WEBVTT - #298 Guest Hosts David Rudolf & Sonya Pfeiffer with Michael Peterson 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.560 I'm Jason Flahm. Through this podcast, I aim to highlight 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:06.480 how frequently our criminal legal system shatters the lives of 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:10.879 innocent people. Whether junk science is introduced to trial, police 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:15.400 or prosecutorial misconduct, or simply a misidentification. Each story is 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.520 devastating on its own, but when we zoom out and 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:20.720 take in the sheer breadth of the issue, we can 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.680 see a pattern forming across our entire system. Who better 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.960 to take us on that journey than the brilliant journalists 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.640 and writers who regularly cover these stories. 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:40.440 Kathleen Peterson was found by her husband, Michael Peterson, bleeding 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.680 and struggling to breathe at the bottom of a staircase. 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.400 It was the middle of the night on December ninth, 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.760 two thousand and one. Michael called nine one one and 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:54.160 held her as she lay downing. When emergency services arrived, 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:58.720 there was blood all over the walls, the floor, and 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:03.160 on Michael's clothing, which led Durham Police Detective Art Holland 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:08.080 to quickly assume this was a murder. Michael became a 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:12.199 suspect in Kathleen's death, and Durham Police pursued this theory 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:16.759 to the exclusion of all other evidence. After a highly 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:21.240 publicized trial, Peterson was convicted and sentenced to life in 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:26.280 prison without parole. His attorney, David Rudolph, was able to 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.480 overturn the conviction eight years later, and Michael was released. 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:34.440 After waiting for a new trial for five years and 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.840 after turning seventy years old, Michael was tired of fighting. 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.360 He decided to take an Alford plea, a plea where 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:47.800 the defendant maintains his innocence but admits that the evidence 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:52.680 presented could result in a jury finding him guilty. This 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.960 is probably a case you've heard about and might already 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.600 have an opinion on. There is a popular Netflix documentary 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.360 called This Staircase, and this year HBO produced a mini 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:07.800 series of the same name. But despite all that coverage 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.360 and drama, Michael Peterson has refused to speak to the 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:15.120 media about the case until recently, and that's why we 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.720 wanted to speak with him today to give him the 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:21.800 opportunity to tell his side. It's an important story that 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.639 highlights so many of the problems with the American criminal 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:44.280 justice system. This is wrongful conviction. Good afternoon. I'm Sonja Pfeiffer. 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.680 I'm a criminal defense and civil rights attorney based in Toronto, 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:51.360 Ontario and Charlotte, North Carolina, and co host of the 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:53.919 podcast Abuse of Power on Audible. 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.440 And I'm David Rudolph. I'm also the co host of 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:02.440 Abusive Power with Sonia, who is my wife and law partner. 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.880 Yes, for those who don't know, we are married. And 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.320 we met while I was a television reporter in roleig 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.160 Durham assigned to cover the Peterson case, and you were 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.480 representing Michael, and Michael is here with us today to 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:17.639 talk about this case that really changed all of our lives. 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:22.639 Hi, Michael Peterson, I'm in Durham, North Carolina, almost seventy 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.560 nine years old, still a fellon, and still a writer. 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.080 Let's jump right in, Michael, because you mentioned two things 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:32.720 that I think people know about you already, That you're 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:36.000 a writer and that, yes, you are a convicted felon. 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:38.960 But before we talk about how you moved to Durham 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:41.960 and then met Mary Kathleen, you had a whole other life. 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.119 I don't think a lot of people know about who 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.920 Michael Peterson was before all of this. Can you talk 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:50.480 a little bit about how you grew up. 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.800 I was born in Tennessee. I think I stayed there 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:58.760 maybe four weeks. My father is a military officer. 0:03:59.200 --> 0:03:59.760 We moved. 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:04.760 I don't think I stayed in a particular grade more 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:09.000 than one year. It was a very what can I say, 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:14.280 transient childhood, but very fulfilling, and I loved it. I 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:16.400 wouldn't trade it for anything, because I lived in so 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:17.480 many different places. 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.480 So you went to Duke for undergrad I mean I 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.360 have to ask tar heels or devils. 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:30.040 Oh please, you do not want to profanity podcast here. 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:35.000 So after university you enrolled in the military, and by 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.840 this point you had also married your first wife, Patty, 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.279 and you and Patty also lived overseas. Tell me about 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.000 that part of your life. 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:49.760 Well, she is military also, and god we lived Germany 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:56.600 with Japan, traveled everywhere together for many, many many We 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.840 were married twenty five years, and she unfortunately last year 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:04.000 a massive heart attack, very very very sad day. 