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Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording

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Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters

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Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.

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Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The

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Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season.

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Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and

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Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,

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Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find

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Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt

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Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the

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Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality,

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Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.

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Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know

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Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl

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Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but true story

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Speaker 1: of George Ramus. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer

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Speaker 1: who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition

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Speaker 1: dramas is the biggest man in the business, but George

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Speaker 1: Remus's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading

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Speaker 1: to betrayal, revenge, and one of the most sensational murder

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Speaker 1: trials in American history. Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg

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Speaker 1: King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. So she's lying. I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying she lives, says she's mistaken, but everybody else's lying.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lyon about

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Speaker 1: that night. Angela Knappa. If you listen to A G.

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Speaker 1: Hammers and I think if I'm sitting there as a

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Speaker 1: juror if they paid as close attention to this trial

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Speaker 1: as I have, that's a red flag. What happens to

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Speaker 1: you if you come in here and admit that you

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Speaker 1: and your brother and your father slaughtered perfectly innocent people

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Speaker 1: who lay asleep in their beds. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: hear answer? Well, I feel we should happen to anybody

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Speaker 1: that would do that. I want to know what happens

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Speaker 1: to you if you come in here and admit that

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Speaker 1: what should happen to anybody is they should have death

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Speaker 1: given to them. This is the Pipes and Masker returned

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Speaker 1: to Pike County season four, episode twenty three, George Wagner's

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Speaker 1: final day on the stand. M Courtney Armstrong, a television

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Speaker 1: producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane.

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Speaker 1: It's important to note that Orge Wagner the fourth has

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Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone.

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Speaker 1: His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also

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Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty to all charges after answering more than

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Speaker 1: seven hours worth of questions from his own lawyer the

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Speaker 1: day before, George wagner surprising testimony continues for a second day.

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Speaker 1: Wagner continued defending himself, denying any involvement in the murders.

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Speaker 1: He insisted he took no part in planning or covering

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Speaker 1: up the brutal murders. But on a second day of testimony,

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Speaker 1: George Wagner faced a far more aggressive line of questioning

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Speaker 1: from prosecutor Auntiwa Kineppa. She questioned his credibility, honesty, and

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Speaker 1: the multiple inconsistencies from previous statements George Wagner gave to investigators.

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Speaker 1: George Wagner back on the stand for a second day.

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Speaker 1: He is on trial for murder in the Pike County

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Speaker 1: massacre that happened in twenty sixteen. Wearing a light blue

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Speaker 1: collared dress shirt, a dark tie, and black vest, George

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Speaker 1: Wagner the fourth returned to the stand on the forty

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Speaker 1: third day of his child defense attorney John Parker started

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Speaker 1: the morning by asking George Wagner about his use of Facebook.

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Speaker 1: Now George use Facebook on and off. Wagner said he

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Speaker 1: occasionally used Facebook to buy and sell items like truck

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Speaker 1: parts on its marketplace app, and to talk to friends,

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Speaker 1: including Frankie Rodin. With respect of Facebook, did you ever

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Speaker 1: know of your mother to use your account? Not to

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Speaker 1: my knowledge. Did you ever know whether your mother obtained

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Speaker 1: a password? Not to my knowledge. However, George testified his

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Speaker 1: mother was constantly trying to access as social media passwords.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever have an issue with your mother trying

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Speaker 1: to access your fault her? Not really, I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: say accessing, but constantly looking over my shoulder trying to

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Speaker 1: get password to it. I changed my password like daily

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Speaker 1: because she would try and figure out what my password was.

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Speaker 1: How do you know that she was always looking over

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Speaker 1: my shoulder when I put my password in? Is that

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Speaker 1: before the murders a quarterback? Is I've had an iPhone?

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Speaker 1: George also said he was aware of the gofund me

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Speaker 1: page his brother Jake created, but also that he had

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with it. Defense attorney John Parker then

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Speaker 1: shifted the conversation to George's mindset after the murders and

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Speaker 1: now I viewed the police investigation. After being questioned at

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Speaker 1: the Montana border in twenty seventeen, George Wagner said he

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Speaker 1: didn't know if his shrug was bugged and his phone

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Speaker 1: was tapped, but he said he assumed they were during

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Speaker 1: that time frame. What was your mindset, so to speak,

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Speaker 1: about the investigation and whether your family was guilty or

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Speaker 1: not guilty? What was your mindset? Though? I believe that

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Speaker 1: they were just trying to frame my mom and my

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Speaker 1: brother and my family for the fact that they didn't

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Speaker 1: have anybody else to look at. Why did you think that?

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Speaker 1: Because I was raised to believe it all law enforcement

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Speaker 1: was crooked, and I thought they just wanted to close

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Speaker 1: the case and didn't care about it being right or wrong.

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Speaker 1: The fear of law enforcement also led George to think

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Speaker 1: his brother Jake's new wife, Elizabeth, was likely an informant.

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Speaker 1: From the way I understood it was that BC I

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Speaker 1: would stoop to any level to get information about my family,

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Speaker 1: and that they would try and send a woman in

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Speaker 1: there to get close to me or my brother and

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Speaker 1: get information. Does that explain some of the conversations we

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Speaker 1: heard on the recordings between you and your brother about that. Yes,

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Speaker 1: because she didn't know my brother at all and married

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Speaker 1: him within like three months, and I just didn't trust that,

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Speaker 1: not with everything that our family was being accused of.

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Speaker 1: George also testified he questioned Elizabeth's motives and that he

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Speaker 1: did not trust her. Why not multiple different reasons. Reason one,

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Speaker 1: when she first broke up my brother and then got

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Speaker 1: back with him, I just thought it was weird that

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Speaker 1: somebody who met a complete stranger would want to be

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Speaker 1: with somebody who was accused of what we were being

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Speaker 1: accused of. All right, Were there other reason? Yes? The

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Speaker 1: second reason was she had come up with a story

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Speaker 1: about her childhood that she and her brothers and her

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Speaker 1: mother was a part of some cult for some church

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Speaker 1: in Texas, and I had a guess the church ended

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Speaker 1: up selling kids the sex slavery or something like that.

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Speaker 1: All right, was there any other The other one was

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Speaker 1: I came home from work one week and my son

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Speaker 1: said that Bessett told him that you shoot bad people

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Speaker 1: with a or fifteenth. George Wagner said he told his

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Speaker 1: family he didn't want Elizabeth living with them after they

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Speaker 1: returned to Ohio. I just didn't feel my son was

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Speaker 1: safe around her. Did you want to kill her? No?

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Speaker 1: What did you want? I just wanted her to move

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Speaker 1: out of the house. Wanting to drive home the point

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Speaker 1: that George Wagner was a loving and carrying uncle. Attorney

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Speaker 1: John Parker asked George about his nickname for his niece.

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Speaker 1: George said that when Jake and Hannah's daughter was a

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Speaker 1: bag maybe he began to playfully call her SUTs. She

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Speaker 1: was playing one day in a bucket full of water

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Speaker 1: that she was sitting in it was Fiel full of soap,

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Speaker 1: and so you gave her the nickname Suggs. Yes. After

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Speaker 1: Hannah's death, George said he would regularly talk to Jake

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Speaker 1: about his daughter. During those conversations, did you know that

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Speaker 1: he had killed her. Now, what was his demeanor when

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Speaker 1: you brought up sucks? Depends on what I was going on,

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Speaker 1: But usually it turned into a fight in an argument

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Speaker 1: about what. Anytime I would save it made a face

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Speaker 1: like Hannah, or looked like Hannah, or was acting like Hannah,

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Speaker 1: he would throw a fit. You loved your son quite obviously, right, Yes?

