaker 1: don't understand is that there is an amount of risk 1640 01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:58,320 Speaker 1: and stuff too organizing, and that you're, like, first off, 1641 01:34:58,400 --> 01:35:01,639 Speaker 1: like you should be chill and like not like running 1642 01:35:01,640 --> 01:35:03,720 Speaker 1: around telling everyone you want a union, because that's a 1643 01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:07,120 Speaker 1: great way to lose your job. Um. I think the 1644 01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:10,360 Speaker 1: thing is is that you build relationships and find out 1645 01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:15,120 Speaker 1: what's happening, like just like you know, take from your 1646 01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:18,320 Speaker 1: experience and figure out what's like in h like, man, 1647 01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:21,160 Speaker 1: it really sucks like I got like I got screwed 1648 01:35:21,160 --> 01:35:24,720 Speaker 1: over on my vacation requests or like I, you know, man, 1649 01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:27,280 Speaker 1: our raises were really shitty this year, and I heard like, 1650 01:35:27,360 --> 01:35:30,479 Speaker 1: you know, boss talking about like how much like like 1651 01:35:30,520 --> 01:35:33,559 Speaker 1: they've made so much money that sort of thing. Um, 1652 01:35:34,760 --> 01:35:38,800 Speaker 1: So I think that it comes down to you have 1653 01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:42,880 Speaker 1: to be It's kind of like a combination of like 1654 01:35:42,880 --> 01:35:47,240 Speaker 1: like an investigative reporter and like someone who is just 1655 01:35:47,280 --> 01:35:50,519 Speaker 1: really good at like talking to people and just kind 1656 01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:55,200 Speaker 1: of like understanding what's making them tick and understanding also 1657 01:35:55,240 --> 01:35:57,320 Speaker 1: that maybe you're not the person who's going to get 1658 01:35:57,320 --> 01:36:01,559 Speaker 1: everyone on board, but that finding other people who ever, 1659 01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:03,360 Speaker 1: Like I think the big thing is like who's like 1660 01:36:03,400 --> 01:36:07,559 Speaker 1: the most prospected person on like in your work area 1661 01:36:07,640 --> 01:36:10,519 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, who like they know that the 1662 01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:12,840 Speaker 1: unit or they know the work area, they've been there 1663 01:36:12,920 --> 01:36:16,080 Speaker 1: the longest, they have like the most experience. People look 1664 01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:17,800 Speaker 1: up to them. There are the people who train other 1665 01:36:17,800 --> 01:36:20,360 Speaker 1: people that sort of thing. Those are the people who 1666 01:36:20,560 --> 01:36:23,080 Speaker 1: everyone looks to when it comes down to these sorts 1667 01:36:23,120 --> 01:36:26,040 Speaker 1: of things, and you know, just you don't have to 1668 01:36:26,080 --> 01:36:29,080 Speaker 1: be friends with everybody, but like doing it's I think 1669 01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:32,840 Speaker 1: it's really good to just, like two, be open to 1670 01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:36,840 Speaker 1: listening to everybody that you work with and finding out 1671 01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:42,360 Speaker 1: what it is that's really going on. Yes, I've noticed 1672 01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:44,599 Speaker 1: like in a lot of places that I've worked, like 1673 01:36:45,520 --> 01:36:48,240 Speaker 1: the boss is often don't really know what's going on either, 1674 01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:52,200 Speaker 1: like they, And I think that that that's something I 1675 01:36:52,240 --> 01:36:55,519 Speaker 1: can give you if you understand how the process works 1676 01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:58,680 Speaker 1: and who's doing what and what people like need, that 1677 01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:02,400 Speaker 1: gives you like a big vantage over the bosses who 1678 01:37:02,640 --> 01:37:09,599 Speaker 1: just have no idea what's going on, which I think, Yeah, 1679 01:37:09,720 --> 01:37:12,960 Speaker 1: I think it's very it's very normal for bosses to 1680 01:37:13,080 --> 01:37:16,040 Speaker 1: really not know what's happening, and there's always someone who does, 1681 01:37:16,320 --> 01:37:20,240 Speaker 1: like figuring out the people who really know how things 1682 01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:23,120 Speaker 1: work are like those are like the those are the 1683 01:37:23,160 --> 01:37:27,280 Speaker 1: people who, um, you want to be talking with and 1684 01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:30,240 Speaker 1: figuring out like where they kind of stand on things, 1685 01:37:31,160 --> 01:37:35,679 Speaker 1: and um, you know, I think like the first step 1686 01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:39,040 Speaker 1: is like just having good relationships and people trusting you 1687 01:37:39,240 --> 01:37:42,800 Speaker 1: and you know, you know, if you know, like, I 1688 01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:45,280 Speaker 1: don't think everyone needs to be a superstar workers sort 1689 01:37:45,280 --> 01:37:48,000 Speaker 1: of thing to be a good union organizer. But like 1690 01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:51,120 Speaker 1: they always say, it's like people who have the most 1691 01:37:51,120 --> 01:37:54,439 Speaker 1: problems oftentimes are people that are don't make great organizers 1692 01:37:54,479 --> 01:37:57,479 Speaker 1: because people don't see them as people to follow. But 1693 01:37:57,800 --> 01:38:02,120 Speaker 1: um um, but I think that it's important to just 1694 01:38:02,200 --> 01:38:04,599 Speaker 1: like talk with your to like just figure out what's 1695 01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:07,240 Speaker 1: going on first. That's your first step. Figure out what's 1696 01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:09,519 Speaker 1: going on? What are the things I mean? And you 1697 01:38:09,560 --> 01:38:12,880 Speaker 1: can come around together in you know, and like and 1698 01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:16,160 Speaker 1: how do you get people outside of the workplace? So 1699 01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:18,360 Speaker 1: you talk like how do you, like do you have 1700 01:38:18,520 --> 01:38:21,000 Speaker 1: like a group chat or signal chat or like a 1701 01:38:21,040 --> 01:38:23,400 Speaker 1: What's app chat or Facebook group? And where do you 1702 01:38:23,439 --> 01:38:25,280 Speaker 1: just like start kind of like and you know, be 1703 01:38:25,400 --> 01:38:28,360 Speaker 1: very care be careful about who's involved and just kind 1704 01:38:28,400 --> 01:38:30,519 Speaker 1: of like low key, just like start talking with folks 1705 01:38:30,560 --> 01:38:34,439 Speaker 1: and identifying to people who, um, who are outside of 1706 01:38:34,439 --> 01:38:37,519 Speaker 1: your work area, who know people like sometimes it's you know, 1707 01:38:37,560 --> 01:38:39,000 Speaker 1: you'll talk to people and they're like, I don't want 1708 01:38:39,040 --> 01:38:41,280 Speaker 1: to talk about a union, but you'll be like, do 1709 01:38:41,320 --> 01:38:45,040 Speaker 1: you know anyone who cares? Who who has said anything 1710 01:38:45,080 --> 01:38:48,200 Speaker 1: about unions before, and so talking to people to find 1711 01:38:48,200 --> 01:38:50,760 Speaker 1: out who they know. Like these are all this kind 1712 01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:53,760 Speaker 1: of like crucial first steps to like organizing. And I 1713 01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:57,519 Speaker 1: think the thing is is that, like there have been 1714 01:38:57,600 --> 01:39:00,559 Speaker 1: times where you'll have a non union work place where 1715 01:39:01,120 --> 01:39:04,800 Speaker 1: if the people in a particular area of of like 1716 01:39:04,840 --> 01:39:07,719 Speaker 1: a of like a hospital or like a workplace wherever, 1717 01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:11,120 Speaker 1: we'll do some collective thing that gets some sort of results. 1718 01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:13,439 Speaker 1: So I think it's always like it's like, let's get 1719 01:39:13,479 --> 01:39:17,800 Speaker 1: people to sign off on a petition about like you know, 1720 01:39:18,000 --> 01:39:23,360 Speaker 1: like if of your coworkers are unhappy with like raises 1721 01:39:23,439 --> 01:39:25,240 Speaker 1: or something like that. Like the more people that are 1722 01:39:25,280 --> 01:39:28,880 Speaker 1: involved in those first steps, the more likely it is 1723 01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:33,160 Speaker 1: that it won't result in retaliation and like you'll end 1724 01:39:33,240 --> 01:39:38,800 Speaker 1: up getting some sort of victory. Um. So I guess 1725 01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:40,720 Speaker 1: like the thing that I would say is just like 1726 01:39:40,840 --> 01:39:45,080 Speaker 1: be be ready for like people to look at greet 1727 01:39:45,080 --> 01:39:49,600 Speaker 1: you with skepticism because like it's it's hard, it's a 1728 01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:52,720 Speaker 1: hard thing to do, and always just be finding out 1729 01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:56,080 Speaker 1: what is bothering people and then look at little things 1730 01:39:56,120 --> 01:39:58,719 Speaker 1: that you can do to kind of like flex power, 1731 01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:03,400 Speaker 1: like to like actively flects your power and um. It 1732 01:40:03,439 --> 01:40:07,680 Speaker 1: can be as small as like everyone bringing up the 1733 01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:10,760 Speaker 1: same issue at like a work meeting, right Like if 1734 01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:13,759 Speaker 1: you and it could be like, hey, let's talk about 1735 01:40:13,800 --> 01:40:15,479 Speaker 1: this at this work meeting. This is and if we 1736 01:40:15,560 --> 01:40:19,720 Speaker 1: all say something together, like, we're going to be fine, right. UM. 1737 01:40:19,880 --> 01:40:23,360 Speaker 1: So like starting with those first steps, I think it 1738 01:40:23,479 --> 01:40:25,720 Speaker 1: is the first like thing, Like the first thing is 1739 01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:29,200 Speaker 1: know what's going on, build relationships, be a trustworthy person, 1740 01:40:29,400 --> 01:40:32,400 Speaker 1: Like you can't be like the unit gossip or the 1741 01:40:32,400 --> 01:40:34,919 Speaker 1: the work area gossip that like knows that's in everyone's 1742 01:40:34,920 --> 01:40:38,439 Speaker 1: business or stirring up stuff and be successful at this. UM. 1743 01:40:38,520 --> 01:40:41,519 Speaker 1: But if you are, you know, if you're someone that 1744 01:40:41,560 --> 01:40:44,680 Speaker 1: people like trust or look to or you know, like 1745 01:40:44,720 --> 01:40:47,040 Speaker 1: a person that people are like they help solve our problems, 1746 01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:49,920 Speaker 1: those are the people who I mean you're going to 1747 01:40:49,960 --> 01:40:52,320 Speaker 1: be well set to begin to kind of take the 1748 01:40:52,360 --> 01:40:55,320 Speaker 1: steps on that and then you know as you kind 1749 01:40:55,320 --> 01:40:59,160 Speaker 1: of build those kind of like build that organization step 1750 01:40:59,160 --> 01:41:04,559 Speaker 1: by step. No, no union UM is going to invest 1751 01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:08,240 Speaker 1: the time in a union campaign. If it's just you 1752 01:41:08,439 --> 01:41:11,400 Speaker 1: and like two other people, like you need like you 1753 01:41:11,439 --> 01:41:13,160 Speaker 1: need to get a room, They're always say like, well, 1754 01:41:13,200 --> 01:41:14,800 Speaker 1: if you get a room full of people together, I'm 1755 01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:17,080 Speaker 1: willing to talk to them, and that's kind of the thing. 1756 01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:19,439 Speaker 1: And you know, Zoom and stuff has actually made that 1757 01:41:19,439 --> 01:41:23,160 Speaker 1: a little bit easier UM, which in some ways can 1758 01:41:23,200 --> 01:41:25,439 Speaker 1: be a weakness because you end up with like it's 1759 01:41:25,439 --> 01:41:27,719 Speaker 1: a lot less commitment to show up to a Zoom 1760 01:41:27,720 --> 01:41:31,040 Speaker 1: meeting that it is to UM to show up at 1761 01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:35,200 Speaker 1: like a bar or a place after work UM or 1762 01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:37,600 Speaker 1: a church or wherever. It's like a good, like h 1763 01:41:38,240 --> 01:41:40,720 Speaker 1: like neutral safe place and people feel like they can 1764 01:41:40,760 --> 01:41:43,280 Speaker 1: be honest with each other about what's going on. UM. 1765 01:41:43,320 --> 01:41:49,400 Speaker 1: But at the same time, just like being the more 1766 01:41:50,040 --> 01:41:53,519 Speaker 1: the the more people you get on board with the thing, 1767 01:41:54,120 --> 01:41:58,040 Speaker 1: the more likely that it will succeed. You'll attract support 1768 01:41:58,160 --> 01:42:01,280 Speaker 1: from like an actual union that UM is able to 1769 01:42:01,320 --> 01:42:03,120 Speaker 1: help you if you decide that that's how you want 1770 01:42:03,120 --> 01:42:05,080 Speaker 1: to do it, or if that makes sense in a 1771 01:42:05,160 --> 01:42:08,679 Speaker 1: legal context. And so I just like always like start small, 1772 01:42:08,760 --> 01:42:11,800 Speaker 1: figure out the small things, be willing to do like 1773 01:42:11,880 --> 01:42:15,760 Speaker 1: collective action to get little small victories. And that's a 1774 01:42:15,880 --> 01:42:18,760 Speaker 1: great way to get started, I think, and then like 1775 01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:21,639 Speaker 1: really do like sleuthing and research, like figure out how 1776 01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:26,120 Speaker 1: things actually work. UM. That's like you know, That was 1777 01:42:26,160 --> 01:42:28,559 Speaker 1: a problem with the Best Market campaign down in uh 1778 01:42:28,760 --> 01:42:31,639 Speaker 1: down in Alabama with those Amazon workers is they didn't 1779 01:42:31,680 --> 01:42:34,960 Speaker 1: know how many people worked at that facility, and then 1780 01:42:34,960 --> 01:42:36,400 Speaker 1: all of a sudden they're like, oh, yeah, we're going 1781 01:42:36,400 --> 01:42:39,240 Speaker 1: to include like an extra thousand people in this vote, 1782 01:42:40,600 --> 01:42:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, like six weeks out, and you know, like 1783 01:42:44,240 --> 01:42:45,439 Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to take a 1784 01:42:45,520 --> 01:42:47,720 Speaker 1: dump on the people who did that. But like, if 1785 01:42:47,760 --> 01:42:50,800 Speaker 1: you don't know that there's like another thousand people, or 1786 01:42:50,920 --> 01:42:53,640 Speaker 1: you don't have like everyone on board, you're not going 1787 01:42:53,680 --> 01:42:57,160 Speaker 1: to succeed. So no, everything you can as you're going 1788 01:42:57,200 --> 01:42:59,400 Speaker 1: in and do everything you can to find out things 1789 01:42:59,479 --> 01:43:02,519 Speaker 1: or make buddies with the friends buddies of the people 1790 01:43:02,520 --> 01:43:06,280 Speaker 1: who are gonna you know, know these things and you know, 1791 01:43:06,760 --> 01:43:08,840 Speaker 1: and then support each other, like it means showing up 1792 01:43:09,040 --> 01:43:12,840 Speaker 1: when like someone Sometimes what we do during these campaigns 1793 01:43:12,880 --> 01:43:18,120 Speaker 1: is someone will will have the contact for someone who's interested, 1794 01:43:18,600 --> 01:43:20,679 Speaker 1: and then your job is to go and find that 1795 01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:23,519 Speaker 1: person where they work and talk with them and then 1796 01:43:23,560 --> 01:43:25,640 Speaker 1: talk with them while they talk with their coworkers or 1797 01:43:25,680 --> 01:43:27,679 Speaker 1: back up them while they're talking to the co workers. 1798 01:43:27,680 --> 01:43:30,920 Speaker 1: Because they trust their their coworkers, trust their coworker, you know, 1799 01:43:31,680 --> 01:43:33,880 Speaker 1: you're a random stranger, you know, and then like, don't 1800 01:43:33,920 --> 01:43:35,400 Speaker 1: be afraid to say I don't know, but I will 1801 01:43:35,439 --> 01:43:38,040 Speaker 1: find out. Right, there's like this, there's this pressure I 1802 01:43:38,080 --> 01:43:40,880 Speaker 1: think to like have all the answers to like whatever 1803 01:43:40,880 --> 01:43:46,200 Speaker 1: people's questions are. And I think that it's like, um, 1804 01:43:46,240 --> 01:43:51,960 Speaker 1: I think that it's like I think that it's important 1805 01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:55,400 Speaker 1: to be honest when you don't understand, but then do 1806 01:43:55,479 --> 01:43:58,960 Speaker 1: the work of figuring out the answers for people. UM. 1807 01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:00,920 Speaker 1: And I think people respect that. And you know, a 1808 01:44:00,920 --> 01:44:03,680 Speaker 1: lot of people who are vocally against these sorts of 1809 01:44:03,720 --> 01:44:07,120 Speaker 1: things up front it's because they don't know. And if 1810 01:44:07,200 --> 01:44:08,840 Speaker 1: you you know, you're like, no, we've got a right 1811 01:44:08,920 --> 01:44:12,559 Speaker 1: to do this, or like, you know, the the you know, 1812 01:44:12,680 --> 01:44:15,559 Speaker 1: a management will say things like managion will say things 1813 01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:20,439 Speaker 1: like oh you will, um, you know, the union will 1814 01:44:20,479 --> 01:44:23,280 Speaker 1: get in between our relationship with you know, with you 1815 01:44:23,360 --> 01:44:26,800 Speaker 1: and us, right, And the point is is that like, well, 1816 01:44:26,840 --> 01:44:29,040 Speaker 1: the union is us where the code where the people 1817 01:44:29,040 --> 01:44:31,679 Speaker 1: doing it? Like everyone running You can't run a union 1818 01:44:31,840 --> 01:44:34,160 Speaker 1: if you don't have a bunch of people involved from 1819 01:44:34,200 --> 01:44:37,080 Speaker 1: the workplace. And it's like and making sure that people 1820 01:44:37,120 --> 01:44:40,519 Speaker 1: who are UM those people who end up being kind 1821 01:44:40,520 --> 01:44:43,880 Speaker 1: of like spokespersons for everyone else are people that folks 1822 01:44:43,960 --> 01:44:46,479 Speaker 1: trust and they have like a good like grasp of 1823 01:44:46,560 --> 01:44:51,439 Speaker 1: what everyone wants and yeah, so yeah, and then like 1824 01:44:51,479 --> 01:44:53,400 Speaker 1: you know, don't get bogged down in the legal ship. 1825 01:44:53,560 --> 01:44:56,360 Speaker 1: Like you know, collective action really is like your most 1826 01:44:56,360 --> 01:44:59,439 Speaker 1: powerful tool. Um all the other kind of like the 1827 01:44:59,479 --> 01:45:02,519 Speaker 1: grievance is not stuff. It's important and you can't let 1828 01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:05,599 Speaker 1: it go, but it's also like it's designed to kind 1829 01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:09,720 Speaker 1: of grind people down. So um, you know, the more 1830 01:45:09,720 --> 01:45:12,720 Speaker 1: collective action you take, like the more likely it is 1831 01:45:12,760 --> 01:45:15,200 Speaker 1: that you're going to be successful and keep people engaged 1832 01:45:15,240 --> 01:45:20,240 Speaker 1: and excited. Yeah, going back to what you were saying earlier, 1833 01:45:20,240 --> 01:45:23,639 Speaker 1: this might mind up being last episode depending on where 1834 01:45:23,680 --> 01:45:26,720 Speaker 1: this breaks down time wise, But yeah, I think it's 1835 01:45:26,720 --> 01:45:29,439 Speaker 1: also it's just this is going to take time and 1836 01:45:29,560 --> 01:45:34,680 Speaker 1: a lot of work, and I think it's it's it's 1837 01:45:34,720 --> 01:45:37,960 Speaker 1: important age to understand going in that this is a 1838 01:45:37,960 --> 01:45:40,200 Speaker 1: long and difficult process. It's not gonna happen overnight, and 1839 01:45:40,240 --> 01:45:44,559 Speaker 1: be that it's a lot of work, Like you have 1840 01:45:44,600 --> 01:45:46,519 Speaker 1: to there's there's a lot of things that you have 1841 01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:48,280 Speaker 1: to do. There's a lot of sort of logistics. There's 1842 01:45:48,280 --> 01:45:51,640 Speaker 1: a lot of talking, there's a lot of like negotiating, 1843 01:45:51,640 --> 01:45:53,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of sort of I mean just just 1844 01:45:53,360 --> 01:45:57,360 Speaker 1: even I don't know, before anything gets off the ground, 1845 01:45:57,520 --> 01:45:59,639 Speaker 1: you have to spend enormous amounts of time and effort 1846 01:45:59,680 --> 01:46:02,760 Speaker 1: doing off And that's that's that's like it's just the 1847 01:46:02,800 --> 01:46:06,479 Speaker 1: reality of it. So yeah, there's there's no there's there's 1848 01:46:06,479 --> 01:46:09,320 Speaker 1: no there's there's there's there's no magic bullet like there's 1849 01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:12,200 Speaker 1: no sort of yeah, there's there's no just like one 1850 01:46:12,320 --> 01:46:14,920 Speaker 1: thing you can do that like magically makes a you 1851 01:46:14,960 --> 01:46:18,000 Speaker 1: need appear. It's a bunch of people coming together and 1852 01:46:18,520 --> 01:46:21,720 Speaker 1: like fighting for it for a long time. Yeah, I 1853 01:46:21,760 --> 01:46:23,519 Speaker 1: think that that's like the main thing is like you're 1854 01:46:23,880 --> 01:46:27,360 Speaker 1: it's it's a cliche. That's like it's a marathon, not 1855 01:46:27,439 --> 01:46:31,840 Speaker 1: as prints. Um. Sometimes I hate when people say that ship, 1856 01:46:31,920 --> 01:46:36,440 Speaker 1: but it's true, like you you really do have like, um, 1857 01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:38,280 Speaker 1: you're in it for the long haul, and a lot 1858 01:46:38,280 --> 01:46:42,160 Speaker 1: of times it's like your people are ready to do 1859 01:46:42,320 --> 01:46:45,599 Speaker 1: these things when they're like this is like I don't 1860 01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:47,479 Speaker 1: want you know, it's one thing to pop up in 1861 01:46:47,479 --> 01:46:49,599 Speaker 1: a place and be there for like you know, six months, 1862 01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:51,880 Speaker 1: to be like I need a we need a union. Right. 1863 01:46:52,640 --> 01:46:54,960 Speaker 1: No one you know that works in that place trust you. 1864 01:46:55,000 --> 01:46:57,400 Speaker 1: They don't know who you are. Like, they're not going 1865 01:46:57,439 --> 01:47:00,280 Speaker 1: to follow you to do anything or you know, or 1866 01:47:00,400 --> 01:47:04,160 Speaker 1: take you you know, follow your lead. Um. It's the 1867 01:47:04,200 --> 01:47:06,960 Speaker 1: people who are like, I'm gonna be here, this is 1868 01:47:07,000 --> 01:47:08,960 Speaker 1: my this is where I want to be, and you know, 1869 01:47:09,080 --> 01:47:11,120 Speaker 1: this is a I want to be here for the 1870 01:47:11,160 --> 01:47:13,240 Speaker 1: next few years. And think of it as like a 1871 01:47:13,360 --> 01:47:16,120 Speaker 1: long term investment in the quality of your life and 1872 01:47:16,120 --> 01:47:20,519 Speaker 1: the quality of life at your workplace, because to win, 1873 01:47:20,640 --> 01:47:24,040 Speaker 1: you have to be sticking around, you know. And I 1874 01:47:24,080 --> 01:47:27,679 Speaker 1: think that's where it gets tough with people who are 1875 01:47:27,800 --> 01:47:32,360 Speaker 1: in like precarious types of employment or different types of 1876 01:47:32,439 --> 01:47:34,519 Speaker 1: and that's where you have to start looking at alternate 1877 01:47:34,520 --> 01:47:38,280 Speaker 1: ways to organize because maybe you're a precarious worker who 1878 01:47:38,320 --> 01:47:41,839 Speaker 1: does maybe you drive, like for a right here service, 1879 01:47:41,920 --> 01:47:44,479 Speaker 1: or maybe you like do delivery or like you know, 1880 01:47:45,080 --> 01:47:47,559 Speaker 1: um for an app or whatever you delivery for an app. 1881 01:47:47,600 --> 01:47:51,080 Speaker 1: And I think the thing is is like that sort 1882 01:47:51,120 --> 01:47:54,360 Speaker 1: of thing because of how and you know, these aren't 1883 01:47:54,479 --> 01:47:56,760 Speaker 1: like new forms of work. This is actually really old 1884 01:47:56,760 --> 01:47:59,160 Speaker 1: forms of work that are just like been like rebranded 1885 01:47:59,160 --> 01:48:03,840 Speaker 1: by tech bros decided like they're like they're like they're great. 1886 01:48:03,880 --> 01:48:07,439 Speaker 1: Genius is like rebranding the kind of like precarious work 1887 01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:10,080 Speaker 1: that was really like prominent like throughout the nineteenth century. 1888 01:48:10,640 --> 01:48:12,519 Speaker 1: And it's like, so then what do you do is 1889 01:48:12,520 --> 01:48:16,160 Speaker 1: you come up with ways to organize people regardless of 1890 01:48:16,320 --> 01:48:18,720 Speaker 1: like oh, like i'm you know, I work for this, 1891 01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:21,519 Speaker 1: like I work for lift or work for Uber and 1892 01:48:21,560 --> 01:48:24,000 Speaker 1: it kind of switches back and forth. Like the thing is, 1893 01:48:24,040 --> 01:48:26,720 Speaker 1: it's like that's when you start talking with you know, 1894 01:48:27,680 --> 01:48:31,760 Speaker 1: rideshare drivers across different like apps or whatever, and then 1895 01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:35,040 Speaker 1: you come up with a way to work collectively, um 1896 01:48:35,080 --> 01:48:38,840 Speaker 1: to to change sorts of things. And sometimes that's it's 1897 01:48:38,840 --> 01:48:41,559 Speaker 1: gonna be it's gonna be tough, you know. And that's 1898 01:48:41,560 --> 01:48:43,240 Speaker 1: when I kind of look at those that sort of 1899 01:48:43,240 --> 01:48:45,880 Speaker 1: thing is like this is where it's a learning experience 1900 01:48:46,479 --> 01:48:48,840 Speaker 1: and maybe I don't get everything I want, but you 1901 01:48:48,880 --> 01:48:50,840 Speaker 1: know it's really important. I mean, it's like building these 1902 01:48:50,880 --> 01:48:54,240 Speaker 1: networks of people who care about like what they're working. 1903 01:48:54,240 --> 01:48:57,320 Speaker 1: Conditions are like, and you can pull things off maybe 1904 01:48:57,439 --> 01:49:00,400 Speaker 1: unexpectedly that you didn't expect. We're going to be like 1905 01:49:00,560 --> 01:49:04,160 Speaker 1: the thing, you know, like you may start with something 1906 01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:06,080 Speaker 1: that looks like a union drive and then you end 1907 01:49:06,160 --> 01:49:10,519 Speaker 1: up with something that looks like very different. It could 1908 01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:12,559 Speaker 1: you know, could go in all sorts of different directions. 1909 01:49:12,560 --> 01:49:16,559 Speaker 1: So um, you know there and look outside of the US, 1910 01:49:16,640 --> 01:49:20,240 Speaker 1: you know, their countries where like in UM, I think 1911 01:49:20,240 --> 01:49:24,280 Speaker 1: that there have been some pretty successful delivery app organ 1912 01:49:24,360 --> 01:49:29,519 Speaker 1: to organizing in London, UM. And you know, I think 1913 01:49:29,560 --> 01:49:35,160 Speaker 1: that to a certain extent, like formal extent, US unions 1914 01:49:35,240 --> 01:49:39,759 Speaker 1: have not been very successful in organizing those workers because 1915 01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:46,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't it's hard to do from the extant business 1916 01:49:46,240 --> 01:49:49,120 Speaker 1: union model, and so it's like it's one of those 1917 01:49:49,160 --> 01:49:51,920 Speaker 1: things where you know, it used to be, you know, 1918 01:49:52,040 --> 01:49:55,519 Speaker 1: they would have like you know, the fight would be 1919 01:49:55,560 --> 01:50:01,160 Speaker 1: instead of trying to get like workers are like a 1920 01:50:01,600 --> 01:50:04,240 Speaker 1: contract at a particular like work site, you set up 1921 01:50:04,280 --> 01:50:06,439 Speaker 1: a hiring hall, like the i w W would set 1922 01:50:06,520 --> 01:50:10,400 Speaker 1: up hiring halls, UM and like you know for lumberjacks 1923 01:50:10,400 --> 01:50:13,080 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, and those workers are always precarious, right, 1924 01:50:13,160 --> 01:50:16,200 Speaker 1: but they would go trying set up so that like 1925 01:50:16,280 --> 01:50:18,920 Speaker 1: people would only take jobs out of the hiring hall 1926 01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:21,200 Speaker 1: and that's how they would control their like their work. 1927 01:50:21,200 --> 01:50:24,439 Speaker 1: And I think that more unions needed. And part of 1928 01:50:24,479 --> 01:50:29,000 Speaker 1: this is, like would if there's any union people out 1929 01:50:29,040 --> 01:50:30,920 Speaker 1: there who are in staff and that sort of thing. 1930 01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:34,280 Speaker 1: Is like, there needs to be a serious re examination 1931 01:50:34,320 --> 01:50:36,680 Speaker 1: of how we do unions in this country. And I 1932 01:50:36,720 --> 01:50:39,840 Speaker 1: think a lot of people inside unions understand that, but 1933 01:50:39,880 --> 01:50:42,200 Speaker 1: no one has quite done it yet in a way 1934 01:50:42,240 --> 01:50:45,200 Speaker 1: that's effective. And I think that we really do need 1935 01:50:45,240 --> 01:50:47,439 Speaker 1: to kind of re evaluate that sort of stuff. So 1936 01:50:48,240 --> 01:50:51,400 Speaker 1: just you know, as someone who's going into like a 1937 01:50:51,439 --> 01:50:56,240 Speaker 1: new sort of organizing campaign, just understand that like getting 1938 01:50:56,280 --> 01:50:59,599 Speaker 1: the union contract isn't necessarily the end gold end goal 1939 01:50:59,720 --> 01:51:01,559 Speaker 1: is to try and get your boss to do things 1940 01:51:01,840 --> 01:51:04,559 Speaker 1: differently so that you're not like miserable at work. And 1941 01:51:04,840 --> 01:51:07,240 Speaker 1: that might look like a contractor it might look like 1942 01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:11,000 Speaker 1: you know, a a one day like uh, you know, 1943 01:51:11,080 --> 01:51:13,160 Speaker 1: app strike or something like that. You know, you'll you'll 1944 01:51:13,160 --> 01:51:15,400 Speaker 1: figure you've got to figure out how it's gonna work. 1945 01:51:15,479 --> 01:51:20,680 Speaker 1: Like with you know, in healthcare, you know, there's this 1946 01:51:20,720 --> 01:51:23,479 Speaker 1: idea that like, you know, there's the gold standard of 1947 01:51:23,520 --> 01:51:25,320 Speaker 1: the strike where you strike until we win and we're 1948 01:51:25,360 --> 01:51:27,479 Speaker 1: out for like you know, like two or three months. Well, 1949 01:51:27,520 --> 01:51:30,200 Speaker 1: the problem is is that there's an industry of scab 1950 01:51:30,439 --> 01:51:33,760 Speaker 1: nurses and healthcare workers where at any point they can 1951 01:51:33,800 --> 01:51:36,720 Speaker 1: bring in people to replace enough of you that a 1952 01:51:36,760 --> 01:51:40,040 Speaker 1: hospital can maintain operations. And unless you're super organized like 1953 01:51:40,080 --> 01:51:44,400 Speaker 1: they were up in um Buffalo, uh with c W 1954 01:51:44,560 --> 01:51:48,040 Speaker 1: A like, and have a big network of people and 1955 01:51:48,040 --> 01:51:51,040 Speaker 1: you're ready to go to like you know, like picket 1956 01:51:51,040 --> 01:51:54,840 Speaker 1: board members houses and that sort of stuff. Um, those 1957 01:51:54,840 --> 01:51:57,040 Speaker 1: long term strikes can end in defeat where you end 1958 01:51:57,080 --> 01:52:00,960 Speaker 1: up with you know, you're all replaced with scabs and 1959 01:52:00,960 --> 01:52:03,719 Speaker 1: and it sucks, and it's happened, and then you gotta 1960 01:52:03,800 --> 01:52:05,360 Speaker 1: I guess you gotta learn from it, you know, like 1961 01:52:05,439 --> 01:52:11,479 Speaker 1: we've there was a famous strike in Minnesota with healthcare 1962 01:52:11,520 --> 01:52:13,800 Speaker 1: workers and they went out and they were out for 1963 01:52:13,880 --> 01:52:15,880 Speaker 1: months and months and there are people on you know, 1964 01:52:15,960 --> 01:52:17,960 Speaker 1: going to the SUP kitchen to feed their kids and stuff, 1965 01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:22,519 Speaker 1: and they lost right. And so my union tends to 1966 01:52:22,560 --> 01:52:24,519 Speaker 1: do one day strikes, but instead of just being at 1967 01:52:24,560 --> 01:52:28,120 Speaker 1: one hospital, we organized multiple hospitals across the country so 1968 01:52:28,160 --> 01:52:30,760 Speaker 1: that it soaks up all the like scat drives up 1969 01:52:30,960 --> 01:52:34,920 Speaker 1: right scabs and it really like that. I think ideas 1970 01:52:35,000 --> 01:52:38,960 Speaker 1: like intermittent strikes were actually a really powerful tool back when, 1971 01:52:39,080 --> 01:52:41,559 Speaker 1: you know, back when it was the c I oh, 1972 01:52:41,560 --> 01:52:43,120 Speaker 1: and it was like we're going to just stop working 1973 01:52:43,280 --> 01:52:45,840 Speaker 1: until he fixed this problem. UM. And that's why they 1974 01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:47,680 Speaker 1: made them illegal. And it takes a lot of work 1975 01:52:47,720 --> 01:52:49,400 Speaker 1: to pull them off. But if you can't pull them off, 1976 01:52:49,439 --> 01:52:51,160 Speaker 1: that could be an effective way. And if you're not 1977 01:52:51,200 --> 01:52:54,200 Speaker 1: in a union, maybe getting people down for a one 1978 01:52:54,280 --> 01:52:57,720 Speaker 1: day like work stoppage at your work or even you know, 1979 01:52:58,120 --> 01:53:01,120 Speaker 1: maybe it's like we're not starting our shift right. I've 1980 01:53:01,120 --> 01:53:02,760 Speaker 1: been in the room. I've been in the room where 1981 01:53:02,760 --> 01:53:04,519 Speaker 1: it's like, no, we're not going out to take that 1982 01:53:04,600 --> 01:53:08,240 Speaker 1: assignment until like we get our staff situation set up 1983 01:53:08,479 --> 01:53:12,360 Speaker 1: like fixed. And you know, sometimes it's just those collective 1984 01:53:12,800 --> 01:53:17,840 Speaker 1: actions are you know, it's not the end, Like there's 1985 01:53:17,880 --> 01:53:20,240 Speaker 1: no end. I'll be all one size fits all solution, 1986 01:53:20,920 --> 01:53:23,759 Speaker 1: just be ready to kind of like explore what it means, 1987 01:53:24,000 --> 01:53:27,000 Speaker 1: get all the resources you can. There's groups like there's 1988 01:53:27,040 --> 01:53:29,200 Speaker 1: still like the Industrial Workers of the World, which has 1989 01:53:29,320 --> 01:53:32,439 Speaker 1: really good organizing trainings o T one oh one and 1990 01:53:32,560 --> 01:53:35,640 Speaker 1: one oh two. I'll pitch that as a member of 1991 01:53:36,040 --> 01:53:38,080 Speaker 1: as a also a dual carding member of the i 1992 01:53:38,280 --> 01:53:43,200 Speaker 1: w w UM. But there's also Labor Notes UM and 1993 01:53:43,360 --> 01:53:46,680 Speaker 1: other groups like Essential Workers Organizing Committee. That's sort of 1994 01:53:46,760 --> 01:53:49,360 Speaker 1: things that like give you good like rundowns on how 1995 01:53:49,400 --> 01:53:54,840 Speaker 1: to do the organizing work. So just be careful, always 1996 01:53:54,880 --> 01:53:58,760 Speaker 1: be careful. Be aware that people are afraid. Bosses use 1997 01:53:58,880 --> 01:54:02,680 Speaker 1: fear um to scare you guys, to scare everybody, and like, 1998 01:54:02,760 --> 01:54:05,680 Speaker 1: the the more people on board with a thing, the 1999 01:54:05,840 --> 01:54:08,160 Speaker 1: less fear. Like it's amazing when you're running up into 2000 01:54:08,200 --> 01:54:10,559 Speaker 1: a strike and you're really firing on all cylinders and 2001 01:54:10,640 --> 01:54:13,240 Speaker 1: like everyone in your like work areas, like we're getting 2002 01:54:13,240 --> 01:54:15,240 Speaker 1: together to take a picture, like getting ready to go 2003 01:54:15,280 --> 01:54:18,160 Speaker 1: on strike, and it's like literally, I mean when we 2004 01:54:18,200 --> 01:54:20,280 Speaker 1: went on strike, when our hospital went on strike, it 2005 01:54:20,320 --> 01:54:23,719 Speaker 1: was the first time where like there was like nurses 2006 01:54:23,760 --> 01:54:26,240 Speaker 1: on one places the first time when all of us 2007 01:54:26,240 --> 01:54:30,400 Speaker 1: were in one place ever. And it's this massive like 2008 01:54:30,760 --> 01:54:34,400 Speaker 1: coming together thing experience. And it's really hard to describe 2009 01:54:34,400 --> 01:54:37,680 Speaker 1: when you when because you know, we're always griping at 2010 01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:39,560 Speaker 1: each other about this or that thing is like, but 2011 01:54:39,640 --> 01:54:41,680 Speaker 1: when you're actually all out there together at the same time, 2012 01:54:41,680 --> 01:54:45,680 Speaker 1: when you pull it off, it's really amazing. Um, it's hard, 2013 01:54:45,800 --> 01:54:48,680 Speaker 1: it's it's hard to describe, um, but when you do it, 2014 01:54:48,680 --> 01:54:52,920 Speaker 1: it's like it's like the purest drug. And so I've 2015 01:54:52,960 --> 01:54:55,120 Speaker 1: I've heard some people who are union skeptical be like, 2016 01:54:55,120 --> 01:54:57,480 Speaker 1: well you just experienced like the good ship, and like 2017 01:54:57,520 --> 01:55:00,760 Speaker 1: what about all the defeats, Like, well, get the little hits, 2018 01:55:01,040 --> 01:55:03,520 Speaker 1: get the little hits here and there, and get yourself 2019 01:55:03,520 --> 01:55:04,960 Speaker 1: to the point where you can do the big thing. 2020 01:55:05,560 --> 01:55:07,840 Speaker 1: You know, you're the whole thing is like getting people 2021 01:55:07,880 --> 01:55:10,680 Speaker 1: to do the thing is like the is it's like 2022 01:55:10,760 --> 01:55:15,000 Speaker 1: the perennial uh, you know, curse at the left, can 2023 01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:18,000 Speaker 1: you do it? Or curse of you know, like the 2024 01:55:17,440 --> 01:55:22,480 Speaker 1: the organizer activist or you know, whatever you wanna call it. 2025 01:55:22,560 --> 01:55:25,080 Speaker 1: You know, it's just but you know, if you don't 2026 01:55:25,080 --> 01:55:29,400 Speaker 1: do anything, nothing happens. You can all sit and complain 2027 01:55:30,320 --> 01:55:32,880 Speaker 1: and nothing changes. So you know, the only way to 2028 01:55:32,960 --> 01:55:35,440 Speaker 1: changes things is take those complaints and turn them into 2029 01:55:35,480 --> 01:55:38,240 Speaker 1: collective action. Yeah. I think I think that's that's that 2030 01:55:38,360 --> 01:55:40,520 Speaker 1: that that that that's that's a pretty good positive note 2031 01:55:40,520 --> 01:55:44,360 Speaker 1: to end on. Just go do thing. Go do the 2032 01:55:44,440 --> 01:55:48,600 Speaker 1: thing now, stop tweets, stop tweeting, stop tweeting about it, 2033 01:55:49,040 --> 01:55:55,080 Speaker 1: Go do the thing. Um. Yeah, I think that's I Like, 2034 01:55:55,160 --> 01:55:57,360 Speaker 1: I guess one last thing, because I talked about social 2035 01:55:57,400 --> 01:55:59,240 Speaker 1: media and talk. You know, I talked smack. I Like, 2036 01:55:59,400 --> 01:56:01,560 Speaker 1: I've been off Twitter for some months now, is it 2037 01:56:01,600 --> 01:56:05,280 Speaker 1: really cleared my brain? But you know, um, being on 2038 01:56:06,080 --> 01:56:10,000 Speaker 1: finding the social media space where your your coworkers are 2039 01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:13,400 Speaker 1: at is really important. And that might mean setting up 2040 01:56:13,440 --> 01:56:16,520 Speaker 1: like a discord or you know what's app or a 2041 01:56:16,560 --> 01:56:19,520 Speaker 1: Facebook group. You can set up secret Facebook groups that 2042 01:56:19,560 --> 01:56:22,240 Speaker 1: no one can see. And yeah, like you like, Facebook 2043 01:56:22,280 --> 01:56:26,920 Speaker 1: will periodically shut them down. But like our hospital has 2044 01:56:26,960 --> 01:56:29,240 Speaker 1: like a like a Facebook group with like two thousand 2045 01:56:29,320 --> 01:56:33,760 Speaker 1: nurses and we and that's where we got really amped up. 2046 01:56:34,320 --> 01:56:35,840 Speaker 1: And it was a way for us to be talking 2047 01:56:35,840 --> 01:56:39,320 Speaker 1: with each other and talk each other through um, the 2048 01:56:39,440 --> 01:56:42,320 Speaker 1: stress of setting up you know this thing. And then also, 2049 01:56:42,400 --> 01:56:46,960 Speaker 1: like you know, people workers can't organize like like people 2050 01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:50,760 Speaker 1: will do organizing even if like they don't have like 2051 01:56:50,840 --> 01:56:53,920 Speaker 1: that full support. So like some coworkers, not coworkers, but 2052 01:56:54,880 --> 01:56:57,280 Speaker 1: members of my union went on strike at Cook County 2053 01:56:57,360 --> 01:57:00,760 Speaker 1: this year, and the whole thing was organized practice without 2054 01:57:00,800 --> 01:57:05,160 Speaker 1: like staff right because the staff were barred from being 2055 01:57:05,240 --> 01:57:09,280 Speaker 1: in meetings, like in person meetings because of COVID, and 2056 01:57:09,320 --> 01:57:11,600 Speaker 1: they couldn't go into the hospital because of COVID. So 2057 01:57:13,440 --> 01:57:15,920 Speaker 1: people were very pissed about how things have been going, 2058 01:57:16,000 --> 01:57:19,240 Speaker 1: and they were talking to each other and we organized 2059 01:57:19,240 --> 01:57:22,840 Speaker 1: that strike. They organized that strike on their own practically, Um, 2060 01:57:22,880 --> 01:57:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, it lined up. They were off there. You know, 2061 01:57:26,280 --> 01:57:29,080 Speaker 1: they didn't have that no strike clause like operating at 2062 01:57:29,080 --> 01:57:32,240 Speaker 1: the time, and um, and they pulled off like a 2063 01:57:32,440 --> 01:57:36,280 Speaker 1: pretty like a significant victory um from their one day 2064 01:57:36,320 --> 01:57:39,440 Speaker 1: strike and it really um really you know, like got 2065 01:57:39,520 --> 01:57:42,840 Speaker 1: them some big wins. But and they didn't they didn't 2066 01:57:42,840 --> 01:57:45,040 Speaker 1: need the union to do it for them. You know, 2067 01:57:45,040 --> 01:57:48,160 Speaker 1: the union was kind of like a facilitation tool rather 2068 01:57:48,240 --> 01:57:50,040 Speaker 1: than like the thing that got it done. I think 2069 01:57:50,080 --> 01:57:51,480 Speaker 1: that's the other thing is that there are people who 2070 01:57:51,520 --> 01:57:54,360 Speaker 1: think that like it's all dependent on like having like 2071 01:57:54,400 --> 01:57:58,640 Speaker 1: this hero staffer sort of thing situation, and at the 2072 01:57:58,720 --> 01:58:00,600 Speaker 1: end of the day, like if it's out the workers 2073 01:58:00,640 --> 01:58:06,840 Speaker 1: doing it themselves, nothing's going to happen. Yeah. Yeah, the power, 2074 01:58:06,960 --> 01:58:09,240 Speaker 1: the power is with the working class itself, and if 2075 01:58:09,240 --> 01:58:13,080 Speaker 1: the working class doesn't use it, nothing will ever happen. Yeah, 2076 01:58:13,120 --> 01:58:16,000 Speaker 1: but if it does use it, I will trail off here. 2077 01:58:18,480 --> 01:58:22,080 Speaker 1: Sounds good. So, John, is is there any place that 2078 01:58:22,120 --> 01:58:27,120 Speaker 1: you want people to find things that you do? Like, Yeah, 2079 01:58:28,360 --> 01:58:32,320 Speaker 1: I used to be on Twitter. UM periodically will show 2080 01:58:32,440 --> 01:58:37,920 Speaker 1: up on h varn vlog, which is uh see Derek 2081 01:58:38,000 --> 01:58:44,240 Speaker 1: Varnes m vlog on YouTube. UM there's I recommend people 2082 01:58:45,320 --> 01:58:48,360 Speaker 1: h listen to. There's a group of podcasts called the 2083 01:58:48,360 --> 01:58:55,080 Speaker 1: Emancipatient Network. I really like their stuff, specially UM. There's 2084 01:58:55,200 --> 01:58:58,200 Speaker 1: a what's it called General Intellect Unit which talks about 2085 01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:02,240 Speaker 1: like cybernetics and the lab. UM. They have a lot 2086 01:59:02,280 --> 01:59:05,080 Speaker 1: of particularly cool stuff that's just come out recently about 2087 01:59:05,240 --> 01:59:08,120 Speaker 1: UM about strategy that I think is really important for 2088 01:59:08,120 --> 01:59:12,160 Speaker 1: everyone to understand. UM. I was a founding member of 2089 01:59:12,320 --> 01:59:16,000 Speaker 1: the uh Libertarian Socialist Caucus at d s A, but 2090 01:59:16,040 --> 01:59:19,120 Speaker 1: I'm no longer in d s A. There's a but 2091 01:59:19,240 --> 01:59:21,400 Speaker 1: that group is still kind of kicking around. We're coming 2092 01:59:21,480 --> 01:59:25,080 Speaker 1: up with new things. Uh. Then then I guess like, UM, 2093 01:59:25,240 --> 01:59:29,360 Speaker 1: the University Chicago Labor Council is a group that I 2094 01:59:29,400 --> 01:59:32,320 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time with. And there's also a 2095 01:59:32,320 --> 01:59:34,680 Speaker 1: Tennants United High Park with LAN, which is a tenant 2096 01:59:34,720 --> 01:59:42,400 Speaker 1: union that you helped set up. And yeah, so you know, UM, 2097 01:59:42,600 --> 01:59:45,520 Speaker 1: go out there and you know, don't don't listen to 2098 01:59:45,520 --> 01:59:48,200 Speaker 1: me or don't try and find follow me. Go like 2099 01:59:48,880 --> 01:59:51,120 Speaker 1: you go figure it out and you're our neighborhood and yeah, 2100 01:59:51,560 --> 01:59:53,760 Speaker 1: and set up a mill, set up a million different 2101 01:59:53,800 --> 01:59:57,120 Speaker 1: you know, like labor councils and worker committees and tenant 2102 01:59:57,200 --> 02:00:01,560 Speaker 1: unions that. Yeah, like Bill, build power. That's why I 2103 02:00:01,560 --> 02:00:04,760 Speaker 1: think I sometimes we are afraid of the term power. 2104 02:00:04,800 --> 02:00:08,160 Speaker 1: I think that power is that it's best when it's everybody. 2105 02:00:08,240 --> 02:00:09,920 Speaker 1: And so I guess I might say it's like, go 2106 02:00:09,960 --> 02:00:14,000 Speaker 1: out there and build community and worker power, and um, 2107 02:00:14,360 --> 02:00:18,480 Speaker 1: don't be afraid because fear is the one thing that 2108 02:00:18,520 --> 02:00:22,560 Speaker 1: they've got to wave over our heads. And sometimes you 2109 02:00:22,680 --> 02:00:24,880 Speaker 1: just got to take that jump and do the thing. 2110 02:00:25,120 --> 02:00:27,440 Speaker 1: And uh and that's how we're hopefully going to win 2111 02:00:27,520 --> 02:00:31,040 Speaker 1: one day in the world. Yep. And you can do 2112 02:00:31,120 --> 02:00:33,960 Speaker 1: this just like all of these things, everything we've been 2113 02:00:33,960 --> 02:00:37,760 Speaker 1: talking about for the past like two hours, these were 2114 02:00:37,800 --> 02:00:41,160 Speaker 1: all just done by ordinary people. Like there's there's there's 2115 02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:43,560 Speaker 1: it's all it's all done my random people. And you 2116 02:00:43,560 --> 02:00:46,240 Speaker 1: know that random person can be you. You just have 2117 02:00:46,320 --> 02:00:52,440 Speaker 1: to go and do go do the thing. Yeah. So yeah, 2118 02:00:52,480 --> 02:00:55,840 Speaker 1: this that this has been It could happen here. You 2119 02:00:55,880 --> 02:00:58,400 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at Happened Here pod and 2120 02:00:58,440 --> 02:01:03,400 Speaker 1: also on Instagram. There and Uh, yeah, there's other cool 2121 02:01:03,440 --> 02:01:06,960 Speaker 1: Zone stuff. Oh, I guess yeah, we there's there's there's 2122 02:01:06,960 --> 02:01:09,360 Speaker 1: a new show called Mega Corp that that we have 2123 02:01:09,680 --> 02:01:12,480 Speaker 1: that's about how corporations are bad and the first seasons 2124 02:01:12,480 --> 02:01:16,040 Speaker 1: about Amazon. It's out now. Okay, it just doesn't have 2125 02:01:16,160 --> 02:01:19,080 Speaker 1: a Twitter, but yeah, it's It's called Mega Corp. And 2126 02:01:19,080 --> 02:01:34,560 Speaker 1: you can find it wherever fine podcasts are distributed. Yes, okay, bye. 2127 02:01:39,880 --> 02:01:43,680 Speaker 1: The art world it is essentially a money laundering business. 