1 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: So I've just been hearing the rumblings about the sixteen 2 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: nineteen project in the New York Times series of articles 3 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. It's just kind of I just thought, 4 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: I can I can feel the heat sometimes from a story, 5 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: and I decide, you know what, I'm not ready to 6 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: wait into that yet. I feel like I'm gonna have to, 7 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: but I'm just not ready for you. I've read some 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: of it, but it's it's come down upon me now. 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: And according to the the editor of The New York Times, 10 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: the executive editor, he signaled that the New York Times 11 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: is gonna pivot from Russia coverage. You know why I'm 12 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: gonna pivot from Russia coverage to focusing on race in 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: the run up to the election because the Russia coverage 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: wasn't working for boot and Trump out so they thought 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,319 Speaker 1: maybe race and paint him as a racist would right. 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: But the Times also declared it quote aims to reframe 17 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: the country's history, understanding sixteen nineteen as our true founding 18 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: and placing the consequences of slavery and the contributions of 19 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: black Americans at the very center of the story we 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: tell ourselves about who we are unquote sixteen nineteen being 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: the date of when first started slipping ship slaves to 22 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: North America. That's our true founding. And some of the 23 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: things that have been said during the the the um 24 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: conversation about this in the sixteen nineteen project have been 25 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: quite controversial, I would say, And they are not restricted 26 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: to that journalism project either. You hear it all the time. 27 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: It's taught in all the colleges and high schools of America. Uh. 28 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: Tim Sander for Vice President for Litigation of the Goldwater Institute. 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: Tim the lawyer, author of a number of tombs, including 30 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: Frederick Douglass Self Made Man, and a brand new book 31 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: that I'm sure he'll tell us about, joins us. Now, Hey, Tim, 32 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: how are you? It's great? Thanks for having me back. Oh, 33 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: it's it's our play. Sure. Absolutely love the piece you 34 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: wrote for Reason dot Com, which we will have linked 35 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: so people can find it easily. Will get on that. 36 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: But Um, first of all, what does this sixteen nineteen 37 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: project get right? Do you think? Or? Go ahead? You know, 38 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: I'm glad you started with that because because I think 39 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: it's important to say that a lot of this stuff 40 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: is very good. A lot of these articles UM really 41 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: really cover an area of history that, to be frank, 42 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,839 Speaker 1: I think many white Americans are completely ignorant of I think, 43 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: in my anecdotal experience, white Americans are largely not very 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: aware of the history of slavery and are almost totally 45 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: ignorant of what came after that, which was the virtual 46 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: re enslavement of the South in the years that followed 47 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: um about eighteen seventy six to nine. D r and 48 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: I would argue that the people are also wolfully ignorant 49 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: of the fight to end slavery and how that worked. 50 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: But anyway, that's exactly right, and that's the real shortcoming 51 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: of the sixteen nineteen articles, is that yet fay to 52 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: address that, and it takes for granted this narrative that 53 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: America was founded as a white supremacist nation, that slavery 54 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: was protected in the constitution, that this was the plan 55 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: all along, that when the founding fathers wrote the Declaration 56 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: of Independence, they did not mean all men are created 57 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: equal when they wrote all men are created equal, That 58 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: what they really meant was all white men are created equal. 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: And that myth is taken as a as a given 60 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: assumption by these the articles in this series, and that's 61 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: that's really objectionable. It's it's not true as a factual matter, 62 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: and it has a really deleterious effect on how people 63 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: think about the United States. It would be far more 64 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: accurate to say that America's real founding isn't slavery, but 65 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: the abolition of slavery, that the Constitution of the United 66 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: States as we know it today has a lot more 67 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: in common with what happened in eighteen sixty five than 68 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: with what happened in seventeen seventy six. And the the 69 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: articles total we ignore that, and they totally ignore the 70 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: efforts of political leaders in the eighteen thirties to to 71 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: the beginning of the Civil War to fight back against 72 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: the rise of white supremacist thinking, which did not happen 73 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: at the founding, but happened with the generation that came 74 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: after the founding. They were the ones who created this 75 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: myth that the Constitution is only for white people, right. 