WEBVTT - George Wagner’s Final Day on the Stand 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.040 you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.440 Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.319 get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but true story 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.080 of George Ramus. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.800 who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:21.440 dramas is the biggest man in the business, but George 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.119 Remus's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:30.200 to betrayal, revenge, and one of the most sensational murder 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:34.679 trials in American history. Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.560 King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:45.280 wherever you get your podcasts. So she's lying. I'm not 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:50.200 saying she lives, says she's mistaken, but everybody else's lying. 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.200 I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lyon about 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.240 that night. Angela Knappa. If you listen to A G. 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.160 Hammers and I think if I'm sitting there as a 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:02.280 juror if they paid as close attention to this trial 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:07.600 as I have, that's a red flag. What happens to 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.880 you if you come in here and admit that you 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:15.799 and your brother and your father slaughtered perfectly innocent people 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:19.440 who lay asleep in their beds. Do you want to 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:21.320 hear answer? Well, I feel we should happen to anybody 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.160 that would do that. I want to know what happens 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:29.400 to you if you come in here and admit that 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:32.440 what should happen to anybody is they should have death 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:41.760 given to them. This is the Pipes and Masker returned 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:48.960 to Pike County season four, episode twenty three, George Wagner's 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:53.560 final day on the stand. M Courtney Armstrong, a television 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.359 producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane. 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:01.480 It's important to note that Orge Wagner the fourth has 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.600 pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:10.520 His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:14.840 pleaded not guilty to all charges after answering more than 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.639 seven hours worth of questions from his own lawyer the 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:23.079 day before, George wagner surprising testimony continues for a second day. 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:28.000 Wagner continued defending himself, denying any involvement in the murders. 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.680 He insisted he took no part in planning or covering 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:35.240 up the brutal murders. But on a second day of testimony, 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.360 George Wagner faced a far more aggressive line of questioning 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:43.920 from prosecutor Auntiwa Kineppa. She questioned his credibility, honesty, and 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:49.480 the multiple inconsistencies from previous statements George Wagner gave to investigators. 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:52.440 George Wagner back on the stand for a second day. 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:54.880 He is on trial for murder in the Pike County 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.240 massacre that happened in twenty sixteen. Wearing a light blue 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:02.400 collared dress shirt, a dark tie, and black vest, George 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.080 Wagner the fourth returned to the stand on the forty 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.800 third day of his child defense attorney John Parker started 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:12.360 the morning by asking George Wagner about his use of Facebook. 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:19.159 Now George use Facebook on and off. Wagner said he 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.480 occasionally used Facebook to buy and sell items like truck 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.799 parts on its marketplace app, and to talk to friends, 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:30.240 including Frankie Rodin. With respect of Facebook, did you ever 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:35.160 know of your mother to use your account? Not to 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:39.240 my knowledge. Did you ever know whether your mother obtained 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:43.760 a password? Not to my knowledge. However, George testified his 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.800 mother was constantly trying to access as social media passwords. 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.839 Did you ever have an issue with your mother trying 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:57.120 to access your fault her? Not really, I'm not gonna 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.760 say accessing, but constantly looking over my shoulder trying to 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.360 get password to it. I changed my password like daily 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.640 because she would try and figure out what my password was. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:07.840 How do you know that she was always looking over 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.279 my shoulder when I put my password in? Is that 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.320 before the murders a quarterback? Is I've had an iPhone? 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:16.360 George also said he was aware of the gofund me 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.520 page his brother Jake created, but also that he had 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.880 nothing to do with it. Defense attorney John Parker then 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.760 shifted the conversation to George's mindset after the murders and 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:30.320 now I viewed the police investigation. After being questioned at 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.839 the Montana border in twenty seventeen, George Wagner said he 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.200 didn't know if his shrug was bugged and his phone 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.479 was tapped, but he said he assumed they were during 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:43.000 that time frame. What was your mindset, so to speak, 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:48.560 about the investigation and whether your family was guilty or 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.400 not guilty? What was your mindset? Though? I believe that 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:53.760 they were just trying to frame my mom and my 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:56.719 brother and my family for the fact that they didn't 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.359 have anybody else to look at. Why did you think that? 