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.000 Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I did hear about that, 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:09.279 and I know David spoke to you. But yeah, you 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.080 and Patty have a special relationship. And then you and 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.159 Patty had two kids together. Tell me about your two. 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:19.360 Sons, Clayton and Todd. They were both born in Germany. 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.040 So I want to talk about Germany because as we 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.560 continue talking today, that's going to resurface, as you know well, 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.760 when it comes to your trial. But in Germany, you 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:35.280 and Patty became parents a second time. Explained to our 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:39.840 listeners who George and Elizabeth Ratliffe are and how it 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.200 came to be that you and Patty were the guardians 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:44.200 of their daughters. 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.080 When we first met Liz, oh she was a teacher 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.880 and Patty was a teacher, and they became very very 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:55.560 close friends. And then we met George and he really 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.599 was a wonderful guy. George died in nineteen eighty three, 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.480 was on a mission, the invasion of Granada, and he died. 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.479 And then Liz was left with two very small, very 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:13.320 small children, and she had a nobody knew at the time, 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:17.479 a serious medical condition. She was suffering from von Villebrunt's disease. 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:21.400 And I think that the stress of raising two small children, 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.640 the loss of her husband, it was too much for 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:28.479 her and she died. And unknown to me, the military 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.880 flew up and said, did you know that George had 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.320 asked you to adopt his children or take care of 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.880 the children if anything had happened to him, And I said, no, 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:39.360 you talk to me about that. He said, well, it's 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.600 in the will and I said, oh, okay. So then 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.799 and Liz had the same will, and when she died 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:50.760 inteen on nineteen eighty seven, I became the defective guardians 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:52.440 of Margaret and Martha. 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.159 You and Patty were still together at the time, Is 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:55.560 that right? 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:55.880 Oh? 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:56.800 Yes? Yes? 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.679 What was it like bringing those two young girls into 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:01.320 your family? 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.360 I think it was more of a strain on Patty, 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.720 and that's I think, really essentially what broke up our 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.520 marriage is that Patty, and I don't mean this in 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:15.160 any negative way whatsoever, she felt it would be better 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:19.880 if others raised Margaret and Martha one of their relatives, 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.960 and so I said, no, I'll keep the children, and 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:27.320 so I raised them, and then I'd met Kathleen and 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:29.120 that became another journey. 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:31.640 Let's talk about Kathleen. How did you two. 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:36.120 Meet Kathleen was when we came back from Germany with 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:39.800 the two girls. They were four and five at the time, 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:45.440 I think, and Kathleen and her husband Fred were living 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.600 down the block in another house, and we met at 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:53.080 Margaret's fifth birthday party because Caitlin was the same age, 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.960 and we just became very close after that, more and 0:07:58.040 --> 0:07:58.600 more close. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:04.400 And you mentioned Caitlyn. Caitlyn is Kathleen's daughter from her 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:09.200 first marriage, right, correct, And that's Caitlyn Atwater. And how 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.400 did your relationship with Kathleen develop? 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:19.040 Uh, Well, it's one of these neighborhood stories. And we 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.520 just saw more of each other and realized that we 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:23.840 were very much suited for one another. 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:28.160 And over time your relationship really became something quite special. 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:30.480 I mean, something that I think other people would say 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:32.679 they envied in a relationship. Would you agree with that? 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.199 Oh? I think so. I mean we had a great relationship. 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:41.400 She was Oh god, she was well sexual and funny 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.760 and smart. She was used to say that, for God's sake, 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:50.040 don't tell anybody your college board scores. I don't want 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:53.480 anybody to know I'm living for someone so stupid. And 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:57.240 it was just fun. Every day with her was fun. 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.959 So, David, I want switch and talk with you now 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:07.800 and move to Kathleen's death. So it was called a crime, 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.959 but let's start with the death on December ninth, two 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:15.839 thousand and one, when Kathleen was found by Michael and Michael, 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:17.920 I'll ask you about that in a little bit. But 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.000 December ninth, two thousand and one, Kathleen is found inside 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.480 the home she shared with Michael and Forest Hills. Can 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:29.040 you talk about what was known at that time and 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:33.559 initially how the discovery of Kathleen's body was treated. 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.040 I think initially, at least in the press, it was 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:43.720 just treated as a prominent author's wife was found dead 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:48.080 in their home. And I don't think initially, at least 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:53.200 for the public, there was any connection to it being 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:57.120 a crime that changed relatively quickly. 