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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used his medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drug. Welcome Psychoactive listeners. Today's guest is

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Speaker 1: somebody who's playing a really pivotal role in the evolution

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Speaker 1: of American criminal justice, hopefully in a more progressive, thoughtful,

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Speaker 1: evidence based direction. His name is Larry Krasner. He is

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Speaker 1: the District Attorney of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Uh. He was elected

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Speaker 1: four years ago in a shocking victory, and then recently

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Speaker 1: one re election in the Democratic primary, which means he

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Speaker 1: has a very good shot of being the district attorney

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Speaker 1: for the next four years. So Larry, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us. Signed Psychoactive. You know I am always

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Speaker 1: happy to be on Psychoactive. Okay, well, we'll get into

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Speaker 1: that issue a little more deeply soon, but let me

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Speaker 1: set the context for the listeners. Right, So, Philadelphia. Philadelphia

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Speaker 1: is one of the oldest cities in America. It's about

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Speaker 1: the sixth largest city, like Phoenix or San Antonio, a

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Speaker 1: million and a half people. It's one of the poorer

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Speaker 1: cities in America. It's probably I think roughly forty black,

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Speaker 1: forty percent white, tent other Asian, Latino, etcetera. It's also

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Speaker 1: a city which has among the higher homicide rates in

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Speaker 1: America and among the higher overdose fatality rates in America.

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Speaker 1: So it's the city struggling with a lot. And in

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Speaker 1: that context, you have been well, you were, you know,

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Speaker 1: a public defender and a civil rights attorney for thirty

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Speaker 1: years right twenty seventeen, and then launched what appeared to

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Speaker 1: be a quixotic effort to become the district attorney and

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Speaker 1: lo and behold you one. So I'm curious, first, why

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Speaker 1: did you decide to do that back four years ago? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, the personal history of that is that I

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Speaker 1: was a very active trial lawyer defending indigent meaning broke

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Speaker 1: people in criminal matters for a long time. But I

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Speaker 1: also did civil rights work and in my civil rights work,

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Speaker 1: I usually represented broke people, black people, brown people who

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Speaker 1: had been in some way mistreated or treated illegally by police.

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Speaker 1: Though that was really kind of what I did, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I tried hard. I got good results. But

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Speaker 1: the way I felt, at age fifty six, having made

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Speaker 1: this my life's work, was that I had gotten justice

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Speaker 1: for individuals, but the entire time the system had gotten worse.

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Speaker 1: You know, being in court four and five days a week,

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Speaker 1: you don't just do your own cases. You see all

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Speaker 1: of these other cases that are happening while you wait

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Speaker 1: to do yours. And the sense I had was that

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Speaker 1: I was watching this slow motion car wreck, that the

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Speaker 1: people who were in control, we're up for that wreck,

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Speaker 1: and they were just going to keep driving into that wreck,

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Speaker 1: and that there needed to be somebody else who was

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Speaker 1: actually driving this car if we were to go a

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Speaker 1: different direction. M hm. You know it's funny, I when

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Speaker 1: you talk about the people you're representing, I mean everything

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Speaker 1: from poor black and brown folks and and poor white

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Speaker 1: folks getting busted and hurt, but also act up the

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Speaker 1: AIDS advocacy organization and move on folks on. And then

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Speaker 1: you know, were you and I met or re met.

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Speaker 1: I just remember a few years ago, the University of

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania Law School did this big conference on the War

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Speaker 1: on Drugs, and I did the opening keynote address, and

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Speaker 1: you are in the panel right after that, and you

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Speaker 1: surprised me and everybody else, but you said, you know, actually, Ethan,

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Speaker 1: you may not remember for this, but we met thirty

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Speaker 1: years ago. And it was actually back in around nine

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Speaker 1: ninety four where I was still teaching at Princeton and

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Speaker 1: had brought my class down a drug policy class, down

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Speaker 1: to Philadelphia, down to the you know, down and out

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Speaker 1: Kensington neighborhood to observe and participate on a local semi

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Speaker 1: legal I think it was needle Exchange program, and you

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Speaker 1: were the attorney representing prevention point to needle exchange program.

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Speaker 1: So I mean this going back to our earliest years

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Speaker 1: of me as an advocate, and you're working as a

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Speaker 1: public defender and lawyer. So you've really been on the

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Speaker 1: right side of these things. But let me go further

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Speaker 1: back than that. Why did you decide to become a

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Speaker 1: public defender? I mean, you're interesting, Like your mom was

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Speaker 1: a devout Christian, your dad was a secular Jew who

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Speaker 1: among other things, wrote crime novels and had among his

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Speaker 1: admirers the famous detective story writer Ray Chandler. But what

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Speaker 1: was it that caused you to say I'm going to

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Speaker 1: become a public defender back in the mid A So

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Speaker 1: when I came out of law school, I was really

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Speaker 1: fascinated by criminal justice. I've been fascinated by crime since

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Speaker 1: I was probably twelve or thirteen. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are a lot of people go home from

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Speaker 1: their day jobs and they watch crime fiction, you know,

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Speaker 1: they watch c s I, or they watch films, dramatic

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Speaker 1: films they have to do with crime. Well, I was

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Speaker 1: interested enough that I wanted to do it as a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: But coming out of law school, I was really open

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Speaker 1: to the possibility of being a prosecutor or a public defender.

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Speaker 1: I was not really interested in being a private attorney

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Speaker 1: doing this work, much more interested in being within the

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Speaker 1: public sphere, where I thought the people really were and

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Speaker 1: the activity really was. So I interviewed for both, and

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Speaker 1: I had offers from both. But what I found in

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Speaker 1: seven as I interviewed, including interviewing at the Philadelphia DA's office,

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Speaker 1: which I now run, is that I felt much more

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Speaker 1: of a connection to the public defenders. You know, I

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Speaker 1: walked out of the interview. There was humor, there was compassion,

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Speaker 1: there was grace, and I walked out of the interviews

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Speaker 1: with most to the prosecutor's offices, and it was it

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Speaker 1: was this very sort of driven approach directed at retribution,

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Speaker 1: which didn't feel right to me. So I, you know,

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Speaker 1: I chose to be a public defender, not because I

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Speaker 1: thought it was immoral to ever put somebody in jail.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that, But I chose to be a

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Speaker 1: public defender because at that time, I think that was

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Speaker 1: being on the side of justice. And it's really the

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Speaker 1: same reason why I chose to try to become a

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Speaker 1: prosecutor at age fifty six, after I've done that work

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Speaker 1: for thirty years, and one way or another, I just

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Speaker 1: felt like being on the side of justice in meant

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Speaker 1: trying to be a part of a grassroots movement for

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Speaker 1: progressive criminal justice reform that was all over the country,

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Speaker 1: a movement in which Philadelphia was wanting to participate. But

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Speaker 1: they needed somebody, you know, they needed a technician, which

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Speaker 1: is really all I am, and that's really all that.

