1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 2: Let me tell you we have a new star. A 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: star is born. 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 3: Elon comed up on mars Juson Kennemy. 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 4: He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 2: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 2: I feel for the guy. 8 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 5: I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. 9 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 5: But those two percent that are nasty, they are up 10 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 5: in four post. 11 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 2: We're meant for great things in the United States of America, 12 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 2: and Elon reminds us of that. 13 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 6: We don't have a fourth branch of governments called Elon Musk. 14 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 2: Welcome to elan Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musket's Tuesday, 15 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 2: April eighth. I'm your host, David Popotopolis. Now Here at Bloomberg, 16 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: the news has been dominated by last week's tariff announcements. 17 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 2: They've upended markets, sparked of imported olive oil and iPhones, 18 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: and created the first major policy rift between Musk and 19 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 2: President Donald Trump. All the CEOs in America, Musk, the 20 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 2: White House first buddy, has arguably been the loudest critic 21 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: of Trump's tariffs, like calling Trump's trade architect a quote 22 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 2: total moron, kind of loud. A very dangerous game here 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 2: with very high stakes. So we'll get into what the 24 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 2: tariffs mean for Musk's many businesses and then talk about 25 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 2: the political fall and the potential beginning of the end 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: for Doge. As always, I'm joined by our regulars, Dana 27 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: Hull and Max Chafkin. Dana, Hello there, Hey, hey, hey, 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 2: and Max how are you hey? David, how are you doing? Excellent? Okay? 29 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 2: And Craig Trudell, our global autozar, is on to talk 30 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: tariff nitty gritty Craig, welcome, thanks for having me. And later 31 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: on Nancy Cook, a senior reporter in Washington, will hop 32 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: on to talk politics with us. Before we talked tariffs 33 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: for one second, Max, I listened to the debut last 34 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 2: week of your new podcast, Did you wow Everybody's Business? 35 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 2: I thought it was great. 36 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 6: Yeah, Everybody's Business. We had our first episode on Friday. 37 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 6: If you didn't listen, it is a weekly show in 38 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 6: which myself and Stacey Mannix Smith, who's a wonderful financial journalist, 39 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 6: a longtime reporter, talked through the news of the week 40 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 6: and what it means it's going to be in this feed. 41 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 6: The elon ink feed every Friday for the next few weeks, 42 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 6: and then eventually if David, if you like it, we'll 43 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 6: move to our own feed and you can subscribe. And 44 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 6: we did get into the tariff talk last week in 45 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:45,399 Speaker 6: a big way. 46 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 2: All right, there are other things to talk about besides 47 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 2: everybody's business, like the tariffs, Craig Chudell. They were announced 48 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 2: last Wednesday, shocked, I think just about everybody. Markets collapsed, 49 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: tesla'st collapsed, everybody up in arms. I will note at 50 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 2: here as we record Tuesday morning, markets are relief, rebounding 51 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 2: a little bit, but still a whole lot of anxiety 52 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: out there. Craig, tell us exactly how you expect this 53 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 2: to affect the price of Tesla vehicles and how it 54 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: will affect their operations. 55 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 5: Well, so, I think we should start by talking about, 56 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 5: you know, acknowledging the fact that Tesla does sort of 57 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 5: lay claim to having the most you know, sort of 58 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 5: American made cars. 59 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: And they do this in large part. 60 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 5: There's a an annual study that this group at cars 61 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 5: dot Com does. It's called the American Made Index. They 62 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 5: look not just at the final assembly locations for vehicles, 63 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 5: but also parts content, and I think, you know, I've 64 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 5: sort of actually taken a closer look at the most 65 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 5: recent index that cars dot Com release. One of the 66 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 5: things that I found so interesting is that one of 67 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 5: the ways that they sort of one of the inputs 68 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 5: for this data is actually from a US law where 69 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 5: they include Canadian content along with US content as a 70 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 5: measure of americanness. That speaks to just, you know, just 71 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 5: how crazy the last few weeks have been for this industry. 72 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 5: That you know, it was a given that you know, 73 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 5: in the past and since nineteen ninety four, when you 74 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 5: look at, you know, a window sticker on a car 75 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 5: for what percentage of the parts content for that vehicle 76 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 5: is quote unquote made in America, Canada gets thrown in there. 77 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 5: That that speaks to just how international this industry is. 78 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: Well, and it also, I suppose speaks to how, of 79 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: course America is more than the United States. You know, 80 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: it's America and the broadest sense of America. Yeah, And 81 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 2: it was just it is what is America? What is America? 