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Speaker 1: Did you love sucks? Yes? Did you kill these people

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Speaker 1: for her? Now? Would you ever do that? Now? Here's

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Speaker 1: Jeff and Stephanie. Do you think, steph that this testimony

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Speaker 1: humanizess George Wigner and anyway? I mean, look, even if

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Speaker 1: it does humanize him, both things can be true. I

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Speaker 1: think if we've learned anything just in the process of

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Speaker 1: making this podcast and following it for as long as

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Speaker 1: we have, it's just that certain people can be a

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Speaker 1: lot of things at the same time. So on the

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Speaker 1: one hand, yes, maybe this does make him seem more compassionate,

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Speaker 1: and on the other he's being accused of commiserating to

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Speaker 1: murder of a people that, according to this compassionate testimony,

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Speaker 1: he knew very well. And both things may be true.

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Speaker 1: This is a good example of the defense adding a

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Speaker 1: rational look into George Wagner's thought process. It's very well explained.

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Speaker 1: It sounds logical. I mean, he makes pretty rational points

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Speaker 1: about why Jake's relationship with Elizabeth is odd and it

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Speaker 1: could raise possible doubts about Elizabeth's judgment, which, as we know,

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Speaker 1: is the prosecution's goal to poke holes in the defense's

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Speaker 1: story because all they have to do is just term

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Speaker 1: one juror in favor of George. I would imagine too,

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Speaker 1: if in fact, he knew what hot water he and

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Speaker 1: his family were in at that time. The idea of

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Speaker 1: adding a new person just seems nuts. On the one hand,

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Speaker 1: it shows that Jake wanted to marry Elizabeth before they

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Speaker 1: return to piked In. And on the other side of it,

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Speaker 1: why would you add somebody else to the equation that

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Speaker 1: has to keep your story straight? And if George presents

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Speaker 1: himself as empathetic and slightly compassionate or is adding context

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Speaker 1: to the dynamics, one person can decide his fate. Well,

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Speaker 1: he loved his niece, George said he and Jake also

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Speaker 1: fought and disagreed about how to raise their children. Here again,

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Speaker 1: defense attorney John Parker speaking with George Wagner the fourth

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Speaker 1: did you and your brother have the same ideas on

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Speaker 1: how to raise your respective children. No can fire a

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Speaker 1: long shot? Can you explain? And my brother wanted to

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Speaker 1: basically keep chained up in the house for her entire

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Speaker 1: life until she graduated higher college. What was your idea

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Speaker 1: of how to raise it? My idea of it was,

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Speaker 1: I guess you could see a spoiled him. What was

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Speaker 1: I didn't never tell him know whatever he wanted, I

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Speaker 1: got it for him, and I got a lot of

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Speaker 1: hell over that. And my main plan was that eventually

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Speaker 1: when he was older. All kids are going to be kids,

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Speaker 1: regardless of what you say or do. They're going to

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Speaker 1: make their own mistakes. I've made mine, everybody I knows

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Speaker 1: made theirs, and they're going to do it anywhere, whether

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Speaker 1: you tell them about too or whether you tell them

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Speaker 1: to do what, they're going to do it. So my

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Speaker 1: way of fixing that was I was just going to

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Speaker 1: end up building like a great big lake one day

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Speaker 1: on whatever piece of property I bought, and have its

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Speaker 1: own cabin on it from time he turned as teenager,

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Speaker 1: so when he was out drinking and party in which

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Speaker 1: he's going to do all kids do it, that he

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Speaker 1: would be there and I wouldn't worry about running up

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Speaker 1: and down the roads instead of him being running everywhere

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Speaker 1: like I did. Did you discuss this with your brother? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Did you discuss Jake's philosophy on raising yes or yes?

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Speaker 1: Is that a source of disagreement between you and you

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Speaker 1: a massive, well all over objection. Yes, it was a

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Speaker 1: massive disagreement. Despite disagreeing on how to raise their children,

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Speaker 1: both Jake and George agreed on one thing that was

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Speaker 1: at their mother, Angela Wagner, should have custody of their

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Speaker 1: kids should anything happen to them. George said he remembers

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Speaker 1: signing the back dated custody documents that Angela prepared. He

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Speaker 1: also claims he did so without looking at them. I

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Speaker 1: came home one day and I was going to my room,

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Speaker 1: changed clothes and go back out to the door, and

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Speaker 1: my mom said that she was filling one out for

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Speaker 1: my brother and asked if I wanted one that was

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Speaker 1: more legit than the handwritten when I had, And I

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Speaker 1: told her if she wanted it, she had like ten

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Speaker 1: minutes to get it, and I had to get and

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Speaker 1: I signed my name and walked down. Okay, break that

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Speaker 1: down a little bit, right, Do you remember putting that

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Speaker 1: hook sometime early twenty sixteen. All right, and the document

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Speaker 1: that you signed, had it been completed? Was it blink?

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Speaker 1: What did you know about it? Was just like a

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Speaker 1: printed out for him? Did you read it? No? I

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Speaker 1: just signed my name to it. And what did you

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Speaker 1: do after you sign your name? I walked out the

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Speaker 1: front door and left again. And what was your understanding

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Speaker 1: of this document? You wouldn't you just signed? You were

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Speaker 1: coming at it out and change. I just assumed she

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Speaker 1: was making another one that was more legitimate looking than

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Speaker 1: my handwritten one. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. So the defense

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Speaker 1: has been trying to show George as a caring, attentive,

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Speaker 1: smart with it person and father. But the whole explanation

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Speaker 1: that he just signed these customer documents on a whim

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Speaker 1: to me undercuts the caring, an attentive father image. It

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Speaker 1: reinforces the idea that he actually didn't really care, that

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Speaker 1: he would just sign something without thinking about it or

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Speaker 1: putting any thought into it. His a defense attorney attempts

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Speaker 1: to explain the decision, but I think the whole thing

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Speaker 1: undercuts what the defense has been trying to do, which

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Speaker 1: is a completely fair point. I would say in the

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Speaker 1: totality of what he's been saying in his testimony so far,

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Speaker 1: they're trying to make him stand alone and stand apart

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Speaker 1: from his other family members. It also shows that he

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Speaker 1: was pretty conditioned to do whatever his mother said. Kind

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Speaker 1: Of my takeaway from what the story is they're telling

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Speaker 1: is that George kind of got accustomed to dealing with

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Speaker 1: his mother and that his family was always doing some

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Speaker 1: kind of a scam or a con and that he

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Speaker 1: just looked the other ways or threw his hands up

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Speaker 1: and didn't really think much of it. Well, the defense

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Speaker 1: can't have it both ways. They can't say on the

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Speaker 1: one hand that he is carrying a ton to father

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Speaker 1: who thinks everything through and it is independent of his family,

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Speaker 1: but then also just signs a document because his mom

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Speaker 1: tells him to and he trusts her. Those are conflicting

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Speaker 1: ideas that I think the jury will see through. I

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Speaker 1: testified the day before that he had wanted to distance