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.280 And David, I'm going to ask you to describe the 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.880 scene a little bit, because, as we'll talk about later, 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:11.560 what the scene looked like became a fact that really 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.760 influenced investigators. So could you describe that. 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:19.880 Sure, because it was a horrendous looking scene. You know 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.320 when you walked in and I did early on to 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.400 meet with Michael. We did not meet in a diner 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:31.640 eating a Pistromi sandwich, as the HBO series indicated. But 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:36.000 when I came in, you know, Michael showed me the 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.720 scene and there was blood all over the walls and 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:44.440 all over the floor, you know, dry blood, and you know, 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:49.920 the immediate reaction when you saw that was Wow, something 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:54.160 really terrible happened here. But you know what I didn't 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.360 realize when I first saw that, and obviously what the 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:01.439 police didn't realize when they first saw it, was that 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:08.320 the scalp bleeds incredibly. It is the most vascuarized part 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.440 of a human body. And so when somebody is bleeding 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.960 out from deep wounds in their scalp, there is a 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:20.120 massive amount of blood. And the massive amount of blood 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:24.200 was not indicative of what caused the wounds. It was 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.760 just indicative of the fact that the wounds bled a lot, 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:32.720 that she was conscious for some period of time, and 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:35.760 therefore there was blood all over. But when you first 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:39.040 looked at it, it looked like a crime scene. I 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:39.640 mean it did. 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:44.600 And Michael, you were the first one to see that scene. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:51.400 What do you remember about walking upon that scene, that 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.760 the blood seen? Kathleen there? What do you remember about that? 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:57.760 When I came into the we'd been at the pool 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.280 and then I came into the house. Uh, she had 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.880 a teleconference the next morning, So I stayed outside with 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.880 the dogs for a while and then came in and then 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.559 I went to go in the back staircase and there 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:13.920 she was lying there at the bottom of the stairs, 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.520 and I you know, I saw the blood, but I 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.640 was not it didn't I didn't focus so much on 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:23.480 the blood as I focused on Kathleen lying on the ground. 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.439 And that's when I called nine one one and infamous 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.480 and nine one one call, and you know, I said, 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.040 she fell down the stairs. And people asked me afterwards, well, 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.200 why do you think she fell down the stairs as well? 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.400 If you find somebody at the bottom of the stairs, 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:42.880 or obvious thought is that she must have fallen. And 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:44.360 that's what I did think. 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.440 Was it surreal though, I mean to come upon that 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.079 after you had had this evening together by the pool, 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:52.839 I mean describe that. 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.080 It was one of those what you know, what you know, 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:02.000 what's going on? What happened? Uh, there's she was talking 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.800 and alive, and then suddenly I walk in and she's 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:10.440 she was dying. She was still breathing faintly, faintly, and 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.600 you know, I'd seen enough death in Vietnam to know 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:18.440 that she was dying, and so I, you know, I 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:21.400 put her down brand of the call nine one one, 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.880 ran to open the door for them and then was 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:32.400 holding her when empt came in. And surreal, well, just shocking, 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.040 I think is the better word. 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.240 And so you just described you coming to Kathleen and 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:41.720 holding Kathleen and calling out on one so you yourself, of 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.040 course you're now covered in blood. 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.760 Right, yeah, I suppose. I mean again, the blood was 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:53.000 not a significant thing, you know, to me, that was it. 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:57.120 I mean, what significant was that Kathleen was dying. 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:01.040 David. Let's let's talk now about the investigation. Right, So 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.920 we sort of set that scene. Michael calls nine to 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:09.920 one one. Eight minutes later, paramedics show up. And then what. 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.360 Well, after the paramedics showed up, First of all, there 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:20.200 was no protecting the scene. People were walking in and out. 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:25.280 The police showed up, and Art Holland has said that 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.160 he walked into the scene and immediately came to the 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:33.400 conclusion that this was a crime. You know, he reacted 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.920 to the amount of blood at the scene, and so 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:44.520 we have a classic case of confirmation bias and tunnel vision. 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:51.560 He immediately forms his conclusion that there's a murder here, 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:55.080 that there's a crime here. Who's the only person in 0:14:55.120 --> 0:15:00.480 the house. Well, it's Michael Peterson. You know. The the 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:04.040 assumption in these situations is that the spouse must be 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.920 the perpetrator. And that's where they went. It was supposed 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.440 to be an investigation of what happened here, and instead 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.880 there was an assumption about what happened, and then the 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:18.360 focus became Michael is the perpetrator because there was no 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:19.440 one else to blame. 