82 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 2: Canada was always just assume it was just part of US. 83 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 2: It was all just one big market. And this trade 84 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 2: war is so vast that even that is very very 85 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: very much in doubt. 86 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's up in the air. 87 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 5: And so, you know, I think while Tesla was coming 88 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 5: into this trade war from a sort of relative point 89 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 5: of strength in the fact that, you know, the vehicles 90 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 5: that they sell in the US, they make in the US, 91 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 5: they don't entirely have a US supply chain, and they 92 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 5: acknowledge that themselves back in March, in March eleventh, they 93 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 5: sent a letter to the Trump administration where they said, 94 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 5: you know, even with the aggressive localization of their supply chain, 95 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 5: there are certain parts and components that are, in their words, 96 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 5: difficult or impossible to source within. 97 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:46,679 Speaker 3: The United States. 98 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 5: And an instance of there not being any winners in 99 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 5: this trade war for the auto industry, that there may 100 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 5: be sort of you know, relative losers in terms of 101 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 5: who's losing the most. 102 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 3: But Tesla absolutely is being hit by this. 103 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 5: And I think there's also real concern about sort of 104 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 5: second order effects here that when the US puts tariffs 105 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 5: on other parts of the world, that Tesla will be 106 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 5: sort of caught up in the crossfire, that they will 107 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 5: be targeted as a result of these tariffs. 108 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 4: Yeah, and especially if China. I mean, I think the 109 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 4: big thing to think about with regards to Tesla is 110 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 4: on the one hand, they have really worked very hard 111 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 4: to localize their supply chain in every country where they 112 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 4: sell vehicles. But on the other hand, they are very 113 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 4: exposed in China, which accounts for roughly twenty percent of 114 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 4: their sales. And if the trade war escalates with China, 115 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 4: like you could see this big knockoff effect where like 116 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 4: the Chinese government encourages people to not buy Tesla's and 117 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 4: to buy domestic suppliers. 118 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 6: You know, conventional wisdom around tariffs, and Tesla has been that, 119 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 6: like Craig is saying that it's going to be the 120 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 6: least big loser among car companies. I have to say, 121 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 6: as I've watched Elon mus react to these tariffs. 122 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: It's giving me reason to doubt. 123 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 6: I am wondering how much we should credit this cars 124 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 6: dot Com list in the first place. And you know, 125 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 6: looking at the methodology, it seems like they count the 126 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 6: number of parts and then divide how many of those 127 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 6: parts come from these It's the. 128 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: Same mathematical formula they used to set the terror It just. 129 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 6: Sounds I'm just saying, are we sure that there are 130 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 6: not big unknown vulnerabilities in Tesla's supply chain? That maybe 131 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 6: people are are not considering or underrating battery components in particular, 132 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 6: that is a business that China has long dominated. I 133 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 6: know that Tesla has has battery making in the US, 134 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 6: but I have to say, like watching Elon Musk react 135 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 6: to this stuff, just it does not look like a 136 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 6: guy who's approprating from a position of strength. 137 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: I see, I see so certainly very possible. I mean, 138 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: his protestations have indeed been very very loud. But Craig, 139 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 2: I'm to go back to the beginning and the first 140 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: question I asked you, because you tap danced around it, 141 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: you can't trick me, pal. Are there car prices going 142 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 2: up already? And if not, how soon do we expect 143 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 2: them to go up? If at all? 144 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 5: We have not seen Tesla make moves to its vehicle 145 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 5: prices on its website, and I do think that that 146 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 5: will be something that we ought to watch over the 147 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 5: next you know, a few weeks in the sense that 148 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 5: they are very different from the rest of the industry. 149 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 5: Right where the manufacturers suggested retail prices you know, tend 150 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 5: to be kept pretty static by the rest of the industry. 151 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 5: Other automakers, they don't, you know, sort of mess around 152 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 5: with MSRPs. Tesla is very different in that, you know, 153 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 5: and we saw that coming out of the pandemic right 154 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 5: where or early on in the pandemic, we saw them 155 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 5: jack up prices in this is very open way along 156 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 5: with the rest of the industry, where because everybody was 157 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 5: production constrained. 