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.080 Because I was raised to believe it all law enforcement 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:03.760 was crooked, and I thought they just wanted to close 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:05.640 the case and didn't care about it being right or wrong. 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:09.080 The fear of law enforcement also led George to think 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:13.240 his brother Jake's new wife, Elizabeth, was likely an informant. 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.200 From the way I understood it was that BC I 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.760 would stoop to any level to get information about my family, 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.520 and that they would try and send a woman in 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:24.880 there to get close to me or my brother and 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:30.320 get information. Does that explain some of the conversations we 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.599 heard on the recordings between you and your brother about that. Yes, 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.839 because she didn't know my brother at all and married 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.359 him within like three months, and I just didn't trust that, 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:44.200 not with everything that our family was being accused of. 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:48.919 George also testified he questioned Elizabeth's motives and that he 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:57.000 did not trust her. Why not multiple different reasons. Reason one, 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.159 when she first broke up my brother and then got 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:02.839 back with him, I just thought it was weird that 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.039 somebody who met a complete stranger would want to be 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:07.960 with somebody who was accused of what we were being 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:12.240 accused of. All right, Were there other reason? Yes? The 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.840 second reason was she had come up with a story 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.960 about her childhood that she and her brothers and her 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.360 mother was a part of some cult for some church 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:24.000 in Texas, and I had a guess the church ended 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:26.280 up selling kids the sex slavery or something like that. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.120 All right, was there any other The other one was 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.000 I came home from work one week and my son 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.200 said that Bessett told him that you shoot bad people 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.360 with a or fifteenth. George Wagner said he told his 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.280 family he didn't want Elizabeth living with them after they 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.120 returned to Ohio. I just didn't feel my son was 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.080 safe around her. Did you want to kill her? No? 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:47.520 What did you want? I just wanted her to move 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.480 out of the house. Wanting to drive home the point 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:54.040 that George Wagner was a loving and carrying uncle. Attorney 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.840 John Parker asked George about his nickname for his niece. 0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:59.720 George said that when Jake and Hannah's daughter was a 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:04.160 bag maybe he began to playfully call her SUTs. She 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.200 was playing one day in a bucket full of water 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:08.880 that she was sitting in it was Fiel full of soap, 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.640 and so you gave her the nickname Suggs. Yes. After 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.000 Hannah's death, George said he would regularly talk to Jake 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:20.240 about his daughter. During those conversations, did you know that 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.680 he had killed her. Now, what was his demeanor when 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:27.440 you brought up sucks? Depends on what I was going on, 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:29.400 But usually it turned into a fight in an argument 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.640 about what. Anytime I would save it made a face 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.480 like Hannah, or looked like Hannah, or was acting like Hannah, 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:39.360 he would throw a fit. You loved your son quite obviously, right, Yes? 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:45.120 Did you love sucks? Yes? Did you kill these people 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:51.320 for her? Now? Would you ever do that? Now? Here's 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.960 Jeff and Stephanie. Do you think, steph that this testimony 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.280 humanizess George Wigner and anyway? I mean, look, even if 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.560 it does humanize him, both things can be true. I 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.720 think if we've learned anything just in the process of 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.280 making this podcast and following it for as long as 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:10.320 we have, it's just that certain people can be a 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.240 lot of things at the same time. So on the 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.400 one hand, yes, maybe this does make him seem more compassionate, 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.360 and on the other he's being accused of commiserating to 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:23.280 murder of a people that, according to this compassionate testimony, 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.360 he knew very well. And both things may be true. 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:28.720 This is a good example of the defense adding a 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.280 rational look into George Wagner's thought process. It's very well explained. 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.199 It sounds logical. I mean, he makes pretty rational points 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:39.120 about why Jake's relationship with Elizabeth is odd and it 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:43.160 could raise possible doubts about Elizabeth's judgment, which, as we know, 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.000 is the prosecution's goal to poke holes in the defense's 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.199 story because all they have to do is just term 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:51.880 one juror in favor of George. I would imagine too, 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.480 if in fact, he knew what hot water he and 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.559 his family were in at that time. The idea of 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:02.839 adding a new person just seems nuts. On the one hand, 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.760 it shows that Jake wanted to marry Elizabeth before they 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.200 return to piked In. And on the other side of it, 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.920 why would you add somebody else to the equation that 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:18.440 has to keep your story straight? And if George presents 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:24.239 himself as empathetic and slightly compassionate or is adding context 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:32.960 to the dynamics, one person can decide his fate. Well, 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.680 he loved his niece, George said he and Jake also 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:39.720 fought and disagreed about how to raise their children. Here again, 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.679 defense attorney John Parker speaking with George Wagner the fourth 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.160 did you and your brother have the same ideas on 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:54.520 how to raise your respective children. No can fire a 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:59.400 long shot? Can you explain? And my brother wanted to 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:04.120 basically keep chained up in the house for her entire 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:10.160 life until she graduated higher college. What was your idea 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.440 of how to raise it? My idea of it was, 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.840 I guess you could see a spoiled him. What was 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.400 I didn't never tell him know whatever he wanted, I 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.360 got it for him, and I got a lot of 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:26.239 hell over that. And my main plan was that eventually 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.280 when he was older. All kids are going to be kids, 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:31.079 regardless of what you say or do. They're going to 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.760 make their own mistakes. I've made mine, everybody I knows 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.079 made theirs, and they're going to do it anywhere, whether 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:37.560 you tell them about too or whether you tell them 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.640 to do what, they're going to do it. So my 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.480 way of fixing that was I was just going to 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:45.679 end up building like a great big lake one day 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.360 on whatever piece of property I bought, and have its 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:50.800 own cabin on it from time he turned as teenager, 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:52.520 so when he was out drinking and party in which 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:54.520 he's going to do all kids do it, that he 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:56.720 would be there and I wouldn't worry about running up 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.280 and down the roads instead of him being running everywhere 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:03.040 like I did. Did you discuss this with your brother? Yeah? 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:08.240 Did you discuss Jake's philosophy on raising yes or yes? 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:10.839 Is that a source of disagreement between you and you 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:16.720 a massive, well all over objection. Yes, it was a 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:22.840 massive disagreement. Despite disagreeing on how to raise their children, 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:26.920 both Jake and George agreed on one thing that was 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.120 at their mother, Angela Wagner, should have custody of their 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:36.800 kids should anything happen to them. George said he remembers 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.920 signing the back dated custody documents that Angela prepared. He 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.480 also claims he did so without looking at them. I 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.360 came home one day and I was going to my room, 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.040 changed clothes and go back out to the door, and 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.160 my mom said that she was filling one out for 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.560 my brother and asked if I wanted one that was 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.040 more legit than the handwritten when I had, And I 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:57.719 told her if she wanted it, she had like ten 0:12:57.760 --> 0:12:59.360 minutes to get it, and I had to get and 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.080 I signed my name and walked down. Okay, break that 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.319 down a little bit, right, Do you remember putting that 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:10.240 hook sometime early twenty sixteen. All right, and the document 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.640 that you signed, had it been completed? Was it blink? 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:14.480 What did you know about it? Was just like a 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:17.080 printed out for him? Did you read it? No? I 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:18.960 just signed my name to it. And what did you 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:20.520 do after you sign your name? I walked out the 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.920 front door and left again. And what was your understanding 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.640 of this document? You wouldn't you just signed? You were 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.120 coming at it out and change. I just assumed she 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.600 was making another one that was more legitimate looking than 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:38.960 my handwritten one. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. So the defense 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.960 has been trying to show George as a caring, attentive, 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:47.160 smart with it person and father. But the whole explanation 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.559 that he just signed these customer documents on a whim 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.400 to me undercuts the caring, an attentive father image. It 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.040 reinforces the idea that he actually didn't really care, that 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:58.480 he would just sign something without thinking about it or 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.920 putting any thought into it. His a defense attorney attempts 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.480 to explain the decision, but I think the whole thing 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.400 undercuts what the defense has been trying to do, which 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.360 is a completely fair point. I would say in the 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:14.520 totality of what he's been saying in his testimony so far, 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.600 they're trying to make him stand alone and stand apart 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.960 from his other family members. It also shows that he 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.920 was pretty conditioned to do whatever his mother said. Kind 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.440 Of my takeaway from what the story is they're telling 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.600 is that George kind of got accustomed to dealing with 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:36.520 his mother and that his family was always doing some 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.200 kind of a scam or a con and that he 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:41.600 just looked the other ways or threw his hands up 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.280 and didn't really think much of it. Well, the defense 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:45.960 can't have it both ways. They can't say on the 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.040 one hand that he is carrying a ton to father 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.920 who thinks everything through and it is independent of his family, 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.200 but then also just signs a document because his mom 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.240 tells him to and he trusts her. Those are conflicting 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.080 ideas that I think the jury will see through. I 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.680 testified the day before that he had wanted to distance 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.760 himself from his family's criminal activities. George admitted to chopping 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.240 up cars for insurance money. Did you ever make money 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:15.720 other than driving trucks multiple different ways? Did you ever 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:23.360 cut up trucks? Yes? Explain that my grandfather, my mom's father, 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.320 would have people come by that would have a diesel 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.160 Dodge truck or a diesel chavier or whatever contruct really 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:34.120 but it. They would owe on the truck and they 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:36.320 would want out from under it. So I'd give them 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.720 five hundred to two thousand dollars and they'd give me 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:40.560 the truck and give me a week to chop with 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.520 up and sell it. And then they reported stolen and 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:46.280 turned in on the insurance company. And so explain how 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:48.480 that works as far as trapping up, and so you 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.360 just take it apart, piece by piece, and then you 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:55.320 sell a part different parts of different people. And you 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:57.960 did that when you live Don Jeters. Yes, you know 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:04.120 approximately how many trucks. Believe five later, defense attorney John 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:10.040 Parker pivoted to address the damaging BCI recordings. George Wagner 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:13.640 tried to counter the prosecution's descriptions of some of the 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:17.560 most incriminating comments. Thinking back on these recordings that we 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.760 listened to, do you remember saying on the recordings anything 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:26.160 about your mother and whether she should get an attorney 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:31.440 or not. Do you remember any of that? Yes, The 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.240 conversations that I believe you're talking about is that if 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.200 all of us were arrested, that my mother should get 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.160 the best one. And did you say that? Yes? Why 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.800 did you say that? Because my mom's the one that 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:43.560 watched the kids five days a week while we were 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:45.440 going anyway. They were used to being with her for 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:46.880 five days a week, and I feared it would be 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:52.400 easier on the children. What were you thinking? I was 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:56.960 just going under what what? Basically? I understood from the 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:01.400 attorneys that if we got arrested that it could take 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:03.920 six months, It could take two years to get to 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.879 a trial and be able to work things out. Do 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.600 you remember on some of the recordings we listened to 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:15.119 your mother saying something about being framed? Yes, what do 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:19.280 you My mom and brother has said that since the beginning. 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.480 That's why I believe that we were being framed, because 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:23.560 they said that they were twisting everything that my mom 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:25.880 and brother had on their phones and laptops, and they 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.320 were trying to frame us. And was that your mindset 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:33.760 during these conversations. Yes, After listening to these recordings that 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:38.520 we heard in court, how do you feel about what 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:40.880 Jake was saying and what you now know he did? 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:43.560 I now know that he was just lying through his 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.640 teeth to me. What about your mother? The same? Thanks 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.720 you just lying to me from the beginning. Did you 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:54.400 ever tell your mother referencing these recordings, did you ever 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.879 tell your mother you would take the blame for these murders? No? 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:02.680 I did not. So George has testified that he didn't 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.440 trust his mother. We know this. He also didn't trust 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.399 his brother, and he knew he was being raised frankly 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:12.280 by career criminals, and in his opinion, his brother was 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:15.760 very selfish and manipulative. And at this point, whether this 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.960 is before the murders or even after the murders, George 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.520 was supposed to be on the straight and narrow. George 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:24.000 likes to claim that he knew the whole time his 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.359 family were liars and criminals and did not trust them. Yet, 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:30.240 according to his narrative, after the murders, he just chooses 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.960 to believe their story about what happened in and around 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.560 the road in Massacre. It just doesn't line up about 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.360 the explanation George Gabe earlier. He knows their liars, yet 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:42.480 accepts their statements about the murders. These are the kinds 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.360 of things that the prosecution is definitely noticing, and they're 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:47.640 definitely going to bring up a cross because they want 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:53.399 to really highlight them for the jury. Attorney John Parker 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.920 then focused on one of the most potentially damaging recordings. 