2128 02:01:44,200 --> 02:01:46,960 Speaker 1: The best fakes are still hanging off people's walls. You know, 2129 02:01:47,080 --> 02:01:50,600 Speaker 1: they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes. I'm 2130 02:01:50,600 --> 02:01:55,000 Speaker 1: out like Baldwin. And this is a podcast about deception, greed, 2131 02:01:55,120 --> 02:01:58,440 Speaker 1: and forgery in the art world. You knew the painting 2132 02:01:58,520 --> 02:02:05,560 Speaker 1: was fake. Um. Listen to Art Fraud starting February one 2133 02:02:05,760 --> 02:02:09,720 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 2134 02:02:09,960 --> 02:02:21,400 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. I'm Evrodsky, author of the New 2135 02:02:21,480 --> 02:02:24,680 Speaker 1: York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 2136 02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:28,800 Speaker 1: activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 2137 02:02:29,040 --> 02:02:32,480 Speaker 1: And I'm Dr Addina Rukar, a Harvard physician and medical 2138 02:02:32,480 --> 02:02:35,800 Speaker 1: correspondent with an expertise and the science of stress, resilience, 2139 02:02:35,920 --> 02:02:39,080 Speaker 1: mental health, and burnout. We're so excited to share our 2140 02:02:39,120 --> 02:02:42,680 Speaker 1: podcast Time Out, a production of I Heart Podcasts and 2141 02:02:42,760 --> 02:02:46,280 Speaker 1: Hell of Sunshine. We're uncovering why society makes it so 2142 02:02:46,360 --> 02:02:48,680 Speaker 1: hard for women to treat their time with the value 2143 02:02:48,680 --> 02:02:52,280 Speaker 1: it deserves. So take this time out with us. Listen 2144 02:02:52,320 --> 02:02:55,080 Speaker 1: to Time Out, a fair play podcast on the I 2145 02:02:55,200 --> 02:02:59,560 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 2146 02:03:06,600 --> 02:03:10,120 Speaker 1: Welcome everybody too. It could happen here. UM podcast about 2147 02:03:10,600 --> 02:03:12,440 Speaker 1: I don't know how things are kind of kind of 2148 02:03:12,520 --> 02:03:14,960 Speaker 1: kind of crumbling and how we can maybe put it, 2149 02:03:14,960 --> 02:03:18,280 Speaker 1: put stuff, put stuff back together. And today I am 2150 02:03:18,280 --> 02:03:22,440 Speaker 1: excited to talk with a senior Let's see what is 2151 02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:24,960 Speaker 1: what is what? What is the actual? What's actual term? 2152 02:03:25,000 --> 02:03:34,520 Speaker 1: I saw it? A senior programs strategist at Wikimedia, Alex Stinson. Hello, greetings, Hi, 2153 02:03:34,800 --> 02:03:37,520 Speaker 1: it's so good to be here. I'm very excited about 2154 02:03:37,520 --> 02:03:40,080 Speaker 1: our talk today because I mean, this should this should 2155 02:03:40,160 --> 02:03:43,720 Speaker 1: surprise nobody that I used to I used to be 2156 02:03:43,800 --> 02:03:47,760 Speaker 1: a Wikipedia editor back in the day. Not not shocking 2157 02:03:47,800 --> 02:03:51,440 Speaker 1: at all, if if, if you know me. Um, but yeah, 2158 02:03:51,520 --> 02:03:54,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about what kind of Wikipedia just 2159 02:03:54,800 --> 02:03:59,440 Speaker 1: itself and then also, uh, climate misinformation and disinformation and 2160 02:03:59,480 --> 02:04:03,320 Speaker 1: how we can maybe create a better understanding of climate 2161 02:04:03,400 --> 02:04:05,800 Speaker 1: change in its effects across kind of the world, and 2162 02:04:05,840 --> 02:04:08,640 Speaker 1: how digital information works. Those are all kind of topics 2163 02:04:08,680 --> 02:04:12,960 Speaker 1: we talk about often enough, but never within the actual 2164 02:04:13,000 --> 02:04:17,120 Speaker 1: context of like Wikipedia as an entity. Um, so I 2165 02:04:17,120 --> 02:04:19,840 Speaker 1: guess let's let's just start there with with Wikipedia, and 2166 02:04:19,960 --> 02:04:22,920 Speaker 1: like for those who don't maybe maybe people like use website, 2167 02:04:22,960 --> 02:04:24,320 Speaker 1: but they're not quite sure what it is, Like how 2168 02:04:24,360 --> 02:04:27,160 Speaker 1: how do you actually describe what Wikipedia is? Because it 2169 02:04:27,280 --> 02:04:31,240 Speaker 1: is like an interesting kind of amorphous entity. It's so 2170 02:04:31,320 --> 02:04:34,560 Speaker 1: many things. Um. I think most people are used to 2171 02:04:34,760 --> 02:04:37,520 Speaker 1: thinking about Wikipedia is like the fact checking device. Like 2172 02:04:37,680 --> 02:04:40,080 Speaker 1: I have a bar argument with my friends and I 2173 02:04:40,120 --> 02:04:45,160 Speaker 1: pull out my phone and yeah, yeahs website at me. Right, Um, 2174 02:04:45,480 --> 02:04:49,800 Speaker 1: it's a lot of things. It's three language Wikipedia's. Actually 2175 02:04:49,840 --> 02:04:52,680 Speaker 1: it's not just one. Each of these communities has its 2176 02:04:52,720 --> 02:04:57,160 Speaker 1: own editorial community. Um. Last I checked, it's like sixty 2177 02:04:57,200 --> 02:05:00,840 Speaker 1: million articles across the languages. It's it's really it's a 2178 02:05:00,920 --> 02:05:04,280 Speaker 1: lot of different content. Um. And a topic can be 2179 02:05:04,400 --> 02:05:07,520 Speaker 1: on each of those Wikipedia's right. Um, And this is 2180 02:05:07,760 --> 02:05:10,480 Speaker 1: important as we start talking about disinformation, is like each 2181 02:05:10,520 --> 02:05:13,800 Speaker 1: Wikipedia because it's edited by people in that language, and 2182 02:05:13,840 --> 02:05:17,800 Speaker 1: it's written by that language community. Um. You know, each 2183 02:05:17,880 --> 02:05:21,760 Speaker 1: article is different and it have different perspectives. Um. Two 2184 02:05:21,840 --> 02:05:26,320 Speaker 1: hundred eighty thousand volunteers editing every month. So this is 2185 02:05:26,360 --> 02:05:29,720 Speaker 1: a lot of people, right. But the bulk of that's 2186 02:05:29,760 --> 02:05:33,720 Speaker 1: happening on English Wikipedia and some of the larger languages 2187 02:05:33,800 --> 02:05:37,320 Speaker 1: that are spoken across multiple cultural context And then there's 2188 02:05:37,320 --> 02:05:40,760 Speaker 1: also a lot of other content sitting behind Wikipedia. So 2189 02:05:40,800 --> 02:05:44,720 Speaker 1: there's a media repository, um. And there's a we called 2190 02:05:44,760 --> 02:05:50,000 Speaker 1: Wikimedia Commons, and there's a database called wiki Data, which 2191 02:05:50,080 --> 02:05:52,680 Speaker 1: kind of powers those little knowledge graphs on the right 2192 02:05:52,720 --> 02:05:55,320 Speaker 1: side of Google and a whole bunch of other parts 2193 02:05:55,360 --> 02:06:00,080 Speaker 1: of the Internet. Wikidata shows up in Amazon, Alexa and 2194 02:06:00,280 --> 02:06:02,840 Speaker 1: all kinds of other places, right. And and so it's 2195 02:06:02,880 --> 02:06:06,320 Speaker 1: it's we're not just like one website. It's many websites, 2196 02:06:06,600 --> 02:06:10,840 Speaker 1: lots of knowledge, lots of platforms, lots of context. Um. 2197 02:06:11,080 --> 02:06:14,240 Speaker 1: And we'll come back to that more as we talked. Yeah, 2198 02:06:14,240 --> 02:06:16,280 Speaker 1: what really interesting part of it is like I don't know, 2199 02:06:16,400 --> 02:06:21,720 Speaker 1: my my personal kind of social leanings. I generally kind 2200 02:06:21,720 --> 02:06:26,240 Speaker 1: of like things that are more decentralized in general. Um. 2201 02:06:26,440 --> 02:06:28,960 Speaker 1: Other other hosts in the podcast are generally kind of 2202 02:06:29,520 --> 02:06:34,440 Speaker 1: on like the progressive left libertarian spectrum. Um. And one 2203 02:06:34,440 --> 02:06:38,080 Speaker 1: thing I do really appreciate about Wikipedia is is it's 2204 02:06:38,080 --> 02:06:40,600 Speaker 1: more like it's it's not I I don't think it's 2205 02:06:40,600 --> 02:06:45,760 Speaker 1: like open source, but its the way it has decentralized 2206 02:06:45,840 --> 02:06:48,080 Speaker 1: editing and all that kind of stuff. It's just a 2207 02:06:48,120 --> 02:06:50,760 Speaker 1: really interesting model of of like what if a lot 2208 02:06:50,760 --> 02:06:53,560 Speaker 1: more stuff worked this way? And I'm not sure like 2209 02:06:53,600 --> 02:06:55,800 Speaker 1: how how much of like a decentralization focus is there, 2210 02:06:55,840 --> 02:06:59,200 Speaker 1: like consciously at people at like the foundation and people 2211 02:06:59,200 --> 02:07:01,280 Speaker 1: who try to like act really like run it behind 2212 02:07:01,280 --> 02:07:04,520 Speaker 1: the scenes and stuff. Yeah. So Wikipedia grows out of 2213 02:07:04,560 --> 02:07:07,280 Speaker 1: the like open source movement and the kind of early 2214 02:07:07,360 --> 02:07:09,640 Speaker 1: days of the Internet. Right, this idea that like knowledge 2215 02:07:09,640 --> 02:07:12,440 Speaker 1: wants to be free, technology wants to be free, software 2216 02:07:12,440 --> 02:07:15,320 Speaker 1: wants to be free. Um, let's let's use the legal 2217 02:07:15,360 --> 02:07:19,240 Speaker 1: infrastructure to like create freedom, right uh in that sense. 2218 02:07:19,400 --> 02:07:22,080 Speaker 1: And then there's also the free as in like anyone 2219 02:07:22,120 --> 02:07:25,000 Speaker 1: can edit, and then the free to like do whatever 2220 02:07:25,040 --> 02:07:27,600 Speaker 1: you want out there in the world. Um. There there's 2221 02:07:27,960 --> 02:07:30,200 Speaker 1: people are like free as in beer and free as 2222 02:07:30,240 --> 02:07:33,760 Speaker 1: in speech, right uh. And those things are those things 2223 02:07:33,760 --> 02:07:36,960 Speaker 1: are also there's they're always intention uh and they're kind 2224 02:07:36,960 --> 02:07:39,200 Speaker 1: of working. And as you can imagine, especially when you 2225 02:07:39,240 --> 02:07:44,800 Speaker 1: get outside of kind of multicultural Internet spaces like English Wikipedia, um, 2226 02:07:45,080 --> 02:07:47,880 Speaker 1: it can get challenging. Like if you're in Croatia and 2227 02:07:47,960 --> 02:07:51,920 Speaker 1: everyone is speaking Croatian, there's a very small bubble in 2228 02:07:51,960 --> 02:07:55,520 Speaker 1: which to create that Wikipedia, right, um. And so it's 2229 02:07:55,560 --> 02:07:58,839 Speaker 1: interesting in that sense. Um. I think there's also another 2230 02:07:59,160 --> 02:08:01,640 Speaker 1: part of Wikipedia that a lot of people don't see, 2231 02:08:01,640 --> 02:08:05,000 Speaker 1: which is the movement behind it. So there's the editorial communities. 2232 02:08:05,040 --> 02:08:07,760 Speaker 1: People show up and make edits. Um. But because there's 2233 02:08:07,760 --> 02:08:11,000 Speaker 1: this ideology that you're talking about, this like decentralized, like 2234 02:08:11,080 --> 02:08:13,440 Speaker 1: we need to share knowledge or culture or language on 2235 02:08:13,440 --> 02:08:18,000 Speaker 1: the Internet, there's also a whole social movement sitting behind 2236 02:08:18,040 --> 02:08:21,840 Speaker 1: the scenes. Uh. And there there's a podcast recently dot 2237 02:08:21,880 --> 02:08:25,840 Speaker 1: com The Wikipedia Story that kind of captured that the 2238 02:08:26,000 --> 02:08:29,000 Speaker 1: essence of that, um. And it's it's a lot of 2239 02:08:29,000 --> 02:08:32,680 Speaker 1: people like myself, So I started editing in high school. 2240 02:08:34,680 --> 02:08:37,440 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, one of those like, oh I know how 2241 02:08:37,440 --> 02:08:39,720 Speaker 1: to click the edit button and I figure out how 2242 02:08:39,720 --> 02:08:41,440 Speaker 1: to use the Internet and that kind of thing. But 2243 02:08:41,480 --> 02:08:45,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that like the intuitiveness of 2244 02:08:45,280 --> 02:08:47,879 Speaker 1: clicking and edit button on a piece of open source 2245 02:08:48,160 --> 02:08:52,000 Speaker 1: software to create content is just not It's not clear, right, 2246 02:08:52,040 --> 02:08:54,080 Speaker 1: And so you have to organize and invite people in 2247 02:08:54,800 --> 02:08:57,000 Speaker 1: and so we have a whole movement that does that too. 2248 02:08:57,160 --> 02:09:01,200 Speaker 1: That there's about a d organizations around the world that 2249 02:09:01,280 --> 02:09:07,440 Speaker 1: we organize events, work with libraries and museums and educational institutions, 2250 02:09:07,560 --> 02:09:11,839 Speaker 1: and so there's always this um kind of interesting dynamic 2251 02:09:11,840 --> 02:09:15,600 Speaker 1: where our values, which is this like open software platform 2252 02:09:15,920 --> 02:09:19,360 Speaker 1: stuff has also lived in our practice, in our outreach, 2253 02:09:19,480 --> 02:09:23,680 Speaker 1: like creating change through society by sharing knowledge and education. Um. 2254 02:09:23,800 --> 02:09:26,440 Speaker 1: And so I think, yeah, it's it's it's an interesting 2255 02:09:26,720 --> 02:09:29,600 Speaker 1: it's an interesting dynamic. Yeah, I think that does create 2256 02:09:29,600 --> 02:09:33,640 Speaker 1: a really oftentimes beautiful reflection. It can it can have 2257 02:09:33,640 --> 02:09:35,800 Speaker 1: some dark sides different once in a while, but it 2258 02:09:35,880 --> 02:09:37,600 Speaker 1: is it is really nice to have like kind of 2259 02:09:37,640 --> 02:09:40,960 Speaker 1: the ideology driving it being reflected in the actions of 2260 02:09:41,000 --> 02:09:44,120 Speaker 1: operating it and spreading it and that kind of thing. Um. 2261 02:09:44,160 --> 02:09:47,280 Speaker 1: So this is something we kind of briefly touched on already, 2262 02:09:47,360 --> 02:09:49,640 Speaker 1: but I think I'd like to move on to kind 2263 02:09:49,680 --> 02:09:54,520 Speaker 1: of why like how climate change and broader like social 2264 02:09:54,560 --> 02:09:58,800 Speaker 1: issues are covered on Wikipedia because you already mentioned like 2265 02:09:59,280 --> 02:10:02,520 Speaker 1: it's kind because there's not a Wikipedia, there's many based 2266 02:10:02,560 --> 02:10:05,080 Speaker 1: on different languages in places. It feels like to me, 2267 02:10:05,440 --> 02:10:08,240 Speaker 1: whenever social issues kind of get covered on Wikipedia, it's 2268 02:10:08,240 --> 02:10:10,520 Speaker 1: going to be in some part like a local reflection 2269 02:10:10,600 --> 02:10:13,480 Speaker 1: of whatever is in that area. You know, if if 2270 02:10:13,520 --> 02:10:16,800 Speaker 1: there's like a white liberal writing articles in New York, 2271 02:10:17,160 --> 02:10:20,400 Speaker 1: it's gonna be different than someone you know, halfway across 2272 02:10:20,400 --> 02:10:23,960 Speaker 1: the world writing them in you know, a much smaller country. 2273 02:10:24,040 --> 02:10:26,520 Speaker 1: Let's say, like Belarus, who's under like what I would 2274 02:10:26,560 --> 02:10:30,400 Speaker 1: call a dictatorship. Um, so that's gonna change kind of 2275 02:10:30,400 --> 02:10:33,760 Speaker 1: the nature of what people are making because of that 2276 02:10:33,840 --> 02:10:36,120 Speaker 1: kind of divide. So how how does that kind of 2277 02:10:36,160 --> 02:10:39,800 Speaker 1: crop up? And is there any like solutions to that 2278 02:10:40,200 --> 02:10:42,960 Speaker 1: or because because the because of the decentralized thing, it's like, 2279 02:10:43,120 --> 02:10:47,120 Speaker 1: how much can we like impose like who like I'm 2280 02:10:47,120 --> 02:10:49,240 Speaker 1: i'm I'm I'm not in Belarus? How much can I 2281 02:10:49,240 --> 02:10:52,760 Speaker 1: impose what I want their Wikipedia to look like? Yeah, 2282 02:10:53,120 --> 02:10:56,440 Speaker 1: there's kind of two or three dynamics you're you're touching 2283 02:10:56,440 --> 02:11:00,360 Speaker 1: on here. The first is because they're kind of an 2284 02:11:00,400 --> 02:11:03,600 Speaker 1: intention bias, Like something comes up in the news and 2285 02:11:03,640 --> 02:11:07,600 Speaker 1: our Wikipedia community like people are within minutes of breaking 2286 02:11:07,640 --> 02:11:11,080 Speaker 1: news stories are usually like editing the page, working to 2287 02:11:11,120 --> 02:11:13,760 Speaker 1: improve it. Right. Um, So if things show up in 2288 02:11:13,840 --> 02:11:18,480 Speaker 1: the you know, European American press, uh, it's very likely, 2289 02:11:18,840 --> 02:11:21,560 Speaker 1: especially something like English Wikipedia will pick up on it 2290 02:11:21,640 --> 02:11:25,640 Speaker 1: and immediately cover it. And because there are multiple perspectives 2291 02:11:25,800 --> 02:11:30,440 Speaker 1: in those press usually um kind of the ideological uh 2292 02:11:30,640 --> 02:11:34,360 Speaker 1: kind of multi sided nice like works itself out because 2293 02:11:34,360 --> 02:11:36,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of eyes and a lot of people 2294 02:11:36,240 --> 02:11:40,600 Speaker 1: who know how to edit there, right, um on in 2295 02:11:40,760 --> 02:11:45,800 Speaker 1: a kind of cultural linguistic geographic context where there's like 2296 02:11:46,160 --> 02:11:48,920 Speaker 1: one set of stories and there's not a lot of diversity. 2297 02:11:49,480 --> 02:11:52,440 Speaker 1: Um uh, this this happens. And and I'm going to 2298 02:11:52,560 --> 02:11:55,080 Speaker 1: refer to the Croattion Wikipedia because we actually had an 2299 02:11:55,080 --> 02:11:59,040 Speaker 1: external researcher look at Croatian Wikipedia, because part of it 2300 02:11:59,080 --> 02:12:02,960 Speaker 1: has been caught by by folks with kind of very 2301 02:12:02,960 --> 02:12:06,920 Speaker 1: ideological leanings in a way that's excluding others. And this 2302 02:12:07,000 --> 02:12:09,480 Speaker 1: is not good, right. It creates a very one sided 2303 02:12:09,520 --> 02:12:14,280 Speaker 1: information environment and it really reflects um kind of the 2304 02:12:14,320 --> 02:12:18,360 Speaker 1: news dynamic going on there. So when like breaking news happens, 2305 02:12:18,480 --> 02:12:21,040 Speaker 1: or when a topic like a social issue or not 2306 02:12:21,160 --> 02:12:23,320 Speaker 1: necess like climate change, is not a social issue, right, 2307 02:12:23,360 --> 02:12:28,920 Speaker 1: this is a global, like life threatening issue. UM. When 2308 02:12:29,000 --> 02:12:33,080 Speaker 1: when something becomes politicized, it's very easy for especially in 2309 02:12:33,120 --> 02:12:35,760 Speaker 1: smaller language wikipedias, for a few people to kind of 2310 02:12:36,000 --> 02:12:41,640 Speaker 1: swing the whole perspective on that. UM. So yeah, there's 2311 02:12:41,680 --> 02:12:44,240 Speaker 1: this breaking news issue and this is where are kind 2312 02:12:44,240 --> 02:12:47,840 Speaker 1: of organized communities are really important. So the example we 2313 02:12:47,880 --> 02:12:51,000 Speaker 1: when I point out of this working well, UM is 2314 02:12:51,040 --> 02:12:54,440 Speaker 1: in medicine. So are our medical community during the Bola 2315 02:12:54,520 --> 02:12:59,000 Speaker 1: outbreaks a few years back. UM in West Africa. We're 2316 02:12:59,040 --> 02:13:03,560 Speaker 1: able to organize both on English and then languages that 2317 02:13:03,600 --> 02:13:07,400 Speaker 1: were accessible for local communities, high quality coverage of the 2318 02:13:07,440 --> 02:13:11,200 Speaker 1: medical content because it's like has impact on people's lives, 2319 02:13:11,320 --> 02:13:14,960 Speaker 1: and so they recruited translators. They thought about, like what's 2320 02:13:14,960 --> 02:13:18,920 Speaker 1: a simple way to communicate the story, um in that context, 2321 02:13:19,040 --> 02:13:23,200 Speaker 1: and like what do the workers, the or the advocates 2322 02:13:23,320 --> 02:13:26,240 Speaker 1: or whoever on the ground who's working with that crisis, 2323 02:13:26,840 --> 02:13:29,960 Speaker 1: what knowledge do they need? Right? UM? And you see 2324 02:13:30,080 --> 02:13:34,280 Speaker 1: like other open technology movements do stuff like this, like 2325 02:13:34,400 --> 02:13:38,160 Speaker 1: humanitarian Open Streetmap has a similar kind of way of organizing. 2326 02:13:38,200 --> 02:13:42,400 Speaker 1: They're like, hey, there's a crisis happening, UM, let's pull 2327 02:13:42,480 --> 02:13:44,840 Speaker 1: people together from different parts of the world who have 2328 02:13:44,960 --> 02:13:49,720 Speaker 1: the right knowledge or skills and like address the knowledge gap. Um. 2329 02:13:49,920 --> 02:13:53,600 Speaker 1: So so you can solve it. It's just it's complicated. Um. 2330 02:13:53,760 --> 02:13:56,360 Speaker 1: And you know, we've been trying to address as a 2331 02:13:56,400 --> 02:13:59,320 Speaker 1: movement what we call the gender gap. So there's both 2332 02:13:59,360 --> 02:14:03,960 Speaker 1: less women editors as women's content on many of the wikis, 2333 02:14:04,040 --> 02:14:08,120 Speaker 1: and like, it's taken years, and it's very hard to organize, 2334 02:14:08,680 --> 02:14:12,480 Speaker 1: and even when there's investment in it, um, it's it's 2335 02:14:12,600 --> 02:14:16,280 Speaker 1: challenging to to make substantial progress because there might be 2336 02:14:16,320 --> 02:14:19,480 Speaker 1: contextual issues around it too. And so you can't just 2337 02:14:19,600 --> 02:14:24,160 Speaker 1: like drop in on a Central Asian language with a 2338 02:14:24,760 --> 02:14:28,920 Speaker 1: like Western perspective and expect to like change the culture 2339 02:14:28,920 --> 02:14:31,240 Speaker 1: of the wiki overnight. You have to engage with it 2340 02:14:31,320 --> 02:14:34,920 Speaker 1: consistently and be persistent and work on it over and 2341 02:14:34,960 --> 02:14:37,280 Speaker 1: over and over again. We are going to take a 2342 02:14:37,440 --> 02:14:41,360 Speaker 1: short break to hear a message from our lovely lovely 2343 02:14:41,400 --> 02:14:47,360 Speaker 1: advertisers unless it's exomobile again, but we will be back shortly, Okay, 2344 02:14:47,440 --> 02:14:52,480 Speaker 1: and we're back. Um. One one thing that we cover decently. 2345 02:14:52,640 --> 02:14:55,920 Speaker 1: Part of my job and and and and Robert Evans's 2346 02:14:56,440 --> 02:15:00,040 Speaker 1: job is disinformation and misinformation and how that's to a 2347 02:15:00,160 --> 02:15:04,680 Speaker 1: tough spreads online um, particularly you usually kind of linked 2348 02:15:04,720 --> 02:15:08,160 Speaker 1: to like political extremism um or conspiracy theories or you know, 2349 02:15:08,440 --> 02:15:12,720 Speaker 1: in that general kind of bubble um. And so what 2350 02:15:12,720 --> 02:15:17,000 Speaker 1: what type of kind of climate misinformation has really been 2351 02:15:17,400 --> 02:15:21,400 Speaker 1: festering on various you know wikipedias across the world really, 2352 02:15:21,400 --> 02:15:22,840 Speaker 1: because like we were just were talking about like these 2353 02:15:22,880 --> 02:15:25,240 Speaker 1: topics and how and how and like why it happens, 2354 02:15:25,240 --> 02:15:27,960 Speaker 1: but like what are the main types of misinformation or 2355 02:15:28,040 --> 02:15:33,200 Speaker 1: disinformation that is much more like prevalent? Yeah, Um, So 2356 02:15:33,280 --> 02:15:38,000 Speaker 1: the first is just kind of neglect of uh, content 2357 02:15:38,440 --> 02:15:42,200 Speaker 1: that's happening across the various things related to climate. Um. 2358 02:15:42,240 --> 02:15:45,640 Speaker 1: But we've identified on English Wikipedia over three thousand seven 2359 02:15:45,880 --> 02:15:50,320 Speaker 1: dred articles that are directly related to climate change. Uh. 2360 02:15:50,480 --> 02:15:53,879 Speaker 1: We don't have a very big editorial community in English 2361 02:15:54,000 --> 02:15:57,200 Speaker 1: on that topic. That's like interesting fluent in the science 2362 02:15:57,320 --> 02:15:59,240 Speaker 1: and fluent and the other stuff. And then you go 2363 02:15:59,240 --> 02:16:02,200 Speaker 1: out to the other languages and like some of the 2364 02:16:02,280 --> 02:16:05,520 Speaker 1: languages have like three thousand of them, some of them 2365 02:16:05,560 --> 02:16:09,640 Speaker 1: have like two hundred, right, um, And so there is 2366 02:16:10,200 --> 02:16:13,640 Speaker 1: both um and some of that content was like translated 2367 02:16:13,680 --> 02:16:16,440 Speaker 1: several years ago, right or five or ten years ago 2368 02:16:16,480 --> 02:16:19,200 Speaker 1: and yeah, you know, and like the climate rhetoric has 2369 02:16:19,320 --> 02:16:23,640 Speaker 1: really changed it and like numbers and statistics, all that 2370 02:16:23,640 --> 02:16:25,960 Speaker 1: stuff gets updated every year, and it's yeah, that is 2371 02:16:26,000 --> 02:16:27,960 Speaker 1: there is there's there's a lot to cap with and 2372 02:16:28,040 --> 02:16:31,360 Speaker 1: like reading the IPCC report or looking at any of 2373 02:16:31,360 --> 02:16:34,280 Speaker 1: the consensus science, there's like a lot of change that 2374 02:16:34,320 --> 02:16:37,840 Speaker 1: you have to be influent in, like science communication, you 2375 02:16:37,879 --> 02:16:41,160 Speaker 1: have to understand like where to look for the information. Um. 2376 02:16:41,400 --> 02:16:45,200 Speaker 1: And it's interesting. My partner is a Spanish language speaker 2377 02:16:45,520 --> 02:16:49,000 Speaker 1: and she was in a kind of workshop for journalists 2378 02:16:49,360 --> 02:16:55,080 Speaker 1: in Argentina for a climate communication and the workshop was like, oh, 2379 02:16:55,160 --> 02:16:59,199 Speaker 1: you should cite the Guardian, right, so even as to 2380 02:16:59,200 --> 02:17:01,520 Speaker 1: to kind of understand and this climate stuff. So a 2381 02:17:01,560 --> 02:17:05,520 Speaker 1: lot of these local language contexts, there aren't even good sources, 2382 02:17:05,879 --> 02:17:08,560 Speaker 1: and the sources they do have are often citing like 2383 02:17:08,800 --> 02:17:12,160 Speaker 1: the dominant narrative that's going on and like the anglophone 2384 02:17:12,160 --> 02:17:15,920 Speaker 1: news cycle, right, because there's not a lot of climate 2385 02:17:15,920 --> 02:17:18,560 Speaker 1: communication going on, and so there's just a lot of 2386 02:17:18,680 --> 02:17:24,120 Speaker 1: complexity involved in updating that much content all the time. Um. 2387 02:17:24,200 --> 02:17:26,800 Speaker 1: And so the bulk of the stuff that kind of 2388 02:17:26,800 --> 02:17:29,680 Speaker 1: creeps in is like this neglect. Right. It's like some 2389 02:17:29,959 --> 02:17:33,480 Speaker 1: dominant idea in the narrative just hasn't been updated, and 2390 02:17:33,560 --> 02:17:36,000 Speaker 1: like we need someone to update it. Um. And that's 2391 02:17:36,040 --> 02:17:39,440 Speaker 1: like an organizing problem, right, that's uh, Like we need 2392 02:17:39,480 --> 02:17:42,320 Speaker 1: more people who are science literate, who speak the local language, 2393 02:17:42,400 --> 02:17:45,480 Speaker 1: who understand how to edit Wikipedia. Um. And that's trainable, 2394 02:17:45,600 --> 02:17:48,400 Speaker 1: Like we can do that. Yeah. The reason that matters, 2395 02:17:48,520 --> 02:17:51,640 Speaker 1: the neglect matters is it stops people from making decisions 2396 02:17:51,680 --> 02:17:55,320 Speaker 1: about climate change because they don't have like an accurate 2397 02:17:55,400 --> 02:17:58,640 Speaker 1: sense of what we need to do, right, which is 2398 02:17:59,120 --> 02:18:05,320 Speaker 1: cut the falsephiel, increase increased resilience, do adaptation like actual 2399 02:18:05,520 --> 02:18:10,040 Speaker 1: political change right um. And so so that that's just 2400 02:18:10,400 --> 02:18:13,200 Speaker 1: it's a problem. Um. The other stuff is a bit 2401 02:18:13,240 --> 02:18:17,120 Speaker 1: more it's a little bit more complicated. Um. One of 2402 02:18:17,160 --> 02:18:22,520 Speaker 1: the things that happens is, as you know, there's quite 2403 02:18:22,680 --> 02:18:26,720 Speaker 1: a manipulation of narrative that has happened around climate change. 2404 02:18:27,120 --> 02:18:32,520 Speaker 1: There's this really great podcast by Amy Westervelt about how 2405 02:18:32,560 --> 02:18:35,760 Speaker 1: the fossil fuel industry like got its message into schools 2406 02:18:35,920 --> 02:18:38,600 Speaker 1: in the last three years in the US, and like 2407 02:18:39,000 --> 02:18:41,960 Speaker 1: that narrative is just so prevalent and so one of 2408 02:18:42,000 --> 02:18:45,039 Speaker 1: the things about wikipedias that we try to do a 2409 02:18:45,120 --> 02:18:51,400 Speaker 1: balance of positions. If there are reputable sources kind of 2410 02:18:51,480 --> 02:18:54,879 Speaker 1: describing or analyzing a topic, and this is back to 2411 02:18:54,879 --> 02:19:00,280 Speaker 1: your polarization question too. If they're reputable sources does gribing 2412 02:19:00,280 --> 02:19:02,440 Speaker 1: on topic, we try to give them equal weight and 2413 02:19:02,560 --> 02:19:07,039 Speaker 1: balance across the article. The problem with climate is that 2414 02:19:07,120 --> 02:19:11,280 Speaker 1: some of the narratives that look like reputable sources are 2415 02:19:11,400 --> 02:19:16,160 Speaker 1: just pumped out of fossil fuel industry funded think tanks, right, 2416 02:19:16,640 --> 02:19:20,640 Speaker 1: and these things are not truthful narratives, right. Um. And 2417 02:19:20,760 --> 02:19:24,800 Speaker 1: so the BBC ran an article, uh two weeks ago 2418 02:19:25,640 --> 02:19:28,800 Speaker 1: on kind of climate denial and some of these smaller languages, 2419 02:19:29,720 --> 02:19:34,160 Speaker 1: a smaller language wikipedias, and what they found was a 2420 02:19:34,200 --> 02:19:37,480 Speaker 1: lot of these narratives being given equal weight with the 2421 02:19:37,520 --> 02:19:41,960 Speaker 1: climate science. Um. And I took a look our community 2422 02:19:42,040 --> 02:19:45,520 Speaker 1: after that BBC article came out, started looking across all 2423 02:19:45,560 --> 02:19:49,080 Speaker 1: the language Wikipedia articles about just the main climate change page, 2424 02:19:49,480 --> 02:19:54,200 Speaker 1: and they found thirty one Wikipedia's that had some of 2425 02:19:54,240 --> 02:20:00,600 Speaker 1: that like equal weight of bad climate science. Interesting. Yeah, um, 2426 02:20:00,720 --> 02:20:03,600 Speaker 1: And you know the BBC article only found like five 2427 02:20:03,680 --> 02:20:07,520 Speaker 1: or ten, right, we found another lot a lot more yeah, yeah, yeah. 2428 02:20:07,600 --> 02:20:11,840 Speaker 1: And so it's it's like it's a really like these 2429 02:20:11,879 --> 02:20:14,840 Speaker 1: narratives just seep in and you know, again, I'm gonna 2430 02:20:14,879 --> 02:20:19,200 Speaker 1: go back to the Croatian example, Like if your media 2431 02:20:19,320 --> 02:20:24,040 Speaker 1: environment has been locked down by a certain political rhetoric, too, 2432 02:20:24,920 --> 02:20:28,560 Speaker 1: those narratives might have traveled from like the Anglo sphere 2433 02:20:29,320 --> 02:20:34,560 Speaker 1: into these other spaces and then gotten stuck, right, and 2434 02:20:34,640 --> 02:20:40,000 Speaker 1: it's just like keeps getting recycled, and so that causes delay. Um. 2435 02:20:40,040 --> 02:20:44,560 Speaker 1: And I was listening to your podcasts recently about soft 2436 02:20:44,600 --> 02:20:49,800 Speaker 1: climate denial, Like this is what's happening in other language environments, right, 2437 02:20:50,000 --> 02:20:54,840 Speaker 1: is people are rehearsing this misinformation. It seems like a 2438 02:20:54,920 --> 02:21:00,000 Speaker 1: valid position because it's been rehearsed so many times by 2439 02:21:00,040 --> 02:21:03,560 Speaker 1: by folks. Some people who are championing that position are 2440 02:21:04,000 --> 02:21:08,160 Speaker 1: like doing so unknowingly, and then the process, we're kind 2441 02:21:08,160 --> 02:21:11,560 Speaker 1: of disconnecting it entirely from the source of the information. 2442 02:21:12,000 --> 02:21:16,720 Speaker 1: And that is just it's it's really bad. One interesting 2443 02:21:16,800 --> 02:21:19,840 Speaker 1: thing that I thought of when you were bringing up 2444 02:21:20,120 --> 02:21:22,960 Speaker 1: like sourcing, how sourcing itself coming an issue in like 2445 02:21:23,040 --> 02:21:25,680 Speaker 1: in the States. There's kind of like a joke that 2446 02:21:25,720 --> 02:21:29,120 Speaker 1: like wicked, like when people use just Wikipedia as like 2447 02:21:29,200 --> 02:21:31,200 Speaker 1: as a source to be like they just they just 2448 02:21:31,280 --> 02:21:33,560 Speaker 1: link the article. But like that is the default for 2449 02:21:33,600 --> 02:21:36,080 Speaker 1: so many people when they begin begin a research project, 2450 02:21:36,160 --> 02:21:38,000 Speaker 1: is like, Okay, what's the what's the what is what 2451 02:21:38,040 --> 02:21:41,440 Speaker 1: does Wikipedia have on it? What's the sources Wikipedia uses? 2452 02:21:42,000 --> 02:21:44,080 Speaker 1: Um and kind of branch off from there. It's a 2453 02:21:44,160 --> 02:21:47,039 Speaker 1: very common thing. So I'm not sure what like how 2454 02:21:47,200 --> 02:21:49,600 Speaker 1: different internet culture will be different in in other countries, 2455 02:21:49,920 --> 02:21:53,199 Speaker 1: But if they do not, if they if they don't 2456 02:21:53,240 --> 02:21:57,360 Speaker 1: have like the base sourcing necessary to create like a 2457 02:21:57,400 --> 02:22:01,200 Speaker 1: decent home page article, then just sourcing from Wikipedia in 2458 02:22:01,200 --> 02:22:04,320 Speaker 1: the first place becomes so much harder. Um, because you 2459 02:22:05,160 --> 02:22:07,920 Speaker 1: were saying, like just use the Guardian is is like 2460 02:22:08,040 --> 02:22:10,360 Speaker 1: one of the things, like that's not horrible advice, but 2461 02:22:10,360 --> 02:22:12,680 Speaker 1: if it's only just from one thing, then that that's 2462 02:22:12,680 --> 02:22:15,840 Speaker 1: going to change the entire nature of like coverage and 2463 02:22:15,920 --> 02:22:19,320 Speaker 1: information on specific topics. Yeah. Yeah, I've had just be 2464 02:22:19,440 --> 02:22:21,680 Speaker 1: really interesting kind of thing that I never thought of 2465 02:22:21,720 --> 02:22:27,120 Speaker 1: before is how different countries wikipedias or like language with 2466 02:22:27,120 --> 02:22:30,320 Speaker 1: Wikipedia's will have will have like different sources. So then 2467 02:22:30,560 --> 02:22:33,480 Speaker 1: getting information from from the page it's just going to 2468 02:22:33,600 --> 02:22:36,640 Speaker 1: be so different. And like yeah, like like the whole, 2469 02:22:36,640 --> 02:22:41,600 Speaker 1: like the whole like teared of sourcing is just completely changed. Yeah, 2470 02:22:41,680 --> 02:22:44,480 Speaker 1: And and I think, like you know, in medicine, and 2471 02:22:44,560 --> 02:22:48,400 Speaker 1: most medical practitioners expect most of the medical literature to 2472 02:22:48,480 --> 02:22:51,240 Speaker 1: be in a handful of languages like English and Chinese 2473 02:22:51,240 --> 02:22:53,640 Speaker 1: and that kind of stuff, right, And like part of 2474 02:22:53,680 --> 02:22:57,080 Speaker 1: your professional work and part of like saving people's lives 2475 02:22:57,280 --> 02:22:59,560 Speaker 1: is being able to use those sources. And so if 2476 02:22:59,560 --> 02:23:03,119 Speaker 1: they metical Wikipedia article has a translation from like an 2477 02:23:03,120 --> 02:23:07,760 Speaker 1: English article into another language, and you're distributing that to 2478 02:23:07,920 --> 02:23:10,920 Speaker 1: medical practitioners and they find the citation and it's in 2479 02:23:11,000 --> 02:23:13,800 Speaker 1: English and they can go follow the source, Like that's 2480 02:23:13,840 --> 02:23:16,200 Speaker 1: not such a big deal. But with in a topic 2481 02:23:16,240 --> 02:23:20,400 Speaker 1: like climate UM, where the vast majority of the people 2482 02:23:20,440 --> 02:23:23,640 Speaker 1: that have to make decisions on this information do not 2483 02:23:23,800 --> 02:23:26,920 Speaker 1: have access to other languages. Maybe their access to English 2484 02:23:26,959 --> 02:23:31,160 Speaker 1: is through like machine translation Google or something like that. 2485 02:23:31,640 --> 02:23:35,320 Speaker 1: Like having not having sources in your local language, UM, 2486 02:23:36,440 --> 02:23:39,440 Speaker 1: or just having the sources that were translated from an 2487 02:23:39,480 --> 02:23:42,840 Speaker 1: English Wikipedia article, which happens a lot on these smaller 2488 02:23:42,920 --> 02:23:47,879 Speaker 1: language wikipedias, is kind of like not helpful for climate 2489 02:23:47,879 --> 02:23:51,400 Speaker 1: decision making. UM. And this is where it's UM and 2490 02:23:51,640 --> 02:23:54,320 Speaker 1: it's easy for example, and a lot of these like 2491 02:23:54,440 --> 02:23:59,520 Speaker 1: Eastern European languages or Central Asian UH languages for like 2492 02:23:59,600 --> 02:24:05,280 Speaker 1: a politically spun news site opinion about something to kind 2493 02:24:05,280 --> 02:24:08,640 Speaker 1: of creep in at the same level of of kind 2494 02:24:08,640 --> 02:24:14,800 Speaker 1: of UH validity, as as another as scientific research as 2495 02:24:14,879 --> 02:24:19,200 Speaker 1: the the you know, consensus understanding of the climate prices. 2496 02:24:20,360 --> 02:24:22,720 Speaker 1: So how how might I know we talked about like 2497 02:24:22,720 --> 02:24:26,400 Speaker 1: like trainings for like journalists and people to start editing 2498 02:24:26,400 --> 02:24:28,879 Speaker 1: Wikipedia's in their language, but like, how how do we 2499 02:24:28,959 --> 02:24:32,560 Speaker 1: kind of improve climate communication overall with open access to 2500 02:24:32,640 --> 02:24:38,520 Speaker 1: information and you know, creating more linguistic um diversity and stuff. Yeah, well, 2501 02:24:38,600 --> 02:24:42,400 Speaker 1: I think there's like a couple opportunities um in this, 2502 02:24:42,800 --> 02:24:45,640 Speaker 1: and then I there's some other misinformation I also want 2503 02:24:45,680 --> 02:24:48,280 Speaker 1: to talk about too, UM. But I think that this, 2504 02:24:48,520 --> 02:24:54,680 Speaker 1: the sourcing one is a particularly challenging one. UM. We 2505 02:24:54,760 --> 02:25:00,840 Speaker 1: need like more basic science based climate communication and more languages. 2506 02:25:01,040 --> 02:25:05,160 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying like just the the like more languages, 2507 02:25:05,200 --> 02:25:07,720 Speaker 1: like the big un languages are the ones that are 2508 02:25:07,800 --> 02:25:11,320 Speaker 1: kind of colonial across cultural languages like Spanish or French 2509 02:25:11,480 --> 02:25:14,720 Speaker 1: or Arabic or you know, all these languages that have 2510 02:25:14,800 --> 02:25:18,200 Speaker 1: been used across cultures. We also need it in local 2511 02:25:18,280 --> 02:25:21,160 Speaker 1: languages um. And we needed to be evidence based and 2512 02:25:21,200 --> 02:25:23,960 Speaker 1: we needed to be an audience based. Right. So if 2513 02:25:24,000 --> 02:25:28,800 Speaker 1: if someone is like searching online in Swahili about how 2514 02:25:28,920 --> 02:25:32,440 Speaker 1: like drought is happening in Kenya, right or Tanzania or 2515 02:25:32,800 --> 02:25:35,720 Speaker 1: or the you know they're suddenly flooding, or like I 2516 02:25:35,760 --> 02:25:39,120 Speaker 1: need to deal with X, Y and z adaptation to 2517 02:25:39,240 --> 02:25:44,200 Speaker 1: the climate crisis, um, which is by the way, what 2518 02:25:44,400 --> 02:25:47,160 Speaker 1: all of the global South is doing right now, right, like, 2519 02:25:47,200 --> 02:25:50,560 Speaker 1: the global South is having to adapt to this crisis 2520 02:25:50,920 --> 02:25:54,000 Speaker 1: that polluting countries has have made. Yeah, and we're not 2521 02:25:54,080 --> 02:25:57,560 Speaker 1: actually giving them the resources to the to the problem 2522 02:25:57,600 --> 02:26:00,840 Speaker 1: that we've caused. You Well, it's not even giving the research. 2523 02:26:00,879 --> 02:26:03,360 Speaker 1: We're not even like the people who are like, we 2524 02:26:03,400 --> 02:26:07,280 Speaker 1: want to adapt our society. We're not resourcing the folks 2525 02:26:07,520 --> 02:26:10,879 Speaker 1: on the ground who have the agency, who have the understanding, 2526 02:26:10,879 --> 02:26:12,720 Speaker 1: who know how to do the research in the context, 2527 02:26:12,840 --> 02:26:15,080 Speaker 1: who know how to do the communication in the context. Right, 2528 02:26:15,400 --> 02:26:20,400 Speaker 1: We're not even like bolstering their their request for help. Right, 2529 02:26:20,520 --> 02:26:24,760 Speaker 1: Like the the the UN Climate Conference kind of failed 2530 02:26:24,920 --> 02:26:29,520 Speaker 1: on this adaptation funding. Right, And uh, this is you know, 2531 02:26:29,760 --> 02:26:32,240 Speaker 1: this is where like a platform like Wikipedia and like 2532 02:26:32,680 --> 02:26:35,480 Speaker 1: kind of approaching this from a knowledge activist perspective where 2533 02:26:35,480 --> 02:26:40,560 Speaker 1: you're like there are people who need this knowledge to address, 2534 02:26:41,040 --> 02:26:44,400 Speaker 1: like understand what's happening around them so they can make decisions. 2535 02:26:44,760 --> 02:26:49,880 Speaker 1: That doesn't like you know, yeah, we need those kinds 2536 02:26:49,920 --> 02:26:53,280 Speaker 1: of information. We need open source knowledge, not just Wikipedia 2537 02:26:53,360 --> 02:26:57,240 Speaker 1: but one of the platforms um and and you know 2538 02:26:57,400 --> 02:27:01,039 Speaker 1: the you all do open source investation, and you're used 2539 02:27:01,080 --> 02:27:04,480 Speaker 1: to like open source software communities, and I listen a 2540 02:27:04,560 --> 02:27:07,200 Speaker 1: couple of your podcasts and you're kind of constantly speaking 2541 02:27:07,240 --> 02:27:10,040 Speaker 1: back to those open communities that that come out of 2542 02:27:10,640 --> 02:27:16,080 Speaker 1: like anglophone software spaces, um and, like we need to 2543 02:27:16,160 --> 02:27:20,240 Speaker 1: acknowledge that. Like we we figured out how to acknowledge, 2544 02:27:20,320 --> 02:27:23,360 Speaker 1: but we haven't given all those tools. We haven't transferred 2545 02:27:23,360 --> 02:27:25,520 Speaker 1: the knowledge on how to do it. We haven't adapted 2546 02:27:26,080 --> 02:27:29,040 Speaker 1: those tools to other parts of the world and other languages. 2547 02:27:29,600 --> 02:27:34,480 Speaker 1: Um And. So just like starting to look for these 2548 02:27:34,520 --> 02:27:38,720 Speaker 1: other communities, asking for the people, like who's ready to organize, 2549 02:27:38,840 --> 02:27:42,880 Speaker 1: like giving them money to go do it right, these 2550 02:27:42,920 --> 02:27:46,640 Speaker 1: things are like really practical, um And I think we're 2551 02:27:46,760 --> 02:27:49,920 Speaker 1: we're not We're not often not listening or we're not 2552 02:27:50,040 --> 02:27:53,520 Speaker 1: looking for that solution. And reinder, like most of the 2553 02:27:53,560 --> 02:27:56,720 Speaker 1: people having to adapt, um are in the global South 2554 02:27:56,959 --> 02:28:00,760 Speaker 1: and speak other languages, Like we need to be there 2555 02:28:01,080 --> 02:28:03,880 Speaker 1: in that language if we want the climate crisis so 2556 02:28:04,080 --> 02:28:13,480 Speaker 1: like resolve itself without you know, destroying people's lives. Yeah. Absolutely, Um, yeah, 2557 02:28:13,560 --> 02:28:15,720 Speaker 1: that's that's the thing we try to bring up, is 2558 02:28:15,800 --> 02:28:19,240 Speaker 1: that the people is going to be initially worse affected 2559 02:28:19,280 --> 02:28:21,880 Speaker 1: are the people who are already kind of not in 2560 02:28:21,959 --> 02:28:25,280 Speaker 1: the greatest situation in the first place. That's like how 2561 02:28:25,640 --> 02:28:28,720 Speaker 1: how like how like the areas that are gonna that 2562 02:28:28,760 --> 02:28:31,120 Speaker 1: are gonna experience the most flooding, the most extreme weather events, 2563 02:28:31,120 --> 02:28:33,200 Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff. It's it's it's not it's 2564 02:28:33,240 --> 02:28:35,800 Speaker 1: not starting with something like New York City. It's starting 2565 02:28:35,840 --> 02:28:38,320 Speaker 1: with areas that are already dealing with a lot of 2566 02:28:38,400 --> 02:28:41,520 Speaker 1: like local issues and now this is just something else 2567 02:28:41,600 --> 02:28:44,640 Speaker 1: on top. And yeah, fixing all of that is uh, 2568 02:28:46,000 --> 02:28:48,000 Speaker 1: I mean, fixing all of it's impossible. We can we 2569 02:28:48,000 --> 02:28:52,480 Speaker 1: can only take like small adaptive steps to like mitigate 2570 02:28:52,600 --> 02:28:54,960 Speaker 1: some of the worse effects. And yeah, I mean that 2571 02:28:55,000 --> 02:28:57,640 Speaker 1: that's that's stuff that comes up a bunch. But you 2572 02:28:57,920 --> 02:29:00,720 Speaker 1: you mentioned you wanted to at least briefly mention and um, 2573 02:29:00,879 --> 02:29:05,040 Speaker 1: some other forms of disinformation. Yeah. So we we've also 2574 02:29:05,320 --> 02:29:08,520 Speaker 1: witnessed a couple of times, UM where something will hit 2575 02:29:08,640 --> 02:29:12,680 Speaker 1: like breaking news or become a political position in a context, 2576 02:29:12,879 --> 02:29:15,200 Speaker 1: and then like we will see bad actors show up 2577 02:29:15,240 --> 02:29:18,240 Speaker 1: on Wikipedia and try to manipulate it. UM. I have 2578 02:29:18,360 --> 02:29:23,119 Speaker 1: two examples of those. The first is about a year 2579 02:29:23,760 --> 02:29:28,160 Speaker 1: year ago. Uh, we found a group of accounts editing 2580 02:29:28,240 --> 02:29:34,160 Speaker 1: about some of the inter Amazonian highways that the Bolsonaro 2581 02:29:35,040 --> 02:29:39,840 Speaker 1: presidency is building through through the Amazon UM where they 2582 02:29:39,879 --> 02:29:44,039 Speaker 1: were trying to remove the environmental and indigenous people's uh 2583 02:29:44,600 --> 02:29:48,840 Speaker 1: impact assessments from the Wikipedia articles. Uh and so like 2584 02:29:49,000 --> 02:29:54,640 Speaker 1: basic human rights stuff, basic you know, healthy environment things 2585 02:29:55,760 --> 02:29:58,600 Speaker 1: that the government is like expected to follow through on. 2586 02:29:59,120 --> 02:30:05,320 Speaker 1: We're being like manipulated out of the articles for a 2587 02:30:05,560 --> 02:30:09,760 Speaker 1: more like pro economic growth narrative UM. And so you 2588 02:30:09,879 --> 02:30:15,840 Speaker 1: know it's we can't like the shift towards this like 2589 02:30:16,080 --> 02:30:20,840 Speaker 1: very extreme right like economic growth only version of reality 2590 02:30:21,520 --> 02:30:23,760 Speaker 1: um does play out on the wikie Now were we 2591 02:30:23,800 --> 02:30:26,840 Speaker 1: were lucky that this was fairly trans like fairly easy 2592 02:30:26,920 --> 02:30:28,640 Speaker 1: to see once we found it, But we had to 2593 02:30:28,680 --> 02:30:34,760 Speaker 1: coordinate across UM, English, Spanish and Portuguese to like address 2594 02:30:34,959 --> 02:30:38,440 Speaker 1: the problem. So so we need like multi lingual communities 2595 02:30:38,480 --> 02:30:40,320 Speaker 1: who are kind of coordinating and talking to each other 2596 02:30:41,000 --> 02:30:43,480 Speaker 1: to address that. Um. The other thing we've seen is like, 2597 02:30:44,120 --> 02:30:47,959 Speaker 1: so did you I don't know how well you follow 2598 02:30:48,120 --> 02:30:51,440 Speaker 1: the climate movement? Um, but did you see when Disha 2599 02:30:51,560 --> 02:30:56,880 Speaker 1: rabb got arrested in India? By chance? I don't think so. 2600 02:30:57,720 --> 02:31:00,640 Speaker 1: So she She's a youth climate active that was part 2601 02:31:00,680 --> 02:31:04,000 Speaker 1: of Friday's for Future India, which is like a group 2602 02:31:04,320 --> 02:31:06,520 Speaker 1: kind of sister group of the group that formed in 2603 02:31:06,600 --> 02:31:14,360 Speaker 1: Europe around Greta Twinberg. Right. Um and uh she uh um. 2604 02:31:15,560 --> 02:31:19,800 Speaker 1: Her Gmail account got attached to a Google doc. Uh 2605 02:31:20,560 --> 02:31:23,959 Speaker 1: just seen active on a Google doc that was about 2606 02:31:24,280 --> 02:31:27,520 Speaker 1: sharing social media about the India the farmers protests in 2607 02:31:27,640 --> 02:31:31,320 Speaker 1: India which have been like a real political sticking point issue. 2608 02:31:31,959 --> 02:31:35,560 Speaker 1: And I had written so I'm both a volunteer and 2609 02:31:35,840 --> 02:31:39,040 Speaker 1: a professional who organizes the community. And in my volunteer time, 2610 02:31:39,440 --> 02:31:43,119 Speaker 1: I had written the biography Adisha Rabbi like months before 2611 02:31:44,000 --> 02:31:47,280 Speaker 1: the Indian government kind of identified her with this social 2612 02:31:47,320 --> 02:31:51,800 Speaker 1: media tool kit. And um, when she got arrested for 2613 02:31:52,120 --> 02:31:57,039 Speaker 1: something that's like just basic social organizing tactic with social media. Um, 2614 02:31:58,360 --> 02:32:04,160 Speaker 1: the kind of Hindu nationalist social media environment like zoomed 2615 02:32:04,200 --> 02:32:07,720 Speaker 1: in on her Wikipedia article and on all these other 2616 02:32:07,959 --> 02:32:12,040 Speaker 1: social media presences she had, and they tried to silence it. 2617 02:32:12,640 --> 02:32:14,800 Speaker 1: Um be like okay, we need to leave this article. 2618 02:32:15,280 --> 02:32:18,879 Speaker 1: And uh, fortunately like a group of us were watching 2619 02:32:18,959 --> 02:32:21,200 Speaker 1: the page and we caught it and we're able to 2620 02:32:21,240 --> 02:32:24,480 Speaker 1: stop that. But there's kind of the the the kind 2621 02:32:24,480 --> 02:32:27,920 Speaker 1: of flash mob situation that happens a lot now in 2622 02:32:28,200 --> 02:32:33,200 Speaker 1: social media, where it's that is, this thing has been polarized, 2623 02:32:33,400 --> 02:32:35,600 Speaker 1: now we need to go attack it. Um. And so 2624 02:32:36,240 --> 02:32:39,360 Speaker 1: you can imagine like English Wikipedia has a healthy immune 2625 02:32:39,440 --> 02:32:41,840 Speaker 1: system for this kind of stuff. It like sees it, 2626 02:32:42,160 --> 02:32:43,840 Speaker 1: but it has enough, it has enough people that it 2627 02:32:43,879 --> 02:32:47,480 Speaker 1: can do that. Yeah. Yeah, but you can imagine on 2628 02:32:47,680 --> 02:32:51,199 Speaker 1: a smaller wiki that the narrative could shift and stay 2629 02:32:51,280 --> 02:32:56,000 Speaker 1: permanently shifted quite quickly. Yeah, um, if that happened. And 2630 02:32:56,240 --> 02:32:58,520 Speaker 1: so that that's another concern. Right. So there's like the 2631 02:32:58,600 --> 02:33:01,480 Speaker 1: subtle like a few accounts just like quietly removing things 2632 02:33:01,840 --> 02:33:05,160 Speaker 1: and then like the act of political um kind of 2633 02:33:05,440 --> 02:33:08,440 Speaker 1: intervention that happens. And in terms of like disinformation, do 2634 02:33:08,480 --> 02:33:10,920 Speaker 1: you see the Wikipedia as being kind of susceptible to 2635 02:33:11,040 --> 02:33:16,560 Speaker 1: like intentional disinformation campaigns of people slowly kind of editing 2636 02:33:17,040 --> 02:33:20,280 Speaker 1: the ideology of of articles to to push kind of 2637 02:33:20,600 --> 02:33:22,960 Speaker 1: some agenda. What whether that be like individually and like 2638 02:33:23,200 --> 02:33:25,840 Speaker 1: like you know, more of like a crowd operation um 2639 02:33:26,080 --> 02:33:29,360 Speaker 1: or even like run by like people with political power. Um, 2640 02:33:29,920 --> 02:33:31,840 Speaker 1: Like do do you how much of a risk do 2641 02:33:31,920 --> 02:33:33,880 Speaker 1: you see that with this kind of open source idea 2642 02:33:33,959 --> 02:33:38,279 Speaker 1: is that of of like intentional slow dissemination of disinformation 2643 02:33:38,720 --> 02:33:43,080 Speaker 1: on like important articles and stuff. Well, so I think 2644 02:33:43,560 --> 02:33:47,280 Speaker 1: I might reframe your question a little bit, like, uh, 2645 02:33:48,080 --> 02:33:52,760 Speaker 1: all open source kind of knowledge spaces are susceptible to that, right, Um, 2646 02:33:52,840 --> 02:33:57,080 Speaker 1: the question is to like what degree and how harmful 2647 02:33:57,680 --> 02:34:00,840 Speaker 1: is it going to be? Right? Um? Like is it 2648 02:34:01,440 --> 02:34:04,160 Speaker 1: is it like very open to this? And will it 2649 02:34:04,400 --> 02:34:08,279 Speaker 1: cause a lot of problems? Um? The bigger language wikipedias 2650 02:34:08,360 --> 02:34:11,520 Speaker 1: have healthy immune systems, but we we have a combination 2651 02:34:11,560 --> 02:34:14,320 Speaker 1: of kind of bots that are like AI generated that 2652 02:34:14,480 --> 02:34:16,520 Speaker 1: flag bag edits, and then we have a lot of 2653 02:34:16,560 --> 02:34:19,760 Speaker 1: community patrolling happening. And even in some of the smaller 2654 02:34:19,840 --> 02:34:24,439 Speaker 1: communities that have like medium sized editor communities like Swedish Wikipedia, 2655 02:34:25,240 --> 02:34:28,359 Speaker 1: it doesn't take a lot for that local language community 2656 02:34:28,440 --> 02:34:32,960 Speaker 1: to patrol the pages and like be like oh, Okay, Um, 2657 02:34:33,160 --> 02:34:36,520 Speaker 1: these changes are kind of weird. I can roll it back. Um, Like, 2658 02:34:36,680 --> 02:34:40,199 Speaker 1: this doesn't seem like it fits our culture of Wikipedia. 2659 02:34:40,680 --> 02:34:44,160 Speaker 1: The problem is when a language Wikipedia has very few 2660 02:34:44,400 --> 02:34:48,480 Speaker 1: editors and they're not active all the time. Um and 2661 02:34:49,040 --> 02:34:52,840 Speaker 1: and so this is where we need kind of more 2662 02:34:52,920 --> 02:34:56,120 Speaker 1: eyes on the content, right, because it's it's very easy 2663 02:34:56,240 --> 02:34:59,360 Speaker 1: for like a really small language community to kind of 2664 02:34:59,680 --> 02:35:02,439 Speaker 1: have little bit of content but never see it maintained. 