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Speaker 1: himself from his family's criminal activities. George admitted to chopping

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Speaker 1: up cars for insurance money. Did you ever make money

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Speaker 1: other than driving trucks multiple different ways? Did you ever

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Speaker 1: cut up trucks? Yes? Explain that my grandfather, my mom's father,

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Speaker 1: would have people come by that would have a diesel

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Speaker 1: Dodge truck or a diesel chavier or whatever contruct really

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Speaker 1: but it. They would owe on the truck and they

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Speaker 1: would want out from under it. So I'd give them

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Speaker 1: five hundred to two thousand dollars and they'd give me

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Speaker 1: the truck and give me a week to chop with

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Speaker 1: up and sell it. And then they reported stolen and

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Speaker 1: turned in on the insurance company. And so explain how

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Speaker 1: that works as far as trapping up, and so you

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Speaker 1: just take it apart, piece by piece, and then you

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Speaker 1: sell a part different parts of different people. And you

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Speaker 1: did that when you live Don Jeters. Yes, you know

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Speaker 1: approximately how many trucks. Believe five later, defense attorney John

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Speaker 1: Parker pivoted to address the damaging BCI recordings. George Wagner

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Speaker 1: tried to counter the prosecution's descriptions of some of the

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Speaker 1: most incriminating comments. Thinking back on these recordings that we

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Speaker 1: listened to, do you remember saying on the recordings anything

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Speaker 1: about your mother and whether she should get an attorney

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Speaker 1: or not. Do you remember any of that? Yes, The

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Speaker 1: conversations that I believe you're talking about is that if

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Speaker 1: all of us were arrested, that my mother should get

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Speaker 1: the best one. And did you say that? Yes? Why

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Speaker 1: did you say that? Because my mom's the one that

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Speaker 1: watched the kids five days a week while we were

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Speaker 1: going anyway. They were used to being with her for

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Speaker 1: five days a week, and I feared it would be

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Speaker 1: easier on the children. What were you thinking? I was

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Speaker 1: just going under what what? Basically? I understood from the

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Speaker 1: attorneys that if we got arrested that it could take

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Speaker 1: six months, It could take two years to get to

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Speaker 1: a trial and be able to work things out. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember on some of the recordings we listened to

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Speaker 1: your mother saying something about being framed? Yes, what do

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Speaker 1: you My mom and brother has said that since the beginning.

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Speaker 1: That's why I believe that we were being framed, because

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Speaker 1: they said that they were twisting everything that my mom

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Speaker 1: and brother had on their phones and laptops, and they

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Speaker 1: were trying to frame us. And was that your mindset

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Speaker 1: during these conversations. Yes, After listening to these recordings that

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Speaker 1: we heard in court, how do you feel about what

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Speaker 1: Jake was saying and what you now know he did?

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Speaker 1: I now know that he was just lying through his

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Speaker 1: teeth to me. What about your mother? The same? Thanks

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Speaker 1: you just lying to me from the beginning. Did you

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Speaker 1: ever tell your mother referencing these recordings, did you ever

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Speaker 1: tell your mother you would take the blame for these murders? No?

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Speaker 1: I did not. So George has testified that he didn't

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Speaker 1: trust his mother. We know this. He also didn't trust

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Speaker 1: his brother, and he knew he was being raised frankly

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Speaker 1: by career criminals, and in his opinion, his brother was

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Speaker 1: very selfish and manipulative. And at this point, whether this

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Speaker 1: is before the murders or even after the murders, George

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Speaker 1: was supposed to be on the straight and narrow. George

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Speaker 1: likes to claim that he knew the whole time his

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Speaker 1: family were liars and criminals and did not trust them. Yet,

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Speaker 1: according to his narrative, after the murders, he just chooses

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Speaker 1: to believe their story about what happened in and around

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Speaker 1: the road in Massacre. It just doesn't line up about

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Speaker 1: the explanation George Gabe earlier. He knows their liars, yet

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Speaker 1: accepts their statements about the murders. These are the kinds

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Speaker 1: of things that the prosecution is definitely noticing, and they're

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Speaker 1: definitely going to bring up a cross because they want

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Speaker 1: to really highlight them for the jury. Attorney John Parker

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Speaker 1: then focused on one of the most potentially damaging recordings.

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Speaker 1: In it, George Wagner threatened BCA and to get her

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Speaker 1: Ryan Schierer. George testified that it was not a real threat,

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Speaker 1: but a comment made out of frustration and anger. One

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Speaker 1: of the conversations West listened to in both your brother

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Speaker 1: and your mother and you were kind of in the background.

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Speaker 1: Your mother said something about their framing us. You remember that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that she would take the death. Yeah, you remember that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: at that time, did you know your mom and brother

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Speaker 1: were involved in these murders or committed the murders. No,

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Speaker 1: I think it was in that same conversation, Jake says

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Speaker 1: he will get out one way or another. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember that, Yeah, at that time, did you know he

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Speaker 1: had killed these people? No? I was on the assumption

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Speaker 1: that he was referring to if he got framed and

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Speaker 1: was wrongfully convicted. And then your voice is in the

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Speaker 1: background and you say it ain't gonna have the electric

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Speaker 1: chair or words to that. Yeah, you remember that. What

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Speaker 1: did you mean by that? I just get irritated when

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Speaker 1: people were messing with my family and stuff, especially when

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Speaker 1: I'm out for five days with no sleep and a

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Speaker 1: massive amounts of caffeine and makes your irritable. Did you

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Speaker 1: know at that point that your mom and brother were

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Speaker 1: actually guilty than even are you guilty of any of

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Speaker 1: these events? No? On that same recording or conversation, remember

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Speaker 1: hearing your boys say I want to kill Ryan? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I said that. What did you mean by that? Explain context?

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Speaker 1: It was more of line like when you were angry somebody,

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Speaker 1: you say stupid stuff like that, don't mean that you

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Speaker 1: mean it. I think everybody said that about somebody at

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Speaker 1: one point or another. There was another comment you made

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Speaker 1: to your brother during one of these full calls about

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Speaker 1: you telling people the truth is the reason we're in

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Speaker 1: this mess. You remember that? Can you explain it? In

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Speaker 1: the beginning, I believe that the finger was pointed at

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Speaker 1: my family because my brother pissed off the manlies, which

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Speaker 1: he does to almost everybody he's around. We're going to

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Speaker 1: take a break. We'll be back in a moment. They

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Speaker 1: say history is written by the victors, but you know

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Speaker 1: what they've left out a hell of a lot of

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00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 1: juicy stuff date Abe Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a

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Speaker 1: young couple was sitting right next to him when he

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Speaker 1: was shot? It haunted the husband so much he later

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Speaker 1: murdered his wife. Ah, we all know who invented that, right,

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Speaker 1: and we'll think again. Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole

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Speaker 1: the idea for the telephone and then claimed it as

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Speaker 1: his own. For every pivotal moment in history, there's always

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Speaker 1: a backstory, and it's usually way more interesting than the

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Speaker 1: big story. From mysterious murders to the baffling sleep schedules

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Speaker 1: of yesteryear to the fascinating lives of those just outside

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Speaker 1: the limelight, where can uncovered the forgotten pieces of history

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Speaker 1: you didn't know you needed to know. Listen to the

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Speaker 1: backstory with me Patty Steeles twice a week on the

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called the

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Speaker 1: girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas,

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Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.

