Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shonda
Speaker 1: Land Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. Honey, is
Speaker 1: it all? Is it all? Honey? Is this miss recording?
Speaker 1: What's up? YouTube? Land, Twitter and Instagram, last, Snapchat, Crown,
Speaker 1: the Scruff, b GC Jack, Facebook, Periscope, and less but
Speaker 1: not least, every single one of my bitches Chorus, San
Speaker 1: Mingo and the lands all across the land. This is
Speaker 1: your grol T. S. Madison and I'm coming to you loud,
Speaker 1: live and always unfailor in color from the marvelous Chateau.
Speaker 1: I feel like my day is a complain if I
Speaker 1: have not heard you say that. Hello everyone, and welcome
Speaker 1: to the Laverne Cox Show. There's something about a really
Speaker 1: good catchphrase, and today's guest has so many, so many
Speaker 1: of them. I am so ex ight it. I'm going
Speaker 1: to be speaking with T. S. Madison, a woman who
Speaker 1: has inspired me, who has cracked me up for years,
Speaker 1: and I just think it's a genius of personal branding
Speaker 1: and just a superstar. T. S. Madison is an openly
Speaker 1: transgender entertainer, social media personality, entrepreneur, and l g B
Speaker 1: t Q plus activist. Tis Madison has worked her ass
Speaker 1: off for decades to create her own platform. She became
Speaker 1: a YouTube sensation as the co host of The Queen's
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, and now it's the star of the new
Speaker 1: we TV show, The T. S. Madison Experience. Please enjoy
Speaker 1: my conversation with T. S. Madison. Hello, T. S. Madison,
Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today? Girl?
Speaker 1: Over Cox Honey, the inventor of all the things. I
Speaker 1: am sitting here with you. Girl. It is time. It
Speaker 1: is so overdue. It's so overdue. We should let the
Speaker 1: people know. Recording this on March fifth, the day after
Speaker 1: the premiere of The T. S. Madison Experience on we TV.
Speaker 1: And how do you feel about the first episode? How
Speaker 1: do you feel? This is so the long time coming?
Speaker 1: But today I'm really like a producer Laverne, you know
Speaker 1: the first time when you when you produce your show,
Speaker 1: like you like, what are the numbers and what are
Speaker 1: they saying? And what's the feedback? And how do the
Speaker 1: people like it? God? I still I'm doing all this pressed.
Speaker 1: It's it's a lot. You know. I don't know how
Speaker 1: you've done it for so many years, because we've all
Speaker 1: watched the Laverne Cox experience. I can't tell you, Maddie,
Speaker 1: I've been perpetually exhausted for like eight years. But I'm saying, no,
Speaker 1: the more things that I can have a little bit
Speaker 1: more time to myself. You have to find your time
Speaker 1: to recharge. You have to find your time to like
Speaker 1: right now, isn't that time right the wave now? No,
Speaker 1: this is definitely not not the time. And I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do the best that i can to my energy high.
Speaker 1: And I want to say this though, I want to
Speaker 1: say thank you for unscrewing the door and leaving it open.
Speaker 1: And one thing that Funky Dyneva says all the time
Speaker 1: is that when we occupied spaces as LBGT plus people,
Speaker 1: we can't go in there and up the thing. How
Speaker 1: do you have to make sure that you do it
Speaker 1: and leave the door open for other people to come
Speaker 1: behind you? And and and we have to go in
Speaker 1: there with grace and dignity and all of this stuff.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna share a little bit. Mm hmm, girl,
Speaker 1: Why y'all got the glad police on me? I didn't
Speaker 1: have the Glad police is on you? Girl? What what's
Speaker 1: going on with the team? No, they're good. No, they're
Speaker 1: really good. Like I know, I'm just I'm I'm making
Speaker 1: a joke out of it. It's it's really good. Like
Speaker 1: they want to pr train you and stuff to make
Speaker 1: sure because of our list. Listen, it's no secret hood.
Speaker 1: I'm a loud, loving and color and you know, I
Speaker 1: don't give a day. I'm sometimes but I have found
Speaker 1: out that in this process right now and going on
Speaker 1: this place, that the responsibility that that you have as
Speaker 1: a as a torchbearer, it can be a little bit overwhelming,
Speaker 1: a little bit, you know, because like you you have
Speaker 1: to be very careful about stuff that you say, because
Speaker 1: you know, you don't just represent yourself anymore. You represent
Speaker 1: a plethora of people, not only LBGT plus people, black people,
Speaker 1: you know, women and women. Can I tell you that pressure?
Speaker 1: I mean for me, it really hit in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 1: It really hit Ineen when after the Katie Kirk interview
Speaker 1: after Time magazine cover. But I think we're in a
Speaker 1: new space now. I don't know when I think we
Speaker 1: have to let that go because I think we have
Speaker 1: to be responsible for our community. But I think now
Speaker 1: with you and there's so many trance people out there
Speaker 1: now on TV right so You don't have to represent
Speaker 1: the whole community. You can represent you and you. You're hilarious.
Speaker 1: You know, I've been watching you for years, girl, so
Speaker 1: I and I still watch you, and I can. I
Speaker 1: can sit and watch T. S. Madison in the car
Speaker 1: ordering going to like McDonald's or whatever, ordering food. I love.
Speaker 1: It's such a trance thing that, like, so when you're talking,
Speaker 1: you know, you're talking in the car and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden you're on the intercom, Hi, can I please
Speaker 1: order a you know, two piece with It's just that
Speaker 1: never gets old either. There's just so many things they clocked,
Speaker 1: that voice hone you, that drives through how do you
Speaker 1: may get up? You may get some floor on your hamburger, girl,
Speaker 1: your hamburger birl may start and tasting like You're like,
Speaker 1: you want this ship taste like the floor? What did
Speaker 1: they do to my hamburger? There's just so many nuances
Speaker 1: like it is the most entertaining thing ever. T. S.
Speaker 1: Madison after Dark is my favorite. Shout out to Litanya girl.