158 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: Let me pause there for a second, So you're saying 159 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 2: that when we had the last major supply shock, which 160 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: is essentially what this is. These tariffs are a supply 161 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: side shock, Tesla was the first and the most aggressive 162 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 2: in jacking up prices of the major automakers. 163 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 3: I think they were. 164 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 5: They were both aggressive and the way that they moved, 165 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 5: but also just much more open where because they don't 166 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 5: have a dealer base, because they don't have dealers and 167 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 5: independent retailers who in the end get to go with 168 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 5: the manufacturers suggested retail price are not. 169 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 3: They set their own prices. 170 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 5: And they do so very openly for everyone to see 171 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 5: on their website, and so they're unique. And yeah, you know, 172 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 5: just as Musk is loud and the way he protests 173 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 5: and the way he does virtually everything, Tesla is very 174 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 5: loud and how they set their prices. I also think, 175 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 5: you know, whereas other manufacturers may have, you know, no 176 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 5: choice but to jack up prices. I do wonder how 177 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 5: much you know, sort of ability Tesla has to use 178 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 5: pricing power, given the fact that they really, you know, 179 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 5: have started from such a hole in terms of you know, 180 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 5: the first quarter delivery numbers that they reported last week 181 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 5: were awful, and you know, they were off of a 182 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 5: awful base a year ago. So for them to start 183 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 5: the year by saying, you know, we expect to return 184 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 5: to growth, they've really got to sort of you know, move. 185 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 3: The metal this year. 186 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 5: And will we see them keeping pricing steady and eating 187 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 5: these tariffs. 188 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 3: More so than other carmakers. 189 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: Okay, we are going to leave the teriff side of 190 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: this for here, at least the mechanical and the nitty 191 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: gritti sid of the teriff side. Here, Craig driudell as always, sir, 192 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: thank you for joining us. 193 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 3: Thanks chuys. 194 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: Oh and by the way, Craig, shout as soon as 195 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: you see price increases, if you do see them. 196 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 3: Absolutely, thanks gus. 197 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 2: Awesome man. Okay, we're now joined by Nancy Cook, a 198 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: senior correspondent for US in Washington. Nancy, Hello, thanks for 199 00:10:55,559 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 2: having me. Okay, now, So, Nancy, as I got it say, 200 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: it seems as I watched the ixing and the posting 201 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: on social media, it seems to be getting pretty hot 202 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: and heavy right now between Elon Musk and several members 203 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: of the Trump inner circle, in particular with one Peter Navarro. Navarro, 204 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: of course, helped steer Trump to these very aggressive tariffs, 205 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: Musk is dead set against them. Tell us, how do 206 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: you see this playing out and what does it look 207 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: like up close and personal there in DC. 208 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: Well, so, I think that what is happening is that 209 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: Elon musk time in the White House is coming to 210 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: an end, and you know he is going to leave, 211 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, roughly at the one hundred and thirty day mark. 212 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,959 Speaker 1: How the White House Counsel's Office kind of calculates that 213 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: is still up for grubs, but we're expecting him to 214 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: leave around May or June. You know, he has driven 215 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: a lot of White House aids nuts and has stepped 216 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: on a lot of toes. And I think you know 217 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: now that Trump is also previewing that he's going to 218 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: be leaving. I just think that everything, things that were 219 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: happening behind the scenes are sort of spilling out into 220 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: the open. A bit more. 221 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: And when you say he's driving members of the inner 222 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: circle nuts, who and exactly how is that playing it? 223 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 2: What does that look like? 224 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: So what has happened is that I think people have 225 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: been very cautious around him. A lot of Trump sort 226 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: of people in the White House but also advisors and 227 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: allies around him have been very cautious. 228 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 2: But when you say cautious, seem me like fearful. 229 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: Fearful exactly. That's a good word, better word. They have 230 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: been fearful to criticize Musk because he was like Trump's 231 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: bff for a long time and sort of still is 232 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: around all the time. You know, he was at Mar 233 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: A Lago, he was kind of like living down there, 234 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: but also in DC. He was on Air Force one 235 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: all the time. He had given so much money to 236 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: the campaign, And it was funny because I would make 237 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: all these calls to you know, Trump people when Elon 238 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: first really stowed up in the White House and was 239 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: doing all these dotge cuts, and people were so fearful 240 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: to kind of say anything negative about him, even on background. 