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Speaker 1: You know, some people I admire very much, like Kim

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Speaker 1: Fox in Chicago, or Eric Gonzalez in Brooklyn, or you know,

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Speaker 1: I could go on and on, but you know, we're technicians,

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Speaker 1: were technicians for a grassroots movement that right now in

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Speaker 1: the United States has elected and re elected progressive prosecutors

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Speaker 1: in ten percent of uh, you know, all of its

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Speaker 1: voting area, by which I mean ten percent of all

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Speaker 1: voters have at this point chosen a progressive to make

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Speaker 1: decisions about criminal justice. And that number is up from

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Speaker 1: basically zero, and it's up from basically zero in a

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Speaker 1: short period of time. So it is definitely where we

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Speaker 1: are all going. Yeah, I mean, Larry, you mentioned this

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Speaker 1: broader progressive prosecutor movement, and you mentioned Kim Fox in Chicago.

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Speaker 1: There's you know, Mosley in Baltimore, There's Rachel Rawlins in Boston,

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Speaker 1: Suffolk County. So this really is a growing thing. You know.

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Speaker 1: For me, I think part of why I do what

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Speaker 1: I do is my consciousness of my own father being

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Speaker 1: born in Berlin and Hitler come into power when he

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Speaker 1: was five and having a flee Germany when he was

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Speaker 1: eleven with his family to save his life. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I was asking you before, you know, you have a

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Speaker 1: mother who's a devout Christian and a father who I

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Speaker 1: think you described just being secular and moral. But when

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Speaker 1: you look at who you are what you are, do

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Speaker 1: you see them and who they were as having played

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Speaker 1: this helping explain why Larry Krasner is who he is

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Speaker 1: in terms of both the public defense thing and the

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Speaker 1: progressive prosecution. Really easy for me to psychoanalyze you, Ethan,

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Speaker 1: but are harder to do it to myself. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: did play a role. Yes, you know, the values in

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Speaker 1: the home were more about people than they were about money.

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Speaker 1: For example, the values in the home were more about

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Speaker 1: being known for doing good things because you did good things,

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Speaker 1: then pretending you did good things. It was more about compassion,

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Speaker 1: you know that it was in some ways about competition

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Speaker 1: with other people. And the fact is, you know, because

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Speaker 1: my dad was the child of immigrants from uh the Ukraine,

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Speaker 1: there were Russian Jews, there was that, you know, being

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Speaker 1: chase out of a country with torches and pitchforks leaves

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Speaker 1: an impression. Because he and basically an entire group of

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Speaker 1: sixteen male cousins nearly all served in World War Two,

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Speaker 1: they pretty strong feelings as people who were coming from

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Speaker 1: Jewish culture, and in some cases who were religious, they

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Speaker 1: had pretty strong feelings about having one group of people

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Speaker 1: trying to exterminate them from the planet. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: you do pick up those things. But the other thing

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Speaker 1: that happened, um, there many things happened, but my father

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Speaker 1: became physically disabled later in his life and it very

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Speaker 1: much affected his ability to bring home money. And the

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Speaker 1: consequence was that we had public benefits at certain times. Right,

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Speaker 1: So when you go through that, you experienced that. You know,

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Speaker 1: I was in public schools and they made some wise choices.

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Speaker 1: So I ended up in public schools in inner city St.

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Speaker 1: Louis and public schools outside of Philadelphia that were excellent

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Speaker 1: public schools. But when you grow up under those circumstances,

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Speaker 1: you come to understand that, how do I put it,

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Speaker 1: poverty is not a flaw. And that's kind of where

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Speaker 1: this starts. I mean, I saw that either in your

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Speaker 1: book or this is a wonderful documentary Philly d a

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Speaker 1: about you and your office in the campaign and trying

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Speaker 1: to implement these changes, which I highly recommend to our listeners.

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Speaker 1: And I guess mad it's the book where you talked

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Speaker 1: about having gotten and involved and maybe even met your

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Speaker 1: wife working on access to housing services in New York,

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Speaker 1: So I could see you had that progressive orientation early on.

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Speaker 1: But let me ask you this, and if you can't

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Speaker 1: answer it, I understand. But one of the other things

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Speaker 1: that shape me was going to college and starting a

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Speaker 1: smoke weed and wondering why I was a criminal for

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Speaker 1: that or the occasional mushroom trip. Did you also have

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Speaker 1: these experiences in high school or college? I mean, were

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Speaker 1: you were you doing drugs? You're a few yars younger

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Speaker 1: than me, but this was, you know, the late seventies,

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Speaker 1: it was a pretty liberal time. What was your own

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Speaker 1: experience with this sort of illicit behavior that seemed harmful? So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I had my first beer, my first alcohol

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Speaker 1: in college. It's actually the day I arrived at college.

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Speaker 1: My uncle, who was a dean of physics, gave me

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Speaker 1: a beer. And I never smoked weed. All the way

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Speaker 1: through high school or college. I never did it. People

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Speaker 1: used to gather in my dorm room and they would

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Speaker 1: smoke weed while I was studying because they were my friends.

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Speaker 1: I had no problem with it. I thought that the

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Speaker 1: notion that this was, you know, illegal, was absurd frankly,

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Speaker 1: but I was you know, for whatever reason, maybe it's

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Speaker 1: partly just being kind of broke, but for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: it was just nothing that I did during that period

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Speaker 1: of time. Uh huh. Well listen, So you become a

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Speaker 1: public defender in the late eighties with the drug war

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Speaker 1: is just taking off like wildfire, right, and people are

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Speaker 1: getting locked up in droves and prison popiers and is

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Speaker 1: growing enormously. You make the switch to prosecutor to d

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Speaker 1: a uh in seventeen as there is a growing movement

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Speaker 1: for criminal justice reform, and there's even some other folks

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Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. I mean, the mayor is making some noises

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Speaker 1: and pushing to some in the right direction. Your your

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Speaker 1: predecessor as this your attorney had, you know, made some

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Speaker 1: indications of softening up on marijuana stuff. What was the

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Speaker 1: political climate like f I mean, how did you see

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Speaker 1: the drug war in seventeen as you were becoming chief

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Speaker 1: prosecutor of the city. You know, I had been both

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Speaker 1: a public defender for a few years in Philippi County

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Speaker 1: where there were a ton of drug prosecutions, and then

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Speaker 1: I was a federal public defender. I did actually federal

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Speaker 1: criminal work, and much of that was cases involving drugs

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Speaker 1: for twenty five years, so I had a pretty front

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Speaker 1: row seat on the war on drugs from seven on.