2665 02:35:03,080 --> 02:35:06,720 Speaker 1: Um and and this is where the like where where 2666 02:35:06,840 --> 02:35:09,440 Speaker 1: our communities are forming around these languages, like a lot 2667 02:35:09,520 --> 02:35:12,880 Speaker 1: of the West African languages for example, that our communities 2668 02:35:13,080 --> 02:35:16,520 Speaker 1: are are kind of organizing in we we like invest 2669 02:35:16,600 --> 02:35:20,279 Speaker 1: in those communities existing and like figuring out the governance 2670 02:35:20,440 --> 02:35:22,880 Speaker 1: and training people how to edit and getting access to 2671 02:35:22,959 --> 02:35:25,800 Speaker 1: the kind of technical skills to do this. Um And 2672 02:35:26,360 --> 02:35:30,000 Speaker 1: you know, we have kind of systems that we're hoping 2673 02:35:30,240 --> 02:35:33,080 Speaker 1: over the next few years invest in that resilience, right, 2674 02:35:33,240 --> 02:35:35,920 Speaker 1: like building a code of conduct making it easier for 2675 02:35:36,000 --> 02:35:39,320 Speaker 1: communities to see this kind of stuff. But it is 2676 02:35:39,440 --> 02:35:44,760 Speaker 1: three languages, right, um yeah, And it is a volunteer 2677 02:35:45,000 --> 02:35:49,640 Speaker 1: built system, and you do need a healthy editatorial community 2678 02:35:50,240 --> 02:35:54,840 Speaker 1: in order to keep a wiki from like drifting too much. Um. 2679 02:35:55,000 --> 02:35:57,440 Speaker 1: So a good example of listening to get a reference 2680 02:35:57,520 --> 02:36:00,480 Speaker 1: creation because it's the one we've done research on. Like 2681 02:36:01,160 --> 02:36:05,800 Speaker 1: it was possible for a few people to push people 2682 02:36:05,920 --> 02:36:09,960 Speaker 1: who are more in consensus with the global position on 2683 02:36:10,200 --> 02:36:15,600 Speaker 1: various topics out of the wiki. Um. And that's just 2684 02:36:16,120 --> 02:36:19,640 Speaker 1: like we we have to find a balance between like 2685 02:36:20,080 --> 02:36:23,480 Speaker 1: local language uh. And this is my personal opinion, right, 2686 02:36:23,879 --> 02:36:26,080 Speaker 1: we need to find a balance between kind of local 2687 02:36:26,160 --> 02:36:32,599 Speaker 1: language sovereignty on this stuff and also not like radicalizing 2688 02:36:33,760 --> 02:36:36,119 Speaker 1: its topical environment. And we and we see this particularly 2689 02:36:36,160 --> 02:36:39,760 Speaker 1: on impactful topics, right, like ones that directly affect like 2690 02:36:40,280 --> 02:36:45,119 Speaker 1: politics or in the kids climate crisis, like people's livelihoods 2691 02:36:45,280 --> 02:36:49,880 Speaker 1: and ability to function in society, right. Um. And we 2692 02:36:50,040 --> 02:36:51,840 Speaker 1: just like we need to be cautious about that. But 2693 02:36:52,120 --> 02:36:55,160 Speaker 1: but you know, Wikipedia is a common resource. Uh. And 2694 02:36:55,320 --> 02:36:58,279 Speaker 1: I think this is really important. Like the way Wikipedia 2695 02:36:58,320 --> 02:37:01,800 Speaker 1: works is you know, THEMNIA Foundation provides the servers. We 2696 02:37:01,879 --> 02:37:04,880 Speaker 1: fund our communities, we support them, we help them work 2697 02:37:04,920 --> 02:37:09,840 Speaker 1: through governance issues. But like the we need editorial communities 2698 02:37:09,879 --> 02:37:15,280 Speaker 1: to maintain it. That's what those thousand people are doing 2699 02:37:15,320 --> 02:37:18,720 Speaker 1: as volunteers as they're building an editorial practice that makes 2700 02:37:18,760 --> 02:37:23,200 Speaker 1: the content work, um and and we we need that, um. 2701 02:37:23,440 --> 02:37:27,080 Speaker 1: And so we need you know, like minded communities like 2702 02:37:27,360 --> 02:37:29,720 Speaker 1: the people for your podcasts who are like, oh, we 2703 02:37:29,800 --> 02:37:32,680 Speaker 1: need the Internet to be reliable and have accurate information 2704 02:37:32,680 --> 02:37:35,199 Speaker 1: a lot to show up, um. Because if we don't 2705 02:37:35,240 --> 02:37:39,360 Speaker 1: do that, it's it's really like it's the common resource 2706 02:37:41,440 --> 02:37:45,119 Speaker 1: we we we have a decent international listening MACE as well. UM. 2707 02:37:45,600 --> 02:37:48,480 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking like, what would would you like recommend 2708 02:37:48,600 --> 02:37:51,840 Speaker 1: people you know in different countries or even people inside 2709 02:37:51,920 --> 02:37:55,960 Speaker 1: inside kind of like, uh, you know the States, America, Canada, 2710 02:37:56,040 --> 02:37:58,959 Speaker 1: the UK who are like multi langual, would you at 2711 02:37:59,000 --> 02:38:02,879 Speaker 1: least encourage them to browse other language wikipedias and maybe 2712 02:38:02,959 --> 02:38:05,920 Speaker 1: start making edits when they see this type of misinformation 2713 02:38:06,280 --> 02:38:11,000 Speaker 1: popping up. Yeah, so I to kind of perspectives on 2714 02:38:11,120 --> 02:38:15,120 Speaker 1: this one, UM, look for a local organized community. So 2715 02:38:15,240 --> 02:38:19,119 Speaker 1: we we have what's called Wikimedia Affiliates. These are fifty 2716 02:38:19,160 --> 02:38:23,440 Speaker 1: organizations around the world. They regularly run events, especially now 2717 02:38:23,520 --> 02:38:27,240 Speaker 1: that we're leaving COVID, increasingly more in person events. They 2718 02:38:27,360 --> 02:38:31,320 Speaker 1: train folks like look for them in your context and 2719 02:38:31,440 --> 02:38:33,680 Speaker 1: if you need help finding you know, find me on 2720 02:38:33,720 --> 02:38:37,879 Speaker 1: Twitter and I can connect you with those communities. UM. 2721 02:38:38,160 --> 02:38:41,280 Speaker 1: And the other part is small edits. So I think 2722 02:38:41,320 --> 02:38:43,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people look at Wikipedia and they think 2723 02:38:43,680 --> 02:38:47,800 Speaker 1: about like a traditional publishing platform, right, like, oh, you know, 2724 02:38:47,840 --> 02:38:50,520 Speaker 1: I have to write the whole whole article. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 2725 02:38:50,520 --> 02:38:52,600 Speaker 1: I have to be a master. And and the secret 2726 02:38:52,680 --> 02:38:55,240 Speaker 1: sauce to all of this is like most people start 2727 02:38:55,320 --> 02:38:58,920 Speaker 1: with one citation, one comma, one type of fix, and 2728 02:38:59,000 --> 02:39:02,080 Speaker 1: they do a handful of those a month, and then 2729 02:39:02,120 --> 02:39:04,600 Speaker 1: they keep coming back. And as you do those small edits, 2730 02:39:04,640 --> 02:39:07,160 Speaker 1: you start reading the content more carefully and fixing the 2731 02:39:07,240 --> 02:39:10,879 Speaker 1: things you can fix. And so I I recommend going 2732 02:39:10,920 --> 02:39:13,720 Speaker 1: in to like add one citation, Like if you go 2733 02:39:13,840 --> 02:39:16,800 Speaker 1: and add one citation today, that like makes life better, 2734 02:39:17,040 --> 02:39:20,960 Speaker 1: or you fix the communication on the sentence. UM. The 2735 02:39:21,080 --> 02:39:23,440 Speaker 1: other part of it is, you know, I said there's 2736 02:39:23,480 --> 02:39:26,800 Speaker 1: these organized groups, uh for the climate in particular, I 2737 02:39:27,120 --> 02:39:30,160 Speaker 1: run this campaign called Wiki for Human Rights, which is 2738 02:39:30,280 --> 02:39:34,360 Speaker 1: focused on UM. We with it's a theme that we 2739 02:39:34,560 --> 02:39:36,520 Speaker 1: kind of identified with you and human rights on the 2740 02:39:36,640 --> 02:39:40,000 Speaker 1: right to a healthy environment, which is this new human 2741 02:39:40,160 --> 02:39:43,080 Speaker 1: right that has been acknowledged by the Human Rights Council, 2742 02:39:43,560 --> 02:39:47,560 Speaker 1: And we're we're organizing kind of writing contests and edit 2743 02:39:47,680 --> 02:39:50,440 Speaker 1: the fonds and kind of train names for communities to 2744 02:39:50,480 --> 02:39:53,280 Speaker 1: go and look for the human dimension of the climate crisis. So, 2745 02:39:53,480 --> 02:39:56,480 Speaker 1: I think when we think about climate communication, a lot 2746 02:39:56,480 --> 02:39:59,200 Speaker 1: of people are like science right there, like oh, this 2747 02:39:59,400 --> 02:40:03,160 Speaker 1: is you know about how weather systems work and how 2748 02:40:03,520 --> 02:40:06,720 Speaker 1: the atmosphere it forms, and the kind of stuff and 2749 02:40:07,320 --> 02:40:11,480 Speaker 1: the content that's more impactful is this like human inflected stuff, 2750 02:40:11,520 --> 02:40:15,640 Speaker 1: like how does the climate crisis in fact you as 2751 02:40:15,680 --> 02:40:19,040 Speaker 1: an individual and agriculture in the cities you live in, 2752 02:40:19,800 --> 02:40:24,840 Speaker 1: and the clothing you buy in the manufactured goods mine 2753 02:40:24,920 --> 02:40:29,119 Speaker 1: around the corner that's producing water pollution that's gonna harm 2754 02:40:29,160 --> 02:40:32,520 Speaker 1: your children for the next thirty years, right, um? And 2755 02:40:32,800 --> 02:40:35,880 Speaker 1: and that is the kind of stuff that we're encouraging 2756 02:40:35,920 --> 02:40:38,280 Speaker 1: communities to pay attention to. Is it is more the 2757 02:40:38,600 --> 02:40:44,400 Speaker 1: like justice and human rights oriented perspective on these topics. 2758 02:40:44,640 --> 02:40:47,960 Speaker 1: And your cat is very cute. Every once in a 2759 02:40:48,000 --> 02:40:52,400 Speaker 1: while they love to love to take the camera. Um 2760 02:40:53,320 --> 02:40:56,560 Speaker 1: and so yeah. So so if you follow me on Twitter, 2761 02:40:56,760 --> 02:40:58,960 Speaker 1: I will I can hook you up with that campaign 2762 02:40:59,200 --> 02:41:02,920 Speaker 1: as well. Um yeah, where where can people find you 2763 02:41:03,240 --> 02:41:06,080 Speaker 1: online and to learn more information about you know, the 2764 02:41:06,200 --> 02:41:10,119 Speaker 1: various kind of topics we've discussed today, So UM search 2765 02:41:10,560 --> 02:41:14,680 Speaker 1: if you're interested in climate change stuff on Wikipedia English. 2766 02:41:14,680 --> 02:41:18,560 Speaker 1: Wikipedia has a wonderful wiki project climate change that has 2767 02:41:18,760 --> 02:41:21,080 Speaker 1: a little tab at the So if you search wiki 2768 02:41:21,160 --> 02:41:24,560 Speaker 1: project climate change on Google and you find there's a 2769 02:41:24,640 --> 02:41:26,879 Speaker 1: tab at the top that says get started with easy 2770 02:41:27,080 --> 02:41:29,400 Speaker 1: edits and that kind of can get you oriented to 2771 02:41:29,560 --> 02:41:33,000 Speaker 1: like where can you affect English Wikipedia on this? And 2772 02:41:33,520 --> 02:41:35,520 Speaker 1: you know, once you find a gap on English, it's 2773 02:41:35,520 --> 02:41:39,240 Speaker 1: easy to find it on other languages. UM. For the 2774 02:41:39,360 --> 02:41:41,360 Speaker 1: kind of learning about wiki free human rights, you can 2775 02:41:41,440 --> 02:41:44,440 Speaker 1: search for that UM and or follow me on Twitter 2776 02:41:44,800 --> 02:41:49,920 Speaker 1: UM s A D A D S sad ads on Twitter. UM. UH. 2777 02:41:50,400 --> 02:41:53,840 Speaker 1: We also have a group called Wikimedians for Sustainable Development 2778 02:41:54,480 --> 02:41:57,200 Speaker 1: who's kind of communicating on Twitter, which is the group 2779 02:41:57,320 --> 02:42:01,200 Speaker 1: that's really focused on sustainability topics were generally UM, and 2780 02:42:01,560 --> 02:42:05,440 Speaker 1: you know, the other way to look is find something 2781 02:42:05,520 --> 02:42:08,560 Speaker 1: you've been reading about about the climate crisis or stainability 2782 02:42:08,600 --> 02:42:12,600 Speaker 1: issues in the news, look it up on Wikipedia, see 2783 02:42:12,640 --> 02:42:15,720 Speaker 1: if it's missing. UM. If it's not, click that edit 2784 02:42:15,760 --> 02:42:19,280 Speaker 1: button at a sence right. UM. The good example of this, 2785 02:42:19,920 --> 02:42:24,200 Speaker 1: I learned about a park and UH the center of 2786 02:42:24,320 --> 02:42:28,120 Speaker 1: Nairobi that's being protested by environmental activists because some of 2787 02:42:28,160 --> 02:42:32,360 Speaker 1: the big trees were being cut down a Huru park, 2788 02:42:33,040 --> 02:42:36,160 Speaker 1: right Uh. This came by on my Twitter handle, Like 2789 02:42:36,280 --> 02:42:39,560 Speaker 1: I'm not connected to this at the moment, right um, 2790 02:42:39,920 --> 02:42:42,520 Speaker 1: But because I had news sources, I had three or 2791 02:42:42,560 --> 02:42:44,920 Speaker 1: four news sources, I could say really simply in two 2792 02:42:45,000 --> 02:42:48,200 Speaker 1: thousand one, the park came under scrutiny for renovation that 2793 02:42:48,320 --> 02:42:53,680 Speaker 1: included removing old trees. That's a climate action, right uh. 2794 02:42:54,040 --> 02:42:57,560 Speaker 1: And I think you know, I am constantly overwhelmed by 2795 02:42:57,560 --> 02:43:01,039 Speaker 1: the climate crisis, as as is a lot of yea yeah, 2796 02:43:01,680 --> 02:43:05,160 Speaker 1: And and like just being able to tell that little story, 2797 02:43:05,800 --> 02:43:11,520 Speaker 1: like hey, um, the decisions people are making are not 2798 02:43:11,680 --> 02:43:16,680 Speaker 1: productive here, right Um. Just just gathering that story is important. 2799 02:43:16,720 --> 02:43:20,440 Speaker 1: And what's important is Wikipedia plays institutional memory on this, right. 2800 02:43:20,560 --> 02:43:22,560 Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, a lot of a lot 2801 02:43:22,600 --> 02:43:25,480 Speaker 1: of activists work is very temporal. It's very like in 2802 02:43:25,600 --> 02:43:29,040 Speaker 1: that moment, right um. And if it doesn't get documented 2803 02:43:29,040 --> 02:43:32,280 Speaker 1: on Wikipedia, the local news sources are gonna get lost 2804 02:43:32,360 --> 02:43:37,320 Speaker 1: in the window of time. Um. And so I think, 2805 02:43:37,520 --> 02:43:39,960 Speaker 1: you know, if you to do your little activist motion, 2806 02:43:40,200 --> 02:43:44,400 Speaker 1: like a sentence describing what happened in a moment where 2807 02:43:44,480 --> 02:43:48,920 Speaker 1: resistance was happening is like a huge step forward, right, um, 2808 02:43:49,120 --> 02:43:52,880 Speaker 1: because it connects the environmental crisis, clanic crisis, human rights 2809 02:43:52,920 --> 02:43:56,480 Speaker 1: issues to like daily lives. Like people look up this 2810 02:43:56,640 --> 02:44:00,560 Speaker 1: park probably on Google because they want to go there, right, 2811 02:44:00,879 --> 02:44:03,240 Speaker 1: or they read about it because people are like when 2812 02:44:03,440 --> 02:44:06,680 Speaker 1: was it created? What was that protest that happened there 2813 02:44:06,840 --> 02:44:10,000 Speaker 1: the other day? And if those sourcesn't there, um, then 2814 02:44:10,040 --> 02:44:12,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't really exist in their minds. Yeah, it doesn't 2815 02:44:12,400 --> 02:44:15,400 Speaker 1: exist in their minds. And I think that's like one 2816 02:44:15,440 --> 02:44:18,360 Speaker 1: of the big issues with climate crisis and you know, 2817 02:44:18,480 --> 02:44:23,039 Speaker 1: amplified even worse in other languages, right, is that people 2818 02:44:23,120 --> 02:44:26,240 Speaker 1: aren't making that connection. They aren't seeing it around them, 2819 02:44:26,560 --> 02:44:30,280 Speaker 1: and they're not you know, kind of connecting action to 2820 02:44:30,680 --> 02:44:35,400 Speaker 1: how we address it. That. Uh, that is a really 2821 02:44:35,480 --> 02:44:37,160 Speaker 1: good that's a really good point. And yeah, I mean 2822 02:44:37,240 --> 02:44:40,760 Speaker 1: I will encourage everybody to to start making small ledits. 2823 02:44:40,800 --> 02:44:43,240 Speaker 1: That's what's what I did for a long time before 2824 02:44:43,240 --> 02:44:47,440 Speaker 1: I moved into like open source um journalism and reporting. 2825 02:44:47,959 --> 02:44:49,800 Speaker 1: It's a great way to get started, and it's a 2826 02:44:49,959 --> 02:44:52,879 Speaker 1: great way to get just start start disseminating small bits 2827 02:44:52,920 --> 02:44:54,720 Speaker 1: of information because the only thing that we can really 2828 02:44:54,760 --> 02:44:57,960 Speaker 1: do is people is small steps. We can have like 2829 02:44:58,360 --> 02:45:01,080 Speaker 1: an adaptive goal in mind, but you need to take 2830 02:45:01,160 --> 02:45:04,800 Speaker 1: small steps to get there. And that is a really 2831 02:45:04,879 --> 02:45:07,960 Speaker 1: great way to start influencing the way people think about 2832 02:45:08,800 --> 02:45:13,560 Speaker 1: climate and our situation. Um yeah. And and I think too, 2833 02:45:13,640 --> 02:45:16,119 Speaker 1: you know, your your podcast kind of appeals to folks 2834 02:45:16,120 --> 02:45:19,039 Speaker 1: who are interested in like finding the truth and reality, right, 2835 02:45:19,120 --> 02:45:24,000 Speaker 1: and that that's that's like that that investigation is what 2836 02:45:24,200 --> 02:45:28,600 Speaker 1: a Wikipedia article is. It is like one ten hundred 2837 02:45:29,240 --> 02:45:31,240 Speaker 1: editors out there in the world trying to go, like, 2838 02:45:31,520 --> 02:45:34,480 Speaker 1: what the heck is this topic about? Right? How do 2839 02:45:34,640 --> 02:45:38,600 Speaker 1: I compile my notes? Uh? In a way that helps 2840 02:45:38,640 --> 02:45:40,280 Speaker 1: other people? And I think in the face of the 2841 02:45:40,320 --> 02:45:44,080 Speaker 1: climate crisis, Dr Ianna Johnson says, like, find the thing 2842 02:45:44,160 --> 02:45:46,360 Speaker 1: you're good at, find the thing you're passionate about, and 2843 02:45:46,440 --> 02:45:48,920 Speaker 1: find the thing that like or that that makes you 2844 02:45:49,000 --> 02:45:52,120 Speaker 1: feel good and you're you're just rewarding, And find the 2845 02:45:52,200 --> 02:45:55,800 Speaker 1: thing that actually like helps affect the climate crisis. Right. 2846 02:45:55,959 --> 02:45:58,960 Speaker 1: And a small editor on Wikipedia meets your kind of 2847 02:45:59,200 --> 02:46:02,880 Speaker 1: knowledge needs. It's very satisfying because people will read it 2848 02:46:03,480 --> 02:46:07,600 Speaker 1: and it is incriminal change in the right direction, right, 2849 02:46:08,040 --> 02:46:12,200 Speaker 1: People will make decisions on it. Uh Yeah, I mean 2850 02:46:12,320 --> 02:46:14,080 Speaker 1: and I guess, uh, I think that I think that 2851 02:46:14,200 --> 02:46:17,240 Speaker 1: probably closes this up today. And let's do have anything 2852 02:46:17,280 --> 02:46:20,120 Speaker 1: else to add. Um, I guess one more plug for 2853 02:46:20,200 --> 02:46:23,520 Speaker 1: your Twitter so we can get get more eyeballs on you, 2854 02:46:23,879 --> 02:46:27,040 Speaker 1: um and the work that you're doing. Yeah. Um so 2855 02:46:27,320 --> 02:46:31,879 Speaker 1: at S A D A D S it's my long 2856 02:46:32,040 --> 02:46:35,800 Speaker 1: term handle on the internet and you you can find 2857 02:46:35,840 --> 02:46:39,760 Speaker 1: me over uh and I tweet about Wikipedia and the 2858 02:46:39,800 --> 02:46:44,199 Speaker 1: commer carssis will and we'll we'll link the Wikipedia wiki 2859 02:46:44,240 --> 02:46:47,560 Speaker 1: project climate change page in the description for people to find. 2860 02:46:48,120 --> 02:46:50,600 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking time to talk to 2861 02:46:50,720 --> 02:46:54,600 Speaker 1: us all about these topics. Um, I'm really really great, uh, 2862 02:46:55,040 --> 02:46:59,120 Speaker 1: really grateful to have this type of knowledge readily accessible 2863 02:46:59,160 --> 02:47:02,600 Speaker 1: to more people. Also, you know, in the spirit of Wikipedia. 2864 02:47:03,320 --> 02:47:07,000 Speaker 1: Thanks so, thank you so much. Um. You can follow 2865 02:47:07,120 --> 02:47:10,359 Speaker 1: us by subscribing to the feed and on Twitter, Instagram, 2866 02:47:10,440 --> 02:47:13,600 Speaker 1: at Happened here pod and cool Zone Media. See you 2867 02:47:13,640 --> 02:47:29,080 Speaker 1: on the other side. Everybody, Raffie is the voice of 2868 02:47:29,320 --> 02:47:34,920 Speaker 1: some of the happiest songs of our generation. Baby so 2869 02:47:35,320 --> 02:47:38,800 Speaker 1: who is the man behind baby Bluga? Every human being 2870 02:47:39,200 --> 02:47:44,440 Speaker 1: wants to feel respect When we start with, all good 2871 02:47:44,560 --> 02:47:48,000 Speaker 1: things can grow from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, new 2872 02:47:48,080 --> 02:47:51,000 Speaker 1: Dad and host of Finding Raffie, a new podcast from 2873 02:47:51,040 --> 02:47:54,240 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio and Fatherly. Listen every Tuesday on the 2874 02:47:54,320 --> 02:47:57,080 Speaker 1: i Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. 2875 02:47:57,800 --> 02:47:59,959 Speaker 1: What's Up Guys on my Shot and I am Troy 2876 02:48:00,080 --> 02:48:01,920 Speaker 1: Millions and we are the host of the Earnier Leisure 2877 02:48:02,000 --> 02:48:05,240 Speaker 1: podcast where we break down business models and examine the 2878 02:48:05,320 --> 02:48:08,000 Speaker 1: latest trends and finance. We hold court and have exclusive 2879 02:48:08,040 --> 02:48:10,000 Speaker 1: interviews with some of the biggest names of business, sport, 2880 02:48:10,080 --> 02:48:13,160 Speaker 1: and entertainment, from DJ Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross 2881 02:48:13,200 --> 02:48:15,920 Speaker 1: and Shaquille O'Neil. I mean our alumni list is expansive. 2882 02:48:16,040 --> 02:48:18,520 Speaker 1: Listen to as our guests reveal their business models, hardships 2883 02:48:18,560 --> 02:48:20,760 Speaker 1: and triumphs and their respective fields. The knowledge is in 2884 02:48:20,879 --> 02:48:23,720 Speaker 1: death and the questions are always delivered from your standpoint. 2885 02:48:23,879 --> 02:48:25,560 Speaker 1: We want to know what you want to know. We 2886 02:48:25,720 --> 02:48:28,760 Speaker 1: talked to the legends of business, sports and entertainment about 2887 02:48:28,800 --> 02:48:31,240 Speaker 1: how they got their start and most importantly, how they 2888 02:48:31,320 --> 02:48:33,720 Speaker 1: make their money. Earn your Leisia is a college business 2889 02:48:33,760 --> 02:48:35,800 Speaker 1: class mixed with pop culture. You want to learn about 2890 02:48:35,840 --> 02:48:38,560 Speaker 1: the real estate game, unclears, how the stock market works. 2891 02:48:38,640 --> 02:48:41,080 Speaker 1: We got you interested in starting a trucking company or 2892 02:48:41,200 --> 02:48:44,040 Speaker 1: vendor machine business, not really sure about how taxes or 2893 02:48:44,080 --> 02:48:46,760 Speaker 1: credit work. We got it all covered. The Earnier Leisure 2894 02:48:46,800 --> 02:48:49,800 Speaker 1: podcast is available now. Listen to Earnier Leisure on the 2895 02:48:49,840 --> 02:48:53,760 Speaker 1: Black Effect podcast Network, I Heart Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, 2896 02:48:53,840 --> 02:49:09,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. It's it's could happen here. 2897 02:49:10,320 --> 02:49:15,240 Speaker 1: That's the podcast that this is. It's about things crumbling 2898 02:49:15,520 --> 02:49:18,200 Speaker 1: and uh, how to maybe uncrumble some of the things 2899 02:49:18,280 --> 02:49:21,359 Speaker 1: that are crumbling. And today when we think about the crumbles, 2900 02:49:21,520 --> 02:49:24,840 Speaker 1: when you start thinking about the hell world that that 2901 02:49:24,959 --> 02:49:28,240 Speaker 1: we're all increasingly inhabiting, the scary ship that is getting 2902 02:49:28,280 --> 02:49:30,560 Speaker 1: scarier day by day. Number one on a lot of 2903 02:49:30,600 --> 02:49:34,760 Speaker 1: people's list is going to be the cops. Um real 2904 02:49:35,120 --> 02:49:37,800 Speaker 1: cause of anxiety for a significant chunk of people listening 2905 02:49:37,840 --> 02:49:41,920 Speaker 1: to this podcast right now, including its hosts. Um Alexander, 2906 02:49:42,240 --> 02:49:44,600 Speaker 1: you and I have chatted before on the air. Our 2907 02:49:44,640 --> 02:49:49,320 Speaker 1: guest today, Alexander Williams. Um, you were a police officer 2908 02:49:49,560 --> 02:49:51,840 Speaker 1: in the past and you are not currently and you 2909 02:49:51,879 --> 02:49:56,560 Speaker 1: want to chat about UM. The topic kind of the 2910 02:49:56,600 --> 02:49:58,160 Speaker 1: way you pitched it to us is there's a lot 2911 02:49:58,480 --> 02:50:03,680 Speaker 1: of aspects of police training that are very similar to 2912 02:50:03,760 --> 02:50:06,400 Speaker 1: what colts do to indoctrinate people, and you kind of 2913 02:50:06,440 --> 02:50:08,320 Speaker 1: wanted to speak on that. Yeah, there's a lot of 2914 02:50:08,440 --> 02:50:12,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of cross sections. Um So, yeah, I 2915 02:50:12,160 --> 02:50:13,800 Speaker 1: used to be a cop. I was in law enforcement 2916 02:50:13,879 --> 02:50:17,879 Speaker 1: for just shot a fifteen years until I woke up 2917 02:50:17,920 --> 02:50:22,120 Speaker 1: and got out luckily. And all the stuff that's been 2918 02:50:22,120 --> 02:50:24,360 Speaker 1: going on over the last couple of years, and the 2919 02:50:24,400 --> 02:50:30,400 Speaker 1: craziness and really ingesting a lot of stuff around, you know, cults, 2920 02:50:30,840 --> 02:50:33,840 Speaker 1: And I've started going down that the little checklist that 2921 02:50:33,879 --> 02:50:35,440 Speaker 1: you go down of like are you in a high 2922 02:50:35,480 --> 02:50:39,840 Speaker 1: control group? And man, they all just look just deemed 2923 02:50:39,879 --> 02:50:41,840 Speaker 1: in my head every single time of like, oh, this 2924 02:50:42,000 --> 02:50:43,880 Speaker 1: is exactly what it was like being a cop. Oh, 2925 02:50:44,000 --> 02:50:45,680 Speaker 1: this is exactly what it was like being a cop. 2926 02:50:46,280 --> 02:50:49,160 Speaker 1: And I'm curious, kind of before we get more into it, 2927 02:50:49,560 --> 02:50:51,000 Speaker 1: do you want to walk us through a little bit 2928 02:50:51,080 --> 02:50:55,160 Speaker 1: more kind of what was your process of Um, I know, 2929 02:50:55,360 --> 02:50:57,760 Speaker 1: de radicalization isn't exactly the right term, but I think 2930 02:50:57,800 --> 02:50:59,440 Speaker 1: you know what I'm getting. It's it's in the it's 2931 02:50:59,440 --> 02:51:04,240 Speaker 1: in the it's in the neighborhood shore. Yeah. Mine. So 2932 02:51:04,400 --> 02:51:07,120 Speaker 1: I was raising a cop family. My dad was a 2933 02:51:07,160 --> 02:51:10,960 Speaker 1: copy went the whole nine yards, retirement, the whole thing, 2934 02:51:11,320 --> 02:51:16,200 Speaker 1: and when I got into it, just shy of twenty 2935 02:51:16,240 --> 02:51:19,840 Speaker 1: two years old, which that's young to be making these 2936 02:51:19,959 --> 02:51:23,680 Speaker 1: kinds of choices looking back on it. Um. We had 2937 02:51:23,680 --> 02:51:27,240 Speaker 1: talked on the last podcast of your season one, UM 2938 02:51:28,000 --> 02:51:31,240 Speaker 1: about when my brother got arrested and got beat by 2939 02:51:31,760 --> 02:51:34,680 Speaker 1: my own team, my my own crew, and the jail 2940 02:51:34,760 --> 02:51:37,160 Speaker 1: that I worked with, which is the jails is where 2941 02:51:37,320 --> 02:51:41,000 Speaker 1: I primarily spent most of my time. And I think 2942 02:51:41,040 --> 02:51:44,840 Speaker 1: that that was, uh, item number one kind of on 2943 02:51:44,959 --> 02:51:47,400 Speaker 1: my shelf, like people call it, that's that's that's a 2944 02:51:47,440 --> 02:51:52,080 Speaker 1: big one to right on the shelf. Um. And during 2945 02:51:52,200 --> 02:51:55,480 Speaker 1: my training, I've always been an obstinate little bastard and 2946 02:51:56,000 --> 02:51:59,400 Speaker 1: I've always had that kind of like authority defiance. And 2947 02:52:00,160 --> 02:52:03,120 Speaker 1: in training, they they start telling you really early like hey, 2948 02:52:03,200 --> 02:52:06,440 Speaker 1: you know what you know where your family, we understand you, 2949 02:52:06,520 --> 02:52:09,240 Speaker 1: We're going to get you. And then like the language 2950 02:52:09,280 --> 02:52:12,240 Speaker 1: even then kind of flared red flags wrong for me. 2951 02:52:13,240 --> 02:52:16,359 Speaker 1: And whenever a group of people says we're your family, 2952 02:52:16,680 --> 02:52:20,280 Speaker 1: and so right, like that's what you like, we're your 2953 02:52:20,320 --> 02:52:23,240 Speaker 1: family and you can talk to us anytime. Fine, where 2954 02:52:23,280 --> 02:52:25,680 Speaker 1: your family? And I got your back, Fine, we're your 2955 02:52:25,720 --> 02:52:28,840 Speaker 1: family and that's why you need to do this. Things 2956 02:52:28,920 --> 02:52:31,280 Speaker 1: have gone to ride. It's it's it usually is where 2957 02:52:31,320 --> 02:52:37,480 Speaker 1: your family comma now yeah? Yeah, and yes, So that 2958 02:52:37,720 --> 02:52:40,400 Speaker 1: that was like literally day one. It was where your 2959 02:52:40,400 --> 02:52:42,880 Speaker 1: family now, where you're you know, they use all that language, 2960 02:52:42,920 --> 02:52:47,160 Speaker 1: the familiar language, where your brothers, your sisters. Yeah. And 2961 02:52:47,680 --> 02:52:50,240 Speaker 1: the one that kicked for me and my brain was 2962 02:52:51,040 --> 02:52:53,320 Speaker 1: they said, within a year, you're not gonna have any 2963 02:52:53,400 --> 02:52:57,920 Speaker 1: friends that aren't cops. Like all of your friends are 2964 02:52:57,959 --> 02:53:00,320 Speaker 1: going to be gone because they're not gonna understand stand 2965 02:53:00,400 --> 02:53:02,480 Speaker 1: you and they're not going to be able to be 2966 02:53:02,560 --> 02:53:05,880 Speaker 1: around you and handle you. So within a year, you know, 2967 02:53:06,200 --> 02:53:08,760 Speaker 1: we're going to be everything you've got. And for me 2968 02:53:08,959 --> 02:53:10,800 Speaker 1: that was like that was a line of the sand 2969 02:53:10,879 --> 02:53:12,800 Speaker 1: and like part of my brain was screaming like nope, 2970 02:53:12,879 --> 02:53:16,280 Speaker 1: never letting that happen. I will not let my uh 2971 02:53:16,879 --> 02:53:20,680 Speaker 1: myself not have any non cop friends. Yeah that's probably 2972 02:53:20,720 --> 02:53:23,080 Speaker 1: good because that's I mean, you have like when it 2973 02:53:23,280 --> 02:53:25,840 Speaker 1: it gets to it's the same thing that happens to anybody, right, 2974 02:53:25,879 --> 02:53:28,680 Speaker 1: Like some people got like last year in Portland and 2975 02:53:28,800 --> 02:53:31,000 Speaker 1: Activist Brain where there was this all the people were 2976 02:53:31,040 --> 02:53:33,240 Speaker 1: spending time with other people were out protesting, and so 2977 02:53:33,360 --> 02:53:36,080 Speaker 1: we have this really intense bond, and we also are 2978 02:53:36,160 --> 02:53:39,440 Speaker 1: kind of separated, increasingly separated from the people around us 2979 02:53:39,440 --> 02:53:42,600 Speaker 1: because we just can't communicate with anybody else. And that 2980 02:53:42,879 --> 02:53:44,760 Speaker 1: kind of going on for years and years, because this 2981 02:53:44,879 --> 02:53:47,640 Speaker 1: is your career for twenty something years, and it's like, yeah, 2982 02:53:47,720 --> 02:53:50,400 Speaker 1: that would you'd be, you'd be after a couple of 2983 02:53:50,480 --> 02:53:53,200 Speaker 1: years of that you were inhabiting a different planet. They 2984 02:53:53,280 --> 02:53:56,240 Speaker 1: really are. And it's the how you said that, like, 2985 02:53:56,360 --> 02:53:59,400 Speaker 1: you know, this is usually twenty to thirty years, you know, 2986 02:53:59,560 --> 02:54:01,520 Speaker 1: because you want to get that sweet retirement at the 2987 02:54:01,680 --> 02:54:04,800 Speaker 1: end after you've abused your mind and your body for 2988 02:54:04,920 --> 02:54:08,440 Speaker 1: three decades um. It was it keyed off something that 2989 02:54:08,480 --> 02:54:10,640 Speaker 1: you and Garrison talked about in a previous episode of 2990 02:54:11,400 --> 02:54:15,680 Speaker 1: The Hiring Practices where the Washington Stay guys and they 2991 02:54:15,720 --> 02:54:18,760 Speaker 1: were they got busted because the therapist was showing tons 2992 02:54:18,800 --> 02:54:23,000 Speaker 1: of bias, and that brought up for me the hiring 2993 02:54:23,080 --> 02:54:28,680 Speaker 1: process because those psych exams are the only time as 2994 02:54:28,720 --> 02:54:30,560 Speaker 1: a cop that you get a psych exam. That's the 2995 02:54:30,600 --> 02:54:36,480 Speaker 1: only time you ever talked to a therapist mandatorially. Yeah, Yeah, 2996 02:54:36,520 --> 02:54:38,680 Speaker 1: it's a really bad move, And there's a joke in 2997 02:54:38,800 --> 02:54:42,040 Speaker 1: cop culture of like, well, yeah, you gotta pass it 2998 02:54:42,080 --> 02:54:44,200 Speaker 1: before you get hired, because after you get hired, you're 2999 02:54:44,240 --> 02:54:48,200 Speaker 1: never going to pass that test. M because you know, 3000 02:54:48,520 --> 02:54:51,880 Speaker 1: being a cop is is micro dosing PTSD in your 3001 02:54:51,920 --> 02:54:57,360 Speaker 1: system the entire time. See, I guess one thing I'm 3002 02:54:57,360 --> 02:54:59,400 Speaker 1: wondering because you you were in it for fifteen years, 3003 02:54:59,440 --> 02:55:01,760 Speaker 1: So that's the it's not an insignificant span of time. 3004 02:55:02,360 --> 02:55:05,440 Speaker 1: Has it gotten to be more that way? Because I 3005 02:55:05,600 --> 02:55:08,960 Speaker 1: knew about fifteen something years ago when I was like 3006 02:55:09,040 --> 02:55:11,400 Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen, just like I lived in the shitty little 3007 02:55:11,440 --> 02:55:14,440 Speaker 1: apartment complex and like the dude who live below above me, 3008 02:55:14,640 --> 02:55:16,160 Speaker 1: and then like the dude who lived two doors down, 3009 02:55:16,200 --> 02:55:21,440 Speaker 1: we're both Dallas cops um and I don't know, like 3010 02:55:21,560 --> 02:55:24,240 Speaker 1: I you know, I was not particularly political at that point, 3011 02:55:24,320 --> 02:55:26,720 Speaker 1: but I didn't They didn't seem to have trouble relating, 3012 02:55:26,760 --> 02:55:28,880 Speaker 1: Like they would hang out and ship after work, like 3013 02:55:29,840 --> 02:55:32,560 Speaker 1: just like not like like we would be like barbecuing 3014 02:55:32,600 --> 02:55:34,280 Speaker 1: outside and they would drop by and stuff, and it 3015 02:55:34,400 --> 02:55:35,960 Speaker 1: was never I never got the sense that they were 3016 02:55:36,000 --> 02:55:38,119 Speaker 1: living in a separate planet. But this is like fifteen 3017 02:55:38,200 --> 02:55:41,040 Speaker 1: years ago, and I'm wondering what to what extent do 3018 02:55:41,080 --> 02:55:44,480 Speaker 1: you think this is kind of increased in recent memory, 3019 02:55:44,640 --> 02:55:50,640 Speaker 1: like this the kind of you don't really uh socialize 3020 02:55:50,680 --> 02:55:54,560 Speaker 1: with people outside of the family, so to speak. It 3021 02:55:54,720 --> 02:55:56,480 Speaker 1: is kind of like that. So, yeah, a lot of 3022 02:55:56,600 --> 02:55:59,520 Speaker 1: language are using is perfect because so what you're describing 3023 02:55:59,640 --> 02:56:01,440 Speaker 1: and when I remember from being a kid in the 3024 02:56:01,520 --> 02:56:05,440 Speaker 1: eighties and the nineties and stuff, was um community policing 3025 02:56:05,680 --> 02:56:09,480 Speaker 1: Like it's it's a literal style of policing, going back 3026 02:56:09,520 --> 02:56:12,400 Speaker 1: to more of like the professional police style before it 3027 02:56:12,440 --> 02:56:17,600 Speaker 1: went military, and in areas where people actively live in 3028 02:56:17,720 --> 02:56:21,520 Speaker 1: their community and engage with their community, there's a striking 3029 02:56:21,560 --> 02:56:27,480 Speaker 1: difference in the level of police violence that happens. But nowadays, uh, 3030 02:56:27,840 --> 02:56:30,160 Speaker 1: it's not the same thing because a lot of especially 3031 02:56:30,240 --> 02:56:34,840 Speaker 1: in bigger metropolitan areas, you're a cop there, you can't 3032 02:56:34,840 --> 02:56:37,320 Speaker 1: afford to live there. You're you're definitely not getting paid 3033 02:56:37,400 --> 02:56:39,360 Speaker 1: enough to live most of the time in the cities 3034 02:56:39,400 --> 02:56:41,760 Speaker 1: that you're supposed to be you know, a part of. 3035 02:56:42,879 --> 02:56:45,600 Speaker 1: And it's gotten to the point where they actually teach 3036 02:56:45,720 --> 02:56:49,800 Speaker 1: this like method up methodically in academies. They'll be like, hey, 3037 02:56:49,800 --> 02:56:51,199 Speaker 1: if you want to be a cop in a big town, 3038 02:56:51,640 --> 02:56:54,039 Speaker 1: you need to start shopping around in the smaller cities 3039 02:56:54,080 --> 02:56:55,920 Speaker 1: around it to find a place to live maybe like 3040 02:56:55,959 --> 02:56:59,560 Speaker 1: an hour away. Um. And then they also pitch it 3041 02:56:59,560 --> 02:57:01,400 Speaker 1: as a same thing because it's all about, you know, 3042 02:57:01,640 --> 02:57:06,160 Speaker 1: the cheology Grossman. We're all under attack, so they'll teach people, 3043 02:57:06,240 --> 02:57:09,560 Speaker 1: you know what, it's it's safest to not live in 3044 02:57:09,680 --> 02:57:13,000 Speaker 1: the town where you're a cop now. M So it's 3045 02:57:13,040 --> 02:57:17,360 Speaker 1: become intentional and it's one of those things where because 3046 02:57:17,400 --> 02:57:18,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to breeze past this is not the 3047 02:57:18,840 --> 02:57:21,920 Speaker 1: episode world talk about community policing. There's very good criticisms 3048 02:57:21,959 --> 02:57:23,920 Speaker 1: of community policing, and there's a lot of things that 3049 02:57:24,000 --> 02:57:27,680 Speaker 1: doesn't solve. But I think it's yeah, yeah, absolutely, we're 3050 02:57:27,680 --> 02:57:29,040 Speaker 1: not trying to say like the solution is just to 3051 02:57:29,080 --> 02:57:31,120 Speaker 1: get cops, you know, to be members of their communities. 3052 02:57:31,160 --> 02:57:35,520 Speaker 1: But it it is worse when they're driving in from 3053 02:57:35,520 --> 02:57:37,200 Speaker 1: an hour out of town and see it as like 3054 02:57:37,320 --> 02:57:41,200 Speaker 1: I'm occupying almost this area like it does. Yeah, that 3055 02:57:41,360 --> 02:57:44,800 Speaker 1: language fits perfectly, especially with Grossman and all that. Yes, 3056 02:57:45,320 --> 02:57:47,960 Speaker 1: and we've got a two partner on David Grossman or 3057 02:57:48,000 --> 02:57:49,560 Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards if you want to check it out. 3058 02:57:49,560 --> 02:57:51,600 Speaker 1: But he's kind of the one of the big one 3059 02:57:51,640 --> 02:57:53,920 Speaker 1: of the big individuals, who's who's done the most to 3060 02:57:54,000 --> 02:57:57,520 Speaker 1: like really push UM. I don't even like it's usually 3061 02:57:57,560 --> 02:58:01,119 Speaker 1: framed as militarized thinking, But I don't know a lot 3062 02:58:01,160 --> 02:58:03,840 Speaker 1: of soldiers who have been who were trained to think 3063 02:58:03,959 --> 02:58:06,600 Speaker 1: that way about ship Like most of the people I 3064 02:58:06,680 --> 02:58:09,680 Speaker 1: knew who were getting shot at every day for years overseas, 3065 02:58:10,000 --> 02:58:13,920 Speaker 1: we're not thinking the way Grossman does. No, that's probably 3066 02:58:13,920 --> 02:58:18,680 Speaker 1: because he never actually wouldn't did anything. I think maybe 3067 02:58:18,720 --> 02:58:21,400 Speaker 1: we should probably Alexander, have you go start going through 3068 02:58:21,520 --> 02:58:24,480 Speaker 1: this um this document you put together, kind of walking 3069 02:58:24,560 --> 02:58:27,160 Speaker 1: through UM and I wonder if you might start when 3070 02:58:27,160 --> 02:58:30,760 Speaker 1: you kind of started thinking about police training and the 3071 02:58:30,879 --> 02:58:35,279 Speaker 1: mindset inculcated inside police departments from like a cultic perspective. 3072 02:58:35,320 --> 02:58:38,400 Speaker 1: When did that really start to come together for you? Uh? 3073 02:58:38,800 --> 02:58:42,760 Speaker 1: It probably really started to come together, um uh when 3074 02:58:42,760 --> 02:58:45,080 Speaker 1: actually when I got involved, I used to be an instructor, 3075 02:58:45,600 --> 02:58:47,920 Speaker 1: when I got you know, behind that part of the curtain, 3076 02:58:47,959 --> 02:58:51,680 Speaker 1: and I got involved in those things. UM, and I 3077 02:58:51,720 --> 02:58:54,480 Speaker 1: started going and teaching, and I started teaching other departments 3078 02:58:54,520 --> 02:58:56,560 Speaker 1: that would come to us, and it was it was 3079 02:58:56,600 --> 02:58:58,400 Speaker 1: a joke in my head at first was like, oh, 3080 02:58:58,480 --> 02:59:00,640 Speaker 1: we all speak the same language. And then that got 3081 02:59:00,720 --> 02:59:04,360 Speaker 1: my brain rolling on linguistics and how linguistics work and 3082 02:59:04,480 --> 02:59:07,880 Speaker 1: how that you know, the words we use change how 3083 02:59:07,920 --> 02:59:10,160 Speaker 1: we perceive reality. And then I clicked and I was like, Oh, 3084 02:59:10,200 --> 02:59:13,440 Speaker 1: we're like a we're a subculture. We're We're like no 3085 02:59:13,560 --> 02:59:16,200 Speaker 1: matter where you go in the country, we are a 3086 02:59:16,280 --> 02:59:20,680 Speaker 1: little subculture. We are a little group. And that's what 3087 02:59:20,840 --> 02:59:23,280 Speaker 1: started to kind of push me towards like it's like 3088 02:59:23,360 --> 02:59:27,080 Speaker 1: being in a cult, because you know, you grow up 3089 02:59:27,120 --> 02:59:31,320 Speaker 1: around Central California and there's a lot of really religious 3090 02:59:31,360 --> 02:59:36,080 Speaker 1: people and you start seeing the intersectionality of it really fast. Yeah, 3091 02:59:36,120 --> 02:59:38,360 Speaker 1: And that's interesting because we've talked a few times on 3092 02:59:38,480 --> 02:59:41,000 Speaker 1: various shows I've done about how any good subculture, any 3093 02:59:41,040 --> 02:59:43,360 Speaker 1: really good party, has elements of like a cult. Right, 3094 02:59:43,400 --> 02:59:45,840 Speaker 1: There's there's little bits of that. There's bits of that 3095 02:59:45,959 --> 02:59:50,720 Speaker 1: in friendship and whatnot. Yeah. Yeah, it's just a thing 3096 02:59:50,879 --> 02:59:53,360 Speaker 1: like cults are taking advantage, like pulling a bunch of 3097 02:59:53,600 --> 02:59:58,400 Speaker 1: things that people do together in order to manipulate human beings. Um, 3098 02:59:59,280 --> 03:00:02,360 Speaker 1: I'm wondering kind of where where you think where are 3099 03:00:02,360 --> 03:00:03,840 Speaker 1: some of the areas you think it kind of crosses 3100 03:00:03,920 --> 03:00:07,120 Speaker 1: the line with police from like this is you know 3101 03:00:07,440 --> 03:00:09,360 Speaker 1: a degree of like I'm sure firefighters have a degree 3102 03:00:09,360 --> 03:00:12,400 Speaker 1: of this. You know, Um, these are people that like 3103 03:00:12,560 --> 03:00:14,360 Speaker 1: I hang around with all the time and we wipe 3104 03:00:14,440 --> 03:00:17,440 Speaker 1: up in some intense situations together. That causes there are 3105 03:00:17,520 --> 03:00:21,160 Speaker 1: culti aspects that's always going to cause. Um, I'm wondering, 3106 03:00:21,240 --> 03:00:23,400 Speaker 1: kind of where where are the first areas you started 3107 03:00:23,440 --> 03:00:27,560 Speaker 1: to realize this, this is crossing that line of Probably 3108 03:00:27,600 --> 03:00:30,840 Speaker 1: the first area is in how much the department like 3109 03:00:31,040 --> 03:00:32,960 Speaker 1: and this was universal and loss of departments that I 3110 03:00:33,240 --> 03:00:36,360 Speaker 1: had contact with, is how much the department owns you? 3111 03:00:36,600 --> 03:00:38,800 Speaker 1: And I mean like they use that language. They they'll 3112 03:00:38,840 --> 03:00:41,880 Speaker 1: tell you like we own you. Like anything you do 3113 03:00:42,080 --> 03:00:44,280 Speaker 1: in your personal life, your first thought needs to be 3114 03:00:45,080 --> 03:00:48,840 Speaker 1: how does this affect my department and my my sheriff, 3115 03:00:49,040 --> 03:00:51,480 Speaker 1: my chief, my whatever, Like every single thing you do 3116 03:00:51,640 --> 03:00:56,160 Speaker 1: is supposed to be potentially pr for the department. So 3117 03:00:56,640 --> 03:00:58,600 Speaker 1: they tell you flat out in the forefront of your 3118 03:00:58,640 --> 03:01:02,520 Speaker 1: mind every waking moment, man, your own duty, you're you're 3119 03:01:02,640 --> 03:01:06,920 Speaker 1: you're here, we own you. Um. And that that was 3120 03:01:07,000 --> 03:01:09,160 Speaker 1: the first one that was just like oh man, like no, 3121 03:01:09,320 --> 03:01:11,240 Speaker 1: I punch out at the end of my shift and 3122 03:01:11,280 --> 03:01:15,520 Speaker 1: I go home. This isn't like, this isn't this is 3123 03:01:15,560 --> 03:01:18,080 Speaker 1: a job. It's not supposed to be a life, it's 3124 03:01:18,480 --> 03:01:20,360 Speaker 1: it's and that that was the first one that started 3125 03:01:20,400 --> 03:01:24,600 Speaker 1: going it. Um. Probably the second one that I really 3126 03:01:24,640 --> 03:01:27,200 Speaker 1: noticed was that you can tell anyone's a cop because 3127 03:01:27,200 --> 03:01:29,040 Speaker 1: they'll tell you within about five seconds of meeting them. 3128 03:01:29,080 --> 03:01:31,800 Speaker 1: But they're a com if you're at a bar, you're 3129 03:01:31,800 --> 03:01:33,320 Speaker 1: at a party or at whatever, they'll be like, Hi, 3130 03:01:33,440 --> 03:01:35,640 Speaker 1: my name, my miname's Alexander. I work for the Shares. 3131 03:01:35,720 --> 03:01:38,000 Speaker 1: Part Like it's it's gonna come out of their mouth 3132 03:01:38,120 --> 03:01:42,320 Speaker 1: in two seconds because it is. It's their identity, it's 3133 03:01:42,360 --> 03:01:45,480 Speaker 1: their entire sense of self. Yeah, I wonder because one 3134 03:01:45,520 --> 03:01:47,400 Speaker 1: of the things we've seen in the last couple of 3135 03:01:47,480 --> 03:01:50,400 Speaker 1: years in particular, is aspects of that bleed out, like 3136 03:01:50,480 --> 03:01:52,720 Speaker 1: the thin blue line flags and stuff, and some of 3137 03:01:52,840 --> 03:01:56,040 Speaker 1: that's some of that's just you know, signpost. Some of 3138 03:01:56,120 --> 03:02:00,600 Speaker 1: that's just I know people who were in uh, certain 3139 03:02:00,720 --> 03:02:03,480 Speaker 1: jobs where they transported things that were sketchy and had 3140 03:02:03,520 --> 03:02:05,840 Speaker 1: those flags. Is like, well maybe the cop won't search merry, 3141 03:02:05,879 --> 03:02:08,640 Speaker 1: you know, but like there and there's elements that they're 3142 03:02:08,680 --> 03:02:10,240 Speaker 1: just you know, I don't want the cops to stop 3143 03:02:10,320 --> 03:02:12,560 Speaker 1: me from you know, fucking with these people or whatever. 3144 03:02:13,000 --> 03:02:17,400 Speaker 1: But I think there's also elements of that. Um And 3145 03:02:17,560 --> 03:02:20,320 Speaker 1: I think probably television is to blame for aspects of this, 3146 03:02:20,480 --> 03:02:24,240 Speaker 1: but of kind of that sheep dog culture as as 3147 03:02:24,400 --> 03:02:27,000 Speaker 1: a as grossman calls that are starting to bleed over 3148 03:02:27,080 --> 03:02:30,160 Speaker 1: into chunks of the civilian world. UM And I guess 3149 03:02:30,160 --> 03:02:32,640 Speaker 1: I'm wondering kind of like, yeah, what that looks like 3150 03:02:33,680 --> 03:02:37,320 Speaker 1: as a as someone unlike the the deep inside of 3151 03:02:37,400 --> 03:02:40,360 Speaker 1: that as a police officer, Like what is it? I'm wondering, 3152 03:02:40,440 --> 03:02:42,520 Speaker 1: like to what extent where you kind of conscious of 3153 03:02:42,640 --> 03:02:46,440 Speaker 1: that aspect of society like filling out around you, like 3154 03:02:46,600 --> 03:02:49,000 Speaker 1: some of these like the cult of the of the 3155 03:02:49,200 --> 03:02:54,400 Speaker 1: heroic police officer kind of spreading to be um something new, 3156 03:02:54,920 --> 03:02:57,680 Speaker 1: which which it really started doing from like two thousand 3157 03:02:57,720 --> 03:03:00,080 Speaker 1: and eighteen up to the present moment is when a 3158 03:03:00,160 --> 03:03:02,040 Speaker 1: lot of that shift seems to have happened based on 3159 03:03:02,160 --> 03:03:06,359 Speaker 1: kind of what I've sawn. No, that timeline fits perfectly 3160 03:03:06,360 --> 03:03:08,920 Speaker 1: because I remember when I first got hired, the thin 3161 03:03:09,000 --> 03:03:11,520 Speaker 1: Blue line. It existed, it was a thing, but it 3162 03:03:11,640 --> 03:03:13,400 Speaker 1: was just it was just a matte black with a 3163 03:03:13,480 --> 03:03:16,280 Speaker 1: blue line and that was it. Uh, And I you 3164 03:03:16,320 --> 03:03:18,840 Speaker 1: didn't really even in cop culture, like I didn't grow 3165 03:03:18,959 --> 03:03:20,720 Speaker 1: up seeing that thing in the eighties and the nineties 3166 03:03:20,800 --> 03:03:22,560 Speaker 1: met much, not at all. And then when I was 3167 03:03:22,600 --> 03:03:24,720 Speaker 1: in the department in the in the in the two thousand's, 3168 03:03:25,480 --> 03:03:27,200 Speaker 1: you kind of saw it every now and again, someone 3169 03:03:27,280 --> 03:03:30,960 Speaker 1: might have a pelpin like in the department, but out 3170 03:03:31,080 --> 03:03:35,960 Speaker 1: in public, nobody had that stuff. No nobody, nobody had 3171 03:03:35,959 --> 03:03:38,040 Speaker 1: any of that rocking stuff. And it didn't it never 3172 03:03:38,160 --> 03:03:41,440 Speaker 1: really bothered me until it showed up on an American 3173 03:03:41,520 --> 03:03:43,200 Speaker 1: flag and then that was that was a big red 3174 03:03:43,200 --> 03:03:46,720 Speaker 1: flag of like, oh this this is bad. I was like, 3175 03:03:46,840 --> 03:03:49,320 Speaker 1: this is this is nationalism, guys, this isn't good. And 3176 03:03:49,440 --> 03:03:51,400 Speaker 1: like my whole crew look to me and go what's nationalism? 3177 03:03:51,440 --> 03:03:57,320 Speaker 1: And I'm just like, fuck, is there this like sense 3178 03:03:57,400 --> 03:03:59,760 Speaker 1: that people are toatying or is it this sense that 3179 03:04:01,120 --> 03:04:03,440 Speaker 1: this is kind of the silent majority that backs us 3180 03:04:03,480 --> 03:04:06,560 Speaker 1: in doing whatever hard work we need to do. I 3181 03:04:06,640 --> 03:04:09,120 Speaker 1: think it's started out as tony, it really did, and 3182 03:04:09,240 --> 03:04:13,600 Speaker 1: it's but it's now shifted into um this whole like, 3183 03:04:14,120 --> 03:04:16,280 Speaker 1: you know, you get those guys that are like, oh, 3184 03:04:16,320 --> 03:04:17,800 Speaker 1: if I see a cop getting in a fight, I'm 3185 03:04:17,840 --> 03:04:19,320 Speaker 1: gonna get out of my car and I'm gonna jump 3186 03:04:19,360 --> 03:04:21,959 Speaker 1: in there and I'm gonna back them up because they're 3187 03:04:22,040 --> 03:04:25,640 Speaker 1: like they're playing top. They really want that authority or 3188 03:04:25,720 --> 03:04:29,240 Speaker 1: that whatever, but for whatever reason, they don't go do it. Um. 3189 03:04:29,800 --> 03:04:31,680 Speaker 1: But this has been a way of like kind of 3190 03:04:32,120 --> 03:04:34,600 Speaker 1: they get to see themselves as being like a posse 3191 03:04:35,680 --> 03:04:37,880 Speaker 1: kind of a thing, like I'm in the I'm in 3192 03:04:37,920 --> 03:04:39,600 Speaker 1: the club. I'm not in the club, but like they're 3193 03:04:39,640 --> 03:04:43,720 Speaker 1: my buddies and is there I don't know, does that 3194 03:04:43,840 --> 03:04:46,360 Speaker 1: make being in the club cooler? The fact that there's 3195 03:04:46,400 --> 03:04:49,320 Speaker 1: these kind of posse's forming around it, these people kind 3196 03:04:49,360 --> 03:04:52,160 Speaker 1: of work worshiping the culture associated with it. I mean 3197 03:04:52,240 --> 03:04:54,120 Speaker 1: there probably is now, but honestly, when I was in 3198 03:04:54,160 --> 03:04:56,640 Speaker 1: there and freaked me the hell out, it really really 3199 03:04:56,760 --> 03:04:59,960 Speaker 1: creeped me out. I didn't like it at all. Yeah, 3200 03:05:00,040 --> 03:05:01,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you have to think about, if you're if 3201 03:05:01,720 --> 03:05:04,040 Speaker 1: you're a reasonable person, how weird it would be to 3202 03:05:04,160 --> 03:05:07,000 Speaker 1: see your job turned into a cult like Garrison. You 3203 03:05:07,080 --> 03:05:09,920 Speaker 1: know that feeling, um or you're you're going to learn 3204 03:05:10,000 --> 03:05:15,160 Speaker 1: when we when we make the cult. Yeah, okay, so 3205 03:05:15,360 --> 03:05:17,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to. I guess let's let's let's get back 3206 03:05:17,200 --> 03:05:18,600 Speaker 1: to this kind of list you put together, because you 3207 03:05:18,640 --> 03:05:21,920 Speaker 1: were sort of going through different hallmarks of what makes 3208 03:05:22,000 --> 03:05:24,320 Speaker 1: something a cult. One of them is the group displays 3209 03:05:24,320 --> 03:05:27,480 Speaker 1: and excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and 3210 03:05:27,600 --> 03:05:30,560 Speaker 1: whether he is alive or dead, regards his belief system, ideology, 3211 03:05:30,640 --> 03:05:33,600 Speaker 1: in practices as the truth as law. Um. And I'll 3212 03:05:33,600 --> 03:05:35,879 Speaker 1: remind you we were not talking about my podcast. We're 3213 03:05:35,879 --> 03:05:42,560 Speaker 1: talking about cults here. Uh that's right, Um, yes, stay quiet, Garrison. 3214 03:05:43,680 --> 03:05:49,920 Speaker 1: That's they're just smiling, silently staring at us through zoom. 3215 03:05:50,040 --> 03:05:53,600 Speaker 1: I see you, okay, And you've written under this the 3216 03:05:53,720 --> 03:05:56,320 Speaker 1: law is the higher power. They grant control of their actions. 3217 03:05:56,400 --> 03:05:58,520 Speaker 1: Blind faith in the system frees them from having to 3218 03:05:58,600 --> 03:06:00,920 Speaker 1: consider their role in the system. It's my job to 3219 03:06:01,080 --> 03:06:03,360 Speaker 1: arrest in charge high let the court figure out the rest. 3220 03:06:03,720 --> 03:06:05,520 Speaker 1: It sounds a lot like kill them all, let and 3221 03:06:05,640 --> 03:06:07,640 Speaker 1: let God sort them out. In this case, the criminal 3222 03:06:07,720 --> 03:06:11,160 Speaker 1: justice system is a direct replacement for God. I think, 3223 03:06:11,200 --> 03:06:12,720 Speaker 1: I think this is this is a really good point. 