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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal.

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Speaker 2: Here, independent media just played a truly massive role in

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Speaker 2: this election, and we are so excited about what that

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Speaker 2: means for the future of the show.

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Speaker 3: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 3: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 3: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 2: you'll access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, and

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Speaker 2: all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

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Speaker 3: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 3: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 3: dot com.

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Speaker 1: All right, good morning, and welcome to Breaking Points.

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Speaker 4: That's right, that's Tuesday.

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Speaker 5: I guess so we have to be breaking points hiding Ryan, I.

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Speaker 1: Wis should just all be breaking points? Right? Maybe just

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Speaker 1: wrap it all up?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess it's time.

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Speaker 5: So we're just making major decisions with that, Saga and Crystal.

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Speaker 6: So that's the time to make them exactly. So today

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Speaker 6: we're going to have my drop site colleague Jeremy Skahele

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Speaker 6: on the show to talk about the latest between and

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Speaker 6: Gaza and Yemen and Syria and Lemon and all of

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Speaker 6: which they are bombing. Jeremy just returned from a major

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Speaker 6: interview with Osama Hamdan, who's a senior political figure at Hamas,

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Speaker 6: as well as a bunch of other background interviews with

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Speaker 6: other Hamas.

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Speaker 1: Officials, that he can and he can and he can.

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Speaker 6: Sketch out kind of where where they're feeling, what they're

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Speaker 6: you know, where they're at in the negotiations. As Israel's

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Speaker 6: threatening to literally quote flatten Gaza, uh, Donald Trump is

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Speaker 6: promising to bring make Hollywood great again. Hollywood's kind of

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Speaker 6: panicked tariff that he's gonna We're going to figure out

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Speaker 6: what it means to tear off a movie.

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Speaker 4: Yes, we are going to figure it out.

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Speaker 5: Actually, well, I mean we who knows whether we'll figure

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Speaker 5: it out, but the Trump administration is trying to figure

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Speaker 5: it out at this very moment, and maybe they'll learn

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Speaker 5: that there's really no good way to do it and

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Speaker 5: quietly drop this news. But Trump's made this announcement on Sunday.

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Speaker 5: Hollywood was in panic all day yesterday also trying to

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Speaker 5: figure out what it meant.

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Speaker 4: So we will have updates on that.

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Speaker 6: When you promise to help someone and they panic at

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Speaker 6: the thought, but that's got to be kind of a

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Speaker 6: nod feeling.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well on some one did.

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Speaker 1: He did kind of step back a little. He's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to help.

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Speaker 4: Well they yeah, I mean, we'll get into all of it.

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Speaker 5: Then. We also have a former Greek finance minister, Janis

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Speaker 5: Farah Fucus, who's going to join us to go through

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Speaker 5: some of the latest on tariffs.

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Speaker 6: If you don't you guys don't know Yannis. He's amazing.

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Speaker 6: It's going to be a fun one.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Oh my gosh, he's he's super interesting. So good

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Speaker 5: time to talk to him. We're going to be discussing

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Speaker 5: a little bit of from Bill Maher's panel last week,

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Speaker 5: there was Kevin McCarthy talking about how AOC and Bernie

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Speaker 5: are really the future of the party. So there's a

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Speaker 5: news about AOC in the Oversight Committee. There's all kinds

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Speaker 5: of fun stuff to get into.

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Speaker 6: And Brian Kemp announced that he's not going to run

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Speaker 6: for Senate, which immediately has the asof for president crowd. Yes,

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Speaker 6: just wondering, you know, just basically measuring the drapes at

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Speaker 6: sixteen hundred Pennsylvania for president osof at they to go, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Osof Nation and Rise Up Gain a Function Research Executive

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Speaker 5: was signed yesterday so by Donald Trump. So we'll break

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Speaker 5: down all of that, and then Ryan, we have a guest,

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Speaker 5: a guest who's going to talk about some developments in

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Speaker 5: the case that we've covered before.

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Speaker 6: Yes, So, Henry McKean Shapiro was one of the protesters

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Speaker 6: arrested by a G Dana Nessel in Michigan, spent four

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Speaker 6: days in jail yesterday with a handful of others, had

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Speaker 6: his charges dropped.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about.

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Speaker 6: What those charges were, where they stemmed from, why they

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Speaker 6: were dropped, and we're going to be joined by Henry

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Speaker 6: to talk about what, you know, what his experience was

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Speaker 6: like behind bars, and you know what he was told

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Speaker 6: he was arrested for, because it does appear that these

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Speaker 6: people were arrested for nothing other than protesting. Like no,

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Speaker 6: there are no no, no allegations of actual crimes.

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Speaker 5: Yea. And just as a heads up, by the way,

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Speaker 5: we started a little bit late today. Ryan has kids

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Speaker 5: to take care of it. I assume they're the.

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Speaker 1: Ones my wife's yes, exactly. You like that? Which handy

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Speaker 1: like better?

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Speaker 4: I mean the colorful one obviously that your daughters of that.

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Speaker 7: They did.

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Speaker 1: They've started a nail salon in our.

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Speaker 4: House whoa okay capitalism.

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Speaker 6: Called Sleigh Nails. So I was one of their first customers.

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Speaker 6: But yes, my wife's still recovering from surgery. So I'm

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Speaker 6: just helping get the kids out to school. So when

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Speaker 6: i'm when I am co hosting this weekend next will

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Speaker 6: be a little bit later than normal. We're often a

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Speaker 6: little bit later than normal. This time we have an

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Speaker 6: actual excuse.

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Speaker 5: Yes, well it's you know, whatever we can do to

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Speaker 5: get our fix of Ryan Grim.

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Speaker 1: There you go, we will do it.

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Speaker 6: Let's they started to chip, Yeah, I need to go

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Speaker 6: back to slate slay nails, and do.

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Speaker 4: You get a discount?

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Speaker 6: Well, and I didn't let them put the thing on

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Speaker 6: this it would help them stay longler.

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is good.

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Speaker 6: I didn't pay anything for it, so I don't know

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Speaker 6: if that's a discount or not.

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Speaker 4: I guess you can go back.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they've thought about their business model very deeply.

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Speaker 4: Okay, well maybe it should become part of drops.

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Speaker 1: The don't pay for the inputs.

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Speaker 4: This could be a thing. So I don't know, we'll see.

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Speaker 1: They don't really have to charge, Well.

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Speaker 5: Let's bring Jeremy and speaking of drop sit, let's go

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Speaker 5: ahead and bring Jeremy in to hear from him about

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Speaker 5: his recent interview with Hamas.

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Speaker 1: Joining us to discuss all.

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Speaker 6: This is my drop site colleague, Jeremy scahe who just

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Speaker 6: returned from an interview with senior political Hamas figure Osama

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Speaker 6: Hamden and others.

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Speaker 1: Jeremy, thank you so much for being here today.

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Speaker 7: Good to be with you guys.

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Speaker 1: And so let's put a four up on the screen

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Speaker 1: to start.

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Speaker 6: This is the first piece that you've rolled out from

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Speaker 6: this interview, this very wide ranging interview with Osama Hamden.

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Speaker 6: Tell us what your kind of main takeaway was from

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Speaker 6: this as it relates to Israel's most recent demand that

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Speaker 6: Hamas needs to disarm within greet to disarm within the

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Speaker 6: next week, return all of the hostages, or else it's

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Speaker 6: going to quote Flatten Gaza.

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Speaker 8: I mean, Ryan.

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Speaker 9: I think the first thing to be said is that

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Speaker 9: over the past eighteen months there has been almost no

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Speaker 9: obstintive interviewing of leaders of Hamas or other Palestinian resistance

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Speaker 9: factions by Western news organizations. It's not that they're not interviewed,

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Speaker 9: it happens CNN has had interviews, NBC has had interviews,

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Speaker 9: But often what happens is that you have one of

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Speaker 9: two things unfold. Either it's a very short interview responding

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Speaker 9: to something that the United States has said or something

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Speaker 9: that Israel has said, or it's an interview where it's

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Speaker 9: just entirely intended to be a reltigation of the events

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Speaker 9: of October seventh. And one of the things that we've

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Speaker 9: tried to do at drop site is to say, this

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Speaker 9: is journalistic malpractice not to understand the perspective of the

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Speaker 9: leadership of HAMAS or Palestinian Islamic Jihad, or any Palestinian

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Speaker 9: leaders who are at the center of what is a

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Speaker 9: US fact Israeli war of annihilation. So that's the spirit

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Speaker 9: in which we've been conducting these interviews. Now, Osama Hamdan

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Speaker 9: is perhaps one of the most well known leaders within

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Speaker 9: HAMAS because he was based in Lebanon when the Israeli

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Speaker 9: war began in October of twenty twenty three. He was

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Speaker 9: one of the few officials that was actually in a

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Speaker 9: country where Hamas was allowed to publicly hold press conferences,

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Speaker 9: and so he became a very well known figure in

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Speaker 9: the Arabic language media. He's been a member of HAMAS

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Speaker 9: since nineteen ninety two, just a few years after the

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Speaker 9: organization was founded. He was the former head of its

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Speaker 9: operations in Iran, former head of its operations in Lebanon,

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Speaker 9: and was the former head of its international relations department.

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Speaker 9: He's actually a chemist by training, a very very well

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Speaker 9: educated guy who speaks excellent English, and so I sat

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Speaker 9: down with him for on the record about a ninety

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Speaker 9: minute interview, but I did spend several hours meeting with

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Speaker 9: osamaham Dan and other senior leaders within HAMAS. So part

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Speaker 9: of what we can talk about today is what was

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Speaker 9: said on the record, and then I can give you

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Speaker 9: some texture of the broader perspective of people. I haven't

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Speaker 9: spoken about this yet, so this will be the first

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Speaker 9: time I kind of go through some of what I've heard.

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Speaker 9: The main issue that you're raising, Ryan Hamas has now

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Speaker 9: staked out a very clear position that it hasn't in

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Speaker 9: such a clear way in the past eighteen months. And

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Speaker 9: what Osama Hamdan told me is that HAMAS is absolutely

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Speaker 9: not going to agree to any more short term truces

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Speaker 9: unless there is a clear path back to one of

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Speaker 9: two places, either back to the original framework of the

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Speaker 9: January ceasefire deal that was brokered by the United States,

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Speaker 9: Qatar and Egypt. That deal, which Israel blew up after

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Speaker 9: the first for forty two day phase, imposed this full

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Speaker 9: spectrum blockade on Gaza. No food, no medicine, no fuel.

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Speaker 9: Nothing has entered the Gaza strip in the past two months,

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Speaker 9: and then on March eighteenth, Israel starts scorched earth bombing

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Speaker 9: Gaza again, killing more than four hundred people in the

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Speaker 9: opening night. Since then, twenty four hundred Palestinians have been killed,

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Speaker 9: the majority of them women and children. Horrifying attacks too,

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Speaker 9: burning people alive, intents use so called suicide drones to

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Speaker 9: attack camps for displaced people. And what Hamas is saying

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Speaker 9: is we either are going to go back to that

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Speaker 9: framework and the second phase of that framework, which Israel

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Speaker 9: wanted to avoid getting into, said that there would be

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Speaker 9: a total withdrawal of all Israeli forces and that there

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Speaker 9: would be technical negotiations moving toward a permanent ceasefire followed

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Speaker 9: then by a full reconstruction of the Gaza strips. So

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Speaker 9: either we go back to that or we go to

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Speaker 9: an alternative arrangement which also has a very clear path

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Speaker 9: to the end of the war full Israeli withdrawal and reconstruction.

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Speaker 9: Hamas has said, we have a different proposal that we

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Speaker 9: want to put forward in response to Israel, and that

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Speaker 9: is what is called an Arabic ahudna, which means a

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Speaker 9: long term truce. And so Osamahamdan said they are offering

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Speaker 9: Israel a truce of five to seven years, the immediate

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Speaker 9: release of all Israeli captives living and dead, and an

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Speaker 9: internationally guaranteed agreement that Hamas and other Palastinian resistance factions

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Speaker 9: are not going to engage in any offensive operations against Israel,

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Speaker 9: and that they are interested in long term stability and

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Speaker 9: peace and an ability to rebuild Gaza. So they said

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Speaker 9: though that no matter what the deal is, they are

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Speaker 9: not going to lay down their weapons. They said, it's

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Speaker 9: not just a red line, it's a million red lines.

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Speaker 9: They said that laying down their weapons would be tantamount

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Speaker 9: to capitulating and surrendering, and once they surrender, then they're

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Speaker 9: at the will of the occupier. So this was what

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Speaker 9: I believe the clearest on the record statement that we've

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Speaker 9: gotten to date from Hamas that they will not accept

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Speaker 9: any of the proposals that have been put forward by

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Speaker 9: the United States or Israel that do not include a

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Speaker 9: clear path to full Israeli withdrawal, and they will absolutely

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Speaker 9: not agree to hand in their weapons under any circumstances.

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Speaker 5: Jeremy, one of the interesting things that stood out to

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Speaker 5: me from your report is that they actually all of that,

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Speaker 5: and also they feel obligated not to put their weapons down, right,

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Speaker 5: could you tell us more about that part of the conversation.

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Speaker 5: I mean, as I understood it, it was they say

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Speaker 5: it as an obligation to continue going not just sort

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Speaker 5: of the practical thing that's best for them, but also

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Speaker 5: something that they must do to keep going forward.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, it's an important question, Emily. You know, let's remember

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Speaker 9: that oftentimes when events in Gaza are discussed in the

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Speaker 9: broader Western media or the Israeli media, the story begins

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Speaker 9: on October seventh with Hamas's attacks and what Hamas calls

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Speaker 9: Operation al Axa flood. But this is actually a seventy

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Speaker 9: six year history. I mean, you could go all the

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Speaker 9: way back to the nineteen thirties and the Palestinians resisting

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Speaker 9: British occupation.

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Speaker 8: But let's say that.

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Speaker 9: The dominant narrative or the dominant historical arc here begins

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Speaker 9: in nineteen forty seven forty eight with the Knakba, which

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Speaker 9: is when the United States and European powers stole the

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Speaker 9: land from Palestinians and established a state primarily for Europeans

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Speaker 9: that were victims of the Holocaust or were at jeopardy

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Speaker 9: of being killed during the Holocaust. And so that state

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Speaker 9: was established. And the idea at the time that was

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Speaker 9: promoted by Zionists and also the West was that it

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Speaker 9: was a people without a land for a land without

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Speaker 9: a people. Well, there were a people there, and they

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Speaker 9: were called the Palestinian people, and in fact there were

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Speaker 9: Muslims and Jews living in relative peace on that land

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Speaker 9: until the establishment of the.

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Speaker 8: State of Israel.

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Speaker 9: So the perspective from the Palestinian side, and this is

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Speaker 9: not just Hamas. I spoke with Palestinian leaders who are

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Speaker 9: not even members of armed resistance factions, who will say

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Speaker 9: that every time the Palestinians have agreed to lay down

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Speaker 9: their weapons that they have then just been massacred and

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Speaker 9: wiped out. So it's not just about a strategic position

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Speaker 9: that Hamas is taking. They, for instance, with Samahamdan, said look,

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Speaker 9: we can look at the example of the North of

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Speaker 9: Ireland when the Provisional IRA decommissioned itself and handed in

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Speaker 9: its weapons. I was part of a many years long

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Speaker 9: process and it was agreed to by both sides. Hamden

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Speaker 9: said to me, Look this business about storing our weapons temporarily,

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Speaker 9: He said, first of all, that's just a media story.

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Speaker 9: No one has ever seriously raised that with us. But

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Speaker 9: are they going to tell the Israelis to store their weapons.

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Speaker 9: Who's going to monitor the Israelis? Because every time we

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Speaker 9: have a ceasefire, they continue to bomb us. So I

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Speaker 9: think it's very clear. And the issue of armed resistance

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Speaker 9: remains one of the most popular position points in all

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Speaker 9: of historic Palestine, not just in Gaza. The right of

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Speaker 9: Palestinians to use armed resistance against an occupation and apartheid

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Speaker 9: state that has been repeatedly condemned under international law, by

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Speaker 9: world courts and by every major human rights organization in

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Speaker 9: the world. They believe if they lay down their weapons,

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Speaker 9: the cause of Palestinian statehood and liberation is totally dead.

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Speaker 6: So it's put up a two briefly because this references

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Speaker 6: this is an Axios News report about the flattening of

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Speaker 6: Gaza that they're threatening if there's no deal by the

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Speaker 6: time Trump makes his upcoming trip to the region. And

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Speaker 6: you can add a three as well. Here's a kind

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Speaker 6: of map that's been that's been circulating that is where

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Speaker 6: they're suggesting basically, they're going to take upwards of two

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Speaker 6: million Palestinians move them into a tiny quote unquote humanitarian zone.

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Speaker 6: And they don't really say what they're going to do

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Speaker 6: next beyond you know, invade, occupy, and hold the ground

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Speaker 6: rather than kind of move in and move back out,

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Speaker 6: which allowed then you know, Hamas to move back in

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Speaker 6: after the after the IDF would move out. And so

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Speaker 6: Hamas has this proposal, this counterproposal of a five to

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Speaker 6: seven year truce. Donald Trump likes to talk about cards.

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Speaker 6: You know, you don't have any cards. Who has the cards?

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Speaker 6: What are the cards that from your reporting that Hamas

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Speaker 6: has has left to play against against Israel? Like what

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Speaker 6: what what makes it so that this will this is

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Speaker 6: a serious counterbules that Israel needs to take seriously. And

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Speaker 6: from the Israeli side, you know, they're talking about calling

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Speaker 6: up tens of thousands of reservists.

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Speaker 1: Do they have the cards?

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Speaker 6: They do they have the ability to carry out this

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Speaker 6: invasion and long term occupation and complete ethnic cleansing that

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Speaker 6: they're suggesting they're going to carry out.

