1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, you're welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Seger. 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 1: And this is the second part of our episodes on 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: alien abduction. Now, if you haven't listened to the first part, 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: I highly recommend you go back and listen to that. 7 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: That's where we really established the grounding for what we're 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: talking about here. What is the common narrative surrounding alien 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: abductions and then what is the more common sort of 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: scientific explanation for what's going on. We looked at false 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: memory and plantation. We talked about ideas surrounding sleep paralysis, 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: things like that. This episode is going to be more 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: focused on the cultural fabric surrounding the twentie century and 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: how it kind of led us to this experience really 15 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: being popular between the sixties leading up to the nineties 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: and then kind of fading out after that. Yeah, and 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: this is a yeah, this this is a really chewy 18 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: part of this, uh, this exploration of of alien abduction, 19 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: Because on one hand, if you're looking at it from 20 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 1: a purely skeptical point of view and saying, yes, this 21 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: is just uh, you know phenomena occurring within the brain. 22 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: This is the memory, false memories and memory distortions. Then 23 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: you still have to say, well, how does this narrative 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: get stitched together? Where does this ultimately absurd narrative come 25 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: together of these sort of embryonic creatures arriving and flying 26 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: ships and uh in sticking probes into our bodies? Like 27 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: where does this come from? And what does it say 28 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: about the culture from which it emerges? And even if 29 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: you're not skeptical on all of this, if you're more 30 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: of a believer, like even some of the believers, uh, 31 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, voice their concerns about about the various cultural 32 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: and media elements that could be coloring alleged actual abduction experiences. 33 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: There's like a weird feedback loop going on, which came 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: first the alien abduction or the science fiction after it? 35 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: And then you know what I kept thinking of was 36 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: that they they talk about how this really started in 37 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: the forties, right, And then I was thinking about the 38 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties was really that big boom in comic books 39 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: for like science fiction e horror kind of comics where 40 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: like Mars attacks style aliens would come there earth, right, 41 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: and like have like, uh, what those like weird ray guns, 42 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that. Science fiction was exploding and 43 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: and and also this this rap That's one of the 44 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: big things I think is that the twentieth century is 45 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: the ground from which all of this emerges, and it's 46 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: a time of just such rapid advancement technological advancement, like 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: this is the this is the the century in which 48 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: humans split the atom. Uh, this is this century where 49 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: the distances between the various corners of the earth shrank 50 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: and the advent of of of transportation, technology, mass communication 51 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: uh comes together. And then it's it's also just a 52 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: time of enormous social change. And as we all know, 53 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: like when there's enormous social changes that that's occurring, you know, 54 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: rather swiftly. Uh. This this creates um, This can create anxiety, 55 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: this can create this certainly creates hope. But it's going 56 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: to have a cultural effect on people as they're trying 57 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,399 Speaker 1: to come to terms with what the world is doing 58 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 1: and what the world is becoming and how they fit 59 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: into that world. Right. And the way that these cultural 60 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: effects seem to be taking places through what we referred 61 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: to briefly in the last episode as false memories, Right, 62 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: This is the terminology that's being used to describe this. 63 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: Psychologists believe these stories, they're they're distorting things like childhood 64 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: memories where an alien is standing in for a person 65 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: who abused the the abductee. Right. But then this has 66 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: been countered by abductee as you say, well I never 67 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: experienced child abuse, right, And then you've got false memory 68 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: implantation as an idea that it's not that you're remembering 69 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: something that didn't happen, it's that during the the therapy 70 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: session in which you were trying to figure out what happened, 71 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: somebody accidentally implanted a false memory. There. It's that easy. Yeah. Now, 72 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: one of the possible explanations that I I I'm not 73 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: saying i'd buy into this. I think it's an interesting 74 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: read on what could be occurring. This comes from psychologist 75 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: Frederick the Malmstrom. Yeah. So, in in this theory that's 76 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: presented by Melmstrom, the abductees are remembering their births and 77 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: the spaceship that they're seeing is actually a symbol of 78 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: their mother's birth canal. Now again, here's another one that's 79 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: been refuted by abductees because they say, well, I want 80 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: under a cesarean birth, So how would I possibly remember 81 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: the birth canal? Why would you possibly have any trauma 82 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: about that? Yeah? Exactly. You know who would have loved 83 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: this theory? Huh giga, Yeah, yes, very much so. But 84 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: but you know, when you break down the science of it, 85 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: I think it has a lot going forward because you 86 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: have to consider newborns have limited visual capabilities. They can't 87 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: see very far or in very much detail, and color 88 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: distinctions barely register. So this stigmatism smears the images that 89 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: they behold. So what do they see when they look 90 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: at their mom's face. They see two large, dark eyes 91 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: and an otherwise blurred and colorless face. So you can 92 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: make the argument that when that you know that that cooing, 93 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: wide eyed baby is looking up at you, mom or 94 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: dad or anybody getting caregiver, they're seeing a gray alien 95 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: staring down at them. And so the argument here is 96 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: the other we're we're drawing on that that old memory, 97 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: that's that's sort of rising to the surface. Uh, perhaps 98 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: in combination with any number of the scenarios that we 99 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: discussed in part one, something to remember the next time, 100 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: like a friend or a co worker brings in a 101 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: newborn and everybody just huddles around that newborn and just 102 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, gets right on top of it in its 103 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: personal space. You are potentially creating a future alien abductee experience. Yeah, 104 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: that kid's gonna end up just being addicted to XCOM 105 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: based on what he experienced here today. But actually getting 106 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: into the false memory implantation aspect here, it's important to 107 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: recognize that hypnotherapists that are involved in this, they're actually 108 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: earnest about their desire to help a patient. I think 109 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: it's really easy for us to say, like either or 110 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: the patients lying or the hypnotherapist is like maliciously manipulating them. Right, 111 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: that doesn't seem to be the case. But experimental psychology 112 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: is shown that it's actually relatively easy to implant false 113 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: memories in an individual's mind, and in the study, researchers 114 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: were able to implant false memories of getting lost in 115 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: a shopping mall in participants. Another two thousand and one 116 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: study showed that even when events were unlikely, for instance, 117 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: an abduction by aliens, they can be implanted as false memories. 