3224 03:06:12,800 --> 03:06:15,200 Speaker 1: This is even this is the thing even when I 3225 03:06:15,320 --> 03:06:19,280 Speaker 1: was like a dumb kid and thought cops were fine, 3226 03:06:19,320 --> 03:06:21,200 Speaker 1: this was the one thing that even like just even 3227 03:06:21,280 --> 03:06:23,520 Speaker 1: still freaked me out about cops because every once in 3228 03:06:23,560 --> 03:06:25,480 Speaker 1: a while you would see a video of like the 3229 03:06:25,600 --> 03:06:28,760 Speaker 1: cop was randomly like assaulting somebody, and then other cops 3230 03:06:28,879 --> 03:06:31,680 Speaker 1: nearby just mindlessly join in, and I'm like, whoa, that's 3231 03:06:31,680 --> 03:06:34,760 Speaker 1: so such a weird kind of group dynamic of they 3232 03:06:34,879 --> 03:06:37,840 Speaker 1: see someone doing something and they just don't question it 3233 03:06:38,000 --> 03:06:40,640 Speaker 1: at all and immediately back it up, no matter what 3234 03:06:40,800 --> 03:06:42,840 Speaker 1: actually was happening. Because like I always tried to think 3235 03:06:42,879 --> 03:06:45,400 Speaker 1: things through more like logically, and that type of like 3236 03:06:45,959 --> 03:06:48,920 Speaker 1: mindlessness really freaked me out. And I think was maybe 3237 03:06:48,959 --> 03:06:51,039 Speaker 1: one of the first things that was like huh, maybe 3238 03:06:51,440 --> 03:06:53,000 Speaker 1: it was. It was one of the first cracks and 3239 03:06:53,080 --> 03:06:56,879 Speaker 1: like maybe cops actually aren't good. Um, I think, yeah, 3240 03:06:56,879 --> 03:06:58,520 Speaker 1: I think this is a really great point in terms 3241 03:06:58,600 --> 03:07:02,119 Speaker 1: of how this ties into like, yeah, it's my job 3242 03:07:02,200 --> 03:07:05,080 Speaker 1: to it's my job to arrest and charge. I don't 3243 03:07:05,160 --> 03:07:07,640 Speaker 1: sort out what happens afterwards, so it doesn't actually matter. 3244 03:07:07,840 --> 03:07:10,080 Speaker 1: Like it's like I'm not I'm not actually hurting these 3245 03:07:10,120 --> 03:07:12,360 Speaker 1: people because if if they did something wrong, it's going 3246 03:07:12,440 --> 03:07:14,840 Speaker 1: to get figured out in the court system. I'm just 3247 03:07:14,959 --> 03:07:18,280 Speaker 1: doing this like preliminary task. It's it plays into a 3248 03:07:18,280 --> 03:07:21,480 Speaker 1: whole bunch of like weird psychological things that make you 3249 03:07:22,120 --> 03:07:24,960 Speaker 1: feel better about horrible actions you're doing because you have 3250 03:07:25,040 --> 03:07:27,200 Speaker 1: so much backing that's going to make sure what you 3251 03:07:27,320 --> 03:07:31,760 Speaker 1: do actually isn't bad. Yeah, this is like this, you know, 3252 03:07:32,000 --> 03:07:35,400 Speaker 1: this arrest, which may be physical and ugly, even if 3253 03:07:35,400 --> 03:07:37,440 Speaker 1: they're innocent later. It's just part of what you have 3254 03:07:37,600 --> 03:07:39,279 Speaker 1: to do to get to the point where you determine 3255 03:07:39,280 --> 03:07:42,320 Speaker 1: whether or not they're innocence. So I'm not doing anything bad. Yeah. Yeah, 3256 03:07:42,440 --> 03:07:45,120 Speaker 1: And actually, Garrison, I it's it's what you said. It's 3257 03:07:45,160 --> 03:07:46,920 Speaker 1: perfect because in the bottom of the thing where I 3258 03:07:47,000 --> 03:07:50,360 Speaker 1: was just spewing notes to myself, I literally put down here. 3259 03:07:50,360 --> 03:07:52,480 Speaker 1: It's not a job to them. It's a central component 3260 03:07:52,560 --> 03:07:54,959 Speaker 1: of their sense of self. This is why they will 3261 03:07:55,000 --> 03:07:59,880 Speaker 1: do terrible things to validate their perceived reality. And how 3262 03:08:00,040 --> 03:08:04,960 Speaker 1: these things, yeah, they it's you might say, like imagine 3263 03:08:04,959 --> 03:08:06,720 Speaker 1: how like think about how hard it is to get 3264 03:08:06,760 --> 03:08:10,320 Speaker 1: people to admit they're wrong about a political belief on Twitter, 3265 03:08:11,200 --> 03:08:13,760 Speaker 1: especially when their name is attached to their account. Now 3266 03:08:13,879 --> 03:08:18,160 Speaker 1: imagine you have like imagine that's the thing being argued 3267 03:08:18,280 --> 03:08:21,119 Speaker 1: is like the central thing around which you organize your life. 3268 03:08:21,160 --> 03:08:23,320 Speaker 1: And also you get to shoot people who make you angry. 3269 03:08:24,320 --> 03:08:27,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's it's a rough situation to be it. 3270 03:08:28,160 --> 03:08:31,160 Speaker 1: It is, it is, it's crazy. And the part that 3271 03:08:31,280 --> 03:08:34,640 Speaker 1: I wrote of it's my job to arrest and charge high, 3272 03:08:34,800 --> 03:08:39,440 Speaker 1: I think that's that's a part of the mentality of 3273 03:08:39,520 --> 03:08:41,920 Speaker 1: it is like, yeah, I don't want to say it's 3274 03:08:41,920 --> 03:08:43,560 Speaker 1: like a game, but it almost is like a game. 3275 03:08:43,600 --> 03:08:46,000 Speaker 1: It's almost like they're trying to get points, like score 3276 03:08:46,080 --> 03:08:48,600 Speaker 1: high and talk to me about talk to me about 3277 03:08:48,640 --> 03:08:50,480 Speaker 1: when you say a rest and charge high kind of 3278 03:08:50,560 --> 03:08:52,000 Speaker 1: what is that? What does that sort of look like 3279 03:08:52,400 --> 03:08:54,240 Speaker 1: on the ground before we get into kind of why 3280 03:08:54,600 --> 03:08:58,240 Speaker 1: people do that. So when you're using your your powers 3281 03:08:58,240 --> 03:09:00,120 Speaker 1: of arrest, you're you're you're supposed to hear to go 3282 03:09:00,120 --> 03:09:02,960 Speaker 1: a penal code. But there is code and I'm always 3283 03:09:02,959 --> 03:09:06,360 Speaker 1: speaking to California because that's where i got my trainer. Um, 3284 03:09:07,400 --> 03:09:10,000 Speaker 1: they don't expect cops to remember every single element of 3285 03:09:10,080 --> 03:09:12,840 Speaker 1: every single PC code because that's ridiculous. No one's going 3286 03:09:12,879 --> 03:09:16,720 Speaker 1: to be able to do that. Um. So there's there's 3287 03:09:16,760 --> 03:09:19,680 Speaker 1: wiggle room. There's play where I know you did this 3288 03:09:19,840 --> 03:09:21,920 Speaker 1: thing and I know it's what they call a wobbler, 3289 03:09:22,080 --> 03:09:25,040 Speaker 1: Like I can go felony and go misdemeanor. They'll teach 3290 03:09:25,080 --> 03:09:26,800 Speaker 1: you in the academy. They're like, if it's a wabbler, 3291 03:09:26,840 --> 03:09:29,520 Speaker 1: you always charge felony every single time, even if you 3292 03:09:29,600 --> 03:09:33,640 Speaker 1: don't think it's gonna work. Charge it felony, kick it 3293 03:09:33,680 --> 03:09:35,320 Speaker 1: to the d A and let the d A c 3294 03:09:35,440 --> 03:09:37,240 Speaker 1: if they can make it stick. And if they don't, whatever, 3295 03:09:37,320 --> 03:09:40,480 Speaker 1: who cares. That's not part of our job anymore. Wow. 3296 03:09:41,200 --> 03:09:43,200 Speaker 1: And yeah, And that's one of those things where a 3297 03:09:43,280 --> 03:09:45,480 Speaker 1: lot of people I've had friends who got charged with 3298 03:09:45,520 --> 03:09:48,240 Speaker 1: felonies that got dropped, but like, you're still living under 3299 03:09:48,800 --> 03:09:50,880 Speaker 1: your You essentially have to live as like the diet 3300 03:09:51,040 --> 03:09:54,240 Speaker 1: version of a felon while that's hanging over your head um, 3301 03:09:54,879 --> 03:09:57,560 Speaker 1: which is not fun. No, And it's a big part 3302 03:09:57,640 --> 03:09:59,720 Speaker 1: of the whole criminal justice. I'm sure you guys are aware. 3303 03:09:59,760 --> 03:10:02,280 Speaker 1: That 's love to crack deals. They love to make 3304 03:10:02,680 --> 03:10:07,120 Speaker 1: their big man general backroom deals. And facilitating that is 3305 03:10:07,280 --> 03:10:11,480 Speaker 1: cops charging high. You're here in the room, you're facing 3306 03:10:11,560 --> 03:10:13,800 Speaker 1: felony charges and the d A is gonna be like, oh, man, 3307 03:10:13,840 --> 03:10:15,400 Speaker 1: I can knock that down to him his demeanor, But 3308 03:10:15,520 --> 03:10:18,440 Speaker 1: that's because he knows he doesn't have a case, but 3309 03:10:18,560 --> 03:10:21,880 Speaker 1: he didn't get that opportunity without a cop charging the 3310 03:10:21,959 --> 03:10:27,000 Speaker 1: higher charge. Now you know who isn't going to charge 3311 03:10:27,080 --> 03:10:33,080 Speaker 1: high because their prices are incredibly low, very reasonable, very fair. 3312 03:10:33,160 --> 03:10:37,920 Speaker 1: The products and services that support our podcast. Uh, we're back. 3313 03:10:38,600 --> 03:10:40,960 Speaker 1: So the next thing you've got on here is kind 3314 03:10:41,000 --> 03:10:44,600 Speaker 1: of talking about cult characteristics. Questioning doubt and dissent are 3315 03:10:44,680 --> 03:10:48,519 Speaker 1: discouraged or even punished. And you've written academies are commonly paramilitary. 3316 03:10:48,600 --> 03:10:51,000 Speaker 1: They're working to break down and build up cadets. As 3317 03:10:51,040 --> 03:10:54,520 Speaker 1: discussed last season on my show, the FDO program is 3318 03:10:54,560 --> 03:10:57,120 Speaker 1: where fresh cadets meet salty veterans in the cycle of 3319 03:10:57,200 --> 03:11:00,680 Speaker 1: abuse starts. The paramilitary environment is usually casual and unnoticeable 3320 03:11:00,720 --> 03:11:04,280 Speaker 1: until somebody questions orders or tradition. Questioning order gets the 3321 03:11:04,440 --> 03:11:07,640 Speaker 1: that's an order threat, while questioning tradition and suggesting improvements 3322 03:11:07,680 --> 03:11:10,040 Speaker 1: gets that's how it's always been done. There is no 3323 03:11:10,200 --> 03:11:13,080 Speaker 1: forum for change your progress. Some places have these forums, 3324 03:11:13,120 --> 03:11:15,760 Speaker 1: but they're just for public relations. And this is the 3325 03:11:15,800 --> 03:11:19,400 Speaker 1: thing that I think people who are trying to engage 3326 03:11:19,520 --> 03:11:23,119 Speaker 1: with from a perspective of like reform or whatever, trying 3327 03:11:23,200 --> 03:11:26,280 Speaker 1: to change law enforcement. As a lot of people were 3328 03:11:26,520 --> 03:11:29,320 Speaker 1: last year where things get jammed up a lot is 3329 03:11:29,400 --> 03:11:34,720 Speaker 1: the there's this attitude among civilians, so to speak, among 3330 03:11:34,800 --> 03:11:37,560 Speaker 1: most of us that like, well, anything the government does 3331 03:11:37,600 --> 03:11:39,440 Speaker 1: should be subject to like what we should watch out. 3332 03:11:39,480 --> 03:11:41,040 Speaker 1: We should look at it, we should see if it works. 3333 03:11:41,080 --> 03:11:42,720 Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, we should change it to make 3334 03:11:42,800 --> 03:11:45,640 Speaker 1: it work better. And that's how kind of everything should work. 3335 03:11:45,760 --> 03:11:48,600 Speaker 1: And that's what you're getting it here. Is interesting because 3336 03:11:48,640 --> 03:11:53,000 Speaker 1: it's the reticence to actual change among police as legendary. 3337 03:11:53,360 --> 03:11:54,760 Speaker 1: But I don't think there's a lot of discussion of 3338 03:11:54,800 --> 03:11:58,560 Speaker 1: the psychology behind it. Yeah, I mean it's that it 3339 03:11:58,680 --> 03:12:01,160 Speaker 1: goes back to that whole will do anything to reinforce 3340 03:12:01,200 --> 03:12:05,440 Speaker 1: our perception of reality thing. Um, Like I said earlier, 3341 03:12:05,600 --> 03:12:08,960 Speaker 1: grew up in a cop family and it's specifically in 3342 03:12:09,000 --> 03:12:10,920 Speaker 1: the department that I worked at, So you know, we 3343 03:12:11,000 --> 03:12:15,200 Speaker 1: were called like blue bloods or legacy kids, and no 3344 03:12:15,320 --> 03:12:18,360 Speaker 1: matter what was going on, like anything that you questioned, 3345 03:12:18,400 --> 03:12:20,240 Speaker 1: it was always so, well, that's always it's that's the 3346 03:12:20,240 --> 03:12:22,320 Speaker 1: way it's always been done. That's the way it's always 3347 03:12:22,360 --> 03:12:26,080 Speaker 1: been done. And I grew to hate that answer, like 3348 03:12:26,240 --> 03:12:31,800 Speaker 1: with a passion in my personal life everywhere I refused 3349 03:12:31,959 --> 03:12:34,400 Speaker 1: to give that as an answer when I became a 3350 03:12:34,440 --> 03:12:39,240 Speaker 1: sergeant eventually, Um, and yeah, they'll do anything. I mean 3351 03:12:39,320 --> 03:12:42,520 Speaker 1: they will. They will bend laws, they'll break laws because 3352 03:12:42,560 --> 03:12:45,720 Speaker 1: who's going to charge them? Yeah, because it's what they've 3353 03:12:45,720 --> 03:12:51,039 Speaker 1: always done always. My department famously had um our union 3354 03:12:51,200 --> 03:12:54,360 Speaker 1: got all of our union news embezzled by people in 3355 03:12:54,480 --> 03:12:57,720 Speaker 1: our brass, and they got caught dead to rights. But 3356 03:12:58,400 --> 03:13:00,840 Speaker 1: that case never went anywhere. Nobody would touch it with 3357 03:13:00,879 --> 03:13:03,480 Speaker 1: a ten foot pole. Uh. And even if you go 3358 03:13:03,560 --> 03:13:05,119 Speaker 1: and google it and you try to look at archives 3359 03:13:05,160 --> 03:13:10,040 Speaker 1: from the local newspaper, it's gone. It never happened. And yeah, 3360 03:13:10,080 --> 03:13:12,840 Speaker 1: that's interesting to me because that's like cops getting screwed 3361 03:13:12,920 --> 03:13:17,600 Speaker 1: over by cops. Why how is that? How is that? 3362 03:13:18,200 --> 03:13:19,920 Speaker 1: How is it? Like? What? What? What is the impulse 3363 03:13:19,959 --> 03:13:22,840 Speaker 1: to defend the hat Well, because so there's a division 3364 03:13:23,120 --> 03:13:26,520 Speaker 1: in in cop culture of like like ranks and a cult. 3365 03:13:26,959 --> 03:13:29,760 Speaker 1: Once you get to what they call brass, your your lieutenant, 3366 03:13:29,959 --> 03:13:33,560 Speaker 1: captain or higher, they don't look at us the same 3367 03:13:33,600 --> 03:13:36,840 Speaker 1: way they don't look at the grunts, the line workers, 3368 03:13:36,920 --> 03:13:40,320 Speaker 1: the guys doing the twelve hour shifts were all that 3369 03:13:40,440 --> 03:13:42,360 Speaker 1: family talk goes out the window, and it's like well 3370 03:13:42,400 --> 03:13:47,160 Speaker 1: we're mom and dad now, and they changed their role 3371 03:13:47,280 --> 03:13:51,439 Speaker 1: in that world. And again, to maintain that power and authority, 3372 03:13:51,480 --> 03:13:56,560 Speaker 1: they'll do whatever they have to do. Yeah that's um. 3373 03:13:58,040 --> 03:14:00,240 Speaker 1: I mean it also kind of feeds in to this 3374 03:14:01,360 --> 03:14:04,760 Speaker 1: this idea that like there used to be less restrictions there, 3375 03:14:04,840 --> 03:14:06,480 Speaker 1: used to be like we used to really be able 3376 03:14:06,520 --> 03:14:08,560 Speaker 1: to like do this and do that, like we like 3377 03:14:08,879 --> 03:14:10,800 Speaker 1: a lot of violence get justified that way. But it 3378 03:14:10,879 --> 03:14:14,080 Speaker 1: also it provides an opportunity I think for like police 3379 03:14:14,120 --> 03:14:17,640 Speaker 1: who are trying to engage with reformers to do some 3380 03:14:17,760 --> 03:14:21,080 Speaker 1: sneaky ship because often this like community policing is referred 3381 03:14:21,080 --> 03:14:22,640 Speaker 1: to like, yeah, we need to go back to the 3382 03:14:22,760 --> 03:14:26,119 Speaker 1: old methods of policing. It's like, well, but there were 3383 03:14:26,280 --> 03:14:28,920 Speaker 1: probably do you remember the fire hoses being used to 3384 03:14:29,120 --> 03:14:32,080 Speaker 1: black people during the Civil rights movement? Like there were 3385 03:14:32,160 --> 03:14:35,440 Speaker 1: issues back before we got militarized. It's it's yeah, And 3386 03:14:35,680 --> 03:14:38,000 Speaker 1: I mean, and that was the stuff they were doing outside. Um, 3387 03:14:38,560 --> 03:14:41,040 Speaker 1: the jail I worked in, because you bring up fire hoses, 3388 03:14:41,080 --> 03:14:44,080 Speaker 1: this is where I'm going. Um, they we had big 3389 03:14:44,320 --> 03:14:46,480 Speaker 1: cotton fire hoses up on the floors and this jail 3390 03:14:46,520 --> 03:14:48,120 Speaker 1: and there was actually built out of old parts of 3391 03:14:48,160 --> 03:14:51,520 Speaker 1: the Texas prison. And you know, everyone talks about the 3392 03:14:51,520 --> 03:14:54,000 Speaker 1: good old days when we could really do stuff. And 3393 03:14:54,160 --> 03:14:56,320 Speaker 1: the story that always went around was that when the 3394 03:14:56,360 --> 03:14:58,840 Speaker 1: inmates were getting rowdy, they would just walk down the 3395 03:14:58,920 --> 03:15:01,720 Speaker 1: tier with the hose and just name them. And then 3396 03:15:01,879 --> 03:15:05,720 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ put it back because again, who who's gonna 3397 03:15:05,720 --> 03:15:09,000 Speaker 1: who's gonna tell on me? Who's gonna believe these guys? Yeah, 3398 03:15:09,520 --> 03:15:11,760 Speaker 1: and that was back in like seventies era. You know, 3399 03:15:11,840 --> 03:15:14,400 Speaker 1: it's the that's the big fist story that guys used 3400 03:15:14,400 --> 03:15:15,960 Speaker 1: to always tell. But I'm like, I have no reason 3401 03:15:16,000 --> 03:15:18,440 Speaker 1: to not believe that story. It sounds yeah, I mean, 3402 03:15:18,520 --> 03:15:23,959 Speaker 1: worse stuff happens in prisons today, So yeah, I'm not surprised. 3403 03:15:24,320 --> 03:15:27,360 Speaker 1: All right, moving on down your list. This one's really 3404 03:15:27,440 --> 03:15:30,120 Speaker 1: interesting to me, and I'm curious from some detail on 3405 03:15:30,160 --> 03:15:33,200 Speaker 1: this because this is not something I ever really thought about. UM. 3406 03:15:34,440 --> 03:15:37,720 Speaker 1: Mind altering practices such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, 3407 03:15:37,800 --> 03:15:41,640 Speaker 1: denunciation sessions, or debilitating work routines are used in excess 3408 03:15:41,680 --> 03:15:44,160 Speaker 1: and served to suppress doubts about the group and its leaders. 3409 03:15:44,440 --> 03:15:47,360 Speaker 1: And you've written cop talk briefings, evails are always negative, 3410 03:15:47,360 --> 03:15:49,400 Speaker 1: and the work routine is abusive. It is paired with 3411 03:15:49,480 --> 03:15:52,920 Speaker 1: hyper vigilance. Um, I'm I'm extremely interested in that and 3412 03:15:53,200 --> 03:15:55,760 Speaker 1: kind of like how it how it sounds like the 3413 03:15:56,040 --> 03:15:59,199 Speaker 1: kind of language that you're talking about people using among 3414 03:15:59,280 --> 03:16:03,760 Speaker 1: each other when they're doing this, So I you know almost, 3415 03:16:04,200 --> 03:16:05,800 Speaker 1: I mean I'm not even almost in kind of a 3416 03:16:05,879 --> 03:16:09,440 Speaker 1: PTSD response, I've blocked out like a lot of my 3417 03:16:10,040 --> 03:16:14,000 Speaker 1: memories from those years, Like I'll talk to that yeah, yeah, 3418 03:16:14,280 --> 03:16:16,080 Speaker 1: I'll talk to X cops and they're like, hey, remember 3419 03:16:16,120 --> 03:16:21,000 Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and I'm like no, Um, so cop 3420 03:16:21,080 --> 03:16:24,240 Speaker 1: talk is mostly slang. It's like it's the ten code stuff. Um. 3421 03:16:25,120 --> 03:16:27,640 Speaker 1: But it gets stuck in your head and you start 3422 03:16:27,840 --> 03:16:29,160 Speaker 1: and it's it's one of those things where they talk 3423 03:16:29,160 --> 03:16:30,600 Speaker 1: about how you're not gonna have friends outside of work 3424 03:16:30,600 --> 03:16:33,640 Speaker 1: because you're gonna start talking in this language. You will say, 3425 03:16:33,800 --> 03:16:35,640 Speaker 1: you know, what's your twenty you know, I'm code for 3426 03:16:36,320 --> 03:16:39,120 Speaker 1: if you see someone who's acting a certain way, like 3427 03:16:39,200 --> 03:16:41,280 Speaker 1: out of the ordinary, maybe a mentally ill person, you'll 3428 03:16:41,320 --> 03:16:43,640 Speaker 1: say like, oh, that's a jay cat. Like you'll use 3429 03:16:43,720 --> 03:16:48,320 Speaker 1: this jailhouse slang and it just it permeates your brain 3430 03:16:48,400 --> 03:16:51,600 Speaker 1: and like we said before, your words manipulate how you 3431 03:16:52,280 --> 03:16:56,280 Speaker 1: for see reality and you just start seeing everything that way. Um. 3432 03:16:57,440 --> 03:17:01,400 Speaker 1: The big one is the hyper vigilance cycle is the 3433 03:17:01,680 --> 03:17:04,320 Speaker 1: is the abusive part. That's that's the part that really 3434 03:17:04,360 --> 03:17:08,040 Speaker 1: got me thinking of cults of how they'll you know, 3435 03:17:09,680 --> 03:17:13,200 Speaker 1: deny you food, sleep, make you work crazy hours and 3436 03:17:13,320 --> 03:17:16,880 Speaker 1: do all these things. Um. And that's that's that's the 3437 03:17:16,920 --> 03:17:19,000 Speaker 1: one that really keep the whole calb aspect for me 3438 03:17:19,280 --> 03:17:22,040 Speaker 1: was the hyper vigilance cycle. The studies that have gone 3439 03:17:22,080 --> 03:17:25,480 Speaker 1: into it. UM. I learned about it from a book 3440 03:17:26,000 --> 03:17:28,280 Speaker 1: this little guy right here. It's called Emotional Survival for 3441 03:17:28,400 --> 03:17:32,480 Speaker 1: Law Enforcement. It's by Kevin M. Gil Martin, PhD. He's 3442 03:17:32,520 --> 03:17:36,199 Speaker 1: an ex cop who kind of PhD in neuroscience and studies, 3443 03:17:36,959 --> 03:17:40,640 Speaker 1: studied cops brains and got to see how they function. 3444 03:17:40,720 --> 03:17:42,360 Speaker 1: And he's the one that kind of coined this whole 3445 03:17:42,440 --> 03:17:47,199 Speaker 1: hyper vigilance cycle of you're always edging at this parasympathetic 3446 03:17:47,400 --> 03:17:51,080 Speaker 1: fight flight or freeze response time when you're on duty. Yeah, 3447 03:17:51,680 --> 03:17:53,920 Speaker 1: it just stays up there the entire time. I'm sure 3448 03:17:54,080 --> 03:17:55,840 Speaker 1: soldiers have had the same thing, funk. I'm sure you 3449 03:17:55,959 --> 03:17:57,840 Speaker 1: had the same thing, Robert, when you were doing your 3450 03:17:58,240 --> 03:18:04,000 Speaker 1: war journalism stuff man, or just being in Portland last year. Yeah. Yeah, 3451 03:18:04,280 --> 03:18:07,400 Speaker 1: it keeps you at that edge, that cresting peek and 3452 03:18:07,520 --> 03:18:11,080 Speaker 1: then you crash and you get back up and boom, 3453 03:18:11,120 --> 03:18:14,720 Speaker 1: you peek up again and then you crash. And it's 3454 03:18:14,720 --> 03:18:17,040 Speaker 1: almost like a drug. Your brain becomes addicted to that 3455 03:18:17,400 --> 03:18:20,640 Speaker 1: peeked out feeling that you get from the hyper vigilance 3456 03:18:20,680 --> 03:18:22,840 Speaker 1: because you do here a little better, you see a 3457 03:18:22,840 --> 03:18:26,000 Speaker 1: little better, your brains moving a little faster because there's 3458 03:18:26,040 --> 03:18:29,720 Speaker 1: that heightened amount of adrenaline just constantly dripping into your system, 3459 03:18:30,920 --> 03:18:33,160 Speaker 1: and then you crash. And when you crash is when 3460 03:18:33,160 --> 03:18:36,520 Speaker 1: you're not at work, So you start associating not being 3461 03:18:36,600 --> 03:18:42,440 Speaker 1: at work with feeling bad and being at work feels good. Yeah, 3462 03:18:42,440 --> 03:18:45,880 Speaker 1: I mean the same thing happens, I'm sure Garrison. It 3463 03:18:46,080 --> 03:18:49,080 Speaker 1: happened like during the riots, where you would feel shitty 3464 03:18:49,120 --> 03:18:52,840 Speaker 1: when you weren't out there. Um. Yes, some days I 3465 03:18:52,920 --> 03:18:55,480 Speaker 1: would go out, not even to just to cover it, 3466 03:18:55,920 --> 03:18:58,000 Speaker 1: just to kind of just stand there like a block 3467 03:18:58,040 --> 03:19:00,520 Speaker 1: away because there was nothing else to do. Like it was. 3468 03:19:00,959 --> 03:19:03,040 Speaker 1: There's like I could sit at home and rest, but 3469 03:19:03,400 --> 03:19:06,039 Speaker 1: I'll just be watching whatever is happening, not doing anything else. 3470 03:19:06,120 --> 03:19:09,720 Speaker 1: You just it. It feels it would feel more relaxing 3471 03:19:10,200 --> 03:19:13,199 Speaker 1: just to stand on a street corner and watch people 3472 03:19:13,240 --> 03:19:16,280 Speaker 1: throw stuff over events, because that that that's just that's 3473 03:19:16,320 --> 03:19:18,960 Speaker 1: more relaxing than laying down. It was like, it's that 3474 03:19:19,440 --> 03:19:23,840 Speaker 1: a very a very weird disassociate of like feeling that. Yeah, 3475 03:19:23,879 --> 03:19:27,240 Speaker 1: Like my my brain is it's accustomed to this environment now, 3476 03:19:27,320 --> 03:19:30,600 Speaker 1: So this is the environment I'm gonna be in. Right, 3477 03:19:30,680 --> 03:19:34,040 Speaker 1: And look how fast your brain got into that groove now, 3478 03:19:35,280 --> 03:19:38,800 Speaker 1: you know, imagine doing it for thirty years, yeah, instead 3479 03:19:38,800 --> 03:19:40,800 Speaker 1: of like six months or even though it's it's it 3480 03:19:40,879 --> 03:19:44,160 Speaker 1: started only after like two months, right, and or even 3481 03:19:44,320 --> 03:19:51,840 Speaker 1: even in some cases like a month. Yeah, it's fast. Yeah. Um, 3482 03:19:52,480 --> 03:19:54,520 Speaker 1: all right, So I wanted to get into the kind 3483 03:19:54,560 --> 03:19:58,080 Speaker 1: of the next thing here. Um, the leadership dictates, sometimes 3484 03:19:58,160 --> 03:20:00,880 Speaker 1: in great detail, how members should think and feel, e g. 3485 03:20:01,040 --> 03:20:03,480 Speaker 1: Members must get permission today, change jobs, are married or 3486 03:20:03,600 --> 03:20:05,560 Speaker 1: leaders prescribe what to wear, where to live, whether to 3487 03:20:05,600 --> 03:20:08,400 Speaker 1: have children, how to discipline children, and so forth. Um, 3488 03:20:08,879 --> 03:20:12,080 Speaker 1: very classic cult ship, right, Like the nut really of 3489 03:20:12,200 --> 03:20:15,160 Speaker 1: what we had all all that stuff when I was 3490 03:20:15,160 --> 03:20:18,200 Speaker 1: a kid. Yeah, I would guess that like the time 3491 03:20:18,240 --> 03:20:20,200 Speaker 1: if you ask someone for a quick definition of a cult. 3492 03:20:20,280 --> 03:20:22,440 Speaker 1: This is what they're gonna say something or there. This 3493 03:20:22,600 --> 03:20:24,960 Speaker 1: this is the kind of ship they're going to highlight. Um, 3494 03:20:26,040 --> 03:20:30,440 Speaker 1: and I'm interested in. Yeah, just talk because you already 3495 03:20:30,480 --> 03:20:32,200 Speaker 1: chatted a bit about about this. Just the fact that, 3496 03:20:32,320 --> 03:20:35,880 Speaker 1: like the way in which police policy works kind of 3497 03:20:36,080 --> 03:20:39,320 Speaker 1: restructures how you function off duty, which I think is 3498 03:20:39,400 --> 03:20:42,320 Speaker 1: something that people everyone understands elements of it, right, Like 3499 03:20:42,760 --> 03:20:45,440 Speaker 1: if you're a fucking dishwasher for a living, you will 3500 03:20:45,879 --> 03:20:49,040 Speaker 1: wash dishes differently forever, right Like if you if you 3501 03:20:49,400 --> 03:20:51,880 Speaker 1: have bag your like bagsh it at a grocery store, 3502 03:20:52,000 --> 03:20:54,320 Speaker 1: like that's something that you'll always kind of know how 3503 03:20:54,360 --> 03:20:56,880 Speaker 1: to do. Like these bits and pieces of this, but 3504 03:20:57,040 --> 03:20:59,520 Speaker 1: it's not quite the same as what you're talking about, 3505 03:20:59,640 --> 03:21:03,440 Speaker 1: And I want to get kind of into why. Yeah, 3506 03:21:03,480 --> 03:21:05,400 Speaker 1: it's kind of like when you're when you're as an adult, 3507 03:21:05,480 --> 03:21:06,920 Speaker 1: you do something that you're like, oh, I used to 3508 03:21:06,959 --> 03:21:08,560 Speaker 1: do that at my first job and I was like fifteen, 3509 03:21:08,640 --> 03:21:10,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, it does stick with you the muscle. The 3510 03:21:10,400 --> 03:21:14,200 Speaker 1: muscle memory sticks in those narrow pathways that your brain 3511 03:21:14,280 --> 03:21:17,039 Speaker 1: gets carved unless you get the right kinds of mushrooms 3512 03:21:17,080 --> 03:21:20,400 Speaker 1: to fix that. So and then you just throw ship 3513 03:21:20,480 --> 03:21:26,160 Speaker 1: in the bed, smooth out those curves. Um. But yeah, 3514 03:21:26,200 --> 03:21:29,000 Speaker 1: the leadership really does dictate. I mean some of them 3515 03:21:29,000 --> 03:21:30,520 Speaker 1: are some of them you can foy, and some of 3516 03:21:30,560 --> 03:21:34,279 Speaker 1: the republic you can. You can pull up policies and procedures, 3517 03:21:34,280 --> 03:21:36,800 Speaker 1: standard operating procedures, and you can look at like there's 3518 03:21:36,840 --> 03:21:39,160 Speaker 1: a ton of policies that literally dictate what you are 3519 03:21:39,280 --> 03:21:41,039 Speaker 1: and are not allowed to do in your personal life. 3520 03:21:42,040 --> 03:21:45,440 Speaker 1: Things you're allowed to post on social media, places, you're 3521 03:21:45,440 --> 03:21:49,400 Speaker 1: allowed to go in uniform, And it all just starts 3522 03:21:49,480 --> 03:21:52,760 Speaker 1: like tinking away at your armor. That that sense of identity, 3523 03:21:52,800 --> 03:21:57,880 Speaker 1: that sense of self, and that's how the job becomes 3524 03:21:58,120 --> 03:22:02,680 Speaker 1: your identity. Again. It permeates every corner of your life 3525 03:22:03,520 --> 03:22:06,360 Speaker 1: if you let it. Um, if you don't have like 3526 03:22:06,920 --> 03:22:10,200 Speaker 1: the I don't know the mental strength to kind of 3527 03:22:10,280 --> 03:22:13,440 Speaker 1: resist that, it washes over your real fast. Because while 3528 03:22:13,520 --> 03:22:16,920 Speaker 1: that's all going on, especially as a young cop, you 3529 03:22:16,959 --> 03:22:20,080 Speaker 1: feel great, You're you're special. Now, you're you're in this, 3530 03:22:20,320 --> 03:22:23,040 Speaker 1: you're in the magic club. You you have the the 3531 03:22:23,160 --> 03:22:25,320 Speaker 1: symbol on your chest and the gun on your hip, 3532 03:22:25,640 --> 03:22:29,840 Speaker 1: and it's really easy to let that slip and just 3533 03:22:29,959 --> 03:22:35,040 Speaker 1: become everything about you. Um. Yeah, remember permissions, like so 3534 03:22:35,320 --> 03:22:37,320 Speaker 1: permission to date and things like that might sound a 3535 03:22:37,360 --> 03:22:42,480 Speaker 1: little weird, but there are times where like my wife 3536 03:22:42,520 --> 03:22:45,640 Speaker 1: and I don't dress like the typical conservative Central Valley person, 3537 03:22:46,200 --> 03:22:50,520 Speaker 1: uh and act out of work functions. I would get 3538 03:22:50,560 --> 03:22:53,240 Speaker 1: I would get comments from people being like hey, maybe, yeah, 3539 03:22:53,400 --> 03:22:55,280 Speaker 1: your your wife has a lot of really colorful hair, 3540 03:22:55,440 --> 03:23:01,360 Speaker 1: like maybe she should tone that down. And again that 3541 03:23:01,480 --> 03:23:03,840 Speaker 1: was another one where I'm like, what, No, that's my wife. 3542 03:23:03,920 --> 03:23:08,000 Speaker 1: She can do whatever she damn well wants. Yeah, I 3543 03:23:08,040 --> 03:23:10,320 Speaker 1: mean that's that's that's the kind of talking that should 3544 03:23:10,320 --> 03:23:16,800 Speaker 1: get somebody slapped upside the head. Yeah. Um, the uh. 3545 03:23:17,879 --> 03:23:20,600 Speaker 1: The next thing you have here is the group is elitist, 3546 03:23:20,720 --> 03:23:23,720 Speaker 1: claiming a special exalted status for itself, it's leader and 3547 03:23:23,800 --> 03:23:26,760 Speaker 1: its members. The leader is and I'm interested in kind 3548 03:23:26,800 --> 03:23:29,000 Speaker 1: of because you you have you have elements of this 3549 03:23:29,240 --> 03:23:32,400 Speaker 1: right um with it like the sheep dog thing. We're 3550 03:23:32,480 --> 03:23:34,480 Speaker 1: kind of like the cop is the center of the 3551 03:23:34,560 --> 03:23:37,840 Speaker 1: cult for people who are not Cop Coults. I don't know, 3552 03:23:38,040 --> 03:23:40,680 Speaker 1: like does this exist, Like I don't see like cult 3553 03:23:40,840 --> 03:23:43,680 Speaker 1: a cult leader sort of within this this thing. I 3554 03:23:43,720 --> 03:23:45,920 Speaker 1: think it's it's almost more nebulous than that, where this 3555 03:23:46,080 --> 03:23:49,640 Speaker 1: idea of the agent of the law is kind of 3556 03:23:49,720 --> 03:23:51,720 Speaker 1: the center of the cult that the people who are 3557 03:23:51,800 --> 03:23:54,640 Speaker 1: agents of the law buy into, as well as folks 3558 03:23:54,720 --> 03:23:56,920 Speaker 1: outside of it. You know, I don't know, this is 3559 03:23:57,200 --> 03:23:59,120 Speaker 1: probably deserve any I mean, I'm interested in your thoughts 3560 03:23:59,160 --> 03:24:03,360 Speaker 1: on this. This probably deserves significantly more analysis then we're 3561 03:24:03,400 --> 03:24:05,120 Speaker 1: going to give it today. But I think it's a 3562 03:24:05,160 --> 03:24:07,480 Speaker 1: fascinating thing to think about. Right. It's kind of like 3563 03:24:07,520 --> 03:24:10,400 Speaker 1: how I when I put earlier that the criminal justice 3564 03:24:10,440 --> 03:24:13,240 Speaker 1: system is the direct substitute for God. It is God, 3565 03:24:13,360 --> 03:24:15,720 Speaker 1: the law is God. I mean, how many times have 3566 03:24:15,800 --> 03:24:18,400 Speaker 1: you gotten into a debate with someone where they'll be like, well, 3567 03:24:18,640 --> 03:24:21,320 Speaker 1: it's ethically fine because it's legal, and you're like, well, no, 3568 03:24:21,480 --> 03:24:26,160 Speaker 1: legality does not equal you know, ethical or moral and there. 3569 03:24:26,320 --> 03:24:29,200 Speaker 1: But there's these people in America who are just like, no, 3570 03:24:29,320 --> 03:24:32,280 Speaker 1: if it's legal, it's legal, that means it's okay. Yeah. 3571 03:24:32,520 --> 03:24:36,240 Speaker 1: And the elitism, yeah, it's obvious. I mean, if you've 3572 03:24:36,280 --> 03:24:38,560 Speaker 1: met it is kind of a religious belief though, that like, yeah, 3573 03:24:38,800 --> 03:24:41,480 Speaker 1: it's illegal, so it's bad. She there were a criminal, 3574 03:24:41,600 --> 03:24:46,359 Speaker 1: so they deserved X, like making a making a homebrewed 3575 03:24:46,480 --> 03:24:48,480 Speaker 1: cleric that believed in the law for D, and D 3576 03:24:48,680 --> 03:24:52,320 Speaker 1: was pretty easy to be like, Yeah, this is a church, 3577 03:24:52,440 --> 03:24:56,120 Speaker 1: this is a religion. Um, yeah it is. It is 3578 03:24:56,160 --> 03:24:58,360 Speaker 1: the sheep dog um on on sheep and the you know, 3579 03:24:58,440 --> 03:25:00,320 Speaker 1: it's us against the wolves and blah blah law. And 3580 03:25:00,400 --> 03:25:03,040 Speaker 1: then we have a guy's name in here that I 3581 03:25:03,080 --> 03:25:06,320 Speaker 1: won't say, uh for anonymity. But we had we had 3582 03:25:06,360 --> 03:25:08,680 Speaker 1: a braska, a lieutenant that would give us these prepared 3583 03:25:08,760 --> 03:25:12,640 Speaker 1: speeches whenever he thought someone's morale was getting low, uh, 3584 03:25:12,800 --> 03:25:15,160 Speaker 1: where he would talk about how and he was wrong 3585 03:25:15,400 --> 03:25:19,640 Speaker 1: that the word sheriff comes from um like sanscript or 3586 03:25:19,720 --> 03:25:23,879 Speaker 1: Arabic sharif, which is not true. It comes from shire Reeve. 3587 03:25:23,920 --> 03:25:27,880 Speaker 1: It's old English, just squished because English is a hideous language. Um. 3588 03:25:29,400 --> 03:25:31,720 Speaker 1: But he had to. I mean, I can't count how 3589 03:25:31,760 --> 03:25:34,400 Speaker 1: many times he told me that exact same speech to 3590 03:25:34,560 --> 03:25:37,680 Speaker 1: my face, over and over again, as if it was 3591 03:25:37,720 --> 03:25:41,320 Speaker 1: the first time I was hearing the story. And to me, 3592 03:25:41,520 --> 03:25:43,240 Speaker 1: that was another thing that clicked where I'm like, God, 3593 03:25:43,280 --> 03:25:45,640 Speaker 1: it's like talking, It's like a call and response when 3594 03:25:45,680 --> 03:25:50,480 Speaker 1: you're in church sometimes. Yeah, anytime you confront a religious person, 3595 03:25:51,040 --> 03:25:54,359 Speaker 1: they just they have that that that that dogmatic skeew 3596 03:25:54,520 --> 03:25:56,840 Speaker 1: that regurgitates and just like, well, here's my opinion that 3597 03:25:56,920 --> 03:26:01,480 Speaker 1: I was told by someone who told me. Okay, So Alexander, UM, 3598 03:26:01,640 --> 03:26:03,120 Speaker 1: we've got more to say. You've got a lot more 3599 03:26:03,120 --> 03:26:05,720 Speaker 1: that you've written here. Um, we're gonna we've gone kind 3600 03:26:05,760 --> 03:26:07,560 Speaker 1: of a little over the time we had here. So 3601 03:26:07,640 --> 03:26:10,680 Speaker 1: I want to have you back on tomorrow for part 3602 03:26:10,760 --> 03:26:13,040 Speaker 1: two of this before we roll out. Do you have 3603 03:26:13,080 --> 03:26:19,960 Speaker 1: anything you'd like to plug? Maybe the Washington State Patrol? No? Um, No, 3604 03:26:20,080 --> 03:26:22,200 Speaker 1: I don't really have anything to plug. I'm I'm never 3605 03:26:22,320 --> 03:26:25,200 Speaker 1: say die where all the easier threes because I'm that 3606 03:26:25,400 --> 03:26:31,160 Speaker 1: elder nerd from the nineties. Yeah, and uh saw hackers 3607 03:26:31,200 --> 03:26:33,680 Speaker 1: in the theater. I it's claimed to fame. So yeah, 3608 03:26:34,320 --> 03:26:36,240 Speaker 1: on Twitter if you want to come see me. How 3609 03:26:36,280 --> 03:26:45,560 Speaker 1: are your hips doing that? It's okay, Garrison's never seen 3610 03:26:45,600 --> 03:26:50,680 Speaker 1: Wayne's World. Oh I know that's true. That's true. Too young. 3611 03:26:51,640 --> 03:26:53,959 Speaker 1: I tried to show Wayne's World to my brother, who's 3612 03:26:54,360 --> 03:26:57,760 Speaker 1: still like five years older than Garrison, and did not take. 3613 03:26:58,240 --> 03:27:03,160 Speaker 1: Didn't take. It's it's it's time thing. My oldest is 3614 03:27:03,160 --> 03:27:11,240 Speaker 1: about four years younger than Garrison, and they've seen Wien's World. Wow. Okay, Ah, 3615 03:27:24,640 --> 03:27:27,520 Speaker 1: look to your children's eyes to see the true magic 3616 03:27:27,680 --> 03:27:31,040 Speaker 1: of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You 3617 03:27:31,200 --> 03:27:34,199 Speaker 1: look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face 3618 03:27:34,280 --> 03:27:37,600 Speaker 1: of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They 3619 03:27:37,680 --> 03:27:40,760 Speaker 1: see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that 3620 03:27:40,920 --> 03:27:45,199 Speaker 1: could lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide. 3621 03:27:45,440 --> 03:27:48,640 Speaker 1: Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and 3622 03:27:48,760 --> 03:27:51,760 Speaker 1: start exploring and discover the forest dot Org brought to 3623 03:27:51,760 --> 03:27:54,320 Speaker 1: you by the United States Forest Service and the ad Council. 3624 03:27:54,840 --> 03:27:58,320 Speaker 1: Hay Lead the listeners take here. Last season on Lethal Lit, 3625 03:27:58,800 --> 03:28:01,760 Speaker 1: you might remember I came to Hollow Falls on a 3626 03:28:01,879 --> 03:28:06,640 Speaker 1: mission clearing my aunt fascination and making sure justice was 3627 03:28:06,800 --> 03:28:10,600 Speaker 1: finally served. But I hadn't counted on a rash of 3628 03:28:10,760 --> 03:28:14,920 Speaker 1: new murders tearing apart the town. My mission put myself 3629 03:28:15,080 --> 03:28:19,039 Speaker 1: and my friends in danger, though it wasn't all bad. 3630 03:28:19,480 --> 03:28:23,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to be reality Tig, I like you, but 3631 03:28:23,600 --> 03:28:26,800 Speaker 1: now all signs point to a new serial killer in 3632 03:28:26,879 --> 03:28:30,800 Speaker 1: Hollow Falls. If this game is just starting, you better 3633 03:28:30,879 --> 03:28:36,120 Speaker 1: believe I'm gonna win. I'm Tig Torres and this is 3634 03:28:36,200 --> 03:28:39,280 Speaker 1: Lethal Lit. Catch up on season one of the hit 3635 03:28:39,360 --> 03:28:42,720 Speaker 1: Murder mystery podcast, Lethal Lit, a tig Tara's Mystery out now, 3636 03:28:43,080 --> 03:28:45,360 Speaker 1: and then tune in for all new thrills in season two, 3637 03:28:45,640 --> 03:28:48,959 Speaker 1: dropping weekly starting February nine. Subscribe now to never miss 3638 03:28:48,959 --> 03:28:51,040 Speaker 1: an episode. Listen to Leave the Lit on the I 3639 03:28:51,160 --> 03:28:54,360 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, 3640 03:29:00,959 --> 03:29:05,480 Speaker 1: ah where it's us, the podcast that we are. It 3641 03:29:05,600 --> 03:29:11,120 Speaker 1: could happen here behind the podcast bad stuff. It could 3642 03:29:11,160 --> 03:29:13,920 Speaker 1: happen here, it is, it could happen here. Okay, Well, 3643 03:29:14,200 --> 03:29:17,440 Speaker 1: Part two of Why Police are Occult? Thanks Garrison, Thanks 3644 03:29:17,480 --> 03:29:20,119 Speaker 1: for doing the job. That is one of our jobs, certainly, 3645 03:29:20,959 --> 03:29:26,000 Speaker 1: but apparently not mine. Alexander Williams back again? Um, Alexander, 3646 03:29:27,040 --> 03:29:29,840 Speaker 1: how are you? How are you feeling good? Was your 3647 03:29:29,920 --> 03:29:32,040 Speaker 1: life in a radically different place now than it was 3648 03:29:32,120 --> 03:29:38,760 Speaker 1: when we ended part one? Oh yeah? Like no, Well 3649 03:29:38,879 --> 03:29:41,280 Speaker 1: that's for the best, because anything that would change in 3650 03:29:41,360 --> 03:29:44,240 Speaker 1: about the thirty seconds between these episodes probably would not 3651 03:29:44,280 --> 03:29:47,600 Speaker 1: have been a positive change. You're letting the magic out. 3652 03:29:47,680 --> 03:29:53,080 Speaker 1: People are gonna know. Yeah, they should know already. Uh So. 3653 03:29:54,240 --> 03:29:56,040 Speaker 1: The next thing you've got here, in terms of cult 3654 03:29:56,120 --> 03:30:00,320 Speaker 1: characteristics that you saw inside the Police is the group 3655 03:30:00,400 --> 03:30:02,920 Speaker 1: has a polarized us versus them mentality which may cause 3656 03:30:03,000 --> 03:30:08,200 Speaker 1: conflict with the wider society. Um yeah, And I think 3657 03:30:08,240 --> 03:30:10,440 Speaker 1: this is the one that like, yeah, we've all we 3658 03:30:10,520 --> 03:30:13,080 Speaker 1: all kind of saw that one. Actually, are you sure 3659 03:30:13,120 --> 03:30:16,720 Speaker 1: about that one? I'm not convinced. Yeah, it was a 3660 03:30:16,800 --> 03:30:22,800 Speaker 1: Eureka moment, right, Yeah. Um, I do think it's probably 3661 03:30:22,879 --> 03:30:25,480 Speaker 1: worth a little bit of exploration about like what it 3662 03:30:25,760 --> 03:30:31,720 Speaker 1: means emotionally to be told like I want to defund 3663 03:30:31,879 --> 03:30:34,560 Speaker 1: or even abolish the police as a police officer, like 3664 03:30:34,720 --> 03:30:41,520 Speaker 1: that's that's a um yeah. Yeah. I remember the first 3665 03:30:41,560 --> 03:30:44,400 Speaker 1: time that I heard that, the concept of it when 3666 03:30:44,440 --> 03:30:46,199 Speaker 1: I was a cop. I think I was about five 3667 03:30:46,320 --> 03:30:50,160 Speaker 1: years away from getting out, um, and it blew my mind. 3668 03:30:50,240 --> 03:30:52,480 Speaker 1: It was it was like I'm like, you don't know, 3669 03:30:52,640 --> 03:30:54,840 Speaker 1: we don't have enough funding, Like how how in the world, 3670 03:30:55,320 --> 03:30:57,480 Speaker 1: But we can't do our job because in you know, 3671 03:30:57,600 --> 03:31:01,040 Speaker 1: in our in my head, we're where the thing holding 3672 03:31:01,120 --> 03:31:06,520 Speaker 1: society up. If we're not here, everything falls apart and crumbles. Um. So, 3673 03:31:06,680 --> 03:31:08,960 Speaker 1: the idea of being told like we need to defund 3674 03:31:09,000 --> 03:31:12,240 Speaker 1: the police for cops, it's it's an attack on your 3675 03:31:12,320 --> 03:31:15,040 Speaker 1: values and your role in the world. It's also attack 3676 03:31:15,080 --> 03:31:18,520 Speaker 1: on like your personal life because because your life is 3677 03:31:18,640 --> 03:31:21,800 Speaker 1: police as well, right, and and and it's and it's 3678 03:31:21,840 --> 03:31:24,320 Speaker 1: like you're you've you've been talking a lot about how 3679 03:31:25,160 --> 03:31:27,600 Speaker 1: the job becomes such a central part of your identity 3680 03:31:27,680 --> 03:31:30,640 Speaker 1: that it's not even just attacking like your paycheck, but 3681 03:31:30,680 --> 03:31:34,120 Speaker 1: it's attacking like your essence now as a person. It 3682 03:31:34,320 --> 03:31:36,240 Speaker 1: is It's like if you've ever had a debate with 3683 03:31:37,080 --> 03:31:41,360 Speaker 1: with an extremely like evangelical religious person, it's the same 3684 03:31:41,400 --> 03:31:43,080 Speaker 1: as trying to tell a cop like, hey, you don't 3685 03:31:43,080 --> 03:31:45,880 Speaker 1: actually hold society up. You're not exactly as important as 3686 03:31:45,879 --> 03:31:48,640 Speaker 1: you think you are. Um. And like I said, like, 3687 03:31:48,720 --> 03:31:50,520 Speaker 1: we don't get we don't get paid very much. Health 3688 03:31:50,600 --> 03:31:54,400 Speaker 1: insurance usually isn't that good um our our unions that 3689 03:31:54,520 --> 03:31:56,960 Speaker 1: we toad as being the best, we're usually pretty corrupt um. 3690 03:31:58,040 --> 03:32:00,320 Speaker 1: And they don't really go to bat for us and 3691 03:32:00,440 --> 03:32:02,120 Speaker 1: get us the good health insurance and get us the 3692 03:32:02,160 --> 03:32:04,720 Speaker 1: good pay. They get us just enough. And so when 3693 03:32:04,760 --> 03:32:07,160 Speaker 1: a cop here's like, hey, we defund the police, it's 3694 03:32:07,240 --> 03:32:11,200 Speaker 1: like from our perspective, we think what we're hearing is 3695 03:32:11,360 --> 03:32:13,600 Speaker 1: we don't appreciate you. We already think you get paid 3696 03:32:13,640 --> 03:32:16,640 Speaker 1: too much. We we think of it less about like 3697 03:32:16,800 --> 03:32:19,440 Speaker 1: the structure of law enforcement, and we think it personally 3698 03:32:19,480 --> 03:32:22,640 Speaker 1: of like, oh, you don't think my kids should have dinner? Yeah, 3699 03:32:23,040 --> 03:32:26,320 Speaker 1: And that's uh, I mean yeah, of course that has 3700 03:32:26,480 --> 03:32:28,840 Speaker 1: like of course it ends the way that we saw 3701 03:32:28,920 --> 03:32:31,520 Speaker 1: it in you know, or at least it continues the 3702 03:32:31,560 --> 03:32:34,480 Speaker 1: way we saw it and continue last year, right, And 3703 03:32:35,080 --> 03:32:38,720 Speaker 1: and it's I think it could help like people like 3704 03:32:38,879 --> 03:32:40,760 Speaker 1: us are on one side of the line and you know, 3705 03:32:40,920 --> 03:32:42,160 Speaker 1: the other people are on the other side of the 3706 03:32:42,240 --> 03:32:44,920 Speaker 1: line still, and I think it could help people on 3707 03:32:45,040 --> 03:32:47,440 Speaker 1: our side of the of the of the barricades to 3708 03:32:47,640 --> 03:32:51,280 Speaker 1: understand just how willing these guys are to do things 3709 03:32:51,760 --> 03:32:54,800 Speaker 1: and things that they wouldn't normally do, things that you 3710 03:32:54,840 --> 03:32:58,160 Speaker 1: would never consider doing on your own, but for the 3711 03:32:58,280 --> 03:33:02,600 Speaker 1: job and as in order, they'll do it because again 3712 03:33:02,640 --> 03:33:05,960 Speaker 1: it's part of their identity, and it's it's there. You know, 3713 03:33:06,000 --> 03:33:08,600 Speaker 1: you're attacking me. You're also attacking my family, You're you're 3714 03:33:09,640 --> 03:33:12,240 Speaker 1: It goes back to that grossman thing of being told 3715 03:33:12,240 --> 03:33:16,800 Speaker 1: a lot of um, no matter what you do, you 3716 03:33:16,920 --> 03:33:19,320 Speaker 1: go home tonight. So no matter what I do on 3717 03:33:19,400 --> 03:33:21,800 Speaker 1: my shift, I go home tonight. It's better to be 3718 03:33:22,360 --> 03:33:30,040 Speaker 1: judged by twelve and carried by six. Yeah, yeah, like 3719 03:33:30,280 --> 03:33:32,119 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of like the police of the riot line, 3720 03:33:32,160 --> 03:33:34,680 Speaker 1: and yeah, you can see them being like middle aged 3721 03:33:34,680 --> 03:33:38,040 Speaker 1: conservative dudes, like look at all these like fucking like 3722 03:33:38,400 --> 03:33:41,400 Speaker 1: gay queer teenagers throws to fat me. Right, it's like 3723 03:33:41,440 --> 03:33:44,200 Speaker 1: the specific thing you're like, oh you you like I'm 3724 03:33:44,240 --> 03:33:46,680 Speaker 1: getting attacked by like the lowest of the low society. 3725 03:33:46,720 --> 03:33:49,840 Speaker 1: I'm being attacked by like did like degenerates and like 3726 03:33:49,959 --> 03:33:54,080 Speaker 1: this weird kind of scum. I'm actually what society should be. 3727 03:33:54,520 --> 03:33:56,760 Speaker 1: The people that are fighting against me are like this 3728 03:33:57,000 --> 03:34:00,360 Speaker 1: weird anti social thing, right, That's that's how from their 3729 03:34:00,400 --> 03:34:04,480 Speaker 1: perspective um when almost an actuality. I've been I've been 3730 03:34:04,560 --> 03:34:08,280 Speaker 1: slowly kind of appropriating that type of language for when 3731 03:34:08,280 --> 03:34:10,720 Speaker 1: I see a cop do something horrible, I'm like, wow, 3732 03:34:10,840 --> 03:34:13,760 Speaker 1: look at that, like anti social, violent freak, because you 3733 03:34:13,840 --> 03:34:16,600 Speaker 1: can look at that language because it flips the way 3734 03:34:16,680 --> 03:34:21,000 Speaker 1: we usually view like aesthetics when you know, because like 3735 03:34:21,040 --> 03:34:23,800 Speaker 1: when you see someone do something horribly horribly violent but 3736 03:34:23,840 --> 03:34:25,840 Speaker 1: they addressed in a uniform, it is it has the 3737 03:34:25,920 --> 03:34:28,600 Speaker 1: appearance of being proper, but like, no, that actually still 3738 03:34:28,800 --> 03:34:32,039 Speaker 1: is anti social and extremely violent. So I think I've 3739 03:34:32,080 --> 03:34:35,280 Speaker 1: been playing around with like flip flipping that language. But 3740 03:34:35,400 --> 03:34:37,600 Speaker 1: you can definitely see it on the cops faces when 3741 03:34:37,640 --> 03:34:40,760 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of like young queer as fun people 3742 03:34:40,840 --> 03:34:43,840 Speaker 1: are throwing water bottles at them. Oh yeah, you can't. 3743 03:34:43,920 --> 03:34:45,600 Speaker 1: And and the thing that to the thing to remember 3744 03:34:45,640 --> 03:34:49,360 Speaker 1: about most cops is they're there. Their ego is paper 3745 03:34:49,440 --> 03:34:53,080 Speaker 1: thin their skin. They cannot take a joke, they cannot 3746 03:34:53,120 --> 03:34:56,040 Speaker 1: take an insult. The the number of cops that I 3747 03:34:56,080 --> 03:34:58,000 Speaker 1: would see, and I would argue that I saw some 3748 03:34:58,080 --> 03:35:00,480 Speaker 1: of the worst worst behavior than on the eats, because 3749 03:35:00,760 --> 03:35:03,120 Speaker 1: because inside the jail you're you know, you're in your 3750 03:35:03,120 --> 03:35:05,320 Speaker 1: own little world. You're inside these walls. The public can't 3751 03:35:05,360 --> 03:35:08,640 Speaker 1: see you unless you're on camera and prebody cameras, you 3752 03:35:08,720 --> 03:35:12,760 Speaker 1: know where all the cameras are. And I the the 3753 03:35:12,840 --> 03:35:14,959 Speaker 1: amount of guys that like an inmate would call them 3754 03:35:15,080 --> 03:35:19,120 Speaker 1: like the f slur or any other slur and the 3755 03:35:19,200 --> 03:35:24,480 Speaker 1: cop would just snap, we just lose their mind. And 3756 03:35:25,600 --> 03:35:27,760 Speaker 1: me and another couple other guys being the only kind 3757 03:35:27,760 --> 03:35:29,160 Speaker 1: of cops that would get in the guy's way and 3758 03:35:29,200 --> 03:35:31,400 Speaker 1: be like no, And it was never we couldn't say no, 3759 03:35:31,560 --> 03:35:34,200 Speaker 1: that's wrong, don't do that. It was always no, it's 3760 03:35:34,240 --> 03:35:36,080 Speaker 1: not worth it, or no, you're gonna get in trouble 3761 03:35:36,320 --> 03:35:39,119 Speaker 1: or no, you know if you do that, he wins man, 3762 03:35:39,400 --> 03:35:43,520 Speaker 1: because if we said don't do that, it's wrong. We 3763 03:35:43,680 --> 03:35:46,040 Speaker 1: may have we may have stopped that bad thing from happening, 3764 03:35:46,160 --> 03:35:50,000 Speaker 1: but we have now marked ourselves as being, you know, 3765 03:35:50,080 --> 03:35:57,600 Speaker 1: potential apostates against the close. Um. So yeah, that's yeah. 3766 03:35:57,840 --> 03:36:00,240 Speaker 1: Calling them names works. Sixt and stones do brey Cops 3767 03:36:00,280 --> 03:36:02,720 Speaker 1: bones Like, Oh boy, it does work. Like in terms 3768 03:36:02,760 --> 03:36:06,360 Speaker 1: of if if the goal is make them extremely angry, yes, 3769 03:36:07,720 --> 03:36:14,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't work. It's yeah. Obviously. The next one you've 3770 03:36:14,240 --> 03:36:16,200 Speaker 1: got is the leader. The leader is not accountable to 3771 03:36:16,240 --> 03:36:20,560 Speaker 1: any authorities, um, which the police regulate and investigate themselves. 