1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:05,559 Speaker 1: Before we begin, please be aware this episode contains discussions 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 1: around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: while listening. 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 2: Let's take this very slowly. Did she have her back 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 2: towards the direction you were coming from. 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 3: No, she definitely was facing in my direction. I can't 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 3: remember whether she was directly face on or slightly angled 8 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 3: towards the incubator, but she wasn't looking at the monitor. 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 3: And as I approached, I looked up, and I can't 10 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 3: remember my exact words. I just said, what's happening? And 11 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 3: Lucy looked up and said, oh, it looks like she's desaturating. 12 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 4: What kind of a story is that you call a 13 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 4: doctor of help and the doctor walks in and she's 14 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,959 Speaker 4: monitoring the baby. You go and do your doctor thing 15 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 4: at that point, it's not a story. But somehow that 16 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 4: piece never got told in court. 17 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 5: It couldn't have happened the way he described that it 18 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 5: happened in court, which is hugely problematic for the prosecution. 19 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: It's been nearly a year since Lucy let Be was 20 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: convicted and sentenced to life in prison, but during the 21 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: first trial, the jury couldn't settle on six of the charges, 22 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: including one that led to a retrial the charge for 23 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: the attempted murder of Baby K. But this retrial is 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: about much more than what happened to Baby K. It's 25 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: about whether a story can hold up in court a 26 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: second time. And in this courtroom, the prosecution's case leans 27 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:40,639 Speaker 1: hard on a single vivid account. One you've already heard, 28 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: that of doctor Robb Jayram that moment he says he 29 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: walked into a neonatal room in the early hours and 30 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: saw Lucy let Be standing by a cot as a 31 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: baby's oxygen levels fell while she did nothing. It's the 32 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: most wrecked allegation in the entire case, one that the 33 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: first jury didn't find compelling enough to convict, but the 34 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: Crown was willing to try again. And yet as time passed, 35 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: serious questions would be asked about that testimony, questions about timing, 36 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: about memory, about what was written down at the time. Eventually, 37 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: one piece of evidence would surface, an email at odds 38 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: with the account the jury was asked to believe. I'm 39 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: Amanda Ox and from Vespucci and iHeart podcasts, this is 40 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: doubt The Case of Lucy Let be Episode seven, the retrial. 41 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 6: Breaking news in the last hour and nurse Lucy Letbie, 42 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 6: who was given a whole life sentence for the murder 43 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 6: of seven babies and the attempted murder of six others, 44 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 6: is to face a retrial on an outstanding allegation that 45 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 6: she attempted to murder a baby girl. 46 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: This time, the world around the courtroom is different. After 47 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: the first convictions, reporting restrictions tightened, But as we saw 48 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: in episode six, Rachel Aviv's article in The New Yorker 49 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: would be released the month before the retrial began. The 50 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: UK courts did their best to suppress anyone in the 51 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: UK reading the article, but in the void left by 52 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: the media restrictions, her words only rang louder. For UK 53 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: calumnist John Robbins. Her article signified that there were finally 54 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: more eyes on the case and now the retrial. 55 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 7: Perspective. There was this appetite in America to kind of 56 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 7: understand the potential for mistakes in our justice system. 57 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: But regardless of who was now watching, the retrial was 58 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: still taking place in the backdrop of those first convictions 59 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: and the dominant media story that Lucy was the angel 60 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: of death. In fact, this was the only media story 61 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: the court had allowed before the restrictions. 62 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 7: So any kind of nuance, any kind of inaccuracies are 63 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 7: sealed forever in the trial, and the prosecution story becomes 64 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 7: the story. The truth very hard to get the genie 65 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 7: back into the bottle, and there's this one story that 66 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 7: is she is a serial killer. 67 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: For the Crown, this retrial was a chance to close 68 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 1: a loose end and to reinforce the integrity of the 69 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: wider case. 70 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 8: But those stakes cut both ways with that, what's the 71 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 8: thing we all agree Lucy let Be should be free? 72 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 9: What's the thing we all agree Lucy let Be. 73 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 10: Should be free? 74 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: An emerging group of supporters believe Lucy let Be is innocent. 