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Speaker 1: I thought the whole thing was a disaster and the

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Speaker 1: consequences were ridiculous. You know, you saw relatively young people

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Speaker 1: getting life sentences in federal court because they had a

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Speaker 1: couple of prior convictions of certain types, and the weight

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Speaker 1: of drugs they were involved with with fifty six other

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Speaker 1: people was high enough that they were supposed to spend

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Speaker 1: their entire lives in jail and die or become prolific rats.

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Speaker 1: And then we had to rely on the mercy of

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Speaker 1: a prosecutor to say less than life is okay judge,

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Speaker 1: while some judge, probably a surly one, acted like life

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Speaker 1: really made more sense. Right, So I had, I had

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Speaker 1: watched that whole thing, and um I came into office

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Speaker 1: and early with every intention of never prosecuting anyone again

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Speaker 1: for possession of marijuana. Some of that road was already laid.

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Speaker 1: The mayor in Philadelphia before I got into office, had

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Speaker 1: advocated for the use of a ticket, essentially a very

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Speaker 1: low level offense, which was a fine for possessing marijuana,

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Speaker 1: And so he had pushed that point with a lot

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Speaker 1: of resistance, and the d a's office previously had been

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Speaker 1: prosecuting about five to six thousand people a year for

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Speaker 1: simple possession of marijuana. We're not talking about dealing drugs.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about possessing enormous amounts that someone else

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Speaker 1: is going to deal later. We're talking about simple possession.

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Speaker 1: So by the time I went in, that was much better.

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Speaker 1: About eight of those cases were no longer being prosecuted.

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Speaker 1: Police were just giving out a ticket. We're down to

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Speaker 1: maybe a thousand to fifteen hundred marijuana possession cases a year.

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Speaker 1: We came in and said, no, we're not going to

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Speaker 1: do this anymore. This doesn't make any sense. Were we

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Speaker 1: need to deal with shootings, We need to deal with

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Speaker 1: gunpoint robberies, We need to deal with first greefelony apes,

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Speaker 1: the kind of crimes that actually tear apart society, Traumatized people,

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Speaker 1: traumatized communities. We have to deal with that. We do

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Speaker 1: not have time to mess around with a substance that

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Speaker 1: is safer for you than the beer that basically every

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Speaker 1: judge and every cop is going to consume after they

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Speaker 1: get home from work. Well beer or brown liquor. If

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Speaker 1: you want to talk about dangerous stuff, you know. So

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Speaker 1: that's what we did, and of course there was a commotion,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the same way the mayor suffered all

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Speaker 1: kinds of commotion. We had all kinds of commotion over that,

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Speaker 1: and then people adapted. Culture changes, people adapt. As we

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Speaker 1: look around right now in Philadelphia, we have a governor who,

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Speaker 1: as soon as he got elected to a second term,

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Speaker 1: started to advocate for the recreational adult use of marijuana.

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Speaker 1: We already had medical use of marijuana under limited circumstances,

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Speaker 1: but as soon as he locked in his second of

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Speaker 1: two terms, the governor started to say, yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: a good idea. We should allow recreational adult use marijuana.

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Speaker 1: We should tax the hell out of it, use the

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Speaker 1: tax for good purposes. And as I sit here right now,

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Speaker 1: Democrats want it. They're in the minority and the legislatures

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Speaker 1: to the Republicans control the legislature, and believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: Republicans want it. They can't agree on any kind of

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Speaker 1: reasonable gun regulation, they can't agree on whether people's votes

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Speaker 1: should count. But Republicans and Democrats in Pennsylvania agree there

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Speaker 1: should be recreational day use marijuana. They're just having a

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Speaker 1: different tug of war, which is that Republicans wanted all

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Speaker 1: those taxes to cut other taxes, including taxes for rich people,

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Speaker 1: and Democrats want all those taxes to do what they

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Speaker 1: did in a place like Colorado, which is they wanted

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Speaker 1: to float under funded public schools, especially under funded public

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Speaker 1: schools in places like Philadelphia where you have a high

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Speaker 1: rate of educational failure despite a lot of good teachers,

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Speaker 1: where you have investment in students that is less than

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Speaker 1: half of the investment in students in suburban areas that

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Speaker 1: are right over the city boundary, for example, the suburban

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Speaker 1: area where I was able to attend a public school.

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Speaker 1: So you know, that's how I felt at the time.

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Speaker 1: I think history is entirely on our side when it

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Speaker 1: comes to marijuana. Yeah, I mean in a way, Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: is gonna maybe move faster because you're now becoming an outlier.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just in the last six to nine months,

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Speaker 1: I think New York legalized, New Jersey legalized, Connecticut legalized,

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Speaker 1: Virginia quite surprisingly legalized you know, Delaware, Rhode Island, the edge,

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Speaker 1: Massachusetts done it. So I think the embarrassment of being

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Speaker 1: an outlier and the fact that Pennsylvania's are now going

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Speaker 1: out of state and paying taxes to neighboring states to

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Speaker 1: either weed should hopefully, you know, get the pressure up.

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Speaker 1: But I guess in a way, right, the leverage you

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Speaker 1: had in that is to basically say to the police,

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Speaker 1: We're not going to prosecute these cases anymore if you

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Speaker 1: arrest people. Is that basically right? Is that where the

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Speaker 1: leverage comes from. The leverage in Philadelphia is that we

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Speaker 1: have complete discretion about what we're going to charge or not.

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Speaker 1: There are locations where police get to determine what has charged,

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Speaker 1: but the way it works in Philadelphia is they present

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Speaker 1: to the district attorney's office their recommendation of charges and

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Speaker 1: then a packet that is essentially documents summarizing the evidence,

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Speaker 1: and then we make a decision, you know, and the

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Speaker 1: vast majority of cases they submit to us, we are

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Speaker 1: going to charge someone with many of the charge they recommend,

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Speaker 1: or maybe all the charge they recommend. But you know,

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Speaker 1: what are the beauties of being an elected district attorney

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Speaker 1: in many jurisdictions is it's an executive position where you

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Speaker 1: don't have the log role with anybody, so we get

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Speaker 1: to say yes or no, I'm going to charge this case,

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Speaker 1: yes or no. I'm going to pursue the death penalty,

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Speaker 1: yes or no. We're gonna seek a high sentence or

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Speaker 1: we're gonna seek probation. We get to make that decision unilaterally. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and more specifically, I get to make that decision unilaterally.

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Speaker 1: So there's power there. You think most people, I mean

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Speaker 1: most of the cops and prosecutors and judges in Philadelphia

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Speaker 1: would now vote for legalizing marijuana. Are we going to

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Speaker 1: count the retired ones? If you count the retired ones,

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Speaker 1: I would say no, no, But the current ones probably is.