118 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: Suggestive information presented to the participants can actually increase the 119 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: plausibility of us Supposedly imply possible event to them. And 120 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: this was further shown in a two thousand nine study 121 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: by Utgar, Candele, and merkel Bach oh and also Wade 122 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: for four authors there, and they showed that you can 123 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: implant false memories of alien abduction by paying special attention 124 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: to the way that participants described the event during an interview. 125 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: And what they would do is they this also seems 126 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: crazy to me. Uh. They used children as participants, and 127 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: I wrote in the notes what they would take kids, 128 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: and they showed them the event during an interview. They 129 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: showed them these fake newspaper articles and that would allow 130 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: them to implant memories of alien abduction being a thing. 131 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: Then the kids, these were seven to twelve year olds, 132 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: and thirty three percent of them developed false memories during 133 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,119 Speaker 1: the first interview. Then they did a secondary interview, another 134 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: six percent developed false memories. The younger children were more 135 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: likely to develop false memories and the older chidren were 136 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: But then get this, children were equally likely to develop 137 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: a false memory about alien abduction as they were to 138 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: develop a false memory about choking on candy. So they 139 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: had a control group where they were trying to also 140 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: implant memories of them choking on candy It worked the 141 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: same way, so the unlikelihood didn't seem to be a factor. 142 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: Why do you have to just throw in from my 143 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: own experience that the memories of small children. It's strange 144 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: because I'll take my my my son to school, pick 145 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: him up, and I'll say, hey, what what do you 146 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: do today? I don't know, I don't remember, like just 147 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: note and then he'll say, hey, do you remember that 148 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: dead spider we found like three years ago? You know, 149 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: bring up this this this minute memories like why are 150 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 1: you believe? Why do you remember that? Why are you 151 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: remembering it now? And then there's also there also be 152 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: there also incidents where there will there will be false memories. 153 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: Either it will be something that he doesn't remember but 154 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: we have told him about, and then he ends up 155 00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 1: he thinks he has a memory of it, or will 156 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: be some thing that he just kind of completely fabric 157 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: like he knows it happened, and then he has a 158 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: memory that he's put together off it. And I think 159 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: if we, if each of us thinks back to our 160 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: earliest memories, we run into that that situation. You have 161 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 1: to ask yourself, is this something that I actually remember happening? 162 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: Is this something that my parents told me about, and 163 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: I'm kind of I've made a memory out of being 164 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: told what I should have experienced. Yeah, I've been thinking 165 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: about this lately. Um, My sister's grandfather in law just 166 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: passed away, and she's been trying to explain to her 167 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: three year old son they live in that they lived 168 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: in the house with her grandfather in law, and she's 169 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: trying to explain to her son where papa went. And 170 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: he's three. He doesn't have an understanding of the difference 171 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: between life and death, right, he's still struggling with that concept. 172 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: So she says to him, Papa is in heaven. Now, um, 173 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: you know that it gives him an idea of like, Okay, 174 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: there's this physical place called heaven that that he went to. 175 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: I'll see him again there or something like that, right, 176 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: And but she's having a really hard time with it. 177 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: And then he'll he'll occasionally like walk in the living 178 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: room and be like, where's Papa, And then he'll go, 179 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: He'll he'll self correct and he'll go, oh, wait, that's right, 180 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: He's in heaven. And then just kind of, you know, 181 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: trod on and keep doing his little kids stuff, and uh, 182 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: it keeps making me think, like, well, from my experience, 183 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: I don't really retain any memories from that age, But 184 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: is this something that he's going to remember later on 185 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: in his teenage years and he'll be like, oh, yeah, 186 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: like I had this firmly embedded idea of heaven as 187 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: a as a place on earth kind of intended. Well, 188 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: you know, I actually I know somebody who had you know, 189 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: similar everybody has situations I think where and I'll remember 190 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: the family dies while the child is too younger really understood, 191 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: and so they told him all of that, you know 192 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: this individuals in the sky now, like he went to 193 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: the sky. But I think it ended, if I remember correctly, 194 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: it ended up making the child a little afraid, more 195 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: afraid of roller coasters because they did not want to 196 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: go into the sky. That this guy was like where 197 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: everybody who had died? So creepy idea. Yeah, well, alright, 198 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: So all of this stuff leads scientists to the conclusion 199 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 1: that the improbability of an event isn't actually a leading 200 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: factor in false memory implantation success. And this leads us 201 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: back to good old McNally and Clancy, who we talked 202 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: about a lot last episode. They researched memory function in 203 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: women who believed they had recovered memories of childhood's sexual abuse, 204 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: and they actually found that such victims were more likely 205 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: to create false memories of non traumatic events when they 206 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: were visiting in the laboratory then women who had always 207 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: remembered being sexually abused or women who had never been abused. 208 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: So to study this further without unethically inserting false memories 209 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: of trauma into people, this is why they got into 210 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: the alien abductee study business. So they said, let's amass 211 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: a group of people who have these memories but that 212 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: they're unlikely to have actually occurred. Uh. And I want 213 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: to note here to very little of the research on 214 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: alien abductions actually focuses on the practice of the hypnotherapy itself. 215 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: Um So the like broader review of all this stuff 216 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: essentially recommends, look, we need to do further research until 217 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: the dynamics of hypnotherapy before we really understand the full 218 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: parameters of what's happening here now. In part one of 219 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: this two partner on alien abduction, we we talked a 220 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: good bit about media scripts cultural scripts, the idea that 221 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: when something strange occurs, you have these pre existing narratives 222 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: to draw upon to explain it, be it something to 223 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: be you know, magical ferries or ghosts or alien abduction, 224 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: and uh, there's a there's actually an interesting argument here that, like, 225 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: it's easy to get lost in the space age sci 226 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: fi aspects of alien abduction and think, well, this is 227 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: something wholly new. This is something that they just you know, 228 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: appears in the wake of the Second World War and 229 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: becomes the new cultural script for paranormal experience. But it 230 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: has a lot in common with older models as well. 231 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: And this is explored in a in an article titled 232 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: He's making me feel things in my body that I 233 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: don't feel. This is by Patricia Felicia Barbado and it 234 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: was published in the Journal of American Culture the subtitle 235 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: The Body as Battleground in Accounts of Alien Abduction. So 236 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: she makes the case that the late twentieth century alien 237 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 1: abduction stories essentially powered by the seventeenth through nineteenth century 238 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: American obsession with the Native American captivity narrative. So, I 239 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: don't know if everyone's familiar with this. If you've watched 240 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: a lot of Westerns, you may have come across this, 241 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: And certainly if you've if you've studied history. I imagine 242 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: this has come up on stuff you missed in history 243 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: class o our sister podcast, Uh here at how stuff works. 