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Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and

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Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't.

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Speaker 1: He really wasn't, he shouted into the point she went unconscious.

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Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one

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Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us

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Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to

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Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.

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Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,

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Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would, and I would say,

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Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. I will always hound

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Speaker 1: you and haunt you. You can listen to the girlfriends

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Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts. I hope nobody thinks I got this story

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Speaker 1: because I slept with the guy. So how does the

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Speaker 1: half American, half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans with

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Speaker 1: absolutely no journalism experience break the biggest story of the eighties.

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Speaker 1: That's what journalista is all about. I'm a woman not

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Speaker 1: wearing a brawl curses like a sailor. I got balls

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Speaker 1: bigger than any man, and rather used to call me

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Speaker 1: his secret weapon. Pablo gave me half a pound of

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Speaker 1: cocaine with a wedding. We work hard, but we party

403
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 1: even harder because you never knew it's the next day's

404
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,239
Speaker 1: battle was going to be the one that killed were

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Speaker 1: up in the air, I heard three somethings. I looked

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Speaker 1: at one soldier and I said, that's not a good sound.

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00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: Is no? We're going, dad? And I said, what do

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Speaker 1: you mean? We're going? Dad? And then we started to go. Dad.

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Speaker 1: Listen to Journalista every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. Defense attorney John Parker

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00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: wrapped up his questioning of George Wagner by again asking

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Speaker 1: him if he had any involvement in the murders. Did

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Speaker 1: you know your family was going to kill these people

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Speaker 1: now before it happened? Did you now after it happened?

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Speaker 1: Did you Did you ever have any conversations with your

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Speaker 1: brother about it? Now? Did you ever talk to your

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Speaker 1: mom about it? Now? Your dad? Now, if you had

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Speaker 1: known this was going to happen, what would you do?

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Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how, but I would have stopped

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Speaker 1: at one way or another. Did you love him? Yes?

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Speaker 1: Did you consider Frankie a good friend? I said to me,

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Speaker 1: my best friend? Looking at Wagners of a fifty three

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Speaker 1: days one, this is your wedding photo. Right, Yes, you

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00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: have one arm around who Tabby? You have another arm

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00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: around who loves Frankie? Here again, Jeff and Stephanie. We

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Speaker 1: knew when we saw the photo from George and Tabitha's

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00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: wedding a couple of years ago that it was influential

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00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: and significant, but singing in court really proves that to

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Speaker 1: be true. This was a big moment where both of

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Speaker 1: the families got together and it highlights their relationships. We'll

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Speaker 1: share it on our social media, but it's a pretty

432
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 1: astounding photograph and it really paints a picture of how

433
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: close they were. And everybody in the photograph is either

434
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: dead or accused of their murder. The statement cross Exam

435
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: Here's Lawn Crimes investigative reporter and Jeanette Levy. I was

436
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: actually part of me felt kind of impressed watching him,

437
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: I'm direct, because I felt that he just seemed calm

438
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: and he'd obviously been prepped, that he just seemed to

439
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: have answers for everything, and that that kind of made

440
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 1: me wonder a little bit because you can't have it,

441
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: you can't always have the answers for everything, but he

442
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: seemed to have an answer for everything. Obviously he's been prepped,

443
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: he's had years to think about this. But at the

444
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: same time, he seemed to be doing a good job

445
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 1: on the stand. During direct the prosecution focused in on

446
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: George Whiten the force honesty today on the witness stand.

447
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: After hours of questioning by his own attorney, George Wagner

448
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: came under intense scrutiny during the prosecution's cross examination. Prosecutor

449
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: and jaw Kneppa immediately zeroed in on George's claim that

450
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 1: he and Frankie Rodin had a close relationship. Let's go

451
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: ahead and start with Frankie. You consider him your best friend. Yeah,

452
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 1: so in two thou and twelve you have your arm

453
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: around Frankie, he's standing next to you at your wedding. Yes,

454
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: And prior to the homicides, when had you ever talked

455
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: to Frankie the last time beforehand? Yes, probably late December,

456
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: late December of twenty fifteen. Yeah, okay, And isn't it

457
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: true that you told us that you didn't even know

458
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: Hannah Hazel. I have met her one time in my life,

459
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: but at the border when you were interviewed in twenty seventeen,

460
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: you said you had never met her. That the last

461
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 1: person you knew Frankie to be seen was some girl

462
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: named Angel, and that was before you got married in

463
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve. Angel was before Chelsea. You indicated

464
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: at the border that the last person you knew Frankie

465
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: to be seen was some girl named Angel, and that

466
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: was when you still had your pulling chuck, which was

467
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: before you got married. Not that I remember. I could

468
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: be wrong that, but not that I remember, Okay, Well,

469
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: George Wagner admitted that he hadn't seen Frankie Rodin in

470
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: months and had never met Frankie's son. He explained that

471
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: he didn't have as much time for friends when he

472
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: began long hall driving, also after his own son was born. However,

473
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: the prosecution presented an alternative theory. So you'd never met

474
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: Hannah Hazel. Usually a woman's pregnant for nine months and

475
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: Ruger was six months at the time of birth. That's

476
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: at least fifteen months where you didn't know Hannah Hazel,

477
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: never met her. Never matter, but Frankie was your best friend. Yes,

478
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: who I consider my best friend? Who you block on Facebook?

479
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: Who I did not blok on Facebook? Well, he was

480
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: blocked on your Facebook. It might be, but it didn't

481
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: happen for me, okay. And you did not have any

482
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: Facebook conversations with Frankie either, did you? Not very many

483
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: that I remember as in zero n remember okay, And

484
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: you can up a question. George's a relationship with the

485
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: mother of Frankie Rodin's oldest child, who had justified earlier

486
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: in the child she alleged that there was bad blood

487
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: between George and Frankie. You remember Chelsea testifying, yes, okay.

488
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: Is it true that you reached out to her at

489
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: some point at one point in time by me and

490
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: Chelsea started talking, yes, okay. And Frankie found out about that, Yes,

491
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: and he was upset in the beginning, yes to explained

492
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: that there was nothing more than friends. Okay. So then

493
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: Chelsea's lying when she said that that put a You

494
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: guys held a grudge against each other after that and

495
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: your friendship. We did not call the brothers against the

496
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: other after that. Okay. So she's lying. I'm not saying

497
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: she's lying, I'm saying she's mistaken. Okay. But you never

498
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: met Hannah Hazel and didn't know her name. You also

499
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: indicated Frankie was a fighter, Yes, that you've seen videos

500
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: of him fighting. Yes, and that you would have to

501
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: go through Frankie to get to anyone in the family

502
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: more unlikely. Yeah, I mean that's what you said. Yeah, okay,

503
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: I don't see Frankie letting anybody mess with his family. Yeah,

504
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: or Kenneth right, I don't see anybody in their family

505
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: letting anybody mess with their family. And Jacanappa also attacks

506
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: George Wagner's claims that he hated his own family and

507
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: wanted to escape them. She does this by referencing a

508
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: conversation George had in twenty eighteen with his new girlfriend Josie,

509
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: and I guess you tried, or at least it seemed

510
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: yesterday that you were talking about Jake as if you

511
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: hardly even liked him at which point in time, any

512
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: point in time from early childhood, it wasn't that bad

513
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: with him because we were just little kids. But the

514
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: older we got, the worst he got, Okay, And at

515
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: the last point I might get ten good days out

516
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: of a hundred with him. Maybe Okay, But you just

517
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: saw that text message in twenty and eighteen to Josie. Yes,

518
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: where you're saying I'm really close with my family, you're

519
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: kind of warning her or making sure that she's okay

520
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: with that, because you were contemplating having her come to

521
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: live with you, right the house I was staying in there.

