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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flahm. Through this podcast, I aim to highlight

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Speaker 1: how frequently our criminal legal system shatters the lives of

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Speaker 1: innocent people. Whether junk science is introduced to trial, police

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Speaker 1: or prosecutorial misconduct, or simply a misidentification. Each story is

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Speaker 1: devastating on its own, but when we zoom out and

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Speaker 1: take in the sheer breadth of the issue, we can

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Speaker 1: see a pattern forming across our entire system. Who better

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Speaker 1: to take us on that journey than the brilliant journalists

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Speaker 1: and writers who regularly cover these stories.

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Speaker 2: Kathleen Peterson was found by her husband, Michael Peterson, bleeding

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Speaker 2: and struggling to breathe at the bottom of a staircase.

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Speaker 2: It was the middle of the night on December ninth,

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Speaker 2: two thousand and one. Michael called nine one one and

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Speaker 2: held her as she lay downing. When emergency services arrived,

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Speaker 2: there was blood all over the walls, the floor, and

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Speaker 2: on Michael's clothing, which led Durham Police Detective Art Holland

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Speaker 2: to quickly assume this was a murder. Michael became a

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Speaker 2: suspect in Kathleen's death, and Durham Police pursued this theory

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Speaker 2: to the exclusion of all other evidence. After a highly

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Speaker 2: publicized trial, Peterson was convicted and sentenced to life in

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Speaker 2: prison without parole. His attorney, David Rudolph, was able to

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Speaker 2: overturn the conviction eight years later, and Michael was released.

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Speaker 2: After waiting for a new trial for five years and

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Speaker 2: after turning seventy years old, Michael was tired of fighting.

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Speaker 2: He decided to take an Alford plea, a plea where

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Speaker 2: the defendant maintains his innocence but admits that the evidence

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Speaker 2: presented could result in a jury finding him guilty. This

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Speaker 2: is probably a case you've heard about and might already

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Speaker 2: have an opinion on. There is a popular Netflix documentary

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Speaker 2: called This Staircase, and this year HBO produced a mini

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Speaker 2: series of the same name. But despite all that coverage

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Speaker 2: and drama, Michael Peterson has refused to speak to the

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Speaker 2: media about the case until recently, and that's why we

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Speaker 2: wanted to speak with him today to give him the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to tell his side. It's an important story that

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Speaker 2: highlights so many of the problems with the American criminal

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Speaker 2: justice system. This is wrongful conviction. Good afternoon. I'm Sonja Pfeiffer.

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Speaker 2: I'm a criminal defense and civil rights attorney based in Toronto,

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Speaker 2: Ontario and Charlotte, North Carolina, and co host of the

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Speaker 2: podcast Abuse of Power on Audible.

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Speaker 3: And I'm David Rudolph. I'm also the co host of

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Speaker 3: Abusive Power with Sonia, who is my wife and law partner.

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Speaker 2: Yes, for those who don't know, we are married. And

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Speaker 2: we met while I was a television reporter in roleig

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Speaker 2: Durham assigned to cover the Peterson case, and you were

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Speaker 2: representing Michael, and Michael is here with us today to

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Speaker 2: talk about this case that really changed all of our lives.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Michael Peterson, I'm in Durham, North Carolina, almost seventy

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Speaker 4: nine years old, still a fellon, and still a writer.

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Speaker 2: Let's jump right in, Michael, because you mentioned two things

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Speaker 2: that I think people know about you already, That you're

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Speaker 2: a writer and that, yes, you are a convicted felon.

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Speaker 2: But before we talk about how you moved to Durham

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Speaker 2: and then met Mary Kathleen, you had a whole other life.

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Speaker 2: I don't think a lot of people know about who

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Speaker 2: Michael Peterson was before all of this. Can you talk

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Speaker 2: a little bit about how you grew up.

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Speaker 4: I was born in Tennessee. I think I stayed there

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Speaker 4: maybe four weeks. My father is a military officer.

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Speaker 3: We moved.

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Speaker 4: I don't think I stayed in a particular grade more

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Speaker 4: than one year. It was a very what can I say,

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Speaker 4: transient childhood, but very fulfilling, and I loved it. I

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Speaker 4: wouldn't trade it for anything, because I lived in so

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Speaker 4: many different places.

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Speaker 2: So you went to Duke for undergrad I mean I

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Speaker 2: have to ask tar heels or devils.

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Speaker 4: Oh please, you do not want to profanity podcast here.

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Speaker 2: So after university you enrolled in the military, and by

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Speaker 2: this point you had also married your first wife, Patty,

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Speaker 2: and you and Patty also lived overseas. Tell me about

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Speaker 2: that part of your life.

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Speaker 4: Well, she is military also, and god we lived Germany

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Speaker 4: with Japan, traveled everywhere together for many, many many We

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Speaker 4: were married twenty five years, and she unfortunately last year

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Speaker 4: a massive heart attack, very very very sad day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I did hear about that,

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Speaker 2: and I know David spoke to you. But yeah, you

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Speaker 2: and Patty have a special relationship. And then you and

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Speaker 2: Patty had two kids together. Tell me about your two.

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Speaker 4: Sons, Clayton and Todd. They were both born in Germany.

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Speaker 2: So I want to talk about Germany because as we

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Speaker 2: continue talking today, that's going to resurface, as you know well,

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Speaker 2: when it comes to your trial. But in Germany, you

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Speaker 2: and Patty became parents a second time. Explained to our

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Speaker 2: listeners who George and Elizabeth Ratliffe are and how it

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Speaker 2: came to be that you and Patty were the guardians

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Speaker 2: of their daughters.

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Speaker 4: When we first met Liz, oh she was a teacher

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Speaker 4: and Patty was a teacher, and they became very very

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Speaker 4: close friends. And then we met George and he really

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Speaker 4: was a wonderful guy. George died in nineteen eighty three,

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Speaker 4: was on a mission, the invasion of Granada, and he died.

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Speaker 4: And then Liz was left with two very small, very

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Speaker 4: small children, and she had a nobody knew at the time,

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Speaker 4: a serious medical condition. She was suffering from von Villebrunt's disease.

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Speaker 4: And I think that the stress of raising two small children,

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Speaker 4: the loss of her husband, it was too much for

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Speaker 4: her and she died. And unknown to me, the military

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Speaker 4: flew up and said, did you know that George had

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Speaker 4: asked you to adopt his children or take care of

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Speaker 4: the children if anything had happened to him, And I said, no,

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Speaker 4: you talk to me about that. He said, well, it's

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Speaker 4: in the will and I said, oh, okay. So then

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Speaker 4: and Liz had the same will, and when she died

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Speaker 4: inteen on nineteen eighty seven, I became the defective guardians

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Speaker 4: of Margaret and Martha.