244 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: But basically, you had you had these these in students 245 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: where and then the resulting tales and of course fictionalizations 246 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: in many cases where a Caucasian woman was abducted and 247 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: brutalized by by Native American tribes and in many cases 248 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: absorbed irreversibly into their culture. I want to say this 249 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: comes up in the the the John Wayne movie The Searchers. 250 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: I've never seen The Searchers, but I immediately jumped to 251 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: a more recent movie Bone Tomahawk, which you and I 252 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: both sort of enjoyed. Yeah, that plays on a similar narrative, 253 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: the idea that the you know, the the cultural other, 254 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: the barbaric cultural other, has come and taken someone away. 255 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of fictionalization there. But of course 256 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: there were incidents of of things like this occurring, and 257 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: then there were the the the idea of reclaiming someone 258 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: from that ended up being far more problematic because either 259 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: they were irreversibly assimilated into that culture to varying degrees, 260 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: or there was just there was at the very least 261 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: a lot of trauma had taken place. Uh maybe the 262 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: most like popular film that people would be familiar with 263 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: that that that this trope showed up in his Dances 264 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: with Wolves, because, um is Mary McCormick. Her character his Caucasian, 265 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: and she's been living with a native tribe since she 266 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: was a kid, like basically raised among them. Yeah, okay, 267 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: so I either haven't seen her, it's been so long 268 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: that I don't remember anything about it. But yeah, I 269 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: think that that very much plays on it. And the 270 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: thing is that these there were accounts of these abductions 271 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: published in the thousands, so this is like the Boogeyman 272 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: of that time. Yeah, yeah, it was everywhere. And um 273 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: so the idea here is the captive woman in these 274 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: accounts serves as a kind of physical battleground for the 275 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: premise of noble white superiority over the you know, the 276 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: dark savage tribal other from beyond the frontier. So the 277 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: racist boundary here only exists artificially, of course, but the 278 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: captivity experience tears apart the fiction in no time. Yeah. 279 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: So here's what Barbados has to say. Quote. But while 280 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: accounts of alien abduction present us with stark racial, spatial 281 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: and culture world differences human and alien, Earth and outer space, 282 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: technology and nature that are reminiscent of Indian captivity narrative. 283 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: They do so only to turn our attention to the 284 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: way that the captive's body completely fails to impose boundaries 285 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: between them. It's interesting like that, like we used to 286 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: other human beings that were from different cultures, and then 287 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: we hit this point in the twentieth century where I mean, 288 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: it's not to say that we don't demonize other people, 289 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: because we certainly still do, but that we became sort 290 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: of more of a you know what if you want 291 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: to call it global village enough that you could sympathize 292 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: with most other cultures, so then the other ing had 293 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: to turn into something outside of Earth. Yeah. So I 294 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: mean that's that's just one one example of the kind 295 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: of like deep cultural and analyzes that that they can 296 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: and do take place concerning the alien aductive narrative, like 297 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: not only where does it come from, but why does 298 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: it have so much so much power over us? I mean, 299 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: you get into this a lot with with fiction, right 300 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: where you have like revenge tales. Revenge tails have always 301 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: been popular. The revenge tale itself hasn't really changed, but 302 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: it we just continually update it for our our modern 303 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 1: our modern world and whatever the latest technological or cultural 304 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: trend happens to be. Yeah, this is true. I think 305 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: you could probably like look at any year's worth of 306 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: films and you can like drop a pin and be like, Okay, 307 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: there's the revenge tail of the year, right, Like I 308 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: guess this year's would be like Atomic Blonde. Yeah. I 309 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: haven't seen it yet, but but it just me I 310 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: want to see a like a version of The Searchers 311 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: with alien abduction, but not cowboys versus aliens. Something I 312 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: think you. I think you just like like opened up 313 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: a bank account for somebody in Hollywood. All right, Well, 314 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: on that note, let's take a break and when we 315 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: come back, we will we'll dive deeper into the angst 316 00:17:53,000 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. All right, we're back. So there's 317 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: this twenty sixteen Boston Globe article that had a really 318 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: interesting take on the alien abduction phenomena, and it found 319 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: the following themes were essentially social currents that all fed 320 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: into alien abductions over the last few decades. The first 321 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: one we already mentioned space exploration in the fifties and sixties. 322 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: Then you've got the Cold War that's inspiring a fear 323 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: of invasions. You get stuff like invasion of the body snatchers, etcetera. 324 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: And then out of body experiences that we were having, 325 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: whether it be from mysticism or from drugs. Oh yeah, 326 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: I mean when you factor in the rise of the 327 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,959 Speaker 1: counterculture movement and psychedelic experience on top of all of 328 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: this totally, and then the nineteen eighties fear of strangers. 329 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: And this is something that was easy for me to 330 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: forget because you know, we grew up in the eighties, 331 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: but obviously it wasn't like that before then, right there. Uh, 332 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: But there were so many stories about child abduction and 333 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: sexual molestation being reported in the news that this became 334 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: like a common cultural narrative. So you get all four 335 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: of those together, you you, you know, stir them up 336 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: in a pot together, and you get a perfect brew 337 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: for alien abduction stories. Now here's an interesting thing again, 338 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: X Files fan over here. I didn't know this. Apparently 339 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: Chris Carter was at San Diego Comic Con one year. 340 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: Chris Carter is the guy who was the showrunner and 341 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: creator of The X Files and he said, you know 342 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: why the show stopped working, It was because of nine eleven, 343 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: And he said the mood wasn't right anymore, that like 344 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: there was something about nine eleven that made the like 345 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: the magic of the X Files stick that was gone. 346 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: I don't know, I've watched a lot of X Files. 