241 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: And I do think that that has changed a little bit. 242 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: You know, they take their cues from the President. I think, 243 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: you know, President Trump still is, I think, on pretty 244 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: good terms with Elon, but is starting, I think to 245 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: see that he has is becoming at a little bit 246 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: of a political liability. And Trump himself has sort of 247 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: said Elon is going to be leaving, like this is 248 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: not a permanent thing, and so the aids are taking 249 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: their cues from him. 250 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 2: So, Nathan, when you say your sources, people close to 251 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 2: Trump were so fearful of Elon they wouldn't even you know, 252 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: talk about him or throw shade, I should say at 253 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: him on background, they are doing so now I think. 254 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: They're just they're not as fearful as they once were. 255 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: They are tired of him. He has worn out his welcome. 256 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: You know, they lost that key state Supreme Court race. 257 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 2: Remind our listeners a little bit about that for a minute. 258 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: So I think Elon's been driving people in the White 259 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: House crazy for months, and you know, all these doze 260 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: things were you know, viewed as things that he sort 261 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: of did, you know, without vetting them with the White House, 262 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: sort of went ahead and charged ahead. And so a 263 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: real test case of his standing in Trump world was 264 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: with this, you know, state Supreme Court seat in Wisconsin. 265 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: Elon was out there campaigning the weekend before, he raised 266 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: a bunch of money to try to you know, in 267 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: the race to back his candidate, and they lost and 268 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: it was, you know, an embarrassment. And I do think 269 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: Trump world right now, like the people immediately around Trump 270 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: are very political people. And so that is led by 271 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: his chief of staff, Susie Wilds, who is like a 272 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: longtime political operative. Trump calls her the ice Maiden. You know, 273 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: she looks sort of grandmotherly, but but do not fall 274 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: for that. You know, she is a tough woman. Trump 275 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: loves her, the family loves her, and. 276 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 4: She's really into like as like a political person. She's 277 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 4: really into like message discipline and I think that and 278 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 4: like running like a disciplined political operation. And the thing 279 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 4: that people need to learn very quickly about Elon is 280 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 4: he is not disciplined. I mean, he will post at 281 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 4: all hours, he will wildly cream from one position to another. 282 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 4: He will be off message, he will be at odds 283 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 4: with the Trump administration. And you're seeing that play out 284 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 4: in real time today with what he's saying about Peter Navarro, 285 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 4: who is like the lead person along with Lutnik on 286 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 4: this whole tariff issue. So that's got to be causing 287 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 4: more consternation internally. 288 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Max as Dennis saying here, Musk was 289 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: out this morning hammering Navarro, hammering him. 290 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 6: I don't even know if I could say I believe 291 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 6: he called Peter Navarro Peter Retardo. 292 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: I didn't see that one. He called him a total moron. 293 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: No no, no, no, truly a more truly a moron, 294 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: excuse me, and that what he says here is demonstrably false. 295 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: He also says apparently that he is dumber than a 296 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: sack of bricks. So yeah, I'm guessing at Susie wilds 297 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: ain't loving now I was. 298 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 6: I want to add a point out that, just I 299 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 6: believe it was a week ago or a week and 300 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 6: a half ago, Elon Musk was in a cabinet meeting 301 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 6: wearing a hat that said Trump was right about everything. 302 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 2: That was different than the cheese had had that was. 303 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 6: It was it was not shaped like a wedge of cheese. 304 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 6: It was shaped like a normal baseball cap. So huge, 305 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 6: huge difference there. So Dan is right like Elon Musk, 306 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 6: He's an impulsive guy. I think the inciting thing here, 307 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 6: beyond just the tariffs and the fact that that is 308 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 6: hurting his business. But we know for a fact that 309 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 6: Elon Musk is willing to accept some pain, some business 310 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 6: pain on behalf of Donald Trump. But Navarro went on, 311 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 6: I can't remember, I think it was CNBC and he 312 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 6: was asked a question about this, and he said that 313 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,479 Speaker 6: Tesla is not an American auto manufacturer, It's an American assembler, 314 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 6: which is the worst thing you could say to Elon. 315 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 6: I cannot imagine a worse like something that would hurt 316 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 6: Elon Musk more than that. Number one, because he he 317 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 6: values being a manufacturer. 