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Speaker 9: I mean, there's a there's a technical answer to your question,

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Speaker 9: and then there's a much bigger answer to your question.

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Speaker 9: First the technical answer, anyone you speak to from a

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Speaker 9: Palestinian resistance faction that is holding captives Israeli captives inside

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Speaker 9: of Gaza will say, this is our only card right

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Speaker 9: now that we have. And so when the Israelis propose

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Speaker 9: short term truces with no clear path to an end

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Speaker 9: to the war or an Israeli withdrawal, and they try,

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Speaker 9: for instance, to get half of the living Israeli captives

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Speaker 9: out in one fell swoop hamas Palestinian Islamic jihad look

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Speaker 9: at that and they say, this is a death trap

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Speaker 9: for us. From their perspective, they believe that they have

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Speaker 9: kept as many Israeli captives alive as Israel has been

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Speaker 9: killing them with its own bombings. We don't know the fate,

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Speaker 9: for instance, of American citizen Aidan Alexander, who was in

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Speaker 9: the Israeli military when he was taken by Palestinian fighters

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Speaker 9: on October seventh, twenty twenty three, Hamas's arm duing Casambragades

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Speaker 9: lost touch with him some weeks ago after an Israeli airstrike,

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Speaker 9: and I was told by two senior Hamas officials that

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Speaker 9: they still do not know his fate. So from the

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Speaker 9: perspective of Palestinian resistance movements, their only card in these

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Speaker 9: negotiations right now is the fact that they are holding

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Speaker 9: Israeli captives. In the bigger picture, though, they feel that

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Speaker 9: they have a moral and a legal card, and also

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Speaker 9: a very strong card in the region, and that is

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Speaker 9: that international resolution after international resolution has declared Israel's occupation illegal.

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Speaker 9: You have a genocide proceeding that is going forward at

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Speaker 9: the International Court of Justice, and you have Arab regimes,

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Speaker 9: anti democratic Arab regimes that are watching their very nervously

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Speaker 9: the events on the ground unfold. As Netanyahu expands Israel's

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Speaker 9: attacks across the region. Public anger is growing inside the

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Speaker 9: capitals and borders of many Arab nation states, and we

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Speaker 9: could be at the beginning of a period where we

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Speaker 9: start to see potentially major revolts happening internally in Arab

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Speaker 9: countries against their rulers, against their governments, in part because

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Speaker 9: they have stood silently by as the Palestinians have been

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Speaker 9: subjected to genocide or because they've normalized relations with Israel

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Speaker 9: under the auspices of Donald Trump's Abraham Accords, so that

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Speaker 9: the Palestinians are great students of history. And one thing

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Speaker 9: I just want to say parenthetically, every time I speak

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Speaker 9: to an official from one of these Palestinian resistance.

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Speaker 8: Movements, it's remarkable.

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Speaker 9: They are doctors, their lawyers, their Islamic scholars, their veterinarians,

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Speaker 9: their engineers.

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Speaker 8: Osama Hamdan himself is a chemist.

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Speaker 9: Several of them have been educated in Western and countries,

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Speaker 9: including the United States. The portrayal of them, you can

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Speaker 9: think what you want about their positions, their policies, their actions,

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Speaker 9: but the portrayal of these individuals as cartoonish villains who

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Speaker 9: are interested in killing Jewish people because they're Jewish, is

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Speaker 9: so just clearly false and part of what I was told.

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Speaker 9: And we could talk about the details of this. Ryan

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Speaker 9: and Emily, you know, I met with both Hamas officials

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Speaker 9: that led the talks with Adam Bohler, who was Donald

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Speaker 9: Trump's special envoy on hostages. One thing I found interesting

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Speaker 9: is they didn't know that he had been at Jared

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Speaker 9: Kushner's roommate, or that he's a personal friend of the

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Speaker 9: Trump family. And when I shared that, they said, well,

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Speaker 9: that makes sense why he's still around, because Israel tried

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Speaker 9: to destroy Adam Bohler after he made the mistake of

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Speaker 9: just saying that he was surprised at the kind of

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Speaker 9: interactions that he had with Hamas. But they described to

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Speaker 9: me very cordial, friendly, at times diplomatic meeting with Adam Bohler.

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Speaker 9: They said that Bohler asked a lot of probing questions,

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Speaker 9: not just about the current political situation or the situation

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Speaker 9: from October seventh forward, but that he seemed truly interested

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Speaker 9: in understanding the historical perspective of the Palestinians. And they

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Speaker 9: said he just kept remarking on how they are so

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Speaker 9: different than they seem from the portrayal that he had read.

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Speaker 9: And what they told me is that you know, they

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Speaker 9: had these good meetings with Bohler. It wasn't just about

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Speaker 9: the American captives that are being held. It was about

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Speaker 9: a broader political solution. The Israelis go nuts where they

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Speaker 9: learn that these direct talks had happened and that Bohler

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Speaker 9: is out there in public saying on American television and

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Speaker 9: Israeli television that Hamas has proposed a multi year piece

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Speaker 9: deal with Israel. Ron Dermer was just like yanking his

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Speaker 9: hair out. Met Yahoo's political hit man who's in charge

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Speaker 9: of the negotiations now, and they said, so, you know,

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Speaker 9: the Americans are subjected to this thing where Adam Bohler

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Speaker 9: is now being smeared and targeted for having the audacity

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Speaker 9: to say some basic civil things orss about Hamas.

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Speaker 8: But what happened, Ryan is.

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Speaker 9: That there was supposed to be a subsequent meeting directly

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Speaker 9: with Steve Whitcoff, who is Donald Trump's the top envoy

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Speaker 9: negotiating all of these deals with not just with Gaza

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Speaker 9: but also Ukraine. They were going to have direct talks

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Speaker 9: with Steve Whitcoff, and Hamas was confident that the way

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Speaker 9: the dialogue was going that the Americans were actually understanding

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Speaker 9: the position and understanding that Hamas did in fact have

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Speaker 9: some flexibility in its position. And Hamden said he believes

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Speaker 9: that part of the reason why Israel assassinated Ismailhaniah, the

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Speaker 9: former political leader of Hamas, and has been assassinating others,

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Speaker 9: is because Israel doesn't want anyone capable of actually speaking

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Speaker 9: with the United States to be alive to do so.

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Speaker 5: This gets to the question Ryan was asking about the

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Speaker 5: cards that Israel has a clip here of Donald Trump

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Speaker 5: yesterday being asked about some of this.

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Speaker 4: We can go ahead and roll a one.

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Speaker 10: Now, help the people of Gaza get some food. People

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Speaker 10: are starving, and we're going to help them get some food.

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Speaker 10: A lot of people are making it very very bad.

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Speaker 8: What do you if you look.

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Speaker 10: Hamas is making it impossible because they're taking everything this

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Speaker 10: brought in.

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Speaker 8: But we're going to help the.

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Speaker 10: People of Gaza because they're being treated very badly by Hamas.

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Speaker 8: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 5: Hostage families, we're protesting that Yahoo's decision yesterday as well.

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Speaker 5: So Jeremy, can you tell us what you make of

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Speaker 5: the last twenty four hours after conversations about all of

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Speaker 5: this with the other side.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, first of all, you know, either Donald

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Speaker 9: Trump is lying or he's being intentionally fed bad information.

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Speaker 9: I mean, you can talk to anti Hamas people involved

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Speaker 9: with international aid on the ground and they'll tell you

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Speaker 9: that it is entirely false that there is any significant

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Speaker 9: amount of aid that is being stolen or commandeered by Hamas.

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Speaker 9: In fact, when private gangs that many Palestinians suspect are

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Speaker 9: in some way or another collaborating with Israel have been

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Speaker 9: trying to loot supplies of aid when the civil police force,

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Speaker 9: this is not casambragades, but when the civil police force

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Speaker 9: in Gaza tries to respond to this looting, Israel has

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Speaker 9: then attacked the police who are trying to prevent the

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Speaker 9: looting from happening. And of course, you know, there were

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Speaker 9: public there were executions recently of people that were involved

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Speaker 9: in looting, and people made a big deal about this

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Speaker 9: and it was portrayed as you know, Hamas is executing

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Speaker 9: Palestinians who are just trying to get food. The reality

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Speaker 9: on the ground is that some of the most powerful

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Speaker 9: and influential families in Gaza were demanding that somebody somewhere

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Speaker 9: take action to stop the looting of what little aid

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Speaker 9: is left inside of the Gaza strip.

440
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 8: So, you know, we should be.

441
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 9: Reporting accurately and factually on these matters and not, you know,

442
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 9: not falling into this trap of looking for every incendiary

443
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 9: story that we can hype and it turns out that

444
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 9: it's actually not even based on something that is fully true.

445
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,719
Speaker 9: On this issue that Trump is raising them. I'll tell

446
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 9: you something that I learned in my reporting. A few

447
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 9: weeks ago, the Israelis approached My sources told me the

448
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 9: United Nations, and they tried to get the United Nations

449
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 9: to agree to take charge of distributing aid on that

450
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 9: Israel would send in. But Israel had a long list

451
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 9: of conditions about how many calories could be in each packet,

452
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 9: about how who could receive the aid, About the kind

453
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 9: of security checks that Palestinians would be subjected to if

454
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 9: they wanted to receive aid, about the kind of checkpoints

455
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 9: they would have to pass through and the distances they

456
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 9: would have to travel. And the United Nations told Israel,

457
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 9: We're not going to participate in that because it's weaponizing

458
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 9: the use of food for crimes of war. So then

459
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 9: the Israelis go to international aid organizations. Now, I'm told

460
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 9: that some aid organizations initially were considering going along with

461
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 9: Israel's plan, in part because they felt that the situation

462
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 9: was so dire that it was a compromise to make.

463
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 9: Other aid organizations then looked at what Israel's terms were

464
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 9: and said, absolutely not. These are de facto internment conditions.

465
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 9: Those that's a direct quote from a letter signed by

466
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 9: twenty aid organizations. So these international aid organizations said we

467
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 9: won't participate in weaponizing food for Israel's war aims. So

468
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 9: what Israel is now left with and Trump is referring to,

469
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 9: is that they've come up with a plan. They've already

470
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 9: divided Gaza into three sections. With these two massive corridors,

471
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 9: is they're essentially going to try to push as much

472
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 9: of the Palestinian population toward the south as possible into Rafa,

473
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 9: which basically doesn't exist as anything vaguely resembling a city anymore.

474
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 9: They're going to work with potentially an American security company

475
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 9: and others, and they're going to force Palestinians to go

476
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 9: through extensive security checks just to get some food to eat.

477
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 9: So it now is the case that Israel in the

478
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 9: United States seem to be trying to engage in a

479
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 9: propaganda campaign that also weaponizes food as a tool of

480
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 9: war in an effort to say, oh, look, we're helping

481
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 9: the starving Palestinians. This is a way to avoid having

482
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 9: to make an actual deal that would bring some peace

483
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 9: and stability and would halt this genocide.

484
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 6: And in your interview, Hamdan responded to the Egyptian proposal,

485
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 6: which he rejected out of hand, which effectively, you know,

486
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 6: required you know, Hamas to to fully disarm. You're all

487
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 6: saying that there's they're willing to they're willing to move,

488
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 6: you know, and they're willing to make some concessions. So

489
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 6: what would be the concessions that Hamas is willing to

490
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 6: make in order to you know, get to this five

491
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 6: to seven? Your truth is not saying that there would

492
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 6: be no offensive operations. Obviously that's that's a concession as well,

493
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 6: because up to today there's state of positions. They will continue,

494
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 6: you know, carrying out offensive operations against Israel until they

495
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 6: say they won't. So that alone is one how would

496
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 6: they how would they allow that to be internationally guaranteed

497
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 6: while also maintaining you know, their weapons.

498
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 9: So one thing on this issue of offensive you know,

499
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 9: Hamas would say all of their operations are defensive because

500
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 9: Israel is an illegitimate, illegal, uh you know, uh, occupying power.

501
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 8: So you know, just to be clear, that's their position.

502
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 6: Well, does that undercut their promise then if they're because

503
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 6: what Israel wants is them not to like do another

504
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 6: October seventh yeah.

505
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 9: I mean, they're not playing like semantics here. I think

506
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 9: what they're saying is, we're not going to attack Israel

507
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 9: unless we are directly attacked militarily. Like they're not going

508
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 9: to launch an operation that in the existential sense of

509
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 9: it is defensive in nature from their perspective.

510
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 8: But it's an interesting question.

511
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 9: First of all, let me say this, what I was

512
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 9: told by Hamas officials is don't we don't actually want

513
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 9: to be the government of Gaza. We won democratic elections

514
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 9: in two thousand and six, not just in Gaza, but

515
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 9: in all of the Palestinian territories. Ismail Jania was supposed

516
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 9: to be the prime minister of all Palestinian territories, not

517
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 9: just Gaza. A civil war then breaks out between Mahmuda

518
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 9: Bassa's FATA party and Hamas in Gaza in two thousand

519
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 9: and seven. That results in an effective split of the

520
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 9: Palestinian government where you have a BOSS and FATA controlling

521
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 9: the occupied West Bank, and then you had Gaza controlled Hamas.

522
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 9: The United States and other Western countries immediately impose sanctions

523
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 9: and Israel imposes a blockade on Gaza. So the place

524
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 9: has been being strangled ever since then. There hasn't been

525
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 9: a democratic election since, not because Palestinians don't want it,

526
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 9: but because it's been convenient for Mahmudabas not to have

527
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 9: such elections. So Hamas is essentially viewing it as we're

528
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 9: stuck being the government. You know, one of us officials

529
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 9: said to me, do you know what happens if we

530
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 9: don't pay people you know that are on our payroll,

531
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 9: or what happens if the garbage isn't picked up? People

532
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 9: protest against us like they would anywhere else. So it's,

533
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 9: you know, it's an interesting point. So they're saying, we

534
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 9: don't even want to be the government anymore. But if

535
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 9: we sign this kind of a deal, we will fully

536
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 9: relinquish all control of Gaza. We will submit to the

537
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 9: democratic will of the Palestinian people, will go one of

538
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 9: two ways. Egypt has made a proposal that there could

539
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 9: be a sort of technocratic committee of experts that would

540
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 9: govern Gaza until democratic elections could be organized and hell

541
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 9: or you could do something under the auspices of the

542
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 9: Palestinian authority. Even though Hamas is the extremely critical of Mahmudabas,

543
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 9: who they perceive as a collaborator with the Israeli regime.

544
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 9: They and other Palestinian factions have submitted forty to forty

545
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 9: five names as suggestions for people that they would accept

546
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 9: on a committee, and they're willing to submit to the

547
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 9: authority of the Palestinian authority their political rivals. That's a

548
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 9: massive political concession that Hamas is making. On the issue

549
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 9: of weapons, what Hamas has said is there will be

550
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 9: no need for resistance factions to have any weapons if

551
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 9: Palestine as a state is allowed to constitute its own

552
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 9: military and police forces capable of defending its territorial integrity.

553
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 9: The final thing I'll say about this is Osama Hamdan

554
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 9: said to me. I thought he was going to say

555
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 9: there's no you know, I asked him about two state solution.

556
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 9: What's called two state solution. I thought he was going

557
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 9: to say it's dead in the water. I've been told

558
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 9: that by other Palestinian resistance figures. He said, Israel is

559
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 9: the party destroying the two state solution, and Hamas would

560
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 9: welcome a two state solution if a majority of Palestinians

561
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 9: voted for it. We would never stand in the way

562
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 9: of it. If it was constituted along the pre nineteen

563
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 9: sixty seven war borders, if East Jerusalem was the capital,

564
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 9: and if Israel was forced through international oversight by the

565
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 9: United States and others to respect those boundaries, that Hamas

566
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 9: would not stand in the way of a two state solution.

567
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 9: So people can dismiss what Hamas is saying. But since

568
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 9: nineteen ninety two ninety three, the Hamas leadership has been

569
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 9: proposing these long term truce deals with Israel, which are

570
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 9: intended to create a multi year but defined period where

571
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 9: Hamas and other resistance groups will agree to engage in

572
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 9: no attacks unless they're militarily attacked, in the hopes that

573
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 9: there can be a longer term political solution. From Donald

574
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 9: Trump's perspective, that doesn't sound like a bad deal. And

575
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 9: I think that's why the Israelis didn't want someone like

576
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 9: Adam Boehler, who's a friend of the Trump family, or

577
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 9: Steve Whitkoff directly speaking to Hamas, because it might put

578
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 9: in their heads the idea Trump could actually preside over

579
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 9: a very long term deal.

580
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think if Trump just and Amir Tabone and

581
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 6: Haretz wrote a column saying this, if Trump just tweeted

582
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 6: the same way he tweeted at Putin Vladimir stop, if

583
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 6: he tweeted, this would Tabona written, Benjamin stop, get the

584
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 6: hostages out.

585
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: Make a deal like that would actually work.

586
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 6: Like tweeting at Putin not going to get you very far,

587
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 6: that tweet might actually work before you live. I wanted

588
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 6: to get your response to what Israel has been doing instead,

589
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 6: if we can put up a seven real quick from

590
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 6: the drop site Twitter feed, in the last twenty four hours,

591
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 6: Israel has bombed eastern and southern Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Gaza.

592
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 6: It's almost easier at this point to report you know

593
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 6: which neighboring countries Israel is not bombing. I'm curious, and

594
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 6: let's put up the one before that, which is a five.

595
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 6: I'm curious from your conversations with the Hamas officials.

596
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: This is uh.

597
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 6: This is a Hoothy spokesperson saying that he's that the

598
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 6: Hoothies are going to shut down air travel on an

599
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 6: ongoing basis into Israel in response to israel siege on Gaza.

600
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 6: They're saying that their strike on Ben Guria on airport

601
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 6: is going to be repeated, and he warns international airlines

602
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 6: not to fly into Ben Gurion Airport.

603
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: Curious two things.