3772 03:36:20,600 --> 03:36:22,480 Speaker 1: That's one of the most basic ones. But it does 3773 03:36:23,400 --> 03:36:25,920 Speaker 1: it kind of. It does lead to this, like it 3774 03:36:26,080 --> 03:36:28,320 Speaker 1: is interesting to think about the way the Church of 3775 03:36:28,400 --> 03:36:33,600 Speaker 1: Scientology handles uh misbehavior from its agents and the way 3776 03:36:33,680 --> 03:36:36,240 Speaker 1: that like a police department does. Because there's not a 3777 03:36:36,360 --> 03:36:39,360 Speaker 1: ton of daylight betwixt the two. There's not listening to 3778 03:36:39,440 --> 03:36:42,600 Speaker 1: you the l Ron episodes. Anyone who hasn't listened to them, 3779 03:36:42,640 --> 03:36:45,120 Speaker 1: go back and listen to them. They're fantastic. One of 3780 03:36:45,160 --> 03:36:48,840 Speaker 1: my favorites um, Yeah. Listening to that and the way 3781 03:36:48,920 --> 03:36:51,960 Speaker 1: that they're a little internalized security system was structured was 3782 03:36:52,959 --> 03:36:56,560 Speaker 1: very very analog to exactly what happens in law enforcement 3783 03:36:56,640 --> 03:37:01,279 Speaker 1: when they're so so called policing themselves b s. Because 3784 03:37:01,800 --> 03:37:06,760 Speaker 1: god they don't. They'll do every little thing to manipulate 3785 03:37:06,840 --> 03:37:09,640 Speaker 1: the situation to have the cop come out on top 3786 03:37:09,760 --> 03:37:12,119 Speaker 1: and not be in trouble because who's gonna all them 3787 03:37:12,160 --> 03:37:15,400 Speaker 1: responsible that my own guy at my own department's interviewing me. 3788 03:37:16,879 --> 03:37:19,320 Speaker 1: We've known each other since you were kids, or I've 3789 03:37:19,360 --> 03:37:22,600 Speaker 1: known his dad, or his dad's known me, or or 3790 03:37:22,680 --> 03:37:27,280 Speaker 1: he's you know, related or whatever. It never works when 3791 03:37:27,320 --> 03:37:30,560 Speaker 1: the you know, the watchman are watching themselves. It doesn't work. 3792 03:37:31,120 --> 03:37:34,160 Speaker 1: I don't know how. We don't, well I do, you 3793 03:37:34,240 --> 03:37:36,960 Speaker 1: know how, But I really wish there was if we 3794 03:37:37,080 --> 03:37:41,120 Speaker 1: do have to still have law enforcement civilian oversight with 3795 03:37:41,280 --> 03:37:46,400 Speaker 1: actual power, actual authority to do. Yeah. That's that's the 3796 03:37:46,480 --> 03:37:48,440 Speaker 1: thing is that everywhere and a lot of the times 3797 03:37:48,600 --> 03:37:52,680 Speaker 1: that's been try to put into legislator, it doesn't. It's 3798 03:37:52,720 --> 03:37:56,440 Speaker 1: always like neutered. It's always like and I like, I've 3799 03:37:56,680 --> 03:37:59,560 Speaker 1: I've seen versions of it pop up in Portland and 3800 03:37:59,640 --> 03:38:04,600 Speaker 1: it never does anything. Yeah, And that's I mean, obviously 3801 03:38:04,680 --> 03:38:07,920 Speaker 1: the whole the question of is to what extent can 3802 03:38:08,080 --> 03:38:11,920 Speaker 1: increasing civilian oversight uh solve problems? To what extent is 3803 03:38:11,959 --> 03:38:16,560 Speaker 1: it like papering over them? Those are all things worth discussing. Um. 3804 03:38:17,040 --> 03:38:18,880 Speaker 1: I think I want to kind of keep us focused 3805 03:38:19,000 --> 03:38:23,200 Speaker 1: on the mindset that that inclcates, because that that's the 3806 03:38:23,280 --> 03:38:26,360 Speaker 1: thing that I don't think people get in part because 3807 03:38:26,440 --> 03:38:29,360 Speaker 1: like most people who are part of these abolitionous movements, 3808 03:38:29,400 --> 03:38:31,400 Speaker 1: most people who are are on the sides that we 3809 03:38:31,520 --> 03:38:35,080 Speaker 1: are on this um either probably don't know a police 3810 03:38:35,120 --> 03:38:37,640 Speaker 1: officer very well apart and certainly almost most of them 3811 03:38:37,680 --> 03:38:40,760 Speaker 1: have not been police officers. And I'm kind of wondering, 3812 03:38:42,760 --> 03:38:46,160 Speaker 1: what are you actually scared of doing as a police officer, 3813 03:38:46,879 --> 03:38:49,680 Speaker 1: Like what what what are you actually scared of in 3814 03:38:49,840 --> 03:38:53,200 Speaker 1: terms of like the blowback, the fault, Like what what 3815 03:38:53,360 --> 03:38:55,600 Speaker 1: is it you actually get worried about if it's not 3816 03:38:56,959 --> 03:38:59,240 Speaker 1: pissing off everyone else in the city who wasn't a cop, 3817 03:38:59,280 --> 03:39:03,720 Speaker 1: you know it? So, Yeah, what it comes down to is, uh, 3818 03:39:04,320 --> 03:39:07,240 Speaker 1: you know that the the Church of law, the Church 3819 03:39:07,280 --> 03:39:11,600 Speaker 1: of criminal justice, and what they're scared of is so 3820 03:39:11,800 --> 03:39:15,560 Speaker 1: if I get a dirty cop who's not blatantly doing 3821 03:39:15,640 --> 03:39:17,800 Speaker 1: something bad, like he just he hit a guy too 3822 03:39:17,879 --> 03:39:21,959 Speaker 1: hard or something. It's something that hasn't hit the news yet. Um, 3823 03:39:22,600 --> 03:39:25,640 Speaker 1: but I have to morally, like ethically, on paper, I'm 3824 03:39:25,760 --> 03:39:28,440 Speaker 1: required to have an I A division investigate these people. 3825 03:39:29,400 --> 03:39:32,959 Speaker 1: The reason that in my head when I was there 3826 03:39:33,280 --> 03:39:36,400 Speaker 1: and being interviewed for these things, it's because you have 3827 03:39:36,560 --> 03:39:40,760 Speaker 1: to hold up the infallibility of the law. It doesn't 3828 03:39:40,920 --> 03:39:45,280 Speaker 1: matter what really happened. All that matters is what's in 3829 03:39:45,440 --> 03:39:47,800 Speaker 1: black and white on paper in our files. If we 3830 03:39:47,879 --> 03:39:51,680 Speaker 1: ever get audited by a federal body and we can say, look, 3831 03:39:51,800 --> 03:39:54,360 Speaker 1: a bad thing happened, Yes, we investigated it, here's what 3832 03:39:54,480 --> 03:39:57,760 Speaker 1: Here were the results. And it's all about holding up 3833 03:39:58,000 --> 03:40:02,000 Speaker 1: the infallibility of the law, because if it really gets 3834 03:40:02,040 --> 03:40:04,720 Speaker 1: out and cops really get in trouble for stuff like 3835 03:40:04,800 --> 03:40:06,800 Speaker 1: some of the stuff that's been happening where cops are 3836 03:40:06,840 --> 03:40:11,720 Speaker 1: actually being convicted finally for doing terrible things, it erodes 3837 03:40:12,360 --> 03:40:15,880 Speaker 1: the blind faith that the masses have in law enforcement. 3838 03:40:15,959 --> 03:40:19,080 Speaker 1: Because I've heard people here in Utah, which is a 3839 03:40:19,240 --> 03:40:22,760 Speaker 1: very conservative place, look at some of those shootings that 3840 03:40:22,840 --> 03:40:24,800 Speaker 1: have happened where the cops have actually been found guilty 3841 03:40:24,879 --> 03:40:27,760 Speaker 1: and they've actually been like, oh wow, like I never 3842 03:40:27,920 --> 03:40:29,920 Speaker 1: once thought a cop would do this, And it doesn't 3843 03:40:29,959 --> 03:40:31,960 Speaker 1: sound like much, but in their head, that's that's a 3844 03:40:32,040 --> 03:40:36,520 Speaker 1: seed that's setting in their consciousness. And that's that's the 3845 03:40:36,600 --> 03:40:39,879 Speaker 1: whole point of the blue wall of silence and keeping 3846 03:40:39,920 --> 03:40:45,000 Speaker 1: everything in the house is if everybody realizes that we're 3847 03:40:45,040 --> 03:40:47,440 Speaker 1: just a little weird man behind a curtain, you know, 3848 03:40:47,560 --> 03:40:49,720 Speaker 1: the Wizard of Oz doesn't work anymore. We have to 3849 03:40:49,840 --> 03:40:54,960 Speaker 1: maintain this false image that we are infallible and we 3850 03:40:55,040 --> 03:40:57,360 Speaker 1: know we know exactly what we're doing, and we are 3851 03:40:57,480 --> 03:41:00,360 Speaker 1: taking care of you. You have to believe that, so 3852 03:41:00,480 --> 03:41:06,360 Speaker 1: they'll do anything to maintain the lie. Wow. Yeah that 3853 03:41:06,440 --> 03:41:11,200 Speaker 1: makes sense. It's bleak, but it makes sense. Yeah, it 3854 03:41:11,280 --> 03:41:15,280 Speaker 1: felt bleak being in there. This ties into kind of 3855 03:41:16,440 --> 03:41:20,920 Speaker 1: the the role of like lying right and and and 3856 03:41:21,120 --> 03:41:22,800 Speaker 1: the kind of the cult thing you're tying this into 3857 03:41:22,959 --> 03:41:25,880 Speaker 1: is that like colts will often talk about how the 3858 03:41:26,840 --> 03:41:28,640 Speaker 1: things the cult is doing are so important that you 3859 03:41:28,720 --> 03:41:30,760 Speaker 1: can do terrible things to achieve them, right. You see 3860 03:41:30,760 --> 03:41:33,720 Speaker 1: this in the Church of Scientology and their Dirty Tricks programs. 3861 03:41:33,800 --> 03:41:36,560 Speaker 1: Sent and On had its its version of this um 3862 03:41:37,160 --> 03:41:39,000 Speaker 1: and you you've written here. We are taught to lie 3863 03:41:39,120 --> 03:41:41,160 Speaker 1: to get what we need. It's only true if it's 3864 03:41:41,200 --> 03:41:43,480 Speaker 1: on tape or written down. As long as it looks good, 3865 03:41:43,600 --> 03:41:47,480 Speaker 1: it is good. Um and I uh, I mean it. 3866 03:41:47,600 --> 03:41:50,920 Speaker 1: It made me think, among other things, of a guy 3867 03:41:51,000 --> 03:41:56,119 Speaker 1: I used to know who became a local prosecutor um, 3868 03:41:56,720 --> 03:42:01,640 Speaker 1: and eventually quit because he kept being assured by police 3869 03:42:01,680 --> 03:42:04,680 Speaker 1: officers that like something that they had put in, like 3870 03:42:04,879 --> 03:42:07,200 Speaker 1: the charging document was true, and then being unable to 3871 03:42:07,240 --> 03:42:10,320 Speaker 1: prove it in court. Um. And it it pissed him 3872 03:42:10,360 --> 03:42:14,720 Speaker 1: off after a period of time. Um. And I'm interested, 3873 03:42:14,800 --> 03:42:19,360 Speaker 1: like in the I'm sure like obviously some fraction of 3874 03:42:19,440 --> 03:42:22,000 Speaker 1: people doing it are just like just literally don't give 3875 03:42:22,000 --> 03:42:24,840 Speaker 1: a ship. But how does someone who actually does have 3876 03:42:24,959 --> 03:42:28,760 Speaker 1: a moral compass and believe in the law. How does 3877 03:42:28,800 --> 03:42:35,000 Speaker 1: someone who really believes justify lying to screw somebody over. Um. 3878 03:42:37,720 --> 03:42:40,119 Speaker 1: So as the guy who was there, who had morals, 3879 03:42:40,160 --> 03:42:44,160 Speaker 1: which is why I'm not there anymore, I couldn't all right, 3880 03:42:44,200 --> 03:42:46,520 Speaker 1: And I actually got in trouble on a couple of 3881 03:42:46,600 --> 03:42:51,480 Speaker 1: instances of everybody was going one way on a story 3882 03:42:52,320 --> 03:42:55,560 Speaker 1: and I was going in the opposite direction. And without 3883 03:42:56,040 --> 03:42:58,520 Speaker 1: using blatant terms they use all the like the little 3884 03:42:59,600 --> 03:43:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, legal legal fuckory terms to not say what 3885 03:43:02,320 --> 03:43:04,560 Speaker 1: they're trying to say, but implying and getting it across 3886 03:43:04,560 --> 03:43:06,200 Speaker 1: to you of like you need to get on the 3887 03:43:06,280 --> 03:43:09,080 Speaker 1: same page, you need to tow the line, you need 3888 03:43:09,160 --> 03:43:12,760 Speaker 1: to you need to get in here. And I could 3889 03:43:12,840 --> 03:43:16,880 Speaker 1: never do it. I just I don't know, it's just 3890 03:43:17,000 --> 03:43:19,879 Speaker 1: my moral fiber won't let me do that kind of thing. Um. 3891 03:43:20,520 --> 03:43:24,840 Speaker 1: I once was told by a lieutenant that I had 3892 03:43:25,080 --> 03:43:27,840 Speaker 1: my moral fiber was too high, Like he literally told me, 3893 03:43:27,840 --> 03:43:29,480 Speaker 1: because you can't expect everyone else to live up to 3894 03:43:29,480 --> 03:43:34,000 Speaker 1: your moral standards. And I'm like, dude, we're we're supposed 3895 03:43:34,000 --> 03:43:37,720 Speaker 1: to be like a little bit above the typical moral standard. 3896 03:43:37,760 --> 03:43:40,960 Speaker 1: We're supposed to be the example of how you know, 3897 03:43:41,160 --> 03:43:46,120 Speaker 1: our civilians, our citizens are supposed to act. But it 3898 03:43:46,240 --> 03:43:49,840 Speaker 1: wasn't the truth. Yeah, I mean, my first I think 3899 03:43:49,920 --> 03:43:53,000 Speaker 1: kind of radicalizing thing very early on was just like 3900 03:43:53,040 --> 03:43:55,440 Speaker 1: the fake drug scandal in Dallas was realizing that like 3901 03:43:55,520 --> 03:44:01,160 Speaker 1: on a significant scale, uh, local police had been planting 3902 03:44:01,520 --> 03:44:03,840 Speaker 1: ship on people in order to charge them. People have 3903 03:44:03,920 --> 03:44:08,520 Speaker 1: gone to prison, which happens other places too, but like, yeah, um, 3904 03:44:09,280 --> 03:44:12,520 Speaker 1: and I'm the bulk of the work making something like 3905 03:44:12,600 --> 03:44:15,080 Speaker 1: that happen, isn't the people who are planting the fake drugs, 3906 03:44:15,240 --> 03:44:17,640 Speaker 1: the people who realize that the department will look bad 3907 03:44:17,720 --> 03:44:20,039 Speaker 1: if it gets out, and then dedicate themselves to stopping 3908 03:44:20,080 --> 03:44:23,200 Speaker 1: it from getting out even beyond because you have you know, 3909 03:44:23,480 --> 03:44:25,440 Speaker 1: X number of people are willing to plant plant fake 3910 03:44:25,520 --> 03:44:27,520 Speaker 1: drugs on a guy, but a much larger number of 3911 03:44:27,560 --> 03:44:29,280 Speaker 1: people are willing to try to cover that up, So 3912 03:44:29,400 --> 03:44:31,920 Speaker 1: it's not a problem. That's That's the thing I really 3913 03:44:31,959 --> 03:44:34,880 Speaker 1: appreciate about, Alex. You're framing of this in terms of 3914 03:44:35,040 --> 03:44:38,360 Speaker 1: like their main or not one of the main motivations 3915 03:44:38,440 --> 03:44:42,039 Speaker 1: is not, you know, actually doing the job itself. It's 3916 03:44:42,040 --> 03:44:46,439 Speaker 1: about it's about making sure that their reality and by extension, 3917 03:44:46,520 --> 03:44:48,640 Speaker 1: what they want everyone else as a reality to be, 3918 03:44:49,120 --> 03:44:51,640 Speaker 1: to stay the same. Like they all of the effort 3919 03:44:51,720 --> 03:44:55,080 Speaker 1: into whether that be lying for supposedly in their view, 3920 03:44:55,240 --> 03:44:57,520 Speaker 1: like moral reasons and all that kind of work. It's 3921 03:44:57,560 --> 03:45:01,800 Speaker 1: it's it's it's to maintain the specific verse s of reality. 3922 03:45:01,840 --> 03:45:04,200 Speaker 1: It's not it's not actually for like like it's it's 3923 03:45:04,200 --> 03:45:08,200 Speaker 1: it's not for like actually promoting what is like the 3924 03:45:08,320 --> 03:45:10,840 Speaker 1: law and the books by any means it's it's it's 3925 03:45:10,920 --> 03:45:13,200 Speaker 1: it's the it's the thing like in hot Fuzz, it's 3926 03:45:13,480 --> 03:45:15,600 Speaker 1: for the greater good. That's that's what that is. That 3927 03:45:15,760 --> 03:45:18,040 Speaker 1: is what they're trying to That's what they're trying to do. 3928 03:45:18,320 --> 03:45:21,720 Speaker 1: So even if they like, as long as their reality 3929 03:45:21,840 --> 03:45:26,120 Speaker 1: is maintained, then you know, we have some semblance of 3930 03:45:26,240 --> 03:45:28,720 Speaker 1: like order in the world, whether that be you know, 3931 03:45:28,959 --> 03:45:34,760 Speaker 1: this nostalgic, semi like proto militaristic nationalist version of order. 3932 03:45:35,040 --> 03:45:37,680 Speaker 1: But that's that's that's the thing that wants to be maintained. 3933 03:45:37,800 --> 03:45:41,520 Speaker 1: So every every task, everything that they're doing isn't just 3934 03:45:41,680 --> 03:45:44,440 Speaker 1: a simple task. It's all in the overall effort of 3935 03:45:44,600 --> 03:45:49,320 Speaker 1: maintaining this like this perception. Um. And and that's a 3936 03:45:50,480 --> 03:45:56,240 Speaker 1: a much more I think interesting way to think about police. Yeah, 3937 03:45:56,280 --> 03:45:59,160 Speaker 1: it really is. Uh, these guys in like in Bill talk, 3938 03:45:59,200 --> 03:46:01,000 Speaker 1: these guys would take the loopill in a heartbeat. Then 3939 03:46:01,000 --> 03:46:03,360 Speaker 1: they don't rest Morpheus for trying to deal drugs. Like 3940 03:46:03,480 --> 03:46:06,120 Speaker 1: that's how dedicated these guys are too, staying inside this 3941 03:46:07,160 --> 03:46:11,680 Speaker 1: version of their reality. Now, um, I kind of let's 3942 03:46:12,160 --> 03:46:16,080 Speaker 1: move on next to um the next kind of cult aspect. 3943 03:46:16,120 --> 03:46:18,440 Speaker 1: The leadership induces feelings of shame and or guilt in 3944 03:46:18,560 --> 03:46:21,360 Speaker 1: order to influence and control members. And you're talking you've 3945 03:46:21,400 --> 03:46:25,440 Speaker 1: lotten down here toxic masculinity and the warrior mindset. Yeah. Um, 3946 03:46:25,600 --> 03:46:27,680 Speaker 1: do you have any kind of like case examples of 3947 03:46:27,760 --> 03:46:30,879 Speaker 1: how that that actually looks of like kind of using 3948 03:46:30,920 --> 03:46:32,720 Speaker 1: shame or guilt to people who aren't kind of in 3949 03:46:32,879 --> 03:46:37,400 Speaker 1: the this quote quote unquote warrior mindset. Uh? Yeah, I 3950 03:46:37,440 --> 03:46:40,280 Speaker 1: mean it happened a lot. Um. There was a lot 3951 03:46:40,320 --> 03:46:42,720 Speaker 1: of Monday night quarterbacking that would happen, especially with the 3952 03:46:42,800 --> 03:46:46,640 Speaker 1: advent of like cameras and things becoming more popular. Uh. 3953 03:46:47,200 --> 03:46:49,360 Speaker 1: I love my body camera. That was my little best friend. 3954 03:46:49,520 --> 03:46:52,120 Speaker 1: But we would go you know, you go back and 3955 03:46:52,160 --> 03:46:55,320 Speaker 1: you'd watch videos of incidents and things, and if somebody 3956 03:46:55,520 --> 03:46:58,520 Speaker 1: wasn't like engaging fast enough, they would get roasted hard 3957 03:46:58,640 --> 03:47:01,400 Speaker 1: like haze and you know, made fun of and mocked it. 3958 03:47:01,520 --> 03:47:05,120 Speaker 1: And when you were in this, you know, we're a 3959 03:47:05,240 --> 03:47:08,160 Speaker 1: family mindset, and you're you know, we're we got each 3960 03:47:08,160 --> 03:47:09,920 Speaker 1: other's backs and we only understand each other. And then 3961 03:47:09,959 --> 03:47:12,760 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're on the outside because you 3962 03:47:13,040 --> 03:47:17,160 Speaker 1: dared to have even a remotely moderate to liberal position 3963 03:47:17,240 --> 03:47:20,200 Speaker 1: on anything, or you didn't jump in on the you know, 3964 03:47:20,320 --> 03:47:23,400 Speaker 1: the the ass beating on something you fast enough, they 3965 03:47:23,520 --> 03:47:26,560 Speaker 1: turn on you fast. Like. The only thing I could 3966 03:47:26,640 --> 03:47:30,560 Speaker 1: compare it to is like you know every eighties and 3967 03:47:30,879 --> 03:47:33,800 Speaker 1: like nineties military movie or or you know Nerds movie 3968 03:47:33,840 --> 03:47:35,520 Speaker 1: where people just hate the ship out of each other, 3969 03:47:35,600 --> 03:47:39,400 Speaker 1: and it's that that dude brow everyone's got a our 3970 03:47:39,520 --> 03:47:45,400 Speaker 1: wire sun tattoo on their bicep, just rampant everywhere. I mean, 3971 03:47:45,480 --> 03:47:47,440 Speaker 1: it permeated the whole place. That drove me that that 3972 03:47:47,560 --> 03:47:48,840 Speaker 1: was one of the things that really drove me next, 3973 03:47:48,840 --> 03:47:52,000 Speaker 1: because I've never been that kind of guy. I've always 3974 03:47:52,040 --> 03:47:56,440 Speaker 1: been a a more of a a de escalation person 3975 03:47:56,800 --> 03:47:59,039 Speaker 1: and a book reader. And then I think it helps 3976 03:47:59,120 --> 03:48:01,959 Speaker 1: explain a lot why you see some of these videos 3977 03:48:02,000 --> 03:48:03,560 Speaker 1: where it's just like why did they go to zero 3978 03:48:03,640 --> 03:48:05,280 Speaker 1: to ten from zero to tend so fast with well, 3979 03:48:05,280 --> 03:48:07,480 Speaker 1: because somebody's gonna make fun of them and call them 3980 03:48:07,560 --> 03:48:10,640 Speaker 1: names if they don't go hard enough, fast enough on 3981 03:48:10,760 --> 03:48:13,200 Speaker 1: somebody when they do certain things like and yeah, the 3982 03:48:13,320 --> 03:48:15,920 Speaker 1: zero to a hundred thing also ties into that whole, 3983 03:48:16,160 --> 03:48:20,120 Speaker 1: that whole hyper vigilance thing, that always being um a 3984 03:48:20,200 --> 03:48:24,000 Speaker 1: compressed spring, and then it ties back into that warrior 3985 03:48:24,120 --> 03:48:26,640 Speaker 1: mindset of like they tell you flat out like if 3986 03:48:26,640 --> 03:48:29,760 Speaker 1: anyone ever attacks you, they're trying to kill you. It's 3987 03:48:29,840 --> 03:48:31,800 Speaker 1: it's there's there's no offens or, but you need to 3988 03:48:31,840 --> 03:48:33,480 Speaker 1: act like they're trying to kill you, because it goes 3989 03:48:33,520 --> 03:48:35,520 Speaker 1: back to the whole I'm going home at the end 3990 03:48:35,560 --> 03:48:38,920 Speaker 1: of the shift kind of thing. And once once that's 3991 03:48:39,000 --> 03:48:42,039 Speaker 1: ingrained itself into like your muscle memory, and that becomes 3992 03:48:42,120 --> 03:48:45,360 Speaker 1: the reflex, that becomes the thought that passes in front 3993 03:48:45,400 --> 03:48:49,520 Speaker 1: of your mind when a critical incident happens, then that's 3994 03:48:49,560 --> 03:48:51,200 Speaker 1: how you're gonna act, and you're gonna do and you're 3995 03:48:51,200 --> 03:48:52,920 Speaker 1: gonna go from zero to a hundred because you're going 3996 03:48:52,959 --> 03:48:56,440 Speaker 1: to assume that any little furtive movement movement which god, 3997 03:48:56,480 --> 03:49:00,960 Speaker 1: there's that language, furtive movement, um, any little movement that 3998 03:49:01,040 --> 03:49:03,280 Speaker 1: someone makes, like that's that's a green light. That's an 3999 03:49:03,320 --> 03:49:07,080 Speaker 1: excuse that I can end whatever interaction I'm having with 4000 03:49:07,160 --> 03:49:11,400 Speaker 1: this person with violence because they flinched enough where I think, Okay, 4001 03:49:11,440 --> 03:49:16,880 Speaker 1: I got this. Yeah Jesus. Now. One of the next 4002 03:49:16,960 --> 03:49:19,760 Speaker 1: ones you have here is talking about recruitment, which obviously 4003 03:49:19,840 --> 03:49:22,120 Speaker 1: coult STU, but also like it's a job and jobs 4004 03:49:22,160 --> 03:49:26,080 Speaker 1: do this constantly recruiting. I'm kind of wondering because you've 4005 03:49:26,120 --> 03:49:28,800 Speaker 1: you've listed here things like Explorer programs, which are like 4006 03:49:28,960 --> 03:49:31,080 Speaker 1: r OTC or the Boy Scouts kind of these different 4007 03:49:31,760 --> 03:49:34,120 Speaker 1: one of which Kyle Rittenhouse did like ways in which 4008 03:49:34,200 --> 03:49:36,960 Speaker 1: kind of people get onboarded. I'm wondering sort of what 4009 03:49:37,560 --> 03:49:40,480 Speaker 1: how you see how you see police recruitment as kind 4010 03:49:40,560 --> 03:49:43,840 Speaker 1: of different in a fundamentally cult your way. Then you know, 4011 03:49:44,200 --> 03:49:46,680 Speaker 1: every job has to bring in new people, right like, yeah, 4012 03:49:47,920 --> 03:49:50,760 Speaker 1: it's it's it didn't used to be this way. But 4013 03:49:50,840 --> 03:49:53,560 Speaker 1: I think in the in the two thousand's, especially when numbers, 4014 03:49:53,600 --> 03:49:56,840 Speaker 1: staffing numbers really started to drop because it's I don't 4015 03:49:56,840 --> 03:49:58,520 Speaker 1: know if they've just realized it wasn't worth it or 4016 03:49:58,520 --> 03:50:01,240 Speaker 1: they found somewhere better to get paid. But employment's gone 4017 03:50:01,240 --> 03:50:04,200 Speaker 1: down for law enforcement, and so recruitment goes up in response. 4018 03:50:04,920 --> 03:50:08,200 Speaker 1: But now they have a more active role in most 4019 03:50:08,200 --> 03:50:11,120 Speaker 1: places where it's almost on part of the military. They'll 4020 03:50:11,200 --> 03:50:15,080 Speaker 1: go to job fairs, they go to high school career days. Um, 4021 03:50:15,680 --> 03:50:17,480 Speaker 1: they didn't used to do that stuff, and when they do, 4022 03:50:17,760 --> 03:50:20,960 Speaker 1: they'll they'll find someone to like pull stuff out of 4023 03:50:21,000 --> 03:50:25,880 Speaker 1: the pulp cultures that geist what we know what cool? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 4024 03:50:27,080 --> 03:50:30,000 Speaker 1: what can we what can we cash in on to 4025 03:50:30,120 --> 03:50:32,880 Speaker 1: try and draw these kids in, because just like the military, 4026 03:50:33,040 --> 03:50:38,160 Speaker 1: cops are looking to pull in disenfranchised kids who probably 4027 03:50:38,200 --> 03:50:40,680 Speaker 1: aren't going to go to college, don't think it's an option. 4028 03:50:41,600 --> 03:50:44,760 Speaker 1: And here's this job. All you need is a high 4029 03:50:44,800 --> 03:50:47,960 Speaker 1: school diploma. Here's the health insurance. Here's the retirement package, 4030 03:50:48,120 --> 03:50:50,600 Speaker 1: which is trash. But you're seventeen. You don't know that, 4031 03:50:50,720 --> 03:50:52,520 Speaker 1: you don't know how to read all this. But it 4032 03:50:52,600 --> 03:51:00,520 Speaker 1: looks real coal. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, they or stuff. 4033 03:51:00,600 --> 03:51:02,440 Speaker 1: I mean you're familiar with that. So but yeah, they 4034 03:51:02,480 --> 03:51:04,400 Speaker 1: get little kids to go out and you know, the 4035 03:51:04,480 --> 03:51:06,880 Speaker 1: little baby cops, and it's I mean, it's it's one 4036 03:51:06,920 --> 03:51:08,640 Speaker 1: of those things, like some of this is so much 4037 03:51:08,720 --> 03:51:13,040 Speaker 1: deeper than even the the individual departments or any choice 4038 03:51:13,120 --> 03:51:15,120 Speaker 1: made by the police, because like as a kid, some 4039 03:51:15,200 --> 03:51:17,040 Speaker 1: of the first toys I had were cop toys, right, 4040 03:51:17,120 --> 03:51:20,160 Speaker 1: like everything every boy I think, like, yes, some of 4041 03:51:20,240 --> 03:51:22,040 Speaker 1: the first what you're gonna get badge, a gun, You're 4042 03:51:22,080 --> 03:51:24,400 Speaker 1: gonna play detective, You're gonna be watching cops shows, You're 4043 03:51:24,440 --> 03:51:27,000 Speaker 1: gonna be watching movies where cops are the and that's 4044 03:51:27,520 --> 03:51:31,720 Speaker 1: I mean that that's a bigger subject than today. But like, yeah, no, 4045 03:51:31,960 --> 03:51:34,360 Speaker 1: that is, like what the one of the most prevalent 4046 03:51:34,640 --> 03:51:38,960 Speaker 1: forms of media that's instilled in young uh boys? I 4047 03:51:39,000 --> 03:51:41,520 Speaker 1: guess yeah. You know what else is instilled in young 4048 03:51:41,600 --> 03:51:47,480 Speaker 1: boys the love of capitalism and products and specifically products 4049 03:51:47,520 --> 03:51:50,680 Speaker 1: and services. Find a child and whisper the names of 4050 03:51:50,760 --> 03:51:54,640 Speaker 1: our sponsor into their ears, preferably a child that's yours. 4051 03:51:54,880 --> 03:51:57,920 Speaker 1: Hopefully know any child, any child throw something so their 4052 03:51:57,960 --> 03:52:02,040 Speaker 1: parents look away, and then lean down and whisper better. 4053 03:52:03,360 --> 03:52:06,120 Speaker 1: You only counts if you get caught. We're back, um. 4054 03:52:06,320 --> 03:52:09,800 Speaker 1: And your next point was the group is preoccupied with 4055 03:52:09,920 --> 03:52:14,160 Speaker 1: making money, which is a huge thing for cults. Um, 4056 03:52:14,600 --> 03:52:16,880 Speaker 1: not all of them. There are some, like you know, 4057 03:52:17,000 --> 03:52:19,120 Speaker 1: there there are some cults that were shall we say 4058 03:52:19,200 --> 03:52:24,720 Speaker 1: pure um, but they're nearly We're like, hey man Manson, 4059 03:52:25,480 --> 03:52:29,040 Speaker 1: just it was all about the music and the Heaven's 4060 03:52:29,040 --> 03:52:33,880 Speaker 1: Gate was a pure cult. Yeah, yeah, Heaven's Gate. It 4061 03:52:34,080 --> 03:52:40,320 Speaker 1: certainly wasn't just the money for Heaven's But yes, cops, 4062 03:52:40,520 --> 03:52:44,080 Speaker 1: cops have civil acids forfeiture, which they just took a 4063 03:52:44,160 --> 03:52:47,120 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars from someone in Dallas. Yeah, and the 4064 03:52:47,200 --> 03:52:49,960 Speaker 1: person did not get charged with anything, um, which is 4065 03:52:50,040 --> 03:52:54,920 Speaker 1: usually the case. Yeah, but but I mean, yeah, like 4066 03:52:55,560 --> 03:52:57,440 Speaker 1: you have written here that like the main the main 4067 03:52:57,560 --> 03:52:59,920 Speaker 1: way is just increasing their budget as much as possible, 4068 03:53:00,200 --> 03:53:02,400 Speaker 1: which you have. Most police departments right now have the 4069 03:53:02,400 --> 03:53:06,880 Speaker 1: biggest budget they've ever had. UM specifically in like main 4070 03:53:07,000 --> 03:53:11,120 Speaker 1: cities we have, they're they're the most funded department, UM 4071 03:53:11,400 --> 03:53:13,600 Speaker 1: in in for the whole city that there's there's this 4072 03:53:13,680 --> 03:53:15,760 Speaker 1: there's this great gag in the opening episode of a 4073 03:53:15,800 --> 03:53:20,760 Speaker 1: show called Ugly Americans that's about trying to rere financialize 4074 03:53:20,800 --> 03:53:23,720 Speaker 1: the city's budget. And they have like like a social 4075 03:53:23,760 --> 03:53:26,520 Speaker 1: spending and cop budget and they take like all of 4076 03:53:26,600 --> 03:53:28,680 Speaker 1: social spending and move it over and leave this one 4077 03:53:28,760 --> 03:53:30,840 Speaker 1: tiny sliver and they're like, oh there, that's better. That 4078 03:53:30,840 --> 03:53:34,120 Speaker 1: will solve all the problems. Um. It's it is a 4079 03:53:34,240 --> 03:53:37,000 Speaker 1: better sketch than what I explaining it just like this 4080 03:53:37,240 --> 03:53:39,840 Speaker 1: sounds not funny, but the sketch is actually pretty good. 4081 03:53:41,480 --> 03:53:43,720 Speaker 1: But yes, and and it is, and it is relatively 4082 03:53:43,760 --> 03:53:45,800 Speaker 1: accurate in terms of just moving all the funding from 4083 03:53:45,840 --> 03:53:51,120 Speaker 1: social programs over into law enforcement. Yeah. So there's uh there, 4084 03:53:51,200 --> 03:53:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, there's everyone gets their financing different ways. There's county, 4085 03:53:54,080 --> 03:53:56,640 Speaker 1: there's stayed there's their city. But a common thing that 4086 03:53:56,680 --> 03:54:00,440 Speaker 1: would happen was, uh, law enforcement agencies woul try to 4087 03:54:02,040 --> 03:54:06,120 Speaker 1: take anything that they could under the umbrella of law enforcement. 4088 03:54:06,200 --> 03:54:08,120 Speaker 1: So if it was like, hey, we want to have more, 4089 03:54:08,520 --> 03:54:11,360 Speaker 1: you know, security equipment at the high school, and then 4090 03:54:11,440 --> 03:54:12,640 Speaker 1: the cops will be like, no, no, no, no, no, 4091 03:54:13,040 --> 03:54:16,440 Speaker 1: give us that money. We'll give you another another officer 4092 03:54:16,560 --> 03:54:19,360 Speaker 1: on campus. Or they want to hire something for the part, 4093 03:54:19,400 --> 03:54:21,240 Speaker 1: you know, and we want to install lights the city 4094 03:54:21,320 --> 03:54:23,000 Speaker 1: park to increase security. No no, no, no, no no no, 4095 03:54:23,120 --> 03:54:25,000 Speaker 1: you just give us that money. We'll make sure our 4096 03:54:25,040 --> 03:54:30,280 Speaker 1: guys patrol it more. Mm hmm. So they actively try 4097 03:54:30,360 --> 03:54:34,200 Speaker 1: to just like coach money from everybody else. Yeah. I mean, 4098 03:54:34,240 --> 03:54:35,840 Speaker 1: and you you can see this in a lot of 4099 03:54:35,880 --> 03:54:38,560 Speaker 1: towns where like the number one use of public funds 4100 03:54:38,680 --> 03:54:42,120 Speaker 1: is the police. I mean, it's it's all over the 4101 03:54:42,200 --> 03:54:46,560 Speaker 1: country at this point. Um, yeah, that makes sense. Uh. 4102 03:54:47,000 --> 03:54:50,520 Speaker 1: So members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time 4103 03:54:50,560 --> 03:54:54,360 Speaker 1: to the group and group related activities. Um. Yeah, because 4104 03:54:54,360 --> 03:54:56,240 Speaker 1: you have written here four years with no days off, 4105 03:54:56,320 --> 03:54:58,520 Speaker 1: but scored a satisfactor, I was told to put in 4106 03:54:58,600 --> 03:55:02,360 Speaker 1: more time outside of work. Yeah, So, like I said, 4107 03:55:02,400 --> 03:55:04,840 Speaker 1: our emails were always sounds so much like MLM ship 4108 03:55:05,600 --> 03:55:08,040 Speaker 1: it is. It is they they every time you're going 4109 03:55:08,080 --> 03:55:10,160 Speaker 1: for an email, they negg you, like, no matter what 4110 03:55:10,440 --> 03:55:14,560 Speaker 1: are Our scoring system was one to ten. Um, nobody 4111 03:55:14,640 --> 03:55:17,600 Speaker 1: ever got higher than a six. Maybe I think I 4112 03:55:17,640 --> 03:55:20,000 Speaker 1: saw like one or two sevens in my entire time there. 4113 03:55:20,640 --> 03:55:23,200 Speaker 1: And when I became a supervisor, I asked the brass 4114 03:55:23,280 --> 03:55:24,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, I want to give this guy this 4115 03:55:24,920 --> 03:55:28,160 Speaker 1: this upper grade of like an eight or nine, and 4116 03:55:28,240 --> 03:55:30,000 Speaker 1: he told me flat, because no, we don't do that. Like, 4117 03:55:30,080 --> 03:55:31,680 Speaker 1: no one's allowed to get higher than a seven. And 4118 03:55:31,760 --> 03:55:33,240 Speaker 1: if you want a seven, you're gonna have to like 4119 03:55:33,960 --> 03:55:36,680 Speaker 1: write a novel about how great this person is to 4120 03:55:36,800 --> 03:55:40,760 Speaker 1: get them this rating. Um, it was just yeah, it was. 4121 03:55:40,920 --> 03:55:43,480 Speaker 1: It was consistently just pinning you down. The four years 4122 03:55:43,520 --> 03:55:46,080 Speaker 1: no dated off. So yeah, I did h four years 4123 03:55:46,120 --> 03:55:48,960 Speaker 1: straight without calling in sick once, like I took vacations. 4124 03:55:49,120 --> 03:55:52,960 Speaker 1: But um, when I went in from my email and 4125 03:55:53,040 --> 03:55:55,120 Speaker 1: he slides me a thing that says it says attendance 4126 03:55:55,200 --> 03:55:57,280 Speaker 1: satisfactory and I was like, what are you talking about. 4127 03:55:57,280 --> 03:55:59,240 Speaker 1: I was like, I haven't taken a day a sick 4128 03:55:59,320 --> 03:56:01,320 Speaker 1: day and four you know what? I have three kids. 4129 03:56:01,400 --> 03:56:04,679 Speaker 1: How do you think I managed that? Like, I've sacrificed 4130 03:56:05,680 --> 03:56:09,240 Speaker 1: to be here that much. And his response was, well, like, yeah, 4131 03:56:09,240 --> 03:56:11,560 Speaker 1: but I never see you at barbecues, I never see 4132 03:56:11,600 --> 03:56:13,680 Speaker 1: you at the union meetings. I never see you at 4133 03:56:13,720 --> 03:56:18,440 Speaker 1: the fundraisers for the sheriff's reelection, even though it's blatantly 4134 03:56:18,480 --> 03:56:21,800 Speaker 1: against policy and illegal to do. And I told him 4135 03:56:21,800 --> 03:56:23,240 Speaker 1: that in his response was, what are you gonna do? 4136 03:56:23,280 --> 03:56:27,960 Speaker 1: Tell on me? Are you're gonna tell Jesus? Yeah? That 4137 03:56:28,040 --> 03:56:30,120 Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, yeah, I mean who are you going 4138 03:56:30,200 --> 03:56:33,840 Speaker 1: to tell that? Who are you to? Yeah? And it is. 4139 03:56:34,000 --> 03:56:38,080 Speaker 1: It's also just like this. It isolates you from other people. 4140 03:56:38,160 --> 03:56:40,560 Speaker 1: It stops you from knowing folks that aren't cops. And 4141 03:56:40,680 --> 03:56:43,440 Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's a lot like what your up line 4142 03:56:43,480 --> 03:56:46,200 Speaker 1: is gonna tell you if you're selling mary kay that 4143 03:56:46,400 --> 03:56:48,200 Speaker 1: that that that ties into the that ties into the 4144 03:56:48,240 --> 03:56:51,800 Speaker 1: next point. Members are encouraged or required to live and 4145 03:56:52,000 --> 03:56:54,640 Speaker 1: or socialize only with other group of members. Um. And 4146 03:56:54,760 --> 03:56:57,120 Speaker 1: you say, this is like part of the hyper vigilance, isolate, 4147 03:56:57,160 --> 03:56:59,440 Speaker 1: isolation cycle. But I also see this in terms of 4148 03:56:59,560 --> 03:57:03,320 Speaker 1: like something I get into for fun, is I join 4149 03:57:03,480 --> 03:57:08,400 Speaker 1: like a wife of cops? Um? Facebook groups just because 4150 03:57:08,440 --> 03:57:11,880 Speaker 1: it's fast just to have all of just to have 4151 03:57:12,000 --> 03:57:14,640 Speaker 1: all of these like cops spouses in a Facebook group 4152 03:57:14,680 --> 03:57:17,080 Speaker 1: and it's super yeah, Like it's it's a really interesting 4153 03:57:17,160 --> 03:57:20,200 Speaker 1: like culture of like just associating with other people on 4154 03:57:20,240 --> 03:57:23,160 Speaker 1: the job. You know, there's like cop barbecues like you 4155 03:57:23,240 --> 03:57:24,880 Speaker 1: mentioned and all this kind of stuff where it's like 4156 03:57:25,440 --> 03:57:27,880 Speaker 1: we're the only ones that can understand you. So we're 4157 03:57:27,880 --> 03:57:31,400 Speaker 1: gonna build like this like you know, force field around 4158 03:57:31,480 --> 03:57:33,520 Speaker 1: all of us and we can be together as a 4159 03:57:33,600 --> 03:57:36,920 Speaker 1: family and keep out everyone else because we're the ones 4160 03:57:37,480 --> 03:57:41,960 Speaker 1: that really know what's up. Um. Yeah, it seems uh, 4161 03:57:42,960 --> 03:57:45,640 Speaker 1: I mean for some people who are really into it, 4162 03:57:46,360 --> 03:57:50,240 Speaker 1: I guess that is you know, that's how humans socialize 4163 03:57:50,280 --> 03:57:51,640 Speaker 1: in some ways. So like you know, for people who 4164 03:57:51,680 --> 03:57:54,440 Speaker 1: think being cops are good and quote unquote enjoy it, 4165 03:57:54,760 --> 03:57:56,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure they have a decent time hanging out with 4166 03:57:56,960 --> 03:58:00,320 Speaker 1: their cop buddies, right, Um. And I'm sure are the 4167 03:58:01,640 --> 03:58:04,280 Speaker 1: cops spouse Facebook groups, I'm sure they have a good 4168 03:58:04,360 --> 03:58:08,560 Speaker 1: time laughing about whatever viral video there is of someone 4169 03:58:08,880 --> 03:58:10,760 Speaker 1: using too much force you know who who knows what? 4170 03:58:10,960 --> 03:58:13,640 Speaker 1: Like how how they actually think about those types of 4171 03:58:13,800 --> 03:58:17,280 Speaker 1: very isolated environments because you know, it's it's about fend 4172 03:58:17,440 --> 03:58:19,640 Speaker 1: find you know, it's it's almost like it's it's extending 4173 03:58:19,680 --> 03:58:22,440 Speaker 1: out into like fandom rules where you're associating with other 4174 03:58:22,520 --> 03:58:25,720 Speaker 1: people the same way fandoms work, which is very just 4175 03:58:25,960 --> 03:58:31,840 Speaker 1: very similar to to how cults work. Um so, yeah, yeah, 4176 03:58:31,880 --> 03:58:35,920 Speaker 1: it's an armed, militant fandom. And your last point here, 4177 03:58:36,960 --> 03:58:39,240 Speaker 1: the most loyal members, the true believers, feel there can 4178 03:58:39,280 --> 03:58:41,520 Speaker 1: be no life outside the context of the group. They 4179 03:58:41,560 --> 03:58:43,440 Speaker 1: believe there is no other way to be, and often 4180 03:58:43,480 --> 03:58:45,880 Speaker 1: fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave or 4181 03:58:45,920 --> 03:58:51,080 Speaker 1: even consider leaving the group. Yeah, so I put in 4182 03:58:51,200 --> 03:58:55,920 Speaker 1: the note of just self expantiory. But yeah, it's me 4183 03:58:57,720 --> 03:59:02,160 Speaker 1: quitting was we eared. I knew I needed to do it, 4184 03:59:03,520 --> 03:59:06,720 Speaker 1: but I I had a massive existential crisis of identity 4185 03:59:07,080 --> 03:59:11,320 Speaker 1: and of of logistical things, but a lot of it 4186 03:59:11,440 --> 03:59:13,160 Speaker 1: was it was tied to my identity, and it was 4187 03:59:13,360 --> 03:59:17,160 Speaker 1: it was letting go of something that was like a 4188 03:59:17,360 --> 03:59:23,760 Speaker 1: core pillar of my personality and it really freaked me out. 4189 03:59:23,760 --> 03:59:28,120 Speaker 1: And I think that if I was more inside the group, 4190 03:59:28,200 --> 03:59:29,440 Speaker 1: and I was more like one of the guys, a 4191 03:59:29,520 --> 03:59:31,520 Speaker 1: golden boy or something like, I probably would have never 4192 03:59:31,680 --> 03:59:34,440 Speaker 1: left if I was. If I was getting that constant 4193 03:59:34,480 --> 03:59:37,720 Speaker 1: reinforcement of the good boy feelings, I don't think I 4194 03:59:37,720 --> 03:59:43,280 Speaker 1: would have quit. Um. But after I did quit, that 4195 03:59:43,480 --> 03:59:47,040 Speaker 1: actually kicked off a cascade of people around my same 4196 03:59:47,120 --> 03:59:50,360 Speaker 1: age and within my same seniority level in looking at 4197 03:59:50,400 --> 03:59:52,360 Speaker 1: their job and looking at what it was doing to 4198 03:59:52,480 --> 03:59:56,520 Speaker 1: them psychologically and physically and with their families, and thinking 4199 03:59:56,560 --> 03:59:59,320 Speaker 1: to themselves, Oh, I can leave that. That is how 4200 03:59:59,440 --> 04:00:02,360 Speaker 1: called how that is how leaving cults work. Yeah. Yeah. 4201 04:00:02,560 --> 04:00:04,680 Speaker 1: And so once I left, a bunch of other guys 4202 04:00:04,760 --> 04:00:06,680 Speaker 1: were like, oh, I don't have to do this until 4203 04:00:06,720 --> 04:00:10,080 Speaker 1: I'm fifty five. I can I can go start another 4204 04:00:10,120 --> 04:00:12,760 Speaker 1: career somewhere else. I can go start another retirement plan 4205 04:00:12,840 --> 04:00:18,440 Speaker 1: at a different place. And I just it felt great 4206 04:00:18,480 --> 04:00:21,520 Speaker 1: to see other people tear away and do that. But 4207 04:00:21,600 --> 04:00:23,120 Speaker 1: at the same time, I know for some ofe that 4208 04:00:23,200 --> 04:00:27,440 Speaker 1: it hurt mhm really bad to leave that behind, because 4209 04:00:27,480 --> 04:00:31,240 Speaker 1: once you're once you are out. Um, you are kind 4210 04:00:31,280 --> 04:00:34,360 Speaker 1: of out. Even if you leave amicably, like hey, I 4211 04:00:34,440 --> 04:00:36,000 Speaker 1: just want to go do something else with my life, 4212 04:00:37,040 --> 04:00:39,840 Speaker 1: you're no longer in those people's minds anymore, because you're 4213 04:00:39,880 --> 04:00:41,480 Speaker 1: not part of the team. You're not in the club, 4214 04:00:41,600 --> 04:00:44,000 Speaker 1: you're not in the family anymore. You're that guy that 4215 04:00:44,160 --> 04:00:49,440 Speaker 1: used to be here. And I guess kind of at 4216 04:00:49,480 --> 04:00:52,440 Speaker 1: the conclusion of this and this is you know, when 4217 04:00:52,480 --> 04:00:53,840 Speaker 1: you when the question is like, how do you de 4218 04:00:54,000 --> 04:00:56,680 Speaker 1: radicalize get people out of colts? How do you like, 4219 04:00:57,200 --> 04:00:59,000 Speaker 1: no one has a good answer to that. So I 4220 04:00:59,040 --> 04:01:01,040 Speaker 1: don't think we should expect you to suddenly have like 4221 04:01:01,160 --> 04:01:04,920 Speaker 1: here's how to here's how to convince everybody to stop 4222 04:01:05,000 --> 04:01:07,160 Speaker 1: doing this, because we can't do that for fucking Q 4223 04:01:07,360 --> 04:01:10,880 Speaker 1: and on, like de radicalization of the people who say 4224 04:01:10,880 --> 04:01:13,320 Speaker 1: they're involved in it are fucking drifting like it's it's 4225 04:01:13,440 --> 04:01:16,560 Speaker 1: it's a big mess of a of a fucking field 4226 04:01:16,640 --> 04:01:18,000 Speaker 1: in the first place. But I am wondering, do you 4227 04:01:18,120 --> 04:01:20,720 Speaker 1: have some insights into like, yeah, how then do we 4228 04:01:20,800 --> 04:01:25,120 Speaker 1: de radicalize these people? Uh? Like I don't think there 4229 04:01:25,280 --> 04:01:27,680 Speaker 1: is Like I don't think there is a cookie cutter 4230 04:01:27,680 --> 04:01:30,480 Speaker 1: answer for like pulling people out. Um, you know, we 4231 04:01:30,560 --> 04:01:32,720 Speaker 1: can't bag them in a white vand and take them 4232 04:01:32,760 --> 04:01:36,560 Speaker 1: to a hotel. Uh. The only thing I can think 4233 04:01:36,560 --> 04:01:39,720 Speaker 1: of that would actually change the culture is a huge 4234 04:01:39,800 --> 04:01:45,000 Speaker 1: shift in our national culture around like mental health and 4235 04:01:45,120 --> 04:01:49,920 Speaker 1: toxic masculinity and you know, wrapping your identity into into 4236 04:01:50,000 --> 04:01:51,800 Speaker 1: your job. Because it's not just cops that do this. 4237 04:01:51,880 --> 04:01:54,840 Speaker 1: There's it's it's it's it's like that is that is 4238 04:01:54,920 --> 04:01:58,680 Speaker 1: America now? Is that is like hustle culture. That is 4239 04:01:58,720 --> 04:02:02,480 Speaker 1: what the idea of a rear is. My name is 4240 04:02:02,880 --> 04:02:06,520 Speaker 1: blank and I am a blank. Like career. Career comes 4241 04:02:06,560 --> 04:02:09,560 Speaker 1: from the word that means like careening, like you are 4242 04:02:09,680 --> 04:02:13,160 Speaker 1: going full force into this thing that is that is 4243 04:02:13,240 --> 04:02:15,960 Speaker 1: what you are doing now. That is your existence, is 4244 04:02:16,080 --> 04:02:20,160 Speaker 1: your career. You're going at it um. That is that 4245 04:02:20,320 --> 04:02:23,600 Speaker 1: is what this whole country is built on. Uh So 4246 04:02:24,360 --> 04:02:26,480 Speaker 1: getting out of that for a lot of people, for 4247 04:02:26,560 --> 04:02:30,200 Speaker 1: just regular jobs, it's difficult. Now adding on the idea 4248 04:02:30,320 --> 04:02:33,920 Speaker 1: that you are the thing that holds society together, that 4249 04:02:34,120 --> 04:02:37,160 Speaker 1: is that that has a whole other level of complexity, 4250 04:02:37,280 --> 04:02:41,520 Speaker 1: like psychologically for the person inside it um because I'm sure, 4251 04:02:41,640 --> 04:02:44,120 Speaker 1: like telemarketers, if you can get really into it and 4252 04:02:44,240 --> 04:02:46,600 Speaker 1: make money, sure that can be a career. But you know, 4253 04:02:46,800 --> 04:02:50,160 Speaker 1: you're not holding society together, and like that's not that's 4254 04:02:50,160 --> 04:02:53,000 Speaker 1: not that's not a delusion that you have and nobody 4255 04:02:53,160 --> 04:03:01,200 Speaker 1: outside shares has There's there there is, there is no 4256 04:03:01,360 --> 04:03:05,520 Speaker 1: thin telemarketing line of supporting you. So it is it 4257 04:03:05,720 --> 04:03:08,680 Speaker 1: is different for like police specifically, even more so than 4258 04:03:08,720 --> 04:03:11,400 Speaker 1: like firefighters or like E. M. T. S. UM. This 4259 04:03:11,920 --> 04:03:15,440 Speaker 1: particular fandom that's developed around police and and and like 4260 04:03:15,600 --> 04:03:20,160 Speaker 1: the the incredible self importance that they is that is 4261 04:03:20,200 --> 04:03:24,200 Speaker 1: cultivated um to. Yeah, like the idea of I'm doing 4262 04:03:24,280 --> 04:03:29,080 Speaker 1: this to maintain reality is like a very like big 4263 04:03:29,200 --> 04:03:31,400 Speaker 1: thing to tell yourself and get getting out of that 4264 04:03:31,520 --> 04:03:36,920 Speaker 1: seems uh challenging. Yeah, it really is. It's like it's 4265 04:03:36,920 --> 04:03:39,280 Speaker 1: almost it's almost worse than most like churches in a 4266 04:03:39,360 --> 04:03:43,560 Speaker 1: sense because in this version it's so it's so materialized. 4267 04:03:43,760 --> 04:03:46,040 Speaker 1: It's it's it is, Yeah, it's it's it's right in 4268 04:03:46,080 --> 04:03:47,200 Speaker 1: front of you. I can reach out and touch it 4269 04:03:47,280 --> 04:03:49,440 Speaker 1: because I'm part of society. But if I'm not here 4270 04:03:49,560 --> 04:03:52,880 Speaker 1: and we're not here, you know, anarchy the bad guy 4271 04:03:53,000 --> 04:03:55,080 Speaker 1: that the way people think the word means, you know, 4272 04:03:55,200 --> 04:03:58,200 Speaker 1: everything's gonna catch fire. And the only reason people are 4273 04:03:58,240 --> 04:03:59,920 Speaker 1: good to each other is because the law makes them 4274 04:04:00,040 --> 04:04:01,920 Speaker 1: me that way and all that kind of toxic bs. 4275 04:04:03,240 --> 04:04:05,400 Speaker 1: So the only thing I can think of to be 4276 04:04:05,480 --> 04:04:08,880 Speaker 1: like to help de radicalize people is it's almost like 4277 04:04:09,240 --> 04:04:11,880 Speaker 1: treating someone in your family that listens to too much 4278 04:04:11,920 --> 04:04:14,920 Speaker 1: Q and on is to you know, if you know 4279 04:04:15,040 --> 04:04:16,880 Speaker 1: a cop or you have a friend that used to 4280 04:04:16,880 --> 04:04:18,920 Speaker 1: be a cop, and he ever like reaches out to you, 4281 04:04:20,360 --> 04:04:23,000 Speaker 1: maybe with like kid gloves, kind of be like, hey, 4282 04:04:24,200 --> 04:04:28,800 Speaker 1: how you doing just small things because that could maybe 4283 04:04:29,080 --> 04:04:31,840 Speaker 1: lead to him putting them putting something on their shelf. 4284 04:04:31,960 --> 04:04:33,680 Speaker 1: Just like when people get out of religions and things, 4285 04:04:34,360 --> 04:04:36,960 Speaker 1: they'll often reach out to people and be like, hey, 4286 04:04:37,800 --> 04:04:42,720 Speaker 1: this is such a fucking it kind of means something 4287 04:04:42,760 --> 04:04:44,800 Speaker 1: if he's going outside of the group, and so yeah, 4288 04:04:44,920 --> 04:04:48,880 Speaker 1: maybe recognize that, Like, you have an opportunity. Yeah, if 4289 04:04:48,960 --> 04:04:50,360 Speaker 1: if a cop reaches out to you, it's just like 4290 04:04:50,440 --> 04:04:52,560 Speaker 1: someone in a religious institution. They're reaching out to you 4291 04:04:52,680 --> 04:04:56,320 Speaker 1: because they feel safe talking to you because you're not 4292 04:04:56,320 --> 04:04:58,320 Speaker 1: going to turn them in. You it's not gonna have 4293 04:04:58,400 --> 04:05:05,480 Speaker 1: any h immediate impact on their life right now. Yeah 4294 04:05:05,560 --> 04:05:10,120 Speaker 1: that makes sense? Um, all right, well, Alexander, anything else 4295 04:05:10,160 --> 04:05:13,800 Speaker 1: you wanted to get into. I mean I could talk 4296 04:05:13,800 --> 04:05:15,760 Speaker 1: about this kind of stuff for days and days and 4297 04:05:15,840 --> 04:05:18,800 Speaker 1: hours and hours, the whole hyper vigilance cycle. And like 4298 04:05:18,920 --> 04:05:20,560 Speaker 1: I said, I've read a bunch of books on it. 4299 04:05:20,640 --> 04:05:24,120 Speaker 1: I really tried to get training on just the hyper 4300 04:05:24,200 --> 04:05:26,600 Speaker 1: vigilance cycle. Like, well, if you ask most cops about 4301 04:05:26,680 --> 04:05:28,360 Speaker 1: hyper vigilance, they would just look at you and be like, 4302 04:05:28,360 --> 04:05:30,080 Speaker 1: I don't even know what that means what you're talking about, 4303 04:05:30,840 --> 04:05:32,360 Speaker 1: which is why I used to I used to give 4304 04:05:32,440 --> 04:05:36,040 Speaker 1: this book the Emotional Survival Bout for law enforcement. I would. 