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Speaker 1: I think that there are subgroups, maybe younger officers, probably

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Speaker 1: officers of color, who would vote for it. I think

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Speaker 1: overall they would vote against it, And to be honest,

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Speaker 1: they have a specific financial interest in voting against it

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Speaker 1: because they don't simply get paid to arrest people for

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Speaker 1: whatever it is, having your grass too long, you know,

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Speaker 1: having a turn signal on your car that has chipped.

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Speaker 1: They don't just get paid for doing that job. They

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Speaker 1: get overtime, and they get a lot of overtime for

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Speaker 1: going to court to testify when they're not on shift.

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Speaker 1: There are officers who are making more money and overtime

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Speaker 1: than they are making for their salary. I mean, honestly,

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Speaker 1: I think if they could arrest people for blue shirts.

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Speaker 1: I'm wearing a blue shirt today, some of them would

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Speaker 1: be mercenary enough to say, hey, it sounds like a

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Speaker 1: good plan. Let's arrest people for blue shirts. I want

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Speaker 1: a beach house, and they would do it. It's not Look,

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Speaker 1: it's not your average officer. There's a you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of great cops in Philly who actually do

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Speaker 1: think about issues at a level of policy and at

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Speaker 1: a level of a wholesome society. But they have a

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Speaker 1: vested financial interest, just as our public prison industry and

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Speaker 1: our private prison industry have a vested financial interest in

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Speaker 1: locking up everybody for everything forever. We'll be talking more

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Speaker 1: after we here this ad. I saw you quoted as

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Speaker 1: saying it's nice to have the power instead of the outrage.

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Speaker 1: And you said, we're taking the movements aggressive prosecutor progressive

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Speaker 1: criminal just movement inside, right, So there's real power. And

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Speaker 1: you pointed out that the district attorney is the most

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Speaker 1: powerful player in the criminal justice system, so you have

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Speaker 1: all this leverage. You've accomplished some great things around juvenile justice,

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Speaker 1: and going after bad cops and and pushing back and

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Speaker 1: all this petty bullshit arrest and all of these sorts

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Speaker 1: of things. But you're dealing with a police department, you're

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Speaker 1: dealing with judges, you're dealing with the state legislature. You're

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Speaker 1: dealing with the bail industry. That I guess has been

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Speaker 1: the fundamental tension you've had to deal with. You have

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Speaker 1: this power, You had an upfront seat for thirty years

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Speaker 1: to how powerful the d A and his full office

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Speaker 1: could be. Yet at the same time you must be

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Speaker 1: incredibly aware of how limited that power has given all

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Speaker 1: the other players. I am definitely aware of the limitations.

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Speaker 1: But let me tell you why I don't feel too

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Speaker 1: bad about it. All Right, So, we've actually been in

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Speaker 1: office now for three and a half years, and we

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Speaker 1: made clear in our campaign some of the things we

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Speaker 1: cared about. One of them was to try to take

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Speaker 1: a bite out of mass incarceration, meaning having far too

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Speaker 1: many Americans in jail. America is the most incarcerated country

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Speaker 1: in the world, which is kind of strange when you

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Speaker 1: claim to be the land of freedom, the beacon of liberty,

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Speaker 1: and Philadelphia in particular has a long history of significance

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Speaker 1: in terms of documents and historical events that are around

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Speaker 1: freedom and there are around liberty. So there's kind of

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Speaker 1: like a fundamental disconnect, right, So, what have we actually

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Speaker 1: been able to accomplish despite the resistance from the judiciary,

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Speaker 1: despite a legislature that is often, you know, looking out

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Speaker 1: for the financial interests of counties that have state prisons.

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Speaker 1: What is our actual achievement Well before the pandemic hit.

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Speaker 1: And I say that because all the statistics are off

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Speaker 1: due to the pandemic. Pandemic effectively shut down courts, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to take credit for that because I

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Speaker 1: think that would be unscientific. But before the pandemic hit,

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Speaker 1: we our administration, our d A's office, because of its

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Speaker 1: recommendations for sentencing, because of its negotiations, because of its

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Speaker 1: charging practices. We had cut future years of incarceration that

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Speaker 1: we're coming out of the court system by in just

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Speaker 1: three years and one of the most incarcerated big cities

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Speaker 1: in the United States. What about supervisional in probation and parole,

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Speaker 1: which is a closely related issue because minor violations of

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Speaker 1: probation and parole put you back in jail. Well, we

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Speaker 1: were able to cut the future years of supervisional approbation

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Speaker 1: and parole by two thirds. You know, Yes, we saw

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Speaker 1: big declines in our county jail population before the pandemic hit,

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Speaker 1: the sharpest declines that had been seen in a long

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Speaker 1: process of success going back several years to reduce it.

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Speaker 1: That tells you a little bit. But really what you

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Speaker 1: need to know is what's happening in five years and

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Speaker 1: what's happening in ten years. And what we know is

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Speaker 1: that we have cut all those future years in half

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Speaker 1: in just that period of time. That's power, Okay. It's

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Speaker 1: also power when you say we're gonna have a unit

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Speaker 1: to make sure immigrants are treated fairly and you do it.

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Speaker 1: It's also power when you do not pursue the death

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Speaker 1: penalty in any case, any new case, or any case

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Speaker 1: on appeal. That's power. It's not absolute power, but we

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Speaker 1: should not have absolute power. It is my hope that's

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Speaker 1: going to happen here is that people who are excited

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Speaker 1: enough to vote when they wouldn't vote before, because they

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Speaker 1: care about criminal justice in a way they haven't cared

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Speaker 1: about politics for a long time. It's my hope that

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Speaker 1: they'll look at the success in all these different cities,

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Speaker 1: and they won't just elect more progressive prosecutors, but they'll say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, we need to elect a progressive mayor

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Speaker 1: who's going to appoint a progressive police chief, a progressive

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Speaker 1: police commissioner. We want somebody like that police commissioner in

432
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 1: the Twin Cities who took the stand and who testified

433
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: that what his officer did was wrong, that it was

434
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: against policy, and supported the position that what one of

435
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: the people he supervised did was a crime. That's what

436
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 1: we want. So we're gonna allow to progressive mayor. And

437
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: you know what else we want. We're a little sick

438
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: of all these judges fighting what we want. We're a

439
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: little sick of being the most incarcerated country. So with that,

440
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,439
Speaker 1: and we're going to be able to collect the report

441
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: card on some of these judges, and when they come

442
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 1: up for election, if they don't have a life's history

443
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: that says they're gonna do a good job, don't vote

444
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: for him. And when they come up for retention, because

445
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: many judges who are elected come up for retention, they

446
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: come up for another term every six years or every

447
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: ten years. And we're gonna take the success that we've

448
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 1: had and putting progressive prosecutors in a position to do

449
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,360
Speaker 1: some good things. But we're gonna give them some partners.