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Speaker 2: You and Patty were still together at the time, Is

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Speaker 2: that right?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yes? Yes?

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Speaker 2: What was it like bringing those two young girls into

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Speaker 2: your family?

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Speaker 4: I think it was more of a strain on Patty,

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Speaker 4: and that's I think, really essentially what broke up our

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Speaker 4: marriage is that Patty, and I don't mean this in

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Speaker 4: any negative way whatsoever, she felt it would be better

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Speaker 4: if others raised Margaret and Martha one of their relatives,

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Speaker 4: and so I said, no, I'll keep the children, and

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Speaker 4: so I raised them, and then I'd met Kathleen and

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Speaker 4: that became another journey.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about Kathleen. How did you two.

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Speaker 4: Meet Kathleen was when we came back from Germany with

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Speaker 4: the two girls. They were four and five at the time,

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Speaker 4: I think, and Kathleen and her husband Fred were living

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Speaker 4: down the block in another house, and we met at

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Speaker 4: Margaret's fifth birthday party because Caitlin was the same age,

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Speaker 4: and we just became very close after that, more and

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Speaker 4: more close.

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Speaker 2: And you mentioned Caitlyn. Caitlyn is Kathleen's daughter from her

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Speaker 2: first marriage, right, correct, And that's Caitlyn Atwater. And how

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Speaker 2: did your relationship with Kathleen develop?

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Speaker 4: Uh, Well, it's one of these neighborhood stories. And we

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Speaker 4: just saw more of each other and realized that we

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Speaker 4: were very much suited for one another.

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Speaker 2: And over time your relationship really became something quite special.

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Speaker 2: I mean, something that I think other people would say

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Speaker 2: they envied in a relationship. Would you agree with that?

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Speaker 4: Oh? I think so. I mean we had a great relationship.

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Speaker 4: She was Oh god, she was well sexual and funny

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Speaker 4: and smart. She was used to say that, for God's sake,

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Speaker 4: don't tell anybody your college board scores. I don't want

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Speaker 4: anybody to know I'm living for someone so stupid. And

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Speaker 4: it was just fun. Every day with her was fun.

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Speaker 2: So, David, I want switch and talk with you now

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Speaker 2: and move to Kathleen's death. So it was called a crime,

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Speaker 2: but let's start with the death on December ninth, two

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Speaker 2: thousand and one, when Kathleen was found by Michael and Michael,

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Speaker 2: I'll ask you about that in a little bit. But

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Speaker 2: December ninth, two thousand and one, Kathleen is found inside

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Speaker 2: the home she shared with Michael and Forest Hills. Can

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Speaker 2: you talk about what was known at that time and

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Speaker 2: initially how the discovery of Kathleen's body was treated.

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Speaker 3: I think initially, at least in the press, it was

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Speaker 3: just treated as a prominent author's wife was found dead

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Speaker 3: in their home. And I don't think initially, at least

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Speaker 3: for the public, there was any connection to it being

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Speaker 3: a crime that changed relatively quickly.

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Speaker 2: And David, I'm going to ask you to describe the

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Speaker 2: scene a little bit, because, as we'll talk about later,

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Speaker 2: what the scene looked like became a fact that really

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Speaker 2: influenced investigators. So could you describe that.

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Speaker 3: Sure, because it was a horrendous looking scene. You know

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Speaker 3: when you walked in and I did early on to

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Speaker 3: meet with Michael. We did not meet in a diner

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Speaker 3: eating a Pistromi sandwich, as the HBO series indicated. But

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Speaker 3: when I came in, you know, Michael showed me the

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Speaker 3: scene and there was blood all over the walls and

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Speaker 3: all over the floor, you know, dry blood, and you know,

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Speaker 3: the immediate reaction when you saw that was Wow, something

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Speaker 3: really terrible happened here. But you know what I didn't

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Speaker 3: realize when I first saw that, and obviously what the

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Speaker 3: police didn't realize when they first saw it, was that

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Speaker 3: the scalp bleeds incredibly. It is the most vascuarized part

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Speaker 3: of a human body. And so when somebody is bleeding

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Speaker 3: out from deep wounds in their scalp, there is a

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Speaker 3: massive amount of blood. And the massive amount of blood

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Speaker 3: was not indicative of what caused the wounds. It was

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Speaker 3: just indicative of the fact that the wounds bled a lot,

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Speaker 3: that she was conscious for some period of time, and

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Speaker 3: therefore there was blood all over. But when you first

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Speaker 3: looked at it, it looked like a crime scene. I

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Speaker 3: mean it did.

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Speaker 2: And Michael, you were the first one to see that scene.

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Speaker 2: What do you remember about walking upon that scene, that

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Speaker 2: the blood seen? Kathleen there? What do you remember about that?

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Speaker 4: When I came into the we'd been at the pool

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Speaker 4: and then I came into the house. Uh, she had

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Speaker 4: a teleconference the next morning, So I stayed outside with

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Speaker 4: the dogs for a while and then came in and then

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Speaker 4: I went to go in the back staircase and there

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Speaker 4: she was lying there at the bottom of the stairs,

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Speaker 4: and I you know, I saw the blood, but I

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Speaker 4: was not it didn't I didn't focus so much on

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Speaker 4: the blood as I focused on Kathleen lying on the ground.

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Speaker 4: And that's when I called nine one one and infamous

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Speaker 4: and nine one one call, and you know, I said,

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Speaker 4: she fell down the stairs. And people asked me afterwards, well,

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Speaker 4: why do you think she fell down the stairs as well?

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Speaker 4: If you find somebody at the bottom of the stairs,

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Speaker 4: or obvious thought is that she must have fallen. And

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Speaker 4: that's what I did think.

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Speaker 2: Was it surreal though, I mean to come upon that

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Speaker 2: after you had had this evening together by the pool,

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Speaker 2: I mean describe that.

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Speaker 4: It was one of those what you know, what you know,

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Speaker 4: what's going on? What happened? Uh, there's she was talking

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Speaker 4: and alive, and then suddenly I walk in and she's

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Speaker 4: she was dying. She was still breathing faintly, faintly, and

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Speaker 4: you know, I'd seen enough death in Vietnam to know

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Speaker 4: that she was dying, and so I, you know, I

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Speaker 4: put her down brand of the call nine one one,

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Speaker 4: ran to open the door for them and then was

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Speaker 4: holding her when empt came in. And surreal, well, just shocking,

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Speaker 4: I think is the better word.