347 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: I think the show would pretty much petered out. Well, yeah, 348 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: it's not like we we abandoned magical the narratives after exactly. Mean, 349 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: certainly there was probably more of a mean, did did 350 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: stuff like uh, what was it twenty four? Did that 351 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: come out post nine level? Yeah? I'm pretty sure. So 352 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: maybe there was. I could see where there was an 353 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: opening for for stories that sort of you know, delivered 354 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: the type of content that might resonate more in the 355 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: wake of nine eleven. But certainly we still were into aliens, 356 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: were still into ghosts, and I mean all the ghost 357 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: Hunter shows seemed to have come sprung up in the 358 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: wake of very much. Did you ever watch that show Fringe? 359 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: I I watched a little of it. It looked it 360 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: was one of those shows that that looked really cool, 361 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: but I just didn't get hooked in it. It was fun. 362 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: It took me a while to like really get cemented 363 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: into it. But once I'd say, like after the second season, 364 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: I was like a die hard follower of it. But um, 365 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: that show did a good job of taking nine eleven's 366 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: trauma and mixing it in with the like general paranormal 367 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: stuff that the X Files was playing around with. Yeah. Um, 368 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: And I think that that is probably part of why 369 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: I was successful. But also I have to say, Chris 370 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: Carter uh just wasn't writing great stuff anymore. Man. I mean, 371 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: if you saw any of that X Files revival last year, 372 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: like all the episodes that he wrote were just like 373 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: cringe worthy, Whereas like the other guys who came back 374 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: to some of the best work, like Darren Morgan who 375 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: was talking about Last Time, Glenn Morrigan, and um, I 376 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: believe it's James Wong. Okay, Well, you know another source 377 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: that that I was looking at in terms of figuring 378 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: out the cultural residents of all of this, uh is 379 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: a wonderful paper and this is available online if you 380 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: look it up. It's called is It Tomorrow or Just 381 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: the End of Time? UFO Culture and Cultural Anxiety, And 382 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: this is by Connie Smarris and she's primarily a photographer 383 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 1: and video artist based out of l A. But she 384 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: put together this wonderful paper that it references a lot 385 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: of like deeper literature on it, but I think she 386 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: does a wonderful job which is sort of summarizing what's 387 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: some of what might be going on. Yeah, I read 388 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: over part of this too, and from my perspective, it 389 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: looked like she was doing the opposite of what the 390 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: literature review was in academia. She was reviewing the phenomena, 391 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: but not looking at all the like academic articles, but 392 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: more looking at the speriential narratives and compiling them together. 393 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: So she was part of the article she was pointing to. 394 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: Intruders Foundation funded Roper Pole in Truders Foundation is a 395 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: you know, a group that was you know, aligned with 396 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: alien abduction experiences and you know, the study of them, Uh, 397 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: anyway to determine the percentage of the US population abducted 398 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: by aliens and some of the we already hit on 399 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: some of the big findings that have come out over 400 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: the year in terms of percentage of the population that's 401 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: expressed these things. But here's some of the more particular 402 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,959 Speaker 1: findings that she highlights here. It's a largely industrialized northern 403 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: hemisphere phenomenon mostly a US phenomenon. Abductees are mostly white 404 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: in middle class and uh, you know, it's worth noting 405 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: again that the first major case of alleged alien abduction 406 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: was that of Barney and Betty Hill. This was an 407 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: African American male and a white female, right, As we 408 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: mentioned last episode, that plays against the stereotype, right yeah, yeah, 409 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: And because for one thing, the majority of abductees are 410 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: when are actually women, though most of the movies and 411 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: TV representations involved men, And of course that just gets 412 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: into the you know, the sort of the sexist nature 413 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: of our our narratives, especially for most of the twentieth century. 414 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: If you're gonna make a TV show or a movie 415 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: about it or a book, it's going to be based 416 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: around a male um male character, right yeah, yeah, but 417 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: that ends up sort of skewing your public idea of 418 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: who's experiencing these in the real world. And there's also 419 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: the like this is related to the shark thing we 420 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: were talking about last time, there's like a kind of 421 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: like gross, I don't know, voyeurism about like the alien 422 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: abduction experience being performed on a woman, right in the 423 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: same way that like a woman in a bikini getting 424 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 1: eaten by a great white shark is somehow voaristic as well. 425 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: I can't quite put my finger on it. There's something 426 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: weird going on there. Well, it's like you're taking a 427 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: you're taking a potentially you know, unset only in an 428 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: unsavory real world scenario, and you're like, you're just subbing 429 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: in a fantastic element. So you're left with kind of 430 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: the same traumatic event. To your point that reproduction is 431 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: a common theme in these abduction tales. They might be 432 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: like a pregnancy tests, some sort of a false pregnancy, 433 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: egg harvesting, uh, you know, some sort of reproduction tinkering, 434 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: which again that that is something that is falls in 435 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: line with you know, incubine and succubie accounts and folklore 436 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: you know, throughout European history. But but in any rate, 437 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: there's the there's also this standardized daily and description. We've 438 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: talked about, this sort of embryonic looking grays. You see this, uh, 439 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: this use of telepathy, especially between like the leader alien 440 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: and the subject. The anal probing of males, which we 441 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,239 Speaker 1: haven't we haven't spent a lot of time with that. 442 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: I feel like you gotta work up to anal probing. Well, 443 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: there's also Connie Samaris's article on this. The wording is 444 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: wonderful and how she she talks about how that it's 445 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: so we're so specifically worried about male abductees being probed, 446 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: and yet there's very little talk about female abductees being probed. Yeah, exactly. Uh. Now, 447 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: on top of the probing, sometimes there's this element of 448 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: seduction by the examiner alien And most of these points 449 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: out are vastly heterosexual in nature, like to the point 450 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: where it would seem, based on these accounts that aliens 451 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: never abduct like a you know, a gay, lesbian or 452 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: bisexual individual. But so so we have to sort of 453 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: factor that into the whole you know, psychoanalysis of what's 454 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: going on uh PTSD nightmares afterward, we've already touched on that. Um. 455 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: This is interesting the idea that sometimes these run in 456 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: the family, that there's like a family legacy of alien 457 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: abduction scenarios. So it's like Jaws, like that the shark 458 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: keeps coming after the same family members. Yeah, Like, I 459 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: this is something I want to see an alien abduction 460 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: fiction more the idea that it runs in the family, 461 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: like it puts a weird spin on it. Then there's 462 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: the introduction of the idea that aliens will eventually bring 463 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: about wide sweeping social change and this is This is 464 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: interesting because it brings up the idea like, is this 465 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: in a way you know that this is this is 466 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: taking the trauma and the nightmare and twisting it into 467 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: something more hopeful, something fantastic, but also getting into this 468 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: idea that is that the only way that that sometimes 469 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: we can perceive sweeping social change, and it has to 470 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: come from the outside and it can't come from within. 