604
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 6: One, how how does how did Hamas respond to this,

605
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 6: this kind of escalating war that's now involving almost every

606
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 6: country touching Israel, And how do they feel about the

607
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 6: Houthi response in solidarity?

608
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 9: You know, I think not just Hamas, not just Palestinians.

609
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 9: I think that you know, really sharp observers in the

610
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 9: region of history understand that what has happened is that

611
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 9: Israel has run around throwing a lot of punches, and

612
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 9: they think that that they've knocked out all of their adversaries,

613
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 9: but no one can predict what the counter strike is

614
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 9: going to look like. You know, I had one very

615
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 9: senior Palestinian resistance figure tell me last week that Israel

616
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 9: is going to be wishing one day that Hamas was back,

617
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 9: because what's going to come next is going to be

618
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 9: a much more radical, much more ferocious enemy. Because a

619
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 9: whole generation of children, not just in Gaza, not just

620
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 9: in the West Bank, but now in Lebanon, the children

621
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 9: that were maimed by the Pager bomb plot, the Yemeni

622
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 9: Yemeni's who are being bombed on a regular basis by

623
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 9: the United States and Israel, increasingly Syrians. This generation that

624
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 9: rises up is going to be coming of age in

625
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 9: the shadow of one of the most brutal campaigns of

626
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 9: lethal arson waged by an Israeli leader in history. And

627
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 9: so while Netanyahu might feel that he's at the zenith

628
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 9: of his life's mission to you know, take it to

629
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 9: all of these resistance factions and try to redraw the

630
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 9: maps of the Middle least, history shows that this is

631
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 9: only the opening salvo, and what comes next is likely

632
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 9: to be much more ferocious than what Metan, Yahoo and

633
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 9: Israel have dealt with to date. So you know, Trump

634
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 9: should tread very very carefully in his embrace of this

635
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 9: arsonist agenda because history shows that what comes next, the

636
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 9: fire next time, is going to be much more ferocious.

637
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, I could imagine ten fifteen years from now, israel

638
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 6: officials looking back at the Hamas proposal of a five

639
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 6: to seven year truce handing over power to a civilian

640
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,719
Speaker 6: authority as something that they would desperately like to go

641
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 6: back and be able to take.

642
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 9: Rian, Can I tell you one bit of news that's

643
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 9: one bit of just bit of news that I haven't

644
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 9: reported anywhere, but I feel it's appropriate to share it

645
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 9: with you guys. You know, our colleague Hassam Shabbat was

646
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 9: assassinated in late March by Israeli forces, and Israel had

647
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 9: alleged that he was a Hamas sniper in the bait

648
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 9: Hanun battalion of the Casam Brigades. I've been asking Palestinian

649
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 9: officials about this from Hamas, and what I was told

650
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 9: is that they actually did an audit. They wanted to

651
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 9: get to the bottom of this, and they actually had

652
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 9: Casam Brigades search documents, interview people. What I was told

653
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 9: is that they are saying that not only was Hassam

654
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 9: Shabbat not a sniper and not in the Casam Brigades,

655
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 9: that he was not even a member of Hamas. And

656
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 9: they formally told me, and they are alleging this that

657
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 9: the documents that Israel released purporting to show that Hassam

658
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 9: Shabbat and other journalists are members of Hamas are fabricated documents.

659
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 9: That's what Hamas told me on the record.

660
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

661
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 6: And the document that they were circulating about Hasam, it

662
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 6: suggested he would have been I think, like sixteen years

663
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 6: old when he was in some training camp. And what

664
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 6: I can't understand about Israeli fabricated documents is why they

665
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 6: don't make them more credible. Remember the one where they

666
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 6: the guy would have been eleven when he was in it. Like,

667
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 6: if you're going to fabricate the document, like, at least

668
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 6: try to make it like you you have a blank

669
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 6: space in front of you, Like the page is blank,

670
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 6: you can write, put whatever numbers you want in there.

671
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 6: Why why make it so incredible that that's that's interesting though,

672
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 6: that they that they dived into those that they dived

673
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 6: into those accusations. Do they do they plan on putting

674
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 6: anything officially.

675
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: Out about that? It's and it's hard to there's no

676
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: document that I guess that can I.

677
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 9: Was raising it with them because he's our colleague and

678
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 9: and so you know, I had really been pushing them

679
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 9: and saying, like, you know, can can you is there

680
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 9: any legitimacy to this? Is there something maybe that they're

681
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 9: basing it on? You know that I think that's the

682
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 9: responsible thing to do as a as a journalist when

683
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 9: these kinds of allegations are levied against a colleague. And

684
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 9: it's been you know, weeks and weeks I've been pushing

685
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 9: them on that, and finally they said, okay, we've done

686
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 9: We've done that, and we've done this audit. Now people

687
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 9: can say, oh, well, Hamas is going to say that.

688
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 9: Not really, I mean Hamas and Kassam are you know

689
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 9: they they claim their martyrs publicly and and so you know,

690
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 9: their initial response was no, nobody's ever heard of it.

691
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 9: And I said, no, well that you know, yeah, you

692
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 9: can say that, but I mean, have you have you

693
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 9: actually checked? And so I was quite surprised when I

694
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 9: met personally with them that they said, we actually did that,

695
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 9: and here's our finding.

696
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: No, you're right, that's that.

697
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 6: People should understand that point that if somebody dies who's

698
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 6: in Kassam, they very publicly will we'll claim him, say

699
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 6: like that, you know he was a martyr in art

700
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 6: in this and will list all of the different affiliations.

701
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: So that's that. That is the history that's accurate.

702
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, Jeremy, thank you so much. The story was fantastic.

703
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 8: Thanks Emily, Thank you, Ryan.

704
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 4: Will.

705
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 5: President Trump sent Hollywood reeling on Sunday after making an

706
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 5: announcement that he would be implementing one hundred percent tariffs

707
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 5: on films. Just films, by the way, we can get

708
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 5: into what all of that means, but that are produced

709
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 5: outside of the United States. Now we don't even know

710
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 5: what that means, because there's some questions of co production.

711
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 5: There's production in one place and also another place. But

712
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 5: let's just take a listen to Donald Trump on Sunday

713
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 5: explaining what he's doing.

714
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 11: What they've done is other nations have been stealing the

715
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 11: the movies, the movie making capabilities from the United States.

716
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 11: And I said to a couple of people, what do

717
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 11: you think. I've got some very strong research over the

718
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 11: last week, and we're making.

719
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 12: Very few movies.

720
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 11: Now Hollywood is being destroyed.

721
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 5: Now you have an.

722
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 11: Incompetent, grossly in competent governor.

723
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 10: That allows that to happen.

724
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 5: So I'm not just.

725
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 11: Blaming other nations, but other nations, a lot of them

726
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 11: have stolen our movie industry.

727
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 7: And I'm saying, if they're.

728
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 11: Not willing to make a movie inside the United States,

729
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 11: and we should have a tariff when movies that come in.

730
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 11: And not only that, governments are actually giving big money,

731
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 11: I mean they're supporting them facial.

732
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 4: So that's sort of a threat to.

733
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 13: Our country in a sense.

734
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 11: And it's been a very pot movie maker's.

735
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 5: Love and so you can see the truth social post

736
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 5: this is b too that Donald Trump put out that

737
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 5: again this all sent Hollywood absolutely reeling. You can see

738
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 5: here he narrowly mentions movies and he says movies coming

739
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 5: into our country that are produced in foreign lands. He

740
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 5: invokes the question of national security, and we can control

741
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:22,959
Speaker 5: them throt B three whenever we want.

742
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 14: This is the.

743
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 5: Hollywood Reporter, which has had pretty good coverage of this

744
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 5: over the last forty eight hours. The Hollywood Reporter basically

745
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 5: is I don't want to say they're forced to admit this,

746
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 5: but Hollywood in general is kind of forced to admit

747
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 5: that it is true. There have been incentives for some

748
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 5: productions to go to places like Canada and Hungary. There's

749
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 5: production that happens, post production that happens in places.

750
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 4: Like the UK.

751
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 5: But what's I think also very interesting is this sounds

752
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 5: like Donald Trump is thinking about China in particular. So

753
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 5: when he is invoking national security, it sounds like he's

754
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 5: making an argument people like me made five years ago

755
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 5: about China, and since then, since the pandemic, actually a

756
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 5: lot of that has changed. I'm going to skip ahead

757
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 5: here to be five and we can just roll through

758
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 5: A and B. But if we look at B five

759
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 5: A this is a chart from the New York Times

760
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 5: and You can see here the top ten movies each

761
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 5: year in China. In the twenty tens, a lot of

762
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 5: them were actually Hollywood movies. Now a lot of them

763
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 5: are not Hollywood movies. Twenty twenty three, not a single

764
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 5: Hollywood movie in the top ten. And so what happened

765
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 5: is that Hollywood reached out to China. We've had Chris

766
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 5: Benton on to talk about how he was a leader

767
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 5: in trying to broker that relationship between Hollywood and China,

768
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 5: and it was a massive source of growth for Hollywood

769
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 5: as they were being wrecked by streaming, as everything was

770
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 5: being thrown into chaos by streaming. And here's another great

771
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 5: chart from the New York Times. Revenue from top grossing

772
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 5: movies is shrinking in China. So again, twenty twenty three,

773
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 5: non Hollywood movies all the revenue in China. So all

774
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 5: this is to say this has changed significantly over the

775
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 5: last five years. These questions of Nash security concerns that

776
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 5: were raised during the filming of Top Gun two, for example,

777
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 5: where you had the Pentagon heavily collaborating on a movie

778
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 5: that's all Pentagon equipment that's very common in Hollywood, has

779
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 5: been for a couple of decades. They literally cooperate with

780
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 5: the Department of Defense and bring in training exercises, and

781
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 5: that's what you've seen a lot of like Jerry Bruckheimer

782
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 5: movies and things like Top Gun.

783
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 4: Frankly, so that.

784
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 5: Was considered national security concern because China had censorship power.

785
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 4: Over the script.

786
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 5: They took the Taiwanese flag off Tom Cruise's bomber jacket,

787
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,439
Speaker 5: and what's very cpirt.

788
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: Why did he have a Taiwanese flag on his bomber jacket.

789
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 4: It was in the eighties too. It's sort of like

790
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 4: part of the whole thing.

791
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 5: But anyway, this has already changed so much. Hollywood feels

792
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 5: like China has already learned everything that it can and

793
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 5: is already making some of these incredible movies by using

794
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 5: what Donald Trump says there about how they're taking American

795
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 5: film nohow.

796
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 4: I mean that sort of has.

797
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 5: Already that process is kind of already played out, and

798
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 5: China isn't even the concern anymore because Hollywood isn't cooperating

799
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 5: with China at the rate that it was just a

800
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 5: couple of years ago.

801
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 4: So it's it's a really interesting move.

802
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 5: I mean, you can I guess reshore some stuff that's

803
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 5: been pushed to Canada in the UK, but a lot

804
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 5: of this. First of all, movies do need to be

805
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 5: filmed on location in other parts of the world, and

806
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 5: some of it is just the For example, for atasit

807
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 5: to you Ryan the strikes in Hollywood a couple of

808
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 5: years ago, it costs more money to make movies in

809
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 5: the United States that does in other places. And so

810
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 5: if you're also not dealing with ensuring that Hollywood is

811
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 5: paying writers in this age of IP questions and technological upheaval, actors,

812
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 5: anybody in this space. I mean, it's just an enormous,

813
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 5: thorny challenge. One hundred percent tariff maybe can have some effect,

814
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 5: but it'll have to be like all the other tariffs,

815
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 5: augmented with other significant policies.

816
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's another example of us trying to you know,

817
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 6: compete with the rest of.

818
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: The world while the rest of the world is.

819
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 6: Able to do sophisticated strategic policy making and we just don't,

820
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 6: like we we have tariffs. In this case, Trump is

821
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 6: gonna I'm gonna put a tariff. Well, and then you're like, oh,

822
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 6: what does that mean is does it get tariff because

823
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 6: like one of your editors was in Paris or London

824
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 6: or and yes, like it's not just other countries like Atlanta.

825
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: You know, it has been pulling a rug out from.

826
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 6: Under Hollywood as well, by reaching out to these production

827
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 6: companies and telling them if you come here, we will

828
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 6: give you this tax break, this this expat so the

829
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 6: way to well, I mean, it's also just kind of

830
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 6: industrial policy in another way, like you're you're sub you're

831
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 6: subsidizing the thing that you want. And so the US

832
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 6: would then have to say, okay, Hungary just doing this.

833
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 6: You need to negotiate with hunger in Canada and say

834
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 6: stop doing this or else we're going to retally against

835
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 6: X and like that. That's how you do a kind

836
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 6: of trade war, because this is you know, this is

837
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 6: a service that is an export of ours, and we

838
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 6: import your maple syrup and we're gonna be mean to

839
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 6: it if you're if you don't stop subsidizing these Toronto

840
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 6: film shoots, or we equalize the subsidies and go to

841
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 6: the Hollywood and say, look, if you do it here,

842
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 6: it's worth it to us as a taxpayer to match

843
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 6: those subsidies.

844
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: And that would require Congress. Good luck with that.

845
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 5: So Yeah, let's roll, Howard letnink because actually filming it

846
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 5: Canda has been happening for a very long time. So

847
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 5: this is B six Howard Latink talking about the policy.

848
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 14: So Mark Carney, whom I managed, Essential Banker, you're gonna

849
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 14: are you optimistic? Can we make a deal with Canada?

850
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 15: I think it's really complex. I think this is really

851
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 15: complex because they have been basically feeding off of us

852
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 15: for decades upon decades upon decades, right, they have their

853
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 15: socialist regime and it's basically feeding off of America. I mean,

854
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 15: the President calls that out all the time. Why do

855
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 15: we make cars in Canada? Why do we do our

856
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 15: films in Canada? Come on? So, I think the President's

857
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 15: going to have I think it's going to be a

858
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 15: fascinating meeting. I'm glad I'm going to be there listening.

859
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 15: But it's going to be a fascinating meeting tomorrow.

860
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 5: And of course that meeting is happening later today, Donald

861
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 5: Trump and Mark Carney. So it's possible Ryan that one

862
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 5: read on the situation is that Donald Trump was trying

863
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 5: to put more on the table ahead of his meeting

864
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,359
Speaker 5: with Mark Carney. I mean, this is not an insignificant

865
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 5: part of.

866
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 4: The Canadian economy.

867
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 5: There have been productions in Canada for a long time,

868
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 5: and Hollywood has done movies and TV shows there for

869
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 5: a long time. Trump's true social posts again only mentioned movies.

870
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 5: This is another question that the Hollywood Reporter has raised

871
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 5: is first of all, how are you tariffing things that

872
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 5: are coming across borders when it's a lot of this

873
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 5: is just streaming. It's a significant like, I mean, some

874
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 5: of people are buying DVDs that are produced.

875
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 4: It's a very the.

876
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 5: Data that is encoded onto a DVD, I guess potentially

877
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 5: is produced in China if it's post production, or I

878
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 5: mean in Canada it's post production. But I guess it's

879
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 5: possible that Trump just wanted to throw some leverage out

880
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 5: there ahead of his conversation with Mark Karney.

881
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 4: That might be one way to look it up.

882
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: It's probably more animalistic Trump. Trump loves Hollywood like he

883
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: has a love hate relationship with Hollywood, and you know,

884
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: like an old man, he sees that it was better

885
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: when he was younger, and he's right about that. What

886
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to think about is that.

887
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 6: The biggest blow probably you know, to Hollywood is his

888
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,439
Speaker 6: trade war with China. One of the first responses from

889
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:43,720
Speaker 6: China was, we're going to significantly reduce the amount of

890
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 6: the movies that we're gonna, you know, allow from Hollywood

891
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 6: into China.

892
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,919
Speaker 4: Even it stopped significantly, Even though.

893
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 6: It was down, it's still on an absolute basis, represents

894
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 6: enormous sums of money. And that's that's the thing about

895
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 6: the Chinese market. Now it can be maybe we're not

896
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 6: in the top ten, but it's still huge amounts of money.

897
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, I mean it was a it was a

898
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 5: really big part of their growth plan going forward, and

899
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 5: then sort of the pandemic made them realize that probably

900
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:13,760
Speaker 5: wouldn't be the case.

901
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 4: But yes, there's still you know.

902
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 5: I imagine a decent drink of money on the table,

903
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 5: but a ton of money on the table in Canada, UK,

904
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 5: Hungary where some of these productions have been moved.

905
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 4: So we'll see.

906
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 6: Well, looks like twenty twenty three, Hollywood firms earned eight

907
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 6: billion in.

908
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 5: China and a lot of that is probably on older

909
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 5: stuff too, would be my guess.

910
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,439
Speaker 4: That's what will is that box office a lot.

911
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: Of money revenue?

912
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 4: I don't know, Okay, Yeah, So also it's.

913
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: Way down but it's a lot of money, and that's

914
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: my point.

915
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, of course, especially when they don't have a

916
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 5: lot of money to toss around like they're doing great

917
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 5: right now.

918
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 4: Anyway, all that.

919
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 5: Is to say, and we will see how Donald Trump's

920
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 5: meeting with Mark Carney goes today. We will see how

921
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 5: real this policy actually is going forward, you know, if

922
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 5: Donald Trump wants it to be real, even just the

923
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 5: process of implementing it. Given everything we just laid out,

924
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 5: does it apply to things that are co produced in

925
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 5: other countries, that are partially produced in one country? Does

926
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 5: it apply to TV shows? Does it apply just to

927
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 5: box offices, does it apply to streaming? There's really no

928
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 5: clear idea of what this would look like, so Hollywood

929
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 5: is left to scramble and lobby and I guess.

930
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 4: Hope for the best.

931
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 5: So we'll see what happens, and we should get to

932
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 5: Jannis Faa Fucus Now, Ryan, all.

933
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: Right, stick around for that.