522
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: Say it again now that the household staying in there.

523
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: But you wanted her to come live with you. I

524
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: wanted her to move down here eventually, because that's what

525
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,719
Speaker 1: she was talking about. But I wasn't going to let

526
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: her move in the house with my mother. Okay, you

527
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: didn't want her in the house with your mother, correct,

528
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: So in July of twenty eighteen, when you were talking

529
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: to your mother on the phone, when you said that

530
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: you wanted your own little farm somewhere out west where

531
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: I can still make a living and where me and

532
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: Jake can live peacefully with you and the kids and

533
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: whoever else we decide to bring, so we can have

534
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: a nice, peaceful life without all of that craft and

535
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: the drama from everyone. Am I allowed to explain this?

536
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: Did you say that? Yes? I said that, Okay, allowed

537
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: to go into details this. Sure, it doesn't mean live

538
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: in the same house. It means by a bigger farm,

539
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: and he has a house on one corner. She has

540
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: a house on one corner, and I've got a house

541
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: on corner. Okay, kind of like what you guys were

542
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: considering doing when you moved to Missouri. Right. In a

543
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: further effort to discredit George Wagner's testimony, the prosecution brought

544
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: out transcripts of his interview with BCI agents at the

545
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: Montana border in twenty seventeen and challenged him on the

546
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: discrepancy between what he said then and what he was

547
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: saying now on the witness stand. I know you talked

548
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: about your mother and you said, well, you describe her

549
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: to me, she is thanks, you'd better and everybody thanks.

550
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: Everything has to be done her way. I would probably

551
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: say that I could put selfish in that manipulative. And again,

552
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: I mean, this is new and different than what you

553
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: told us at the border. Right. That's not what you

554
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: said about your mother at the border. Right. Don't remember

555
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: what I said at the border? Okay, Well, you weren't

556
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: asked if your mom was controlling. I bet your mom

557
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: is so controlling that she probably even organized the whole thing.

558
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: And you said, my mom is not controlling. You were

559
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: asked your mom's not controlling? You said no at all.

560
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: Do you remember saying that? Don't remember saying that? Okay, Well,

561
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: is that true that she's not controlling? Correct? As a

562
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: before my tenth birthday, she wasn't so bad that I

563
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: can remember, but she got worse as the years went by. Okay.

564
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: So in twenty seventeen, when you were asked that question

565
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: and you said she's not controlling, she trying to do

566
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: or not as far as actually controlling me, No, she didn't, okay,

567
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: but she tried to control me. If that answers your question, Well,

568
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to figure out what the truth is,

569
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: considering you said one thing at the border and you

570
00:33:53,640 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: said an entirely different thing yesterday today. So, despite testifying

571
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: that his mother was manipulative and selfish, George tried to

572
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: explain why you was willing to sign away custody of

573
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: a son. You talked about these custody documents that you

574
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: and your brother signed and your mother forged the signature

575
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: for hannah on correct, all in the same magical day. Correct.

576
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: You obviously heard the testimony that had happened at the

577
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: kitchen table in your house. It was in the kitchen.

578
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: In the kitchen, okay, so you agree with that. I agree.

579
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 1: I signed my name to mine in the kitchen and left. Okay,

580
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: and you in the kittyd you just signed that. Yes,

581
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: so you trust your mother. I trust my mother. There's

582
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: some parts of her I don't trust. Okay, but you

583
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: signed this document saying if you were to be killed

584
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 1: or something happened to you, she would get your child.

585
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: Who else would I lead him too? I have no

586
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: one else to leading to. Yeah, but it was dated

587
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, and that's not when you signed those documents.

588
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 1: I didn't know what date was on it. I signed

589
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: it early sixteen. You signed it in April sometimes sixteen.

590
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: I don't know the exact date. Yeah, well, obviously sometime

591
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: after April third or twenty and sixteen, because that was

592
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: when it was printed off the computer. Could be. I

593
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: don't know the exact date. I just know it was

594
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: sixteen minutes. I didn't pay much attention to another ste

595
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: and you have my signature. And Jockneppa then showed George

596
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: Wagner the custody documents that he signed. She once again

597
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: pressed George and why he signed them without paying attention.

598
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: You could look at that. It's the document that signed.

599
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: So that is your signature, yeah, okay, And you see

600
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: the date at the bottom there. Yes, And it's that

601
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: consistent with your experience as far as your computer spinning

602
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 1: out the date something is printed off the computer. I

603
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: couldn't tell you on that. I don't computers that much.

604
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: But this is dated March eleventh, twenty fifteen. Yes, and

605
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: it clearly was not signed in March eleventh, twenty fifteen.

606
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: I signed it today. It was printed off. So I

607
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: mean you realize it's forgery to back date a document, right, yes, okay,

608
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: And it's forgery to sign somebody else's name to a document. Yes,

609
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: I can see that, Okay, I just don't see how

610
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: me signing my name is forgery. Well, it was back dated.

611
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: I didn't know that the page was, from my understanding blank,

612
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: from what I can remember, when I signed my name.

613
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 1: She just signed your name to a completely blank document,

614
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: to a custody document, she said, signed my name. I

615
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 1: signed it and walked out. But you wanted to leave

616
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: your child with your mother if something was ever to

617
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: happened to me, Yes, I had no one else. There

618
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: was no one else to leave it to him. Again,

619
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: you had lots of conversations about concerns about the handwriting

620
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: that was going to be taken because it's something to

621
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: a law enforcement and I was raised at law from

622
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: was crooking, tries to twist everything. Well, you were raised

623
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: to commit a lot of crimes. I was not that

624
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: it was right, but that's how I was raised. It

625
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: took me a long time to realize that it was wrong.

626
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: And when did you realize that? When I realized that

627
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: my dad was wrong and it was actually hurting people,

628
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: So that particular crime you realized was actually hurting people, right,

629
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: the stealing of stuff out of traitors, Yes, but you

630
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: didn't swear off a life of crime just that particular

631
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 1: when you realize they're actually were victims with the stealing

632
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: fuel and lows. I quit in late fourteen. I believe

633
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: the last thing I can remember doing, aside from deer hunting,

634
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: that was b considered illegal was the dirtmax being racked

635
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: and asked after that it was just deer hunting. Despite

636
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: this claim of changing his ways and leaving his life

637
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 1: of crime behind him, and you canepa question George Wagner

638
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: about the illegal activities he continued to engage in, including

639
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: using a fake address to get his trucking license. So

640
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: it's an application for a driver's license, correct? Yes, okay.

641
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: And what address did you put down there? Okay, that's

642
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: not where you were living. No, it's my grandmother's form,

643
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: but I remember, correct, it has something to do with

644
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: or Now that's why use an address. Well, you're providing

645
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: false information to a state agency, correct, Yes, Prosecutor and

646
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: Jakin Epa then showed George Wagner a series of gun

647
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: receipts and purchase forms. So you know that you have

648
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 1: to put accurate information on those forms, correct, Yeah, it's

649
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 1: a federal offense not to But you're purchasing a firearm, right, Okay,

650
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: So if you could go ahead and look at it

651
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: and tell us what address you put down there, it's

652
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: eight four or five Bethel Whigred Okay, but that's not reloked.