471 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: This reminds me of a quote that I've mentioned on 472 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: the show before, uh, and I'm having a hard time 473 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: placing where it came from, so sorry listeners, But Uh, 474 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: it goes something like this, it's easier for us to 475 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: imagine an apocalypse than it is for us to imagine 476 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: a positive society that doesn't exist within capitalism, right, Like, 477 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: it's so hard to imagine something that's outside of our 478 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: frame of reference that the only, no, the only way 479 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: we know how to imagine it is, uh, is by 480 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: destroying it. Oh. I know it was Frederick Jamison, Who's ah, well, 481 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: you know this. This factors into a lot of the 482 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: writings about alien abduction and certainly the scenarios where it 483 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: takes on this hopeful uh, you know, messengers from beyond um, 484 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, coming here to make the world a better place. 485 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: That one of the other big elements of the twentieth 486 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: century is this angst over what we're doing to the planet, 487 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: over over pollution, over over the the threat of nuclear annihilation. 488 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: This all comes to hang over even the average individual's head. 489 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: And then how do we how do we process that, 490 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: and how do we how does it factor into these experiences? 491 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: You know what I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go down 492 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: a little bit of a sidebar here. But that's why 493 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: we did two episodes. Uh, I've been experiencing this lately, 494 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: and I haven't I haven't felt this way since like 495 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: the I guess early nineties, the Cold War fear of 496 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: the nuke, you know, like that was something that I 497 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: thought we were done with that I had kind of 498 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: gotten to a point in my consciousness where I wasn't 499 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: always worrying like, well, it could just happen at any time, 500 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: you know, and like um, the fear of nuclear winter 501 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: and all all these things that like, you know, you 502 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: saw a lot of this manifest in nineteen eighties films, 503 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: and now with all this stuff ramping up with North Korea, uh, 504 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: between the United States and North Korea. For those that 505 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: are in American back and forth, there's our media is 506 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: very much like, oh my god, like they've got I 507 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: c B M S. What's going to happen? You know, 508 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: Like I even like talking to my mother, she was like, well, 509 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: you gotta be careful where you live in the United 510 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: States now. You don't want to live on the West 511 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: Coast because you could just get bombed by the North Koreans. 512 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: And I was like, whoa, Like, where did that come from? 513 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: You know, um, we're right back there. Yeah, well, I 514 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: mean part of the disturbing answer is that, you know, 515 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: they're the risk of nuclear war never went away, It's right, 516 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,239 Speaker 1: has It has remained this whole time, and and there 517 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: have been there have been, you know a number of 518 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: very committed individuals working around the world to try and 519 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: get us to a better place where it's it's it's 520 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: less likely to occur. But the reality is that we 521 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 1: we have these weapons, we have weapons systems set up 522 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: to to make it happen at the at any moment, 523 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: and those the humans and the systems are both both falliable. So, UM, 524 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: I wonder if you're going to start to see a 525 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: resurgence in uh, those kind of fears though again in 526 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: our fiction, I mean, yeah, I would. It will be 527 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: interesting to see if it's just a if it's a 528 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: complete rehash of how we manifested those fears before, if 529 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: there is some sort of new spin on it that 530 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: you know that we can't quite expect. Alright, Well, on 531 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: that note, on the note of nuclear annihilation, let's take 532 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: another break, and when we come back, we will continue 533 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: to discuss uh, this this paper by Connie Samaris and 534 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: uh and just the overall alien abduction scenario. Alright, we're back. 535 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: So uh. Samaris brings up two key individuals, um and 536 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: there their alien of abduction abduction researchers, And I wasn't 537 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: really that familiar with either of them, but they're both 538 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: fascinating in their own rights. So the is Bob Hopkins. 539 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: This is a guy who advocated the physical reality of aliens, 540 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: Like he believed that alien abductions were actually happening and 541 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: that we should be studying and listening to the individuals 542 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: who experienced them and you know, figuring out how to 543 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: help them. But he also, interestingly enough, believed that media 544 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: representations could be coloring the experiences as well, which I 545 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: find interesting because it's, as we've already mentioned, we want 546 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: to we tend to want to fall into a you know, 547 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: a skeptic or believer uh dichotomy here, the idea that 548 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: either alien abduction is happening or it is this you know, 549 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: skeptical model where people are having false memories, et cetera. 550 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: And even Bud Hopkins, who's more of a literalist here 551 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: is or was saying that, well, hey, we could have 552 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: this situation where it's actually happening, but then our sci 553 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: fi is coloring the experience as well. And then there's 554 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: this other individual, and this guy is really fascinating John E. Mac. Yeah, 555 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: this guy is all over the alien abduction literature, and 556 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: rightly so. He had a bestseller in the early nineties 557 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: about the research that he was doing. We We're gonna 558 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: go in a lot into Johnny Mac. Yeah. So he 559 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: was a psychiatrist and a parapsychologist. I mean, he kind 560 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: of started out as more of a pure skeptic, but 561 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: then as he he moved along, he's researching, he's talking 562 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: to individuals. He ends up taking on this more of 563 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: a this more of the spiritual model of what's happening. 564 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: Is he's seeing it as a spirit spiritual experimental phenomenon 565 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: in keeping with past quote visionary encounters experienced by humans 566 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: around the world, which on one hand is saying, you know, 567 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: that's what we've been saying, like clearly we've been having 568 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: the same experiences throughout human history, and we just wrap 569 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: it up in different rappers. But he ends up saying 570 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: that there's something there is something truly amazing happening beyond 571 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: like human understanding. Mac is one of these figures we 572 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: come across these characters occasionally. They're sort of like stuff 573 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: to blow your mind icons, like the sort of legendary figures. 