75 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: One even turns up outside the courthouse holding a huge 76 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: banner that reads justice for Lucy let Be. 77 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 6: In Liverpool is the proof that there are people who. 78 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 8: Support Lucy let Be. 79 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 10: We are proud of that and we are going to 80 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 10: keep it up. We are not going to give up 81 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 10: what until this conviction is overturned in every one of them. 82 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: For them, this retrial matters because a second acquittal wouldn't 83 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: undo the verdicts, but it would change the conversation, forcing 84 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: uncomfortable questions about the wider case into View journalist Clucy 85 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: de Oliveria followed the entire trial. 86 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 10: And the case of Baby K. She was born very 87 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 10: very premature. I believe that twenty five weeks in February 88 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 10: of twenty sixteen. And she was not supposed to be 89 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 10: born at the Countess. You know. The Countess wasn't really prepped. 90 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 10: The doctors didn't have the right experience that of dealing 91 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 10: with like super premature babies on a constant basis in 92 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 10: order to be able to care for the baby appropriately. 93 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 10: She wasn't supposed to be born there, but there were 94 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 10: concerns when the mother was already in labor of transferring 95 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 10: her out to another hospital, that there was a fear 96 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 10: that the baby could be born in the back of 97 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 10: an ambulance, you know. And so the baby was born 98 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 10: at this hospital, which wasn't qualified for this kind of 99 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,679 Speaker 10: birth of a very very vulnerable baby. 100 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: When Baby Ka was born, the Countess was already on edge. 101 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: By that point, three babies had died the hospital in 102 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: just one month alone, in a unit that typically saw 103 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: two or three deaths in an entire year. Concerns had 104 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: been raised internally, reviews had taken place, but crucially, no 105 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: allegation of deliberate harm had yet been made to police. 106 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: Questions were circulating among doctors, Patterns were being discussed, associations 107 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: were being noted, but there was still no crime scene, 108 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: no suspect, no police investigation. That all changed when doctor 109 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: Jayram came forward with his shocking account. What follows is 110 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: what was presented to the court, read by actors. 111 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 3: Lucy let Be was we use the term babysitting, so 112 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 3: it's when the name nurses called away, another nurse goes 113 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 3: to supervise. At this time, February twenty sixteen, had a 114 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: number of unusual instants with babies and a number of 115 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 3: colleagues and myself had noted the association with Lucy let 116 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 3: Be being present at these things. At this stage we'd 117 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 3: had a thematic review, an external review, which hadn't found 118 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 3: any other obvious factors. I was sitting and I'll be 119 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 3: very honest, I felt very uncomfortable. Objectively, you could say 120 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 3: that was completely irrational, but I just had a feeling 121 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 3: because of knowing what had happened before, and my internal 122 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 3: dialogue was very much stop being stupid, get on with 123 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 3: your work. 124 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: Nick Johnson, the prosecuting lawyer, asks doctor j Ram to 125 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: describe what he saw on Baby Kay's monitor. 126 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 3: What I saw on the screens was that Baby Kay's 127 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: oxygen saturations were dropping. They're in the low eighties and 128 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 3: going downwards next to the incubator, so sort of around 129 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 3: where just at the top of the A is where 130 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 3: the ventilator sits and the pumps to give intravenous fluids. 131 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 3: And Lucy let Bee was standing at point B next 132 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 3: to the incubator. She wasn't looking at me. She didn't 133 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 3: have hands in the incubator. 134 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: Let's take this very slowly. Did she have her back 135 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 2: towards a direction you were coming from. 136 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 3: No, she definitely was facing in my direction. I can't 137 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 3: remember whether she was directly face on or slightly angled 138 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: towards the incubator, but she wasn't looking at the monitor. 139 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 3: And as I approached, I looked up, and I can't 140 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 3: remember my exact words. I just said, what's happening? And 141 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 3: Lucy looked up and said, oh, it looks like she's desaturating. 