76 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: That was a white supremacist notion that a lot of 77 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: people fought against. I love the point you make about 78 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: the white men who wrote the Declaration of Independence. Adam's 79 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: Madison Washington and Jefferson slaveholders both um that when they 80 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: wrote that document and the Constitution. What did they think 81 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: that meant for slavery. Yeah, well they meant they knew 82 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: that it meant that slavery was inconsistent with their principles 83 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 1: and could not be justified. And they said, so, you know, 84 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: to be frank, it's it's always mystified me that Jefferson 85 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: takes so much flak on the issue of slavery, when 86 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: Jefferson at least risked his political career on several occasions 87 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: because he spoke out against slavery. Now did he do enough, 88 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: of course not. But in his own day, he was 89 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: radical enough on the issue of slavery that he got 90 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: beat down for it on multiple occasions and eventually gave 91 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: it up because he knew that it was accomplishing nothing 92 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: in his in the direction of eliminating slavery. Now, maybe 93 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: that was the wrong choice, but I think it's only 94 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: fair to give Jefferson credit for having spoken out and 95 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: said slavery was evil and could not be reconciled with 96 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: the with the declaration of Independence, and so did the others. 97 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: And you know that. To me, the really pivotal figure here, 98 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: who again goes completely unmentioned in the Times article, is 99 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: a series of articles is John Quincy Adams, John adams Son, 100 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: John Quincy Adams was one of the greatest men in 101 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: American history. He knew all of the founding fathers personally, 102 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: and he was more or less the godfather of the 103 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: anti slavery movement in this country. He was his proteges. 104 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: Where the where the guys who grew up to lead 105 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: the anti slavery movement. And John Quincy Adams was was 106 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: under no illusions about the founding He said, the founding 107 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: fathers RANTI slavery. They said so, they said slavery was inconsistent. 108 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: Now they didn't do enough about it. They didn't understand, 109 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: they didn't figure out a plan of how to eliminate slavery. 110 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: But the idea that they thought that they thought slavery 111 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: was a good thing is just a lie. And unfortunately 112 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,119 Speaker 1: it's taken as as a granted assumption by many people 113 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: on the left, and it appears by the New York Times. 114 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: What do you think the danger is of either understudying 115 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: the role of slavery in our history or or taking 116 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: it on the way the New York Times is? What 117 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: are the two um danger zones on either side? Knowing 118 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: too little about slavery, I think leads to this mythology 119 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: um in two ways. One of the there's this romanticist 120 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: idea that slavery wasn't so bad, which is revolting. But 121 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 1: I think that there are still quite a lot of 122 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 1: people who buy into this sort of gone with the 123 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: wind picture that that really needs to be abolished. And 124 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: the second thing is that it then you don't understand 125 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: what came afterwards, which was that in eighteen seventy six, 126 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: a decade after the Civil War, the northern political leaders 127 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: decided to stop protecting civil rights in the South and 128 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: they withdrew American Um, the American army that had been 129 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: stationed in the Southern States to protect the freedmen against 130 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: terrorist groups, and as a result, the South was condemned 131 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: to another century of slavery. Incidentally, this is precisely the 132 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: same argument that's going on right now with regard to Afghanistan, 133 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: is that voters are tired of the effort of protecting 134 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: a vulnerable class against terrorist groups. In their attitude as well, 135 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: let's just take our guns and go home. And you know, 136 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: whether that's right or wrong, we have to be be 137 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: clear eyed about the fact that that's going to condemn 138 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: those people to at least another century of terrorist enslavement. Now, 139 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: to me, the another really objectional part is to look 140 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: at the history of the nation as a whole rather 141 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: than going state by state. And this is important for 142 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: California because you know California that the arguments of the 143 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: sixteen nineteen project is basically it's trying to say that 144 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: great American industries today are rooted in slavery, and therefore 145 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: that that America's industrial and technological progress is at bottom 146 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: root based on slavery. Now, whatever you think about that, 147 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: it's not true of California. California didn't have massive black, manned, 148 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: enslaved plantations like the Old South did. If anything, California's 149 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: industry is rooted on the exploitation of Chinese labor, the 150 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: Chinese coolie system that built the railroads and manned the 151 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: farms in the nineteenth century. None of that goes mentioned 152 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: in the Times article. And although Chinese coolie labor wasn't 153 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: as bad as slavery, nothing was as bad as slavery. 154 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: It's the closest in California ever had to slavery, and 155 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: California is the most agriculturally productive state in the Union. 