934
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 6: We're moving now to Jannis Vera, Faucus writer and former

935
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 6: Greek finance minister Giannis thank you.

936
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: So much for joining us.

937
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 7: Peaks make great pleasure to thank you for having me.

938
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 6: And so let's start with Howard Lutnik who's the kind

939
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 6: of man about cable lately? Commerce Secretary for President Donald

940
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 6: Trump speaking yesterday, I believe this on CNBC.

941
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 14: So of course it's going to be a top ten

942
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 14: what's up a top ten economy from Asia?

943
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 15: Listen, the Asian markets are very complex and there's a

944
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 15: lot of talking to do right. To get these things right,

945
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 15: you've got to do a lot of talking that We've

946
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:11,959
Speaker 15: only got ninety days and we all got sixty left,

947
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 15: so these things are coming, but you gotta be patient. Now,

948
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 15: we're going to get some deals done pretty soon. The

949
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 15: President will decide when he announces it. Because remember I'm

950
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 15: as Commerce Secretary. I do the work, but the boss,

951
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 15: and you know the boss as well as anybody in

952
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 15: the world, and this is his deal to me, I'm told,

953
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 15: and his deal to do.

954
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: No I appreciate that.

955
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 6: Yes, that was on Fox Business, but I want to

956
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 6: play that clip because as we've been trying to report

957
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 6: on the Trump Administration's ongoing trade war, we've tried to

958
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 6: give kind of the best possible perspective, the best put

959
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 6: the Trump administration's argument in the best possible light so

960
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 6: that people can agree with or disagree with it, and

961
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 6: I've had a really hard time figuring out what it is.

962
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 6: I don't exactly know what they're trying to accomplish, and

963
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 6: some of your writing has been really helpful in laying

964
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 6: out what possibly could be driving some of what the

965
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 6: thinking is behind the Trump administration's kind of reorganizing of

966
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 6: the world economy at this point in time, What do

967
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 6: you think the Trump administration is trying to accomplish.

968
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 7: Two basic things.

969
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 16: The first thing they want to do is they want

970
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 16: to devalue, substantially devalue the dollar while simultaneously, and that

971
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 16: may sound like a part of expert I don't believe

972
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 16: it is maintaining the exobitant privilege, a so called exobitant

973
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 16: privilege of the dollar, maintaining its hegemonic presence in the weldicon.

974
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 16: That's one of the possibly the most significant goal. The

975
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 16: second thing they're trying to do is essentially tie together

976
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 16: the extent to which the Trump administration is going to

977
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 16: assault it's allies and foes with Trump with Trump's tariffs.

978
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 16: To tie this in to the extent to which tips

979
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 16: are going to be used. So use tartiffs in order

980
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 16: to enhance the penetration of the American military industrial complex

981
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 16: in other people's economies and to calibrate that.

982
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 7: Penetration by the means of the tips.

983
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 16: But the first task, which I mentioned, seems to be

984
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 16: judging by what Scott Pasient is saying, what seven miran

985
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 16: are saying, it seems to be the number one priority.

986
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: It seems to be working right.

987
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:41,240
Speaker 6: And what would be the consequence if they do successfully

988
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 6: devalue the dollar but maintain the hegemonic presence?

989
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 5: And can I also say Joannest, especially in the context

990
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 5: of Trump pulling back originally because of what he saw

991
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 5: on the bond market, I think he said people were

992
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 5: getting quote a little yippie. How does that all? How

993
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 5: does all of this fit together?

994
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 16: Well, there's no doubt that he got the scare. He

995
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 16: felt that less trusts moment may be coming his way, undoubtedly,

996
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 16: so he stepped back. But he's going to step forward

997
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 16: again in his usual shuffle. But allow me to just

998
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 16: by the way less I am misunderstood. I'm not supporting

999
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 16: the Trumpian project, but I do believe that those of

1000
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 16: us who are politically opposed to it, we have a

1001
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 16: duty to understand it and not to dismiss them as

1002
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 16: a bunch of Neanderthals, which is what the liberal establishment,

1003
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 16: to the detriment, I have to add, are doing.

1004
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 7: So.

1005
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 16: Look, if you heard Scott Bessant at the IMF the

1006
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 16: other day, he was really very clear. He talked about

1007
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 16: the Breton Woods institutions, he talked about the Nixon shock

1008
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 16: in nineteen seventy one, and essentially what he was telling

1009
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 16: his audience was, and it's not any rational perspective to

1010
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 16: present the world.

1011
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,959
Speaker 7: What you were saying was, Look, folks.

1012
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 16: Ever since we became a deficit country at the end

1013
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 16: of the nineteen sixties, by ninety seventy, America was a

1014
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 16: deficit country. We achieved something quite spectacular. We managed to

1015
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 16: grow our hegemonic power in proportion to our trade deficit

1016
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 16: and our budget deficit. That has never happened before. No

1017
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 16: empire has managed to grow its power while going into

1018
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 16: the red. And the United States managed to do it

1019
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 16: at the expense of the American working class, at the

1020
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 16: expense of a very substantial portion of the American middle class.

1021
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 16: But we did it, And then he adds, I don't

1022
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 16: believe we can carry on doing it because there is

1023
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:47,760
Speaker 16: a limit beyond which trade deficits are not sustainable. Anymore,

1024
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 16: and you see the success of the Nixon administration, the

1025
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 16: Cardon administration, the Reagan administration, and so on and so forth,

1026
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 16: was that they managed to make other people's capitalists pay

1027
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 16: for the American deficits in a manner which enriched violently

1028
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 16: reached the American renteer class.

1029
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:15,760
Speaker 7: But that gave rise in the end to an incongruity.

1030
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 16: If you look at the dollar world, the world out there,

1031
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 16: the economic sphere that is denominated in dollars, it is gigantic,

1032
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 16: and it has been growing since the ninety seventies. But

1033
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 16: the manufacturing capacity, the real material economy of the United States,

1034
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 16: on which this dollar world is parasitic has been shrinking

1035
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 16: and shrinking and shrinking. So you have a huge parasite

1036
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 16: and a tiny little organism on which the big parasite

1037
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 16: is being parasitic too. So their concern is that this

1038
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 16: is becoming completely disproportional. They need to shrink the dollar

1039
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 16: world and increase the extent to which the American economic

1040
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:56,240
Speaker 16: and manufacturer stuff.

1041
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 7: This is what they want.

1042
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 16: So from their perspective, at the valuation of the dollar

1043
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 16: by around thirty percent, which is ballpark, what they want

1044
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 16: will restore something like an equilibrium, not an equilibrium, but

1045
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:16,720
Speaker 16: it will take the whole gamut closer to an equilibrium.

1046
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 16: But they're very, very worried that this devaluation should not

1047
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:25,240
Speaker 16: be allowed to diminish the exorbitant privilege of the dollar.

1048
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 16: And this is why they're playing hardball with China. This

1049
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 16: is why they're playing hardball with the Japanese. They're telling

1050
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 16: the Japanese, sell a chunk of your one point two

1051
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 16: trillion dollars of savings, but don't buy Japanese yen. Do

1052
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 16: not buy the euro, do not buy the Chinese one.

1053
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 16: We will tell you what to buy. So tariffs are

1054
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 16: in that context, in the context of present.

1055
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 7: Their side show. They may be very high.

1056
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 16: Up the list of priorities of the Great Donald, but

1057
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 16: not his economic team. His economic team is far more

1058
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 16: interested in what they call the imbalancing of the dollar,

1059
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 16: paper money trail and the actual productive capacities of the

1060
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 16: United States.

1061
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 4: And let's put see one on the screen.

1062
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 5: So this is from Arnold Bertrand who points out that China, Japan,

1063
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 5: South Korea, and the countries of Asen just issued a

1064
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 5: joint statement in which they take a unified stance against

1065
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 5: quote escalating trade protectionism, clear reference to Trump's tariffs.

1066
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 4: And I want to.

1067
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 5: Ask you, honest, now that we've sort of established, I

1068
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 5: think very accurately what the administration's goal is, and that's

1069
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 5: hazy and a lot of corners of the media where

1070
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 5: they have this distorted idea of what the administration is

1071
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 5: actually trying to doing, is actually trying to do? How

1072
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 5: would you say that they're doing towards their own goal?

1073
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 5: If that is their own goal, how is the progress

1074
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 5: is it working, let's say, on their own terms.

1075
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 7: Allow me to be frank, it is far too early

1076
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 7: to know.

1077
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 16: Imagine we had the time machine and we went back

1078
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 16: to let's say October ninety seventy one, a couple of

1079
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 16: months after the Nixon Shock, it would have been impossible

1080
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 16: to predict whether the Nixon shock could have worked, because

1081
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 16: it took it a decade for the Nixon Shock to

1082
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 16: be implemented fully. Which means that the Trump administration, this

1083
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 16: Trump administration, can all explaining it, to.

1084
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 1: Explain to us what the Nixon shock is.

1085
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 16: In nineteen seventy one, fifteenth of August, those old enough

1086
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 16: can remember that because it was a shocking day. It

1087
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 16: was the day when effectively Nixon blew up the international

1088
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 16: monetary system that the United States had painstakingly put together

1089
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 16: at the Breton Moods Conference in ninety forty four. The

1090
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 16: golden age of American capitals with global capitalism, which was

1091
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 16: the nineteen fifties and sixties as well. We all know

1092
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 16: and remember it was predicated. It was built on that

1093
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 16: monetary system. It was a remarkable system, come to think

1094
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 16: of it. It had the anchor was the dollar. People

1095
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 16: say that it was the gold, because indeed the United

1096
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 16: States guaranteed anyone with thirty five dollars an ounce of

1097
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 16: gold from Fort Knox, But.

1098
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 7: That was a side show. It was more for show.

1099
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 16: The reality was that it was a monetary system predicated

1100
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 16: on the United States dollar, which was in fixed exchange rates,

1101
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 16: completely pegged to every other currency in Europe and in

1102
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 16: Japan and the Japanese yen. For years, for decades, there

1103
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 16: were no fluctuations in exchange rates. Interstates were stuck at

1104
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 16: around four and a half percent plus on minus zero

1105
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 16: point one zero point two percent.

1106
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 7: It was wonderfully boring.

1107
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 16: You know, the whole financial establisher imagine, you know, you

1108
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 16: never had to check the exchange rates or interstates because

1109
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 16: we're for decades they were the same, and it was

1110
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 16: a golden era because what was the essence of the

1111
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 16: Breton Wood system. It was that the United States exited

1112
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 16: the Second World War as the only creditor nation, as

1113
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 16: the only plus nation, the only country with a large,

1114
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 16: gigantic trade surplus. It was the only country that was

1115
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 16: not in ashes after the Second World War, and the

1116
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 16: idea was to maintain those surpluses. The American administration would

1117
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 16: do whatever it took in order to dollarize Europe and Japan,

1118
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 16: essentially essentially taking part of its surpluses, sending it to

1119
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 16: Europe into Japan, either in the form of aid or loans,

1120
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 16: private loans, public loans, so that the Europeans that the

1121
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 16: Japanese could afford would have enough dollars to purchase the

1122
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 16: American experts. And this worked brilliantly until the United States

1123
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 16: no longer had the surplus.

1124
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 7: And with typical.

1125
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 16: Bravado brigard Nixon, there wasn't Nixon himself, there were some

1126
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 16: very interesting people around him. The Nixon team comprised Henry Kissinger,

1127
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 16: who was the National Security Advisor at the time before

1128
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 16: he became the Secretary of State. It was John Connolly,

1129
00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 16: the former Texas governor Democrat who abscondent joined the Nixon

1130
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 16: administration became the Treasury secretary. Yes, indeed he was in

1131
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 16: the car when JFK was shot and primarily a young

1132
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 16: man called Paul Volke that no one knew at the

1133
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 16: time who was the real brains of the Nixon shock.

1134
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 16: But there is one mentioning that, and thank you for

1135
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 16: giving the opportunity to say that the Nition Shock took

1136
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 16: place on the fifteenth of August ninety seventy one.

1137
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 7: It was major.

1138
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 16: You know, Nixon sent Connelly, his Treasury secretary, to the

1139
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 16: Europeans who were pulling their hair out because the dollar

1140
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 16: divided so fast and essentially inflation and unemployment was coming

1141
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 16: the way of the Europeans as a result of that

1142
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 16: move by Nixon, and Connelly very arrogantly and aggressively looked

1143
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 16: at them with cynicism, I would say, and said to them, guys,

1144
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 16: the dollar is our currency, but from today it is

1145
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 16: your problem. So when people say that, you know, what

1146
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 16: Trump did is unprecedented, and never before has America treated this.

1147
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 7: Allies so badly, that's rubbish.

1148
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 16: They did it in ninety seventy one and they kept

1149
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 16: doing it for years and years. And indeed, Paul Volker,

1150
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 16: before he was appointed by Carter chairman of the FED,

1151
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 16: a couple of months before that in nineteen eighty seventy five,

1152
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 16: in actually in ninety seventy eight, if I remember correctly,

1153
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 16: he gave a speech that the University of Warwick in England,

1154
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 16: which was remarkable because there he outlined the plan and

1155
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 16: the plan was and I am quoting here the button

1156
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 16: because I've it's etched in my mind this speech of his.

1157
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 7: He said, the.

1158
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 16: United States has opted, for reasons of its own national interest,

1159
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 16: for the control disintegration of the world economy.

1160
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 7: Does this remind you of anything?

1161
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 16: This is sevity had the control disintegration, and the Japanese

1162
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 16: and the Europeans were pulling their hair out. So but

1163
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 16: you see, it took ten years because it wasn't just

1164
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:01,919
Speaker 16: an some shog ninety seventy one. It was a content

1165
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 16: administration that continued that by appointing that's the same man,

1166
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 16: you know, Paul Volga to be the head of the FED.

1167
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 16: And then Reagan continued it, and then Bush continued it,

1168
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 16: and Clinton continued it.

1169
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:14,919
Speaker 7: So whether you know.

1170
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 16: This, this is my excuse for saying it's too early

1171
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 16: to judge whether the truck shock is going to work,

1172
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 16: because the question is is there going to be this

1173
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 16: continuity in implementing the basic idea which people like Scott

1174
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 16: Peasant are outlining.

1175
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 6: And so I often also fall into the trap of

1176
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 6: thinking that these are Neanderthals that are organizing this policy,

1177
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 6: but I agree and follow along with their analysis all

1178
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 6: the way up until basically implementation. When it comes to

1179
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 6: the implementation, it feels like there's no and therefore this

1180
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 6: is how it's going to work out. And maybe I'm

1181
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 6: missing this as well, but they are you know, effectively

1182
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 6: you know, devaluing the dollar, creating conditions that could you know,

1183
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 6: create some manufacturing turnaround without having done the work of

1184
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 6: giving us the foundation on which we could build a

1185
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 6: manufacturing capacity, like you still need things and people in

1186
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 6: order to feed that. You know, economics by itself is

1187
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 6: just just magic. Like it can't you know, by magic,

1188
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 6: It can't just create things out of nothing. And if

1189
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 6: China tells us, well, we're not sending you any semiconductors,

1190
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 6: We're not sending you any any of the magnets, You're

1191
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 6: not going to get any of the fund refined rare

1192
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 6: earths that you're manufacturing capacity needs. We're going to have

1193
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 6: a collapse in our manufacturing base relative to last year,

1194
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 6: and then the politics are going to reverse and end

1195
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 6: this entire experiment before it even you know, gets out,

1196
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 6: gets out of the lab And that would answer, then

1197
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 6: answer your question of whether it's working, because in order

1198
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 6: for it to work, you need political continuity, and you

1199
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 6: can't have political continuity. I wouldn't think if you get

1200
01:02:56,640 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 6: a significant recession and you don't see any green shoots

1201
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 6: of Manu factoring out of it. So what am I

1202
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 6: missing there?

1203
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: Like?

1204
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 6: What is best and see as the as the potential

1205
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 6: for us to revitalize our manufacturing capacity while simultaneously cutting

1206
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 6: ourselves off from trade.

1207
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 5: And you honest, I'll just add there now saying the

1208
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 5: tax cut bill that Trump hopes to pass over the

1209
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 5: summer will include like one hundred percent right offs on.

1210
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 1: Building expenses something of an answer.

1211
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 5: Retroactive to January twenty. So I don't know how you

1212
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 5: would react to all of that.

1213
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 16: Yeah, well, I'll sell the last point you made about

1214
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 16: the tax scats. We keep forgetting that Trump's shotgun has

1215
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 16: two battles, one of them contained the tariffs. The second

1216
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 16: one the tax scats. The second has not been fired yet.

1217
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 16: And I think this is a very important part of

1218
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 16: their plan for attracting foreign capital, particularly particularly German capital,

1219
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 16: or Japanese capital, or Taiwanese capital in the United States.

1220
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 7: But yes, look, you have every reason.

1221
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 16: To be despondent about the lack of preparation, the the

1222
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 16: chaotic nature of all these announcements, the very sloppy language

1223
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 16: that Donald Trump in particular uses reciprocal tariffs.

1224
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:21,479
Speaker 7: There's no reciproces in what he's doing.

1225
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 16: He's just going all out with Jake and the tariffs

1226
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 16: in proportion to the trade deficit that.

1227
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 7: The United States has vis a very particular countries.

1228
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:31,439
Speaker 16: So yes, I mean it is a bit you will

1229
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 16: excuse my unscientific term, it's a bit of a shit show.

1230
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 16: But then again, then again, I have to take you

1231
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 16: back to nineteen seventy one.

1232
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 7: It was exactly that.

1233
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 16: In ninety seventy You know, Richard Dix was not the

1234
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 16: most coherent for reasonable people in the world, right, he

1235
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 16: was probably one of the worst ones. He also on

1236
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 16: the fifteen of August. What we tend to forget is

1237
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 16: that not only did he uncoupled the United States dollar

1238
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 16: from gold and had the massive.

1239
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 7: Evaluation of the dollar. But he also did something else.

1240
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 7: He introduced tariffs ten percent tariffs.

1241
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 16: Immediately the same day, and then he took those back

1242
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 16: three months later. So that's why I keep insisting that

1243
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 16: we've seen this play before, and we have seen the chaos,

1244
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 16: and we have seen how remarkably it worked. Not on

1245
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 16: behalf of the working class of the United States, of

1246
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 16: the middle class of the United States, they were destroyed.

1247
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 16: I mean, as you know, in your country, hourly real

1248
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 16: wages are still below the level that they used to

1249
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 16: be at in nineteen seventy three. When Trump talks about

1250
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 16: the carnage in the heartlands of the United States, he's

1251
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 16: completely right. Of course, he uses this to exploit the

1252
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 16: people who vote for him and trust him, and I

1253
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 16: think they trust him in a manner which they will

1254
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 16: live to regret one at some point. But we've seen

1255
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 16: all this before. Now let's get to the point. Is

1256
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 16: this going to work or not? Well, I don't think

1257
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 16: it's going to work. I think that it's not going

1258
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 16: to work from the perspective of the mega base who

1259
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 16: put their trust in Trump to bring back a sufficient

1260
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 16: number of jobs and equality of jobs that would somehow

1261
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 16: restore their capacity to dream, the American dream. And the

1262
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 16: reason is not that capital is not going to rush

1263
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 16: to the United States. I have no doubt that it

1264
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 16: is already rushing into the United States. I've spoken to

1265
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:40,480
Speaker 16: people in Germany, I've spoken to people in France, I've

1266
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 16: spoken to people in Japan, and they are increasing very

1267
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:50,000
Speaker 16: substantially the amount of investment they are going to be

1268
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 16: putting into the United States. That is not a problem.

1269
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 16: Capital is flowing already in the United States. But I

1270
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 16: don't think the number of jobs is going to be

1271
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 16: proportional to the amount of capital. Because if you think

1272
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:06,520
Speaker 16: about take Apple for instance, when Apple introduced manufacturing again

1273
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 16: in the United States some years ago, they built that

1274
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 16: factory that makes their laptops MacBook pros in somewhere near Austin, Texas. Well,

1275
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 16: the number of jobs was miniskilled because of automation. So

1276
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:24,840
Speaker 16: a lot of the new manufacturing capacity is going to

1277
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:26,280
Speaker 16: create a jobless search.

1278
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 7: So this is problem number one.

1279
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:29,520
Speaker 16: But allow me to tell you what I think is

1280
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 16: the real the real danger that Trump should be thinking about,

1281
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 16: you know, especially during.

1282
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 7: The night keeping him awake.

1283
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 16: If I were him, I would worry about success because

1284
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 16: if he is success in bringing back manufacturing to the

1285
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 16: United States to the extent that he says that he will,

1286
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 16: which I don't think he will. But let's say that

1287
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 16: he does. Then what happens Then the trade DEFs of

1288
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 16: the United States shrinks. But the great deficit of the

1289
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 16: United States is the flip side of the massive rents

1290
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 16: extracted from the global economy by American redeers. Because, come

1291
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 16: to think of it, it is the American trade deficit

1292
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 16: which keeps German factories churning, Japanese factories and Chinese factories.

1293
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:23,959
Speaker 16: And it is the dollars that these capitalists in Germany,

1294
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 16: Japan and in China collect, which they accumulate and then

1295
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:32,680
Speaker 16: they bring it back to or send it to New

1296
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 16: York to Wall State to be recycled in the form

1297
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:40,680
Speaker 16: of US government debt, treasuries, some equities, and a lot

1298
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 16: of real estate. So the reason why financial markets have

1299
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 16: been doing so well over the last forty years or so,

1300
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:54,639
Speaker 16: the reason why realtors like Trump have been amassing these

1301
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:57,719
Speaker 16: gigantic rents for the last forty years is.

1302
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:00,560
Speaker 7: The American trade deficity. So what happens when eliminated.

1303
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 16: If he succeeds in eliminating, he's going to have some

1304
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 16: really very cross re reenteers, financiers, and realtors. His tribe

1305
01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:13,799
Speaker 16: are going to be living with him. Can he sustain

1306
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 16: that or would he choose to betray the working class

1307
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:18,080
Speaker 16: that voted for him?

1308
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 7: I suspect it will be the letter.

1309
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 1: And so yeah, so what would that look like?

1310
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 6: So let's say the rentier class is now getting pinched,

1311
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 6: and it's incredible irony that it is a kingpin of

1312
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 6: the rentier class that you know, he's literally a real

1313
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 6: estate developer that is, that is leading this operation that

1314
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 6: that then pinches people like him?

1315
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 1: What what? What?

1316
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 12: Then?

1317
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 6: What then happens if you no longer have these dollars

1318
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:50,320
Speaker 6: you know, flowing out to German factories, Chinese factories, Japanese

1319
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 6: factories and then recycled back into into Wall Street and

1320
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 6: then circulated throughout the US rentier class?

1321
01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 1: Like what?

1322
01:09:57,760 --> 01:09:57,840
Speaker 12: So?

1323
01:09:57,920 --> 01:09:58,880
Speaker 1: What what does happen?

1324
01:09:59,600 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 5: Like?

1325
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 6: How do the how do the what are the factories do?

1326
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 6: What are the and what are the rentiers do?

1327
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:04,880
Speaker 7: Well?

1328
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 16: You see, I don't think we will reach the point

1329
01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:08,760
Speaker 16: where they're in tears.

1330
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 7: Interests will be so seriously jeopardized.

1331
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:17,760
Speaker 16: That is, even if the trumpion playbook is implemented and

1332
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 16: starts working and the trade deficits starts shrinking, at some

1333
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 16: point the administration itself will stop it from shrinking. They

1334
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:31,000
Speaker 16: will say, okay, well, we have reduced it by I

1335
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:36,439
Speaker 16: don't know what percentage. We have recalibrated, rebalanced the dollar

1336
01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 16: world and the manufacturing world, the US manufacturing world to

1337
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 16: some extent, and that's enough.

1338
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:43,960
Speaker 7: And now we are going to do.

1339
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:46,080
Speaker 16: Other things like, for instance, we are going to give

1340
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:50,440
Speaker 16: even more tax cuts. We are going to allow Elmask

1341
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:57,040
Speaker 16: to go crazy with his uh you know, tesla autonomously

1342
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 16: driven vehicles, deregulate completely, put all our eggs in the

1343
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:05,799
Speaker 16: big tech basket, which is where the United States still

1344
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:10,559
Speaker 16: has a significant advantage visa vidas of the world and

1345
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:15,639
Speaker 16: to some extent China, and accumulate trends in that regard.

1346
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 16: But that will create political cares because the megabase will

1347
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,080
Speaker 16: have been betrayed firstly by Obama in two thousand and eight,

1348
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:27,320
Speaker 16: then by Biden, and now by Trump two point zero.

1349
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:34,640
Speaker 16: And therefore nothing good is going to transpire when it

1350
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:38,760
Speaker 16: comes to the quality of what we call our democratic

1351
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,240
Speaker 16: process here in the West, be.

1352
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:43,599
Speaker 4: Honest, very focus. Thank you so much for joining us

1353
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 4: as was fascinating and very helpful. We appreciate it.

1354
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 7: Thank you. I enjoyed it.

1355
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 6: Former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy was on Bill Maher talking

1356
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:55,840
Speaker 6: about AOC and Bernie.

1357
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:58,760
Speaker 1: Let's roll over this. They gained the system, they.

1358
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:02,440
Speaker 17: Changed the horizon for twenty twenty eight in the Democratic

1359
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:03,559
Speaker 17: primary right now.

1360
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:04,839
Speaker 7: Yeah, Bernie and AOC.

1361
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 17: No, they got the biggest crowds.

1362
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 7: That doesn't matter.

1363
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:10,400
Speaker 8: It wants sustain itself.

1364
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 17: But right now they have no leader, you know. But

1365
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 17: this is the thing the Republican Party has to understand too.

1366
01:12:16,320 --> 01:12:20,320
Speaker 17: Both parties lost in the last election. Trump won, okay,

1367
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:22,640
Speaker 17: and I don't know if that's going to transfer. We

1368
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:24,840
Speaker 17: should have won four more seats in the Senate if

1369
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 17: you look at the last seventy races for the Senate,

1370
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 17: sixty nine and folly.

1371
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:28,800
Speaker 8: But exactly that.

1372
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 4: I think it's more versus Younkin.

1373
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:32,840
Speaker 17: That's where I see it, Youngkin would be. I think

1374
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 17: it's going to go back, get adjacent, and then Vansen

1375
01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:39,600
Speaker 17: Junior will fight it out for that crowd. You're the

1376
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:42,320
Speaker 17: AOC and Bernie and who's at the top of taking

1377
01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 17: a lead right now?

1378
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 1: Who's at the.

1379
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 17: Top of that ticket, Kevin, Because if it's if it's

1380
01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 17: not Bernie, what he's going to be vice president?

1381
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:51,040
Speaker 15: And wait his turn, it would be Vernie's been running

1382
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 15: each time.

1383
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:52,559
Speaker 8: I'm just saying who's in the.

1384
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 14: Lead right now.

1385
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:54,680
Speaker 17: I don't think that nobody ends up.

1386
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,719
Speaker 12: But big crowds don't necessarily mean who's the right candidate?

1387
01:12:57,760 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 7: You know when I started.

1388
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:01,360
Speaker 17: But it drives, It drives where the ideas are going

1389
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:03,439
Speaker 17: to go. Is going to drive them money for a while.

1390
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:04,920
Speaker 12: It doesn't make them the winner.

1391
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:06,360
Speaker 8: It doesn't make it a winner.

1392
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:08,599
Speaker 17: You'll have to wait till you'll get two years out

1393
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 17: and then you'll start seeing these governors they start showing solutions.

1394
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 17: You also have to know what is the issue going

1395
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:15,960
Speaker 17: to be. Are we going to have a foreign policy issue?

1396
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 17: We're going to have an economic issue? And who's been

1397
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:21,040
Speaker 17: the best and leading in that? But right now, for

1398
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 17: the Democrats, who's going to lead for the next two years?

1399
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:26,639
Speaker 17: The money is going to AOC outraised everybody in the House,

1400
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 17: and it's all small doughters. This is exactly where Trump

1401
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 17: was when no one gave him a chance. Is empty.

1402
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:35,040
Speaker 17: He outraised everybody else. So that's where the base is at,

1403
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:38,760
Speaker 17: right and so what will happen. It'll move after the

1404
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 17: next midterm elections.

1405
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:42,800
Speaker 6: We do know what AOC will not be doing, and

1406
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:46,559
Speaker 6: that's running for the top spot on the Oversight Committit.

1407
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 1: If you can put a zero zero here, she.

1408
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:53,640
Speaker 6: Says, Jerry Connolly stepped aside, who had beat her in

1409
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:56,519
Speaker 6: the race for ranking them on oversight, and she says

1410
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 6: she's not running this time. She says, quote is actually

1411
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:02,040
Speaker 6: clear to me that the underlying dynamics in the caucus

1412
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:05,360
Speaker 6: have not shifted with respect to seniority as much as

1413
01:14:05,439 --> 01:14:08,360
Speaker 6: I think would be necessary. And so I believe I'll

1414
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,840
Speaker 6: be staying put at Energy and Commerce unquote, because if

1415
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:14,400
Speaker 6: she would be ranking member, then she couldn't serve on

1416
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:16,759
Speaker 6: Energy and Commerce Committee, which is an a committee.

1417
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:18,920
Speaker 1: It's very they used.

1418
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 6: To be a powerful committee back when committees mattered. Meeties

1419
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 6: don't really matter anymore. But it's not there's not zero.

1420
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 5: It sounds like what she's saying that, if you read

1421
01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:29,320
Speaker 5: between the lines, is that leadership is still trying to

1422
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:31,240
Speaker 5: wield significant power over oversight.

1423
01:14:31,360 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 6: She feels like, if I don't think it's leadership, I

1424
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:37,600
Speaker 6: think what she's saying is what she means, which is

1425
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 6: that the caucus itself is so filled with people who

1426
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:51,080
Speaker 6: believe in the dogma of seniority and that you rise

1427
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:53,719
Speaker 6: up through the ranks based on how many terms you've served,

1428
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 6: and that they're not willing to upend that even at

1429
01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:00,639
Speaker 6: this moment, that seniority trumps everything else. And so if

1430
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 6: because you know there's a there's there's a very uh.

1431
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 6: The incentive for each member of Congress is to support

1432
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:11,360
Speaker 6: the seniority system because it's not a merit system.

1433
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 1: It just means if you stick.

1434
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 6: Around long enough, you will matter. If you suck, it

1435
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:18,880
Speaker 6: doesn't matter, nothing matters. You will eventually get your turn.

1436
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:20,720
Speaker 6: As Connley called, he said, I've never gotten to be.

1437
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 1: A ranking member.

1438
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:23,559
Speaker 4: Don't ask Tony Hoyer about that, though.

1439
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:27,679
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the very top thing. You got to compete.

1440
01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:28,880
Speaker 18: Uh.

1441
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:30,920
Speaker 1: And yes, because he was he had.

1442
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:35,680
Speaker 6: Six years of seniority on on Pelosi, who he allegedly

1443
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 6: allegedly went on a date when their interns back in

1444
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:43,040
Speaker 6: the fifties, which is hilarious. It was the fifties interning

1445
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:44,400
Speaker 6: from a Maryland senator.

1446
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 4: Genuinely hilarious. Before the Civil Rights Act is.

1447
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 1: When they well won a date.

1448
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:51,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, even before the fifty seven Civil Rights Act, many events.

1449
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:54,360
Speaker 6: So she's saying that she wouldn't have a chance. And

1450
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:57,799
Speaker 6: I think losing once is hey, you take your shot,

1451
01:15:58,320 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 6: you show your play on the inside, to play the

1452
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:02,679
Speaker 6: inside game. You maybe even have a shot at winning.

1453
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:06,280
Speaker 6: You lose, you know, then you go out and go

1454
01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 6: back to what you were doing. Lose twice, you start

1455
01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:13,160
Speaker 6: to get the stench of loser on you. So's so

1456
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 6: she's just not going.

1457
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:14,759
Speaker 1: To go for it this time.

1458
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:16,880
Speaker 5: And this is becoming something of a panic because we

1459
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:17,840
Speaker 5: have this other clip.

1460
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:19,240
Speaker 4: This is D two.

1461
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:23,200
Speaker 5: So not only was Bill Maher pushing back vociferously in

1462
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 5: that clip to Kevin McCarthy's point in a way that

1463
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 5: you know, I think maybe did reek of a little

1464
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 5: bit of I shouldn't say little, but significant concern.

1465
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:35,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, wishful thinking in his party. Right, Please tell me

1466
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:36,280
Speaker 6: this can't be true.

1467
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:39,040
Speaker 5: Well, and this is an interesting divide on the right

1468
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 5: is that you have people like Kevin McCarthy, who I

1469
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:43,120
Speaker 5: think are accurately pointing out that this is where the

1470
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:45,599
Speaker 5: energy is on the left, and then you have people

1471
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:48,360
Speaker 5: who say AOC's political career on.

1472
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:50,320
Speaker 4: A national level is done on the water, done in

1473
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:50,679
Speaker 4: the water.

1474
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:54,400
Speaker 5: She is a joke, she's way too radical, but she's

1475
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 5: both of those things can't be.

1476
01:16:56,800 --> 01:16:57,960
Speaker 4: True at the same time.

1477
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:00,760
Speaker 5: And so there's some people on the right like, it's it,

1478
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:03,720
Speaker 5: it's AOC, and then oh, but also AOC is a

1479
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:07,639
Speaker 5: disaster for Democrats, so let's go ahead and enroll D two.

1480
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 5: This is part of an MSNBC panel where they started

1481
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:10,800
Speaker 5: to talk about this.

1482
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:14,160
Speaker 19: They've got to get out of the policy discussion and

1483
01:17:14,200 --> 01:17:17,360
Speaker 19: the policy fight and focus on a purpose. They've got

1484
01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 19: to broaden the party, and they've got to go with

1485
01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:23,640
Speaker 19: a forty year old because they do well with Obama,

1486
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 19: Jack Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and they've got to They've got

1487
01:17:27,439 --> 01:17:29,760
Speaker 19: to well they they've got to get So to me,

1488
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 19: I would get in a room and call a summit,

1489
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:35,120
Speaker 19: and I would say just.

1490
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:38,559
Speaker 4: To not go off his hides behind a clipboard. That's

1491
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:39,840
Speaker 4: the Democrat Party.

1492
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:43,439
Speaker 19: The Democratic Party will never listen to Aaron, but they

1493
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 19: should hear erin and say the following.

1494
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:49,000
Speaker 8: You guys are in disarray. You're having a civil war.

1495
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:53,280
Speaker 19: You're going hard left with AOC and Bernie very bad mistake.

1496
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:54,320
Speaker 7: Country doesn't want that.

1497
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:56,440
Speaker 8: I can't tell.

1498
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:07,639
Speaker 13: I know, but point look California we got twenty six

1499
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:11,080
Speaker 13: thousand people, twenty thousand in Salt Lake City thirty six

1500
01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 13: thousand California, twelve thousand, in Idaho, Denver, Colorado thirty four thousand,

1501
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:17,280
Speaker 13: and on Arizona twenty three thousand.

1502
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:21,559
Speaker 18: I mean what Kirts need to do is in power

1503
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:24,320
Speaker 18: of the Alyssa Slockins, the tim Ryans, the seth Multons,

1504
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:27,920
Speaker 18: the moderate young Democrats that they've been head padding for

1505
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:29,880
Speaker 18: the last ten years and saying just wait, you're child.

1506
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:31,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, but when is till their turn?

1507
01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:34,759
Speaker 13: But let me ask, I mean the all of those people.