142 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 3: What was of note is usually the monitors are set 143 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 3: to alarm if the saturations drop, usually below a level 144 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 3: of ninety percent, and the alarm immediately I didn't look 145 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 3: to see whether the button that caused the alarms to 146 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 3: be suspended was pressed. But these saturations were going down 147 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 3: and continued to go down. 148 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 2: Was there the sound of the alarm? 149 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 3: No, there was no alarm. Had an alarm gone off, 150 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 3: that would have been my prompt to walk in. And 151 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: although if you look at the layout of the unit, 152 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 3: the alarms allowed and where I was sitting, had an 153 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 3: alarm gone off, I would have heard it. 154 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: The picture that the prosecution is trying to paint, he 155 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: is very deliberate. A room full of machines designed to 156 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: scream when something is wrong, a baby's oxygen levels falling, 157 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: and yet no alarm, no call for help. 158 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: Did you hear while you were either sitting at the 159 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: nursing station or your progress into nursery one any call 160 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: for help from Lucy Leppie? 161 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 3: No, not all. I was surprised that the alarm wasn't 162 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 3: going off, although my priority was baby k and I 163 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 3: didn't question it at the time, and in retrospect I was. 164 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 3: I'm surprised that help hadn't been called, given that baby 165 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 3: Kay was a twenty five week gestation baby and her 166 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 3: saturations were dropping. 167 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: Doctor jerm suspected something was wrong with Baby Kay's breathing tube. 168 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 3: So having established that there was an issue with the tube, 169 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 3: I removed the tube. So basically took the tube out 170 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 3: of Baby Kay's mouth, connected the tea piece to a 171 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 3: small mask which I then put over Baby Kay's nose 172 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 3: and mouth, and ventilated through the mask. Picked up extremely quickly. 173 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 3: Within a few breaths, her color improved, her saturations improved, 174 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 3: and I could see that her chest was moving normally. 175 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: Baby Ka stabilizes, but she is still critically premature. Baby 176 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: k would spend the next six hours at Countess Hospital 177 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: waiting to be transferred to another hospital better equipped to. 178 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 8: Care for her. 179 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: And here is where the stories become important in terms 180 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: of what actually happened and what the jury was asked 181 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: to consider. A transfer note written at five fifty five 182 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: am reads call received from doctor Jayram baby dislodged the 183 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: tube and had to be reintubated. When asked about that 184 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: wording in court, doctor Jayram was careful. 185 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 3: I probably framed it as the tube was dislodged. 186 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 8: So what was it? 187 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: Did the baby dislodge her own tube or did someone else? 188 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 11: We know that Ravi's saying Lucy excubated the baby dislodged 189 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 11: the tube, but we know that also that baby self 190 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 11: dislodged the tube on two more occasions during that same 191 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 11: six hour period. 192 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: This is former New Liddle nurse Michelle Warden. 193 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 11: Babies wriggle, they move. If you think these tubes they're 194 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 11: tied in, they're not what's called cuffed, which is what 195 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 11: happens in an adult or a child where it's fixed. 196 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 11: So they can very easily slip, and you only need 197 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 11: that baby to slightly move their head and move half 198 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 11: a centimeter. 199 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: Although doctor Jerum makes an excuse for the difference between 200 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: what the hospital note said and what he meant, other 201 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: times he was much more certain that the tube had 202 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: been dislodged deliberately. 203 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 12: The nurse would have called for help. And Lucy Letby 204 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 12: was standing by the top of the incubator. She didn't 205 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:04,239 Speaker 12: have her hands in the incubator. 206 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: This is from an interview doctor Jayram did with ITV 207 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: between Lucy's first trial and her retrial. 208 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 10: What was she doing? 209 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 12: What she was just standing there? Now? Tubes become dislodged, 210 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 12: but this was a twenty five week gestation baby who 211 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 12: wasn't kicking around, who wasn't vigorous. The only possibility was 212 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 12: that that tube had to have been dislodged deliberately. 213 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: This has never sat well with Michelle. 214 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 11: He very clearly said, the only explanation for a twenty 215 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 11: five week gestation baby is that somebody deliberately dislodged it. Well, 216 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 11: that's just rubbish. 