156 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: So if you're going to talk about this argument that 157 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: somehow today's industry is rooted on slavery, you can't ignore 158 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: the abuses that the and He suffered in California history. 159 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: And yet the articles are completely silent about that and 160 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: and ignore other ethnic groups also, as if it's all 161 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: just black versus white throughout American history. Tim Lawyer sander 162 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: for Tim Sanderford from the gold Water Institute has written 163 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: a terrific piece refuting the premise that this country is 164 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: based on slavery um And we're discussing that and allied questions. 165 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break, Tim, with your permission, 166 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: and come back and be prepared. I want to ask 167 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: you about what you think about reparations, because I think 168 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: the whole New Yorker, the New York Times is trying 169 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: to set up the presidential election a lot about race, 170 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: and a lot of the candidates are for reparations, and 171 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: I just think that that division conversation. They are all 172 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: on the way on the Armstrong and Getty shows, the 173 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: Armstrong and Getty Show. So we're talking about the sixteen 174 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: nineteen project in the New York Times, which is all 175 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 1: about discus using the role of slavery in the United States, 176 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: and uh, too many people's minds really really overstating it. 177 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: And what they're really up to is they're trying to 178 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: set up the election as being all about the racist 179 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: Trump and his racist followers right against everybody else that 180 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: is standing up what for what is good and beautiful 181 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: in the world, right, and that there ends any discussion 182 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: of Trump in this topic. I mean, because this is 183 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: not about Trump. We're talking with Tim Sander for Tim 184 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: and the lawyers we've called him for years as he 185 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: started as a caller on this show. But quoting from 186 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: his own article today in a Reason at reason dot com, 187 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: where the six nineteen articles go wrong is in a 188 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: persistent and off key theme, an effort to prove that 189 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: slavery is quote, the country's very origin and the source 190 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: of quote, nearly everything that has truly made America exceptional. 191 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: Slavery is the source of nearly everything that has truly 192 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: made America exceptional. That's a hell of a statement, Great Scott, 193 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: your reactor, your reaction, Tim Well. I think it. For 194 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: one thing, it's incredibly voter and materialistic to say that 195 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: what makes America great is its wealth. What makes great 196 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: America great is the principle that all men are created 197 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: equal in the Declaration of Independence, and the authors of 198 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: that document understood at the time that it was incompatible 199 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: with slavery. And it's been the efforts of Americans ever 200 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: since to make that truth more real in the lives 201 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: of America, first by abolishing slavery and then through the 202 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: civil rights movements and so forth. That's the true source 203 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: of American greatness. And if it had not accomplished a 204 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: dime for America, it would still make it the greatest 205 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: country to have been created, precisely because it's a matter 206 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: of principle. And the people who understood that were people 207 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: like Abraham Lincoln or John Quincy Adams, or Frederick Douglas 208 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: or Charles Sumner who was nearly assassinated in the U. S. 209 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: Senate for denouncing white supremacy. I mean these people. Their 210 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: efforts go almost completely unmentioned in the Times articles, as 211 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: if it was just a matter of course that America 212 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: is rooted in slavery, was premised on slavery, that the 213 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: color line was written into the Constitution, when in fact, 214 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: the Constitution doesn't even use the word slavery and provided 215 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: no legal protections for slavery whatsoever. Right, there's so many 216 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: aspects of this. I'm trying to decide which to go 217 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: off on. One thing that's always bothered me about the 218 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: self flagellation over slavery, which is of course just anathema. 219 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: It's it's horrific, it's indefensible and unforgivable, But the idea 220 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: that it's a uniquely American problem. Slavery is universal, has 221 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: been universal every continent on earth, practically every country, um 222 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: and and continues today yeah and persist today. Yeah yeah. 223 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: So I just and those things go unmentioned by in 224 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: all of these debates. And the reason why is because, 225 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: as as Jack mentioned, the sixteen nineteen project is only 226 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: partly about history, it's also really being used for political purposes, 227 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: and that slavery discussions in the United States are so 228 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: frequently used instrumentally not to actually talk about slavery, but 229 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: in order to advocate some contemporary project to redistribute wealth, 230 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: and in the sixteen nineteen projects case, to attack capitalism itself, 231 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: when in fact, it was capitalism that destroyed slavery, and 232 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 1: it was and it was slavery's defenders who fashioned the 233 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: arguments against capitalism that are still being used today, the 234 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: idea that it's too individualistic, that it's based on greed, etcetera, etcetera. 