450
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: We're gonna give them police chiefs through mayors, We're gonna

451
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: give them judiciary through paying attention and not just throwing

452
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 1: buttons for names we've never heard of. And we're gonna

453
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 1: hold our legislators accountable as well. And what you're gonna

454
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: see when that happens, when you go from progressive prosecutor

455
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: as a one point oh two progressive criminal justice partners

456
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: is a two point oh is you're gonna see sweeping

457
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 1: change all over the country, massive declines in future years

458
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: of incarceration, and you're gonna see a path over a

459
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: decade or two to actually get out of us and

460
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 1: to a much better place. Yeah. Now, it seems to

461
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: me one of the greatest threats to the continuing progress

462
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: of this movement, which we both support. Full disclosure here,

463
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: you know I do support Larry. I sent him a little,

464
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 1: you know, some money for his campaign reelection. So I'm

465
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: a huge fan and advocate. But you know, you look

466
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: at what's happening with homicide rates right in Philadelphia, in

467
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: my city of New York, and many other places in

468
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: Philadelphia ranks among the top cities in the country. I

469
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 1: don't know about the increase in homicide rate, but in

470
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: terms of the number of people, your homicide rates are

471
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 1: very high. And when people feel fearful, and I know

472
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: you're I mean I saw you on TV a few

473
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: days ago and there was a whole bunch of shootings

474
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: and killings of Philadelphia. I saw you getting emotional about

475
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 1: this stuff. We know, people, even if other crimes, even

476
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: if petty crimes are not going up, when they see

477
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: and feel that, they start to freak out. That emotional

478
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: resistance kind of bubbles up and boils up. But what

479
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: can you as the d A actually do about high

480
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,479
Speaker 1: levels of homicide? I mean, how much power do you

481
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: have to deal with that issue? Which it seems like

482
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 1: a policing issue, It seems like a power of the issue.

483
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: It seems like a lack of aging. I mean, all

484
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: these other things. What can you actually do with your powers? So,

485
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: you know, the situation that we see nationally is kind

486
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: of fascinating, and it takes us back to a narrative

487
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: that we have to shake, which is essentially that no

488
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: matter what happens, you need to be quote tough on

489
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,959
Speaker 1: crime unquote. I call it stupid on crime. But no

490
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 1: matter what happens, you need to hang them high. No

491
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: matter what happens, you need to put them in jail

492
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: and throw away the key. These are phrases that we

493
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: all recognize that we live with in the United States

494
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 1: because we've heard them for so long. So if crime

495
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 1: is coming down, and it's been coming down for thirty years,

496
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: then that's just proof if you listen to conservatives that

497
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 1: being tough on crime work. If crime is going up

498
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: after thirty years of tough on crime, well that means

499
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: we need to be tougher and logic this is called

500
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: a tautology. It basically is that no matter what happens,

501
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: we come to the same conclusion, just get tough on crime.

502
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 1: That is nonsense. The reason part of the reason that

503
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: Philadelphia has been chronically high in violence. I've been in

504
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: the area for fifty years, but let's just go back

505
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: my career, which is thirty three years now. The reason

506
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: it has been chronically high is poverty. Philadelphia is the

507
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: sixth largest city, but it's got the fourth largest police force,

508
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: and it has a politics that in many ways have

509
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: been dominated by cops ever since the cop became the

510
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: mayor of the city Philadelphia named Frank Rizzone some time ago,

511
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: with a system of policing that was brutal and racist,

512
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: that's what he was all about. And the legacy of

513
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: those essentially thirty years of quote tough on crime unquote

514
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: approaches rather than addressing poverty, has been chronically high. Violence

515
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: in the sixth largest city with the fourth largest police

516
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: departments analogus in many ways to Chicago, where you have

517
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: another outsized police department. The police department proportionately is bigger

518
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: than the population of the city. And yet in Chicago,

519
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: which does not have identical poverty problems, that's a much

520
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,959
Speaker 1: more prosperous city, but it has pockets, It has neighborhoods

521
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: where violence is quite high, where the poverty is very

522
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: similar to what we're seeing in Philadelphia. What is clear

523
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: from these two cities is that just having more police

524
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: officers and just putting an infinite amount of money into

525
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: policing doesn't solve these problems at all, and so we

526
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: have to look at something that will actually work. There

527
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: is no doubt in my mind, and there's at this

528
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: point no doubt in the minds of more than two

529
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: out of every three Philadelphias. And I say that because

530
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: that's what the vote was in May, in a showdown

531
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 1: between basically conservative approaches to prosecution of policing and our approach,

532
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: and we overwhelmingly won. There's no doubt that what people

533
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: believe in is prevention. What they believe in is serious

534
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: investment in community based organizations. And they believe in this

535
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: even in the face of record high numbers of killings

536
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: with guns and record high numbers of shootings in Philadelphia. Now,

537
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: what's happening in Philly has actually happening all over the country.

538
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: Of the fifty largest cities, the average increase in gun

539
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: violence last year was incredibly high. Philadelphia was slightly less

540
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: than that. Actually we were slightly less than that terrible

541
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: average increases. There are cities even this year where they're

542
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: experiencing a one plus increase in gun violence. Philadelphia right

543
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: now is having a terrible time. We're up about there's

544
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: one city that's at close to and it's increase in

545
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: gun violence. The important thing to recognize is many of

546
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 1: the cities with the highest increases have traditional prosecutors and

547
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: traditional approaches to policing. There is absolutely no correlation and

548
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: no connection whatsoever between the policies of these prosecutors and

549
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: what's happening in terms of the level of increase of crime.

550
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: The crime increases endemic all over the country, even in

551
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: rural areas, even in suburban areas, although to a lesser

552
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: extent as you might expect. But you know, I think

553
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: that that in many ways should illustrate for everyone that

554
00:28:55,360 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: prosecutors have very little impact on the currents of homicides.

555
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: The truth is that police have a lot less impact

556
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: on the occurrence of homicides than many of their chiefs

557
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: or their mayors would like you to think. Rudy Giuliani

558
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: didn't fix anything, and frankly, it's a good thing they

559
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: took away his law license. He never should had it.