318 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 2: But number two, there is just the faintest kernel of 319 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 2: truth to. 320 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 6: That statement, because Tesla is modeled after these consumer electronics companies. 321 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 2: Car similar is DEM's fighting words. I know, look you're 322 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 2: saying to his face, and don't call me a car 323 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 2: similar either, But I gotta say, like, you know, Elon 324 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 2: doesn't even want the cars really to be about the hardware. 325 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 2: They're all about the software, which is which is what 326 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: is really the other big dig right. It's like, no, 327 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 2: I'm some great, you know, brilliant, you know, technologist, And 328 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: so I suppose that's what really is is part of 329 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 2: what's got him calling Navarro Trulia moron and a set 330 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: dumber than a sack of bricks. Okay, so, Nancy, we've 331 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: established that he's warring with Peter Navarro. Who are his 332 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: other big enemies? As do you understand it there in 333 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 2: and around that White House? 334 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I think he's made everyone mad. Like we 335 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: don't need to name names. I think you could just say, 336 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: like the waterfront of top White House, aids have been 337 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: annoyed by Elon or gotten into it with him, or 338 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: been disappointed by his lack of message discipline, or how 339 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: he's gone and done things with Doje that they didn't 340 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: know about ahead of time. I mean, it has just 341 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: been a problem, and people have been fearful to say anything. 342 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: And I think that you know, what's happening with Navarro 343 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: and Musk. It's interesting, you know. Navarro is like one 344 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: of the most people who escalates, goes from like zero 345 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: to one hundred faster than anyone I've ever seen. You know, 346 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: in the first Trump term, he really got into it 347 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: with like you know, Republicans on Capitol Hill, they hated him, 348 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, people in the White House hated him. But 349 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: he went to jail for four months for defying a subpoena. 350 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: And you cannot underestimate in Trump's mind how much that 351 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: demonstrated his loyalty and the currents that he has in 352 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: the West wing because of that, I think Peter Navarro 353 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: is at the apex of his power right now. Whether 354 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: that last, we'll see. But with these tariffs, he's really 355 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: at a height of power, and for Elon to be 356 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: picking a fight with him, it is just like, not 357 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: good for Elon. 358 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 2: I gotcha, No, that's fantastic stuff. I had forgotten about 359 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: that time in jail he did. So let me ask 360 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: you this, though, are you saying that your sense is 361 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: that loyalty that I'm willing to spend time in the 362 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 2: clink loyalty is worth more to Trump than Elon Musk's money. 363 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't put it that way, but I 364 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: just say, like, Musk is messing with someone who, in 365 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: Trump's mind, is like just on this high perch because 366 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: of the jail time, and it's just probably not a 367 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: good fight to pick. 368 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 2: Now. 369 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: Is Trump going to exile Elon? Nope, because he wants 370 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: that money for the midterms. Republicans will need that money 371 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: for the midterms. But I think that my sense is 372 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: that I think Trump's inner circle hopes that Elon just 373 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 1: goes away after you know, May or June, late May 374 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: or June. He can still be a friend of the 375 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: White House. You know, he'll still be able to come 376 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: into the West Wing. You know, maybe once or twice 377 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: a week he'll show up at mar A Lago. No 378 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: one thinks he's going away. Doge is there to stay. 379 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: They're going to stay in the agencies. But I think 380 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: that people are hoping maybe Doge is like less of 381 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: a lightning rod for Democrats if Musk himself is not 382 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: like jumping up on stage all the time, or with 383 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: Trump all the time, or at mar A Lago, sort 384 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: of like in this Buddy Cop movie. 385 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 2: I totally agree. 386 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 6: I think, like it's not that it's not that Musk 387 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 6: is not going to be in Trump's orbit or whatever. 388 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 6: It's just it's just like a mutual away that they 389 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 6: can mutually take a step away from one another. I 390 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 6: will say this Wisconsin race, like, I don't think we can. 391 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 6: I don't think you'd be right to blame Elon Musk 392 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 6: for like losing the race. 393 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 2: Filon Musk is you can extract that variable from the 394 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: whole picture. The Dems still win. 395 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 6: I don't think we would be surprised if the Dems 396 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 6: had won even without Elon. 397 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: Musk being such a factory. 