Speaker 1: But We Loved is a production of iHeart Podcasts and
Speaker 1: The Outspoken podcast Network.
Speaker 2: As mayor of Houston, I could not extend my benefits,
Speaker 2: my insurance benefits, my pension, any of those things to
Speaker 2: the first Lady of Houston. And even after we were
Speaker 2: married legally in another state, I could not extend benefits
Speaker 2: until the Supreme Court and their o Bergerfeld decision granted
Speaker 2: equal marriage rights. So seventeen and a half years full
Speaker 2: time public service, and I was a second class citizen
Speaker 2: to every one of my straight colleagues.
Speaker 1: As a gay kid, growing up religious and in the South,
Speaker 1: I thought being gay was the worst thing I could
Speaker 1: ever be. Now, as a journalist, I'm trying to unlearn
Speaker 1: that by seeking out our history, and what I've found
Speaker 1: are people and stories full of courage, perseverance, and love.
Speaker 1: In this episode, we'll meet a niece Parker, the first
Speaker 1: gay mayor of a major American city. We'll learn how
Speaker 1: her roots and queer activism led her into politics, and
Speaker 1: how a historical career in politics would bring her right
Speaker 1: back to where she came from. From My Heart Podcast,
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan Consolms, and this is what we Loved Recently,
Speaker 1: there's been an unprecedented amount of LGBTQ representation in American politics.
Speaker 1: As of twenty twenty four, there are multiple out governors, mayors,
Speaker 1: and members of Congress, but this is actually a pretty
Speaker 1: recent development. My next guest, Anise Parker, was the first
Speaker 1: openly gay mayor of a major American city. She was
Speaker 1: elected in two thousand and nine, and it just so
Speaker 1: happens that she was my mayor in my hometown of Houston, Texas,
Speaker 1: and I vividly remember the night she won. I was fourteen,
Speaker 1: and I was super closeted, and I was afraid to
Speaker 1: even admit to myself that I was gay, but I
Speaker 1: was rooting for her. The campaign had gotten nasty in
Speaker 1: the last month, and I'd even seen this flyer. It
Speaker 1: had a photo of her and her partner and the
Speaker 1: title read, is this the image Houston wants to portray?
Speaker 1: I watched on TV as the man behind that flyer
Speaker 1: was interviewed saying homosexuality leads to extinction. When she won,
Speaker 1: I was watching the local news with my parents, and
Speaker 1: I whispered to myself, yes, I think for all of us,
Speaker 1: it was the first time we ever saw a gay
Speaker 1: person in a position of power like that. But like
Speaker 1: many queer people, Anise Parker was closeted until college, and
Speaker 1: she never thought politics would be part of her destiny.
Speaker 1: What was it like growing up in Houston in the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties as a queer kid.
Speaker 2: So? I was born in nineteen fifty six and grew
Speaker 2: up in the Spring Branch area of Houston, which was
Speaker 2: way out in the country. It was cows and horsemasters
Speaker 2: and pretty earle at the time. I figured out when
Speaker 2: I was about twelve that I was gay, And it
Speaker 2: wasn't actually until we moved out of Houston. My dad
Speaker 2: was in the Red Cross but service to military installations
Speaker 2: and we did a two year stint in Germany in
Speaker 2: the middle of my high school years, and I that's
Speaker 2: when I fell in love for the first time.
Speaker 1: Wait, so tell me about that. You fell in love
Speaker 1: for the first time at fifteen years old.
Speaker 2: On a and you think Houston's conservative, try a military base.
Speaker 2: I was still in the fallout from Vietnam in a
Speaker 2: very conservative place. But it was fine until one day
Speaker 2: her parents walked in on us while we were kissing
Speaker 2: and separated us, told us that we were never going
Speaker 2: to see each other again. I was devastated, but we
Speaker 2: were desperate to see each other. So we worked out
Speaker 2: a plan and we started teaching Sunday School in the
Speaker 2: base chapel, and so the only time we got to
Speaker 2: see each other was was around Sunday mornings. But the
Speaker 2: happy end of the story at the at the end
Speaker 2: of the year of teaching Sunday School, and this is
Speaker 2: near the end of my junior year, the ministers over
Speaker 2: the Sunday School program, as a reward, took us to
Speaker 2: Paris for a weekend. We got to share a room
Speaker 2: together for the first They were completely clueless as too,
Speaker 2: but what was going on? But we were so excited,
Speaker 2: so like the first time really being alone with my
Speaker 2: girlfriend was a beautiful weekend in Paris. So but then
Speaker 2: that year ended, my family rotated back to the States
Speaker 2: did as did hers, into different places, and that was
Speaker 2: the end of that.
Speaker 1: You know, I wonder Mayor Parker like how that relationship
Speaker 1: kind of formed you, because it seems like it was
Speaker 1: sort of based in so much secrecy.
Speaker 2: What I figured out through that experience teaching Sunday School
Speaker 2: was hiding in plain sight. And I think throughout history
Speaker 2: a lot of LGBT folks have done that maybe put
Speaker 2: on a mask and figured out how to adapt and exist.
Speaker 1: I've read that you really struggled with your mental health
Speaker 1: growing up. What was that like.
Speaker 2: When I look back on my high school years being
Speaker 2: realizing it was a lesbian and navigating the fact that
Speaker 2: I was forbidden to see the person that I was
Speaker 2: in love with and I was crushed and lonely, and
Speaker 2: you know, warning that relationship. I was trying to create
Speaker 2: good habits, but the stress it caused me to to
Speaker 2: self harm. So yes, I became a cutter. The cutting
Speaker 2: is just is like next door to eating disorders. It
Speaker 2: is a way of controlling. It's something you can control
Speaker 2: in a world that you don't feel like that feels
Speaker 2: out of control. And fortunately I was able to put
Speaker 2: that aside and realize that there's only so many places
Speaker 2: and ways I could push myself that could still be
Speaker 2: and still be healthy. I never let myself get too
Speaker 2: far away.
Speaker 1: Wow, well, tell me now about what it was like
Speaker 1: coming out to your family.
Speaker 2: Naively, I thought that this is nineteen seventy four. Naively,
Speaker 2: I thought that, well, college is going to be so
Speaker 2: much better than high school. It's going to be it's
Speaker 2: not going to be repressive like the Army base. When
Speaker 2: I came to Rice, it was I'm going to be
Speaker 2: out from the first day, and so freshman week, orientation week,
Speaker 2: I came out in my residential college and discovered that
Speaker 2: no college was not that much more open minded than
Speaker 2: than than high school. And even though I wasn't the
Speaker 2: you know, the big city of Houston, it was not
Speaker 2: all that progressive. My junior year at Rice, I was
Speaker 2: the only junior that got that got a single room
Speaker 2: because no one wanted to enter the room lottery with me. Again,
Speaker 2: and I room with the lesbian because then everybody would
Speaker 2: think they were lesbian. I was out into my parents.
Speaker 2: In my senior year in college, I again I was.
Speaker 2: I was like the notorious, the notorious lesbian. I was
Speaker 2: actually playing in a powderputt football game, and as was
Speaker 2: my girlfriend, and she was from Houston and her mother
Speaker 2: for some reason had come to the game and she
Speaker 2: was sitting up in the stand and there's some football
Speaker 2: guys in front of her, and one of them pointed
Speaker 2: at me and said that I was a lesbian, and oh,
Speaker 2: and her lover is that one over there and pointed
Speaker 2: to my to my roommate, and it was her daughter,
Speaker 2: and she went home and had it out with her
Speaker 2: with her daughter. But she also sent my parents a letter.
Speaker 2: I was like an eight page letter and the first
Speaker 2: line was last year at Rice, your daughter and my
Speaker 2: daughter had a big love affair, and went on and
Speaker 2: on about how we need to stop to it. And
Speaker 2: my mother put it in another envelope and forwarded it
Speaker 2: to me. And then my girlfriend's mother tried to get
Speaker 2: me expelled. She went to the dean of students and
Speaker 2: asked that I be expelled. And we should remember that
Speaker 2: it was very common into the early seventies for universities
Speaker 2: to expel students from homosexual activities on campus. I have
Speaker 2: friends to whom that happened. We had a very awkward
Speaker 2: conversation and she asked me if I about my middle health,
Speaker 2: and I was like, how was I doing in classes?
Speaker 2: And she required me, and she required each of us
Speaker 2: to go have a couple of sessions with psychiatric services
Speaker 2: and then we went on our way. Wow, so I
Speaker 2: was outed, but they didn't want to hear it. And
Speaker 2: I think that happens again in a lot of families.
Speaker 1: At what point in your life did you realize that
Speaker 1: equality was something that was important to you.
Speaker 2: I graduated in nineteen seventy eight, but the following year,
Speaker 2: recognizing what I had gone through as a student and
Speaker 2: the challenges I had had, and wanted to make it
Speaker 2: easier and better for the next generation of students, I
Speaker 2: helped found the Rice University LGBT Student Association. It was
Speaker 2: called that Rice Gay and Lesbian Student Support Group. I
Speaker 2: had already graduated, but I was still engaged. We spent
Speaker 2: the next couple of years trying to become an official
Speaker 2: students association. There was at that time, I believe there
Speaker 2: was one at University of Texas, and there was one
Speaker 2: at the University of Houston, and there really weren't any
Speaker 2: others in the state of Texas. And ultimately we were
Speaker 2: officially recognized by the university, and I stayed involved for
Speaker 2: a lot of years, helping it grow.
Speaker 1: When we come back, a Nice Parker runs for office
Speaker 1: for the first time. It's the early nineties. A Nice
Speaker 1: Parker never thought politics was in her future, but being
Speaker 1: outed to her parents in college and then later founding
Speaker 1: the first LGBT group at Rice helped her realize that
Speaker 1: equality was important to her and something worth fighting for.
Speaker 1: She became president for what was then called the Houston
Speaker 1: Gay and Lesbian Political Caucus, and they wanted someone of
Speaker 1: their own to run and win a seat on Houston
Speaker 1: City Council in nineteen ninety one. So how did you
Speaker 1: get into politics?
Speaker 2: I never wanted to be in politics. I just wanted
Speaker 2: to fix things. I decided to run for city council
Speaker 2: because I was a lesbian activist. I was recruited by
Speaker 2: folks in the LGBTQ community. They wanted a candidate to
Speaker 2: run for city council who was open the lgbt And
Speaker 2: you know, my heart wasn't in it, and I was
Speaker 2: not a good candidate, and I lost the race in
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one. I curled up in a fetal position
Speaker 2: for a while because everything about campaigning is hard. I said,
Speaker 2: I'm never going to run for office again. It was
Speaker 2: a miserable experience. But a few years later an opportunity
Speaker 2: opened up. City council member Sheila Jackson Lee was elected
Speaker 2: to Congress and she vacated her city council seat. By
Speaker 2: this point, I was a civic club president and a
Speaker 2: very active in community. And this special election six week
Speaker 2: campaign December and January's mid January election, I can do this,
Speaker 2: and I lost. So in nineteen ninety seven ran for
Speaker 2: the third time, and I made appointments with the editorial
Speaker 2: directors of the TV stations and the papers, and laid
Speaker 2: out the portfolio and said, look at all of these,
Speaker 2: look at the coverage. You talk about what my opponents,
Speaker 2: where they work, what they do for a living. You
Speaker 2: refer to me as a gay activist. I actually have
Speaker 2: a job. I don't mind that you refer to me
Speaker 2: as a gay activist, but you need to be talking
Speaker 2: about these other folks. It's what they do in their
Speaker 2: volunteer time. Oh, by the way, I'm also the president
Speaker 2: of the Neartown Civic Association, and by the way, I'm
Speaker 2: president of the Neartown Community Development Corporation as a volunteer.
Speaker 2: But all you want to talk about is the fact
Speaker 2: that I'm a gay activist. How is this appropriate? Treat
Speaker 2: me the same way you treat everybody else. And by God,
Speaker 2: the third time I ran, the coverage changed. And so
Speaker 2: the third time I ran, I was an Ewes Parker
Speaker 2: who had virtually every minority elected official in the region
Speaker 2: on my endorsement list, and was successful and then one
Speaker 2: nine consecutive citywide races, including three terms as as mayor.
Speaker 2: But I didn't set out to be a mayor. I
Speaker 2: just set out to come to the city to work
Speaker 2: on issues.
Speaker 1: So in two thousand and nine, you run for mayor
Speaker 1: and they are these anti gay flyers that go out
Speaker 1: to voters saying people shouldn't vote for you because you're gay.
Speaker 1: So I'm just wondering, how are you dealing with that?
Speaker 1: Even though you had won previous races, this clearly was
Speaker 1: an issue for you.
Speaker 2: You know, my opponents were you know, politics actually weren't
Speaker 2: all that different. There were two one Progressive Democrat and
Speaker 2: one minorate Democrat, and they didn't talk about it. But
Speaker 2: a mailer went out citywide and it had a picture
Speaker 2: of me being sworn in as city controller. And I'm
Speaker 2: standing at a lovely dress on my hand raised. My
Speaker 2: wife is standing next to me. She's holding she's actually
Speaker 2: holding a company of the Constitution instead of a holy book.
Speaker 2: But I had my hands on the Constitution my hands,
Speaker 2: and I'm being sworn in as city controller by a
Speaker 2: black female federal judge in her row. And at the
Speaker 2: bottom of this mailer it says, is this the image
Speaker 2: of Houston? We want the world to see and it
Speaker 2: backfired spectacularly because he was obviously focusing on here I
Speaker 2: am on stage, you know, with another woman, and I'm
Speaker 2: not having my hand on the Bible and so forth.
Speaker 2: But women across the city like, well, okay, he doesn't
Speaker 2: like women politicians, he doesn't like black women, doesn't like
Speaker 2: women judges. I mean, it was actually a boost to
Speaker 2: my campaign. I have a little copy of it framed.
Speaker 2: And then when at the nine I was elected, my
Speaker 2: election got worldwide media coverage. It even got a little
Speaker 2: box in the Times of India. Someone sent it to me.
Speaker 2: Mayors of Houston don't normally make worldwide media coverage, but
Speaker 2: it was lesbian elected mayor of Houston, and that was
Speaker 2: all anybody wanted to talk about, lesbian mayor of Houston.
Speaker 2: I was caught off guard, and I think Houstonians were too,
Speaker 2: because I'd already been like the lesbian candidate and people knew.
Speaker 2: But suddenly the whole world was talking about it, and
Speaker 2: I was inundated with media. But I declined a lot
Speaker 2: of opportunities to talk to LGBT audiences. I didn't want
Speaker 2: to do the dog and Pony show. I just wanted
Speaker 2: to get down to the work of the city and
Speaker 2: doing the best mayor I could be. Now, I was
Speaker 2: aware that other people were watching, and that was a
Speaker 2: big deal to a lot of other folks, And so
Speaker 2: in my wrote I wrote my own victory speech. I
Speaker 2: wanted to acknowledge the history, but I also didn't want
Speaker 2: it to be the most important thing, because the most
Speaker 2: important thing for me was to connect to Houstonians and
Speaker 2: really get down to work. And so I made a joke.
Speaker 2: I talked about how Houston elected the first, the very
Speaker 2: first graduate of Rice University to be mayor of Houston,
Speaker 2: and like everybody burst out laughing. The tension left the room,
Speaker 2: and then I could talk about the fact that yes
Speaker 2: I was, you know, we've made history. I was the
Speaker 2: first LGBT mayor. And then quickly pivoted back to thanking
Speaker 2: people and back to welcoming the people who had voted
Speaker 2: for my opponents into the fold.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is the early twenty tens and gay
Speaker 1: marriage is not yet legal, but you're the first gay
Speaker 1: mayor of a major city in America. Were there any
Speaker 1: weird things that were happening to you that you think
Speaker 1: maybe weren't happening to other mayors?
Speaker 2: As Mayor of Houston, I could not extend my benefits,
Speaker 2: my insurance benefits, my pension, any of those things to
Speaker 2: the first Lady of Houston. And even after we were
Speaker 2: married legally in another state, I could not extend benefits
Speaker 2: until the Supreme Court and their o Bergerfeld decision granted
Speaker 2: equal marriage rights. So seventeen and a half years full
Speaker 2: time public service and I was a second class citizen
Speaker 2: to every one of my straight colleagues.
Speaker 1: In twenty fourteen, Mayor and niece Parker managed to pass
Speaker 1: a signature piece of equal rights legislation. It was called
Speaker 1: the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance or HERO. It guaranteed protections
Speaker 1: against discrimination for minorities ranging from veterans to pregnant women.
Speaker 1: Most of those groups were already protected under federal law,
Speaker 1: but Mayor Parker's legislation extended it to one group that
Speaker 1: didn't have any federal protections, LGBTQ people. But she was
Speaker 1: up against fierce resistance. Opponents of the law, which included
Speaker 1: several religious groups, took issues with protections for transgender people specifically,
Speaker 1: and once the law passed, they sued in hopes of
Speaker 1: repealing it.
Speaker 2: No one had any protections, so we were putting African
Speaker 2: Americans and immigrants and you know, women and people with
Speaker 2: disabilities because this would allow a local ordinance for the
Speaker 2: first time to protect them also. And I thought, you know,
Speaker 2: it's not going to be about my community. It's not
Speaker 2: going to be about the algeb. It's going to be
Speaker 2: about doing the right thing for all of Houston. And
Speaker 2: then we passed the ordinance and the only thing that
Speaker 2: the anti groups were focused on was trans rites And
Speaker 2: in fact, the organizers of the resistance actually came to
Speaker 2: city Council before we passed the ordinance and said in
Speaker 2: chamber on camera, if you will remove all trans protections,
Speaker 2: we will allow the ordinance to go forward. No, that's
Speaker 2: not how this is gonna work. We're not gonna throw
Speaker 2: one group under the bus. This is an ordinance for everyone.
Speaker 2: And then the anti folks organized a petition drive to
Speaker 2: repeal it, and the State Supreme Court said something to
Speaker 2: the effect, city you need to either repeal it or
Speaker 2: put it on the ballot for a vote. We refuse
Speaker 2: to repeal it, and so we went to a vote,
Speaker 2: the Hero vote us napel Rights ordinances. The Hero vote
Speaker 2: was the first real public vote on something after the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court ruled on marriage that year, and it was
Speaker 2: fueled by national money. It was essentially a national outpoorting
Speaker 2: of anger from the right about a whole lot of
Speaker 2: changes that were happening socially, and this was a place
Speaker 2: where they could dig into it. And interesting fact, you know,
Speaker 2: they were running ads about little girls being raped in
Speaker 2: bathrooms by straight people going into women's bathrooms. All they
Speaker 2: cared about was those images of you know, a little
Speaker 2: girl being assaulted in a bathroom. That I mean, horrible commercial.
Speaker 2: And it went down in defeat.
Speaker 1: What did that feel like personally for you to lose
Speaker 1: that battle?
Speaker 2: And I was hurt and angry and frustrated. I took
Speaker 2: it very personally. And the Hero Ordinance vote, this was
Speaker 2: after I had already been again elected nine times by
Speaker 2: these same people who turned around and said, yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: you're hey, we love you as mayor, but you shouldn't
Speaker 2: have civil rights protections.
Speaker 1: Due to term limits, mayor a niece, Parker couldn't run
Speaker 1: for a fourth term, so in twenty sixteen, she finished
Speaker 1: her term and became the president of what is now
Speaker 1: called the LGBTQ Victory Fund, a political organization with the
Speaker 1: mission of electing LGBTQ people to public office at every level.
Speaker 1: She announced this year that after leading the Victory Fund
Speaker 1: for seven years, she was going to step down. According
Speaker 1: to their annual report, Mayor Parker helped nearly triple the
Speaker 1: amount of queer elected officials across the United States, from
Speaker 1: mayors to congress people to governors. But her victory is
Speaker 1: there were inspired by one of her biggest losses, the
Speaker 1: Equality Ordinance. How did that loss, which seems like it
Speaker 1: was a profound loss for you, how did that really
Speaker 1: shape you?
Speaker 2: It reinforced to me the importance of individuals standing up
Speaker 2: and speaking out. And so I took the high and
Speaker 2: the low and decided that what I needed to do
Speaker 2: next was go back to my roots and become an
Speaker 2: activist again, which is essentially what I've done through the
Speaker 2: LGBTQ Victory Fund and Victory Institute, and that is helping
Speaker 2: other people navigate the political process so they can be
Speaker 2: in the room where decisions are made. But also, you know,
Speaker 2: even even a losing campaign, when when an out person
Speaker 2: somewhere across the country stands up and says, this is
Speaker 2: who I am. I want to serve you. This is
Speaker 2: the issue. These are the issues I want to work on,
Speaker 2: whether they're successful as a candidate or not. They're changing
Speaker 2: hearts in minds, and the fact that the opposition is
Speaker 2: getting more and more ugly and virulent. It's just a
Speaker 2: factor of our success. If we weren't, if we weren't winning,
Speaker 2: if we weren't changing hearts and minds, folks on the
Speaker 2: hard right would not be coming at us.