Speaker 1: The stories I live for the stories of of the
Speaker 1: trade and the clients, and I live for all of it.
Speaker 1: We need this, we need and we needed for a
Speaker 1: very long time, and I think the beautiful thing is
Speaker 1: is that now the world is ready. And I think
Speaker 1: when I said this to Billy Porter, we were talking
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago, and I said, it's still beautiful
Speaker 1: that you're still alive and that you survived because the
Speaker 1: world has caught up to you. And Madison, the world
Speaker 1: has caught up to you. We don't have to be
Speaker 1: in this respectability politics anymore. And that's really why I
Speaker 1: wanted to have this conversation today. And for me it
Speaker 1: was you. You have to look at it to lavern
Speaker 1: my entrance into uh mainstream visibility because you know, I've
Speaker 1: been an underground girl for a long time, but my
Speaker 1: interest into that was just me selling a product. When
Speaker 1: I was doing the little vines, it was just me
Speaker 1: selling the product at the time in the business that
Speaker 1: I was in. We should clarify for the audience that
Speaker 1: I don't think you'll mind me saying it. Maddie has
Speaker 1: a history and sex work and she um started her
Speaker 1: own porn business and turned it out, and like you were,
Speaker 1: you were peaking at that time too, like Boom, and
Speaker 1: they were tearing me up like all honey, you are
Speaker 1: trash and la Vernes queen and your this and the other,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm not trying to be like like
Speaker 1: we're all different, Like why can't I not celebrate my
Speaker 1: sister who's paving the way for something I may occupied
Speaker 1: this space. I don't know, why would y'all do that?
Speaker 1: And the gaggy is Laverne loves the t S. The
Speaker 1: t S loves Laverne, and she knows that we are
Speaker 1: polar opposites, but we are the same. So we got
Speaker 1: that's the piece. It's like when I I was watching
Speaker 1: the show last night, I was like, yes, Mattie and
Speaker 1: I on the service. To me, it seemed completely different.
Speaker 1: But I'm from Alabama, I have a religious mother, I
Speaker 1: grew up in the church. I am a block transplant.
Speaker 1: There's so many things that we have in common. It's
Speaker 1: very different and path and like, but for the grace
Speaker 1: of God, I may have been having to do what
Speaker 1: you were doing, you know, on the stroll in Miami
Speaker 1: and in Atlanta. But it's all good. It's all good.
Speaker 1: And what I love about your history and sex work
Speaker 1: is that you're open and honest about it. You tell
Speaker 1: the truth about It's like their stories or legendary and
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that you survived it. But then I
Speaker 1: think that it's so important that you you You were like,
Speaker 1: I need to be the boss. I need to be
Speaker 1: the one producing these videos. I need to be the
Speaker 1: one distributing them, because that's where the money is. Can
Speaker 1: you talk to us about when when it clicked for
Speaker 1: you that you were like, Okay, I need to be
Speaker 1: the boss of this and not be, you know, just
Speaker 1: used by these other people who are really making the
Speaker 1: real money. When I actually sat back and I watched
Speaker 1: the way that can I be candid leavern girl? I
Speaker 1: want you to I want you here to be fully
Speaker 1: you and do you? Yes, girl, relax and do you
Speaker 1: She gave me permission. Okay, listen, when I saw all
Speaker 1: those white companies pimping out, and I do feel I
Speaker 1: don't want to say pimping out heavy because you know,
Speaker 1: we go in knowing that we need to start somewhere,
Speaker 1: But I'm saying pimping out, Like, girl, we work for
Speaker 1: these people, like our black skin is so expensive. It
Speaker 1: is expensive. Our black skin is powerful, Our black skin
Speaker 1: is like the money maker. And you get us and
Speaker 1: you give us quarters, pennies, nickels on the dollar, to
Speaker 1: bear our nude bodies to perform in in in the video.
Speaker 1: You own all the rights, you own this stuff, and
Speaker 1: then you market the white girl as better than us.
Speaker 1: And this is no shade to my to my white sisters,
Speaker 1: but you market the white girl better than us. This
Speaker 1: art here, this is God. And you know those are
Speaker 1: those girls, and I know you may not. This is
Speaker 1: the niche if like this go down, if you want
Speaker 1: to go down this dark place over here, you're gonna
Speaker 1: like these girls too. But this is what they were
Speaker 1: buying over here, these the black girls, and you were
Speaker 1: using this money to make the white girls look look sickly, No, ma'am. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And that's why I'm so passionate about that, because I
Speaker 1: need them to understand that I walked into a white
Speaker 1: world and told them, Now, Madison, when you come do
Speaker 1: this scene? You know, would you come do this or
Speaker 1: would you would you film this? And you now, and
Speaker 1: if I do, this is what I want. I want.
Speaker 1: I want money on the front end. I want money
Speaker 1: on the back end. I want producer rights, I want
Speaker 1: distribution rights. I want to be able to have residual
Speaker 1: income from this stuff. Should I pass away right now,
Speaker 1: my mother can have money, my brothers can have money, whatever.
Speaker 1: And it was very much like, how does she know about?
Speaker 1: How does she know this? How does she know? You know? Um?
Speaker 1: I was introduced to Phil his name is Phil when
Speaker 1: he was the owner of Evasive Angles and he evasive.
Speaker 1: He's um sin white man. He had never produced trans films.
Speaker 1: They said, I have been watching you here in Atlanta,
Speaker 1: like your videos outstaill mine and mine are high, high produced.
Speaker 1: I said, well, I understand my audience for one, and
Speaker 1: for two, what you produced don't look like me. And
Speaker 1: what you have to understand is I know you're coming
Speaker 1: down here to sail to an urban market. I got
Speaker 1: there a lot, baby. I don't work to beat out.
Speaker 1: I've been on the chat line. I don't dealt with
Speaker 1: the trade. I know what what they like. I know
Speaker 1: what men who are attracted to plus size black women
Speaker 1: what they're gonna like on a plus size black trans woman.