653
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 1: Not At the time. My license had nic expired, and

654
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: when I bought my firearms, I was advised just to

655
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: use what was on the driver's license I had and

656
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: taken time to change it. Actually, that's not permitted. That's

657
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: what I was advised five people I bought them from.

658
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: They said to put the addresses on my license. You

659
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: understand that making any false, oral or written statement, or

660
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this

661
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: transaction as a crime punishable as a felony under federal law. Yes,

662
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: but at least three at least these three fours, you

663
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: did not provide accurate information correct as far as the

664
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: driver's license address them. After George Wagner admitts lying on

665
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: government firearm forms, Kneppa moved to point out other key

666
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: discrepancies in George Wagner's testimony, particularly around when he went

667
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: to bed the night of the murders. Prosecutors say. In

668
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, Wagner told investigators that he'd gone to bed

669
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 1: at twelve thirty am on the night of the murders

670
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: after watching a movie with his family. However, in his

671
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: testimony today, he claimed it was around ten pm. You

672
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: said that the night of the homicides you went to

673
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 1: bed at ten o'clock. Ten issues, if I remember correctly.

674
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: It's been a long time, okay, all right, And so

675
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,399
Speaker 1: do you recall again being interviewed at the border and

676
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: saying that the four of you, well the six of you,

677
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: actually your mom, your dad, your brother, yourself, we're watching

678
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: a movie and you were up until you didn't go

679
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: to bed till twelve thirty. I don't remember what time

680
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: it was. Okay. Do you remember telling the border at

681
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: the border, the agents when they asked you about what

682
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: you did that night, you saying that your mom had

683
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 1: fixed cheeseburgers for you and how delicious they were, and

684
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: she makes the best and maybe one day she could

685
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: make them for them. I don't remember that now. I'm

686
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 1: not saying I didn't say. I just said I don't remember. Okay.

687
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: You indicated that you watched a fairy movie. Don't remember

688
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: what movie that wanted to watch. I just I remember

689
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: watching the movie of the kids at this point, I

690
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: don't remember what it was. It's been a long time.

691
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: And you indicated that that is when your son would

692
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: usually go to sleep as well. My son usually went

693
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: to sleep ten to eleven usually. Okay, there's what I

694
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: can remember. Is there a reason that you would lie

695
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: to the people at the border. I'm not saying I did.

696
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: I'm saying I don't remember what times like told him that. Okay,

697
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: I mean it may have been. I just from my

698
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: memory now, I remember going to bed around tennish. I

699
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: could be wrong about that, but that's what I remember. Yeah, Well,

700
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 1: because now we know that Chris Senior and Gary were

701
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: being killed at eleven PM, right, I don't know that.

702
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: You don't know that. Previously, Jake Wagner testified that George

703
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: participated in the murders. However, Jake said that George did

704
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 1: not fire any shots. You don't know that. That's when

705
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,439
Speaker 1: your dad had Chris called his phone and you saw

706
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: the phone calls. Correct, I'm saying I wasn't there. I

707
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: don't know when Chris had died. Right, Okay, you know

708
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: that's what Jake said. I know my brother's time is

709
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: off on everything that's been showed in here. So now

710
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: we know, at least according to Jake, that Chris Senior

711
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: and Gary were killed at eleven o'clock. Right. I think

712
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: that's what he said, which makes your story at the

713
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: border impossible. Right Again, I don't remember exactly everything I

714
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: said at the border. Well, it's when you were trying

715
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: your best to tell the truth when you were interviewed

716
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: at the border, correct to my knowledge of what I remembered. Okay,

717
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: I'm not interested as much as what you said, as

718
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: much as do you agree that it would be more

719
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: accurate back then. I can't agree yes or no, because

720
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: I just don't know you agree that you were trying

721
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: to be honest with the agents. Certainly weren't trying to

722
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: lie to them. Yes, I agree on that you weren't

723
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: trying to provide a cover story for you and your

724
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: brother and your father and your mother. Right, So this

725
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: whole idea that we're going to coordinate our response and

726
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: say that we were all together a family night movie

727
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: night watching, watching a video. Surely you didn't just make

728
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 1: this up when you tour no people at the border.

729
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: It just happened to be the same story that you

730
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: guys had agreed in advance to tell. There was no

731
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: agreement in advance. My dad came down, my kid didn't

732
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: want to leave. So your story today or yesterday is

733
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 1: that you actually went to bed at ten from well,

734
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: I remember at this point in time, I believe it

735
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: was Tannish Okay. So how could Jake and your father

736
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: have been up on the hill killing Chris Senior and

737
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 1: Gary less than an hour after you went into your bedroom.

738
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: I can't answer that. I don't know. Here's James Pilcher,

739
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now at Local twelve. When

740
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: George Wagner testified that he went to bed At ten o'clock,

741
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: the two special prosecutors at Angela Kinnepa and Andy Wilson,

742
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 1: looked at each other almost like pointed at each other like, haha,

743
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: we have not heard what George had to tell Ohio

744
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: Bci when they stopped the family at the Montana border

745
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 1: on their way back from Alaska in May June twenty seventeen.

746
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: They have not played a lot of that. They have

747
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: not played any of that. They played some of jakes,

748
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: they played Angela's, but they've not played any of George's.

749
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,399
Speaker 1: And I think there was a strategic reason behind that,

750
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: because they might have expected that George was going to

751
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 1: testify for himself and they did not want him to

752
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: hear what he had to say back then, so we

753
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: could they could catch him in a contradiction, and they

754
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: did and it was a big one. So they spent

755
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: a lot of time and they hammered Angela Kneppa. If

756
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 1: you listen to Achieve hammers a moment. And I think

757
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: if I'm sending there as a juror, if they paid

758
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 1: his closest attention to this trial as I have, that's

759
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 1: that's a red flag. The prosecution also hammer George Wagner

760
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: on other red flags as well. This included denying any

761
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: knowledge that Jake owned a Walter called twenty two pistol.

762
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: Have you ever owned a nineteen eleven twenty two? No,

763
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: has your brother ever owned one? To my knowledge? You know,

764
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: so his testimony that he had this for more than

765
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: a year, you were unaware of that. If he's owned

766
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: it that long, I didn't know about it. Okay, Well,

767
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: obviously there's a picture of him holding that weapon in

768
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. Now I see even the pictures. Is the vaccine?

769
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: I didn't think that we should hit it from you?

770
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: What is it? He hit it from you? If he's

771
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: had it that long, he must have got a curiosity.

772
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 1: Why would he do that? Because you guys keep those

773
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: your guns in your right. According to my brother's statement,

774
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:04,919
Speaker 1: he said that he owned every one of them guns

775
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: on that list, and I've not seen over half of

776
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: what's under his name. You fail to answer the question.