560
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: But he didn't fix anything with illegal stopping first all

561
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: over the country. He just made it worse by breaking

562
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: relationships between communities and police, so police can't get witnesses

563
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: anymore for all kinds of cases. I do sort of

564
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: look forward to the data. Rudy Giuliani is behind bars, Larry,

565
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: But let me, I want to get into the drug

566
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: stuff for the rest of the this thing. But the

567
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: one last question on the homicide thing. You know, there's

568
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: this article that was published recently by the former judge

569
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: and now law professor Paul Cassell about the Minneapolis Effect,

570
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: and he makes the argument that if you look at

571
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: these dramatic jumps in homicides and shootings around the entire country,

572
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: that one significant explanation is that basically the cops are

573
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, saying, hey, with all the

574
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter stuff, defund the police. We're just not

575
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: going to be sticking our next out on all this

576
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: rough policing. And we're dealing with rough on men and guns,

577
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: and if you don't have our back, we know we're

578
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: gonna take it easy. And that helps explain why you

579
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: see substantial jumps. What's your response to that, to Cassell's

580
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: argument to that? You know, I actually know a little

581
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: bit about Paul Cassell. I think we went to the

582
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: same law school a couple of years apart. As best

583
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: I can tell, he's dedicated his career to uh authoritarian

584
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: approaches to policing. He spent most of his early career

585
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 1: trying to get rid of Miranda, which is laughable at

586
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: many levels. And now and now what Now it's Um,

587
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: it's the fault of Black Lives Matter that we have

588
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: poverty in major cities. It's the fault of Black Lives

589
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: matter that when black people are killed, cops can't solve

590
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: those cases. Sure, Paul, Okay, whatever you say, you don't

591
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: detect that at all in the department. I mean, if

592
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: you're asking me, do I think that there are some

593
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: bums in uh in police departments who will look for

594
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: any excuse not to work and get paid. Yeah, there are.

595
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll tell you something right now, in Philly,

596
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: we have a crisis of police officers who are gaming

597
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: the system to claim that they are injured on duty. Somehow, magically,

598
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: the Philadelphic Police Department has gone from a rate between

599
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: two and four of police officers being so injured on

600
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: duty that they cannot work to oh my goodness, what happened?

601
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: And when you start to dig into it, what you

602
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: find is that they're financially better off if they don't work.

603
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: And what you find is there's no accountability coming from

604
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: the doctors who screened these things and from the union

605
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: that has been unaccountable in Philly forever. Yeah, there are

606
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: some cops who are bumps. Okay, there are some prosecutors

607
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: who are bumps, including prosecutors in my office right now.

608
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: But the notion that we should all pander two police

609
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: officers who are paid to serve the community by making

610
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: sure no one talks about their rights too loudly, because

611
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, what if the people who are supposed

612
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: to protect us exercise right they don't have, which is

613
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: to not do the work and take the money home.

614
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I just I just don't get that. That's

615
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: called being afraid of the people who serve you, as

616
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: opposed to expecting something from the people who serve you.

617
00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: Let's take a break here and go to an add Okay, well,

618
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: let's let's get into drugs now, um a little more deeply. Obviously,

619
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: I watched that Philly DA. Virtually the first words out

620
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: of your mouth are about let's cut marijuana arrest and

621
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: let's stop even the possession arrest for small amounts of

622
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: other drugs. So you know, you get this stuff. You're

623
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: about decriminalization, You're you're doing the right thing. You're describing

624
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: what you know, mass supervision. The problem probation system is

625
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: the evil twin and mass incarceration and the drug stuff

626
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: and drug type. I mean, I really admire that. But

627
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: what I really admired is that even today, when you

628
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: talk to people in the criminal justice system about harm reduction,

629
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: the basic public health human rights, you know, pragmatic approach

630
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: dealing with drugs, a lot of criminal justice folks don't

631
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: even know harm reduction. And you provided a leadership role

632
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: when the discussion started to happen around setting up a

633
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: safe injection side or supervised injection facility or or what's

634
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: now called over those prevention centers, which for our listeners

635
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: they should know, they're basically like a needle exchange with

636
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: a back room with a nurse where people can safely

637
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: inject drugs that they're still buying on the black market.

638
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you became a powerful advocate for that and

639
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: really moved this issue forward. Why well, that goes back

640
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: to when you and you and I were both little

641
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: kids playing out there in the street. It goes back

642
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: to nineteen probably something like that, maybe early. It goes

643
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: back to a period of time when I became interested

644
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: in activists who are working around issues of HIV and

645
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: AIDS during the crisis that we all suffered at that time,

646
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: a public health crisis. The time when we had to

647
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: talk about harm reduction in terms of stopping the spread

648
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: of that virus. Look where we are now, right back

649
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: in a similar position. And because HIV and AS were

650
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: spreading so quickly among intravenous drug users, some very idealistic

651
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: people took a lot of risks and formed something called

652
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: prevention point. It wasn't a needle exchange, and yes it

653
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: was illegal in the minds of most people at the

654
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: time that that was occurring. The Attorney General of Pennsylvania,

655
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: the statewide prosecutor of Pennsylvania, was swearing he was going

656
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: to arrest them, indict them, and lock them up, which

657
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: is why I was there as a criminal defense attorney,

658
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: meeting with clients, seeing what they were doing, so that

659
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: I could understand how to defend them. The whole story

660
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: gets more ridiculous because he went to jail and they

661
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 1: didn't because he liked bribes, whatever, you know. But there

662
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: was also some good news, which is a rather centrous

663
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: mayor at the time named Ed Rendell, now a mainstay

664
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: of the Democratic National Committee, an old friend of Bill Clinton.

665
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: He understood this, and to his credit, he supported as

666
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: mayor that prevention points should exist and that it should

667
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: be normalized that we're going to give out clean needles

668
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 1: so we can stop the spread of HIV and AIDS.

669
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: And that is what has happened in Philadelphia. Prevention points

670
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: still exists. It's in a building now, it's not at

671
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: a card table anymore. It gives out millions of needles.

672
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: It hasn't ended drug addiction by any means, but there

673
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: have been waves and waves and waves of infection with

674
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: HIV and AIDS that have been prevent it as the

675
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: direct result of that kind of activity. And you know,

676
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: and in my mind, that is sort of an encapsulated

677
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: version of what harm reduction can be. Obviously, another step

678
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: in this, and I've had the good fortune to be

679
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: able to travel with a bunch of other progressive prosecutors

680
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 1: to British Columbia, to Berlin, actually to Portugal and to

681
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,439
Speaker 1: see it. But another step in this is to recognize

682
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: that when we're dealing with opioids in particular, and we're

683
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: dealing with fentanyl, which has changed the game in many

684
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: ways when it comes to fatal overdoses because it is

685
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: so toxic and it it is so frightening, and how

686
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: it's used at the street level when we're dealing with that.