Speaker 1: It felt home to a lot of black men when
Speaker 1: I was, you know, making those films, because that's t Shirt,
Speaker 1: that's Kinika, that's Tasha. You know that I put to
Speaker 1: school with her up to really understanding when I'm hearing,
Speaker 1: is that a person who really who learned the market
Speaker 1: the hard way, and then it was like, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is the market. I'm going to produce a product for
Speaker 1: that market. This is it's capitalism. And what I just
Speaker 1: love about it is that you have always been a businesswoman.
Speaker 1: And when you when I became aware of you was
Speaker 1: when your vine went viral new Weave twenty two inches. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and literally a girlfriend of mine showed that we are
Speaker 1: having a group text and a girlfriend and I was like,
Speaker 1: I was like, what's going on? And I looked you
Speaker 1: up and then there were videos, a bunch of videos,
Speaker 1: and I found out who you were. That was that
Speaker 1: when that vine went viral? Was that intentional? Was that?
Speaker 1: And then how are you able to capitalized on that
Speaker 1: vine going viral? Like because I knew you made money? No, Lavernion,
Speaker 1: it actually was not intentional. I stumbled across a social
Speaker 1: site where I saw people putting up a little six
Speaker 1: second videos and I initially started out funny, even hilarious.
Speaker 1: It's hilarious, girl. Yes, I remember the first vine that
Speaker 1: I ever put up. It was when Beyonce was pregnant,
Speaker 1: and I remember me putting this thing on my stomach
Speaker 1: and me sitting down and and like reenacting when she
Speaker 1: sat now on a talk show she was doing. And
Speaker 1: I just there was one vine that I put up, girl,
Speaker 1: it ain't really getting no traction. It was a little people,
Speaker 1: you know, laughing and joking at it. But I started
Speaker 1: scrolling through vine and I said, wait a minute, they
Speaker 1: have after dark. What is this? So I clicked the
Speaker 1: hashtag and I'm looking at the hashtag. I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: are they nude on't here? Okay, I'm typing away, researching
Speaker 1: like how how many clicks does this kid? And how
Speaker 1: does this is this marketable? Oh? Here we go. Let
Speaker 1: me promote my website. So that's all it was for me.
Speaker 1: So I did it. I had no idea what was
Speaker 1: gonna happen. And now way were now just yes, boom,
Speaker 1: just boom it just Laverty was boom huge. And so
Speaker 1: some boys from New Orleans and some I don't want
Speaker 1: to call them trade, but honey, they got those tendencies.
Speaker 1: Some boys from New Orleans stumbled across it and reposted
Speaker 1: it and and typed in the caption this right here,
Speaker 1: how does this woman have a dick? How's that for
Speaker 1: a little true after tiny break, We've got more for you.
Speaker 1: We are back picking up where we left. That's what
Speaker 1: it was. How does this woman have a day? And
Speaker 1: I promise you it was them reposting that. Let me
Speaker 1: title it right, How does this fat woman have a dick?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it was insane. It was like crazy.
Speaker 1: I woke up the next morning and it was like,
Speaker 1: all this stuff is everywhere, like everywhere. So the boy
Speaker 1: who reposted it, he had came up with all of
Speaker 1: these I think that they may translate to transphobic slurs,
Speaker 1: but he came up with this. He called me a sugar.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I heard all of them sugar. And
Speaker 1: so he went on this tirade like wearing me out.
Speaker 1: But the more he wore me out, the more that
Speaker 1: it started to spread. So I started doing little videos
Speaker 1: to him, like, you know, taunting him. And the more
Speaker 1: I taunted him with the videos, the more they were
Speaker 1: going about because me naked and all this stuff or
Speaker 1: whatever the girl, And then more people were going to
Speaker 1: your side, the side yes, And then I started my
Speaker 1: site increase. And then I'm gonna tell you what really
Speaker 1: made me start marketing the moment that they took one
Speaker 1: of the little pieces and put it on Tosh point. Oh,
Speaker 1: I remember it being my birthday, October twenty second, two
Speaker 1: thousand and fourteen. I was I was in the bed
Speaker 1: sleeping and ten o'clock Tosh came on and it said,
Speaker 1: all right, everybody, let us introduce you to your dick
Speaker 1: of the week. So I'm seeing him and I'm like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, and it's me at The audience went
Speaker 1: crazy and it's like after that girl, I said, man,
Speaker 1: you gotta make you some T shirts. Well with the
Speaker 1: T shirts, what did the T shirts saying? She got
Speaker 1: a dick? Oh my god, Yes, she got up dick.
Speaker 1: And it was all because I was arguing with this
Speaker 1: this boy. He was like, I don't know what you are?
Speaker 1: What are you? Are you a woman? Oh my god?
Speaker 1: And I really think this was a big, big introduction
Speaker 1: to people might have been bad, could have been bad
Speaker 1: to people who had never seen a trance person, who
Speaker 1: if I was just doing regular vice, he possibly would
Speaker 1: have thought that, you know, I was just uh, this
Speaker 1: black woman. But what drove him insane was him seeing it.
Speaker 1: And it's just like so confused by I've been confused
Speaker 1: because he was a little If he's spending that much energy,
Speaker 1: he was probably a little turned on excited girl. That's why.
Speaker 1: That's why I said a trade tendencies. Um. If I
Speaker 1: ever get an opportunity to run into him anywhere, he
Speaker 1: probably won't talk to me. What I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: I want to thank you. You're you're messy and you're confused,
Speaker 1: and you know it caused me to be in the
Speaker 1: place that i'm and now he helped that, like this
Speaker 1: boy was on a rampage doing these videos about me.
Speaker 1: What I will say to you, though, Maddie, is that
Speaker 1: not everybody, not every transperson, could take that opportunity and
Speaker 1: then let it lead to the next thing in terms
Speaker 1: of monetary gain, in terms of raising your profile. And
Speaker 1: so I would love for people out there listening is
Speaker 1: to be like, Okay, what can I do? How can I,
Speaker 1: like Maddie, take a moment and really make it into something.