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.520 And I want to break down for listeners what you 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.040 said about tunnel vision and confirmation bias, because those are 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:30.480 two different things, but they really work hand in hand. Right, 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.160 So tunnel vision, that's what you're talking about. Art Holland 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.920 comes in, he sees blood. In his mind, he thinks 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.360 this is a homicide, so now he is focused only 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.560 on that homicide. Everything else is blacked out, Like when 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:47.120 you enter a tunnel confirmation bias is then processing all 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.920 of that information that you find through that lens, through 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.800 that tunnel vision lens. And that is the way the 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.680 investigation continued, not just with Art Holland, right, But then 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.080 they have a so called blood spout expert I hate 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.760 to even use that word, in Dwayne Deever who also 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:06.040 shows up on the scene. 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:06.360 Right. 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.400 Well, he shows up that very night, a little bit 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:16.800 later on, and he's infected by Art Holland's tunnel vision 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:22.200 and Art Holland's confirmation bias. So he's there not to 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.680 really explore what the blood spatter means, assuming that one 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:31.720 can even get any sort of information from that that's worthwhile. 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:36.680 He's there to again assist Art Holland in proving that 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.960 this was a murder and that Michael Peterson did it, 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:45.920 and so he engages in what he calls pulling strings. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.479 David, let me ask you to explain that pulling strings 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.440 and point of origin. I know it's very familiar to you, 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:57.760 but explain for our listeners what that means, what it 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:00.280 is that Dwayne Deever was trying to eve. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:05.479 When you have a massive blood spatter and you're trying 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:11.520 to determine from where that spatter originated, you can take 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:15.040 a look at the angles of the spatter on the 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:23.160 walls and work backwards from there with various spatter selections 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:28.600 and try to find what is called an area of origin. 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:33.720 And that's the best that you can do. The science 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.119 is absolutely clear that yes, you can do that to 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.959 find an area of origin, but you can't do that 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:45.320 to find a specific point of origin. The area of 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.720 origin is going to be like twelve by eighteen inches. 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.560 And the problem was if he had done that properly, 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.280 the area of origin would have been the walls and 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.879 the steps. Well, that wouldn't have helped our Holland's case 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.320 at all. So instead what he had to do is 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:08.560 find what he called points of origin, and that was 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:14.720 the first step in essence framing Michael Peterson for this murder. 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.080 And when we talk about origin, a point of origin 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:21.960 or an area of origin, what you're talking about is impact. 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.720 If it were a fall, at what point on the 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.920 stair did her head hit at what place on the wall. 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.399 That's what you're talking about. 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.879 Right Exactly where did the blood start to flow. 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.240 And you mentioned Art Holland coming back with a search warrant, 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:40.119 that's another thing falling right into his tunnel vision. And 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.879 this is where he went out, and he got a 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:47.200 search warrant right away that evening, that very evening, right. 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:51.400 Oh, within an hour, within less than an hour, that's 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:52.320 where he was headed. 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.119 So let's talk about the injuries, David, because of course 0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:01.680 there was an autopsy, and the autopsy found that this 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.320 was blunt force trauma. 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:10.520 Actually not the autopsy. Initially, what Deba Ratish found initially 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.880 was that the cause of death was a loss of 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:20.240 blood exanguination, and then we found out later from going 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:25.000 through the file, the chief medical examiner came in and 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:29.879 essentially told her, no, you need to put on the 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.040 autopsy that the cause of death was blunt force trauma. 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:37.040 That was not the cause of death. We all agree 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:41.359 that what caused Kathleen's death was the loss of blood. 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.400 So why all of a sudden do we have blunt 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.480 force trauma as the cause of death. That is a 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:51.960 question that I don't think has ever been satisfactorily answered. 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:55.000 Well, and you know, you talk about tunnel vision, you 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.960 talk about it infecting other people. This is yet another example. 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:03.000 So initially Debora Ratic says cause of death is blood loss. 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:06.800 Then she later changes it to blunt force trauma. But 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.600 there were problems with that being the cause of death, 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:15.680 right because blunt force trauma usually has some well known 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:21.239 associated conditions, right like subdural hematoma, edema. None of that 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:22.000 existed here. 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:26.960 Kathleen didn't have any of the injuries that are normally 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:31.639 associated with blunt force trauma. She had no injuries to 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:35.359 her brain, There was no subdual there were no contusions 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:38.000 to the brain, there were no fractures on her arms. 