4305 04:05:36,120 --> 04:05:38,840 Speaker 1: I gave it to new hires, and some of those 4306 04:05:38,880 --> 04:05:42,000 Speaker 1: new hires didn't come back, and I'm fine with that. 4307 04:05:42,400 --> 04:05:47,000 Speaker 1: Yeah that's good. Yeah, some of them looked at it 4308 04:05:47,000 --> 04:05:48,960 Speaker 1: and we're like, no, I'm not signing up for this 4309 04:05:49,120 --> 04:05:51,360 Speaker 1: because you you really don't know what you're signing up 4310 04:05:51,400 --> 04:05:53,440 Speaker 1: for the real stuff that you're signing up for until 4311 04:05:53,480 --> 04:06:00,520 Speaker 1: you're in it. Yeah yeah, I mean also a cult 4312 04:06:00,880 --> 04:06:07,880 Speaker 1: um Yeah yeah, well all right, uh Alexander, thank you 4313 04:06:08,000 --> 04:06:10,200 Speaker 1: so much for coming on and for sharing this with us. 4314 04:06:10,240 --> 04:06:13,200 Speaker 1: I think it's a useful look behind the curtain um 4315 04:06:13,680 --> 04:06:18,000 Speaker 1: that that folks need um and this has been it 4316 04:06:18,120 --> 04:06:22,680 Speaker 1: could happen here. You can find Garrison on the internet. 4317 04:06:22,720 --> 04:06:25,720 Speaker 1: Go go go track down Garrison's fake Facebook account. You 4318 04:06:25,800 --> 04:06:28,760 Speaker 1: know what goes do that you can't you can? I 4319 04:06:29,000 --> 04:06:31,960 Speaker 1: I have I have made up possible specifically For this reason, 4320 04:06:33,680 --> 04:06:38,520 Speaker 1: a cop wife group with Harrison joined me and Vanessa 4321 04:06:38,800 --> 04:06:43,160 Speaker 1: so we could discuss our husband's careers. Hey, for all 4322 04:06:43,240 --> 04:06:45,880 Speaker 1: you know, you may cause the de radicalization of the 4323 04:06:45,960 --> 04:06:50,240 Speaker 1: cop Yeah. That or Garrison just gets really weirdly into 4324 04:06:50,400 --> 04:06:55,320 Speaker 1: role playing as the wife of Like a career episode 4325 04:06:55,440 --> 04:06:59,760 Speaker 1: is over, we are done. This is I am pulling 4326 04:06:59,840 --> 04:07:15,520 Speaker 1: the luck. Hi, I'm Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4327 04:07:15,600 --> 04:07:18,040 Speaker 1: And where the hosts of the science podcast Stuff to 4328 04:07:18,080 --> 04:07:20,640 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, where every week we get to explore 4329 04:07:20,720 --> 04:07:23,600 Speaker 1: some of the weirdest questions in the universe, Like if 4330 04:07:23,680 --> 04:07:26,880 Speaker 1: sci fi teleportation was possible, how would it square with 4331 04:07:26,960 --> 04:07:30,400 Speaker 1: the multitudes of organisms that inhabit our human bodies? Can 4332 04:07:30,480 --> 04:07:34,280 Speaker 1: we find evidence of emotions in animals like bees, ants, 4333 04:07:34,360 --> 04:07:39,120 Speaker 1: and crayfish? How would it interplanetary civilization function just free 4334 04:07:39,160 --> 04:07:43,200 Speaker 1: will exist? Stuff to Blow Your Mind examines neurological quandaries, 4335 04:07:43,440 --> 04:07:48,480 Speaker 1: cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, and the wonders of techno history. Basically, 4336 04:07:48,680 --> 04:07:51,400 Speaker 1: this show is the altar where we worship the weirdness 4337 04:07:51,680 --> 04:07:54,360 Speaker 1: of reality. If anybody ever told you you ask the 4338 04:07:54,520 --> 04:07:57,600 Speaker 1: weirdest questions, it is time to come join us in 4339 04:07:57,640 --> 04:08:00,320 Speaker 1: the place where you belong. The Stuff to Blow Your 4340 04:08:00,360 --> 04:08:04,200 Speaker 1: Mind podcast. New episodes publish every Tuesday and Thursday, with 4341 04:08:04,280 --> 04:08:07,280 Speaker 1: bonus episodes on Saturdays. Listen to Stuff to Blow Your 4342 04:08:07,320 --> 04:08:10,080 Speaker 1: Mind on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 4343 04:08:10,080 --> 04:08:15,480 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. After thirty years, it's time 4344 04:08:15,520 --> 04:08:17,840 Speaker 1: to return to the halls of West Beverly High and 4345 04:08:17,960 --> 04:08:20,360 Speaker 1: hang out at the peach pit on the podcast. Nine 4346 04:08:20,400 --> 04:08:23,160 Speaker 1: O two one o MG joined Jenny Garth and Tori 4347 04:08:23,320 --> 04:08:26,200 Speaker 1: Spelling for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly Hills 4348 04:08:26,280 --> 04:08:28,600 Speaker 1: nine O two one oh. From the very beginning, we 4349 04:08:28,840 --> 04:08:31,760 Speaker 1: get to tell the fans all of the behind the 4350 04:08:31,800 --> 04:08:34,680 Speaker 1: scenes stories to actually happen, so they know what happened 4351 04:08:34,720 --> 04:08:37,440 Speaker 1: on camera obviously, but we can tell them all the 4352 04:08:37,480 --> 04:08:39,800 Speaker 1: good stuff that happened off camera. Get all the juicy 4353 04:08:39,880 --> 04:08:43,240 Speaker 1: details of every episode that you've been wondering about for decades. 4354 04:08:43,320 --> 04:08:45,720 Speaker 1: As nine O two one oh, super fan and radio 4355 04:08:45,840 --> 04:08:49,000 Speaker 1: host Sissany sits in with Jenny and Tory, two reminisce, 4356 04:08:49,120 --> 04:08:52,600 Speaker 1: reflect and relive each moment, from Brandon and Kelly's first 4357 04:08:52,680 --> 04:08:56,760 Speaker 1: kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, you have an amazing memory. 4358 04:08:56,880 --> 04:09:00,320 Speaker 1: You remember everything about the entire tenure is that we 4359 04:09:00,360 --> 04:09:04,200 Speaker 1: filmed that show, and you remember absolutely nothing of the 4360 04:09:04,280 --> 04:09:07,640 Speaker 1: ten years that we filmed that show. Listen to nine 4361 04:09:07,720 --> 04:09:10,040 Speaker 1: O two one OMG on the I Heart Radio app, 4362 04:09:10,040 --> 04:09:19,440 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Harrison starts 4363 04:09:19,440 --> 04:09:21,440 Speaker 1: the episode. I don't trust Robbert to me. You want 4364 04:09:21,480 --> 04:09:24,480 Speaker 1: me to start? I don't trust Rowbert to this. It's time, Garrison, 4365 04:09:24,520 --> 04:09:27,600 Speaker 1: it's time for you to learn. Wow, my advice is 4366 04:09:27,680 --> 04:09:30,560 Speaker 1: a tonal shrieking. I am not doing that. Everyone's gonna 4367 04:09:30,560 --> 04:09:34,720 Speaker 1: be like, oh, Garrison's just copying Robert's tone and cadence. 4368 04:09:36,480 --> 04:09:38,920 Speaker 1: You mean you mean they're making sounds with my mouth. Yeah, 4369 04:09:38,960 --> 04:09:44,280 Speaker 1: that's that's how. That's how, that's how communication works. Start 4370 04:09:44,360 --> 04:09:47,520 Speaker 1: the episode with that and trigger everybody like me. You 4371 04:09:47,680 --> 04:09:55,320 Speaker 1: use a microphone, it's very real. Yeah, you stieve we're recording. 4372 04:09:55,680 --> 04:10:00,160 Speaker 1: Let's let's do this. Hey, it's time for stories. We 4373 04:10:00,240 --> 04:10:02,840 Speaker 1: love we love stories here Attika had happen here pod 4374 04:10:03,080 --> 04:10:05,560 Speaker 1: the podcast about how things are kind of falling apart 4375 04:10:05,640 --> 04:10:08,480 Speaker 1: and too maybe some ways to put them back together. Um, 4376 04:10:08,720 --> 04:10:11,600 Speaker 1: I'm Garrison, I'm starting this episode today. I'm not sure why. 4377 04:10:13,360 --> 04:10:17,080 Speaker 1: Hungover Robert is real hungry because I didn't trust Robert 4378 04:10:17,160 --> 04:10:19,600 Speaker 1: to do his job today. But I trust you, Garrison. 4379 04:10:20,280 --> 04:10:22,360 Speaker 1: You didn't really not trust me to do my job. 4380 04:10:22,480 --> 04:10:26,160 Speaker 1: I know. That's that's fun. Um. We also we also 4381 04:10:26,280 --> 04:10:37,120 Speaker 1: Christopher here hey, and and we have uh writer Rebecca Campbell. Hello, hey, 4382 04:10:38,720 --> 04:10:42,600 Speaker 1: and uh what why don't you briefly explain who who 4383 04:10:42,720 --> 04:10:47,520 Speaker 1: you are and what what's what's going on today? Okay, Well, 4384 04:10:47,680 --> 04:10:50,560 Speaker 1: I'm a Canadian writer and sometimes I'm a teacher, but 4385 04:10:50,760 --> 04:10:53,440 Speaker 1: mostly I just write really sad stories about climate change 4386 04:10:53,680 --> 04:10:57,920 Speaker 1: and coasts and aies and near future stuff like that. Um. 4387 04:10:59,760 --> 04:11:01,720 Speaker 1: This story I'm reading it is called Thank You from 4388 04:11:01,880 --> 04:11:04,560 Speaker 1: Your Patients. It came out and reckoning for I guess 4389 04:11:04,680 --> 04:11:08,440 Speaker 1: last year. And uh. It's based on my partner's time 4390 04:11:08,480 --> 04:11:11,040 Speaker 1: when he was working in a call center and the 4391 04:11:11,080 --> 04:11:13,360 Speaker 1: kind of nightmares stories that I heard from him every 4392 04:11:13,400 --> 04:11:16,240 Speaker 1: time he came home from work. But it's also about 4393 04:11:16,320 --> 04:11:18,120 Speaker 1: me being on the other side of the country from 4394 04:11:18,160 --> 04:11:19,640 Speaker 1: the part of the world that I love the most, 4395 04:11:19,720 --> 04:11:23,840 Speaker 1: which is the Pacific Northwest. Um. And you know, watching 4396 04:11:23,920 --> 04:11:27,040 Speaker 1: Fukushima a few years ago and watching wildfires a few 4397 04:11:27,080 --> 04:11:31,280 Speaker 1: weeks ago, and um, being separated from the things that 4398 04:11:31,720 --> 04:11:36,280 Speaker 1: are important to you. Um as they're all falling apart. Well, 4399 04:11:36,360 --> 04:11:39,560 Speaker 1: I'm just excited that this podcast is now two fifths Canadian, 4400 04:11:39,800 --> 04:11:43,720 Speaker 1: so that's that's the main thing I'm excited about. Oh no, 4401 04:11:44,440 --> 04:11:47,240 Speaker 1: oh my god, I just Tim Horton's cup just appeared 4402 04:11:47,320 --> 04:11:51,520 Speaker 1: next to me. It's terrible donut I have. I do 4403 04:11:51,680 --> 04:11:55,560 Speaker 1: have a Tim Horton's kept in my kitchen. Um anyway, 4404 04:11:56,160 --> 04:12:00,240 Speaker 1: let's uh, let's let's let's start this, start this, start 4405 04:12:00,320 --> 04:12:03,680 Speaker 1: this reading, Let's eat this popsicle stand as they say 4406 04:12:04,560 --> 04:12:11,240 Speaker 1: a thing, let's continue, Let's let's eat this. Okay, thank 4407 04:12:11,320 --> 04:12:16,320 Speaker 1: you for your patients. I'm lucky because they replaced a 4408 04:12:16,360 --> 04:12:18,480 Speaker 1: bunch of chairs last month and I got a new one. 4409 04:12:19,120 --> 04:12:21,120 Speaker 1: A good chair is important when you spend ten hours 4410 04:12:21,160 --> 04:12:23,840 Speaker 1: a day in a cubicle talking to strangers about their problems. 4411 04:12:25,000 --> 04:12:27,000 Speaker 1: I've been here three years and worked on most of 4412 04:12:27,040 --> 04:12:30,400 Speaker 1: Western Morgan's services, which means I can, with no thought, 4413 04:12:30,520 --> 04:12:33,680 Speaker 1: help grandma set up her WiFi or troublesheet banking software, 4414 04:12:34,120 --> 04:12:36,000 Speaker 1: or set up your cell phone plan, or help you 4415 04:12:36,080 --> 04:12:38,800 Speaker 1: with some app designed to find your soulmate that nevertheless 4416 04:12:38,880 --> 04:12:42,360 Speaker 1: fills you with hopelessness. I can't help you with the hopelessness. 4417 04:12:43,920 --> 04:12:47,280 Speaker 1: It's nonstandard. But I'm Western Morgan's floater, and Jordi or 4418 04:12:47,360 --> 04:12:49,720 Speaker 1: Kirsty just dropped me where the calls are heavy or 4419 04:12:49,760 --> 04:12:52,800 Speaker 1: turnover as high. On Twitter, I can answer questions within 4420 04:12:52,960 --> 04:12:55,640 Speaker 1: five seconds of some asshole in Toronto saying what the 4421 04:12:55,720 --> 04:12:59,160 Speaker 1: fuck my TV doesn't see the house network, and I respond, 4422 04:13:00,000 --> 04:13:02,280 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to hear that Toronto asshole. Let's see if 4423 04:13:02,280 --> 04:13:05,840 Speaker 1: I can help. I'm impossible to rile because I've heard everything, 4424 04:13:05,920 --> 04:13:10,560 Speaker 1: every possible stupid question, every strange request regarding lapsed policies 4425 04:13:10,600 --> 04:13:14,800 Speaker 1: and misspayments, every paranoid rand, every sort of impotent rage. 4426 04:13:15,200 --> 04:13:17,920 Speaker 1: The management is shitty and the customers are irritable, but 4427 04:13:18,000 --> 04:13:22,880 Speaker 1: there's beauty and problem solving. The really bad stuff started 4428 04:13:22,920 --> 04:13:24,680 Speaker 1: at the end of last month, when I had to 4429 04:13:24,760 --> 04:13:27,280 Speaker 1: do on one on one majority team lead for the floor. 4430 04:13:27,880 --> 04:13:30,160 Speaker 1: I've been fielding a bunch of questions regarding a recent 4431 04:13:30,200 --> 04:13:33,080 Speaker 1: patch that had broken everything. I had this rhythm, hitting 4432 04:13:33,160 --> 04:13:37,360 Speaker 1: my thirty second age and typing without thinking, mark here, 4433 04:13:37,680 --> 04:13:40,440 Speaker 1: how can I help you? But one on one is 4434 04:13:40,520 --> 04:13:44,600 Speaker 1: mandated interruptions. So I listened to Geordy brainstorm about improving morale. 4435 04:13:45,440 --> 04:13:48,320 Speaker 1: They stopped having barbecues because it was too expensive, even 4436 04:13:48,360 --> 04:13:51,360 Speaker 1: when the burgers were sawdust and soy. Also, no one 4437 04:13:51,440 --> 04:13:54,040 Speaker 1: wanted to be outside because Detroit was still burning and 4438 04:13:54,120 --> 04:13:58,160 Speaker 1: the PPM up to something like Beijing. Listen to this 4439 04:13:58,920 --> 04:14:03,240 Speaker 1: Western Morrigan idle Jordi told me, we judge three of 4440 04:14:03,320 --> 04:14:05,280 Speaker 1: the top right calls, and we have a thing and 4441 04:14:05,400 --> 04:14:08,840 Speaker 1: someone walks away with a Timmy's gift card like fifty bucks. 4442 04:14:09,720 --> 04:14:12,960 Speaker 1: Jordy said that like it was a good thing. What 4443 04:14:13,040 --> 04:14:15,600 Speaker 1: about a key, fop, I asked, we can't get out 4444 04:14:15,680 --> 04:14:18,240 Speaker 1: with what without one? After hours? But only management could 4445 04:14:18,320 --> 04:14:21,440 Speaker 1: hold or the winner gets to wear Jane's or keep 4446 04:14:21,480 --> 04:14:24,320 Speaker 1: their phone for a shift. That didn't rate an answer. 4447 04:14:24,440 --> 04:14:27,320 Speaker 1: The most frustrating thing about Western Morgan is that team 4448 04:14:27,400 --> 04:14:29,960 Speaker 1: leads have to hold your phone like you're an untrusted 4449 04:14:30,160 --> 04:14:33,680 Speaker 1: teenager who's been grounded. I feel like I'm lost in 4450 04:14:33,760 --> 04:14:36,520 Speaker 1: a cave or a space station. When I do a 4451 04:14:36,560 --> 04:14:38,680 Speaker 1: lot of overtime. I arrived when it's dark, and I 4452 04:14:38,800 --> 04:14:41,120 Speaker 1: leave when it's dark. And while sometimes I go around 4453 04:14:41,120 --> 04:14:44,760 Speaker 1: the corner for coffee or McNuggets, it always feels like 4454 04:14:44,920 --> 04:14:47,800 Speaker 1: I'm just visiting the world. I don't know what's happened 4455 04:14:47,880 --> 04:14:49,840 Speaker 1: if a government's fall on, or if an ice shelf 4456 04:14:49,880 --> 04:14:53,560 Speaker 1: has collapsed, if Detroit is burning again, or maybe California 4457 04:14:53,960 --> 04:14:56,240 Speaker 1: or the Great Lakes are dying at a slightly faster 4458 04:14:56,480 --> 04:15:00,280 Speaker 1: rate than they were before I left for work, never 4459 04:15:00,400 --> 04:15:03,040 Speaker 1: knowing what's going on outside. I sit in my good 4460 04:15:03,120 --> 04:15:07,280 Speaker 1: chair and say that sounds frustrating to everyone, no matter 4461 04:15:07,320 --> 04:15:10,320 Speaker 1: who's talking or what they want. Let me see if 4462 04:15:10,320 --> 04:15:14,880 Speaker 1: I understand your problem. You could judge Geordie, Stead said, 4463 04:15:14,960 --> 04:15:19,120 Speaker 1: still talking about Morrel. You're impartial. You hate everyone. I 4464 04:15:19,200 --> 04:15:22,520 Speaker 1: don't hate everyone, Georgy, I said reflexively, though, to be fair, 4465 04:15:22,640 --> 04:15:26,360 Speaker 1: I hate a lot of people here. After my mandated 4466 04:15:26,440 --> 04:15:28,680 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes with Gejority, I saw that Misty had a 4467 04:15:28,760 --> 04:15:31,160 Speaker 1: problem with my documentation, which has been rough since they 4468 04:15:31,240 --> 04:15:34,200 Speaker 1: changed policy on me. She's in the Philippines, where most 4469 04:15:34,280 --> 04:15:36,920 Speaker 1: of the real work happens. Upper management is all in India. 4470 04:15:37,160 --> 04:15:40,360 Speaker 1: They only have us because they need Canadian accents on 4471 04:15:40,480 --> 04:15:42,760 Speaker 1: the phones and they get tax breaks. Bringing jobs to 4472 04:15:42,800 --> 04:15:46,120 Speaker 1: one of the more desolate parts of the country downwind 4473 04:15:46,200 --> 04:15:49,800 Speaker 1: from Detroit, rampant West Nile and of the province's heavy 4474 04:15:49,840 --> 04:15:54,320 Speaker 1: metals processed at the plant out by the ball of 4475 04:15:54,360 --> 04:15:56,320 Speaker 1: the baby is born. Here are girls something to do 4476 04:15:56,400 --> 04:16:00,560 Speaker 1: with residual b p A Misty is on the other 4477 04:16:00,640 --> 04:16:03,720 Speaker 1: side of the Pacific in Lagazpi. But you think she 4478 04:16:03,840 --> 04:16:08,120 Speaker 1: was right here considering how aggressively she organizes us. Your 4479 04:16:08,160 --> 04:16:10,360 Speaker 1: ship at filling out forms mark the right up is 4480 04:16:10,360 --> 04:16:13,880 Speaker 1: going to kill your rank. We're stack ranked. Every shift 4481 04:16:14,200 --> 04:16:16,600 Speaker 1: it gets you points you can redeem. You can redeem, 4482 04:16:16,640 --> 04:16:19,720 Speaker 1: which honestly is worth it for the grocery store gift cards. 4483 04:16:21,080 --> 04:16:25,760 Speaker 1: Just tell me what I did wrong. Lagazpi. We were 4484 04:16:25,800 --> 04:16:27,960 Speaker 1: in the middle of a rough month. The flu hit 4485 04:16:28,040 --> 04:16:30,160 Speaker 1: everywhere at once, and no one could afford to lose 4486 04:16:30,200 --> 04:16:31,920 Speaker 1: the work, So we had a bunch of people come 4487 04:16:31,960 --> 04:16:34,960 Speaker 1: in sick coughs and juicy sneezes all over the floor, 4488 04:16:35,120 --> 04:16:37,360 Speaker 1: and half the time you got on the elevator and 4489 04:16:37,480 --> 04:16:41,880 Speaker 1: everyone was gray faced and weaving. I came in over 4490 04:16:41,920 --> 04:16:44,640 Speaker 1: the weekend to cover mobile because they lost half their staff. 4491 04:16:44,720 --> 04:16:46,640 Speaker 1: So I'd been on for eight days by Monday, when 4492 04:16:46,720 --> 04:16:49,280 Speaker 1: Jordy was manic trying to call people in so he 4493 04:16:49,280 --> 04:16:51,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't have to go on the phones. He always says 4494 04:16:51,680 --> 04:16:54,440 Speaker 1: when we're smoking outside, and he's pointedly not looking at 4495 04:16:54,480 --> 04:16:56,920 Speaker 1: the place where the GAM building used to be. It's 4496 04:16:56,960 --> 04:16:59,360 Speaker 1: not the extra fifty cents an hour. It's the fact 4497 04:16:59,480 --> 04:17:02,800 Speaker 1: I don't have to deal with people. He hated taking calls. 4498 04:17:04,440 --> 04:17:06,680 Speaker 1: He offered me overtime, so I started coming in at 4499 04:17:06,720 --> 04:17:09,080 Speaker 1: six and leaving at ten, and I didn't even notice 4500 04:17:09,120 --> 04:17:12,360 Speaker 1: the weekend. I do remember going home those nights and 4501 04:17:12,520 --> 04:17:15,720 Speaker 1: thinking how hollow my room felt with my roommates playing 4502 04:17:15,800 --> 04:17:17,760 Speaker 1: Call of Duty in the living room, and how my 4503 04:17:17,840 --> 04:17:22,320 Speaker 1: body seemed to vibrate caffeine maybe your pseudophedan. I heard 4504 04:17:22,360 --> 04:17:25,360 Speaker 1: phantom time warnings and chimes, and when I closed my eyes, 4505 04:17:25,480 --> 04:17:28,000 Speaker 1: I could see the screen and call after call flooding 4506 04:17:28,040 --> 04:17:31,600 Speaker 1: the queue. By Saturday, Western Morgan was a haunted house, 4507 04:17:31,680 --> 04:17:36,280 Speaker 1: but I still wasn't sick. That sounds frustrating. Let me 4508 04:17:36,320 --> 04:17:41,080 Speaker 1: see if I can help. I was dealing with this 4509 04:17:41,240 --> 04:17:45,040 Speaker 1: woman on Vancouver Islands who couldn't generate invoices. We've been 4510 04:17:45,080 --> 04:17:46,600 Speaker 1: at it for two hours, and I could feel her 4511 04:17:46,640 --> 04:17:48,760 Speaker 1: getting upset when I told her to wipe the whole 4512 04:17:48,800 --> 04:17:50,880 Speaker 1: system and start again. I could help her with that, 4513 04:17:51,320 --> 04:17:53,200 Speaker 1: but she was like, no, we'll lose two weeks of work. 4514 04:17:53,320 --> 04:17:55,680 Speaker 1: There's nothing I can say to that, so we keep 4515 04:17:55,720 --> 04:17:59,040 Speaker 1: troubleshooting even though it's pointless. Okay, I said, you can 4516 04:17:59,080 --> 04:18:02,560 Speaker 1: go back to your root invoice and try. Oh, she 4517 04:18:02,680 --> 04:18:06,320 Speaker 1: said what? And that was it. I didn't hear anything 4518 04:18:06,400 --> 04:18:08,520 Speaker 1: but the line itself, which just went dead, that kind 4519 04:18:08,560 --> 04:18:10,680 Speaker 1: of absence you get when someone hangs up on you. 4520 04:18:12,040 --> 04:18:15,080 Speaker 1: Are you there, ma'am? I called back, but I got 4521 04:18:15,120 --> 04:18:18,000 Speaker 1: a reorder tone, not voice mail or an old fashioned 4522 04:18:18,040 --> 04:18:20,720 Speaker 1: busy signal, but the one that means the whole system 4523 04:18:20,840 --> 04:18:25,080 Speaker 1: is busier, blocked or down. I dropped out of the 4524 04:18:25,160 --> 04:18:27,440 Speaker 1: queue then, which you're not supposed to do, obviously, and 4525 04:18:27,480 --> 04:18:29,880 Speaker 1: went looking for Jordy, who was chatting with Kirsty about 4526 04:18:29,880 --> 04:18:32,880 Speaker 1: Western Morgan idol. I asked if they knew anything, but 4527 04:18:32,960 --> 04:18:34,440 Speaker 1: of course they didn't. And when I asked if I 4528 04:18:34,440 --> 04:18:36,400 Speaker 1: could at least grab my phone to see what was happening, 4529 04:18:36,520 --> 04:18:40,880 Speaker 1: Kirsty did a kind of elementary school teacher sigh. Documentation 4530 04:18:41,040 --> 04:18:45,520 Speaker 1: for three eight zero your overdue mark call you dropped. 4531 04:18:46,480 --> 04:18:50,160 Speaker 1: I saw that explanation happening across the board. Looks like 4532 04:18:50,240 --> 04:18:54,480 Speaker 1: the problems at their end. I didn't find out until 4533 04:18:54,560 --> 04:18:57,000 Speaker 1: Moe came back from break streeked wet in the way 4534 04:18:57,080 --> 04:18:59,440 Speaker 1: you are if you run out into that rain blowing 4535 04:18:59,480 --> 04:19:01,120 Speaker 1: in from to for it because you don't want it 4536 04:19:01,160 --> 04:19:03,800 Speaker 1: to touch your skin, saying earthquake on the West coast, 4537 04:19:04,040 --> 04:19:07,240 Speaker 1: You know anyone out there? I thought about the woman 4538 04:19:07,320 --> 04:19:09,440 Speaker 1: trying to get the invoice together for a tiny order 4539 04:19:09,520 --> 04:19:13,200 Speaker 1: of sea salts from some equally tiny place on Vancouver Island. 4540 04:19:13,400 --> 04:19:17,600 Speaker 1: Her business so miniscule it's still fit into our cheapest subscription. 4541 04:19:18,960 --> 04:19:21,960 Speaker 1: In my unsubmitted documentation for Misty, I had written that 4542 04:19:22,000 --> 04:19:25,120 Speaker 1: her voice sounded like a hopeful but slightly overwhelmed great 4543 04:19:25,160 --> 04:19:29,400 Speaker 1: aunt trying to make the remote control work. No one, 4544 04:19:29,520 --> 04:19:32,480 Speaker 1: how bad like nine point six, the worst since forever, 4545 04:19:32,640 --> 04:19:36,760 Speaker 1: like for hundreds of years, Jesus, I said, Jesus, Jesus, 4546 04:19:37,920 --> 04:19:41,200 Speaker 1: I've had similar moments on calls. When the shooting happened 4547 04:19:41,240 --> 04:19:43,800 Speaker 1: in Montreal, not View ma Real, but the one with 4548 04:19:43,880 --> 04:19:46,760 Speaker 1: the kids ran downtown from McGill and the photographer caught 4549 04:19:46,760 --> 04:19:48,880 Speaker 1: the girl as the bullet tour at her right kneecap. 4550 04:19:50,120 --> 04:19:52,000 Speaker 1: I was on the line with this dick wad in 4551 04:19:52,040 --> 04:19:55,720 Speaker 1: a coworking place on Maisonneuve, who was talking, who was 4552 04:19:55,720 --> 04:19:59,520 Speaker 1: asking to talk to my supervisor then midwine, he stopped talking, 4553 04:19:59,800 --> 04:20:02,480 Speaker 1: like he suddenly didn't care about my attitude. I could 4554 04:20:02,520 --> 04:20:06,680 Speaker 1: hear his phone pinging, sir, are you there? Can you 4555 04:20:06,800 --> 04:20:08,520 Speaker 1: hear that it's happening on the street. I can see 4556 04:20:09,200 --> 04:20:12,120 Speaker 1: a faint popping voice raised and doors slammed. Then he 4557 04:20:12,160 --> 04:20:16,720 Speaker 1: cut the call. I kept in the queue, helped someone update. 4558 04:20:16,760 --> 04:20:19,840 Speaker 1: I did a subscription renewal. The next person, though, needed 4559 04:20:19,880 --> 04:20:22,160 Speaker 1: a backup, and that took forever, so we chatted about 4560 04:20:22,200 --> 04:20:25,480 Speaker 1: hockey until she said, did you hear about Montreal? No, ma'am, 4561 04:20:25,720 --> 04:20:28,480 Speaker 1: I said, thinking about the sound I maybe heard before 4562 04:20:28,560 --> 04:20:33,120 Speaker 1: his phone cut. Firecrackers, backfires. Some guy shot up the 4563 04:20:33,200 --> 04:20:35,960 Speaker 1: whole downtown. I think it was terrorists, who knows FLQ 4564 04:20:36,200 --> 04:20:38,720 Speaker 1: or Muslims, maybe Red Power fifty dead, but it was 4565 04:20:38,760 --> 04:20:42,880 Speaker 1: going up every single time ever fresh the page. She 4566 04:20:43,040 --> 04:20:45,240 Speaker 1: kept going on like this while we did a backup, 4567 04:20:45,440 --> 04:20:47,640 Speaker 1: and then I made sure everything worked. And it had 4568 04:20:47,680 --> 04:20:49,600 Speaker 1: been like three hours at that point, and I kept 4569 04:20:49,680 --> 04:20:51,800 Speaker 1: thinking of the guy and his silence and what was 4570 04:20:51,880 --> 04:20:53,720 Speaker 1: going on in the streets WHI we talked about his 4571 04:20:53,840 --> 04:20:57,040 Speaker 1: log in and how unprofessional I was. I don't have 4572 04:20:57,080 --> 04:20:59,160 Speaker 1: any friends in Montreal. I went there once to drink 4573 04:20:59,160 --> 04:21:01,600 Speaker 1: when I was eighteen. But that's it. I just had 4574 04:21:01,640 --> 04:21:04,720 Speaker 1: that guy and the thump of footsteps fleeing the coworking space. 4575 04:21:06,160 --> 04:21:08,280 Speaker 1: When I took my break, the rain was falling again, 4576 04:21:08,440 --> 04:21:11,000 Speaker 1: the faintly gray kind that runs down the sidewalks and 4577 04:21:11,080 --> 04:21:13,400 Speaker 1: the gutters, and when it builds up enough, you can 4578 04:21:13,480 --> 04:21:16,000 Speaker 1: see it's a little milky because it's full of ash. 4579 04:21:16,880 --> 04:21:19,120 Speaker 1: If you think too hard about what's running into your 4580 04:21:19,200 --> 04:21:22,680 Speaker 1: eyes as you stand outside smoking until your pack is empty, 4581 04:21:23,040 --> 04:21:25,320 Speaker 1: you go eat a twenty four box of tim Bits 4582 04:21:25,440 --> 04:21:27,720 Speaker 1: or six Big Max, or you stop for one beer 4583 04:21:27,800 --> 04:21:29,720 Speaker 1: on the way home and only leave when they push 4584 04:21:29,760 --> 04:21:33,200 Speaker 1: you out the door. Jordy was outside. I gave him 4585 04:21:33,200 --> 04:21:35,600 Speaker 1: a cigarette, even though he doesn't smoke either, and he said, 4586 04:21:36,040 --> 04:21:38,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to be getting cleaner. Wasn't it supposed 4587 04:21:38,080 --> 04:21:41,040 Speaker 1: to get cleaner. He grew up in Detroit, though he 4588 04:21:41,120 --> 04:21:44,760 Speaker 1: was already over here when it burned last year. Maybe 4589 04:21:44,800 --> 04:21:47,440 Speaker 1: it's safer. The ham is worse. I thought the ham 4590 04:21:47,520 --> 04:21:48,960 Speaker 1: was supposed to go away. When they send in the 4591 04:21:49,000 --> 04:21:53,640 Speaker 1: cleanup cruise, we watched the warm, ash colored water run 4592 04:21:53,720 --> 04:21:56,640 Speaker 1: down the gutters until it was ankle deep. This city 4593 04:21:56,880 --> 04:21:59,640 Speaker 1: is a wetland, and there isn't far for water to go, 4594 04:21:59,840 --> 04:22:02,440 Speaker 1: so it ends up in people's basements. All that ashy, 4595 04:22:02,560 --> 04:22:06,920 Speaker 1: bony water running through foundations and drains, a constant trickle 4596 04:22:07,000 --> 04:22:09,680 Speaker 1: in the background, sort of like the fate pop you 4597 04:22:09,800 --> 04:22:11,560 Speaker 1: might hear while you're on the phone with a guy 4598 04:22:11,640 --> 04:22:16,000 Speaker 1: from Montreal who wants to talk to your manager. Does 4599 04:22:16,080 --> 04:22:21,200 Speaker 1: it feel Jordy said, and lit another cigarette. What Jordy, 4600 04:22:22,040 --> 04:22:26,520 Speaker 1: I hate how often he doesn't finish his sentences. Does 4601 04:22:26,560 --> 04:22:28,760 Speaker 1: it feel like it's happening more now? The sort of thing. 4602 04:22:30,880 --> 04:22:33,240 Speaker 1: I dropped my smoke into the rain water and I shrugged. 4603 04:22:33,240 --> 04:22:34,880 Speaker 1: Then I said I wish I knew what to tell you, 4604 04:22:35,200 --> 04:22:37,160 Speaker 1: which wasn't a real answer, and I used my tech 4605 04:22:37,200 --> 04:22:40,480 Speaker 1: support voice when I said it, because I didn't want 4606 04:22:40,520 --> 04:22:44,760 Speaker 1: to have that conversation. On my first break after the earthquake, 4607 04:22:44,840 --> 04:22:47,320 Speaker 1: I smoked and watched the rain and videos on my phone. 4608 04:22:47,400 --> 04:22:50,280 Speaker 1: Someone live streaming the moment it hit bored talk about 4609 04:22:50,280 --> 04:22:52,880 Speaker 1: food or weather, than a strange look on their face. 4610 04:22:53,160 --> 04:22:57,560 Speaker 1: Their eyes dart upward, then the phone falls overhead Footage 4611 04:22:57,600 --> 04:23:02,720 Speaker 1: from helicopters a downtown Vancouver, all those green towers swaying 4612 04:23:02,800 --> 04:23:05,960 Speaker 1: and falling and the bridge swinging until the cable snap 4613 04:23:06,080 --> 04:23:09,960 Speaker 1: like rubber bands, the worst in recorded history, worse probably 4614 04:23:10,040 --> 04:23:13,240 Speaker 1: than the last Mega thrust in seventeen hundred. I just 4615 04:23:13,360 --> 04:23:16,000 Speaker 1: kept thinking of that woman and the sort of quiet shock, 4616 04:23:16,080 --> 04:23:19,800 Speaker 1: and her voice, her, oh is that? And then nothing, 4617 04:23:21,000 --> 04:23:22,920 Speaker 1: And I was standing out in the rain, still warm, 4618 04:23:23,120 --> 04:23:24,840 Speaker 1: when it occurred to me that I might have heard 4619 04:23:24,880 --> 04:23:27,600 Speaker 1: her last words. I kept thinking about the texture of 4620 04:23:27,680 --> 04:23:30,520 Speaker 1: the silence after the call dropped, and what had happened 4621 04:23:30,560 --> 04:23:32,720 Speaker 1: the moment after that, if that had been the worst 4622 04:23:32,800 --> 04:23:35,840 Speaker 1: of it, the shock of the whole world rumbling, or 4623 04:23:35,880 --> 04:23:37,800 Speaker 1: if it had been worse for her after that or 4624 04:23:37,920 --> 04:23:42,960 Speaker 1: right now or tomorrow. I only had ten minutes because 4625 04:23:43,000 --> 04:23:45,720 Speaker 1: call volume was increasing. My throat started to tickle in 4626 04:23:45,760 --> 04:23:48,640 Speaker 1: the world just suddenly out of nowhere, started to look glassy. 4627 04:23:49,040 --> 04:23:51,080 Speaker 1: The light thick from the ceiling squares, and my skin 4628 04:23:51,160 --> 04:23:53,480 Speaker 1: prickled when I ran my hands over my arms, which 4629 04:23:53,480 --> 04:23:56,680 Speaker 1: were covered with goose bumps. The floor was nearly empty 4630 04:23:56,720 --> 04:23:59,600 Speaker 1: except for Jority running around supervising and not taking calls, 4631 04:23:59,640 --> 04:24:02,080 Speaker 1: and the you was packed. My first call was around 4632 04:24:02,080 --> 04:24:05,200 Speaker 1: way north along the coast Prince Rupert, a woman calling 4633 04:24:05,200 --> 04:24:07,800 Speaker 1: about a password reset. I want Mark, She said he 4634 04:24:07,880 --> 04:24:11,160 Speaker 1: helped me before. Can I talk to Mark? While I 4635 04:24:11,280 --> 04:24:14,000 Speaker 1: was documenting, I thought, fuck it, I'm going to tell 4636 04:24:14,120 --> 04:24:16,200 Speaker 1: Missy what the old woman told me while we were 4637 04:24:16,240 --> 04:24:19,080 Speaker 1: waiting for the password reset email, about how when you're 4638 04:24:19,120 --> 04:24:21,280 Speaker 1: that far north you don't notice time passing, and you 4639 04:24:21,360 --> 04:24:24,760 Speaker 1: feel good in an unimaginable way in summer, luminous and hopeful, 4640 04:24:25,200 --> 04:24:27,400 Speaker 1: and how in winter all you want to do is 4641 04:24:27,520 --> 04:24:29,760 Speaker 1: die and drink yourself into a coma, so you know 4642 04:24:29,840 --> 04:24:36,760 Speaker 1: it balances out. After that, I reopened three zero. An 4643 04:24:36,800 --> 04:24:40,040 Speaker 1: elderly woman, I wrote on a phone, trying to print 4644 04:24:40,120 --> 04:24:43,240 Speaker 1: invoices for locally produced sea salt, looks over at the 4645 04:24:43,320 --> 04:24:45,880 Speaker 1: rack of glass jars in which she keeps her stock 4646 04:24:46,040 --> 04:24:49,080 Speaker 1: because she hears a rattle, then another. Then she says, oh, 4647 04:24:49,600 --> 04:24:52,640 Speaker 1: is that and nothing else, because at that moment, the 4648 04:24:52,720 --> 04:24:57,280 Speaker 1: force of rashimas lit the Cascadius abduction zone, on which 4649 04:24:57,360 --> 04:25:00,960 Speaker 1: Vancouver Island rests like a cork in a bottle. Centuries 4650 04:25:01,000 --> 04:25:06,040 Speaker 1: of continental tension released. I typed that, then I hit send. 4651 04:25:06,120 --> 04:25:08,640 Speaker 1: Then I added a secondary note on her file. At 4652 04:25:08,720 --> 04:25:11,560 Speaker 1: eight thirty two p s t A nine point eight 4653 04:25:11,680 --> 04:25:16,200 Speaker 1: hit the Cascadia subduction zone, and Misty was right there 4654 04:25:16,240 --> 04:25:18,560 Speaker 1: on chad Hive, not telling me it was inappropriate. She 4655 04:25:18,640 --> 04:25:21,400 Speaker 1: wrote rest their souls, and I was comforted by those 4656 04:25:21,400 --> 04:25:26,040 Speaker 1: temporary words, which surprised me. My grandparents were on minda 4657 04:25:26,120 --> 04:25:31,440 Speaker 1: now in the nineteen seventy six earthquake, you got anyone there? No, 4658 04:25:33,160 --> 04:25:35,760 Speaker 1: I heard the hum from Detroit. It was somehow a 4659 04:25:35,880 --> 04:25:38,440 Speaker 1: relief to know that across the world, Misty was in 4660 04:25:38,480 --> 04:25:42,520 Speaker 1: a similar room among people evaluating documentation for apps and 4661 04:25:42,600 --> 04:25:46,200 Speaker 1: I s p s and accounting software, people saying that 4662 04:25:46,320 --> 04:25:49,160 Speaker 1: must be frustrating. Let's see if I can help. Something 4663 04:25:49,200 --> 04:25:53,360 Speaker 1: occurred to me. Do you hear anything about tsunamis no 4664 04:25:53,480 --> 04:25:55,680 Speaker 1: word so far? Do you have your phones? You can 4665 04:25:55,720 --> 04:25:59,320 Speaker 1: get the alerts. They'll let us know we're so bad. 4666 04:25:59,360 --> 04:26:00,960 Speaker 1: I'm taking call so I won't be fixing your dog 4667 04:26:01,040 --> 04:26:04,960 Speaker 1: until tomorrow. I wondered if Kirsty would let us know, 4668 04:26:05,120 --> 04:26:06,880 Speaker 1: or if she would dither about it until all we 4669 04:26:06,960 --> 04:26:08,800 Speaker 1: could do was climbed to the top floor of the 4670 04:26:08,840 --> 04:26:11,160 Speaker 1: building and watch a way consume what was left of 4671 04:26:11,200 --> 04:26:14,520 Speaker 1: Detroit before it swamped us to five more calls and 4672 04:26:14,560 --> 04:26:16,560 Speaker 1: I refilled my water bottle, the one with the slogan 4673 04:26:16,640 --> 04:26:19,640 Speaker 1: on it, fueling small business with the tools to succeed 4674 04:26:20,040 --> 04:26:23,320 Speaker 1: that some now lost Western Morgan contract brought in. And 4675 04:26:23,400 --> 04:26:25,240 Speaker 1: I was looking at my skin reflected in the sink, 4676 04:26:25,320 --> 04:26:27,400 Speaker 1: which was the color of those pale, lumpy smokers you 4677 04:26:27,480 --> 04:26:30,040 Speaker 1: see outside the entrance, the color of a raw filet 4678 04:26:30,080 --> 04:26:33,680 Speaker 1: of fish. I felt adrenalized, like a moment before it'd 4679 04:26:33,680 --> 04:26:36,960 Speaker 1: been terrified, but I could not remember how or why. 4680 04:26:37,680 --> 04:26:39,880 Speaker 1: I wondered what it was doing to me inside. All 4681 04:26:39,920 --> 04:26:43,360 Speaker 1: those cells now remade into virus factories, turning to goog 4682 04:26:43,440 --> 04:26:46,360 Speaker 1: and mah and sloughing off while the virus proliferated through 4683 04:26:46,440 --> 04:26:48,920 Speaker 1: my system, and I left traces of it on everything 4684 04:26:48,960 --> 04:26:51,760 Speaker 1: I touched. The water ran over the top of the 4685 04:26:51,800 --> 04:26:55,000 Speaker 1: bottle clear. So far the ash hasn't worked its way 4686 04:26:55,080 --> 04:26:57,920 Speaker 1: in through the city's water system, or maybe it has, 4687 04:26:58,120 --> 04:27:00,720 Speaker 1: and it was invisible like the microlo sticks in the lake. 4688 04:27:02,560 --> 04:27:06,160 Speaker 1: So you're gonna judge it was, Jordy, We're gonna do 4689 04:27:06,240 --> 04:27:08,200 Speaker 1: it next week. I was thinking that set a time limit, 4690 04:27:08,280 --> 04:27:10,480 Speaker 1: like five minutes, you and me and Kirsty judge it. 4691 04:27:10,520 --> 04:27:13,120 Speaker 1: I'll grab a fifty for the Jimmy's card too, man, 4692 04:27:13,760 --> 04:27:16,560 Speaker 1: I said, Georgie just stared at me. You're getting sick. 4693 04:27:16,840 --> 04:27:18,840 Speaker 1: You know what you need to do. He went on 4694 04:27:18,960 --> 04:27:21,320 Speaker 1: about ekenesia and flu effects. And I thought about the 4695 04:27:21,360 --> 04:27:24,240 Speaker 1: tsunami that was or was not traveling across the Pacific, 4696 04:27:24,760 --> 04:27:27,000 Speaker 1: or just hammer your system with antioxidants to take a 4697 04:27:27,040 --> 04:27:30,520 Speaker 1: double dose of night quill. Without thinking, I pulled my 4698 04:27:30,560 --> 04:27:33,440 Speaker 1: phone out of my pocket. You know you can't have 4699 04:27:33,600 --> 04:27:36,760 Speaker 1: that anywhere on the floor. I was already googling Pacific 4700 04:27:36,840 --> 04:27:39,200 Speaker 1: tsunami alert and it was rolling rainbows and I stared 4701 04:27:39,200 --> 04:27:41,160 Speaker 1: at it so hard that it seemed to take over 4702 04:27:41,200 --> 04:27:43,520 Speaker 1: the whole world. And then I shivered. But Jority was 4703 04:27:43,560 --> 04:27:46,120 Speaker 1: still talking. Don't make me write you up. I don't 4704 04:27:46,120 --> 04:27:49,600 Speaker 1: want to deal with it, okay, I said. It's about 4705 04:27:49,640 --> 04:27:51,880 Speaker 1: privacy for our users. They need to know that they 4706 04:27:51,920 --> 04:27:55,360 Speaker 1: can trust our integrity, our word, and our system. The 4707 04:27:55,440 --> 04:27:58,200 Speaker 1: poster on the far side of the brake room said integrity, 4708 04:27:58,320 --> 04:28:01,160 Speaker 1: word and system. I saw that the alert had been 4709 04:28:01,160 --> 04:28:03,840 Speaker 1: issued for Japan. That's when he took my phone. You 4710 04:28:03,920 --> 04:28:05,720 Speaker 1: fucked the dog. I have to write you up. I 4711 04:28:05,800 --> 04:28:08,600 Speaker 1: don't want to write you up Japan in six hours, 4712 04:28:08,760 --> 04:28:12,320 Speaker 1: eight pm, I'd still be on then. While very far away, 4713 04:28:12,560 --> 04:28:14,880 Speaker 1: a wave crested on the sea coast, filling the river 4714 04:28:14,960 --> 04:28:24,080 Speaker 1: basins and the car parks. I know you don't have 4715 04:28:24,160 --> 04:28:26,480 Speaker 1: to surrender your phone, even if they can require you 4716 04:28:26,560 --> 04:28:28,680 Speaker 1: to leave it at home. I know they're not supposed 4717 04:28:28,680 --> 04:28:30,800 Speaker 1: to lock you in either, or let you smoke within 4718 04:28:30,880 --> 04:28:33,280 Speaker 1: three ms of the door, even when the ashes falling. 4719 04:28:33,960 --> 04:28:36,000 Speaker 1: They're not supposed to pay you in points. You can 4720 04:28:36,040 --> 04:28:38,720 Speaker 1: then exchange for grocery store gift cards, which you need 4721 04:28:38,800 --> 04:28:41,920 Speaker 1: because the new minimum wage wasn't even covering rent. But 4722 04:28:42,000 --> 04:28:45,800 Speaker 1: I needed a job. The next call I got was 4723 04:28:45,880 --> 04:28:48,320 Speaker 1: farther south, closer to the epicenter. The first thing I 4724 04:28:48,400 --> 04:28:50,680 Speaker 1: did was asked about the earthquake. Oh, we felt it, 4725 04:28:50,760 --> 04:28:53,160 Speaker 1: and there's a tsunami warning. But we're far enough inland 4726 04:28:53,160 --> 04:28:55,840 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be tsunami warning. So when I go try 4727 04:28:55,880 --> 04:28:59,520 Speaker 1: to log in tsunami, I keep getting the same error. 4728 04:28:59,720 --> 04:29:02,040 Speaker 1: It's a my accounts frozen. What does that mean? I 4729 04:29:02,160 --> 04:29:04,280 Speaker 1: need to do some invoices? And yeah, I just got 4730 04:29:04,320 --> 04:29:06,160 Speaker 1: the text like half an hour ago. Landfall is like 4731 04:29:06,240 --> 04:29:09,800 Speaker 1: an hour. The account was frozen due to miss payments. 4732 04:29:09,840 --> 04:29:12,000 Speaker 1: So I pointed that out and the guy insisted no, 4733 04:29:12,280 --> 04:29:14,480 Speaker 1: he set up an automated transfer, and he kept me 4734 04:29:14,520 --> 04:29:16,320 Speaker 1: on the line while he chatted with the bank's tech 4735 04:29:16,360 --> 04:29:19,040 Speaker 1: support on another line to sort out the direct deposit, 4736 04:29:19,400 --> 04:29:21,840 Speaker 1: and then I reactivated his account. All this time, the 4737 04:29:21,920 --> 04:29:25,360 Speaker 1: tsunami traveling towards the coast or the shallower bottom would 4738 04:29:25,440 --> 04:29:27,840 Speaker 1: raise the waves height by narrowing its length, because the 4739 04:29:27,960 --> 04:29:30,200 Speaker 1: last time I'd been outside, I'd looked at a gift 4740 04:29:30,240 --> 04:29:33,720 Speaker 1: on Wikipedia that demonstrated how tsunami's crest as they traveled 4741 04:29:33,800 --> 04:29:37,480 Speaker 1: through shallow waters. The last thing he said wasn't thanks, 4742 04:29:37,680 --> 04:29:40,040 Speaker 1: it was there. It is. The tide's going way out. 4743 04:29:40,160 --> 04:29:42,920 Speaker 1: I hope everyone's out of downtown. Then he was gone, 4744 04:29:43,080 --> 04:29:45,400 Speaker 1: and I can imagine it, the water running away from 4745 04:29:45,440 --> 04:29:48,560 Speaker 1: the shore like a huge exhalation and then collecting into 4746 04:29:48,600 --> 04:29:52,440 Speaker 1: a rising wave that would destroy them all the tsunami 4747 04:29:52,560 --> 04:29:54,760 Speaker 1: warning I wrote in chat hive, hoping Misty was there. 4748 04:29:55,400 --> 04:29:58,480 Speaker 1: Kirsty responded instantly that is not appropriate. Chat hive is 4749 04:29:58,520 --> 04:30:01,680 Speaker 1: for important work stuff. We haven't heard anything, but we 4750 04:30:01,760 --> 04:30:04,320 Speaker 1: were swamps, so who knows what's going on outside. Chat 4751 04:30:04,400 --> 04:30:07,360 Speaker 1: Hi channel will only be used for appropriate business related business. 4752 04:30:08,040 --> 04:30:10,960 Speaker 1: Maybe you should get out. Chat hi channel will only 4753 04:30:11,000 --> 04:30:16,520 Speaker 1: be used for appropriate business related business. I'd been there 4754 04:30:16,600 --> 04:30:19,160 Speaker 1: for sixteen hours, and I couldn't remember the last time 4755 04:30:19,200 --> 04:30:21,600 Speaker 1: I slept a full night at home when I hadn't 4756 04:30:21,600 --> 04:30:24,120 Speaker 1: been buzzed on cold pills in exhaustion and the sound 4757 04:30:24,160 --> 04:30:27,840 Speaker 1: of call of duty from the living room. That week, 4758 04:30:27,880 --> 04:30:30,480 Speaker 1: when I did sleep, I kept saying, this is Mark 4759 04:30:30,520 --> 04:30:33,480 Speaker 1: from Magnicore, or this is Mark from wherever I am 4760 04:30:33,640 --> 04:30:36,240 Speaker 1: right now, and heard explosions and the way voices carry 4761 04:30:36,280 --> 04:30:38,520 Speaker 1: over for the river from Detroit, the screams and the 4762 04:30:38,600 --> 04:30:42,000 Speaker 1: crowds and the gunshots. Or maybe I was never actually asleep. 4763 04:30:42,160 --> 04:30:44,760 Speaker 1: Maybe I was just off my head. I shouldn't have 4764 04:30:44,800 --> 04:30:46,680 Speaker 1: washed the pills down with beer. But there's that thing 4765 04:30:46,760 --> 04:30:48,960 Speaker 1: that happens when you stop in for a beer after work, 4766 04:30:49,040 --> 04:30:51,240 Speaker 1: and the inertia of the whole thing, the job, the 4767 04:30:51,240 --> 04:30:53,080 Speaker 1: shitty beer, and the fact that a person brings you 4768 04:30:53,160 --> 04:30:55,560 Speaker 1: food even if you can't afford it. It sticks you 4769 04:30:55,680 --> 04:30:58,320 Speaker 1: to your seat. It was bad last summer when we 4770 04:30:58,360 --> 04:31:00,120 Speaker 1: couldn't afford to run the a C. But the bar 4771 04:31:00,200 --> 04:31:01,960 Speaker 1: on the way home could, and it was full of 4772 04:31:02,000 --> 04:31:05,360 Speaker 1: familiar guys, broke and lonely and trying to avoid looking 4773 04:31:05,400 --> 04:31:07,800 Speaker 1: at what was left of the Detroit skyline, or the 4774 04:31:07,840 --> 04:31:10,560 Speaker 1: gray green clouds boiling to the north, and the hail 4775 04:31:10,880 --> 04:31:14,680 Speaker 1: and the lightning storms every afternoon like clockwork. The summers 4776 04:31:14,680 --> 04:31:17,560 Speaker 1: are definitely hotter, and the mosquitoes are definitely worse. And 4777 04:31:17,640 --> 04:31:20,120 Speaker 1: the last summer I noticed that the birds don't sing anymore. 4778 04:31:20,440 --> 04:31:26,080 Speaker 1: All their whistles and like video game lasers. I stepped 4779 04:31:26,080 --> 04:31:28,960 Speaker 1: outside for another cigarette and realized the door had been locked. 4780 04:31:29,000 --> 04:31:30,640 Speaker 1: And I don't have a fall because I don't rate 4781 04:31:30,680 --> 04:31:33,920 Speaker 1: a fob. Jordy was there too, setting up his stupid 4782 04:31:34,000 --> 04:31:36,480 Speaker 1: Western Morgan idol piles a bright pink and green and 4783 04:31:36,520 --> 04:31:39,320 Speaker 1: blue post it. Now it's all over his desk. I 4784 04:31:39,400 --> 04:31:41,680 Speaker 1: need to go out. The doors are locked for the night. 4785 04:31:42,000 --> 04:31:44,880 Speaker 1: I need to go out. We lost another girl from online. 4786 04:31:44,880 --> 04:31:46,520 Speaker 1: You'll have to take over social media if we lose 4787 04:31:46,520 --> 04:31:50,040 Speaker 1: anyone else. Take your break here. I just kind of 4788 04:31:50,160 --> 04:31:52,200 Speaker 1: stared at him, and my skin prickled, like all the 4789 04:31:52,280 --> 04:31:54,240 Speaker 1: suit of apedron I had taken had rushed to the 4790 04:31:54,320 --> 04:31:57,480 Speaker 1: surface and was blasting every single nerve ending in my body. 4791 04:31:58,640 --> 04:32:02,800 Speaker 1: I need to go outside. You can't, like you physically can't. 4792 04:32:04,720 --> 04:32:06,560 Speaker 1: I kind of stood there, and I'm ashamed to say 4793 04:32:06,640 --> 04:32:09,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to cry, like a little kid who isn't 4794 04:32:09,240 --> 04:32:11,280 Speaker 1: allowed to use the bathroom, who just wants to sit 4795 04:32:11,360 --> 04:32:14,560 Speaker 1: with his dad but keeps getting dragged away by unfamiliar relatives. 4796 04:32:15,640 --> 04:32:17,560 Speaker 1: The kind of crying you see on the bus at 4797 04:32:17,640 --> 04:32:19,720 Speaker 1: rush hour when some little kid coming back from the 4798 04:32:19,760 --> 04:32:22,560 Speaker 1: mall loses it and lies in the aisle wailing, cramming 4799 04:32:22,680 --> 04:32:24,600 Speaker 1: road salt in his mouth, and you just think you 4800 04:32:24,760 --> 04:32:28,720 Speaker 1: and me both. I didn't actually cry. I hate myself 4801 04:32:28,800 --> 04:32:31,520 Speaker 1: because I just said begging, can I please have my 4802 04:32:31,600 --> 04:32:34,880 Speaker 1: phone back? Please? Jordy looked at me like I was 4803 04:32:34,880 --> 04:32:36,520 Speaker 1: an idiot him in the middle of all the post 4804 04:32:36,600 --> 04:32:39,360 Speaker 1: it notes that read congratulations and You're a winner and 4805 04:32:39,560 --> 04:32:44,320 Speaker 1: Western Morgan idol. I didn't say anything. I left at first. 4806 04:32:44,400 --> 04:32:46,920 Speaker 1: I just sat in the lunch room, shivering and nauseated, 4807 04:32:47,360 --> 04:32:49,560 Speaker 1: staring at the plastic solo cup left over from the 4808 04:32:49,600 --> 04:32:52,560 Speaker 1: barbecues they used to give before the ash. There will 4809 04:32:52,600 --> 04:32:54,960 Speaker 1: be worse moments in my life, no doubt, more pain, 4810 04:32:55,120 --> 04:32:58,440 Speaker 1: more sadness, but I can't imagine anything so wide ranging 4811 04:32:58,960 --> 04:33:02,920 Speaker 1: in its desolation as that moment. The only thing I 4812 04:33:03,000 --> 04:33:05,120 Speaker 1: could focus on was telling miss Ty to get her 4813 04:33:05,160 --> 04:33:08,320 Speaker 1: phone back and watch the horizon and be ready to escape. 4814 04:33:10,200 --> 04:33:12,840 Speaker 1: A girl from online staggered through, sweaty and pale, and 4815 04:33:12,919 --> 04:33:14,640 Speaker 1: I knew that Georgy would be there in a minute 4816 04:33:14,919 --> 04:33:18,400 Speaker 1: to ask for another eight hours overnight answering stranger's questions 4817 04:33:18,440 --> 04:33:21,160 Speaker 1: so perfectly that they treat me like a shitty customer 4818 04:33:21,280 --> 04:33:25,520 Speaker 1: service AI built to serve. There aren't a lot of 4819 04:33:25,600 --> 04:33:27,400 Speaker 1: choices in life, are there. You can choose to have 4820 04:33:27,520 --> 04:33:29,920 Speaker 1: kids or not, to leave your hometown or not, or 4821 04:33:29,960 --> 04:33:32,280 Speaker 1: to stay in a terrible job you are, for some reason, 4822 04:33:32,440 --> 04:33:35,400 Speaker 1: very good at. But other than that, what is there? 4823 04:33:35,520 --> 04:33:39,480 Speaker 1: Just a lot of compliance and non compliance. This moment 4824 04:33:39,560 --> 04:33:42,160 Speaker 1: didn't feel like a choice. I said to the girl, 4825 04:33:42,400 --> 04:33:44,160 Speaker 1: we need to get out of here, and she nodded. 4826 04:33:44,480 --> 04:33:46,280 Speaker 1: Then we headed down to the lobby. The doors were 4827 04:33:46,360 --> 04:33:48,360 Speaker 1: locked and no one caring a key was in the building, 4828 04:33:48,600 --> 04:33:50,879 Speaker 1: and the girl just looked bad. But when I went 4829 04:33:50,960 --> 04:33:52,880 Speaker 1: to the fire escape, she still said, no, no, we're 4830 04:33:52,880 --> 04:33:56,840 Speaker 1: not supposed to. We need to get out. They'll fire us. 4831 04:33:57,640 --> 04:33:59,600 Speaker 1: And I could hear the fear in her voice, and 4832 04:33:59,640 --> 04:34:02,160 Speaker 1: I wont heard how badly she needed this job, that 4833 04:34:02,280 --> 04:34:04,080 Speaker 1: she was here in the middle of the night, so 4834 04:34:04,280 --> 04:34:07,560 Speaker 1: sick she could hardly stand. Tell them I did it, 4835 04:34:07,640 --> 04:34:10,759 Speaker 1: I said, and hit the bar, only it didn't move 4836 04:34:10,880 --> 04:34:14,280 Speaker 1: because the fire escape was locked too. The next thing 4837 04:34:14,360 --> 04:34:16,480 Speaker 1: I did was stupid, but I don't know what else 4838 04:34:16,520 --> 04:34:18,280 Speaker 1: I could have done. I walked back to the lobby 4839 04:34:18,320 --> 04:34:20,080 Speaker 1: and picked up a garbage can and began slamming it 4840 04:34:20,160 --> 04:34:23,120 Speaker 1: into the glass door behind me. She was coughing and 4841 04:34:23,240 --> 04:34:26,000 Speaker 1: coughing and said maybe stop, stop, but so faintly I 4842 04:34:26,080 --> 04:34:28,640 Speaker 1: could ignore it. Then we were out, and she was 4843 04:34:28,680 --> 04:34:31,640 Speaker 1: staggering towards the emergency room on wilette and I was 4844 04:34:31,720 --> 04:34:34,560 Speaker 1: alone in the rain water the same temperature as my blood. 