235 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: All those arguments were created by slavery's defenders, and they're 236 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: trotted out today as if by by historians or pseudo 237 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: historians who try to argue that slavery is somehow a 238 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: form of capitalism that's fascinating. Not only not only insane, 239 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: but even Karl Marx didn't think that slavery was a 240 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: form of capitalism. That is fascinating. Yeah, it really is. So, 241 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: speaking of redistributional wealth, it's my personal belief that there 242 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: are almost no politicians with two brain cells to rub 243 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: together that actually think reparations ought to happen. But what's 244 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: your answer to the idea of refer rations? I'm in. 245 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: I favor reparations to any person who is actually a slave. 246 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: Um with regard to those who are descendants of slaves, Uh, No, 247 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: of course not. I the idea that, for one thing, 248 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: not only does that inflict injuries and injustices on people 249 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: who are not responsible for those crimes, but it fosters 250 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: this bizarre idea that slavery could be wiped out by 251 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: a single act. Of the legacy of slavery could be 252 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: wiped out by a single act, and and history is 253 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: way too messy for that. The idea that slavery could 254 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: be somehow resolved the reparations leads to the idea that 255 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: you could pass a law through Congress today to redistribute wealth, 256 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: and then there you go, slaveries over. We never have 257 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: to hear about it again. Well, that's crazy. Slave. If 258 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: the legacy of slavery has inflicted so many harms on 259 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: so many people, then the only way to resolve it 260 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: is on an individual, case by case basis over the 261 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: long haul, by treating people justly today, not by ta 262 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: king will from the descendants of people whose ancestors came 263 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: to this in this country after the Civil War and 264 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: and giving and and who themselves suffered discrimination and and violence, 265 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: and giving it to other descendants of people whose ancestors 266 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: were brought here against their will and force into slavery. 267 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: That that's sort of of intergenerational redistribution or intergenerational resentment 268 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: is a recipe for political disaster in the long run. 269 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: We know that because we've seen it happen time and 270 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: time again in countries around the world. Tim, You've been 271 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: incredibly fair on this topic. I think anybody who reads 272 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: your article at Reason dot com, which will link at 273 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: Armstrong and Getty dot com as soon as it comes out, um, uh, 274 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: you've been fair and you point out you know, the 275 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: flaws in in in our in our past. But for 276 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: a black child born today, how much are they facing um, 277 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: you know, leftover bad stuff from slavery, that that is 278 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: in their faces as an oppositional force to being success. Well, 279 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: there's I would say there's two answers that I think 280 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: the I think for us in some ways, the answer 281 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: is it's pervasive, and it's pervasive largely through white ignorance 282 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: of slavery's legacy and the reality of slavery. The fact 283 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: that for a lot of white Americans, their knowledge of 284 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: slavery comes from watching Gone with the Wind and Roots um, 285 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: and so as a result, they don't really understand the 286 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: the effects it had, and so that is going to 287 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: haunt the life of any black child in the country. 288 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: The second answer is that it's it depends on the 289 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: on the child, That depends on its family circumstances, where 290 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: he's born, What the socioeconomic status of that child is 291 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: because it's an it has to be looked at it 292 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: as an individual, case by case basis. And obviously I 293 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: could not presume to say what any individual Black Americans 294 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: life is like. Nobody could. And it's It's one of 295 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: the problems with approaching the issue of slavery and the 296 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: way The Times does is that it takes that attitude 297 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: that you can look at it in broad terms like that. 298 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: Tim Sander, for as the vice president for litigation Goldwater Institute, UH, 299 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: the author of the absolutely fantastic Frederick Douglass Self Made 300 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: Man and a brand New Tone, that will be talking 301 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: to Tim about in a few days. Tim, we sure 302 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: appreciate the time. Will make sure everybody reads the great 303 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: piece you wrote for a reason. Thanks. Oh it's our pleasure. 304 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: Thank you. Tell me you'll hear a better fair and 305 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: balance to borrow a term conversation about that topic the 306 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: mat anywhere you will not will not, you will not. 307 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 1: Marshall's News is next on The Armstrong and Getty Show.