Speaker 1: It's an entrepreneur and so that in to better my life. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it's because the hustle in me Laverne. I
Speaker 1: think it was because I did work the street and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Whatever I needed to do to make
Speaker 1: work for me to survive. You know, you have to
Speaker 1: turn lemons into lemonade, you know, And it's like nothing
Speaker 1: is guaranteed. The streets are guaranteed, but the tricks, they're
Speaker 1: not guaranteed. You know, none of this stuff is guaranteed.
Speaker 1: So you've gotta be trying to figure out how am
Speaker 1: I gonna turn the next dollar without killing anybody, without
Speaker 1: robbing anybody, Because listen, my mother taught me, whatever you
Speaker 1: put out, you will receive back. And I've always been
Speaker 1: afraid to do anything malicious to a person, even when
Speaker 1: I'm angry and I want to get back, I always
Speaker 1: think and hear her saying, boo, you know, God gonna
Speaker 1: give you what you give others, you know, so it
Speaker 1: always keeps me away from doing anything malicious. But girl, anytime,
Speaker 1: any time anything malicious comes to me, I'm gonna monetize
Speaker 1: off of the girl. So if a person is out
Speaker 1: there reading me for fil I'm gonna make a T shirt,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make a coffee mug, I'm gonna some eyelashes,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make a pencil. That's you know. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do this stuff because you gotta turn all your pain
Speaker 1: into profit. Years ago, you had magnets that step your
Speaker 1: pussy up. Magnets the check less literally about four or
Speaker 1: five to support you. But then I also gave them
Speaker 1: to get to the girl my girlfriends. What was it?
Speaker 1: Check list? Step your what is it? Own? A business? What? What? What?
Speaker 1: What was it? Let me tell you, Liver, that was
Speaker 1: a vine. That was a vine from me reading that boy.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, there there it is. I didn't get hadn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't know the origin story I was reading. I
Speaker 1: was reading him. I was like, how do you talk
Speaker 1: about me every day? Can't you find something else to do?
Speaker 1: Be yourself? Bid, step your pussy up, honey, get a
Speaker 1: job on the business and so you know that day
Speaker 1: I had their belong here on I was over rid. Girl.
Speaker 1: Can I tell you your personal brand? And the branding
Speaker 1: and the catchphrases are legendary. I mean, is it on? Can? Well?
Speaker 1: Is it on? Started? I will tell you how that started. Girl.
Speaker 1: Are you're going to holler? So just get rid of holler?
Speaker 1: And you're gonna say, girl, do you take everything that
Speaker 1: you do and make money? Yes? I was trying to
Speaker 1: figure out on YouTube because you know, people were they
Speaker 1: were making them videos and about me on YouTube. I
Speaker 1: had my girlfriend, Diamond Styles. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: know Diamond Styles. I loved I love Diamond Styles and
Speaker 1: she was doing these interviews with with trans people, and
Speaker 1: trans Girl had made a video. Well she interviewed her
Speaker 1: and she said something about me, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to cuss this bitch out, you know, And
Speaker 1: so I was like, how do you? How do you
Speaker 1: do this? I got my computer and I started and
Speaker 1: I didn't know if it was. Of course, I was
Speaker 1: like I was, I said, is it on? Is it on? Honey?
Speaker 1: Is this bitch recording? Like? Is the aggression? I was
Speaker 1: so eager to try to get the thing on so
Speaker 1: I could cuss off. So know it yourself. Man, when
Speaker 1: Maddie wants to cut somebody out, this is an opportunity
Speaker 1: for a new catchphase and a new monetary moment. Is
Speaker 1: it on? Is it on? It this bitch recording? Hello? YouTube? Snapchat?
Speaker 1: But it could give us the honey? Is this misrecording?
Speaker 1: I was like, honey, is it on? Is it on? Honey?
Speaker 1: Is this misrecording? What's up? YouTube? Lay and Twitter and Instagram, land, snapchat, ground,
Speaker 1: the scruff b g C Jack, Facebook, Periscope and less
Speaker 1: but not least, if a single one of my bitch
Speaker 1: isn't Chorison Mingo and the lands all across the land.
Speaker 1: This is your girl, T s Madison. I'm coming to
Speaker 1: you loud live and always unfailor in color from the
Speaker 1: marvelous Chateau Girls. I ever gets old, Maddie, Can I
Speaker 1: tell you? I've been watching your videos for years, You've
Speaker 1: been saying there for you, it never gets old. I
Speaker 1: feel like my day is a complete if I have
Speaker 1: not heard you say that it gets And then the loud,
Speaker 1: live and in color section, I just I live, I
Speaker 1: live for you. The new show, and we should probably
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about your show, but I love
Speaker 1: that it's still you. That they didn't because I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: we don't need to sanitize Maddie. We just need to
Speaker 1: let Maddie just be Maddie because she's enough. And I
Speaker 1: saw the show and it's you. I felt the team
Speaker 1: I UM and miss Mary. It's just obviously we've gotten
Speaker 1: to know miss Mary through your own YouTube and Facebook
Speaker 1: um stuff. But miss Mary was just so transcendent last night.
Speaker 1: She reminds me a little bit of my mother a
Speaker 1: little bit. She was just so it was so beautiful.