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Speaker 2: And so you just described you coming to Kathleen and

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Speaker 2: holding Kathleen and calling out on one so you yourself, of

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Speaker 2: course you're now covered in blood.

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Speaker 4: Right, yeah, I suppose. I mean again, the blood was

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Speaker 4: not a significant thing, you know, to me, that was it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, what significant was that Kathleen was dying.

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Speaker 2: David. Let's let's talk now about the investigation. Right, So

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Speaker 2: we sort of set that scene. Michael calls nine to

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Speaker 2: one one. Eight minutes later, paramedics show up. And then what.

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Speaker 3: Well, after the paramedics showed up, First of all, there

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Speaker 3: was no protecting the scene. People were walking in and out.

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Speaker 3: The police showed up, and Art Holland has said that

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Speaker 3: he walked into the scene and immediately came to the

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Speaker 3: conclusion that this was a crime. You know, he reacted

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Speaker 3: to the amount of blood at the scene, and so

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Speaker 3: we have a classic case of confirmation bias and tunnel vision.

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Speaker 3: He immediately forms his conclusion that there's a murder here,

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Speaker 3: that there's a crime here. Who's the only person in

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Speaker 3: the house. Well, it's Michael Peterson. You know. The the

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Speaker 3: assumption in these situations is that the spouse must be

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Speaker 3: the perpetrator. And that's where they went. It was supposed

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Speaker 3: to be an investigation of what happened here, and instead

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Speaker 3: there was an assumption about what happened, and then the

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Speaker 3: focus became Michael is the perpetrator because there was no

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Speaker 3: one else to blame.

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Speaker 2: And I want to break down for listeners what you

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Speaker 2: said about tunnel vision and confirmation bias, because those are

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Speaker 2: two different things, but they really work hand in hand. Right,

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Speaker 2: So tunnel vision, that's what you're talking about. Art Holland

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Speaker 2: comes in, he sees blood. In his mind, he thinks

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Speaker 2: this is a homicide, so now he is focused only

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Speaker 2: on that homicide. Everything else is blacked out, Like when

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Speaker 2: you enter a tunnel confirmation bias is then processing all

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Speaker 2: of that information that you find through that lens, through

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Speaker 2: that tunnel vision lens. And that is the way the

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Speaker 2: investigation continued, not just with Art Holland, right, But then

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Speaker 2: they have a so called blood spout expert I hate

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Speaker 2: to even use that word, in Dwayne Deever who also

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Speaker 2: shows up on the scene.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: Well, he shows up that very night, a little bit

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Speaker 3: later on, and he's infected by Art Holland's tunnel vision

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Speaker 3: and Art Holland's confirmation bias. So he's there not to

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Speaker 3: really explore what the blood spatter means, assuming that one

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Speaker 3: can even get any sort of information from that that's worthwhile.

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Speaker 3: He's there to again assist Art Holland in proving that

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Speaker 3: this was a murder and that Michael Peterson did it,

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Speaker 3: and so he engages in what he calls pulling strings.

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Speaker 2: David, let me ask you to explain that pulling strings

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Speaker 2: and point of origin. I know it's very familiar to you,

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Speaker 2: but explain for our listeners what that means, what it

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Speaker 2: is that Dwayne Deever was trying to eve.

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Speaker 3: When you have a massive blood spatter and you're trying

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Speaker 3: to determine from where that spatter originated, you can take

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Speaker 3: a look at the angles of the spatter on the

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Speaker 3: walls and work backwards from there with various spatter selections

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Speaker 3: and try to find what is called an area of origin.

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Speaker 3: And that's the best that you can do. The science

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Speaker 3: is absolutely clear that yes, you can do that to

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Speaker 3: find an area of origin, but you can't do that

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Speaker 3: to find a specific point of origin. The area of

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Speaker 3: origin is going to be like twelve by eighteen inches.

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Speaker 3: And the problem was if he had done that properly,

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Speaker 3: the area of origin would have been the walls and

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Speaker 3: the steps. Well, that wouldn't have helped our Holland's case

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Speaker 3: at all. So instead what he had to do is

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Speaker 3: find what he called points of origin, and that was

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Speaker 3: the first step in essence framing Michael Peterson for this murder.

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Speaker 2: And when we talk about origin, a point of origin

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Speaker 2: or an area of origin, what you're talking about is impact.

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Speaker 2: If it were a fall, at what point on the

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Speaker 2: stair did her head hit at what place on the wall.

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Speaker 2: That's what you're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Right Exactly where did the blood start to flow.

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Speaker 2: And you mentioned Art Holland coming back with a search warrant,

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Speaker 2: that's another thing falling right into his tunnel vision. And

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Speaker 2: this is where he went out, and he got a

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Speaker 2: search warrant right away that evening, that very evening, right.

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Speaker 3: Oh, within an hour, within less than an hour, that's

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Speaker 3: where he was headed.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about the injuries, David, because of course

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Speaker 2: there was an autopsy, and the autopsy found that this

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Speaker 2: was blunt force trauma.

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Speaker 3: Actually not the autopsy. Initially, what Deba Ratish found initially

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Speaker 3: was that the cause of death was a loss of

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Speaker 3: blood exanguination, and then we found out later from going

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Speaker 3: through the file, the chief medical examiner came in and

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Speaker 3: essentially told her, no, you need to put on the

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Speaker 3: autopsy that the cause of death was blunt force trauma.

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Speaker 3: That was not the cause of death. We all agree

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Speaker 3: that what caused Kathleen's death was the loss of blood.

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Speaker 3: So why all of a sudden do we have blunt

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Speaker 3: force trauma as the cause of death. That is a

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Speaker 3: question that I don't think has ever been satisfactorily answered.

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Speaker 2: Well, and you know, you talk about tunnel vision, you

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Speaker 2: talk about it infecting other people. This is yet another example.

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Speaker 2: So initially Debora Ratic says cause of death is blood loss.

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Speaker 2: Then she later changes it to blunt force trauma. But

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Speaker 2: there were problems with that being the cause of death,

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Speaker 2: right because blunt force trauma usually has some well known

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Speaker 2: associated conditions, right like subdural hematoma, edema. None of that

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Speaker 2: existed here.

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Speaker 3: Kathleen didn't have any of the injuries that are normally

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Speaker 3: associated with blunt force trauma. She had no injuries to

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Speaker 3: her brain, There was no subdual there were no contusions

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Speaker 3: to the brain, there were no fractures on her arms.