217 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: It also didn't sit well with Lucy's defense lawyer. In fact, 218 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: Ben Myers would play the interview that doctor Jayram gave 219 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: in court. Here's court transcripts of that cross examination read 220 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: by actors Dr Jerren. 221 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 9: The only possibility is of the tube being dislodged deliberately. 222 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 6: Yes, Bear in. 223 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 3: Mind this interview was a long way after the events. 224 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 3: You're telling the truth, and at that time we also 225 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 3: knew Lucy Letby had been convicted of several charges of 226 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 3: murder and attempted murder. 227 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,479 Speaker 9: We all know that. But you said, the only possibility 228 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 9: you're talking about that night. Yes, the only possibility is 229 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 9: the tube must have been dislodged deliberately. 230 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 4: So you'd got her. 231 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 9: Yes, hadn't you? Hadn't you You'd walked in on her, 232 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 9: hadn't you? 233 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 10: Well? 234 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 3: I walked in and there are a number of things 235 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 3: that should have been happening that didn't happen, that weren't happening. 236 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: Yes, except after all this certainty that the tube had 237 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: been deliberately dislodged. Doctor Jerrem would later go on to 238 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: tell the court that, in actual fact, he didn't witness 239 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: the tube being dislodged. 240 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 11: He's also on record of saying he walked in and 241 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 11: she didn't have hands in the incubator, So she didn't 242 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 11: have hands in the incubator. How did she actually dislodge 243 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 11: the tube? 244 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: Now, some have argued that Lucy let Be may have 245 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,119 Speaker 1: deliberately avoided being seen with her hands inside the incubator, 246 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: that she was careful to cover her tracks, but the 247 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: central fact remains. No one ever testified to actually seeing 248 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: her harm a baby, and yet doctor Jayram's account came 249 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: to be treated as if it were eye witness evidence. 250 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: A doctor from that unit later told the court at 251 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: retrial that if she had been born there, she would 252 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: have had access to the specialists she needed and might 253 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: have survived, but by the time she reached them, she 254 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: was already too fragile and there was no chance of 255 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: saving her. But for doctor Jayram, there was one clear 256 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: answer as to what happened to baby Kay, and he 257 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: would distill his account against Lucy let Be to three 258 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: points of suspicion. One, up until the point he saw 259 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: Lucy at the incubator, baby k had been stable. 260 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 8: Two the alarms didn't sound. 261 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 3: And three I hadn't actually been called or nobody had 262 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 3: actually been called to come and look at the. 263 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: Baby except an actual fact he had. 264 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 10: Ravi Jydham had sent an email to his colleagues. 265 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: This is reporter Clucy to Oliveira again and. 266 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 10: There's just one line in it where he says where 267 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 10: is He's describing the incident, and he says Lucy let 268 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 10: be at court and called doctor Jayuram for help when 269 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 10: the baby started deteriorating. So this is the earliest recorded 270 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 10: piece of evidence of Bravi Jayram describing the events of 271 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 10: that night, and it is completely completely different, black and white, 272 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 10: different from what he came to testify about at trial. 273 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: Unbeknownst to the defense and prosecution at the time, there 274 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: was one piece of evidence that complicated the picture. Doctor 275 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: Jayram had painted, an internal email that would surface in 276 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: September twenty twenty four. It had been written before the 277 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:27,239 Speaker 1: trials even before the police investigation had started, and it 278 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: directly went against doctor Jayram's claim that Lucy had never 279 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: called for help. The email was written when the doctors 280 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: were putting together their case in a document for the police. 281 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: In this email, doctor Jayram was clear about the goal 282 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: the document, he said, was meant for the police to 283 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: have their interest piqued, and he suggested the cases should 284 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: quote highlight explicitly for these cases that LLL was in 285 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: attendance and in close proximy to the incubators end. He 286 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: stressed that this should be done hopefully more in a 287 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: stating the facts way than a subjective finger pointing way. 288 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: Jayram wrote Staffner's let Be was at incubator and called 289 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: doctor Jayram to inform of low saturations. 