777
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: You guys keep your guns and you're safe, correct most

778
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: of them. So you're saying he owns guns you don't

779
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: know of. I'm saying it's possible I've owned hundreds. Again,

780
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: for over a year, he owned a gun and you

781
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 1: were oblivious to it. It's very well possible here again

782
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: journalist James Pilcher. George has said he never saw and

783
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,879
Speaker 1: has never seen the nineteen eleven Walter Colt twenty two

784
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: caliber that was used in the murders, even though aging

785
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: Scheider texted them a picture of Jake holding it that

786
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: they got off a Jake's phone, say, you've never seen

787
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: that gun before. Ever. He bought that handgun at a

788
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: gun shilling Columbus a couple of years before the murders

789
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: at the end of January, on the same day that

790
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 1: George bought a different gun at the same gun show.

791
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: They have the paperwork showing that they didn't buy their

792
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: guns at the same vendor. So George was like, I

793
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: didn't even know, really know Jake was there, so that

794
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: if I'm a juror, I'm thinking, wait a minute, you

795
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: mean to sell the YouTube. Boys went up there separately

796
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: to the same gun show and bought guns on the

797
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 1: same day and didn't know each other was there while

798
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: your father's there. It was a small but key moment

799
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. During one of his

800
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: conversations with Jake after the murders, George was recorded by

801
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,919
Speaker 1: BCI agents complaining that Jake could not tell lie all

802
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: this with George insisting that Jake destroy evidence. And you

803
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: actually talk about that with Jake again, about how my

804
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: whole wife, I've been in trouble with you because of

805
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 1: you telling everything and telling honesty. Yes, And everybody says,

806
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 1: my anger mouth is going to get us in trouble,

807
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 1: But it's always been your honesty that gets us in trouble. Correct.

808
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 1: And you say, children, you have to tell on yourself, children,

809
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: you have to tell on me. Yeah, as we're children.

810
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: That's why I'm referring to his as when we're children.

811
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 1: And you also tell him that he should have gotten

812
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: rid of the phone and he should have smashed the laptop. Correct, Yes,

813
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: and again that's because we got a lot of evidence

814
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: from those items. My understanding of it was that he

815
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 1: kept saying, you guys were twisting stuff that you found

816
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: on it to try and frame him. Let's stop here

817
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 1: for another break. Oh, I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting

818
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen

819
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the

820
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 1: most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages,

821
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He

822
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't.

823
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 1: He shouted into the point that she went unconscious. Bob

824
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,959
Speaker 1: could lie about anything, but only takes the one time

825
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 1: when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends

826
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay

827
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.

828
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,

829
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I

830
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will

831
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to

832
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or

833
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. They say history is written

834
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: by the victors, but you know what they've left out

835
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: a hell of a lot of juicy stuff. Take Abe

836
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 1: Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a young couple was sitting

837
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: right next to him when he was shot? It haunted

838
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: the husband so much he later murdered his wife. Ah,

839
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 1: we all know who invented that, right, and we'll think again.

840
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole the idea for the telephone,

841
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: and then claimed it as his own. For every pivotal

842
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 1: moment in history, there's always a backstory, and it's usually

843
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 1: way more interesting than the big story. From mysterious murders

844
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: to the baffling sleep schedules of yesteryear to the fascinating

845
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: lives of those just outside the limelight. Where going to

846
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: uncover the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know you

847
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 1: need it to know. Listen to the Backstory with me

848
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,280
Speaker 1: Patty Steele, twice a week on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

849
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, mappam

850
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: babble here, host of Revisionist History, a show about the

851
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: overlooked and the misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else.

852
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,760
Speaker 1: Like our ongoing obsessive campaign to blow up the world's

853
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: most focused college ranking system, why not just throw in

854
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: a few extra zeros or witness me after years of

855
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: fancy public speaking, learning that I kind of have to

856
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: start over. The tone that you had throughout the debate

857
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: was very similar to some of the students that I

858
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 1: do work with, and that's what I teach them not

859
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: to do. We're making more revisionist history for you this

860
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: year than ever from places all across this great country,

861
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: emergency rooms, huge theaters, small towns and shooting rangeous and

862
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: you want to put your thumb up there, You're gonna

863
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: pull the trigger with this finger here. Okay, listen to

864
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever

865
00:51:54,960 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Nearing the end of her cross examination,

866
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: Prosecutor Andrew Kinnepa brought up George's long history of calling

867
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: female family members derogatory names. This included one incident where

868
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: George complained about Jake's four year old daughter. This is

869
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: the call where you said she can't keep her nose

870
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:27,720
Speaker 1: out of somebody else's life. She being yes, and Jake says, George,

871
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: she's four years old. You said she does anything, delivered

872
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: you to try it and crush him deliberately. Bitch got

873
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 1: to ruin everything. You referred to your niece, You're four

874
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: year niece as a bitch because she was ying information.

875
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: What I would explain this before five to six days

876
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: with no sleep in caffeine, you say stuff you don't

877
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: really mean. Yeah, you said a lot of things. Makes

878
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: you irritable. Sure, and she went around telling my son

879
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: that she had a new mom, and he didn't. You

880
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: called her bitch. You remember calling your grandmother Frederica a

881
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: crazy horror. I don't remember that. You don't remember telling

882
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: your mom to calm that crazy hor down. I don't

883
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: remember that conversation. Am I saying? It's possible? Yeah, I

884
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: probably said something like that. I've said a lot of

885
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 1: stuff on my being upset that I really didn't mean.

886
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: But I've said it because I've been days without sleeping,

887
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 1: massive amounts of caffeine. Sure, And I mean you called

888
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,439
Speaker 1: Randa I think of lazy crack hor I think I've

889
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:42,919
Speaker 1: called her that more than once. Okay. And you told

890
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: the agents at the order that you thought that Hannah

891
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: turned into a hor from what everybody else was saying. Okay,

892
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,760
Speaker 1: And that was after she had left Jake. What everybody

893
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 1: else was saying after she left Jake. To my understanding,

894
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: I don't think she ever really did, but that's what

895
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 1: everybody else was say. Okay. And you called certainly called

896
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: Tabby a whore many times, and referred to bat Ban

897
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: as a whore just like Tabby many times. Here again,

898
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: and sette Levy, he's calling his niece. You know, I

899
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: think he called his niece a bitch. He called his

900
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: sister in law horror. I mean, and he attributes that too.

901
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: You know, I drive on the road and I'm up

902
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 1: a long time, and I eat, you know, drink caffeine,

903
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: and I just think to myself, like I could see that.

904
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I've been wound up before and

905
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 1: ranted and raved and said things. And you know, you

906
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: go off on a tirade, but at the same time,

907
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 1: in one of my tirades are rants. I've not spoken

908
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: about a four year old child like that. Unable to

909
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: explain the many inconsistencies in his testimony, George Wagner pushed

910
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: back against Anti Kneppa's questions. He insisted, in one of

911
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,959
Speaker 1: the most tense exchanges of the day, that his mother

912
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: and brother are lying, and my mom and brother are

913
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: lying to you. They have been like everybody else, Like

914
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: everybody else's lying, like Tabitha's lying, Chelsea's lying, like everybody's

915
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 1: talking about Frankie's lying. Everybody is lying except for you.

916
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 1: I did not say Chelsea's lying. I said, shoot, mistaken right.

917
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: And even though you've not managed to tell us anything

918
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:38,839
Speaker 1: consistent with what you told the agents at the border

919
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen. You're the one that's telling the truth.

920
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly everything I said at the border.