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:44.600 There was nothing that was consistent with blunt force trauma. 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:48.040 So when you look at that, you say to yourself, Okay, 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.640 how is that possible? How is it possible that none 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:55.239 of the things that I know as a lawyer are 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:59.679 normally associated with blunt force trauma are there? And so 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.640 I say, okay, well, let's take a look at all 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:05.959 the autopsies going back ten years and see if we 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:10.840 can find even one other, even one other which had 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:14.040 none of those injuries. And so that's what we did, 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:18.919 and in fact, there was not a single other blunt 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:23.560 force trauma death that didn't have at least one and 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:29.119 often several of those kinds of injuries. Kathleen Peterson was 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:33.440 the only case in the previous ten years where they 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.840 claimed blunt force trauma was the cause of death, but 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:39.200 there were none of those associated injuries. 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.640 And we'll talk about the trial in a little bit, 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:46.000 but back to the investigation. Michael, do you remember talking 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:50.880 to investigators that night on December ninth, two thousand and one, Oh, yes, I'd. 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:55.480 Be right away. You know. They came in and my 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:58.840 son Todd arrived with his girlfriend Nigman at a party 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:05.040 rated everybody, and it was Todd who instantly simply because 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.560 of that and also the way that they were just acting. 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:11.119 He picked up right away. He said, Dad, they're trying 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:16.399 to get you. And that didn't make any sense to me. 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:19.440 Number One, I was in shock and tu but why? 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:22.080 So he called my brother who was an attorney in 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:27.200 Reno and for which later was like, oh, we lawyered up. 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:31.960 But my brother Bill talked to Holland and said, do 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:35.520 not question Michael Peterson. I would have been happy to 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.240 answer anything. I had to cooperate it. That's the only 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:41.960 reason why not. And Holland kept trying to do that, 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:46.600 put his arm around me, and Todd said no, Dad, no, no, 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:50.280 don't talk. Not just snap me out of it. And 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:55.800 I realized, oh yeah, they really are definitely out to 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:56.199 get me. 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:11.400 So let's talk about your arrest now. Because it wasn't immediate. 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:13.600 I mean, this was December ninth, two thousand and one, 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:17.480 but sounds like you were well aware that eyes were 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:22.520 on you. Tell me about when you got arrested, what happened. 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:26.920 David wanted me to go to Charlotte or at least 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:29.200 get out of Durham because he knew the arrest was coming. 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:32.359 But all I could think was the ray Caruth case 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:34.640 in which she had fled. As a matter of fact, 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:36.600 I said, no, if they're going to arrest me, they're 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:40.000 going to arrest me, I'll surrender if this is what 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:44.160 they want. So I made the decision that I would 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:48.520 go to the courthouse and surrender for that, and I 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:51.399 was put in jail for two weeks. 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:54.800 David, what do you remember about that, because by now 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:58.000 you were hired, right, I was. 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:01.800 Hired relatively early on, before the case even went to 0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:05.520 a grand jury. What I was originally talking to Michael 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:07.919 about was the fact that I was afraid that the 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:11.320 police are going to just swoop in before we had 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:16.720 a chance to arrange a surrender. Because surrenders get arranged. 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:20.880 I was able to reach the district attorney's office. We 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:24.280 were able to arrange a time for Michael to show 0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:28.280 up and surrender himself. And part the reason to do 0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:32.080 that is because it helps to set up the bail situation, 0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:35.239 and eventually we were able to get a judge to 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:38.880 set a bond for Michael that Michael could make, which 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:43.000 is an enormously helpful thing. If your client is in 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:46.400 it makes the case much more difficult to defend. 0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:50.359 So December twentieth two thousand and one is when Michael 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:55.000 was charged with first degree murder and then released in January. 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:58.800 So now's January two thousand and two. The trial is 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:02.479 a little more than a year in two thousand and three, David, 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:06.960 can you talk about the two theories at trial? What 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:09.119 was the state's case? What was your case? 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:14.280 Our case was sort of set from the very beginning 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:19.199 when Michael said she's fallen down the stairs, because that 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:23.680 was the logical conclusion. Everything that Michael told me from 0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:27.560 the first day that I met him always checked out. 0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:30.520 And so yeah, I would go and talk with Michael 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:33.240 and he says, well, you know, we were watching a movie, 0:25:33.320 --> 0:25:38.200 America's Sweethearts, and we get the receipt from Blockbuster which 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:41.800 shows that he rented that movie that day. He says, well, 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:46.760 Todd and his friend the Doctor, stopped by the house 0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:50.560 around ten o'clock on their way to a party. So 0:25:50.640 --> 0:25:55.919