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Speaker 3: There was nothing that was consistent with blunt force trauma.

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Speaker 3: So when you look at that, you say to yourself, Okay,

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Speaker 3: how is that possible? How is it possible that none

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Speaker 3: of the things that I know as a lawyer are

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Speaker 3: normally associated with blunt force trauma are there? And so

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Speaker 3: I say, okay, well, let's take a look at all

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Speaker 3: the autopsies going back ten years and see if we

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Speaker 3: can find even one other, even one other which had

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Speaker 3: none of those injuries. And so that's what we did,

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Speaker 3: and in fact, there was not a single other blunt

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Speaker 3: force trauma death that didn't have at least one and

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Speaker 3: often several of those kinds of injuries. Kathleen Peterson was

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Speaker 3: the only case in the previous ten years where they

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Speaker 3: claimed blunt force trauma was the cause of death, but

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Speaker 3: there were none of those associated injuries.

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Speaker 2: And we'll talk about the trial in a little bit,

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Speaker 2: but back to the investigation. Michael, do you remember talking

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Speaker 2: to investigators that night on December ninth, two thousand and one, Oh, yes, I'd.

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Speaker 4: Be right away. You know. They came in and my

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Speaker 4: son Todd arrived with his girlfriend Nigman at a party

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Speaker 4: rated everybody, and it was Todd who instantly simply because

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Speaker 4: of that and also the way that they were just acting.

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Speaker 4: He picked up right away. He said, Dad, they're trying

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Speaker 4: to get you. And that didn't make any sense to me.

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Speaker 4: Number One, I was in shock and tu but why?

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Speaker 4: So he called my brother who was an attorney in

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Speaker 4: Reno and for which later was like, oh, we lawyered up.

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Speaker 4: But my brother Bill talked to Holland and said, do

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Speaker 4: not question Michael Peterson. I would have been happy to

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Speaker 4: answer anything. I had to cooperate it. That's the only

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Speaker 4: reason why not. And Holland kept trying to do that,

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Speaker 4: put his arm around me, and Todd said no, Dad, no, no,

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Speaker 4: don't talk. Not just snap me out of it. And

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Speaker 4: I realized, oh yeah, they really are definitely out to

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Speaker 4: get me.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about your arrest now. Because it wasn't immediate.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this was December ninth, two thousand and one,

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Speaker 2: but sounds like you were well aware that eyes were

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Speaker 2: on you. Tell me about when you got arrested, what happened.

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Speaker 4: David wanted me to go to Charlotte or at least

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Speaker 4: get out of Durham because he knew the arrest was coming.

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Speaker 4: But all I could think was the ray Caruth case

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Speaker 4: in which she had fled. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 4: I said, no, if they're going to arrest me, they're

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Speaker 4: going to arrest me, I'll surrender if this is what

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Speaker 4: they want. So I made the decision that I would

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Speaker 4: go to the courthouse and surrender for that, and I

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Speaker 4: was put in jail for two weeks.

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Speaker 2: David, what do you remember about that, because by now

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Speaker 2: you were hired, right, I was.

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Speaker 3: Hired relatively early on, before the case even went to

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Speaker 3: a grand jury. What I was originally talking to Michael

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Speaker 3: about was the fact that I was afraid that the

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Speaker 3: police are going to just swoop in before we had

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Speaker 3: a chance to arrange a surrender. Because surrenders get arranged.

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Speaker 3: I was able to reach the district attorney's office. We

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Speaker 3: were able to arrange a time for Michael to show

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Speaker 3: up and surrender himself. And part the reason to do

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Speaker 3: that is because it helps to set up the bail situation,

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Speaker 3: and eventually we were able to get a judge to

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Speaker 3: set a bond for Michael that Michael could make, which

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Speaker 3: is an enormously helpful thing. If your client is in

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Speaker 3: it makes the case much more difficult to defend.

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Speaker 2: So December twentieth two thousand and one is when Michael

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Speaker 2: was charged with first degree murder and then released in January.

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Speaker 2: So now's January two thousand and two. The trial is

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Speaker 2: a little more than a year in two thousand and three, David,

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Speaker 2: can you talk about the two theories at trial? What

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Speaker 2: was the state's case? What was your case?

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Speaker 3: Our case was sort of set from the very beginning

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Speaker 3: when Michael said she's fallen down the stairs, because that

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Speaker 3: was the logical conclusion. Everything that Michael told me from

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Speaker 3: the first day that I met him always checked out.

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Speaker 3: And so yeah, I would go and talk with Michael

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Speaker 3: and he says, well, you know, we were watching a movie,

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Speaker 3: America's Sweethearts, and we get the receipt from Blockbuster which

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Speaker 3: shows that he rented that movie that day. He says, well,

399
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Speaker 3: Todd and his friend the Doctor, stopped by the house

400
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Speaker 3: around ten o'clock on their way to a party. So

401
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Speaker 3: I called the doctor and she confirms everything was exactly normal.

402
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Speaker 3: They were watching a movie. Everything was absolutely normal. Michael

403
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 3: was normal, Kathleen was normal. There was no tension, you know.

404
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 3: Michael tells me that he had a wonderful relationship with Kathleen.

405
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Speaker 3: We interview all of their friends. Every single one of

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Speaker 3: them confirms that. So literally every fact that Michael told

407
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Speaker 3: me I was able to confirm. So for me, that

408
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Speaker 3: was the end of the matter. It was okay, she

409
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Speaker 3: fell down the stairs. And for me it was then

410
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Speaker 3: a question of how do we explain all the blood

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Speaker 3: to a jury, because that was the big problem. The police,

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Speaker 3: of course, had their own theory, and that was that

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Speaker 3: Michael somehow beat her to death, although they didn't have

414
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Speaker 3: a murder weapon for probably a year, so their theory

415
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Speaker 3: had had its problems. Of course, our problem was the

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Speaker 3: amount of blood and the spread of the blood over

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Speaker 3: the walls.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about the States case. Let's first start

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Speaker 2: with Dwayne Defe because I think it's fair to say

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Speaker 2: that Deaver was the lynchpin for the state. Would you

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Speaker 2: agree with that.

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Speaker 3: No doubt about it. I mean, Dever was the person

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Speaker 3: who he was the only person who could put a

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Speaker 3: weapon in Michael's hand as explaining the injuries and the blood.

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Speaker 3: That's what he was there for. And indeed he was

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Speaker 3: the person who established that it was first degree because

427
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Speaker 3: his opinion was that there was some period of time

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Speaker 3: between the first blows and what he described as the

429
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 3: second blows, so that's where the state argued the premeditation occurred.

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Speaker 3: So Diver was responsible for the overall theory and for

431
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 3: the specific theory regarding first degree. He was their case

432
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Speaker 3: to create what he called experiments, which weren't experiments at all.

433
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Speaker 3: They were attempts to recreate certain facts that he saw

434
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Speaker 3: in the scene in a way that would implicate Michael.

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Speaker 3: They were almost cartoonish when you first looked at them,

436
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 3: but they videotape these, and the police obviously relied on them.

437
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 3: The DA relied on them, and the DA showed them

438
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 3: a trial, which was sort of a surprise to me

439
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 3: because I found them to be almost laughable. But apparently

440
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 3: the jury didn't well.

441
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: And when you say laughable, I mean, look, I know

442
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: this is not a laughing matter. But seriously, he had

443
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: like a foam skull, and he put a sponge on

444
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: top of the skull and climbed up a ladder and

445
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: put like the skull up top and then dropped it

446
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: after putting some red stuff on the sponge to see

447
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 2: what would happen.

448
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 3: Right exactly exactly. And of course that experiment didn't go

449
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: well for him because it didn't prove what he wanted

450
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 3: it to prove. His big success. His huge success was

451
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 3: quote proving that the blood spatter on the inside of

452
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 3: Michael's shorts came from a blow to the head, and

453
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 3: he spent hours trying to create that situation, and when

454
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 3: he was finally able to after multiple attempts, you see

455
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: his assistant in the background doing a little victory dance,

456
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 3: like she scored a touchdown in a football game. And

457
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 3: that was the tip off to me that this was

458
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 3: all about proving a certain thing, not about finding out

459
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 3: what happened.

460
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: So we can call that junk science, no doubt.

461
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

462
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: There was also Deborah Ratish. We talked about what she

463
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: found in the autopsy, and you present entered her at

464
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 2: trial with volume upon volume upon volume of the autopsies

465
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: from blunt force trauma deaths over the previous ten years,

466
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: none of which looked anything like Kathleen. So I think

467
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: those are sort of that let's call them the heavyweights,

468
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: the state expert types. But there were other critical pieces

469
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: of evidence that came into the trial that were entirely unfair,

470
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 2: as later acknowledged by the judge. And let's start with Germany.

471
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: So Michael earlier, we talked about Elizabeth Ratliffe and George Ratliffe,

472
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: and you mentioned that Elizabeth passed away. One thing I

473
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: have come to just get my hairs up about is

474
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: every time someone says Elizabeth Ratliffe was found at the

475
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 2: bottom of the staircase, the fact of the matter is

476
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: that's not quite true. I was a reporter. I went

477
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: to Germany. I saw that condo or that little home.

478
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: You walk in the door, there's a little step up,

479
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: and then there's a staircase. And she was found like

480
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: on that little step up. So she could have been

481
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: walking in the door and fall down. I mean, there

482
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 2: was there was no evidence that she fell down the stairs.

483
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: But yet you did have this death in Germany, a

484
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: woman that you knew, whose children you were now raising,

485
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: and she was someone who I believe you were one

486
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: of the first people to see upon her death. Is

487
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: that right?

488
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 4: Her nanny was the first one. She had been going

489
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 4: for the weekend and came back to the house and

490
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 4: opened the door and found Liz there, and she immediately

491
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 4: ran over to our house. We lived one hundred and

492
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 4: two hundred yards away. I was a slave. Patty was

493
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 4: getting up because Patty and Liz were going to go

494
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 4: to school together and drive together. So Patty was you know,

495
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 4: woke me up and said something happened to Liz. So

496
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 4: Patty ran over first, and then and I was maybe

497
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 4: three or four minutes later I came on the scene.

498
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: And let's talk about the scene. The fact that there

499
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: was no blood, the fact that there was no evidence

500
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 2: of an intruder. This was not a scene at all

501
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: like the scene where Kathleen was found.

502
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 4: Fair oh, fair, right. And what had happened right away

503
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 4: was that Barbara, who was the nanny, called German nine

504
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,719
Speaker 4: to one one and the German police immediately came along

505
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 4: with a medical doctor, and the German doctor did a

506
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,239
Speaker 4: spinal tap and the German doctor said this woman had

507
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 4: a stroke, and then the body was brought to Frankfurt

508
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 4: General Medical the Center and thoughts apsy was done on Liz,

509
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,479
Speaker 4: and the pathologist there said that she had had a stroke.

510
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 4: So at the time, and because Liz had been complaining

511
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 4: for days and even called her mother and said this,

512
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 4: I'm having the worst headaches I've had in my life.

513
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 4: So when it was said that she had a stroke,

514
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 4: everyone accepted, well, of course she had a stroke, and

515
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 4: that's what I and everybody believed at the time.

516
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: And the prosecution finds out about this. Now, first of all, David,

517
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 2: you were aware of this when you started representing Michael.

518
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: This didn't get thrown on you by either the media

519
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: or the prosecution. You were well aware of this when

520
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 2: before Michael's trout right.

521
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 3: You know it was it was always stroke. But Ron Jurrett,

522
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 3: who was a former police officer, as soon as he

523
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: learned that her body had been found where it was,

524
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: he said, the police are going to try to use this,

525
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 3: The DA is going to try to use this, and

526
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 3: so literally, within the first few months of us being involved,

527
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 3: Ron and I flew to Germany and we investigated it.

528
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: We spoke with the prosecutor, we spoke with the doctor,

529
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 3: we spoke with the Army CID agent, we got his report,

530
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 3: we looked through the German files. Everyone agreed.

531
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 2: So the first issue is that, yes, the state learned

532
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: about this. Yes, the state tried to get in, and

533
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: they did get it in at trial, and you were

534
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: therefore forced to Rebut all of this evidence, let's talk

535
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 2: about those witnesses that the state brought forth. First of all,

536
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 2: who were they and how were they treated by the

537
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: prosecution when they showed up in Durham, David Well.

538
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 3: They consisted, I believe, of three women, one of whom

539
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 3: Barbara Magnino was the nanny who never ever raised anything

540
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 3: about Liz's death being suspicious, but now, of course, in retrospect,

541
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 3: given Kathleen's death, convinced that there must have been something

542
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 3: going on, and she now remembers all this blood all over.

543
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 3: And then there was another witness, Mary Beth Burner I

544
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 3: think was her name, and she came in. She'd initially

545
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 3: given a statement to Art Holland which didn't even mention

546
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 3: Michael when she talked about the death of Liz, didn't

547
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 3: even mention him. Now she comes in and she's had

548
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 3: what she calls it flashbacks where she sees blood all

549
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 3: over and Michael's acting suspicious, and Michael calls it a

550
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 3: stroke before the doctor gets there, and all of this nonsense.

551
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 4: Interrupt for just one thing. On the witnesses those were

552
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 4: friends of mine and Patty's, and to this day I

553
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 4: do not understand why they did that. I mean, they

554
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 4: just totally made up that blood stuff. And it was

555
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 4: one of the more heartbreaking things to Patty that her

556
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 4: friends had said that out of nowhere, and this was

557
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 4: twenty years later, and it was all false.

558
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: So in addition to the evidence the state brought in

559
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: about Elizabeth Ratliffe, including much of the false evidence, they

560
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 2: brought in another piece of the state's case that I

561
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 2: think was really prejudicial and has been acknowledged as such

562
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 2: was your bisexuality, Michael and these emails that were found.

563
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: They said it countered your argument that he had a

564
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: perfect relationship with Kathleen, right, like that was the legal

565
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: basis for getting it in.

566
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 3: That was the legal basis for getting it in, according

567
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 3: to the judge. But by the time FREDA. Black got

568
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 3: up in her closing argument, it was nothing about that.

569
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 3: It was all about how you know, what Michael was

570
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: doing was pure te filth, and how he was a pervert,

571
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 3: and that was the argument. And that's really why they

572
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 3: put it in.

573
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 2: Right, And that's what you do right when your other

574
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 2: evidence is weak. So let's talk about your case though,

575
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,959
Speaker 2: because you also put on a case. Just quickly run

576
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 2: through for me who you put on and why what

577
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: your goal was put it on a defense case?

578
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 3: Sure, well, our defense was to counter the expert evidence,

579
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: and so had we had two blood spatter crime seen

580
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 3: people Henry Lee and his associate who contradicted Dwayne Devers' testimony.

581
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 3: And we had a biomechanical expert who was an expert

582
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 3: in head injuries, and he testified about how this could

583
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 3: have happened. And indeed, we had an animation to show

584
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 3: how this could have happened, because it was difficult to

585
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 3: picture how the falls took place without having seen it,

586
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 3: and so that's what we did, and I thought it

587
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: was a very persuasive animation to explain the injuries on

588
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:19,919
Speaker 3: Kathleen's head.

589
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: So again those injuries that was problematic for the state,

590
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: as well as the fact that they didn't have a

591
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: murder weapon until, as you put it, maybe a year later,

592
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 2: which they determined to be a blowpoke, which by the way,

593
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 2: they didn't even have to show the jury at the

594
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: beginning of the trial, right.

595
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: Right, they came in with the Candace's blowpoke and said, see,

596
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 3: this is what Michael had in his house. It's mysteriously

597
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 3: missing and it was always there before, according to Candace,

598
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 3: and now it's missing, and this must be the murder

599
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 3: weapon because it's light and it's stiff, and it wouldn't

600
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 3: crack her skull or cause brain injuries, but it would

601
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 3: cause the kind of injuries to the scalp that she had.

602
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 3: That was Deborah Radish's testimony, which was completely false, as

603
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 3: we proved later on when we were able to actually

604
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 3: find the blowpoke in a corner where the police had

605
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 3: put it, not recognizing that it was even relevant.

606
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 2: At the time you mentioned Candace and Michael, you had

607
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 2: mentioned Candace as well. Candace Zamparini was Kathleen's sister. She

608
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 2: became a very important person in this case in terms

609
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 2: of I would say a player for the prosecution. Would

610
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: that be a good way to characterize her? Yes, What

611
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 2: was your relationship with Candace before Michael?

612
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 4: There was a lot of jealousy between the sisters, and

613
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 4: many times they came to visit us, and we grew

614
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 4: up to visit. I can remember a couple of times

615
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 4: they would be fighting and her husband and I would

616
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 4: has sort of rolled her eyes saying, oh my god.

617
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 4: But it was a good relationship. And when Kathleen died,

618
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 4: she was right there. She took over everything, arranged funeral, cemetery,

619
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 4: plot everything, and then it became very bad because the

620
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 4: police convinced her that I had killed Kathleen, and I

621
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 4: understood that. Why then her sentiments changed and she really

622
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 4: hated me in the same sense if somebody had come

623
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 4: to me and said the police had said, oh, this

624
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 4: person kills your brother, well I would have hated that person,

625
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 4: no question about that.

626
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: Michael, you said, the police convinced Candace that you killed Kathleen,

627
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 2: But it was actually the prosecutors and not just Candace

628
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 2: but also Caitlin, Kathleen's daughter. What the prosecutors did was

629
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 2: flat out wrong. It was improper. I mean, the prosecution

630
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 2: essentially formed Team State of North Carolina using Kathleen's own kin.

631
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 3: Yeah. So initially Candae was very supportive of Michael, as

632
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 3: was Caitlyn. Both of them said to me, there's no

633
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 3: way that Michael would have done this, no way. Indeed,

634
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 3: Caitlyn was the family spokesperson when Michael was first let

635
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 3: out of jail, and she said that to the media.

636
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 3: So what change. What change was the police and prosecutors

637
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 3: brought them in, showed them the photographs, and had Deborah

638
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 3: Ratish explained to them that these were clearly the result

639
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 3: of an attack, a homicidal attack, and that changed everything.

640
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: So let's go back to the trial, the state puts

641
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,800
Speaker 2: on their case, you put on your case, they rebt

642
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: you rebut right, and then the jury goes out and

643
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 2: they deliberate for a week. So Michael, I want to

644
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: talk about when the jury returned and what it was

645
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 2: like for you when you heard the verdict.

646
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 4: Well, again, it had been days and days that they

647
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 4: were out and we had to stay in the courtroom.

648
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 4: So Margaret and Martha and Todd and Clayton, we were

649
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 4: all there together, and I don't think I'm going to

650
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 4: be convicted. I just don't think it's going to happen.

651
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 4: And of course the next day when they came in,

652
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 4: I stood up and they said guilty. It was shocked,

653
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 4: it really was. But you know, it's not the first

654
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,919
Speaker 4: shock I've had in my life. And I immediately thought

655
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 4: of my children, thought, oh, oh, oh god, what this

656
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 4: does to them after all that they've suffered and lost,

657
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 4: you know. So I turned to them and I said,

658
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 4: it's okay. Uh. It wasn't later when I was locked

659
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 4: up in a cell in the basement, Oh my god,

660
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 4: what happened.

661
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 2: You know.

662
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 4: I've lost my family, I've lost my everything, everything. And

663
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 4: then it really hit at the time it was like

664
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 4: just getting to blow guilty.

665
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 2: And let's talk about prison. I mean, you went from

666
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: you know, that blow in the courtroom and the shock

667
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 2: and trying to process with your family to then immediately

668
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: being taken to prison. What was that experience like?

669
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 4: Prison was? I think for me a little different in

670
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 4: the fact that I was really famous. Everybody had watched

671
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 4: this even in prison, they were watching court TV and

672
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 4: the news, so everybody knew who I was when I

673
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 4: got there. And the fact that I was old sixty

674
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 4: eight or something.

675
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 3: Oh you were fifty eight. You were fifty eight, fifty.

676
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 4: Eight fifty eight, where I felt like sixty eight. I

677
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 4: taught ged for a couple of years, earning a dollar

678
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 4: a day and got seventy five guys their GEDs. I

679
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 4: was doing everything I could stay busy and keep my

680
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 4: mind off the tragedy of losing, you know, my children

681
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 4: and everything. So again, life, you know, whether it's war

682
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 4: or anything, it it's pretty much what you make of it.

683
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 4: And I had decided right away, well, okay, this is it.

684
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 4: I'll just make the best of it, and so I did.

685
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 2: And meantime, on the outside, there's the appeal process going on. David,

686
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: can you just briefly walk us through direct appeal post conviction.

687
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: What happened.

688
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 3: Well, on the direct appeal, we were pretty confident because

689
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 3: number one, they had introduced evidence pursuing to a search

690
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 3: warrant which was completely insufficient. FREDA. Black had made arguments

691
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: and closing that were completely improper. So we were optimistic

692
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 3: that the verdict was going to be reversed. And then

693
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 3: they decided, well, all of that was just harmless error

694
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 3: that wouldn't have affected the verdict. And then what happened

695
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 3: was that Dwayne Diaver was exposed as a fraud, not

696
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 3: in this case, but in the Greg Taylor case. And

697
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 3: once that happened, then I saw an avenue for a

698
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 3: post conviction petition that would succeed because Dwayne Diaver was

699
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 3: in fact the lynchpin of the case. And so that's

700
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 3: where we went.

701
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: And so when you say Dwayne Diver was exposed to

702
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 2: be a fraud, let's put a fine point on that, right.

703
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 2: It was more than being a fraud. I mean he

704
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 2: was not passing confirmatory reports on it was preliminary reports.

705
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 2: He was doing these made up experiments. I mean, explain

706
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: what you mean by that?

707
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I was being too kind, He was a liar,

708
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 3: He was someone who was hiding exculpatory evidence. He was,

709
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 3: in essence, setting up people by his lab results in

710
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 3: case after case after case, to the extent that the

711
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 3: State of North Carolina had to hire two former FBI

712
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 3: agents to come in and audit the lab, and as

713
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 3: a result of that, they shut down the blood spatter

714
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 3: division of the lab because it was rife with inaccuracies.

715
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 3: And so once we had all of that, we were

716
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 3: able to go back. And you know, Michael had from

717
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 3: the start was in favor of the documentary being made

718
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 3: because he felt like it would level the playing field.

719
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 3: I don't mean to speak for you, Michael, but you

720
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 3: know I think that was your thought, was that, hey,

721
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 3: having these award winning Academy Award winning documentarians there would

722
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 3: keep things a little bit more honest. We were able

723
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 3: to get all the clips from the French filmmakers of

724
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 3: divers testimony, and that had a very visceral effect, I

725
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 3: think on the judge, because it's one thing to read

726
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,280
Speaker 3: it in the transcript, it's quite another thing to watch

727
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 3: this guy on the witness stand where you're the judge

728
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 3: and he's lying to you. And to the jury, and

729
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 3: that was extremely powerful. So I think in fact, Michael's

730
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:58,240
Speaker 3: instinct of having those filmmakers there is what ultimately enabled

731
00:47:58,320 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 3: us to get him.

732
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 2: At and ultimately what your emotion was. Your motion for

733
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:04,879
Speaker 2: a new trial was based on the fact that there

734
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 2: had been false and misleading testimony, a fabricated evidence, and

735
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 2: Michael deserved a new.

736
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 3: Trial, exactly, exactly right.

737
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 2: What's so interesting about that is a lot of times

738
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 2: in cases of wrongful convictions, we looked to the thing

739
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 2: that made a difference, right, it was DNA testing. It

740
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 2: was a tape that turned up and someone saw the

741
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 2: real perpetrator or someone finally confessed. And here what I

742
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 2: hear both of you saying is it was the documentary.

743
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: So Hudson's ruling, Mike, what was that like? What was

744
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 2: it like to hear him say you get a new trial?

745
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 2: What was that like?

746
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 4: Oh, Jesus, it's like being resurrected almost. I'm not sure

747
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 4: how it Lazarus felt, but when you're gone and have

748
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 4: lost everything and suddenly someone returns your life to you

749
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 4: and there were my children in court and it was there.

750
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 4: Oh my god, it was it was just it wasn't

751
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 4: ventication so much as it was just getting life back.

752
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 2: And at the time, I mean, everyone was ready to

753
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 2: dismiss the charges. I think, if I remember right, Judge

754
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 2: Hudson was ready to do it. Frankly, I think the

755
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 2: DA was. But then in step Candae Zamporini and her sister.

756
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 2: What happened then, David.

757
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 3: Everyone was done with this case, you know, and everybody

758
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 3: realized that the trial hadn't been fair, that this Germany

759
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 3: stuff should have never come in, that was a farce,

760
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 3: that the sexuality stuff should have never come in. They

761
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 3: now didn't have the blood spatter expert anymore. I mean,

762
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 3: how are they going to proceed? They had no evidence

763
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 3: at that point, so I think Judge Hudson fully expected

764
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 3: the prosecutor say we don't have enough to proceed. I

765
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 3: think the DA was hoping to say that. But Candace

766
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 3: and Laurie, the two sisters, were adamant that they objected

767
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 3: to that. But the DA was not willing to do

768
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 3: the right thing over the objections of these two women.

769
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 3: And when you watch Candace's venom at the ultimate Alford

770
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 3: Plea hearing, I guess you can sort of understand why,

771
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 3: because she was beyond beyond the pale in how venomous

772
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 3: she was.