574 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: And he actually passed away in two thousand and four, 575 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: but I'm thinking of like Sasha Shulgun or John C. 576 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: Lily or Jack Parsons. Right, he's like these thinkers that 577 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: were like they had one leg in science and one 578 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: leg and something else, right, And he's kind of like that, Yeah, yeah, 579 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: he really has a leg in both both areas. He's 580 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: able to I think piss off people Bethides exactly. So 581 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: I ran across a Nova interview with him, and he 582 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: said that one of our our problems is that we 583 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: want to explain alien reduction, and phenomenon is either a 584 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: literal encounter or with aliens, or or some sort of 585 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: a spiritual situation. And he argues that it's something in between, 586 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: or it could be something in between. So I have 587 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: a quote here from him, he says quote. So the 588 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: simple answer would be, yes, it's both. It's both literally 589 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: physically happening to a degree, and it's also some kind 590 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: of a psychological spiritual experience occurring and originating perhaps in 591 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: another dimension. And so the phenomenon stretches us, or it 592 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: asks us to stretch, to open to realities that are 593 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: not simply the literal physical world, but to extend to 594 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: the possibility that there are other unseen realities from which 595 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,239 Speaker 1: our consciousness are, if you will. Learning processes over the 596 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: past several hundred years have closed us off. So I 597 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: think that's uh. I'm surprised this guy doesn't didn't really 598 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: amass a full cult following, like a pure religious following 599 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: based on the way he was navigating like both interpretations here. Yeah, 600 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: I told you this before we came to the studio. Actually, 601 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: I read an interesting bio piece about him and then 602 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: other researchers. So both McNally and Clancy, who I've been 603 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: siting throughout these two episodes, were also at Harvard University 604 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: at the same time Mac was. There was conflict between 605 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: their their views about the alien abduction experience. It was 606 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: interesting in that piece they described the alien abductees that 607 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: Mac worked with as being like acolytes to him, like 608 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: though the way that he was dreaming what was happening 609 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: to them was so appealing that it it did almost 610 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: have a kind of cultish quality to it. Yes, Samaris summarizes. 611 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: She says, the main drive of people like Mac, Jacobs, 612 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: and Hopkins is to assure us that these are not 613 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: the delusions of psychotic people, primarily women, but rather the 614 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: true experiences of normal, everyday people suffering great anguish, silence 615 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: and stress about having absolutely no control over repeated violations 616 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,399 Speaker 1: of their psyches and bodies. And I think that's that's 617 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: rather telling you, because you also get down to I 618 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: think the skeptical view here and saying, well, you know, 619 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: what kind of trauma is, what kind of feelings about 620 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: your place in the world are at the heart of 621 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: of these the of you know, false memories and you know, 622 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: fantastic experiences that are reported. I think, let me see 623 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: if I can try to frame this in a way, 624 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: although you know he's passed, so I don't know how 625 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: well I can do this. But it seems to me 626 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: that what mac was trying to do was begin a 627 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: lie and of inquiry into what was going on with 628 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: alien abduction that wasn't immediately hostile in its skepticism, right, 629 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: That wasn't immediately saying you're a liar or you've been 630 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: duped by an evil hypnotherapist, right Like. He was trying 631 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: to unpack it in a way that had sympathy for 632 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: these victims, right, Um, But he wasn't quite all the 633 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: way there to the like the empirical unpacking that McNally 634 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: and clancy got to with sleep paralysis and false memory implantation. Yeah. 635 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: And I think also, I mean, just based on that 636 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: quote that I read earlier, you can tell that there 637 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 1: is a there is a like a spiritual element to 638 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: his interpretation that is just not going to sit well 639 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: with with skeptical audiences. Now, another point that to some 640 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: Mars makes is she says that that then in all 641 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: of these alien induction snares, there are other elements of 642 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: quotes quote progressive social order, racism, homophobia, heterosexual angst, fear 643 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: of white domin, desire by white people to be dominated 644 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: and taken, gender dysphoria. So she and she also argues 645 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 1: that there's a you know, obviously a lot of sexual 646 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: abuse and a general co opting a feminist sexual abuse 647 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: language by males. He's interesting interesting to end up with 648 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: these the scenarios where a you know, white middle class 649 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: American male in the seventies or eighties is having this 650 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: experience where he's lost control and is sexually violated by 651 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: this outside force. And so you can instantly think to 652 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: a number of different cultural elements that could be they 653 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: could be influencing that, Like is this individual like is 654 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: he afraid of the is there some sort of like 655 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: a deep hidden fear of of like what's going on 656 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: in the in the gay rights movement, cultural change in 657 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: that regard, Just trying to wrap your head around that, 658 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: like wrapping your like if you're I'm again like I'm 659 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: picturing like a real like Madman type character here is 660 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: like very straight laced, kind of by the books suburban, 661 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: straight white man who's in power, right, and like trying 662 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: to wrap your head around gay rights, are trying to 663 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,800 Speaker 1: wrap your head around what was going on with women 664 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: in the seventies when they are coming forward with stories 665 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: about sexual abuse, stuff that you used to be covered up, 666 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,439 Speaker 1: you know. I mean like maybe that's what what part 667 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: of this was, was them trying to understand it by 668 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: by making it about themselves. Yeah, yeah, trying to like 669 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: women's rights being a big issue and and and uh, 670 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,359 Speaker 1: you know, reproductive rights especially, like you can imagine this 671 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 1: being sort of the weird treatment of that. I mean, 672 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: that's that's one of the the academic reads on Ridley 673 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: Scott's Alien is that you're you're taking a lot of 674 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: like sexual violence and sexual biology for the female and 675 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: transforming it into a horrific male experience. Yeah, I feel 676 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: like there is uh and maybe this is out there 677 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: and we just because there was so much research we 678 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: couldn't tap into it. But there's like definitely a feminist 679 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: read on on this whole phenomenon, right that you could 680 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 1: kind of take a look at it and see, like 681 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: why is it that like, for instance, like what you 682 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: were saying earlier that like in these stories, women are 683 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: the ones who are self reporting more than men, but 684 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: then subsequently media representations are more about men than they 685 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: are about women. Like there's there's all kinds of things 686 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: that are related to gender with this, which is not 687 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: something I expected to come away with when we dove 688 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: into the research. Yeah, I mean neither. Now. The other 689 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: thing that's interesting here too, is she is hearkening back 690 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: to the study that we briefly mentioned about Baumeister and Newman, 691 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: where they were essentially saying that, Yeah, this whole thing 692 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: is about essentially the victims or masochists and they just 693 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: like want to be dominated. Yes, And you know this 694 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: comes up if we both end up seeing fire in 695 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: the sky. I know this will come into play when 696 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: we look at the at the scene where the aliens 697 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: abduct the individual and perform experiments, because it is it 698 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: is very bondage. Is that essentially that like the the 699 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: individuals like sealed under a vinyl sheet