Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters
Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The
Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I
Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know
Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl
Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but true story
Speaker 1: of George Ramus. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer
Speaker 1: who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition
Speaker 1: dramas is the biggest man in the business, but George
Speaker 1: Remus's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading
Speaker 1: to betrayal, revenge, and one of the most sensational murder
Speaker 1: trials in American history. Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg
Speaker 1: King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. So she's lying. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying she lives, says she's mistaken, but everybody else's lying.
Speaker 1: I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lyon about
Speaker 1: that night. Angela Knappa. If you listen to A G.
Speaker 1: Hammers and I think if I'm sitting there as a
Speaker 1: juror if they paid as close attention to this trial
Speaker 1: as I have, that's a red flag. What happens to
Speaker 1: you if you come in here and admit that you
Speaker 1: and your brother and your father slaughtered perfectly innocent people
Speaker 1: who lay asleep in their beds. Do you want to
Speaker 1: hear answer? Well, I feel we should happen to anybody
Speaker 1: that would do that. I want to know what happens
Speaker 1: to you if you come in here and admit that
Speaker 1: what should happen to anybody is they should have death
Speaker 1: given to them. This is the Pipes and Masker returned
Speaker 1: to Pike County season four, episode twenty three, George Wagner's
Speaker 1: final day on the stand. M Courtney Armstrong, a television
Speaker 1: producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane.
Speaker 1: It's important to note that Orge Wagner the fourth has
Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone.
Speaker 1: His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also
Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty to all charges after answering more than
Speaker 1: seven hours worth of questions from his own lawyer the
Speaker 1: day before, George wagner surprising testimony continues for a second day.
Speaker 1: Wagner continued defending himself, denying any involvement in the murders.
Speaker 1: He insisted he took no part in planning or covering
Speaker 1: up the brutal murders. But on a second day of testimony,
Speaker 1: George Wagner faced a far more aggressive line of questioning
Speaker 1: from prosecutor Auntiwa Kineppa. She questioned his credibility, honesty, and
Speaker 1: the multiple inconsistencies from previous statements George Wagner gave to investigators.
Speaker 1: George Wagner back on the stand for a second day.
Speaker 1: He is on trial for murder in the Pike County
Speaker 1: massacre that happened in twenty sixteen. Wearing a light blue
Speaker 1: collared dress shirt, a dark tie, and black vest, George
Speaker 1: Wagner the fourth returned to the stand on the forty
Speaker 1: third day of his child defense attorney John Parker started
Speaker 1: the morning by asking George Wagner about his use of Facebook.
Speaker 1: Now George use Facebook on and off. Wagner said he
Speaker 1: occasionally used Facebook to buy and sell items like truck
Speaker 1: parts on its marketplace app, and to talk to friends,
Speaker 1: including Frankie Rodin. With respect of Facebook, did you ever
Speaker 1: know of your mother to use your account? Not to
Speaker 1: my knowledge. Did you ever know whether your mother obtained
Speaker 1: a password? Not to my knowledge. However, George testified his
Speaker 1: mother was constantly trying to access as social media passwords.
Speaker 1: Did you ever have an issue with your mother trying
Speaker 1: to access your fault her? Not really, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: say accessing, but constantly looking over my shoulder trying to
Speaker 1: get password to it. I changed my password like daily
Speaker 1: because she would try and figure out what my password was.
Speaker 1: How do you know that she was always looking over
Speaker 1: my shoulder when I put my password in? Is that
Speaker 1: before the murders a quarterback? Is I've had an iPhone?
Speaker 1: George also said he was aware of the gofund me
Speaker 1: page his brother Jake created, but also that he had
Speaker 1: nothing to do with it. Defense attorney John Parker then
Speaker 1: shifted the conversation to George's mindset after the murders and
Speaker 1: now I viewed the police investigation. After being questioned at
Speaker 1: the Montana border in twenty seventeen, George Wagner said he
Speaker 1: didn't know if his shrug was bugged and his phone
Speaker 1: was tapped, but he said he assumed they were during
Speaker 1: that time frame. What was your mindset, so to speak,
Speaker 1: about the investigation and whether your family was guilty or
Speaker 1: not guilty? What was your mindset? Though? I believe that
Speaker 1: they were just trying to frame my mom and my
Speaker 1: brother and my family for the fact that they didn't
Speaker 1: have anybody else to look at. Why did you think that?
Speaker 1: Because I was raised to believe it all law enforcement
Speaker 1: was crooked, and I thought they just wanted to close
Speaker 1: the case and didn't care about it being right or wrong.
Speaker 1: The fear of law enforcement also led George to think
Speaker 1: his brother Jake's new wife, Elizabeth, was likely an informant.
Speaker 1: From the way I understood it was that BC I
Speaker 1: would stoop to any level to get information about my family,
Speaker 1: and that they would try and send a woman in
Speaker 1: there to get close to me or my brother and
Speaker 1: get information. Does that explain some of the conversations we
Speaker 1: heard on the recordings between you and your brother about that. Yes,
Speaker 1: because she didn't know my brother at all and married
Speaker 1: him within like three months, and I just didn't trust that,
Speaker 1: not with everything that our family was being accused of.
Speaker 1: George also testified he questioned Elizabeth's motives and that he
Speaker 1: did not trust her. Why not multiple different reasons. Reason one,
Speaker 1: when she first broke up my brother and then got
Speaker 1: back with him, I just thought it was weird that
Speaker 1: somebody who met a complete stranger would want to be
Speaker 1: with somebody who was accused of what we were being
Speaker 1: accused of. All right, Were there other reason? Yes? The
Speaker 1: second reason was she had come up with a story
Speaker 1: about her childhood that she and her brothers and her
Speaker 1: mother was a part of some cult for some church
Speaker 1: in Texas, and I had a guess the church ended
Speaker 1: up selling kids the sex slavery or something like that.
Speaker 1: All right, was there any other The other one was
Speaker 1: I came home from work one week and my son
Speaker 1: said that Bessett told him that you shoot bad people
Speaker 1: with a or fifteenth. George Wagner said he told his
Speaker 1: family he didn't want Elizabeth living with them after they
Speaker 1: returned to Ohio. I just didn't feel my son was
Speaker 1: safe around her. Did you want to kill her? No?
Speaker 1: What did you want? I just wanted her to move
Speaker 1: out of the house. Wanting to drive home the point
Speaker 1: that George Wagner was a loving and carrying uncle. Attorney
Speaker 1: John Parker asked George about his nickname for his niece.
Speaker 1: George said that when Jake and Hannah's daughter was a
Speaker 1: bag maybe he began to playfully call her SUTs. She
Speaker 1: was playing one day in a bucket full of water
Speaker 1: that she was sitting in it was Fiel full of soap,
Speaker 1: and so you gave her the nickname Suggs. Yes. After
Speaker 1: Hannah's death, George said he would regularly talk to Jake
Speaker 1: about his daughter. During those conversations, did you know that
Speaker 1: he had killed her. Now, what was his demeanor when
Speaker 1: you brought up sucks? Depends on what I was going on,
Speaker 1: But usually it turned into a fight in an argument
Speaker 1: about what. Anytime I would save it made a face
Speaker 1: like Hannah, or looked like Hannah, or was acting like Hannah,
Speaker 1: he would throw a fit. You loved your son quite obviously, right, Yes?
Speaker 1: Did you love sucks? Yes? Did you kill these people
Speaker 1: for her? Now? Would you ever do that? Now? Here's
Speaker 1: Jeff and Stephanie. Do you think, steph that this testimony
Speaker 1: humanizess George Wigner and anyway? I mean, look, even if
Speaker 1: it does humanize him, both things can be true. I
Speaker 1: think if we've learned anything just in the process of
Speaker 1: making this podcast and following it for as long as
Speaker 1: we have, it's just that certain people can be a
Speaker 1: lot of things at the same time. So on the
Speaker 1: one hand, yes, maybe this does make him seem more compassionate,
Speaker 1: and on the other he's being accused of commiserating to
Speaker 1: murder of a people that, according to this compassionate testimony,
Speaker 1: he knew very well. And both things may be true.
Speaker 1: This is a good example of the defense adding a
Speaker 1: rational look into George Wagner's thought process. It's very well explained.
Speaker 1: It sounds logical. I mean, he makes pretty rational points
Speaker 1: about why Jake's relationship with Elizabeth is odd and it
Speaker 1: could raise possible doubts about Elizabeth's judgment, which, as we know,
Speaker 1: is the prosecution's goal to poke holes in the defense's
Speaker 1: story because all they have to do is just term
Speaker 1: one juror in favor of George. I would imagine too,
Speaker 1: if in fact, he knew what hot water he and
Speaker 1: his family were in at that time. The idea of
Speaker 1: adding a new person just seems nuts. On the one hand,
Speaker 1: it shows that Jake wanted to marry Elizabeth before they
Speaker 1: return to piked In. And on the other side of it,
Speaker 1: why would you add somebody else to the equation that
Speaker 1: has to keep your story straight? And if George presents
Speaker 1: himself as empathetic and slightly compassionate or is adding context
Speaker 1: to the dynamics, one person can decide his fate. Well,
Speaker 1: he loved his niece, George said he and Jake also
Speaker 1: fought and disagreed about how to raise their children. Here again,
Speaker 1: defense attorney John Parker speaking with George Wagner the fourth
Speaker 1: did you and your brother have the same ideas on
Speaker 1: how to raise your respective children. No can fire a
Speaker 1: long shot? Can you explain? And my brother wanted to
Speaker 1: basically keep chained up in the house for her entire
Speaker 1: life until she graduated higher college. What was your idea
Speaker 1: of how to raise it? My idea of it was,
Speaker 1: I guess you could see a spoiled him. What was
Speaker 1: I didn't never tell him know whatever he wanted, I
Speaker 1: got it for him, and I got a lot of
Speaker 1: hell over that. And my main plan was that eventually
Speaker 1: when he was older. All kids are going to be kids,
Speaker 1: regardless of what you say or do. They're going to
Speaker 1: make their own mistakes. I've made mine, everybody I knows
Speaker 1: made theirs, and they're going to do it anywhere, whether
Speaker 1: you tell them about too or whether you tell them
Speaker 1: to do what, they're going to do it. So my
Speaker 1: way of fixing that was I was just going to
Speaker 1: end up building like a great big lake one day
Speaker 1: on whatever piece of property I bought, and have its
Speaker 1: own cabin on it from time he turned as teenager,
Speaker 1: so when he was out drinking and party in which
Speaker 1: he's going to do all kids do it, that he
Speaker 1: would be there and I wouldn't worry about running up
Speaker 1: and down the roads instead of him being running everywhere
Speaker 1: like I did. Did you discuss this with your brother? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Did you discuss Jake's philosophy on raising yes or yes?
Speaker 1: Is that a source of disagreement between you and you
Speaker 1: a massive, well all over objection. Yes, it was a
Speaker 1: massive disagreement. Despite disagreeing on how to raise their children,
Speaker 1: both Jake and George agreed on one thing that was
Speaker 1: at their mother, Angela Wagner, should have custody of their
Speaker 1: kids should anything happen to them. George said he remembers
Speaker 1: signing the back dated custody documents that Angela prepared. He
Speaker 1: also claims he did so without looking at them. I
Speaker 1: came home one day and I was going to my room,
Speaker 1: changed clothes and go back out to the door, and
Speaker 1: my mom said that she was filling one out for
Speaker 1: my brother and asked if I wanted one that was
Speaker 1: more legit than the handwritten when I had, And I
Speaker 1: told her if she wanted it, she had like ten
Speaker 1: minutes to get it, and I had to get and
Speaker 1: I signed my name and walked down. Okay, break that
Speaker 1: down a little bit, right, Do you remember putting that
Speaker 1: hook sometime early twenty sixteen. All right, and the document
Speaker 1: that you signed, had it been completed? Was it blink?
Speaker 1: What did you know about it? Was just like a
Speaker 1: printed out for him? Did you read it? No? I
Speaker 1: just signed my name to it. And what did you
Speaker 1: do after you sign your name? I walked out the
Speaker 1: front door and left again. And what was your understanding
Speaker 1: of this document? You wouldn't you just signed? You were
Speaker 1: coming at it out and change. I just assumed she
Speaker 1: was making another one that was more legitimate looking than
Speaker 1: my handwritten one. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. So the defense
Speaker 1: has been trying to show George as a caring, attentive,
Speaker 1: smart with it person and father. But the whole explanation
Speaker 1: that he just signed these customer documents on a whim
Speaker 1: to me undercuts the caring, an attentive father image. It
Speaker 1: reinforces the idea that he actually didn't really care, that
Speaker 1: he would just sign something without thinking about it or
Speaker 1: putting any thought into it. His a defense attorney attempts
Speaker 1: to explain the decision, but I think the whole thing
Speaker 1: undercuts what the defense has been trying to do, which
Speaker 1: is a completely fair point. I would say in the
Speaker 1: totality of what he's been saying in his testimony so far,
Speaker 1: they're trying to make him stand alone and stand apart
Speaker 1: from his other family members. It also shows that he
Speaker 1: was pretty conditioned to do whatever his mother said. Kind
Speaker 1: Of my takeaway from what the story is they're telling
Speaker 1: is that George kind of got accustomed to dealing with
Speaker 1: his mother and that his family was always doing some
Speaker 1: kind of a scam or a con and that he
Speaker 1: just looked the other ways or threw his hands up
Speaker 1: and didn't really think much of it. Well, the defense
Speaker 1: can't have it both ways. They can't say on the
Speaker 1: one hand that he is carrying a ton to father
Speaker 1: who thinks everything through and it is independent of his family,
Speaker 1: but then also just signs a document because his mom
Speaker 1: tells him to and he trusts her. Those are conflicting
Speaker 1: ideas that I think the jury will see through. I
Speaker 1: testified the day before that he had wanted to distance
Speaker 1: himself from his family's criminal activities. George admitted to chopping
Speaker 1: up cars for insurance money. Did you ever make money
Speaker 1: other than driving trucks multiple different ways? Did you ever
Speaker 1: cut up trucks? Yes? Explain that my grandfather, my mom's father,
Speaker 1: would have people come by that would have a diesel
Speaker 1: Dodge truck or a diesel chavier or whatever contruct really
Speaker 1: but it. They would owe on the truck and they
Speaker 1: would want out from under it. So I'd give them
Speaker 1: five hundred to two thousand dollars and they'd give me
Speaker 1: the truck and give me a week to chop with
Speaker 1: up and sell it. And then they reported stolen and
Speaker 1: turned in on the insurance company. And so explain how
Speaker 1: that works as far as trapping up, and so you
Speaker 1: just take it apart, piece by piece, and then you
Speaker 1: sell a part different parts of different people. And you
Speaker 1: did that when you live Don Jeters. Yes, you know
Speaker 1: approximately how many trucks. Believe five later, defense attorney John
Speaker 1: Parker pivoted to address the damaging BCI recordings. George Wagner
Speaker 1: tried to counter the prosecution's descriptions of some of the
Speaker 1: most incriminating comments. Thinking back on these recordings that we
Speaker 1: listened to, do you remember saying on the recordings anything
Speaker 1: about your mother and whether she should get an attorney
Speaker 1: or not. Do you remember any of that? Yes, The
Speaker 1: conversations that I believe you're talking about is that if
Speaker 1: all of us were arrested, that my mother should get
Speaker 1: the best one. And did you say that? Yes? Why
Speaker 1: did you say that? Because my mom's the one that
Speaker 1: watched the kids five days a week while we were
Speaker 1: going anyway. They were used to being with her for
Speaker 1: five days a week, and I feared it would be
Speaker 1: easier on the children. What were you thinking? I was
Speaker 1: just going under what what? Basically? I understood from the
Speaker 1: attorneys that if we got arrested that it could take
Speaker 1: six months, It could take two years to get to
Speaker 1: a trial and be able to work things out. Do
Speaker 1: you remember on some of the recordings we listened to
Speaker 1: your mother saying something about being framed? Yes, what do
Speaker 1: you My mom and brother has said that since the beginning.
Speaker 1: That's why I believe that we were being framed, because
Speaker 1: they said that they were twisting everything that my mom
Speaker 1: and brother had on their phones and laptops, and they
Speaker 1: were trying to frame us. And was that your mindset
Speaker 1: during these conversations. Yes, After listening to these recordings that
Speaker 1: we heard in court, how do you feel about what
Speaker 1: Jake was saying and what you now know he did?
Speaker 1: I now know that he was just lying through his
Speaker 1: teeth to me. What about your mother? The same? Thanks
Speaker 1: you just lying to me from the beginning. Did you
Speaker 1: ever tell your mother referencing these recordings, did you ever
Speaker 1: tell your mother you would take the blame for these murders? No?
Speaker 1: I did not. So George has testified that he didn't
Speaker 1: trust his mother. We know this. He also didn't trust
Speaker 1: his brother, and he knew he was being raised frankly
Speaker 1: by career criminals, and in his opinion, his brother was
Speaker 1: very selfish and manipulative. And at this point, whether this
Speaker 1: is before the murders or even after the murders, George
Speaker 1: was supposed to be on the straight and narrow. George
Speaker 1: likes to claim that he knew the whole time his
Speaker 1: family were liars and criminals and did not trust them. Yet,
Speaker 1: according to his narrative, after the murders, he just chooses
Speaker 1: to believe their story about what happened in and around
Speaker 1: the road in Massacre. It just doesn't line up about
Speaker 1: the explanation George Gabe earlier. He knows their liars, yet
Speaker 1: accepts their statements about the murders. These are the kinds
Speaker 1: of things that the prosecution is definitely noticing, and they're
Speaker 1: definitely going to bring up a cross because they want
Speaker 1: to really highlight them for the jury. Attorney John Parker
Speaker 1: then focused on one of the most potentially damaging recordings.
Speaker 1: In it, George Wagner threatened BCA and to get her
Speaker 1: Ryan Schierer. George testified that it was not a real threat,
Speaker 1: but a comment made out of frustration and anger. One
Speaker 1: of the conversations West listened to in both your brother
Speaker 1: and your mother and you were kind of in the background.
Speaker 1: Your mother said something about their framing us. You remember that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that she would take the death. Yeah, you remember that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at that time, did you know your mom and brother
Speaker 1: were involved in these murders or committed the murders. No,
Speaker 1: I think it was in that same conversation, Jake says
Speaker 1: he will get out one way or another. Do you
Speaker 1: remember that, Yeah, at that time, did you know he
Speaker 1: had killed these people? No? I was on the assumption
Speaker 1: that he was referring to if he got framed and
Speaker 1: was wrongfully convicted. And then your voice is in the
Speaker 1: background and you say it ain't gonna have the electric
Speaker 1: chair or words to that. Yeah, you remember that. What
Speaker 1: did you mean by that? I just get irritated when
Speaker 1: people were messing with my family and stuff, especially when
Speaker 1: I'm out for five days with no sleep and a
Speaker 1: massive amounts of caffeine and makes your irritable. Did you
Speaker 1: know at that point that your mom and brother were
Speaker 1: actually guilty than even are you guilty of any of
Speaker 1: these events? No? On that same recording or conversation, remember
Speaker 1: hearing your boys say I want to kill Ryan? Yes,
Speaker 1: I said that. What did you mean by that? Explain context?
Speaker 1: It was more of line like when you were angry somebody,
Speaker 1: you say stupid stuff like that, don't mean that you
Speaker 1: mean it. I think everybody said that about somebody at
Speaker 1: one point or another. There was another comment you made
Speaker 1: to your brother during one of these full calls about
Speaker 1: you telling people the truth is the reason we're in
Speaker 1: this mess. You remember that? Can you explain it? In
Speaker 1: the beginning, I believe that the finger was pointed at
Speaker 1: my family because my brother pissed off the manlies, which
Speaker 1: he does to almost everybody he's around. We're going to
Speaker 1: take a break. We'll be back in a moment. They
Speaker 1: say history is written by the victors, but you know
Speaker 1: what they've left out a hell of a lot of
Speaker 1: juicy stuff date Abe Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a
Speaker 1: young couple was sitting right next to him when he
Speaker 1: was shot? It haunted the husband so much he later
Speaker 1: murdered his wife. Ah, we all know who invented that, right,
Speaker 1: and we'll think again. Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole
Speaker 1: the idea for the telephone and then claimed it as
Speaker 1: his own. For every pivotal moment in history, there's always
Speaker 1: a backstory, and it's usually way more interesting than the
Speaker 1: big story. From mysterious murders to the baffling sleep schedules
Speaker 1: of yesteryear to the fascinating lives of those just outside
Speaker 1: the limelight, where can uncovered the forgotten pieces of history
Speaker 1: you didn't know you needed to know. Listen to the
Speaker 1: backstory with me Patty Steeles twice a week on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called the
Speaker 1: girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He really wasn't, he shouted into the point she went unconscious.
Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one
Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us
Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to
Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would, and I would say,
Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. I will always hound
Speaker 1: you and haunt you. You can listen to the girlfriends
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. I hope nobody thinks I got this story
Speaker 1: because I slept with the guy. So how does the
Speaker 1: half American, half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans with
Speaker 1: absolutely no journalism experience break the biggest story of the eighties.
Speaker 1: That's what journalista is all about. I'm a woman not
Speaker 1: wearing a brawl curses like a sailor. I got balls
Speaker 1: bigger than any man, and rather used to call me
Speaker 1: his secret weapon. Pablo gave me half a pound of
Speaker 1: cocaine with a wedding. We work hard, but we party
Speaker 1: even harder because you never knew it's the next day's
Speaker 1: battle was going to be the one that killed were
Speaker 1: up in the air, I heard three somethings. I looked
Speaker 1: at one soldier and I said, that's not a good sound.
Speaker 1: Is no? We're going, dad? And I said, what do
Speaker 1: you mean? We're going? Dad? And then we started to go. Dad.
Speaker 1: Listen to Journalista every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. Defense attorney John Parker
Speaker 1: wrapped up his questioning of George Wagner by again asking
Speaker 1: him if he had any involvement in the murders. Did
Speaker 1: you know your family was going to kill these people
Speaker 1: now before it happened? Did you now after it happened?
Speaker 1: Did you Did you ever have any conversations with your
Speaker 1: brother about it? Now? Did you ever talk to your
Speaker 1: mom about it? Now? Your dad? Now, if you had
Speaker 1: known this was going to happen, what would you do?
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how, but I would have stopped
Speaker 1: at one way or another. Did you love him? Yes?
Speaker 1: Did you consider Frankie a good friend? I said to me,
Speaker 1: my best friend? Looking at Wagners of a fifty three
Speaker 1: days one, this is your wedding photo. Right, Yes, you
Speaker 1: have one arm around who Tabby? You have another arm
Speaker 1: around who loves Frankie? Here again, Jeff and Stephanie. We
Speaker 1: knew when we saw the photo from George and Tabitha's
Speaker 1: wedding a couple of years ago that it was influential
Speaker 1: and significant, but singing in court really proves that to
Speaker 1: be true. This was a big moment where both of
Speaker 1: the families got together and it highlights their relationships. We'll
Speaker 1: share it on our social media, but it's a pretty
Speaker 1: astounding photograph and it really paints a picture of how
Speaker 1: close they were. And everybody in the photograph is either
Speaker 1: dead or accused of their murder. The statement cross Exam
Speaker 1: Here's Lawn Crimes investigative reporter and Jeanette Levy. I was
Speaker 1: actually part of me felt kind of impressed watching him,
Speaker 1: I'm direct, because I felt that he just seemed calm
Speaker 1: and he'd obviously been prepped, that he just seemed to
Speaker 1: have answers for everything, and that that kind of made
Speaker 1: me wonder a little bit because you can't have it,
Speaker 1: you can't always have the answers for everything, but he
Speaker 1: seemed to have an answer for everything. Obviously he's been prepped,
Speaker 1: he's had years to think about this. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, he seemed to be doing a good job
Speaker 1: on the stand. During direct the prosecution focused in on
Speaker 1: George Whiten the force honesty today on the witness stand.
Speaker 1: After hours of questioning by his own attorney, George Wagner
Speaker 1: came under intense scrutiny during the prosecution's cross examination. Prosecutor
Speaker 1: and jaw Kneppa immediately zeroed in on George's claim that
Speaker 1: he and Frankie Rodin had a close relationship. Let's go
Speaker 1: ahead and start with Frankie. You consider him your best friend. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so in two thou and twelve you have your arm
Speaker 1: around Frankie, he's standing next to you at your wedding. Yes,
Speaker 1: And prior to the homicides, when had you ever talked
Speaker 1: to Frankie the last time beforehand? Yes, probably late December,
Speaker 1: late December of twenty fifteen. Yeah, okay, And isn't it
Speaker 1: true that you told us that you didn't even know
Speaker 1: Hannah Hazel. I have met her one time in my life,
Speaker 1: but at the border when you were interviewed in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 1: you said you had never met her. That the last
Speaker 1: person you knew Frankie to be seen was some girl
Speaker 1: named Angel, and that was before you got married in
Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve. Angel was before Chelsea. You indicated
Speaker 1: at the border that the last person you knew Frankie
Speaker 1: to be seen was some girl named Angel, and that
Speaker 1: was when you still had your pulling chuck, which was
Speaker 1: before you got married. Not that I remember. I could
Speaker 1: be wrong that, but not that I remember, Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: George Wagner admitted that he hadn't seen Frankie Rodin in
Speaker 1: months and had never met Frankie's son. He explained that
Speaker 1: he didn't have as much time for friends when he
Speaker 1: began long hall driving, also after his own son was born. However,
Speaker 1: the prosecution presented an alternative theory. So you'd never met
Speaker 1: Hannah Hazel. Usually a woman's pregnant for nine months and
Speaker 1: Ruger was six months at the time of birth. That's
Speaker 1: at least fifteen months where you didn't know Hannah Hazel,
Speaker 1: never met her. Never matter, but Frankie was your best friend. Yes,
Speaker 1: who I consider my best friend? Who you block on Facebook?
Speaker 1: Who I did not blok on Facebook? Well, he was
Speaker 1: blocked on your Facebook. It might be, but it didn't
Speaker 1: happen for me, okay. And you did not have any
Speaker 1: Facebook conversations with Frankie either, did you? Not very many
Speaker 1: that I remember as in zero n remember okay, And
Speaker 1: you can up a question. George's a relationship with the
Speaker 1: mother of Frankie Rodin's oldest child, who had justified earlier
Speaker 1: in the child she alleged that there was bad blood
Speaker 1: between George and Frankie. You remember Chelsea testifying, yes, okay.
Speaker 1: Is it true that you reached out to her at
Speaker 1: some point at one point in time by me and
Speaker 1: Chelsea started talking, yes, okay. And Frankie found out about that, Yes,
Speaker 1: and he was upset in the beginning, yes to explained
Speaker 1: that there was nothing more than friends. Okay. So then
Speaker 1: Chelsea's lying when she said that that put a You
Speaker 1: guys held a grudge against each other after that and
Speaker 1: your friendship. We did not call the brothers against the
Speaker 1: other after that. Okay. So she's lying. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: she's lying, I'm saying she's mistaken. Okay. But you never
Speaker 1: met Hannah Hazel and didn't know her name. You also
Speaker 1: indicated Frankie was a fighter, Yes, that you've seen videos
Speaker 1: of him fighting. Yes, and that you would have to
Speaker 1: go through Frankie to get to anyone in the family
Speaker 1: more unlikely. Yeah, I mean that's what you said. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: I don't see Frankie letting anybody mess with his family. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or Kenneth right, I don't see anybody in their family
Speaker 1: letting anybody mess with their family. And Jacanappa also attacks
Speaker 1: George Wagner's claims that he hated his own family and
Speaker 1: wanted to escape them. She does this by referencing a
Speaker 1: conversation George had in twenty eighteen with his new girlfriend Josie,
Speaker 1: and I guess you tried, or at least it seemed
Speaker 1: yesterday that you were talking about Jake as if you
Speaker 1: hardly even liked him at which point in time, any
Speaker 1: point in time from early childhood, it wasn't that bad
Speaker 1: with him because we were just little kids. But the
Speaker 1: older we got, the worst he got, Okay, And at
Speaker 1: the last point I might get ten good days out
Speaker 1: of a hundred with him. Maybe Okay, But you just
Speaker 1: saw that text message in twenty and eighteen to Josie. Yes,
Speaker 1: where you're saying I'm really close with my family, you're
Speaker 1: kind of warning her or making sure that she's okay
Speaker 1: with that, because you were contemplating having her come to
Speaker 1: live with you, right the house I was staying in there.
Speaker 1: Say it again now that the household staying in there.
Speaker 1: But you wanted her to come live with you. I
Speaker 1: wanted her to move down here eventually, because that's what
Speaker 1: she was talking about. But I wasn't going to let
Speaker 1: her move in the house with my mother. Okay, you
Speaker 1: didn't want her in the house with your mother, correct,
Speaker 1: So in July of twenty eighteen, when you were talking
Speaker 1: to your mother on the phone, when you said that
Speaker 1: you wanted your own little farm somewhere out west where
Speaker 1: I can still make a living and where me and
Speaker 1: Jake can live peacefully with you and the kids and
Speaker 1: whoever else we decide to bring, so we can have
Speaker 1: a nice, peaceful life without all of that craft and
Speaker 1: the drama from everyone. Am I allowed to explain this?
Speaker 1: Did you say that? Yes? I said that, Okay, allowed
Speaker 1: to go into details this. Sure, it doesn't mean live
Speaker 1: in the same house. It means by a bigger farm,
Speaker 1: and he has a house on one corner. She has
Speaker 1: a house on one corner, and I've got a house
Speaker 1: on corner. Okay, kind of like what you guys were
Speaker 1: considering doing when you moved to Missouri. Right. In a
Speaker 1: further effort to discredit George Wagner's testimony, the prosecution brought
Speaker 1: out transcripts of his interview with BCI agents at the
Speaker 1: Montana border in twenty seventeen and challenged him on the
Speaker 1: discrepancy between what he said then and what he was
Speaker 1: saying now on the witness stand. I know you talked
Speaker 1: about your mother and you said, well, you describe her
Speaker 1: to me, she is thanks, you'd better and everybody thanks.
Speaker 1: Everything has to be done her way. I would probably
Speaker 1: say that I could put selfish in that manipulative. And again,
Speaker 1: I mean, this is new and different than what you
Speaker 1: told us at the border. Right. That's not what you
Speaker 1: said about your mother at the border. Right. Don't remember
Speaker 1: what I said at the border? Okay, Well, you weren't
Speaker 1: asked if your mom was controlling. I bet your mom
Speaker 1: is so controlling that she probably even organized the whole thing.
Speaker 1: And you said, my mom is not controlling. You were
Speaker 1: asked your mom's not controlling? You said no at all.
Speaker 1: Do you remember saying that? Don't remember saying that? Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: is that true that she's not controlling? Correct? As a
Speaker 1: before my tenth birthday, she wasn't so bad that I
Speaker 1: can remember, but she got worse as the years went by. Okay.
Speaker 1: So in twenty seventeen, when you were asked that question
Speaker 1: and you said she's not controlling, she trying to do
Speaker 1: or not as far as actually controlling me, No, she didn't, okay,
Speaker 1: but she tried to control me. If that answers your question, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to figure out what the truth is,
Speaker 1: considering you said one thing at the border and you
Speaker 1: said an entirely different thing yesterday today. So, despite testifying
Speaker 1: that his mother was manipulative and selfish, George tried to
Speaker 1: explain why you was willing to sign away custody of
Speaker 1: a son. You talked about these custody documents that you
Speaker 1: and your brother signed and your mother forged the signature
Speaker 1: for hannah on correct, all in the same magical day. Correct.
Speaker 1: You obviously heard the testimony that had happened at the
Speaker 1: kitchen table in your house. It was in the kitchen.
Speaker 1: In the kitchen, okay, so you agree with that. I agree.
Speaker 1: I signed my name to mine in the kitchen and left. Okay,
Speaker 1: and you in the kittyd you just signed that. Yes,
Speaker 1: so you trust your mother. I trust my mother. There's
Speaker 1: some parts of her I don't trust. Okay, but you
Speaker 1: signed this document saying if you were to be killed
Speaker 1: or something happened to you, she would get your child.
Speaker 1: Who else would I lead him too? I have no
Speaker 1: one else to leading to. Yeah, but it was dated
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, and that's not when you signed those documents.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what date was on it. I signed
Speaker 1: it early sixteen. You signed it in April sometimes sixteen.
Speaker 1: I don't know the exact date. Yeah, well, obviously sometime
Speaker 1: after April third or twenty and sixteen, because that was
Speaker 1: when it was printed off the computer. Could be. I
Speaker 1: don't know the exact date. I just know it was
Speaker 1: sixteen minutes. I didn't pay much attention to another ste
Speaker 1: and you have my signature. And Jockneppa then showed George
Speaker 1: Wagner the custody documents that he signed. She once again
Speaker 1: pressed George and why he signed them without paying attention.
Speaker 1: You could look at that. It's the document that signed.
Speaker 1: So that is your signature, yeah, okay, And you see
Speaker 1: the date at the bottom there. Yes, And it's that
Speaker 1: consistent with your experience as far as your computer spinning
Speaker 1: out the date something is printed off the computer. I
Speaker 1: couldn't tell you on that. I don't computers that much.
Speaker 1: But this is dated March eleventh, twenty fifteen. Yes, and
Speaker 1: it clearly was not signed in March eleventh, twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1: I signed it today. It was printed off. So I
Speaker 1: mean you realize it's forgery to back date a document, right, yes, okay,
Speaker 1: And it's forgery to sign somebody else's name to a document. Yes,
Speaker 1: I can see that, Okay, I just don't see how
Speaker 1: me signing my name is forgery. Well, it was back dated.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that the page was, from my understanding blank,
Speaker 1: from what I can remember, when I signed my name.
Speaker 1: She just signed your name to a completely blank document,
Speaker 1: to a custody document, she said, signed my name. I
Speaker 1: signed it and walked out. But you wanted to leave
Speaker 1: your child with your mother if something was ever to
Speaker 1: happened to me, Yes, I had no one else. There
Speaker 1: was no one else to leave it to him. Again,
Speaker 1: you had lots of conversations about concerns about the handwriting
Speaker 1: that was going to be taken because it's something to
Speaker 1: a law enforcement and I was raised at law from
Speaker 1: was crooking, tries to twist everything. Well, you were raised
Speaker 1: to commit a lot of crimes. I was not that
Speaker 1: it was right, but that's how I was raised. It
Speaker 1: took me a long time to realize that it was wrong.
Speaker 1: And when did you realize that? When I realized that
Speaker 1: my dad was wrong and it was actually hurting people,
Speaker 1: So that particular crime you realized was actually hurting people, right,
Speaker 1: the stealing of stuff out of traitors, Yes, but you
Speaker 1: didn't swear off a life of crime just that particular
Speaker 1: when you realize they're actually were victims with the stealing
Speaker 1: fuel and lows. I quit in late fourteen. I believe
Speaker 1: the last thing I can remember doing, aside from deer hunting,
Speaker 1: that was b considered illegal was the dirtmax being racked
Speaker 1: and asked after that it was just deer hunting. Despite
Speaker 1: this claim of changing his ways and leaving his life
Speaker 1: of crime behind him, and you canepa question George Wagner
Speaker 1: about the illegal activities he continued to engage in, including
Speaker 1: using a fake address to get his trucking license. So
Speaker 1: it's an application for a driver's license, correct? Yes, okay.
Speaker 1: And what address did you put down there? Okay, that's
Speaker 1: not where you were living. No, it's my grandmother's form,
Speaker 1: but I remember, correct, it has something to do with
Speaker 1: or Now that's why use an address. Well, you're providing
Speaker 1: false information to a state agency, correct, Yes, Prosecutor and
Speaker 1: Jakin Epa then showed George Wagner a series of gun
Speaker 1: receipts and purchase forms. So you know that you have
Speaker 1: to put accurate information on those forms, correct, Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a federal offense not to But you're purchasing a firearm, right, Okay,
Speaker 1: So if you could go ahead and look at it
Speaker 1: and tell us what address you put down there, it's
Speaker 1: eight four or five Bethel Whigred Okay, but that's not reloked.
Speaker 1: Not At the time. My license had nic expired, and
Speaker 1: when I bought my firearms, I was advised just to
Speaker 1: use what was on the driver's license I had and
Speaker 1: taken time to change it. Actually, that's not permitted. That's
Speaker 1: what I was advised five people I bought them from.
Speaker 1: They said to put the addresses on my license. You
Speaker 1: understand that making any false, oral or written statement, or
Speaker 1: exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this
Speaker 1: transaction as a crime punishable as a felony under federal law. Yes,
Speaker 1: but at least three at least these three fours, you
Speaker 1: did not provide accurate information correct as far as the
Speaker 1: driver's license address them. After George Wagner admitts lying on
Speaker 1: government firearm forms, Kneppa moved to point out other key
Speaker 1: discrepancies in George Wagner's testimony, particularly around when he went
Speaker 1: to bed the night of the murders. Prosecutors say. In
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, Wagner told investigators that he'd gone to bed
Speaker 1: at twelve thirty am on the night of the murders
Speaker 1: after watching a movie with his family. However, in his
Speaker 1: testimony today, he claimed it was around ten pm. You
Speaker 1: said that the night of the homicides you went to
Speaker 1: bed at ten o'clock. Ten issues, if I remember correctly.
Speaker 1: It's been a long time, okay, all right, And so
Speaker 1: do you recall again being interviewed at the border and
Speaker 1: saying that the four of you, well the six of you,
Speaker 1: actually your mom, your dad, your brother, yourself, we're watching
Speaker 1: a movie and you were up until you didn't go
Speaker 1: to bed till twelve thirty. I don't remember what time
Speaker 1: it was. Okay. Do you remember telling the border at
Speaker 1: the border, the agents when they asked you about what
Speaker 1: you did that night, you saying that your mom had
Speaker 1: fixed cheeseburgers for you and how delicious they were, and
Speaker 1: she makes the best and maybe one day she could
Speaker 1: make them for them. I don't remember that now. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying I didn't say. I just said I don't remember. Okay.
Speaker 1: You indicated that you watched a fairy movie. Don't remember
Speaker 1: what movie that wanted to watch. I just I remember
Speaker 1: watching the movie of the kids at this point, I
Speaker 1: don't remember what it was. It's been a long time.
Speaker 1: And you indicated that that is when your son would
Speaker 1: usually go to sleep as well. My son usually went
Speaker 1: to sleep ten to eleven usually. Okay, there's what I
Speaker 1: can remember. Is there a reason that you would lie
Speaker 1: to the people at the border. I'm not saying I did.
Speaker 1: I'm saying I don't remember what times like told him that. Okay,
Speaker 1: I mean it may have been. I just from my
Speaker 1: memory now, I remember going to bed around tennish. I
Speaker 1: could be wrong about that, but that's what I remember. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: because now we know that Chris Senior and Gary were
Speaker 1: being killed at eleven PM, right, I don't know that.
Speaker 1: You don't know that. Previously, Jake Wagner testified that George
Speaker 1: participated in the murders. However, Jake said that George did
Speaker 1: not fire any shots. You don't know that. That's when
Speaker 1: your dad had Chris called his phone and you saw
Speaker 1: the phone calls. Correct, I'm saying I wasn't there. I
Speaker 1: don't know when Chris had died. Right, Okay, you know
Speaker 1: that's what Jake said. I know my brother's time is
Speaker 1: off on everything that's been showed in here. So now
Speaker 1: we know, at least according to Jake, that Chris Senior
Speaker 1: and Gary were killed at eleven o'clock. Right. I think
Speaker 1: that's what he said, which makes your story at the
Speaker 1: border impossible. Right Again, I don't remember exactly everything I
Speaker 1: said at the border. Well, it's when you were trying
Speaker 1: your best to tell the truth when you were interviewed
Speaker 1: at the border, correct to my knowledge of what I remembered. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm not interested as much as what you said, as
Speaker 1: much as do you agree that it would be more
Speaker 1: accurate back then. I can't agree yes or no, because
Speaker 1: I just don't know you agree that you were trying
Speaker 1: to be honest with the agents. Certainly weren't trying to
Speaker 1: lie to them. Yes, I agree on that you weren't
Speaker 1: trying to provide a cover story for you and your
Speaker 1: brother and your father and your mother. Right, So this
Speaker 1: whole idea that we're going to coordinate our response and
Speaker 1: say that we were all together a family night movie
Speaker 1: night watching, watching a video. Surely you didn't just make
Speaker 1: this up when you tour no people at the border.
Speaker 1: It just happened to be the same story that you
Speaker 1: guys had agreed in advance to tell. There was no
Speaker 1: agreement in advance. My dad came down, my kid didn't
Speaker 1: want to leave. So your story today or yesterday is
Speaker 1: that you actually went to bed at ten from well,
Speaker 1: I remember at this point in time, I believe it
Speaker 1: was Tannish Okay. So how could Jake and your father
Speaker 1: have been up on the hill killing Chris Senior and
Speaker 1: Gary less than an hour after you went into your bedroom.
Speaker 1: I can't answer that. I don't know. Here's James Pilcher,
Speaker 1: longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now at Local twelve. When
Speaker 1: George Wagner testified that he went to bed At ten o'clock,
Speaker 1: the two special prosecutors at Angela Kinnepa and Andy Wilson,
Speaker 1: looked at each other almost like pointed at each other like, haha,
Speaker 1: we have not heard what George had to tell Ohio
Speaker 1: Bci when they stopped the family at the Montana border
Speaker 1: on their way back from Alaska in May June twenty seventeen.
Speaker 1: They have not played a lot of that. They have
Speaker 1: not played any of that. They played some of jakes,
Speaker 1: they played Angela's, but they've not played any of George's.
Speaker 1: And I think there was a strategic reason behind that,
Speaker 1: because they might have expected that George was going to
Speaker 1: testify for himself and they did not want him to
Speaker 1: hear what he had to say back then, so we
Speaker 1: could they could catch him in a contradiction, and they
Speaker 1: did and it was a big one. So they spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time and they hammered Angela Kneppa. If
Speaker 1: you listen to Achieve hammers a moment. And I think
Speaker 1: if I'm sending there as a juror, if they paid
Speaker 1: his closest attention to this trial as I have, that's
Speaker 1: that's a red flag. The prosecution also hammer George Wagner
Speaker 1: on other red flags as well. This included denying any
Speaker 1: knowledge that Jake owned a Walter called twenty two pistol.
Speaker 1: Have you ever owned a nineteen eleven twenty two? No,
Speaker 1: has your brother ever owned one? To my knowledge? You know,
Speaker 1: so his testimony that he had this for more than
Speaker 1: a year, you were unaware of that. If he's owned
Speaker 1: it that long, I didn't know about it. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: obviously there's a picture of him holding that weapon in
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. Now I see even the pictures. Is the vaccine?
Speaker 1: I didn't think that we should hit it from you?
Speaker 1: What is it? He hit it from you? If he's
Speaker 1: had it that long, he must have got a curiosity.
Speaker 1: Why would he do that? Because you guys keep those
Speaker 1: your guns in your right. According to my brother's statement,
Speaker 1: he said that he owned every one of them guns
Speaker 1: on that list, and I've not seen over half of
Speaker 1: what's under his name. You fail to answer the question.
Speaker 1: You guys keep your guns and you're safe, correct most
Speaker 1: of them. So you're saying he owns guns you don't
Speaker 1: know of. I'm saying it's possible I've owned hundreds. Again,
Speaker 1: for over a year, he owned a gun and you
Speaker 1: were oblivious to it. It's very well possible here again
Speaker 1: journalist James Pilcher. George has said he never saw and
Speaker 1: has never seen the nineteen eleven Walter Colt twenty two
Speaker 1: caliber that was used in the murders, even though aging
Speaker 1: Scheider texted them a picture of Jake holding it that
Speaker 1: they got off a Jake's phone, say, you've never seen
Speaker 1: that gun before. Ever. He bought that handgun at a
Speaker 1: gun shilling Columbus a couple of years before the murders
Speaker 1: at the end of January, on the same day that
Speaker 1: George bought a different gun at the same gun show.
Speaker 1: They have the paperwork showing that they didn't buy their
Speaker 1: guns at the same vendor. So George was like, I
Speaker 1: didn't even know, really know Jake was there, so that
Speaker 1: if I'm a juror, I'm thinking, wait a minute, you
Speaker 1: mean to sell the YouTube. Boys went up there separately
Speaker 1: to the same gun show and bought guns on the
Speaker 1: same day and didn't know each other was there while
Speaker 1: your father's there. It was a small but key moment
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. During one of his
Speaker 1: conversations with Jake after the murders, George was recorded by
Speaker 1: BCI agents complaining that Jake could not tell lie all
Speaker 1: this with George insisting that Jake destroy evidence. And you
Speaker 1: actually talk about that with Jake again, about how my
Speaker 1: whole wife, I've been in trouble with you because of
Speaker 1: you telling everything and telling honesty. Yes, And everybody says,
Speaker 1: my anger mouth is going to get us in trouble,
Speaker 1: But it's always been your honesty that gets us in trouble. Correct.
Speaker 1: And you say, children, you have to tell on yourself, children,
Speaker 1: you have to tell on me. Yeah, as we're children.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm referring to his as when we're children.
Speaker 1: And you also tell him that he should have gotten
Speaker 1: rid of the phone and he should have smashed the laptop. Correct, Yes,
Speaker 1: and again that's because we got a lot of evidence
Speaker 1: from those items. My understanding of it was that he
Speaker 1: kept saying, you guys were twisting stuff that you found
Speaker 1: on it to try and frame him. Let's stop here
Speaker 1: for another break. Oh, I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting
Speaker 1: a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen
Speaker 1: nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the
Speaker 1: most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages,
Speaker 1: he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He
Speaker 1: was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't.
Speaker 1: He shouted into the point that she went unconscious. Bob
Speaker 1: could lie about anything, but only takes the one time
Speaker 1: when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends
Speaker 1: know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay
Speaker 1: for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to
Speaker 1: the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. They say history is written
Speaker 1: by the victors, but you know what they've left out
Speaker 1: a hell of a lot of juicy stuff. Take Abe
Speaker 1: Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a young couple was sitting
Speaker 1: right next to him when he was shot? It haunted
Speaker 1: the husband so much he later murdered his wife. Ah,
Speaker 1: we all know who invented that, right, and we'll think again.
Speaker 1: Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole the idea for the telephone,
Speaker 1: and then claimed it as his own. For every pivotal
Speaker 1: moment in history, there's always a backstory, and it's usually
Speaker 1: way more interesting than the big story. From mysterious murders
Speaker 1: to the baffling sleep schedules of yesteryear to the fascinating
Speaker 1: lives of those just outside the limelight. Where going to
Speaker 1: uncover the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know you
Speaker 1: need it to know. Listen to the Backstory with me
Speaker 1: Patty Steele, twice a week on the iHeartRadio app, Apple
Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, mappam
Speaker 1: babble here, host of Revisionist History, a show about the
Speaker 1: overlooked and the misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else.
Speaker 1: Like our ongoing obsessive campaign to blow up the world's
Speaker 1: most focused college ranking system, why not just throw in
Speaker 1: a few extra zeros or witness me after years of
Speaker 1: fancy public speaking, learning that I kind of have to
Speaker 1: start over. The tone that you had throughout the debate
Speaker 1: was very similar to some of the students that I
Speaker 1: do work with, and that's what I teach them not
Speaker 1: to do. We're making more revisionist history for you this
Speaker 1: year than ever from places all across this great country,
Speaker 1: emergency rooms, huge theaters, small towns and shooting rangeous and
Speaker 1: you want to put your thumb up there, You're gonna
Speaker 1: pull the trigger with this finger here. Okay, listen to
Speaker 1: revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Nearing the end of her cross examination,
Speaker 1: Prosecutor Andrew Kinnepa brought up George's long history of calling
Speaker 1: female family members derogatory names. This included one incident where
Speaker 1: George complained about Jake's four year old daughter. This is
Speaker 1: the call where you said she can't keep her nose
Speaker 1: out of somebody else's life. She being yes, and Jake says, George,
Speaker 1: she's four years old. You said she does anything, delivered
Speaker 1: you to try it and crush him deliberately. Bitch got
Speaker 1: to ruin everything. You referred to your niece, You're four
Speaker 1: year niece as a bitch because she was ying information.
Speaker 1: What I would explain this before five to six days
Speaker 1: with no sleep in caffeine, you say stuff you don't
Speaker 1: really mean. Yeah, you said a lot of things. Makes
Speaker 1: you irritable. Sure, and she went around telling my son
Speaker 1: that she had a new mom, and he didn't. You
Speaker 1: called her bitch. You remember calling your grandmother Frederica a
Speaker 1: crazy horror. I don't remember that. You don't remember telling
Speaker 1: your mom to calm that crazy hor down. I don't
Speaker 1: remember that conversation. Am I saying? It's possible? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: probably said something like that. I've said a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff on my being upset that I really didn't mean.
Speaker 1: But I've said it because I've been days without sleeping,
Speaker 1: massive amounts of caffeine. Sure, And I mean you called
Speaker 1: Randa I think of lazy crack hor I think I've
Speaker 1: called her that more than once. Okay. And you told
Speaker 1: the agents at the order that you thought that Hannah
Speaker 1: turned into a hor from what everybody else was saying. Okay,
Speaker 1: And that was after she had left Jake. What everybody
Speaker 1: else was saying after she left Jake. To my understanding,
Speaker 1: I don't think she ever really did, but that's what
Speaker 1: everybody else was say. Okay. And you called certainly called
Speaker 1: Tabby a whore many times, and referred to bat Ban
Speaker 1: as a whore just like Tabby many times. Here again,
Speaker 1: and sette Levy, he's calling his niece. You know, I
Speaker 1: think he called his niece a bitch. He called his
Speaker 1: sister in law horror. I mean, and he attributes that too.
Speaker 1: You know, I drive on the road and I'm up
Speaker 1: a long time, and I eat, you know, drink caffeine,
Speaker 1: and I just think to myself, like I could see that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I've been wound up before and
Speaker 1: ranted and raved and said things. And you know, you
Speaker 1: go off on a tirade, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: in one of my tirades are rants. I've not spoken
Speaker 1: about a four year old child like that. Unable to
Speaker 1: explain the many inconsistencies in his testimony, George Wagner pushed
Speaker 1: back against Anti Kneppa's questions. He insisted, in one of
Speaker 1: the most tense exchanges of the day, that his mother
Speaker 1: and brother are lying, and my mom and brother are
Speaker 1: lying to you. They have been like everybody else, Like
Speaker 1: everybody else's lying, like Tabitha's lying, Chelsea's lying, like everybody's
Speaker 1: talking about Frankie's lying. Everybody is lying except for you.
Speaker 1: I did not say Chelsea's lying. I said, shoot, mistaken right.
Speaker 1: And even though you've not managed to tell us anything
Speaker 1: consistent with what you told the agents at the border
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen. You're the one that's telling the truth.
Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly everything I said at the border.
Speaker 1: That's not the question. The question is what you're saying
Speaker 1: to does today is not consistent with what you've said
Speaker 1: at the border. Yeah. I can't say if you guys
Speaker 1: are not because I don't remember everything sent there. But
Speaker 1: everybody else is lying. I'm saying that my mom and
Speaker 1: Tabby Jake's lying about that night. We're very mistaken, one
Speaker 1: of confusing two different events into one. Angela Caneppa trying
Speaker 1: to trip up George, and he comes across as very calm,
Speaker 1: very prepared, very even keeled. Does it work again, He
Speaker 1: only needs to convince one juror that he is telling
Speaker 1: the truth and that Jake and his mom are lying.
Speaker 1: Canneppa is trying to rattle him, but it just doesn't
Speaker 1: really seem to work. And at the same time, Canneppa
Speaker 1: makes the point for George to be telling the truth,
Speaker 1: a lot of other people need to be lying, which
Speaker 1: is a good point because Jake and Angela were not
Speaker 1: able to corroborate their stories. They have both been in
Speaker 1: separate jails this entire time, with no communication, So the
Speaker 1: fact that their true stories matchup is a pretty good
Speaker 1: indicator that they perhaps they're telling the truth, because George
Speaker 1: could be lying all by himself. But how could those
Speaker 1: two have the same story without communicating first. They may
Speaker 1: have practiced a script to some degree before their arrests.
Speaker 1: They might have been planning for this moment all along.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, Jake Wagner and Angela Wagner
Speaker 1: are both the state's witnesses, so that means they've been
Speaker 1: working with the prosecution and their team to figure out
Speaker 1: what they're going to say on the stand. And in
Speaker 1: conversation with Mike Allen, lawyers have to tread very lately
Speaker 1: about coaching witnesses on what they're going to say, but
Speaker 1: we do know they can prepare them, and prepare them
Speaker 1: they do. They spend hours talking over every single possible detail.
Speaker 1: Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen.
Speaker 1: We heard all this technical stuff for so long, like
Speaker 1: the ballistics and the shoeprint, all these things, but I
Speaker 1: think it ultimately comes down to it's what George said
Speaker 1: versus what Angela and Jake said. Like that is what
Speaker 1: I think the jury probably most weighed. Do you see
Speaker 1: it that same way or yeah, I mean, it would
Speaker 1: come down to credibility from George and Angela. And I
Speaker 1: think the credibility goes with Angela because George any number
Speaker 1: of times just said I don't recall I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I didn't count him up, but there are a lot
Speaker 1: of times that he said that, and I don't recall
Speaker 1: hearing that in Angela or Jake's testimony for that matter.
Speaker 1: It was just pretty straightforward. So I think if you
Speaker 1: didn't have the physical evidence and it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: George against those two, I think they win and George
Speaker 1: doesn't because a lot of things he didn't remember, and
Speaker 1: he contradicted himself on a number of occasions. And also,
Speaker 1: I mean it's Jake and Angela. They have not communicated,
Speaker 1: so it's not like their comparing notes. If their stories lineup,
Speaker 1: is that must be worth a lot more than George
Speaker 1: by himself, no question about it, because they were kept separate.
Speaker 1: There's no way they could get together out in the hallway,
Speaker 1: and they get their stories straight. So yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: that gives them I think another reason why they have
Speaker 1: the greater credibility here. But the prosecution wasn't quite done
Speaker 1: highlighting George Wagner's incriminating comments. You indicated that you wanted
Speaker 1: to kill special Agen Chider. Correct. I said that, Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: Jake didn't threaten him. Jake did not threaten him, not
Speaker 1: to my knowledge. You remember telling your brother that you
Speaker 1: should go to BCI and tell them that he'll rat
Speaker 1: you guys out because he's the biggest rat there is. Yes,
Speaker 1: I remember that, okay? And do you remember also telling
Speaker 1: your mother? Let me tell you something. I love you
Speaker 1: the only reason and I'm sorry you're gonna hate when
Speaker 1: I say this, everything that you and Dad have ever
Speaker 1: gotten in trouble for with them mother frickers. The only
Speaker 1: reason they ever got away with that craft was because
Speaker 1: every time some but he caved, everybody crumbled. I ain't
Speaker 1: caven and I ain't crumbling. Do you remember saying that?
Speaker 1: Don't remember them exact words, but I do remember roughly
Speaker 1: the conversation, okay, And that was played in thanks. So yes, okay?
Speaker 1: And is that true philosophy? You don't and you don't crumble,
Speaker 1: not for what I believe you're trying to say it
Speaker 1: as wow, I don't think timically you're talking about anytime
Speaker 1: they got in trouble with law enforcements because somebody cracked.
Speaker 1: I don't believe you should plead out to something you
Speaker 1: didn't do. After the prosecution ended their cross examination of
Speaker 1: George Wagner, his defense attorney John Parker once again re
Speaker 1: asked him several questions about the murders. George, just a
Speaker 1: few follow up questions. Probably been a long couple of
Speaker 1: days for you, hasn't it? Apparently? George? Did you ever
Speaker 1: see Jake by the nineteen love No? Did you know
Speaker 1: he owned law? No one. Did you go up on
Speaker 1: Union Hill Road and participate in these murders in any way?
Speaker 1: Did you plan these murder No? Did you know they
Speaker 1: were going to have? No? Did you know after the
Speaker 1: murders that they, in fact your family had been involved? No?
Speaker 1: Not until my rubbish proffer. And did you know did
Speaker 1: you ever go out to Left Fork Road where Kim
Speaker 1: was killed? Has anybody paid you anything for your testament?
Speaker 1: Has anybody giving you anything for your testament? Now? Did
Speaker 1: the state offer you a police bargain from your testament? No?
Speaker 1: Are you telling the truth? Yes? Your life is on
Speaker 1: the line. Yes. Are you telling the truth? Yea as
Speaker 1: you answer to God? Yeah? Yes, with one last chance
Speaker 1: to potentially trip up George Wagner prosecutor and Jacanappa asked
Speaker 1: him what happens to him if he admits to killing
Speaker 1: the roadents. What happens to you if you come in
Speaker 1: here and admit that you and your brother and your
Speaker 1: father went up to Union Hill Road that night and
Speaker 1: then out to Left Fork Road that night and slaughtered
Speaker 1: perfectly innocent people who lay asleep in their beds, two
Speaker 1: of them with babies in the bed with them that,
Speaker 1: from all testimony, were actively nursing their infants. What happens
Speaker 1: to you if you come in here on that stand
Speaker 1: and admit to that. Do you want me here and say, well,
Speaker 1: I feel should happen to anybody that would do that?
Speaker 1: I want to know what happens to you if you
Speaker 1: come in here and admit that what should happen to
Speaker 1: anybody is they should have death given to them. And
Speaker 1: the biggest difference you agree between you and your brother
Speaker 1: is that when he does wrong things, he tells about
Speaker 1: it and you don't when we were children. Yes, you
Speaker 1: may step down now since there's no DNA evidence connecting
Speaker 1: George Wagner to any of the crime scenes, jurors will
Speaker 1: have to decide who they believe him or Jake and
Speaker 1: and his mom Angela, who have already said under oath
Speaker 1: that George Wagner was part of the plot to kill
Speaker 1: multiple people. More on that next time. For more information
Speaker 1: on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram
Speaker 1: at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikedon Masker is produced by
Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo
Speaker 1: and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tua.
Speaker 1: Music by Jared Aston. The piked and Masker is a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
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