290 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 8: In this telling, it. 291 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 1: Was let Be who called him, not a doctor acting 292 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: on instinct or suspicion, as he testified in court. He 293 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: also recorded that baby Kay's collapse and eventual death was 294 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: consistent with complications from extreme prematurity, not from a dislodged 295 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: breathing tube. More striking still, in a final report that 296 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: the doctors at the Countess sent to the police, the 297 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: report that started the whole police investigation. 298 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 8: This information was absent. 299 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: For Sarah Napton, signed editor at the Telegraph, it was clear. 300 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 5: It couldn't have happened the way he described that it 301 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 5: happened in court, which is hugely problemastic for the prosecution. 302 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: The problem is this email would emerge one month after 303 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: the retrial was over, a retrial that Lucy would lose. 304 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: Although Lucy's defense was never able to bring up doctor 305 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: Jayram's email in court, it raised a very important question 306 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: whether doctor Jayram's account, so central to the investigation and 307 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: to both trials, had been fully and consistently told. There 308 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: was another detail about doctor Jayrem that was brought up 309 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: during the retrial and which made those following the case 310 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: even more concerned about the validity of his testimony, because 311 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: on the eve of the second trial, the Guardian newspaper 312 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: reported something that took doctor Jayram's interest in this case 313 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: to a whole other level. They reported that the man 314 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: who was already well known to the UK public from 315 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: his reality TV stint, had become involved in what many 316 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: could imagine to be a very lucrative project. Producers were 317 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: interested in making a TV drama about the Lucy let 318 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: Be case. And doctor Jayram was involved. This latest discovery 319 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: only added fuel to a fire that started way back 320 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 1: when Rachel Leviv's article was published. A public that had 321 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: started to question the legitimacy of her conviction had only 322 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: more questions. On the first day of the retrial, Lucy's 323 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: lawyer requested that the judge get a statement from doctor 324 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: Jayram to ask whether he had commercial involvement with the 325 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: TV production, because, to Ben Myers, this would cause a 326 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: significant issue that the doctor would quote portray himself in 327 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: a particular way in a story that is being developed. 328 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: The judge declined, it's hard to understand why this was 329 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 1: a story so compelling that it was already being shaped 330 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: for the screen. But it was an ongoing story, and 331 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,479 Speaker 1: new questions were emerging about one of the prosecution's most 332 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: pivotal witnesses, and it was that exact witness who would 333 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: be shaping the way the story would be told. As 334 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: scrutiny rose, production on the TV drama would eventually be halted, 335 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: with creators saying that the case was more complicated than 336 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: first thought. 337 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 13: I'd be amazed if that didn't form a significant part 338 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 13: on the criminal cases. Rube's commission to the buck at 339 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 13: the trial and it back to the Court of Appeal, 340 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 13: which is there isn't any evidence apart from what he says, 341 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 13: and now what he says has been called in question. 342 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: Sarah Naptin was wrong, the court would deny her appeal. 343 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 14: Thank you, Madam Dipty Speaker. I am not in the 344 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 14: habit of issuing trigger warnings, but I must warn the 345 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 14: House in this case that this speech covers deeply distressing events. 346 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: But just because the court had decided they were done 347 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: deliberating the case, others were not. Conservative Member of Parliament 348 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: David Davis stood up in the House of Commons and 349 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: publicly demanded answers. 350 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 14: But my central argument today, which comes back to what 351 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 14: they right on one gentleman ask me, is what to 352 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 14: do about a trial which, in my view is a 353 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 14: clear miscarriacter justice by. 354 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: Judicial since in May twenty five, Davis wrote to Mark Roberts, 355 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: Chief Constable of the Cheshire Police, to make a formal 356 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: complaint calling for doctor Jayram to be investigated for perjury. 