Speaker 1: I cried, I cried, I cried, I laughed. It was
Speaker 1: so good. It was really really good. It was like
Speaker 1: it was I was thinking, this is this dysfunctional family
Speaker 1: that like most of us have, that is that you
Speaker 1: read each other and you might fight, but it's all
Speaker 1: in love and you feel the love. And I think
Speaker 1: that's why people love you, because we feel your heart
Speaker 1: and we felt it in the show, and that just
Speaker 1: it just it warms my heart. I honestly told the network,
Speaker 1: I was like, listen, if you police me too hard
Speaker 1: to show will flop. I know when and where to
Speaker 1: turn up. I ain't that crazy, but but you gotta
Speaker 1: let me do me, you know. And it's World of
Speaker 1: Wonder that's producing the show. And I felt very comfortable
Speaker 1: with World of Wonder producer show. You've been working with
Speaker 1: the World of Wonder for years. You did a series
Speaker 1: in the car with them, let me pick you Up,
Speaker 1: Let me pick you Up. And it was important for
Speaker 1: me to explain to them, listen, I'm coming to you
Speaker 1: with this project that I have right now. I needed
Speaker 1: to be me. I don't need to work for you guys,
Speaker 1: I need us to work together. And you know that's
Speaker 1: how I became executive producer of it. And when I
Speaker 1: watched it last night, I was like, Wow, I felt
Speaker 1: that these people have my back and I felt you know,
Speaker 1: reality t V can be messy, Laverne. You know we've
Speaker 1: been in this, but I felt that that was not
Speaker 1: the angle that they wanted to go. They don't want
Speaker 1: to go messy like they have other shows that are messy.
Speaker 1: It's a new day. It's a new day. And I
Speaker 1: also understand that you thought to have black people on
Speaker 1: your crew and l g B t Q people on
Speaker 1: your crew. And it makes a difference who's making the show.
Speaker 1: It makes a difference who is the director, who's the showrunner,
Speaker 1: who's writing, if there's writing, who's editing. All those things
Speaker 1: make a difference in terms of how we're represented. And
Speaker 1: it felt like you. It felt like you, and it
Speaker 1: felt authentic. It is it is me, Laverne, it is
Speaker 1: it's me. It's my family, you know, my mother. Listen,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to try to clean up her words.
Speaker 1: If she want to say strue, then let us say
Speaker 1: damn strue streaming, which is she doesn't. If she wanta
Speaker 1: ain't Fitch annual, fitch geral, then that's what it is. Oh,
Speaker 1: she's so adorable. She's so adorable, and it's just so beautiful.
Speaker 1: And I think to the love, the unconditional love that
Speaker 1: Miss Mary has for you have always made for years
Speaker 1: my brother and I. My brother loves you as well,
Speaker 1: and we've talked about it for years. Just the relationship
Speaker 1: that you guys have that is so it's just real.
Speaker 1: And I think what people also need to know is
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of mis Mary's out there. My
Speaker 1: mother never ever growing up with hard and I've talked
Speaker 1: to her about it. I've talked publicly growing up it's hard.
Speaker 1: But once I moved away and I was in New
Speaker 1: York and I started at my transition, she never said
Speaker 1: I don't want to see you. She never said I'm
Speaker 1: going to disown you. She that that was never. She
Speaker 1: was concerned about my health and well being. She didn't understand,
Speaker 1: of course, but she never said I'm going to disown
Speaker 1: you and I don't want to be in your life.
Speaker 1: And I know that happens to a lot of people,
Speaker 1: but there are a lot of black mothers out there
Speaker 1: who have loved their LGBTQ children. There are so many
Speaker 1: out there who who are have and are loving their children.
Speaker 1: Can I be honest with you? I want to be
Speaker 1: honest with you, Laverne, please for me, which I think
Speaker 1: we're gonna do into it more in the season. You'll see,
Speaker 1: because I learned a lot about myself filming this this show.
Speaker 1: I I listened to her during the filming of this listen,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't the fact that she was in the
Speaker 1: church and and and save and stuff like that. It
Speaker 1: was the fact that I heard everything around like everybody
Speaker 1: else that the've be in the church, me going to church,
Speaker 1: and you know, gay is going to hell, and don't
Speaker 1: be like this. You know what they do in the
Speaker 1: South all that, and and if you become one of them, yes,
Speaker 1: if you're an old girl. The bill they passed, it's awful,
Speaker 1: I know. And they say if you turn out to
Speaker 1: be there, you're definitely gonna bust hell wide open. So
Speaker 1: you hear this stuff, and then you you hear your
Speaker 1: mother love God so much, and you're like, oh my God,
Speaker 1: like in my heart, like I don't want to embarrass
Speaker 1: my family. So you leave, Yeah, you leave, you you leave,
Speaker 1: and it's so important that you you go to find yourself. However,
Speaker 1: when I hear her talk, now I understand it at
Speaker 1: an older age. Now I hear to talk, and she says,
Speaker 1: you didn't give me a chance to accept you. You
Speaker 1: didn't give me a chance to grow with you. You
Speaker 1: didn't give me a chance. And I was like, because
Speaker 1: I heard everything around and this is why we helped
Speaker 1: to make sure that the conversation that we're having around
Speaker 1: young people aren't homophobic and aren't transphobic, because you don't know,
Speaker 1: this is a straight world. We live in, this straight world.
Speaker 1: There were so many homophobic There were so many homophobic
Speaker 1: things I heard from my mother's lips when I was
Speaker 1: growing up, a churchgoing woman, Christian woman I heard, and
Speaker 1: so of course I thought that there was not going
Speaker 1: to be a space for me to be myself. And
Speaker 1: like it was, it was really clear. And I was
Speaker 1: a bully kid who everyone was calling the effort in
Speaker 1: the city and all these things. Yeah, me too, and
Speaker 1: and I was taking to therapy in third grade, you know,
Speaker 1: to like fix me and make me more masculine, so
Speaker 1: all those things. So of course I didn't think that
Speaker 1: she would accept me. So I needed new I needed
Speaker 1: to get out of Mobile, Alabama as soon as possible
Speaker 1: so I could be myself. And that's what I did.
Speaker 1: You had to leave to find yourself. But what we
Speaker 1: left at home were parents that we didn't give the
Speaker 1: opportunity to do that. And I think that every time
Speaker 1: my mother was sitting here watching the show play that
Speaker 1: she was just crying, like this is so real for her.