921
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:52,439
Speaker 1: That's not the question. The question is what you're saying

922
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 1: to does today is not consistent with what you've said

923
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: at the border. Yeah. I can't say if you guys

924
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: are not because I don't remember everything sent there. But

925
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: everybody else is lying. I'm saying that my mom and

926
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 1: Tabby Jake's lying about that night. We're very mistaken, one

927
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: of confusing two different events into one. Angela Caneppa trying

928
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: to trip up George, and he comes across as very calm,

929
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: very prepared, very even keeled. Does it work again, He

930
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: only needs to convince one juror that he is telling

931
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: the truth and that Jake and his mom are lying.

932
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,240
Speaker 1: Canneppa is trying to rattle him, but it just doesn't

933
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 1: really seem to work. And at the same time, Canneppa

934
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 1: makes the point for George to be telling the truth,

935
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: a lot of other people need to be lying, which

936
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: is a good point because Jake and Angela were not

937
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: able to corroborate their stories. They have both been in

938
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 1: separate jails this entire time, with no communication, So the

939
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 1: fact that their true stories matchup is a pretty good

940
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 1: indicator that they perhaps they're telling the truth, because George

941
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 1: could be lying all by himself. But how could those

942
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 1: two have the same story without communicating first. They may

943
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 1: have practiced a script to some degree before their arrests.

944
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,760
Speaker 1: They might have been planning for this moment all along.

945
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, Jake Wagner and Angela Wagner

946
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 1: are both the state's witnesses, so that means they've been

947
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 1: working with the prosecution and their team to figure out

948
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: what they're going to say on the stand. And in

949
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: conversation with Mike Allen, lawyers have to tread very lately

950
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: about coaching witnesses on what they're going to say, but

951
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: we do know they can prepare them, and prepare them

952
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: they do. They spend hours talking over every single possible detail.

953
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 1: Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen.

954
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: We heard all this technical stuff for so long, like

955
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: the ballistics and the shoeprint, all these things, but I

956
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 1: think it ultimately comes down to it's what George said

957
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: versus what Angela and Jake said. Like that is what

958
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: I think the jury probably most weighed. Do you see

959
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:51,919
Speaker 1: it that same way or yeah, I mean, it would

960
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: come down to credibility from George and Angela. And I

961
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 1: think the credibility goes with Angela because George any number

962
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: of times just said I don't recall I don't remember.

963
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: I didn't count him up, but there are a lot

964
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: of times that he said that, and I don't recall

965
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,919
Speaker 1: hearing that in Angela or Jake's testimony for that matter.

966
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: It was just pretty straightforward. So I think if you

967
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: didn't have the physical evidence and it's you know, it's

968
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: George against those two, I think they win and George

969
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 1: doesn't because a lot of things he didn't remember, and

970
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: he contradicted himself on a number of occasions. And also,

971
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: I mean it's Jake and Angela. They have not communicated,

972
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: so it's not like their comparing notes. If their stories lineup,

973
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 1: is that must be worth a lot more than George

974
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: by himself, no question about it, because they were kept separate.

975
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 1: There's no way they could get together out in the hallway,

976
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: and they get their stories straight. So yeah, I mean

977
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 1: that gives them I think another reason why they have

978
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: the greater credibility here. But the prosecution wasn't quite done

979
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 1: highlighting George Wagner's incriminating comments. You indicated that you wanted

980
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: to kill special Agen Chider. Correct. I said that, Yes, okay,

981
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: Jake didn't threaten him. Jake did not threaten him, not

982
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 1: to my knowledge. You remember telling your brother that you

983
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 1: should go to BCI and tell them that he'll rat

984
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 1: you guys out because he's the biggest rat there is. Yes,

985
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: I remember that, okay? And do you remember also telling

986
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 1: your mother? Let me tell you something. I love you

987
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 1: the only reason and I'm sorry you're gonna hate when

988
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 1: I say this, everything that you and Dad have ever

989
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 1: gotten in trouble for with them mother frickers. The only

990
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: reason they ever got away with that craft was because

991
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: every time some but he caved, everybody crumbled. I ain't

992
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: caven and I ain't crumbling. Do you remember saying that?

993
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: Don't remember them exact words, but I do remember roughly

994
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 1: the conversation, okay, And that was played in thanks. So yes, okay?

995
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 1: And is that true philosophy? You don't and you don't crumble,

996
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 1: not for what I believe you're trying to say it

997
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 1: as wow, I don't think timically you're talking about anytime

998
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 1: they got in trouble with law enforcements because somebody cracked.

999
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 1: I don't believe you should plead out to something you

1000
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: didn't do. After the prosecution ended their cross examination of

1001
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 1: George Wagner, his defense attorney John Parker once again re

1002
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: asked him several questions about the murders. George, just a

1003
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 1: few follow up questions. Probably been a long couple of

1004
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: days for you, hasn't it? Apparently? George? Did you ever

1005
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: see Jake by the nineteen love No? Did you know

1006
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 1: he owned law? No one. Did you go up on

1007
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: Union Hill Road and participate in these murders in any way?

1008
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 1: Did you plan these murder No? Did you know they

1009
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: were going to have? No? Did you know after the

1010
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 1: murders that they, in fact your family had been involved? No?

1011
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: Not until my rubbish proffer. And did you know did

1012
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 1: you ever go out to Left Fork Road where Kim

1013
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: was killed? Has anybody paid you anything for your testament?

1014
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 1: Has anybody giving you anything for your testament? Now? Did

1015
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 1: the state offer you a police bargain from your testament? No?

1016
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: Are you telling the truth? Yes? Your life is on

1017
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 1: the line. Yes. Are you telling the truth? Yea as

1018
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 1: you answer to God? Yeah? Yes, with one last chance

1019
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: to potentially trip up George Wagner prosecutor and Jacanappa asked

1020
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: him what happens to him if he admits to killing

1021
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 1: the roadents. What happens to you if you come in

1022
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 1: here and admit that you and your brother and your

1023
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 1: father went up to Union Hill Road that night and

1024
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 1: then out to Left Fork Road that night and slaughtered

1025
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 1: perfectly innocent people who lay asleep in their beds, two

1026
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 1: of them with babies in the bed with them that,

1027
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 1: from all testimony, were actively nursing their infants. What happens

1028
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: to you if you come in here on that stand

1029
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:37,760
Speaker 1: and admit to that. Do you want me here and say, well,

1030
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 1: I feel should happen to anybody that would do that?

1031
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 1: I want to know what happens to you if you

1032
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: come in here and admit that what should happen to

1033
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 1: anybody is they should have death given to them. And

1034
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 1: the biggest difference you agree between you and your brother

1035
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:59,919
Speaker 1: is that when he does wrong things, he tells about

1036
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 1: it and you don't when we were children. Yes, you

1037
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: may step down now since there's no DNA evidence connecting

1038
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:12,240
Speaker 1: George Wagner to any of the crime scenes, jurors will

1039
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 1: have to decide who they believe him or Jake and

1040
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 1: and his mom Angela, who have already said under oath

1041
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 1: that George Wagner was part of the plot to kill

1042
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 1: multiple people. More on that next time. For more information

1043
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 1: on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram

1044
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 1: at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikedon Masker is produced by

1045
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo

1046
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 1: and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tua.

1047
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: Music by Jared Aston. The piked and Masker is a

1048
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from

1049
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1050
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shoes