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.480 In it, George Wagner threatened BCA and to get her 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.719 Ryan Schierer. George testified that it was not a real threat, 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:09.960 but a comment made out of frustration and anger. One 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:14.560 of the conversations West listened to in both your brother 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.159 and your mother and you were kind of in the background. 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.960 Your mother said something about their framing us. You remember that, Yeah, 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.480 and that she would take the death. Yeah, you remember that. Yeah, 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.000 at that time, did you know your mom and brother 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:31.720 were involved in these murders or committed the murders. No, 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.800 I think it was in that same conversation, Jake says 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:37.560 he will get out one way or another. Do you 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.840 remember that, Yeah, at that time, did you know he 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.920 had killed these people? No? I was on the assumption 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:47.520 that he was referring to if he got framed and 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:51.439 was wrongfully convicted. And then your voice is in the 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:56.600 background and you say it ain't gonna have the electric 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:01.000 chair or words to that. Yeah, you remember that. What 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:06.200 did you mean by that? I just get irritated when 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:09.479 people were messing with my family and stuff, especially when 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:11.720 I'm out for five days with no sleep and a 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:18.600 massive amounts of caffeine and makes your irritable. Did you 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:20.560 know at that point that your mom and brother were 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:24.280 actually guilty than even are you guilty of any of 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:28.600 these events? No? On that same recording or conversation, remember 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.960 hearing your boys say I want to kill Ryan? Yes, 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.000 I said that. What did you mean by that? Explain context? 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.560 It was more of line like when you were angry somebody, 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:40.359 you say stupid stuff like that, don't mean that you 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.960 mean it. I think everybody said that about somebody at 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.600 one point or another. There was another comment you made 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:48.760 to your brother during one of these full calls about 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:52.480 you telling people the truth is the reason we're in 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.840 this mess. You remember that? Can you explain it? In 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.280 the beginning, I believe that the finger was pointed at 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:02.280 my family because my brother pissed off the manlies, which 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:07.760 he does to almost everybody he's around. We're going to 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:13.760 take a break. We'll be back in a moment. They 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.679 say history is written by the victors, but you know 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.080 what they've left out a hell of a lot of 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:24.720 juicy stuff date Abe Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.399 young couple was sitting right next to him when he 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:31.080 was shot? It haunted the husband so much he later 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:35.400 murdered his wife. Ah, we all know who invented that, right, 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:39.600 and we'll think again. Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:42.160 the idea for the telephone and then claimed it as 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:46.399 his own. For every pivotal moment in history, there's always 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.879 a backstory, and it's usually way more interesting than the 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:54.480 big story. From mysterious murders to the baffling sleep schedules 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:58.400 of yesteryear to the fascinating lives of those just outside 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:02.280 the limelight, where can uncovered the forgotten pieces of history 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:05.320 you didn't know you needed to know. Listen to the 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:08.280 backstory with me Patty Steeles twice a week on the 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:14.600 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.639 I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called the 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:21.160 girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:25.840 a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:32.200 He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:36.679 he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't. 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:41.880 He really wasn't, he shouted into the point she went unconscious. 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:46.400 Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:50.440 time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:53.359 girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:56.760 pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:58.560 I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:01.680 I'd spit on him. I would, and I would say, 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:04.760 I know you killed my sister. I will always hound 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:07.640 you and haunt you. You can listen to the girlfriends 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:11.880 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:15.600 your podcasts. I hope nobody thinks I got this story 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:18.119 because I slept with the guy. So how does the 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:21.439 half American, half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans with 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:25.439 absolutely no journalism experience break the biggest story of the eighties. 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:29.639 That's what journalista is all about. I'm a woman not 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:34.399 wearing a brawl curses like a sailor. I got balls 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:37.119 bigger than any man, and rather used to call me 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:40.600