398 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 6: But listen, like it's a low turnout election and then 399 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 6: you know, like there been there are historical examples like 400 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 6: like this where the candidate who just who just lost 401 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 6: the presidency overperforms in a special lee. 402 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 2: But I'm distracting you, But it's just. 403 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,959 Speaker 6: Like Nancy's right, Like Elon's big value to Trump is 404 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 6: the mid term is like putting I don't know, hundreds 405 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 6: of millions of dollars into midterm elections and then using 406 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 6: the thread of that to intimidate like like other Republicans 407 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 6: into kind of falling in line. We just saw Elon 408 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 6: Musk put a huge amount of money like basically press 409 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 6: the button as hard as he could for the Republican candidate, 410 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 6: and and like nothing happened, right, Like like that's the 411 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 6: best case. 412 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 2: I mean nothing. I think something happened. I think he 413 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: drove right, maybe he even made it worse. 414 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 6: And so like the value of Elon Musk's presence is 415 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 6: probably lower than it has been at any point because 416 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 6: we're seeing Musk create all of these scandals. You know, 417 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 6: he goes on Twitter and makes a Nazi joke, right, 418 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 6: like that is not what that wasn't on you know, 419 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 6: Susie Wiles's like plan for the week or whatever, and 420 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 6: his money just is not moving the needle, or maybe 421 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 6: is moving the needle in the wrong direction. So like 422 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 6: there are reasons why, like somebody like Navarro would feel 423 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:31,239 Speaker 6: comfortable like going on TV and saying something that is 424 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 6: not like one hundred percent laudatory of Elon Musk or privately, 425 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 6: maybe you're seeing people in Trump's inner circle starting to 426 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 6: let things slip about how they truly feel. 427 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 4: I think originally with with Doge, like Elon was the 428 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 4: public face of Doze, and he was like the buffer, 429 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 4: like he absorbed the blast radius. Right, So like as 430 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 4: people got upset about Doge, as you know, as government 431 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 4: workers and lawsuits were filed, like Elon absorbed the blast. 432 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 4: But now, like his his brand is so toxic nationally 433 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 4: that like it's no longer an asset to have him 434 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 4: so closely aligned. And you saw that in Wisconsin, and 435 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 4: you saw that this weekend where there were massive protests 436 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 4: like not just in New York City but in like 437 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 4: Utah and Montana and in red states of people protesting 438 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 4: Trump and Musk. I mean, so many of the signs 439 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 4: that people were caring were about Musk and about Doge, 440 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 4: and like that's got to have impact because they're seeing 441 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 4: now like, oh, you know, like we thought, like we 442 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 4: thought we were going to like waltz into the midterms 443 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 4: with all of this advantage and that we were gonna 444 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 4: have delivered all this stuff for the American people. And 445 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 4: you're also seeing like Kimball Musk, Elon's younger. No, I'm sorry, 446 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 4: I mean I meant like also like chiming in about 447 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 4: how the tariffs are a bad idea, and Bill Ackman, 448 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 4: I mean like all the billionaire the billionaires are not 449 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 4: happy about this. 450 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 2: Drunk the billionaires. But I mean, I don't know. I 451 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 2: do feel like, though, Max, it is pretty insane that 452 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 2: while Acman's out there and Jamie Diamond of JP Morgan 453 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 2: started to make some comments and the Drunke and Miller 454 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 2: stand Druck and Millers and others are saying things. Man, 455 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 2: I don't know that anyone's making a bigger fuss about 456 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 2: the tariffs than Elon Musk than the first buddy, And 457 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: if you think about it, that's kind of crazy. 458 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 6: I mean, I don't think that's totally true. There are 459 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 6: lots of people who are mad about. 460 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: The No no, no, no, I'm sorry I misspoke of major 461 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 2: CEOs of major American companies or you know, and actually 462 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 2: forget about Acman and druck A Miiller because they're not 463 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: really CEOs of a major American companies. I mean, Jamie 464 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 2: Diamond said some words yesterday. Then we're exactly fighting words. 465 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 2: I mean, Elon Musk is calling the chief architect of 466 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 2: these tariffs a moron and dumber than a second David. 