773
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: So after the new trial is granted, of course, the

774
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:41,240
Speaker 2: state appealed and lost their appeal, and oftentimes what happens

775
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 2: is then everything's dismissed. That didn't happen here. You mentioned

776
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 2: the Alford plea. Michael, talk to me a little bit

777
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 2: about why you were okay with an Alford plea and

778
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 2: how it was explained to you.

779
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 4: Well, when I got out of prison, I believe I

780
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,720
Speaker 4: was sixty eight at the time, and I weren't ankle

781
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 4: brace for god two years. So I lived with this

782
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 4: for the longest time. I'm getting older and older. So

783
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,919
Speaker 4: when it finally came when David worked out this offered plea,

784
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 4: and again I wasn't convinced that the jury would find

785
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 4: me not guilty. Again, I mean, you know burn once

786
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 4: you're a little leary. The second time I was with

787
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 4: my children, I had, you know, a life, I was

788
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 4: writing and everything was good. Did I want to risk that.

789
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 4: I did not want to go through that for myself

790
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 4: or especially for my children, and then to bring my

791
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 4: grandchildren into help, we'd still be fighting this thing. So no,

792
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 4: just just ended.

793
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 2: David, just for the listeners, just break down an Alford plea,

794
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 2: Why it exists, What it means.

795
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, what it is is a way of resolving

796
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 3: a case without the defendant admitting to the essential facts.

797
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 3: So it's essentially a mechanism where everybody can declare victory

798
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:08,280
Speaker 3: or defeat equally and the case just ends. And Michael

799
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 3: was adam in about two things. Number one was that

800
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 3: he would never say that he had killed Kathleen. Absolutely,

801
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 3: would never say anything close to that. And number two,

802
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 3: he would not go back into incarceration even for ten minutes.

803
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 3: In other words, he had to be released and the

804
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 3: case had to be over right then and there. He

805
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 3: wasn't going to go back to the jail to be processed.

806
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 3: Those are my marching orders. And once the prosecution agreed

807
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 3: to both of those things, as I said to Michael, Okay,

808
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 3: so if we go back to trial and you're found

809
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 3: not guilty, is that going to change anybody's mind who's

810
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 3: already decided you're guilty. No. If you take an offered play,

811
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 3: is that going to convince anybody who believes you're innocent

812
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 3: that you're guilty. No. So there was no practical res

813
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 3: easy to go back to trial. Nothing would change at

814
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 3: that point, and as Michael said, he was older, he

815
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 3: had grandchildren, and it was time to put this to rest.

816
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 2: And so, Michael, what have you been doing with your

817
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 2: life since finally putting this to rest?

818
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 4: I've been writingta God on two four books, five books,

819
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 4: you know, since then, since I got out, I've traveled

820
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 4: and plan to do more of it and plan to

821
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 4: continue writing. I told my children over and over, hey,

822
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 4: don't hate. That's just the most useless destructive emotion that

823
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 4: you can have. So just get over it and live

824
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 4: the life that you can now. I mean, you got today,

825
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 4: so uh, live today. And that's you know what I've

826
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 4: been doing.

827
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 2: What about?

828
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: You know?

829
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 2: A closing argument for listeners here, What do you want

830
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 2: to say to folks, Michael about your experience about your case?

831
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 2: Can they learn learn from it? What would you want

832
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 2: to leave people with?

833
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 4: I think what what to me boils down to as

834
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 4: a matter of having an open mind. You know, back

835
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 4: in the old days, you know, if the police had

836
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 4: arrested somebody or shot somebody, well they were right, of course,

837
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 4: you know. We just believed that then. Uh, and I

838
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 4: probably did myself, as you know, rich white guy, we

839
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 4: don't believe that anymore times have changed. What you believe

840
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 4: isn't necessarily true. What you've been told isn't necessarily true.

841
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 4: You need to think. And people aren't really comfortable with that.

842
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 4: They like the oh no, it's got to be this

843
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 4: way or that way, this Kirkergardian either or well, it

844
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 4: really isn't that. It's all sort of gray. So think

845
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 4: and keep an open mind.

846
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 2: And David, what about you, you know, I mean, on

847
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 2: abuse of power are podcast, we talk about a lot

848
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 2: of the issues that were at play in this case,

849
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,399
Speaker 2: all sorts of misconduct, junkt science, tutle vision and confirmation bias,

850
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 2: all of that in Michael's case, in this experience, what's

851
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: the word? What's the thought? You want to leave with listeners.

852
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 3: What Michael's case illustrates is how fundamentally flawed the criminal

853
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 3: justice system is and how someone like Michael, who never

854
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 3: had done anything criminal in his life could suddenly find

855
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 3: himself convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life

856
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 3: in prison based on the testimony of Dwayne Deaver. Is

857
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 3: a wake up call. And so what I've tried to

858
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 3: do since then is to broaden my message, you know,

859
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 3: not just to talk to juries in particular cases, but

860
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 3: through the podcast, through a book I've just written to

861
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 3: try to educate people about the flaws in the system.

862
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 3: And as Michael said, you need to keep an open

863
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 3: mind because things are not always as they seem, and

864
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,760
Speaker 3: indeed there's lots and lots of gray in the world

865
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 3: and in the criminal justice system.

866
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,

867
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,760
Speaker 2: Sonya Pfeiffer. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason

868
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Speaker 2: Flahm and Kevin Wardis. The senior producer for this episode

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Speaker 2: is Jackie Paully, and our producers are Lyla Robinson and

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Speaker 2: Jeff Cliburn. Our editor is Roxandra Guidi. The music in

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Speaker 2: this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

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Speaker 2: You can find the podcast I make with David Abuse

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00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 2: of Power on Audible That's at Audible UK. Follow the

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00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 2: show on Twitter at Abuse of Power Pod. You can

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00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 2: follow me on Instagram at Sonya Pfeiffer and on Twitter

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00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 2: at Feifer Sonia. David is on both platforms as David S. Rudolph.

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Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

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00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 2: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast and on Twitter at

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Speaker 2: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good on

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00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 2: all three platforms. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava

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00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 2: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one.

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Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episode of Wrongful Conviction,

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Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prise finalist and co host of the podcast, ear

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Speaker 1: Hustle Earle on Wood, my friend Earl on Woods is

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00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 1: going to talk to an Axonery that he met while

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Speaker 1: still serving time at San Quentin. Prison Erlon will talk

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Speaker 1: with Karamut Conley about the wild twists and turns of

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Speaker 1: the California justice system and their shared experience of life

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Speaker 1: behind bars. This is a must listen episode. Tune in

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Speaker 1: next week. It's going to be Monday. In the Wrongful

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Speaker 1: Conviction podcast feed,