687
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't escape the reality that four people

688
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: die every day in Philadelphia. Every day. I used to

689
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: say three, Now I say four. How is it possible

690
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: to say, yeah, let's not do anything. Let's just let

691
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: them die behind dumpsters by themselves, stop breathing, Let's let

692
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: their brains cook from lack of oxygen. Let's say that's

693
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: that's okay. Uh. You know, we have to prevent harm.

694
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: People cannot get into treatment reclaim their lives. They can't

695
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: do that if they die. It's really not complicated. You

696
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: have to try to keep people alive. They may not

697
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: be your children, but there's somebody's kids. M you know.

698
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I like the way that you went abroad.

699
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: I mean I think I saw you shortly after you

700
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: came back from Lisbon. A little side on this thing.

701
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: As I was prepping for this interview, I came across

702
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: the fact that your father actually co authored a report

703
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: fifty years ago whatever called Drug Trip Abroad about American

704
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: drug users living in London and Amsternam back in the seventies.

705
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: It was a funny little thing. And then thinking about

706
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: you going to these other places. But I'm curious did

707
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 1: these trips to these other places have a significant impact

708
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: on you or did they basically confirm things that you

709
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: already knew. I would say both. The book you're referring to,

710
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: Drug Trip Abroad, was actually a book that my father, who,

711
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: when he wasn't being an author, was trying to make

712
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: a living as a freelance writer. It's something that he

713
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: wrote for a couple of University of Pennsylvania professors a

714
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: very long time ago. I guess this would have been

715
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: in the mid nineties seventies probably, But um, the ideas

716
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 1: that we're talking about now are not brand new. They

717
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: were ideas that were out there quite some time ago.

718
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: You know. I think when you walk into Insight, which

719
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: is one of the locations where people who use drugs

720
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: can go to use it under the watchful eye of

721
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: someone who's going to make sure they don't overdose, or

722
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: if they do overdose, it's gonna make sure they get

723
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 1: medical treatment. Right when you go in there and you

724
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: see it, it's not this scary thing. Part of what's

725
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: difficult in the United States. They've never seen it, so

726
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: they imagine there aren't evil doctors who are coming up

727
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: to inject you when you can't even inject yourself. You know,

728
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: what you actually see when you go and looks kind

729
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: of like a hair salon. You have a whole bunch

730
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 1: of stainless steel booths that are kept clean where people

731
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: come in on a schedule. They bring the drugs that

732
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: they would otherwise use on the street behind a dumpster,

733
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: you know, in some flaphouse by themselves. They bring it

734
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: into the space and they go and they use their

735
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: drugs themselves while somebody keeps an eye on them. And

736
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: if they start to nod off, they start to fall asleep,

737
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: they start to have restricted breathing. The first thing that

738
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 1: the person who was there, who has trained the insight

739
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 1: employee will do is they'll go and they'll rub their

740
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 1: shoulders or shake their shoulders try to wake them up.

741
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: If that doesn't work, they're gonna rub their stardom to

742
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: try to wake them up. If that doesn't work, they're

743
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: gonna bring oxygen, you know, like football players use on

744
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: the sidelines in America. They're gonna bring them oxygen over

745
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: and if that is not working, and there's still a

746
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,760
Speaker 1: problem because for example, with these you know, street dealers

747
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: putting together wild mixes of who knows what and who

748
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: knows what proportions they have ingested far too much for

749
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: their system. Then there will be no lockso nar can

750
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: There will be you know, a chemical inhalent or injection

751
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: which can bring them right back by blocking the opioid receptors,

752
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: or you're gonna have an ambulance calm and take them

753
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: to the emergency room. In many ways, this is nothing

754
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: more than a lobby for the emergency room. But it

755
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: just makes sure that where it's not necessary to be

756
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: in the emergency room, we take care of it out here.

757
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: You know, people don't die in these places. Simply put.

758
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: It's like people die in the street the time, but

759
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: they don't die in supervised injection sites, or as I

760
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: call them, harm reduction centers. Some of these centers you

761
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: can actually walk upstairs and there is detoxification when you're

762
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: ready for it and when you want it. You know,

763
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: this is not just a way of saving lives, it's

764
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: also a way of reducing harm to the outside community

765
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 1: by providing services like toilets and by making sure that

766
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: you know, certain diseases are not spreading unnecessarily. But it's

767
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: also a really good way to get people into treatment.

768
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: It is a positive all around. And that's why if

769
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: you talk to cops in Vancouver, the older ones, the

770
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: ones who were there when there were so many fatalities

771
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: in the street and they had to move so many

772
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: fatalities themselves, will tell you they but some of the

773
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: younger police officers who never saw how horrible it was,

774
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: some of them don't get it. Yeah, I mean for

775
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: our listeners, you know, when Larry's talking about nobody's dying

776
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: in one of these over those prevention centers. And also

777
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: the fact that they reduce public nuisance and they've used

778
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: them that as you know, syringes being left around the neighborhood.

779
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: It's all grounded in dozens of scientific studies, peer reviewed,

780
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: published and taught journals. Larry, I'll tell you when I

781
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: was traveling around Europe at some points in visiting a

782
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: whole bunch of these safe injection sites. I went to

783
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: the one in Zurich and one of the sites was

784
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: actually on the second floor of a building where the

785
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: first store was a police station. And I asked a

786
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: few of the harm induction folks I was with, I mean,

787
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: what do you think about that? And they said, it's great.

788
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: The police are supportive of us. You know, it was

789
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: it was a different sort of context, you know, Larry Uh.

790
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, you just won this big victory and

791
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: the Democratic primary two to one. It's almost certain you'll

792
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 1: become re elected for d A. Obviously running for mayor.

793
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,479
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't say I'm gonna run from Alior

794
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 1: now because You've still gonna win your re election here.

795
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: But it is pretty clear that to be in that

796
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: position would allow you the opportunity to hire the police chief.

797
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you would not control the d AH, you

798
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: would not control the judges, but it does have the

799
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 1: capacity to address at an even bigger level the issues

800
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: and the reasons why you became a d A. Yes, well, look,

801
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: I'm a car mechanic. I'm not the only good car

802
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: mechanic out There. Are so very dedicated and and actually

803
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: very progressive people in city government now, and you know

804
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: a few of them would like to be mayor. And

805
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 1: then there's some people with a much more traditional centrist

806
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: or conservative viewpoint and want to be mayor. What I

807
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: really need is a friend to the causes we are

808
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: pursuing as mayor. What I really need is a legislature

809
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: where we have friends who are trying to do the

810
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: right thing instead of trying to fill up their state

811
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: prisons for their own economic benefit and their own political benefit.

812
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: That's what we really need. This is far too much

813
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: for any one of us to do. A lot of

814
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,720
Speaker 1: good car mechanics out there. I'm looking for my NASCAR team.