1508
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:36,880
Speaker 13: Do you think any of those people have to take

1509
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:38,679
Speaker 13: to run for president and win?

1510
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:38,960
Speaker 5: No?

1511
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:41,479
Speaker 18: Because the Democratic Party has not conditioned them.

1512
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:41,800
Speaker 4: No.

1513
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 13: I mean in the in a perfect world, do they

1514
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:46,880
Speaker 13: really have what it takes to run for president of

1515
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:48,040
Speaker 13: these United States?

1516
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:48,719
Speaker 12: And when.

1517
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 4: Senate candidates they're.

1518
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:53,120
Speaker 18: Greed, Well, I think they have a better chance than

1519
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:55,600
Speaker 18: the progressive people that alien.

1520
01:18:56,680 --> 01:18:59,080
Speaker 5: I feel like Stefan watching that clip, like this MSN

1521
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 5: or the CNN pannel that's what it was, has everything.

1522
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 5: It has Anthony Scamucci, a man in a cowboy hat

1523
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:09,080
Speaker 5: and sc cup in a demon gumpsuit screaming about Alyssa's luck.

1524
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 1: Well, it's such a funny network for it.

1525
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:13,479
Speaker 6: It's such a funny network because the MSABC is almost

1526
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:18,519
Speaker 6: the same that it's a center left network and they've

1527
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:23,880
Speaker 6: been covering the Democratic Party sympathetically for you know, for

1528
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:27,000
Speaker 6: ten years, ten plus years, and Bernie Sanders rose in

1529
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:30,880
Speaker 6: twenty fifteen, and they still don't have as far as

1530
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 6: I can tell. So definitely not in that panel. I

1531
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:36,240
Speaker 6: don't think anywhere on the network somebody who aligns with

1532
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:41,120
Speaker 6: that major faction of the party. Yeah, not just people

1533
01:19:41,320 --> 01:19:43,640
Speaker 6: like looking at them like zoo creatures.

1534
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 5: They have like Bernie curious people like a like maybe

1535
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:47,640
Speaker 5: like a Van Jones, I.

1536
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:50,360
Speaker 1: Van Jones, I know, I know. He just took a wall.

1537
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:52,040
Speaker 1: You take a hundred million dollars from Jeff Bezos a

1538
01:19:52,040 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 1: couple of years ago.

1539
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:56,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so this isn't it.

1540
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,799
Speaker 6: Was a mauist in like the nineties. It was literally

1541
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 6: like uh now as the activists in San Francisco.

1542
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:04,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was why he was.

1543
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 1: That would be they don't have they didn't have him

1544
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:08,360
Speaker 1: on that.

1545
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:10,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, it's amazing there are like this is again,

1546
01:20:10,520 --> 01:20:11,720
Speaker 5: it's something that a lot of people in the right

1547
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:12,880
Speaker 5: don't understandbout these networks.

1548
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:15,920
Speaker 4: They are center left. They just actually hate the left left.

1549
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:18,840
Speaker 5: It's almost more than they hate the center right. Given

1550
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:21,920
Speaker 5: that Anthony Scaramucci was on that panel. Let's take a

1551
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:25,160
Speaker 5: look at AOC being disrupted by protests. I think this

1552
01:20:25,240 --> 01:20:29,280
Speaker 5: was at a town hall. This is D three.

1553
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:58,559
Speaker 6: Question, So sorry, that was pretty hard to hear, but

1554
01:20:58,840 --> 01:21:01,000
Speaker 6: you probably saw clips of it going around. Basically, it's

1555
01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:03,800
Speaker 6: somebody protesting her out a town hall, saying you're a

1556
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:05,760
Speaker 6: war criminal. What are you going to do about the

1557
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:10,160
Speaker 6: genocide in Palestine, the genocide in Gaza?

1558
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:12,080
Speaker 1: And I do think for.

1559
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:16,280
Speaker 6: Maybe ever, but for a very long time, she's going

1560
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:20,040
Speaker 6: to have to answer for her convention speech where she

1561
01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:25,160
Speaker 6: said that Kamala Harris is working tirelessly for a ceasefire,

1562
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:29,960
Speaker 6: because at the time, nobody really believed that she was

1563
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:32,720
Speaker 6: working tirelessly for a ceasefire, Nora that Biden was working

1564
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:36,160
Speaker 6: tirelessly for a ceasefire. We've since had Israeli officials come

1565
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:39,320
Speaker 6: out and say, yeah, the Biden administration never actually.

1566
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:43,720
Speaker 1: Pressured us to reach a ceasefire. So it raises the

1567
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:47,760
Speaker 1: question of was the Biden administration lying to AOC or

1568
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:50,520
Speaker 1: was she lying to the DNC.

1569
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:52,840
Speaker 6: And if they were lying to her, why couldn't she

1570
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:55,960
Speaker 6: see that it was a lie that day, I believe

1571
01:21:55,960 --> 01:21:57,479
Speaker 6: it was, or maybe it was the next it was

1572
01:21:57,520 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 6: the next day at a protest or at a public

1573
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:06,280
Speaker 6: event in where was it, Chicago? Ilhan Omar held a

1574
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:09,160
Speaker 6: spoke at a rally where she said, you know they're

1575
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:12,160
Speaker 6: not they're not working tirelessly. She quoted AOC or a

1576
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:14,519
Speaker 6: fellow squad memerics quoter saying they're not working tires and

1577
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:19,080
Speaker 6: Omar brought that up again in the last couple of weeks, saying,

1578
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:21,320
Speaker 6: you know, they lied to us when they said they

1579
01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:24,560
Speaker 6: were working tiresly. And she's so kind of direct shots

1580
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:27,759
Speaker 6: at AOC, and she's never, as far as I've seen,

1581
01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 6: kind of you know, confronted that directly. So if she wants,

1582
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:35,479
Speaker 6: if she does end up running for president, that's going

1583
01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:37,320
Speaker 6: to be something that she's going to have to address.

1584
01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:42,040
Speaker 1: What was her because she has been you know, she

1585
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:43,200
Speaker 1: took a.

1586
01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:45,120
Speaker 6: Week or two longer than some others to use the

1587
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:47,080
Speaker 6: word genocide, but she said it very early. She was

1588
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:51,680
Speaker 6: one of the first sponsors of a ceasefire resolution, but

1589
01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:55,960
Speaker 6: then she takes some other votes that gets that get

1590
01:22:55,960 --> 01:23:00,799
Speaker 6: people frustrated. So you know, from her perspective, she's basically

1591
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:03,519
Speaker 6: done everything she can. From the perspective of her critics,

1592
01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:07,320
Speaker 6: she's lying about the Biden administration working to quote unquote

1593
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 6: working tirelessly towards ceasefire and undermining pressure on the Biden

1594
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:12,439
Speaker 6: administration to actually do that.

1595
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:14,640
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, And when we were on the ground at

1596
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 4: the DNC.

1597
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:17,360
Speaker 5: It was easy to sense a lot of cynicism aboutes

1598
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:19,640
Speaker 5: among the people that we were talking to. Let's put

1599
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 5: D four up on the screen, because this is another

1600
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:25,799
Speaker 5: sort of shot in the arm, perhaps for the ascendant left.

1601
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:30,760
Speaker 5: Ryan Brian kem announced Kempt announced yesterday Georgia governor that

1602
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:33,080
Speaker 5: he will not be running for Senate, and the New

1603
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:36,439
Speaker 5: York Times headline actually adds Osoff's team must have been

1604
01:23:36,479 --> 01:23:40,599
Speaker 5: stoked about this headline quote giving asoff a lift. Osoff

1605
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:43,760
Speaker 5: nation is rising up. We'll put D five here on

1606
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:46,160
Speaker 5: the screen, Ryan, and maybe you can explain it for

1607
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:46,960
Speaker 5: the offline left.

1608
01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:51,800
Speaker 6: Old Germantum So what among his many posts about this yesterday,

1609
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:58,680
Speaker 6: basically he's saying, asof vance race in twenty twenty eight,

1610
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:00,719
Speaker 6: would be similar to JFK.

1611
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 1: Nixon.

1612
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:06,920
Speaker 6: So comparing as off to JFK advance to Nixon Nixon

1613
01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:10,559
Speaker 6: in sixty not that I don't think it's that off

1614
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:11,559
Speaker 6: in an interesting way.

1615
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:14,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know. Is this not crazy?

1616
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:18,320
Speaker 6: You know, there's a lot of cynicism about ostof But

1617
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:21,280
Speaker 6: like I've said on this show, before you look into

1618
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:30,120
Speaker 6: his actual record, you know, investigative journalist, and his run

1619
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:33,520
Speaker 6: is run as a pretty strong kind of populist progressive

1620
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:37,920
Speaker 6: in Georgia. He didn't use the terms like Green New

1621
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:39,680
Speaker 6: Deal and Medicare for all, but when you look at

1622
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:42,719
Speaker 6: what he was saying, he was supportive of those basic

1623
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:47,600
Speaker 6: ideas but talking about them in a way that he

1624
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:51,600
Speaker 6: thought would resonate with you know, majority of Georgians.

1625
01:24:52,160 --> 01:24:55,040
Speaker 1: And so if he is able to win.

1626
01:24:54,920 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 6: Reelection in twenty twenty six, then yeah, he's a top

1627
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:02,639
Speaker 6: tier front runner for twenty twenty eight.

1628
01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:03,559
Speaker 4: It's super interesting.

1629
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:06,400
Speaker 5: Right, let's move on to the gain of function news

1630
01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:09,760
Speaker 5: that broke yesterday. We can go ahead and roll this

1631
01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:12,840
Speaker 5: clip of Robert F. Kennedy Junior, now obviously Secretary of

1632
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:16,760
Speaker 5: Health and Human Services talking as Donald Trump signs as

1633
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:21,080
Speaker 5: one of those classics, Donald Trump second administration EO signings

1634
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:24,200
Speaker 5: in the Oval Office where he's flanked by Marty McCay, J.

1635
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:26,439
Speaker 4: Baticharia, and Robert F. Kennedy Junior.

1636
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:30,920
Speaker 5: He is signing an executive order that against gain of

1637
01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:31,960
Speaker 5: function research.

1638
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:33,439
Speaker 4: So let's just take a listen to this.

1639
01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:36,880
Speaker 20: As a E one, GAANA function is and it's worked

1640
01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:40,400
Speaker 20: at the end of GAINA function research funding by the

1641
01:25:40,439 --> 01:25:44,800
Speaker 20: federal government, DNA halls of controls, by project corporations on

1642
01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:48,640
Speaker 20: GATA function studies. This was a kind of study that

1643
01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:53,440
Speaker 20: was engaged in by the United States military and intelligence agencies,

1644
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:59,639
Speaker 20: begetting in nineteen forty seven. By nineteen sixty nine, CIA

1645
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:03,479
Speaker 20: that they had reached nuclear equivalents that they could kill

1646
01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:08,000
Speaker 20: the entire US population for twenty nine cents person.

1647
01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 5: So Robert Kenny Junior went on for a couple of

1648
01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:14,080
Speaker 5: minutes there, going back into the history of gain and

1649
01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:16,799
Speaker 5: function research. But what the EO did was restrict federal

1650
01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:20,639
Speaker 5: funding for research known as quote gain of function. And

1651
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:23,799
Speaker 5: what's interesting about that, Ryan, is that Facci likes to stretch.

1652
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:26,000
Speaker 5: You know, he used to say he was enhancing pathogens.

1653
01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:29,280
Speaker 5: You may remember that infamous exchange she had with Senator

1654
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:32,880
Speaker 5: Rand Paul, but it wasn't quite quote unquote gain of function.

1655
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:35,880
Speaker 5: So maybe there are still ways for the medical establishment

1656
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:38,519
Speaker 5: that wants to continue desperately many people want to continue

1657
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:41,320
Speaker 5: doing gain and function research. Wiggling around the boundaries of this.

1658
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:44,920
Speaker 5: But I think you actually checked in with eat write

1659
01:26:44,920 --> 01:26:45,080
Speaker 5: on this.

1660
01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:47,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I read the EO and it's it's pretty tight.

1661
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:52,000
Speaker 6: I mean, the the language is pretty tight, so I

1662
01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:55,040
Speaker 6: think it'll be difficult for them to them to get

1663
01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:59,000
Speaker 6: around it. But it really focuses in an annoying way

1664
01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:03,439
Speaker 6: on it says quote unquote countries of concern e g.

1665
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 1: China.

1666
01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:08,360
Speaker 6: It's like, okay, fine, whatever, but like it doesn't matter

1667
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:13,080
Speaker 6: where the research is done. Like you you get a

1668
01:27:13,080 --> 01:27:16,040
Speaker 6: pathogen out in the air, like it can be in Toledo,

1669
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:18,919
Speaker 6: it can be in China, it can be in Sierre Leone.

1670
01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:21,960
Speaker 6: Like people travel, there's airports everywhere.

1671
01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:22,400
Speaker 17: Hm.

1672
01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:27,960
Speaker 6: So like just focusing on countries of concern, it's it's

1673
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:31,840
Speaker 6: Trump's kind of obnoxious xenophobia manifesting in a place to

1674
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:33,880
Speaker 6: where it's like completely unnecessary.

1675
01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:35,719
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know if it makes anybody feel better

1676
01:27:35,720 --> 01:27:37,439
Speaker 5: if we're even doing it here, right, I mean.

1677
01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:41,360
Speaker 1: Maybe feel like why would that be better? Like, it's cool.

1678
01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:44,200
Speaker 6: We're gonna do all of our gain of function research

1679
01:27:44,360 --> 01:27:47,120
Speaker 6: on viruses in your backyard, not.

1680
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:48,439
Speaker 1: In China, North Carolina.

1681
01:27:48,479 --> 01:27:51,120
Speaker 6: It's gonna be it's gonna be downtown watching DC. You're

1682
01:27:51,120 --> 01:27:54,840
Speaker 6: gonna be fine. You gotta, you know, make America great

1683
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:57,000
Speaker 6: again for gain function research.

1684
01:27:57,200 --> 01:27:57,519
Speaker 1: But yeah.

1685
01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:01,639
Speaker 6: So I asked Richard Ebright about RFK Junior's claim there, which,

1686
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:04,840
Speaker 6: if you could hear him, what he was saying was

1687
01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:11,759
Speaker 6: gain of function research has basically produced nothing of value

1688
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:16,040
Speaker 6: for the scientific community. And so Ebright, he's a molector

1689
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:21,080
Speaker 6: or biologist at Rutgers. He's an outspoken critic of a

1690
01:28:21,120 --> 01:28:23,000
Speaker 6: lot of the scientists involved with his research and also

1691
01:28:23,040 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 6: the research.

1692
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:25,080
Speaker 1: So I asked him for his take.

1693
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:30,840
Speaker 6: I was like, really, like, blanket zero nothing, And he

1694
01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:34,000
Speaker 6: says it has added nothing of substantive value. It has

1695
01:28:34,080 --> 01:28:38,200
Speaker 6: had zero civilian applications, It has not contributed to the

1696
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:41,280
Speaker 6: development of any vaccine or therapeutic agent, and it is

1697
01:28:41,320 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 6: not contributed to preventing or responding to pandemics. I mean,

1698
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:53,720
Speaker 6: its origin and it's financing is mostly around bioweapons, like

1699
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:56,599
Speaker 6: in the military capacity, both whether it's the US investing

1700
01:28:56,640 --> 01:29:02,200
Speaker 6: in a Pentagon or or the Chinese military. That's you know,

1701
01:29:02,320 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 6: that's what really gave it its boosts, and particularly after

1702
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:07,920
Speaker 6: the anthrax attacks back back in two thousand and one,

1703
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:10,519
Speaker 6: two thousand and two, that's when all of this money

1704
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:14,320
Speaker 6: started flowing into it. So and they've kind of then

1705
01:29:14,360 --> 01:29:20,639
Speaker 6: retconned some rationale for some civilian applications. But according to EBRAI,

1706
01:29:20,760 --> 01:29:23,280
Speaker 6: so far like zero, like nothing has come of it.

1707
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 6: And it's it's interesting to think about the Wuhan Institute

1708
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:31,559
Speaker 6: of Virology, so like the goal of that institute was

1709
01:29:32,120 --> 01:29:37,799
Speaker 6: to identify pandemics early pathoges that could be of concern

1710
01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:42,920
Speaker 6: to become become a pandemic before they spread too far.

1711
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:48,080
Speaker 6: I think the evidence is clear that they produced the pandemic.

1712
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:49,640
Speaker 1: Setting that aside, let's say that.

1713
01:29:49,600 --> 01:29:55,760
Speaker 6: They didn't, but it started in Wuhan, like it, So

1714
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:59,080
Speaker 6: it started like next door to them. Their whole job

1715
01:29:59,280 --> 01:30:04,839
Speaker 6: is to around the entire world identify potential pandemic viruses

1716
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:08,479
Speaker 6: and then control them before they become a virus. It

1717
01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:11,000
Speaker 6: happened right there, and you still didn't stop it. So

1718
01:30:11,120 --> 01:30:15,519
Speaker 6: at very best, you didn't start the pandemic, but it

1719
01:30:15,560 --> 01:30:17,439
Speaker 6: was next door to you, and you didn't stop it.

1720
01:30:17,479 --> 01:30:19,840
Speaker 6: How are you going to stop one that happens, you know,

1721
01:30:20,240 --> 01:30:23,240
Speaker 6: thousands of miles away from you anyway, So it's not

1722
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:25,080
Speaker 6: a not a great not a great track record.

1723
01:30:26,960 --> 01:30:27,760
Speaker 1: That brings us to.

1724
01:30:29,280 --> 01:30:33,120
Speaker 6: Our our friend of the show, Jeffy Sacks, who chaired

1725
01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:37,160
Speaker 6: UH the pant who chaired the commission that looked into

1726
01:30:37,960 --> 01:30:44,559
Speaker 6: the origin of COVID. And so speaking of Wuhan, there's

1727
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:48,280
Speaker 6: there's another you know, UH locale that also gets brought

1728
01:30:48,360 --> 01:30:50,760
Speaker 6: up here. Let's roll Jeffrey Sachs here.

1729
01:30:51,200 --> 01:30:56,280
Speaker 21: I'll tell you a sad truth, also a little surprising,

1730
01:30:57,439 --> 01:31:00,400
Speaker 21: and I have to admit what I'm about to tell

1731
01:31:00,439 --> 01:31:05,080
Speaker 21: you is only ninety nine percent sure. But my view,

1732
01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:12,960
Speaker 21: based on very extensive work over the last four and

1733
01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:19,040
Speaker 21: a half years, is that COVID came from the University

1734
01:31:19,040 --> 01:31:25,280
Speaker 21: of North Carolina, which is the leading researcher on beta coronaviruses,

1735
01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:30,280
Speaker 21: working with the US government on a set of grant

1736
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:37,200
Speaker 21: proposals that identified putting in the viral change that created

1737
01:31:37,320 --> 01:31:42,240
Speaker 21: Sar's cove two. It's a grim truth, it's ugly, it's

1738
01:31:42,280 --> 01:31:46,040
Speaker 21: been hidden from view. The reason I mentioned in this

1739
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:51,280
Speaker 21: context is we don't have any global governance that is

1740
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:57,400
Speaker 21: effective right now to control the manipulation of dangerous pathogens

1741
01:31:58,280 --> 01:32:04,320
Speaker 21: like the manipulation that created the pandemic and when it happened,

1742
01:32:05,040 --> 01:32:11,280
Speaker 21: and officially it took seven million deaths, but probably if

1743
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:16,040
Speaker 21: you count all of the deaths associated with COVID, it

1744
01:32:16,120 --> 01:32:21,160
Speaker 21: was probably closer to twenty million deaths. Even when that happens,

1745
01:32:21,240 --> 01:32:26,920
Speaker 21: it's never properly investigated, it's covered up, it's hidden from view.

1746
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:30,040
Speaker 1: And so that's actually quite a plausible claim.

1747
01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:32,360
Speaker 6: Like you, if you want to look into it, just

1748
01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:34,960
Speaker 6: google kind of Ralph Barrack, who's the head of the

1749
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 6: program there, who was working directly with people in the

1750
01:32:39,320 --> 01:32:42,519
Speaker 6: Wuhan lab. He was he was you know, he led

1751
01:32:42,560 --> 01:32:45,000
Speaker 6: the project that came up with basically the recipe that

1752
01:32:45,080 --> 01:32:47,160
Speaker 6: appears to be the thing that led to the creation

1753
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:52,160
Speaker 6: of COVID later. And I think when you understand the

1754
01:32:52,280 --> 01:32:57,320
Speaker 6: role of UNC in the origin of COVID, it helps

1755
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:02,000
Speaker 6: to explain why there wasn't an investment gation because.

1756
01:33:01,800 --> 01:33:04,920
Speaker 4: Well, I mean even our own funding of Luhan either way.

1757
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:07,040
Speaker 6: Right, and so yeah, from so from early on, you're like,

1758
01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:09,080
Speaker 6: wait a minute, if this was the Chinese and it

1759
01:33:09,080 --> 01:33:13,240
Speaker 6: happened in Wuhan. Will where's where's the US propaganda apparatus

1760
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:18,960
Speaker 6: to start? You know, staber rattling and you know, you know,

1761
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:20,840
Speaker 6: banging the drum about how awful China is.

1762
01:33:20,880 --> 01:33:23,200
Speaker 5: If anything, it was if you were blaming China, the

1763
01:33:23,439 --> 01:33:25,320
Speaker 5: Nancy Pelosi was calling you racist.

1764
01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:27,640
Speaker 6: Right right, So and so it's like, oh, oh, I

1765
01:33:27,680 --> 01:33:31,680
Speaker 6: see why because the US was intimately involved in this

1766
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:35,840
Speaker 6: as well, and so both China and the US then

1767
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:39,760
Speaker 6: have motivation to be like what you say, it was,

1768
01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:44,680
Speaker 6: there's rednecks in Wuhan, you know, buying pangolins.

1769
01:33:45,240 --> 01:33:46,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's let's go with that.

1770
01:33:47,320 --> 01:33:48,760
Speaker 4: Sounds right. Yeah.

1771
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:52,599
Speaker 5: So finally we back at the Hill hosted a lot

1772
01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:54,719
Speaker 5: you set this up. It was a fascinating debate between

1773
01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:59,320
Speaker 5: JOHNS Hopkins professor named Gigi gromfol and an MIT professor

1774
01:33:59,360 --> 01:34:02,200
Speaker 5: named Kevin as well. And this was like, I think

1775
01:34:02,240 --> 01:34:05,400
Speaker 5: we went for an hour having a pro gain of

1776
01:34:05,439 --> 01:34:08,240
Speaker 5: function person and an anti gain of function person talk

1777
01:34:08,280 --> 01:34:11,519
Speaker 5: about whether it's ultimately valuable and whether the costs are

1778
01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:13,720
Speaker 5: worth the benefits of doing the research. So, if you're

1779
01:34:13,720 --> 01:34:16,160
Speaker 5: curious in hearing out both sides, I would recommend taking

1780
01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:18,160
Speaker 5: a look back at that because it was very very

1781
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:20,280
Speaker 5: helpful for me to hear both of them.

1782
01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:22,760
Speaker 6: And we kept trying to pin her down on what

1783
01:34:22,960 --> 01:34:25,479
Speaker 6: have been the what has it produced?

1784
01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:26,000
Speaker 4: Right?

1785
01:34:26,479 --> 01:34:26,599
Speaker 20: Right?

1786
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:29,479
Speaker 1: Not that science, It's.

1787
01:34:29,280 --> 01:34:31,720
Speaker 6: Okay, Like science doesn't always produce results, Like that's what

1788
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:35,120
Speaker 6: science is. You have a hypothesis, you explore it, and

1789
01:34:35,120 --> 01:34:38,360
Speaker 6: sometimes it goes down a rabbit hole and you get

1790
01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:41,519
Speaker 6: and your hypothesis was wrong. So that alone is not

1791
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:43,759
Speaker 6: a reason not to do it. If it's extremely dangerous

1792
01:34:43,760 --> 01:34:45,559
Speaker 6: and you're putting a whole world at risk, that's kind

1793
01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:48,040
Speaker 6: of can be a reason not to do it. But

1794
01:34:48,200 --> 01:34:50,960
Speaker 6: she never You guys can go back and watch it

1795
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:53,760
Speaker 6: if you want. But like, to my mind, she never

1796
01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:59,559
Speaker 6: effectively presented to us anything that made us feel like, oh, okay,

1797
01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:03,680
Speaker 6: that is that is a benefit that we have derived

1798
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:07,960
Speaker 6: from this research, which can be weighed against the risk of.

1799
01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:10,320
Speaker 1: A global pandemic and millions of people dying. Yeah, I mean,

1800
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:11,760
Speaker 1: so then we can balance that out.

1801
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:18,439
Speaker 6: I was left with, well, we know the risks even

1802
01:35:18,479 --> 01:35:21,439
Speaker 6: if you don't think this happened in the lab, which

1803
01:35:21,439 --> 01:35:21,960
Speaker 6: I think it did.

1804
01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:24,680
Speaker 1: But even if you'd think it didn't, it could. Their

1805
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:25,240
Speaker 1: leaks all.

1806
01:35:25,120 --> 01:35:28,360
Speaker 6: The time, So we know the risk, but we don't

1807
01:35:28,400 --> 01:35:30,800
Speaker 6: know the benefits. We haven't seen anything yet.

1808
01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:33,719
Speaker 5: I remember wrapping that segment and being like, yeah, thanks

1809
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:36,519
Speaker 5: so much to both of you, hearing both of it out,

1810
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:39,080
Speaker 5: and Ryan, you just jumped in and you're like, think

1811
01:35:39,080 --> 01:35:40,160
Speaker 5: it's pretty clear who won.

1812
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:44,320
Speaker 1: Was like, oh my god, she didn't like that.

1813
01:35:44,520 --> 01:35:47,080
Speaker 5: I don't think so, but I was really to shoot

1814
01:35:47,080 --> 01:35:49,280
Speaker 5: the messenger. So yeah, go ahead and take a look

1815
01:35:49,280 --> 01:35:51,479
Speaker 5: at that if you're curious. And on that note, let's

1816
01:35:51,479 --> 01:35:53,439
Speaker 5: go ahead and get to our second guest of today's show.

1817
01:35:56,320 --> 01:36:00,240
Speaker 6: Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel has dropped charges against people

1818
01:36:00,280 --> 01:36:04,599
Speaker 6: that she rounded up recently for protesting against Israel's war

1819
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:07,760
Speaker 6: in gazif rolled F two here. This is vo You

1820
01:36:07,760 --> 01:36:10,080
Speaker 6: guys might remember this kind of viral footage that went

1821
01:36:10,120 --> 01:36:15,200
Speaker 6: around of the Michigan police backed up by the FBI,

1822
01:36:15,640 --> 01:36:20,719
Speaker 6: literally smashing their way into into people's homes, dragging people

1823
01:36:20,720 --> 01:36:23,760
Speaker 6: off and then and then charge and then charging them

1824
01:36:23,800 --> 01:36:27,679
Speaker 6: with you know, serious felonies and keeping them behind bars

1825
01:36:27,720 --> 01:36:31,519
Speaker 6: for quite some time they have. Now she has now

1826
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:35,800
Speaker 6: dropped those charges. And so we are joined by Henry

1827
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:40,479
Speaker 6: McKean Shapiro, who was one of the protesters who was

1828
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:45,040
Speaker 6: who was rounded up by Nessel and her federal accomplices

1829
01:36:45,479 --> 01:36:46,960
Speaker 6: ended up spending Henry Wood.

1830
01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:49,880
Speaker 1: Four days and behind bars before you were released. Is

1831
01:36:49,880 --> 01:36:50,240
Speaker 1: that right?

1832
01:36:50,920 --> 01:36:53,000
Speaker 12: Yeah? Actually, just a bit of the correction is that

1833
01:36:53,960 --> 01:36:55,080
Speaker 12: are the charges.

1834
01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:58,280
Speaker 22: The felony charges that were just dropped against me and

1835
01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:02,599
Speaker 22: six others yesterday are unrelated to the FBI raids.

1836
01:37:02,640 --> 01:37:04,599
Speaker 12: So it's the same prosecutor for them.

1837
01:37:05,479 --> 01:37:08,479
Speaker 22: But our charges come from back in September related to

1838
01:37:08,520 --> 01:37:09,679
Speaker 22: the U of M encampment.

1839
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:12,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, so actually walk us, walk us through why we

1840
01:37:13,040 --> 01:37:14,799
Speaker 6: ended up seeing these raids recently.

1841
01:37:14,880 --> 01:37:19,439
Speaker 1: So what what what charges resulted from the original encampment

1842
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:20,439
Speaker 1: and what was.

1843
01:37:20,400 --> 01:37:22,280
Speaker 4: The what's the relationship between both?

1844
01:37:23,960 --> 01:37:25,000
Speaker 12: Yeah, that's a great question.

1845
01:37:25,120 --> 01:37:30,160
Speaker 22: So in September of twenty twenty four, Dana Nessel dropped

1846
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:33,080
Speaker 22: eleven charges against people for their involvement in the U

1847
01:37:33,120 --> 01:37:37,680
Speaker 22: of M encampment, seven of which were felony charges, and

1848
01:37:37,720 --> 01:37:41,719
Speaker 22: all of us, including myself, had felony resisting and obstructing

1849
01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:47,519
Speaker 22: arrest in misdemeanor trespassing, and four others got various different

1850
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:51,080
Speaker 22: kinds of misdemeanors, ranging from stepping on a two dollars

1851
01:37:51,680 --> 01:37:56,280
Speaker 22: small Israel flag to other other just ridiculous ones like

1852
01:37:56,320 --> 01:38:01,599
Speaker 22: trespassing and data nestil Is also will continue to do

1853
01:38:01,680 --> 01:38:04,400
Speaker 22: charges against people for their involvement in Propolsetyne activism at

1854
01:38:04,479 --> 01:38:07,120
Speaker 22: U of m SO in January, she dropped charges against

1855
01:38:07,160 --> 01:38:11,560
Speaker 22: people who participated in a die in demonstration on the

1856
01:38:11,640 --> 01:38:14,920
Speaker 22: Yumish Diag at the at the beginning of the school year,

1857
01:38:15,840 --> 01:38:22,120
Speaker 22: and then on just on April twenty third, she requested

1858
01:38:22,160 --> 01:38:25,320
Speaker 22: a judicial warrant which authorized the FBI and a bunch

1859
01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:28,760
Speaker 22: of different police precincts from across the Strait, across the

1860
01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:33,680
Speaker 22: state to raid the homes of several prominent pro Palestine activists.

1861
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:38,240
Speaker 1: And so what are the what are the actual charges?

1862
01:38:38,280 --> 01:38:43,200
Speaker 6: Like how is she trying to take political activism on

1863
01:38:43,240 --> 01:38:46,800
Speaker 6: a college campus and transform it into felonies?

1864
01:38:46,960 --> 01:38:49,320
Speaker 1: Like what does the paperwork look like there?

1865
01:38:50,479 --> 01:38:52,240
Speaker 22: Yeah, I mean, it's a good question because it's really

1866
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:54,639
Speaker 22: quite ridiculous the way she's trying to do it is

1867
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:57,479
Speaker 22: so for these these raids that happened on April twenty third,

1868
01:38:58,360 --> 01:39:01,120
Speaker 22: it's only it's so she can actually has a bit

1869
01:39:01,160 --> 01:39:05,920
Speaker 22: of a loophole when it offers warrants to people who

1870
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:07,559
Speaker 22: are being searched, which is that they don't have to

1871
01:39:07,600 --> 01:39:11,840
Speaker 22: list the probable cause for why they obtained the search warrants,

1872
01:39:11,840 --> 01:39:14,840
Speaker 22: so it's actually extremely unclear to even the people who

1873
01:39:14,920 --> 01:39:20,280
Speaker 22: were searched what purpose or what they're even going perhaps

1874
01:39:20,439 --> 01:39:24,000
Speaker 22: going to be charged with. They in the press releases

1875
01:39:24,040 --> 01:39:28,400
Speaker 22: have mentioned multi jurisdictional vandalism, which is not an actual

1876
01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:31,400
Speaker 22: legal term, but it's clear that they're trying to quickly

1877
01:39:31,479 --> 01:39:35,559
Speaker 22: manufacture consent for the Attorney General's office handling these cases

1878
01:39:35,600 --> 01:39:39,840
Speaker 22: and to bring in the FBI, which is usually not

1879
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:43,760
Speaker 22: brought in to handle small protests related issues within the state.

1880
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:47,160
Speaker 12: So it's it's.

1881
01:39:46,920 --> 01:39:51,639
Speaker 22: So far she's mentioned this multi jurisdictional vandalism thing, which

1882
01:39:51,680 --> 01:39:53,599
Speaker 22: we know is really just a kind of a ridiculous

1883
01:39:53,640 --> 01:39:58,000
Speaker 22: way of trying to justify her presence across the state

1884
01:39:58,120 --> 01:40:00,240
Speaker 22: and her cooperation with the Trumpet.

1885
01:40:01,040 --> 01:40:03,400
Speaker 6: And to set the context right, there was some frustration

1886
01:40:03,760 --> 01:40:09,160
Speaker 6: among a lot of people that local police they were

1887
01:40:09,200 --> 01:40:13,320
Speaker 6: not sufficiently aggressive enough against protesters like they wanted. They

1888
01:40:13,360 --> 01:40:15,800
Speaker 6: wanted they wanted more protesters blood.

1889
01:40:15,800 --> 01:40:18,439
Speaker 1: The Guardian had a good piece.

1890
01:40:18,240 --> 01:40:22,040
Speaker 6: On this recently where they say are the Guardian's investigation

1891
01:40:22,120 --> 01:40:26,320
Speaker 6: revealed concrete evidence of conflicts that defense attorneys argued factored

1892
01:40:26,360 --> 01:40:29,680
Speaker 6: into the prosecutions. Among the findings, the story revealed a

1893
01:40:29,800 --> 01:40:33,080
Speaker 6: g Nessl's office charged propile stating protesters at a higher

1894
01:40:33,200 --> 01:40:37,440
Speaker 6: rate than other state prosecutors. Nessel was recruited by university

1895
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:41,519
Speaker 6: regents who were frustrated by local prosecutors unwillingness to crack

1896
01:40:41,600 --> 01:40:44,320
Speaker 6: down when most of the students arrested, to take over

1897
01:40:44,360 --> 01:40:47,000
Speaker 6: the case and file charges, three people with direct knowledge

1898
01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:49,280
Speaker 6: of the decision told The Guardian at the time. The

1899
01:40:49,320 --> 01:40:52,639
Speaker 6: investigation also found that six of eight regents contributed more

1900
01:40:52,680 --> 01:40:56,479
Speaker 6: than thirty three thousand dollars combined to Nessl's campaigns. Additionally,

1901
01:40:56,520 --> 01:40:59,960
Speaker 6: her office hired a regent's law firm to handle major

1902
01:41:00,120 --> 01:41:03,400
Speaker 6: state cases, and the same regent co chaired her twenty

1903
01:41:03,479 --> 01:41:08,360
Speaker 6: eighteen campaign. And so if people remember, there was a

1904
01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:13,080
Speaker 6: multi day controversy when Rashida Talib said that she felt

1905
01:41:13,120 --> 01:41:18,960
Speaker 6: like Dana Nessl's office was biased against Michigan protesters, and

1906
01:41:19,000 --> 01:41:22,640
Speaker 6: she said it was because, in her understanding, Nessl was

1907
01:41:22,680 --> 01:41:27,240
Speaker 6: getting pressure from the regent's office. She was then accused

1908
01:41:27,400 --> 01:41:29,760
Speaker 6: of anti semitism, saying.

1909
01:41:29,479 --> 01:41:32,320
Speaker 1: That by Dana Nessel, right, by Dana Nessel.

1910
01:41:32,040 --> 01:41:36,800
Speaker 6: And then by CNN, who repeated for many days that

1911
01:41:36,960 --> 01:41:39,720
Speaker 6: charge and then wrote stories about how she wasn't apologizing

1912
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:44,040
Speaker 6: for anti Semitism. Their argument was, well, Dana Nessel is Jewish,

1913
01:41:44,240 --> 01:41:47,160
Speaker 6: and so that so Rashida Talib is saying that Nessl

1914
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:51,280
Speaker 6: is biased because Dana Nessel is Jewish. When Talib gave

1915
01:41:51,360 --> 01:41:54,840
Speaker 6: the reason that she said why Nessl was biased, and

1916
01:41:54,880 --> 01:41:58,000
Speaker 6: that was because she was being pressured by the regents.

1917
01:41:58,360 --> 01:42:01,120
Speaker 6: So now we have this investigation the shows, in fact,

1918
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:06,160
Speaker 6: the regents of the university were indeed upset that local

1919
01:42:06,200 --> 01:42:09,439
Speaker 6: police and local prosecutors weren't, you know, bringing the hammer

1920
01:42:09,479 --> 01:42:13,360
Speaker 6: down hard enough on you and fellow protesters, and so

1921
01:42:13,439 --> 01:42:16,599
Speaker 6: they roped Dana Nessel into this. So can you you

1922
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:18,960
Speaker 6: talk about what your interactions were like, you know, with

1923
01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:24,360
Speaker 6: local police and prosecutors versus now with the state and

1924
01:42:24,400 --> 01:42:24,880
Speaker 6: the FBI.

1925
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:28,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean, it's this whole thing has been. It's

1926
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:30,439
Speaker 12: just a total, total circus.

1927
01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:34,880
Speaker 22: In fact, a huge factor of why Nessel likely dropped

1928
01:42:34,880 --> 01:42:38,720
Speaker 22: the charges is the fact that it's so unclear why

1929
01:42:38,800 --> 01:42:41,840
Speaker 22: she had why she was taking up this case to

1930
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:45,320
Speaker 22: begin with. In fact, even came out that seems like

1931
01:42:45,840 --> 01:42:49,439
Speaker 22: our local prosecutor, Elie Sabatt had never even received the

1932
01:42:49,560 --> 01:42:53,320
Speaker 22: charges from the encampment. And something that had become really

1933
01:42:53,360 --> 01:42:57,160
Speaker 22: clear to the to the Attorney General's office in this

1934
01:42:57,320 --> 01:43:02,120
Speaker 22: ongoing our lawyers had filed emotion to recuse Dana Nessel

1935
01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:05,080
Speaker 22: for you know, impropriety in taking these cases and.

1936
01:43:06,720 --> 01:43:09,920
Speaker 12: Strong both real and appearance of.

1937
01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:14,439
Speaker 22: Anti aram and anti Muslim bias is the fact that

1938
01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:17,080
Speaker 22: if she was to continue with this case, it would

1939
01:43:17,080 --> 01:43:21,160
Speaker 22: have opened up her office into evidentiary hearing and opened

1940
01:43:21,200 --> 01:43:24,519
Speaker 22: them up to discovery to figure out exactly why they

1941
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:26,759
Speaker 22: picked up these charges, because it doesn't make any sense.

1942
01:43:27,240 --> 01:43:30,240
Speaker 22: You know, this was not even remotely a multi jurisdictional case.

1943
01:43:30,240 --> 01:43:31,240
Speaker 12: It all happened within.

1944
01:43:32,640 --> 01:43:35,599
Speaker 22: The Image diag, which is about you know, like two

1945
01:43:35,720 --> 01:43:36,599
Speaker 22: hundred square feet.

1946
01:43:36,640 --> 01:43:38,400
Speaker 12: So it doesn't make any sense that.

1947
01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:41,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what I was wondering, like this multi jurisdictional vandalisman.

1948
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:43,280
Speaker 6: You guys were literally camped in one place.

1949
01:43:43,400 --> 01:43:43,679
Speaker 12: Weird.

1950
01:43:44,800 --> 01:43:48,320
Speaker 1: That's the whole thing was. It was an encampment, right.

1951
01:43:48,439 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 22: I mean, it's totally ridiculous, and you know, like you

1952
01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:55,360
Speaker 22: mentioned before, it's just clearly a result of the regents

1953
01:43:56,600 --> 01:43:59,160
Speaker 22: not getting the response that they wanted from Elie savat

1954
01:44:00,840 --> 01:44:03,479
Speaker 22: the sufficient response that they had wanted to a previous

1955
01:44:03,520 --> 01:44:08,040
Speaker 22: protest that happened in November twenty twenty three. And I mean,

1956
01:44:08,080 --> 01:44:09,600
Speaker 22: the link is just going to be clear. Even on

1957
01:44:09,640 --> 01:44:13,719
Speaker 22: the eve of Dana Nessel dropping the decision to charge

1958
01:44:13,840 --> 01:44:16,160
Speaker 22: those of us from the encampment, just the day before,

1959
01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:19,439
Speaker 22: a regent Jordan Aker had posted a selfie on Instagram

1960
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:23,360
Speaker 22: with himself, Data Nessel, and Jeremy Moss, who are like

1961
01:44:24,240 --> 01:44:27,440
Speaker 22: a kind of like zionist three stooges in Michigan politics.

1962
01:44:28,680 --> 01:44:29,719
Speaker 12: So it's just very clear.

1963
01:44:29,800 --> 01:44:33,360
Speaker 22: And Mark Bernstein, who you mentioned he's was a co

1964
01:44:33,439 --> 01:44:37,800
Speaker 22: chair of Dana Nessel's campaign, has given you tens of

1965
01:44:37,800 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 22: thousands of dollars in financial contributions to a campaign. And

1966
01:44:42,280 --> 01:44:44,799
Speaker 22: it's clear that Dana Nessil has basically just been recruited

1967
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:51,680
Speaker 22: by them due to their dissatisfaction with Ellie Sabbott's like

1968
01:44:51,760 --> 01:44:55,920
Speaker 22: insufficient zeal for prosecuting pro Palestine protesters at.

1969
01:44:55,840 --> 01:44:56,439
Speaker 7: You of them.

1970
01:44:56,760 --> 01:44:59,120
Speaker 5: Last question for me is just basically what this has

1971
01:44:59,360 --> 01:45:02,240
Speaker 5: been like for you, this crazy experience, you know, any

1972
01:45:02,320 --> 01:45:05,360
Speaker 5: any major takeaways or any reflections on it.

1973
01:45:07,080 --> 01:45:09,000
Speaker 22: I think, I mean, I think right now, those those

1974
01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:11,280
Speaker 22: of us who just had our our charges just dropped,

1975
01:45:11,320 --> 01:45:15,519
Speaker 22: or obviously very personally relieved, but I think we're also

1976
01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:17,960
Speaker 22: very like invigorated with I think what we see as

1977
01:45:18,000 --> 01:45:21,600
Speaker 22: like a massive victory for pro Palestine activism, not just

1978
01:45:21,600 --> 01:45:24,759
Speaker 22: in Michigan but nationwide, which is to show that you can't,

1979
01:45:24,960 --> 01:45:28,880
Speaker 22: you know, build up these ridiculous charges against pro Palestine

1980
01:45:28,920 --> 01:45:32,240
Speaker 22: protesters and expect to get away with it, that you know,

1981
01:45:32,400 --> 01:45:35,240
Speaker 22: unlike what might have been the case three years ago,

1982
01:45:35,400 --> 01:45:41,240
Speaker 22: that taking such a vigorous stance against anti genocide protesters

1983
01:45:41,280 --> 01:45:47,439
Speaker 22: is not acceptable, uh with with the public and showing that,

1984
01:45:47,600 --> 01:45:51,080
Speaker 22: you know, you can't get away with just you know,

1985
01:45:51,160 --> 01:45:57,360
Speaker 22: concocting some ridiculous narrative about you know, anti Semitic protesters

1986
01:45:57,439 --> 01:46:01,280
Speaker 22: is just not gonna not gonna work. So, uh, the

1987
01:46:01,320 --> 01:46:04,160
Speaker 22: fact that we were able to hold on long enough

1988
01:46:04,520 --> 01:46:09,160
Speaker 22: for her office to to drop the charges under under

1989
01:46:09,200 --> 01:46:11,840
Speaker 22: the massive amount of popular pressure, we see as a

1990
01:46:11,880 --> 01:46:12,400
Speaker 22: huge victory.

1991
01:46:12,439 --> 01:46:13,280
Speaker 1: And we're very proud of that.

1992
01:46:13,800 --> 01:46:16,360
Speaker 6: And I'm curious when you were when you were in jail,

1993
01:46:16,920 --> 01:46:19,040
Speaker 6: what did the other folks who were in there with

1994
01:46:19,120 --> 01:46:21,360
Speaker 6: you say when they're like, yo, know, what are you

1995
01:46:21,360 --> 01:46:25,200
Speaker 6: here for? And you're like protesting the war genocide.

1996
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:29,439
Speaker 12: No, I mean obviously all of them.

1997
01:46:30,040 --> 01:46:32,600
Speaker 22: I didn't meet a single person there that wasn't supportive

1998
01:46:32,680 --> 01:46:36,360
Speaker 22: of of, you know, of our cause. I mean all

1999
01:46:36,400 --> 01:46:38,800
Speaker 22: of you know, a lot of them not a not

2000
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:41,400
Speaker 22: a fan of the local prosecutors as well a lot

2001
01:46:41,400 --> 01:46:43,800
Speaker 22: of people there who had been you know, screwed over

2002
01:46:43,840 --> 01:46:46,519
Speaker 22: by them for just simple things such as you know,

2003
01:46:46,600 --> 01:46:50,759
Speaker 22: unpaid parking tickets or just being unable to meet bail.

2004
01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:53,800
Speaker 22: And in general, they were super you know, a lot

2005
01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:56,120
Speaker 22: of them even had actually been towards the encampment and

2006
01:46:56,200 --> 01:46:58,360
Speaker 22: mentioned that to me. And I also been targeted by

2007
01:46:58,320 --> 01:47:01,360
Speaker 22: the University of Michigan police before for and we're very

2008
01:47:01,400 --> 01:47:05,479
Speaker 22: sympathetic to our cause, which was very comforting for those

2009
01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:06,679
Speaker 22: four days I was there.

2010
01:47:08,200 --> 01:47:09,720
Speaker 1: All right, well glad you're out.

2011
01:47:09,760 --> 01:47:13,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, it must be a relief, you know, were you like,

2012
01:47:13,160 --> 01:47:15,560
Speaker 6: were you getting threats from the prosecutors like this is

2013
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:17,920
Speaker 6: the amount of like you're going to spend years if

2014
01:47:17,960 --> 01:47:19,759
Speaker 6: you don't know, plead down or something.

2015
01:47:20,800 --> 01:47:20,840
Speaker 12: No.

2016
01:47:21,000 --> 01:47:25,280
Speaker 22: Actually, it's interesting is that wasn't the kind of thing

2017
01:47:25,320 --> 01:47:27,680
Speaker 22: that they were even looking for. And most of all,

2018
01:47:27,720 --> 01:47:29,800
Speaker 22: they wanted us to accept a plead that would have

2019
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:32,960
Speaker 22: required giving them some kind of political victory, like saying,

2020
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:36,240
Speaker 22: we admit that we did not participate in peaceful protest,

2021
01:47:36,320 --> 01:47:38,320
Speaker 22: and we didn't want to do that because first of all,

2022
01:47:38,320 --> 01:47:41,960
Speaker 22: it could be like legally problematic for us down the line,

2023
01:47:41,960 --> 01:47:44,599
Speaker 22: but also we didn't want to. I mean, you know,

2024
01:47:44,840 --> 01:47:48,320
Speaker 22: she's clearly fishing for that for a reason, and probably

2025
01:47:48,439 --> 01:47:52,639
Speaker 22: as an excuse to continue pushing charges against people who

2026
01:47:52,720 --> 01:47:56,679
Speaker 22: have been speaking out against you of M's complicity and genocide.

2027
01:47:56,720 --> 01:47:58,800
Speaker 6: Oh so they were offering if you would admit that

2028
01:47:58,880 --> 01:48:01,160
Speaker 6: you were violent, that then they would give you no

2029
01:48:01,240 --> 01:48:03,360
Speaker 6: time basically, but you would get a charge on.

2030
01:48:03,280 --> 01:48:06,800
Speaker 22: Your record, or that it would be like the charge

2031
01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:08,800
Speaker 22: would be there would be a diversion of the charge

2032
01:48:08,880 --> 01:48:12,240
Speaker 22: with time. But like it was very clear that the

2033
01:48:13,240 --> 01:48:17,120
Speaker 22: admission of you know, her political agenda was like the

2034
01:48:17,560 --> 01:48:20,439
Speaker 22: most important demand for coming from her office.

2035
01:48:20,640 --> 01:48:20,800
Speaker 1: Right.

2036
01:48:21,680 --> 01:48:25,040
Speaker 6: Well, glad you guys you know, stood up for yourself

2037
01:48:25,080 --> 01:48:27,400
Speaker 6: and didn't didn't capitulate to that.

2038
01:48:27,880 --> 01:48:30,840
Speaker 12: Thanks Henry, Thanks for your time, Thanks for having me on.

2039
01:48:31,840 --> 01:48:34,000
Speaker 1: Take it easy. Well, Emily, I think the kids are

2040
01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:34,360
Speaker 1: all right.

2041
01:48:34,600 --> 01:48:38,240
Speaker 5: What do you think if everyone decides to include that,

2042
01:48:38,800 --> 01:48:41,120
Speaker 5: if the people who edit the show have decided to

2043
01:48:41,160 --> 01:48:44,360
Speaker 5: include us both counting in one or the other, then

2044
01:48:44,439 --> 01:48:45,320
Speaker 5: that is what happened.

2045
01:48:45,320 --> 01:48:46,719
Speaker 4: For the audience's sake.

2046
01:48:46,960 --> 01:48:49,559
Speaker 6: We can start that over all, right, do you want

2047
01:48:49,560 --> 01:48:51,760
Speaker 6: to start it two?

2048
01:48:52,520 --> 01:48:54,640
Speaker 1: Well, Emily, I think the kids are all right. What

2049
01:48:54,680 --> 01:48:55,040
Speaker 1: do you say?

2050
01:48:55,280 --> 01:48:59,439
Speaker 4: Super interesting? What a wild year he has had, I.

2051
01:48:59,400 --> 01:49:03,120
Speaker 5: Mean, truly the roller coaster of Michigan politics, throwing students

2052
01:49:03,160 --> 01:49:03,679
Speaker 5: through the ringer.

2053
01:49:03,800 --> 01:49:05,599
Speaker 1: Not fun to have felony strown at you.

2054
01:49:05,640 --> 01:49:09,320
Speaker 5: No, and then being forced to admit. I mean, their

2055
01:49:09,400 --> 01:49:13,360
Speaker 5: attorneys obviously helped them. Do you make a good decision there?

2056
01:49:13,479 --> 01:49:13,639
Speaker 12: Yeah?

2057
01:49:13,760 --> 01:49:18,040
Speaker 6: Good, Good for him for standing up, because if he

2058
01:49:18,040 --> 01:49:20,599
Speaker 6: would have admitted and he and his you know, colleagues,

2059
01:49:20,680 --> 01:49:25,040
Speaker 6: comrades would have admitted confessed to some violence that didn't happen,

2060
01:49:25,840 --> 01:49:28,080
Speaker 6: then yeah, then they would use c told you, this

2061
01:49:28,120 --> 01:49:30,320
Speaker 6: is a legitimate thing that we're doing. Now we're going

2062
01:49:30,360 --> 01:49:33,000
Speaker 6: to go round up other people. Yeah, So good for

2063
01:49:33,080 --> 01:49:36,120
Speaker 6: him for standing firm. Yeah, I'm sure that the apologies

2064
01:49:36,160 --> 01:49:37,880
Speaker 6: are coming for Rashida to leave any time now.

2065
01:49:39,439 --> 01:49:41,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm sure that'll take just another couple of days

2066
01:49:42,200 --> 01:49:45,040
Speaker 5: packed show today. Thank you everyone for tuning in, for

2067
01:49:45,080 --> 01:49:49,519
Speaker 5: sticking with us for these slightly later starts, But we've

2068
01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:51,160
Speaker 5: all got so much going on.

2069
01:49:51,240 --> 01:49:53,839
Speaker 4: Crystal will be in tomorrow, right Ryan.

2070
01:49:53,960 --> 01:49:56,880
Speaker 5: Christmas Crystals and tomorrow, and then you and Crystal are

2071
01:49:56,960 --> 01:49:57,519
Speaker 5: on Thursday.

2072
01:49:58,280 --> 01:50:00,559
Speaker 1: I think it's you and Crystal. According to this guy Joel.

2073
01:50:00,840 --> 01:50:04,439
Speaker 4: No right here, we could.

2074
01:50:04,840 --> 01:50:06,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, we should just start doing this stuff actually on

2075
01:50:06,920 --> 01:50:09,040
Speaker 5: camera though everyway it's more like reality TV.

2076
01:50:10,320 --> 01:50:12,120
Speaker 6: And then we have an A M A up next

2077
01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:15,160
Speaker 6: that's right for the premium subscribers, So breakingpoints dot com

2078
01:50:15,320 --> 01:50:18,160
Speaker 6: make sure you're throwing away your last hundred bucks on that.

2079
01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:19,559
Speaker 4: See you there,