Speaker 1: And I feel like that if I can go back
Speaker 1: and do some of this again, I definitely would tell
Speaker 1: my younger stelf, you know, break it down for you know,
Speaker 1: get mad at her, walk out and come back in
Speaker 1: and be like, Mama, this is what's going on. And
Speaker 1: maybe I wouldn't have been introduced to this dark world
Speaker 1: that I was introduced to. Maybe I wouldn't have been
Speaker 1: involved in the streets or or maybe I wouldn't have,
Speaker 1: you know, know the street hustle and know the trade
Speaker 1: and know all the dark stuff. And maybe a lot
Speaker 1: of people wouldn't be subjected to because I'm speaking from me,
Speaker 1: a lot of trains people wouldn't be subjected to HIV,
Speaker 1: AIDS and diseases. And what I know it's the truth, though,
Speaker 1: is that without a test there's no testimony. And your
Speaker 1: story is a story of so many other trans women
Speaker 1: out there, black trans women who are hustling right now,
Speaker 1: who have hustled and they they need to see themselves too,
Speaker 1: and they need to see themselves, you know. You know
Speaker 1: there's other trans women who are high profile. We have
Speaker 1: talked about sex work, but not like you know, the
Speaker 1: sex stories the t S. Madison after Dark is legendary.
Speaker 1: I live, I live. I love it too. You know
Speaker 1: why I love it. It's because we have to. We
Speaker 1: have to tell those sex stories because this is what
Speaker 1: goes on, this is what happens in our lives, and
Speaker 1: some of those sex stories could definitely solve some of
Speaker 1: those trans murders that have that have happened. Thank you,
Speaker 1: And I love the way you talk about this. You've
Speaker 1: talked very candidly in a way that like I've never
Speaker 1: fully been able to that when that when men lie
Speaker 1: and say they don't and they didn't know often when
Speaker 1: trans every time, almost every time a trans woman is murdered,
Speaker 1: it's like, well you should tell them, And you've always
Speaker 1: been for years saying they already know. They just don't
Speaker 1: want you to know. And people want to be in
Speaker 1: denial that men are tracted to us and are having
Speaker 1: sex with us and doing all the things with us.
Speaker 1: People want to be in denial. You know, I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about like men, how a lot of men who date
Speaker 1: us state trans women don't come forward. And I was, like,
Speaker 1: most of the men who are having sex with us,
Speaker 1: do you see it's as women and it's not a
Speaker 1: big difference for them, And I think the denial and
Speaker 1: like the so many women my man would never I'm like, girl, girl, yeah, yeah, good,
Speaker 1: and girl listen. So this is why when people like, oh, Masses,
Speaker 1: she's all she talks about is sex. I'm like, it's
Speaker 1: important that I talk about these things because there's a
Speaker 1: there's this fiction going on that men don't love us,
Speaker 1: men aren't having sex. Yes they are. They are loving us,
Speaker 1: They are having sex with us. They are paying for surgeries.
Speaker 1: They are investing in our and the way we look,
Speaker 1: They invest in the way we live. Girl, you know
Speaker 1: one of my lives love iron. I've been in the
Speaker 1: marvel Let's chateau all these years, Bitch, I worked for nobody,
Speaker 1: somebody husband paying for me, you know, and this in
Speaker 1: the home ownership too. I just love I mean, I
Speaker 1: love it. I love that you. I think I remember
Speaker 1: one video you talked about how you had to like
Speaker 1: work extra for you. You You didn't put any money down
Speaker 1: for the mortgage and so you have to work extra
Speaker 1: for it. And can you talk about the home ownership
Speaker 1: and how it's so important for you to own your
Speaker 1: own home or it's extremely important for me and for
Speaker 1: for me to push that for home ownership or ownership
Speaker 1: of a wheen this, how's this big? How's bigger than
Speaker 1: this of an apartment or whatever? Because we are always
Speaker 1: deemed homeless and we do suffer, you know, from from
Speaker 1: homelessness in our community. However, when you when you have
Speaker 1: the opportunity to bitch, do everything that the straight people
Speaker 1: can do. Girl, go out there and buy you a house.
Speaker 1: When you got the money, if you're gonna sell your
Speaker 1: coachinge go out there to save you up a love
Speaker 1: money and buy you a house. So that, honey, when
Speaker 1: that Coucci is old and retired, girl, you can get
Speaker 1: an equity loan on your house, honey, and start your
Speaker 1: business or something. Do something. It is important because this
Speaker 1: is this is equity. We need to be a part
Speaker 1: of wealth, Laverne and love that vision. And it's like
Speaker 1: and so there and for the people who are doing
Speaker 1: their only fans right now are doing whatever, It's like,
Speaker 1: what are you saving and what are you building with that.
Speaker 1: I gotta take a teensy break here, but I'll be fast.
Speaker 1: All right, let's get back to it. I mean, some
Speaker 1: people do sex work for a very long time, and
Speaker 1: then sometimes you're less marketable as you get older. And
Speaker 1: so what's the plans, sister? Some people that do anything
Speaker 1: and they're less marketable when they're older. What's the guy's
Speaker 1: name that's that's getting evicted from his mansion? I forget.
Speaker 1: He's the fashion guy Andre Andre Talent. Yes, Andre, that
Speaker 1: broke my hard. I love Andre so much. I love
Speaker 1: him too, But girl, what were you doing with your coin?
Speaker 1: What are you doing with this stuff? Like? You are
Speaker 1: a gay man? Who is you? Who is occupying spaces
Speaker 1: that a lot of us want to want to break
Speaker 1: into the fashion world? What are you doing with your coin?
Speaker 1: Forty years? I just I'm obsessed with Andre. So I
Speaker 1: read Andre's book, Um the chefon Trenches, and Andre got
Speaker 1: by on the kindness of Carl Logerfelm, the kindness of
Speaker 1: the folks. I forget who owns the house and that
Speaker 1: he lives in. He got by on the kindness of
Speaker 1: so many people for so long that maybe he wasn't
Speaker 1: even making money. But he was just being gifted Chanelle
Speaker 1: and gifted this because he was edited large for vote.
Speaker 1: But a girl, if you it's a hustle. So if
Speaker 1: you're hustling when you look at it, if if somebody's
Speaker 1: donating your house and they're donating you cars, they're donating
Speaker 1: you bags, and I'm not mad at him at all,
Speaker 1: but bitch, be wise in these situations. Girl, you are
Speaker 1: no matter how hi we go in this world. Laverne,
Speaker 1: you're transt mass in your trans Andre. You're a gay man.
Speaker 1: You know, they put limitations on it, even though they
Speaker 1: black black stay black gay man. And I think I
Speaker 1: think he thought that those relationships would sustain him, alleged.
Speaker 1: I read the story about the house. Apparently he um
Speaker 1: was gifted the house, and he was he made improvements
Speaker 1: on the house, and he thought it was his and
Speaker 1: he believed in the kindness of these white people. I
Speaker 1: think he believed in that. And the chickens have come
Speaker 1: home to Ruth and so you cannot rely on the
Speaker 1: kindness of other folks. You have to make sure you've
Speaker 1: got your own. I think that's the lesson, and that
Speaker 1: there are probably details that we don't know about the situation,
Speaker 1: it's as cautionary. Taylor's like, what I mean, what's the
Speaker 1: retirement account, what's the home ownership, what's the hot what's
Speaker 1: the plan so that we going forward we're not destitute
Speaker 1: because there's so many people. Bell hooks Um, the feminist writer,
Speaker 1: when we she owns multiple homes, she was like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to be one of those black women writers
Speaker 1: who died penning less. And so we have to we
Speaker 1: have to plan. Yes, Laverne, listen, the streets have taught
Speaker 1: me so much. Howadly the tricks stopped coming, you still
Speaker 1: got light bible to pay, girl, you better put some
Speaker 1: money somewhere. So, even though he was not in the
Speaker 1: sex industry, he was somebody was still gifting him for
Speaker 1: his for his goods, and the gifts stopped coming. You
Speaker 1: learned this early and and ho in one oh one. Okay,
Speaker 1: your dates don't last. Make the money last, yes, And
Speaker 1: I think the interest, well, so much of our culture
Speaker 1: is like we're pimping ourselves out in one way or
Speaker 1: another in consumer capitalism. Right, So it's like there's so
Speaker 1: many kind different kinds of sex work. I think I
Speaker 1: think you know people who want to demonize sex work.
Speaker 1: I think there's just their degrees of it, and so
Speaker 1: it's like, what are you going to do to make
Speaker 1: the most of whatever situation that you're in, you know,
Speaker 1: and hopefully keep your dignity, keep your dignity and be
Speaker 1: kind to people, but like, what are you gonna do?
Speaker 1: And I love that you keep it real with all
Speaker 1: of that and tell the truth about it, because hopefully
Speaker 1: they the young girls coming up in boys and non
Speaker 1: binary people who are doing there, who are doing their business,
Speaker 1: are thinking ahead and are thinking um long term and
Speaker 1: thinking how do I like make more money and capitalized,
Speaker 1: constantly capitalized and bring and make it, you know, make
Speaker 1: it bigger. Yes, then, and it's so important for for
Speaker 1: we TV and World of Wonder to give opportunities to
Speaker 1: girls like myself because what it does now is it
Speaker 1: restructures the narrative that you know, all we do is
Speaker 1: sex work. Okay, that was then, That was twenty years ago,
Speaker 1: twenty five years ago. Now, the girls that have done
Speaker 1: sex work their executive producers, you know, their own networks.
Speaker 1: They're they're building opportunities so that the narrative changes. You
Speaker 1: no longer have to be a sex worker. You can
Speaker 1: be a sex worker if you want too. But now
Speaker 1: we see the t S Madison, who was once that
Speaker 1: go out into this world follow her dreams sex work,
Speaker 1: got on the internet, blogged about it, talked about it,
Speaker 1: capitalized off of it, move forward, executive producer, television show,
Speaker 1: like all of this stuff. So it's just like, wait,
Speaker 1: I don't even have to do this no more. And
Speaker 1: I think that the beautiful thing is that when we
Speaker 1: tell the stories about our lives, about the dark parts,
Speaker 1: if it's sex work or whatever, that the perspective changes
Speaker 1: when we are in control of how the narrative comes forward,
Speaker 1: and that is you've been in utter and complete control
Speaker 1: of your narrative since I've known about you. It sounds
Speaker 1: like for a very long time, yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 1: And and there's some people who you know, love sex
Speaker 1: working don't want to leave the business. But I think
Speaker 1: having a vision. I know trans woman who've done sex
Speaker 1: work and now have master's degrees and they've left that behind.
Speaker 1: And you've clearly always had a plan for your life.
Speaker 1: And it is clear to me that you've had the
Speaker 1: vision for this show for a very long time when
Speaker 1: all this stuff was going around with the first incarnation
Speaker 1: of the the First Queen's Court and its hilarious as
Speaker 1: you are, you have your testimony is so utterly and
Speaker 1: completely necessary for you to go from your Internet, your
Speaker 1: Facebook lives, your YouTube shows to we TV. Is an
Speaker 1: inspiration to everyone out there. Thank you for being you. Yes, Laverne,
Speaker 1: thank you. Like listen, this is a I've always wanted
Speaker 1: to have a wanted to sit and have a candid
Speaker 1: conversation with you because I was like girl as loud,
Speaker 1: laughing and color as I am. I was getting the
Speaker 1: whip cracked on my back because I wasn't you, and
Speaker 1: that breaks my heart. Other trans women have told me
Speaker 1: that another trans woman was fat Shane. Now, people don't
Speaker 1: know what I eat, first of all, but you have
Speaker 1: a black trans woman was fatching by her manager. People
Speaker 1: who don't know me are saying that when Laverne wouldn't
Speaker 1: do this or wouldn't do that, and to use it
Speaker 1: against another trans person, It's never been what I'm about,
Speaker 1: never and I would. I've never picked myself against another
Speaker 1: trans person. I don't compare myself. I love and support
Speaker 1: my sisters and brothers and non binary siblings and not
Speaker 1: it that breaks my heart. Oh, but here we are here,
Speaker 1: we are yeah, we are. You remember when he beat
Speaker 1: me because I ain't in the in the color purple?
Speaker 1: Of course I remember, of course, had you girl, I
Speaker 1: live for the color purple girl. We can help go
Speaker 1: down a whole color purple rabbit. So that's kind of
Speaker 1: what it feels like to a lot to lots of
Speaker 1: trans girls, who who are you know? Coming up? And
Speaker 1: then we don't have the same story, and I don't
Speaker 1: want that to be for me, Like now that the
Speaker 1: doors left open from whatever I've done did, don't compare
Speaker 1: to gross. Each girl has their own story. Every girl's
Speaker 1: story is important. Right now. We have M J. Rodriguez,
Speaker 1: we have Dominique Jackson, we have India More, we have
Speaker 1: Hunter Shaffer over on ahdo we have there's so many,
Speaker 1: we have angelic ross everywhere and just turning it. I
Speaker 1: mean and Alexandrew Gray, Who's like, we have so many
Speaker 1: more of us out there now that we hopefully you
Speaker 1: can let that go. And I think anyone out there.
Speaker 1: Do not compare trans people to each other. Do not
Speaker 1: pit us against each other. We're not interested in that.
Speaker 1: Do not tell a trans person they need to be
Speaker 1: more like another trans person that is fucked up. It's
Speaker 1: utterly fucked up. Do not do that anymore. I like
Speaker 1: to end the podcast with this question that comes from
Speaker 1: my therapy, actually, and it's a somatic therapy, and the
Speaker 1: question is what else is true? And it's basically like
Speaker 1: when things are hard and rough and I'm struggling that
Speaker 1: I can focus on that, but I could also take
Speaker 1: my energy and focus on the things that are neutral
Speaker 1: and positive in my life. I can focus on what
Speaker 1: else is true? So T S. Madison today, the day
Speaker 1: after the premiere of your show, congratulations you, so proud
Speaker 1: of you. Thank you so much today for you, Maddie.
Speaker 1: What else is true? What is true is I've done
Speaker 1: things that they said that I would never be able
Speaker 1: to do. What is true is I'm not bound by
Speaker 1: the shackles of my past. What is true is I'm
Speaker 1: here now and I am here by divine purpose. And
Speaker 1: what is true is I have impacted the world and
Speaker 1: I'll have a legacy whether tomorrow is the last day.
Speaker 1: And I thank God for it, and I thank you
Speaker 1: for let me be here on this podcast, but you
Speaker 1: grow on and chopping it up. So now I know
Speaker 1: that you would be a good fit on The Queen's
Speaker 1: Supreme Court Girl, because I because we started, I try
Speaker 1: to be good. Because I try to be good, I
Speaker 1: try not to like say, I know we got we
Speaker 1: gotta dig into, but now be that we both will
Speaker 1: get in trouble. We know how to behave enough just
Speaker 1: to say enough. But people don't want to see you
Speaker 1: behave girl. They really want the mass, they really care.
Speaker 1: I love you so much. I'm so proud of so
Speaker 1: people can Well, you can catch im T. S. Madison
Speaker 1: on The Ties Madison Experience on we TV Thursday nights
Speaker 1: at ten pm nights. Are you still doing this Queen
Speaker 1: Supreme Court on? Are you taking a break? You gotta
Speaker 1: watch We've got We've got a lot of production stuff
Speaker 1: going on. You gotta watch Laverne. You know, you might
Speaker 1: be proud of your of your sister at the end
Speaker 1: of the jam, already proud of my but a little
Speaker 1: bit more, already proud of me a little bit more.
Speaker 1: You just got to watch the sea. But make sure
Speaker 1: you guys are following me on Instagram at the real
Speaker 1: Tis Madison, and make sure you're following me on YouTube. T. S.
Speaker 1: Madison Hinton. I'm just make sure you guys are watching
Speaker 1: the show. It's a good show. It's a breath of
Speaker 1: fresh air for reality television. It's not messy. It's a
Speaker 1: little shady because we've got some shade coming down to that.
Speaker 1: It's shady. There's reading, but it's fun and it's hilarious
Speaker 1: and it's really touching. It's really touching. Congratulations, it's a
Speaker 1: really good Thank you, Thank you, Lavern, and congratulation on
Speaker 1: this on this Magup podcast, and thank you so much
Speaker 1: for having t s. Madison Hinton. Oh my god. I
Speaker 1: love that woman so much. I've been a fan for
Speaker 1: a really long time. And when I heard her show,
Speaker 1: What's Happening on we I thought, you know, I thought
Speaker 1: about how the world wants to pit, you know, trans
Speaker 1: people against each other, pit martinalized people against each other.
Speaker 1: And now that she has this platform, I suspected people
Speaker 1: might be making comparisons. And Maddie is Maddie and Laverne
Speaker 1: is Laverne, and there's nothing but love between us and
Speaker 1: her stories, her humor, her testimony. She is a superstar.
Speaker 1: She's always been a superstar. And there are so many
Speaker 1: superstars out there in different communities who just have not
Speaker 1: had the platform yet to show it off. Madison built
Speaker 1: that platform for herself. She made it happen with a
Speaker 1: lot of determination and just star quality that can't be taught.
Speaker 1: I love Tis Madison and you can watch the TS
Speaker 1: Madison Experience Thursday nights on WI. You must thank you
Speaker 1: for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe,
Speaker 1: and share with everyone you know. You can find me
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook
Speaker 1: at Laverne Cox. For read Until next time, stay in
Speaker 1: the love. The Laverne Cox Show is a production of
Speaker 1: Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For
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Speaker 1: favorite shows.