Speaker 1: You're about to step down from the LGBTQ Victory Fund
Speaker 1: after leading it for several years, and it feels like
Speaker 1: that's an intentional decision to make way for a new
Speaker 1: generation of LGBTQ leaders. And this show is about passing
Speaker 1: down thing from one generation of queer people to the next.
Speaker 1: And so what do you hope to pass down to
Speaker 1: the next generation of queer leaders that are fighting for
Speaker 1: equality just as you've done almost your whole life.
Speaker 2: What I am leaving is a strong and vibrant organization
Speaker 2: that is still very relevant to what's happening politically today.
Speaker 2: And the advice I would offer to my successor is that,
Speaker 2: unfortunately lgbt rights are under attack in ways that they
Speaker 2: haven't been in decades. Do not fall into the trap
Speaker 2: of saying those people we have to write off. Those
Speaker 2: people are still our There are still our parents, our
Speaker 2: brothers and sisters, our cousins, our family members. We have
Speaker 2: to stay in and remind them that the soh they
Speaker 2: attack us, one we're going to persevere, and two we're
Speaker 2: going to win in the end. But they have to
Speaker 2: see us as full human beings, and the only way
Speaker 2: they do that is by us being out and visible
Speaker 2: and present in front of them.
Speaker 1: Why do you think it's important for queer people and
Speaker 1: queer young people to get involved in politics? And this
Speaker 1: is after you've had a really decorated career in politics.
Speaker 2: Just because you don't care about politics doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: politics doesn't care about you. It doesn't influence your life.
Speaker 2: And we have not just a responsibility or a right,
Speaker 2: we have an obligation to be involved in that. Unless
Speaker 2: you have someone in the room where a decision is
Speaker 2: actually made and put on paper and made into law,
Speaker 2: you have nothing. And we have to be in a
Speaker 2: position we, those of us who are lgbt have to
Speaker 2: be in those rooms. Democracy is better and stronger and
Speaker 2: functions wholly when everyone is represented, and that includes the
Speaker 2: LGBTQ community, and I don't want to be talked about.
Speaker 2: I want to be spoken with, and so when I
Speaker 2: am in the room, they have to speak with me.
Speaker 1: I just want to say, it's just amazing to meet you.
Speaker 1: You I think have shaped so much of my own life.
Speaker 1: My father and mother were I honestly think you were
Speaker 1: probably one of the first gay people they ever saw
Speaker 1: in public life, and I think to see someone so
Speaker 1: poised and accomplished it sort of in a way way
Speaker 1: years later, prepared them to think, oh, wow, like I
Speaker 1: think my son could could be someone like that one day.
Speaker 2: Now. When I first became a council member, I heard from,
Speaker 2: you know, gay folks in city government. I would get
Speaker 2: on an elevator in city Hall and someone would jump
Speaker 2: on the elevator with me and they would whisper to
Speaker 2: me that they were okay tow and they really appreciated
Speaker 2: me being there. When I became mayor, I started hearing
Speaker 2: from parents that my success gave them a different image
Speaker 2: of what was possible for their children. And I had
Speaker 2: a lot of parents say that that I gave them
Speaker 2: them hope, and that is that is one of the
Speaker 2: best things to take away from my time in als.
Speaker 1: But we Loved is hosted by me Jordan Gonsolves. New
Speaker 1: episodes drop every Wednesday. If you want to write in
Speaker 1: to tell your story, email us at but Weloved at
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Speaker 1: of The Outspoken Podcast Network and iHeart Podcasts. But We
Speaker 1: Loved was originally developed with Pushkin Industries. Our producers Areshena Ozaki,
Speaker 1: Michael June, Emily Meronoff, and Joey patt Our. Executive producers
Speaker 1: are Me Maya Howard. Fact checking by Marisa Brown. Original
Speaker 1: music by Steve Bone. Special thanks to Jay Bronson and
Speaker 1: Rock kel Willis. If you loved this episode, leave us
Speaker 1: a rating and follow us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify,
Speaker 1: and thank you for listening. I'll see you next week.