815
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: We need a whole bunch of good car mechanics. And

816
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: when we get that going, we're gonna win the race. Okay, well,

817
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: last question. That was very politic answer. But here's my

818
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: last question for you. And I know this is funny

819
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: moment in Philly, DA where you're you're being interviewed together

820
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: with your wife and there's a question to you about

821
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: what something was like, and you got us giving this

822
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: technical answer you and you describe yourself a technician, and

823
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,439
Speaker 1: your wife goes, hey, Larry, they're talking about emotion here right, Well,

824
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: here's the question. I mean, here you are on the

825
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: other side, public defender, civil wise layer for thirty years,

826
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: and now you're the chief prosecutor, and you've got to

827
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: put people behind bars, and not just people committing murders,

828
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: but you know, you've got to represent the interests of

829
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: law enforcement. Maybe there's even people your office is prosecuting

830
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: who you used to represent personally, And I want to know.

831
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I related. It's a psychoanalysis sort of question.

832
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: But when you sit back and you think, how has

833
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: Larry Krasner changed over the last four years? I mean,

834
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: your passion, your progressive sentiments are obvious their parents, You're

835
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: never giving that up. But are there subtle ways you

836
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: think in which you've evolved as a human being, or

837
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: in your viewpoints, or what tugs at your heart as

838
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: a result of these past four years in the in

839
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: the d A C. You know, I think there are

840
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: I think that I came to the office as an

841
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: experienced advocate, but I was the outsider advocate. I was

842
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,280
Speaker 1: against I was against a bad system. I was against

843
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: a bad decision. I was against a bad policy. And

844
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: you can speak in what you know, as you refer

845
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 1: to as a prophetic voice. When you're doing that, you

846
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: can be very absolutist. When you actually have to make

847
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: decisions and the clock is ticking and you know that

848
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 1: four people could die today from overdoses, that's tricky. Now

849
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: you have to be strategic. Now you have to push

850
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: it out too far. Maybe the you know, the sweeping

851
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: comment you wanted to make is when you cannot make,

852
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 1: that gets difficult. I also came with really no experience

853
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: in politics other than helping some people win. When you're

854
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: in politics, I mean, sometimes you discover how wonderful people are.

855
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: Sometimes you find out how petty they are, how actually

856
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: you have to be transactional in a way that's not

857
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: your nature because you haven't lived as a transactional person

858
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: for many, many years. You know, that's something I have

859
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: had to learn. It's something I am learning and trying

860
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: to tell the difference between the ones who are transactional

861
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 1: and need to be addressed in a certain way and

862
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: the elected leaders who actually are more transformational. They're trying

863
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: to do things and you have common ground with them.

864
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: That gets But you know, it's like anything else. I

865
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: suppose in a perfect world you could have been in

866
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 1: a position to do this thirty years ago, but the

867
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: country wasn't ready, and frankly, I wouldn't have known what

868
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: to do. It's the thirty years of actually doing this

869
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: thing that made it possible for me to try to

870
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: change this thing. You know you mentioned may or a

871
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: minute ago. Well, okay, we can take someone who actually

872
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: knows what the hell of criminal justice system is about,

873
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: and is it a position to play with it? Or

874
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: we can take that person and make him a generalist

875
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: who is dealing with all sorts of things he knows

876
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: very little about, because that is actually what mayors do,

877
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: and it's what U. S. Senators do, and it's what

878
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: presidents do. They have to walk into waters where they

879
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 1: really know nothing and they have to rely on other people.

880
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,439
Speaker 1: You know, to me, not a surprise that most people

881
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 1: dislike politicians because they think that they're not so concerned

882
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: about the issue. They're more concerned about their own advancement.

883
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: They're happy to say two things at the same time, etcetera.

884
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: I feel pretty comfortable being in a position where I

885
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: know something about the topic from thirty years of being

886
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: at it. I have a short runway when I can

887
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: try to fix it, and hopefully I can gather some

888
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: friends for this cause and then I can get out

889
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: of the way and they can continue to make progress. It's,

890
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: you know, I don't really have enough years ahead of

891
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: me to try to change in all sorts of profound ways,

892
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: but I'll try to change fast enough to get something done. Well, Larry,

893
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: you know, I see progressive prosecutors around the country facing

894
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: re election challenges and all that, and your two to

895
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: one victory in the primary not long ago was just inspiring.

896
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: It seems like a vote of confidence from people in Philadelphia.

897
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: Uh so, I hope that bodes well. And quite frankly,

898
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: what you're doing. I mean, you really are one of

899
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: my heroes out there, so I so much appreciate it.

900
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: I wish you all the best of luck and four

901
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: more years of really changing the city as best you

902
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: can and providing some forms of leadership for the rest

903
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: of the country. Thanks so much for being on Psychoactive

904
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: with me. You are too kind. Ethan. You're my hero too.

905
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: Actually you're my hero first, but okay, well listen, thanks

906
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: a lot, really appreciate it. Psychoactive is a production of

907
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me

908
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 1: Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Katcha Kumkova and Ben Cabrick.

909
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus

910
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: and Darren Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, Alice Williams and Matt

911
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: Frederick for iHeart Radio, and me Ethan Nadelman Our music

912
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 1: is by Ari Belusian and a special thanks to a

913
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 1: Vivit Brio, Sef Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beatty. If you'd

914
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: like to share your own stories, comments or ideas, please

915
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 1: leave us a message at eight three three seven seven

916
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: nine sixty. That's one eight three three Psycho zero. You

917
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: can also email us as psychoactive at protozoa dot com

918
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: or find me on Twitter at Ethan Nadelman. And if

919
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: you couldn't keep track of all this, find the information

920
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: in the show notes. Tune in next time for my

921
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,720
Speaker 1: conversation with Patrick rad and Kief, whose recent book Empire

922
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: Sane exposes how the opioid crisis really got going. So, Patrick,

923
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: I mean OxyContin hits the market roughly seven or so.

924
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: What was so special about it? So, OxyContin was a

925
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: powerful opioid pain killer. It's released in ninety six. It

926
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: was pure oxycodone, which is a very strong opioid, but

927
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: with a special coating which allowed it to disperse into

928
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: your blood stream slowly over the course of a number

929
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: of hours. And so what this meant is that you

930
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 1: can have quite big doses and you start to see

931
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: problems almost right away. People are abusing OxyContin by crushing

932
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: the pills, and you can thereby kind of override that

933
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: slow release mechanism and get the full dose all at once.

934
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: But people are also in a doctor's care just finding

935
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: that they're becoming addicted to the drugs. Subscribe to Cycleactive

936
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: now see it an't miss it.