and then they 700 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: still like cut through the sheet in order to probe them. 701 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: But they seem to do a pretty fantastic job of 702 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: drawing upon actual alien abduction related experiences, sort of Nightmarrick 703 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: Cinematic Dream scenarios and also B D s M culture 704 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: like they somehow wrap it all up in a in 705 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 1: a in a fresh package. I'm looking forward to checking 706 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: it out. I noticed it's on Amazon Prime, so I'm 707 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 1: gonna try to watch. Uh and and again I haven't 708 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: seen it, but from what I saw in the trailer, 709 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: Communion seems to have a sort of similar vibe to 710 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: it as well. Oh yeah, Communion is a that's that 711 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: is a whole uh, that's a that's a whole kettle 712 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: official into itself with the author Whitley Strieber Um, it 713 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: was like publication. Communion a true story was the name 714 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: of the book, and then was made into a film 715 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: with the Christopher Walkin. I write the trailer looks a 716 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: little ludicrous because of our sort of associations with Christopher 717 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: Walkin now in that voy but it seems menacing. Yeah. Yeah, 718 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,839 Speaker 1: it came up in some of the research here because 719 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: I know that he was kind of he was kind 720 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: of a divisive figure even within like alien abduction communities. 721 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: There were there was at least one of one of 722 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: the There was one critic in particular I think that 723 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 1: was was not happy with the like the sexual aspects 724 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: of his uh, his alleged encounters, and they were just 725 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: kind they were kind of ridiculing him within the alien 726 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: abduction community. All right, well, I'm gonna try to do 727 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: my homework before we hit a trailer talk, which would 728 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: be the trailer talk will actually come out probably the 729 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 1: day after this episode airs, but for you, for all 730 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: of you, I'll have like a good seven days. Now. 731 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 1: I want to come back around to Mac again, because 732 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: there's this interesting thing that's going on at Harvard University. 733 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: Back in two thousand three, it was ground zero for 734 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,280 Speaker 1: this debate over what was actually going on with alien abduction. 735 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: So you've got John Mac on one side, and Susan 736 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: Clancy and Richard McNally and another, and they're all there. 737 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: Mac argued that the experiences couldn't be understood in the 738 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: Western rationalist tradition of science, while you've got McNally and 739 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: clancy countering, well, actually, Mac, the answer to alien abduction 740 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: is is very simple. And then they outline, you know, 741 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: they say, we don't think the abductees are lying, but 742 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: that Mac himself is just entertaining far fetched ideas in relation. Right, 743 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: He's not really, he doesn't seem like he's really using 744 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: Okham's razor here, right, yeah, yeah, and uh so this 745 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: was actually quite a problem for Harvard University, is so 746 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: to be clear here though, I don't want to malign mac. 747 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: This guy performed hypnotherapy on his patients and published thirteen 748 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: of those encounters in his book Abduction, which I mentioned 749 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: earlier as being very popular. He was a firm believer 750 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: in that practice, and he believed he retrieved his own 751 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: memories of his mother's death, which occurred when he was 752 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: eight months old. So that's how much of a proponent 753 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 1: he was for hypnotherapy. He was said to prize the 754 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 1: experiential narrative over empirical data, so you can see where 755 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: scientists would feel like, well, that's definitely drawing a line 756 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: in the sand that we don't want to be on 757 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 1: that side of. Uh now. So to give you a 758 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 1: sort of outline of his Harvard experience, he was on 759 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: the faculty there since nineteen fifty five, and then in 760 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two he founded the Center for Psychology and 761 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: Social Change. There, his work often straddled conventional science and 762 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: altered states of consciousness. Sounds just like our kind of guy. 763 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: When he founded the Department of psychiatry at the Cambridge 764 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: Hospital in nineteen sixty nine. This ended up attracting innovative 765 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: Eastern oriented psychiatrists, and then Mac himself studied the guided 766 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 1: meditation of Werner Erhard as well as Stanislav Gravs holotropic breathwork, 767 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: which essentially seeks to induce an altered state through rapid breathing. 768 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: And the faculty at Harvard were not thrilled with all this, 769 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: and especially with his alien abduction research, so they actually 770 00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: had a committee conduct a fifteen month investigation into his work. 771 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: But at the end of all that there was no 772 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: no formal censure. Essentially, the interviews with like the head 773 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 1: of the department, he was just like, look, we just 774 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: want him to be empirical about the way he's going 775 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 1: about this, that's all um. But I don't think they 776 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: could find anything that was like enough for them to 777 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, get rid of him. But to be clear here, 778 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: Mac distanced himself from whether or not aliens were real. 779 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: Every time somebody asked him about that, he said, you know, 780 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 1: what I'm more interested in is a consensus reality that 781 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: we've created that precludes us from ever entertaining the idea 782 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: of alien abductions, so he's more interested again in the 783 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: sort of cultural reality. So this is kind of fascinating 784 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,319 Speaker 1: this guy, like he was countercultural in his own way, 785 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: but at the same time, he wasn't like fully dipping 786 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: his toe into the alien abduction experience. And then he's got, 787 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,320 Speaker 1: you know, later in his career, he's got these colleagues 788 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 1: who show up at Harvard and they're like, actually, like, 789 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: we think we've got the answer here. Looks looks pretty straightforward. 790 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: We think it's a sleep paralysis combined with magical thinking, 791 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 1: combined with false memory implantation. Yeah, and then he's saying, no, 792 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: I'm not quite I'm not quite ready to admit that. 793 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 1: I think there's this there's this middle ground, and we 794 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,360 Speaker 1: haven't quite explored it. Yeah. I think all of this 795 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: presents an interesting vision though, that that, you know, that 796 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,720 Speaker 1: of people who felt the weight of of a century 797 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,880 Speaker 1: of technological and social change, who then experienced something or 798 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: assume the experience in varying ways that allowed them to 799 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: testify to it physically. You know, it's almost I really 800 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 1: almost get the sense of of people, and not just 801 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: like scattered individuals, but like large groups of people. In 802 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 1: the second half of the twentieth century who really felt 803 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 1: lost and unmoored and just powerless in what was happening, 804 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: and this was this was kind of a way to 805 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 1: to connect part of them to a to to some 806 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: sort of a guiding force. Yeah. And while I've never 807 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: had any kind of alien abduction experience growing up in 808 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: that period of time, and you know, I'm an adult now, 809 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: I look back and I have sympathy for that, Like 810 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,400 Speaker 1: there's a certain amount of that that makes sense, you know, 811 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: the feeling like there wasn't anything that was really grounding 812 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: me to the community I existed in. Um, let's do 813 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: a quick review of what we came to here, and 814 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: then I think we can close out this two parter. So, 815 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,239 Speaker 1: all right, what do we understand about alien abduction? Scientifically, 816 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 1: there doesn't appear to be any difference between abductees and 817 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: the general population in terms of their psychopathology and their 818 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,839 Speaker 1: personality type. So we established that. But there do seem 819 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 1: to be individual factors that can increase the likelihood of 820 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: people developing false memories for alien abduction, And the biggest 821 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 1: of these is the belief and interest in paranormal phenomenon. 822 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,879 Speaker 1: When you combine that with a susceptibility to hypnotic suggestions. 823 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,040 Speaker 1: Individuals can interpret events like sleep paralysis as alien in 824 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 1: abduction events, then it's possible for abductees to recover those 825 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,760 Speaker 1: false memories that have been accidentally implanted over the course 826 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 1: of hypnotherapy. And I think you know from that review 827 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,759 Speaker 1: that I was going over from Finkelstein, the big thing 828 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,840 Speaker 1: to take away from this is further research really seems 829 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,879 Speaker 1: to be needed into the hypnotherapy aspect of it, which 830 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: was John max sort of realm of inquiry, right, like 831 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,839 Speaker 1: he was really into that. But what we need more 832 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 1: research on is sort of the dynamics of how the 833 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: hypnotherapy is interacting with the human consciousness. Yeah, and of 834 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 1: course there's so many questions than about suggestibility, and yeah, uh, 835 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: this is definitely one of those episodes where I feel 836 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,839 Speaker 1: like we we kind of end with more questions than 837 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,040 Speaker 1: we began. I mean, I'm still very much in the 838 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,960 Speaker 1: in the category of of saying that I do not 839 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: think that aliens have visited our world, and I do 840 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 1: not think that the they have abducted people. But that 841 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: doesn't make what's going on any less amazing and interesting 842 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,200 Speaker 1: and and and ultimately like a little mysterious because we 843 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: have to try and piece it all together, both the 844 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,360 Speaker 1: scientific side of it and the cultural side of it. 845 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,920 Speaker 1: And that's that's where I think the really fascinating mysteries 846 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: here are. And this is a phrase that stuff to 847 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,760 Speaker 1: blow your mind. Listeners are probably sick of me making 848 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: on the show, But it seems to me like these 849 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,759 Speaker 1: are canaries in a coal mine, right that, like when 850 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,839 Speaker 1: you've got a subset of the population that is all 851 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,279 Speaker 1: they're coming up with this narrative that's incredibly similar and 852 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 1: we don't know where it's coming from. Rather than dismiss it, 853 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,759 Speaker 1: look at it and say, what is this saying about us? Like, 854 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,320 Speaker 1: what's what's going on? And but I don't mean that 855 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: this is like a warning bell like oh, aliens are 856 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 1: real and they're gonna attack or something. That's not what 857 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: I mean, but that there's something going on psychologically that 858 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,760 Speaker 1: we need to understand better about ourselves before we perceive. 859 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,319 Speaker 1: Because the other side of it, too is there were 860 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: not only the individuals that that claim to have these experiences, 861 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: but everybody else was eating it up and it still 862 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,680 Speaker 1: is eating it up, you know. So it's even if 863 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: you're not directly participating in the in the experience, you're 864 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,879 Speaker 1: still engaging in a vicarious experience with it, Like there's 865 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: something about that alien abduction narrative that still speaks to 866 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:23,879 Speaker 1: to so many denizens of the century. Yeah, I think 867 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,239 Speaker 1: I mentioned this to you. But Close Encounters of the 868 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,279 Speaker 1: Third Kind is coming up on its fort anniversary and 869 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: they're rereleasing it in theaters for a week, and my 870 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 1: wife wants to go see it because she has fond 871 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,399 Speaker 1: memories of that film. And I really thought to myself 872 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 1: for a second, I was like, I love that movie, 873 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: but is that Is that a movie that like a 874 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,760 Speaker 1: lot of people want to go see in the theater again? 875 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,239 Speaker 1: And clearly it must be if they're going to put 876 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,879 Speaker 1: the effort into that kind of marketing. And it makes 877 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,880 Speaker 1: you think, you know, forty years later, there's still enough interest, 878 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,319 Speaker 1: even in that fictional version of it, that there's got 879 00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: to be something going on. There's some kind of bell 880 00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: that's ringing deep in the back of our mind. Mhm, 881 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,719 Speaker 1: al right, Well, as do what that bell is and 882 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,040 Speaker 1: why it's ringing. We would we'd love to hear from 883 00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,759 Speaker 1: everyone out there, and we we'd specially love to hear 884 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,600 Speaker 1: from you. If you yourself have had a UFO or 885 00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: alien abduction experience, and I'd love to just I'd love 886 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,320 Speaker 1: to read what you have to say in terms of 887 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,840 Speaker 1: you know, self analysis of that and dissecting that, like 888 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,320 Speaker 1: what do you think was going on there? Um? You know, 889 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,640 Speaker 1: why did you why did you experience it? And how 890 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: have you how have you dealt with it since then? 891 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: And I really hope that like the way we've presented 892 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:36,080 Speaker 1: these two episodes on alien abduction have have shown that 893 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: we are sympathetic to this experience, but that we're trying 894 00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 1: to look at it through the lens of the research 895 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,919 Speaker 1: that's been done on it. Yeah. I mean, just because 896 00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 1: I don't think the aliens are real, it doesn't mean 897 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 1: that I think that the experience is invalid or that 898 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,840 Speaker 1: the experience is not real for a variety of reasons 899 00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,239 Speaker 1: that we discussed in these episodes. So if you want 900 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us about that stuff, here 901 00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:57,879 Speaker 1: are some ways you can do so. We're all over 902 00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,840 Speaker 1: social media. We're on Facebook, we're on Twitter, we're on Tumbler, 903 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: and we're on Instagram. Uh, you can also visit our 904 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,359 Speaker 1: website stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where 905 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,200 Speaker 1: you're gonna find uh these episodes, You're gonna find all 906 00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,399 Speaker 1: of our blog posts and all of our videos. In fact, 907 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,640 Speaker 1: uh we do have an older episode back when Julia 908 00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,480 Speaker 1: was co host about alien abduction too, so it might 909 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: be nice to listen to that and kind of see, 910 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,480 Speaker 1: like over the years, like what the transformation has been 911 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,239 Speaker 1: in in our perspective. Yeah, yeah, and uh hey, and 912 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 1: on Facebook, we have the the the Discussion module. Check 913 00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,160 Speaker 1: that out. That's our Facebook group. If you want a 914 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: more you know, personal interaction with other stuff to blow 915 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 1: your mind fans and with the with the host, then 916 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,759 Speaker 1: you can go there. It's a new project we've rolled 917 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 1: out and so far I think people are digging it. 918 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:47,400 Speaker 1: So so check it out and see if it's for 919 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,239 Speaker 1: you or if you just want to write us personally. 920 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 1: We'll have a like intimate discussion one on one that 921 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,959 Speaker 1: would be on email and it's that blow the mind 922 00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:08,239 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com for more on this 923 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,919 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is that how stuff Works 924 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 1: dot com. M