467 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 4: That's that's that's because he was. 468 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: Just like normal, got to watch stuff, David. He's got to. 469 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 4: Wind it back like that's like, because if Navarro hadn't 470 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 4: said what he said about Tesla being an assent maker, 471 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 4: I don't. 472 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: Think so let's wind okay, let's wind investigating that for 473 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: terrorism actually, but let's wind it back before then the 474 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 2: car assembler comment, what did had Musk said to prompt 475 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 2: Navarro to say that? What did? What did? What Musk 476 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: had been saying was these tariffs are a crap idea. 477 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 6: No, and he had he had very gently criticized it. 478 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 6: He had said Tesla had written a letter not from 479 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 6: Elon Musk, but from the company just warning about retaliation, 480 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 6: which is not exactly the same thing as saying the 481 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 6: tariffs are bad. And Musk had said had in response 482 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 6: to some stories maybe two weeks ago, essentially saying that 483 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 6: Musk that Tesla was the best positioned automaker, basically a 484 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 6: reply tweet that said we are not unaffected. So he 485 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 6: had he had pushed back, but like he was not 486 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 6: the Navarro thing is what has been the real Like Spark, 487 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 6: I want to just say, to the point about protests, 488 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 6: it's not just nationwide protests. He has also oh lost 489 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 6: the gamers. So he went on a live stream recently 490 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 6: in the last couple of days, and I guess now 491 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 6: I'm reading this in a blog called futurism, so perhaps 492 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 6: they're cherry picking quotes, but there are a lot of 493 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 6: quotes from these gamers on Elon Musk's own live stream 494 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 6: that were very negative. People you know, say he had 495 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 6: no friends, siding with his strange daughter. Just kind of 496 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 6: an ugly scene, even in a domain where like Elon Musk, 497 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 6: you know, might otherwise expect to have mastery. 498 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: He's losing friends and allies everywhere right now as we speak, 499 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 2: I will note though, Nancy that and I'm going to 500 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 2: bring this up in a large part to try to 501 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 2: refute Max and Dana here, who are feuding with me 502 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: right now. Senator Ted Cruz yesterday really imploring President Donald 503 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: Trump to listen to the better angel perched on his shoulder, 504 00:26:53,720 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 2: that being Elon Musk. Does Musk actually have the President's 505 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 2: ear on this topic right now? I mean, certainly, looking 506 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: at the facts, looking at the things that are coming 507 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: out of Trump's mouth and the things he's doing, the 508 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 2: answer would seem to be no. But is there any 509 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 2: kind of line of communication on this one issue? 510 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: I mean, Musk spend so much time with Trump and 511 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, has to cell phone and you know, talks 512 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: to him all the time. But my reporting shows that, 513 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: you know, he's not in these like final meetings about 514 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: the tariffs. You know that group is that there was 515 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 1: a dinner at mar A Lago the Friday night before 516 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: they put out the tariffs. I'm like losing track of time. 517 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 2: I guess this is classic and we all are and 518 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 2: we're in Trump time now. 519 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: Right, We're in Trump time. But like Lutnik was there, 520 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: Howard Lutnik, for instance, the Commerce Secretary Scott Besson, the 521 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: Treasury Secretary, was there. I have no reporting that suggests 522 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: Elon Musk was there at that dinner or like in 523 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: these final White House meetings about what they should do 524 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: about the tariffs. And granted this was a contentious issue 525 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: and there was differing views among Trump's economic aids. You know, 526 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,719 Speaker 1: Elon Musk was not in those meetings. And so of 527 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: course he has influence, Like you know, one Trump person 528 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: told me, you know, he will always have influence. He 529 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: will always be able to access the West wing. You know, 530 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: he will always be able to call Trump. Trump is 531 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: impressed by the fact that he's a billionaire, you know, 532 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: loves that brand name support. But but no, he was 533 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: not like in the core group of people deciding what 534 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: the tariffs were going to look like and going back 535 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: and forth on them. 536 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 6: I wonder how this would be playing out if if 537 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 6: Tesla were doing a little bit better, if they weren't 538 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 6: having these serious demand challenges, if the stock wasn't there 539 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 6: had fallen by fifty percent. Elon Musk had lots of 540 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 6: opportunity during the campaign to you know, like like you 541 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 6: go back and listen to those X spaces he had, 542 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 6: Like he didn't bring up the tariffs as a potential 543 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 6: point of contention. I'm not sure if he even saw 544 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 6: them as a potential point of contention back then. 545 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: And so you think that's because he didn't think they 546 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: were going to be a big issue, or he too 547 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: was blindsided by the nature of these terrors. I think. 548 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 6: I think think it's a combination of him, like many 549 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 6: business leaders sort of not expecting Trump to take such 550 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 6: a hard line here, expecting what basically Trump one point zero, 551 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 6: the kind of more restrained version of Donald Trump. And 552 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 6: I think it's also that he just felt like he 553 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 6: was in a position of much greater strength. I mean, 554 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 6: his his position has just gotten so much weaker over 555 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 6: the past few months, and like you look at Tesla's 556 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 6: market value, you look at the demand, you look at 557 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 6: these protests, like he is just under a threat in 558 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 6: a way that I don't think he anticipated. I think 559 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 6: he thought that this was going to go a lot 560 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 6: differently than it has gone. 561 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: And also I'll just chime in, like I also think 562 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: Trump has changed as a leader since he was president 563 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: the first time. I think he is more self assured. 564 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: He cares a lot less what people think, and a 565 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: lot less like what the world thinks. You know, he 566 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: used to view the stock market as a barometer, like 567 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: almost like an approval rating poll. I don't think he 568 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: cares that much anymore. You know, he's not running for reelection. 569 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: I just think he is much more confident making decisions 570 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: and letting the chips fall where they may. And also 571 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: I think he's interested in a very small group of 572 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: people's opinions. You know, donors and Wall Street people are 573 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: largely freaking out about the tariffs. And I talked to 574 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: one person yesterday. He was like, yeah, donors could call him, 575 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: but there's like a very small circle of people who 576 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: he would actually listen to on this, And I'm just 577 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: not sure you would listen to Elon. 578 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: Well, no, he's not so far listen. I wanted to 579 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 2: ask this because Doze briefly came up here and I'm wondering, Nancy, 580 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 2: what of Doze? As I've been asking periodically the last 581 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: few weeks. It's from Afar. It seems to be petering 582 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: out a little bit and losing momentum. Is that true? 583 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: Or is it just going on and beavering away and 584 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: doing its things? What do you mean? 585 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 3: What? 586 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 4: I'm sorry, what do you mean petering? Out and losing moments. 587 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 4: Federal workers are still getting fined. 588 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 2: Like, what are they the savings? I thought the saving 589 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 2: they had one hundred billion they were reporting in savings 590 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 2: in the first two weeks. What's that number up to now? 591 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not tracking that that closely, like what 592 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: the savings are. But I will say DOGE is not 593 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: going anywhere, and people in the White House have made 594 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: that clear to me. So there are still DOGE people 595 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: embedded in tons of the agencies. They're still doing work 596 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, they say, make the tech 597 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: systems more efficient, but also define savings. They just put 598 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: out another email at some agencies and then other people 599 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: at other agencies are getting it, sort of offering like 600 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: the second fork in the road, bigger buyout packages. I 601 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: think more federal employees are thinking about taking it. So 602 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: DOGE lives on, and I think will live past Elon. 603 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: It just may not have sort of the controversial frontman 604 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: that it had before. But there are other people in 605 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: the administration who want to shrink the size of the 606 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,479 Speaker 1: federal government, like Russ Vote, who's the head of the OMBE, 607 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: Like they haven't He doesn't necessarily like the way that 608 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: Elon's gone about doing it, but there are other people 609 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: in the Trump orbit who are interested in cutting the 610 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: guvernant way down. 611 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 6: So it's like a dessert fork or a fish fork 612 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 6: instead of the main course forks. 613 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 4: Nancy, do you think that the tariff dispute is going 614 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 4: to be like the undoing between Musk and Trump or 615 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,959 Speaker 4: was it already sort of underway post Wisconsin? 616 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: I think it was already frame. This is just another data. 617 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 2: Point, Max, Dana, Nancy, thanks for joining. 618 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: Me, Thanks for having me. 619 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 2: Thank you great to be here. This episode was produced 620 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 2: by Stacy Wong. Anna Masirakis is our editor and Rayhan 621 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: Harmansi our senior editor. The idea for this very show 622 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 2: also came from Rayhun Blake Maples handles engineering, and Dave 623 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: Purcell fact checks. Our supervising producers Magnus Henrickson. The Elining 624 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 2: theme is written and performed by take Yasuzawa and Alex 625 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: Sugi Eerra. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and 626 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 2: Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big 627 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: thanks to our supporters Joel Webber and Brad Stone. I'm 628 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 2: David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, rate and review 629 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 2: our show, it'll help other listeners find us. See you 630 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: next week.