4845 04:34:35,240 --> 04:34:37,600 Speaker 1: Then I went looking for a pay phone, because the 4846 04:34:37,720 --> 04:34:39,480 Speaker 1: only way to sort this out was to call in. 4847 04:34:40,080 --> 04:34:43,160 Speaker 1: But I couldn't remember which of Western Morgan's departments Misty 4848 04:34:43,240 --> 04:34:45,440 Speaker 1: was assigned to. So when I finally found the city's 4849 04:34:45,560 --> 04:34:48,560 Speaker 1: last pay phone in the bus depot, I called them all, 4850 04:34:48,759 --> 04:34:51,240 Speaker 1: all the sad voices of men and women here and 4851 04:34:51,360 --> 04:34:55,520 Speaker 1: on the other side of the world. Welcome to Kyphus 4852 04:34:55,680 --> 04:35:00,360 Speaker 1: Business Systems. Jane speaking, Can I help you? Welcome to 4853 04:35:00,400 --> 04:35:04,000 Speaker 1: Tesla Mobility. Can I help you? Welcome to ross Common 4854 04:35:04,040 --> 04:35:08,720 Speaker 1: Account Services. Welcome to Lighthouse Mobility. I'm looking for Misty. 4855 04:35:08,840 --> 04:35:11,720 Speaker 1: She helped me before. I'm sure I can help you. 4856 04:35:11,800 --> 04:35:15,080 Speaker 1: What's your user number, Misty, Misty knows, I said, my voice, 4857 04:35:15,160 --> 04:35:18,200 Speaker 1: queer less and elderly, put on Misty. I could hear 4858 04:35:18,280 --> 04:35:21,400 Speaker 1: the exhaustion in his silence than the compliance. One moment, 4859 04:35:21,480 --> 04:35:26,080 Speaker 1: I'll transfer you, Hey, Misty, I said, Misty, Misty, you 4860 04:35:26,160 --> 04:35:29,280 Speaker 1: need to get to high ground. What who is this? 4861 04:35:30,240 --> 04:35:34,440 Speaker 1: Just promise, Kay, there's no tsunami warning. It's on its way. 4862 04:35:34,680 --> 04:35:38,040 Speaker 1: It's passing Japan and Hawaii. It hit the Allusians California. 4863 04:35:38,880 --> 04:35:41,080 Speaker 1: I hope she didn't mistake me for what I felt 4864 04:35:41,120 --> 04:35:44,400 Speaker 1: like right then, a crazy old man mad with loneliness, 4865 04:35:44,800 --> 04:35:46,800 Speaker 1: longing to hear a voice in the void, even if 4866 04:35:46,800 --> 04:35:48,880 Speaker 1: it was only to harangue them for the weakness of 4867 04:35:48,919 --> 04:35:53,039 Speaker 1: their service and the terrible nature of their product. Mark, 4868 04:35:54,560 --> 04:35:57,040 Speaker 1: another six hours to landfall. I know you'll still be 4869 04:35:57,160 --> 04:36:01,840 Speaker 1: on shift, promise. I waited for her to disconnect, which 4870 04:36:01,919 --> 04:36:04,760 Speaker 1: was okay, because at least I told her then. I 4871 04:36:04,840 --> 04:36:08,600 Speaker 1: think maybe she said thank you, Mark, or maybe it 4872 04:36:08,680 --> 04:36:10,640 Speaker 1: was just the noise in my head. I held the 4873 04:36:10,720 --> 04:36:14,000 Speaker 1: line another moment that hung up. I felt okay because 4874 04:36:14,040 --> 04:36:16,440 Speaker 1: I got through, Because I wasn't in a cubicle anymore, 4875 04:36:16,640 --> 04:36:19,120 Speaker 1: because I could walk home and enjoy the silence before 4876 04:36:19,160 --> 04:36:21,680 Speaker 1: call of duty, marathons in the living room, enjoy the 4877 04:36:21,759 --> 04:36:28,320 Speaker 1: ashy rain falling across my slowly cooking skin. I walked home, Misty. 4878 04:36:29,919 --> 04:36:34,720 Speaker 1: I walked home, hoping. Misty said, thank you, Mark. It 4879 04:36:34,800 --> 04:36:36,520 Speaker 1: felt like I was slipping through a gap in the 4880 04:36:36,600 --> 04:36:40,120 Speaker 1: world between noises, a kind of silent passage, the way 4881 04:36:40,240 --> 04:36:44,200 Speaker 1: kids slip along the abandoned rail easements in town below grade, 4882 04:36:44,720 --> 04:36:47,560 Speaker 1: the corridors of grass and rats and squirrels and birds, 4883 04:36:47,919 --> 04:36:50,039 Speaker 1: between the noise of the phones and call of duty, 4884 04:36:51,040 --> 04:36:54,960 Speaker 1: between heartbeats, between crusting waves, the silence you hang onto 4885 04:36:55,040 --> 04:36:57,520 Speaker 1: for just a moment when someone hangs up, before you 4886 04:36:57,600 --> 04:36:59,760 Speaker 1: go on to the next call, because there is to 4887 04:37:00,040 --> 04:37:03,880 Speaker 1: primarily a respect from the tyranny of the queue, the 4888 04:37:04,000 --> 04:37:06,760 Speaker 1: silence after a bullet connects or a wave hits on 4889 04:37:06,840 --> 04:37:09,759 Speaker 1: the other side of the world. I just hope harder 4890 04:37:09,960 --> 04:37:12,920 Speaker 1: and harder and harder that Misty would insist they unlocked 4891 04:37:12,960 --> 04:37:15,640 Speaker 1: the doors and break the windows, and they would escape 4892 04:37:15,800 --> 04:37:18,640 Speaker 1: before the wave arrived to wash the rest of us away. 4893 04:37:20,480 --> 04:37:22,480 Speaker 1: I don't know how to add a clapping sound effect 4894 04:37:22,480 --> 04:37:27,640 Speaker 1: without it just sounding horrible in the audio airhorns you 4895 04:37:27,680 --> 04:37:31,720 Speaker 1: know what, danial um already straight seconds of air horns 4896 04:37:32,800 --> 04:37:35,879 Speaker 1: or or or not? Um. I think with the air 4897 04:37:35,960 --> 04:37:39,480 Speaker 1: horns are good. It was beautiful. Yeah, that was wonderful. 4898 04:37:39,880 --> 04:37:44,760 Speaker 1: It's really incredible, Thank you so much, and particularly relevant 4899 04:37:44,880 --> 04:37:51,840 Speaker 1: now Yeah yeah, unfortunately yeah, yeah, it's with what happened Yeah, yeah, 4900 04:37:51,960 --> 04:37:55,840 Speaker 1: that is extra extra the whole time, what happened in 4901 04:37:55,960 --> 04:38:04,360 Speaker 1: the past week. Yeah, yeah, that is a it sucks mhm. 4902 04:38:06,480 --> 04:38:10,920 Speaker 1: If people want to find more of your work, or 4903 04:38:11,000 --> 04:38:16,600 Speaker 1: if there's anything you'd like to plug, now is the time, okay. UM. 4904 04:38:17,000 --> 04:38:20,880 Speaker 1: I have a website. It's called where is here dot 4905 04:38:20,960 --> 04:38:27,120 Speaker 1: c a UM and I have jeez links to a 4906 04:38:27,160 --> 04:38:29,280 Speaker 1: bunch of my different short stories there. I have a 4907 04:38:29,440 --> 04:38:32,000 Speaker 1: novella coming out next year. A few years ago I 4908 04:38:32,040 --> 04:38:36,280 Speaker 1: put relished a novel UM. But if you're interested in 4909 04:38:36,880 --> 04:38:39,759 Speaker 1: the climate change stuff, there's probably one I'd recommend called 4910 04:38:40,440 --> 04:38:43,879 Speaker 1: UM an Important Failure that was in Clark's World. It's 4911 04:38:43,880 --> 04:38:47,280 Speaker 1: available to read online. It's been translated into Polish. It's 4912 04:38:47,280 --> 04:38:50,240 Speaker 1: in a couple of different collections. UM. And if I'm 4913 04:38:50,240 --> 04:38:56,800 Speaker 1: allowed to brag, which it won the the the Sturgeon 4914 04:38:56,800 --> 04:39:01,919 Speaker 1: Award last year, which is a science fiction award handed 4915 04:39:01,960 --> 04:39:05,720 Speaker 1: out by UM, an academic organization in the US. SO 4916 04:39:06,560 --> 04:39:08,640 Speaker 1: and it's about it's about climate change. It's all set 4917 04:39:08,680 --> 04:39:13,240 Speaker 1: on Vancouver Island. In Vancouver. I've heard you. I've heard 4918 04:39:13,280 --> 04:39:18,640 Speaker 1: you also have stories about ghosts. Yes, I have a 4919 04:39:18,840 --> 04:39:23,160 Speaker 1: genre I'm trying to establish that I call obstetrical horror 4920 04:39:23,520 --> 04:39:27,559 Speaker 1: that I started writing when I was pregnant. Yeah, giving 4921 04:39:27,680 --> 04:39:31,280 Speaker 1: birth is just such body horror. So ghosts, childbirth, all 4922 04:39:31,360 --> 04:39:34,440 Speaker 1: that stuff. Yeah, I read a lot about ghosts as well. 4923 04:39:34,480 --> 04:39:35,720 Speaker 1: You can find, like I say, a lot of that 4924 04:39:35,759 --> 04:39:38,559 Speaker 1: stuffs on my website and links to anything that's available 4925 04:39:38,600 --> 04:39:40,640 Speaker 1: for free online. So yeah, where is here? Dot c 4926 04:39:40,800 --> 04:39:44,840 Speaker 1: A and I'm on Twitter a um at Canadianist, but 4927 04:39:45,480 --> 04:39:48,160 Speaker 1: I don't really use it that much. So I am 4928 04:39:48,240 --> 04:39:54,640 Speaker 1: excited for the combination of climate change fiction with horror fiction. UM. 4929 04:39:54,880 --> 04:39:57,919 Speaker 1: And by excited, it's like half half actually excited, half 4930 04:39:58,680 --> 04:40:01,680 Speaker 1: dreading because a lot of it's gonna probably be horrible 4931 04:40:01,960 --> 04:40:04,480 Speaker 1: in terms of people being like, you know, what's scary 4932 04:40:04,960 --> 04:40:10,440 Speaker 1: climates change and you're like, okay, but yeah, but oh sorry, 4933 04:40:10,480 --> 04:40:12,680 Speaker 1: go on. I don't know, but I think there definitely 4934 04:40:12,840 --> 04:40:16,400 Speaker 1: is a good way to combine the the exsential elements 4935 04:40:16,440 --> 04:40:18,680 Speaker 1: of both of those things to something that actually is 4936 04:40:18,800 --> 04:40:22,080 Speaker 1: really impactful, that plays on human fears and emotions and 4937 04:40:22,160 --> 04:40:24,800 Speaker 1: how we can get over those fears and move towards 4938 04:40:24,919 --> 04:40:29,320 Speaker 1: something useful. Yeah. And it's also that horror going back 4939 04:40:29,520 --> 04:40:31,800 Speaker 1: for well, however long you want to, we've been telling 4940 04:40:31,880 --> 04:40:34,240 Speaker 1: stories has given us a series of structures to kind 4941 04:40:34,240 --> 04:40:38,720 Speaker 1: of process that. UM. And I think that's really valuable 4942 04:40:38,800 --> 04:40:41,080 Speaker 1: that their patterns we can use to work through. And 4943 04:40:41,160 --> 04:40:43,800 Speaker 1: I mean writing climate change fiction for me, I just 4944 04:40:43,880 --> 04:40:48,239 Speaker 1: finished another novella UM that's specifically about like near future 4945 04:40:48,280 --> 04:40:52,360 Speaker 1: stuff and about the wildfires a lot um. But you know, 4946 04:40:52,560 --> 04:40:54,600 Speaker 1: having a story to tell about it as a way 4947 04:40:54,600 --> 04:40:57,360 Speaker 1: of processing all the research I was doing, UM was 4948 04:40:57,640 --> 04:41:02,039 Speaker 1: really valuables. It's super useful. Yeah, and just um, I mean, 4949 04:41:02,080 --> 04:41:03,640 Speaker 1: you can call it therapeutic if you want, But I 4950 04:41:03,680 --> 04:41:05,720 Speaker 1: don't think it's that. I think it's organizing information in 4951 04:41:05,800 --> 04:41:08,560 Speaker 1: your head that is just simply too large for you 4952 04:41:08,640 --> 04:41:12,320 Speaker 1: to actually grasp. I mean, I can't actually grasp this stuff. 4953 04:41:12,360 --> 04:41:15,199 Speaker 1: But no, you can't. It's it's too bad. Yeah, exactly 4954 04:41:15,320 --> 04:41:20,879 Speaker 1: exactly trying to mean, Yeah, horror does that probably better 4955 04:41:20,919 --> 04:41:24,200 Speaker 1: than almost any other genre. Yeah. I mean, look what 4956 04:41:24,320 --> 04:41:29,360 Speaker 1: it horror does with adolescent anxieties or um, you know, 4957 04:41:29,600 --> 04:41:31,400 Speaker 1: all sorts of different the fear of dying, the fear 4958 04:41:31,400 --> 04:41:34,360 Speaker 1: of aging, if your illness, and stuff like that. So yeah, 4959 04:41:34,400 --> 04:41:37,040 Speaker 1: I think we have structures in place with horror fiction, 4960 04:41:38,000 --> 04:41:41,240 Speaker 1: um and with sort of science fiction horror that kind 4961 04:41:41,280 --> 04:41:43,840 Speaker 1: of are gonna let us start to process things that 4962 04:41:43,880 --> 04:41:47,680 Speaker 1: are otherwise just too intellectual or not intellectual. But to 4963 04:41:47,880 --> 04:41:50,600 Speaker 1: abstract it's too it's too. Yeah, abstractors, I think is 4964 04:41:50,640 --> 04:41:53,280 Speaker 1: the right term, because I mean, like, I guess my 4965 04:41:53,440 --> 04:41:56,640 Speaker 1: fear of that is that, like climate change fiction is 4966 04:41:56,680 --> 04:42:00,440 Speaker 1: just gonna resort to like the disaster story and it 4967 04:42:00,520 --> 04:42:04,840 Speaker 1: has very like glamorized weird versions of like apocalypses and 4968 04:42:04,960 --> 04:42:11,040 Speaker 1: disasters and like collapse and very like big ways that 4969 04:42:11,120 --> 04:42:14,240 Speaker 1: impact everything around you. When in actuality, the effects that 4970 04:42:14,280 --> 04:42:17,560 Speaker 1: they have are very localized and small and are still horrifying, 4971 04:42:18,000 --> 04:42:21,239 Speaker 1: but the way that they're framed is always frustrating. In films, 4972 04:42:21,280 --> 04:42:22,760 Speaker 1: and you look at like, you know, a typical like 4973 04:42:22,919 --> 04:42:27,600 Speaker 1: you know, like apocalypse themed movie, I think is I'm 4974 04:42:27,640 --> 04:42:32,000 Speaker 1: afraid that the bigger you know, if you turn turn 4975 04:42:32,360 --> 04:42:34,760 Speaker 1: talking about like big movies, how it's going to frame 4976 04:42:34,840 --> 04:42:37,480 Speaker 1: it that way instead of these more kind of personal 4977 04:42:37,560 --> 04:42:40,120 Speaker 1: stories of like the horror of being trapped inside a 4978 04:42:40,200 --> 04:42:43,040 Speaker 1: warehouse as a tornado comes and you're not allowed to leave, 4979 04:42:43,280 --> 04:42:47,360 Speaker 1: which is a way more horrifying than Oh, look, all 4980 04:42:47,440 --> 04:42:50,840 Speaker 1: of New York City is crumbling because of this pseudami, 4981 04:42:51,120 --> 04:42:54,040 Speaker 1: which is so big and like possible, I guess, but 4982 04:42:54,160 --> 04:42:57,080 Speaker 1: like that's so big you can't feel that. And what's 4983 04:42:57,120 --> 04:42:59,520 Speaker 1: more like going to happen is people getting trapped in 4984 04:42:59,560 --> 04:43:02,680 Speaker 1: buildings and not being allowed to leave. And that's that's like, 4985 04:43:03,040 --> 04:43:06,680 Speaker 1: that's actual horner. Yeah, and it's intimate too, write like 4986 04:43:06,800 --> 04:43:09,880 Speaker 1: it's not it's not in distant idea. It's intimate. It's 4987 04:43:09,919 --> 04:43:13,399 Speaker 1: the particular consequence of something for a community, for an individual, 4988 04:43:13,480 --> 04:43:17,280 Speaker 1: for relationships. And if I can go on on this um, 4989 04:43:17,440 --> 04:43:20,760 Speaker 1: there's an entire genre of apocalyptic fiction that kind of 4990 04:43:20,800 --> 04:43:23,160 Speaker 1: comes out of the early Cold War, and they're always 4991 04:43:23,240 --> 04:43:27,880 Speaker 1: these weirdly cozy apocalypse is where one white guy survives 4992 04:43:28,560 --> 04:43:31,520 Speaker 1: and in the new world he builds this kind of 4993 04:43:31,720 --> 04:43:35,160 Speaker 1: feudal fantasy. So I've actually this one fills the last 4994 04:43:35,280 --> 04:43:38,919 Speaker 1: Babylon where a character says, of these two spinster ladies 4995 04:43:39,000 --> 04:43:42,399 Speaker 1: that were miserable before the nuclear war, after the nuclear war, 4996 04:43:42,440 --> 04:43:45,160 Speaker 1: they're really happy because their lives have meaning now. And 4997 04:43:45,440 --> 04:43:48,680 Speaker 1: it's this, it's those are the apocalyptic stories that we've had. 4998 04:43:48,759 --> 04:43:50,919 Speaker 1: We need a new kind of story, a new kind 4999 04:43:50,960 --> 04:43:53,640 Speaker 1: of horror that I think, um that does exactly what 5000 04:43:53,720 --> 04:43:57,000 Speaker 1: you're talking about, that doesn't default to that weird heroism 5001 04:43:57,200 --> 04:44:01,760 Speaker 1: and one guy surviving kind of thing. There's a wonderful 5002 04:44:01,840 --> 04:44:05,480 Speaker 1: Corey doctor short story that that I think pivots off 5003 04:44:05,560 --> 04:44:10,440 Speaker 1: that idea nicely. Um in his his book, uh, what 5004 04:44:10,640 --> 04:44:16,720 Speaker 1: is Unauthorized Toast? I think Bread an authorized Bread is 5005 04:44:16,759 --> 04:44:18,720 Speaker 1: one of the stories in it. But the book is 5006 04:44:18,960 --> 04:44:21,640 Speaker 1: as a different it's a collection of his short stories. 5007 04:44:21,680 --> 04:44:24,920 Speaker 1: But there's um a post apocalyptic story that kind of 5008 04:44:25,000 --> 04:44:28,120 Speaker 1: follows a bunch of tech bros trying to do the 5009 04:44:28,200 --> 04:44:32,280 Speaker 1: traditional like survive the The apocalypse makes everything you know 5010 04:44:32,759 --> 04:44:34,480 Speaker 1: better for me, I get to be a cool warlord 5011 04:44:34,560 --> 04:44:39,760 Speaker 1: thing and it's it's good. It doesn't end well for them. Um. Yeah, 5012 04:44:39,880 --> 04:44:43,480 Speaker 1: I I think the I think the thing that is 5013 04:44:43,520 --> 04:44:47,480 Speaker 1: important to do is like focus on the horror of 5014 04:44:48,200 --> 04:44:50,680 Speaker 1: the little things, like the little things on like a 5015 04:44:50,720 --> 04:44:52,960 Speaker 1: global scale, Like, like the thing that is so frightening 5016 04:44:52,960 --> 04:44:57,040 Speaker 1: about climate change is that all of these the terrible 5017 04:44:57,080 --> 04:44:59,640 Speaker 1: things it's bringing are going to hit the same way 5018 04:44:59,720 --> 04:45:02,440 Speaker 1: mash shootings do, where it is a calamity for a 5019 04:45:02,520 --> 04:45:07,760 Speaker 1: community and people fifty miles away try to pretend it 5020 04:45:07,840 --> 04:45:12,040 Speaker 1: didn't happen and get to doing like their their daily stuff. 5021 04:45:12,080 --> 04:45:15,480 Speaker 1: Like that's what's that's what's so scary about it. It's 5022 04:45:15,520 --> 04:45:17,919 Speaker 1: not like you said, it's not the buildings in New 5023 04:45:18,000 --> 04:45:20,759 Speaker 1: York collapsing from a tidal wave. It's the birds stop 5024 04:45:20,800 --> 04:45:22,919 Speaker 1: singing and you still have to go to work. I'm 5025 04:45:23,360 --> 04:45:25,840 Speaker 1: I'm I'm writing a script right now for probably the 5026 04:45:25,960 --> 04:45:29,720 Speaker 1: show about how climate change is hard to think about 5027 04:45:29,720 --> 04:45:32,440 Speaker 1: because it's because how how big it is. And one 5028 04:45:32,520 --> 04:45:35,160 Speaker 1: of like the models that I'm trying to draw a 5029 04:45:35,200 --> 04:45:38,200 Speaker 1: comparison from this, Like it's almost like climate changes is 5030 04:45:38,320 --> 04:45:40,720 Speaker 1: like a type is like a type of Cathulhu in 5031 04:45:40,880 --> 04:45:44,640 Speaker 1: terms of the way it affects you, but you'll probably 5032 04:45:44,759 --> 04:45:47,440 Speaker 1: get by it's it can affect your neighbors, and you 5033 04:45:47,480 --> 04:45:49,960 Speaker 1: can watch it and you can watch it have other people, 5034 04:45:50,280 --> 04:45:53,040 Speaker 1: but like it doesn't mean that your life is going 5035 04:45:53,080 --> 04:45:55,240 Speaker 1: to end this way because it's so it's so big 5036 04:45:55,320 --> 04:45:58,000 Speaker 1: and uncaring. It can attack so many places at once, 5037 04:45:58,680 --> 04:46:02,400 Speaker 1: but you don't know how like how big this effects 5038 04:46:02,440 --> 04:46:06,200 Speaker 1: are and how and what what what what the scale 5039 04:46:06,240 --> 04:46:08,800 Speaker 1: of them will be on your local area. So it's 5040 04:46:08,840 --> 04:46:11,239 Speaker 1: like this, it's this thing that is way more existential 5041 04:46:11,280 --> 04:46:14,160 Speaker 1: than anything else because it it does not, it does 5042 04:46:14,200 --> 04:46:17,000 Speaker 1: not care, it has it has no morality. It's it's 5043 04:46:17,040 --> 04:46:19,919 Speaker 1: not it's not out to get you specifically. It's this weird, 5044 04:46:20,960 --> 04:46:23,440 Speaker 1: this weird thing that's just getting imposed upon us now. 5045 04:46:24,080 --> 04:46:27,120 Speaker 1: And that type of horror in fiction, I think is 5046 04:46:27,360 --> 04:46:29,520 Speaker 1: something that at least I want to explore in my 5047 04:46:29,600 --> 04:46:31,680 Speaker 1: next few years of writing. And I'm excited to read 5048 04:46:31,720 --> 04:46:35,120 Speaker 1: other people's work who kind of covered that similar side 5049 04:46:35,160 --> 04:46:39,320 Speaker 1: of horror and combining with like climate change and the 5050 04:46:39,800 --> 04:46:43,120 Speaker 1: small ways it's going to start affecting us in places 5051 04:46:43,480 --> 04:46:49,199 Speaker 1: around the world. I think, Um, that what you said 5052 04:46:49,440 --> 04:46:51,960 Speaker 1: and isn't isn't there someone who talks about the Catholic scene, 5053 04:46:53,120 --> 04:46:58,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, that's Donna Harroway. Donna Harroway, that's it. Yeah. Um, 5054 04:46:59,000 --> 04:47:02,480 Speaker 1: But but also just how weak some of our previous narratives, 5055 04:47:02,520 --> 04:47:06,960 Speaker 1: like you can't you can't bring in you new Judeo 5056 04:47:07,080 --> 04:47:10,080 Speaker 1: Christian apocalypse is to this kind of thing, because we can't. 5057 04:47:10,160 --> 04:47:12,040 Speaker 1: There's not you can't. We can't have that kind of 5058 04:47:12,120 --> 04:47:15,600 Speaker 1: moralizing in it um that we need. And that's honestly, 5059 04:47:15,640 --> 04:47:19,320 Speaker 1: Cathulo is really handy for that cosmic horror because it 5060 04:47:19,400 --> 04:47:21,320 Speaker 1: forces you to, as you say, face something on an 5061 04:47:21,360 --> 04:47:24,640 Speaker 1: existential level. Um that how you feel and who you 5062 04:47:24,720 --> 04:47:28,399 Speaker 1: are and your individual experience does not matter. So it's 5063 04:47:28,440 --> 04:47:30,759 Speaker 1: like a lot of people, like you know us, we're 5064 04:47:30,800 --> 04:47:34,080 Speaker 1: watching what's happening in Kansas right now, and like, I'm 5065 04:47:34,120 --> 04:47:36,960 Speaker 1: not in Kansas. I don't know anyone in Kansas. I'm 5066 04:47:37,040 --> 04:47:40,240 Speaker 1: looking at this calamity and it's so distant from me, 5067 04:47:40,759 --> 04:47:43,720 Speaker 1: but yet it's also very close. And that's a weird 5068 04:47:44,120 --> 04:47:48,160 Speaker 1: feeling to deal with. UM. And I can see, oh yeah, 5069 04:47:48,280 --> 04:47:52,520 Speaker 1: corporations are contributing to this specifically like climate change as 5070 04:47:52,600 --> 04:47:55,400 Speaker 1: in general, but like like Amazon trapping people inside inside 5071 04:47:55,440 --> 04:47:58,600 Speaker 1: inside these warehouses. It's like, I can there's ways to 5072 04:47:58,720 --> 04:48:02,480 Speaker 1: fight extensions of this, but you can't fight it. You 5073 04:48:02,560 --> 04:48:06,320 Speaker 1: can only fight its extensions. And that's and yeah, it's 5074 04:48:06,360 --> 04:48:08,760 Speaker 1: it's it's a super it's a super interesting thing that 5075 04:48:08,880 --> 04:48:12,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I think, Yeah, we we are going to 5076 04:48:12,440 --> 04:48:14,559 Speaker 1: see you know this, this idea get dealt with more 5077 04:48:14,600 --> 04:48:17,640 Speaker 1: and more as these things start happening more and more. 5078 04:48:18,320 --> 04:48:22,280 Speaker 1: Um and yeah, I mean climate change, cosmic corps maybe 5079 04:48:23,080 --> 04:48:28,240 Speaker 1: maybe the way to go. Yeah, yeah, I think that's 5080 04:48:28,440 --> 04:48:31,320 Speaker 1: I think that's a good line to end on, or 5081 04:48:31,320 --> 04:48:33,680 Speaker 1: at least a good thought to end on. Well, thank 5082 04:48:33,720 --> 04:48:36,759 Speaker 1: you so much, Rebecca for coming on and sharing your story. 5083 04:48:37,360 --> 04:48:39,840 Speaker 1: Would you mind plugging your website one last time since 5084 04:48:39,880 --> 04:48:44,160 Speaker 1: we extra like fifteen minutes. Oh no, no, no, no, 5085 04:48:44,560 --> 04:48:50,720 Speaker 1: that's that's the reason people may not have noted it 5086 04:48:50,840 --> 04:48:54,280 Speaker 1: last time before the conversation. We should give him another chance. Okay, 5087 04:48:54,440 --> 04:48:57,360 Speaker 1: so the website is where is here dot c A 5088 04:48:58,320 --> 04:49:01,480 Speaker 1: so w H E er I s H e r 5089 04:49:01,560 --> 04:49:05,240 Speaker 1: E dot c A excellent. All right, Well, thank you 5090 04:49:05,480 --> 04:49:11,520 Speaker 1: very much, Rebecca. Um, until next time, everybody lose your 5091 04:49:11,560 --> 04:49:16,320 Speaker 1: mind with the cosmic horror, something something, anything, any kind 5092 04:49:16,360 --> 04:49:20,000 Speaker 1: of cosmic harror that cons to to your your mind 5093 04:49:20,160 --> 04:49:23,640 Speaker 1: to scramble and you to begin worshiping in the dark 5094 04:49:23,680 --> 04:49:26,360 Speaker 1: corners of the world. Any anything that does that is good. 5095 04:49:26,560 --> 04:49:29,320 Speaker 1: So well, thank you so much for having me. It's 5096 04:49:29,320 --> 04:49:46,080 Speaker 1: an absolute pleasure, very very happy to have you. When P. T. 5097 04:49:46,200 --> 04:49:49,160 Speaker 1: Barnum's Great American Museum burned to the ground in eighteen 5098 04:49:49,240 --> 04:49:52,480 Speaker 1: sixty five, what rose from its ashes would change the world. 5099 04:49:53,280 --> 04:49:56,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Grim and Mild Presents, an ongoing journey into 5100 04:49:56,840 --> 04:50:01,320 Speaker 1: the strange, the unusual, and the fascinating. Where our inaugural season, 5101 04:50:01,360 --> 04:50:03,759 Speaker 1: we'll be giving you a backstage tour of the always 5102 04:50:03,880 --> 04:50:08,600 Speaker 1: complex and often misunderstood cultural artifact that is the American 5103 04:50:08,720 --> 04:50:11,440 Speaker 1: Side Show. So come along as we visit the shadowy 5104 04:50:11,520 --> 04:50:14,160 Speaker 1: corners of the stage and learn about the people who 5105 04:50:14,240 --> 04:50:16,360 Speaker 1: were at the center of it all in a place 5106 04:50:16,400 --> 04:50:20,200 Speaker 1: where spectacle was king. We will soon discover there's always 5107 04:50:20,280 --> 04:50:23,240 Speaker 1: more to the story than meets the eye, So step 5108 04:50:23,400 --> 04:50:26,480 Speaker 1: right up and get in line. Listen to Grim and 5109 04:50:26,520 --> 04:50:29,880 Speaker 1: Mile Presents now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 5110 04:50:30,000 --> 04:50:33,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more over at 5111 04:50:33,600 --> 04:50:43,919 Speaker 1: Grimm and Mild dot com Slash presents It could happen 5112 04:50:44,000 --> 04:50:50,160 Speaker 1: here to Welcome the Evans Robert podcast. End of the 5113 04:50:50,240 --> 04:50:53,960 Speaker 1: World at the beginning of news. Yeah, I think we 5114 04:50:54,040 --> 04:50:59,680 Speaker 1: did it right. Evans Evans, Evans Robert, who's here with us? Uh? 5115 04:50:59,800 --> 04:51:03,480 Speaker 1: That would be kill Joy, Margaret and Victorman Sophie. I 5116 04:51:03,560 --> 04:51:07,400 Speaker 1: like this MS Keeping Victim and Comma Sophie kill Joy, 5117 04:51:07,440 --> 04:51:13,360 Speaker 1: Comma Margaret, Um Margaret Commas. I could also Attorney's general 5118 04:51:13,480 --> 04:51:20,680 Speaker 1: you kill Joy's Margaret. One of my hobbies is anytime 5119 04:51:20,720 --> 04:51:25,320 Speaker 1: I pluralize something, attorneys generally it Um, Margaret, how are you? 5120 04:51:25,400 --> 04:51:30,960 Speaker 1: How are you doing on this beautiful December day. I'm good. 5121 04:51:31,000 --> 04:51:33,320 Speaker 1: I just got my booster shot and the negative effects 5122 04:51:33,360 --> 04:51:36,520 Speaker 1: haven't kicked in yet. That's good. Um. How does it 5123 04:51:36,680 --> 04:51:39,440 Speaker 1: feel to have, like as your internet sped up now 5124 04:51:39,520 --> 04:51:41,800 Speaker 1: that I have a boost? Yeah, I'm making the same 5125 04:51:41,919 --> 04:51:46,920 Speaker 1: fighting that everybody makes, because it's easier than thinking about 5126 04:51:46,960 --> 04:51:49,400 Speaker 1: the fact that, oh, Macron looks like it's going to 5127 04:51:49,480 --> 04:51:52,520 Speaker 1: be a real, real nightmare and the world's never going 5128 04:51:52,560 --> 04:51:55,800 Speaker 1: to go back to you know, it's not going back 5129 04:51:55,840 --> 04:51:58,320 Speaker 1: to normal. I miss It's it's being able to walk 5130 04:51:58,400 --> 04:52:00,880 Speaker 1: into a bar and not worry that I was going 5131 04:52:01,000 --> 04:52:06,360 Speaker 1: to catch a new variant of a plague. Yeah that's 5132 04:52:06,400 --> 04:52:12,160 Speaker 1: a yeah. Yeah, how are you doing with the plague? 5133 04:52:13,800 --> 04:52:18,800 Speaker 1: I live completely alone and isolated, so which I you know, 5134 04:52:19,080 --> 04:52:20,600 Speaker 1: I'm not sure this is how I would have built 5135 04:52:20,600 --> 04:52:24,040 Speaker 1: my life if I hadn't done it during a plague. Yeah, 5136 04:52:24,440 --> 04:52:27,440 Speaker 1: I mean, well, I dream about interacting with humans. Yeah, 5137 04:52:27,800 --> 04:52:32,000 Speaker 1: just like hugging a person that that you don't know 5138 04:52:32,240 --> 04:52:36,000 Speaker 1: all that well and it not being like involving both 5139 04:52:36,040 --> 04:52:40,079 Speaker 1: of you risking your life. It's like a blood pact. Yes, 5140 04:52:40,400 --> 04:52:45,360 Speaker 1: we're going, Doug, and if we wind up in how 5141 04:52:45,720 --> 04:52:51,800 Speaker 1: we'll scream at Satan together. Come U, you have written 5142 04:52:51,840 --> 04:52:54,160 Speaker 1: another story. I mean you wrote this a while ago, 5143 04:52:54,240 --> 04:52:55,640 Speaker 1: as you did with the last one. But we're doing 5144 04:52:55,759 --> 04:52:57,480 Speaker 1: We decided we one of the things we wanted to 5145 04:52:57,480 --> 04:52:59,400 Speaker 1: do to close this year out was a little bit 5146 04:52:59,480 --> 04:53:05,080 Speaker 1: more fiction, because fiction, I think plays an underappreciated role 5147 04:53:05,320 --> 04:53:13,760 Speaker 1: in revolutionary practice in kind of every aspect of being 5148 04:53:13,880 --> 04:53:17,079 Speaker 1: someone who envisions the different world. Um. So we we've 5149 04:53:17,080 --> 04:53:18,960 Speaker 1: always I mean, it could happen here. From the beginning, 5150 04:53:19,000 --> 04:53:23,160 Speaker 1: there was always a strong kind of um uh focus 5151 04:53:23,360 --> 04:53:27,440 Speaker 1: on fiction. Um. And I'm really happy to be presenting 5152 04:53:27,480 --> 04:53:31,680 Speaker 1: another one of your stories today. Thanks. You want to 5153 04:53:32,880 --> 04:53:36,200 Speaker 1: introduced this piece, sure. This piece is called The Free 5154 04:53:36,240 --> 04:53:39,320 Speaker 1: Yorks of Cascadia. It was first published in Fantasy and 5155 04:53:39,360 --> 04:53:42,080 Speaker 1: Science Fiction, which is the name of a magazine. And 5156 04:53:42,160 --> 04:53:44,480 Speaker 1: this one was also really important to me. Because Fantasy 5157 04:53:44,520 --> 04:53:46,160 Speaker 1: and Science Fiction F and s F was one of 5158 04:53:46,240 --> 04:53:48,880 Speaker 1: the magazines that my my dad had a subscription to. Yeah, 5159 04:53:48,919 --> 04:53:51,800 Speaker 1: they go this a while. Yeah, this was a very 5160 04:53:51,960 --> 04:53:55,880 Speaker 1: um um and it was a very important piece for 5161 04:53:55,960 --> 04:54:01,240 Speaker 1: me that it got published there. Yeah, that's awesome. Um well, 5162 04:54:01,560 --> 04:54:05,840 Speaker 1: let's uh, let's let's let's take a take a hop 5163 04:54:05,919 --> 04:54:11,640 Speaker 1: in a publicly funded bus and roll down to Storytown. 5164 04:54:12,440 --> 04:54:16,840 Speaker 1: Speaking of taking one's life in one's hands. The story 5165 04:54:16,880 --> 04:54:20,400 Speaker 1: is called The Free Orcs of Cascadia. You all know 5166 04:54:20,480 --> 04:54:23,040 Speaker 1: the first part of the story. The song ended in blood. 5167 04:54:23,560 --> 04:54:26,240 Speaker 1: It was two years ago in the summer. Rick Green, 5168 04:54:26,400 --> 04:54:29,720 Speaker 1: the singer of Goblin Forest, crooned in his osbornesque voice 5169 04:54:29,759 --> 04:54:33,440 Speaker 1: to fifteen thousand Goblin metal fans. A short man wearing 5170 04:54:33,480 --> 04:54:36,359 Speaker 1: green body paint and brown leather, stepped out from backstage, 5171 04:54:36,759 --> 04:54:39,360 Speaker 1: drew a sword and cut the singer down from behind. 5172 04:54:40,000 --> 04:54:43,000 Speaker 1: The last lyrics Green ever sang were take me Back, 5173 04:54:43,240 --> 04:54:45,719 Speaker 1: take me Back, take me back to the Misty Mountains. 5174 04:54:46,960 --> 04:54:49,000 Speaker 1: The man with the sword, of course, was Golfin Bull, 5175 04:54:49,400 --> 04:54:52,480 Speaker 1: the rhythm guitarist for Crumpatool. The opening act. He and 5176 04:54:52,560 --> 04:54:55,360 Speaker 1: his bandmates escaped in the ensuing chaos and remain at Large. 5177 04:54:55,440 --> 04:54:58,960 Speaker 1: To this day, neither band has released a song or 5178 04:54:59,040 --> 04:55:02,080 Speaker 1: played a show since the rest of Goblin Forests decided 5179 04:55:02,080 --> 04:55:05,040 Speaker 1: to call it quits. Without Green and crimp Atool, no 5180 04:55:05,160 --> 04:55:08,640 Speaker 1: one knew what happened to Crimpatool. Fans deserted the genre 5181 04:55:08,680 --> 04:55:11,440 Speaker 1: and droves, and overnight Goblin Medal went from stadium rock 5182 04:55:11,520 --> 04:55:14,239 Speaker 1: fad to a niche interest of the obscure Canadian orc 5183 04:55:14,360 --> 04:55:17,880 Speaker 1: cults were originated. It was no longer hip to be Green. 5184 04:55:18,919 --> 04:55:20,520 Speaker 1: If Golf and Bull had been trying to take the 5185 04:55:20,600 --> 04:55:25,680 Speaker 1: Goblin Medal throne, as it were, he failed spectacularly. Rumors 5186 04:55:25,720 --> 04:55:28,840 Speaker 1: have flown about motives and locations, but there have been 5187 04:55:28,880 --> 04:55:31,879 Speaker 1: no arrests and no public statement from the band. All 5188 04:55:31,960 --> 04:55:36,640 Speaker 1: we've had to work with were rumors until now. Earlier 5189 04:55:36,720 --> 04:55:40,360 Speaker 1: this month, Orc Folk act Ulsith listed Golf and Bull 5190 04:55:40,400 --> 04:55:42,520 Speaker 1: as the harpist in their liner notes of the single 5191 04:55:42,919 --> 04:55:46,200 Speaker 1: The Gray Fog of a Ruined Forest lst was as 5192 04:55:46,240 --> 04:55:49,640 Speaker 1: obscure as Crimpatool was infamous. The band had never done 5193 04:55:49,680 --> 04:55:52,920 Speaker 1: an interview, not even a photo shoot. Like everyone else 5194 04:55:53,040 --> 04:55:57,359 Speaker 1: these days in countercultural music, their videos featured only masked performers. 5195 04:55:59,040 --> 04:56:01,840 Speaker 1: I've been casually used with post civilization culture ever since 5196 04:56:01,880 --> 04:56:04,240 Speaker 1: the Communicate from the Junkyard Rats of the Rust Belt, 5197 04:56:05,040 --> 04:56:07,440 Speaker 1: and I've been covering music of pretty much every secessionist 5198 04:56:07,520 --> 04:56:10,000 Speaker 1: movement and subculture I could sink my teeth into. Since 5199 04:56:10,919 --> 04:56:13,120 Speaker 1: after I saw those liner notes, I put out feelers 5200 04:56:13,160 --> 04:56:15,200 Speaker 1: to friends and friends of friends, and I waited, and 5201 04:56:15,360 --> 04:56:17,280 Speaker 1: last week I was invited to go to an orc 5202 04:56:17,440 --> 04:56:21,680 Speaker 1: village hidden away in the burned forests of Cascadia. I 5203 04:56:21,800 --> 04:56:23,760 Speaker 1: was invited to be the first person to tell Golf 5204 04:56:23,800 --> 04:56:28,160 Speaker 1: and Bull's story hell Fire Harriet Exclusive. Usually I post 5205 04:56:28,240 --> 04:56:30,680 Speaker 1: full interviews for everyone, but reserve my travel diary for 5206 04:56:30,720 --> 04:56:33,280 Speaker 1: the patrons of my blog. This time, though, I'm foregoing 5207 04:56:33,360 --> 04:56:35,880 Speaker 1: that this story is too important, so I've interspersed to 5208 04:56:35,960 --> 04:56:39,080 Speaker 1: the two below. All I knew before I went with 5209 04:56:39,280 --> 04:56:42,040 Speaker 1: what everyone else knew. Three years ago, a bunch of 5210 04:56:42,080 --> 04:56:44,800 Speaker 1: metal heads and hippies and burners and nerds all decided 5211 04:56:44,840 --> 04:56:47,360 Speaker 1: to dress up like orcs and goblins, and some of 5212 04:56:47,440 --> 04:56:49,920 Speaker 1: them took it too far and decided to distance themselves 5213 04:56:50,000 --> 04:56:53,840 Speaker 1: from the rest of society. They got really famous one summer. 5214 04:56:54,040 --> 04:56:56,680 Speaker 1: Then that fame died in a single bloody act, and 5215 04:56:56,880 --> 04:56:58,960 Speaker 1: who knows what kind of weird ship they're up to. Now, 5216 04:57:00,200 --> 04:57:02,400 Speaker 1: before you get worried, no, I will never offer a 5217 04:57:02,440 --> 04:57:05,520 Speaker 1: platform to a fascist fascist. Fascism, as it turns out, 5218 04:57:05,680 --> 04:57:08,120 Speaker 1: is the furthest thing from golf and Ball's mind. What 5219 04:57:08,280 --> 04:57:12,160 Speaker 1: he's into is a lot weirder than that. Still, it's 5220 04:57:12,200 --> 04:57:14,320 Speaker 1: sort of lucky that I survived to write this story. 5221 04:57:16,600 --> 04:57:20,040 Speaker 1: So you killed a guy, Yeah, I killed a guy. 5222 04:57:21,360 --> 04:57:23,400 Speaker 1: We stared in silence at one another for a while. 5223 04:57:23,759 --> 04:57:26,000 Speaker 1: He wore rawhide and fur, and not much of either. 5224 04:57:26,440 --> 04:57:28,280 Speaker 1: He wasn't painted up, but his skin was sort of 5225 04:57:28,400 --> 04:57:31,680 Speaker 1: natural olive. His lower teeth were filed down to fangs. 5226 04:57:31,759 --> 04:57:35,199 Speaker 1: Like any serious works, there was still something unassuming about 5227 04:57:35,280 --> 04:57:39,400 Speaker 1: him that I have a hard time describing. You're waiting 5228 04:57:39,440 --> 04:57:41,800 Speaker 1: for me to tell you about it, aren't you. The 5229 04:57:41,880 --> 04:57:45,200 Speaker 1: interview was not off to a good start. Are you 5230 04:57:45,280 --> 04:57:48,520 Speaker 1: worried about how your words will sound in court? I 5231 04:57:48,680 --> 04:57:51,200 Speaker 1: killed Rick Green on stage with a sword in front 5232 04:57:51,240 --> 04:57:54,040 Speaker 1: of thousands of witnesses. Talking to the media isn't going 5233 04:57:54,080 --> 04:57:56,200 Speaker 1: to make anything worse for me at this point, and 5234 04:57:56,280 --> 04:57:58,360 Speaker 1: I don't respect the authority of the U. S. Government 5235 04:57:58,400 --> 04:58:00,720 Speaker 1: to hold me accountable for my actions. I will not 5236 04:58:00,919 --> 04:58:04,480 Speaker 1: go to court, So why do you do it. The 5237 04:58:04,600 --> 04:58:08,399 Speaker 1: old world is dying. My world, the Free Orcs of Cascadia. 5238 04:58:08,600 --> 04:58:10,680 Speaker 1: We're not going to replace the old world, but we 5239 04:58:10,759 --> 04:58:13,400 Speaker 1: will be part of its replacement. In order to do that, 5240 04:58:13,600 --> 04:58:16,440 Speaker 1: we have to take ourselves seriously. An element of that 5241 04:58:16,560 --> 04:58:19,160 Speaker 1: struggle is the struggle to create meaning, to create a 5242 04:58:19,200 --> 04:58:22,640 Speaker 1: new sacred. I killed Rick Green because he was defiling 5243 04:58:22,800 --> 04:58:27,880 Speaker 1: something mint to be sacred. How so we share an aesthetic, 5244 04:58:28,120 --> 04:58:30,600 Speaker 1: But he didn't understand what it meant to be an orc. 5245 04:58:31,960 --> 04:58:34,920 Speaker 1: You killed him because he was a poser. I guess 5246 04:58:34,960 --> 04:58:38,680 Speaker 1: you could put it like that. So the lesson here is, 5247 04:58:39,200 --> 04:58:43,759 Speaker 1: don't be a poser. Don't be a poser. You heard 5248 04:58:43,800 --> 04:58:46,240 Speaker 1: it here first. Kids, don't be opposer, or golf and 5249 04:58:46,320 --> 04:58:50,360 Speaker 1: ball will literally murder you. They picked me up in 5250 04:58:50,400 --> 04:58:53,440 Speaker 1: the parking lot of grocery outlet in northeast Portland. That's 5251 04:58:53,480 --> 04:58:56,040 Speaker 1: a mundane detail, I suppose, but perhaps the single most 5252 04:58:56,080 --> 04:58:58,720 Speaker 1: remarkable thing about my trip was the ever present contrast 5253 04:58:58,800 --> 04:59:02,360 Speaker 1: between mandanity and bizarre. I bought a case of coconut 5254 04:59:02,400 --> 04:59:06,000 Speaker 1: water while we waited. Works might like coconut water. Who 5255 04:59:06,040 --> 04:59:09,000 Speaker 1: doesn't like coconut water? They showed up in a mid 5256 04:59:09,080 --> 04:59:11,600 Speaker 1: teens Honda Civic sedan, and I've been hoping for something 5257 04:59:11,680 --> 04:59:14,320 Speaker 1: out of mad Max. The two women who got out, 5258 04:59:14,480 --> 04:59:17,440 Speaker 1: one cis one trans, both white, were dressed in clean 5259 04:59:17,560 --> 04:59:20,120 Speaker 1: gray tank tops and leggings, like half the women who 5260 04:59:20,160 --> 04:59:22,760 Speaker 1: live in Portland. To be honest, I only noticed them 5261 04:59:22,800 --> 04:59:24,800 Speaker 1: in the parking lot at all because the trans woman 5262 04:59:24,919 --> 04:59:28,320 Speaker 1: was cute. Hell Fire this, this woman asked. She was 5263 04:59:28,360 --> 04:59:30,919 Speaker 1: tall and severe, with the fierce but almost trustworthy look 5264 04:59:30,960 --> 04:59:33,480 Speaker 1: of a loan shark or, as it turned out, an 5265 04:59:33,600 --> 04:59:37,840 Speaker 1: Orchis enforcer. That's me, I said, Fenrik. This this woman 5266 04:59:37,919 --> 04:59:40,280 Speaker 1: offered her name, but no handshake, fist bump or hug. 5267 04:59:40,960 --> 04:59:44,680 Speaker 1: I nodded. Norinda, the trans woman said. Like a lot 5268 04:59:44,720 --> 04:59:47,000 Speaker 1: of trans women these days, she didn't bother to feminize 5269 04:59:47,040 --> 04:59:50,000 Speaker 1: her voice. Her name sounded familiar, but I couldn't place it. 5270 04:59:50,919 --> 04:59:53,120 Speaker 1: How is this going to work? I asked. We're going 5271 04:59:53,200 --> 04:59:54,960 Speaker 1: to drive around back where no one can see us. 5272 04:59:55,000 --> 04:59:57,480 Speaker 1: Fenric said, We're going to take your phone and laptop 5273 04:59:57,560 --> 04:59:59,399 Speaker 1: in any electronics and put them in a fair day 5274 04:59:59,440 --> 05:00:01,560 Speaker 1: in the car. Then we're going to put you in 5275 05:00:01,640 --> 05:00:04,239 Speaker 1: the trunk and drive out to the forest. Will provide 5276 05:00:04,280 --> 05:00:06,640 Speaker 1: you with a recorder and notebook when we arrive. You'll 5277 05:00:06,640 --> 05:00:09,600 Speaker 1: get your stuff back when we leave. I nodded, I'd 5278 05:00:09,600 --> 05:00:13,360 Speaker 1: pretty much expected this. Dindi is the bathroom. Nor In asked, 5279 05:00:13,560 --> 05:00:16,560 Speaker 1: have any medical conditions we should know about? No, and no, 5280 05:00:16,800 --> 05:00:22,480 Speaker 1: I said, either of you want a coconut water? Gobland 5281 05:00:22,560 --> 05:00:25,080 Speaker 1: forests sang in English. But Crimptol's lyrics were all in 5282 05:00:25,160 --> 05:00:30,080 Speaker 1: Tolkien's Black Speech dark Speech. Our lyrics were in dark Speech. 5283 05:00:30,960 --> 05:00:34,880 Speaker 1: Tolkien referred to the language as black speech. Tolkien meant well, 5284 05:00:34,960 --> 05:00:38,200 Speaker 1: but he was about the most influential unconsciously racist author 5285 05:00:38,240 --> 05:00:41,440 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. All his villains were either Green 5286 05:00:41,600 --> 05:00:43,920 Speaker 1: or Middle Eastern. When you engage with the work of 5287 05:00:44,000 --> 05:00:47,520 Speaker 1: historical authors, especially when you make derivative works a century later, 5288 05:00:47,919 --> 05:00:51,120 Speaker 1: you have to adapt to one's own social context. Calling 5289 05:00:51,200 --> 05:00:54,960 Speaker 1: the language black speech today is at best wildly misleading. 5290 05:00:55,320 --> 05:00:58,400 Speaker 1: Its name is a translation. Anyway, It's possible that dark 5291 05:00:58,480 --> 05:01:02,440 Speaker 1: speech is just as accurate it. Besides, Token didn't write 5292 05:01:02,440 --> 05:01:05,440 Speaker 1: the language. He only wrote like sixteen words or something. 5293 05:01:06,000 --> 05:01:08,920 Speaker 1: We wrote the rest. Most of us prefer to translate 5294 05:01:09,000 --> 05:01:12,840 Speaker 1: the name of it as dark speech. Since where murderers 5295 05:01:12,919 --> 05:01:16,240 Speaker 1: pc my status as a person who has ended the 5296 05:01:16,320 --> 05:01:19,600 Speaker 1: life of another person carries no implications about my personal 5297 05:01:19,680 --> 05:01:22,560 Speaker 1: ethics other than that I clearly believe there are circumstances 5298 05:01:22,680 --> 05:01:27,640 Speaker 1: under which it's okay to kill someone. Imagine being at 5299 05:01:27,680 --> 05:01:30,600 Speaker 1: the Renaissance Fair when the apocalypse hits and you're stuck 5300 05:01:30,680 --> 05:01:33,640 Speaker 1: trying to recreate society, surrounded by swords and minstrels and 5301 05:01:33,800 --> 05:01:36,160 Speaker 1: these and thous. You know how that sounds like either 5302 05:01:36,200 --> 05:01:38,240 Speaker 1: heaven or hell, depending on who you are and also 5303 05:01:38,280 --> 05:01:41,759 Speaker 1: who you're stuck there with. That was my first impression 5304 05:01:41,800 --> 05:01:44,600 Speaker 1: of the village of Graymorrow. The fires out west have 5305 05:01:44,680 --> 05:01:47,640 Speaker 1: burned forest after forest and small town after small town, 5306 05:01:47,720 --> 05:01:49,600 Speaker 1: and no one tries to deny that pretty much every 5307 05:01:49,640 --> 05:01:52,360 Speaker 1: bioregion on the planet is going through transformation right now. 5308 05:01:53,240 --> 05:01:55,680 Speaker 1: It's in the worst spots, these dat ecologies that the 5309 05:01:55,720 --> 05:01:59,560 Speaker 1: post civilization movement has found its roots, like wildflowers growing 5310 05:01:59,640 --> 05:02:03,120 Speaker 1: up between paving stones or rat's hiding in the walls, 5311 05:02:03,200 --> 05:02:07,120 Speaker 1: I guess, depending on who you ask. Gray Morrow sits 5312 05:02:07,160 --> 05:02:09,720 Speaker 1: in the scorched graveyard of a Douglas fir forest, halfway 5313 05:02:09,759 --> 05:02:12,360 Speaker 1: up a mountain, occupying the remains of an evacuated town. 5314 05:02:13,160 --> 05:02:16,120 Speaker 1: Slab foundations are all that remain of the original structures. 5315 05:02:16,640 --> 05:02:19,000 Speaker 1: A seasonal creek runs through what was recently a river 5316 05:02:19,080 --> 05:02:21,520 Speaker 1: bed at the edge of the village, and long abandoned 5317 05:02:21,560 --> 05:02:24,880 Speaker 1: train tracks skirt the ridge above town. Even armed with 5318 05:02:24,919 --> 05:02:27,240 Speaker 1: all of that information, you'd still have at least seventy 5319 05:02:27,360 --> 05:02:31,440 Speaker 1: or eighty possible spots to search. Satellite imagery would help, 5320 05:02:31,520 --> 05:02:34,120 Speaker 1: of course. I can't imagine that the Big Six texts 5321 05:02:34,160 --> 05:02:36,320 Speaker 1: or the U. S Government don't know where Gray Morrow is. 5322 05:02:37,000 --> 05:02:39,320 Speaker 1: The residents of Gray Morrow in general, and Golf and 5323 05:02:39,360 --> 05:02:41,960 Speaker 1: Bole in particular, had an awful lot to lose by 5324 05:02:42,040 --> 05:02:45,520 Speaker 1: letting me write this report. Nourenda let me out of 5325 05:02:45,520 --> 05:02:47,719 Speaker 1: the trunk, and she smiled when she saw me. Her 5326 05:02:47,759 --> 05:02:50,760 Speaker 1: bottom teeth were filed. That should have been unnerving, but 5327 05:02:50,840 --> 05:02:53,199 Speaker 1: I've always been a sucker for face tattoos or anything 5328 05:02:53,280 --> 05:02:56,320 Speaker 1: that really shows someone is going for broke. Fenric just 5329 05:02:56,440 --> 05:02:59,719 Speaker 1: stared at me severe. Being severe was pretty much her thing, 5330 05:02:59,800 --> 05:03:02,000 Speaker 1: as far as I could tell. She took a sip 5331 05:03:02,080 --> 05:03:05,840 Speaker 1: from her coconut water. Three other cars filled a makeshift 5332 05:03:05,919 --> 05:03:08,440 Speaker 1: parking lot. The village itself was surrounded by a wall 5333 05:03:08,480 --> 05:03:10,960 Speaker 1: built from black and logs, set upright and buried in 5334 05:03:11,040 --> 05:03:14,640 Speaker 1: the ruins of the road. My escorts had changed clothes 5335 05:03:14,680 --> 05:03:17,480 Speaker 1: and route Fenrick looked like a bandit out of Skyrim, 5336 05:03:17,560 --> 05:03:20,000 Speaker 1: complete with iron pauldron on one shoulder and a hand 5337 05:03:20,040 --> 05:03:23,080 Speaker 1: axe strapped to her belt. I won't lie, it was 5338 05:03:23,120 --> 05:03:25,719 Speaker 1: a good look. I'm no fashion reporter, but I figure 5339 05:03:25,720 --> 05:03:27,440 Speaker 1: half the magazines in New York would love to get 5340 05:03:27,480 --> 05:03:29,440 Speaker 1: someone out here and take pictures of Orcs like her. 5341 05:03:30,520 --> 05:03:34,079 Speaker 1: Nornda wore a simple, modest dress of undyed wool. Imagine 5342 05:03:34,120 --> 05:03:37,400 Speaker 1: a Viking kindergarten teacher who also wears a rather large 5343 05:03:37,480 --> 05:03:40,000 Speaker 1: dagger horizontally on her belt at the small of her back. 5344 05:03:40,600 --> 05:03:43,720 Speaker 1: My crushing on her intensified. She handed me a spiral 5345 05:03:43,800 --> 05:03:46,480 Speaker 1: notebook in an old fashioned digital recorder, and we walked 5346 05:03:46,520 --> 05:03:51,200 Speaker 1: into the village. A lot of people say that you 5347 05:03:51,320 --> 05:03:54,320 Speaker 1: killed Rick Green because you're jealous of Goblin Forest's success. 5348 05:03:54,919 --> 05:03:57,160 Speaker 1: That the orchi Is code insisted that if you wanted 5349 05:03:57,200 --> 05:04:00,760 Speaker 1: the throne, you had to kill the reigning monarch. Golfing 5350 05:04:00,800 --> 05:04:03,680 Speaker 1: Bull stopped fidgeting and stared directly at me, his dark 5351 05:04:03,800 --> 05:04:09,800 Speaker 1: brown eyes boring into me. That's bullshit. I'm sorry, it's 5352 05:04:09,880 --> 05:04:14,079 Speaker 1: like three layers deep of bullshit. He was still staring 5353 05:04:14,160 --> 05:04:17,880 Speaker 1: at me. I was starting to regret this line of questioning. Okay, 5354 05:04:18,080 --> 05:04:20,560 Speaker 1: to start, there are pretty much two ways to interpret 5355 05:04:20,600 --> 05:04:23,400 Speaker 1: the Orcish Code of Honor. It's not written down anywhere, 5356 05:04:23,440 --> 05:04:26,840 Speaker 1: but there's some strong central themes, like an interdependence between 5357 05:04:26,880 --> 05:04:31,160 Speaker 1: individual sovereignty and collective identity. We value strength, but the 5358 05:04:31,320 --> 05:04:35,160 Speaker 1: idea is that everyone develops their own strengths, whatever they 5359 05:04:35,200 --> 05:04:37,440 Speaker 1: may be, for the benefit of all. One should be 5360 05:04:37,480 --> 05:04:39,560 Speaker 1: as self reliant as one is able to be, both 5361 05:04:39,600 --> 05:04:42,080 Speaker 1: for one's own sake and again for the community's sake. 5362 05:04:42,480 --> 05:04:46,200 Speaker 1: I cared deeply about this. That same basic idea, though, 5363 05:04:46,360 --> 05:04:49,960 Speaker 1: can be interpreted two different ways. So there's a split 5364 05:04:50,040 --> 05:04:52,920 Speaker 1: in the orc community. Damn right, there's a split. The 5365 05:04:53,000 --> 05:04:56,200 Speaker 1: free Orcs are matriarchal and the or Seene are patriarchal. 5366 05:04:57,280 --> 05:04:59,960 Speaker 1: Golfin Bull produced a cigarette from god knows where, consider 5367 05:05:00,000 --> 05:05:02,320 Speaker 1: and how little he was wearing, and lit it with 5368 05:05:02,360 --> 05:05:05,480 Speaker 1: a lighter from the same mysterious origin. It wasn't tobacco, 5369 05:05:05,800 --> 05:05:10,480 Speaker 1: it wasn't weed, maybe mugwart. The matriarchal way of interpreting 5370 05:05:10,520 --> 05:05:14,720 Speaker 1: those tenants is roughly anarchist. It's anti authoritarian, an anti nationalist. 5371 05:05:14,840 --> 05:05:17,680 Speaker 1: At the very least, we respect the wisdom of elders, 5372 05:05:17,800 --> 05:05:21,160 Speaker 1: children and women self identifying women. But the hierarchy is 5373 05:05:21,200 --> 05:05:23,960 Speaker 1: anything but rigid, and the guidelines are anything but laws. 5374 05:05:24,400 --> 05:05:27,800 Speaker 1: Most importantly, our sense of community or tribe is fluid. 5375 05:05:28,280 --> 05:05:32,080 Speaker 1: Gray Morrow is a free orc village. Go fifteen miles 5376 05:05:32,120 --> 05:05:35,680 Speaker 1: southeast and you'll find a larger village lonely mountain there. 