357 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: He argued that the jury in the retrial reached their 358 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: verdict on the basis of misleading testimony and that quote 359 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,959 Speaker 1: this matter goes beyond the outcome of a single trial. 360 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: It touches on public confidence in the integrity of our 361 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: criminal justice system. 362 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 4: I think I've lost a lot of faith in the 363 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 4: criminal justice systems. I've looked into this. 364 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: For journalist Guy Roland, the issue of doctor Jayram's testimony 365 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: was just one aspect of a case riddled with questions, 366 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: questions surrounding stories that began with the doctors. 367 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 4: The moment those doctors walked through the door to that 368 00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 4: police station, they're the doctors. They felt like, right, okay, 369 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 4: we believe these doctors, and let's give them the benefit 370 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 4: of doubt. They did believe those doctors. They just believe 371 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 4: what they were told. They didn't look at the history 372 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 4: of the fact that they'd lost a grievance against this 373 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 4: slowly nurse that they'd accused of the most terrible things. 374 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 4: And then Dowi Evans walks in and his amazing gift 375 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 4: at being able to spot what no one else's spot 376 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 4: in ten minutes over a cup of coffee, and then 377 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 4: that seals that the system itself seems to work in 378 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 4: a certain way that once you're on a track saying right, 379 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 4: we think this is a winnable case. Now It's just 380 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 4: extraordinary how fast it went from there's no evidence here 381 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 4: to doctors tell a story. Another doctor comes in a 382 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 4: spot's murder in ten minutes over a cup of coffee, 383 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 4: and right we're after the races. And I will stand 384 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 4: by this. I think that the vast majority of those 385 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 4: people really believes they're doing the right thing. 386 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: That belief in the doctors it mattered because once it 387 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: took hold, it narrowed the frame shaping what was questioned, 388 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: what was pursued, and what was quietly set aside. What 389 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: Guy Roland is pointing to isn't a single missing detail. 390 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 1: It's a pattern, a series of facts, reports, and expert 391 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: opinions that never made it into the courtroom at all. 392 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: And once you begin to lay them out, a different 393 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: picture starts to emerge, not of what the jury decided, 394 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: but of what the jury was never asked to consider. 395 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 14: There is a great deal of evidence demonstration there are 396 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 14: much more likely alternative causes of these tragic deaths than 397 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 14: those put up by the prosecuting team. 398 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: This is David Davis again speaking in the House of Commons. 399 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 14: One of the problems we face is that much of 400 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 14: the evidence was available at the time expert analysis of 401 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 14: the case note which were there at the time, but 402 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 14: it was simply not presented to the jury. This means 403 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 14: the Court of Appeal CODs. 404 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: Once you start asking what the jury didn't hear, the 405 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: focus inevitably shifts from who was present to what actually 406 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: happened to the babies themselves, Because beyond patterns, beyond charts, 407 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: beyond suspicions, there were detailed medical records, there were post mortems, 408 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: there were alternative explanations. 409 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 14: The consultant in charge took a decision to insert a 410 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 14: needle into the abdomen to release what they thought was 411 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 14: pressure in the abdomen gas pressure in the abdomen. However, 412 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 14: this was wrongly inserted into the right side of the 413 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 14: baby's abdomen. As a result of this error, the needle 414 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 14: penetrated the liver, causing serious internal. 415 00:26:55,040 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: Bleeding that's later on Doubt the Case of the Lue 416 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: Lucy let Be. Doubt the Case of Lucy let Be 417 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,479 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Vespucci, iHeart Podcasts and Knox 418 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: Robinson Productions. I've been your host Amanda Knox. This episode 419 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: was written by Natalia Rodriguez. The co producer was Lucy Ditchmont. 420 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: The assistant producer was Amy Gill. Senior producer is Natalia Rodriguez. 421 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: Story editing by Kathleen Goldhard. The sound designer is Tom Biddle. 422 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: The theme was also written by Tom Biddle. Voice acting 423 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: by Tobias Davies, Paul Leeming and Kenny Blythe legal advice 424 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: was provided by Jack Browning. The producers at iHeart Podcasts 425 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: are Chandler Mays and Katrina Norville. The executive producers for 426 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Turkin, and Johnny Galvin. 427 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening.