Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you we have a new star. A
Speaker 2: star is born.
Speaker 3: Elon comed up on mars Juson Kennemy.
Speaker 4: He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age.
Speaker 2: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity.
Speaker 2: I feel for the guy.
Speaker 5: I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does.
Speaker 5: But those two percent that are nasty, they are up
Speaker 5: in four post.
Speaker 2: We're meant for great things in the United States of America,
Speaker 2: and Elon reminds us of that.
Speaker 6: We don't have a fourth branch of governments called Elon Musk.
Speaker 2: Welcome to elan Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musket's Tuesday,
Speaker 2: April eighth. I'm your host, David Popotopolis. Now Here at Bloomberg,
Speaker 2: the news has been dominated by last week's tariff announcements.
Speaker 2: They've upended markets, sparked of imported olive oil and iPhones,
Speaker 2: and created the first major policy rift between Musk and
Speaker 2: President Donald Trump. All the CEOs in America, Musk, the
Speaker 2: White House first buddy, has arguably been the loudest critic
Speaker 2: of Trump's tariffs, like calling Trump's trade architect a quote
Speaker 2: total moron, kind of loud. A very dangerous game here
Speaker 2: with very high stakes. So we'll get into what the
Speaker 2: tariffs mean for Musk's many businesses and then talk about
Speaker 2: the political fall and the potential beginning of the end
Speaker 2: for Doge. As always, I'm joined by our regulars, Dana
Speaker 2: Hull and Max Chafkin. Dana, Hello there, Hey, hey, hey,
Speaker 2: and Max how are you hey? David, how are you doing? Excellent? Okay?
Speaker 2: And Craig Trudell, our global autozar, is on to talk
Speaker 2: tariff nitty gritty Craig, welcome, thanks for having me. And later
Speaker 2: on Nancy Cook, a senior reporter in Washington, will hop
Speaker 2: on to talk politics with us. Before we talked tariffs
Speaker 2: for one second, Max, I listened to the debut last
Speaker 2: week of your new podcast, Did you wow Everybody's Business?
Speaker 2: I thought it was great.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Everybody's Business. We had our first episode on Friday.
Speaker 6: If you didn't listen, it is a weekly show in
Speaker 6: which myself and Stacey Mannix Smith, who's a wonderful financial journalist,
Speaker 6: a longtime reporter, talked through the news of the week
Speaker 6: and what it means it's going to be in this feed.
Speaker 6: The elon ink feed every Friday for the next few weeks,
Speaker 6: and then eventually if David, if you like it, we'll
Speaker 6: move to our own feed and you can subscribe. And
Speaker 6: we did get into the tariff talk last week in
Speaker 6: a big way.
Speaker 2: All right, there are other things to talk about besides
Speaker 2: everybody's business, like the tariffs, Craig Chudell. They were announced
Speaker 2: last Wednesday, shocked, I think just about everybody. Markets collapsed,
Speaker 2: tesla'st collapsed, everybody up in arms. I will note at
Speaker 2: here as we record Tuesday morning, markets are relief, rebounding
Speaker 2: a little bit, but still a whole lot of anxiety
Speaker 2: out there. Craig, tell us exactly how you expect this
Speaker 2: to affect the price of Tesla vehicles and how it
Speaker 2: will affect their operations.
Speaker 5: Well, so, I think we should start by talking about,
Speaker 5: you know, acknowledging the fact that Tesla does sort of
Speaker 5: lay claim to having the most you know, sort of
Speaker 5: American made cars.
Speaker 3: And they do this in large part.
Speaker 5: There's a an annual study that this group at cars
Speaker 5: dot Com does. It's called the American Made Index. They
Speaker 5: look not just at the final assembly locations for vehicles,
Speaker 5: but also parts content, and I think, you know, I've
Speaker 5: sort of actually taken a closer look at the most
Speaker 5: recent index that cars dot Com release. One of the
Speaker 5: things that I found so interesting is that one of
Speaker 5: the ways that they sort of one of the inputs
Speaker 5: for this data is actually from a US law where
Speaker 5: they include Canadian content along with US content as a
Speaker 5: measure of americanness. That speaks to just, you know, just
Speaker 5: how crazy the last few weeks have been for this industry.
Speaker 5: That you know, it was a given that you know,
Speaker 5: in the past and since nineteen ninety four, when you
Speaker 5: look at, you know, a window sticker on a car
Speaker 5: for what percentage of the parts content for that vehicle
Speaker 5: is quote unquote made in America, Canada gets thrown in there.
Speaker 5: That that speaks to just how international this industry is.
Speaker 2: Well, and it also, I suppose speaks to how, of
Speaker 2: course America is more than the United States. You know,
Speaker 2: it's America and the broadest sense of America. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: it was just it is what is America? What is America?
Speaker 2: Canada was always just assume it was just part of US.
Speaker 2: It was all just one big market. And this trade
Speaker 2: war is so vast that even that is very very
Speaker 2: very much in doubt.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's up in the air.
Speaker 5: And so, you know, I think while Tesla was coming
Speaker 5: into this trade war from a sort of relative point
Speaker 5: of strength in the fact that, you know, the vehicles
Speaker 5: that they sell in the US, they make in the US,
Speaker 5: they don't entirely have a US supply chain, and they
Speaker 5: acknowledge that themselves back in March, in March eleventh, they
Speaker 5: sent a letter to the Trump administration where they said,
Speaker 5: you know, even with the aggressive localization of their supply chain,
Speaker 5: there are certain parts and components that are, in their words,
Speaker 5: difficult or impossible to source within.
Speaker 3: The United States.
Speaker 5: And an instance of there not being any winners in
Speaker 5: this trade war for the auto industry, that there may
Speaker 5: be sort of you know, relative losers in terms of
Speaker 5: who's losing the most.
Speaker 3: But Tesla absolutely is being hit by this.
Speaker 5: And I think there's also real concern about sort of
Speaker 5: second order effects here that when the US puts tariffs
Speaker 5: on other parts of the world, that Tesla will be
Speaker 5: sort of caught up in the crossfire, that they will
Speaker 5: be targeted as a result of these tariffs.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and especially if China. I mean, I think the
Speaker 4: big thing to think about with regards to Tesla is
Speaker 4: on the one hand, they have really worked very hard
Speaker 4: to localize their supply chain in every country where they
Speaker 4: sell vehicles. But on the other hand, they are very
Speaker 4: exposed in China, which accounts for roughly twenty percent of
Speaker 4: their sales. And if the trade war escalates with China,
Speaker 4: like you could see this big knockoff effect where like
Speaker 4: the Chinese government encourages people to not buy Tesla's and
Speaker 4: to buy domestic suppliers.
Speaker 6: You know, conventional wisdom around tariffs, and Tesla has been that,
Speaker 6: like Craig is saying that it's going to be the
Speaker 6: least big loser among car companies. I have to say,
Speaker 6: as I've watched Elon mus react to these tariffs.
Speaker 2: It's giving me reason to doubt.
Speaker 6: I am wondering how much we should credit this cars
Speaker 6: dot Com list in the first place. And you know,
Speaker 6: looking at the methodology, it seems like they count the
Speaker 6: number of parts and then divide how many of those
Speaker 6: parts come from these It's the.
Speaker 2: Same mathematical formula they used to set the terror It just.
Speaker 6: Sounds I'm just saying, are we sure that there are
Speaker 6: not big unknown vulnerabilities in Tesla's supply chain? That maybe
Speaker 6: people are are not considering or underrating battery components in particular,
Speaker 6: that is a business that China has long dominated. I
Speaker 6: know that Tesla has has battery making in the US,
Speaker 6: but I have to say, like watching Elon Musk react
Speaker 6: to this stuff, just it does not look like a
Speaker 6: guy who's approprating from a position of strength.
Speaker 2: I see, I see so certainly very possible. I mean,
Speaker 2: his protestations have indeed been very very loud. But Craig,
Speaker 2: I'm to go back to the beginning and the first
Speaker 2: question I asked you, because you tap danced around it,
Speaker 2: you can't trick me, pal. Are there car prices going
Speaker 2: up already? And if not, how soon do we expect
Speaker 2: them to go up? If at all?
Speaker 5: We have not seen Tesla make moves to its vehicle
Speaker 5: prices on its website, and I do think that that
Speaker 5: will be something that we ought to watch over the
Speaker 5: next you know, a few weeks in the sense that
Speaker 5: they are very different from the rest of the industry.
Speaker 5: Right where the manufacturers suggested retail prices you know, tend
Speaker 5: to be kept pretty static by the rest of the industry.
Speaker 5: Other automakers, they don't, you know, sort of mess around
Speaker 5: with MSRPs. Tesla is very different in that, you know,
Speaker 5: and we saw that coming out of the pandemic right
Speaker 5: where or early on in the pandemic, we saw them
Speaker 5: jack up prices in this is very open way along
Speaker 5: with the rest of the industry, where because everybody was
Speaker 5: production constrained.