5377 05:05:35,840 --> 05:05:39,400 Speaker 1: Or Seen. The patriarchal way of interpreting Orchish tenants is 5378 05:05:39,520 --> 05:05:44,040 Speaker 1: roughly fascistic. Authority is absolute. Rank within the hierarchy effects 5379 05:05:44,080 --> 05:05:47,320 Speaker 1: every aspect of one's own life. It's not racialized, but 5380 05:05:47,360 --> 05:05:50,920 Speaker 1: it's nationalistic. There are very specific considerations of who is 5381 05:05:51,120 --> 05:05:53,680 Speaker 1: and isn't a part of any given social grouping, and 5382 05:05:53,800 --> 05:05:57,880 Speaker 1: definitions of strength tend askew toward boring shit like physical 5383 05:05:58,000 --> 05:06:01,520 Speaker 1: size and power. So you tell any doubters that you 5384 05:06:01,600 --> 05:06:04,280 Speaker 1: weren't trying to claim the goblin throne, because your faction 5385 05:06:04,320 --> 05:06:07,480 Speaker 1: of Orcs doesn't work that way. No orci Is culture 5386 05:06:07,560 --> 05:06:10,720 Speaker 1: works that way. Even those fascistic ships don't work that way. 5387 05:06:11,120 --> 05:06:13,480 Speaker 1: Among the or Seen. If you kill your superior people 5388 05:06:13,480 --> 05:06:15,919 Speaker 1: aren't going to just suddenly start kissing your ass. They 5389 05:06:15,960 --> 05:06:18,560 Speaker 1: will literally flee you and turn your skin into a 5390 05:06:18,600 --> 05:06:22,240 Speaker 1: battle flag. You advance in rank by demonstrating your capacity 5391 05:06:22,320 --> 05:06:25,920 Speaker 1: to lead. This isn't some fucking Hollywood bullshit. Evil is 5392 05:06:25,960 --> 05:06:28,640 Speaker 1: a lot more banal than that. I didn't have the 5393 05:06:28,680 --> 05:06:30,760 Speaker 1: heart or maybe the courage to tell him that to 5394 05:06:30,880 --> 05:06:34,240 Speaker 1: me too, pretty much, any outsider Hollywood bullshit is exactly 5395 05:06:34,280 --> 05:06:37,960 Speaker 1: what the whole place looked like. When you say battle flag, 5396 05:06:38,160 --> 05:06:40,880 Speaker 1: what do you mean? Who do they do battle with us? 5397 05:06:41,440 --> 05:06:45,160 Speaker 1: The free Orcs? Are you at war for the very 5398 05:06:45,320 --> 05:06:49,320 Speaker 1: soul of our culture? How'd that start? When I cut 5399 05:06:49,440 --> 05:06:53,600 Speaker 1: down Rick Green the Mountain King? You killed him because 5400 05:06:53,600 --> 05:06:55,360 Speaker 1: he was the leader of a rival faction, then, not 5401 05:06:55,480 --> 05:06:58,520 Speaker 1: because he was a poser. They weren't a rival faction 5402 05:06:58,640 --> 05:07:01,040 Speaker 1: until I killed him, But shure he was a poser 5403 05:07:01,080 --> 05:07:04,680 Speaker 1: though all fascists o posers. Did you go on tour 5404 05:07:04,759 --> 05:07:09,760 Speaker 1: with Goblin Forest specifically to murder him? Yeah? Probably? What 5405 05:07:09,840 --> 05:07:12,680 Speaker 1: do you mean probably? That's a very specific question about 5406 05:07:12,720 --> 05:07:15,800 Speaker 1: a very specific intention. I mean, I guess I had 5407 05:07:15,880 --> 05:07:19,079 Speaker 1: been thinking about killing him for a while. It was premeditated, 5408 05:07:19,200 --> 05:07:23,080 Speaker 1: and it wasn't you know? No, I don't know, because 5409 05:07:23,080 --> 05:07:26,480 Speaker 1: I've never killed anyone. So it's like I've known Rick 5410 05:07:26,520 --> 05:07:29,160 Speaker 1: Green almost five years. He and I and maybe thirty 5411 05:07:29,200 --> 05:07:31,880 Speaker 1: other people. We started this whole thing, Goblin Metal of 5412 05:07:31,880 --> 05:07:34,559 Speaker 1: the Orcs. All of that. Rick Green has always been 5413 05:07:34,560 --> 05:07:37,200 Speaker 1: a fucking bastard. I figured I'd probably kill him one 5414 05:07:37,240 --> 05:07:39,960 Speaker 1: day for being kind of a Nazi or whatever. Then 5415 05:07:40,000 --> 05:07:42,000 Speaker 1: we go on tour together and I tell myself, Hey, 5416 05:07:42,160 --> 05:07:44,399 Speaker 1: if this goes badly, I can always just kill him 5417 05:07:44,440 --> 05:07:47,759 Speaker 1: on stage. You've got to understand, Orcus culture wasn't even 5418 05:07:47,840 --> 05:07:50,480 Speaker 1: a year old at that point. We weren't split into 5419 05:07:50,520 --> 05:07:52,640 Speaker 1: the Free Orcs in the ore Seene yet. There were 5420 05:07:52,680 --> 05:07:55,720 Speaker 1: only maybe five villages total. We were just starting to 5421 05:07:55,840 --> 05:07:58,200 Speaker 1: explore what it meant to be ourselves, what kind of 5422 05:07:58,280 --> 05:08:01,040 Speaker 1: culture we could build the in. While we were on tour, 5423 05:08:01,400 --> 05:08:05,160 Speaker 1: I hear he's got himself crowned the Mountain King. And 5424 05:08:05,240 --> 05:08:07,160 Speaker 1: this isn't a game. I don't know how to get 5425 05:08:07,240 --> 05:08:09,840 Speaker 1: that through to you or your readers. This is our life. 5426 05:08:10,160 --> 05:08:11,680 Speaker 1: It's one thing to put on a silly hat and 5427 05:08:11,759 --> 05:08:14,200 Speaker 1: pretend to tell people what to do in some larp somewhere. 5428 05:08:14,480 --> 05:08:18,600 Speaker 1: But Rick Green had gotten himself corornated for real dictator 5429 05:08:18,840 --> 05:08:22,040 Speaker 1: over actual people. So I killed him. The Free York 5430 05:08:22,120 --> 05:08:24,480 Speaker 1: split off, the or Seine closed ranks, and we've been 5431 05:08:24,520 --> 05:08:28,560 Speaker 1: at war ever since. Am I safe here? He didn't 5432 05:08:28,600 --> 05:08:30,800 Speaker 1: answer me, at least he didn't stare me down again. 5433 05:08:31,320 --> 05:08:34,320 Speaker 1: He just looked off into the distance, maybe towards Lonely Mountain. 5434 05:08:36,360 --> 05:08:38,520 Speaker 1: I've been to laps before, where when you show up, 5435 05:08:38,560 --> 05:08:40,600 Speaker 1: they make you put on garb. That is to say, 5436 05:08:40,720 --> 05:08:43,280 Speaker 1: they make you wear period appropriate clothes, or whatever weird 5437 05:08:43,360 --> 05:08:46,960 Speaker 1: interpretation of period appropriate that particular group of Larbers had 5438 05:08:47,000 --> 05:08:49,919 Speaker 1: come up with. As I met the denizens of the village, 5439 05:08:51,040 --> 05:08:53,480 Speaker 1: they all came out to the parking lot to introduce themselves. 5440 05:08:53,840 --> 05:08:56,120 Speaker 1: I realized they didn't insist on anything like that because 5441 05:08:56,560 --> 05:08:59,400 Speaker 1: they weren't LARPing. Pretty much, every one of them was 5442 05:08:59,480 --> 05:09:02,280 Speaker 1: dressed like either a Viking reenactor or fantasy game villain, 5443 05:09:02,720 --> 05:09:06,120 Speaker 1: but it wasn't an act. About thirty adults and eight 5444 05:09:06,240 --> 05:09:08,840 Speaker 1: kids lived there, running the age gamut from six months 5445 05:09:08,919 --> 05:09:12,280 Speaker 1: to seventy eight years. They told me their names and pronouns. 5446 05:09:12,360 --> 05:09:14,400 Speaker 1: About a third told me she, a third he in 5447 05:09:14,440 --> 05:09:17,200 Speaker 1: the third day. Many of them were white or past 5448 05:09:17,240 --> 05:09:20,640 Speaker 1: as such, but a significant minority were black. Nourenda told 5449 05:09:20,680 --> 05:09:23,359 Speaker 1: me later. There are Orc villages with substantially higher proportions 5450 05:09:23,400 --> 05:09:25,600 Speaker 1: of people of color. That might be true, but I 5451 05:09:25,640 --> 05:09:27,880 Speaker 1: got the impression she said it to convince herself or 5452 05:09:28,000 --> 05:09:31,040 Speaker 1: me that the free Orcs aren't a specifically white phenomenon. 5453 05:09:31,680 --> 05:09:34,559 Speaker 1: No One, no one decent, likes looking around their community 5454 05:09:34,640 --> 05:09:38,480 Speaker 1: or scene and seeing only white faces smiling back. After 5455 05:09:38,560 --> 05:09:41,800 Speaker 1: everyone introduced themselves, immediately forgot all their names. There are 5456 05:09:41,840 --> 05:09:44,760 Speaker 1: only so many fantasy names like Lazarre and Demlin that 5457 05:09:44,800 --> 05:09:46,520 Speaker 1: you can hear before they all just sound the same. 5458 05:09:48,040 --> 05:09:50,280 Speaker 1: Nourenda and Fenrik flanked me as we walked through a 5459 05:09:50,320 --> 05:09:53,040 Speaker 1: gate in the wall into the village. It's strange to 5460 05:09:53,080 --> 05:09:55,759 Speaker 1: say village in America. We don't really have villages here, 5461 05:09:56,240 --> 05:09:59,640 Speaker 1: but in some ways Graymorrow isn't the United States. And 5462 05:09:59,680 --> 05:10:02,640 Speaker 1: to be certain, it was a village, maybe ten or 5463 05:10:02,680 --> 05:10:05,360 Speaker 1: fifteen houses crowded together along either side of a single 5464 05:10:05,440 --> 05:10:10,039 Speaker 1: potholed street. Two architectural styles reigned, junkyard shacks built out 5465 05:10:10,080 --> 05:10:14,079 Speaker 1: of railroad cars in regular cars, and traditional American log cabins, 5466 05:10:14,800 --> 05:10:17,400 Speaker 1: many of them were adorned with solar panels. At the 5467 05:10:17,520 --> 05:10:20,480 Speaker 1: end of the street, near the black Palisade, the beginnings 5468 05:10:20,520 --> 05:10:24,160 Speaker 1: of a stone tower stood fifteen feet high. I wasn't 5469 05:10:24,160 --> 05:10:26,480 Speaker 1: sure if I was impressed or not. On one hand, 5470 05:10:26,560 --> 05:10:28,360 Speaker 1: the village couldn't have been around longer than three or 5471 05:10:28,400 --> 05:10:30,680 Speaker 1: four years, and they had already done so much. On 5472 05:10:30,759 --> 05:10:34,400 Speaker 1: the other hand, it was filthy. Everyone was filthy. I'm 5473 05:10:34,440 --> 05:10:36,400 Speaker 1: kind of obsessed with the post civilization movement, so I 5474 05:10:36,400 --> 05:10:38,440 Speaker 1: wish I could tell you everyone looked well fed and happy. 5475 05:10:39,080 --> 05:10:42,240 Speaker 1: They didn't. People looked proud, and they didn't look miserable. 5476 05:10:42,320 --> 05:10:44,560 Speaker 1: But there was an intensity in everyone's eyes you simply 5477 05:10:44,600 --> 05:10:48,840 Speaker 1: could not mistake for happiness. A trash pile needed tending 5478 05:10:48,880 --> 05:10:50,760 Speaker 1: near the front gate, and some of the animal hides 5479 05:10:50,800 --> 05:10:53,800 Speaker 1: stretched for tanning had begun to rot. Everything looked like 5480 05:10:53,880 --> 05:10:56,560 Speaker 1: it was about to fall apart, both physically and metaphorically. 5481 05:10:57,919 --> 05:11:00,200 Speaker 1: What now, I asked when we reached the central school air, 5482 05:11:00,360 --> 05:11:03,120 Speaker 1: a stone cobbled chunk of what had been once an intersection, 5483 05:11:03,200 --> 05:11:06,440 Speaker 1: now decorated with poorly tended gardens and rustic benches of 5484 05:11:06,520 --> 05:11:09,960 Speaker 1: dubious quality. You're here to interview golfing Ball or you're not, 5485 05:11:10,200 --> 05:11:14,120 Speaker 1: Fendrick asked, I am golf Ball doesn't live here. I 5486 05:11:14,240 --> 05:11:16,800 Speaker 1: waited for her to elaborate, golfing Ball lives in the 5487 05:11:16,880 --> 05:11:19,360 Speaker 1: forest with the rest of his band. He's on his way. 5488 05:11:19,480 --> 05:11:21,759 Speaker 1: You'll meet him a bit outside of town. I'll take 5489 05:11:21,800 --> 05:11:25,160 Speaker 1: you to him when he gets there. Someone near the 5490 05:11:25,200 --> 05:11:27,880 Speaker 1: gates shouted, and both of my escorts flinched bodily and 5491 05:11:28,000 --> 05:11:30,960 Speaker 1: turned to look. It was just a kid chasing another 5492 05:11:31,040 --> 05:11:34,520 Speaker 1: kid with a wooden sword. Fenrick and Narindo were on edge. 5493 05:11:35,160 --> 05:11:40,440 Speaker 1: Something was about to happen. Tell me about your new band, Ulcre. 5494 05:11:41,080 --> 05:11:44,680 Speaker 1: What does the name mean? Alsirith is the dark speech 5495 05:11:44,800 --> 05:11:46,760 Speaker 1: word for the phase of the moon on the last 5496 05:11:46,919 --> 05:11:49,840 Speaker 1: night before the new moon, the last sliver of light. 5497 05:11:50,320 --> 05:11:53,320 Speaker 1: Ulsareth is a holy day, a day of self reflection. 5498 05:11:53,720 --> 05:11:57,120 Speaker 1: Our band's music attempts to capture that spirit of self reflection. 5499 05:11:57,680 --> 05:12:00,600 Speaker 1: On Alcyreth, we listen to our naysayer and think about 5500 05:12:00,600 --> 05:12:06,360 Speaker 1: ourselves and our community your naysayer. Free Orchish villages don't 5501 05:12:06,400 --> 05:12:09,640 Speaker 1: have leaders, We have naysayers. Two years ago, we tried 5502 05:12:09,800 --> 05:12:14,240 Speaker 1: rotating leadership. It was ineffectual. We didn't need leaders. We 5503 05:12:14,320 --> 05:12:16,520 Speaker 1: stuck with it anyway because we felt like we had to, 5504 05:12:16,720 --> 05:12:18,560 Speaker 1: because those were the rules we had come up with. 5505 05:12:19,160 --> 05:12:22,280 Speaker 1: Then one person said, basically, this is bullshit. We don't 5506 05:12:22,320 --> 05:12:24,440 Speaker 1: need someone to tell us what to do. We need 5507 05:12:24,520 --> 05:12:26,719 Speaker 1: someone to tell us what to stop doing. We need 5508 05:12:26,840 --> 05:12:29,720 Speaker 1: someone to tell us what we're doing wrong. Every new moon, 5509 05:12:29,880 --> 05:12:33,120 Speaker 1: every village picks a new naysayer. That person spends the 5510 05:12:33,160 --> 05:12:36,200 Speaker 1: month picking up heart group structures, observing what's happening, being 5511 05:12:36,240 --> 05:12:39,800 Speaker 1: critical on Alsareth, We fast and listen to the naysayer. 5512 05:12:40,200 --> 05:12:43,719 Speaker 1: They don't offer solutions necessarily, but instead bring our problems 5513 05:12:43,759 --> 05:12:48,680 Speaker 1: to light. Does that work surprisingly well? Except about a 5514 05:12:48,759 --> 05:12:51,040 Speaker 1: third of the naysayers end up leaving after their month. 5515 05:12:51,480 --> 05:12:53,400 Speaker 1: Some go to other villages, Some go to live in 5516 05:12:53,440 --> 05:12:57,520 Speaker 1: the forest, like Narinda Alsareth singer did, but most leave 5517 05:12:57,600 --> 05:13:00,920 Speaker 1: the woods. As we put it, most go back to civilization. 5518 05:13:02,600 --> 05:13:04,760 Speaker 1: That's why Narenda's name sound of familiar when she didn't. 5519 05:13:04,800 --> 05:13:07,480 Speaker 1: She introduced herself. To be honest, I saw your name 5520 05:13:07,520 --> 05:13:09,440 Speaker 1: list in the liner notes and didn't pay much attention 5521 05:13:09,480 --> 05:13:12,440 Speaker 1: to the rest. That's an argument for me to take 5522 05:13:12,480 --> 05:13:14,840 Speaker 1: my name off our next release. If there is one, 5523 05:13:15,880 --> 05:13:17,399 Speaker 1: why did you put it there in the first place, 5524 05:13:17,720 --> 05:13:19,720 Speaker 1: Why did you agree to this interview? And what do 5525 05:13:19,759 --> 05:13:22,600 Speaker 1: you mean if there is one? I told you we're 5526 05:13:22,640 --> 05:13:28,000 Speaker 1: at war. Yeah, we're losing that war. He took a 5527 05:13:28,080 --> 05:13:30,640 Speaker 1: deep breath, trying to keep himself calm. He didn't strike 5528 05:13:30,720 --> 05:13:32,480 Speaker 1: me as a man who was afraid to cry, but 5529 05:13:32,560 --> 05:13:35,960 Speaker 1: he was clearly trying to keep his composure. There's no 5530 05:13:36,080 --> 05:13:38,480 Speaker 1: way that Gray Morrow would have let you talk to 5531 05:13:38,600 --> 05:13:40,759 Speaker 1: me here if any of us thought that Gray Morrow 5532 05:13:40,840 --> 05:13:43,000 Speaker 1: had a future. There's no way I would have talked 5533 05:13:43,000 --> 05:13:44,239 Speaker 1: to you at all if I thought I was going 5534 05:13:44,320 --> 05:13:48,239 Speaker 1: to be alive to see another alster. Why are you losing? 5535 05:13:48,560 --> 05:13:51,560 Speaker 1: Why are you going to die? It's not a question 5536 05:13:51,640 --> 05:13:54,520 Speaker 1: of military efficacy, or of bravery or strength or any 5537 05:13:54,560 --> 05:13:57,480 Speaker 1: of that ship. It's just a question of numbers. We're 5538 05:13:57,480 --> 05:14:01,239 Speaker 1: seeing society as a military society. Every member fights. As 5539 05:14:01,280 --> 05:14:04,039 Speaker 1: far as we can tell, They've got fift hundred warriors, 5540 05:14:04,600 --> 05:14:09,320 Speaker 1: We've got five hundred, so use guerrilla tactics. Golf and 5541 05:14:09,360 --> 05:14:13,200 Speaker 1: bull shook his head. Striking Rick Green down from behind 5542 05:14:13,320 --> 05:14:16,440 Speaker 1: was a cowardly action. I can justify it almost by 5543 05:14:16,480 --> 05:14:19,360 Speaker 1: the fact that Green had declared himself my monarch. But 5544 05:14:19,440 --> 05:14:22,400 Speaker 1: the Orsine warriors are my peers. They would not stalk 5545 05:14:22,480 --> 05:14:26,760 Speaker 1: me in the night. I will not stalk them. That sounds, 5546 05:14:27,440 --> 05:14:31,360 Speaker 1: I know how it sounds. So this interview, I want 5547 05:14:31,360 --> 05:14:33,960 Speaker 1: to be remembered. I want the free Orcs of Cascadia 5548 05:14:34,080 --> 05:14:36,280 Speaker 1: to be remembered. I put my name on the liner 5549 05:14:36,360 --> 05:14:39,600 Speaker 1: notes so that someone like you, an anti fascist music blogger, 5550 05:14:39,840 --> 05:14:42,160 Speaker 1: would talk to me. I leveraged my own infamy to 5551 05:14:42,240 --> 05:14:46,040 Speaker 1: draw attention to what we're doing, what we've done. I 5552 05:14:46,240 --> 05:14:51,040 Speaker 1: fucking hate the tragic utopian trope. What like seriously like 5553 05:14:51,240 --> 05:14:53,280 Speaker 1: fuck you? Okay, I know I'm here as a journalist, 5554 05:14:53,320 --> 05:14:56,120 Speaker 1: but I'm not gonna write your fucking obituary. I don't 5555 05:14:56,120 --> 05:14:58,600 Speaker 1: think I've ever turned on an interview subject like that before. 5556 05:14:59,600 --> 05:15:01,880 Speaker 1: I get it. Hopeless causes are beautiful, but as I 5557 05:15:02,000 --> 05:15:04,399 Speaker 1: understand it, the whole goddamn point of holding onto your 5558 05:15:04,440 --> 05:15:06,960 Speaker 1: honor more firmly than your life is because the world 5559 05:15:07,000 --> 05:15:10,840 Speaker 1: is a better place for everyone if more people did that. Right, Okay, 5560 05:15:11,880 --> 05:15:13,640 Speaker 1: the world isn't a goddamn better place if you let 5561 05:15:13,680 --> 05:15:15,719 Speaker 1: your subculture. And I'm sorry, I know it's very serious 5562 05:15:15,720 --> 05:15:17,400 Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to downplay it, but that's what 5563 05:15:17,480 --> 05:15:21,079 Speaker 1: this is. A musical subculture be taken over by fucking Nazis, 5564 05:15:21,720 --> 05:15:23,360 Speaker 1: and I respect that you're going to fight them for it. 5565 05:15:23,560 --> 05:15:26,160 Speaker 1: That's cool. But if you consider buying some guns, maybe 5566 05:15:26,200 --> 05:15:28,559 Speaker 1: a few drones, they'll come in here with spears, right, 5567 05:15:28,600 --> 05:15:32,039 Speaker 1: and you'll fight them off with other spears. It's man, 5568 05:15:32,120 --> 05:15:34,280 Speaker 1: there are fucking Nazis everywhere. If you don't give a 5569 05:15:34,280 --> 05:15:36,800 Speaker 1: ship about going to jail or dying, then fucking shoot 5570 05:15:36,840 --> 05:15:39,800 Speaker 1: the Nazis. We're trying to kill you. You don't understand, 5571 05:15:40,480 --> 05:15:45,120 Speaker 1: You're fucking right. I don't, if I'm being honest. Most 5572 05:15:45,160 --> 05:15:46,880 Speaker 1: of the time I was waiting, I spent flirting with 5573 05:15:46,960 --> 05:15:49,880 Speaker 1: Norenda and avoiding talking to Fenrich Horenda asked me to 5574 05:15:49,960 --> 05:15:52,800 Speaker 1: keep our conversation off the record. We didn't talk about 5575 05:15:52,840 --> 05:15:55,520 Speaker 1: Gray Morrow or the orc thing much. Anyway. Everything I 5576 05:15:55,640 --> 05:15:58,040 Speaker 1: learned about the village and its culture I learned by observation. 5577 05:15:58,160 --> 05:16:01,400 Speaker 1: Only An elderly and came by and offered us cold 5578 05:16:01,440 --> 05:16:04,960 Speaker 1: tea and wooden mugs steeped BlackBerry leaves sweetened with juice 5579 05:16:05,000 --> 05:16:08,039 Speaker 1: from the berries. He said, no caffeine, no other particularly 5580 05:16:08,040 --> 05:16:11,800 Speaker 1: strong medicinal effects. The three of us took cups from 5581 05:16:11,840 --> 05:16:14,440 Speaker 1: his bladder, and he continued down the street passing out drinks. 5582 05:16:15,320 --> 05:16:17,960 Speaker 1: No one else approached us. I watched people go about 5583 05:16:17,960 --> 05:16:20,120 Speaker 1: their lives, though the tension in the air was thick. 5584 05:16:21,200 --> 05:16:22,920 Speaker 1: I saw a few people look at cell phones and 5585 05:16:23,000 --> 05:16:26,000 Speaker 1: spent a not inconsiderable amount of time trying to decide 5586 05:16:26,040 --> 05:16:29,240 Speaker 1: if that was hypocritical and or bad ops sec. Eventually 5587 05:16:29,280 --> 05:16:31,320 Speaker 1: I gave up, because frankly, it wasn't my business, and 5588 05:16:31,400 --> 05:16:33,160 Speaker 1: one of the most interesting things about all the post 5589 05:16:33,200 --> 05:16:36,040 Speaker 1: civilization groups is all the bits and pieces they choose 5590 05:16:36,120 --> 05:16:40,120 Speaker 1: to carry over from mainstream culture. Finally, after an hour, 5591 05:16:40,880 --> 05:16:44,720 Speaker 1: Fenric stood up come with me. I followed her to 5592 05:16:44,759 --> 05:16:46,680 Speaker 1: the other side of town and through a smaller gait. 5593 05:16:47,160 --> 05:16:49,280 Speaker 1: On the other side, a box truck that had seen 5594 05:16:49,360 --> 05:16:51,920 Speaker 1: better days sat on a road that had to We 5595 05:16:52,040 --> 05:16:54,400 Speaker 1: skirted around the truck and up into the black forest. 5596 05:16:55,840 --> 05:16:58,600 Speaker 1: The scorched hills looked more like meadows than forests, with 5597 05:16:58,720 --> 05:17:01,600 Speaker 1: green grass and undergrowth broken only by black spikes of 5598 05:17:01,640 --> 05:17:04,520 Speaker 1: burned trees. We followed the path this way and that, 5599 05:17:04,720 --> 05:17:08,120 Speaker 1: and soon I was lost. Soon after fog set in, 5600 05:17:09,160 --> 05:17:11,640 Speaker 1: I was further through the looking glass than I had realized. 5601 05:17:12,080 --> 05:17:14,360 Speaker 1: I imagined us lost a mile from a town full 5602 05:17:14,360 --> 05:17:16,440 Speaker 1: of people who gave a double meaning to the word stranger, 5603 05:17:16,520 --> 05:17:19,560 Speaker 1: and probably at least an hour's drive from civilization. My 5604 05:17:19,640 --> 05:17:21,480 Speaker 1: guard hadn't shown me much in the way of kindness, 5605 05:17:21,520 --> 05:17:22,840 Speaker 1: and I was on my way to meet someone I 5606 05:17:22,919 --> 05:17:25,440 Speaker 1: knew to be a murderer. It's the kind of shift 5607 05:17:25,480 --> 05:17:27,920 Speaker 1: I live for. If I'm being honest, I love my stupid, 5608 05:17:28,000 --> 05:17:30,440 Speaker 1: fucking weird job in the stupid fucking weird world we 5609 05:17:30,560 --> 05:17:33,400 Speaker 1: live in. Thank you, my readers for making that possible 5610 05:17:33,440 --> 05:17:35,200 Speaker 1: for me. Be sure to check out my Patreon page 5611 05:17:35,240 --> 05:17:36,600 Speaker 1: if this is the first thing you've read by me. 5612 05:17:37,040 --> 05:17:39,200 Speaker 1: Lots of members only content over there, including a few 5613 05:17:39,240 --> 05:17:42,840 Speaker 1: snippets of orc song from Narinda. The only thing I 5614 05:17:42,919 --> 05:17:45,320 Speaker 1: saw in the distance was a single black spire, thicker 5615 05:17:45,400 --> 05:17:47,960 Speaker 1: than the dead snags around me. As we approached, it 5616 05:17:48,040 --> 05:17:50,520 Speaker 1: came into focus as a boulder jutting up into the 5617 05:17:50,560 --> 05:17:53,240 Speaker 1: sky like an angry finger. Sitting at the base of 5618 05:17:53,320 --> 05:17:55,400 Speaker 1: it was a short man with a sword across his lap, 5619 05:17:56,080 --> 05:17:59,080 Speaker 1: golfing bull. I'll leave you too to it, Fenrick said. 5620 05:17:59,759 --> 05:18:02,480 Speaker 1: She left me alone with an arm murderer. I sat 5621 05:18:02,520 --> 05:18:04,880 Speaker 1: down across from him, took out the notebook and recorder 5622 05:18:05,000 --> 05:18:10,840 Speaker 1: and asked him questions. All right, convince me we can't 5623 05:18:11,000 --> 05:18:14,000 Speaker 1: fight them dishonorably, because you can't protect an idea by 5624 05:18:14,040 --> 05:18:16,880 Speaker 1: defiling that idea. We don't want them to destroy our 5625 05:18:16,919 --> 05:18:18,719 Speaker 1: way of life. But we don't want to destroy our 5626 05:18:18,759 --> 05:18:22,640 Speaker 1: way of life ourselves either. The basic problem with your 5627 05:18:22,680 --> 05:18:24,560 Speaker 1: scene is that they're interpreting your code of honor to 5628 05:18:24,800 --> 05:18:29,399 Speaker 1: mean might makes right. Yeah. Yes. By facing them an 5629 05:18:29,400 --> 05:18:32,160 Speaker 1: open battle and nobly dying or whatever your goddamn planet is, 5630 05:18:32,280 --> 05:18:36,239 Speaker 1: you're just letting them make m right. You're letting their 5631 05:18:36,240 --> 05:18:39,079 Speaker 1: superior numbers dictate what your cultures to look like. It's 5632 05:18:39,120 --> 05:18:42,079 Speaker 1: like majority voting, but even dumber because more people die. 5633 05:18:43,080 --> 05:18:45,320 Speaker 1: I expected him to double down on his position. Most 5634 05:18:45,360 --> 05:18:50,160 Speaker 1: men would. What do you suggest instead, Fuck? I don't know. 5635 05:18:50,560 --> 05:18:53,160 Speaker 1: Don't be here when they attack, Go somewhere else, stay 5636 05:18:53,200 --> 05:18:55,520 Speaker 1: on the move, build your strength. Oh ship, That's what 5637 05:18:55,640 --> 05:19:01,960 Speaker 1: Rick Green was doing, wasn't it. Huh Goblin Forest singing 5638 05:19:02,000 --> 05:19:04,680 Speaker 1: in English, a stupid name like Grick Green All. That 5639 05:19:04,720 --> 05:19:06,960 Speaker 1: ship was designed to make Goblin metal more palatable to 5640 05:19:07,040 --> 05:19:10,520 Speaker 1: the masses, to get fans, to get recruits for his stupid, 5641 05:19:10,560 --> 05:19:16,480 Speaker 1: fucking fashy goals. Yep, do that. I mean, don't become 5642 05:19:16,520 --> 05:19:18,560 Speaker 1: fascists or change your name or make your music worse. 5643 05:19:18,600 --> 05:19:21,520 Speaker 1: Everyone knows Goblin Forest and have shipped on Krimpotzool. Just 5644 05:19:22,160 --> 05:19:24,520 Speaker 1: don't be obscure for the sake of being obscure. Fucking 5645 05:19:24,560 --> 05:19:27,000 Speaker 1: advertise you have a decent thing going here. People are 5646 05:19:27,000 --> 05:19:30,800 Speaker 1: abandoning mainstream society left and right, no political pun intended. 5647 05:19:31,200 --> 05:19:32,840 Speaker 1: Make it easier for them to get here. Make it 5648 05:19:32,919 --> 05:19:35,480 Speaker 1: so that when you fight the fashion your epics, swords 5649 05:19:35,560 --> 05:19:39,360 Speaker 1: and spears, Viking deathmatch, you win better. Yet, make it 5650 05:19:39,440 --> 05:19:40,920 Speaker 1: so they don't even want to funk with you because 5651 05:19:40,919 --> 05:19:44,920 Speaker 1: they know they'll lose. I don't know whether that would work. Yeah, 5652 05:19:45,000 --> 05:19:48,560 Speaker 1: but dying doesn't work either. The Eark way of life 5653 05:19:48,640 --> 05:19:50,880 Speaker 1: isn't meant to be some revolution. It's not meant to 5654 05:19:50,919 --> 05:19:54,080 Speaker 1: supplant the mainstream. It will never appeal to the mainstream, 5655 05:19:54,200 --> 05:19:56,760 Speaker 1: not without losing its soul. Would you live like this? 5656 05:19:57,240 --> 05:20:01,040 Speaker 1: Would you want to? You're right, I'm obsessed with you 5657 05:20:01,120 --> 05:20:03,560 Speaker 1: weird subcultures, but I wouldn't want to live like you. 5658 05:20:04,480 --> 05:20:06,760 Speaker 1: We both stared at each other in silence. It wasn't 5659 05:20:06,759 --> 05:20:11,160 Speaker 1: an uncomfortable silence. We're both just thinking, okay, scrap that. 5660 05:20:11,440 --> 05:20:13,079 Speaker 1: You're never going to get big numbers. You don't need 5661 05:20:13,120 --> 05:20:15,879 Speaker 1: big numbers. You don't want big numbers. You don't need recruits, 5662 05:20:16,040 --> 05:20:21,160 Speaker 1: you need allies. What would that look like god damn dude, 5663 05:20:21,240 --> 05:20:23,640 Speaker 1: all Orcish men note, actually listen to women's ideas. I'm 5664 05:20:23,680 --> 05:20:26,400 Speaker 1: used to guys just talking over me and shutting down completely. 5665 05:20:26,440 --> 05:20:30,080 Speaker 1: If I get mad free Orkish men, I would hope 5666 05:20:30,240 --> 05:20:34,680 Speaker 1: know how to listen. Guns break the spell and the 5667 05:20:34,759 --> 05:20:37,680 Speaker 1: spill you're casting here. It's powerful, it's good. So no guns. 5668 05:20:38,040 --> 05:20:40,760 Speaker 1: Other people have guns, though, Let those people stand guard 5669 05:20:40,919 --> 05:20:43,759 Speaker 1: or make their arm presence. Note outside or seen camps, 5670 05:20:44,280 --> 05:20:46,919 Speaker 1: other people have access to, say, dock singe. How many 5671 05:20:47,000 --> 05:20:48,560 Speaker 1: recruits are the or Sine going to get if every 5672 05:20:48,600 --> 05:20:51,120 Speaker 1: time some want to be forced Nazi dude joins, someone 5673 05:20:51,160 --> 05:20:53,879 Speaker 1: tells his mother what they're about for access to the media, 5674 05:20:54,120 --> 05:20:56,720 Speaker 1: How many recruits are going to join if everyone knows 5675 05:20:56,759 --> 05:20:59,400 Speaker 1: the or Sine or posers putting out substandard, watered down 5676 05:20:59,440 --> 05:21:01,920 Speaker 1: goblin metal just to try and lure an impressionable military 5677 05:21:01,960 --> 05:21:05,320 Speaker 1: aged men to fight their holy war. You'll write those stories. 5678 05:21:06,560 --> 05:21:09,040 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna write you any propaganda, but sure I'll 5679 05:21:09,080 --> 05:21:13,360 Speaker 1: tell the truth. How do we get allies? But at 5680 05:21:13,360 --> 05:21:15,640 Speaker 1: another single, maybe a full length The gray Fog of 5681 05:21:15,680 --> 05:21:17,640 Speaker 1: a Ruined Forest was the best ship of hurtin years. 5682 05:21:18,080 --> 05:21:21,200 Speaker 1: You're redefining folk music. Just like you redefined metal without 5683 05:21:21,280 --> 05:21:23,719 Speaker 1: ship like that, and I'll cover it, talk to more press, 5684 05:21:24,040 --> 05:21:26,240 Speaker 1: maybe someone other than you. Not everyone's going to be 5685 05:21:26,240 --> 05:21:28,680 Speaker 1: sympathetic to what you did, even if that fucking guy 5686 05:21:28,800 --> 05:21:32,560 Speaker 1: was a fucking tree Nazi hunting horn cut through the 5687 05:21:32,600 --> 05:21:35,759 Speaker 1: fog and through our conversation, and my subject's face fell 5688 05:21:35,800 --> 05:21:38,759 Speaker 1: into despair for a half second before determination took over. 5689 05:21:40,040 --> 05:21:43,600 Speaker 1: What's that interviews over? I thought there would be more 5690 05:21:43,680 --> 05:21:46,240 Speaker 1: time another day. At least, we have to get you 5691 05:21:46,320 --> 05:21:51,040 Speaker 1: out of here. Turns out Fenrik had taken us on 5692 05:21:51,080 --> 05:21:54,240 Speaker 1: a purposefully circatuitous route into the woods. It wasn't a 5693 05:21:54,280 --> 05:21:56,680 Speaker 1: quarter of a mile straight downhill before golf and bowl 5694 05:21:56,800 --> 05:21:58,879 Speaker 1: and I reached the box truck at the back entrance 5695 05:21:58,919 --> 05:22:02,400 Speaker 1: to Graymorrow. Noriinda and Fenrick stood there talking with a kid, 5696 05:22:02,480 --> 05:22:05,199 Speaker 1: maybe fifteen, who was out of breath. She was dressed 5697 05:22:05,240 --> 05:22:07,600 Speaker 1: in scraps of fur and leather and cloth, like you 5698 05:22:07,680 --> 05:22:10,520 Speaker 1: might imagine a medieval beggar. It wasn't until I noticed 5699 05:22:10,560 --> 05:22:12,600 Speaker 1: all the twigs and sticks and moss tangled up in 5700 05:22:12,640 --> 05:22:16,239 Speaker 1: the fabrics I recognized it as camouflage. I saw about 5701 05:22:16,280 --> 05:22:19,400 Speaker 1: thirty the scout for that's what she was said about 5702 05:22:19,560 --> 05:22:23,200 Speaker 1: Fenrick asked, exactly thirty ten with pikes, ten with tower, 5703 05:22:23,240 --> 05:22:26,360 Speaker 1: shields and swords. Five archers, two scouts, two command one 5704 05:22:26,400 --> 05:22:28,760 Speaker 1: non combatant. I'd guess a surgeon, but I couldn't promise 5705 05:22:29,720 --> 05:22:32,800 Speaker 1: how far away I asked. Fenrick glared at me for interrupting. 5706 05:22:33,400 --> 05:22:36,080 Speaker 1: Five miles Norenda said, probably three and a half by 5707 05:22:36,120 --> 05:22:38,440 Speaker 1: now down hill. We have time to get you out 5708 05:22:38,520 --> 05:22:41,800 Speaker 1: with the children and the elders. The scout had just 5709 05:22:41,960 --> 05:22:44,920 Speaker 1: run five miles up hill because she was too stubborn 5710 05:22:44,960 --> 05:22:47,720 Speaker 1: to use a walkie talkie or a cell phone. We 5711 05:22:47,720 --> 05:22:52,200 Speaker 1: should evacuate everyone. Gulfumbule said what Fenrick asked. We've got 5712 05:22:52,280 --> 05:22:55,040 Speaker 1: walls and almost even numbers. Fuck them, this is our home. 5713 05:22:55,759 --> 05:22:58,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to shout at her, I wanted to shake her, 5714 05:22:58,080 --> 05:23:00,200 Speaker 1: to tell her this wasn't a fucking game, that it 5715 05:23:00,280 --> 05:23:03,080 Speaker 1: wasn't the twelfth century, and that killing people or dying 5716 05:23:03,160 --> 05:23:05,840 Speaker 1: over some squatted chunk of nowhere was somewhere between stupid 5717 05:23:05,840 --> 05:23:10,160 Speaker 1: and reprehensible. It didn't. Though I'm a good journalist, this 5718 05:23:10,320 --> 05:23:12,360 Speaker 1: isn't the place for us to debate this, Norenda said, 5719 05:23:12,400 --> 05:23:13,960 Speaker 1: and all four of them walked through the gate and 5720 05:23:14,040 --> 05:23:17,040 Speaker 1: left me standing by the truck. That was why the 5721 05:23:17,080 --> 05:23:19,520 Speaker 1: gardens were untended, and with the trash was piled up 5722 05:23:19,560 --> 05:23:22,240 Speaker 1: and the hides were left to rot. They were expecting this. 5723 05:23:22,880 --> 05:23:24,960 Speaker 1: They'd lost their will to pretend like their lives were 5724 05:23:25,000 --> 05:23:28,840 Speaker 1: going to continue to progress forward. I'm not the first 5725 05:23:28,880 --> 05:23:32,160 Speaker 1: to suggest that nihilism is the dominant effect of society today, 5726 05:23:32,680 --> 05:23:35,920 Speaker 1: with climate change destroying communities and bioregions all over the map, 5727 05:23:36,400 --> 05:23:39,160 Speaker 1: with the economic crisis deepening and the wealth gap widening. 5728 05:23:39,560 --> 05:23:41,320 Speaker 1: I think all of us are guilty of forgetting to 5729 05:23:41,440 --> 05:23:43,960 Speaker 1: tend our gardens. All of us have a hard time 5730 05:23:44,000 --> 05:23:45,960 Speaker 1: figuring out why it matters whether or not we deal 5731 05:23:46,000 --> 05:23:49,400 Speaker 1: with our trash. All of us have proverbial or literal 5732 05:23:49,560 --> 05:23:52,840 Speaker 1: Nazis marching on us. The Nazis the free Orcs of 5733 05:23:52,880 --> 05:23:57,120 Speaker 1: Cascadia are dealing with are the literal variety. Some cosplaying 5734 05:23:57,160 --> 05:23:59,879 Speaker 1: fascist was about to stick a sword between Norenda's ribs 5735 05:24:00,520 --> 05:24:03,480 Speaker 1: by Ale rose in my throat. I don't know I 5736 05:24:03,600 --> 05:24:05,560 Speaker 1: believe in love at first sight or any of that ship, 5737 05:24:06,320 --> 05:24:10,000 Speaker 1: but I just couldn't handle the idea. I fucking hate honor. 5738 05:24:10,480 --> 05:24:13,480 Speaker 1: I will never be an orc. I got lost running 5739 05:24:13,520 --> 05:24:16,360 Speaker 1: through solutions to the problem of hypothetical arrows and swords 5740 05:24:16,400 --> 05:24:19,760 Speaker 1: that were going to interfere with Nourindo's continued existence. Most 5741 05:24:19,800 --> 05:24:22,400 Speaker 1: of those solutions involved assault rifles, which I didn't have 5742 05:24:22,480 --> 05:24:26,160 Speaker 1: access to. Cars, though were available. What's thirty warriors of 5743 05:24:26,240 --> 05:24:28,960 Speaker 1: medieval armor versus one station wagon driven by an angry 5744 05:24:29,000 --> 05:24:31,080 Speaker 1: wound with a lead foot. I put the odds in 5745 05:24:31,160 --> 05:24:34,880 Speaker 1: my favor. I wasn't going to do it though. Instead 5746 05:24:35,040 --> 05:24:38,040 Speaker 1: I waited to evacuate. I don't think that speaks well 5747 05:24:38,120 --> 05:24:41,840 Speaker 1: of me. Individually and in groups, people came out through 5748 05:24:41,880 --> 05:24:44,079 Speaker 1: the gate and loaded bags and baskets onto the back 5749 05:24:44,160 --> 05:24:47,240 Speaker 1: of the truck. Noarinda returned with a simple backpack sewn 5750 05:24:47,320 --> 05:24:50,520 Speaker 1: from raw hide. Most of her belongings were probably wherever 5751 05:24:50,640 --> 05:24:53,640 Speaker 1: she Engulfingble and the rest of Alsyreth lived. She handed 5752 05:24:53,680 --> 05:24:57,760 Speaker 1: me my phone, I didn't have service. I wondered whether 5753 05:24:57,840 --> 05:25:00,760 Speaker 1: or not she engulfing Bule were dating. It wasn't relevant 5754 05:25:00,800 --> 05:25:02,840 Speaker 1: to the present moment exactly, But my mind always is 5755 05:25:02,840 --> 05:25:04,920 Speaker 1: a way of thinking about bullshit to avoid thinking about 5756 05:25:04,919 --> 05:25:09,400 Speaker 1: impending doom. Another important effect of our generation distract ourselves 5757 05:25:09,440 --> 05:25:13,560 Speaker 1: with disaster with petty things like love and jealousy. I 5758 05:25:13,600 --> 05:25:15,400 Speaker 1: don't know what you said to Golf and Bullnerando said, 5759 05:25:15,600 --> 05:25:17,760 Speaker 1: but whatever it was worked. He just convinced everyone to 5760 05:25:17,840 --> 05:25:22,520 Speaker 1: evacuate everyone, I asked, shocked, everyone except him and Fenric 5761 05:25:22,600 --> 05:25:26,360 Speaker 1: and Gorn. Which one's Gorn, the man who brought us tea? 5762 05:25:26,440 --> 05:25:28,880 Speaker 1: Do you remember him? He's old as ship, though, I said, 5763 05:25:28,960 --> 05:25:32,360 Speaker 1: because I have no fucking manners or common sense. Yeah, 5764 05:25:32,440 --> 05:25:34,760 Speaker 1: he's old as ship. He's a linguist by training. His 5765 05:25:34,840 --> 05:25:37,280 Speaker 1: main hobby is writing morbid poetry and dark speech, and 5766 05:25:37,759 --> 05:25:39,360 Speaker 1: when he can't figure out how to say something, he 5767 05:25:39,440 --> 05:25:41,840 Speaker 1: just makes up new words. He developed about a third 5768 05:25:41,880 --> 05:25:44,320 Speaker 1: of the language. Did all that ship before orc culture 5769 05:25:44,400 --> 05:25:47,360 Speaker 1: was even around. He's also a widower three times over. 5770 05:25:47,759 --> 05:25:50,000 Speaker 1: He doesn't give a shit about dying. His last chat 5771 05:25:50,040 --> 05:25:53,960 Speaker 1: book was called Soon I will return to the Earth. Oh, 5772 05:25:54,960 --> 05:25:57,720 Speaker 1: Gorn is going to die today. Golf and Bull and Fenric, 5773 05:25:57,800 --> 05:25:59,480 Speaker 1: they're going to hold the wall as long as they 5774 05:25:59,520 --> 05:26:01,920 Speaker 1: can in the fall. Back to the woods and you, 5775 05:26:02,120 --> 05:26:05,160 Speaker 1: I asked, I'm driving us out of here to another village. 5776 05:26:05,320 --> 05:26:08,880 Speaker 1: Then I'll take you home after that. I don't know, girl, 5777 05:26:09,320 --> 05:26:10,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. If I signed up for this, I 5778 05:26:10,919 --> 05:26:13,040 Speaker 1: might leave the woods, go back to being a vet tech, 5779 05:26:13,919 --> 05:26:16,359 Speaker 1: I just nodded. I was too biased to offer objective 5780 05:26:16,400 --> 05:26:19,360 Speaker 1: life advice. Oh, and golf and Ball said to give 5781 05:26:19,400 --> 05:26:21,720 Speaker 1: you this, He said, it's in case he dies. He says, 5782 05:26:21,800 --> 05:26:24,040 Speaker 1: you're right. You shouldn't have to write his obituary. So 5783 05:26:24,160 --> 05:26:27,160 Speaker 1: we wrote his own. She handed me a piece of paper. 5784 05:26:28,000 --> 05:26:29,760 Speaker 1: I piled into the back of the box truck with 5785 05:26:29,840 --> 05:26:33,120 Speaker 1: forty other people, many of them in tears, many of 5786 05:26:33,160 --> 05:26:37,000 Speaker 1: them in shock, and we drove away from Graymorrow. None 5787 05:26:37,040 --> 05:26:40,320 Speaker 1: of the three free orc survived the battle. Goren died 5788 05:26:40,440 --> 05:26:43,360 Speaker 1: and paled on a spear while holding the gate. Fedric 5789 05:26:43,440 --> 05:26:45,080 Speaker 1: was killed by an arrow that struck her in the 5790 05:26:45,120 --> 05:26:47,040 Speaker 1: back of the neck as she and golfing Bull ran 5791 05:26:47,840 --> 05:26:51,120 Speaker 1: Golfing Bull. Fenric's lover turned and stood his ground over 5792 05:26:51,160 --> 05:26:54,240 Speaker 1: her body. I didn't know any of that yet. I 5793 05:26:54,280 --> 05:26:57,760 Speaker 1: found out when Nearinda found out two days later. Maybe 5794 05:26:57,800 --> 05:26:59,640 Speaker 1: all three of them would have survived. If I hadn't 5795 05:26:59,640 --> 05:27:01,840 Speaker 1: in her ear, and they had all fought with equal numbers, 5796 05:27:02,320 --> 05:27:04,600 Speaker 1: maybe more of them would have died. Maybe I can 5797 05:27:04,680 --> 05:27:08,720 Speaker 1: forgive myself, Maybe there's nothing to forgive. In the back 5798 05:27:08,800 --> 05:27:11,080 Speaker 1: of the truck, by the light coming in through a crack, 5799 05:27:11,160 --> 05:27:13,759 Speaker 1: in the steel wall. I read Golf and Bull's Note 5800 05:27:15,200 --> 05:27:17,240 Speaker 1: all my life. I didn't give a shit about anything. 5801 05:27:17,560 --> 05:27:20,240 Speaker 1: I liked weed and metal in whatever counterculture trend was 5802 05:27:20,320 --> 05:27:22,640 Speaker 1: big in a given year, but my heart wasn't in it. 5803 05:27:23,000 --> 05:27:25,840 Speaker 1: I just went through the motions until I became an ORC, 5804 05:27:26,880 --> 05:27:28,680 Speaker 1: saying I'm an orc and meaning it. Isn't like a 5805 05:27:28,759 --> 05:27:31,320 Speaker 1: trans man saying he's a man and meaning it. Gender 5806 05:27:31,480 --> 05:27:33,879 Speaker 1: is a social construct that goes back as far as 5807 05:27:33,919 --> 05:27:37,040 Speaker 1: I understand, to the beginning of humanity. There has always 5808 05:27:37,080 --> 05:27:39,320 Speaker 1: been gender, and there have always been people who transgress 5809 05:27:39,400 --> 05:27:42,160 Speaker 1: the roles assigned to them at birth. An orc is 5810 05:27:42,200 --> 05:27:45,120 Speaker 1: a social construct that we just fucking made up. I mean, 5811 05:27:45,400 --> 05:27:47,480 Speaker 1: I guess the orc is an archetype too, but it's 5812 05:27:47,480 --> 05:27:51,400 Speaker 1: a fantasy archetype. We know what's make believe. Make believe 5813 05:27:51,520 --> 05:27:54,400 Speaker 1: is what gave my life meaning. I promise you that 5814 05:27:54,480 --> 05:27:56,520 Speaker 1: for me. The day we decided we were orcs was 5815 05:27:56,600 --> 05:27:59,320 Speaker 1: the first day that the sun shone benevolence upon the world. 5816 05:27:59,600 --> 05:28:02,160 Speaker 1: It was the first day that color radiated from everything 5817 05:28:02,240 --> 05:28:04,440 Speaker 1: I saw. It was the first day that the rain 5818 05:28:04,560 --> 05:28:07,120 Speaker 1: on my roof tapped out codes of meaning. It was 5819 05:28:07,200 --> 05:28:10,480 Speaker 1: the first day of my life, my real life, my 5820 05:28:10,600 --> 05:28:14,080 Speaker 1: first Also, I fell in love with the world. Everyone 5821 05:28:14,200 --> 05:28:17,400 Speaker 1: finds meaning in different ways. I found meaning by believing 5822 05:28:17,480 --> 05:28:20,000 Speaker 1: in some ship we made up and letting that be real. 5823 05:28:20,960 --> 05:28:25,040 Speaker 1: I was born Jason Sanchez. I died gulfing Bull. I'm 5824 05:28:25,080 --> 05:28:30,160 Speaker 1: not sorry. That was great that I mean, not my narration, 5825 05:28:30,280 --> 05:28:36,240 Speaker 1: the story. The story, not my narration. Mm hmm. The 5826 05:28:36,320 --> 05:28:38,759 Speaker 1: second way finished, we all just got that little smirk 5827 05:28:38,840 --> 05:28:43,320 Speaker 1: on our face, like that was delightful. Yeah, Margret, you're 5828 05:28:43,360 --> 05:28:47,880 Speaker 1: the best. Yeah. I mean, if I were going to 5829 05:28:47,960 --> 05:28:55,560 Speaker 1: be an orc, there would be rifles but problems. Yeah, 5830 05:28:55,640 --> 05:28:58,320 Speaker 1: this is absolutely This is like a really good example 5831 05:28:58,360 --> 05:29:00,040 Speaker 1: of what I mean that when I write utopia in 5832 05:29:00,120 --> 05:29:03,400 Speaker 1: fiction or like fiction about other societies, I'm not saying, hey, 5833 05:29:03,480 --> 05:29:06,000 Speaker 1: everyone go do this, or like this is what people 5834 05:29:06,040 --> 05:29:08,360 Speaker 1: should do. No, I mean I liked that. I like 5835 05:29:08,600 --> 05:29:11,359 Speaker 1: I like that I've had that experience in other cultures, 5836 05:29:11,440 --> 05:29:13,760 Speaker 1: you know, places like slab City and different kind of 5837 05:29:13,880 --> 05:29:15,880 Speaker 1: encampments and whatnot that I've spent a lot of time 5838 05:29:15,919 --> 05:29:18,640 Speaker 1: and as a journalist where it's like I'm fascinated by 5839 05:29:18,680 --> 05:29:22,199 Speaker 1: and I respect aspects of this, but like, I also 5840 05:29:22,320 --> 05:29:24,720 Speaker 1: think some of these things are that you're doing or 5841 05:29:24,800 --> 05:29:27,120 Speaker 1: dumb or I don't understand why you do it, or 5842 05:29:27,160 --> 05:29:30,200 Speaker 1: this isn't like you know, but you don't. Your notes 5843 05:29:30,280 --> 05:29:37,200 Speaker 1: don't matter. You know, that's not your job, although actually 5844 05:29:37,840 --> 05:29:40,680 Speaker 1: having an impact in that way is is kind of Yeah, 5845 05:29:41,560 --> 05:29:46,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. Somebody go, somebody go make an work village. Yeah, yeah, 5846 05:29:46,400 --> 05:29:48,480 Speaker 1: I'll go out there, I'll report on it. We'll go. 5847 05:29:48,800 --> 05:29:51,640 Speaker 1: It'll be fine. Don't take the band name all sort 5848 05:29:51,720 --> 05:29:55,840 Speaker 1: though I already stole that. Yeah, there's a number of 5849 05:29:55,919 --> 05:30:01,480 Speaker 1: dope band names in here. People should make orc folk. 5850 05:30:01,520 --> 05:30:05,280 Speaker 1: I'd be really excited to hear make orc folk abandon 5851 05:30:07,000 --> 05:30:15,000 Speaker 1: civilization to live as fantasy creatures. Um, fight fascists, all 5852 05:30:15,040 --> 05:30:18,880 Speaker 1: that good stuff. Yeah, Margaret, is there anything you'd like 5853 05:30:19,000 --> 05:30:22,840 Speaker 1: to plug? Well? I do have a new book out, 5854 05:30:23,120 --> 05:30:25,360 Speaker 1: or a reprint of an older book called A Country 5855 05:30:25,400 --> 05:30:28,320 Speaker 1: a Ghost, that is a more directly utopian book. It's 5856 05:30:28,320 --> 05:30:32,919 Speaker 1: out from a K Press. Came out last month, and um, 5857 05:30:33,840 --> 05:30:35,640 Speaker 1: I think that's it. That's the main thing. Oh, you 5858 05:30:35,680 --> 05:30:37,920 Speaker 1: can support me on Patreon, although it's no longer supporting 5859 05:30:37,960 --> 05:30:40,560 Speaker 1: me on Patreon, it's supporting a publishing thing that I'm 5860 05:30:40,960 --> 05:30:43,680 Speaker 1: starting back up with people called Strangers and Entangled Wilderness 5861 05:30:44,160 --> 05:30:47,120 Speaker 1: and it will publish fiction and memoir and like the 5862 05:30:47,200 --> 05:30:49,880 Speaker 1: kind of like more culture side of radical politics and 5863 05:30:49,960 --> 05:30:55,000 Speaker 1: less the like theory and stuff. What's the patreon patreon 5864 05:30:55,120 --> 05:30:57,759 Speaker 1: dot com slash Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness? Because why 5865 05:30:57,800 --> 05:31:01,480 Speaker 1: would I pick short names for things? Ye do that? Yeah? 5866 05:31:02,080 --> 05:31:06,840 Speaker 1: And we have we have a live show coming up right, Robert, Uh, 5867 05:31:07,240 --> 05:31:10,000 Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like us. It's a virtual live show 5868 05:31:10,160 --> 05:31:12,920 Speaker 1: of for Behind the Bastards. Put our friend prop that's 5869 05:31:13,000 --> 05:31:19,720 Speaker 1: on Thursday, February allegedly moment House dot com slash Behind 5870 05:31:19,720 --> 05:31:25,960 Speaker 1: the Bastards. I can't confirm or deny that. Okay, you've 5871 05:31:25,960 --> 05:31:29,920 Speaker 1: gotta a lawyer on here before you can. Sure. Yeah, 5872 05:31:30,280 --> 05:31:33,280 Speaker 1: let's get Moira on the horn and where come on 5873 05:31:33,400 --> 05:31:37,160 Speaker 1: the horn and tell us if we're actually doing this thing? That? Yeah? 5874 05:31:37,200 --> 05:31:42,120 Speaker 1: Are we? Also? Are we alive? That's another question? How 5875 05:31:42,200 --> 05:31:45,360 Speaker 1: I texture that most days? Um? All right, well, thank 5876 05:31:45,440 --> 05:31:47,960 Speaker 1: you Margaret, and thank you all for tuning in in 5877 05:31:48,080 --> 05:31:58,200 Speaker 1: the first year of the rest of the next year. Hey, 5878 05:31:58,320 --> 05:32:01,440 Speaker 1: we'll be back Monday with more episodes every leek from 5879 05:32:01,480 --> 05:32:04,960 Speaker 1: now until the death of the universe. It could happen 5880 05:32:05,000 --> 05:32:07,280 Speaker 1: here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more 5881 05:32:07,360 --> 05:32:10,120 Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 5882 05:32:10,160 --> 05:32:12,000 Speaker 1: media dot com or check us out on the I 5883 05:32:12,120 --> 05:32:15,360 Speaker 1: Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 5884 05:32:15,960 --> 05:32:18,040 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could happen here, updated 5885 05:32:18,160 --> 05:32:21,600 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 5886 05:32:21,640 --> 05:32:26,840 Speaker 1: for listening. I'm Jake Halburn, host of deep Cover. Our 5887 05:32:26,880 --> 05:32:29,240 Speaker 1: new season is about a lawyer who helped the mob 5888 05:32:29,520 --> 05:32:33,079 Speaker 1: run Chicago. He bribed judges and even helped a hit 5889 05:32:33,160 --> 05:32:36,520 Speaker 1: man walk free until one day when he started talking 5890 05:32:36,600 --> 05:32:39,440 Speaker 1: with the FBI and promised that he could take the 5891 05:32:39,520 --> 05:32:42,600 Speaker 1: mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure 5892 05:32:42,640 --> 05:32:44,920 Speaker 1: out why he flipped and what he was really after. 5893 05:32:45,560 --> 05:32:47,920 Speaker 1: Listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, 5894 05:32:48,000 --> 05:32:55,880 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Gangster 5895 05:32:55,960 --> 05:32:59,760 Speaker 1: Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves around underworld, 5896 05:33:00,200 --> 05:33:03,680 Speaker 1: the criminals and entertainers into victims, crime and law enforcement. 5897 05:33:03,759 --> 05:33:06,719 Speaker 1: We cover all facets of the game gainst The Chronicles 5898 05:33:06,800 --> 05:33:10,680 Speaker 1: podcast doesn't glorify for motilised activities. We just discussed the 5899 05:33:10,759 --> 05:33:13,800 Speaker 1: ramifications and repercussions of these activities. Because at the law. 5900 05:33:14,120 --> 05:33:16,560 Speaker 1: If you played gamester games, you are ultimately rewarded with 5901 05:33:16,680 --> 05:33:20,520 Speaker 1: Gainster Prizes. Our Heart Radios number one for podcasts, but 5902 05:33:20,640 --> 05:33:23,359 Speaker 1: don't take our award for it. Find against the Chronicles 5903 05:33:23,440 --> 05:33:25,800 Speaker 1: podcast and I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get 5904 05:33:25,840 --> 05:33:32,600 Speaker 1: your podcast I'm Jake Halbern, host of deep Cover. Our 5905 05:33:32,680 --> 05:33:35,040 Speaker 1: new season is about a lawyer who helped the mob 5906 05:33:35,320 --> 05:33:38,840 Speaker 1: run Chicago. He bribed judges and even helped a hit 5907 05:33:38,960 --> 05:33:42,280 Speaker 1: man walk free, until one day when he started talking 5908 05:33:42,360 --> 05:33:45,200 Speaker 1: with the FBI and promised that he could take the 5909 05:33:45,320 --> 05:33:48,360 Speaker 1: mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure 5910 05:33:48,400 --> 05:33:50,680 Speaker 1: out why he flipped and what he was really after. 5911 05:33:51,360 --> 05:33:53,680 Speaker 1: Listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, 5912 05:33:53,800 --> 05:33:56,759 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.