Speaker 2: Let me pause there for a second, So you're saying
Speaker 2: that when we had the last major supply shock, which
Speaker 2: is essentially what this is. These tariffs are a supply
Speaker 2: side shock, Tesla was the first and the most aggressive
Speaker 2: in jacking up prices of the major automakers.
Speaker 3: I think they were.
Speaker 5: They were both aggressive and the way that they moved,
Speaker 5: but also just much more open where because they don't
Speaker 5: have a dealer base, because they don't have dealers and
Speaker 5: independent retailers who in the end get to go with
Speaker 5: the manufacturers suggested retail price are not.
Speaker 3: They set their own prices.
Speaker 5: And they do so very openly for everyone to see
Speaker 5: on their website, and so they're unique. And yeah, you know,
Speaker 5: just as Musk is loud and the way he protests
Speaker 5: and the way he does virtually everything, Tesla is very
Speaker 5: loud and how they set their prices. I also think,
Speaker 5: you know, whereas other manufacturers may have, you know, no
Speaker 5: choice but to jack up prices. I do wonder how
Speaker 5: much you know, sort of ability Tesla has to use
Speaker 5: pricing power, given the fact that they really, you know,
Speaker 5: have started from such a hole in terms of you know,
Speaker 5: the first quarter delivery numbers that they reported last week
Speaker 5: were awful, and you know, they were off of a
Speaker 5: awful base a year ago. So for them to start
Speaker 5: the year by saying, you know, we expect to return
Speaker 5: to growth, they've really got to sort of you know, move.
Speaker 3: The metal this year.
Speaker 5: And will we see them keeping pricing steady and eating
Speaker 5: these tariffs.
Speaker 3: More so than other carmakers.
Speaker 2: Okay, we are going to leave the teriff side of
Speaker 2: this for here, at least the mechanical and the nitty
Speaker 2: gritti sid of the teriff side. Here, Craig driudell as always, sir,
Speaker 2: thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3: Thanks chuys.
Speaker 2: Oh and by the way, Craig, shout as soon as
Speaker 2: you see price increases, if you do see them.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, thanks gus.
Speaker 2: Awesome man. Okay, we're now joined by Nancy Cook, a
Speaker 2: senior correspondent for US in Washington. Nancy, Hello, thanks for
Speaker 2: having me. Okay, now, So, Nancy, as I got it say,
Speaker 2: it seems as I watched the ixing and the posting
Speaker 2: on social media, it seems to be getting pretty hot
Speaker 2: and heavy right now between Elon Musk and several members
Speaker 2: of the Trump inner circle, in particular with one Peter Navarro. Navarro,
Speaker 2: of course, helped steer Trump to these very aggressive tariffs,
Speaker 2: Musk is dead set against them. Tell us, how do
Speaker 2: you see this playing out and what does it look
Speaker 2: like up close and personal there in DC.
Speaker 1: Well, so, I think that what is happening is that
Speaker 1: Elon musk time in the White House is coming to
Speaker 1: an end, and you know he is going to leave,
Speaker 1: you know, roughly at the one hundred and thirty day mark.
Speaker 1: How the White House Counsel's Office kind of calculates that
Speaker 1: is still up for grubs, but we're expecting him to
Speaker 1: leave around May or June. You know, he has driven
Speaker 1: a lot of White House aids nuts and has stepped
Speaker 1: on a lot of toes. And I think you know
Speaker 1: now that Trump is also previewing that he's going to
Speaker 1: be leaving. I just think that everything, things that were
Speaker 1: happening behind the scenes are sort of spilling out into
Speaker 1: the open. A bit more.
Speaker 2: And when you say he's driving members of the inner
Speaker 2: circle nuts, who and exactly how is that playing it?
Speaker 2: What does that look like?
Speaker 1: So what has happened is that I think people have
Speaker 1: been very cautious around him. A lot of Trump sort
Speaker 1: of people in the White House but also advisors and
Speaker 1: allies around him have been very cautious.
Speaker 2: But when you say cautious, seem me like fearful.
Speaker 1: Fearful exactly. That's a good word, better word. They have
Speaker 1: been fearful to criticize Musk because he was like Trump's
Speaker 1: bff for a long time and sort of still is
Speaker 1: around all the time. You know, he was at Mar
Speaker 1: A Lago, he was kind of like living down there,
Speaker 1: but also in DC. He was on Air Force one
Speaker 1: all the time. He had given so much money to
Speaker 1: the campaign, And it was funny because I would make
Speaker 1: all these calls to you know, Trump people when Elon
Speaker 1: first really stowed up in the White House and was
Speaker 1: doing all these dotge cuts, and people were so fearful
Speaker 1: to kind of say anything negative about him, even on background.
Speaker 1: And I do think that that has changed a little bit.
Speaker 1: You know, they take their cues from the President. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, President Trump still is, I think, on pretty
Speaker 1: good terms with Elon, but is starting, I think to
Speaker 1: see that he has is becoming at a little bit
Speaker 1: of a political liability. And Trump himself has sort of
Speaker 1: said Elon is going to be leaving, like this is
Speaker 1: not a permanent thing, and so the aids are taking
Speaker 1: their cues from him.
Speaker 2: So, Nathan, when you say your sources, people close to
Speaker 2: Trump were so fearful of Elon they wouldn't even you know,
Speaker 2: talk about him or throw shade, I should say at
Speaker 2: him on background, they are doing so now I think.
Speaker 1: They're just they're not as fearful as they once were.
Speaker 1: They are tired of him. He has worn out his welcome.
Speaker 1: You know, they lost that key state Supreme Court race.
Speaker 2: Remind our listeners a little bit about that for a minute.
Speaker 1: So I think Elon's been driving people in the White
Speaker 1: House crazy for months, and you know, all these doze
Speaker 1: things were you know, viewed as things that he sort
Speaker 1: of did, you know, without vetting them with the White House,
Speaker 1: sort of went ahead and charged ahead. And so a
Speaker 1: real test case of his standing in Trump world was
Speaker 1: with this, you know, state Supreme Court seat in Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: Elon was out there campaigning the weekend before, he raised
Speaker 1: a bunch of money to try to you know, in
Speaker 1: the race to back his candidate, and they lost and
Speaker 1: it was, you know, an embarrassment. And I do think
Speaker 1: Trump world right now, like the people immediately around Trump
Speaker 1: are very political people. And so that is led by
Speaker 1: his chief of staff, Susie Wilds, who is like a
Speaker 1: longtime political operative. Trump calls her the ice Maiden. You know,
Speaker 1: she looks sort of grandmotherly, but but do not fall
Speaker 1: for that. You know, she is a tough woman. Trump
Speaker 1: loves her, the family loves her, and.
Speaker 4: She's really into like as like a political person. She's
Speaker 4: really into like message discipline and I think that and
Speaker 4: like running like a disciplined political operation. And the thing
Speaker 4: that people need to learn very quickly about Elon is
Speaker 4: he is not disciplined. I mean, he will post at
Speaker 4: all hours, he will wildly cream from one position to another.
Speaker 4: He will be off message, he will be at odds
Speaker 4: with the Trump administration. And you're seeing that play out
Speaker 4: in real time today with what he's saying about Peter Navarro,
Speaker 4: who is like the lead person along with Lutnik on
Speaker 4: this whole tariff issue. So that's got to be causing
Speaker 4: more consternation internally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Max as Dennis saying here, Musk was
Speaker 2: out this morning hammering Navarro, hammering him.
Speaker 6: I don't even know if I could say I believe
Speaker 6: he called Peter Navarro Peter Retardo.
Speaker 2: I didn't see that one. He called him a total moron.
Speaker 2: No no, no, no, truly a more truly a moron,
Speaker 2: excuse me, and that what he says here is demonstrably false.
Speaker 2: He also says apparently that he is dumber than a
Speaker 2: sack of bricks. So yeah, I'm guessing at Susie wilds
Speaker 2: ain't loving now I was.
Speaker 6: I want to add a point out that, just I
Speaker 6: believe it was a week ago or a week and
Speaker 6: a half ago, Elon Musk was in a cabinet meeting
Speaker 6: wearing a hat that said Trump was right about everything.
Speaker 2: That was different than the cheese had had that was.
Speaker 6: It was it was not shaped like a wedge of cheese.
Speaker 6: It was shaped like a normal baseball cap. So huge,
Speaker 6: huge difference there. So Dan is right like Elon Musk,
Speaker 6: He's an impulsive guy. I think the inciting thing here,
Speaker 6: beyond just the tariffs and the fact that that is
Speaker 6: hurting his business. But we know for a fact that
Speaker 6: Elon Musk is willing to accept some pain, some business
Speaker 6: pain on behalf of Donald Trump. But Navarro went on,
Speaker 6: I can't remember, I think it was CNBC and he
Speaker 6: was asked a question about this, and he said that
Speaker 6: Tesla is not an American auto manufacturer, It's an American assembler,
Speaker 6: which is the worst thing you could say to Elon.
Speaker 6: I cannot imagine a worse like something that would hurt
Speaker 6: Elon Musk more than that. Number one, because he he
Speaker 6: values being a manufacturer.
Speaker 2: But number two, there is just the faintest kernel of
Speaker 2: truth to.
Speaker 6: That statement, because Tesla is modeled after these consumer electronics companies.
Speaker 2: Car similar is DEM's fighting words. I know, look you're
Speaker 2: saying to his face, and don't call me a car
Speaker 2: similar either, But I gotta say, like, you know, Elon
Speaker 2: doesn't even want the cars really to be about the hardware.
Speaker 2: They're all about the software, which is which is what
Speaker 2: is really the other big dig right. It's like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm some great, you know, brilliant, you know, technologist, And
Speaker 2: so I suppose that's what really is is part of
Speaker 2: what's got him calling Navarro Trulia moron and a set
Speaker 2: dumber than a sack of bricks. Okay, so, Nancy, we've
Speaker 2: established that he's warring with Peter Navarro. Who are his
Speaker 2: other big enemies? As do you understand it there in
Speaker 2: and around that White House?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think he's made everyone mad. Like we
Speaker 1: don't need to name names. I think you could just say,
Speaker 1: like the waterfront of top White House, aids have been
Speaker 1: annoyed by Elon or gotten into it with him, or
Speaker 1: been disappointed by his lack of message discipline, or how
Speaker 1: he's gone and done things with Doje that they didn't
Speaker 1: know about ahead of time. I mean, it has just
Speaker 1: been a problem, and people have been fearful to say anything.
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, what's happening with Navarro
Speaker 1: and Musk. It's interesting, you know. Navarro is like one
Speaker 1: of the most people who escalates, goes from like zero
Speaker 1: to one hundred faster than anyone I've ever seen. You know,
Speaker 1: in the first Trump term, he really got into it
Speaker 1: with like you know, Republicans on Capitol Hill, they hated him,
Speaker 1: you know, people in the White House hated him. But
Speaker 1: he went to jail for four months for defying a subpoena.
Speaker 1: And you cannot underestimate in Trump's mind how much that
Speaker 1: demonstrated his loyalty and the currents that he has in
Speaker 1: the West wing because of that, I think Peter Navarro
Speaker 1: is at the apex of his power right now. Whether
Speaker 1: that last, we'll see. But with these tariffs, he's really
Speaker 1: at a height of power, and for Elon to be
Speaker 1: picking a fight with him, it is just like, not
Speaker 1: good for Elon.
Speaker 2: I gotcha, No, that's fantastic stuff. I had forgotten about
Speaker 2: that time in jail he did. So let me ask
Speaker 2: you this, though, are you saying that your sense is
Speaker 2: that loyalty that I'm willing to spend time in the
Speaker 2: clink loyalty is worth more to Trump than Elon Musk's money.
Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't put it that way, but I
Speaker 1: just say, like, Musk is messing with someone who, in
Speaker 1: Trump's mind, is like just on this high perch because
Speaker 1: of the jail time, and it's just probably not a
Speaker 1: good fight to pick.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Is Trump going to exile Elon? Nope, because he wants
Speaker 1: that money for the midterms. Republicans will need that money
Speaker 1: for the midterms. But I think that my sense is
Speaker 1: that I think Trump's inner circle hopes that Elon just
Speaker 1: goes away after you know, May or June, late May
Speaker 1: or June. He can still be a friend of the
Speaker 1: White House. You know, he'll still be able to come
Speaker 1: into the West Wing. You know, maybe once or twice
Speaker 1: a week he'll show up at mar A Lago. No
Speaker 1: one thinks he's going away. Doge is there to stay.
Speaker 1: They're going to stay in the agencies. But I think
Speaker 1: that people are hoping maybe Doge is like less of
Speaker 1: a lightning rod for Democrats if Musk himself is not
Speaker 1: like jumping up on stage all the time, or with
Speaker 1: Trump all the time, or at mar A Lago, sort
Speaker 1: of like in this Buddy Cop movie.
Speaker 2: I totally agree.
Speaker 6: I think, like it's not that it's not that Musk
Speaker 6: is not going to be in Trump's orbit or whatever.
Speaker 6: It's just it's just like a mutual away that they
Speaker 6: can mutually take a step away from one another. I
Speaker 6: will say this Wisconsin race, like, I don't think we can.
Speaker 6: I don't think you'd be right to blame Elon Musk
Speaker 6: for like losing the race.
Speaker 2: Filon Musk is you can extract that variable from the
Speaker 2: whole picture. The Dems still win.
Speaker 6: I don't think we would be surprised if the Dems
Speaker 6: had won even without Elon.
Speaker 2: Musk being such a factory.
Speaker 6: But listen, like it's a low turnout election and then
Speaker 6: you know, like there been there are historical examples like
Speaker 6: like this where the candidate who just who just lost
Speaker 6: the presidency overperforms in a special lee.
Speaker 2: But I'm distracting you, But it's just.
Speaker 6: Like Nancy's right, Like Elon's big value to Trump is
Speaker 6: the mid term is like putting I don't know, hundreds
Speaker 6: of millions of dollars into midterm elections and then using
Speaker 6: the thread of that to intimidate like like other Republicans
Speaker 6: into kind of falling in line. We just saw Elon
Speaker 6: Musk put a huge amount of money like basically press
Speaker 6: the button as hard as he could for the Republican candidate,
Speaker 6: and and like nothing happened, right, Like like that's the
Speaker 6: best case.
Speaker 2: I mean nothing. I think something happened. I think he
Speaker 2: drove right, maybe he even made it worse.
Speaker 6: And so like the value of Elon Musk's presence is
Speaker 6: probably lower than it has been at any point because
Speaker 6: we're seeing Musk create all of these scandals. You know,
Speaker 6: he goes on Twitter and makes a Nazi joke, right,
Speaker 6: like that is not what that wasn't on you know,
Speaker 6: Susie Wiles's like plan for the week or whatever, and
Speaker 6: his money just is not moving the needle, or maybe
Speaker 6: is moving the needle in the wrong direction. So like
Speaker 6: there are reasons why, like somebody like Navarro would feel
Speaker 6: comfortable like going on TV and saying something that is
Speaker 6: not like one hundred percent laudatory of Elon Musk or privately,
Speaker 6: maybe you're seeing people in Trump's inner circle starting to
Speaker 6: let things slip about how they truly feel.
Speaker 4: I think originally with with Doge, like Elon was the
Speaker 4: public face of Doze, and he was like the buffer,
Speaker 4: like he absorbed the blast radius. Right, So like as
Speaker 4: people got upset about Doge, as you know, as government
Speaker 4: workers and lawsuits were filed, like Elon absorbed the blast.
Speaker 4: But now, like his his brand is so toxic nationally
Speaker 4: that like it's no longer an asset to have him
Speaker 4: so closely aligned. And you saw that in Wisconsin, and
Speaker 4: you saw that this weekend where there were massive protests
Speaker 4: like not just in New York City but in like
Speaker 4: Utah and Montana and in red states of people protesting
Speaker 4: Trump and Musk. I mean, so many of the signs
Speaker 4: that people were caring were about Musk and about Doge,
Speaker 4: and like that's got to have impact because they're seeing
Speaker 4: now like, oh, you know, like we thought, like we
Speaker 4: thought we were going to like waltz into the midterms
Speaker 4: with all of this advantage and that we were gonna
Speaker 4: have delivered all this stuff for the American people. And
Speaker 4: you're also seeing like Kimball Musk, Elon's younger. No, I'm sorry,
Speaker 4: I mean I meant like also like chiming in about
Speaker 4: how the tariffs are a bad idea, and Bill Ackman,
Speaker 4: I mean like all the billionaire the billionaires are not
Speaker 4: happy about this.
Speaker 2: Drunk the billionaires. But I mean, I don't know. I
Speaker 2: do feel like, though, Max, it is pretty insane that
Speaker 2: while Acman's out there and Jamie Diamond of JP Morgan
Speaker 2: started to make some comments and the Drunke and Miller
Speaker 2: stand Druck and Millers and others are saying things. Man,
Speaker 2: I don't know that anyone's making a bigger fuss about
Speaker 2: the tariffs than Elon Musk than the first buddy, And
Speaker 2: if you think about it, that's kind of crazy.
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't think that's totally true. There are
Speaker 6: lots of people who are mad about.
Speaker 2: The No no, no, no, I'm sorry I misspoke of major
Speaker 2: CEOs of major American companies or you know, and actually
Speaker 2: forget about Acman and druck A Miiller because they're not
Speaker 2: really CEOs of a major American companies. I mean, Jamie
Speaker 2: Diamond said some words yesterday. Then we're exactly fighting words.
Speaker 2: I mean, Elon Musk is calling the chief architect of
Speaker 2: these tariffs a moron and dumber than a second David.
Speaker 4: That's that's that's because he was.
Speaker 2: Just like normal, got to watch stuff, David. He's got to.
Speaker 4: Wind it back like that's like, because if Navarro hadn't
Speaker 4: said what he said about Tesla being an assent maker,
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 2: Think so let's wind okay, let's wind investigating that for
Speaker 2: terrorism actually, but let's wind it back before then the
Speaker 2: car assembler comment, what did had Musk said to prompt
Speaker 2: Navarro to say that? What did? What did? What Musk
Speaker 2: had been saying was these tariffs are a crap idea.
Speaker 6: No, and he had he had very gently criticized it.
Speaker 6: He had said Tesla had written a letter not from
Speaker 6: Elon Musk, but from the company just warning about retaliation,
Speaker 6: which is not exactly the same thing as saying the
Speaker 6: tariffs are bad. And Musk had said had in response
Speaker 6: to some stories maybe two weeks ago, essentially saying that
Speaker 6: Musk that Tesla was the best positioned automaker, basically a
Speaker 6: reply tweet that said we are not unaffected. So he
Speaker 6: had he had pushed back, but like he was not
Speaker 6: the Navarro thing is what has been the real Like Spark,
Speaker 6: I want to just say, to the point about protests,
Speaker 6: it's not just nationwide protests. He has also oh lost
Speaker 6: the gamers. So he went on a live stream recently
Speaker 6: in the last couple of days, and I guess now
Speaker 6: I'm reading this in a blog called futurism, so perhaps
Speaker 6: they're cherry picking quotes, but there are a lot of
Speaker 6: quotes from these gamers on Elon Musk's own live stream
Speaker 6: that were very negative. People you know, say he had
Speaker 6: no friends, siding with his strange daughter. Just kind of
Speaker 6: an ugly scene, even in a domain where like Elon Musk,
Speaker 6: you know, might otherwise expect to have mastery.
Speaker 2: He's losing friends and allies everywhere right now as we speak,
Speaker 2: I will note though, Nancy that and I'm going to
Speaker 2: bring this up in a large part to try to
Speaker 2: refute Max and Dana here, who are feuding with me
Speaker 2: right now. Senator Ted Cruz yesterday really imploring President Donald
Speaker 2: Trump to listen to the better angel perched on his shoulder,
Speaker 2: that being Elon Musk. Does Musk actually have the President's
Speaker 2: ear on this topic right now? I mean, certainly, looking
Speaker 2: at the facts, looking at the things that are coming
Speaker 2: out of Trump's mouth and the things he's doing, the
Speaker 2: answer would seem to be no. But is there any
Speaker 2: kind of line of communication on this one issue?
Speaker 1: I mean, Musk spend so much time with Trump and
Speaker 1: you know, has to cell phone and you know, talks
Speaker 1: to him all the time. But my reporting shows that,
Speaker 1: you know, he's not in these like final meetings about
Speaker 1: the tariffs. You know that group is that there was
Speaker 1: a dinner at mar A Lago the Friday night before
Speaker 1: they put out the tariffs. I'm like losing track of time.
Speaker 2: I guess this is classic and we all are and
Speaker 2: we're in Trump time now.
Speaker 1: Right, We're in Trump time. But like Lutnik was there,
Speaker 1: Howard Lutnik, for instance, the Commerce Secretary Scott Besson, the
Speaker 1: Treasury Secretary, was there. I have no reporting that suggests
Speaker 1: Elon Musk was there at that dinner or like in
Speaker 1: these final White House meetings about what they should do
Speaker 1: about the tariffs. And granted this was a contentious issue
Speaker 1: and there was differing views among Trump's economic aids. You know,
Speaker 1: Elon Musk was not in those meetings. And so of
Speaker 1: course he has influence, Like you know, one Trump person
Speaker 1: told me, you know, he will always have influence. He
Speaker 1: will always be able to access the West wing. You know,
Speaker 1: he will always be able to call Trump. Trump is
Speaker 1: impressed by the fact that he's a billionaire, you know,
Speaker 1: loves that brand name support. But but no, he was
Speaker 1: not like in the core group of people deciding what
Speaker 1: the tariffs were going to look like and going back
Speaker 1: and forth on them.
Speaker 6: I wonder how this would be playing out if if
Speaker 6: Tesla were doing a little bit better, if they weren't
Speaker 6: having these serious demand challenges, if the stock wasn't there
Speaker 6: had fallen by fifty percent. Elon Musk had lots of
Speaker 6: opportunity during the campaign to you know, like like you
Speaker 6: go back and listen to those X spaces he had,
Speaker 6: Like he didn't bring up the tariffs as a potential
Speaker 6: point of contention. I'm not sure if he even saw
Speaker 6: them as a potential point of contention back then.
Speaker 2: And so you think that's because he didn't think they
Speaker 2: were going to be a big issue, or he too
Speaker 2: was blindsided by the nature of these terrors. I think.
Speaker 6: I think think it's a combination of him, like many
Speaker 6: business leaders sort of not expecting Trump to take such
Speaker 6: a hard line here, expecting what basically Trump one point zero,
Speaker 6: the kind of more restrained version of Donald Trump. And
Speaker 6: I think it's also that he just felt like he
Speaker 6: was in a position of much greater strength. I mean,
Speaker 6: his his position has just gotten so much weaker over
Speaker 6: the past few months, and like you look at Tesla's
Speaker 6: market value, you look at the demand, you look at
Speaker 6: these protests, like he is just under a threat in
Speaker 6: a way that I don't think he anticipated. I think
Speaker 6: he thought that this was going to go a lot
Speaker 6: differently than it has gone.
Speaker 1: And also I'll just chime in, like I also think
Speaker 1: Trump has changed as a leader since he was president
Speaker 1: the first time. I think he is more self assured.
Speaker 1: He cares a lot less what people think, and a
Speaker 1: lot less like what the world thinks. You know, he
Speaker 1: used to view the stock market as a barometer, like
Speaker 1: almost like an approval rating poll. I don't think he
Speaker 1: cares that much anymore. You know, he's not running for reelection.
Speaker 1: I just think he is much more confident making decisions
Speaker 1: and letting the chips fall where they may. And also
Speaker 1: I think he's interested in a very small group of
Speaker 1: people's opinions. You know, donors and Wall Street people are
Speaker 1: largely freaking out about the tariffs. And I talked to
Speaker 1: one person yesterday. He was like, yeah, donors could call him,
Speaker 1: but there's like a very small circle of people who
Speaker 1: he would actually listen to on this, And I'm just
Speaker 1: not sure you would listen to Elon.
Speaker 2: Well, no, he's not so far listen. I wanted to
Speaker 2: ask this because Doze briefly came up here and I'm wondering, Nancy,
Speaker 2: what of Doze? As I've been asking periodically the last
Speaker 2: few weeks. It's from Afar. It seems to be petering
Speaker 2: out a little bit and losing momentum. Is that true?
Speaker 2: Or is it just going on and beavering away and
Speaker 2: doing its things? What do you mean?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, what do you mean petering? Out and losing moments.
Speaker 4: Federal workers are still getting fined.
Speaker 2: Like, what are they the savings? I thought the saving
Speaker 2: they had one hundred billion they were reporting in savings
Speaker 2: in the first two weeks. What's that number up to now?
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not tracking that that closely, like what
Speaker 1: the savings are. But I will say DOGE is not
Speaker 1: going anywhere, and people in the White House have made
Speaker 1: that clear to me. So there are still DOGE people
Speaker 1: embedded in tons of the agencies. They're still doing work
Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, they say, make the tech
Speaker 1: systems more efficient, but also define savings. They just put
Speaker 1: out another email at some agencies and then other people
Speaker 1: at other agencies are getting it, sort of offering like
Speaker 1: the second fork in the road, bigger buyout packages. I
Speaker 1: think more federal employees are thinking about taking it. So
Speaker 1: DOGE lives on, and I think will live past Elon.
Speaker 1: It just may not have sort of the controversial frontman
Speaker 1: that it had before. But there are other people in
Speaker 1: the administration who want to shrink the size of the
Speaker 1: federal government, like Russ Vote, who's the head of the OMBE,
Speaker 1: Like they haven't He doesn't necessarily like the way that
Speaker 1: Elon's gone about doing it, but there are other people
Speaker 1: in the Trump orbit who are interested in cutting the
Speaker 1: guvernant way down.
Speaker 6: So it's like a dessert fork or a fish fork
Speaker 6: instead of the main course forks.
Speaker 4: Nancy, do you think that the tariff dispute is going
Speaker 4: to be like the undoing between Musk and Trump or
Speaker 4: was it already sort of underway post Wisconsin?
Speaker 1: I think it was already frame. This is just another data.
Speaker 2: Point, Max, Dana, Nancy, thanks for joining.
Speaker 1: Me, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Thank you great to be here. This episode was produced
Speaker 2: by Stacy Wong. Anna Masirakis is our editor and Rayhan
Speaker 2: Harmansi our senior editor. The idea for this very show
Speaker 2: also came from Rayhun Blake Maples handles engineering, and Dave
Speaker 2: Purcell fact checks. Our supervising producers Magnus Henrickson. The Elining
Speaker 2: theme is written and performed by take Yasuzawa and Alex
Speaker 2: Sugi Eerra. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and
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Speaker 2: David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, rate and review
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